April 14, 2025 • 37 mins
Deedra Mager and Megan Hall bring 40 years of combined ministry experience to this powerful conversation about inner healing, authentic leadership, and the freedom that comes through vulnerability. As directors of Dauntless Grace, they've made it their mission to help women connect with meaningful stories—including their own.
What exactly is "Dauntless Grace"? It's the courage to step into an authentic relationship by removing the layers of self-protection we've accumulated throughout life. Our conversation explores how we naturally develop coping mechanisms during childhood to protect ourselves from pain, rejection, and disconnection. While necessary for survival, these same mechanisms often keep us trapped in cycles that prevent true connection with ourselves, others, and God.
The most fascinating insight might be how fear functions in our lives. Fear itself isn't negative—it's designed to protect us—but unchecked fear disconnects us from ourselves and others. Deidre and Megan share practical approaches to getting curious about our fears rather than being controlled by them, a skill that transforms not just personal relationships but communities.
We dive deep into their work with human trafficking survivors through Eden's Glory, a two-year residential program. You'll be shocked to learn that 93% of trafficking victims in the US are American citizens, typically exploited by people they already know—not strangers in foreign countries as movies often portray. Their comprehensive approach to healing addresses physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual needs, embodying their core belief that "freed people free people."
Whether in formal ministry or seeking more authentic relationships, this conversation offers practical wisdom for your journey. The path to meaningful leadership begins with inner healing, and that journey starts with dauntless grace—the courage to be seen, known, and loved for who you truly are.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Tilted Halo.
This is a new podcast and it'sfor anybody who's a woman in
ministry.
You might be a pastor likemyself, a bishop, a priest, a
rabbi, music minister, elderchildren's minister whatever
your title is, you're absolutelyin the right place, especially
if you're someone who loves yourministry and you're doing it
(00:24):
well and you're feeling pressureto sometimes be perfect and
deep down inside, you knowyou're not, and how in the world
to deal with that?
And men, you're absolutelywelcome here too, because this
is about ministry and the samething can happen to you.
So you're all in the rightplace.
Let's get started with the show.
(00:45):
Welcome to another episode ofthe Tilted Halo.
I'm your host, pastor KathleenPanning, and today it's my great
honor to have with me twoguests.
This is the first time doingthis with two guests.
Deidre Magher and Megan Hall arethe directors of Dauntless
(01:09):
Grace.
Together, they have over 40years of experience in working
with women, children and youngadults in various forms of
church and school ministries.
Deidre has led the dance, dramaand worship departments in her
home church and now serves asthe program director in a
residential home for survivorsof trafficking, and Megan spent
(01:33):
a decade in youth ministry andeducation and now works in donor
development.
The two women run a nonprofitto help connect women to a
meaningful story throughretreats, workshops and their
podcast called the DauntlessGrace Exchange.
So, deidre and Megan, welcometo the Tilted Halo, Thank you.
(01:57):
I met you, deidre, throughLinkedIn, which is an
interesting place for me to meetnew people, and I thoroughly
enjoy doing that, and we had areally wonderful conversation
and you shared some of yourstory, so would the two of you
(02:18):
please share this?
Each of you share a little bitof your own story and how you
came to where you are right now,and so I'm just going to flip a
coin and, deidre, you can start.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Okay, yes, thank you for having us.
We are so excited to have thisconversation.
And just, I guess I started as avery young believer because my
parents started a church when Iwas three years old, so I just
grew up in church culture, grewup serving in the church.
As my bio said, I kind of did alot of different things youth
(02:54):
leader, worship team leader,worked in the office, worked in
our Christian school for a time,and throughout those seasons
the Lord was drawing me into acloser and closer relationship
with him.
But one of the things thatreally impacted my life was when
we begin to get some Christiancounseling tools, and so that
(03:15):
began to put me on a quest formore internal healing so that I
could be more integrated in myapproach to how I served others
and served the Lord.
Over time, my husband and Ihave been married I think 26
years now.
We have five children, done alot of learning about how to
(03:39):
shepherd souls of my ownchildren.
We have an adopted child, afoster child, so just learned a
lot about trauma personally andhow to understand why we do the
things we do and how our livedexperience shapes who we are
today.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
So, megan, how about sharing some of your story?
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Absolutely.
I grew up in the church notquite to the extent that Deidre
did, but very involved in myyouth group in high school,
became a youth leader myselfonce I was in college, did youth
ministry for about 10 yearspost high school and began
working as a teacher.
I taught in both public schoolsand then at private schools,
and that's actually where Deidreand I met was.
(04:22):
I began working as a middleschool and high school teacher
at the school that her parentshad started and where she was an
administrator.
So that's where our pathsintersected.
And I was in my early, wellmid-20s, mid to late 20s at that
point and I was reallysearching for some inner healing
tools myself.
I knew that things couldn'tkeep going the way they were
(04:45):
going.
I was married, I had a smallchild at the time, now I have
two children and I just knewthere was something I was
missing.
I knew Jesus, I was in ministry, totally immersed, and yet
something didn't feel quiteright, and so I found out that
Deidre had encountered some ofthese tools herself, these
Christian counseling tools, andI asked her if we could begin
meeting about them, and thatstarted a friendship that has
(05:08):
spanned 13 years now, and we'vejourneyed together through these
tools.
We've discovered new toolstogether, like the Enneagram,
internal family systems, therapy, and it's what led us into
starting this ministry in orderto impart the tools and the
lessons that we've learned sothat others can reach that same
level of healing and freedomthat we've tasted.
That's fantastic.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
That's really fantastic.
So, as women with faith and infaith, this podcast is for women
of faith and leadership.
How do you incorporate each ofyou, your faith, into your
leadership, and what does thatmean to you for your leadership
(05:50):
that you have this faith?
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Jesus said you know, the first and greatest
commandment is to love God withall your heart, soul and
strength, and the second is,like into it, to love others.
And what we've come to find iswe tend to, just as natural
people, love others through ourdefense mechanisms.
We're trying to do our best tolove others well, but we have
(06:14):
learned a lot of layers ofself-protection growing up,
because the world isn't aperfect place and whether we've
endured severe trauma or we'vehad fairly decent parents, we
all have some levels ofdysfunction in the way that we
relate to others.
And, again, not all levels areequal, but they all still form
from self-protection.
(06:34):
And so I think we really don'tknow how to love others well
until we learn what it means toexperience the love of God for
ourselves and the internaltransformation that can happen
where we can love all the partsof ourselves.
So we have choice, we haveagency around how we move into
(06:55):
the world in love and we'reresponding to their needs and we
are moving with compassiontoward them instead of a
self-protective posture to saveour own lives first, if that
makes sense.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Yeah, that's a great perspective, especially the idea
that we can choose, which isone thing.
That a great thing that Ilearned along the way as well
that, no matter what, we havechoices as to how we respond,
and that frees us to be able todecide.
(07:34):
You know, maybe some of theways we've responded in the past
aren't so great, Maybe theydon't get us what we really want
and they're not really ashelpful as we thought they might
be.
So that's a beautiful thing tothink about.
Megan, what about you?
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Yeah, I mean, that's exactly our stance on it.
I look back at all of the yearsthat I worked with teens in
youth ministry and as a schoolteacher and you know, I think I
did the best that I could withwhat I knew.
But sometimes those choicesdon't really come until you have
a certain level of awarenessabout what you're already doing.
It doesn't feel like choiceuntil you understand what it is
(08:12):
that you're doing and thatthere's another choice.
And so sometimes I wish I couldgo back to those years of
impacting teenagers and do itbetter, do it differently, and
not be so worried about how Iwas coming across or what I
needed or what I was thinkingabout, but really, really how to
pour myself out for others intheir journey.
(08:34):
And so, again, we do the bestwe can with what we know, but
that's why we think it's soimportant to learn and to grow
and to really look internally.
You know, in the Psalms it sayssearch me and know me, and if
that isn't our constant crythroughout our life, then I
think we're always missing thenext level of healing that the
Lord has for us.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Yeah, and, deidre, you mentioned that what Jesus
called the second greatcommandment love your neighbor,
as yourself and many people Ihave found have a lot of trouble
really loving themselves.
And I mean your podcast iscalled and you're talking about
(09:12):
being dauntless grace and to beable to realize that at any
given moment we are doing thebest we can with the beliefs and
that we have at that moment andsometimes they're not the
greatest set of beliefs thatwe're working with, um but to
(09:34):
then like for you yeah, you didthe best you could with what you
knew back then and to trustingGod to take even that sometimes
we call them crumbs and makesomething beautiful and let that
be nourishing to someone,because it's it will help
(09:56):
someone with where they are andto trust that, but to still want
to grow and learn more.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
You mentioned the word dauntless, and part of the
reason we chose that is becauseit is a little scary to step
into a new story and to receivelove in a way.
That is, you know, adam and Eve,when they sent in the garden
they cloaked up, they covered upreally quickly, and that is our
natural reaction, because ofshame, because we, through
(10:29):
whatever our parents, fall theworld's, fall all of the things
right.
It's a broken world we live in,we, just we.
We hold these beliefs aboutourselves, like you said, that
are not always true and pure andright, but they're the stories
we had to tell ourselves tofigure out how to survive
childhood in a lot of ways, andso we wear a lot of big leaves
for lack of a better analogyhere that cover our shame, you
(10:53):
know.
And so how do we fully receivethe grace and love that God has
for us?
It's scary because we have tobe seen and we have to be known
and we have to be willing to dothat work, to look at ourselves
too.
And so we do say it takes adauntless grace, it takes a it's
a scary step into somethingthat mean revealing myself
(11:16):
somewhere, not to the wholeworld.
We don't have to go, you know,everywhere, completely uncovered
, but with the lord, withourselves and maybe with a few
trusted people in our community,where we can really begin to
bear our soul and understandthat we were wired for love.
We were wired for true,authentic connection, without
all of these layers between us.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Yeah, and that, realizing that you know we're
wired to survive, yes, but we'realso wired for community,
because part of Genesis tells usyou know that it's not.
We are not designed to be solopeople out there, solo creatures
(11:59):
.
I mean, some of us are morecomfortable with time alone than
others, but still, none of usworks well in this life just
totally on our own.
We're not.
We live in a country where it'sthis, still this pioneer spirit
(12:21):
of me, myself and I, I can dothis, and as we grow up, it's me
, me, me, me as little kids attimes, and we need to get that
independence.
Yes, but there's a drawback tothat as well.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
So, Megan, yeah, yeah , if you go to our website, we
actually we created a videoseveral years ago that tries to
explain the message of what wemean by dauntless grace, and
it's it's.
It's the story of a woman whojust repeats the same cycle over
and over in her life Because,like Deidre said, we learn
coping mechanisms, we learn howto survive when we're little,
(13:00):
and we need those things becauserejection is painful and
disconnection is painful and allof the things that we
experience are painful, and sowe learn how to wire up and so
that we don't experience pain.
That's a natural defense thatwe're given and that is good and
right, and yet we're little, sowe don't always know
cognitively how to use it forour best interest, just to get
(13:22):
to the next day.
And so, at some point in ourlife, those coping mechanisms
keep us repeating the samecycles and we keep getting to
the end of it going.
Why am I still getting here?
Why am I still feelingdisconnected?
Why do I feel rejected all thetime?
Why do I always feel like animposter, whatever that is for
somebody?
But the truth is where we needthe connection, we need
(13:43):
belonging, we need security, weneed all of these things that
God put in us as holy and goodand right desires, but when
we're just trying to get themourselves, we keep cycling back
through this, and so that's thedauntless grace to step into.
What does it look like, then,to get out of the
self-sabotaging story and reallymove into the one that the Lord
has for us?
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Yeah, there's two levels to this, as I'm thinking,
you know.
There's the level for ourselvesand how to grow as individuals,
but then there's also how do weembrace others in a bigger,
wider community?
(14:24):
And I'm just reading part ofPaul's letter to the Ephesians,
the second chapter, where hetalks about the unity that we
get in Christ and transcendingthe division that Jewish people
knew between circumcised anduncircumcised, the things that
(14:47):
was a dividing wall for Jewishpeople the dietary laws and
things like that that separatedthem from others and that was
good for their identity as aJewish person but it also kept
people more than at arm'sdistance and that in Christ that
(15:12):
breaks down and we becomeneither Jew nor Greek, slave,
nor free male nor female.
You know all of those differentthings and yet as a society we
have such a terribly difficulttime with that.
And how does Dauntless Gracetouch on any of that in what you
do?
Speaker 2 (15:33):
Yeah, yeah, well, I'm going to say one, though like
well, just that, if our injuryas an individual and all these
coping skills that we get comefrom being in relationship,
healing is only going to come inrelationships.
So community is so important,because it's where we're going
(15:55):
to reverse some of these cyclesand where we're going to sense
that I can be authentically meand not feel rejection or
whatever those stories are thatwe need to repair.
But I'll let you go, megan.
I'm thinking you're maybe goingto talk about internal family
systems and getting curious, butI am.
I have a lot of words about thisdisconnect that I mean, like
(16:15):
you said yeah, it's in the earlychurch and it can be
extrapolated into today'ssociety, for sure and that is
that fear disconnects us.
It disconnects us withinourselves, it disconnects us
from other people.
Fear but fear was wired to keepus safe, like fear is a neutral
emotion and if we didn't havefear, we would have been eaten
(16:35):
alive by animals, you know.
So we need fear and also weneed to recognize that at some
point it doesn't serve us theway we think it serves us,
because it disconnects us.
And so that's where we reallylook at internal family systems,
which is a therapy model thatis about how we're all made up
of all of these parts, and so wecan recognize that fear is a
part of us and we can thank itfor doing its job of protecting
(16:58):
us.
But we can also get curious andthink am I safe?
Am I really in danger here?
What are you scared of?
Is it a fear that is logical?
Is it a fear because you're inimminent danger?
Is it a fear because you'veexperienced rejection before?
Are you layered up?
Are you self-protecting?
And so getting curious aboutthat fear is what's going to be
(17:20):
able to let it kind of rest andsettle a little bit, because
fear is the thing that keeps usapart from others and it's the
thing that is dividing our wholecountry into two camps or, you
know, depending on the issue,maybe more camps, but it's
because we're not curious aboutthe other person's side.
We're not curious.
What are they afraid of?
I can find, maybe, what I'mafraid of.
(17:40):
What are afraid of?
Is it something that I canspeak to?
Is it something that I can movetoward them in?
Speaker 1 (17:46):
so it's the stuff that we're doing internally
needs to be the stuff that we'redoing externally as well yeah,
yeah, that's so true, and Ithink that, as women of faith
and leadership in this time andday and age, that message can
bring healing and it can bringsome of the unity that we talk
(18:11):
about, that we want, but, on theother hand, that there are
people who use fear to divideand conquer and as a tool for
power, whatever, and so to beable to see that and to
(18:31):
recognize what's at play when wehave those fears, are they
really rational?
What is it that the people weretold to be afraid of?
What can they really do to us?
You know what is really goingon here.
So that might be a role that wedon't always embrace as quickly
(18:55):
and easily and as fully asmaybe we are called to do at
times.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
I think part of loving others is that idea that
unity doesn't mean we have tobelieve the same thing, but it
means I can stand arm in armwith you in our humanity and
understand that you're comingfrom a different place than I'm
coming from and have somecompassion on that position,
even if we don't come to thesame conclusion about how to
(19:24):
move forward in it.
Right, and so sometimes maybein a church, we just divide just
the church alone.
Let's take the rest of thecountry out of it.
How many denominational splitsdo we have within even a
denomination?
Not so much of all thedenominations, right?
We see that, that we cannot beif we're not, you know, aligned
on everything, that we're not inunity.
(19:44):
And I just feel like that'salso something that we could
redefine a bit that we can beone body and have different
roles and different functions,and that means we're going to
move through the worlddifferently and that's another
image that the apostle paul uses.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
you know the the different parts of the human
body, that we are different, wehave different gifts and we have
different things to bring tothe table, but there is a unity
even amongst the differences.
And to be able to recognizethat and to celebrate that the
different perspectives, tocelebrate that the different
perspectives, and I think it'sjust so important.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
You know, I don't want to get into a political
conversation at all, but tothink that I mean living in
community is politicalregardless, right, I mean,
that's what politics is.
It's just living in communitywith other people.
Same thing in churches, exactly.
So I think it is reallyimportant to know and to
recognize are the voices thatwe're listening to intentionally
stirring fear for control andpower, or are they stir, are
(20:45):
they trying to stir unity?
And so, whether that's socialmedia people that we follow,
whether that's politicians,whether that's news media and,
honestly, both sides know how tomanipulate news fear.
So it's not even this side orthis side, it's.
Who are the people whose voiceswe're letting into our sphere,
and is it stirring fear or is itstirring unity?
Speaker 1 (21:07):
right, right, I I want to get to a little bit,
just kind of change the subjecta bit.
But um, deidre you work with,especially now in your nonprofit
, for both of you is workingwith women who have been
involved in trafficking and thatgive us some idea for listeners
(21:29):
about what that's all about.
I mean, I think everybody knowswhat trafficking is, but how
big of a problem is this andwhat happens?
How does a woman get suckedinto that?
What are some of the issuesthey face and how you help them?
Speaker 2 (21:52):
Yeah, well, there's a lot of statistics that I don't
necessarily have off the top ofmy head, but it is a huge
problem in the United States andwith the most recent study just
from this last year, it was thefirst time they'd done a survey
since COVID-19.
So it's really recent data,megan.
Do you remember was it onlylike 3% of the problem was from
(22:13):
non-American 7%?
So we know that traffickinggoes really unreported.
Uh, for several reasons.
One, because they're stillinvolved in it.
Two, because even after theyleave it they may not recognize
what it is for themselves.
I know deidre's encounteredwomen who have even come to the
(22:35):
home to as survivors, who arelike, oh, I was being trafficked
, like it's kind of a newawareness for them.
They don't even know it.
So the number of actualreported cases is fairly low
because it just goes unreported.
But we know that 93 percent ofall cases in the US last year
were American citizens.
They were being traffickedacross the border or anything
like that happening in ourcommunities and I think that
(22:58):
will be shocking.
I guess we go ahead, we seemovies like Taken or like Sound
of Freedom and while thosestories can be true, they were
based on true stories.
You know, things do happenwhere people are taken into it.
More often than not, what weare seeing in the work we're
(23:21):
doing, and what most of thepeople on the front line are
encountering is people who werealready at risk because of
familial abuse, incest andmolestation, sexual abuse as
minors, and very often it's anintimate partner or even a
family member who who beginsthis for someone, and so that's
(23:42):
why it's hard to record, becausethey it would be one thing if
you were just in a really greathome and you were just stolen
away and then someone rescuedyou and and that's a really like
glamorized, and that glamorizedthat's a terrible word, but
that's a.
That's a way that we thinkabout it when we think about
being trafficked, and that's aneasy one to label, but often
what we're seeing is peopledon't even understand that their
(24:03):
body, because it's beencommodified for so much of their
life, is being used for sale,for exchange of money, drugs,
labor, housing, whatever it is,and so, um, we just have really
the law enforcement has evenreally broadened the definition
of this, and so, basically, whenit comes down to it though, it
(24:26):
is that, whether it's labor orsex trafficking or anything in
that way, it's that you are notbeing paid, you are being traded
for something and it's forced.
There's coercion involved andfraud, and so people are being
promised something but they'renot being given that or they
(24:46):
don't have agency to leave whenthey want to leave.
There's often very hand in handwith physical abuse that keeps
someone scared to leave, orthreats of violence against
their family or other things.
Maybe they're holding all theirdocumentation.
So even if they could run, thenthey don't have what they need.
You know, to start a new life.
Just so many facets of it thatmake it a huge problem to tackle
(25:10):
for sure.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
Wow, go ahead, megan.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
Yeah, and you know when it's happening with minors.
It's often they're sleeping intheir own beds that night.
They're going home at nightbecause they're not like Deidre
said, they're not being stolen.
They're being trafficked by amom, a neighbor, maybe an
intimate partner, and so peoplearound them don't recognize the
(25:33):
signs either, because they'renot necessarily runaways.
They're sleeping in their ownbeds every single night.
They're coming back home andyet their bodies are being used
for that.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
How much secrecy is involved with this, because I
know often when there's sexualabuse within a home incest and
things like that there's a lotof secrecy that goes with that.
Is that true also withtrafficking when it's not sexual
and even when it is?
Speaker 2 (26:05):
I imagine, yes, there's a lot of control by the
trafficker to isolate people sothat they can't talk right To
hold, like I said, threats ofviolence over them, can't talk
right to hold, like I said,threats of violence over them to
punish them in ways that arevery inhumane, to keep them from
(26:25):
speaking or sharing.
And there's a lot of you knowwe have.
We talk a lot with ourresidents about trauma bonds.
Sometimes it does start with aperson who's promising you
something and there can be kindof this love bombing stage where
you get all these gifts andmoney and a promise of this life
and it sucks you into adysfunctional cycle, the same
that we would see an intimatepartner violence.
(26:47):
You know why do people stay?
It's because there are thatperson is not always evil and
there are some moments of truewhat feels like love and what
feels like safety.
But it goes through cycleswhere the violence is encoded in
that and it can really keeppeople stuck because they really
think maybe there's something Ican do to change this, maybe
(27:09):
there's something I'm doingwrong that's making this, you
know, punishment for me ormaking them get angry at me.
Maybe if I could just fill inthe blank, then this situation
would change.
And it's important to note thata lot of times drugs and
alcohol are involved, becausepeople want to numb their pain
or control someone else, andthat can also really strip
(27:30):
agency from someone.
So that's a big part of thestory too in a lot of these
cases.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Yeah, and that's what I was going to say.
So yeah, we've heard storiesabout women who have been in the
commercial sex industry, and sowhen you think about that
sometimes you think, oh well,women are choosing to be part of
that industry.
Then they're grown up, theyknow what they're getting into,
they're choosing to be part ofthat.
And yet we've heard the storiesthat they were being, their
finances were being withheld orthey were addicted and being fed
(28:02):
drugs and so they didn't havethe wherewithal to know what was
happening to them, or lots ofreasons.
They think there's no otheroption.
So that that line betweenagency and coercion is very,
very, very, very thin in thecommercial sex industry.
And so this is kind of a wildexample.
But my daughter and I went tosee Les Miserables a few weeks
ago and there's that whole sceneat the beginning with Fantine,
(28:27):
I believe, and the prostitution.
And what happened is she isviolated outside, she loses her
job, she has a small child totake care of, and so she sees no
other option but to become aprostitute.
And so even that culture ofthat that I was like that's
trafficking to me, like becausethere's not really a choice
(28:47):
there, there's zero option whenthere's no finances, when you've
already been violated and youthink there's nothing left to
lose, and so just even thatpicture of it, I think, should
repaint how we think of thecommercial sex industry.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
Yeah, that's so interesting.
So when someone comes to youfrom a situation of being
trafficked, do they come to you?
Do you kind of find them?
How does that happen?
Do you kind of find them how?
Speaker 2 (29:20):
does that happen?
Yeah well, we are part of kindof a big picture solution.
We do a lot of education on thefront end for minors and for
our communities, but then we area two-year residential program,
so we're not front lines on therescuing end of it.
There's other organizationsthat are more of the like a 30
(29:42):
day like.
They're right there wheresomeone can find them, get into
their home and get triaged untilthey can find a long-term
placement.
So we are the long-termplacement in the organization
that we work for, which wehaven't said the name, but it's
Eden's Glory, and I know ifwe're going to promote it we
might as well, because we loveto talk about the work that
they're doing and we're just soprivileged to be part of their
(30:03):
ministry.
That was founded about 10 yearsago, I believe.
So it's been an inpatient, I'msorry, a residential program.
That's two years for survivorsthat are female and adult.
But we have a minor programthat offers free counseling to
minors who have been traffickedor are at risk.
(30:23):
Maybe they're in foster careand have had sexual abuse.
So we are really coming aroundthose families and resourcing
them and they go into schoolsand do trainings in hospitals
and law enforcement, all ofthese places where people need
to know what they're looking forand how to spot these signs and
how to intervene sooner.
But yeah, when people come toour residential program, they're
(30:45):
usually coming from some otherfrontline worker that has
brought them in, and then we getresourced from all over the
country.
A lot of times people need toleave the area that they were in
anyway, so it's good if theycan move out of state to find a
long-term solution.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
Wow.
From what I do know about theissue which is pretty small at
this point in time, but I knowthat it's a bigger concern than
most people think I've been inairport in the last year or two
and in women's restrooms there'ssigns in every stall.
(31:26):
You know if someone is forcingyou, here's a phone number to
call and things like that.
So there are ways to help womenfind another choice and things
like that.
So, as some of the frontlineones and I'm glad to know that
there are more, or at least afew long-term ones, because just
(31:51):
getting out of the circumstanceisn't, I mean there's a lot of
healing that needs to take placeisn't.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
I mean, there's a lot of healing that needs to take
place If we don't attend totheir long-term healing and
restoration and just gettingthem the life skills they need
to be able to live independently.
You know, there's just so manythings, both from a physical
we're giving them lots ofmedical care that they might
need and the life skills portionand the spiritual healing and
the mental and emotional healthhealing and the trauma therapy.
(32:20):
It's kind of a really holisticapproach because it's like when
someone comes out of prison, ifthey don't have somewhere to
live, right the recindity Idon't think I said that word
right the rate of them goingback in is higher than if they
have a support system to go to.
And so we're kind of we want tobe that support system Right.
And I was just looking at the2023 human trafficking stats the
(32:42):
other day and noticed that overhalf of like over 50% of all
survivors deal with greatdepression and anxiety after
being rescued and 12% attempt orcommit suicide as a result of
that anxiety and panic attack.
So the longevity of life forsurvivors is not great, and so
(33:04):
having homes like this where wecan offer that kind of healing
and you know the reason we bothare so passionate about Eden's
Glory not just because we workthere, but we work there because
we're passionate about the workthat they do.
Dauntless Grace and Eden's Gloryhave partnered together for
years and years now because weboth organizations believe that
freed people free people.
And so, on the Dauntless Graceside, when we can impart the
(33:27):
tools for healing to women whohave endured, you know, probably
not surviving trafficking, butsome sort of little T traumas in
their lives, then the more theycan pour out on other people.
And so when we are doing thesame thing on the Eden's Glory
side and pouring into the livesof people who have endured the
big T traumas, then we'resetting them up to not just
(33:49):
remain, you know, as healedindividuals, but maybe then they
can turn around and pour someout eventually.
And so healed people, healedpeople, freed people, free
people.
And that's why we are sopassionate about the work.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
Right.
Often the biggest pains that weendure, the traumas, can really
become a source of ministry andhealing for somebody else, if
we can get through the healingprocess and doing that as well.
Please tell people how they canget in touch with you, where
(34:22):
they can find the DauntlessGrace.
Exchange some of thosemechanics so that they can learn
more if they would like to.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
Yeah, dauntless Grace is.
We're on all social media.
Facebook, it's just facebookcomslash.
Dauntlessgrace ordauntlessgraceorg links to our
podcast.
It links to our socials and ithas information about who we are
, what we do and how to stayconnected.
The Dauntless Grace Exchange isour podcast.
(34:52):
It's available on all podcastapps so you can search that or
link there from our website.
And then Eden's Glory is foundat edensgloryorg and again you
can search that or link therefrom our website.
And then Eden's Glory is foundat edensgloryorg.
And again you can find all oftheir socials there and any
interviews they've done,fundraisers coming up, how to
partner with them in any way,shape or form.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
Well, thank you both.
So, Deidre, megan, you're doinga lot of really good things as
women of faith in leadership andI really appreciate you being
here to share some of your storyand as a way to maybe inspire
some others about ways to useyour faith in healing of other
(35:37):
people, of yourself, but also ofother people and of the world
at large in larger ways.
And it's amazing what oneperson can do, how many ripples
that can have out into the world.
So one person touches one, whotouches another, who touches
another.
So it can, you know.
(35:58):
Sometimes we think, well, whatcan I do?
I'm just one person.
Well, every one of us can dosomething.
And I go back to think you know,jesus had 12 disciples and look
where Christianity is today.
So you know, it's it.
It starts with us, it doesn'tend with us and God's grace
working through us, thatdauntless grace.
(36:20):
So thank you both so very much.
And for people to get in touchwith me, just look at things on
my website andKathleenAPanningcom and come
back again for another episodeof the Tilted Halo.
So God's peace and blessing toboth you, deidre and Megan, and
(36:57):
to all episode, and catchanother upcoming episode for
more conversation on ministry,life mindset and a whole lot
more.
Go to wwwtiltedhalohelpcom,where I've got a resource guide
and other resources waiting foryou, and be sure to say hi to me
, kathleen Panning, on LinkedIn.
(37:18):
See you on the next episode.
Welcome to the Tilted Halo.
This is a new podcast and it'sfor anybody who's a woman in
ministry.
You might be a pastor likemyself, a bishop, a priest, a
rabbi, music minister, elderchildren's minister whatever
your title is, you're absolutelyin the right place, especially
if you're someone who loves yourministry and you're doing it
(00:24):
well and you're feeling pressureto sometimes be perfect and
deep down inside, you knowyou're not, and how in the world
to deal with that?
And men, you're absolutelywelcome here too, because this
is about ministry and the samething can happen to you.
So you're all in the rightplace.
Let's get started with the show.
(00:45):
Welcome to another episode ofthe Tilted Halo.
I'm your host, pastor KathleenPanning, and today it's my great
honor to have with me twoguests.
This is the first time doingthis with two guests.
Deidre Magher and Megan Hall arethe directors of Dauntless
(01:09):
Grace.
Together, they have over 40years of experience in working
with women, children and youngadults in various forms of
church and school ministries.
Deidre has led the dance, dramaand worship departments in her
home church and now serves asthe program director in a
residential home for survivorsof trafficking, and Megan spent
(01:33):
a decade in youth ministry andeducation and now works in donor
development.
The two women run a nonprofitto help connect women to a
meaningful story throughretreats, workshops and their
podcast called the DauntlessGrace Exchange.
So, deidre and Megan, welcometo the Tilted Halo, Thank you.
(01:57):
I met you, deidre, throughLinkedIn, which is an
interesting place for me to meetnew people, and I thoroughly
enjoy doing that, and we had areally wonderful conversation
and you shared some of yourstory, so would the two of you
(02:18):
please share this?
Each of you share a little bitof your own story and how you
came to where you are right now,and so I'm just going to flip a
coin and, deidre, you can start.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Okay, yes, thank you for having us.
We are so excited to have thisconversation.
And just, I guess I started as avery young believer because my
parents started a church when Iwas three years old, so I just
grew up in church culture, grewup serving in the church.
As my bio said, I kind of did alot of different things youth
(02:54):
leader, worship team leader,worked in the office, worked in
our Christian school for a time,and throughout those seasons
the Lord was drawing me into acloser and closer relationship
with him.
But one of the things thatreally impacted my life was when
we begin to get some Christiancounseling tools, and so that
(03:15):
began to put me on a quest formore internal healing so that I
could be more integrated in myapproach to how I served others
and served the Lord.
Over time, my husband and Ihave been married I think 26
years now.
We have five children, done alot of learning about how to
(03:39):
shepherd souls of my ownchildren.
We have an adopted child, afoster child, so just learned a
lot about trauma personally andhow to understand why we do the
things we do and how our livedexperience shapes who we are
today.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
So, megan, how about sharing some of your story?
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Absolutely.
I grew up in the church notquite to the extent that Deidre
did, but very involved in myyouth group in high school,
became a youth leader myselfonce I was in college, did youth
ministry for about 10 yearspost high school and began
working as a teacher.
I taught in both public schoolsand then at private schools,
and that's actually where Deidreand I met was.
(04:22):
I began working as a middleschool and high school teacher
at the school that her parentshad started and where she was an
administrator.
So that's where our pathsintersected.
And I was in my early, wellmid-20s, mid to late 20s at that
point and I was reallysearching for some inner healing
tools myself.
I knew that things couldn'tkeep going the way they were
(04:45):
going.
I was married, I had a smallchild at the time, now I have
two children and I just knewthere was something I was
missing.
I knew Jesus, I was in ministry, totally immersed, and yet
something didn't feel quiteright, and so I found out that
Deidre had encountered some ofthese tools herself, these
Christian counseling tools, andI asked her if we could begin
meeting about them, and thatstarted a friendship that has
(05:08):
spanned 13 years now, and we'vejourneyed together through these
tools.
We've discovered new toolstogether, like the Enneagram,
internal family systems, therapy, and it's what led us into
starting this ministry in orderto impart the tools and the
lessons that we've learned sothat others can reach that same
level of healing and freedomthat we've tasted.
That's fantastic.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
That's really fantastic.
So, as women with faith and infaith, this podcast is for women
of faith and leadership.
How do you incorporate each ofyou, your faith, into your
leadership, and what does thatmean to you for your leadership
(05:50):
that you have this faith?
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Jesus said you know, the first and greatest
commandment is to love God withall your heart, soul and
strength, and the second is,like into it, to love others.
And what we've come to find iswe tend to, just as natural
people, love others through ourdefense mechanisms.
We're trying to do our best tolove others well, but we have
(06:14):
learned a lot of layers ofself-protection growing up,
because the world isn't aperfect place and whether we've
endured severe trauma or we'vehad fairly decent parents, we
all have some levels ofdysfunction in the way that we
relate to others.
And, again, not all levels areequal, but they all still form
from self-protection.
(06:34):
And so I think we really don'tknow how to love others well
until we learn what it means toexperience the love of God for
ourselves and the internaltransformation that can happen
where we can love all the partsof ourselves.
So we have choice, we haveagency around how we move into
(06:55):
the world in love and we'reresponding to their needs and we
are moving with compassiontoward them instead of a
self-protective posture to saveour own lives first, if that
makes sense.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Yeah, that's a great perspective, especially the idea
that we can choose, which isone thing.
That a great thing that Ilearned along the way as well
that, no matter what, we havechoices as to how we respond,
and that frees us to be able todecide.
(07:34):
You know, maybe some of theways we've responded in the past
aren't so great, Maybe theydon't get us what we really want
and they're not really ashelpful as we thought they might
be.
So that's a beautiful thing tothink about.
Megan, what about you?
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Yeah, I mean, that's exactly our stance on it.
I look back at all of the yearsthat I worked with teens in
youth ministry and as a schoolteacher and you know, I think I
did the best that I could withwhat I knew.
But sometimes those choicesdon't really come until you have
a certain level of awarenessabout what you're already doing.
It doesn't feel like choiceuntil you understand what it is
(08:12):
that you're doing and thatthere's another choice.
And so sometimes I wish I couldgo back to those years of
impacting teenagers and do itbetter, do it differently, and
not be so worried about how Iwas coming across or what I
needed or what I was thinkingabout, but really, really how to
pour myself out for others intheir journey.
(08:34):
And so, again, we do the bestwe can with what we know, but
that's why we think it's soimportant to learn and to grow
and to really look internally.
You know, in the Psalms it sayssearch me and know me, and if
that isn't our constant crythroughout our life, then I
think we're always missing thenext level of healing that the
Lord has for us.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Yeah, and, deidre, you mentioned that what Jesus
called the second greatcommandment love your neighbor,
as yourself and many people Ihave found have a lot of trouble
really loving themselves.
And I mean your podcast iscalled and you're talking about
(09:12):
being dauntless grace and to beable to realize that at any
given moment we are doing thebest we can with the beliefs and
that we have at that moment andsometimes they're not the
greatest set of beliefs thatwe're working with, um but to
(09:34):
then like for you yeah, you didthe best you could with what you
knew back then and to trustingGod to take even that sometimes
we call them crumbs and makesomething beautiful and let that
be nourishing to someone,because it's it will help
(09:56):
someone with where they are andto trust that, but to still want
to grow and learn more.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
You mentioned the word dauntless, and part of the
reason we chose that is becauseit is a little scary to step
into a new story and to receivelove in a way.
That is, you know, adam and Eve,when they sent in the garden
they cloaked up, they covered upreally quickly, and that is our
natural reaction, because ofshame, because we, through
(10:29):
whatever our parents, fall theworld's, fall all of the things
right.
It's a broken world we live in,we, just we.
We hold these beliefs aboutourselves, like you said, that
are not always true and pure andright, but they're the stories
we had to tell ourselves tofigure out how to survive
childhood in a lot of ways, andso we wear a lot of big leaves
for lack of a better analogyhere that cover our shame, you
(10:53):
know.
And so how do we fully receivethe grace and love that God has
for us?
It's scary because we have tobe seen and we have to be known
and we have to be willing to dothat work, to look at ourselves
too.
And so we do say it takes adauntless grace, it takes a it's
a scary step into somethingthat mean revealing myself
(11:16):
somewhere, not to the wholeworld.
We don't have to go, you know,everywhere, completely uncovered
, but with the lord, withourselves and maybe with a few
trusted people in our community,where we can really begin to
bear our soul and understandthat we were wired for love.
We were wired for true,authentic connection, without
all of these layers between us.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Yeah, and that, realizing that you know we're
wired to survive, yes, but we'realso wired for community,
because part of Genesis tells usyou know that it's not.
We are not designed to be solopeople out there, solo creatures
(11:59):
.
I mean, some of us are morecomfortable with time alone than
others, but still, none of usworks well in this life just
totally on our own.
We're not.
We live in a country where it'sthis, still this pioneer spirit
(12:21):
of me, myself and I, I can dothis, and as we grow up, it's me
, me, me, me as little kids attimes, and we need to get that
independence.
Yes, but there's a drawback tothat as well.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
So, Megan, yeah, yeah , if you go to our website, we
actually we created a videoseveral years ago that tries to
explain the message of what wemean by dauntless grace, and
it's it's.
It's the story of a woman whojust repeats the same cycle over
and over in her life Because,like Deidre said, we learn
coping mechanisms, we learn howto survive when we're little,
(13:00):
and we need those things becauserejection is painful and
disconnection is painful and allof the things that we
experience are painful, and sowe learn how to wire up and so
that we don't experience pain.
That's a natural defense thatwe're given and that is good and
right, and yet we're little, sowe don't always know
cognitively how to use it forour best interest, just to get
(13:22):
to the next day.
And so, at some point in ourlife, those coping mechanisms
keep us repeating the samecycles and we keep getting to
the end of it going.
Why am I still getting here?
Why am I still feelingdisconnected?
Why do I feel rejected all thetime?
Why do I always feel like animposter, whatever that is for
somebody?
But the truth is where we needthe connection, we need
(13:43):
belonging, we need security, weneed all of these things that
God put in us as holy and goodand right desires, but when
we're just trying to get themourselves, we keep cycling back
through this, and so that's thedauntless grace to step into.
What does it look like, then,to get out of the
self-sabotaging story and reallymove into the one that the Lord
has for us?
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Yeah, there's two levels to this, as I'm thinking,
you know.
There's the level for ourselvesand how to grow as individuals,
but then there's also how do weembrace others in a bigger,
wider community?
(14:24):
And I'm just reading part ofPaul's letter to the Ephesians,
the second chapter, where hetalks about the unity that we
get in Christ and transcendingthe division that Jewish people
knew between circumcised anduncircumcised, the things that
(14:47):
was a dividing wall for Jewishpeople the dietary laws and
things like that that separatedthem from others and that was
good for their identity as aJewish person but it also kept
people more than at arm'sdistance and that in Christ that
(15:12):
breaks down and we becomeneither Jew nor Greek, slave,
nor free male nor female.
You know all of those differentthings and yet as a society we
have such a terribly difficulttime with that.
And how does Dauntless Gracetouch on any of that in what you
do?
Speaker 2 (15:33):
Yeah, yeah, well, I'm going to say one, though like
well, just that, if our injuryas an individual and all these
coping skills that we get comefrom being in relationship,
healing is only going to come inrelationships.
So community is so important,because it's where we're going
(15:55):
to reverse some of these cyclesand where we're going to sense
that I can be authentically meand not feel rejection or
whatever those stories are thatwe need to repair.
But I'll let you go, megan.
I'm thinking you're maybe goingto talk about internal family
systems and getting curious, butI am.
I have a lot of words about thisdisconnect that I mean, like
(16:15):
you said yeah, it's in the earlychurch and it can be
extrapolated into today'ssociety, for sure and that is
that fear disconnects us.
It disconnects us withinourselves, it disconnects us
from other people.
Fear but fear was wired to keepus safe, like fear is a neutral
emotion and if we didn't havefear, we would have been eaten
(16:35):
alive by animals, you know.
So we need fear and also weneed to recognize that at some
point it doesn't serve us theway we think it serves us,
because it disconnects us.
And so that's where we reallylook at internal family systems,
which is a therapy model thatis about how we're all made up
of all of these parts, and so wecan recognize that fear is a
part of us and we can thank itfor doing its job of protecting
(16:58):
us.
But we can also get curious andthink am I safe?
Am I really in danger here?
What are you scared of?
Is it a fear that is logical?
Is it a fear because you're inimminent danger?
Is it a fear because you'veexperienced rejection before?
Are you layered up?
Are you self-protecting?
And so getting curious aboutthat fear is what's going to be
(17:20):
able to let it kind of rest andsettle a little bit, because
fear is the thing that keeps usapart from others and it's the
thing that is dividing our wholecountry into two camps or, you
know, depending on the issue,maybe more camps, but it's
because we're not curious aboutthe other person's side.
We're not curious.
What are they afraid of?
I can find, maybe, what I'mafraid of.
(17:40):
What are afraid of?
Is it something that I canspeak to?
Is it something that I can movetoward them in?
Speaker 1 (17:46):
so it's the stuff that we're doing internally
needs to be the stuff that we'redoing externally as well yeah,
yeah, that's so true, and Ithink that, as women of faith
and leadership in this time andday and age, that message can
bring healing and it can bringsome of the unity that we talk
(18:11):
about, that we want, but, on theother hand, that there are
people who use fear to divideand conquer and as a tool for
power, whatever, and so to beable to see that and to
(18:31):
recognize what's at play when wehave those fears, are they
really rational?
What is it that the people weretold to be afraid of?
What can they really do to us?
You know what is really goingon here.
So that might be a role that wedon't always embrace as quickly
(18:55):
and easily and as fully asmaybe we are called to do at
times.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
I think part of loving others is that idea that
unity doesn't mean we have tobelieve the same thing, but it
means I can stand arm in armwith you in our humanity and
understand that you're comingfrom a different place than I'm
coming from and have somecompassion on that position,
even if we don't come to thesame conclusion about how to
(19:24):
move forward in it.
Right, and so sometimes maybein a church, we just divide just
the church alone.
Let's take the rest of thecountry out of it.
How many denominational splitsdo we have within even a
denomination?
Not so much of all thedenominations, right?
We see that, that we cannot beif we're not, you know, aligned
on everything, that we're not inunity.
(19:44):
And I just feel like that'salso something that we could
redefine a bit that we can beone body and have different
roles and different functions,and that means we're going to
move through the worlddifferently and that's another
image that the apostle paul uses.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
you know the the different parts of the human
body, that we are different, wehave different gifts and we have
different things to bring tothe table, but there is a unity
even amongst the differences.
And to be able to recognizethat and to celebrate that the
different perspectives, tocelebrate that the different
perspectives, and I think it'sjust so important.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
You know, I don't want to get into a political
conversation at all, but tothink that I mean living in
community is politicalregardless, right, I mean,
that's what politics is.
It's just living in communitywith other people.
Same thing in churches, exactly.
So I think it is reallyimportant to know and to
recognize are the voices thatwe're listening to intentionally
stirring fear for control andpower, or are they stir, are
(20:45):
they trying to stir unity?
And so, whether that's socialmedia people that we follow,
whether that's politicians,whether that's news media and,
honestly, both sides know how tomanipulate news fear.
So it's not even this side orthis side, it's.
Who are the people whose voiceswe're letting into our sphere,
and is it stirring fear or is itstirring unity?
Speaker 1 (21:07):
right, right, I I want to get to a little bit,
just kind of change the subjecta bit.
But um, deidre you work with,especially now in your nonprofit
, for both of you is workingwith women who have been
involved in trafficking and thatgive us some idea for listeners
(21:29):
about what that's all about.
I mean, I think everybody knowswhat trafficking is, but how
big of a problem is this andwhat happens?
How does a woman get suckedinto that?
What are some of the issuesthey face and how you help them?
Speaker 2 (21:52):
Yeah, well, there's a lot of statistics that I don't
necessarily have off the top ofmy head, but it is a huge
problem in the United States andwith the most recent study just
from this last year, it was thefirst time they'd done a survey
since COVID-19.
So it's really recent data,megan.
Do you remember was it onlylike 3% of the problem was from
(22:13):
non-American 7%?
So we know that traffickinggoes really unreported.
Uh, for several reasons.
One, because they're stillinvolved in it.
Two, because even after theyleave it they may not recognize
what it is for themselves.
I know deidre's encounteredwomen who have even come to the
(22:35):
home to as survivors, who arelike, oh, I was being trafficked
, like it's kind of a newawareness for them.
They don't even know it.
So the number of actualreported cases is fairly low
because it just goes unreported.
But we know that 93 percent ofall cases in the US last year
were American citizens.
They were being traffickedacross the border or anything
like that happening in ourcommunities and I think that
(22:58):
will be shocking.
I guess we go ahead, we seemovies like Taken or like Sound
of Freedom and while thosestories can be true, they were
based on true stories.
You know, things do happenwhere people are taken into it.
More often than not, what weare seeing in the work we're
(23:21):
doing, and what most of thepeople on the front line are
encountering is people who werealready at risk because of
familial abuse, incest andmolestation, sexual abuse as
minors, and very often it's anintimate partner or even a
family member who who beginsthis for someone, and so that's
(23:42):
why it's hard to record, becausethey it would be one thing if
you were just in a really greathome and you were just stolen
away and then someone rescuedyou and and that's a really like
glamorized, and that glamorizedthat's a terrible word, but
that's a.
That's a way that we thinkabout it when we think about
being trafficked, and that's aneasy one to label, but often
what we're seeing is peopledon't even understand that their
(24:03):
body, because it's beencommodified for so much of their
life, is being used for sale,for exchange of money, drugs,
labor, housing, whatever it is,and so, um, we just have really
the law enforcement has evenreally broadened the definition
of this, and so, basically, whenit comes down to it though, it
(24:26):
is that, whether it's labor orsex trafficking or anything in
that way, it's that you are notbeing paid, you are being traded
for something and it's forced.
There's coercion involved andfraud, and so people are being
promised something but they'renot being given that or they
(24:46):
don't have agency to leave whenthey want to leave.
There's often very hand in handwith physical abuse that keeps
someone scared to leave, orthreats of violence against
their family or other things.
Maybe they're holding all theirdocumentation.
So even if they could run, thenthey don't have what they need.
You know, to start a new life.
Just so many facets of it thatmake it a huge problem to tackle
(25:10):
for sure.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
Wow, go ahead, megan.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
Yeah, and you know when it's happening with minors.
It's often they're sleeping intheir own beds that night.
They're going home at nightbecause they're not like Deidre
said, they're not being stolen.
They're being trafficked by amom, a neighbor, maybe an
intimate partner, and so peoplearound them don't recognize the
(25:33):
signs either, because they'renot necessarily runaways.
They're sleeping in their ownbeds every single night.
They're coming back home andyet their bodies are being used
for that.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
How much secrecy is involved with this, because I
know often when there's sexualabuse within a home incest and
things like that there's a lotof secrecy that goes with that.
Is that true also withtrafficking when it's not sexual
and even when it is?
Speaker 2 (26:05):
I imagine, yes, there's a lot of control by the
trafficker to isolate people sothat they can't talk right To
hold, like I said, threats ofviolence over them, can't talk
right to hold, like I said,threats of violence over them to
punish them in ways that arevery inhumane, to keep them from
(26:25):
speaking or sharing.
And there's a lot of you knowwe have.
We talk a lot with ourresidents about trauma bonds.
Sometimes it does start with aperson who's promising you
something and there can be kindof this love bombing stage where
you get all these gifts andmoney and a promise of this life
and it sucks you into adysfunctional cycle, the same
that we would see an intimatepartner violence.
(26:47):
You know why do people stay?
It's because there are thatperson is not always evil and
there are some moments of truewhat feels like love and what
feels like safety.
But it goes through cycleswhere the violence is encoded in
that and it can really keeppeople stuck because they really
think maybe there's something Ican do to change this, maybe
(27:09):
there's something I'm doingwrong that's making this, you
know, punishment for me ormaking them get angry at me.
Maybe if I could just fill inthe blank, then this situation
would change.
And it's important to note thata lot of times drugs and
alcohol are involved, becausepeople want to numb their pain
or control someone else, andthat can also really strip
(27:30):
agency from someone.
So that's a big part of thestory too in a lot of these
cases.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Yeah, and that's what I was going to say.
So yeah, we've heard storiesabout women who have been in the
commercial sex industry, and sowhen you think about that
sometimes you think, oh well,women are choosing to be part of
that industry.
Then they're grown up, theyknow what they're getting into,
they're choosing to be part ofthat.
And yet we've heard the storiesthat they were being, their
finances were being withheld orthey were addicted and being fed
(28:02):
drugs and so they didn't havethe wherewithal to know what was
happening to them, or lots ofreasons.
They think there's no otheroption.
So that that line betweenagency and coercion is very,
very, very, very thin in thecommercial sex industry.
And so this is kind of a wildexample.
But my daughter and I went tosee Les Miserables a few weeks
ago and there's that whole sceneat the beginning with Fantine,
(28:27):
I believe, and the prostitution.
And what happened is she isviolated outside, she loses her
job, she has a small child totake care of, and so she sees no
other option but to become aprostitute.
And so even that culture ofthat that I was like that's
trafficking to me, like becausethere's not really a choice
(28:47):
there, there's zero option whenthere's no finances, when you've
already been violated and youthink there's nothing left to
lose, and so just even thatpicture of it, I think, should
repaint how we think of thecommercial sex industry.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
Yeah, that's so interesting.
So when someone comes to youfrom a situation of being
trafficked, do they come to you?
Do you kind of find them?
How does that happen?
Do you kind of find them how?
Speaker 2 (29:20):
does that happen?
Yeah well, we are part of kindof a big picture solution.
We do a lot of education on thefront end for minors and for
our communities, but then we area two-year residential program,
so we're not front lines on therescuing end of it.
There's other organizationsthat are more of the like a 30
(29:42):
day like.
They're right there wheresomeone can find them, get into
their home and get triaged untilthey can find a long-term
placement.
So we are the long-termplacement in the organization
that we work for, which wehaven't said the name, but it's
Eden's Glory, and I know ifwe're going to promote it we
might as well, because we loveto talk about the work that
they're doing and we're just soprivileged to be part of their
(30:03):
ministry.
That was founded about 10 yearsago, I believe.
So it's been an inpatient, I'msorry, a residential program.
That's two years for survivorsthat are female and adult.
But we have a minor programthat offers free counseling to
minors who have been traffickedor are at risk.
(30:23):
Maybe they're in foster careand have had sexual abuse.
So we are really coming aroundthose families and resourcing
them and they go into schoolsand do trainings in hospitals
and law enforcement, all ofthese places where people need
to know what they're looking forand how to spot these signs and
how to intervene sooner.
But yeah, when people come toour residential program, they're
(30:45):
usually coming from some otherfrontline worker that has
brought them in, and then we getresourced from all over the
country.
A lot of times people need toleave the area that they were in
anyway, so it's good if theycan move out of state to find a
long-term solution.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
Wow.
From what I do know about theissue which is pretty small at
this point in time, but I knowthat it's a bigger concern than
most people think I've been inairport in the last year or two
and in women's restrooms there'ssigns in every stall.
(31:26):
You know if someone is forcingyou, here's a phone number to
call and things like that.
So there are ways to help womenfind another choice and things
like that.
So, as some of the frontlineones and I'm glad to know that
there are more, or at least afew long-term ones, because just
(31:51):
getting out of the circumstanceisn't, I mean there's a lot of
healing that needs to take placeisn't.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
I mean, there's a lot of healing that needs to take
place If we don't attend totheir long-term healing and
restoration and just gettingthem the life skills they need
to be able to live independently.
You know, there's just so manythings, both from a physical
we're giving them lots ofmedical care that they might
need and the life skills portionand the spiritual healing and
the mental and emotional healthhealing and the trauma therapy.
(32:20):
It's kind of a really holisticapproach because it's like when
someone comes out of prison, ifthey don't have somewhere to
live, right the recindity Idon't think I said that word
right the rate of them goingback in is higher than if they
have a support system to go to.
And so we're kind of we want tobe that support system Right.
And I was just looking at the2023 human trafficking stats the
(32:42):
other day and noticed that overhalf of like over 50% of all
survivors deal with greatdepression and anxiety after
being rescued and 12% attempt orcommit suicide as a result of
that anxiety and panic attack.
So the longevity of life forsurvivors is not great, and so
(33:04):
having homes like this where wecan offer that kind of healing
and you know the reason we bothare so passionate about Eden's
Glory not just because we workthere, but we work there because
we're passionate about the workthat they do.
Dauntless Grace and Eden's Gloryhave partnered together for
years and years now because weboth organizations believe that
freed people free people.
And so, on the Dauntless Graceside, when we can impart the
(33:27):
tools for healing to women whohave endured, you know, probably
not surviving trafficking, butsome sort of little T traumas in
their lives, then the more theycan pour out on other people.
And so when we are doing thesame thing on the Eden's Glory
side and pouring into the livesof people who have endured the
big T traumas, then we'resetting them up to not just
(33:49):
remain, you know, as healedindividuals, but maybe then they
can turn around and pour someout eventually.
And so healed people, healedpeople, freed people, free
people.
And that's why we are sopassionate about the work.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
Right.
Often the biggest pains that weendure, the traumas, can really
become a source of ministry andhealing for somebody else, if
we can get through the healingprocess and doing that as well.
Please tell people how they canget in touch with you, where
(34:22):
they can find the DauntlessGrace.
Exchange some of thosemechanics so that they can learn
more if they would like to.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
Yeah, dauntless Grace is.
We're on all social media.
Facebook, it's just facebookcomslash.
Dauntlessgrace ordauntlessgraceorg links to our
podcast.
It links to our socials and ithas information about who we are
, what we do and how to stayconnected.
The Dauntless Grace Exchange isour podcast.
(34:52):
It's available on all podcastapps so you can search that or
link there from our website.
And then Eden's Glory is foundat edensgloryorg and again you
can search that or link therefrom our website.
And then Eden's Glory is foundat edensgloryorg.
And again you can find all oftheir socials there and any
interviews they've done,fundraisers coming up, how to
partner with them in any way,shape or form.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
Well, thank you both.
So, Deidre, megan, you're doinga lot of really good things as
women of faith in leadership andI really appreciate you being
here to share some of your storyand as a way to maybe inspire
some others about ways to useyour faith in healing of other
(35:37):
people, of yourself, but also ofother people and of the world
at large in larger ways.
And it's amazing what oneperson can do, how many ripples
that can have out into the world.
So one person touches one, whotouches another, who touches
another.
So it can, you know.
(35:58):
Sometimes we think, well, whatcan I do?
I'm just one person.
Well, every one of us can dosomething.
And I go back to think you know,jesus had 12 disciples and look
where Christianity is today.
So you know, it's it.
It starts with us, it doesn'tend with us and God's grace
working through us, thatdauntless grace.
(36:20):
So thank you both so very much.
And for people to get in touchwith me, just look at things on
my website andKathleenAPanningcom and come
back again for another episodeof the Tilted Halo.
So God's peace and blessing toboth you, deidre and Megan, and
(36:57):
to all episode, and catchanother upcoming episode for
more conversation on ministry,life mindset and a whole lot
more.
Go to wwwtiltedhalohelpcom,where I've got a resource guide
and other resources waiting foryou, and be sure to say hi to me
, kathleen Panning, on LinkedIn.
(37:18):
See you on the next episode.
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