April 28, 2025 • 30 mins
Ever found yourself staring at the ceiling at 3 AM, frustrated that you're not sleeping "like you should"? You're not alone—and surprisingly, you might not even have a problem.
Dr. Lucinda Sykes, a retired physician and mindfulness expert who directed the Meditation for Health Clinic in Toronto, joins us again to reveal fascinating truths about our natural sleep patterns. Contrary to popular belief, sleep naturally evolves as we age. After 30, we lose about 10 minutes of sleep per decade, experience more nighttime awakenings, and often shift to earlier bedtimes and wake times. These aren't disorders—they're normal biological changes.
Perhaps most fascinating is the historical context: before electric lighting, people typically experienced "segmented sleep"—sleeping for about four hours, waking for an hour or two (often for prayer or contemplation), then returning for a "second sleep." This pattern wasn't considered problematic; it was simply how humans slept for centuries. Dr. Sykes shares research showing indigenous Maori elders view nighttime awakenings as opportunities for spiritual practice rather than sleep failures—a perspective that brings peace instead of frustration.
Modern interventions like Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for Insomnia (CBTI) now recommend approaches that align with these historical patterns—getting out of bed when sleep won't come, engaging in calm activities with dim lighting, and returning when sleepiness returns. Dr. Sykes offers practical suggestions like listening to scripture readings or "sleep stories" that engage the mind gently without creating the counterproductive "sleep efforting" that actually increases stress.
The key lesson? Our attitude toward sleep may cause more problems than our actual sleep patterns. By approaching sleep with cultivation rather than achievement in mind, we can reduce unnecessary suffering and find more peace with our natural rhythms.
Go to lucindagift.com for Dr. Sykes' free "Happy Sleep Secrets" guide and discover how to nurture your sleep naturally, without medication.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Tilted Halo.
This is a new podcast and it'sfor anybody who's a woman in
ministry.
You might be a pastor likemyself, a bishop, a priest, a
rabbi, music minister, elderchildren's minister whatever
your title is.
You're absolutely in the rightplace, especially if you're
(00:21):
someone who loves your ministryand you're doing it well and
you're feeling pressure tosometimes be perfect and deep
down inside, you know you're not.
And how in the world to dealwith that?
And men, you're absolutelywelcome here too, because this
is about ministry and the samething can happen to you.
(00:41):
So you're all in the rightplace.
Let's get started with the show.
Welcome to the Tilted Halo, andI am your host, pastor Kathleen
Panning.
I am here today with awonderful guest and we're doing
either part one or part two,depending upon which one you
listen to.
First, of a conversation with DrLucinda Sykes.
(01:05):
She is a retired Canadianphysician.
A longtime teacher ofmindfulness.
She directed the Meditation forHealth Clinic in Toronto,
helping more than 6,000 patientswho were referred for medical
programs of stress reduction.
(01:25):
Since retiring from medicalpractice, dr Lucinda continues
public speaking and privatecoaching of women after 50.
Her work is based on thescience of deep, natural sleep
throughout life, especiallyhelping people reduce their need
for sleeping pills, and so theother part of this interview.
(01:49):
We talked specifically aboutsome of the new science and not
so new science about sleepingpills and the problems that can
arise from them.
But we want to talk today, drLucinda, about sleep and help us
(02:10):
understand kind of the journeyof natural sleep throughout our
lifetime.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Yes, yes, this is a fascinating topic.
Sleep changes over our lifespan.
That's what the science showsus, and, of course, most of
science is based on largepopulations of people, so an
individual can have a uniquestory, but the tendency is, for
(02:43):
example, when we are in mother'swomb much of the time we're
dreaming.
Dream sleep is very active atcertain stages of fetal life and
then, through the childhood,our sleep also evolves so that
by the time we're in our 20s,we're having well, this is what
(03:03):
sleep is about.
And then, however, sleepcontinues to evolve, and we know
that sleep tends to shorten induration.
We have shorter sleep as we getinto more mature years.
Some of the statistics are thatafter the age of 30, you lose
(03:23):
maybe 10 minutes off of youraverage sleep for each decade
that you're past 30.
So as the decades continue tomount, your sleep gets a little
shorter.
You may find that you haveincreased what we call sleep
latency.
It takes you a little whilelonger to fall asleep.
You could find that your sleepbecomes a little, shall we say,
(03:48):
fragmented.
You awaken more frequently inthe middle of the night and you
may find it takes you a littlelonger to fall back to sleep.
And many of us in the laterdecades, we start to realize
that, hey, I'm getting sleepy alittle earlier than I used to.
(04:09):
In the teens, you stayed upuntil three in the morning, but
as an older person, you tend towant to go to sleep earlier and
then, by gosh, you wake up earlyin the morning as well.
So there's a change in thetiming of your sleep and this is
(04:30):
all.
It's just nature.
It does not mean that you aresick, it does not mean that
something should be fixed, butit does mean that your mind can
get upset by this.
Yeah, you know, I had oneinterviewer say well, how can I
get myself to sleep like a baby?
That's what I want.
I want to sleep like a baby.
(04:51):
Now, aside from the fact thatbabies, they have pretty chaotic
sleep, if you have a baby athome, you know that they're
waking up a lot too.
But this idea that I think mysleep should be like this and
it's not so, there's somethingwrong.
Often, what we're dealing withis our own attitude rather than
(05:16):
a biological problem.
In other words, you do not havean illness.
You do not have an illness, anda skilled physician would be
able to listen to your tale ofyou know I'm waking up more
often or I don't sleep like Iused to.
A skilled physician couldlisten to that and maybe offer
you some of the same informationthat I'm offering you right now
(05:37):
.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
It would be more helpful if more physicians in my
experience would offer some ofthat information about the
natural patterns of sleep as weage.
I think about my own mother whois in her 90s and she complains
(06:08):
frequently that oh, I didn'tsleep much, or I didn't sleep at
all last night, I you know thatkind of thing, or having to get
up more frequently to use therestroom and um the the
interruptions of sleep.
But then I know she naps oftenduring the day and that
fragmentation of sleep feelslike somebody maybe didn't sleep
(06:29):
at all.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Yes, yes, and there's much that could be made of what
you've just said.
For example, it is common thatwe have increased sleeping in
later years, later decades.
But also one is encouraged notto increase napping.
One is encouraged not to overdothe napping because the more
(06:52):
you nap during the day, the lesssleep drive you have for the
nighttime.
So that's just a small pointthere.
In fact, more useful maybe, asyou cite your mother's so common
experience behind it all is theassumption that, hey, it's
nighttime, I should be sleeping,but in other cultures that's
(07:18):
not necessarily the viewpoint.
I found a great study publishedby researchers in New Zealand.
I came out just in 2022, Ithink the dates are on that and
they assembled two groups ofpeople.
Both were groups of senioryears over 55.
One group were of Europeanextraction that was, their
(07:43):
ethnicity, european-based orEuropean-origin New Zealanders
and the other group wereAboriginal Maori.
They were Maori.
And then there was those whowere more in the European
culture and the Maori also weresleeping less as mature adults
(08:11):
and having more fragmented sleep.
But you know, it wasn't an issue.
In fact, it was a veryinteresting study.
They were interviewing peopleabout their sleep and the Maori
were more likely to say well,this is what happens as you get
older, you don't sleep as much.
And they were interpreting itin a cultural and a spiritual
(08:32):
way and they were using thattime when they're not sleeping
at night using it for aspiritual, spiritual practice.
Okay, they interviewed a manwho was ethnic Maori, who was
making sacred carvings duringthe night, and another woman
(08:55):
took it as a call to arise andto engage in spiritual practice.
And you know, this is in ourChristian tradition as well, our
European tradition.
Uh-huh, in Western Europe, thesocial scientists tell us that
(09:16):
prior to the onset of electriclighting, you know, in the
pre-industrial years, peopletended to sleep in segments.
There would be a first sleepand then a second sleep with an
intervening hour or two.
And this was how it was.
And very interesting how peoplespent this time Many times it
(09:43):
was spent in prayer and otherdevotional activity.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Yeah, I think of some of the spiritual practices
where there are the keeping ofthe hours, as it was called, and
there are things for what mostof us consider the middle of the
night, for what most of usconsider the middle of the night
, like 3 am or something on thatorder, as a time for a
(10:08):
spiritual prayer time, andthat's really interesting to
hear that that basically fit inwith some natural sleep patterns
.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Yes, yes, and it opens up a whole new way of
viewing nighttime sleeplessness,mm-hmm, an entirely different
attitude.
And it's about the attitudeRight and awaken in the middle
of the night and the mind says Ishould be able to sleep.
What's wrong with me, I'm goingto be busy tomorrow, and so on,
and so on and so on.
(10:42):
Or one can awaken and bepresent for a period and then
maybe arise from one's bed andengage in spiritual practice,
and at a certain point you willfeel tired or sleepy again and
you return to your bed.
And this is ancient traditionin Christian practice too.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
So would it be more important to leave the bed to do
that and then come back whenyou're sleepy?
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Very, very perceptive question, kathleen.
In part, I'm influenced by atherapeutic program called
Cognitive Behavioral Therapy forInsomnia, and this is now the
gold standard approach to sleepproblems.
Forget the sleeping pills.
(11:39):
Instead, look to CBTI, as theacronym goes Cognitive
Behavioral Therapy for Insomnia.
And in that system, thatpsychotherapeutic system, when
we awaken at night, we lie therefor a few minutes, not able to
sleep, so to speak.
We're not looking at the clock,so we're never sleeping with a
(12:00):
clock staring us in the face.
We've got the clock, ifanything, looking the other
direction, and then, after aperiod of time, maybe 15 minutes
or so, we say well, it lookslike I'm not going to be
sleeping right now.
And then you get out of yourbed.
Here's what classic CBTI advisesyou arise from your bed, keep
(12:21):
the lights dim and then enterinto an activity that is restful
or relaxing, and hey, you likeit.
I have a little lady who likedto read children's books, and
I've also had ladies who foldtheir laundry or do puzzles or
you know many different calming,restful activities and then you
(12:46):
will eventually feel sleepyagain.
If it is, you know, in themiddle of the night you feel
sleepy again and you return toyour bed, and that's what was
going on in Western Europeduring those times of segmental
sleep.
That period usually lasted forabout an hour or two and, by the
way, again and again in theresearch we hear that those
(13:09):
intervening hour or two is verycalming.
In fact, some research showsthat we have a prolactin hormone
which makes us feel very calmduring that time.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
So when somebody then gets up for the day, so to
speak, do they really feelrested?
Speaker 2 (13:34):
So, again, there's going to be lots of reply to
your question.
The odds are they're going tofeel just fine.
That's what they were inWestern Europe for hundreds we
could guess thousands of years.
That was what it was like to bea human being.
You would have a first segmentof sleep, was about four hours
(13:56):
or so, and then there'd be a gap.
You're doing what you willoften, as I say, engaged in the
spiritual practice and thenthere's another period of sleep
that was called the second sleep, and then you awaken and
eventually arise into the day.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
So you're talking about a total period of time of
maybe 10 hours talking about atotal period of time of maybe 10
hours.
Well, in the later decades youmight be sleeping seven hours,
(14:38):
even six and a half hours do youget after, yes, a couple of
hours, and again, our moderntendency is to time it all.
Mm-hmm, I'm thinking just that.
The amount of sleep that mostWesterners get, which I mean
these days, if somebody gets aneight-hour night, that's pretty
(15:02):
good.
Yes, and many people it's likesix hours of time actually in
bed.
So the idea of being awake foran hour or two, it's like there
goes the rest of the night.
That's what's going on in myhead with all of it.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
So it depends if you have allowed yourself time to
sleep, or if you have just givenyourself a somewhat narrow
window for sleep.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
And then your alarm clock is going to sound at 7
o'clock and up you get.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
Yes.
So alarm clock is going tosound at seven o'clock and up
your get.
Yes.
So for those of us in thisculture which is fast-paced and
sleep is not valued perhaps asmuch, that can be part of the
stress of I'm not sleeping rightnow.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Absolutely, kathleen, and that's often what I'm
speaking to.
As I mentioned, it's aboutattitude.
You could even argue that 50%of our sleep problem is the
outcome of our attitude.
Oh yeah, and there's an optionto it.
Yeah, your question is reallypointing at the heart of
(16:29):
contemporary life.
We even have research now aboutsomething that's called sleep
procrastination.
Modern people have the habit ofputting off their bedtime.
I do that.
They just put it off, yeah, andthe researchers are showing now
that this causes them to sufferfrom sleep deprivation, because
(16:52):
, you know, they still have toget up at 7 o'clock and go to
work, and so they don't havesufficient time in which to get
all the sleep that their bodywants and needs yes and needs.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
Yeah, they are driving themselves asleep, yeah
yeah, and so part of it is ourattitude towards sleep and our
cultural expectations around howmuch work needs to get done in
a day.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
Yes, it's a good question.
Yeah, yeah, because theEuropeans at this time this is,
you know, 17th century andearlier.
It was true for everybody.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
You know, they would have a segmented sleep.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
That was the norm and that was just how people lived
yeah, there have been a fewoccasions where, uh, the power
is out in the house and, um, youknow, after the sun goes down
(18:06):
there's not a whole lot you cando, yes, and so procrastinate.
Yeah, it's like, well, might aswell go to bed, type of thing,
and that seems like what washappening before electric lights
.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
Yeah, that seems to be our biology.
There was even one researcherwho did that on purpose.
He got volunteers to go withoutlighting and watch their sleep
pattern over a few weeks, andover a few weeks they started to
have this pattern of segmentedsleep.
There would be a first sleepand then a gap and then a second
sleep.
And he's the one who discoveredthat, during that gap of an
(18:48):
hour or two, that they wereexperiencing heightened levels
of prolactin hormone andprolactin hormone, by the way,
is what hens experience whenthey're sitting on their eggs.
Prolactin hormone helps us.
We have good feelings and we'rekind of calm, and that's often
(19:09):
what we hear in the researcharound this couple of hours.
Now, of course, if your mind isbusy saying, well, this
shouldn't be happening to me, Ishould be sleeping, what am I
going to do tomorrow?
And so on and so on, you won'tbe experiencing the calm.
But, CBTI modern system now.
But maybe they've stumbled ontosomething they recommend if
(19:32):
you're not able to sleep, justget out of your bed and do
something calming and relaxingand forget this mind that's
going on about.
I should get to sleep.
I should get to sleep.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
So that's one thing.
I have something here for youraudience.
Cbti, and sleep science moregenerally, warns us against what
they call sleep effort.
Efforting trying to get tosleep has nothing to do with
sleeping.
In fact, sleep effortingdisturbs our sleep because it
(20:09):
causes stress.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
So probably I interrupted you there.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Well, it fits right in.
So probably I interrupted youthere well, it fits right in.
I was going to ask about, uh,you know, other than the get up
and do something relaxing whenyou can't sleep and you'll wake
up in the middle of the night,type of thing, what else, uh,
what?
What is another easily donething that listeners, viewers,
(20:35):
can do to help themselves,naturally without pills and
things like that, have bettersleep?
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Well, my favorite suggestion for my Christian
clients is I suggest that theyget a recording of the
scriptures being read by alovely voice, a person who's
reading the scriptures and justgiving you the scriptures.
They're not talking about thescriptures, they're not
(21:07):
analyzing it.
Instead, they're just, forexample, giving you Genesis and
you can lie there in your bed.
You don't even need to get outof bed and you can listen there
in your bed.
You don't even need to get outof bed and you can listen to the
scriptures and you do not needto be analyzing them or
interpreting them, because, hey,you can always go back tomorrow
and do that and instead you canjust feel the the flow of our
(21:29):
great tradition and then justjust revel in the in the
scriptures and the lovely voiceof the believer who is reading
the scriptures to you.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Yeah, I've also heard about people who use like white
noise or now there's greennoise and brown noise and
different things like that to doto help people sleep or sounds
of nature.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
Yes, that can be very helpful to accompany sleep,
especially if the environment isnoisy.
But if you have a time ofwakefulness, you want to engage
the mind, because often our mindis unsettling us and in part
it's saying I should be able tosleep, what's wrong?
(22:21):
And instead you give your mindsomething to experience and you
give your mind.
Well, in the general psychologythey call it a sleep story.
We put on a recording of asleep story.
You know, a lovely voice wastelling you about this trip to
(22:43):
the museum.
There are sleep stories, lotsof sleep stories.
Now you can even go online andyou will find sources for sleep
stories even on YouTube.
The problem with YouTube isyou're going to get occasionally
interrupted by an ad.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
But you know a voice that just wants to tell you
about her trip to Italy, andit's not a kind of engaging chat
about Italy, but insteadthey're saying and so I walked
on the cobblestone path down tothe church in the distance and I
entered through the doorway andthis is what I saw, and you
(23:21):
just lie there and listen tothis and you will probably
eventually fall asleep.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
And probably not want to have a lot of visual of that
, or would they want to watch itor just listen?
Speaker 2 (23:38):
you, I would not watch it at all.
I would listen, I would judgeit'll be entirely a story,
because you want the lights tobe off, even blackness, if that
doesn't disturb you or you knowdim lighting anyway, and you
want to be there in yourcomfortable bed and, uh, just
listen to the, the story and youfeel you know the narrator
(24:03):
really intends well for you andyou just bathe yourself in this
and very likely you will fall tosleep.
Let it be a lengthy sleep storya couple of hours, so if you
should happen to awaken, it'scontinuing for a while more and
(24:23):
you can just enter back into thestory and be very useful.
I've recommended this to quitea number of clients now.
But just find the narrator thatyou like, the stories that you
like and so on.
And again, if it's youtube,well, maybe you take that option
where you get rid of all theads how about that, but that's
(24:46):
so interesting to to have that I.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
I know that there are other places people can find
resources for sleep online andwith mindfulness types of things
.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
It can be communicated to you without
efforting.
Yeah, the risk is that someonewants to teach you mindfulness.
Yeah, or teach you mindfulnessso you get alert and say I'm
going to learn mindfulness.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
No, you don't want to do that at night.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
No, no, no.
Because see mindfulness.
And, for one thing, mindfulnessis not a technique, it's not a
way to get yourself to sleep,it's not a remedy.
And that's true for all ofmeditation.
If it's ascetic meditation,it's not trying to get you
someplace else, it's justreminding you that you are here
(25:39):
and it's again helping you withyour attitude.
You have the attitude ofmeditation rather than the
attitude of accomplishing a goal, because once you're trying to
accomplish a goal, then thestress comes in.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
Yeah, so interesting.
I've been in groups wherethere's a meditation being done
and something like that.
I end up sometimes fallingasleep.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
Yeah, there we go, kathleen.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Yes, it's like I wanted to do the meditation and
here I am falling asleep.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Yes, so that was what the body wanted.
So yeah, we can go with thebody, we can trust her we, yeah,
so it's.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
It's always an interesting, interesting journey
with things like that.
There's so much more here wecould talk about dr lucinda, um
and to to learn about.
So, uh, are you onlinesomewhere or where people can
hear more about you or getresources from you?
Speaker 2 (26:41):
Oh well, a basic offering I have is my PDF Happy
Sleep Secrets, and it's acollection of basic science ways
to cultivate your sleep, tocare for your sleep.
I call it like gardening.
(27:02):
I love to garden and you knowyou go into your garden and
you're not trying to fix orchange things.
You're going into the gardenand caring for her, making sure
that there's enough, you knowwater, and you cultivate
yourself and over time, themonths go by and your garden is
flourishing and Happy SleepSecrets gives you what the
(27:24):
science shows are thefoundational self-care
techniques.
Happy Sleep Secrets is availableat I made it easy,
lucindagiftcom.
So that's all.
Lucindagiftcom.
So that's all squirtedlucindagiftcom.
Take you to Happy Sleep Secrets.
If you sign up for Happy SleepSecrets, I put in the email
(27:47):
address and then you'll get someof my emails, okay, and that
will be offering thisinformation.
In fact, I do have, you know,courses and coaching programs
and so on, but that's allindicated in Happy Sleep Secrets
and my emails are not trying tosell you stuff.
My emails are offering you moreinformation, such as that we've
(28:10):
been doing in our meeting heretoday.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Well, thank you so much, Lucinda.
Gifts plural gifts no no, it'sjust one.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
Oh, lucinda gift.
The secrets are in one gift.
This day, listen the gift,singular gift giftcom.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
Yeah, that's wonderful, wonderful.
Thank you so much for this, drlucinda, and um, I'll see if we
can put up a link with the showabout, uh, your gift for both
episodes here so that people canuh find out more about
wonderful, sweet secrets andeverything and it's it's so
(28:50):
important for our own health,for the health of the people we
work with and, yeah, uh, our ownhealth, for the health of the
people we work with, and youknow our own meditation
practices and things like that.
So, thank you so much.
I know you do speaking and soif somebody is interested in
speaking, get the lucendagiftcom.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
And my email address is there and all that material.
So, the viewers, please send mean email.
I reply to every message andtell me what's on your mind and
I'll get back to you.
Okay, the pleasure of my lifenow is to offer this information
, indeed.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
So helpful.
Thank you so much, and God'speace and blessings to everyone
who is watching and to you, drLucinda, especially as well.
So wonderful to be with you.
Thank you.
You have been listening toTilted Halo with me, kathleen
Panning.
What did you think about thisepisode?
I'd really like to hear fromyou.
(29:52):
Leave me some comments, be sureto like, subscribe and share
this episode and catch anotherupcoming episode.
For more conversation onministry, life mindset and a
whole lot more, go towwwtiltedhalohelpcom, where I've
got a resource guide and otherresources waiting for you, and
(30:13):
be sure to say hi to me,kathleen Panning, on LinkedIn.
See you on the next episode.
Welcome to the Tilted Halo.
This is a new podcast and it'sfor anybody who's a woman in
ministry.
You might be a pastor likemyself, a bishop, a priest, a
rabbi, music minister, elderchildren's minister whatever
your title is.
You're absolutely in the rightplace, especially if you're
(00:21):
someone who loves your ministryand you're doing it well and
you're feeling pressure tosometimes be perfect and deep
down inside, you know you're not.
And how in the world to dealwith that?
And men, you're absolutelywelcome here too, because this
is about ministry and the samething can happen to you.
(00:41):
So you're all in the rightplace.
Let's get started with the show.
Welcome to the Tilted Halo, andI am your host, pastor Kathleen
Panning.
I am here today with awonderful guest and we're doing
either part one or part two,depending upon which one you
listen to.
First, of a conversation with DrLucinda Sykes.
(01:05):
She is a retired Canadianphysician.
A longtime teacher ofmindfulness.
She directed the Meditation forHealth Clinic in Toronto,
helping more than 6,000 patientswho were referred for medical
programs of stress reduction.
(01:25):
Since retiring from medicalpractice, dr Lucinda continues
public speaking and privatecoaching of women after 50.
Her work is based on thescience of deep, natural sleep
throughout life, especiallyhelping people reduce their need
for sleeping pills, and so theother part of this interview.
(01:49):
We talked specifically aboutsome of the new science and not
so new science about sleepingpills and the problems that can
arise from them.
But we want to talk today, drLucinda, about sleep and help us
(02:10):
understand kind of the journeyof natural sleep throughout our
lifetime.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Yes, yes, this is a fascinating topic.
Sleep changes over our lifespan.
That's what the science showsus, and, of course, most of
science is based on largepopulations of people, so an
individual can have a uniquestory, but the tendency is, for
(02:43):
example, when we are in mother'swomb much of the time we're
dreaming.
Dream sleep is very active atcertain stages of fetal life and
then, through the childhood,our sleep also evolves so that
by the time we're in our 20s,we're having well, this is what
(03:03):
sleep is about.
And then, however, sleepcontinues to evolve, and we know
that sleep tends to shorten induration.
We have shorter sleep as we getinto more mature years.
Some of the statistics are thatafter the age of 30, you lose
(03:23):
maybe 10 minutes off of youraverage sleep for each decade
that you're past 30.
So as the decades continue tomount, your sleep gets a little
shorter.
You may find that you haveincreased what we call sleep
latency.
It takes you a little whilelonger to fall asleep.
You could find that your sleepbecomes a little, shall we say,
(03:48):
fragmented.
You awaken more frequently inthe middle of the night and you
may find it takes you a littlelonger to fall back to sleep.
And many of us in the laterdecades, we start to realize
that, hey, I'm getting sleepy alittle earlier than I used to.
(04:09):
In the teens, you stayed upuntil three in the morning, but
as an older person, you tend towant to go to sleep earlier and
then, by gosh, you wake up earlyin the morning as well.
So there's a change in thetiming of your sleep and this is
(04:30):
all.
It's just nature.
It does not mean that you aresick, it does not mean that
something should be fixed, butit does mean that your mind can
get upset by this.
Yeah, you know, I had oneinterviewer say well, how can I
get myself to sleep like a baby?
That's what I want.
I want to sleep like a baby.
(04:51):
Now, aside from the fact thatbabies, they have pretty chaotic
sleep, if you have a baby athome, you know that they're
waking up a lot too.
But this idea that I think mysleep should be like this and
it's not so, there's somethingwrong.
Often, what we're dealing withis our own attitude rather than
(05:16):
a biological problem.
In other words, you do not havean illness.
You do not have an illness, anda skilled physician would be
able to listen to your tale ofyou know I'm waking up more
often or I don't sleep like Iused to.
A skilled physician couldlisten to that and maybe offer
you some of the same informationthat I'm offering you right now
(05:37):
.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
It would be more helpful if more physicians in my
experience would offer some ofthat information about the
natural patterns of sleep as weage.
I think about my own mother whois in her 90s and she complains
(06:08):
frequently that oh, I didn'tsleep much, or I didn't sleep at
all last night, I you know thatkind of thing, or having to get
up more frequently to use therestroom and um the the
interruptions of sleep.
But then I know she naps oftenduring the day and that
fragmentation of sleep feelslike somebody maybe didn't sleep
(06:29):
at all.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Yes, yes, and there's much that could be made of what
you've just said.
For example, it is common thatwe have increased sleeping in
later years, later decades.
But also one is encouraged notto increase napping.
One is encouraged not to overdothe napping because the more
(06:52):
you nap during the day, the lesssleep drive you have for the
nighttime.
So that's just a small pointthere.
In fact, more useful maybe, asyou cite your mother's so common
experience behind it all is theassumption that, hey, it's
nighttime, I should be sleeping,but in other cultures that's
(07:18):
not necessarily the viewpoint.
I found a great study publishedby researchers in New Zealand.
I came out just in 2022, Ithink the dates are on that and
they assembled two groups ofpeople.
Both were groups of senioryears over 55.
One group were of Europeanextraction that was, their
(07:43):
ethnicity, european-based orEuropean-origin New Zealanders
and the other group wereAboriginal Maori.
They were Maori.
And then there was those whowere more in the European
culture and the Maori also weresleeping less as mature adults
(08:11):
and having more fragmented sleep.
But you know, it wasn't an issue.
In fact, it was a veryinteresting study.
They were interviewing peopleabout their sleep and the Maori
were more likely to say well,this is what happens as you get
older, you don't sleep as much.
And they were interpreting itin a cultural and a spiritual
(08:32):
way and they were using thattime when they're not sleeping
at night using it for aspiritual, spiritual practice.
Okay, they interviewed a manwho was ethnic Maori, who was
making sacred carvings duringthe night, and another woman
(08:55):
took it as a call to arise andto engage in spiritual practice.
And you know, this is in ourChristian tradition as well, our
European tradition.
Uh-huh, in Western Europe, thesocial scientists tell us that
(09:16):
prior to the onset of electriclighting, you know, in the
pre-industrial years, peopletended to sleep in segments.
There would be a first sleepand then a second sleep with an
intervening hour or two.
And this was how it was.
And very interesting how peoplespent this time Many times it
(09:43):
was spent in prayer and otherdevotional activity.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Yeah, I think of some of the spiritual practices
where there are the keeping ofthe hours, as it was called, and
there are things for what mostof us consider the middle of the
night, for what most of usconsider the middle of the night
, like 3 am or something on thatorder, as a time for a
(10:08):
spiritual prayer time, andthat's really interesting to
hear that that basically fit inwith some natural sleep patterns
.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Yes, yes, and it opens up a whole new way of
viewing nighttime sleeplessness,mm-hmm, an entirely different
attitude.
And it's about the attitudeRight and awaken in the middle
of the night and the mind says Ishould be able to sleep.
What's wrong with me, I'm goingto be busy tomorrow, and so on,
and so on and so on.
(10:42):
Or one can awaken and bepresent for a period and then
maybe arise from one's bed andengage in spiritual practice,
and at a certain point you willfeel tired or sleepy again and
you return to your bed.
And this is ancient traditionin Christian practice too.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
So would it be more important to leave the bed to do
that and then come back whenyou're sleepy?
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Very, very perceptive question, kathleen.
In part, I'm influenced by atherapeutic program called
Cognitive Behavioral Therapy forInsomnia, and this is now the
gold standard approach to sleepproblems.
Forget the sleeping pills.
(11:39):
Instead, look to CBTI, as theacronym goes Cognitive
Behavioral Therapy for Insomnia.
And in that system, thatpsychotherapeutic system, when
we awaken at night, we lie therefor a few minutes, not able to
sleep, so to speak.
We're not looking at the clock,so we're never sleeping with a
(12:00):
clock staring us in the face.
We've got the clock, ifanything, looking the other
direction, and then, after aperiod of time, maybe 15 minutes
or so, we say well, it lookslike I'm not going to be
sleeping right now.
And then you get out of yourbed.
Here's what classic CBTI advisesyou arise from your bed, keep
(12:21):
the lights dim and then enterinto an activity that is restful
or relaxing, and hey, you likeit.
I have a little lady who likedto read children's books, and
I've also had ladies who foldtheir laundry or do puzzles or
you know many different calming,restful activities and then you
(12:46):
will eventually feel sleepyagain.
If it is, you know, in themiddle of the night you feel
sleepy again and you return toyour bed, and that's what was
going on in Western Europeduring those times of segmental
sleep.
That period usually lasted forabout an hour or two and, by the
way, again and again in theresearch we hear that those
(13:09):
intervening hour or two is verycalming.
In fact, some research showsthat we have a prolactin hormone
which makes us feel very calmduring that time.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
So when somebody then gets up for the day, so to
speak, do they really feelrested?
Speaker 2 (13:34):
So, again, there's going to be lots of reply to
your question.
The odds are they're going tofeel just fine.
That's what they were inWestern Europe for hundreds we
could guess thousands of years.
That was what it was like to bea human being.
You would have a first segmentof sleep, was about four hours
(13:56):
or so, and then there'd be a gap.
You're doing what you willoften, as I say, engaged in the
spiritual practice and thenthere's another period of sleep
that was called the second sleep, and then you awaken and
eventually arise into the day.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
So you're talking about a total period of time of
maybe 10 hours talking about atotal period of time of maybe 10
hours.
Well, in the later decades youmight be sleeping seven hours,
(14:38):
even six and a half hours do youget after, yes, a couple of
hours, and again, our moderntendency is to time it all.
Mm-hmm, I'm thinking just that.
The amount of sleep that mostWesterners get, which I mean
these days, if somebody gets aneight-hour night, that's pretty
(15:02):
good.
Yes, and many people it's likesix hours of time actually in
bed.
So the idea of being awake foran hour or two, it's like there
goes the rest of the night.
That's what's going on in myhead with all of it.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
So it depends if you have allowed yourself time to
sleep, or if you have just givenyourself a somewhat narrow
window for sleep.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
And then your alarm clock is going to sound at 7
o'clock and up you get.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
Yes.
So alarm clock is going tosound at seven o'clock and up
your get.
Yes.
So for those of us in thisculture which is fast-paced and
sleep is not valued perhaps asmuch, that can be part of the
stress of I'm not sleeping rightnow.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Absolutely, kathleen, and that's often what I'm
speaking to.
As I mentioned, it's aboutattitude.
You could even argue that 50%of our sleep problem is the
outcome of our attitude.
Oh yeah, and there's an optionto it.
Yeah, your question is reallypointing at the heart of
(16:29):
contemporary life.
We even have research now aboutsomething that's called sleep
procrastination.
Modern people have the habit ofputting off their bedtime.
I do that.
They just put it off, yeah, andthe researchers are showing now
that this causes them to sufferfrom sleep deprivation, because
(16:52):
, you know, they still have toget up at 7 o'clock and go to
work, and so they don't havesufficient time in which to get
all the sleep that their bodywants and needs yes and needs.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
Yeah, they are driving themselves asleep, yeah
yeah, and so part of it is ourattitude towards sleep and our
cultural expectations around howmuch work needs to get done in
a day.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
Yes, it's a good question.
Yeah, yeah, because theEuropeans at this time this is,
you know, 17th century andearlier.
It was true for everybody.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
You know, they would have a segmented sleep.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
That was the norm and that was just how people lived
yeah, there have been a fewoccasions where, uh, the power
is out in the house and, um, youknow, after the sun goes down
(18:06):
there's not a whole lot you cando, yes, and so procrastinate.
Yeah, it's like, well, might aswell go to bed, type of thing,
and that seems like what washappening before electric lights
.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
Yeah, that seems to be our biology.
There was even one researcherwho did that on purpose.
He got volunteers to go withoutlighting and watch their sleep
pattern over a few weeks, andover a few weeks they started to
have this pattern of segmentedsleep.
There would be a first sleepand then a gap and then a second
sleep.
And he's the one who discoveredthat, during that gap of an
(18:48):
hour or two, that they wereexperiencing heightened levels
of prolactin hormone andprolactin hormone, by the way,
is what hens experience whenthey're sitting on their eggs.
Prolactin hormone helps us.
We have good feelings and we'rekind of calm, and that's often
(19:09):
what we hear in the researcharound this couple of hours.
Now, of course, if your mind isbusy saying, well, this
shouldn't be happening to me, Ishould be sleeping, what am I
going to do tomorrow?
And so on and so on, you won'tbe experiencing the calm.
But, CBTI modern system now.
But maybe they've stumbled ontosomething they recommend if
(19:32):
you're not able to sleep, justget out of your bed and do
something calming and relaxingand forget this mind that's
going on about.
I should get to sleep.
I should get to sleep.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
So that's one thing.
I have something here for youraudience.
Cbti, and sleep science moregenerally, warns us against what
they call sleep effort.
Efforting trying to get tosleep has nothing to do with
sleeping.
In fact, sleep effortingdisturbs our sleep because it
(20:09):
causes stress.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
So probably I interrupted you there.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Well, it fits right in.
So probably I interrupted youthere well, it fits right in.
I was going to ask about, uh,you know, other than the get up
and do something relaxing whenyou can't sleep and you'll wake
up in the middle of the night,type of thing, what else, uh,
what?
What is another easily donething that listeners, viewers,
(20:35):
can do to help themselves,naturally without pills and
things like that, have bettersleep?
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Well, my favorite suggestion for my Christian
clients is I suggest that theyget a recording of the
scriptures being read by alovely voice, a person who's
reading the scriptures and justgiving you the scriptures.
They're not talking about thescriptures, they're not
(21:07):
analyzing it.
Instead, they're just, forexample, giving you Genesis and
you can lie there in your bed.
You don't even need to get outof bed and you can listen there
in your bed.
You don't even need to get outof bed and you can listen to the
scriptures and you do not needto be analyzing them or
interpreting them, because, hey,you can always go back tomorrow
and do that and instead you canjust feel the the flow of our
(21:29):
great tradition and then justjust revel in the in the
scriptures and the lovely voiceof the believer who is reading
the scriptures to you.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Yeah, I've also heard about people who use like white
noise or now there's greennoise and brown noise and
different things like that to doto help people sleep or sounds
of nature.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
Yes, that can be very helpful to accompany sleep,
especially if the environment isnoisy.
But if you have a time ofwakefulness, you want to engage
the mind, because often our mindis unsettling us and in part
it's saying I should be able tosleep, what's wrong?
(22:21):
And instead you give your mindsomething to experience and you
give your mind.
Well, in the general psychologythey call it a sleep story.
We put on a recording of asleep story.
You know, a lovely voice wastelling you about this trip to
(22:43):
the museum.
There are sleep stories, lotsof sleep stories.
Now you can even go online andyou will find sources for sleep
stories even on YouTube.
The problem with YouTube isyou're going to get occasionally
interrupted by an ad.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
But you know a voice that just wants to tell you
about her trip to Italy, andit's not a kind of engaging chat
about Italy, but insteadthey're saying and so I walked
on the cobblestone path down tothe church in the distance and I
entered through the doorway andthis is what I saw, and you
(23:21):
just lie there and listen tothis and you will probably
eventually fall asleep.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
And probably not want to have a lot of visual of that
, or would they want to watch itor just listen?
Speaker 2 (23:38):
you, I would not watch it at all.
I would listen, I would judgeit'll be entirely a story,
because you want the lights tobe off, even blackness, if that
doesn't disturb you or you knowdim lighting anyway, and you
want to be there in yourcomfortable bed and, uh, just
listen to the, the story and youfeel you know the narrator
(24:03):
really intends well for you andyou just bathe yourself in this
and very likely you will fall tosleep.
Let it be a lengthy sleep storya couple of hours, so if you
should happen to awaken, it'scontinuing for a while more and
(24:23):
you can just enter back into thestory and be very useful.
I've recommended this to quitea number of clients now.
But just find the narrator thatyou like, the stories that you
like and so on.
And again, if it's youtube,well, maybe you take that option
where you get rid of all theads how about that, but that's
(24:46):
so interesting to to have that I.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
I know that there are other places people can find
resources for sleep online andwith mindfulness types of things
.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
It can be communicated to you without
efforting.
Yeah, the risk is that someonewants to teach you mindfulness.
Yeah, or teach you mindfulnessso you get alert and say I'm
going to learn mindfulness.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
No, you don't want to do that at night.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
No, no, no.
Because see mindfulness.
And, for one thing, mindfulnessis not a technique, it's not a
way to get yourself to sleep,it's not a remedy.
And that's true for all ofmeditation.
If it's ascetic meditation,it's not trying to get you
someplace else, it's justreminding you that you are here
(25:39):
and it's again helping you withyour attitude.
You have the attitude ofmeditation rather than the
attitude of accomplishing a goal, because once you're trying to
accomplish a goal, then thestress comes in.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
Yeah, so interesting.
I've been in groups wherethere's a meditation being done
and something like that.
I end up sometimes fallingasleep.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
Yeah, there we go, kathleen.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Yes, it's like I wanted to do the meditation and
here I am falling asleep.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Yes, so that was what the body wanted.
So yeah, we can go with thebody, we can trust her we, yeah,
so it's.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
It's always an interesting, interesting journey
with things like that.
There's so much more here wecould talk about dr lucinda, um
and to to learn about.
So, uh, are you onlinesomewhere or where people can
hear more about you or getresources from you?
Speaker 2 (26:41):
Oh well, a basic offering I have is my PDF Happy
Sleep Secrets, and it's acollection of basic science ways
to cultivate your sleep, tocare for your sleep.
I call it like gardening.
(27:02):
I love to garden and you knowyou go into your garden and
you're not trying to fix orchange things.
You're going into the gardenand caring for her, making sure
that there's enough, you knowwater, and you cultivate
yourself and over time, themonths go by and your garden is
flourishing and Happy SleepSecrets gives you what the
(27:24):
science shows are thefoundational self-care
techniques.
Happy Sleep Secrets is availableat I made it easy,
lucindagiftcom.
So that's all.
Lucindagiftcom.
So that's all squirtedlucindagiftcom.
Take you to Happy Sleep Secrets.
If you sign up for Happy SleepSecrets, I put in the email
(27:47):
address and then you'll get someof my emails, okay, and that
will be offering thisinformation.
In fact, I do have, you know,courses and coaching programs
and so on, but that's allindicated in Happy Sleep Secrets
and my emails are not trying tosell you stuff.
My emails are offering you moreinformation, such as that we've
(28:10):
been doing in our meeting heretoday.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Well, thank you so much, Lucinda.
Gifts plural gifts no no, it'sjust one.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
Oh, lucinda gift.
The secrets are in one gift.
This day, listen the gift,singular gift giftcom.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
Yeah, that's wonderful, wonderful.
Thank you so much for this, drlucinda, and um, I'll see if we
can put up a link with the showabout, uh, your gift for both
episodes here so that people canuh find out more about
wonderful, sweet secrets andeverything and it's it's so
(28:50):
important for our own health,for the health of the people we
work with and, yeah, uh, our ownhealth, for the health of the
people we work with, and youknow our own meditation
practices and things like that.
So, thank you so much.
I know you do speaking and soif somebody is interested in
speaking, get the lucendagiftcom.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
And my email address is there and all that material.
So, the viewers, please send mean email.
I reply to every message andtell me what's on your mind and
I'll get back to you.
Okay, the pleasure of my lifenow is to offer this information
, indeed.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
So helpful.
Thank you so much, and God'speace and blessings to everyone
who is watching and to you, drLucinda, especially as well.
So wonderful to be with you.
Thank you.
You have been listening toTilted Halo with me, kathleen
Panning.
What did you think about thisepisode?
I'd really like to hear fromyou.
(29:52):
Leave me some comments, be sureto like, subscribe and share
this episode and catch anotherupcoming episode.
For more conversation onministry, life mindset and a
whole lot more, go towwwtiltedhalohelpcom, where I've
got a resource guide and otherresources waiting for you, and
(30:13):
be sure to say hi to me,kathleen Panning, on LinkedIn.
See you on the next episode.
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