A Reformation of Prayer

The catalyst for mission isn't found in strategy, resources, or technical knowledge—it's rooted in prayer. But not just any prayer. In this refreshingly honest conversation, Pastor Chris Paavola shares how his journey from worship director to church planter to established church pastor led him to a profound revelation: most Christians don't know how to pray conversationally with God.

• Prayer is the catalyst for mission and church transformation
• The Global South practices prayer with more desperation and dependency
• Scripted prayers are good but insufficient for developing a prayer culture
• The "prayers for" method creates natural, conversational prayer times
• Prayer walking transforms both churches and communities
• Most church members freeze when asked to pray publicly
• Creating systems for teaching conversational prayer is essential
• Prayer services and intercessory prayer teams build prayer culture
• Prayer reveals our desperation and need for God's intervention
• New churches reach new people, and different churches reach different people

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to the Tim Allman Podcast.
Pray, the joy of Jesus is yourstrength, as I get to talk today
with a friend I've admired fromafar and it's a joy to get to
spend time today talking aboutwell, we'll talk about a number
of different things, but we'redefinitely going to talk about
prayer.
It's Pastor Chris Pavla.
How you doing, brother?

Speaker 2 (00:20):
Man, I'm good, I'm good yeah cool.

Speaker 1 (00:26):
Well, Chris, if you don't know him, he's a pastor in
the Lutheran Church MissouriSynod.
He's at St Mark in Battle Creek, Michigan, Southwest he was
pointing on his hand.
We're at the Southwest cornerof Michigan serving at a
50-year-old congregation.
Before going to the seminary hewas a worship director.
He's been a part of churchplants and, yeah, fill in any of
the gaps there.
I mean, what kind of led youinto ministry?

(00:46):
I know kind of like myself,you've got family who have been
around the church.
Did you come kind of kickingand screaming or, like me, was
it kind of something that was inyour purview the whole way?
Tell that story.

Speaker 2 (00:56):
There was probably a kicking and screaming there,
yeah.
So my dad was a second careerpastor too, so I got to watch
him go through seminary while Iwas in middle school, high
school, and then I went topre-sum in Concordia, austin at
the time.
It's now Concordia, texas andthen I got done and I was like
you know, I think I want to bein a band and thanks for the
degree, mom and dad and so didthat for a few years.

(01:16):
But God redeems all things andI became a worship director over
the years.

Speaker 1 (01:21):
So pause right there.
Yeah, what band were you in?

Speaker 2 (01:24):
like an early Christian and I'll say if I do
that, yeah, yeah, if I do that,then everyone's going to be
Googling pictures of me.
You know from the threethousands.
We don't want that.

Speaker 1 (01:32):
So you don't even want to mention it.

Speaker 2 (01:35):
No, but yeah.
So there was a band and then,uh, actually it led to more of a
singer, songwriter kind ofthing and I did some songwriting
and you know, and withpublishing companies in
Nashville and stuff and thatkind of opened some really cool
doors too.
So but then eventually, while Iwas a worship director, got the
bug for church planting.
I found out that it's the mosteffective methodology under

(01:56):
heaven for reaching people andthat that that appealed to the
evangelist in me, you know, andeventually took the pledge, went
to seminary to be a churchplanter.

Speaker 1 (02:06):
So you entered into church planting before, like
exploring, Tell that storyBefore even going to the
seminary.

Speaker 2 (02:12):
What you were on like a church planting team of some
sort, yeah, yeah, so out ofcollege I really cut my teeth in
youth ministry at a churchplant.
That's really where I was firstexposed to it.
And then, just as I was in theministry, just kind of looking
at my gifts and you know, justkind of as you grow right and
just as God calls each of us indifferent ways going, I think I

(02:34):
think I might be a pastor, Ithink I think I'm a church
planter actually, and then so Iwent to the seminary and then
right out of seminary I planteda church in St Louis right in
the inner belt there called AllNations, and we rocked and
rolled and did the thing and itwas a blast man.
And now, after a certain seasonat the church plant, we set up

(02:58):
a constitution and board elders,all that stuff, and raised up
an SMP guy now there.
So there is now a church therewhere there wasn't one before
and we thank God for thebaptisms that happened.
But it just I started to feelthe call to move on and
especially as my family was, youknow, getting older and stuff,
and so that led me here to StMark.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:17):
That's cool.
St Louis is such a uniquecontext.
There's so many wonderfulmission opportunities there.

Speaker 2 (03:26):
I know.

Speaker 1 (03:26):
I made my friend Jeff Claytor.
Uh, amazing kind of network sowere you?
Was all nations kind ofconnected to Pathfinder or St
John's?
And I know you have someconnection to St John,
aliceville.
Yeah, yes, were there otherchurches that kind of helped you
launch that.

Speaker 2 (03:39):
Oh, a hundred percent , man.
That's one of the cool thingsabout St Louis, it's such a
network of churches.
And so I'd say you know everychurch planner you start out,
you know, when you're like, youknow, hat in hand, going to
people and asking them forfunding to help you.
You know, get your first fewyears under the way, and so all
of my relationships werenaturally through St John, now

(04:00):
Pathfinder in Ellisville, butthen along the way, man, so many
other great, great churches inthat area stepped up and you
know whether it was Concordia,kirkwood or King of Kings and
Chesterfield, just great.
And then eventually, you know, Igot connected with Bethlehem
because we were doing an innercity kind of a ministry and so
Bethlehem down there, and youknow, just yeah, so it was

(04:22):
actually a little bit of achange, you know, because my
only experience was really in StLouis, where it's you throw a
rock and hit a Lutheran churchand then you come up to Michigan
.
It's still a pretty, you know,you know large Lutheran
population up here, but it'snowhere near like, oh, you know,
23 churches in your hometownthat you can call up and hang
out with.
So yeah, that was a little bitof a learning curve for sure,

(04:44):
but um, yeah, that's the howwere you trained as a church
planner at the seminary Um wasthere?

Speaker 1 (04:49):
was there a track at that time for church planning?

Speaker 2 (04:51):
You know they don't do it anymore.
Um, I wish they did.
It was called CPAC, the churchplanner assessment center, and
that's really the last thingthat you do before you go okay,
I'm not going to do this churchplanting thing.
And when you get done with theassessment, they give you a red
light, yellow light, green light, right, and they have
experienced church planters whoare doing this assessment.
And so I remember sitting in aroom with, like Pete Mueller,

(05:13):
Greg Bursts and Ben Griffin allguys who have gone on to do
amazing things for the kingdomand they're sitting there
grilling you and asking youquestions that they know, like
you need this disposition as achurch planter.
You, you know like you've gotto have this entrepreneurial
spirit, just a relentlessoptimism and face of hardships,
and can you, you know, interactwith non-Christian people and

(05:36):
carry a conversation with themthat doesn't become hostile?
You know, and I, I, when I gotdone with the, the assessment, I
remember Ben Griffin going yeah, this is, I don't know why you
need me to tell you this God iscalling you to be a church
planner for sure, and that.
So that was really the lastthing, that that I needed before
I pulled the trigger.

Speaker 1 (05:55):
So how did can you think of that?
I'd love to hear you just saysome of the qualities that God
gave you.
I know it's hard to kind of I'mnot asking you to brag on
yourself necessarily, but youhave the entrepreneur.
If you could list the three orfour kind of qualities that
helped you plant and sustain acongregation, what were those,
Chris?

Speaker 2 (06:10):
Yeah, I think I like one of them, definitely the
entrepreneurial spirit.
You've got to have that pioneer, take the hill mentality.
Um, you know, I am alwayscoming up with ideas to start
something new, so I think churchplanners naturally have that.
And then I think there's aself-starter thing in there, for
sure, and you know these areall very secular skill sets, by

(06:33):
the way, you know like, but youknow God uses them.
And then I think I think Ialluded to earlier the optimism
in face of all of thecircumstances that suggest
otherwise.
The church I failed to mentionI'm probably going to get a text
message when this airs, but NewBeginnings Lutheran Church in

(06:53):
Pacific was really the churchthat you know helps, you know,
issued me the call to be thechurch planner, and Joe Sullivan
is an awesome church planner,but he, he always talks about,
you know, um, the uh churchplanners have to have just this
unrelenting optimism.
And he's, he's right man, uh,you do, and I think those things

(07:14):
, um, you put them all together.
Um, it's a rare skillset andthat's why, like I think church
planning is, I can't crack thecode.
You know, like, as St Markgrows, I know we're going to
plant either a satellite campusor another church and so much of
it comes down to finding theright church planter.
And that's the code I can'tcrack because it's a very rare

(07:42):
skill set to find.
And I don't say that in a kindof a kind of a self gloating
kind of a way or a boastful way,but it's true, man Like that,
that ability to have thatevangelism, the giftedness of
evangelism, talking tonon-Christians, you know, kind
of that apologetic ability tojust a conversational
apologetics, entrepreneurialspirit, plus, you know,

(08:05):
visioneering kind of a mindsetand and this optimism and the
ability to rally people together, it's, it's a lot, man, it's a
lot.
And I, I, when I'm praying aboutit for the future of our synod,
you know that's, and we'repraying for workers in the
harvest, it's just a rare skillset, man.
And then you add onto theschooling requirement
requirement that you've talkedabout on the podcast a lot.

(08:26):
You add the schoolingrequirement on top of the skill
set and it becomes harder andharder and harder for us to
continue to plant churches.
And the reason we need to isJoe Sullivan would well at this
point I say it enough that Ijust say this is what I say, but
Joe is the first guy who saidthis back in the day but more
churches reach more people, newchurches reach new people and
different churches reachdifferent people.
And if we're going to reachmore new and different, we've

(08:48):
got to keep planting churches.

Speaker 1 (08:50):
Well, I couldn't agree more.
I agree wholeheartedly thatit's so necessary to find and
empower, release, equip, theright planner.
And it's for us as Lutherans.
I mean, god works through means, right Through word, through
sacrament, through individuals,giving them unique gifts.
So it's not, it shouldn't, besurprising.

(09:12):
What are your thoughts?
Because I don't know that we'redoing, and this is probably
true in many main lines.
I don't know other main lines.
Some are growing.
By the way, the Presbyterianchurch in the usa is actually
growing.
Um, I think one of our strugglesright now as confessional
lutherans is is having a paththat looks attractive and I hate

(09:38):
to use the word attractive, butfor these guys, for these guys
that have that skill set,they're looking for something
that looks like man.
I could do it.
And right now, the restrictionson SMP and then kind of saying
residential only, like it's atough slog, like I got a whole
bunch of executive leaders in mycongregation Not every context

(10:00):
is like mine, but they're cominginto our training because it's
adaptive, it's contextual, it'sless expensive, it gives a
degree, you're staying incontext and you're connected to
your congregation and we're kindof fanning the flame.
This kind of new startmentality we're just struggling,
I think, to embrace that typeof a leader right now and I

(10:22):
don't think, I think anydenomination that is close to
200 years is going to have thiskind of adaptive change
challenge right now.
So, but it almost feels let me,I'll get your take here it
almost feels like we're againstthat type of a leader.
And I don't know, I don't haveone conversation but as because
of the less than adaptive way inwhich we're engaging the

(10:43):
entrepreneur or leader, they'realmost left to say I'm on the
outside looking in here in theLCMS and probably in many other
longstanding mainlines.
Any comment there, chris?
I know it's tough.

Speaker 2 (10:54):
No, I almost just want to agree with everything
you just said, man.
And it kind of places theemphasis on what you're trying
to do, you know, with otheravenues, to try to figure out
other avenues and ways to to getguys in the ministry.
Um, and I don't know, you know,I, when I was at seminary, I
remember, uh, president Harrison, I'm going to get, I don't want

(11:16):
to get in trouble, so I'll justkeep this very, you know, like
there's no, I'm not sayinganything, that's divulging some
kind of a private meeting, buthe took out about a dozen guys
out to get dinner after, after acall service, yeah Right, after
graduation.
And we're all sitting there andI remember telling him that
accreditation doesn't meananything to me.
You know I, I would, I would goto seminary, I.

(11:40):
You know, like, if, if Igraduated without any type of
accreditation, I don't care, Ijust want to reach people, I
just want to reach the lost.
And and uh, and it was like agasp went through the room.
I'm like why am I like ananomaly here?
I just want to, I want to beordained to be a pastor so I can
start, you know, kicking buttand taking names for the kingdom
of Jesus and like why do I needyou know some?

(12:02):
And we're kind of beholden toan accreditation process, given
you know our system and itreally is, it's the elephant in
the room and I don't know, youknow, I don't know if there's an
.
I think alternative measuresare going to continue to be
explored until we figuresomething out.
Man, yeah.

Speaker 1 (12:20):
And hopefully that's sooner, sooner than later,
because there's a lot ofchurches not just not just
churches that are declining andcould potentially raise up local
leaders.
But, like you said, it's allabout start new to reach new and
and I I'm praying for that sortof a vision in our church body
that embraces the leader, thathas the gifting the

(12:42):
entrepreneurial, superoptimistic self-starter can take
criticism, has the right levelof an apologetic bent with a
missional zeal to save some Justlook at all the descriptors
you're using and how rare thisis too, man, and it's like.

Speaker 2 (13:00):
And what I'm actually doing, you know, like, in, in,
in in my church, in my contexthere, is when I see anyone who's
got that like, I'm instantlytrying to like bring them into
some type of mentorship or bringthem into some type of.
You know, we've kind of revampedour elder model to be elders as
leaders and find that guy,because if I find that guy in

(13:23):
our midst, man, and that I cansend to go plant a church 20
minutes from here, or whateverman, it would be amazing, It'd
be the most amazing thing,because it's just so hard to
even even to think like I'm inbattle Creek.
I didn't even know where battleCreek, Michigan, was, you know,
before I took the call here,Right, and like to think that
I'm going to call somebody fromfour States away to come, and

(13:46):
you know, and like, quickly, youknow, ingrain themselves into
our community and make theseconnections that planners need
to be drawing on in order tohave a successful church plan.
Oh my gosh, it's so.
The odds are stacked againstthem and it's obvious like the
answer is raised within and, youknow, developed from within.
But you know it's again.

(14:06):
It's not easy.

Speaker 1 (14:07):
It's not easy.
All right, let's go to.
Let's go to prayer.
Pray to the Lord of the harvest.
So we should definitely prayfor more workers, but you have a
prayer ministry.
For those of you who don't know, prayforyourchurchcom is a
website that Chris started.
He's speaking on the topic ofprayer and kind of demystifying

(14:29):
prayer, making prayer accessiblenot just for the clergy, for
the ordained, but for all ofGod's people, and you're going
to get some.
You probably want to take somenotes on the conversation we're
going to have today, becausethere's going to be some ahas
for sure, as it relates to thetopic of prayer.
So tell the story about how youkind of started to have.
It seems kind of like a dumb,but how did the Lord kind of put

(14:49):
the ministry of prayer beforeyou?
Chris, tell that story.

Speaker 2 (14:53):
Yeah, I've become like a spokesman somewhat of
prayer in our church body andit's not because I got it
figured out, honestly, it'sbecause I'm willing to admit I
don't.
Everything that I havediscovered and all the growing
in prayer has started with thatrecognition that I don't have
this figured out and I need helpand I need to grow in prayer.

(15:16):
And I think that's kind of whatthe disciples were doing when
they looked at Jesus.
These are good Jewish boys, youknow.
They prayed in the synagogue,synagogue all their life.
They've seen rabbis praying inthe streets, but something about
Jesus where they were like, ohLord, teach me to pray, and
that's kind of.
You know, I, I, I I'm willingto admit that I that I'm not
there, I've gone, and you know,I'm willing to admit that I'm
not there, I've gone.

(15:37):
And you know, when I was incollege I spent a summer helping
build a church actually inAfrica and I had an opportunity
to teach English in China and Igot an opportunity to see the
underground church there andwhen I saw people in Africa or
people in China praying, I wasso humbled, bro, it just it

(15:57):
wrecked me and I was like I havegot a long way to go and um,
and so I think, yeah, I'mwilling to admit that I don't
have this figured out, andespecially when I started
planning the church, I was like,if I'm going to plan a church,
this is a God-sized thing.
I am a white guy in a blackneighborhood.
This has got to be a move ofGod.
And that sent me to prayer andgoing.

(16:19):
Ok, I got to figure this out.

Speaker 1 (16:20):
Dude, get us behind the curtain a little bit on the
global south.
What is there?
What's different about theirprayer life than than we in the
West?

Speaker 2 (16:27):
Yeah, I remember, I remember, like you know where we
were, was in Tanzania and kindof in the foothills of the
Kilimanjaro, mount Kilimanjaro,there, and there was no hospital
for probably 30 miles or so,and so when there was sickness

(16:48):
that happened in the village,there wasn't.
You know like it wasn't like oh, go grab some NyQuil, it was
like let's pray.
And it was just so pervasiveeverywhere, this constant,
constant prayer.
And then, like when they were,you know, building their, their
church, like I was talking aboutum, and they lacked materials,

(17:08):
what do we do?
Well, we kind of look at ourwallets and, okay, I'll run to
Lowe's real quick, or somethinglike that.
And they just gathered aroundand we're like, lord, we need
more lumber, we need more nails.
And I'm like, and they justgathered around and were like,
lord, we need more lumber, weneed more nails.
And I'm like this is, it wasjust everything it was, it was
in, it was saturated, everythingthey did because they had
nothing.
And I realized there's this.
I mean, if you look at secondCorinthians, one right where
Paul's talking about all thehardships and then the result is

(17:30):
so pray, and he's, and, and Irealized that it's um, that
there's so many things that I goto quicker, whether it's, you
know, technology or money, orstrategy or resources, whatever
it might be, rather than pray.
And it's the first thing, it'sthe, it's the main thing they do
, it's the last thing they do,and it's it's because they're

(17:54):
desperate.
And I realize that the formulais if we want to pray more, get
desperate.
And I'm sitting in a reallycomfortable church and what I'm
trying to always do is to makeus uncomfortable and desperate
and so that we are growing inprayer, because if we're
comfortable, that's where westop praying.

Speaker 1 (18:15):
That's so good I have .
We're in a unique context here,chris, in that I serve a pretty
affluent church, Bro, I've seenyour church.

Speaker 2 (18:23):
No, I've seen your church.
Man, you are very blessed.
There's so many churches inPhoenix right now.
I'm just looking at you guysgoing.
Oh my gosh, the resources areawesome, and same in Austin.

Speaker 1 (18:38):
It's just like you look at these growing cities and
it's just money coming out ofyour ears and to who much is
given, much is required, rightand uh, it comes with with its
own challenges, to be sure, theentitled, the consumer, you know
we're in, you know we're in the, the bible belt of the
southwest, and that there's westill have a lot of people to
reach.
I think we're only like at 15percent are churched on any
given sunday.
So but, but nonetheless, you'vegot these worthy rivals, you

(19:01):
could say, and all these big,big, well-resourced,
multi-campus, ginormousmegachurches that are worshiping
10 to 20,000 a weekend.
There's five or six of thosechurches that are around us.
And so you're like you can feel, if you play the comparison
game, you're like, oh my gosh.
You know, and we try to bedistinct.
We are distinctly Lutheran,we're liturgical, you know it's

(19:21):
contemporary and traditional.
There's still a liturgical flow, it's not just the arms race.

Speaker 2 (19:26):
Like you want to get into that arms race.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (19:29):
And so, like the consumer mentality toward youth
ministry, who's got the bestband creates the best vibe, all
that kind of stuff.
So that's on the one hand.
But then, like tonight, I'mpreaching at one of our
ministries that includes, butisn't exclusively for, the
working poor and homeless, 15minutes down the road in Tempe,
and we're going to feed 250people that are sleeping on the

(19:50):
streets tonight and so some overtime that ministry, la Mesa,
has been going for 10 years.
A number of our friends whohave maybe been in recovery or
are coming in and out ofrecovery end up calling Christ
Greenfield their home.
And one of those leaders hisname is Bob, bob's a member.
Bob has lived in a van on ourcampus.

(20:14):
He's an evangelist for hiscalling.
He does graphic design verymuch on the side just to kind of
get his daily bread met.
And then he's got maybe threeor four you know very small
donors that help him with hisministry on the streets
consistently.
And he lost one of those donors.
I'm getting to a point here.

(20:34):
He lost one of those donors theother day, for I don't know
what the reason was, and hecomes to me 730 church service
and he goes to all of ourworship services, by the way and
then often goes.
And you know he's.
The Holy Spirit is just soalive in this guy.
Guy, just like, leans in rightEvery time you're preaching.
It's very inspiring for acommunicator of the gospel.

(20:55):
And Bob goes.
Hey, pastor Tim, I lost a donor.
I don't know if I'm going to beable to keep my phone and
that's going to be hard for meon a number of you know, for a
number of reasons.
Would you pray?
And so I go.
Yeah, bob.
So we said a quick prayer.
You know that his daily breadwould be met At the end of the
1045 service he goes.
Well, just want to let you know.
The Lord answered.
I got two more folks that aregoing to come alongside to help

(21:16):
me partner.
Like it's like that, becausehe's like super living on the
edge.
Anybody else you know makingthe six, seven figure income.
You know we have the idol ofplenty.

Speaker 2 (21:29):
But Bob got desperate man Yep.

Speaker 1 (21:30):
Bob got desperate and in that lower income, lower
socioeconomic community, I praychurches want to learn with them
.
Not just go and helicopter infood and whatever.
No, no, no, but to go learnwith the poor, learn with the
other, learn with the addictwho's trying to make it the
least of loss, the lonely.

(21:50):
This is where you're going tosee the desperate nature of
prayer.
And it's just, it's how helives, it's a constant state of
prayer and dependence upon God.
When the apostle Paul says,chris, pray without ceasing, how
do you think we're supposed tounderstand that?
I think it says what it says.
Yeah, living, constantconversation and dependence upon
the other.

(22:11):
the other, uh upon God.
Praise, praise God.
So you have six questions forpraying for mission.
I was impacted by this because,man, we need to pray for more
workers.
You kind of go down who are wepraying for?
Where are we going?
I'll just jog your memories.
We got to walk through this.
So start with the who.
Who should we be praying forconsistently as leaders within

(22:32):
the church and just the everydayfollower of Jesus connected to
the mission of the local church?

Speaker 2 (22:35):
Yeah.
So when you look at like prayerand maybe kind of a backing up
even further, there's there'sthis command to pray in
scripture and so much of it isunscripted, right, and we have
scripted prayers that we shouldabsolutely pray.
I'm a I don't mind scriptedprayers.
I've got a website full ofscripted prayers that you know,

(22:57):
like in our church services andyou know scripted prayers are
fine.
But when you look at like thecommands to pray in scripture,
we have to be able to get off ofthe unscripted prayers and get
into that conversational likeunceasing mode, right.
And and when you look at, youknow what scripture calls us to
pray for.
When it comes to mission, justin mission, I mean you could run

(23:19):
a catalog of all the thingsthat scripture calls us to pray
for.
But we're called to pray forwho, like who will go for me,
pray for workers in the harvest.
We're called to pray for wherewe're going to go, the people
that God has called us to.
You're called to your community, that down there in Arizona,
I'm called to this community andI'm called to inter community
and and I'm called to intercedein behalf of this community.

(23:41):
Then we're we're called to prayfor when.
So like who, where and when,like that a doorway would open
for the gospel.
Like and we see that.
We see that in Colossians, andPaul prays like pray that a
doorway would be opened.
We're, we're, we're called topray for, like what we're going
to say.
Pray that the words are givento me, that I might declare
these mysteries.

(24:02):
You know fearlessly, as I ought, how we're called to pray for
boldness and how we pray.
And then we're called to prayfor why?
Like for them to receive thegift of faith and believe in
their hearts and confess theirlips that Jesus Christ is Lord
and that they might, you know,know the calling to which he has
called them.
And you look at all of this who, the where, the when, the how,

(24:23):
the what and the why that we'recalled to pray for.
First of all, we're called topray very specific prayers for
our community.
When we're praying only scriptedprayers, the natural default of
them is general, egg, broadbrushstrokes, general kind of
prayers, and think of all of thescripted prayers we have in the

(24:46):
LCMS man, and just the way we,the normal parishioner.
The example I use is my grandparight.
He would wake up in the morning, he would say Luther's morning
prayer and he would go to bedsaying Luther's morning prayer.
He would do the portals ofprayer Like.
I remember seeing him sittingin his chair in the living room
there looking at the portals ofprayer and then he'd read the
one sentence prayer at thebottom of the little devotional

(25:06):
right.
That's what he did.
Then we would pray before meals.
Come Lord, jesus, be our guest.
We would go to church, he, hewould pray the Lord's Prayer, he
would pray the Collect of theDay or he would pray with the
prayers of the church.
And none of these things arebad.
Scripted prayers are good.
Jesus prayed scripted prayersfrom the cross and throughout
his.
But that can't be the only kindof prayers.

(25:28):
If scripture is calling us topray specific prayers, we've got
to get off script.

Speaker 1 (25:40):
And that's where I think our church body can grow
man Well.
I 100% agree.
Look at the Apostle Paul.
He is constantly.
There are so many moments thatthey're spending like an
extraordinary amount of time.
As Paul is leaving the book ofActs I think it's later on in
the book of Acts when he's beingsent, I think, to Ephesus, they
think they're not going to seehim.
They spend so much time inprayer for him that the Lord

(26:00):
would keep him not just safe,but he would.
The mission would be multiplied, et cetera.
I mean, paul is this is anall-night preaching and prayer
service.
When the young boy falls offand dies and has to go be raised
.

Speaker 2 (26:13):
When Peter's in jail, like they're praying for a
prayer meeting, you know, or theprayer right after Pentecost,
the entire prayer written.
There isn't a scripted prayer.
Jesus praying in the upper roomthat's not a scripted prayer,
it's just a conversation, yeah100 percent and it's, it's all
over.

Speaker 1 (26:28):
Have you documented how many times the apostle Paul
mentions prayer in the epistles?

Speaker 2 (26:32):
I have not, man.
That'd be a fun little exerciseto do, for sure it, man, that'd
be a fun little exercise to do,for sure it would I, yeah, just
like, even not not.
You can do a search on the wordprayer but, like so many times,
just call on the lord, you know, like there's.
There's other phrases to usebesides prayer.

Speaker 1 (26:48):
Be interesting to find out, yeah and obviously we
have, uh, david and the psalms,right, which is as a prayer book
.
I mean, he's, he's writingthese down.
It's like you get behind thescenes of his prayer life, right
, it's his prayer journal, youcould say, and it's very poetic

(27:13):
and it's deeply rooted in whoGod is and how much he, how
dependent he is upon thepresence of God in the midst of
enemies, et cetera, coming athim.
So, yeah, the book, the Bible,is a prayer book.
It's meant to be.
It's meant to be prayed andserves as to double down on your
point to serve as a catalystfor specific prayers.
I think sometimes we look at theBible and it's in context.
So the prayers that he'sbringing for the church to grow
are for that context.
We should have the same sort ofboldness.

(27:33):
I want our East Mesa campus togrow.
I want the effect of what theULC is doing to multiply, to get
people to think outside of thebox, to raise up more local
leaders Like these are very real, real prayers.
How do you let's get into?
I love this.
Oh, before I get off, paul, Igot to drop this book Becoming
the Gospel Paul Participationand Mission.

(27:54):
This was turned on to me by DrJeff Cloa and I have Michael
Gorman, g-o-r-m-a-n Becoming theGospel.
He's got another book calledthe Cruciform Life and his main
point is that all of Paul'sletters, paul's ministry, is an

(28:17):
invitation for the church tohave what his phrase is
anticipatory participation.
It's kind of like this futurehope.
So his main point is it's allabout mission and to see the
church come alive in the missionof God.
If you read it as just atheological set of doctrines

(28:38):
that are, you know, displacedfrom context, displaced from the
indwelling Holy Spirit, you'regoing to totally miss Paul's
point.
Have you ever thought aboutPaul being I mean, I think of
him as the greatest evangelicalmodel of what it looks like to
be a follower of Jesus, tomultiply missionaries with a
heart of prayer, especiallyseeking and saving the lost?

(29:00):
I mean, I can't read Paul anyother way, but I guess some
people read him in a differentway.
Any thoughts on Paul andmission?

Speaker 2 (29:07):
and prayer.
He's not a theologiancloistered off in his ivory
tower, you know, speaking onmysteries of God.
He is not a monk, the guy youknow right.

Speaker 1 (29:15):
He's on the move, man .

Speaker 2 (29:19):
Four missionary journeys and he's with the
church for, you know, two, threeweeks, two, three months, and
he's like, all right, you guysare good, I'm going to go to
start another one, and it's just, you know, yeah, it's um, it's
hard for me to read any like.
We're going through Galatiansnow, right, as a church, like
we're going just, I don'tusually teach like an expository
style, but I'm doing it for thesake of just, you know, a

(29:39):
little bit of a change of pacefor our congregation, right,
right, so we're going throughGalatians, right, and it's all.
It's impossible to read it andnot hear, like the mission
heartbeat through all of it anda heart for the loss.
And the entire reason he writesthe letter is he's talking back
to this church plant and tryingto correct their gospel and so,
like this doctrinal, the finedoctrine that we find in
Galatians, it's all related tothe mission, though man, it's,

(30:01):
it's, it's him trying to like,continue advancing the kingdom
of God and that's, and, honestly, his calls for prayer are, are,
are missional calls for prayer,right, there's like this, this
heartbeat for the kingdom andthe lost in all of his calls for
prayer, and and and I thinkabout like the, I think about
like the.
You know, the analogy that I usesometimes is like if we're

(30:23):
writing scripted prayers andwe're only reading scripted
prayers, which every scriptedprayer at some point was not
scripted, but it'd be like inour marriage.
It'd be like in our marriagewith our wife, like we have
scripts that we go through,right, we say good morning, we
say I love you, we say goodnight, you know, or stuff like
that, pick up your shoes.
Like we have these things thatare constantly hit on.

(30:44):
But the beauty of ourrelationship is all of the
conversation that happens inbetween these scripted moments,
and that's kind of kind of howlike my prayer life has changed.
Is I?
It's okay to lean on thesescripted prayers?
They're to get the engine goingand they're they're to provide
a framework for all of the otherbeautiful conversations that
we're supposed to be having withour heavenly father.

Speaker 1 (31:05):
Yeah, for sure.
What would you say to someonewho okay, I'll tease it
something here a bit I heardthat there are some pastors who
think the Lord's prayer, becauseof the liturgy, should only be
in one of our divine servicesand I'm going to, it's the one
where it's chanted, and Iactually like chanting and I've

(31:27):
chanted it before.
But the pastor does the firstpart and then the rest of
congregation joins in.
For what?
The doxology or whatever, so ornot?
The doxology, the, the endpoint part that got added right
For thine is the kingdom.
And what do you call that?
I'm drawing a blank.

Speaker 2 (31:41):
Like the call and response.
The response no, no, no.

Speaker 1 (31:44):
At the end of the Lord's prayer, the part that for
thine is the kingdom and thepower and the glory, forever and
ever.
Amen.
Oh like the yeah, yeah, it gotadded historically.
Anyway, the rest ofcongregation kind of adds into
that refrain and so, like thepastor gets, the pastor has this
like closer, and we got to justtease this right Like the

(32:05):
pastor has this closer communionwith God.
So I'm like praying the Lord'sprayer kind of for you and or
over you, and I'm not sayingthere's anything necessarily
wrong, but I don't think whenJesus gave the apostles the
Lord's prayer, that he gave itto them and this goes all the
way to mission.
Right, who gets to be aboutmission?
Is this the pastor?
Is it the people?
Is it the priesthood?

(32:26):
Like the prayer was for theapostles as a way to kind of
orient and structure yourprayers.
But I don't think Jesus saidwhen you pray, pray like this.
I think he wants them to orientand go deeper into what does
daily bread like?

Speaker 2 (32:41):
Well, we have breaks this down.

Speaker 1 (32:42):
Right, Luther breaks it down.
Let's just go deeper into it.
Go ahead, Chris.

Speaker 2 (32:45):
Right.
No, we have other prayers thatthe apostles have written or
that the apostles have said.
Of course they didn't just praythe Lord's Prayer.
Open up Acts two, three.
Stretch out your hand toperform miracles among us.
That's not the Lord's prayer,Obviously.
We're told to pray beyond, justthe formulaic scripted stuff.

Speaker 1 (33:03):
Yeah, Good, hey.
So how do you break down?

Speaker 2 (33:06):
Here's why that's hard, though, because you ask
the average person.
If you would ask my grandpa togo ahead and pray for the
mission, pray for the church,pray, for he wouldn't know what
to say.
He wouldn't know what to saybecause because he was so
dependent on the written formthat he wouldn't know, like how
many of your, how many of yourmembers, if you would have, if

(33:27):
you asked somebody on Sunday tostand up and lead the opening
worship prayer, how many of yourmembers would absolutely freeze
if you handed them themicrophone?

Speaker 1 (33:35):
90%, and that's and we're a mission oriented church,
and still 90%, which is likecause there's something
performative about it.
Right, it's cause we put, we'vemade it, you got pastors who
get up there.

Speaker 2 (33:46):
We got to go back to Africa.
I mean, like it was so normal,it was so conversational, it was
so.
You know, like I think about,like teaching kids, like I have
young, younger kids my kids areseven, as my youngest right now
but like when they were young,younger, and you're teaching
them how to talk, you'recorrecting little phrases oh no,
it's not herded, it's just hurt.
Or he didn't hit you, he hityou, you know, or whatever.

(34:07):
I don't know why it's such aviolent example, but but like
you're, you're you're teaching achild how to speak and you're
encouraging them to repeat wordsafter you, to say phrases with
you, and but they're learninghow to form those words.
We, what we haven't done as achurch body, is the next step.
That the scripted form, whetherthat's the Lord's prayer or our

(34:29):
written prayers or script, youknow, whatever it might be is
the first step.
But the next step is, is, is islike um it beginning to put
this into your own words andhaving that conversation.
You know, like in James clear'sum atomic habits book I don't
know if you've ever read it.

Speaker 1 (34:45):
It's spectacular yeah .

Speaker 2 (34:47):
Right and we don't rise to the level of our goals,
we fall to the level of oursystems and in our church body.
When I look at the, if I'mgoing to indict the LCMS in our
prayer life, it's because oursystem is all scripted and if
we're going to teach people likethe average person in your
church to just to begin prayinga conversational prayer, we've

(35:08):
got to create a system that thatthat calls for that.
Otherwise, we're just, like youknow, hooping and hollering and
then preaching.
Third use of the law, trying toget guilt people and to do
something that they don't knowhow to do.
We've got to create a system toteach conversational prayer
again and again and againbecause, like we are not call me
crazy We've prayed the same waywe've prayed for, let's say, a

(35:31):
hundred years.
I don't think we're going toreverse the trend of the LCMS,
whether it's in churches or inour church body, by praying the
same way we've always prayed forthe last hundred years.
We need a reformation of prayer.
We have to, as a church body,become better at conversational
kinds of prayer and dude, wearen't there.
But we've got to start creatingsystems.

(35:52):
If we're going to reverse thetrend, it's got to be a move of
God.
If it's a move of God, we'vegot to become people of prayer,
Amen.

Speaker 1 (36:03):
So let's go deeper into what that system could look
like and we're not going toshud people into anything, but
this is the power of invitation.
What are some tests peoplecould run in making prayer more
accessible, more conversationalfor the everyday follower of
Jesus in their congregation?

Speaker 2 (36:15):
Yeah, man, I think well, first thing they could do
is just ask somebody to pray andwatch them freeze up, just do
your own assessment and goingyeah, we're not there yet.
Man, I think there's some real.
You know, when you look atother church bodies, there's
things that they do that arevery normalized, that I think we

(36:36):
could learn from and humbleourselves and learn from
somebody whose theology might bedifferent.
But you know a very simple Itell people often start small,
right, like you know.
Like start with your PeterJames and John and just starting
intercessory prayer on Sundaymornings, especially if I'm
talking to pastors, like find aPeter James and John, three guys

(36:57):
that could meet with you onSunday mornings and just pray,
and it's half hours.
What we do every Sunday morningin my office here, and that I
mean there's a couple of guyswho got in here that I asked to
be a part of it.
It was super intimidating forthem, but starting small gives

(37:18):
them this environment, thesystem, in order to learn that.
Uh, same thing with my eldersman, we, our elders meetings are
prayer meetings and some of theelders were really, really
uncomfortable with that.
We started doing.
We started doing intercessoryprayer after our services, which
I think is another very, verysimple thing that you can
introduce in churches um,intercessory prayer after our

(37:38):
services.
And I asked our elders to do it.
I had elders quit.
I had elders quit because theywere uncomfortable.
They were uncomfortable withpraying with people and like
that, they didn't know how to doit.
And I'm like, but you're anelder, if my elders can't do it,
we've got a problem, you know?
And but starting and juststarting with simple
intercession prayer, whetherit's interceding for you,
interceding after worship thatwill start to change the

(38:00):
temperature and you'll getpeople going.
Wait, what?
What's going on here?
What are we doing?
That's not the pastor prayingfor me, that's somebody else in
the church praying for me.
But starting small withintercession, I think is one of
the simplest things that thatchurches can start doing
intercession before service forthe pastor and then after the
service, uh, with people comeforward with prayer needs, dude

(38:23):
it it, it will get people'sattention and it will start to
change the climate in a church.

Speaker 1 (38:28):
Yeah, no, I agree.
Do you have a prayer like teamUm we have?
We have a number of people,because I think some are kind of
extraordinarily gifted,inclined toward this kind of
intercessory prayer gift.

Speaker 2 (38:45):
Say more about some people who have that gift.
You just said it.
Now it's your intercessors.
So it's kind of like, if youhave a mission board in your
church, well then those are thepeople that do mission.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
We all do mission Same thing.
If you have a prayer ministry,my hesitancy there is then right
, oh, those are the people whopray yeah, yeah, yeah
intercessors.
It's a different term.

Speaker 1 (39:05):
Yeah, okay, that's, that's interesting.
But you don't discount thatsome people may have more of a
proclivity toward intercessoryprayer.

Speaker 2 (39:13):
100 and I think scripture would support that.
Yeah, there are yeah,definitely.

Speaker 1 (39:31):
Um, and everyone could and should and should have
the invitation to pray.
Um, yeah, there areintercessors head down.
You know no one's lookingaround and you feel your heart
rate, you know starting to beat,because you don't really.
This is more of a performativepublic communication kind of an
endeavor, right?
I think that's what we need toget over is demystifying that
this is different than, like,public communication.
This is just intercession andconnection with the God of the

(39:53):
universe who always there andattentive.
We're just so judgy in ourculture.
We're just so judgmental, likeif I flip over, you know, if I
trip up over my words orwhatever, like someone's going
to oh man, that guy reallystinks at prayer, man, this guy.

Speaker 2 (40:05):
Yeah, right, right, right, and then walk with the.

Speaker 1 (40:07):
Lord is a mess, right , yeah, all of that.
But you've got some good kindof handles to kind of lead into
and out of and out of prayer.
Could you share one or two ofthose?

Speaker 2 (40:18):
Yeah, so I think this is another system that I think
a lot of churches could startdoing, and it started because I
was so frustrated.
This is a completely accidentaldiscovery, but I was so
frustrated with prayer requests.
I hate prayer requests, so weget done with the team meeting.
Yeah, any prayer requests.
And here's why I hate them isbecause everyone hears you give

(40:38):
the prayer request and we'retalking about God like he's not
even here.

Speaker 1 (40:41):
He's not in the room.

Speaker 2 (40:42):
And here's the prayer request and we hear about on
Cindy's hip surgery or yourupcoming trip to Chicago and
safe travels, or whatever it is.
And then, after we take five orsix prayer requests OK,
everyone, good, then we pray andyou can I mean, the next time
you do it at a staff meeting orsomething, or you're in the room
and prayer requests are aboutto be prayed Listen for the sigh

(41:05):
man you will hear an audibleside of people trying to conjure
up like the willpower to leanforward, close my eyes and pray
as if I don't know what the guyis about to pray, because we all
heard the same prayer requestand we hear the same thing twice
.
And for me, I'm like trying tomake the most of every moment of
the day and I'm squeezing themarrow out of life, right, so

(41:26):
I'm sitting there going, we'rewasting time, you know like, and
it was just it was eating at me, so one, uh, and this is, I
mean, recent man, this is likethis fall.
At one staff meeting I was like, okay, guys're going to do we
have any prayer requests?
And I said, but the onlydifference I want you to say is
prayers for dot, dot, dot and um, just share your prayer request

(41:46):
by saying prayers for and then.
So somebody would say prayersfor my aunt Cindy, okay.
And I said, okay, now say that.
And then fill in the blank Okay, so prayers for my aunt Cindy
that you know God would heal herupcoming surgery would be
successful and God would guidethe doctors.
I said, great, okay, cool, nowsay in Jesus name.
And they looked at me and like,and so she was, but it is my

(42:11):
finance director, the financedirector here at the church, and
she goes, okay, in Jesus name.
And I said, now we all say amen.
And everyone said amen, and Iwas like you just prayed and it
was, and nobody's eyes, you know, like, were closed and we're
all, like, you know, in this, itwas just this conversational
thing.
I said, okay, that's how we'regoing to do it.
And then somebody else did it asprayers for and it was like our

(42:32):
upcoming youth night that Godwould, you know, touch the
hearts of kids and you know thatwe would see baptisms, you know
, or something like that, youknow, and it was a prayer for
the unite and then a prayer for,you know, some kind of an
upcoming meeting that we had orwhatever.
Whatever, it was a budgetmeeting, but it was always
prayers for that, and it was so,tim, it was so conversational.

(42:55):
People were talking and, likeinterrupting each other, like I
don't know, a conversation wouldbe with your father at the

(43:17):
table, you know, and and like wewere like, oh wait, it was
teaching a group of people howto pray with this simple, simple
thing Prayers for name it, thatand then, after the meeting I
was opening up, I was readingand Paul does this Pray for us
that the message may spreadspeed ahead in 1 Thessalonians 3

(43:41):
.
Pray for us that the Lord mayopen a door for the gospel, and
I was like it's this pray forthat formula, so I told it.
At the last conference that youand I saw each other at, I told
that story.
Scott Seidler, who's also inyour neck of the woods, did it
the next week with his staff,and he texted me like afterwards
, like that was the best thingever with our staff.

(44:03):
It was like this prayer meetingthat went on for 30 minutes
because we did prayers for that,and again.
What it is, though, is a systemteaching conversational prayer.

Speaker 1 (44:13):
Chris, I love it, love it so much.
Where in the Bible does it saythat we have to have our head
bowed, eyes closed, hands folded?
Or in the oran's position, likewhere is any of this?

Speaker 2 (44:26):
it's just all cultural stuff, right, I think
I've heard that monks wantedkids to stop fidgeting, so
that's when they folded theirhands.
Okay, that's what I've heard.
I don't know if that's an urbanlegend or not, but anyway, yeah
, yeah, yeah, we're so, we're sostuck on the it, it's, it's,
it's a system that we've got to,like, get off script from.

Speaker 1 (44:46):
Yeah yeah, no, it's good man.
I appreciate your, your passion, I love your, your evangelical
heart.
Um, last last, uh, so whatabout I got two, two closing
kind of questions?
What about like pray acronym,like the praise, praise, repent,
ask, yield or whatever?

Speaker 2 (45:04):
What are your thoughts towards that?

Speaker 1 (45:05):
Yeah, yeah, acts or whatever.
What are your thoughts towardusing those as kind of a prayer
handle?

Speaker 2 (45:09):
Yeah, I don't know what your other kind of closing
questions would be, but I thinkwhen I talk to churches, prayer
services are one of them, prayerservices are one of them, and
in prayer services, we willstructure times with like ACTS,
adoration, confession,thanksgiving supplication, or
pray, you know, repent,adoration, yield, stuff like
that.
That's when I do those and Ithink people privately, you know

(45:32):
like if they experiencesomething and they do it
privately, I think it's fine.
Again, I think these are, theseare tools, you know not rules
and they're they.
They can become a crutch, butlike it's, it's, it's keeping it
fresh.
So we will use those things um,in like prayer services and
like leading people through itduring our our uh, during our

(45:55):
prayer nights.
But I don't know what are theytrying to do?
They're trying to teach thiskind of conversational thing and
I, yeah, so I think, I think Idon't have any opinion, you know
, for or against them.
Yeah, yeah, but but I do thinkprayer services is something
that another system thatchurches could be doing.
I talk about it a lot, but anight where it's not it's not a

(46:16):
prayer breakfast where we eatfood and pray for five minutes,
it's just a meeting where we gettogether and pray, and I think
a lot of churches would, and soI tell people to start small.
You know, start with your PeterJames, john, then start with 10
people, 20 people, before youunveil that we're having a
prayer service.
But I think most churches, atleast in the LCMS, the reason

(46:41):
they don't do a prayer serviceis they're afraid no one will
come.
I mean, what are the otherreasons we don't?
Yeah, I don't know and we'reafraid no one will come because
we're secretly afraid thatnobody knows how to pray like
that or whatever it is.
And so, again, it's aneducation point.
But once you create the prayerservice, once it's in place and
there's a lot of you knowteaching I could go into there

(47:03):
but once it's in place, thenagain it's another system that
creates this culture of prayerbeyond scripted prayers.
And then I don't know if you'regoing to ask me about prayer
walking, but I think, yeah,that's the final question for
sure.

Speaker 1 (47:15):
But let's go, let's go deeper into.
Is it once a month?
What's your rhythm?

Speaker 2 (47:21):
of like a prayer night, right.
So, start slow, start small,right so?
So it's easier to ramp up thanslow down.
You always, we're always tryingto capture momentum, right?
So if you start small maybeit's your Peter, james and John,
maybe it's your elders and theneverybody invites one person
and then you unveil it publicly.
My encouragement is to do once amonth because it's easier to
ramp up, right?

(47:41):
So if you start a weekly prayerservice, that's hard to sustain
when you don't have thatcritical mass.
But if you start a once a monthprayer night at your church and
you're gathering together withpeople, man Paul says, like God
can do more than we ask, Thinkor imagine, and like that's

(48:01):
where people start asking reallybig prayers, and you can, you
know, and at prayer nights youcan, you can structure, you can
give a theme to each one orwhatever it might be.
There's a lot I could go intothat, but my encouragement is to
start slow and keep on leavinga room for growth, because you
know we, we can get, sometimeswe can get too enthusiastic and

(48:22):
and then everyone's burned outand then you know we have to.
Then it's almost impossible torevitalize something.

Speaker 1 (48:27):
Yeah, no, I love do you guys have a prayer?

Speaker 2 (48:29):
night at your church or anything.

Speaker 1 (48:30):
We have and it it's kind of behind the scenes now.
It we have the like 15 to 20who are a part of a part of it
and I'm I'm praying about itramping it back up right right
now, so excited about that.
We've done it in the past.
I mean it's like uh, um,elongated time for everyone in
the.
This is pre-covid covidhonestly kind of did, did a

(48:53):
number to to that ministry andI'm really looking to.
I think we're in a season rightnow where we have a lot of
leaders who are ready to godeeper.
We actually have our firstforay into a freedom weekend
which is going to be saturatedwith prayer.
That's a Friday night, like afive to nine.
We've got about 100 people whoare coming to that and it's

(49:16):
teaching coupled withintercessory prayer, leading
toward kind of addiction care.
So some time of sharing menwith men, women with women, kind
of our different struggles,different crosses, and so it's
kind of a combination betweencatechesis and intercessory
prayer for a whole weekend.
I'm really excited about it.

(49:37):
We gave specific directions tohave all of our leaders come, so
it's kind of part of ourleadership development.
It's a once a year, only once ayear, because it takes a little
bit.
We're sharing a couple mealstogether it's a five to nine and
then a one to eight on Saturday.
I'm really, really pumped aboutit, so maybe that's something I
could share with you, but I do.
Out of this I want to start.

(49:59):
I want, cause I think we've gota core group of people that are
committed to getting themonthly and that's what we did
before.
It was a monthly prayer night.
Probably 30 people would come,which was great and and it was
very conversational and theprayer was very communal and
there was, there was somesinging and and we did the
Lord's, we did the Lord's uh,supper too for those that came

(50:22):
kind of a more intimate kind ofdistribution of the sacrament.
So yeah.
I think it's a.
It's a sweet time to kind ofreconsider that.
Let's close with prayer.
Let's close with prayer walking.
Um, we, we love.
You got an ebook on pray, whatyou see.

Speaker 2 (50:35):
No, it's actually I.
So I, when I wrote it, I wroteit in a weekend.
It was full of typos.
It was an ebook I finally wentthrough and edited, and now it's
in paperback too.

Speaker 1 (50:44):
So Cool, nice, awesome.
So yeah, pray.
What you See is your book andreally it's kind of the focus in
the power of prayer walking.
Just make a pitch to close onhow powerful prayer walking can
be.

Speaker 2 (51:03):
Yeah, yeah.
So when I was at the churchplan is really where this all
started, and it's again becauseI was not good at prayer and I
knew that if we were going toreach this community we had, I
had to pray.
And so I went for a walk andprayed for the things that I saw
and I found out later it'scalled prayer walking.
So I was like, oh, okay, thisis a thing, and I was like I'm
going to do that every week andso for uh, for an entire year,
um, I went prayer walking and Ibrought people along, brought
investors, brought people in thecommunity that had met, that

(51:24):
were interested in being part ofthe church plants or you know
cause we were parachuting in andit was, it was spectacular, and
I got done and I was like Ineed to kind of share this
because so many people wereasking me about it.
So I kind of just shared mythoughts and I made it in eBooks
.
It's super cheap too, right.
So I kind of just shared mythoughts and I made it in eBooks
.
It's super cheap too, right.
So you can, you can, you know,get all the resources rather
than me, like disseminate theinformation, just cut the metal

(51:46):
man out and uh, and then, uh, Ihad no idea, man, but it just it
really took off and that's whyI finally put it in paperback
too.
But when I got to St Mark hereand there's so many stories of
things, that remarkable thingsthat happened at the church
plant and lives being changedand addictions being overcome
and baptisms happening, and noneof those stories were stories

(52:08):
we could tell without the prayerthat preceded it.
Right, none of them.
And because they were all justmoves of God and miraculous
things that we had called for,some of them like very
specifically, we prayed for thatand that happened, you know,
and it was like awesome.
And when I got to St Mark, Iwas like why would I?

(52:28):
Why would I stop doing whatmade for a successful church
plan, now that I'm anestablished church?
And and I was like that'sridiculous.
And I realized like, if we'regoing to reach this community,
which every church has, thatcharge, when God looks at you,
he sees your city, all thechurches in Revelation, when he
was writing to them, he doesn'twrite to the church based on the

(52:49):
name of the pastor, he writesto the church based on the city
they're called to reach.
To the church in Laodicea, tothe church in Philadelphia, to
the church right, and he'swriting to these churches, uh,
based on the city they're calledto reach, and so why would we
not do prayer walking in thiscommunity?
And so the very like I meanthis is like months to here I
was like I was telling thechurch, okay, we're going to do
this thing called prayer walking, just meet me here at the

(53:11):
church, and it was.
I mean, people were like whatis this crazy thing?
And we started prayer walking.
Um, by the third, we did it oncea week through the, through the
summer, so June and July and bythe third week, man, I was
hearing people say stuff back tome Like I've never talked to
God like this.
I can't believe how many thingsthere are to pray for.
I've never prayed for thekingdom like this.

(53:32):
And I, and one one lady told meshe's like I had no idea how
much of my prayer was just aboutme.
And prayer walking forces us tothink extra.
I mean, right, these are allthings that we want our
parishioners to be saying, right, and I was like, so we did that
.
Um, and we have a giant map inour lobby of our church and, uh,
we trace in blue markereverywhere we walked and we are

(53:52):
going to keep on walking everysummer until every piece of
concrete in our city is prayedfor.
Man and um, it, it, just, it hasa way of just turning people's
eyes outward and you can't tellthe story of what's happening
here, apart from the prayerwalks that are made and the
prayer nights that are making ithappen.
Man and um, when I talk tochurches, if I could wave a wand
and just instantly have them doanything, it would be prayer

(54:15):
walking for sure, um, it willtransform your church.
And you know, like, up here wegot to do it in the summer.
It's like snowing as I talkedto you.
So down there maybe you got toflip it, and because it's
blistering hot and then we'resummer, you got to do it.
But the point is that, man, it'sjust again, it's another system

(54:39):
that that that if, if people,you know, like it teaches people
conversational prayer, that'sthat unscripted and nothing's
going to happen unless it, youknow, like we're not going to
see the move of God that hewants.
It's so weird to me man, likethe God, limits a portion of
what he does to our prayers.
I don't know why he would do it.
He's got his word and then hewaits for my word or my prayer.

(55:01):
Right, and I don't know why hedoes it.
I don't know why he, but hedoes.

Speaker 1 (55:11):
That's all.
So our job is to be faithful tothat.
Amen.
I hope, listener, you're takingone next step.
Whether you're a leader, notreally like you, you are a
leader, you're listening to this, you have influence wherever
the Lord has called you in yourhome, out in your community, if
you happen to be a leader in achurch, for that respective
group of people in that location, and prayer is the catalyst for
mission.
So, lord Jesus, I'm grateful forChris and the call upon his

(55:32):
life, your presence at St Markthere in Battle Creek, that many
people would come to a savingknowledge of who you are,
receive your word, be baptized,brought into a right
relationship, receive theforgiveness of sins through your
body and blood and then be sentout into their respective
vocations to reach people withthe gospel, holy Spirit.
You have to move and we arepraying expectantly, lord Jesus,

(55:56):
and we pray for our church body, we pray for the wider church
across the world and we alsopray for the tribe in which
we're a part, the LutheranChurch, missouri Synod that
unity would reign, that opennessto reaching different people
with different needs, differentfelt needs in their respective
community, that creativity andentrepreneurial leaders who are

(56:20):
collaborative, that areoptimistic, that are expectant
for growth would be thebyproduct of our work together
and that we've talked aboutsystems, Holy Spirit, and that
the systems would be present toraise up the next generation of
leaders.
Because this thing called yourmission goes far beyond Chris
and I.
We're a small, small cog inthat glorious grand big wheel

(56:42):
advancing toward eternity, andso we just want to be found
faithful, lord Jesus, and Ithank you for your call upon
Chris's life and thisconversation about prayer.
Lord Jesus, and I pray forChris that the kingdom would
expand through his ministry InJesus' name.

Speaker 2 (56:59):
Amen, amen, chris, so good dude, grateful for you
that the kingdom would expandthrough his ministry in Jesus
name, amen.

Speaker 1 (57:02):
Amen, chris.
So good, dude, grateful for you.
If people want to connect withyou, pray for your churchcom.
What's your email, bro, if youthrow that?

Speaker 2 (57:08):
out just info at pray for your churchcom.

Speaker 1 (57:11):
I love it.
Info at pray for your churchcom.
Any closing.
Any closing comments.
Both this has been a good timefor you.

Speaker 2 (57:18):
Yeah, I'm just inspired.
I love what you're doing, man.
I've prayed for your podcastbefore and I'll continue to do
so.
I think there's awesomeconversations you're having and
this is a good platform, and youhave a very ironic, pleasant
disposition to have hardconversations.
It's a gift man.
I just you have a very, uh,ironic, pleasant disposition.

(57:41):
We have hard conversations.
It's a gift man, and so justkeep it up.
You're doing good things.

Speaker 1 (57:45):
Well, God did it to me, so I take no responsibility
one way or another.
I only take responsibility forthe doofy things.
Sometimes I say and uh, thanksfor honestly, thanks for your
prayers as we enter intochallenging conversations.
But ironic is an interestingword If you have to Google it.
I think it means something liketrying to have conversations

(58:10):
with a pleasant disposition.
I think that's what it is.
Did you just Google it, Did you?
Just Google it, I didn't, Ididn't.
A few people have said thatrecently.

Speaker 2 (58:18):
And I have.
Yeah, I don't know the yeah.

Speaker 1 (58:19):
It's like having a hard time recently and I have.
I have a yeah, I don't know theLord.
The Lord did that to me and I Ireally see and I guess toward
to land that I just see whatcomes on the other side of
addressing what is the problem.
That is, offering it to theLord and walking arm and arm.
There is nobody in our church.
That is my enemy.

(58:39):
Like we're brothers and sistersin Christ.
I guess some people may saythat I could be a part of you
know I could be an enemy to them, but every time I have a
conversation with someone, I'mlike we got so much that we
agree on.
Like I don't think there'sanybody in the LCMS, that's.
Like I don't think the churchshould grow, you know.
Like no one's saying that, it'sjust how.
It's how it grows, you know,and the systems that could

(59:02):
create the growth.
That's what we're having a longform conversation about, chris.
So I'm grateful for you.
Thanks for your prayers and thisis a Tim Allman podcast.
Please like, subscribe, comment, comment wherever it is you
take in these podcasts.
The Unite Leadership Collectivefollowing us on YouTube really
helps as well if you take thisin on Spotify or iTunes,
wherever it is, and I pray thatthe joy of Jesus is yours, that

(59:23):
you take that one next step as aleader, in growing in your
prayer life.
It's not just for the clergy,it's for all of the priesthood
to have intimate communion,dependency upon the triune God.
It's a good day.
Go make it a great day,wonderful Chris.
Thank you, buddy, thank youbrother.