July 23, 2025 • 51 mins
What happens when the rituals that once helped us grieve—viewings, funerals, community gatherings—fade into the background? In this deeply moving episode, Tim sits down with grief expert Julie Lynn Ashley to discuss the Western church’s growing discomfort with death, loss, and mourning.
Why are fewer Christians choosing funerals? Why do we avoid silence and tears? And what simple things can churches do today to care for grieving people with real love and presence?
Whether you’re a pastor, caregiver, or someone walking through loss, this conversation will reshape how you view grief—and the gospel hope that meets us in it.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Welcome to the Tim Allman Podcast.
It's a beautiful day to bealive.
Pray.
The joy of Jesus is with you asyou get to meet a friend I've
admired from afar, and now I getto meet her.
Her name is Julie Lynn Ashley,and we're going to be talking
about grief and bereavement,death and hope, which is ours in
the crucified and risen andreigning Jesus.
(00:26):
Let me tell you a little bitabout Julie Lynn.
Julie Lynn Ashley holds amaster's of science in
thanatology If you've not heardof that, that's the study of
grief, death and bereavement.
She's a member of theAssociation for Death Education
and Counseling.
She's a mom to adult sons,landon and Kyle, and wife to her
best friend of over 30 years,doug, who is a lead pastor in
(00:46):
East Texas.
Julie Lynn has worked andvolunteered in the hospice
industry for years and theredeveloped a God-given passion to
support grieving people.
She now has her own griefcoaching ministry, both in
person and online, where sheworks with people one-on-one who
need support following deathand loss.
You can hit her up on herwebsite at julielinashleycom.
(01:10):
Julie Lynn, how are you doing,sister?
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Great to meet you.
Thank you so much, tim, forhaving me today, and I
appreciate all the work you putinto producing this.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Hey, no, it's fun, I love I got a lot to learn,
especially on this topic.
So we were talking, before wehit play, about Julie Lynn now
being a standard name.
I don't have, because I wasthinking it was like maybe your
maiden name or something likethat.
But no, you were God-givenJulie Lynn.
You're in East Texas andthere's a lot of two-name people
in East Texas.
Tell that story, julie.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Lynn.
So it works.
We kind of joked we moved hereafter being in ministry for
almost 17 years in Denver.
So big culture shift moving toTexas.
But we've joked that my doublename has found its people after
all these years.
And you got your Jim Bob,that's all kinds of folks here,
and the stereotype is truethey're very, very friendly and
(01:57):
they are very, very willing tohelp you out.
It's if you've heard ofstereotypes of Texans, that way,
it's true.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Like to stop and take care of you if a car tire busts
or something like that.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Yes, yes, one of my sons actually had car issues one
morning on his way to work whenhe still lived here in Texas,
and multiple people kept pullingover.
How can I help?
What can I do?
And so it's been a very sweetplace to live.
In light of that, you don'ttake that for granted.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Has that shaped the way that culture deals with
grief?
Is it different there thanmaybe in other places?
Because I'll give my experienceTalk about that.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Absolutely One of the things that took me off guard
culturally here when we firstmoved here is there.
You'll see a funeral processioncoming down the road and the
entire street pulls over to makespace for that funeral
procession to come through, andit's just this general respect
for a life that was lost, and sothat has just been inspiring.
(02:58):
It's challenged me in good ways, just culturally here, to see
that respect for a life.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Well, in the almost 20 years since I was a student
pastor to now that I've been apart of death and grieving, loss
, funerals, burial a lot of ourrituals, traditions, especially
in the urban and suburbancenters of America, have changed
.
I mean, when I first became apastor, it was very consistent
(03:28):
that the funeral would takeplace.
I have a wedding later on today.
That's why I said wedding.
The funeral would take placewithin a couple days of the
passing couple, three days Today.
A lot of times families waitmaybe multiple months to make
sure everybody can come, andsome even longtime Christians in
(03:48):
our church.
They choose not to have anysort of funeral and that's not a
large percentage but maybe 10%,and that's just like what's
going on here.
And then most are crematedtoday and we can get into that.
I have a high respect for thebody.
That's not the choice I'm goingto make and I would pray my
(04:09):
family and friends.
I think there's.
We don't need to give God morework than he.
You know that kind of thing.
But there's respect If youchose cremation.
Jesus brings ashes to life, tobe sure, but to see a body in a
casket and because I can't eventhink about it now because it's
been so long.
A visual.
What is that called at JulieLynn when?
Speaker 2 (04:29):
you're viewing a viewing, yeah, a viewing.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
There we go, gee whiz , a viewing, and that was normal
.
And then the closing of thecasket as a pastor processes
down with the body to the frontof the church.
The service begins, the pastorlead Now this is really old
school.
The service begins, the pastorleads Now this is really old
school.
The pastor leads therecessional out to the car and
then the whole procession movesoff immediately to the burial
(04:55):
site.
That what I just said.
Right now.
I have not done one of thosesince pre-COVID, and even then
here at my church I've been here12 years.
Even then that was probably 10%it's.
We'll do the burial somewhereelse, or you got the ashes and
the loved ones are keeping theashes, and so, yeah, some of the
(05:15):
rituals, culturally for us,have been lost, and I don't.
You know, rituals are forrelationship.
Rituals are not just forritual's sake, they're for
relationship and appropriateseasons of grieving.
But it feels like, especiallyhere in the fast-paced, almost
depersonalized, a narrowing ofrelationship rather than maybe
(05:36):
connected to this widercommunity of grief and a season
of grief, it seems like we'velost something, a season of
grief.
It seems like we've lostsomething, that maybe we've lost
the sense of our finality andwe, I think, could weep deeply.
I think of Jesus right and hisweeping at the grave site of his
(05:58):
friend Lazarus and being withpeople Generally today.
That's hard for us.
So how do you develop a passionfor helping people process
death and grief?
Tell a little bit more of yourstory, and thanks for just
listening to me as I'm verballyprocessing all the things that
have changed as it relates togrief and death.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Yeah.
So my journey with this started10 years ago when my husband,
doug, had a call to pastor achurch here in Texas.
So we were going to be movingto a new area.
And when you move to a new areayou're looking for how can I
connect in my community, how canI make new friends?
And back then I didn't havefriends here.
I had acquaintances, and so youstart with what you have.
(06:37):
And so an acquaintance saidJulie Lynn, I would love if you
would come and try outvolunteering at the hospice
where I work.
And would love if you wouldcome and try out volunteering at
the hospice where I work.
And I thought you know whatit's a new day, new chapter, new
state, try something new.
And so I did.
And just that invitationtotally changed my life.
Once I got into hospice work, myheart it's like God drew a line
(07:01):
directly from my heart topeople who have been through a
death loss.
So my heart was really drawn tothe people, the ones that are
left after a loss, theloneliness, the pain, and so as
I watched all these hospiceprofessionals specifically I was
working with the chaplains,kind of as an intern at that
(07:22):
time I thought I have got tolearn more, and so that's what
led me to go back to school.
Later in life my kids were inhigh school at this point and
try for a master's degree andGod led me into this program
that looks at death, grief andloss from a lot of different
facets, with the end goal ofhelping people that have
(07:45):
experienced death and loss.
So after graduating, Igraduated right in the middle of
the pandemic, so my diploma wasjust mailed to my door.
You know, so many graduationswere canceled that year and so
it was me and an envelope on myfront porch with a bunch of big
Texas mosquitoes, and that wasmy graduation.
And from that point forward, alittle bit later, I opened my
(08:07):
own practice and now I work withgrieving people here locally in
my town, one-on-one, and then Iwork with people online all
over the world and have never,never enjoyed, or just God's,
given, so much joy in such adark place, which is kind of
(08:28):
it's.
It's not what you would think,and it's only something God
could do, and he's the onethat's provided and directed
this entire journey, so I'mgrateful Well, we're Christians,
right.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
And we know what is to come, that it's resurrection,
life and this life is but avapor right here today, gone
tomorrow, and grief is part ofthe journey for all of us.
So I just commend that.
The Lord kind of put that callupon your life.
We need more people who sit inthat space consistently and are
well-trained.
(09:00):
You say that you looked atgrief in your program from
multiple angles.
Can you give us an example ofall the different angles that
you were trying to look at grief?
Speaker 2 (09:08):
So it's looking at and we'll get into this later
into the podcast as well butit's looking at grief not only
for what someone has lost rightnow, but it's looking at what
did they lose for the futurewith the person that they lost.
And so that's just one of a lotof examples of the way that
you're approaching a grievingperson.
(09:31):
So it's not just the surfacelevel, it's their view of the
world may have changed.
Where are they wrestling withGod?
What relationships may havecrumbled for them as a result of
this loss?
So you look at someone perhapsthat was married for 20 or 30,
40 years and they had a wholebunch of couple friends that
they went out with.
(09:51):
Well, now, all of a sudden, as asingle person, a widowed or
widowed person, what happens toall those friends that you hung
out with that were couples?
Do you still go?
Are you the fifth wheel, theseventh wheel, the ninth wheel,
like how does that work?
And so it's that curiosity toadd that, as you approach a
grieving person, there's so manylayers to this that our Western
(10:16):
culture has a hard time.
I love the words you used.
Are we willing to sit in thiswith someone?
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Yeah, that's what we need, but we don't.
We've not been trained, I don'tthink in the West and just the
everyday follower of Jesus evento sit with those who grieve and
weep, and we don't know what todo or say, and so we largely
stay away.
Why do you think we in the Weststruggle to process grief well
culturally?
Speaker 2 (10:41):
I think in the West we are trained to move, and move
quick.
We are multitaskers, we've gotnotifications dinging all day
long from a lot of differentsources and it's get it done,
get it done fast.
We also look at what's next.
We're always planning forwhat's next and so in this
(11:02):
culture there's not a lot ofspace.
I love again the word you use,sitting, to sit with someone in
what cannot be fixed.
So, to give you an example, Iwas talking with a widow and she
was in the middle of Walmartand picking up orange juice
Super simple task.
Well, orange juice was one ofher husband's favorite things,
(11:25):
and she just completely brokedown in the middle of the orange
juice section at Walmart andyou've got people staring at her
.
They don't know what to do orwhat to say and they're almost
frozen.
So you picture her theresobbing and they're frozen.
Well, in an Eastern culture,open displays of mourning are
(11:45):
actually welcome.
If you break down in the citysquare, that's fine, it's normal
, but it is not considerednormal in the West, and so that
puts grieving people who arealready feeling lonely, feeling
that much more isolated and whythere's such a gap between what
they need and kind of whereWestern culture is so that's
(12:08):
just a thumbnail sketch of it.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
No, I think that's good.
What are your thoughtsregarding the hyper
individualism here in the West?
Self-made man, woman ratherthan the collective, finding my
identity in the community ratherthan I think of.
I think of the Apostle Paul's.
You know what's the mostquotable athletic text scripture
?
Right, I think it's Philippians.
(12:31):
My son wrote Philippians 4.13,you know, and I was like son, do
you know what that?
Yeah, I do, daddy, I can do allthings.
I was like, all right, that'scool.
Do you know the next verse fromthe Apostle Paul?
No one knows, philippians 4.14,and yet it was kind of you.
He says to the church inPhilippi to sit with me in my
suffering, to be with me, tocomfort me in the midst of my
(12:51):
suffering.
So you see, this sense of self,sense of identity, which is
healthy, and then this deep needto say, but I can't, there's no
possible way I can do thisalone.
My identity is centered inChrist and in the church, in a
body, in a community of peoplewho walk this hard road, who
pick up their cross together andfollow after Jesus.
(13:11):
So any thoughts about howhyper-individualism plays into
how we process grief?
Julie Lynn.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
Yes, we can find the sadness, the discouragement on
our own pretty easily.
That's pretty easy to find.
What is harder to find is theencouragement, the way forward,
and for that God made us forcommunity, and that is the
encouragement that comes into mylife.
(13:38):
Often God uses people for that,and so I think it's absolutely
that way with grieving too.
Is that it's in community,those little things that you do
for a grieving person and viceversa.
I know I've been the recipientof things that have been
(13:59):
encouraging, that remind me thatGod sees me, and so I
absolutely think community is apart of the grieving process for
people.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
I mean, that's the power of the local church, right
, julie Lynn?
Yes, it's a group of peopleyou're voluntarily gathering
together.
Let us Hebrews right notneglect getting together as some
are in the habit of doing.
You can't make it alone Fromthe very beginning.
It's not good that man shouldbe alone.
That old boy, he's not going tomake it right.
That's a marriage text that Iuse, and then it moves out from
(14:34):
he and she to the kids into acommunity.
You have to be tethered, youhave to be grounded.
There's a sense of self that alot of people today in our
culture.
I think this is one of thegreatest value adds for the
necessity of a religiouscommunity, the local church,
people on mission, to invite asmany people as possible into
community, because many peopletoday loneliness is an epidemic.
(14:55):
It is and is a church actuallycreating space for lonely people
, grieving people, to find loveand connection in the midst of
through man.
I'm preaching every singleSunday to dozens of widows and
widowers in our community andthey found their people there.
So what should churchesconsider doing to help others
(15:15):
grieve?
What's working, what's not, inyour estimation, julie Lynn?
Speaker 2 (15:18):
So there's a couple things to get real practical,
because I love talking withanybody, but especially ministry
leaders, about this topic.
One of them is it's somethingreally simple we've done and
we're at a smaller church, andwhat I'm about to share with you
does not necessarily need to beon ministry staff.
It could be a small groupleader that does this.
(15:40):
But at our church, if you'veseen the funeral programs that
are given out, they usually havethe date the person was born
and the date the person died.
There's also some key datesthat you may find inside the
program, like their weddinganniversary, those types of
things.
When we get those at our church, those dates after the funeral
(16:00):
is over get entered into just abasic spreadsheet and once a
month that spreadsheet getspulled up and someone from staff
will be intentionally reachingout on what we call the tender
days.
So I think about it this waylike I've been married now for
30 years and I cannot imagine ifmy husband was gone, what it
(16:22):
would be like to wake up on theday of my wedding anniversary
and not have anybody sayanything, and oftentimes what we
find is the person's ownextended family have forgotten,
and so we as the church havetried to come in and try to just
.
It's a simple reach out.
It may be just a card orsomething, but it reaches into a
very dark, lonely place wherethat person might be.
(16:44):
So that's just one practicalidea.
Another one to get real specificI have a friend, carrie Bartkus
, that has a website calledlovedoesthatorg, and if you type
into her website Blue ChristmasService, she has some really
great ideas on how to do a miniBlue Christmas service at your
(17:08):
church, and we're in April now,so you've got lots of time to
look at this before December.
Ministry leaders need lots oflead time if you're going to try
something new.
But it gives people especiallyat the holidays that can be
particularly tender,particularly hard a space in
their church family to grievethe person that they've lost and
(17:28):
thank God for that life.
We've done this at our church.
We've seen it at other churchesin the community.
But if you're looking for asolid resource on how do I even
think about starting this, youcan go to Carrie's website and
look that up.
That's lovedoesthatorg.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
Oh, that's so good.
So Blue Christmas Service it'sa Christmas service that
recognizes grieving peoplespecifically in the hope of the
Emmanuel Jesus coming into theworld.
So I've not heard of that.
This is the first, so I'mpumped man.
Okay, say more about what thatservice looks like.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Yes, so we did this at our church a number of years
ago and so it's a hymn like OCome, o Come.
Emmanuel echoes what you justsaid.
We're going to read the namesout loud of the people, so it's
people will contact us ahead oftime and say I would like the
name of my loved one has lostrelevancy, but it's still
(18:27):
relevant to that grieving person.
You can imagine the power ofhearing your pastor say the name
of the person that you lost.
That's a gift to someone at ahard time at the holidays, when
they're missing them, maybe evena little more.
Another thing that we did atour service to connect people.
It's like what you talked aboutrelated to community.
(18:52):
I don't know as a kid if youever did paper chains on
Christmas trees.
As kids we did that.
We gave out strips of paper atthis service and we asked for
anybody in the room if youremember something about someone
else's person that they lost,could you write that down and
give that to that person.
And so we watched widows walkout of that service with a
(19:13):
fistful of these papers withmemories of their loved one that
they lost, that they were goingto go home and put on their
tree or somewhere in their houseand it's again we're grieving
and supporting each othertogether in community.
So those are just kind of somesmall ideas.
You basically customize it toyour situation, your church,
(19:35):
where you are.
But these are just some kind ofideas to spark things, to get
some conversations started abouthow do we intentionally lean
into this instead of backing up,because a lot of times what
we're intimidated by we back upfrom, and grieving people have a
lot of that in their lifealready.
So having the church lean in inintentional ways can be really
(19:59):
powerful.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
I love it.
Man.
What's your perspective onGrief Share, the ministry that's
kind of gaining some tractionnationally and internationally
Grief Share.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
I was basically an intern in for a couple years and
so I got to watch it and Ithink it has a place in
communities.
It is very affordable.
It's basically just the cost ofthe workbook, so it's less than
$20.
For people that are up againstsome financial challenges in
grieving it's very accessible.
There's grief groups all overthe US.
(20:29):
You just type in your zip codeand one will pop up near you.
It's extremely especially nearthe end very evangelistic, so
that's something to keep in mindas you are talking with people
about it.
It's got some really practicalthings in it.
So one of my favorite sessionsis session five things in it.
(20:50):
So one of my favorite sessionsis session five.
It's a 13 week series andsession five talks very
specifically with a grievingperson about what do you do with
their possessions.
Do you keep them, do you tossthem, what do you do?
And it's approached in a verysensitive, kind way, I will say.
Having been part of it, Iwatched a couple come in once
that had lost a child and theynever came back.
(21:11):
They came one time and nevercame back.
So there may be more specific.
I've got some more specificones later in the show to give
you that are very specific toparents that have lost a child
because they may not fit as wellin a generalized grief group.
That's so good.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Let's talk to caregivers.
What are the top threepositions or postures of the
heart that should shape everyChristian caregiver?
And I'm thinking you knowwhether it's a Stephen minister
we've got a spiritual care team.
They're doing prayer and careand sitting with grieving people
and they're just everydayfollowers of Jesus.
Our team here it's a largerchurch, so it's like 30.
Some people who areconsistently in formation to sit
(21:49):
with come alongside those thatare on the way to see Jesus and
those that are coming alongside,family members that are coming
alongside.
So what are, yeah, thosepostures of the heart that
should shape just everydayChristian caregiver?
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Yes, I love this, that you asked this question
First answer right off the topwould be humility, and it's a
humility that says I am notgoing to project that I fully
understood the relationship youhad with this person.
So for you to say to someone,gosh, you must miss your mom,
(22:22):
that must be the worst thingthat's ever.
Well, you don't know what therelationship was between that
person and their mom.
So it's approaching with ahumility that you don't know.
And right on the heels of thatis going to be a curiosity, so
to very respectfully askquestions.
We watch in Jesus'sinteractions with people in the
(22:44):
gospels and he asks so manyquestions.
He's the God of the universeand he knows everything, and yet
he meets people by askingquestions.
And so humility, and then acuriosity, I think is key in
working with grieving people.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
You said two questions.
Can you, did you, do you havethose specific questions that
you like to use in your tools,in your tool belt, to ask when?
Yeah, yeah, that you justmentioned regarding humility and
curiosity, do you know some ofthose best asked questions to
sit with people with thatposture?
Speaker 2 (23:22):
that I tell almost any client that I'm working with
is I will look at them and sayI will never fully understand
the depth of what you've lost,but I'm going to try.
And so if you approach with thatmindset of I'm going to try,
but I'm not going to come in asif I'm all knowing, because the
(23:43):
only person that's all knowingis God himself and so there's a
humility, there is a curiosityand then, following that is what
I call, this circles back tohumility again, but it's a
deciphering.
So it is in layman's terms readthe room, look at things in
context and again, if you'reapproaching with a humility and
(24:08):
a curiosity, that decipheringshould be right there with it
that you're going to reallywatch the surroundings, context
and read the room.
Um, for, for what you're aboutto say, there's been times I'm
working with clients and I mayhave something that I've
prepared for them before we meet, and in the context, when I
read the room, I'm like the HolySpirit prompts me.
(24:29):
It's like nope, not right now.
You need to save that, put itaway and just be in this, like
you said, be in this with them.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
Yeah, well, that's, our presence is the greatest
gift.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Right.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
And having been in many rooms, silence is golden.
It is silence is golden it is.
And waiting and kind ofmirroring having someone who's
obviously an outsider enter inand somewhat mirror the emotions
of of the room yes and I meanthere have been many times and
(25:01):
you probably the same where thegrief is so palpable and, like
Jesus, who had a closerelationship with Lazarus, I may
not have that close ofrelationship with that person,
you know.
But if there's tears in thatroom over loss, I'm going to
agree with that without emotion,and often I cry right along
(25:22):
with the family because death isnot good, this should not be,
and so we, we sit in.
We sit in that.
Anything more to say about kindof mirroring the room, as
you're talking about for people,that because some people's EQ
skills or your emotionalquotient, et cetera, we always
have room to grow and our IQ mayhave outpaced our EQ, and so I
(25:42):
think this is really helpful forus to model what mirroring
looks like in the midst of grief.
Julie Lynn.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
Yes, absolutely it's.
I think your pacing when you'reworking with someone is
important and, like you said,the mirroring.
There is absolutely a place forsilence.
To repeat back what they'vesaid.
It's I think you're saying thisto make sure that you're fully
understanding what they'resaying, and then to pause and
(26:11):
let that silence sit.
It can be very powerful.
I know you, I would imagine,when you're speaking, it's it's
you.
You use silence and pausesintentionally at times when
they're appropriate, and so it's.
It's absolutely that way whenyou're sitting with someone that
is grieving.
Another thing when I was on thehospice team, I would go in and
(26:33):
I would literally be waitingwith the family.
I was part of the psychosocialteam that would wait with the
family until the hearse gotthere.
So it's me and the family andtheir deceased loved one, and as
a stranger coming in on thehospice team, I mean, can you
imagine?
What do you even say?
And what I would ask the familyis what did she call you, what
(26:55):
did you call her?
And they would say it was Mimi,it was grandma, it was.
It's just that.
What is so personal and that'swhat you watch Jesus do with
people it's what's personal,what's under the surface, a
little bit, what is not preachy,what is not trite, what goes a
(27:15):
little bit deeper.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
So I mean you've said some things that should be
avoided for the caregiver, whatelse, anything else top of mind,
that should be avoided?
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Oh, yes, I could talk on this for a long time, but
I'll keep it brief for today.
Anything that comes on the otherside of these two words at
least should not be said,because when you say the words,
at least, whatever's going tocome on the other side of that
is going to minimize their loss,it's going to minimize their
(27:45):
grief and it's ultimately, whenyou say things like that that
are trite, or at least he's in abetter place, it's actually to
comfort yourself, it's not tocomfort them, it's to get you
out of a difficult situationthat you feel uncomfortable in.
And I believe what Jesus isasking us to do is to lean in
and not try to fix, and to justto lean in and not try to fix,
(28:06):
and to just again the humility,the curiosity and the
deciphering and there's apatience that comes with that
process not to rush it and notto say something quick and fast
and preachy, but to humbly ask aquestion what Lord would meet
(28:27):
the needs of this person rightnow?
And for the Holy Spirit toreveal that question to you and
for you to share that, ratherthan rattling off stories versus
things that are.
When you rattle those thingsoff, it's because you're nervous
and you don't know what to say.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
I think in some of my favorite pastoral phrases
centered in scripture, becausepeople don't want trite, they
don't want a sermon at all, andpeople are hardwired for hope.
And so, at the right moment,discerning, when I'm thinking of
(29:05):
my brother-in-law's dad wholost his wife, when this is one
of the hardest grief stories andour in our family's story, when
my brother-in-law was drivingand and he got hit by a semi
break and and went and andTurned into an oncoming SUV and
(29:27):
his mom was there and she endedup dying in her son's arms.
So, very difficult.
My brother-in-law, tim, is apastor down the road with me and
then it was remarkable we wentto the funeral and was with not
only Herm, who lost his wifeSandy, but also the father of
(29:52):
Sandy who, due to anotherillness, lost his daughter.
And they were actually on theway to that funeral preparation
when the accident happened.
And so in one day, a fatherburied both of his daughters in
a small Iowa farm town and uh,and being with Herm, profound
(30:13):
faith, and just crying with himand and saying at the right time
you know, a better day iscoming.
This isn't that day, but abetter, but a better day is
coming of resurrection, hope,you know, and and uh, outside of
that, I mean, what do we got?
This life is so futile andfragile and you know I've said
before, like the only outside ofthe hope of Jesus, all we have
(30:35):
is hedonism and nihilism.
Right, it's pleasure to numbthe pain, right, and then when
that doesn't work, it's might aswell be done with it.
No, I mean, the Christian hopeis so profound that Christ has
been raised as the first fruitsof faith for those that are
found in him, and he's going tocome to raise the dead.
So now I sound like I'mpreaching, right, but I mean,
it's a certain, if Christ hasnot been raised, your faith is
(30:59):
futile, you're still in yoursins.
But in fact, 1 Corinthians 15,christ has been raised, the
firstfruits of those who arefound in faith.
And even the way Jesus dealswith death, you know, with the
young girl.
She's just sleeping and theylaugh at him, right, they laugh
at him, and Jesus just walksright past them and raises her
up as a, as a foretaste, or aforeshadowing of what he's going
(31:22):
to do for all who who are in inhim, wrapped up in his loving
embrace on that last day.
So any take on the role of ofhope in the midst of hope, in
the midst of grief, julie.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
Lynn.
Yes, a lot of times what you'llsee, especially with grieving
parents, is this idea.
In the academic world, we callit meaning making.
So it's this grappling for why,why did this happen, and what
am I to do with these brokenpieces, this side of heaven,
these puzzle pieces that don'tmake sense, this side of heaven.
(31:55):
And so it's things like whenyou see Mothers of Drunk Drivers
, that was born out of thisdesire, this like what you're
talking about with hope meaningmaking.
I can't change it for me, butcan I change it for somebody
else?
I can't change it for me, butcan I change it for somebody
else.
And so you'll watch, especiallygrieving parents grapple with
(32:20):
this and look for ways that theycan incorporate what tragic
event may have happened in orderto help the world as a whole.
And so that's where a lot ofgrieving people will spend time
in the area of hope, becausethey can't change it for
themselves, but they can changesomething for somebody else.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
That's really good.
Would you talk about thedifference in grief and I don't
know if I put this on all thequestions.
I have so many questions.
This is so fun the differenceof grief from a widow or a
widower to parents who lose achild and I don't care at what
age, whether they're young, youknow one day old.
(33:01):
That wound is.
One of the hardest of all ofall wounds is the loss of a
child.
Would you help us?
Would you help us find somemeaning and hope and words of
wisdom as we walk alongsidegrieving parents?
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Yes.
First thing, for people who arewalking with someone who has
lost a child, it's a completelyout of order life event.
You're not supposed to buryyour child ever.
That's it's out of order.
So one of the things I love togive people is some really
practical resources especially,again, ministry leaders tools in
(33:37):
our toolbox.
What can we do to help when wefeel completely helpless?
These are not necessarily toolsthat you will use right out of
the gate, so it's going to againthat humility, curiosity and
deciphering as to when the righttime is to offer some of these
resources, and deciphering as towhen the right time is to offer
(33:58):
some of these resources.
One of the ones for people thathave lost infants is a website
called nofootprinttosmallcom.
I learned about this type ofministry in my grad school days,
and what this ministry does isthey will make a weighted bear
in the exact birth weight of ababy that was stillborn or was
lost to SIDS, and they will mailthat to that grieving mom or
(34:19):
that grieving dad who has theseaching arms that wanted to hold
that baby, and it's just a tinylittle bit of comfort, but it's
very specific, and so that'ssomething that I can refer my
clients to that have lost a baby.
Another one that is a greatresource for your toolbox is the
(34:45):
hopemommiesorg.
They work on care packages thatare given to moms in hospitals
that have just had an infantloss.
They have 5Ks that they dothroughout the country to help
raise funds for this and havelocal groups meeting.
So again, it's that communitythat you're talking about, so
(35:06):
grieving moms with othergrieving moms.
So that's another one for yourtool belt toolbox moms.
So that's another one for yourtool belt tool toolbox.
Another one that I love to giveI just gave this one out
recently is called themorningcomand it's spelled morning M O R
N I N G, like good morning, andthis one helps families, moms
(35:29):
that have lost infants,stillbirth, sids, pregnancy loss
and it's so specific this iswhy I love this one to recommend
this one that, for parents thatare so numb they can't even
think about a funeral, thiswebsite has funeral templates
specifically designed forinfants.
So when you can't even thinkabout the idea of burying your
(35:53):
baby, this website has thingsthere that you can grab,
resources that you can grab tohelp you through that time and
then beyond.
And then, finally, the last onethat I recommend for people
that have lost maybe a youngadult child or an adult child is
CompassionateFriendsorg.
They are an organizationsimilar to Grief Share, where
(36:15):
you can type your zip code inand a group will pop up that's
right in your geographic area,which gets us back to again
grieving in community and to bewith other parents that have
lost a child.
So I think there's some overlapin the question that you asked,
like what's the differencebetween grieving parents or, you
(36:36):
know, a widow or a widower?
I think a commonality in all ofthat is they're not only
grieving what they lost in themoment, but they're grieving
what they lost for the future.
So for a widow or a widower,it's like, well, I had planned
to finish out my retirement withthis person we had, we were
going to travel, we had allthese plans and now they're
(36:57):
smashed.
What do I do with that?
And for a grieving parent, it'sespecially if they lost the
baby in infancy or a stillbirth,or SIDS like you brought up for
the rest of their life.
On that child's birthday it's Isee what a one-year-old is in my
community and my child wouldhave been that age and that pain
(37:17):
goes on.
Birthdays that were lost,weddings that won't happen,
grandchildren that won't be.
There's just, it's a rippleeffect of these waves of loss
that keep coming.
I talked with a lady once whohad lost a baby.
His name was Patrick and shelost him 30 years ago, and the
tears were right there in hereyes as if it had happened
(37:38):
yesterday, and so that's theother thing that I think it's
important for people to knowabout grief and loss is that it
is not fixed in a year, it's notfixed in two years.
This is a lifetime that theywill grieve that person.
God only made one of thatperson.
They're not replaceable, and soit's just some again, some
(38:03):
things to be thinking about aswe humbly approach grieving
people asking God what can I do?
Speaker 1 (38:10):
I'm emotional on this topic because, uh, you know,
caregivers, pastors, I I have uhsecond hand, uh PTSD, that kind
of accumulate on that.
I haven't been diagnosed withPTSD or anything like that, but
like the tears are right there,thinking about all of the
(38:32):
unnatural death experiences I'vebeen, I've been intimately
connected to, right across thiscourtyard and looking in our
worship space you know, a packedworship space for young people
um, or suicide um or yeahdifferent, um, or yeah different
(38:57):
, I mean every accidents to youknow the 60 year old couple
who's grieving the loss of theiruh, six year marriage, right,
Uh, and they passed her in theirnineties and so caring for that
widow or widower, um, there'sjust, there's just a lot.
Any words of care for cause yourhusband Doug, right, you do
pastor, you pastor people.
Any words of love and care andempathy for those that have kind
of accumulated lots of lots ofwounds over time, and comforting
(39:22):
people that are that arehurting.
Any words of kindness to us.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
Yes, it is a hard road that you walk.
And what's so interesting, tim,is I'm sure you know, in your
years of education, in myhusband's years of education, he
has an MDiv In all thateducation there was only.
I asked him.
I said, doug, what kind ofeducation did you have on grief
and grieving in seminary?
(39:47):
And he said there was only partof one class in all the years
that I had.
And yet pastors like you arethrown on the front lines of it
all the time.
And so it's to encourage you tokeep going.
It's where are those spaces?
This was something that really,in the hospice industry they,
they emphasized is when you'vebeen in a really intense
(40:11):
situation, in the ER at first,on the scene at a car accident,
whatever it is that pastors andleaders get put into, oftentimes
with very little training,no-transcript, Um, and where is
it that you are finding?
(40:31):
Um a place to replenish yourself?
Because you're you, as we know,in pastoral ministry, you get
very little notice.
Um, I've said, most of the timenobody calls the pastor after
six o'clock for something good.
So, um, we don't get verylittle notice and I think
pastors have, in a lot ofinstances, very little um little
(40:51):
education on it, but they'rerequired to give it, and so
that's it's a tough place to be,and so it's.
Where are the places you're notonly replenishing yourself, but
where can you go and geteducation?
Where can you go and get whereyou feel more equipped with
what's out there?
Where you feel more equippedwith what's out there, and
(41:12):
that's part of why I'm a memberof ADEC, association for Death
Education and Counseling forongoing education in what's new,
what's happening in this field,just like any other field, it
changes as time goes on, and sowhat are some places to equip
yourself and get rest?
Speaker 1 (41:29):
Hey, I love that Beautiful words of wisdom.
I would.
I'm just going to double downon the need for rest.
Take your Sabbath.
I do coaching Sunday's, notyour Sabbath man.
Probably not Saturday either,because you're prepping for
Sunday.
So, whether it's Monday orFriday, those are the two kind
of standard days.
Shut it off and I'm talking tomyself right now.
(41:51):
But everything is I mean, butit's, everything is just right.
In front of you, I would saySabbath and sabbatical.
Every seven years I get asabbatical and I'm a month away
from taking.
I had one seven years ago andI'm going to be gone for 10, 10
days.
I'm off, I have a off.
What's the language?
I've been coached on this.
(42:14):
I have to kind of detox to offramp.
There we go.
I got to off ramp into mysabbatical and then I have
rhythms that I'm going to besetting up for soul care.
During that time, Obviously,I'm going to be with family and
on some trips and I'm also doingsome fun things like writing
for fun.
You know I got some fictionworks to keep my mind going, but
it's going to go like that.
(42:35):
But if you're a congregationalleader and you don't have a
rhythm of giving your pastor asabbatical every seven years,
really really consider doingthat.
And I can't wait for what comesin the other side how excited I
am to enter back in and see howeverything went.
I'm actually I'm shutting offmy phone access to only a very
(42:56):
few people and I am getting ridof the ability to look at email.
Um, and I'm so excited aboutthat right Cause email is so
reactive.
You get all the and, being whoI am, I get.
Do I really want to open thatemail right now?
What's on the other side ofthat right so just getting to
shut that off?
I'm so excited about that.
Any take on Sabbath andsabbatical and pastor's rhythms?
(43:19):
Julie Lynn.
Speaker 2 (43:20):
Yes, we're big believers in that.
We took a sabbatical at thebeginning of 2023 for three
months and absolutely loved it.
We are so grateful to ourdenomination and our church for
the gift of that time and you're100% right.
We came back fired up to getback in because we had had that
rest.
Additionally, I am the onlyperson in our church that when
(43:42):
Doug has had to do a seven-dayrun because there's been a
funeral, an emergency orwhatever, I'm the one standing
there going where's my day back?
You just worked seven, where'sit coming back?
And so and he knows it's for notonly the good of our marriage,
it's for the good of the churchthere's ripple effects to when
(44:03):
you take a sabbatical and takeintentional rest, and so we're
big believers in that here, andI see that as an important role
in what I do is I'm like okay,where am I getting?
And now he knows, after allthese years in ministry, now he
knows he's like the day's comingback.
I'm taking Monday off.
I'm taking like he knows, andwhat I want for him in that day
(44:27):
is to do things that I know heloves to read books for fun, to
watch a movie, he loves to go tothe gym.
That's what I want for him,because I know those are things
that fill him back up.
Speaker 1 (44:37):
There you go, so a couple closing questions.
You're awesome.
I could talk to you for a longperiod of time.
What's the role?
I started off the podcast withthe role of rituals and kind of
the evolution of rituals in ourculture.
Would you speak to the role ofrituals, seasons of grief,
funerals to help Christiancommunities grieve collectively?
Speaker 2 (44:56):
well, yes, I think it connects with what you and I
were talking about related tocommunity.
So one thing that our communityhere in East Texas does to
collectively as a ritual, ahospice nearby does what they
call love lights at Christmas,and so, if you've ever seen,
they call it luminaria.
In some areas it's like thislittle brown paper bag and
(45:16):
inside they have that littlelight at the bottom and they
take these and they put them allover our little local arboretum
in our town and they honor alife and they read the names
Again.
They read the names aloud,which is so powerful for someone
.
You see, of things likebutterfly releases, balloon
releases.
(45:36):
There's all kinds of things thatyou can do in a grief ritual
planting trees, whatever it isand that's something I talk
about with my clients too,especially if they're going into
year two, year three, and we'lltalk about on this person's
birthday.
What are you going to do?
And you make a plan.
You may not carry it outbecause it may be too hard on
(45:59):
that day, but it's making someplans to honor that life.
I knew a widow where herhusband's favorite cake was
German chocolate cake and on hisbirthday every year she goes
and gets German chocolate cakeand may share it with some
friends that knew him and theytalk about him and share
memories about him and that'spowerful.
Again, it's in community andit's giving people space to sit
(46:23):
in what's not going to be fixedand that's hard for us in the
West to do, because we want tofix it and move on and you can't
fix this.
Wow, because we want to fix itand move on and you can't fix
this.
Speaker 1 (46:30):
Wow, You've given so many awesome resources and
examples.
I'm going to tell my teamalways probably has PTSD from me
sending the email.
Have we thought of this?
There's always more on thegrief journey, so I'm praying
our team does maybe one or two.
We do a lot of amazing things.
(46:50):
Maybe one or two new things tocare for people who are grieving
in our community.
You've been great.
Let's close with this questionwhat's your favorite Jesus story
?
Bible?
Jesus story of Jesus processingloss, grief and death.
Speaker 2 (47:04):
That was an easy.
When I got that question I waslike I love that question John
20, jesus and Mary Magdalene andshe's actually grieving him.
He's died, he's come back tolife and he's standing right in
front of her and she doesn'trecognize him.
And, circling back to what wesaid, he asks questions Woman,
(47:27):
why are you crying?
Who is it that you're lookingfor?
And to me, I get chills talkingabout it.
I'm like that is so powerful.
He could have said so manyother things in that moment in
her tears, but he asks questions, and so to me that's my
favorite.
It was easy.
When you asked me that question.
(47:48):
I'm like that's an easy one forme because it's just him and
her in this moment and it's umthis humility.
He could have said so manythings, but he asked her
questions and leans into thosetears.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:01):
And doesn't he say her name?
Speaker 2 (48:02):
Yes, mary.
Speaker 1 (48:07):
That's.
That's so cool.
Jesus is the best man and I'mrecording this.
Put a timestamp on it.
I'm emotional.
I'm writing our Good Friday andEaster message right now.
This is probably coming outafter that, but Holy Week is the
best.
These rituals from Palm Sundayto Monday, thursday to Good
Friday.
Everything's condensed,everything's intense, and you
(48:29):
know the end of the story thatSunday's coming, but they didn't
know, they couldn't, theycouldn't see in the midst of
their their plans were not God'splans.
You're thinking too small, guys.
I got, I got plans for theworld, for the cosmos, and
you're just thinking aboutIsrael and I think of how, you
know, we've got all these, allthese plans and our plans are
very, very small.
(48:50):
And God, since we're connectedto the greatest love story of
all time, god's plans are grand,they're huge for you, for the
world, that all would be savedand come to a knowledge of the
risen one, jesus, who says ourname, who claims us in the
waters of baptism by name.
He knows all of our days andhe's orchestrated them all.
So we don't have to be afraidof anything.
(49:12):
Really, though, we get afraidbecause we're human, we're frail
, we're fragile, but sin, deathand the devil have been defeated
.
Our greatest enemy, death, hasbeen defeated because Jesus
lives, and so I'm praying forthe everyday follower of Jesus
just to become more adept,always more to learn, coming
alongside those that aregrieving, to weep and to mourn
(49:34):
with those who weep and mourn,and to remember our loved ones
and to look forward to that daywhen we see Jesus face to face
and our loved ones face to face.
You're a gift to the body ofChrist, julie Lynn.
If people want to connect withyou, how can they do so?
Speaker 2 (49:51):
The easiest way would be over my website, which is
julielynnashleycom.
Speaker 1 (49:56):
Hey, this is the Tim Mullen Podcast.
It's a podcast of the UniteLeadership Collective.
We're looking to learn on thispodcast from people we didn't
even talk about anythingLutheran related.
I'm a Lutheran and I wasdetoxed from all the Lutheran
conversations I get in as amember of the Lutheran Church
Missouri Synod.
I don't even know what part ofthe tribe of the body of Christ
you and your husband areconnected to.
(50:17):
Julie Lynn, would you tell methat?
Speaker 2 (50:19):
You are hanging with the Presbyterians today.
Speaker 1 (50:21):
Okay, well, we agree on the resurrection of Jesus and
the hope that is to come.
So that was really, really fun.
I had a, because I get into alot of different podcasts, julie
Lynn, on things in the churchand in my denomination that are
less fun, actually, than thisconversation was today, even
though we were talking aboutgrief and loss.
(50:42):
This was so delightful.
You're a gift and pleasecomment.
Hopefully this podcast washelpful for you.
Send it to a friend who'swalking through grief, send it
to caregivers.
We are all wounded healers andthe only balm for our wounds is
Jesus, so let's share the loveof Jesus as the body of Christ.
It's a good day.
Go make it a great day.
(51:03):
Thanks so much, julie Lynn.
Speaker 2 (51:04):
Thank you.
Welcome to the Tim Allman Podcast.
It's a beautiful day to bealive.
Pray.
The joy of Jesus is with you asyou get to meet a friend I've
admired from afar, and now I getto meet her.
Her name is Julie Lynn Ashley,and we're going to be talking
about grief and bereavement,death and hope, which is ours in
the crucified and risen andreigning Jesus.
(00:26):
Let me tell you a little bitabout Julie Lynn.
Julie Lynn Ashley holds amaster's of science in
thanatology If you've not heardof that, that's the study of
grief, death and bereavement.
She's a member of theAssociation for Death Education
and Counseling.
She's a mom to adult sons,landon and Kyle, and wife to her
best friend of over 30 years,doug, who is a lead pastor in
(00:46):
East Texas.
Julie Lynn has worked andvolunteered in the hospice
industry for years and theredeveloped a God-given passion to
support grieving people.
She now has her own griefcoaching ministry, both in
person and online, where sheworks with people one-on-one who
need support following deathand loss.
You can hit her up on herwebsite at julielinashleycom.
(01:10):
Julie Lynn, how are you doing,sister?
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Great to meet you.
Thank you so much, tim, forhaving me today, and I
appreciate all the work you putinto producing this.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Hey, no, it's fun, I love I got a lot to learn,
especially on this topic.
So we were talking, before wehit play, about Julie Lynn now
being a standard name.
I don't have, because I wasthinking it was like maybe your
maiden name or something likethat.
But no, you were God-givenJulie Lynn.
You're in East Texas andthere's a lot of two-name people
in East Texas.
Tell that story, julie.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Lynn.
So it works.
We kind of joked we moved hereafter being in ministry for
almost 17 years in Denver.
So big culture shift moving toTexas.
But we've joked that my doublename has found its people after
all these years.
And you got your Jim Bob,that's all kinds of folks here,
and the stereotype is truethey're very, very friendly and
(01:57):
they are very, very willing tohelp you out.
It's if you've heard ofstereotypes of Texans, that way,
it's true.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Like to stop and take care of you if a car tire busts
or something like that.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Yes, yes, one of my sons actually had car issues one
morning on his way to work whenhe still lived here in Texas,
and multiple people kept pullingover.
How can I help?
What can I do?
And so it's been a very sweetplace to live.
In light of that, you don'ttake that for granted.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Has that shaped the way that culture deals with
grief?
Is it different there thanmaybe in other places?
Because I'll give my experienceTalk about that.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Absolutely One of the things that took me off guard
culturally here when we firstmoved here is there.
You'll see a funeral processioncoming down the road and the
entire street pulls over to makespace for that funeral
procession to come through, andit's just this general respect
for a life that was lost, and sothat has just been inspiring.
(02:58):
It's challenged me in good ways, just culturally here, to see
that respect for a life.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Well, in the almost 20 years since I was a student
pastor to now that I've been apart of death and grieving, loss
, funerals, burial a lot of ourrituals, traditions, especially
in the urban and suburbancenters of America, have changed
.
I mean, when I first became apastor, it was very consistent
(03:28):
that the funeral would takeplace.
I have a wedding later on today.
That's why I said wedding.
The funeral would take placewithin a couple days of the
passing couple, three days Today.
A lot of times families waitmaybe multiple months to make
sure everybody can come, andsome even longtime Christians in
(03:48):
our church.
They choose not to have anysort of funeral and that's not a
large percentage but maybe 10%,and that's just like what's
going on here.
And then most are crematedtoday and we can get into that.
I have a high respect for thebody.
That's not the choice I'm goingto make and I would pray my
(04:09):
family and friends.
I think there's.
We don't need to give God morework than he.
You know that kind of thing.
But there's respect If youchose cremation.
Jesus brings ashes to life, tobe sure, but to see a body in a
casket and because I can't eventhink about it now because it's
been so long.
A visual.
What is that called at JulieLynn when?
Speaker 2 (04:29):
you're viewing a viewing, yeah, a viewing.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
There we go, gee whiz , a viewing, and that was normal
.
And then the closing of thecasket as a pastor processes
down with the body to the frontof the church.
The service begins, the pastorlead Now this is really old
school.
The service begins, the pastorleads Now this is really old
school.
The pastor leads therecessional out to the car and
then the whole procession movesoff immediately to the burial
(04:55):
site.
That what I just said.
Right now.
I have not done one of thosesince pre-COVID, and even then
here at my church I've been here12 years.
Even then that was probably 10%it's.
We'll do the burial somewhereelse, or you got the ashes and
the loved ones are keeping theashes, and so, yeah, some of the
(05:15):
rituals, culturally for us,have been lost, and I don't.
You know, rituals are forrelationship.
Rituals are not just forritual's sake, they're for
relationship and appropriateseasons of grieving.
But it feels like, especiallyhere in the fast-paced, almost
depersonalized, a narrowing ofrelationship rather than maybe
(05:36):
connected to this widercommunity of grief and a season
of grief, it seems like we'velost something, a season of
grief.
It seems like we've lostsomething, that maybe we've lost
the sense of our finality andwe, I think, could weep deeply.
I think of Jesus right and hisweeping at the grave site of his
(05:58):
friend Lazarus and being withpeople Generally today.
That's hard for us.
So how do you develop a passionfor helping people process
death and grief?
Tell a little bit more of yourstory, and thanks for just
listening to me as I'm verballyprocessing all the things that
have changed as it relates togrief and death.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Yeah.
So my journey with this started10 years ago when my husband,
doug, had a call to pastor achurch here in Texas.
So we were going to be movingto a new area.
And when you move to a new areayou're looking for how can I
connect in my community, how canI make new friends?
And back then I didn't havefriends here.
I had acquaintances, and so youstart with what you have.
(06:37):
And so an acquaintance saidJulie Lynn, I would love if you
would come and try outvolunteering at the hospice
where I work.
And would love if you wouldcome and try out volunteering at
the hospice where I work.
And I thought you know whatit's a new day, new chapter, new
state, try something new.
And so I did.
And just that invitationtotally changed my life.
Once I got into hospice work, myheart it's like God drew a line
(07:01):
directly from my heart topeople who have been through a
death loss.
So my heart was really drawn tothe people, the ones that are
left after a loss, theloneliness, the pain, and so as
I watched all these hospiceprofessionals specifically I was
working with the chaplains,kind of as an intern at that
(07:22):
time I thought I have got tolearn more, and so that's what
led me to go back to school.
Later in life my kids were inhigh school at this point and
try for a master's degree andGod led me into this program
that looks at death, grief andloss from a lot of different
facets, with the end goal ofhelping people that have
(07:45):
experienced death and loss.
So after graduating, Igraduated right in the middle of
the pandemic, so my diploma wasjust mailed to my door.
You know, so many graduationswere canceled that year and so
it was me and an envelope on myfront porch with a bunch of big
Texas mosquitoes, and that wasmy graduation.
And from that point forward, alittle bit later, I opened my
(08:07):
own practice and now I work withgrieving people here locally in
my town, one-on-one, and then Iwork with people online all
over the world and have never,never enjoyed, or just God's,
given, so much joy in such adark place, which is kind of
(08:28):
it's.
It's not what you would think,and it's only something God
could do, and he's the onethat's provided and directed
this entire journey, so I'mgrateful Well, we're Christians,
right.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
And we know what is to come, that it's resurrection,
life and this life is but avapor right here today, gone
tomorrow, and grief is part ofthe journey for all of us.
So I just commend that.
The Lord kind of put that callupon your life.
We need more people who sit inthat space consistently and are
well-trained.
(09:00):
You say that you looked atgrief in your program from
multiple angles.
Can you give us an example ofall the different angles that
you were trying to look at grief?
Speaker 2 (09:08):
So it's looking at and we'll get into this later
into the podcast as well butit's looking at grief not only
for what someone has lost rightnow, but it's looking at what
did they lose for the futurewith the person that they lost.
And so that's just one of a lotof examples of the way that
you're approaching a grievingperson.
(09:31):
So it's not just the surfacelevel, it's their view of the
world may have changed.
Where are they wrestling withGod?
What relationships may havecrumbled for them as a result of
this loss?
So you look at someone perhapsthat was married for 20 or 30,
40 years and they had a wholebunch of couple friends that
they went out with.
(09:51):
Well, now, all of a sudden, as asingle person, a widowed or
widowed person, what happens toall those friends that you hung
out with that were couples?
Do you still go?
Are you the fifth wheel, theseventh wheel, the ninth wheel,
like how does that work?
And so it's that curiosity toadd that, as you approach a
grieving person, there's so manylayers to this that our Western
(10:16):
culture has a hard time.
I love the words you used.
Are we willing to sit in thiswith someone?
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Yeah, that's what we need, but we don't.
We've not been trained, I don'tthink in the West and just the
everyday follower of Jesus evento sit with those who grieve and
weep, and we don't know what todo or say, and so we largely
stay away.
Why do you think we in the Weststruggle to process grief well
culturally?
Speaker 2 (10:41):
I think in the West we are trained to move, and move
quick.
We are multitaskers, we've gotnotifications dinging all day
long from a lot of differentsources and it's get it done,
get it done fast.
We also look at what's next.
We're always planning forwhat's next and so in this
(11:02):
culture there's not a lot ofspace.
I love again the word you use,sitting, to sit with someone in
what cannot be fixed.
So, to give you an example, Iwas talking with a widow and she
was in the middle of Walmartand picking up orange juice
Super simple task.
Well, orange juice was one ofher husband's favorite things,
(11:25):
and she just completely brokedown in the middle of the orange
juice section at Walmart andyou've got people staring at her
.
They don't know what to do orwhat to say and they're almost
frozen.
So you picture her theresobbing and they're frozen.
Well, in an Eastern culture,open displays of mourning are
(11:45):
actually welcome.
If you break down in the citysquare, that's fine, it's normal
, but it is not considerednormal in the West, and so that
puts grieving people who arealready feeling lonely, feeling
that much more isolated and whythere's such a gap between what
they need and kind of whereWestern culture is so that's
(12:08):
just a thumbnail sketch of it.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
No, I think that's good.
What are your thoughtsregarding the hyper
individualism here in the West?
Self-made man, woman ratherthan the collective, finding my
identity in the community ratherthan I think of.
I think of the Apostle Paul's.
You know what's the mostquotable athletic text scripture
?
Right, I think it's Philippians.
(12:31):
My son wrote Philippians 4.13,you know, and I was like son, do
you know what that?
Yeah, I do, daddy, I can do allthings.
I was like, all right, that'scool.
Do you know the next verse fromthe Apostle Paul?
No one knows, philippians 4.14,and yet it was kind of you.
He says to the church inPhilippi to sit with me in my
suffering, to be with me, tocomfort me in the midst of my
(12:51):
suffering.
So you see, this sense of self,sense of identity, which is
healthy, and then this deep needto say, but I can't, there's no
possible way I can do thisalone.
My identity is centered inChrist and in the church, in a
body, in a community of peoplewho walk this hard road, who
pick up their cross together andfollow after Jesus.
(13:11):
So any thoughts about howhyper-individualism plays into
how we process grief?
Julie Lynn.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
Yes, we can find the sadness, the discouragement on
our own pretty easily.
That's pretty easy to find.
What is harder to find is theencouragement, the way forward,
and for that God made us forcommunity, and that is the
encouragement that comes into mylife.
(13:38):
Often God uses people for that,and so I think it's absolutely
that way with grieving too.
Is that it's in community,those little things that you do
for a grieving person and viceversa.
I know I've been the recipientof things that have been
(13:59):
encouraging, that remind me thatGod sees me, and so I
absolutely think community is apart of the grieving process for
people.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
I mean, that's the power of the local church, right
, julie Lynn?
Yes, it's a group of peopleyou're voluntarily gathering
together.
Let us Hebrews right notneglect getting together as some
are in the habit of doing.
You can't make it alone Fromthe very beginning.
It's not good that man shouldbe alone.
That old boy, he's not going tomake it right.
That's a marriage text that Iuse, and then it moves out from
(14:34):
he and she to the kids into acommunity.
You have to be tethered, youhave to be grounded.
There's a sense of self that alot of people today in our
culture.
I think this is one of thegreatest value adds for the
necessity of a religiouscommunity, the local church,
people on mission, to invite asmany people as possible into
community, because many peopletoday loneliness is an epidemic.
(14:55):
It is and is a church actuallycreating space for lonely people
, grieving people, to find loveand connection in the midst of
through man.
I'm preaching every singleSunday to dozens of widows and
widowers in our community andthey found their people there.
So what should churchesconsider doing to help others
(15:15):
grieve?
What's working, what's not, inyour estimation, julie Lynn?
Speaker 2 (15:18):
So there's a couple things to get real practical,
because I love talking withanybody, but especially ministry
leaders, about this topic.
One of them is it's somethingreally simple we've done and
we're at a smaller church, andwhat I'm about to share with you
does not necessarily need to beon ministry staff.
It could be a small groupleader that does this.
(15:40):
But at our church, if you'veseen the funeral programs that
are given out, they usually havethe date the person was born
and the date the person died.
There's also some key datesthat you may find inside the
program, like their weddinganniversary, those types of
things.
When we get those at our church, those dates after the funeral
(16:00):
is over get entered into just abasic spreadsheet and once a
month that spreadsheet getspulled up and someone from staff
will be intentionally reachingout on what we call the tender
days.
So I think about it this waylike I've been married now for
30 years and I cannot imagine ifmy husband was gone, what it
(16:22):
would be like to wake up on theday of my wedding anniversary
and not have anybody sayanything, and oftentimes what we
find is the person's ownextended family have forgotten,
and so we as the church havetried to come in and try to just
.
It's a simple reach out.
It may be just a card orsomething, but it reaches into a
very dark, lonely place wherethat person might be.
(16:44):
So that's just one practicalidea.
Another one to get real specificI have a friend, carrie Bartkus
, that has a website calledlovedoesthatorg, and if you type
into her website Blue ChristmasService, she has some really
great ideas on how to do a miniBlue Christmas service at your
(17:08):
church, and we're in April now,so you've got lots of time to
look at this before December.
Ministry leaders need lots oflead time if you're going to try
something new.
But it gives people especiallyat the holidays that can be
particularly tender,particularly hard a space in
their church family to grievethe person that they've lost and
(17:28):
thank God for that life.
We've done this at our church.
We've seen it at other churchesin the community.
But if you're looking for asolid resource on how do I even
think about starting this, youcan go to Carrie's website and
look that up.
That's lovedoesthatorg.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
Oh, that's so good.
So Blue Christmas Service it'sa Christmas service that
recognizes grieving peoplespecifically in the hope of the
Emmanuel Jesus coming into theworld.
So I've not heard of that.
This is the first, so I'mpumped man.
Okay, say more about what thatservice looks like.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Yes, so we did this at our church a number of years
ago and so it's a hymn like OCome, o Come.
Emmanuel echoes what you justsaid.
We're going to read the namesout loud of the people, so it's
people will contact us ahead oftime and say I would like the
name of my loved one has lostrelevancy, but it's still
(18:27):
relevant to that grieving person.
You can imagine the power ofhearing your pastor say the name
of the person that you lost.
That's a gift to someone at ahard time at the holidays, when
they're missing them, maybe evena little more.
Another thing that we did atour service to connect people.
It's like what you talked aboutrelated to community.
(18:52):
I don't know as a kid if youever did paper chains on
Christmas trees.
As kids we did that.
We gave out strips of paper atthis service and we asked for
anybody in the room if youremember something about someone
else's person that they lost,could you write that down and
give that to that person.
And so we watched widows walkout of that service with a
(19:13):
fistful of these papers withmemories of their loved one that
they lost, that they were goingto go home and put on their
tree or somewhere in their houseand it's again we're grieving
and supporting each othertogether in community.
So those are just kind of somesmall ideas.
You basically customize it toyour situation, your church,
(19:35):
where you are.
But these are just some kind ofideas to spark things, to get
some conversations started abouthow do we intentionally lean
into this instead of backing up,because a lot of times what
we're intimidated by we back upfrom, and grieving people have a
lot of that in their lifealready.
So having the church lean in inintentional ways can be really
(19:59):
powerful.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
I love it.
Man.
What's your perspective onGrief Share, the ministry that's
kind of gaining some tractionnationally and internationally
Grief Share.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
I was basically an intern in for a couple years and
so I got to watch it and Ithink it has a place in
communities.
It is very affordable.
It's basically just the cost ofthe workbook, so it's less than
$20.
For people that are up againstsome financial challenges in
grieving it's very accessible.
There's grief groups all overthe US.
(20:29):
You just type in your zip codeand one will pop up near you.
It's extremely especially nearthe end very evangelistic, so
that's something to keep in mindas you are talking with people
about it.
It's got some really practicalthings in it.
So one of my favorite sessionsis session five things in it.
(20:50):
So one of my favorite sessionsis session five.
It's a 13 week series andsession five talks very
specifically with a grievingperson about what do you do with
their possessions.
Do you keep them, do you tossthem, what do you do?
And it's approached in a verysensitive, kind way, I will say.
Having been part of it, Iwatched a couple come in once
that had lost a child and theynever came back.
(21:11):
They came one time and nevercame back.
So there may be more specific.
I've got some more specificones later in the show to give
you that are very specific toparents that have lost a child
because they may not fit as wellin a generalized grief group.
That's so good.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Let's talk to caregivers.
What are the top threepositions or postures of the
heart that should shape everyChristian caregiver?
And I'm thinking you knowwhether it's a Stephen minister
we've got a spiritual care team.
They're doing prayer and careand sitting with grieving people
and they're just everydayfollowers of Jesus.
Our team here it's a largerchurch, so it's like 30.
Some people who areconsistently in formation to sit
(21:49):
with come alongside those thatare on the way to see Jesus and
those that are coming alongside,family members that are coming
alongside.
So what are, yeah, thosepostures of the heart that
should shape just everydayChristian caregiver?
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Yes, I love this, that you asked this question
First answer right off the topwould be humility, and it's a
humility that says I am notgoing to project that I fully
understood the relationship youhad with this person.
So for you to say to someone,gosh, you must miss your mom,
(22:22):
that must be the worst thingthat's ever.
Well, you don't know what therelationship was between that
person and their mom.
So it's approaching with ahumility that you don't know.
And right on the heels of thatis going to be a curiosity, so
to very respectfully askquestions.
We watch in Jesus'sinteractions with people in the
(22:44):
gospels and he asks so manyquestions.
He's the God of the universeand he knows everything, and yet
he meets people by askingquestions.
And so humility, and then acuriosity, I think is key in
working with grieving people.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
You said two questions.
Can you, did you, do you havethose specific questions that
you like to use in your tools,in your tool belt, to ask when?
Yeah, yeah, that you justmentioned regarding humility and
curiosity, do you know some ofthose best asked questions to
sit with people with thatposture?
Speaker 2 (23:22):
that I tell almost any client that I'm working with
is I will look at them and sayI will never fully understand
the depth of what you've lost,but I'm going to try.
And so if you approach with thatmindset of I'm going to try,
but I'm not going to come in asif I'm all knowing, because the
(23:43):
only person that's all knowingis God himself and so there's a
humility, there is a curiosityand then, following that is what
I call, this circles back tohumility again, but it's a
deciphering.
So it is in layman's terms readthe room, look at things in
context and again, if you'reapproaching with a humility and
(24:08):
a curiosity, that decipheringshould be right there with it
that you're going to reallywatch the surroundings, context
and read the room.
Um, for, for what you're aboutto say, there's been times I'm
working with clients and I mayhave something that I've
prepared for them before we meet, and in the context, when I
read the room, I'm like the HolySpirit prompts me.
(24:29):
It's like nope, not right now.
You need to save that, put itaway and just be in this, like
you said, be in this with them.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
Yeah, well, that's, our presence is the greatest
gift.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Right.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
And having been in many rooms, silence is golden.
It is silence is golden it is.
And waiting and kind ofmirroring having someone who's
obviously an outsider enter inand somewhat mirror the emotions
of of the room yes and I meanthere have been many times and
(25:01):
you probably the same where thegrief is so palpable and, like
Jesus, who had a closerelationship with Lazarus, I may
not have that close ofrelationship with that person,
you know.
But if there's tears in thatroom over loss, I'm going to
agree with that without emotion,and often I cry right along
(25:22):
with the family because death isnot good, this should not be,
and so we, we sit in.
We sit in that.
Anything more to say about kindof mirroring the room, as
you're talking about for people,that because some people's EQ
skills or your emotionalquotient, et cetera, we always
have room to grow and our IQ mayhave outpaced our EQ, and so I
(25:42):
think this is really helpful forus to model what mirroring
looks like in the midst of grief.
Julie Lynn.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
Yes, absolutely it's.
I think your pacing when you'reworking with someone is
important and, like you said,the mirroring.
There is absolutely a place forsilence.
To repeat back what they'vesaid.
It's I think you're saying thisto make sure that you're fully
understanding what they'resaying, and then to pause and
(26:11):
let that silence sit.
It can be very powerful.
I know you, I would imagine,when you're speaking, it's it's
you.
You use silence and pausesintentionally at times when
they're appropriate, and so it's.
It's absolutely that way whenyou're sitting with someone that
is grieving.
Another thing when I was on thehospice team, I would go in and
(26:33):
I would literally be waitingwith the family.
I was part of the psychosocialteam that would wait with the
family until the hearse gotthere.
So it's me and the family andtheir deceased loved one, and as
a stranger coming in on thehospice team, I mean, can you
imagine?
What do you even say?
And what I would ask the familyis what did she call you, what
(26:55):
did you call her?
And they would say it was Mimi,it was grandma, it was.
It's just that.
What is so personal and that'swhat you watch Jesus do with
people it's what's personal,what's under the surface, a
little bit, what is not preachy,what is not trite, what goes a
(27:15):
little bit deeper.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
So I mean you've said some things that should be
avoided for the caregiver, whatelse, anything else top of mind,
that should be avoided?
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Oh, yes, I could talk on this for a long time, but
I'll keep it brief for today.
Anything that comes on the otherside of these two words at
least should not be said,because when you say the words,
at least, whatever's going tocome on the other side of that
is going to minimize their loss,it's going to minimize their
(27:45):
grief and it's ultimately, whenyou say things like that that
are trite, or at least he's in abetter place, it's actually to
comfort yourself, it's not tocomfort them, it's to get you
out of a difficult situationthat you feel uncomfortable in.
And I believe what Jesus isasking us to do is to lean in
and not try to fix, and to justto lean in and not try to fix,
(28:06):
and to just again the humility,the curiosity and the
deciphering and there's apatience that comes with that
process not to rush it and notto say something quick and fast
and preachy, but to humbly ask aquestion what Lord would meet
(28:27):
the needs of this person rightnow?
And for the Holy Spirit toreveal that question to you and
for you to share that, ratherthan rattling off stories versus
things that are.
When you rattle those thingsoff, it's because you're nervous
and you don't know what to say.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
I think in some of my favorite pastoral phrases
centered in scripture, becausepeople don't want trite, they
don't want a sermon at all, andpeople are hardwired for hope.
And so, at the right moment,discerning, when I'm thinking of
(29:05):
my brother-in-law's dad wholost his wife, when this is one
of the hardest grief stories andour in our family's story, when
my brother-in-law was drivingand and he got hit by a semi
break and and went and andTurned into an oncoming SUV and
(29:27):
his mom was there and she endedup dying in her son's arms.
So, very difficult.
My brother-in-law, tim, is apastor down the road with me and
then it was remarkable we wentto the funeral and was with not
only Herm, who lost his wifeSandy, but also the father of
(29:52):
Sandy who, due to anotherillness, lost his daughter.
And they were actually on theway to that funeral preparation
when the accident happened.
And so in one day, a fatherburied both of his daughters in
a small Iowa farm town and uh,and being with Herm, profound
(30:13):
faith, and just crying with himand and saying at the right time
you know, a better day iscoming.
This isn't that day, but abetter, but a better day is
coming of resurrection, hope,you know, and and uh, outside of
that, I mean, what do we got?
This life is so futile andfragile and you know I've said
before, like the only outside ofthe hope of Jesus, all we have
(30:35):
is hedonism and nihilism.
Right, it's pleasure to numbthe pain, right, and then when
that doesn't work, it's might aswell be done with it.
No, I mean, the Christian hopeis so profound that Christ has
been raised as the first fruitsof faith for those that are
found in him, and he's going tocome to raise the dead.
So now I sound like I'mpreaching, right, but I mean,
it's a certain, if Christ hasnot been raised, your faith is
(30:59):
futile, you're still in yoursins.
But in fact, 1 Corinthians 15,christ has been raised, the
firstfruits of those who arefound in faith.
And even the way Jesus dealswith death, you know, with the
young girl.
She's just sleeping and theylaugh at him, right, they laugh
at him, and Jesus just walksright past them and raises her
up as a, as a foretaste, or aforeshadowing of what he's going
(31:22):
to do for all who who are in inhim, wrapped up in his loving
embrace on that last day.
So any take on the role of ofhope in the midst of hope, in
the midst of grief, julie.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
Lynn.
Yes, a lot of times what you'llsee, especially with grieving
parents, is this idea.
In the academic world, we callit meaning making.
So it's this grappling for why,why did this happen, and what
am I to do with these brokenpieces, this side of heaven,
these puzzle pieces that don'tmake sense, this side of heaven.
(31:55):
And so it's things like whenyou see Mothers of Drunk Drivers
, that was born out of thisdesire, this like what you're
talking about with hope meaningmaking.
I can't change it for me, butcan I change it for somebody
else?
I can't change it for me, butcan I change it for somebody
else.
And so you'll watch, especiallygrieving parents grapple with
(32:20):
this and look for ways that theycan incorporate what tragic
event may have happened in orderto help the world as a whole.
And so that's where a lot ofgrieving people will spend time
in the area of hope, becausethey can't change it for
themselves, but they can changesomething for somebody else.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
That's really good.
Would you talk about thedifference in grief and I don't
know if I put this on all thequestions.
I have so many questions.
This is so fun the differenceof grief from a widow or a
widower to parents who lose achild and I don't care at what
age, whether they're young, youknow one day old.
(33:01):
That wound is.
One of the hardest of all ofall wounds is the loss of a
child.
Would you help us?
Would you help us find somemeaning and hope and words of
wisdom as we walk alongsidegrieving parents?
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Yes.
First thing, for people who arewalking with someone who has
lost a child, it's a completelyout of order life event.
You're not supposed to buryyour child ever.
That's it's out of order.
So one of the things I love togive people is some really
practical resources especially,again, ministry leaders tools in
(33:37):
our toolbox.
What can we do to help when wefeel completely helpless?
These are not necessarily toolsthat you will use right out of
the gate, so it's going to againthat humility, curiosity and
deciphering as to when the righttime is to offer some of these
resources, and deciphering as towhen the right time is to offer
(33:58):
some of these resources.
One of the ones for people thathave lost infants is a website
called nofootprinttosmallcom.
I learned about this type ofministry in my grad school days,
and what this ministry does isthey will make a weighted bear
in the exact birth weight of ababy that was stillborn or was
lost to SIDS, and they will mailthat to that grieving mom or
(34:19):
that grieving dad who has theseaching arms that wanted to hold
that baby, and it's just a tinylittle bit of comfort, but it's
very specific, and so that'ssomething that I can refer my
clients to that have lost a baby.
Another one that is a greatresource for your toolbox is the
(34:45):
hopemommiesorg.
They work on care packages thatare given to moms in hospitals
that have just had an infantloss.
They have 5Ks that they dothroughout the country to help
raise funds for this and havelocal groups meeting.
So again, it's that communitythat you're talking about, so
(35:06):
grieving moms with othergrieving moms.
So that's another one for yourtool belt toolbox moms.
So that's another one for yourtool belt tool toolbox.
Another one that I love to giveI just gave this one out
recently is called themorningcomand it's spelled morning M O R
N I N G, like good morning, andthis one helps families, moms
(35:29):
that have lost infants,stillbirth, sids, pregnancy loss
and it's so specific this iswhy I love this one to recommend
this one that, for parents thatare so numb they can't even
think about a funeral, thiswebsite has funeral templates
specifically designed forinfants.
So when you can't even thinkabout the idea of burying your
(35:53):
baby, this website has thingsthere that you can grab,
resources that you can grab tohelp you through that time and
then beyond.
And then, finally, the last onethat I recommend for people
that have lost maybe a youngadult child or an adult child is
CompassionateFriendsorg.
They are an organizationsimilar to Grief Share, where
(36:15):
you can type your zip code inand a group will pop up that's
right in your geographic area,which gets us back to again
grieving in community and to bewith other parents that have
lost a child.
So I think there's some overlapin the question that you asked,
like what's the differencebetween grieving parents or, you
(36:36):
know, a widow or a widower?
I think a commonality in all ofthat is they're not only
grieving what they lost in themoment, but they're grieving
what they lost for the future.
So for a widow or a widower,it's like, well, I had planned
to finish out my retirement withthis person we had, we were
going to travel, we had allthese plans and now they're
(36:57):
smashed.
What do I do with that?
And for a grieving parent, it'sespecially if they lost the
baby in infancy or a stillbirth,or SIDS like you brought up for
the rest of their life.
On that child's birthday it's Isee what a one-year-old is in my
community and my child wouldhave been that age and that pain
(37:17):
goes on.
Birthdays that were lost,weddings that won't happen,
grandchildren that won't be.
There's just, it's a rippleeffect of these waves of loss
that keep coming.
I talked with a lady once whohad lost a baby.
His name was Patrick and shelost him 30 years ago, and the
tears were right there in hereyes as if it had happened
(37:38):
yesterday, and so that's theother thing that I think it's
important for people to knowabout grief and loss is that it
is not fixed in a year, it's notfixed in two years.
This is a lifetime that theywill grieve that person.
God only made one of thatperson.
They're not replaceable, and soit's just some again, some
(38:03):
things to be thinking about aswe humbly approach grieving
people asking God what can I do?
Speaker 1 (38:10):
I'm emotional on this topic because, uh, you know,
caregivers, pastors, I I have uhsecond hand, uh PTSD, that kind
of accumulate on that.
I haven't been diagnosed withPTSD or anything like that, but
like the tears are right there,thinking about all of the
(38:32):
unnatural death experiences I'vebeen, I've been intimately
connected to, right across thiscourtyard and looking in our
worship space you know, a packedworship space for young people
um, or suicide um or yeahdifferent, um, or yeah different
(38:57):
, I mean every accidents to youknow the 60 year old couple
who's grieving the loss of theiruh, six year marriage, right,
Uh, and they passed her in theirnineties and so caring for that
widow or widower, um, there'sjust, there's just a lot.
Any words of care for cause yourhusband Doug, right, you do
pastor, you pastor people.
Any words of love and care andempathy for those that have kind
of accumulated lots of lots ofwounds over time, and comforting
(39:22):
people that are that arehurting.
Any words of kindness to us.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
Yes, it is a hard road that you walk.
And what's so interesting, tim,is I'm sure you know, in your
years of education, in myhusband's years of education, he
has an MDiv In all thateducation there was only.
I asked him.
I said, doug, what kind ofeducation did you have on grief
and grieving in seminary?
(39:47):
And he said there was only partof one class in all the years
that I had.
And yet pastors like you arethrown on the front lines of it
all the time.
And so it's to encourage you tokeep going.
It's where are those spaces?
This was something that really,in the hospice industry they,
they emphasized is when you'vebeen in a really intense
(40:11):
situation, in the ER at first,on the scene at a car accident,
whatever it is that pastors andleaders get put into, oftentimes
with very little training,no-transcript, Um, and where is
it that you are finding?
(40:31):
Um a place to replenish yourself?
Because you're you, as we know,in pastoral ministry, you get
very little notice.
Um, I've said, most of the timenobody calls the pastor after
six o'clock for something good.
So, um, we don't get verylittle notice and I think
pastors have, in a lot ofinstances, very little um little
(40:51):
education on it, but they'rerequired to give it, and so
that's it's a tough place to be,and so it's.
Where are the places you're notonly replenishing yourself, but
where can you go and geteducation?
Where can you go and get whereyou feel more equipped with
what's out there?
Where you feel more equippedwith what's out there, and
(41:12):
that's part of why I'm a memberof ADEC, association for Death
Education and Counseling forongoing education in what's new,
what's happening in this field,just like any other field, it
changes as time goes on, and sowhat are some places to equip
yourself and get rest?
Speaker 1 (41:29):
Hey, I love that Beautiful words of wisdom.
I would.
I'm just going to double downon the need for rest.
Take your Sabbath.
I do coaching Sunday's, notyour Sabbath man.
Probably not Saturday either,because you're prepping for
Sunday.
So, whether it's Monday orFriday, those are the two kind
of standard days.
Shut it off and I'm talking tomyself right now.
(41:51):
But everything is I mean, butit's, everything is just right.
In front of you, I would saySabbath and sabbatical.
Every seven years I get asabbatical and I'm a month away
from taking.
I had one seven years ago andI'm going to be gone for 10, 10
days.
I'm off, I have a off.
What's the language?
I've been coached on this.
(42:14):
I have to kind of detox to offramp.
There we go.
I got to off ramp into mysabbatical and then I have
rhythms that I'm going to besetting up for soul care.
During that time, Obviously,I'm going to be with family and
on some trips and I'm also doingsome fun things like writing
for fun.
You know I got some fictionworks to keep my mind going, but
it's going to go like that.
(42:35):
But if you're a congregationalleader and you don't have a
rhythm of giving your pastor asabbatical every seven years,
really really consider doingthat.
And I can't wait for what comesin the other side how excited I
am to enter back in and see howeverything went.
I'm actually I'm shutting offmy phone access to only a very
(42:56):
few people and I am getting ridof the ability to look at email.
Um, and I'm so excited aboutthat right Cause email is so
reactive.
You get all the and, being whoI am, I get.
Do I really want to open thatemail right now?
What's on the other side ofthat right so just getting to
shut that off?
I'm so excited about that.
Any take on Sabbath andsabbatical and pastor's rhythms?
(43:19):
Julie Lynn.
Speaker 2 (43:20):
Yes, we're big believers in that.
We took a sabbatical at thebeginning of 2023 for three
months and absolutely loved it.
We are so grateful to ourdenomination and our church for
the gift of that time and you're100% right.
We came back fired up to getback in because we had had that
rest.
Additionally, I am the onlyperson in our church that when
(43:42):
Doug has had to do a seven-dayrun because there's been a
funeral, an emergency orwhatever, I'm the one standing
there going where's my day back?
You just worked seven, where'sit coming back?
And so and he knows it's for notonly the good of our marriage,
it's for the good of the churchthere's ripple effects to when
(44:03):
you take a sabbatical and takeintentional rest, and so we're
big believers in that here, andI see that as an important role
in what I do is I'm like okay,where am I getting?
And now he knows, after allthese years in ministry, now he
knows he's like the day's comingback.
I'm taking Monday off.
I'm taking like he knows, andwhat I want for him in that day
(44:27):
is to do things that I know heloves to read books for fun, to
watch a movie, he loves to go tothe gym.
That's what I want for him,because I know those are things
that fill him back up.
Speaker 1 (44:37):
There you go, so a couple closing questions.
You're awesome.
I could talk to you for a longperiod of time.
What's the role?
I started off the podcast withthe role of rituals and kind of
the evolution of rituals in ourculture.
Would you speak to the role ofrituals, seasons of grief,
funerals to help Christiancommunities grieve collectively?
Speaker 2 (44:56):
well, yes, I think it connects with what you and I
were talking about related tocommunity.
So one thing that our communityhere in East Texas does to
collectively as a ritual, ahospice nearby does what they
call love lights at Christmas,and so, if you've ever seen,
they call it luminaria.
In some areas it's like thislittle brown paper bag and
(45:16):
inside they have that littlelight at the bottom and they
take these and they put them allover our little local arboretum
in our town and they honor alife and they read the names
Again.
They read the names aloud,which is so powerful for someone
.
You see, of things likebutterfly releases, balloon
releases.
(45:36):
There's all kinds of things thatyou can do in a grief ritual
planting trees, whatever it isand that's something I talk
about with my clients too,especially if they're going into
year two, year three, and we'lltalk about on this person's
birthday.
What are you going to do?
And you make a plan.
You may not carry it outbecause it may be too hard on
(45:59):
that day, but it's making someplans to honor that life.
I knew a widow where herhusband's favorite cake was
German chocolate cake and on hisbirthday every year she goes
and gets German chocolate cakeand may share it with some
friends that knew him and theytalk about him and share
memories about him and that'spowerful.
Again, it's in community andit's giving people space to sit
(46:23):
in what's not going to be fixedand that's hard for us in the
West to do, because we want tofix it and move on and you can't
fix this.
Wow, because we want to fix itand move on and you can't fix
this.
Speaker 1 (46:30):
Wow, You've given so many awesome resources and
examples.
I'm going to tell my teamalways probably has PTSD from me
sending the email.
Have we thought of this?
There's always more on thegrief journey, so I'm praying
our team does maybe one or two.
We do a lot of amazing things.
(46:50):
Maybe one or two new things tocare for people who are grieving
in our community.
You've been great.
Let's close with this questionwhat's your favorite Jesus story
?
Bible?
Jesus story of Jesus processingloss, grief and death.
Speaker 2 (47:04):
That was an easy.
When I got that question I waslike I love that question John
20, jesus and Mary Magdalene andshe's actually grieving him.
He's died, he's come back tolife and he's standing right in
front of her and she doesn'trecognize him.
And, circling back to what wesaid, he asks questions Woman,
(47:27):
why are you crying?
Who is it that you're lookingfor?
And to me, I get chills talkingabout it.
I'm like that is so powerful.
He could have said so manyother things in that moment in
her tears, but he asks questions, and so to me that's my
favorite.
It was easy.
When you asked me that question.
(47:48):
I'm like that's an easy one forme because it's just him and
her in this moment and it's umthis humility.
He could have said so manythings, but he asked her
questions and leans into thosetears.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:01):
And doesn't he say her name?
Speaker 2 (48:02):
Yes, mary.
Speaker 1 (48:07):
That's.
That's so cool.
Jesus is the best man and I'mrecording this.
Put a timestamp on it.
I'm emotional.
I'm writing our Good Friday andEaster message right now.
This is probably coming outafter that, but Holy Week is the
best.
These rituals from Palm Sundayto Monday, thursday to Good
Friday.
Everything's condensed,everything's intense, and you
(48:29):
know the end of the story thatSunday's coming, but they didn't
know, they couldn't, theycouldn't see in the midst of
their their plans were not God'splans.
You're thinking too small, guys.
I got, I got plans for theworld, for the cosmos, and
you're just thinking aboutIsrael and I think of how, you
know, we've got all these, allthese plans and our plans are
very, very small.
(48:50):
And God, since we're connectedto the greatest love story of
all time, god's plans are grand,they're huge for you, for the
world, that all would be savedand come to a knowledge of the
risen one, jesus, who says ourname, who claims us in the
waters of baptism by name.
He knows all of our days andhe's orchestrated them all.
So we don't have to be afraidof anything.
(49:12):
Really, though, we get afraidbecause we're human, we're frail
, we're fragile, but sin, deathand the devil have been defeated
.
Our greatest enemy, death, hasbeen defeated because Jesus
lives, and so I'm praying forthe everyday follower of Jesus
just to become more adept,always more to learn, coming
alongside those that aregrieving, to weep and to mourn
(49:34):
with those who weep and mourn,and to remember our loved ones
and to look forward to that daywhen we see Jesus face to face
and our loved ones face to face.
You're a gift to the body ofChrist, julie Lynn.
If people want to connect withyou, how can they do so?
Speaker 2 (49:51):
The easiest way would be over my website, which is
julielynnashleycom.
Speaker 1 (49:56):
Hey, this is the Tim Mullen Podcast.
It's a podcast of the UniteLeadership Collective.
We're looking to learn on thispodcast from people we didn't
even talk about anythingLutheran related.
I'm a Lutheran and I wasdetoxed from all the Lutheran
conversations I get in as amember of the Lutheran Church
Missouri Synod.
I don't even know what part ofthe tribe of the body of Christ
you and your husband areconnected to.
(50:17):
Julie Lynn, would you tell methat?
Speaker 2 (50:19):
You are hanging with the Presbyterians today.
Speaker 1 (50:21):
Okay, well, we agree on the resurrection of Jesus and
the hope that is to come.
So that was really, really fun.
I had a, because I get into alot of different podcasts, julie
Lynn, on things in the churchand in my denomination that are
less fun, actually, than thisconversation was today, even
though we were talking aboutgrief and loss.
(50:42):
This was so delightful.
You're a gift and pleasecomment.
Hopefully this podcast washelpful for you.
Send it to a friend who'swalking through grief, send it
to caregivers.
We are all wounded healers andthe only balm for our wounds is
Jesus, so let's share the loveof Jesus as the body of Christ.
It's a good day.
Go make it a great day.
(51:03):
Thanks so much, julie Lynn.
Speaker 2 (51:04):
Thank you.
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