May 14, 2025 • 43 mins
What if our cultural moment isn't "post-Christian" but rather "pre-Christian"? This shift in perspective could transform how we approach ministry and evangelism in today's secular world.
Dr. Dean Nadasdy, President Emeritus of the Minnesota South District of the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, draws from decades of ministry experience to share insights on effective leadership and evangelism. His pastoral wisdom challenges us to reconsider how we approach relationship-building, lay mobilization, and gospel communication in today's church context.
• Relationships remain the most enduring aspect of ministry—contrary to the advice not to befriend church members
• Equipping laity for servant ministry through intentional systems helped Woodbury Lutheran achieve roughly 66% member participation
• The apprenticeship model paired new volunteers with experienced ministry leaders to ensure smooth transitions and proper training
• Clergy dominance can prevent lay people from fulfilling their calling to serve in Christ's mission
• The "bound, burdened, broken" framework provides a practical approach to contextualizing the gospel for specific needs
• Stories engage emotions in ways propositional truth alone cannot, making them powerful tools for gospel communication
• Modern parables can effectively communicate timeless truths to contemporary audiences
• Shifting from a "post-Christian" to "pre-Christian" mindset transforms our outlook from defeat to opportunity
• Our Lutheran theological foundation—commitment to Scripture, grace-centered theology, and Christ-focused proclamation—positions us uniquely for effective ministry
• Vibrant communities driven by mission, not institutional structures, will attract those seeking authentic spiritual connection
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to the Tim Allman Podcast.
It's a great day to be alive.
I get the privilege today toone.
Invite you to rest in youridentity and the joy that Jesus
has over you.
He smiles over you and yourwork, whatever your vocation is,
and feel free to smile back.
Today I get to hang out withReverend Dr Dean Natasty.
I have been highly, highlyrespectful of this man and his
(00:28):
work and honoring of this manand his work over the years.
If you don't know, reverend DrDean Natasty he retired in 2008,
.
President Emeritus of theMinnesota South District of the
Lutheran Church, missouri Synod.
His parish experience includespastorates at Woodbury Lutheran
Church.
Shout out to my friend TommyFotenauer.
He's been on the podcast beforeand he was there at.
(00:52):
Woodbury from 2000 to 2012.
Well, tom's the best right.
Dean's academic degrees includethe following BA in English at
Concordia Senior College oh,that goes back Fort Wayne,
indiana.
And MDiv from Concordia SeniorCollege oh, that goes back Fort
Wayne, indiana.
An MDiv from Concordia Seminaryin St Louis.
An MA in political sciencethat's pretty cool From SLU
(01:14):
University of Missouri in StLouis and, man, a doctorate in
literature from ConcordiaUniversity in Nebraska and
Concordia University, st Paul.
You've been around theConcordia world there, dr Mattis
, for sure, haven't you?
Well, before we get going, Imean, you have so many.
I could list all of the bookshe's not just read that would be
(01:34):
very long but written, evenwith CPH, and this is going to
be a lot of fun today, drNatassi, how are you doing,
brother?
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Good, Great to be with you.
I've not done a lot of podcast,so this is.
I'm an old guy, so this is anew experience for me.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Well, thank you, and you're a gift man, this is going
to be great.
So let's go back a little bit.
I mean, you've been, I guess,out of the parish experience
full-time for over a decade now,is that right?
Speaker 2 (02:02):
2018, I retired being a district president yeah,
2012,.
I went from Woodbury Lutheranto be a.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
DP.
Yeah well, thank you forserving as a district president.
What are your top two or threememories of leading a local
church over the decades?
What did you love the most?
Speaker 2 (02:19):
as you just look back , Well, it is interesting that
when I look back what lingerswith me are the relationships,
relationships with staff people,with lay leaders and just with
the members of the church.
My closest friendships in mylife to my adult lifetime have
been in the church.
We were told not to makefriends with our members, but I
(02:41):
wouldn't have had any friends ifI hadn't had those
relationships.
So the relationships lingermost, I suppose.
Then too I was always strong onemphasizing equipping the laity
for servant ministry.
So education we did a lot withadult Bible study.
I was from the era where we didthe Bethel Bible series and
(03:03):
crossways and so forth.
I can remember at Woodburydoing 100 verses in 100 days
where members were invited tomemorize a scripture verse every
day for 100 days and they wereheld their feet to the fire by
being partnered with othermembers.
That was interesting because Iremember we had kids who held
(03:24):
their parents accountable formemorizing scripture, which is
kind of a reversal.
It was kind of a nice reversal.
So that was a big deal.
The education thing.
Thirdly, I think, just theemphasis on the arts.
I was big on theater and dramaand we had a standing drama team
every year for a lot of years.
And then the visual artsfestivals that we did, where we
would hang the art in thesanctuary and then I would use
(03:45):
the art?
Um in my preaching.
I'd preach from different artpieces and pray from different
art pieces um.
So those three thingsrelationships, education and the
arts that's a great summary.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
I I, if you know're we're just a couple of decades
apart, but I think even now,pushing 20 years, I'm going to
look back and have it be very,very similar to that focus.
It's all about the people.
And going back to what you saidabout relationships, I don't
know if that's the best adviceto say never have friends in the
church.
(04:21):
What words of wisdom?
I don't think it is.
Yeah, what words of wisdom doyou give, though?
Because there is a line and youcan kind of cross it, and the
pastoral ministry is an officeto be respected, to be sure, but
at the same time it's you'reaccessible, I think of the
ministry of Jesus, right?
I mean, he was accessible.
You call me teacher and rabbi.
I guess I am, but I've calledyou friends, right?
(04:46):
He had friends with theapostles, and so especially with
like, we're a larger church,woodbury was a larger church.
You can't be like close,intimate friends with two, three
, 400, there are 4,000 people,for goodness sake, right?
But you certainly can have kindof an inner circle and an outer
circle and a circle that you'remobilizing, equipping and
training.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
What words of wisdom do you give?
That's the Jesus model forfriendship.
That's the Jesus model forfriendship is that inner circle?
And it doesn't mean thatthere's a power circle, it just
means that there are people withwhom you're especially
vulnerable and you hold yourselfaccountable.
I always had an accountabilityteam that I worked with to hold
my feet to the fire in terms ofbeing faithful in ministry and
(05:26):
honoring the goals that thecongregation had set.
So, yeah, I think therelationships are at the core of
any ministry, and that'scertainly been true in my
ministry.
I don't remember now why Iwould stay up in the middle of
the night worrying over avoters' meeting coming up.
I don't even remember whatthose voters' meeting struggles
were about, but I do rememberthe relationships and they're
(05:47):
just, they're treasures in myheart.
People that I worked with.
God gave me great people,especially lay people, but also
staff.
I surrounded myself or I shouldsay God surrounded me with some
tremendous people that reallymade the ministry work, love
that I think you were known formemorizing names.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Don't you have an exceptional ability to memorize
names of people?
I don't know where that started.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
I've heard that before, but I don't know if I
agree.
At Woodbury there were 4,000members and I could name 3,000
of them, but there were 1,000that I.
It was beyond me to get all ofthem.
I'm fairly good with names, butI'm not great with names.
I know others who are betterthan I with calling people by
their first name.
Nowadays everybody grabs a nametag when they go into our church
(06:34):
.
I'm still a member at WoodburyLutheran, so everybody has a
name tag on, which makes itwonderful for communion, and
when you meet somebody you cancall them out by name, which is
super.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Yeah, we're doing name tags as well, but I will
say 3,000 out of 4,000 is prettygood, dr Natasty.
So tell us a little bit aboutwhat you did with Lay Leadership
Development.
This is a podcast of the UnitedLeadership Collective.
We talk about leadership a lot.
Can you think back to some ofthe most winsome ways you were
trying to raise up leaders fromwithin the congregation?
(07:06):
What were some of thosestrategies and attempts,
especially around theologicalformation, dr Nadesi?
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Right?
Well, I think for us it wasmore oriented towards servant
ministries.
We brought on a full timedirector of servant ministry.
So when you came into ourchurch there was an inventory
you did on spiritual gifts andthe your preferences in terms of
where you'd like to serve inthe church.
And then we had every positionhad an apprentice.
So you were assigned to aperson who held that position in
(07:34):
the church as servant ministry.
So my, let's say, it's an audiotech and you spent several
months as an apprentice to thatperson.
Then you moved into an audiotech position and we tried to do
that with everybody who cameinto the church.
We're very intentional aboutfinding their strengths, their
gifts, where they wanted toserve and making sure they
served.
And I forget the number, but atWoodbury Lutheran especially,
(07:55):
the number was huge in terms ofthe percentage of people.
I think it was like two thirdsof our members were heavily
involved in some form of servantministry in the church.
And then the education thingtagged on to that, that while
they're serving you're alsoequipping them for service in
the church.
And that's done through smallgroup Bible study primarily, but
also large group studies thatwe had.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
How much weight do you give to your servant
leadership development kind ofinvitation, your apprenticeship
to theological formation?
How much credit do you givethat attempt to the growth that
Woodbury Lutheran have?
How intimately connected or notdo you think was that
invitation?
Because two-thirds serving isextraordinary, I think in many
(08:37):
churches Dr Mattis, praise God.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Yeah, I think it's significant.
I think there was a surpriseelement to it.
When people came into thechurch they were surprised that
there was an expectation of this.
But then if you can match themto a ministry where they're
truly gifted and there arehundreds of ministries in a
large church that they can takeon it's really fulfilling and
(09:01):
probably that moves over to acontagion that they share how
fulfilled they are in theirministry at the church and leads
to other people coming.
I don't have any stats on that,but I'm sure it works that way.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
Well, yeah, and what we've noticed is a good next
step after worship.
They've been with us two, threetimes.
You get them into either a meetthe pastor, a start here,
whatever you want to call itinto, a and maybe a six weeker
in terms of who we are and whatwe believe we call it belong
into, engage Like.
(09:32):
People are eager and the firstthing after like, as we get them
into that sort of a journey, isto talk about service.
For many years we were talkingsmall group, but now we talk we
want people to be in small group, to be sure, but service is one
of the first invitations out ofthat sort of onboarding
experience into who we are andwhere we're going as a ministry.
(09:54):
Did you find the same thing?
I mean, it's a lot aboutservice because you meet people
on these respective serve teamsand then relationships develop
pretty naturally.
Is that what you found, drNadasi?
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Very, very much so I think.
Otherwise there's this flounderthing that happens that you're
there in worship and maybeyou're not there in worship and
you kind of get lost in the mazeof a large church.
So, finding something thattruly is servant-oriented, and
you have to have the theologyunderpinning that that it's
Christ-like servanthood.
So we're using Christ as ourmodel for that and our
(10:23):
motivation.
We want to serve him and sothat becomes a vehicle for
really fulfillment.
It's not about fulfillment,it's really being more and more
like Christ.
It's who I am.
I want to be more and more likeJesus.
That drives the ministry.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
You mentioned identity.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
We were talking before we got together.
You mentioned identity, andthat's just crucial.
I think that we need to knowwho we are, and our identity is
primarily that of a servant, aChristlike servant.
Yes, Amen.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
Well, you've lived that out your entire life.
Praise be to God.
So what are the top two orthree as you look right now,
2025, what are the top two orthree biggest differences today
in leading as a pastor?
And we got pastors listening,but a number of lay leaders
listening as well, and so thisis maybe helpful for them as
they pray for care, for lovetheir pastor.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
What are the biggest differences today than maybe
when you first began in ministry, dr Nassi?
Well, I have a sense that overthe course of the years my
ordination was in 1973, so50-some years pass and I see a
clergy dominance, particularlyin the LCMS now, that doesn't
recognize the value and thenecessity of enlisting the laity
(11:36):
in the mission of the church.
So that's something that'schanged.
I didn't sense thisoverwhelming centrality of
clergy in the life of the churchand that's in no way showing
lack of respect for the office.
I have tremendous respect forthe office of pastor, but I
think too many churches in ourtradition are run by pastors and
(11:56):
there's not enough opportunityfor lay people to serve.
I think worship is morechallenging these days than it
was.
I have a feeling that maybewe're by the worship wars in the
LCMS.
I think worship is morechallenging these days than it
was.
I have a feeling that maybewe're by the worship wars in the
LCMS, but there's still thisdivision.
I love contemporary Christianmusic, but I'm also concerned
(12:25):
about losing the ordo.
You know the order of worshipthat's been there since 150 AD
with Justin Martyr.
You have signs of the samesequence of events during
worship.
So worship's gotten to be a bitmore complicated.
And then I think, in terms ofpastors again, I don't sense the
mutuality and the collegialitythat we had 50 years ago.
We could duke it out at aWinkle at a pastor's conference
(12:48):
and then still go out and have abeer together.
I'm not sure that's the caseanymore.
I think there's a divisionamong clergy that isn't very
healthy and there's an isolation.
The loneliness of ministry hasbeen there for a long time, but
it just seems to be even more sothat too many pastors are
trying to do it on their own,without the support they need.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
That's a sobering list.
I pray for engagement of thelaity this podcast.
We talk a lot about the RoyalPriesthood of All Believers and
I'm an active pastor that getsthe privilege of having hundreds
of leaders who are around me.
And that's just because it's alarger church.
If you're in a church of 100,hopefully you at least have 10
(13:29):
to 15 kind of key leaders whoare around you, lifting up your
arms, caring for you, prayingfor you, partnering with you,
carrying out the ministry andall of the tasks.
You know that you think of thedeacons, the deacon type tasks
that need to get done within thechurch.
If there's a pastor, that'slike in a smaller church and he
feels like man.
I got to be all things toeveryone and maybe even
(13:52):
justifying it according toPaul's words.
That's just a heavy, heavyburden.
And Jesus came to give us alight yoke.
His touch is light and if Jesusactively I just preached on
this just yesterday.
I come back to Luke 9 and Luke10, the sending of the 12 and
the 70.
And it happens in Mark 2, rightbefore Jesus feeds the 5,000.
(14:12):
And right out of that kind of ahumorous thing, dr Nadesi, was
Jesus just sent them to proclaimthe kingdom to heal the sick
and to cast out demons, and theydo, and they come back to cast
out demons, and they do, andthey come back.
And then Jesus moves into thisbig quandary of feeding 5,000
plus people out in the midst ofa desolate place and says you
give them something to eat.
(14:32):
And their mind immediately goesto there's no way we could
possibly, you know, like ourpastor's, inviting partners,
others to come alongside them todo the work with them, because
I'm in a context right now.
It's so much fun Our leadershipdevelopment, all the way up to
Vickers and potential futurepastors.
It just is.
I don't know why we'd want todo it any other way.
(14:54):
And I think a lot of timespastors are living with, yes,
because of social media and theinternet and you can see and
listen to preaching.
So the comparison, thecompetition which is the thief
of joy, right, that's just sopalpable.
And then what I've experiencedin our denomination I imagine it
happens in other, in othertribes as well is an ever
(15:16):
increasing tribal nature aroundpeople who agree with absolutely
everything that you do and youagree with absolutely everything
that that they, which to me, drnatasy, sounds very boring like
I want people to challenge it's.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
The same thing goes on politically in the nation.
People get only hear what theywant to hear from the people
around them that they want to bewith, and that's that's
separation from the world.
That's not being in the world,and we need to be in the world,
not of, but in it for sure.
I think.
The other thing is I think thedominance of clergy trying to go
it alone cheats laypeople ofthe opportunity to serve the
(15:51):
Lord, and that's really sad thatwe're cheating laypeople of
their opportunity to serve whenwe try to do it all and just
think of the ministry that couldbe done if we mobilize the
laity in every congregation.
It'd be amazing to see thelaity take over.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
It is amazing.
It is amazing and unfortunately, to your point.
On the one hand, I think we'reby I guess you will the worship
struggles, and I think where weneed to agree with those that
have only organ and only hymnal,where we need to agree is on
(16:27):
the ordo.
100%, a hundred percent.
I'm with you there.
The scripture doesn't sayanything about drums and guitars
and things like that.
I love that we're writing moreJesus centered, confessional
Lutheran songs now Shout out tothe songwriters initiative is
invocation through benedictionand everything that kind of goes
in between confession,absolution, obviously, the
(16:56):
sacraments, the Lord's Supper,you know, and I'm a fan of the
Lord's Supper as consistently asyou can possibly have it for
the edification of our faith,the forgiveness of our sins.
I say more there around.
I think this is where we shouldand could unite, I think in the
LCMS, dr.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
Nance, I think.
Several years ago, when I wason the Council of Presidents, we
came out with a statement thatwe all agreed on it, which is
very rare on worship andbasically the substance of the
statement was what matters isthe ordo and I think leadership
in the Missouri Senate hasstayed with that idea that we
want to see the ordo honored.
And if we can do that, if wecan honor the sequence of events
(17:33):
which is, it's just masterfulto see the flow of a worship
service through the traditionalordo, if we can all agree on
that, that's really something torejoice in.
And the style of worship, themusic used, the instruments used
, I think that's a matter oftaste.
It's going to vary from churchto church, from person to person
(17:53):
, that's very evidently,adiaphora.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
We need to do a better job, I think, Dean, of
listening to one another.
You talk a lot about listening.
I believe it is a skill thatcan be deepened.
So talk about the three primaryneeds of those we listen to.
You say they're either bound,burdened or broken.
Would you kind of take us toschool in the art of listening,
Dr Natasty?
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Yeah, I'm really big on listening.
I think that a place where thatcould begin would be in worship
itself.
I remember, as a districtpresident, visiting churches
that were calling and the numberone thing they wanted in a
pastor which I heard over andover again was we want a dynamic
preacher.
Well, I got so tired of hearingthat.
Finally, I said to these groupsyou know, what we preachers are
(18:37):
interested in is dynamiclisteners.
We'd like some people out therewho are actually listening.
Listening dynamically, whichmeans bringing your needs to
that sermon, preparing for thesermon by reading the text ahead
of time, talking about thesermon before it's even given,
but to give the sermon some lifeand really truly listening with
my needs in mind as I listen toa sermon.
That said, the other thing thatI like to talk about is gospel
(19:01):
listening listening with a heartfor sharing the gospel.
So a lot of times our peoplearen't ready to share the gospel
because they don't have anapparatus for it, and so I don't
know where I picked it up.
I don't think it's originalwith me, but somewhere along the
line I picked up this idea thatevery person's needs can be
summarized in three wordsthey're either bound, burdened
(19:23):
or broken.
Now, for each of those there'sa gospel message.
So if the person I'm listeningand it sounds like they're
talking about being addicted andtied up and they can't get out
of this mess they're in, that'sbeing bound, and the gospel
message is going to be one offreedom, of being set loose.
So I'm going to frame myevangelistic conversation with
(19:43):
the gospel message for them thattalks about being free.
If I'm burdened, burdened withgrief, burdened with overwork,
burdened with a load that just Ican't get rid of, then the
gospel message is going to berest in Christ, he promises us
come to me all you who are weary, and I will give you rest.
So the whole idea of relief andrest would be my gospel message
(20:06):
for the burdened, for the broken, that person who's broken in
relationships, who's a brokenperson who lost their wholeness
Well, the gospel there iswholeness.
It's peace, peace andrelationship, especially for
those who are in brokenrelationships.
I've challenged Bible studygroups to see if they could come
up with a need that doesn't fitinto one of those three
(20:27):
categories.
It's pretty hard and the reasonyou're using this I call it an
apparatus is that it has youready to witness, because you're
listening.
Where do you fit and whatgospel do you need?
Because the gospel is a jewelthat just rotates in all of its
fine shining points and to knowthat I've got a lot of
(20:49):
opportunity here for witness,but I need to vector in on this
person's specific needs.
That's gospel listening.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
Hey, listener, if you're not taking notes right
now, I don't know what's goingon.
If you're driving, don't takenotes for sure, but you need to
go back.
And that is such a marveloushandle for evangelical
proclamation in everydayconversations.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
I like the word handle.
You borrowed that word handle.
It's a three-handle.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Like you've never said that, dr, this is so much
fun.
Well, you do a lot of workaround preaching and what I've
loved about your preaching stylewhich we're different I would
be probably louder, that's kindof how Jesus made me but you're
very storied, you're relationaland you're working on a book
(21:41):
right now called the Power ofParables, and would you connect,
maybe, story to listening?
I don't know if that's, Ididn't ask you this question,
but is there something aroundlistening to a person's story
deeply that unlocks one of thosethree Bs bound, burdened or
broken that allows then maybethe story of Scripture, the
(22:03):
power of Jesus' parables, tocome alive and even use that as
a gospel?
Handle, dr Natasy, anything tosay there.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
Handle, dr Nadesi, anything to say there yeah, if I
focus on personal evangelism,what are the stories from my
life that make a difference formy witness and what are the
stories that I have that have todo with being bound or broken
or burdened, my personal stories?
Those are crucial for personalwitness.
In terms of preaching, I thinkJesus understood the power of
(22:32):
parable, the power of story thatit takes a plot line and along
the way one begins to seeconnections with the faith, with
the truth.
I think it was Emily Dickinsonwho talked about telling it
slant that sometimes it's notgood enough to just list three
propositional truths from a text.
(22:53):
It's not good enough to justlist three propositional truths
from a text.
It's more important, probablyto get people ready to learn
those three propositional truthsby listening to a story that's
significant.
And these need to be storiesthat are kind of along-the-way
stories.
Jesus told his parables.
Think of Luke, the travelnarrative in Luke going to
Jerusalem that's where we getthese wonderful—think of Luke 15
, the lost parables.
(23:14):
Those are on-the-way stories.
They're stories that we'removing, we're in life together
and we're recalling or we'remaking up a story.
I love to create a parablethat's more contemporary, that
kind of reflects the truths ofparables that Jesus told, and
that's what I'm trying to workon.
What do contemporary parablessound like, look like, and how
(23:36):
can we use contemporary storiesto do the same thing that Jesus'
stories do?
But they need to be connectedto the Word.
Homiletics got kind of divertedfor about 20 years or so into
narrative preaching, which was,you know, a guy would get up and
all he'd do is tell a story andleft it to everybody else to
figure out what it was.
Well, jesus rarely did that.
Sometimes he did that, but thatdoesn't work real well.
(23:57):
I think we came back to theneed.
We're preaching truth here.
What we want to do iscommunicate truth, but the way
to get people ready for that isto get them engaged with story.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
Well, yes, 100% agree .
I guess that predates my timein preaching.
I agree, I guess that predatesmy time in preaching.
Story in my learning was alwaystoward gospel proclamation on
foundational law, gospel, truth.
You know I don't know with withDr Schmidt or or, yeah, anyone,
that I learned from that.
(24:28):
That was one narrative.
Preaching was definitely a toolin the tool belt, if you will,
but it was always toward,whether it's inductive or
deductive, it was always towarda very clear proclamation of
foundational truth, law andgospel.
So that's, that's it Go ahead.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
Our tradition is so strong on truth that we didn't
fall into that trap.
I don't think there are veryfew purely narrative preachers
in the LCMS.
There might have been a few,but very few, because our
training didn't allow for that,as you just said yeah, no, I
think so that's good.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
So would you tell a contemporary parable that the
listener because I know you'reworking on this, the Power of
Parables would you just give usone example?
Speaker 2 (25:10):
of a contemporary parable yeah, I'm working on one
this morning that and I don'thave the storyline completely
filled in.
But the storyline is basicallythat of a mother and daughter
who have deep resentment witheach other over something that
happened in the daughter'steenage years, and the story
unfolds as that resentment leadsto the daughter.
(25:31):
The resentment is in her heart.
She gets deeper and deeper intotrouble, and I'm at the point
of resolution here.
How do I resolve their trouble?
Well, the text is theresentment that grows deep
within us when our heart getsfull of resentment, and also the
idea of the unforgiving, thecost of unforgiveness in our
(25:53):
lives.
I just heard a great sermon atour church on unforgiveness, and
so that prompted this.
What's a story?
And I think rooting it in amother-daughter relationship
rather than a father-son is kindof appealing to me because it
kind of breaks the mold offather-son.
So that's just a and that's inprocess.
I could have given you one thatI got all filled out, but
you've heard some of those Ithink I have.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
So there's a lot of people, leaders, theologians and
philosophers who are talkingaround the power of story,
rather than just propositionaltruth, for changing the human
heart.
What is it about story thatultimately connects, transforms,
mobilizes us for love and gooddeeds as Jesus followers?
Speaker 2 (26:37):
Dr Mattis, Well, I think there's no question that
it's the affect of a good story.
It's how it engages theemotions that we're so heady
sometimes in our preaching andit's wonderful.
I mean, we're great on truthlaying out truth.
We do a great job with that.
Wonderful, I mean, we're greaton truth laying out truth.
We do a great job with that.
But to bring the heart to thatin the book I did on the
(26:57):
beautiful sermon, one of thebeautiful things about a sermon,
when it's working, is that itengages both head and heart.
It's both cognition andaffection, and so it's not
uncommon, I mean, for pastorswho are good storytellers, to
see people dropping tears duringtheir sermon.
It's because that storyconnects with them.
We used to have a weepers clubat one of the churches I served.
(27:19):
I always kidded them mostlywomen who would cry every other
sermon and usually it came at apoint of a story that just
touched their hearts.
So that's the power of story itbrings affect and it doesn't
hit people in the face withtruth no-transcript of the
(27:59):
fascinating things to me is tocontemplate.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
for almost 300 years the Christian church didn't have
the Bible as we know it today.
Right, it was.
It was a gospel here, a gospelthere, an epistle here, an
epistle there.
And how did they know?
How did they know what was true?
It's because it was connectedto who Jesus was and what he'd
done.
And I love John.
Right, if all of the storiesare written, all the books
(28:25):
couldn't contain.
There's more that we could havesaid.
But these things are writtenthat you may believe that Jesus
is the Christ, the son of theliving God, and that by
believing he may have, you mayhave life in his name.
I mean stories give stories,give life, right, and I think
this is the heart of evangelismfor today.
Who cares what I think the HolySpirit thinks like?
Tell a good story that connectspeople to the heart and mind
(28:47):
and the love that God has for usin the person and work of Jesus
, anything more to say there, drNattis.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Well, the story needs to have the ring of truth to it
too.
It can be a made-up story.
I'm not sure all of Jesus'parables actually were historic
events that happened, like theprodigal son and so forth the
two sons of one dad but theyneed to have the ring of truth
to them.
That's really important as wellas you tell the story.
The other thing about storiesthat I found is every church has
(29:23):
its own stories too that belongto the oral tradition of that
church.
And I can remember at Woodbury,the founding pastor of Woodbury,
his mother-in-law, said to himwell, the problem with you is
you'll let anybody into yourchurch.
Well, that became a story thatgot told over and over again,
because he did.
He welcomed sinners into thechurch and it was just a great
(29:43):
story.
I used it several times,probably too often, because it
was so powerful.
You'll let anybody in andthere's a plot line with the
story and so forth, but thatmakes the point.
Every church has its ownstories that need to be honored
as well and recalled, not juston anniversary years but
repeatedly, to keep thosestories alive in the life of the
(30:04):
church.
So good.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
Last couple questions here.
I don't normally do this on mypodcast, but since your entire
ministry has been in theLutheran Church Missouri Synod,
what are the top three threatsto our life together right now?
Do you think Dr Natasty in theLCMS?
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Well, I'd say, first of all, probably the lack of
Christlike servant leadershipflourishing in our congregations
.
We've talked about that, theneed to get lay people mobilized
.
Pastors are still their leader,but the pastor is responsible
to multiply ministry in thischurch.
So that would be one of them.
A second one would be and I'veharped on this for too many
(30:41):
years it's just confusing endswith means, or confusing means
with ends, I guess, is better.
So those in our church whoseheart I'm sure is true who say
the mission of the church is topresent Word and Sacrament in
worship, that's the mission ofthe church.
Well, that's not the mission ofthe church.
That's the means, that's theempowering of the mission of the
(31:02):
church.
The mission of the church is tomake disciples, to multiply
disciples.
So the confusion of the means,which is where we get our
strength from the Word andsacrament, that's a means, it's
not an end in itself.
That's been around in ourtradition for a long time and I
think that's kind of tragic thatit is, and one that I'll just
(31:23):
highlight that I think isoutside of the Missouri Synod I
think the church generally isfacing this is this
neo-gnosticism thing of.
I'm a secular spiritual person.
I don't need the institutionalchurch.
I think some of it's agenerational thing, but I worry
about the institutional churchas it represents the invisible
(31:48):
church of Christ.
Where is that heading in a timewhen being spiritual seems to
be enough for people?
Those are three threats.
That's a great list, yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
That's a really great list.
To the last one, as a guythat's still kind of in the
trenches right now.
I think that's shifting the lieof the enemy that I can follow
Jesus or maybe just follow aspirit or out in creation or
apart from gathered group ofpeople.
(32:21):
I think that lie is beingexposed right now by the Holy
Spirit and we're I mean this isjust one signpost and again,
we're a fast growing communitybut many of the people who are
coming into our church one, they, they, they don't have a long
history, like maybe it's aparent or grandparent who are
connected to a Catholic churchor something like that they have
(32:44):
.
I'm just thinking of one familyI just met for the second time.
They came back for the secondtime.
They've never, they've neverbeen a part of a local church
and they have an eight and asix-year-old, a girl and a boy,
and he's never so she has thiskind of Catholic background and
he is completely a nun,n-o-n-e-s right, no spiritual
(33:06):
foundation.
But there's this heart cry andthere's a friend who invited
them multiple times overmultiple years and they finally
came and they're coming back.
It's unbelievable.
So for us we have 61.
And I bet Woodbury is similar,and if you're in an urban
suburban area that happens to begrowing, like ours, I bet
(33:28):
you're experiencing similartrends.
We have 61 documentedfirst-time guests in two and a
half weeks in the month of March, dr Nasty.
Wow, that's fantastic, andthat's that's people that let us
know they're they're here.
There's many others that don'teven let us know they're here.
So, like there's never been agreater opportunity in my, in
(33:51):
almost two decades of ministry,for us to invite and give tools
and handles and invitation toour members, to invite their
friends and neighbors and familymembers who are far from Christ
, to come and experience hislove, his care, with a group of
people, namely the visible localchurch.
I think it's a turning pointright now.
(34:11):
Dr Nassi, I'm very very excitedabout this.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
You think it's generational.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
I mean, yeah for sure .
But I think the generationallie that I can be spiritual and
not connected to a group ofpeople I don't even like to use
religious, but spiritual.
And what is the core source ofthat spirituality?
I think the Holy Spirit is atwork.
I know the Holy Spirit is atwork, pointing people to a
desperate need for, ultimately,christ, the crucified and risen
(34:39):
and reigning, one who's quick toreturn to be and maybe this is
a heart cry, and I could be, I'man optimist so I could be kind
of overstating this trend.
I think it's going to take timeand probably multiple
generations.
We're certainly far from aChristian America, to be sure,
but I think the percentage ofpeople who are recognizing,
especially through COVID, rightthings have accelerated.
(35:00):
Dysfunction has accelerated,addiction, despair, you know,
being a slave to your phone anda slave to your all these things
are kind of accelerating.
That, I think, are leading manyto a point to say maybe I'll
give that Jesus guy a try.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
And that's the case.
Yeah, praise God.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
Yeah, yeah.
Are you seeing that in yourcontext at?
Speaker 2 (35:20):
all, I think for me it is somewhat generational.
I'm seeing a lot of youngerpeople expressing interest in
the church.
It's that our kids.
Well, kids that are 18 to 25,that age group, Is that Gen Z?
I don't know if I have all thatright or not.
No, that's right, yeah, gen Z Ithink we're more open to the
value of community, even if it'san institutional community.
(35:42):
The thing to do, I think, givenyour optimism, is for the
church to present itself as acommunity of followers of Christ
, not as an institution.
If people see institutionalthings attached to the church,
that's not going to draw themstill, I think.
But I think when there's avibrant community that's that's
driven by its mission, with aleader who's committed to the
(36:05):
mission and has people trulyfollowing that leader, that's
exciting.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
That's exciting.
It's very, it's very exciting.
I'm so pumped for what God isdoing right now.
It's a it's a transitionalseason right now from
post-Christian to pre-Christian,traditional season right now,
from post-Christian topre-Christian and, I think, from
maybe hostile and suspicious ofthe gospel to more curious and
open.
I think we're seeing that shiftand that whole shift is
(36:33):
probably going to be theentirety of the rest of the 20,
30, 40 years, god willing thatthe Lord allows me to be a
communicator of the gospel here.
It's going to be slow, but Ifeel like the flywheel effect
will pick up, especially forthose churches that are open,
that are hospitable, that arekind, that are mission-focused,
that want to be about advancingthe mission of Jesus, that want
(36:55):
to be about training up andequipping the saints for love
and good deeds, to communicateclearly, with a listening heart,
who Jesus is and how much heloves them.
I think the opportunities arethere and I'm praying that the
Lutheran Church Missouri Synodwants to get on that
kingdom-expanding train becauseit's moving down the tracks.
Dr Natasy, it's very exciting.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
I think your post-Christian, pre-christian
thought.
Just on that quickly.
For me as a pastor, it would bemore important to view those
people who are seeking orunchurched or nuns whatever, to
see them as pre-Christian asopposed to post-Christian.
Post-christian has always feltto me and I know there's a lot
of writings on thepost-Christian era that seems
(37:35):
like we've thrown the towel in.
I think it's better to saywe're in a secular society, just
as Jesus was in a secularsociety, and that's
pre-Christian.
It's not there yet, but thatallows for the thought that
we've got an opportunity here tomake them Christian, to have a
mission to this time.
But the idea of post-Christianhas never appealed to me very
much, so I'm glad you see amovement away from it.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
You should be talking pre-Christian in our language.
Language matters.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
Yeah.
And are we optimistic or are wenegative?
Are we only for ourselves?
And are we fearful andprotective or are we hopeful?
And it appears as if Jesus,when he launched the greatest
movement of all time, was very,very hopeful for a small group
of people radically changing theworld.
(38:24):
And they did, and we continueto, by the Spirit's power
connected to the Word.
Final question as you look atthe Lutheran Church Missouri
Synod, greatest strengths thatyou're like, these strengths
cannot, will never praise.
Be to God by the Spirit's powerbe compromised.
Any thoughts there, dr Vesey?
Speaker 2 (38:42):
That one's kind of an easy one in terms of strengths,
no question.
But we're blessed to be in adenomination that is completely
committed to the inspiration andheresy of the Scriptures, that
we really are rooted in the Wordof God, scripture alone.
Then I'd add to that the otheralone.
They're all important, but thegrace theology that we have is
(39:07):
tremendous.
The Christ-centered theology,the preeminent Christ, all of
that is so crucial the biblicalliteracy that's been there
traditionally within the LCMS,that people who've been raised
in the LCMS generally are morebiblically literate than those
who are from outside.
I think that has been true butcontinues to be true.
(39:30):
I worry sometimes about the lackof significant Bible study in a
lot of our churches.
We have too many churches thatdon't even have Bible study
going, so they have to depend onthe pastor's sermon to be the
Bible study they get.
I hope something can happenwith that, but still, biblical
literacy would be a strength.
And then our emphasis oneducation historically has been
(39:51):
amazing.
From the beginning we wereoften starting schools before we
started the church.
We were interested in educatingstudents and that gave birth to
the Concordia University systemand all of the blessings that
have come through that.
I'm a product of two of thosethree of those schools, two of
(40:12):
which are closed now.
So anyway, I guess primarilythe beauty and the depth to
which we take our study of theWord has been a strength of the
church For sure, and that willnot stop.
Speaker 1 (40:29):
We did a podcast recently, Jack and I, on Lead
Time.
The other podcast we do on thePew Research study that just
came out, around 20.
20, it's declining.
People who read in the LCMS,the Bible, one time a week or
more, went from like 33% and youcan fact check me on this,
(40:52):
something like this to 25.
I remember the 25% to 25% ofour members.
So there are some decliningstatistics regarding prayer and
time in the word.
But from a leadershipperspective and I think from a
pastoral and pastoral trainingperspective, we're a people
deeply committed to the word andI pray, we invite all of the
priesthood, of all believers, tobe committed to being in the
(41:13):
word, to be storied and thensent by the word of God.
Hey, Dr Natasy, this is great.
We're at time.
I've had so much fun getting toknow you better.
Thank you for your generosity,for your kindness, for your
courage and leadership downthrough the years.
How can people connect with you?
And you know, if you want topromote a book or two, feel free
to do so now.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
Well, the Beautiful Sermon book has just been out a
couple of years.
That's really written forpastors to engage visual arts in
their preaching but also torecognize the importance of a
beautiful sermon.
That is, a sermon that has theelements of beauty from God to
Christ, to the gospel, to wementioned head and heart.
These are things that make asermon truly beautiful.
(41:54):
And the book lays out some ofthe elements of beauty in a
sermon and introduces especiallyart pastors in our tradition to
aesthetic theology because wehave no training in the theology
of beauty.
So the book is titled theBeautiful Sermon.
Concordia Seminary Press put itout but you can get it on
Amazon.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
Love that, Love that.
If people want to reach out toyou email, is that something you
can give?
Speaker 2 (42:17):
Dean Nadistee at gmailcom.
Dean Nadistee at gmailcom.
Speaker 1 (42:22):
Love it.
This is the Tim Allman Podcast.
Like, subscribe, comment.
Wherever it is you take inthese conversations and we pray
that joy and hope, listening anda desire to hear stories and
connect those stories to thegreatest story of all time,
which is God's love for us inthe person of Jesus Christ,
would be what is most beautifulin our head and in our hearts
(42:44):
and something that leads us tolive it out and proclaim it.
Thank you, dr Natasy.
It's a good day.
Go make it a great day.
You're a gift brother.
Speaker 2 (42:51):
Thanks, tim Blessings , thank you.
Welcome to the Tim Allman Podcast.
It's a great day to be alive.
I get the privilege today toone.
Invite you to rest in youridentity and the joy that Jesus
has over you.
He smiles over you and yourwork, whatever your vocation is,
and feel free to smile back.
Today I get to hang out withReverend Dr Dean Natasty.
I have been highly, highlyrespectful of this man and his
(00:28):
work and honoring of this manand his work over the years.
If you don't know, reverend DrDean Natasty he retired in 2008,
.
President Emeritus of theMinnesota South District of the
Lutheran Church, missouri Synod.
His parish experience includespastorates at Woodbury Lutheran
Church.
Shout out to my friend TommyFotenauer.
He's been on the podcast beforeand he was there at.
(00:52):
Woodbury from 2000 to 2012.
Well, tom's the best right.
Dean's academic degrees includethe following BA in English at
Concordia Senior College oh,that goes back Fort Wayne,
indiana.
And MDiv from Concordia SeniorCollege oh, that goes back Fort
Wayne, indiana.
An MDiv from Concordia Seminaryin St Louis.
An MA in political sciencethat's pretty cool From SLU
(01:14):
University of Missouri in StLouis and, man, a doctorate in
literature from ConcordiaUniversity in Nebraska and
Concordia University, st Paul.
You've been around theConcordia world there, dr Mattis
, for sure, haven't you?
Well, before we get going, Imean, you have so many.
I could list all of the bookshe's not just read that would be
(01:34):
very long but written, evenwith CPH, and this is going to
be a lot of fun today, drNatassi, how are you doing,
brother?
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Good, Great to be with you.
I've not done a lot of podcast,so this is.
I'm an old guy, so this is anew experience for me.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Well, thank you, and you're a gift man, this is going
to be great.
So let's go back a little bit.
I mean, you've been, I guess,out of the parish experience
full-time for over a decade now,is that right?
Speaker 2 (02:02):
2018, I retired being a district president yeah,
2012,.
I went from Woodbury Lutheranto be a.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
DP.
Yeah well, thank you forserving as a district president.
What are your top two or threememories of leading a local
church over the decades?
What did you love the most?
Speaker 2 (02:19):
as you just look back , Well, it is interesting that
when I look back what lingerswith me are the relationships,
relationships with staff people,with lay leaders and just with
the members of the church.
My closest friendships in mylife to my adult lifetime have
been in the church.
We were told not to makefriends with our members, but I
(02:41):
wouldn't have had any friends ifI hadn't had those
relationships.
So the relationships lingermost, I suppose.
Then too I was always strong onemphasizing equipping the laity
for servant ministry.
So education we did a lot withadult Bible study.
I was from the era where we didthe Bethel Bible series and
(03:03):
crossways and so forth.
I can remember at Woodburydoing 100 verses in 100 days
where members were invited tomemorize a scripture verse every
day for 100 days and they wereheld their feet to the fire by
being partnered with othermembers.
That was interesting because Iremember we had kids who held
(03:24):
their parents accountable formemorizing scripture, which is
kind of a reversal.
It was kind of a nice reversal.
So that was a big deal.
The education thing.
Thirdly, I think, just theemphasis on the arts.
I was big on theater and dramaand we had a standing drama team
every year for a lot of years.
And then the visual artsfestivals that we did, where we
would hang the art in thesanctuary and then I would use
(03:45):
the art?
Um in my preaching.
I'd preach from different artpieces and pray from different
art pieces um.
So those three thingsrelationships, education and the
arts that's a great summary.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
I I, if you know're we're just a couple of decades
apart, but I think even now,pushing 20 years, I'm going to
look back and have it be very,very similar to that focus.
It's all about the people.
And going back to what you saidabout relationships, I don't
know if that's the best adviceto say never have friends in the
church.
(04:21):
What words of wisdom?
I don't think it is.
Yeah, what words of wisdom doyou give, though?
Because there is a line and youcan kind of cross it, and the
pastoral ministry is an officeto be respected, to be sure, but
at the same time it's you'reaccessible, I think of the
ministry of Jesus, right?
I mean, he was accessible.
You call me teacher and rabbi.
I guess I am, but I've calledyou friends, right?
(04:46):
He had friends with theapostles, and so especially with
like, we're a larger church,woodbury was a larger church.
You can't be like close,intimate friends with two, three
, 400, there are 4,000 people,for goodness sake, right?
But you certainly can have kindof an inner circle and an outer
circle and a circle that you'remobilizing, equipping and
training.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
What words of wisdom do you give?
That's the Jesus model forfriendship.
That's the Jesus model forfriendship is that inner circle?
And it doesn't mean thatthere's a power circle, it just
means that there are people withwhom you're especially
vulnerable and you hold yourselfaccountable.
I always had an accountabilityteam that I worked with to hold
my feet to the fire in terms ofbeing faithful in ministry and
(05:26):
honoring the goals that thecongregation had set.
So, yeah, I think therelationships are at the core of
any ministry, and that'scertainly been true in my
ministry.
I don't remember now why Iwould stay up in the middle of
the night worrying over avoters' meeting coming up.
I don't even remember whatthose voters' meeting struggles
were about, but I do rememberthe relationships and they're
(05:47):
just, they're treasures in myheart.
People that I worked with.
God gave me great people,especially lay people, but also
staff.
I surrounded myself or I shouldsay God surrounded me with some
tremendous people that reallymade the ministry work, love
that I think you were known formemorizing names.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Don't you have an exceptional ability to memorize
names of people?
I don't know where that started.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
I've heard that before, but I don't know if I
agree.
At Woodbury there were 4,000members and I could name 3,000
of them, but there were 1,000that I.
It was beyond me to get all ofthem.
I'm fairly good with names, butI'm not great with names.
I know others who are betterthan I with calling people by
their first name.
Nowadays everybody grabs a nametag when they go into our church
(06:34):
.
I'm still a member at WoodburyLutheran, so everybody has a
name tag on, which makes itwonderful for communion, and
when you meet somebody you cancall them out by name, which is
super.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Yeah, we're doing name tags as well, but I will
say 3,000 out of 4,000 is prettygood, dr Natasty.
So tell us a little bit aboutwhat you did with Lay Leadership
Development.
This is a podcast of the UnitedLeadership Collective.
We talk about leadership a lot.
Can you think back to some ofthe most winsome ways you were
trying to raise up leaders fromwithin the congregation?
(07:06):
What were some of thosestrategies and attempts,
especially around theologicalformation, dr Nadesi?
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Right?
Well, I think for us it wasmore oriented towards servant
ministries.
We brought on a full timedirector of servant ministry.
So when you came into ourchurch there was an inventory
you did on spiritual gifts andthe your preferences in terms of
where you'd like to serve inthe church.
And then we had every positionhad an apprentice.
So you were assigned to aperson who held that position in
(07:34):
the church as servant ministry.
So my, let's say, it's an audiotech and you spent several
months as an apprentice to thatperson.
Then you moved into an audiotech position and we tried to do
that with everybody who cameinto the church.
We're very intentional aboutfinding their strengths, their
gifts, where they wanted toserve and making sure they
served.
And I forget the number, but atWoodbury Lutheran especially,
(07:55):
the number was huge in terms ofthe percentage of people.
I think it was like two thirdsof our members were heavily
involved in some form of servantministry in the church.
And then the education thingtagged on to that, that while
they're serving you're alsoequipping them for service in
the church.
And that's done through smallgroup Bible study primarily, but
also large group studies thatwe had.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
How much weight do you give to your servant
leadership development kind ofinvitation, your apprenticeship
to theological formation?
How much credit do you givethat attempt to the growth that
Woodbury Lutheran have?
How intimately connected or notdo you think was that
invitation?
Because two-thirds serving isextraordinary, I think in many
(08:37):
churches Dr Mattis, praise God.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Yeah, I think it's significant.
I think there was a surpriseelement to it.
When people came into thechurch they were surprised that
there was an expectation of this.
But then if you can match themto a ministry where they're
truly gifted and there arehundreds of ministries in a
large church that they can takeon it's really fulfilling and
(09:01):
probably that moves over to acontagion that they share how
fulfilled they are in theirministry at the church and leads
to other people coming.
I don't have any stats on that,but I'm sure it works that way.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
Well, yeah, and what we've noticed is a good next
step after worship.
They've been with us two, threetimes.
You get them into either a meetthe pastor, a start here,
whatever you want to call itinto, a and maybe a six weeker
in terms of who we are and whatwe believe we call it belong
into, engage Like.
(09:32):
People are eager and the firstthing after like, as we get them
into that sort of a journey, isto talk about service.
For many years we were talkingsmall group, but now we talk we
want people to be in small group, to be sure, but service is one
of the first invitations out ofthat sort of onboarding
experience into who we are andwhere we're going as a ministry.
(09:54):
Did you find the same thing?
I mean, it's a lot aboutservice because you meet people
on these respective serve teamsand then relationships develop
pretty naturally.
Is that what you found, drNadasi?
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Very, very much so I think.
Otherwise there's this flounderthing that happens that you're
there in worship and maybeyou're not there in worship and
you kind of get lost in the mazeof a large church.
So, finding something thattruly is servant-oriented, and
you have to have the theologyunderpinning that that it's
Christ-like servanthood.
So we're using Christ as ourmodel for that and our
(10:23):
motivation.
We want to serve him and sothat becomes a vehicle for
really fulfillment.
It's not about fulfillment,it's really being more and more
like Christ.
It's who I am.
I want to be more and more likeJesus.
That drives the ministry.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
You mentioned identity.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
We were talking before we got together.
You mentioned identity, andthat's just crucial.
I think that we need to knowwho we are, and our identity is
primarily that of a servant, aChristlike servant.
Yes, Amen.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
Well, you've lived that out your entire life.
Praise be to God.
So what are the top two orthree as you look right now,
2025, what are the top two orthree biggest differences today
in leading as a pastor?
And we got pastors listening,but a number of lay leaders
listening as well, and so thisis maybe helpful for them as
they pray for care, for lovetheir pastor.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
What are the biggest differences today than maybe
when you first began in ministry, dr Nassi?
Well, I have a sense that overthe course of the years my
ordination was in 1973, so50-some years pass and I see a
clergy dominance, particularlyin the LCMS now, that doesn't
recognize the value and thenecessity of enlisting the laity
(11:36):
in the mission of the church.
So that's something that'schanged.
I didn't sense thisoverwhelming centrality of
clergy in the life of the churchand that's in no way showing
lack of respect for the office.
I have tremendous respect forthe office of pastor, but I
think too many churches in ourtradition are run by pastors and
(11:56):
there's not enough opportunityfor lay people to serve.
I think worship is morechallenging these days than it
was.
I have a feeling that maybewe're by the worship wars in the
LCMS.
I think worship is morechallenging these days than it
was.
I have a feeling that maybewe're by the worship wars in the
LCMS, but there's still thisdivision.
I love contemporary Christianmusic, but I'm also concerned
(12:25):
about losing the ordo.
You know the order of worshipthat's been there since 150 AD
with Justin Martyr.
You have signs of the samesequence of events during
worship.
So worship's gotten to be a bitmore complicated.
And then I think, in terms ofpastors again, I don't sense the
mutuality and the collegialitythat we had 50 years ago.
We could duke it out at aWinkle at a pastor's conference
(12:48):
and then still go out and have abeer together.
I'm not sure that's the caseanymore.
I think there's a divisionamong clergy that isn't very
healthy and there's an isolation.
The loneliness of ministry hasbeen there for a long time, but
it just seems to be even more sothat too many pastors are
trying to do it on their own,without the support they need.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
That's a sobering list.
I pray for engagement of thelaity this podcast.
We talk a lot about the RoyalPriesthood of All Believers and
I'm an active pastor that getsthe privilege of having hundreds
of leaders who are around me.
And that's just because it's alarger church.
If you're in a church of 100,hopefully you at least have 10
(13:29):
to 15 kind of key leaders whoare around you, lifting up your
arms, caring for you, prayingfor you, partnering with you,
carrying out the ministry andall of the tasks.
You know that you think of thedeacons, the deacon type tasks
that need to get done within thechurch.
If there's a pastor, that'slike in a smaller church and he
feels like man.
I got to be all things toeveryone and maybe even
(13:52):
justifying it according toPaul's words.
That's just a heavy, heavyburden.
And Jesus came to give us alight yoke.
His touch is light and if Jesusactively I just preached on
this just yesterday.
I come back to Luke 9 and Luke10, the sending of the 12 and
the 70.
And it happens in Mark 2, rightbefore Jesus feeds the 5,000.
(14:12):
And right out of that kind of ahumorous thing, dr Nadesi, was
Jesus just sent them to proclaimthe kingdom to heal the sick
and to cast out demons, and theydo, and they come back to cast
out demons, and they do, andthey come back.
And then Jesus moves into thisbig quandary of feeding 5,000
plus people out in the midst ofa desolate place and says you
give them something to eat.
(14:32):
And their mind immediately goesto there's no way we could
possibly, you know, like ourpastor's, inviting partners,
others to come alongside them todo the work with them, because
I'm in a context right now.
It's so much fun Our leadershipdevelopment, all the way up to
Vickers and potential futurepastors.
It just is.
I don't know why we'd want todo it any other way.
(14:54):
And I think a lot of timespastors are living with, yes,
because of social media and theinternet and you can see and
listen to preaching.
So the comparison, thecompetition which is the thief
of joy, right, that's just sopalpable.
And then what I've experiencedin our denomination I imagine it
happens in other, in othertribes as well is an ever
(15:16):
increasing tribal nature aroundpeople who agree with absolutely
everything that you do and youagree with absolutely everything
that that they, which to me, drnatasy, sounds very boring like
I want people to challenge it's.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
The same thing goes on politically in the nation.
People get only hear what theywant to hear from the people
around them that they want to bewith, and that's that's
separation from the world.
That's not being in the world,and we need to be in the world,
not of, but in it for sure.
I think.
The other thing is I think thedominance of clergy trying to go
it alone cheats laypeople ofthe opportunity to serve the
(15:51):
Lord, and that's really sad thatwe're cheating laypeople of
their opportunity to serve whenwe try to do it all and just
think of the ministry that couldbe done if we mobilize the
laity in every congregation.
It'd be amazing to see thelaity take over.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
It is amazing.
It is amazing and unfortunately, to your point.
On the one hand, I think we'reby I guess you will the worship
struggles, and I think where weneed to agree with those that
have only organ and only hymnal,where we need to agree is on
(16:27):
the ordo.
100%, a hundred percent.
I'm with you there.
The scripture doesn't sayanything about drums and guitars
and things like that.
I love that we're writing moreJesus centered, confessional
Lutheran songs now Shout out tothe songwriters initiative is
invocation through benedictionand everything that kind of goes
in between confession,absolution, obviously, the
(16:56):
sacraments, the Lord's Supper,you know, and I'm a fan of the
Lord's Supper as consistently asyou can possibly have it for
the edification of our faith,the forgiveness of our sins.
I say more there around.
I think this is where we shouldand could unite, I think in the
LCMS, dr.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
Nance, I think.
Several years ago, when I wason the Council of Presidents, we
came out with a statement thatwe all agreed on it, which is
very rare on worship andbasically the substance of the
statement was what matters isthe ordo and I think leadership
in the Missouri Senate hasstayed with that idea that we
want to see the ordo honored.
And if we can do that, if wecan honor the sequence of events
(17:33):
which is, it's just masterfulto see the flow of a worship
service through the traditionalordo, if we can all agree on
that, that's really something torejoice in.
And the style of worship, themusic used, the instruments used
, I think that's a matter oftaste.
It's going to vary from churchto church, from person to person
(17:53):
, that's very evidently,adiaphora.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
We need to do a better job, I think, Dean, of
listening to one another.
You talk a lot about listening.
I believe it is a skill thatcan be deepened.
So talk about the three primaryneeds of those we listen to.
You say they're either bound,burdened or broken.
Would you kind of take us toschool in the art of listening,
Dr Natasty?
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Yeah, I'm really big on listening.
I think that a place where thatcould begin would be in worship
itself.
I remember, as a districtpresident, visiting churches
that were calling and the numberone thing they wanted in a
pastor which I heard over andover again was we want a dynamic
preacher.
Well, I got so tired of hearingthat.
Finally, I said to these groupsyou know, what we preachers are
(18:37):
interested in is dynamiclisteners.
We'd like some people out therewho are actually listening.
Listening dynamically, whichmeans bringing your needs to
that sermon, preparing for thesermon by reading the text ahead
of time, talking about thesermon before it's even given,
but to give the sermon some lifeand really truly listening with
my needs in mind as I listen toa sermon.
That said, the other thing thatI like to talk about is gospel
(19:01):
listening listening with a heartfor sharing the gospel.
So a lot of times our peoplearen't ready to share the gospel
because they don't have anapparatus for it, and so I don't
know where I picked it up.
I don't think it's originalwith me, but somewhere along the
line I picked up this idea thatevery person's needs can be
summarized in three wordsthey're either bound, burdened
(19:23):
or broken.
Now, for each of those there'sa gospel message.
So if the person I'm listeningand it sounds like they're
talking about being addicted andtied up and they can't get out
of this mess they're in, that'sbeing bound, and the gospel
message is going to be one offreedom, of being set loose.
So I'm going to frame myevangelistic conversation with
(19:43):
the gospel message for them thattalks about being free.
If I'm burdened, burdened withgrief, burdened with overwork,
burdened with a load that just Ican't get rid of, then the
gospel message is going to berest in Christ, he promises us
come to me all you who are weary, and I will give you rest.
So the whole idea of relief andrest would be my gospel message
(20:06):
for the burdened, for the broken, that person who's broken in
relationships, who's a brokenperson who lost their wholeness
Well, the gospel there iswholeness.
It's peace, peace andrelationship, especially for
those who are in brokenrelationships.
I've challenged Bible studygroups to see if they could come
up with a need that doesn't fitinto one of those three
(20:27):
categories.
It's pretty hard and the reasonyou're using this I call it an
apparatus is that it has youready to witness, because you're
listening.
Where do you fit and whatgospel do you need?
Because the gospel is a jewelthat just rotates in all of its
fine shining points and to knowthat I've got a lot of
(20:49):
opportunity here for witness,but I need to vector in on this
person's specific needs.
That's gospel listening.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
Hey, listener, if you're not taking notes right
now, I don't know what's goingon.
If you're driving, don't takenotes for sure, but you need to
go back.
And that is such a marveloushandle for evangelical
proclamation in everydayconversations.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
I like the word handle.
You borrowed that word handle.
It's a three-handle.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Like you've never said that, dr, this is so much
fun.
Well, you do a lot of workaround preaching and what I've
loved about your preaching stylewhich we're different I would
be probably louder, that's kindof how Jesus made me but you're
very storied, you're relationaland you're working on a book
(21:41):
right now called the Power ofParables, and would you connect,
maybe, story to listening?
I don't know if that's, Ididn't ask you this question,
but is there something aroundlistening to a person's story
deeply that unlocks one of thosethree Bs bound, burdened or
broken that allows then maybethe story of Scripture, the
(22:03):
power of Jesus' parables, tocome alive and even use that as
a gospel?
Handle, dr Natasy, anything tosay there.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
Handle, dr Nadesi, anything to say there yeah, if I
focus on personal evangelism,what are the stories from my
life that make a difference formy witness and what are the
stories that I have that have todo with being bound or broken
or burdened, my personal stories?
Those are crucial for personalwitness.
In terms of preaching, I thinkJesus understood the power of
(22:32):
parable, the power of story thatit takes a plot line and along
the way one begins to seeconnections with the faith, with
the truth.
I think it was Emily Dickinsonwho talked about telling it
slant that sometimes it's notgood enough to just list three
propositional truths from a text.
(22:53):
It's not good enough to justlist three propositional truths
from a text.
It's more important, probablyto get people ready to learn
those three propositional truthsby listening to a story that's
significant.
And these need to be storiesthat are kind of along-the-way
stories.
Jesus told his parables.
Think of Luke, the travelnarrative in Luke going to
Jerusalem that's where we getthese wonderful—think of Luke 15
, the lost parables.
(23:14):
Those are on-the-way stories.
They're stories that we'removing, we're in life together
and we're recalling or we'remaking up a story.
I love to create a parablethat's more contemporary, that
kind of reflects the truths ofparables that Jesus told, and
that's what I'm trying to workon.
What do contemporary parablessound like, look like, and how
(23:36):
can we use contemporary storiesto do the same thing that Jesus'
stories do?
But they need to be connectedto the Word.
Homiletics got kind of divertedfor about 20 years or so into
narrative preaching, which was,you know, a guy would get up and
all he'd do is tell a story andleft it to everybody else to
figure out what it was.
Well, jesus rarely did that.
Sometimes he did that, but thatdoesn't work real well.
(23:57):
I think we came back to theneed.
We're preaching truth here.
What we want to do iscommunicate truth, but the way
to get people ready for that isto get them engaged with story.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
Well, yes, 100% agree .
I guess that predates my timein preaching.
I agree, I guess that predatesmy time in preaching.
Story in my learning was alwaystoward gospel proclamation on
foundational law, gospel, truth.
You know I don't know with withDr Schmidt or or, yeah, anyone,
that I learned from that.
(24:28):
That was one narrative.
Preaching was definitely a toolin the tool belt, if you will,
but it was always toward,whether it's inductive or
deductive, it was always towarda very clear proclamation of
foundational truth, law andgospel.
So that's, that's it Go ahead.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
Our tradition is so strong on truth that we didn't
fall into that trap.
I don't think there are veryfew purely narrative preachers
in the LCMS.
There might have been a few,but very few, because our
training didn't allow for that,as you just said yeah, no, I
think so that's good.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
So would you tell a contemporary parable that the
listener because I know you'reworking on this, the Power of
Parables would you just give usone example?
Speaker 2 (25:10):
of a contemporary parable yeah, I'm working on one
this morning that and I don'thave the storyline completely
filled in.
But the storyline is basicallythat of a mother and daughter
who have deep resentment witheach other over something that
happened in the daughter'steenage years, and the story
unfolds as that resentment leadsto the daughter.
(25:31):
The resentment is in her heart.
She gets deeper and deeper intotrouble, and I'm at the point
of resolution here.
How do I resolve their trouble?
Well, the text is theresentment that grows deep
within us when our heart getsfull of resentment, and also the
idea of the unforgiving, thecost of unforgiveness in our
(25:53):
lives.
I just heard a great sermon atour church on unforgiveness, and
so that prompted this.
What's a story?
And I think rooting it in amother-daughter relationship
rather than a father-son is kindof appealing to me because it
kind of breaks the mold offather-son.
So that's just a and that's inprocess.
I could have given you one thatI got all filled out, but
you've heard some of those Ithink I have.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
So there's a lot of people, leaders, theologians and
philosophers who are talkingaround the power of story,
rather than just propositionaltruth, for changing the human
heart.
What is it about story thatultimately connects, transforms,
mobilizes us for love and gooddeeds as Jesus followers?
Speaker 2 (26:37):
Dr Mattis, Well, I think there's no question that
it's the affect of a good story.
It's how it engages theemotions that we're so heady
sometimes in our preaching andit's wonderful.
I mean, we're great on truthlaying out truth.
We do a great job with that.
Wonderful, I mean, we're greaton truth laying out truth.
We do a great job with that.
But to bring the heart to thatin the book I did on the
(26:57):
beautiful sermon, one of thebeautiful things about a sermon,
when it's working, is that itengages both head and heart.
It's both cognition andaffection, and so it's not
uncommon, I mean, for pastorswho are good storytellers, to
see people dropping tears duringtheir sermon.
It's because that storyconnects with them.
We used to have a weepers clubat one of the churches I served.
(27:19):
I always kidded them mostlywomen who would cry every other
sermon and usually it came at apoint of a story that just
touched their hearts.
So that's the power of story itbrings affect and it doesn't
hit people in the face withtruth no-transcript of the
(27:59):
fascinating things to me is tocontemplate.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
for almost 300 years the Christian church didn't have
the Bible as we know it today.
Right, it was.
It was a gospel here, a gospelthere, an epistle here, an
epistle there.
And how did they know?
How did they know what was true?
It's because it was connectedto who Jesus was and what he'd
done.
And I love John.
Right, if all of the storiesare written, all the books
(28:25):
couldn't contain.
There's more that we could havesaid.
But these things are writtenthat you may believe that Jesus
is the Christ, the son of theliving God, and that by
believing he may have, you mayhave life in his name.
I mean stories give stories,give life, right, and I think
this is the heart of evangelismfor today.
Who cares what I think the HolySpirit thinks like?
Tell a good story that connectspeople to the heart and mind
(28:47):
and the love that God has for usin the person and work of Jesus
, anything more to say there, drNattis.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Well, the story needs to have the ring of truth to it
too.
It can be a made-up story.
I'm not sure all of Jesus'parables actually were historic
events that happened, like theprodigal son and so forth the
two sons of one dad but theyneed to have the ring of truth
to them.
That's really important as wellas you tell the story.
The other thing about storiesthat I found is every church has
(29:23):
its own stories too that belongto the oral tradition of that
church.
And I can remember at Woodbury,the founding pastor of Woodbury,
his mother-in-law, said to himwell, the problem with you is
you'll let anybody into yourchurch.
Well, that became a story thatgot told over and over again,
because he did.
He welcomed sinners into thechurch and it was just a great
(29:43):
story.
I used it several times,probably too often, because it
was so powerful.
You'll let anybody in andthere's a plot line with the
story and so forth, but thatmakes the point.
Every church has its ownstories that need to be honored
as well and recalled, not juston anniversary years but
repeatedly, to keep thosestories alive in the life of the
(30:04):
church.
So good.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
Last couple questions here.
I don't normally do this on mypodcast, but since your entire
ministry has been in theLutheran Church Missouri Synod,
what are the top three threatsto our life together right now?
Do you think Dr Natasty in theLCMS?
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Well, I'd say, first of all, probably the lack of
Christlike servant leadershipflourishing in our congregations
.
We've talked about that, theneed to get lay people mobilized
.
Pastors are still their leader,but the pastor is responsible
to multiply ministry in thischurch.
So that would be one of them.
A second one would be and I'veharped on this for too many
(30:41):
years it's just confusing endswith means, or confusing means
with ends, I guess, is better.
So those in our church whoseheart I'm sure is true who say
the mission of the church is topresent Word and Sacrament in
worship, that's the mission ofthe church.
Well, that's not the mission ofthe church.
That's the means, that's theempowering of the mission of the
(31:02):
church.
The mission of the church is tomake disciples, to multiply
disciples.
So the confusion of the means,which is where we get our
strength from the Word andsacrament, that's a means, it's
not an end in itself.
That's been around in ourtradition for a long time and I
think that's kind of tragic thatit is, and one that I'll just
(31:23):
highlight that I think isoutside of the Missouri Synod I
think the church generally isfacing this is this
neo-gnosticism thing of.
I'm a secular spiritual person.
I don't need the institutionalchurch.
I think some of it's agenerational thing, but I worry
about the institutional churchas it represents the invisible
(31:48):
church of Christ.
Where is that heading in a timewhen being spiritual seems to
be enough for people?
Those are three threats.
That's a great list, yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
That's a really great list.
To the last one, as a guythat's still kind of in the
trenches right now.
I think that's shifting the lieof the enemy that I can follow
Jesus or maybe just follow aspirit or out in creation or
apart from gathered group ofpeople.
(32:21):
I think that lie is beingexposed right now by the Holy
Spirit and we're I mean this isjust one signpost and again,
we're a fast growing communitybut many of the people who are
coming into our church one, they, they, they don't have a long
history, like maybe it's aparent or grandparent who are
connected to a Catholic churchor something like that they have
(32:44):
.
I'm just thinking of one familyI just met for the second time.
They came back for the secondtime.
They've never, they've neverbeen a part of a local church
and they have an eight and asix-year-old, a girl and a boy,
and he's never so she has thiskind of Catholic background and
he is completely a nun,n-o-n-e-s right, no spiritual
(33:06):
foundation.
But there's this heart cry andthere's a friend who invited
them multiple times overmultiple years and they finally
came and they're coming back.
It's unbelievable.
So for us we have 61.
And I bet Woodbury is similar,and if you're in an urban
suburban area that happens to begrowing, like ours, I bet
(33:28):
you're experiencing similartrends.
We have 61 documentedfirst-time guests in two and a
half weeks in the month of March, dr Nasty.
Wow, that's fantastic, andthat's that's people that let us
know they're they're here.
There's many others that don'teven let us know they're here.
So, like there's never been agreater opportunity in my, in
(33:51):
almost two decades of ministry,for us to invite and give tools
and handles and invitation toour members, to invite their
friends and neighbors and familymembers who are far from Christ
, to come and experience hislove, his care, with a group of
people, namely the visible localchurch.
I think it's a turning pointright now.
(34:11):
Dr Nassi, I'm very very excitedabout this.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
You think it's generational.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
I mean, yeah for sure .
But I think the generationallie that I can be spiritual and
not connected to a group ofpeople I don't even like to use
religious, but spiritual.
And what is the core source ofthat spirituality?
I think the Holy Spirit is atwork.
I know the Holy Spirit is atwork, pointing people to a
desperate need for, ultimately,christ, the crucified and risen
(34:39):
and reigning, one who's quick toreturn to be and maybe this is
a heart cry, and I could be, I'man optimist so I could be kind
of overstating this trend.
I think it's going to take timeand probably multiple
generations.
We're certainly far from aChristian America, to be sure,
but I think the percentage ofpeople who are recognizing,
especially through COVID, rightthings have accelerated.
(35:00):
Dysfunction has accelerated,addiction, despair, you know,
being a slave to your phone anda slave to your all these things
are kind of accelerating.
That, I think, are leading manyto a point to say maybe I'll
give that Jesus guy a try.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
And that's the case.
Yeah, praise God.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
Yeah, yeah.
Are you seeing that in yourcontext at?
Speaker 2 (35:20):
all, I think for me it is somewhat generational.
I'm seeing a lot of youngerpeople expressing interest in
the church.
It's that our kids.
Well, kids that are 18 to 25,that age group, Is that Gen Z?
I don't know if I have all thatright or not.
No, that's right, yeah, gen Z Ithink we're more open to the
value of community, even if it'san institutional community.
(35:42):
The thing to do, I think, givenyour optimism, is for the
church to present itself as acommunity of followers of Christ
, not as an institution.
If people see institutionalthings attached to the church,
that's not going to draw themstill, I think.
But I think when there's avibrant community that's that's
driven by its mission, with aleader who's committed to the
(36:05):
mission and has people trulyfollowing that leader, that's
exciting.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
That's exciting.
It's very, it's very exciting.
I'm so pumped for what God isdoing right now.
It's a it's a transitionalseason right now from
post-Christian to pre-Christian,traditional season right now,
from post-Christian topre-Christian and, I think, from
maybe hostile and suspicious ofthe gospel to more curious and
open.
I think we're seeing that shiftand that whole shift is
(36:33):
probably going to be theentirety of the rest of the 20,
30, 40 years, god willing thatthe Lord allows me to be a
communicator of the gospel here.
It's going to be slow, but Ifeel like the flywheel effect
will pick up, especially forthose churches that are open,
that are hospitable, that arekind, that are mission-focused,
that want to be about advancingthe mission of Jesus, that want
(36:55):
to be about training up andequipping the saints for love
and good deeds, to communicateclearly, with a listening heart,
who Jesus is and how much heloves them.
I think the opportunities arethere and I'm praying that the
Lutheran Church Missouri Synodwants to get on that
kingdom-expanding train becauseit's moving down the tracks.
Dr Natasy, it's very exciting.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
I think your post-Christian, pre-christian
thought.
Just on that quickly.
For me as a pastor, it would bemore important to view those
people who are seeking orunchurched or nuns whatever, to
see them as pre-Christian asopposed to post-Christian.
Post-christian has always feltto me and I know there's a lot
of writings on thepost-Christian era that seems
(37:35):
like we've thrown the towel in.
I think it's better to saywe're in a secular society, just
as Jesus was in a secularsociety, and that's
pre-Christian.
It's not there yet, but thatallows for the thought that
we've got an opportunity here tomake them Christian, to have a
mission to this time.
But the idea of post-Christianhas never appealed to me very
much, so I'm glad you see amovement away from it.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
You should be talking pre-Christian in our language.
Language matters.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
Yeah.
And are we optimistic or are wenegative?
Are we only for ourselves?
And are we fearful andprotective or are we hopeful?
And it appears as if Jesus,when he launched the greatest
movement of all time, was very,very hopeful for a small group
of people radically changing theworld.
(38:24):
And they did, and we continueto, by the Spirit's power
connected to the Word.
Final question as you look atthe Lutheran Church Missouri
Synod, greatest strengths thatyou're like, these strengths
cannot, will never praise.
Be to God by the Spirit's powerbe compromised.
Any thoughts there, dr Vesey?
Speaker 2 (38:42):
That one's kind of an easy one in terms of strengths,
no question.
But we're blessed to be in adenomination that is completely
committed to the inspiration andheresy of the Scriptures, that
we really are rooted in the Wordof God, scripture alone.
Then I'd add to that the otheralone.
They're all important, but thegrace theology that we have is
(39:07):
tremendous.
The Christ-centered theology,the preeminent Christ, all of
that is so crucial the biblicalliteracy that's been there
traditionally within the LCMS,that people who've been raised
in the LCMS generally are morebiblically literate than those
who are from outside.
I think that has been true butcontinues to be true.
(39:30):
I worry sometimes about the lackof significant Bible study in a
lot of our churches.
We have too many churches thatdon't even have Bible study
going, so they have to depend onthe pastor's sermon to be the
Bible study they get.
I hope something can happenwith that, but still, biblical
literacy would be a strength.
And then our emphasis oneducation historically has been
(39:51):
amazing.
From the beginning we wereoften starting schools before we
started the church.
We were interested in educatingstudents and that gave birth to
the Concordia University systemand all of the blessings that
have come through that.
I'm a product of two of thosethree of those schools, two of
(40:12):
which are closed now.
So anyway, I guess primarilythe beauty and the depth to
which we take our study of theWord has been a strength of the
church For sure, and that willnot stop.
Speaker 1 (40:29):
We did a podcast recently, Jack and I, on Lead
Time.
The other podcast we do on thePew Research study that just
came out, around 20.
20, it's declining.
People who read in the LCMS,the Bible, one time a week or
more, went from like 33% and youcan fact check me on this,
(40:52):
something like this to 25.
I remember the 25% to 25% ofour members.
So there are some decliningstatistics regarding prayer and
time in the word.
But from a leadershipperspective and I think from a
pastoral and pastoral trainingperspective, we're a people
deeply committed to the word andI pray, we invite all of the
priesthood, of all believers, tobe committed to being in the
(41:13):
word, to be storied and thensent by the word of God.
Hey, Dr Natasy, this is great.
We're at time.
I've had so much fun getting toknow you better.
Thank you for your generosity,for your kindness, for your
courage and leadership downthrough the years.
How can people connect with you?
And you know, if you want topromote a book or two, feel free
to do so now.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
Well, the Beautiful Sermon book has just been out a
couple of years.
That's really written forpastors to engage visual arts in
their preaching but also torecognize the importance of a
beautiful sermon.
That is, a sermon that has theelements of beauty from God to
Christ, to the gospel, to wementioned head and heart.
These are things that make asermon truly beautiful.
(41:54):
And the book lays out some ofthe elements of beauty in a
sermon and introduces especiallyart pastors in our tradition to
aesthetic theology because wehave no training in the theology
of beauty.
So the book is titled theBeautiful Sermon.
Concordia Seminary Press put itout but you can get it on
Amazon.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
Love that, Love that.
If people want to reach out toyou email, is that something you
can give?
Speaker 2 (42:17):
Dean Nadistee at gmailcom.
Dean Nadistee at gmailcom.
Speaker 1 (42:22):
Love it.
This is the Tim Allman Podcast.
Like, subscribe, comment.
Wherever it is you take inthese conversations and we pray
that joy and hope, listening anda desire to hear stories and
connect those stories to thegreatest story of all time,
which is God's love for us inthe person of Jesus Christ,
would be what is most beautifulin our head and in our hearts
(42:44):
and something that leads us tolive it out and proclaim it.
Thank you, dr Natasy.
It's a good day.
Go make it a great day.
You're a gift brother.
Speaker 2 (42:51):
Thanks, tim Blessings , thank you.
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