March 19, 2025 • 47 mins
Kim Marxhausen shares invaluable insights on caring for caregivers, drawing from her personal experience with in-laws who had dementia and her professional background in educational psychology. She explores how brain science, emotional intelligence, and faith-based practices create sustainable patterns for those supporting others through illness or aging.
• Understanding primary vs secondary emotions helps caregivers respond appropriately in stressful situations
• The "superhero syndrome" can trap caregivers in feeling solely responsible for outcomes
• Jesus modeled self-care through retreating for prayer, accepting care from others, and even napping
• Morning routines that include spiritual practices create a foundation for resilience
• Research confirms Bible reading four or more times weekly significantly improves mental health
• The framework "feed your faith, find your fellowship" provides practical wisdom for caregiver wellness
• Reorienting your thinking from being the superhero to doing the small tasks before you relieves pressure
• Looking for people who want to help relieves the burden of trying to do everything alone
Find Kim's book "Weary Joy: The Caregiver's Journey"
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm remembering the story of Jesus on the beach
fixing breakfast for thedisciples, and that's one of
their last times to have seenJesus.
So you might think that Jesusis thinking okay, I'm going to
be ascending into heaven and sothis is my last chance to give a
little bit more training.
No, you know, he's not doinganother lecture.
He's fixing them breakfast andhe took them away from their
(00:23):
work of fishing.
He's fixing them breakfast andhe took them away from their
work of fishing.
And to me and you can tell meif this is heresy, because I
don't have your background inscripture, but to me the message
is if you're going to do thework, you got to eat, and then
you need to eat healthy, youneed to do those kinds of things
.
And I think he's he tellingthem too, as you go out into
(00:44):
these communities, I'm going tohave people there who are going
to take care of you.
Don't feel guilty about sittingdown to a big meal, because
they're caring for you, aren'tthey?
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Welcome to the Tim Allman Podcast.
I pray.
The joy of Jesus is with youtoday.
He has great joy.
He has great delight over you,regardless.
This is why I love being in aLutheran tradition.
Regardless and before anythingyou think, do or say any
accolades that come your way, hecan't be, jesus can't be any
more proud of you and in lovewith you than he is right now,
(01:23):
simply by faith, and today, Ihope you're excited for a great
conversation with KimMarkshausen.
She is an adjunct professor,writer, blogger, speaker.
She has her PhD in educationalpsychology and more than 20
years experience caring forin-laws, and we're going to hear
a little bit of that storytoday.
(01:44):
Both of her in-laws experienceddementia, and how do we?
This conversation is going tobe about caring for the
caregiver.
She's the author of it OnlyTakes a Spark and Paper, paint
and Print.
She's been in the educationalspace for some time.
She has contributed manydevotions, she's been in portals
(02:04):
of prayer and she's currentlyworking on a book Caring for
Students with Autism.
How are you doing today, though, kim?
Speaker 1 (02:12):
I'm doing well, thank you.
I'm excited to be here, yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
I love it, one of my favorite topics, for sure.
This is going to be so much fun.
I've been looking forward to it.
So let's start with joy.
Let's hunt the good stuff.
How is Jesus currently givingyou joy?
How does joy fuel your dailywalk with Jesus, Kim?
Speaker 1 (02:31):
I think for my husband and I we have a new
sense of joy because Paul justretired after 40 years of
working for the university and Ican see that God is slowing
down my schedule.
I don't actually have a job.
I usually say I'm chronicallyunemployed because I go from one
contract to the other, but Isee God slowing things down and
(02:52):
the joy for me is how, when wecan set aside that kind of
earning your living work for awhile now, I can find more joy
in the other vocations that Godgives me, and one of them, of
course, being caring for threepeople right at the moment,
three people who are in their90s.
But just the other day my dadcalled and said I can't find my
(03:18):
sewing kit.
I you know I can't get thisbutton sewed on my pants, and so
I was able to just dropeverything and go over there and
do that.
And what a spot of joy in myday to spend that little bit of
time with my dad.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
I love that so much.
You know when you're in aseason of life like I'm in right
now I got three high schoolersand you know the schedules, the
events and then kind of helpingto lead a church and things.
My day is so ridiculouslyscheduled when I'm in, you know,
and it's annoying.
(03:54):
I've actually I mean it is whatit is but I actually, you know
you run hard.
God made me a certain way.
I'm definitely driven and I'mreally looking forward right now
.
Kim, full transparency for asabbatical I'm taking for 10
weeks this summer Every sevenyears.
Our congregation gives that andI'm actually exploring with our
(04:18):
team what does it look like Now?
Maybe certain ministry leaderscan't always take 10 weeks for
this or that, but what would itlook like for us to get a wider
rhythm of rest for our team?
The cool thing about the Valleyis kind of everybody rests in
June and July Things kind ofcome to a screeching halt
because it's hellaciously hotoutside, it's 120 and people
(04:39):
just kind of flee, flee theValley.
So there's a little bit of likerest and reset time that takes
place in our in our summer.
But as I'm coming out of mysabbatical and even looking at
my calendar, my calendar wouldgive people maybe PTSD that I've
ever been in a season, a seasonlike this.
For me it's just one day, onemoment, one, one conversation at
a time.
That's the only way I can kindof function.
(04:59):
But even even coming out of mysabbatical I'm looking forward
to developing a little bitbetter margin in my days.
And this is around kind ofboundaries.
It's saying we can talk aroundthis or that because I get
invited into a lot ofconversations around, not just
things at our church but in thewider church and getting better,
(05:23):
I think, at saying no or justnot yet into some of those
conversations just so I can be agood husband and father.
Go ahead, Kim.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
You need to have that white space in your calendar
White space.
You don't have white space inyour calendar right now.
But I also think of a greatphrase a friend taught me when
somebody's asking me to dosomething, and that's to say my
heart says yes, but my calendarsays no, it's a nice way of
saying that's an important thing, but because it's important, I
(05:54):
can't do that for you right now.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Yeah, so I'm figuring that out, kim.
I'm a work in progress, butnonetheless, the reason I like
podcasts is it just is a setaside time to hear stories and
then release the people and thestories to the Lord in their
respective contexts and to say,oh yeah.
As I think back after thisconversation, I'm sure your name
(06:18):
will come to me as I look atyour reading and what you've as
I read your books.
I just pray for, pray for Kim,and and, and you do the same for
me.
And then I can release thatperson into the caring love of
Christ and community in theirrespective context.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Isn't that good to not have to be God for people.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
What's that?
Speaker 1 (06:40):
How can we survive without it?
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Exactly, exactly.
So let's get into your story abit.
What led you to write Weary Joyin 2019?
And I think, man, I put atimestamp, I'm 2019.
Little did we know what wewould be walking into, why we'd
need that Weary Joy perspectiveheading into the COVID season.
So tell the story about writingWeary Joy.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
Well, the first reason that I wrote it is pretty
typical and that is becausethere's a need.
I haven't actually been acaregiver since I was extremely
young, but I took up caregivingfor my in-laws when I wasn't
even 40 yet, so I kept lookingfor resources and I didn't find
them.
I think quite often when anindividual has a crisis, like
(07:26):
they have a diagnosis or anaccident or a stroke, our
concern is for that person.
And when we know they havesomeone caring for them, we've
kind of ticked off a box in ourbrain and so we just don't go
that next step and look at thatcaregiver too, you know, because
we're focused on the personwho's receiving care.
(07:48):
But as I was caring forespecially my in-laws, I got the
urge to jot down stories and Iwould write them down.
And I didn't analyze them atthat time.
I just wrote them down becauseI thought this is something I
want to remember.
And so, when I was getting mydegree in cognition and
development and I'm learningmore about how we think and I'm
(08:10):
learning more about how ouremotions impact how we think and
the decisions that we make, tolook back at that stories and
say now I know why my brain said, that's an important story, and
so that's why in the book, eachchapter doesn't start with a
problem.
Each chapter starts with astory, it starts with a shared
(08:30):
experience, and then we moveinto an explanation for it, and
then we move into God's grace,because we need to hear that all
the time.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Yeah, yeah, no, I love that.
So could we go deeper?
Just put a pin in that, becauseI want to come back to the
story.
And what is it about the brain?
You talk about how we think andthen how emotions are connected
to, and this is, I mean, joy,is the fuel for a brain that
that move, or a body that movesout in connection and community
(09:03):
with, with other people.
We definitely, we definitelyknow that.
And so what is theinterconnection between how we
think, emotions and story?
Could you draw a through linebetween those three points of
view as it relates to psychology?
Speaker 1 (09:18):
Well, we can't really learn anything without emotions
, and that was something thatwas really blew my mind when I
first came to understand it.
And the reason is becauseeverything we learn gets encoded
in our brain with the emotionsthat we're feeling at that
moment.
And so when we go back and readover a story, your brain is
(09:41):
setting electrical light tothose neural pathways that
connect to that story.
But the neural pathways move onand connect to emotions you
were feeling at that time andconnect to other times when you
felt that way, and that's ashortcut for our brain to be
able to pull up resources for usthen to be able to analyze that
(10:04):
story or to be able to make adecision.
It's all really connected andit's just so beautiful the way
God designed it.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Hmm, it really is.
Sometimes I've wondered if,because we're now I come from a
Lutheran background, lutheranLutheran background, lutheran
background, lutheran backgroundthe story of kind of the stoic
German Lutheran and we're morereserved generally and we can
(10:34):
even theologically justify, Iwould say, squelching our
emotions because we don't wantto become overly emotional,
because then somehow that showof emotion, especially as it
relates to our faith, is usclimbing some kind of emotional
ladder to get closer to God andany kind of interconnection
(10:57):
there.
I got my thoughts.
I'd love to hear yours.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Yeah, well, I mean first of all, if you read the
Psalms, you find emotions, forsure.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
All over the place.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
And you find a lot of emotions and you find the
really hard emotions too.
But what's happening in thebrain is, as you start to make a
decision or as you'reexperiencing something, your
brain chooses the emotion thatit feels is most appropriate and
that's coming from deep down inthe brain, the amygdala and the
(11:27):
hippocampus, and so that firstemotion tends to be the right
one because it hasn't gonethrough our prefrontal cortex.
We haven't thought about it.
But if that emotion isuncomfortable and that's what
you're talking about, aboutrepressing those emotions if
being afraid or being angry isuncomfortable, our brain picks
up a secondary emotion, and thatcan be a problem.
(11:50):
So, as children of God, we needto follow the dictates of the
lament psalms and admit to thosescary emotions and sit in them
and explain them to God and thengive that emotion up to God,
and that's how we can deal withthose really strong emotions.
(12:12):
But we need them.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Well, Dan, you brought up a term that I don't
think I've wrestled withSecondary emotions.
Secondary emotions and I thinkI know where you're going there
and why only giving into, Iwould say, or recognizing,
identifying, speaking secondaryemotions is unhelpful.
(12:35):
Could you go deeper on why justleading from secondary emotions
is unhelpful?
Speaker 1 (12:44):
That's interesting to me because one of the first
times I talked in a publicsetting about primary and
secondary emotions, I wastalking about care doing, and
when I was done, I found myselfsurrounded by a ring of pastors
which as a commissioned workerdoes make me a little nervous
One at a time, but a whole ringof them and they all said to me
we need to hear more aboutprimary and secondary emotions.
And that is so true for anybodywho does caring, whether you're
(13:07):
the pastor or a teacher or DCE.
That secondary emotion reallymesses us up because it's not
appropriate.
And when we're caring forsomeone, we need to recognize
that that's a secondary emotionand move them back into the
primary emotion.
So here's an example.
I'm going to use COVID.
(13:28):
I hope I don't get myself introuble because it might still
be too soon, but most of usreacted to COVID with an amount
of fear.
And that was an appropriatereaction, because a global
pandemic is a scary thing.
Now we don't want to stay infear.
We want to lament that fear toGod and let God be in control.
(13:49):
But I saw too many people whoturn that fear into anger.
And then is their responseappropriate, because what you do
in anger is not the kind ofstuff that's going to help you
make wise decisions in what is afearful situation where God is
in control.
(14:10):
But we see that I saw it as ateacher all the time too a
parent really angry aboutsomething they heard about in
class when in reality they wereafraid, and so if I could let
their anger spin out and then Icould speak to their fear, we
could make a difference in thesituation.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Hey, I'm trying to pull a book up right now.
I read so many books and getrecommended so many books.
There's four, and I'll use yourlanguage four primary emotions
and that a lot of other emotionsgather around these four poles.
Two of them are positive, twoof them are negative and they
(14:53):
work against or with one anotheror counter to one another.
So it's fear.
The opposite of fear is love,kind of an opening response.
Fear is a kind of closing in onourselves response.
Shame, anger can often beconnected to fear.
And then the other kind ofnegative emotion is pride, kind
(15:15):
of the puffing up, look at me.
And the opposite of pride isobviously humility.
Have you heard those kind offour and a lot of our other
emotions are going to somehoworient around those, those four
primary emotions.
Have you done any work there,kim?
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Well, we in psychology we typically talk
about the primary emotions andthen the more nuanced emotions,
and so if I'm talking toteachers, for instance, about
teaching childrenself-regulation, in the process
we need to bring them out of thereally big emotions and help
them to learn a more nuanced.
So if you're angry, maybe whatyou really feel is frustrated,
(15:54):
but I like what you're talkingabout because you're setting up
some opposites and so it feelslike you might be able to go
from anger into love with theright kind of care, or fear into
openness with the right kind ofcare, and I think that's
important to pay attention to.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
Yeah, yeah, that's.
There's so much that we cantalk about.
The last question, and thenwe'll get into a little bit more
of the nuances of your book iswhat's fascinating to you about
the brain?
It sounds like you've done somebrain.
You know the prefrontal cortex.
I mean our goal is to move fromthe amygdala fight, flight,
(16:35):
freeze, fawn those are four Fwords that then lead us toward
connection and joy, kind offuels, toward kind of curiosity.
Prefrontal cortex, curiosity,connection, et cetera, Anything
more.
That's kind of blowing yourmind, if you will, regarding
brain science today, Kim.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
Well, I taught a class on positive psychology and
so I'm guessing that some ofthe books you've read are in
that topic area and that's awhole new aspect of psychology.
That's really fascinating.
But when you keep talking aboutjoy and we can connect that
with gratitude and one of thebenefits of that is that it
really opens up our thinking sothat we are paying attention to
(17:17):
more things and there's morepossibilities, and so that would
be in contrast to what we do infight or flight, when we narrow
some things down to focus on aparticular thing.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
Yeah, yeah, that's really good there is so much
there.
There is so much, and the onlyway this is a little bit of
family systems theory as wellthe only way I can get to the
prefrontal cortex, because lifeis scary, there are threats,
right, and I could go to, I may.
I need to recognize in highstress situations am I?
(17:58):
Do I fight, do I freeze, do Iflee, do I fawn and kind of?
That's a new one for me.
I kind of acquiesce, I lose myindividuality and I'll just
allow this is this is the abusedlover kind of paradigm, right,
and I'm just going to kind ofstay in that.
I'm not going to draw theboundary, I'm going to just find
whatever, but I'm shut downemotionally.
So what is my kind of primarygo-to when I'm facing adversity,
struggle, the difficultconversation, et cetera.
(18:18):
We need to know ourselvesbetter there.
But what gets us to ourprefrontal cortex?
Our two primary emotions in myexperience is joy, which is
curiosity.
What's out there, even in andthrough the difficult
conversation that I'm having,the threat that comes outside of
me man, I know God because yourtrack record is perfect I know
(18:39):
on the other side of this isgoing to be learning and hope
and growth.
The other primary emotion iswhat Jesus brings in the locked
upper room.
Right?
I like to think of my heart.
It's locked up in sin, closedin on myself, and Jesus enters
into the locked upper room of myheart and he says peace, be
with you, peace, be with you.
(19:00):
It's going to be okay, right?
Anything more about peace?
Speaker 1 (19:04):
Well, I like how you're talking about the
prefrontal cortex, because ifthose emotions go too quickly to
the prefrontal cortex, that'swhen we start to make mistakes.
But if, on those big emotions,those fight, flight or freeze
emotions, if we stop and go togratitude to God, that's going
(19:25):
to move us more into joy becausewe look at what has God done
for us already and that's whatthe Psalms teach us over and
over again.
So now, if I've moved myselfinto gratitude and joy, now I
can go to the prefrontal cortexand I've got God along with me,
helping me to hopefully makebetter decisions.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Amen, amen, all right .
So the second part of thisconversation so pumped for this
is self-care.
Every caregiver needs acaregiver.
Say more about why this is soand I guess, being a pastor, I
am grateful.
This is not a perfect communityby any stretch.
(20:07):
You know, we got, we got areasof growth and um, but one area
that my faith community isreally, really striving in, I
would say thriving in, is thissense of mutual care.
Uh, that that I am, while I amthe senior pastor, we don't even
use that.
I'm one of the pastors here.
(20:28):
I'm not, I'm not set up like asthe Bible and you know, and some
people can say it's kind oflonely at the at the top.
That's not something, that's noteven anything that's kind of in
our world.
While there is order andstructure, relationally there's
a, there's a flatness, I guess,to the community I find myself
in.
That gives me a lot of well, Ican have wild days and there can
(20:52):
be a lot of other things goingon in my day, but I realize
Christ and the community aretaking care of that and so I can
just kind of be where I am andthat's a huge.
So I'm speaking as a caregiverwho feels cared for Kim.
I guess that's how I'm landingthat and I just want that so
much for everyone else.
And if anyone else has heard meover the years talk about
(21:13):
leadership development, itreally there's a selfish
component because there's ashared nature for the ministry.
It's not just me, it's Christ,and then it's us carrying out
the ministry.
So say more about why it's sonecessary for leaders like me to
have those that are caring forme.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
It's so important because of the position that
you're in.
But that's even analogous tosomebody who's caring for a
parent, or a spouse too, becauseyou're taking on a new
leadership role.
When I started taking care ofmy parents, now suddenly I'm
parenting my parents, so that'sa new leadership role.
When I started taking care ofmy parents, now suddenly I'm
parenting my parents, so that'sa new leadership role.
(21:53):
And so I can't just look atwhat are the things that they
need me to do.
I need to think about how do Imake sure I'm in a position
where I can do that.
When I talk to caregivers, Italk about the two things that
you can do to benefit yourcaregiving, and one of them is
feed your faith, and the otherone is find your fellowship.
(22:15):
And so I'll talk, especially ifyou're you know you think that
dementia may be in your future,for you or for a spouse, or
something.
You want to feed your faith,because those neural pathways
need to be strong, those Bibleverses, the creed, the Lord's
prayer, that needs to be strong,and it tends to stay with
(22:37):
someone way past their beingable to understand other things.
And so that shared faith isimportant, but it's important
for you too, so that when youpanic your brain doesn't go to
what can I do about it.
Your brain goes to what has Godalready done about it.
But the one that we don't thinkof so much is that find your
fellowship one, find your groupof people.
(22:59):
Now I'm involved in a smallgroup at my church.
I absolutely love small groups.
I could do 50 minutes for youon psychologically why that's
important.
But you don't need it becauseyou're doing that in your
congregation too.
But in that small group we'renot just developing the secular
(23:20):
understanding of fellowship.
My mind always goes to one ofthe five Greek words that I know
.
My mind always goes to koinonia, that really intimate kind of
relationship.
And that's the relationship.
Okay, in the Bible I think ofMoses and his father-in-law.
There's Jethro coming to visitand the first thing Jethro does
(23:44):
is he listens when Moses tellshim about everything God did,
and then Jethro watches Moses gothrough a day and then Jethro
has that kind of intimaterelationship with Moses where he
can say this is not good, andthat's his response this is not
good what you have set up here.
It's going to wear you out,it's not going to work.
(24:06):
And isn't that what a caregiverneeds.
First and foremost.
When I've talked to reallysuccessful pastors like you who
are balancing so many differentthings, almost always they say
there's someone out there who isa caregiver for me, or there's
something like a congregationsaying, yes, you need a
sabbatical, you need thisbecause you've got to be cared
(24:31):
for.
And I love the way you doministry at your church, the
flattening out of the hierarchytoo, because you're not only
equipping your members to doministry, you're making it
possible for you to be theleader and to have the vision
and to move things forward,because you're not in charge of
every little thing.
Yeah and this whole speakingapplies, I think, to caregiving
(24:54):
that I have to let go of somethings and let other people do
it for me so that I can be therefor the person that needs my
care.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
Yeah, wow, there's so much there.
Some people are better atthings than I'm like I have not
been.
I'm not God, I can't be allthings for all people.
And there are people justspeaking about caregiving,
because I've done hundreds offunerals, I've sat with people
(25:24):
in their later moments and I'mgood.
I'm good in those.
I can say I'm good.
But there are people in ourcommunity who are great at it
and for a variety of reasons,they maybe have a little bit
more time and I just feel so andthey've been trained.
You know there's more.
(25:44):
They probably had more trainingthan than I've even had in
those Steven ministry et cetera,and and and so like my
conscience is 100% clean.
I like I'm at peace with thefact that we've got a spiritual
care team, pastor Michael Hyden.
He's our associate pastor here,partner pastor and and he's
he's better at it than I am andhe's training up a team we got
(26:06):
like 20, this is so, so cool.
There's like 25 people on ourspiritual care team who are
getting ongoing training, whoare connecting with all of our
homebound and those that are inthe hospital.
If you're in the hospital, it'slike day like that team is
gonna be, kind of overwhelmingmaybe.
So there's like an army ofpeople who are there and then if
(26:27):
you're long-term needinglong-term care, there's so
there's like an army of peoplewho are there and then if you're
long term needing long termcare, there's someone from our
community that's reaching outwithin a personal connection
phone call every single week forthat brother or sister in
Christ and there's no possibleway I could do like that's a
full time job like just doingthat Right.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
So it would be a full time job for two pastors
Exactly Large church like yours.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
Yeah, it would be a full-time job for two pastors at
a large church like yours, yeah, so I feel so good that there
are people who are just betterat that part of the ministry.
You think of the early church,right as they started to put
together the structure and thatwas early on the call of the
deacons waiting on tables takingcare of widows and those that
(27:10):
are sick.
Right, they were raising updeacons.
The apostles were doing that sothat they could focus on time
in the world.
It didn't mean that, well, Idon't have time for you, right,
I can't sit with you, I can't be, no, no, no, no, no, it's just,
it would be better if we raisedup other servants and the wider
(27:30):
role of deacon was all theother things that are necessary
as the faith community starts totake shape.
The systems, the structure, thehomebound care, all of the
inter, like the apostles thatappeared by the Spirit's power,
obviously were very wise atraising up other leaders.
Anything more to say?
And there may be pastors thatare listening to this and
they're like, oh, my goodness,that takes a lot of work.
Well, I'll give you the one,the 30.
(27:55):
If you can train someone upthere's a lot of research into
this it's a one to 30 minuterule.
If you can train up someone,spend 30 minutes with them to
take one minute away from youand you can move that out with
math.
That exponentially frees you upover over time.
(28:15):
Uh, but a lot of I think a lotof leaders just struggle with
that means I'm going to have tospend time.
No, no, no.
You're creating time for you todo the things that you've been
put on planet earth to do intothe future.
If you just invest in in thosewho are in your church and I'll
land the plane with this, Kim, Ithink in all of our churches
there are women and men who aresaying I'd like to help.
(28:36):
I don't know exactly how Icould help, but I'd like to help
.
Anything more to say aboutpastors and other leaders
equipping the saints based ontheir gifting, Because that's
where we're kind of orientingright now.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
Well, I want to look at this idea of what kind of
mindset you have when you're aleader, because I spoke with
teachers especially quite a bitabout this post-COVID and
leaders are on the forefront.
So anytime there's a change ora crisis, you're in there
thinking first what needs to bedone and teachers felt that then
(29:08):
during COVID too.
But what happens in our brainand this is a gift that God
built into our brain I'mthinking first what needs to be
done, and teachers felt that.
Then during COVID too.
But what happens to in ourbrain and this is a gift that
God built into our brain we gointo what I call superhero
syndrome and the brain changesenough to be able to pull up
into your memory all the othertimes when you've been through
(29:28):
something difficult and who arethe people that have helped you
and what are the emotions thatwere helpful in those situations
.
It all comes forward Now.
The benefit of that is that itgives you confidence to just do
what you need to do.
The disadvantage of it?
Because any gift God gives us,we find a way to turn into a sin
, don't we?
The disadvantage is we staystuck in that mode and we think,
(29:53):
yeah, I got this, this is aboutme, or this can't be done
unless I do it.
But in reality, when we look atour vocations, whether it's me
thinking about caring for othersor you thinking about your
primary vocation as a pastor,we're not doing it.
The solution comes from God.
(30:14):
We just do the work he setsbefore us, and he can choose to
set that work in front ofsomeone in your congregation
just as much as he sets it infront of you.
And so if God can make thathappen through you, god can make
it happen through someone inyour congregation too, and that
person just needs your supportmost of the time.
(30:34):
To know that the pastor said Ican move into this area and
here's the training the churchis providing for me.
I really think we need to thinkabout that more.
I mean because we just we can'tbe a one man show or a two man
show in our congregations.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Well, if there was ever anyone who had the right to
do the superhero thing, it wasJesus.
And Jesus didn't even do thesuperhero thing.
I mean, obviously, he was asuperhero that perfectly
fulfilled the law, died ourdeath on the cross, bodily rose
again.
But in the midst of Jesus'ministry, he invites 12, and
(31:14):
there's more than 12.
There are women, and thenthere's the 70.
There's plenty of others towalk with him and see how he did
it, watch his rhythms of rest,to work, to experience Jesus
sending out the 12, sending outthe 70, jesus even giving the
disciples.
I'm thinking of two differentstories.
(31:34):
You go, heal him.
Well, we can't heal him inJesus.
Oh, you have little faith.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
Or feeding the five you give them something to eat,
like.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Jesus actually invited people into ministry
life with him, and I thinkoftentimes we that we'd separate
the humanity of Jesus from thedivinity of Jesus, and I guess
that's helpful.
But the divine man is is givingus a model and example for how
to do life dependent upon thewill of father, and then arms
(32:03):
open wide to experience thehighs and the lows, the joys and
the sorrows of intimate lifewith others, all for the sake of
multiplying them after hisascension by the Spirit's power
to do the exact same thing.
I have to believe that in theearly church, beyond the
(32:24):
epistles, etc.
They're going back to oh, lookat Jesus.
He gave us permission to dothis, but he also gave us
permission to develop otherpeople based on their gifting to
do it.
That is the Jesus way.
And to land this plane, I thinkfor too long, I think in the
LCMS, I think we've becomeimbalanced, and it's in
unhealthy ways, toward theoffice of holy ministry, and I
(32:47):
don't just say that because Ithink other people should be
preaching or teaching oradministering the sacrament.
It's not even about that, andso that could be our primary
focus and then all of the otherthings that the body of Christ
needs to be healthy and to bemobilized for mission would be
lived out.
Anything more to say about theself-care of Jesus that led him
to mobilize his disciples formission there?
Speaker 1 (33:08):
Kim of Jesus that led him to mobilize his disciples
for mission there.
Kim Well, one of my favoritequestions that you sent to me
was about Jesus and his rhythmof self-care.
It's my favorite questionbecause it made me go.
Oh, I've never thought of thatbefore, but you know, I'm
thinking in particular of threestories, and this one, the first
one goes along with what yousaid about equipping people, and
(33:29):
this one the first one goesalong with what you said about
equipping people.
But I'm remembering the storyof Jesus on the beach fixing
breakfast for the disciples, andthat's one of their last times
to have seen Jesus.
So you might think that Jesusis thinking okay, I'm going to
be ascending into heaven and sothis is my last chance to give a
little bit more training.
No, you know, he's not doinganother lecture, he's fixing
(33:57):
them breakfast and he took themaway from their work of fishing.
And to me and you can tell me ifthis is heresy, because I don't
have your background inscripture, but to me the message
is if you're going to do thework you got to eat is if you're
going to do the work, you gotto eat and you need to eat
healthy, you need to do thosekinds of things.
And I think he's telling themtoo as you go out into these
communities, I'm going to havepeople there who are going to
(34:20):
take care of you.
Don't feel guilty about sittingdown to a big meal, because
they're caring for you, aren'tthey?
And then I, you know, I Can wepause on that, kim?
I want your two more stories.
Because they're caring for you,aren't they?
And then I, you know, I alsothink.
Can we pause on that, kim?
Speaker 2 (34:31):
I want your two more stories.
I love this this is sofascinating.
That is the story of Jesus'restoration of Peter after
Peter's denied him three times.
You know, it's the Lord, it'sthe Lord.
They jump in, jesus is waitingfor them and it says they didn't
say anything, they knew it wasthe Lord.
(34:53):
There was like this kind of Ithink Jesus is just kind of
smiling.
They're like is it you?
Speaker 1 (34:59):
Yeah, it's you, you know, but he didn't have to
Before it's even stopped.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
Yeah, yeah, he didn't have to say much of anything
and he was just taking care oftheir first article needs God as
creator, providing sustenancefrom his creation.
That has to be that breakfast.
I would love to be just one whogets to look.
I want to talk to Peter.
What was that whole experiencelike, hanging out with a risen
(35:24):
Jesus?
And then final thing is itrelates to mobilizing for
mission.
Right, jesus says feed my sheep, feed my sheep, do you love me?
Do you love me?
Peter says you know I love.
He doesn't just say yeah, Ilove you, you love me.
No, no, no.
He gives them this higher call,this higher vision that would
be ratified at Pentecost as theHoly Spirit descended.
So, so good, love that story,so much it's.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
Well, I'm thinking about Jesus giving himself
respite care, because respitecare is a big thing we talk
about in caregiving and it's sodiscouraging to me how hard it
can be to get caregivers toaccept someone else coming in
and taking care of their lovedones so they can have that rest,
(36:05):
they can have that respite.
So how does Jesus do respitecare?
Well, he's a caregiver foreverybody, so his only way of
doing that is to go off alone topray, to pull himself away from
all those needs.
If you can imagine Jesuswalking on the earth and every
person he looks at, he knows theneed, the deep need of that
(36:27):
person.
He has to get away and that'sso very important that we get
away.
Just like it's important foryou to get away in a sabbatical,
it's important for us to getaway from that work, to have
rest and to refocus our minds onJesus so that when we come back
into that work, we're doing itfor Jesus and not for anything
(36:50):
else.
So I think that's a good onetoo.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
I love that.
And they end up.
They keep pursuing him like the.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
Christians.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
There's so many times in the gospels where, where did
you go, jesus?
Where'd you go?
And she's like you can kind ofsit.
I went to spend time with thefather.
I'd invite you to go do thesame.
And then I think of his lasttime of prayer, the night he was
betrayed.
You know he just wants to spendtime with the father and he
also wants to spend time inprayer with his followers.
(37:21):
Could you not watch and pray?
You know you're willing, butthe flesh is weak, right, and he
recognizes their humanity andultimately surrenders himself to
the will of the father and tothe presence of the father, who
would be with him through deathto life.
But I love that he had to wantto get away.
Jesus constantly was gettingaway.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
So, kim, last story, that really helps us as we think
of self-care.
And this Bible story is myfavorite as a former
kindergarten teacher that Jesusnapping in the boat when the
storm comes in.
But if we look at it from theviewpoint of a caregiver, jesus
gets into the boat.
He's exhausted, but he knowswhat's coming.
(38:04):
And if he's thinking, well,they can't get along without me,
he would say to himself I'm notgoing to sleep, I better stay
awake.
So when the disciples areafraid, I can comfort them.
Yada, yada, yada.
But he doesn't.
He says I'm going to sleep, myfather is in charge, I'm going
to sleep.
And when the disciples wake himup, they're in a state of
terror.
See what they, what they wereable to experience, to go from
(38:27):
terror to complete faith andtrust that Jesus could stop that
storm.
But Jesus didn't push off sleep, he knew that that rest was
important too.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
I love that, don't you care?
We're embarrassing.
They say that to Jesus, don'tyou care?
Or I think of Mary and Martha,don't you care?
Speaker 1 (38:56):
It's like where is you heard my brother was sick
and you didn't come.
Yeah, didn't come.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
Right, don't you care ?
Yeah, he obviously cares and hewants us to care for us as he,
as Jesus in his flesh cared for,cared for himself to set those
rhythms of rest.
Self-care is not, is notselfish.
Um, talk about this an awfullot.
Let's go into how you startyour day on the morning, own the
(39:22):
day.
I think a lot of us just get upinto our days, especially if
you're like me and your days aregoing to be really full.
I don't think we go to bedearly enough, nor do I think
we're waking up early enough toset our day right, and for me it
looks like I'm not going to gothrough the whole thing because
it's kind of quite comprehensive.
I'm slightly neurotic in termsof my mornings, kim, but I'm
(39:44):
very, very disciplined in termsof water and stretching and some
of my supplements that I taketo kind of start the day, and I
do intermittent fasting, so Idon't eat, especially when I'm
working between.
I only eat between noon and six.
So the digestion system brainbeing your brain, the second
(40:05):
brain is obviously your gut, andso just making sure
everything's kind of workingwell as we start our morning.
So anything more to say abouthow we set good rhythms, habits,
to shape our mornings, kim.
Speaker 1 (40:16):
I think the key word there is rhythms to do that,
because I'm a dedicated nightowl, like my father was.
My father taught at Concordiain Nebraska and he agreed to be
head of the math and sciencedepartment because he could set
his own schedule and not have tocome in until chapel time.
So that's how dedicated we areto being a night owl.
(40:38):
But I married a dedicatedmorning larch and so that's part
of our transition right now isthat it used to be he was up
really early and then he wouldleave for work and I could have
my slow beginning, and now Ifind myself changing and getting
up earlier.
I'm hopefully not out of guilt,but I also have to have certain
(40:59):
things that I do before I askmyself to do a thinking thing do
before I ask myself to do athinking thing because I am out
of a rhythm for where my bodywants to be.
And so I go through thosethings yes, my exercises, the
water drinking that I need to do, taking my vitamins, fixing my
caffeine for the day, but then Ilike before I start any work.
(41:23):
But then I like before I startany work, my first thing needs
to be my Bible reading and myprayer time, it just centers me
for the day, and my favorite isthe Today's Light Bible.
I've done a lot of differentBible reading programs, but this
is one from CPH from a longtime ago and I'm on my fifth
(41:44):
time through.
It's a three year journeythrough the Bible, but each
section that you read startswith that opening thought and
ends with a short devotion, andI just love that.
Speaker 2 (41:56):
That's so good.
There's a lot of research rightnow, kim I don't know if you
know this around Bible readingand wellness, that I think if
it's four or more times a week,you're in the word.
Your mental health isexponentially increased.
So why would we be surprised Imean, we shouldn't be surprised
(42:18):
that when the word of God worksin us it changes absolutely
everything heart, body, mind,spirit.
We're more alive.
We get to our prefrontal cortexthrough our dysfunctional
emotions.
Why?
Because we realize I love yourfaith and fellowship.
We realize we're held by theGod of the universe who will
never leave us nor forsake us.
So, no matter what thechallenges come in this day, I
(42:38):
trust his promises.
Like I want to orient the startof my day, obviously throughout
the day, but when I start theday orienting on God's promises,
man, it's so, so much better.
Any more observations aroundbeing in the word and its
benefits, Kim?
Speaker 1 (42:53):
Well, it's interesting that you mentioned
research on that, because thereis really a whole branch of
psychology that studies peopleof faith.
It's huge, and even doing mydissertation at a public
university, nobody blinked aneye when I brought that aspect
into my dissertation too.
(43:14):
It's very strong.
It comes up again and again andagain, and I think what we were
talking about before, about theidea of joy and how joy opens
up your mind I think that's oneof the key things.
I can read scripture, and Imight be reading a really down
and dirty story from the OldTestament, but I know the end of
(43:36):
the story and so it alwaysbrings me to joy.
So why wouldn't that make youhealthier?
It's going to make you think ofhealthier things to do.
It's going to make you feelbetter.
It's going to counteractdepressive thoughts.
All of those things cometogether like that and it's just
, it's a joy for me to readabout that and say, huh, I like
(44:00):
that.
The secular world hasdiscovered something God put in
place a long time ago.
Yeah, amen, yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:07):
Amen, amen.
Well, this is.
We're just about at time.
This time has flown by so fast.
This has been one of my mostfun podcasts, and not that every
podcast isn't fun, but this Idon't know.
I've just been juiced gettingto talk to you, kim.
You're a gift to the body ofChrist.
Final word for those who may bein your season I got a number
(44:28):
of friends right now who arecaring for my pastor friend is
caring for his father-in-law ashe moves into hospice care right
now.
So praying for the Sutherlandfamily.
What word of care and hopeperseverance, would you offer to
those that are caring for agingparents or in-laws, Kim?
Speaker 1 (44:50):
You know, for me it would be what I try to do every
day, which is to reorient mybrain Instead of thinking I'm
becoming this person's superheroand I need to do everything.
I need to rewrite that andremember that the big things are
being taken care of by God andI need to do the little things
(45:12):
in front of me.
And just a quick story.
I was trying to get a loved oneonto Medicaid and it was a
five-month process, which wasone frustrating thing after the
other, and then I finally had acase worker call me and say
we're starting all over again,and I said I cannot even.
I can't even, I'm going to haveto call you next week.
(45:34):
By Monday, I had five letters inthe mail telling me that
someone at the Department ofHealth and Human Services had
enrolled this person in Medicaid.
So, in spite of all of myfrustration and my feeling like
this is to me, god already tookcare of it.
And the second thing I wouldsay is look for those people.
(45:56):
Look for those people who canhelp you, especially if you are
a church worker and you're, youknow, a teacher used to being on
their own in the classroom, apastor oh my goodness, this is
all on me.
Look for people who can helpyou.
The people in your communitywant to help you so good.
Speaker 2 (46:15):
Well, this has been awesome, Kim.
Listener, pick up Weary Joy.
It's an excellent, excellentread.
Thank you for that work.
And if people want to followyou and your upcoming work, Kim,
how can they do so?
Speaker 1 (46:27):
Well, my website is kimmarkselsonnet, so that's the
easiest way to get a hold of me.
Speaker 2 (46:34):
Yeah, so good, so good.
This is the Tim Allman Podcast.
Sharon is caring.
Please go to YouTube if youhaven't subscribed there.
That really really helps getthe algorithm up so that more
people find these hope-filled,joy-filled podcasts like this.
Kim, you're a gift to me, ourfamilies, we go back a ways, so
thanks for staying connected andlooking forward to the next
time.
(46:54):
There's so many other thingswe're going to have to have you
back on.
There's so many other thingsregarding positive psychology
that we could have gone into,but that will be for another day
.
Another time and I'm sograteful for you.
Please, please, share this withsomeone who needs hope and joy.
It is the fuel for arelationship with the God of the
universe and relationship withothers created in his image.
(47:15):
It's a good day.
Go and make it a great day.
Thanks so much, kim.
Speaker 1 (47:17):
Thank you.
I'm remembering the story of Jesus on the beach
fixing breakfast for thedisciples, and that's one of
their last times to have seenJesus.
So you might think that Jesusis thinking okay, I'm going to
be ascending into heaven and sothis is my last chance to give a
little bit more training.
No, you know, he's not doinganother lecture.
He's fixing them breakfast andhe took them away from their
(00:23):
work of fishing.
He's fixing them breakfast andhe took them away from their
work of fishing.
And to me and you can tell meif this is heresy, because I
don't have your background inscripture, but to me the message
is if you're going to do thework, you got to eat, and then
you need to eat healthy, youneed to do those kinds of things
.
And I think he's he tellingthem too, as you go out into
(00:44):
these communities, I'm going tohave people there who are going
to take care of you.
Don't feel guilty about sittingdown to a big meal, because
they're caring for you, aren'tthey?
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Welcome to the Tim Allman Podcast.
I pray.
The joy of Jesus is with youtoday.
He has great joy.
He has great delight over you,regardless.
This is why I love being in aLutheran tradition.
Regardless and before anythingyou think, do or say any
accolades that come your way, hecan't be, jesus can't be any
more proud of you and in lovewith you than he is right now,
(01:23):
simply by faith, and today, Ihope you're excited for a great
conversation with KimMarkshausen.
She is an adjunct professor,writer, blogger, speaker.
She has her PhD in educationalpsychology and more than 20
years experience caring forin-laws, and we're going to hear
a little bit of that storytoday.
(01:44):
Both of her in-laws experienceddementia, and how do we?
This conversation is going tobe about caring for the
caregiver.
She's the author of it OnlyTakes a Spark and Paper, paint
and Print.
She's been in the educationalspace for some time.
She has contributed manydevotions, she's been in portals
(02:04):
of prayer and she's currentlyworking on a book Caring for
Students with Autism.
How are you doing today, though, kim?
Speaker 1 (02:12):
I'm doing well, thank you.
I'm excited to be here, yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
I love it, one of my favorite topics, for sure.
This is going to be so much fun.
I've been looking forward to it.
So let's start with joy.
Let's hunt the good stuff.
How is Jesus currently givingyou joy?
How does joy fuel your dailywalk with Jesus, Kim?
Speaker 1 (02:31):
I think for my husband and I we have a new
sense of joy because Paul justretired after 40 years of
working for the university and Ican see that God is slowing
down my schedule.
I don't actually have a job.
I usually say I'm chronicallyunemployed because I go from one
contract to the other, but Isee God slowing things down and
(02:52):
the joy for me is how, when wecan set aside that kind of
earning your living work for awhile now, I can find more joy
in the other vocations that Godgives me, and one of them, of
course, being caring for threepeople right at the moment,
three people who are in their90s.
But just the other day my dadcalled and said I can't find my
(03:18):
sewing kit.
I you know I can't get thisbutton sewed on my pants, and so
I was able to just dropeverything and go over there and
do that.
And what a spot of joy in myday to spend that little bit of
time with my dad.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
I love that so much.
You know when you're in aseason of life like I'm in right
now I got three high schoolersand you know the schedules, the
events and then kind of helpingto lead a church and things.
My day is so ridiculouslyscheduled when I'm in, you know,
and it's annoying.
(03:54):
I've actually I mean it is whatit is but I actually, you know
you run hard.
God made me a certain way.
I'm definitely driven and I'mreally looking forward right now
.
Kim, full transparency for asabbatical I'm taking for 10
weeks this summer Every sevenyears.
Our congregation gives that andI'm actually exploring with our
(04:18):
team what does it look like Now?
Maybe certain ministry leaderscan't always take 10 weeks for
this or that, but what would itlook like for us to get a wider
rhythm of rest for our team?
The cool thing about the Valleyis kind of everybody rests in
June and July Things kind ofcome to a screeching halt
because it's hellaciously hotoutside, it's 120 and people
(04:39):
just kind of flee, flee theValley.
So there's a little bit of likerest and reset time that takes
place in our in our summer.
But as I'm coming out of mysabbatical and even looking at
my calendar, my calendar wouldgive people maybe PTSD that I've
ever been in a season, a seasonlike this.
For me it's just one day, onemoment, one, one conversation at
a time.
That's the only way I can kindof function.
(04:59):
But even even coming out of mysabbatical I'm looking forward
to developing a little bitbetter margin in my days.
And this is around kind ofboundaries.
It's saying we can talk aroundthis or that because I get
invited into a lot ofconversations around, not just
things at our church but in thewider church and getting better,
(05:23):
I think, at saying no or justnot yet into some of those
conversations just so I can be agood husband and father.
Go ahead, Kim.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
You need to have that white space in your calendar
White space.
You don't have white space inyour calendar right now.
But I also think of a greatphrase a friend taught me when
somebody's asking me to dosomething, and that's to say my
heart says yes, but my calendarsays no, it's a nice way of
saying that's an important thing, but because it's important, I
(05:54):
can't do that for you right now.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Yeah, so I'm figuring that out, kim.
I'm a work in progress, butnonetheless, the reason I like
podcasts is it just is a setaside time to hear stories and
then release the people and thestories to the Lord in their
respective contexts and to say,oh yeah.
As I think back after thisconversation, I'm sure your name
(06:18):
will come to me as I look atyour reading and what you've as
I read your books.
I just pray for, pray for Kim,and and, and you do the same for
me.
And then I can release thatperson into the caring love of
Christ and community in theirrespective context.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Isn't that good to not have to be God for people.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
What's that?
Speaker 1 (06:40):
How can we survive without it?
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Exactly, exactly.
So let's get into your story abit.
What led you to write Weary Joyin 2019?
And I think, man, I put atimestamp, I'm 2019.
Little did we know what wewould be walking into, why we'd
need that Weary Joy perspectiveheading into the COVID season.
So tell the story about writingWeary Joy.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
Well, the first reason that I wrote it is pretty
typical and that is becausethere's a need.
I haven't actually been acaregiver since I was extremely
young, but I took up caregivingfor my in-laws when I wasn't
even 40 yet, so I kept lookingfor resources and I didn't find
them.
I think quite often when anindividual has a crisis, like
(07:26):
they have a diagnosis or anaccident or a stroke, our
concern is for that person.
And when we know they havesomeone caring for them, we've
kind of ticked off a box in ourbrain and so we just don't go
that next step and look at thatcaregiver too, you know, because
we're focused on the personwho's receiving care.
(07:48):
But as I was caring forespecially my in-laws, I got the
urge to jot down stories and Iwould write them down.
And I didn't analyze them atthat time.
I just wrote them down becauseI thought this is something I
want to remember.
And so, when I was getting mydegree in cognition and
development and I'm learningmore about how we think and I'm
(08:10):
learning more about how ouremotions impact how we think and
the decisions that we make, tolook back at that stories and
say now I know why my brain said, that's an important story, and
so that's why in the book, eachchapter doesn't start with a
problem.
Each chapter starts with astory, it starts with a shared
(08:30):
experience, and then we moveinto an explanation for it, and
then we move into God's grace,because we need to hear that all
the time.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Yeah, yeah, no, I love that.
So could we go deeper?
Just put a pin in that, becauseI want to come back to the
story.
And what is it about the brain?
You talk about how we think andthen how emotions are connected
to, and this is, I mean, joy,is the fuel for a brain that
that move, or a body that movesout in connection and community
(09:03):
with, with other people.
We definitely, we definitelyknow that.
And so what is theinterconnection between how we
think, emotions and story?
Could you draw a through linebetween those three points of
view as it relates to psychology?
Speaker 1 (09:18):
Well, we can't really learn anything without emotions
, and that was something thatwas really blew my mind when I
first came to understand it.
And the reason is becauseeverything we learn gets encoded
in our brain with the emotionsthat we're feeling at that
moment.
And so when we go back and readover a story, your brain is
(09:41):
setting electrical light tothose neural pathways that
connect to that story.
But the neural pathways move onand connect to emotions you
were feeling at that time andconnect to other times when you
felt that way, and that's ashortcut for our brain to be
able to pull up resources for usthen to be able to analyze that
(10:04):
story or to be able to make adecision.
It's all really connected andit's just so beautiful the way
God designed it.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Hmm, it really is.
Sometimes I've wondered if,because we're now I come from a
Lutheran background, lutheranLutheran background, lutheran
background, lutheran backgroundthe story of kind of the stoic
German Lutheran and we're morereserved generally and we can
(10:34):
even theologically justify, Iwould say, squelching our
emotions because we don't wantto become overly emotional,
because then somehow that showof emotion, especially as it
relates to our faith, is usclimbing some kind of emotional
ladder to get closer to God andany kind of interconnection
(10:57):
there.
I got my thoughts.
I'd love to hear yours.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Yeah, well, I mean first of all, if you read the
Psalms, you find emotions, forsure.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
All over the place.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
And you find a lot of emotions and you find the
really hard emotions too.
But what's happening in thebrain is, as you start to make a
decision or as you'reexperiencing something, your
brain chooses the emotion thatit feels is most appropriate and
that's coming from deep down inthe brain, the amygdala and the
(11:27):
hippocampus, and so that firstemotion tends to be the right
one because it hasn't gonethrough our prefrontal cortex.
We haven't thought about it.
But if that emotion isuncomfortable and that's what
you're talking about, aboutrepressing those emotions if
being afraid or being angry isuncomfortable, our brain picks
up a secondary emotion, and thatcan be a problem.
(11:50):
So, as children of God, we needto follow the dictates of the
lament psalms and admit to thosescary emotions and sit in them
and explain them to God and thengive that emotion up to God,
and that's how we can deal withthose really strong emotions.
(12:12):
But we need them.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Well, Dan, you brought up a term that I don't
think I've wrestled withSecondary emotions.
Secondary emotions and I thinkI know where you're going there
and why only giving into, Iwould say, or recognizing,
identifying, speaking secondaryemotions is unhelpful.
(12:35):
Could you go deeper on why justleading from secondary emotions
is unhelpful?
Speaker 1 (12:44):
That's interesting to me because one of the first
times I talked in a publicsetting about primary and
secondary emotions, I wastalking about care doing, and
when I was done, I found myselfsurrounded by a ring of pastors
which as a commissioned workerdoes make me a little nervous
One at a time, but a whole ringof them and they all said to me
we need to hear more aboutprimary and secondary emotions.
And that is so true for anybodywho does caring, whether you're
(13:07):
the pastor or a teacher or DCE.
That secondary emotion reallymesses us up because it's not
appropriate.
And when we're caring forsomeone, we need to recognize
that that's a secondary emotionand move them back into the
primary emotion.
So here's an example.
I'm going to use COVID.
(13:28):
I hope I don't get myself introuble because it might still
be too soon, but most of usreacted to COVID with an amount
of fear.
And that was an appropriatereaction, because a global
pandemic is a scary thing.
Now we don't want to stay infear.
We want to lament that fear toGod and let God be in control.
(13:49):
But I saw too many people whoturn that fear into anger.
And then is their responseappropriate, because what you do
in anger is not the kind ofstuff that's going to help you
make wise decisions in what is afearful situation where God is
in control.
(14:10):
But we see that I saw it as ateacher all the time too a
parent really angry aboutsomething they heard about in
class when in reality they wereafraid, and so if I could let
their anger spin out and then Icould speak to their fear, we
could make a difference in thesituation.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Hey, I'm trying to pull a book up right now.
I read so many books and getrecommended so many books.
There's four, and I'll use yourlanguage four primary emotions
and that a lot of other emotionsgather around these four poles.
Two of them are positive, twoof them are negative and they
(14:53):
work against or with one anotheror counter to one another.
So it's fear.
The opposite of fear is love,kind of an opening response.
Fear is a kind of closing in onourselves response.
Shame, anger can often beconnected to fear.
And then the other kind ofnegative emotion is pride, kind
(15:15):
of the puffing up, look at me.
And the opposite of pride isobviously humility.
Have you heard those kind offour and a lot of our other
emotions are going to somehoworient around those, those four
primary emotions.
Have you done any work there,kim?
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Well, we in psychology we typically talk
about the primary emotions andthen the more nuanced emotions,
and so if I'm talking toteachers, for instance, about
teaching childrenself-regulation, in the process
we need to bring them out of thereally big emotions and help
them to learn a more nuanced.
So if you're angry, maybe whatyou really feel is frustrated,
(15:54):
but I like what you're talkingabout because you're setting up
some opposites and so it feelslike you might be able to go
from anger into love with theright kind of care, or fear into
openness with the right kind ofcare, and I think that's
important to pay attention to.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
Yeah, yeah, that's.
There's so much that we cantalk about.
The last question, and thenwe'll get into a little bit more
of the nuances of your book iswhat's fascinating to you about
the brain?
It sounds like you've done somebrain.
You know the prefrontal cortex.
I mean our goal is to move fromthe amygdala fight, flight,
(16:35):
freeze, fawn those are four Fwords that then lead us toward
connection and joy, kind offuels, toward kind of curiosity.
Prefrontal cortex, curiosity,connection, et cetera, Anything
more.
That's kind of blowing yourmind, if you will, regarding
brain science today, Kim.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
Well, I taught a class on positive psychology and
so I'm guessing that some ofthe books you've read are in
that topic area and that's awhole new aspect of psychology.
That's really fascinating.
But when you keep talking aboutjoy and we can connect that
with gratitude and one of thebenefits of that is that it
really opens up our thinking sothat we are paying attention to
(17:17):
more things and there's morepossibilities, and so that would
be in contrast to what we do infight or flight, when we narrow
some things down to focus on aparticular thing.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
Yeah, yeah, that's really good there is so much
there.
There is so much, and the onlyway this is a little bit of
family systems theory as wellthe only way I can get to the
prefrontal cortex, because lifeis scary, there are threats,
right, and I could go to, I may.
I need to recognize in highstress situations am I?
(17:58):
Do I fight, do I freeze, do Iflee, do I fawn and kind of?
That's a new one for me.
I kind of acquiesce, I lose myindividuality and I'll just
allow this is this is the abusedlover kind of paradigm, right,
and I'm just going to kind ofstay in that.
I'm not going to draw theboundary, I'm going to just find
whatever, but I'm shut downemotionally.
So what is my kind of primarygo-to when I'm facing adversity,
struggle, the difficultconversation, et cetera.
(18:18):
We need to know ourselvesbetter there.
But what gets us to ourprefrontal cortex?
Our two primary emotions in myexperience is joy, which is
curiosity.
What's out there, even in andthrough the difficult
conversation that I'm having,the threat that comes outside of
me man, I know God because yourtrack record is perfect I know
(18:39):
on the other side of this isgoing to be learning and hope
and growth.
The other primary emotion iswhat Jesus brings in the locked
upper room.
Right?
I like to think of my heart.
It's locked up in sin, closedin on myself, and Jesus enters
into the locked upper room of myheart and he says peace, be
with you, peace, be with you.
(19:00):
It's going to be okay, right?
Anything more about peace?
Speaker 1 (19:04):
Well, I like how you're talking about the
prefrontal cortex, because ifthose emotions go too quickly to
the prefrontal cortex, that'swhen we start to make mistakes.
But if, on those big emotions,those fight, flight or freeze
emotions, if we stop and go togratitude to God, that's going
(19:25):
to move us more into joy becausewe look at what has God done
for us already and that's whatthe Psalms teach us over and
over again.
So now, if I've moved myselfinto gratitude and joy, now I
can go to the prefrontal cortexand I've got God along with me,
helping me to hopefully makebetter decisions.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Amen, amen, all right .
So the second part of thisconversation so pumped for this
is self-care.
Every caregiver needs acaregiver.
Say more about why this is soand I guess, being a pastor, I
am grateful.
This is not a perfect communityby any stretch.
(20:07):
You know, we got, we got areasof growth and um, but one area
that my faith community isreally, really striving in, I
would say thriving in, is thissense of mutual care.
Uh, that that I am, while I amthe senior pastor, we don't even
use that.
I'm one of the pastors here.
(20:28):
I'm not, I'm not set up like asthe Bible and you know, and some
people can say it's kind oflonely at the at the top.
That's not something, that's noteven anything that's kind of in
our world.
While there is order andstructure, relationally there's
a, there's a flatness, I guess,to the community I find myself
in.
That gives me a lot of well, Ican have wild days and there can
(20:52):
be a lot of other things goingon in my day, but I realize
Christ and the community aretaking care of that and so I can
just kind of be where I am andthat's a huge.
So I'm speaking as a caregiverwho feels cared for Kim.
I guess that's how I'm landingthat and I just want that so
much for everyone else.
And if anyone else has heard meover the years talk about
(21:13):
leadership development, itreally there's a selfish
component because there's ashared nature for the ministry.
It's not just me, it's Christ,and then it's us carrying out
the ministry.
So say more about why it's sonecessary for leaders like me to
have those that are caring forme.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
It's so important because of the position that
you're in.
But that's even analogous tosomebody who's caring for a
parent, or a spouse too, becauseyou're taking on a new
leadership role.
When I started taking care ofmy parents, now suddenly I'm
parenting my parents, so that'sa new leadership role.
When I started taking care ofmy parents, now suddenly I'm
parenting my parents, so that'sa new leadership role.
(21:53):
And so I can't just look atwhat are the things that they
need me to do.
I need to think about how do Imake sure I'm in a position
where I can do that.
When I talk to caregivers, Italk about the two things that
you can do to benefit yourcaregiving, and one of them is
feed your faith, and the otherone is find your fellowship.
(22:15):
And so I'll talk, especially ifyou're you know you think that
dementia may be in your future,for you or for a spouse, or
something.
You want to feed your faith,because those neural pathways
need to be strong, those Bibleverses, the creed, the Lord's
prayer, that needs to be strong,and it tends to stay with
(22:37):
someone way past their beingable to understand other things.
And so that shared faith isimportant, but it's important
for you too, so that when youpanic your brain doesn't go to
what can I do about it.
Your brain goes to what has Godalready done about it.
But the one that we don't thinkof so much is that find your
fellowship one, find your groupof people.
(22:59):
Now I'm involved in a smallgroup at my church.
I absolutely love small groups.
I could do 50 minutes for youon psychologically why that's
important.
But you don't need it becauseyou're doing that in your
congregation too.
But in that small group we'renot just developing the secular
(23:20):
understanding of fellowship.
My mind always goes to one ofthe five Greek words that I know
.
My mind always goes to koinonia, that really intimate kind of
relationship.
And that's the relationship.
Okay, in the Bible I think ofMoses and his father-in-law.
There's Jethro coming to visitand the first thing Jethro does
(23:44):
is he listens when Moses tellshim about everything God did,
and then Jethro watches Moses gothrough a day and then Jethro
has that kind of intimaterelationship with Moses where he
can say this is not good, andthat's his response this is not
good what you have set up here.
It's going to wear you out,it's not going to work.
(24:06):
And isn't that what a caregiverneeds.
First and foremost.
When I've talked to reallysuccessful pastors like you who
are balancing so many differentthings, almost always they say
there's someone out there who isa caregiver for me, or there's
something like a congregationsaying, yes, you need a
sabbatical, you need thisbecause you've got to be cared
(24:31):
for.
And I love the way you doministry at your church, the
flattening out of the hierarchytoo, because you're not only
equipping your members to doministry, you're making it
possible for you to be theleader and to have the vision
and to move things forward,because you're not in charge of
every little thing.
Yeah and this whole speakingapplies, I think, to caregiving
(24:54):
that I have to let go of somethings and let other people do
it for me so that I can be therefor the person that needs my
care.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
Yeah, wow, there's so much there.
Some people are better atthings than I'm like I have not
been.
I'm not God, I can't be allthings for all people.
And there are people justspeaking about caregiving,
because I've done hundreds offunerals, I've sat with people
(25:24):
in their later moments and I'mgood.
I'm good in those.
I can say I'm good.
But there are people in ourcommunity who are great at it
and for a variety of reasons,they maybe have a little bit
more time and I just feel so andthey've been trained.
You know there's more.
(25:44):
They probably had more trainingthan than I've even had in
those Steven ministry et cetera,and and and so like my
conscience is 100% clean.
I like I'm at peace with thefact that we've got a spiritual
care team, pastor Michael Hyden.
He's our associate pastor here,partner pastor and and he's
he's better at it than I am andhe's training up a team we got
(26:06):
like 20, this is so, so cool.
There's like 25 people on ourspiritual care team who are
getting ongoing training, whoare connecting with all of our
homebound and those that are inthe hospital.
If you're in the hospital, it'slike day like that team is
gonna be, kind of overwhelmingmaybe.
So there's like an army ofpeople who are there and then if
(26:27):
you're long-term needinglong-term care, there's so
there's like an army of peoplewho are there and then if you're
long term needing long termcare, there's someone from our
community that's reaching outwithin a personal connection
phone call every single week forthat brother or sister in
Christ and there's no possibleway I could do like that's a
full time job like just doingthat Right.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
So it would be a full time job for two pastors
Exactly Large church like yours.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
Yeah, it would be a full-time job for two pastors at
a large church like yours, yeah, so I feel so good that there
are people who are just betterat that part of the ministry.
You think of the early church,right as they started to put
together the structure and thatwas early on the call of the
deacons waiting on tables takingcare of widows and those that
(27:10):
are sick.
Right, they were raising updeacons.
The apostles were doing that sothat they could focus on time
in the world.
It didn't mean that, well, Idon't have time for you, right,
I can't sit with you, I can't be, no, no, no, no, no, it's just,
it would be better if we raisedup other servants and the wider
(27:30):
role of deacon was all theother things that are necessary
as the faith community starts totake shape.
The systems, the structure, thehomebound care, all of the
inter, like the apostles thatappeared by the Spirit's power,
obviously were very wise atraising up other leaders.
Anything more to say?
And there may be pastors thatare listening to this and
they're like, oh, my goodness,that takes a lot of work.
Well, I'll give you the one,the 30.
(27:55):
If you can train someone upthere's a lot of research into
this it's a one to 30 minuterule.
If you can train up someone,spend 30 minutes with them to
take one minute away from youand you can move that out with
math.
That exponentially frees you upover over time.
(28:15):
Uh, but a lot of I think a lotof leaders just struggle with
that means I'm going to have tospend time.
No, no, no.
You're creating time for you todo the things that you've been
put on planet earth to do intothe future.
If you just invest in in thosewho are in your church and I'll
land the plane with this, Kim, Ithink in all of our churches
there are women and men who aresaying I'd like to help.
(28:36):
I don't know exactly how Icould help, but I'd like to help
.
Anything more to say aboutpastors and other leaders
equipping the saints based ontheir gifting, Because that's
where we're kind of orientingright now.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
Well, I want to look at this idea of what kind of
mindset you have when you're aleader, because I spoke with
teachers especially quite a bitabout this post-COVID and
leaders are on the forefront.
So anytime there's a change ora crisis, you're in there
thinking first what needs to bedone and teachers felt that then
(29:08):
during COVID too.
But what happens in our brainand this is a gift that God
built into our brain I'mthinking first what needs to be
done, and teachers felt that.
Then during COVID too.
But what happens to in ourbrain and this is a gift that
God built into our brain we gointo what I call superhero
syndrome and the brain changesenough to be able to pull up
into your memory all the othertimes when you've been through
(29:28):
something difficult and who arethe people that have helped you
and what are the emotions thatwere helpful in those situations
.
It all comes forward Now.
The benefit of that is that itgives you confidence to just do
what you need to do.
The disadvantage of it?
Because any gift God gives us,we find a way to turn into a sin
, don't we?
The disadvantage is we staystuck in that mode and we think,
(29:53):
yeah, I got this, this is aboutme, or this can't be done
unless I do it.
But in reality, when we look atour vocations, whether it's me
thinking about caring for othersor you thinking about your
primary vocation as a pastor,we're not doing it.
The solution comes from God.
(30:14):
We just do the work he setsbefore us, and he can choose to
set that work in front ofsomeone in your congregation
just as much as he sets it infront of you.
And so if God can make thathappen through you, god can make
it happen through someone inyour congregation too, and that
person just needs your supportmost of the time.
(30:34):
To know that the pastor said Ican move into this area and
here's the training the churchis providing for me.
I really think we need to thinkabout that more.
I mean because we just we can'tbe a one man show or a two man
show in our congregations.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Well, if there was ever anyone who had the right to
do the superhero thing, it wasJesus.
And Jesus didn't even do thesuperhero thing.
I mean, obviously, he was asuperhero that perfectly
fulfilled the law, died ourdeath on the cross, bodily rose
again.
But in the midst of Jesus'ministry, he invites 12, and
(31:14):
there's more than 12.
There are women, and thenthere's the 70.
There's plenty of others towalk with him and see how he did
it, watch his rhythms of rest,to work, to experience Jesus
sending out the 12, sending outthe 70, jesus even giving the
disciples.
I'm thinking of two differentstories.
(31:34):
You go, heal him.
Well, we can't heal him inJesus.
Oh, you have little faith.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
Or feeding the five you give them something to eat,
like.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Jesus actually invited people into ministry
life with him, and I thinkoftentimes we that we'd separate
the humanity of Jesus from thedivinity of Jesus, and I guess
that's helpful.
But the divine man is is givingus a model and example for how
to do life dependent upon thewill of father, and then arms
(32:03):
open wide to experience thehighs and the lows, the joys and
the sorrows of intimate lifewith others, all for the sake of
multiplying them after hisascension by the Spirit's power
to do the exact same thing.
I have to believe that in theearly church, beyond the
(32:24):
epistles, etc.
They're going back to oh, lookat Jesus.
He gave us permission to dothis, but he also gave us
permission to develop otherpeople based on their gifting to
do it.
That is the Jesus way.
And to land this plane, I thinkfor too long, I think in the
LCMS, I think we've becomeimbalanced, and it's in
unhealthy ways, toward theoffice of holy ministry, and I
(32:47):
don't just say that because Ithink other people should be
preaching or teaching oradministering the sacrament.
It's not even about that, andso that could be our primary
focus and then all of the otherthings that the body of Christ
needs to be healthy and to bemobilized for mission would be
lived out.
Anything more to say about theself-care of Jesus that led him
to mobilize his disciples formission there?
Speaker 1 (33:08):
Kim of Jesus that led him to mobilize his disciples
for mission there.
Kim Well, one of my favoritequestions that you sent to me
was about Jesus and his rhythmof self-care.
It's my favorite questionbecause it made me go.
Oh, I've never thought of thatbefore, but you know, I'm
thinking in particular of threestories, and this one, the first
one goes along with what yousaid about equipping people, and
(33:29):
this one the first one goesalong with what you said about
equipping people.
But I'm remembering the storyof Jesus on the beach fixing
breakfast for the disciples, andthat's one of their last times
to have seen Jesus.
So you might think that Jesusis thinking okay, I'm going to
be ascending into heaven and sothis is my last chance to give a
little bit more training.
No, you know, he's not doinganother lecture, he's fixing
(33:57):
them breakfast and he took themaway from their work of fishing.
And to me and you can tell me ifthis is heresy, because I don't
have your background inscripture, but to me the message
is if you're going to do thework you got to eat is if you're
going to do the work, you gotto eat and you need to eat
healthy, you need to do thosekinds of things.
And I think he's telling themtoo as you go out into these
communities, I'm going to havepeople there who are going to
(34:20):
take care of you.
Don't feel guilty about sittingdown to a big meal, because
they're caring for you, aren'tthey?
And then I, you know, I Can wepause on that, kim?
I want your two more stories.
Because they're caring for you,aren't they?
And then I, you know, I alsothink.
Can we pause on that, kim?
Speaker 2 (34:31):
I want your two more stories.
I love this this is sofascinating.
That is the story of Jesus'restoration of Peter after
Peter's denied him three times.
You know, it's the Lord, it'sthe Lord.
They jump in, jesus is waitingfor them and it says they didn't
say anything, they knew it wasthe Lord.
(34:53):
There was like this kind of Ithink Jesus is just kind of
smiling.
They're like is it you?
Speaker 1 (34:59):
Yeah, it's you, you know, but he didn't have to
Before it's even stopped.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
Yeah, yeah, he didn't have to say much of anything
and he was just taking care oftheir first article needs God as
creator, providing sustenancefrom his creation.
That has to be that breakfast.
I would love to be just one whogets to look.
I want to talk to Peter.
What was that whole experiencelike, hanging out with a risen
(35:24):
Jesus?
And then final thing is itrelates to mobilizing for
mission.
Right, jesus says feed my sheep, feed my sheep, do you love me?
Do you love me?
Peter says you know I love.
He doesn't just say yeah, Ilove you, you love me.
No, no, no.
He gives them this higher call,this higher vision that would
be ratified at Pentecost as theHoly Spirit descended.
So, so good, love that story,so much it's.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
Well, I'm thinking about Jesus giving himself
respite care, because respitecare is a big thing we talk
about in caregiving and it's sodiscouraging to me how hard it
can be to get caregivers toaccept someone else coming in
and taking care of their lovedones so they can have that rest,
(36:05):
they can have that respite.
So how does Jesus do respitecare?
Well, he's a caregiver foreverybody, so his only way of
doing that is to go off alone topray, to pull himself away from
all those needs.
If you can imagine Jesuswalking on the earth and every
person he looks at, he knows theneed, the deep need of that
(36:27):
person.
He has to get away and that'sso very important that we get
away.
Just like it's important foryou to get away in a sabbatical,
it's important for us to getaway from that work, to have
rest and to refocus our minds onJesus so that when we come back
into that work, we're doing itfor Jesus and not for anything
(36:50):
else.
So I think that's a good onetoo.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
I love that.
And they end up.
They keep pursuing him like the.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
Christians.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
There's so many times in the gospels where, where did
you go, jesus?
Where'd you go?
And she's like you can kind ofsit.
I went to spend time with thefather.
I'd invite you to go do thesame.
And then I think of his lasttime of prayer, the night he was
betrayed.
You know he just wants to spendtime with the father and he
also wants to spend time inprayer with his followers.
(37:21):
Could you not watch and pray?
You know you're willing, butthe flesh is weak, right, and he
recognizes their humanity andultimately surrenders himself to
the will of the father and tothe presence of the father, who
would be with him through deathto life.
But I love that he had to wantto get away.
Jesus constantly was gettingaway.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
So, kim, last story, that really helps us as we think
of self-care.
And this Bible story is myfavorite as a former
kindergarten teacher that Jesusnapping in the boat when the
storm comes in.
But if we look at it from theviewpoint of a caregiver, jesus
gets into the boat.
He's exhausted, but he knowswhat's coming.
(38:04):
And if he's thinking, well,they can't get along without me,
he would say to himself I'm notgoing to sleep, I better stay
awake.
So when the disciples areafraid, I can comfort them.
Yada, yada, yada.
But he doesn't.
He says I'm going to sleep, myfather is in charge, I'm going
to sleep.
And when the disciples wake himup, they're in a state of
terror.
See what they, what they wereable to experience, to go from
(38:27):
terror to complete faith andtrust that Jesus could stop that
storm.
But Jesus didn't push off sleep, he knew that that rest was
important too.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
I love that, don't you care?
We're embarrassing.
They say that to Jesus, don'tyou care?
Or I think of Mary and Martha,don't you care?
Speaker 1 (38:56):
It's like where is you heard my brother was sick
and you didn't come.
Yeah, didn't come.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
Right, don't you care ?
Yeah, he obviously cares and hewants us to care for us as he,
as Jesus in his flesh cared for,cared for himself to set those
rhythms of rest.
Self-care is not, is notselfish.
Um, talk about this an awfullot.
Let's go into how you startyour day on the morning, own the
(39:22):
day.
I think a lot of us just get upinto our days, especially if
you're like me and your days aregoing to be really full.
I don't think we go to bedearly enough, nor do I think
we're waking up early enough toset our day right, and for me it
looks like I'm not going to gothrough the whole thing because
it's kind of quite comprehensive.
I'm slightly neurotic in termsof my mornings, kim, but I'm
(39:44):
very, very disciplined in termsof water and stretching and some
of my supplements that I taketo kind of start the day, and I
do intermittent fasting, so Idon't eat, especially when I'm
working between.
I only eat between noon and six.
So the digestion system brainbeing your brain, the second
(40:05):
brain is obviously your gut, andso just making sure
everything's kind of workingwell as we start our morning.
So anything more to say abouthow we set good rhythms, habits,
to shape our mornings, kim.
Speaker 1 (40:16):
I think the key word there is rhythms to do that,
because I'm a dedicated nightowl, like my father was.
My father taught at Concordiain Nebraska and he agreed to be
head of the math and sciencedepartment because he could set
his own schedule and not have tocome in until chapel time.
So that's how dedicated we areto being a night owl.
(40:38):
But I married a dedicatedmorning larch and so that's part
of our transition right now isthat it used to be he was up
really early and then he wouldleave for work and I could have
my slow beginning, and now Ifind myself changing and getting
up earlier.
I'm hopefully not out of guilt,but I also have to have certain
(40:59):
things that I do before I askmyself to do a thinking thing do
before I ask myself to do athinking thing because I am out
of a rhythm for where my bodywants to be.
And so I go through thosethings yes, my exercises, the
water drinking that I need to do, taking my vitamins, fixing my
caffeine for the day, but then Ilike before I start any work.
(41:23):
But then I like before I startany work, my first thing needs
to be my Bible reading and myprayer time, it just centers me
for the day, and my favorite isthe Today's Light Bible.
I've done a lot of differentBible reading programs, but this
is one from CPH from a longtime ago and I'm on my fifth
(41:44):
time through.
It's a three year journeythrough the Bible, but each
section that you read startswith that opening thought and
ends with a short devotion, andI just love that.
Speaker 2 (41:56):
That's so good.
There's a lot of research rightnow, kim I don't know if you
know this around Bible readingand wellness, that I think if
it's four or more times a week,you're in the word.
Your mental health isexponentially increased.
So why would we be surprised Imean, we shouldn't be surprised
(42:18):
that when the word of God worksin us it changes absolutely
everything heart, body, mind,spirit.
We're more alive.
We get to our prefrontal cortexthrough our dysfunctional
emotions.
Why?
Because we realize I love yourfaith and fellowship.
We realize we're held by theGod of the universe who will
never leave us nor forsake us.
So, no matter what thechallenges come in this day, I
(42:38):
trust his promises.
Like I want to orient the startof my day, obviously throughout
the day, but when I start theday orienting on God's promises,
man, it's so, so much better.
Any more observations aroundbeing in the word and its
benefits, Kim?
Speaker 1 (42:53):
Well, it's interesting that you mentioned
research on that, because thereis really a whole branch of
psychology that studies peopleof faith.
It's huge, and even doing mydissertation at a public
university, nobody blinked aneye when I brought that aspect
into my dissertation too.
(43:14):
It's very strong.
It comes up again and again andagain, and I think what we were
talking about before, about theidea of joy and how joy opens
up your mind I think that's oneof the key things.
I can read scripture, and Imight be reading a really down
and dirty story from the OldTestament, but I know the end of
(43:36):
the story and so it alwaysbrings me to joy.
So why wouldn't that make youhealthier?
It's going to make you think ofhealthier things to do.
It's going to make you feelbetter.
It's going to counteractdepressive thoughts.
All of those things cometogether like that and it's just
, it's a joy for me to readabout that and say, huh, I like
(44:00):
that.
The secular world hasdiscovered something God put in
place a long time ago.
Yeah, amen, yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:07):
Amen, amen.
Well, this is.
We're just about at time.
This time has flown by so fast.
This has been one of my mostfun podcasts, and not that every
podcast isn't fun, but this Idon't know.
I've just been juiced gettingto talk to you, kim.
You're a gift to the body ofChrist.
Final word for those who may bein your season I got a number
(44:28):
of friends right now who arecaring for my pastor friend is
caring for his father-in-law ashe moves into hospice care right
now.
So praying for the Sutherlandfamily.
What word of care and hopeperseverance, would you offer to
those that are caring for agingparents or in-laws, Kim?
Speaker 1 (44:50):
You know, for me it would be what I try to do every
day, which is to reorient mybrain Instead of thinking I'm
becoming this person's superheroand I need to do everything.
I need to rewrite that andremember that the big things are
being taken care of by God andI need to do the little things
(45:12):
in front of me.
And just a quick story.
I was trying to get a loved oneonto Medicaid and it was a
five-month process, which wasone frustrating thing after the
other, and then I finally had acase worker call me and say
we're starting all over again,and I said I cannot even.
I can't even, I'm going to haveto call you next week.
(45:34):
By Monday, I had five letters inthe mail telling me that
someone at the Department ofHealth and Human Services had
enrolled this person in Medicaid.
So, in spite of all of myfrustration and my feeling like
this is to me, god already tookcare of it.
And the second thing I wouldsay is look for those people.
(45:56):
Look for those people who canhelp you, especially if you are
a church worker and you're, youknow, a teacher used to being on
their own in the classroom, apastor oh my goodness, this is
all on me.
Look for people who can helpyou.
The people in your communitywant to help you so good.
Speaker 2 (46:15):
Well, this has been awesome, Kim.
Listener, pick up Weary Joy.
It's an excellent, excellentread.
Thank you for that work.
And if people want to followyou and your upcoming work, Kim,
how can they do so?
Speaker 1 (46:27):
Well, my website is kimmarkselsonnet, so that's the
easiest way to get a hold of me.
Speaker 2 (46:34):
Yeah, so good, so good.
This is the Tim Allman Podcast.
Sharon is caring.
Please go to YouTube if youhaven't subscribed there.
That really really helps getthe algorithm up so that more
people find these hope-filled,joy-filled podcasts like this.
Kim, you're a gift to me, ourfamilies, we go back a ways, so
thanks for staying connected andlooking forward to the next
time.
(46:54):
There's so many other thingswe're going to have to have you
back on.
There's so many other thingsregarding positive psychology
that we could have gone into,but that will be for another day
.
Another time and I'm sograteful for you.
Please, please, share this withsomeone who needs hope and joy.
It is the fuel for arelationship with the God of the
universe and relationship withothers created in his image.
(47:15):
It's a good day.
Go and make it a great day.
Thanks so much, kim.
Speaker 1 (47:17):
Thank you.
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