July 12, 2023 • 50 mins
What if we could bridge the generational gap within the American Christian Church with the simple act of humility? In our thought-provoking conversation with Reverend Dr. Chad Lakies, we navigate the path to a more cohesive Christian community. As we echo Jesus' humility, we learn the importance of intergenerational connection and the transformative effect it can have on our churches. Our discussion with Reverend Lekees unravels the significance of listening and learning from each other, while shedding light on how pride can act as a barrier to our younger generation.
Reverend Dr. Chad Lakies shares an inspirational journey, transitioning from an atheist band drummer to a church leader. His story illuminates the power of genuine Christian hospitality and emphasizes on the vital need to create welcoming spaces within our churches. This open environment allows room for those wrestling with questions and doubts to freely express their thoughts. Listen in as we explore the ways our churches can become a safe haven for people from all walks of life.
Our enriching talk with Reverend Dr. Lakies also reveals how the gospel can reshape our perception of work, turning obligations into gifts. We investigate the potential pitfalls of treating evangelism as a marketing project, and instead, focus on introducing people to Jesus. We touch upon the role of ecclesiology, law and gospel, and spiritual disciplines in creating true disciples of Jesus. Furthermore, we delve into the doctrine of vocation, its significance in Christian life and the influence it carries over parenting. Chad reinforces the power of intentional action in positively impacting young lives. So, tune in, let's discover the importance of authenticity, humility, and small acts of service in creating disciples and bridging generational gaps.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hello and welcome to the brand new American
Reformation Podcast.
We long to see the widerAmerican Christian Church fall
more in love with Jesus bylearning from the practices of
the early church and other erasof discipleship multiplication.
We want to hear from you, makesure you comment and leave a
review, wherever you're watchingor listening, to tell us what
God is doing in your life or howyou feel about today's
(00:25):
conversation.
Lord, have your way in us, justdive in.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Welcome to the American Reformation Podcast,
tim Allman, here today with mybrother from another mother.
His name is Chad Lekees,reverend Dr Chad Lekees.
We met Chad and I met at aleadership gathering hosted by
Concordia Publishing House, cphand Lutheran Church Extension
(00:58):
Fund.
We realized which happens quitea bit in the Lutheran Church of
Missouri that we had a lot ofoverlapping streams and
relationships.
So a little bit about Chadbefore we get into our
conversation today.
He was a part of a.
If you're in the St Louiscommunity, you've heard of Crave
.
While he was a student in avicar in St Louis he was a part
(01:18):
of Crave, then got his PhD andwent and served at Concordia
University in Portland rightbefore their closure a number of
years ago.
And now he has landed atConcordia.
No, lutheran Hour Ministries.
There's so many Concordias andLutherans going on Lutheran Hour
Ministries And we're going tohear a little bit about his work
(01:39):
.
But before we do that, chad,welcome to the American
Reformation Podcast.
Standard question What are youpraying, brother, for
Reformation, just at the broadlevel in the American Christian
Church today?
Welcome, brother.
Thanks for your time.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
Tim, thanks for having me Real quickly for your
listeners.
I've just come to realize howgood of a listener you actually
are And so, yeah, that'd be oneprayer that more of us are
surrounded by people who arewilling to listen.
Other prayers are that thegenerational difference that
(02:15):
seems to exist in the churchbetween sort of the old guard
people who've been kind ofLutheran their whole life,
brought up this way, sort ofknown it one way forever, would
more and more interact with thespirit of listening, humility,
with those who are younger.
I used to not be a Lutheran oreven a Christian, but there are
(02:37):
many more who are trying to come, even after you and I, to
figure out what does it mean tobe a Christian in our time?
And there seems to be some kindof discontinuity between what
they're experiencing and feelingand wrestling with and the ways
that kind of have been for theolder Christians, tried and true
(03:02):
And well, why would we thinkabout it any other way?
Do it any other way?
But those are still, i think,good and curious questions where
both groups can kind of presson and mold one another.
But I'm not sure that whereverwe finally end up, it's going to
land in the sense of one sidesaying hey see, i was right all
(03:28):
along, but maybe God is up tosomething new, and I'm just
praying that the opportunitiesto listen and learn from one
another, especiallygenerationally, would be
fostered.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Yes, yes, right before we went on.
I'm talking about reading thenew large catechism put out by
CPH and with contemporaryapplications, annotations, all
of that and many wonderfulcontributions there.
But Luther's preface to thelarge catechism and his real
call, he gets pretty harsh.
You can see me with a lot ofpastors who are no longer
(04:06):
learning staying in the word,staying in catechesis, and I
think, if I could just boil itdown, he's calling for he is
calling for humility.
Readers are leaders And I praythat more of our leaders would
have that sense of humility.
Humilitas is a book, and I justremembered the name of the
author.
John Dixon came out with a bookcalled Humilitas and he looked
(04:29):
at the origin, chad, of humility.
Did you ever read that book, isit?
Speaker 3 (04:36):
really a dollar?
No, I'm not even familiar withit.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
So he did a study out of a university in Australia, a
secular study, on the originsof humility, because he was
looking at emperors and kingsthat had gone before, and a lot
of times in the historicalannals they would even
exaggerate their accomplishments, right, but somehow over the
last 2000 years this sort ofboasting in culture in general
(05:03):
is looked down upon.
And so he was like look andwhen did this shift occur?
Where humility, especiallyamong those who were in
positions of power, is elevated,it is a strong character trait
And newsflash.
It all oriented around theperson and work of Jesus Christ,
god in the flesh, who humbledhimself Philippians, chapter 2,
(05:25):
even to the point of death and across, and out of that God
elevated him, the Fatherelevated him.
So the more we know about onerespective discipline maybe it's
exegesis or history or sciencein general the more we know.
and then you've got a number ofdifferent streams and all of
those kind of disciplines right.
The more we know about onerespective stream, the more it
(05:48):
should humble us and how littlewe know about the other
respective streams.
To go deeper on that, do youthink that's one of the areas
where, because you spent a lotof time contemplating how to
disciple the next generation andmaybe young adults, who may be
skeptical.
Is it that pride of this is theway You must do it like this.
(06:11):
I'm speaking in very generalterms here, but do you think
that's one of the things thatsounds and smells gross to the
younger generation?
Go deeper in terms of humilityand intergenerational connection
.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
You know, i don't know if it necessarily smells
gross.
I think there are a lot ofyoung people out there who
realize people who've livedlonger than them, been doing it
longer than them, have wisdom tooffer, but they, i think, don't
feel as if they are treatedwith a similar kind of respect.
right, maybe they've learnedsomething that they could teach
(06:47):
the old dogs, right, but in asense all of us are still able
to learn new tricks.
You know Luther, his character.
he seems to fail this way allthe time, and it could be
something like a deathbedconfession.
but I think it's moreconsistent throughout his
theology, i mean, even in someof his earlier works, like the
(07:07):
Heidelberg Disputation, there'sa lot of sense of humility about
what we can know there, andLuther was pushing back
significantly on a certain kindof speculative theology.
But at the end of his life hesays you know all of my books,
they're straw right.
I mean the only one that hewanted to keep, where he thought
he did something really goodand made a significant
(07:28):
contribution was, you know, onthe bondage of the will.
And if only all of us couldhave an attitude like that.
But we don't have to go backfor such old models.
I mean Luther is a kind ofparagon model for us in the
Reformation tradition.
But I really liked David Brooks,the New York Times columnist,
(07:50):
his book A Road to Character.
He was actually writing it inthe midst of a period of time
where he was on the road toconverting to Christianity from
kind of a secular Judaism, andhe tells that story in a second
book called The Second Mountain.
But essentially he just tellsstory after story after story in
that book, the Road toCharacter, about how, you know,
(08:11):
after the 1950s it really seemedlike we were coming out of a
societal moment when there was alot of self-effacement.
Like you know, we're not sogreat.
you know, post-world War IIthere's victory and there's a
certain sense of well, you know,we just need to be thankful for
this moment and embrace it,because at the same time there's
victory, of course there's therecognition of so much loss and
(08:34):
destruction and horrible thingscommitted by humans.
But then he goes on to tell thestory of a number of people who
struggled through how to dealwith their own limitations and
weaknesses and find a way to besuccessful.
And many of those people wereconnected to God in some way,
had some sort of religiousbackground and I think they
(08:55):
served in a sense as a witnessto him.
right, he just studied theirlives And in addition to that
and a number of other influences, he came around to be a
follower of Jesus himself.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
That's powerful.
Who is the author of The Roadto Character?
What's his name?
again?
Speaker 3 (09:10):
Yeah, David Brooks is his name.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
David Brooks.
Check that out, bro, That'sawesome.
So tell, what I was fascinatedabout is your conversion story
coming to faith later in lifeand how that shaped your
ministry brother, Can you sharethat story?
Speaker 3 (09:24):
Yeah, i'll try to be brief.
I converted to Christianity,became a follower of Jesus in
the middle of my freshman yearof college.
Prior to that I had grown up ina nominally Christian home And
by that really it was Christianand name only.
We were Roman Catholic.
I was catechized all the waythrough, from about first or
(09:46):
second grade on through througheighth grade.
Pretty similar experience, ithink.
From what I understand, you knowconfirmation programs to be for
people in the Reformationtradition, but I walked away
from that kind of not reallyknowing the significance of
Jesus, not sure if that was theteacher's fault or if it's mine,
you know, just not payingattention to all that well, but
(10:13):
I encountered kind of the end ofthat period where in a sense
it's this moment in the eighthgrade where you kind of put on
the cloak of faith and own itfor yourself.
They kind of treat you like anadult and you know this is your
confession now And in a senseyou're kind of kicked out of
this formative environment tosort of keep it for yourself in
(10:36):
a sense, and because there'snothing going on in my home life
, there's nothing really to makeit sticky, important in ways
that are bigger and beyond.
You know just the sort of well,this is a good idea to be part
of the church.
I wanted the first ticket thatI could find out of some of
(10:56):
those obligations, like going tochurch randomly whenever my
parents would decide to do so,which was not more than you know
, maybe very few times per year.
But I didn't want to do it andI didn't know why we were doing
it, and so I didn't really feellike I was leaving anything
behind because there wasn't thatrootedness.
So all through high school Iwas an atheist.
(11:21):
I encountered the biologicaltheory of evolution and freshman
biology class And I thoughtthat made a lot of sense of
things, and it really does.
I think we should recognizehave very strong explanatory
power that we've got to wrestlewith as Christians in the modern
age.
But a parallel story to all ofthis is since I was a little kid
(11:41):
I've been playing drums, and mydad had a kiddie drum set that
I, as soon as I was able to sitin a chair, i was sitting down.
I remember the beat that Iwould make up even till this day
.
And then I got into organizedmusic in my school district and
played in everything, like allof the ensembles.
The marching band even had somegarage bands and basement bands
(12:02):
when I was in high school Andevery kind of music you could
think of, all the venues rightfrom the crappiest dive bar
where I thought me and my drumswe're going to fall through this
rickety stage to like NFLfootball stadiums for marching
band, state competitions Andseriously everything in between.
And then I was playing, finally, at the end of high school in a
(12:25):
Blues Brothers cover band,taking songs from that classic
movie And we had a bit of achoreographed act.
And it's because the artsprogram at our school was so
good that all of us were able tokind of put this together, as
about 10 guys Played some shows,won a contest, played a bunch
of graduation open houses Andthen, of course, we had to all
(12:45):
go our separate ways for college.
But while we were rehearsing itwas in the garage of one of the
lead singers.
His mom was a Lutheran churchpraise team leader.
She's heard me and thought Icould hack it well enough and
offered you know that I wouldcome play drums at their church.
And I said, well, wait a minute.
You know I'm an atheist, right?
And she said, yeah, we know.
(13:05):
And so I thought of it and I'mokay, i'll do it if it's a gig,
you know I'll take it if you payme.
So they said okay And so Istarted showing up roughly the
middle of that summer, rightafter high school graduation,
playing drums in church.
What I experienced in thatperiod of about six months was
(13:28):
two things.
I went in with a lot oftrepidation.
I was worried are you going totry to shove Jesus down my
throat?
Are you going to beat me overthe head of the Bible and tell
me I'm an immoral person becauseI'm an atheist And there's this
presupposition that atheistshave no morality?
They didn't do any of thosethings.
In fact, i was welcomed withopen arms and welcomed into an
(13:49):
environment of a bunch of moremature musicians than me.
They'd been playing togetherfor a while.
They'd done lots of differentthings.
I learned how to play livemusic without a conductor with
them, you know, through a lot oflistening.
Again, it's a super importantthing for musicians.
And then I really kind of wantedGod to make himself tangible.
(14:10):
You know, if I'm going tobelieve this stuff that you're
talking about, yeah, i have alot of objections, but I want
God to, you know, make it liketangibly real to me.
Hello, chad, you know, repentand believe the gospel.
I need to hear that audibly orit's written up on the wall
somewhere.
You know something like that.
And neither of those thingshappened.
But what did happen was playingdrums there.
(14:31):
I felt like I played better andI had more fun than all these
other venues and previous kindsof musical style or ensemble
I've been in.
I couldn't really explain that.
So that genuine Christianhospitality that I experienced
and you know the sense ofplaying drums in that
environment.
You know, maybe the scout isreal, maybe he created me to
(14:53):
have this ability and maybe whenI use it for him it goes better
.
I didn't know.
I still really don't know theanswer to that question, but it
was enough to become a tippingpoint.
So in the middle of my freshmanyear I went to bed one night
and I said God, i still don'tknow if you're real, but I'll
give you a chance.
And that changed everythingabout my life.
I went from being somebody whodidn't really like school to.
(15:16):
You know, i suddenly wasdevouring books, trying to
answer the questions that I hadto deal with the conversion
experience.
I started to like to write alittle bit.
I fairly quickly felt the callto go to seminary and people at
that congregation, you know,poured into me and said we see
that aptitude in you too.
And so off I went And, um, goddoes what God does.
(15:44):
You know, there's a number oftangential bits to that story,
but yeah, that's the basic bit.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
That's so amazing.
I mean, just I want to be, youknow, i have to share the church
, but like we need more.
Unless you want to, we needmore churches like that man that
just open-handedly love andmeet young people, old people
too, people that have questions,doubts, to just show Christian
hospitality to them.
(16:11):
And I'm sure you can go off ona number of different stories,
like if this is the heavinessaround I mean it's all the lords
and so there's a lightness toit but like the work of inviting
the stranger, the sojourner,those that are just trying to
figure life out, and this is forall of God's people, because I
(16:31):
bet if there was one person inthat story Chad could have been
a church leader, elder pastor,whatever that'd come up and said
and given you like theslightest hint early on that you
were not welcome, you wouldhave bounced.
Speaker 3 (16:44):
Is that true?
You know it might have been.
A little more pressure wasrequired in that moment because
I had made a commitment to them.
Right, this was a gig they'repaying me.
I knew how to be professional,right, this wasn't my first
rodeo in that regard.
I'd already done a little bitof gigging prior, and my parents
(17:05):
raised me with a certain kindof ethic.
You know that I might havetalked to the leaders about, you
know.
Well, hey, this person saidblah, blah, blah to me.
You know what do I make of that, but I probably want to bail
unless there is a lot ofpressure.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Yeah, sure, but nonetheless, you didn't receive
any of that.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
I mean, it was just open, no, no, and it gets to
your point, i think, in terms ofthe character of this church,
they took a risk right bybringing someone in who didn't
share any of their confessionalcommitments and then put them
into a leadership positioneffectively.
Right, i'm up there leadingmusic, right, and I could have
probably misbehaved a lot, saida number of things like I don't
(17:46):
believe this, this is silly, youall are stupid.
I probably could have done anumber of really damaging things
and they probably would havebooted me to the curb real fast,
But they welcomed me.
A number of people were prayingfor me.
It was the spirit was just atwork to get me in.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
That's so shaped, then the really the rest of your
life up to this point, chad,because would tell our listeners
about your PhD and why you gotthe PhD and in the discipline
you received it and then andthen move into your Concordia
Portland kind of experience, ifyou would.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
Yeah.
So I knew as I was goingthrough the pastoral formation
program that I wasn't reallysure that serving a congregation
in the traditional sense wasthe right fit for me, and so I
started looking at grad schooland applied for PhDs at a
variety of places and wasrejected.
(18:44):
At two of the places that Iapplied to They wanted me to
know exactly what topic I wantedto work on so they could slot
me with an advisor and so on.
So it wasn't because I didn'thave the merit, my grades were
good enough and so on, but Ijust didn't sort of fit their
mold of how they wanted torecruit new students.
So I stayed in the ConcordiaSeminary in St Louis, welcomed
(19:07):
me to keep studying and slowly,over a lot of conversations, i
worked out my thesis topic withmy Dr, fr Joel Okamoto.
He knew me from the very firstyear that I was there as a
student and, for whatever reason, i was very attracted to how he
thinks And he knew the sideministry that I was doing at
(19:32):
Crave and really planting a newchurch and trying to figure out
how to get that off the ground,do it faithfully but in a bit of
a different style than wastypical in our church body.
And so, as I got going, one ofthe things that I figured out
was I want to understand how itis that the church sort of gets
(19:54):
off track of where God wants itto go and becomes unwittingly
captive to American culture.
And so I really did a lot ofwork on figuring out what does
it mean for the church to be acommunity formed as a community,
a place that is full of habits,habits and rituals and so on
that aim us to be a particularkind of people.
(20:16):
That's what the liturgy doesand is supposed to do.
But that connection tocommunity one of the big
weaknesses is, for us AmericanChristians is just an hour on
Sunday and that's not aformative enough of an
environment.
And so, as we live in anotherenvironment, deeply immersed, we
carry in a lot of practices andhabits out of that environment.
(20:38):
We start to apply them to lifein the church and then,
unwittingly, we are captive tothe ways of American culture and
are forming better Americansthan we are Christians.
And so I really highlightedthree different ways we do that.
I talked about preaching asbeing captive to the therapeutic
right, the triumph of thetherapeutic.
(20:59):
It's a book that was reallywritten very prophetically in
the 1960s by a guy named PhilipReif, a Jewish sociologist of
culture out of the University ofPennsylvania, and essentially
our preaching is captured tothat, in the sense that our
preaching is most oftenfunctioning as trying to make
people feel better and helpingthem cope with the challenges of
(21:20):
life.
And it even comes across whenwe say very gospel oriented
things like you know, it's allokay, jesus died for your sins.
Well, actually it's not okay.
Right, because in a horizontalrelationship between us and God,
right, we're clean, we're wetas shed, you know, we're made
white as snow on the, on thesorry, that was vertical.
Yeah, on the horizontal, youknow us to people.
(21:42):
There's still consequences formy actions, right.
So, yeah, i could forgive youfor that divorce or for lying
against me or for you know gosh,countless things in a Christian
way.
but there's still consequences,right, there's a cost, and so I
think our preaching needs todeal with that more
significantly, and I think inmany ways, lutherans are very
(22:05):
good at that.
Two others very quickly, ithink.
When we talk about the doctrineof vocation, it's often really
narrow and captive to theculture of total work, right.
So it's a kind of work hard.
Give it your all, because Jesusgave his all for you.
Which flip flops.
(22:27):
The gospel turns it into a law,right?
The good news is Jesus gave usall for you, so go do what he
did.
Well, none of us are capable ofthat.
It's just a gift to be received, and so I think our sense of
vocation is very narrow, andLuther meant it much more
broadly and huge.
And then, last, when we try toreach out and get people into
our church, be attractive,relevant, you know, it turns
(22:49):
evangelism into kind of amarketing project.
It's not really introducingpeople to Jesus as much as it's
trying to get them into ourplace right, maybe to do things
like pay the bills, keep thelights on right, be the big,
successful looking churchcompared to all the other people
in town, and it's just motivesget a little messed up.
So that's what I worked on Andwhat were your conclusions?
Speaker 2 (23:14):
I mean, that was general hypotheses, that kind of
went in And then, yeah, whatobservations did you make?
You kind of hinted at it withLutherans and our law, gospel
preaching like we are not theconsumerist preachers, we will
make the comfortableuncomfortable, and vice versa.
So, by law and gospel, whatother observations, though,
(23:35):
especially around vocation, didyou kind of discover?
And because I'm geeking outright now on a number of
different, i think we need morepeople doing sociological
coupled with theological studiesright now.
So just go a little bit deeper.
Chad, it's fascinating.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
Yeah, so all of them kind of circled around this
pre-work that I did onecclesiology.
What does it mean to be a churchcommunity that has practices
that are supposed to lead tohabits, which are supposed to
lead to a certain way of beingright?
If you think in Aristotelianterms, it's kind of carrying out
the virtues, but really we cantalk about it in a Lutheran
(24:14):
sense of forming real disciplesof Jesus, authentic followers of
Jesus.
Right, there's a certaincharacter that goes with that.
You can call it virtue, buttraditionally we just use the
biblical language of someone wholives more and more like Jesus.
That's what our practices aremeant to do, and so I was really
, every time I dealt with one ofthose issues, bringing it back
(24:37):
around to what does an authentic, orthodox, genuine biblical
practice looks like?
look like that brings us backto being a follower of Jesus,
where we reflect his ways beforethe watching world.
And so, yeah, i totally agreewith you thinking about how to
marry theological andsociological talk, where
(25:00):
theology is always the primaryvoice, but understanding what we
can from many of these otherdisciplines that teach us about
the way communities function,for example.
It's really helpful for thechurch and imminently practical.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
Imminently practical.
So I'm fascinated with thepower of habit and how that
shapes the Christian.
Jesus was obviously I like toframe it like this that it's not
what would Jesus do.
Jesus is perfect.
Jesus, holy God, holy man, 100%healthy, could differentiate
(25:39):
and stay connected.
There's some systems work there.
He's the super human man.
So it's not what would Jesus do, but it's what did Jesus do on
his way to fulfilling hismission.
What were the practices ofJesus?
So could you nail in on some ofthose Christian formation
practices that you think theeveryday baptized follower of
(26:01):
Jesus would do well to emulate?
Speaker 3 (26:03):
Sure, there are even things that I'm not good at or
not consistent about.
Probably me too.
I'm as weak as any otherChristian right.
But at Lutheran Hour Ministrieswe talk about basic spiritual
disciplines like reading yourBible right, being in the Word,
or reading something that helpsyou get into the Word like a
(26:23):
devotion.
Then we would talk about, ofcourse, being a part of
Christian community, so being inchurch every single Sunday,
because that's where Goddelivers His gifts, that's where
He does His work Right.
We're kind of always passivereceivers of His formative work.
That's where the Spirit is, andwhen we do it together with
(26:45):
others, there's so much morepower than when we're trying to
do it individually.
Prayer is another one rightwhere you find ways to talk to
God, but even more so practicetrying to listen to how He's
moving you through life.
But it's always a posture, ithink, in prayer, where you're
(27:06):
sort of you're humbled.
Right, you're sitting beforethis awesome, awesome God, who
is nevertheless inviting you tobe there to hear you, but at the
same time, while He's listening, he's involved in forming and
shaping you to be the sort ofperson who hears with a
(27:28):
different set of ears, sees theworld and other people in it in
a different way.
Right, you're being molded tobe a little more Christ-like in
all of those sorts of practices.
They're very basic.
There's lots of other ones inthe Christian church.
Silence and solitude, i think,are huge and necessary in our
time because of the way that wecan get so pulled into our
(27:50):
devices and the alternativerealities that they offer to us.
I'm a big reader, reading booksand all the different ways that
other people make argumentsthat change my mind And
effectively I take that to beGod working through them to
reveal something bigger to myimagination about Him and this
(28:14):
creation that He has made right.
So every time my assumptionsare challenged, that's formative
as well.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Amen, amen.
No, that's so good, it reallyis this simplicity.
And then setting the rhythm.
And I'm a morning, i'm amorning guy, and if I don't
start my morning, i'm moving mybody and, through movement of
body, allowing the mind to bemoved more and more after the
(28:44):
heart and mind of Jesus.
Again, we're not pursuingperfection, just progress here,
just meditating on the Word, themiracle morning.
For me, chad is like push-ups,planks, prayer, word, all of
that kind of did to get myselfgoing.
So again, there's so much gracein this conversation.
(29:04):
We're following Jesus, right.
I mean, we've been baptizedinto His name.
He's not ashamed of us, heloves us.
He knows our frailty, he knowshow our desires get misoriented
and how much we just want to bearound Him because His Spirit
lives within us.
He's so, so near to us.
And I think, as we talk aboutthe younger generation, you and
(29:28):
I now we're roughly the same age.
We're firmly in Middle Age,bill, their Chad and I'm owning
it.
It's okay, it's cool.
I got three kids in their teenyears right now.
But talk about, especially inyour work at Concordia Portland,
some of the misconceptions thatmaybe our older Jesus followers
(29:48):
may have of our younger Jesusfollowers today, and how did
your work there at ConcordiaPortland kind of shape your
understanding of that nextgeneration?
Speaker 3 (29:59):
Yeah, i think a big misunderstanding that came out
about a decade or so ago is thesense that millennials and the
early Gen Zers are somethinglike the Me Me Me generation,
that they're all just a bunch ofnarcissists.
And there's so much alternativeresearch to counter that, but
that message kind of got intothe popular mainstream media.
(30:22):
And then there, of course,there's always sort of this,
this interesting tendencyamongst older generations
looking down on youngergenerations and seeing that
they're handling the worlddifferently.
They've got different problemsand challenges than the older
generations have And we've got abad memory as older generations
.
Like you know, if, looking back, we've made it so far in life
(30:47):
And it feels like what we wentthrough wasn't as difficult
before, and so when we seeyounger generations going
through something difficult,we're like what's wrong with
them?
Why do they have so manyproblems?
But you know, in addition tothat feeling and that
sensibility, is this the sensethat they're all about me, the
Me Me Me generation.
They're all a bunch ofindividualistic people, but the
(31:09):
counter research actually saysno.
They are people who are lookingto be a part of something
bigger than themselves.
They want to leave a mark onthe world.
They want to.
They're already thinking at ayoung age about their legacy And
since, how will they beremembered?
They might not articulate itthat way, but when you talk
(31:31):
about leaving a mark on theworld, you know they're thinking
about how will I be remembered.
And so I think for us, aspeople who are working with
young people, we've got such agreat opportunity in terms of
inviting them into the Christianstory, because what better
(31:51):
story to invite them into thanthe one of the grandeur of God
working in the world.
Right, paul says Christ is inthe world, reconciling, right,
that's one way of characterizingLuther.
Talked about you know hisclassic doctrine of vocation,
and it talks about every singlerole that you might have in life
.
Some that are permanent you'reborn a son or a daughter, you're
(32:14):
never not a son or a daughter.
Some that come later and endure, becoming a spouse or a parent.
Some that are temporary, beinga certain kind of employer or
employee or a student or avolunteer, and on and on right,
being a citizen.
All of these things help yousee every aspect of your life as
(32:36):
a role through which God isreaching down from heaven to use
you, as if Luther would saybehind a mask right To work and
care for his neighbor.
So the most mundane, ordinaryand often undesirable and gross
things, the stuff that we don'twant to do, you know, like
(32:57):
changing diapers, you canactually flip that whole story
and say this service to mylittle baby has eternal
significance, right.
And so for moms and dads whoare just deep into that kind of
(33:17):
parental element of life andit's a difficult part of, i mean
, this child is super needy,right.
But that takes us back into youknow the gospel, you know
Matthew 18 and the focus on thechild and that whole series of
passages that are classic to us.
You know what Jesus is doing,and holding up the child is
(33:39):
holding up the needy one, andit's always us, right, we're
always the needy one Andeveryone around us is always the
needy one.
And Luther tells this grandstory of vocation, where God's
reaching down through us toinvolve us in the work of caring
for the needy ones.
And I don't know what betterstory to use to say here's how
(34:01):
you can be a part of somethingbigger than yourself And here's
how you can leave a mark on theworld.
It might not be one that theywrite about in the history books
, but it has eternalsignificance And I think that's
better, and so I would just tryto invite students into that.
And then, because of mybackground, formerly being a
(34:23):
non-believer, i wanted them tosee what it meant to be an
authentic Christian who didn'tknow how to do this walk very
well.
I mean, i've learned a lot oftheology, but I'm still being
formed in how to follow Jesuswell.
And so see someone who wouldmake mistakes, admit the
mistakes, ask for forgiveness.
See someone who is quoteunquote an expert right, i'm the
(34:46):
professor, but I don't have allthe answers to say you know
what I don't know, that's okay.
I think I know how to find thisout.
And walk with me on thisjourney to figure out what you
wanna know, right?
So those sorts of things arejust we've got a world of
opportunity before us if we cansee it through that lens.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
Yes, wow, so much there.
So I would invite you know,maybe older and I'm, you know,
i'm in my 40s, but the 60 yearold follower of Jesus I think
there was, there's always anevery generation bend, that
desire for more and a life ofsignificance and to be connected
(35:28):
to something bigger, which isthe grandeur of God.
I think back, you know, theWorld War II generation and a
number of kids here in theUnited States of America were
like I will go, like every kidand lady for that matter, was
like we are all united aroundthis mission.
how much greater, rather thanone country fighting or
countries fighting othercountries, is the grandeur of
(35:48):
the calling of God in ourvarious vocations, using the
unique gifts that God has givento us.
So I think if we can kind oftap into that, and especially we
got older generations who comedown to say I remember what it
was like, you're gonna be okay,the Lord is good, and let me be
a spiritual we don't use theseterms very well, i would say in
the church but a spiritualfather and mother for you to be
(36:12):
a part of that kind of villagementality, because, man, i need
a lot of other adults speakingwords of life and love into my
teenagers right now to castvision for their life, to let
them know they're not alone.
Obviously Christ in community isgonna be there for them.
So go deeper in terms of thesolid invitation for an older
adult starting to maybe disciplea younger child that may not be
(36:35):
necessarily their child orgrandchild because I think
there's a lot of opportunity forthe church to grow in that
effort.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
Thoughts there, chad?
Yeah, so one thing that we tryto do in my house is we have a
neighbor kid over fairlyregularly and she kind of just
gets to see how we are, becauseI really don't know what her
family background is.
we've not gotten to know herparents very well, but they
trust us at being able to haveher over and she's got a number
(37:05):
of much younger siblings and Ithink they're a handful over
there for mom and dad, and sothe older kids board and mom is
preoccupied with the much moresignificant needs of the young
ones.
So she comes over, plays withmy kids and we make lunch and we
have a lunch prayer and we talkabout things the way that we
(37:27):
normally would, but it's thislike slow drip of exposure to
Jesus and the way of theChristian life.
and the formation, then, thatwe've got to do with our kids is
they're growing up and they'refiguring out how to have this
social relationship with oneanother.
There's often a lot of guidance, of pointing out what's
important about how to get along, and that always comes from our
(37:50):
Christian foundation.
What do you talk about olderkids?
I think you're talking aboutthe fact that you're an
assistant football coach foryour kids football team right?
And what better environment,especially for young men, to be
formed by older, more mature men, wiser men, but men who sort of
(38:11):
have this spirit of wanting topour into young people.
I remember growing up one of mybest friends, his father, had
committed suicide and he reallyhad no fathers and I watched him
a number of times kind of latchonto my dad in a way, and my
dad did what he could to reallypour into him and just be a good
(38:32):
male presence in his life.
but he didn't have enough ofthose And so he made a few not
great choices in his youngeradult, his early adult years
that I think he's still payingsome of the consequences for.
He's found his way better, butit was really a challenge.
When we look out there at ourcongregations or even our
(38:57):
neighborhoods, the schoolclasses where our kids are
spending most of their time, wedon't have to, i think,
manufacture a lot ofopportunities and think, you
know, i've got to do somethingreally unique and special to be
able to pour into the lives ofyoung people.
I had it easy as a professor hada captive audience, you know,
(39:19):
for 15 weeks at a time, a numberof them in fact, and so that
was easy for me.
You know, now I'm trying tofind ways to do it with my
daughters and then some of thekids that she's hanging around
with at church or some of theschool friends that she'll have
over on occasion, you know, butwe're just sort of getting to
(39:39):
that age where they're spendingmore time together outside of
the school day in the classroom.
It's not the greatest answer Idon't feel like I'm giving you,
but it's just a simple, it'sordinary, it's mundane.
Right, it's where we live.
There are ways that you canjust sort of think about this
ahead of time and think this iswho I want to be when we're
(40:00):
together.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
Chad.
I couldn't agree more, man.
It's simple.
just invite a kid the Lordplaces on your heart.
You see the kid that's by himor herself You've maybe got a
connection to the mom or dadconnected to your church and
just ask if you could take himout to a game to coffee.
If it happens to be a friend,just invite him into your world.
(40:23):
We had a young man by the nameof Nico that went on a week-long
vacation with us and a numberof different families And the
connection, the naturalconnection, wasn't weird.
Now I have the rapport that Ihave with Nico could pay
dividends all the way throughour high school years together.
So it is very, very simple.
This is the simple work that Ithink the Lutheran Hour
(40:45):
Ministries is really callingpeople to.
So tell our listeners a littlebit about your work and how
Lutheran Hour is just gettingafter it right now, in very
creative and yet simple ways asit relates to discipleship.
Speaker 3 (40:59):
Yeah, one of my favorite things about Lutheran
Hour is we have kind of alwaysbeen the same organization, So
most people know us.
They're most familiar with theLutheran Hour, the radio program
that's on every single Sundayacross the country and in parts
of Canada.
We're a mass media gospelproclamation organization.
We've been doing that, for thisis gonna be in September the
(41:24):
91st season of the Lutheran Hour, So we've been doing that
before anybody else, any otherChristian group got into media.
And now we do it all over theworld with social media and
videos and bringing peopletogether to show movies and
pretty much anything that youcan think of.
That's media-based radio still,especially television,
(41:46):
satellite TV.
We're just sort of floodingthese areas of the world with
subtle, friendly, winsome gospelpresentations.
And that's one of the thingsthat we're trying to do,
especially in the United States,is really emphasize this idea
of how can we Christians gain ahearing in our time And
(42:11):
especially that's especially, Ithink, critical in a time when
there's so much confrontationand antagonism between peoples,
people, groups, the church andculture, the church and society,
How can Christians be apositive witness to the kingdom
other than being winsome, beingauthentic, being who you say,
(42:32):
that you are living that life ofhumility, asking for
forgiveness when you screw up,serving where you can.
Right Seeing needs, meeting themjust like the Good Samaritan.
Our neighbors are who Godbrings into our life that we
have the capability of serving.
It's no esoteric sort of thing,It's as simple as that And
(42:56):
these are the things we're justtrying to emphasize And we're
trying to talk about howhouseholds are places of
spiritual formation, So that ifyou do it there as I was talking
about just a minute ago with mydaughter and the young lady who
comes over, if we do it here,we might give off a very basic
Christian witness That iswinsomely enough received,
(43:18):
generates enough trust in anumber of Christians that look,
even if we're not somehowresponsible for her joining the
church at some point, we've lefta mark so that maybe, as God
brings her into contact withother Christians over time, they
might water that seed, as itwere, right And eventually she
(43:41):
becomes a part of God's family.
Maybe, her family becomes a partof God's family.
Who knows?
Yeah, right, just beingfaithful.
Speaker 2 (43:48):
That's wonderful.
That is wonderful And I'mgrateful you're a part of
Lutheran hour ministries andexcited to see how your work has
a ripple effect into the future.
So one of our last questionsthis is a podcast of the United
Leadership Collective and we'reunashamedly leaders within
Lutheran Church of MissouriSynod and we're also making some
statements about how we believein written and verbal form.
(44:12):
We could be restored to health,Leaders could be more healthy,
We could have not just quantitybut quality of pastors and other
leaders for the future of thechurch, which is going to look
different than it has, andmostly Christian America, et
cetera.
So any words of hope for say,what is the Lutheran Church of
(44:33):
Missouri Synod?
Not just look but feel like inyour mind.
Say, a decade from now, howwould you hope the character of
the Lutheran Church of MissouriSynod, the culture of the
Lutheran Church of MissouriSynod, would grow and become
more like Christ Chad.
Speaker 3 (44:48):
Yeah, let me try to do that by marrying a number of
threads that we've talked aboutin this podcast.
So I think, if I were to lookahead, the church that I would
like to see is one that has cometo grips with the fact that We
were maybe living in a worldhistorical moment.
right, you and I talked aboutPhyllis Tickles book.
Speaker 1 (45:11):
Is it the great reformation?
Speaker 3 (45:13):
the emerging church or emerging the great emergence,
the great emergence, greatemergence, there we go it's a
her point at the very end ofthat book, and you know it's
just a hypothesis is, every 500years the church has what she
calls a rummage sale, and Youknow.
So you've got birth of Christ,the fall of Rome and, 500, 500
(45:33):
years later, the split betweenEast and West, roughly 500 years
after that, the reformation.
And You know, now we're about500 years out from then.
Right, is something happening.
I don't know, but it sure feelslike things are convulsing
substantially, not just in thechurch But in the society,
especially a Western societywhere we live.
Yes, major changes going on.
Is your hypothesis right?
(45:54):
I have no idea, but maybe, andAnd if we lean into the
possibility that maybe we're onthe verge of something, a move
of God, i think it's gonna comeout of this sense that This,
this amount of fracture,splintering, polarization,
antagonism in our society, issomething that all of us see and
(46:14):
and Survey upon servicing, weremassively dissatisfied with.
We don't like this aboutourselves.
We don't know what to do aboutit.
I think the church can lead theway, because Jesus teaches us a
number of things.
Right.
Every time we run into someonewho believes something different
than us, hold something sacredin their core their convictions.
(46:36):
It's different than us.
Jesus never let those issuesprevent a relationship.
I mean, we always focus on sin,right, he never let our sin
prevent a relationship, butexpand that that way that Paul
characterizes it in Romans 5right, while we were still his
enemies, i have, i think, thatwe we tend automatically to be,
(46:59):
because we're immersed in thisculture, to be captive to the
cultural Imagination of thinkingthat someone who disagrees with
me or has a different set ofconvictions or beliefs or ideas
or opinions, then me, is, is myenemy and I've got to dissociate
from them.
I, we can't talk to each other,we can't interact, we've got to
get away from one another.
And I think, if we can learn tosee other people through the
(47:23):
lens of Jesus, that he has shedhis blood for all of them,
whether or not they acknowledgeit or not.
Right, it comes from a sense.
I think, that I Don't belong, iwasn't deserving, i was his
enemy when he shed his blood forme.
That shapes my perspective orhow I engage with any.
(47:44):
Then Right, whether that's aperson or an institution or a
group of people that I Don'tnecessarily feel like, i share
their viewpoint or I love whatthey think about That opens a
space, i think, for us as churchleaders.
One to say I Can lead, despiteEverything that I do isn't going
(48:10):
to be something everyone loves,that when I encounter
Disagreement, when I counterpushback, it doesn't mean I'm
encountering an enemy.
Maybe there's something aboutrestoring more of a reformed
idea of I think Abraham Kuipercalled it loyal opposition, that
leaders can surround themselveswith people who are going to
(48:32):
push back on their leadershipOnly for the sake of helping
that leader actually advancethemselves for the greatest
possible good that they can do.
And if we can model that, thenas Christians by engaging with
these other people in a greaterspirit of openness, because
Jesus went to them and we aresent to them as well Then maybe,
(48:55):
just maybe, we can rebuild thetrust that we have lost in our
time And we can shine the lightof the gospel in the world in a
much healthier way.
Speaker 2 (49:06):
Yes, This is so fun, chad.
I've loved learning with youtoday.
Just a clarion call forhumility, regardless of your
respective vocation or rolewithin the church.
If we all prayed for that andand saw it connected to Jesus,
the humble one Who gave it allfor us, who's coming again for
us, man, how, how much morehealthy Would and, i believe,
(49:29):
will the church be into thefuture.
This has been a lot of fun,chad, if people want to connect
with you, how can they do so?
Speaker 3 (49:35):
That's the ways by email.
My email is Chad Leckies, iguess at LHM Org.
I'm also not like he's.
Speaker 2 (49:46):
I love it Where you at.
Speaker 3 (49:47):
I'm also on socials Facebook and Twitter.
I'm more of a passive user ofthose things.
I don't post a lot, but I'm.
You can contact your privatemessage on those channels as we
go.
Speaker 2 (49:59):
Very cool man.
This has been a lot of funlistener.
Sharing is caring.
Please like subscribe.
We'll continue to havewonderful, hope filled
Conversations about how the Lordis.
He's always doing a new workconnected to his never-changing
Word and I do believe we are inone of those seminal, pivot,
pivotal moments right now withinthe American Christian Church,
(50:20):
the church across the globe, andthe Lord wants us, individually
and collectively, to play ourrole connected to the holy
Habits that you talked about, toshed the love and light and
life of Christ into this darkand dying world.
It's a good day.
Go and make it a great day.
We'll be back next week on theAmerican Reformation podcast.
Thanks so much, chad.
Speaker 3 (50:38):
Thanks for having me to him.
Speaker 2 (50:40):
Yeah, but it's a good time.
Hello and welcome to the brand new American
Reformation Podcast.
We long to see the widerAmerican Christian Church fall
more in love with Jesus bylearning from the practices of
the early church and other erasof discipleship multiplication.
We want to hear from you, makesure you comment and leave a
review, wherever you're watchingor listening, to tell us what
God is doing in your life or howyou feel about today's
(00:25):
conversation.
Lord, have your way in us, justdive in.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Welcome to the American Reformation Podcast,
tim Allman, here today with mybrother from another mother.
His name is Chad Lekees,reverend Dr Chad Lekees.
We met Chad and I met at aleadership gathering hosted by
Concordia Publishing House, cphand Lutheran Church Extension
(00:58):
Fund.
We realized which happens quitea bit in the Lutheran Church of
Missouri that we had a lot ofoverlapping streams and
relationships.
So a little bit about Chadbefore we get into our
conversation today.
He was a part of a.
If you're in the St Louiscommunity, you've heard of Crave
.
While he was a student in avicar in St Louis he was a part
(01:18):
of Crave, then got his PhD andwent and served at Concordia
University in Portland rightbefore their closure a number of
years ago.
And now he has landed atConcordia.
No, lutheran Hour Ministries.
There's so many Concordias andLutherans going on Lutheran Hour
Ministries And we're going tohear a little bit about his work
(01:39):
.
But before we do that, chad,welcome to the American
Reformation Podcast.
Standard question What are youpraying, brother, for
Reformation, just at the broadlevel in the American Christian
Church today?
Welcome, brother.
Thanks for your time.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
Tim, thanks for having me Real quickly for your
listeners.
I've just come to realize howgood of a listener you actually
are And so, yeah, that'd be oneprayer that more of us are
surrounded by people who arewilling to listen.
Other prayers are that thegenerational difference that
(02:15):
seems to exist in the churchbetween sort of the old guard
people who've been kind ofLutheran their whole life,
brought up this way, sort ofknown it one way forever, would
more and more interact with thespirit of listening, humility,
with those who are younger.
I used to not be a Lutheran oreven a Christian, but there are
(02:37):
many more who are trying to come, even after you and I, to
figure out what does it mean tobe a Christian in our time?
And there seems to be some kindof discontinuity between what
they're experiencing and feelingand wrestling with and the ways
that kind of have been for theolder Christians, tried and true
(03:02):
And well, why would we thinkabout it any other way?
Do it any other way?
But those are still, i think,good and curious questions where
both groups can kind of presson and mold one another.
But I'm not sure that whereverwe finally end up, it's going to
land in the sense of one sidesaying hey see, i was right all
(03:28):
along, but maybe God is up tosomething new, and I'm just
praying that the opportunitiesto listen and learn from one
another, especiallygenerationally, would be
fostered.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Yes, yes, right before we went on.
I'm talking about reading thenew large catechism put out by
CPH and with contemporaryapplications, annotations, all
of that and many wonderfulcontributions there.
But Luther's preface to thelarge catechism and his real
call, he gets pretty harsh.
You can see me with a lot ofpastors who are no longer
(04:06):
learning staying in the word,staying in catechesis, and I
think, if I could just boil itdown, he's calling for he is
calling for humility.
Readers are leaders And I praythat more of our leaders would
have that sense of humility.
Humilitas is a book, and I justremembered the name of the
author.
John Dixon came out with a bookcalled Humilitas and he looked
(04:29):
at the origin, chad, of humility.
Did you ever read that book, isit?
Speaker 3 (04:36):
really a dollar?
No, I'm not even familiar withit.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
So he did a study out of a university in Australia, a
secular study, on the originsof humility, because he was
looking at emperors and kingsthat had gone before, and a lot
of times in the historicalannals they would even
exaggerate their accomplishments, right, but somehow over the
last 2000 years this sort ofboasting in culture in general
(05:03):
is looked down upon.
And so he was like look andwhen did this shift occur?
Where humility, especiallyamong those who were in
positions of power, is elevated,it is a strong character trait
And newsflash.
It all oriented around theperson and work of Jesus Christ,
god in the flesh, who humbledhimself Philippians, chapter 2,
(05:25):
even to the point of death and across, and out of that God
elevated him, the Fatherelevated him.
So the more we know about onerespective discipline maybe it's
exegesis or history or sciencein general the more we know.
and then you've got a number ofdifferent streams and all of
those kind of disciplines right.
The more we know about onerespective stream, the more it
(05:48):
should humble us and how littlewe know about the other
respective streams.
To go deeper on that, do youthink that's one of the areas
where, because you spent a lotof time contemplating how to
disciple the next generation andmaybe young adults, who may be
skeptical.
Is it that pride of this is theway You must do it like this.
(06:11):
I'm speaking in very generalterms here, but do you think
that's one of the things thatsounds and smells gross to the
younger generation?
Go deeper in terms of humilityand intergenerational connection
.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
You know, i don't know if it necessarily smells
gross.
I think there are a lot ofyoung people out there who
realize people who've livedlonger than them, been doing it
longer than them, have wisdom tooffer, but they, i think, don't
feel as if they are treatedwith a similar kind of respect.
right, maybe they've learnedsomething that they could teach
(06:47):
the old dogs, right, but in asense all of us are still able
to learn new tricks.
You know Luther, his character.
he seems to fail this way allthe time, and it could be
something like a deathbedconfession.
but I think it's moreconsistent throughout his
theology, i mean, even in someof his earlier works, like the
(07:07):
Heidelberg Disputation, there'sa lot of sense of humility about
what we can know there, andLuther was pushing back
significantly on a certain kindof speculative theology.
But at the end of his life hesays you know all of my books,
they're straw right.
I mean the only one that hewanted to keep, where he thought
he did something really goodand made a significant
(07:28):
contribution was, you know, onthe bondage of the will.
And if only all of us couldhave an attitude like that.
But we don't have to go backfor such old models.
I mean Luther is a kind ofparagon model for us in the
Reformation tradition.
But I really liked David Brooks,the New York Times columnist,
(07:50):
his book A Road to Character.
He was actually writing it inthe midst of a period of time
where he was on the road toconverting to Christianity from
kind of a secular Judaism, andhe tells that story in a second
book called The Second Mountain.
But essentially he just tellsstory after story after story in
that book, the Road toCharacter, about how, you know,
(08:11):
after the 1950s it really seemedlike we were coming out of a
societal moment when there was alot of self-effacement.
Like you know, we're not sogreat.
you know, post-world War IIthere's victory and there's a
certain sense of well, you know,we just need to be thankful for
this moment and embrace it,because at the same time there's
victory, of course there's therecognition of so much loss and
(08:34):
destruction and horrible thingscommitted by humans.
But then he goes on to tell thestory of a number of people who
struggled through how to dealwith their own limitations and
weaknesses and find a way to besuccessful.
And many of those people wereconnected to God in some way,
had some sort of religiousbackground and I think they
(08:55):
served in a sense as a witnessto him.
right, he just studied theirlives And in addition to that
and a number of other influences, he came around to be a
follower of Jesus himself.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
That's powerful.
Who is the author of The Roadto Character?
What's his name?
again?
Speaker 3 (09:10):
Yeah, David Brooks is his name.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
David Brooks.
Check that out, bro, That'sawesome.
So tell, what I was fascinatedabout is your conversion story
coming to faith later in lifeand how that shaped your
ministry brother, Can you sharethat story?
Speaker 3 (09:24):
Yeah, i'll try to be brief.
I converted to Christianity,became a follower of Jesus in
the middle of my freshman yearof college.
Prior to that I had grown up ina nominally Christian home And
by that really it was Christianand name only.
We were Roman Catholic.
I was catechized all the waythrough, from about first or
(09:46):
second grade on through througheighth grade.
Pretty similar experience, ithink.
From what I understand, you knowconfirmation programs to be for
people in the Reformationtradition, but I walked away
from that kind of not reallyknowing the significance of
Jesus, not sure if that was theteacher's fault or if it's mine,
you know, just not payingattention to all that well, but
(10:13):
I encountered kind of the end ofthat period where in a sense
it's this moment in the eighthgrade where you kind of put on
the cloak of faith and own itfor yourself.
They kind of treat you like anadult and you know this is your
confession now And in a senseyou're kind of kicked out of
this formative environment tosort of keep it for yourself in
(10:36):
a sense, and because there'snothing going on in my home life
, there's nothing really to makeit sticky, important in ways
that are bigger and beyond.
You know just the sort of well,this is a good idea to be part
of the church.
I wanted the first ticket thatI could find out of some of
(10:56):
those obligations, like going tochurch randomly whenever my
parents would decide to do so,which was not more than you know
, maybe very few times per year.
But I didn't want to do it andI didn't know why we were doing
it, and so I didn't really feellike I was leaving anything
behind because there wasn't thatrootedness.
So all through high school Iwas an atheist.
(11:21):
I encountered the biologicaltheory of evolution and freshman
biology class And I thoughtthat made a lot of sense of
things, and it really does.
I think we should recognizehave very strong explanatory
power that we've got to wrestlewith as Christians in the modern
age.
But a parallel story to all ofthis is since I was a little kid
(11:41):
I've been playing drums, and mydad had a kiddie drum set that
I, as soon as I was able to sitin a chair, i was sitting down.
I remember the beat that Iwould make up even till this day
.
And then I got into organizedmusic in my school district and
played in everything, like allof the ensembles.
The marching band even had somegarage bands and basement bands
(12:02):
when I was in high school Andevery kind of music you could
think of, all the venues rightfrom the crappiest dive bar
where I thought me and my drumswe're going to fall through this
rickety stage to like NFLfootball stadiums for marching
band, state competitions Andseriously everything in between.
And then I was playing, finally, at the end of high school in a
(12:25):
Blues Brothers cover band,taking songs from that classic
movie And we had a bit of achoreographed act.
And it's because the artsprogram at our school was so
good that all of us were able tokind of put this together, as
about 10 guys Played some shows,won a contest, played a bunch
of graduation open houses Andthen, of course, we had to all
(12:45):
go our separate ways for college.
But while we were rehearsing itwas in the garage of one of the
lead singers.
His mom was a Lutheran churchpraise team leader.
She's heard me and thought Icould hack it well enough and
offered you know that I wouldcome play drums at their church.
And I said, well, wait a minute.
You know I'm an atheist, right?
And she said, yeah, we know.
(13:05):
And so I thought of it and I'mokay, i'll do it if it's a gig,
you know I'll take it if you payme.
So they said okay And so Istarted showing up roughly the
middle of that summer, rightafter high school graduation,
playing drums in church.
What I experienced in thatperiod of about six months was
(13:28):
two things.
I went in with a lot oftrepidation.
I was worried are you going totry to shove Jesus down my
throat?
Are you going to beat me overthe head of the Bible and tell
me I'm an immoral person becauseI'm an atheist And there's this
presupposition that atheistshave no morality?
They didn't do any of thosethings.
In fact, i was welcomed withopen arms and welcomed into an
(13:49):
environment of a bunch of moremature musicians than me.
They'd been playing togetherfor a while.
They'd done lots of differentthings.
I learned how to play livemusic without a conductor with
them, you know, through a lot oflistening.
Again, it's a super importantthing for musicians.
And then I really kind of wantedGod to make himself tangible.
(14:10):
You know, if I'm going tobelieve this stuff that you're
talking about, yeah, i have alot of objections, but I want
God to, you know, make it liketangibly real to me.
Hello, chad, you know, repentand believe the gospel.
I need to hear that audibly orit's written up on the wall
somewhere.
You know something like that.
And neither of those thingshappened.
But what did happen was playingdrums there.
(14:31):
I felt like I played better andI had more fun than all these
other venues and previous kindsof musical style or ensemble
I've been in.
I couldn't really explain that.
So that genuine Christianhospitality that I experienced
and you know the sense ofplaying drums in that
environment.
You know, maybe the scout isreal, maybe he created me to
(14:53):
have this ability and maybe whenI use it for him it goes better
.
I didn't know.
I still really don't know theanswer to that question, but it
was enough to become a tippingpoint.
So in the middle of my freshmanyear I went to bed one night
and I said God, i still don'tknow if you're real, but I'll
give you a chance.
And that changed everythingabout my life.
I went from being somebody whodidn't really like school to.
(15:16):
You know, i suddenly wasdevouring books, trying to
answer the questions that I hadto deal with the conversion
experience.
I started to like to write alittle bit.
I fairly quickly felt the callto go to seminary and people at
that congregation, you know,poured into me and said we see
that aptitude in you too.
And so off I went And, um, goddoes what God does.
(15:44):
You know, there's a number oftangential bits to that story,
but yeah, that's the basic bit.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
That's so amazing.
I mean, just I want to be, youknow, i have to share the church
, but like we need more.
Unless you want to, we needmore churches like that man that
just open-handedly love andmeet young people, old people
too, people that have questions,doubts, to just show Christian
hospitality to them.
(16:11):
And I'm sure you can go off ona number of different stories,
like if this is the heavinessaround I mean it's all the lords
and so there's a lightness toit but like the work of inviting
the stranger, the sojourner,those that are just trying to
figure life out, and this is forall of God's people, because I
(16:31):
bet if there was one person inthat story Chad could have been
a church leader, elder pastor,whatever that'd come up and said
and given you like theslightest hint early on that you
were not welcome, you wouldhave bounced.
Speaker 3 (16:44):
Is that true?
You know it might have been.
A little more pressure wasrequired in that moment because
I had made a commitment to them.
Right, this was a gig they'repaying me.
I knew how to be professional,right, this wasn't my first
rodeo in that regard.
I'd already done a little bitof gigging prior, and my parents
(17:05):
raised me with a certain kindof ethic.
You know that I might havetalked to the leaders about, you
know.
Well, hey, this person saidblah, blah, blah to me.
You know what do I make of that, but I probably want to bail
unless there is a lot ofpressure.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Yeah, sure, but nonetheless, you didn't receive
any of that.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
I mean, it was just open, no, no, and it gets to
your point, i think, in terms ofthe character of this church,
they took a risk right bybringing someone in who didn't
share any of their confessionalcommitments and then put them
into a leadership positioneffectively.
Right, i'm up there leadingmusic, right, and I could have
probably misbehaved a lot, saida number of things like I don't
(17:46):
believe this, this is silly, youall are stupid.
I probably could have done anumber of really damaging things
and they probably would havebooted me to the curb real fast,
But they welcomed me.
A number of people were prayingfor me.
It was the spirit was just atwork to get me in.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
That's so shaped, then the really the rest of your
life up to this point, chad,because would tell our listeners
about your PhD and why you gotthe PhD and in the discipline
you received it and then andthen move into your Concordia
Portland kind of experience, ifyou would.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
Yeah.
So I knew as I was goingthrough the pastoral formation
program that I wasn't reallysure that serving a congregation
in the traditional sense wasthe right fit for me, and so I
started looking at grad schooland applied for PhDs at a
variety of places and wasrejected.
(18:44):
At two of the places that Iapplied to They wanted me to
know exactly what topic I wantedto work on so they could slot
me with an advisor and so on.
So it wasn't because I didn'thave the merit, my grades were
good enough and so on, but Ijust didn't sort of fit their
mold of how they wanted torecruit new students.
So I stayed in the ConcordiaSeminary in St Louis, welcomed
(19:07):
me to keep studying and slowly,over a lot of conversations, i
worked out my thesis topic withmy Dr, fr Joel Okamoto.
He knew me from the very firstyear that I was there as a
student and, for whatever reason, i was very attracted to how he
thinks And he knew the sideministry that I was doing at
(19:32):
Crave and really planting a newchurch and trying to figure out
how to get that off the ground,do it faithfully but in a bit of
a different style than wastypical in our church body.
And so, as I got going, one ofthe things that I figured out
was I want to understand how itis that the church sort of gets
(19:54):
off track of where God wants itto go and becomes unwittingly
captive to American culture.
And so I really did a lot ofwork on figuring out what does
it mean for the church to be acommunity formed as a community,
a place that is full of habits,habits and rituals and so on
that aim us to be a particularkind of people.
(20:16):
That's what the liturgy doesand is supposed to do.
But that connection tocommunity one of the big
weaknesses is, for us AmericanChristians is just an hour on
Sunday and that's not aformative enough of an
environment.
And so, as we live in anotherenvironment, deeply immersed, we
carry in a lot of practices andhabits out of that environment.
(20:38):
We start to apply them to lifein the church and then,
unwittingly, we are captive tothe ways of American culture and
are forming better Americansthan we are Christians.
And so I really highlightedthree different ways we do that.
I talked about preaching asbeing captive to the therapeutic
right, the triumph of thetherapeutic.
(20:59):
It's a book that was reallywritten very prophetically in
the 1960s by a guy named PhilipReif, a Jewish sociologist of
culture out of the University ofPennsylvania, and essentially
our preaching is captured tothat, in the sense that our
preaching is most oftenfunctioning as trying to make
people feel better and helpingthem cope with the challenges of
(21:20):
life.
And it even comes across whenwe say very gospel oriented
things like you know, it's allokay, jesus died for your sins.
Well, actually it's not okay.
Right, because in a horizontalrelationship between us and God,
right, we're clean, we're wetas shed, you know, we're made
white as snow on the, on thesorry, that was vertical.
Yeah, on the horizontal, youknow us to people.
(21:42):
There's still consequences formy actions, right.
So, yeah, i could forgive youfor that divorce or for lying
against me or for you know gosh,countless things in a Christian
way.
but there's still consequences,right, there's a cost, and so I
think our preaching needs todeal with that more
significantly, and I think inmany ways, lutherans are very
(22:05):
good at that.
Two others very quickly, ithink.
When we talk about the doctrineof vocation, it's often really
narrow and captive to theculture of total work, right.
So it's a kind of work hard.
Give it your all, because Jesusgave his all for you.
Which flip flops.
(22:27):
The gospel turns it into a law,right?
The good news is Jesus gave usall for you, so go do what he
did.
Well, none of us are capable ofthat.
It's just a gift to be received, and so I think our sense of
vocation is very narrow, andLuther meant it much more
broadly and huge.
And then, last, when we try toreach out and get people into
our church, be attractive,relevant, you know, it turns
(22:49):
evangelism into kind of amarketing project.
It's not really introducingpeople to Jesus as much as it's
trying to get them into ourplace right, maybe to do things
like pay the bills, keep thelights on right, be the big,
successful looking churchcompared to all the other people
in town, and it's just motivesget a little messed up.
So that's what I worked on Andwhat were your conclusions?
Speaker 2 (23:14):
I mean, that was general hypotheses, that kind of
went in And then, yeah, whatobservations did you make?
You kind of hinted at it withLutherans and our law, gospel
preaching like we are not theconsumerist preachers, we will
make the comfortableuncomfortable, and vice versa.
So, by law and gospel, whatother observations, though,
(23:35):
especially around vocation, didyou kind of discover?
And because I'm geeking outright now on a number of
different, i think we need morepeople doing sociological
coupled with theological studiesright now.
So just go a little bit deeper.
Chad, it's fascinating.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
Yeah, so all of them kind of circled around this
pre-work that I did onecclesiology.
What does it mean to be a churchcommunity that has practices
that are supposed to lead tohabits, which are supposed to
lead to a certain way of beingright?
If you think in Aristotelianterms, it's kind of carrying out
the virtues, but really we cantalk about it in a Lutheran
(24:14):
sense of forming real disciplesof Jesus, authentic followers of
Jesus.
Right, there's a certaincharacter that goes with that.
You can call it virtue, buttraditionally we just use the
biblical language of someone wholives more and more like Jesus.
That's what our practices aremeant to do, and so I was really
, every time I dealt with one ofthose issues, bringing it back
(24:37):
around to what does an authentic, orthodox, genuine biblical
practice looks like?
look like that brings us backto being a follower of Jesus,
where we reflect his ways beforethe watching world.
And so, yeah, i totally agreewith you thinking about how to
marry theological andsociological talk, where
(25:00):
theology is always the primaryvoice, but understanding what we
can from many of these otherdisciplines that teach us about
the way communities function,for example.
It's really helpful for thechurch and imminently practical.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
Imminently practical.
So I'm fascinated with thepower of habit and how that
shapes the Christian.
Jesus was obviously I like toframe it like this that it's not
what would Jesus do.
Jesus is perfect.
Jesus, holy God, holy man, 100%healthy, could differentiate
(25:39):
and stay connected.
There's some systems work there.
He's the super human man.
So it's not what would Jesus do, but it's what did Jesus do on
his way to fulfilling hismission.
What were the practices ofJesus?
So could you nail in on some ofthose Christian formation
practices that you think theeveryday baptized follower of
(26:01):
Jesus would do well to emulate?
Speaker 3 (26:03):
Sure, there are even things that I'm not good at or
not consistent about.
Probably me too.
I'm as weak as any otherChristian right.
But at Lutheran Hour Ministrieswe talk about basic spiritual
disciplines like reading yourBible right, being in the Word,
or reading something that helpsyou get into the Word like a
(26:23):
devotion.
Then we would talk about, ofcourse, being a part of
Christian community, so being inchurch every single Sunday,
because that's where Goddelivers His gifts, that's where
He does His work Right.
We're kind of always passivereceivers of His formative work.
That's where the Spirit is, andwhen we do it together with
(26:45):
others, there's so much morepower than when we're trying to
do it individually.
Prayer is another one rightwhere you find ways to talk to
God, but even more so practicetrying to listen to how He's
moving you through life.
But it's always a posture, ithink, in prayer, where you're
(27:06):
sort of you're humbled.
Right, you're sitting beforethis awesome, awesome God, who
is nevertheless inviting you tobe there to hear you, but at the
same time, while He's listening, he's involved in forming and
shaping you to be the sort ofperson who hears with a
(27:28):
different set of ears, sees theworld and other people in it in
a different way.
Right, you're being molded tobe a little more Christ-like in
all of those sorts of practices.
They're very basic.
There's lots of other ones inthe Christian church.
Silence and solitude, i think,are huge and necessary in our
time because of the way that wecan get so pulled into our
(27:50):
devices and the alternativerealities that they offer to us.
I'm a big reader, reading booksand all the different ways that
other people make argumentsthat change my mind And
effectively I take that to beGod working through them to
reveal something bigger to myimagination about Him and this
(28:14):
creation that He has made right.
So every time my assumptionsare challenged, that's formative
as well.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Amen, amen.
No, that's so good, it reallyis this simplicity.
And then setting the rhythm.
And I'm a morning, i'm amorning guy, and if I don't
start my morning, i'm moving mybody and, through movement of
body, allowing the mind to bemoved more and more after the
(28:44):
heart and mind of Jesus.
Again, we're not pursuingperfection, just progress here,
just meditating on the Word, themiracle morning.
For me, chad is like push-ups,planks, prayer, word, all of
that kind of did to get myselfgoing.
So again, there's so much gracein this conversation.
(29:04):
We're following Jesus, right.
I mean, we've been baptizedinto His name.
He's not ashamed of us, heloves us.
He knows our frailty, he knowshow our desires get misoriented
and how much we just want to bearound Him because His Spirit
lives within us.
He's so, so near to us.
And I think, as we talk aboutthe younger generation, you and
(29:28):
I now we're roughly the same age.
We're firmly in Middle Age,bill, their Chad and I'm owning
it.
It's okay, it's cool.
I got three kids in their teenyears right now.
But talk about, especially inyour work at Concordia Portland,
some of the misconceptions thatmaybe our older Jesus followers
(29:48):
may have of our younger Jesusfollowers today, and how did
your work there at ConcordiaPortland kind of shape your
understanding of that nextgeneration?
Speaker 3 (29:59):
Yeah, i think a big misunderstanding that came out
about a decade or so ago is thesense that millennials and the
early Gen Zers are somethinglike the Me Me Me generation,
that they're all just a bunch ofnarcissists.
And there's so much alternativeresearch to counter that, but
that message kind of got intothe popular mainstream media.
(30:22):
And then there, of course,there's always sort of this,
this interesting tendencyamongst older generations
looking down on youngergenerations and seeing that
they're handling the worlddifferently.
They've got different problemsand challenges than the older
generations have And we've got abad memory as older generations
.
Like you know, if, looking back, we've made it so far in life
(30:47):
And it feels like what we wentthrough wasn't as difficult
before, and so when we seeyounger generations going
through something difficult,we're like what's wrong with
them?
Why do they have so manyproblems?
But you know, in addition tothat feeling and that
sensibility, is this the sensethat they're all about me, the
Me Me Me generation.
They're all a bunch ofindividualistic people, but the
(31:09):
counter research actually saysno.
They are people who are lookingto be a part of something
bigger than themselves.
They want to leave a mark onthe world.
They want to.
They're already thinking at ayoung age about their legacy And
since, how will they beremembered?
They might not articulate itthat way, but when you talk
(31:31):
about leaving a mark on theworld, you know they're thinking
about how will I be remembered.
And so I think for us, aspeople who are working with
young people, we've got such agreat opportunity in terms of
inviting them into the Christianstory, because what better
(31:51):
story to invite them into thanthe one of the grandeur of God
working in the world.
Right, paul says Christ is inthe world, reconciling, right,
that's one way of characterizingLuther.
Talked about you know hisclassic doctrine of vocation,
and it talks about every singlerole that you might have in life
.
Some that are permanent you'reborn a son or a daughter, you're
(32:14):
never not a son or a daughter.
Some that come later and endure, becoming a spouse or a parent.
Some that are temporary, beinga certain kind of employer or
employee or a student or avolunteer, and on and on right,
being a citizen.
All of these things help yousee every aspect of your life as
(32:36):
a role through which God isreaching down from heaven to use
you, as if Luther would saybehind a mask right To work and
care for his neighbor.
So the most mundane, ordinaryand often undesirable and gross
things, the stuff that we don'twant to do, you know, like
(32:57):
changing diapers, you canactually flip that whole story
and say this service to mylittle baby has eternal
significance, right.
And so for moms and dads whoare just deep into that kind of
(33:17):
parental element of life andit's a difficult part of, i mean
, this child is super needy,right.
But that takes us back into youknow the gospel, you know
Matthew 18 and the focus on thechild and that whole series of
passages that are classic to us.
You know what Jesus is doing,and holding up the child is
(33:39):
holding up the needy one, andit's always us, right, we're
always the needy one Andeveryone around us is always the
needy one.
And Luther tells this grandstory of vocation, where God's
reaching down through us toinvolve us in the work of caring
for the needy ones.
And I don't know what betterstory to use to say here's how
(34:01):
you can be a part of somethingbigger than yourself And here's
how you can leave a mark on theworld.
It might not be one that theywrite about in the history books
, but it has eternalsignificance And I think that's
better, and so I would just tryto invite students into that.
And then, because of mybackground, formerly being a
(34:23):
non-believer, i wanted them tosee what it meant to be an
authentic Christian who didn'tknow how to do this walk very
well.
I mean, i've learned a lot oftheology, but I'm still being
formed in how to follow Jesuswell.
And so see someone who wouldmake mistakes, admit the
mistakes, ask for forgiveness.
See someone who is quoteunquote an expert right, i'm the
(34:46):
professor, but I don't have allthe answers to say you know
what I don't know, that's okay.
I think I know how to find thisout.
And walk with me on thisjourney to figure out what you
wanna know, right?
So those sorts of things arejust we've got a world of
opportunity before us if we cansee it through that lens.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
Yes, wow, so much there.
So I would invite you know,maybe older and I'm, you know,
i'm in my 40s, but the 60 yearold follower of Jesus I think
there was, there's always anevery generation bend, that
desire for more and a life ofsignificance and to be connected
(35:28):
to something bigger, which isthe grandeur of God.
I think back, you know, theWorld War II generation and a
number of kids here in theUnited States of America were
like I will go, like every kidand lady for that matter, was
like we are all united aroundthis mission.
how much greater, rather thanone country fighting or
countries fighting othercountries, is the grandeur of
(35:48):
the calling of God in ourvarious vocations, using the
unique gifts that God has givento us.
So I think if we can kind oftap into that, and especially we
got older generations who comedown to say I remember what it
was like, you're gonna be okay,the Lord is good, and let me be
a spiritual we don't use theseterms very well, i would say in
the church but a spiritualfather and mother for you to be
(36:12):
a part of that kind of villagementality, because, man, i need
a lot of other adults speakingwords of life and love into my
teenagers right now to castvision for their life, to let
them know they're not alone.
Obviously Christ in community isgonna be there for them.
So go deeper in terms of thesolid invitation for an older
adult starting to maybe disciplea younger child that may not be
(36:35):
necessarily their child orgrandchild because I think
there's a lot of opportunity forthe church to grow in that
effort.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
Thoughts there, chad?
Yeah, so one thing that we tryto do in my house is we have a
neighbor kid over fairlyregularly and she kind of just
gets to see how we are, becauseI really don't know what her
family background is.
we've not gotten to know herparents very well, but they
trust us at being able to haveher over and she's got a number
(37:05):
of much younger siblings and Ithink they're a handful over
there for mom and dad, and sothe older kids board and mom is
preoccupied with the much moresignificant needs of the young
ones.
So she comes over, plays withmy kids and we make lunch and we
have a lunch prayer and we talkabout things the way that we
(37:27):
normally would, but it's thislike slow drip of exposure to
Jesus and the way of theChristian life.
and the formation, then, thatwe've got to do with our kids is
they're growing up and they'refiguring out how to have this
social relationship with oneanother.
There's often a lot of guidance, of pointing out what's
important about how to get along, and that always comes from our
(37:50):
Christian foundation.
What do you talk about olderkids?
I think you're talking aboutthe fact that you're an
assistant football coach foryour kids football team right?
And what better environment,especially for young men, to be
formed by older, more mature men, wiser men, but men who sort of
(38:11):
have this spirit of wanting topour into young people.
I remember growing up one of mybest friends, his father, had
committed suicide and he reallyhad no fathers and I watched him
a number of times kind of latchonto my dad in a way, and my
dad did what he could to reallypour into him and just be a good
(38:32):
male presence in his life.
but he didn't have enough ofthose And so he made a few not
great choices in his youngeradult, his early adult years
that I think he's still payingsome of the consequences for.
He's found his way better, butit was really a challenge.
When we look out there at ourcongregations or even our
(38:57):
neighborhoods, the schoolclasses where our kids are
spending most of their time, wedon't have to, i think,
manufacture a lot ofopportunities and think, you
know, i've got to do somethingreally unique and special to be
able to pour into the lives ofyoung people.
I had it easy as a professor hada captive audience, you know,
(39:19):
for 15 weeks at a time, a numberof them in fact, and so that
was easy for me.
You know, now I'm trying tofind ways to do it with my
daughters and then some of thekids that she's hanging around
with at church or some of theschool friends that she'll have
over on occasion, you know, butwe're just sort of getting to
(39:39):
that age where they're spendingmore time together outside of
the school day in the classroom.
It's not the greatest answer Idon't feel like I'm giving you,
but it's just a simple, it'sordinary, it's mundane.
Right, it's where we live.
There are ways that you canjust sort of think about this
ahead of time and think this iswho I want to be when we're
(40:00):
together.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
Chad.
I couldn't agree more, man.
It's simple.
just invite a kid the Lordplaces on your heart.
You see the kid that's by himor herself You've maybe got a
connection to the mom or dadconnected to your church and
just ask if you could take himout to a game to coffee.
If it happens to be a friend,just invite him into your world.
(40:23):
We had a young man by the nameof Nico that went on a week-long
vacation with us and a numberof different families And the
connection, the naturalconnection, wasn't weird.
Now I have the rapport that Ihave with Nico could pay
dividends all the way throughour high school years together.
So it is very, very simple.
This is the simple work that Ithink the Lutheran Hour
(40:45):
Ministries is really callingpeople to.
So tell our listeners a littlebit about your work and how
Lutheran Hour is just gettingafter it right now, in very
creative and yet simple ways asit relates to discipleship.
Speaker 3 (40:59):
Yeah, one of my favorite things about Lutheran
Hour is we have kind of alwaysbeen the same organization, So
most people know us.
They're most familiar with theLutheran Hour, the radio program
that's on every single Sundayacross the country and in parts
of Canada.
We're a mass media gospelproclamation organization.
We've been doing that, for thisis gonna be in September the
(41:24):
91st season of the Lutheran Hour, So we've been doing that
before anybody else, any otherChristian group got into media.
And now we do it all over theworld with social media and
videos and bringing peopletogether to show movies and
pretty much anything that youcan think of.
That's media-based radio still,especially television,
(41:46):
satellite TV.
We're just sort of floodingthese areas of the world with
subtle, friendly, winsome gospelpresentations.
And that's one of the thingsthat we're trying to do,
especially in the United States,is really emphasize this idea
of how can we Christians gain ahearing in our time And
(42:11):
especially that's especially, Ithink, critical in a time when
there's so much confrontationand antagonism between peoples,
people, groups, the church andculture, the church and society,
How can Christians be apositive witness to the kingdom
other than being winsome, beingauthentic, being who you say,
(42:32):
that you are living that life ofhumility, asking for
forgiveness when you screw up,serving where you can.
Right Seeing needs, meeting themjust like the Good Samaritan.
Our neighbors are who Godbrings into our life that we
have the capability of serving.
It's no esoteric sort of thing,It's as simple as that And
(42:56):
these are the things we're justtrying to emphasize And we're
trying to talk about howhouseholds are places of
spiritual formation, So that ifyou do it there as I was talking
about just a minute ago with mydaughter and the young lady who
comes over, if we do it here,we might give off a very basic
Christian witness That iswinsomely enough received,
(43:18):
generates enough trust in anumber of Christians that look,
even if we're not somehowresponsible for her joining the
church at some point, we've lefta mark so that maybe, as God
brings her into contact withother Christians over time, they
might water that seed, as itwere, right And eventually she
(43:41):
becomes a part of God's family.
Maybe, her family becomes a partof God's family.
Who knows?
Yeah, right, just beingfaithful.
Speaker 2 (43:48):
That's wonderful.
That is wonderful And I'mgrateful you're a part of
Lutheran hour ministries andexcited to see how your work has
a ripple effect into the future.
So one of our last questionsthis is a podcast of the United
Leadership Collective and we'reunashamedly leaders within
Lutheran Church of MissouriSynod and we're also making some
statements about how we believein written and verbal form.
(44:12):
We could be restored to health,Leaders could be more healthy,
We could have not just quantitybut quality of pastors and other
leaders for the future of thechurch, which is going to look
different than it has, andmostly Christian America, et
cetera.
So any words of hope for say,what is the Lutheran Church of
(44:33):
Missouri Synod?
Not just look but feel like inyour mind.
Say, a decade from now, howwould you hope the character of
the Lutheran Church of MissouriSynod, the culture of the
Lutheran Church of MissouriSynod, would grow and become
more like Christ Chad.
Speaker 3 (44:48):
Yeah, let me try to do that by marrying a number of
threads that we've talked aboutin this podcast.
So I think, if I were to lookahead, the church that I would
like to see is one that has cometo grips with the fact that We
were maybe living in a worldhistorical moment.
right, you and I talked aboutPhyllis Tickles book.
Speaker 1 (45:11):
Is it the great reformation?
Speaker 3 (45:13):
the emerging church or emerging the great emergence,
the great emergence, greatemergence, there we go it's a
her point at the very end ofthat book, and you know it's
just a hypothesis is, every 500years the church has what she
calls a rummage sale, and Youknow.
So you've got birth of Christ,the fall of Rome and, 500, 500
(45:33):
years later, the split betweenEast and West, roughly 500 years
after that, the reformation.
And You know, now we're about500 years out from then.
Right, is something happening.
I don't know, but it sure feelslike things are convulsing
substantially, not just in thechurch But in the society,
especially a Western societywhere we live.
Yes, major changes going on.
Is your hypothesis right?
(45:54):
I have no idea, but maybe, andAnd if we lean into the
possibility that maybe we're onthe verge of something, a move
of God, i think it's gonna comeout of this sense that This,
this amount of fracture,splintering, polarization,
antagonism in our society, issomething that all of us see and
(46:14):
and Survey upon servicing, weremassively dissatisfied with.
We don't like this aboutourselves.
We don't know what to do aboutit.
I think the church can lead theway, because Jesus teaches us a
number of things.
Right.
Every time we run into someonewho believes something different
than us, hold something sacredin their core their convictions.
(46:36):
It's different than us.
Jesus never let those issuesprevent a relationship.
I mean, we always focus on sin,right, he never let our sin
prevent a relationship, butexpand that that way that Paul
characterizes it in Romans 5right, while we were still his
enemies, i have, i think, thatwe we tend automatically to be,
(46:59):
because we're immersed in thisculture, to be captive to the
cultural Imagination of thinkingthat someone who disagrees with
me or has a different set ofconvictions or beliefs or ideas
or opinions, then me, is, is myenemy and I've got to dissociate
from them.
I, we can't talk to each other,we can't interact, we've got to
get away from one another.
And I think, if we can learn tosee other people through the
(47:23):
lens of Jesus, that he has shedhis blood for all of them,
whether or not they acknowledgeit or not.
Right, it comes from a sense.
I think, that I Don't belong, iwasn't deserving, i was his
enemy when he shed his blood forme.
That shapes my perspective orhow I engage with any.
(47:44):
Then Right, whether that's aperson or an institution or a
group of people that I Don'tnecessarily feel like, i share
their viewpoint or I love whatthey think about That opens a
space, i think, for us as churchleaders.
One to say I Can lead, despiteEverything that I do isn't going
(48:10):
to be something everyone loves,that when I encounter
Disagreement, when I counterpushback, it doesn't mean I'm
encountering an enemy.
Maybe there's something aboutrestoring more of a reformed
idea of I think Abraham Kuipercalled it loyal opposition, that
leaders can surround themselveswith people who are going to
(48:32):
push back on their leadershipOnly for the sake of helping
that leader actually advancethemselves for the greatest
possible good that they can do.
And if we can model that, thenas Christians by engaging with
these other people in a greaterspirit of openness, because
Jesus went to them and we aresent to them as well Then maybe,
(48:55):
just maybe, we can rebuild thetrust that we have lost in our
time And we can shine the lightof the gospel in the world in a
much healthier way.
Speaker 2 (49:06):
Yes, This is so fun, chad.
I've loved learning with youtoday.
Just a clarion call forhumility, regardless of your
respective vocation or rolewithin the church.
If we all prayed for that andand saw it connected to Jesus,
the humble one Who gave it allfor us, who's coming again for
us, man, how, how much morehealthy Would and, i believe,
(49:29):
will the church be into thefuture.
This has been a lot of fun,chad, if people want to connect
with you, how can they do so?
Speaker 3 (49:35):
That's the ways by email.
My email is Chad Leckies, iguess at LHM Org.
I'm also not like he's.
Speaker 2 (49:46):
I love it Where you at.
Speaker 3 (49:47):
I'm also on socials Facebook and Twitter.
I'm more of a passive user ofthose things.
I don't post a lot, but I'm.
You can contact your privatemessage on those channels as we
go.
Speaker 2 (49:59):
Very cool man.
This has been a lot of funlistener.
Sharing is caring.
Please like subscribe.
We'll continue to havewonderful, hope filled
Conversations about how the Lordis.
He's always doing a new workconnected to his never-changing
Word and I do believe we are inone of those seminal, pivot,
pivotal moments right now withinthe American Christian Church,
(50:20):
the church across the globe, andthe Lord wants us, individually
and collectively, to play ourrole connected to the holy
Habits that you talked about, toshed the love and light and
life of Christ into this darkand dying world.
It's a good day.
Go and make it a great day.
We'll be back next week on theAmerican Reformation podcast.
Thanks so much, chad.
Speaker 3 (50:38):
Thanks for having me to him.
Speaker 2 (50:40):
Yeah, but it's a good time.
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