June 25, 2025 • 48 mins
What does it truly mean to follow Christ? According to Dr. Michael Gorman, it goes far beyond simply believing the right doctrines. In this profound conversation, the renowned biblical scholar challenges us to consider whether we've been misreading the Apostle Paul all along.
Dr. Michael Gorman shares his groundbreaking work on Pauline theology, exploring how Christians are called to not just believe the gospel but embody it. The conversation navigates deep theological waters with practical applications for how the church lives out its mission in today's polarized world.
• The theology of the cross vs. theology of glory - understanding the cross as both the source and shape of our salvation
• Common misreadings of Paul that focus only on individual forgiveness instead of communal transformation
• How Western Christianity tends to individualize Paul's messages that were written to communities
• Understanding grace as "unconditional but not unconditioned" - requiring grateful response
• Why faith, love, and hope form the core theological virtues in Paul's writings
• The concept of "anticipatory participation" - living now as a foretaste of God's coming kingdom
• How peace-making should be central to the church's witness in a polarized society
• The dangers of Christians seeking worldly influence and power rather than servant leadership
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to the Tim Allman Podcast.
It's a beautiful day to bealive.
Pray the joy of the crucifiedand risen Jesus is your strength
.
I've been looking forward tothis conversation for so long.
About six months ago I was toldby Dr Jeff Cloa to check out
the book Becoming the GospelPaul, participation and Mission,
and I just I looked up on theinternet and you can find all
(00:27):
sorts of people on the internetand I was like I wonder if Dr
Michael Gorman would be open tocoming on for a chat.
And you, graciously, dr Gorman,I think within a day or two,
got back to me and said yeah,let's talk about Jesus together.
So let me tell you about him,if you've not heard of Dr Gorman
.
He holds the Raymond E BrownChair of Biblical Studies and
Theology at St Mary's Seminary,which he just told me is the
(00:49):
oldest Catholic seminary in theUnited States, and it also has
another seminary that runs outof it, at the very same time
serving the wider church.
It's an ecumenical seminary.
We can maybe start with somequestions there Connected.
He lives outside of Baltimore,maryland Now.
He has written so many books.
I'm going to give you a numberof them here Cruciformity,
(01:10):
paul's narrative of the crossand inhabiting the cruciform God
, both companion books.
And inhabiting the cruciformGod is his second book, and then
this companion book, becomingthe Gospel.
It came out about a decade ago.
He's right in the commentaryspace right now.
His newest book just came out amonth or so ago, commentary on
1 Corinthians.
(01:31):
He had a Romans commentaryconnected to Erdman's, I believe
, and Baker books that came out.
A Romans commentary came out in2022, and he's now working on
Philippians.
So, reverend Dr Michael Gorman,how are you doing, brother?
Thank you for your generosityof time.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Thank you, tim, for having me and for that kind
introduction.
It's great to meet you and tohave a chance to talk with you,
so thanks for the invitation.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Well, we're going to have a great time.
And you just told me that youhave some Lutheran background.
Your kids went to a Lutherangrade school and even this last
week you went and worshiped atone of our LCMS churches in your
community.
And if you know anything aboutwe as Lutherans, well, one we
love Jesus, we love grace, welove the mercy of God flowing
(02:12):
from the cross, but we have astrong theology of the cross and
I was fascinated as your book.
You have a very strong theologyof the cross.
It sounds a bit like MartinLuther.
Have a very strong theology ofthe cross.
It sounds a bit like MartinLuther.
Just curious, how much ofLuther have you read?
Speaker 2 (02:32):
and kind of maybe knowingly or unknowingly-
incorporated into some of yourwritings, dr Gorman.
Yeah Well, again thanks, tim.
My background with the Lutheranchurch is primarily through a
school that our kids went to.
My wife actually went to aLutheran church when she was
young.
My familiarity with the LCMS isthrough not through churches
per se in my own experience, butof course I read Luther.
(02:55):
When I was in seminary.
I went to Princeton TheologicalSeminary and we read a lot of
Reformation texts, includingCalvin, of course, and Luther.
I think Luther probably got intome accidentally, if you will,
it wasn't deliberately, butmaybe what Luther and I have in
common is and the reason we havethe cross in common is because
I think we were both trying toread Paul on Paul's own terms,
(03:17):
and sometimes Luther getsaccused of reading Paul
completely in a 16th centurycontext, with a 16th century
lens, and he doesn't reallyunderstand Paul per se.
I don't buy that.
There might be some truth tothat, but I mean, who reads Paul
perfectly?
And I read Paul.
I deliberately read Paul from a21st century perspective as
(03:38):
well as a first century.
So I think it's our commoninterest in Christ crucified,
and especially for me, overagainst the theology of glory,
which of course Luther alsoopposed and I think in our
political context it's onethat's very concerning to me.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Well, let's pause there for a bit.
You had me at theology of thecross and theology of glory for
a bit.
You had me at theology of thecross and theology of glory.
For those who are unfamiliarmaybe with those terms, would
you define first this theologyof the cross over and against
theology of glory.
Dr Gorman, in yourunderstanding, yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
So theology of the cross from my point of view is
that it takes Paul veryseriously when he says I decided
to know nothing among youexcept Jesus Christ, that is,
jesus Christ crucified.
Of course he wouldn't even careabout the crucified Jesus if he
wasn't also the resurrectedJesus.
So he's not eliminated in theresurrection.
But he's saying that, as theGerman theologian Ernst Casemann
(04:34):
said last century, that thecross is the signature of the
risen one, so Jesus remains thecrucified Messiah, even as the
exalted Lord.
And we see that in John 20,when he's got the marks in his
hands and his sign and so forth.
So but for me the theology ofthe cross means that the cross
is central, not only in terms ofthe source of our salvation,
(04:56):
but also the very shape of oursalvation, or the source of our
spirituality, the source of ourspirituality and the shape of
our spirituality.
So that's why I use the termcruciform and cruciformity.
Sometimes I think, and maybeeven in some Lutheran circles,
there's so much emphasis on thecross as the place where we get
(05:18):
forgiveness of sins.
Amen, I don't want to disputethat.
But let's move on and see whatit means to live within the
realm of the crucified Messiahand his sort of canonic,
self-emptying, self-giving love.
The theology of power, on theother hand, represents only an
(05:38):
understanding of Jesus as theresurrected one who's come in
glory and who wants to exercisepower, political and otherwise,
without any reference to thecross.
So it leaves the cross in thedust, and I think Luther was
absolutely right to say that'sextremely problematic and
extremely dangerous.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
Wow, that's interesting.
I've not heard theology ofglory synonymous with power.
How does that theology?
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Misuse power, misunderstandings of power.
The cross for Paul.
The cross is true power.
It's the wisdom and power ofGod.
Yeah, sorry.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
So it's a worldly view of power might makes right.
And how does that move us?
Not just in Luther, butobviously in Paul.
How does that move us, Not justin Luther, but obviously in
Paul?
How does that move us in aworks righteousness direction?
I mean, I'm thinking of youcould go down the charismatic,
maybe, name it, claim it, and ifyou have enough faith in God,
is the genie in the bottlethat's going to give you all of
your wildest dreams, you know.
(06:36):
And and if the cross actuallycomes, it means that you don't.
I'm I'm giving a very generalsummary of some doctrine.
But if, if and when thesuffering of this world comes as
Jesus is very clear, it will Inthis world you will have
suffering and trial.
Take heart, I've overcome theworld.
That's true power.
It's through the cross to theresurrection.
But how does that lead ustoward works righteousness?
(06:57):
That should be guarded against,Dr Gorman.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Yeah, I have to confess, as a Methodist, I'm a
little less concerned aboutworks righteousness than you, as
a Lutheran, might be.
But I think I would phrasemaybe a little bit differently
and say it leads us away fromthe essence of the cross, which
is not only about forgiveness ofsins and it's not only about
(07:23):
suffering.
It's about this life of faithin which the call of God on us
is to repeat what Jesus said tobe in his passion predictions,
where he calls us to be the lastin order to be the first, where
he calls us to be the servantof all, as he is the servant of
(07:43):
all, to welcome the weak and thechildren.
It's just a whole understandingof life as shaped by the
reality of Christ's cross as hisgift to the world.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
I love that and this is I mean, I hear a little bit
of the cost of discipleship inBonhoeffer there have you read
some of him?
Because he saw the church goingdown a way that cheapened the
grace of God, and I think thatis certainly a concern for us
today, as we're hearers, we'realso doers of the word, and I
(08:19):
love what you said.
The cross is both the sourceand the shape then of the
Christian life, is both thesource and the shape then of the
christian life.
There is a hearing, there's abelieving and then there's a
living out of of the faith.
Right, we believe and then thisis the central point of your
book we believe and then webecome more and more like jesus
right, more there, dr gorman.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Yeah, the community.
Well, first of all, tobonhoeffer I, I've read the
discipleship book.
Used to be called the englishtranslation was costcipleship,
and then the actual title issimply Discipleship.
I started reading that andactually read that when I was
probably about 18 years old, andI've read it at least a dozen
times since then.
I've used it as a textbook inclasses, I think it's I tell my
(09:01):
students when you leave seminaryif you haven't read two books,
you shouldn't graduate.
If you haven't read Augustine'sConfessions and you haven't
read Bonhoeffer's Discipleship,you're not theologically trained
.
But anyhow, to Bonhoeffer, yeah, I mean cheap grace, cheap
justification, lots of cheapthings, unfortunately.
(09:22):
Cheap, lots of cheap things,unfortunately.
And in the grand scheme ofthings, we sometimes minimize
the things that are mostimportant and maximize the
things that are important butnot as important as we think
they are.
And Bonhoeffer's understandingof grace is so important in this
day and age, in my opinion.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
Well, could you get more specific there?
What are some of those thingsthat we over-elevate at the
expense of what should beelevated?
Could you go deeper there, DrGorman?
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Sure, I mean.
One thing I think weover-elevate is influence,
whether it's local or national,or even international,
christians have this idea thatone of our primary goals is to
change the world, to haveinfluence in the world by
grabbing hold of power, whetherit's power of the local, city or
(10:17):
the state or whatever, up tothe highest levels, and that
just, unfortunately, oftenbecomes the opposite of
cruciform power.
It's not cross-shaped, it'sabout control, it's about
influence rather than about theinfluence that comes naturally
by means of suffering love, ofself-emptying love, and it also
(10:40):
ends up oftentimes meaning thatwe want to get people in the
door of the church, so to speak,but not out the door, and we
don't have a vision for servingbeyond the immediate needs of
the church, the local ecclesialbody.
(11:00):
So this gets very much into thebook we're going to talk about
Becoming the Gospel Paul,participation and Mission.
What does it mean to be inChrist?
It means to be transformed, butit also means to be on the move
, it means to be out the door,it means to be involved in
people's lives and especially intheir suffering.
So, yeah, I mean there's lotsof things I could say about that
.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
Hey, let's just pause on that, because this is a very
real struggle is probably theright adjective that we're
walking through right now.
In my church body, where doesultimate authority lie?
I would say it lies in Christand then, along with Paul and I
(11:41):
would say with Luther, it lieswith the priesthood of all
believers, the baptized, theloved and sent out into the
world.
Because it's very evident to methat Jesus came to establish a
diffused, decentralized powerstructure.
There's certainly power, but hewas free with giving that.
(12:01):
And when I think power, I thinkauthority, the authority not
only after Jesus ascended, risenand ascended, but in the midst
of his ministry.
I'd love to get your take on thework of Jesus as an example for
us in sending out,decentralizing authority, in the
sending out Luke chapter 9 ofthe 12, the sending out of the
(12:21):
70, luke chapter 10, to doexactly, to say what Jesus had
said and to do what Jesus haddone.
There was this invitation andall authority in heaven and
earth has been given to me.
So in your going I'm giving itout to you, and this led to the
greatest movement of love theworld has ever known.
It wasn't about one.
I'm thinking Jesus when he'stalking it's in Matthew 24, 25,
(12:42):
right when he's talking.
Let no one call you rabbi.
If you have one rabbi or youknow just, we're friends.
Now I've called you, I'velowered myself and we've become
intimate friends and everythingI've heard I've revealed to you,
and so it's very evident.
But the Catholic and I'm not,I'm using Catholic very
generally but the Catholictendency is to move then from a
(13:02):
Pope down to bishops, down toand we have this exact kind of
move that takes place right here.
Some have asked me who givesyou the authority, tim, to raise
up the next generation ofleaders, bivocational,
co-vocational leaders, and it'slike well, I think that's what
Jesus gave to me and to us.
It was a decentralized moverather than a hierarchical move.
(13:24):
Anything more to say there, drGorman?
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Well, I mean there's lots that could be said, but I
think the most important thingto say is I would define
authority again in terms ofservice.
And if Jesus came, as he said,I came not to be served but to
serve and to give my life as aransom for many.
That's the kind of authoritythat he exercised.
That's the kind of authoritythat he exercised and as such,
(13:58):
he calls his disciples to embody, to live out that same kind of
service.
If you will, that is the powerand the authority of himself.
So, yeah, I mean, jesus says inJohn 13, I call you friends.
Jesus says in John 13, I callyou friends.
I'm going to have you know whatI'm up to, to participate in
what I'm doing.
So there's I'm sorry, john 15,in the farewell discourse.
So yeah, I mean I resonate witha lot of what you said.
(14:21):
For sure I find it interesting.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
I think it's Mark 11, 10 into 11.
We're walking through Marktogether, as a faith family,
through Lent, and Jesus is justpredicted I think it's for the
second time that he's going tobe handed over in the hands of
sinful men and then handed overto the Romans, beaten, flogged,
crucified and then rise againfrom the dead.
(14:44):
And it's right on the heels ofthat I think the Bible is kind
of funny that James and Johncome up and say we want to seat
with you when you come into yourkingdom.
They're thinking so small,they're thinking earthly power
and Jesus is the cosmic Christand Jesus is so patient with the
disciples.
Right, it's not for you to knowwho's going to be hung.
(15:05):
And I love in Mark's gospel andthen the height of his power
one was crucified on his rightand on his left and right.
Mark is very specific that theheight of power is the way of
the cross, dr.
But we we want the position andall the accolades, the influence
to use your that come alongwith being influential and, yeah
(15:25):
, it's not the way of Jesus.
Have you thought much todayabout the and this is a little
bit of a tangent but what God isdoing through celebrity pastors
, you know, those that have alarge platform?
I talk about Jesus with a lotof different people in our
church body, outside of ourchurch body, so in a sense I'm
(15:47):
known by some in our church andreally it's not that I'm a
parish pastor here just tryingto be faithful, but I guess
there even is, in the podcastsense, this desire to move
conversations forward.
And, as my grandpa said, watchout, son, that you don't get the
big head, tim, you know,because this is not about you.
My grandpa was a pastor, so ismy dad and, yeah, have you heard
(16:10):
much, or do you have manythoughts about kind of celebrity
pastors here in the?
Speaker 2 (16:14):
US.
Yeah, I mean, the term concernsme, first of all because a
pastor is supposed to be ashepherd right.
That's what the word means.
Is supposed to be a shepherdright, that's what the word
means.
I mean, there's no doubt that,whether it's a theologian or a
biblical scholar or a pastor,our responsibility as teachers,
as leaders, is to have an impacton people.
(16:36):
I mean, that's what we'recalled to do.
The idea of anything that wouldbe largely self-promotion or
aimed at making somebody look,feel and be celebrated, that
gets dangerous, and so I thinkthat the virtue of humility is
(16:57):
critical for anybody who doesthe kind of thing that we're
doing today.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Yeah yeah.
There before the cross of Jesusgo I and so yeah, this isn't
about me or us, it's aboutelevating the name of Jesus.
I got to bring your centralthesis in becoming the gospel.
This is what you say Already.
In the first century, theapostle Paul, one of the
communities he addressed to notmerely believe the gospel though
belief is very important but tobecome the gospel and in so
(17:25):
doing to participate in the verylife of the mission of God.
I agree with thiswholeheartedly, but what are
other ways in which Paul couldbe read, apart from a missional
believing and becoming Like?
It seems so self-evident asI've read Paul, but I guess you
can read him with another lens.
Dr Gorman, could you share that?
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Yeah, I think the major misreading of Paul that
takes place in many Protestantcircles, and has taken place at
least in the last hundred or soyears in the English-speaking
world, is to read Paul primarilyas a kind of legal theologian
(18:04):
that the whole purpose of Jesus'death was to guarantee God's
pronouncement of us as liberatedfrom sin or forgiven of sin, or
a very narrow understanding ofPaul's mission, his own mission
to be the agent of theforgiveness of sins in a very
(18:27):
forensic legal sense, sometimescalled the traditional
Protestant view, or evensometimes called the Lutheran
Protestant view, although Idon't think Luther had that view
at all.
Luther was very much interestedin the relationship between
forgiveness and participation inChrist, justification and
participation.
So, anyhow, that's one majormisreading of Paul, and so, at
(18:50):
the end of the day, if you readPaul that way, the main thing
Paul wants to do is to get theindividual believer to accept
Jesus as his Savior or herSavior and therefore have
forgiveness of sins and haveeternal life.
All of which is true and all ofwhich is about 25% of Paul's
teaching.
So it neglects the other 75%,which is as you read the thesis
(19:16):
of the book.
Is certainly part of it the callfor the church to be a kind of
embodiment of the very gospelthat it has received, and
therefore that gospel has to beunderstood as much more than the
forgiveness of sins.
It's the invasion of God intoour world, the benign invasion
(19:36):
of God into our world to rescuethe world, including all of
creation, from the forces of sinand death that we are subject
to, and to create a new world Ifanyone is in Christ.
New creation.
That doesn't just mean ifanyone is in Christ, sin is
forgiven.
Yes, it means that, but itmeans much more than that.
(19:59):
And also Western Christians andNorth American Christians in
particular tend to read Paulcompletely individualistically.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
There we go.
That's what I was going to ask.
Yes, yes, yes, go on.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
So all you need to do is know a little Greek to know
that Paul almost never addressesindividuals.
He almost always is writing tocommunities, and we need, in
English, a way to say that.
So I will draw on our southernfriends and say, for instance,
y'all, he became what we are,for instance, so that we might
(20:37):
become the righteousness of godin him and not just to, as my
now late friend richard hayesused to say, not just that we
would receive the righteousnessof god, or not just that we
would believe in therighteousness of god or know
about the righteousness of god,but that we would actually be
transformed into thatrighteousness, become the
(20:59):
righteousness of God.
Which was a lectionary reading,by the way, on Sunday, at least
at the LCMS church that wehappen to attend with where we
know some friends.
But it seems to me that if youindividualize the gospel,
over-individualize the gospel.
I don't want to eliminate theindividual, but you
over-individualize the gospel.
(21:20):
For instance, philippians 2,work out your salvation, for it
is God who is at work within you.
I don't know how many timesI've heard people say that.
That's, in essence sayingthat's the story of my life.
I want to work out my salvationand my relationship with God.
Well, okay, there's nothingwrong with that.
(21:41):
It's not what Paul says.
What Paul says is you, as thecommunity in Christ at Philippi,
work out, embody your corporatesalvation in the world, because
God is at work, not inside you,but among you enhuman in Greek
among you.
Of course, god is at workwithin you individually, but
that's not Paul's main point,that's not his point in that
(22:03):
passage.
So what does it mean to become,not to replace the gospel, but
to embody the gospel.
I don't mean that we're thesalvation of the world or we're
the saviors of the world not atall.
But we can't be the church ifwe don't embody the gospel.
I don't mean that we're thesalvation of the world or we're
the saviors of the world not atall.
But we can't be the church ifwe don't embody the gospel.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
Yeah, well, that's so good, Work out your salvation.
He is always speaking outsideof Titus and Timothy Philemon.
I mean these are individualletters to leaders in the church
.
He's always speaking tochurches that have been
established.
I've thought this for manyyears that the Holy Spirit moved
(22:39):
out of Pentecost, obviously inthe book of Acts, and you see
the gospel going from Jerusalemto Rome and then all roads lead
out of Rome.
It's the sending of the churchout of Rome, that's the
missional move in the book ofActs.
And then you've got Paulwriting all of these letters to
churches that have already beenplanted and established, with
leaders that have been raised up.
In Ephesians, chapter four, issuch a live verse.
(23:00):
And then this one office.
We could have some, maybeconversation, I don't think
debate, but apostle, evangelist,prophet, preacher, teacher for
the, equipping, for thereleasing, for the you could
even say sending, empowering ofall of the saints.
This is why leaders exist andit's very evident that Paul had
that anticipatory participation.
That's your language, I haveparticipated in it or I have
(23:24):
been grafted in.
You know, I have been crucifiedwith Christ and then we have
been collectively changed andman, this is where the
sacraments kind of come in soheavily.
I have been baptized, I've beenwashed, I've been put to death
so that the new man or woman inme may be raised up.
But then I'm set out with acommon confession, a common
(23:46):
union.
That's the catalytic impact ofthe Lord's Supper.
It's a common union as we moveout in mission to make Jesus
known sins forgiven, as we moveout in mission to make Jesus
known sins forgiven.
And we're a new type of people,a new type of image bearers,
with the cross being what goesever, ever before us.
That's the only way that I canread the Apostle Paul, because
we have some debates in ourcircles that pit confessional
(24:09):
Lutherans versus missionalLutherans, and it's two sides of
the same coin.
We're a confessing people, abelieving a hearing and
believing people, and then we'rea doing people, who live it out
, not because of it.
I love how you even I'm not asconcerned about works,
righteousness, and if I've beenput to death, if we've been put
to death because of therighteousness that's found in
Christ, because of the cross ofJesus Christ, centered in our
(24:32):
new identity as baptizedchildren of God.
There's no room for works here.
It just is what it is.
We're living out what willultimately be on the last day
when Jesus returns to make allthings new and we live in a
perfect, right relationship withGod, self, others and the rest
of creation.
But that new life is not justthen and there.
It's here and now.
The kingdom of heaven, becauseof the inbreaking of Jesus and
(24:55):
then the sending of the HolySpirit, is here and now, not
just then and there.
Say more about anticipatoryparticipation, dr Gorman.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
I was going to say.
That's exactly what I mean bythe term anticipatory
participation.
I mean if we believe that whatGod has done in Christ is to
inaugurate the new creation ofthe prophets promised, the
kingdom of God, the new creationthese are not synonymous, but
they're overlapping terms If webelieve that God has really done
(25:22):
that and that that new creationpoints forward to the time when
Shalom, the peace of theprophets promised, will cover
the earth and the justice of Godwill cover the earth, cover the
earth and the justice of Godwill cover the earth and God
will reign in that veryself-giving sense, if you will,
the canonic sense of alwaysgiving his love in creation and
(25:43):
redemption and in theeschatological reality.
This is God's nature toself-give.
And now, in anticipation ofthat, the church becomes, is
called to become, a kind ofmodel of that, a 25-cent word,
an instantiation, if you will, akind of emblem, an icon of what
(26:07):
is to come, never perfectly.
In Wesleyan and Methodistcircles we have a saying moving
on to perfection.
It doesn't mean we'll ever,either individually or
corporately, arrive there, butour goal is to know Christ and
to, as Paul says in Philippians3, to grab hold of the one who
grabbed hold of me and of us.
(26:28):
And what's his purpose?
His purpose is to be creatingthese communities that have a
major impact on their worlds,not because they're grabbing for
power, but because they'reserving, they're doing good.
So you know, I joked a littlebit about not being as concerned
(26:49):
about works.
Righteousness no Christianofficially is Pelagian.
Catholics sometimes get accusedof being Pelagian.
They're not, and I'm notCatholic, but I've read the
Catholic catechism.
I know grace precedes works,but the point is that Jesus said
himself the greatestcommandments are to love God and
(27:11):
love neighbor.
You can't love your neighborwithout doing something.
It's not some kind of head trip, and if you want to call that
works in the, of course it'sworks, it's activity, it's
mission.
But to claim you're the churchand not be involved in the
service of other people is aboutas oxymoronic as it comes.
(27:32):
Uh, it makes absolutely nosense and also it completely
disintegrates the tie betweenChristianity and Judaism.
You can't read the OldTestament and think, oh, the
whole purpose of life is tobelieve something.
The purpose of life is to loveGod and love your neighbor,
(27:53):
including the stranger,including the migrant, including
the enemy, even according toJesus.
So I mean you're getting mestarted on my soapbox, tim so.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
No, it's good, Dr Gorman, I really appreciate it.
I mean, we're confessing peoplein our gatherings.
We have which you were justthere a confession and
absolution, sometimes a slightlymore formal.
I, a poor, miserable sinner,sinner, confessing you all my
sins and iniquities, which whichI've ever offended you and
justly deserve your temporal andeternal punishment.
I'm sorry for them.
Sincerely repent of them and Ipray you have your boundless
(28:24):
mercy and grace for the sake ofyour son, jesus Christ.
You would have mercy upon uponme, and there's no shortage of
things I love thinking about,not just sins of commission, but
sins of omission.
So there's no grounds forself-justification, because
there's always more, of course,right, but it's in Christ.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
It has nothing to do with with earning salvation or
earning justification.
No, it's living out what you'vebeen given.
John Barclay, very significantNew Testament scholar in Great
Britain, has a couple of books,one called Paul and the Power of
Grace, the other one calledPaul and the Gift.
His basic argument is in theancient world, kairos, grace,
(29:07):
which also meant gift, a gift.
In the ancient world and Ithink in many ways in many
cultures, including our ownancient world, and I think in
many ways in many cultures,including our own, when you give
somebody a gift there's anexpectation of reciprocity.
And when Paul uses the wordgift or grace to talk about the
action of God, he says in verypoignant, I think very good
(29:29):
language, barclay says says thegrace of God is unconditional,
but not unconditioned.
It's unconditional, in otherwords, it's when we're enemies
Christ died for us right.
When we're sinners, god's graceis unconditioned.
You can't earn it.
No, nothing makes it merited ordeserved.
(29:51):
But because it's a gift, it's adivine gift it comes with an
obligation attached.
The first obligation isgratitude.
Charis, gratitude, give thanksto God, is the same word as
grace.
We even say it today.
I'm going to say grace beforemy meal, right, it's the same
language in the ancient Greekspeaking world.
(30:12):
And then also, when we thinkabout grace as something that
includes reciprocity, we thinkabout the many times in which in
the Bible, when someone isforgiven, they don't go back to
their old way of life, they'recalled to move on.
(30:35):
The woman caught in adultery Goand sin no more.
The woman at the well, whateverher condition is, she bore
witness to the community.
She became an apostolic witness, if you will.
So there's no dichotomy betweenconfession in the general sense
(30:56):
or confession of sin in thenarrow sense, and the call to do
.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
God's work in the world.
Well, hey, I think one of thebest places we find Paul gosh
there are so many places, but wefind Paul giving us a.
There were so many places, butwe find Paul giving us a living
example of what it looks like tolove unconditionally and then
be conditioned to love is in themarriage relationship in
Ephesians 5, 22 to 33.
(31:23):
Just as Christ has loved thechurch, so husbands love your
wives.
As the church submits to Christ, so wives see their husbands as
the leader in the home.
Here's the way, husband, you'regoing to love your wife, not
taking the powerful, pridefulposition, but humbling yourself
even to the point of death.
And then Paul says this is thismystery of the union between
(31:46):
the embodiment of Christ, thecrucified and risen one, and
then living within us as thechurch, is a divine mystery.
And then I love how he ends.
I love how he ends in verse 33.
However, let's get practicalhere.
Let the husband love his wifeand the wife respect her husband
.
It moves, it flows and it getslived out.
(32:06):
It'd be weird for me, dr, howlong have you been married,
brother?
Long time, long time.
Okay, it flows and it getslived out.
It'd be weird for me, dr?
How long have you been married,brother?
I didn't even talk.
Long time, long time.
Ok, I'm 20 years, right?
It'd be strange for me to say Ilove you and then I do, which I
do unconditionally to my wife,alexa, but then do very little
to display that love by takingcare of.
I just washed some dishes lastnight, dr Gorman I of.
(32:33):
I just washed some dishes lastnight, dr Gorman.
I was doing my husbandly duty,putting the kids to bed, all
those types of things, right?
It'd be very strange for me tohave that identity and then not
live in that identity.
Yeah, so any more about thehusband and wife kind of model
that Paul gives.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
I think you've you've exhausted, you've said plenty
on that, I guess.
Maybe just to point out, evenin the, even in the marriage
relationship, it's within theChristian household of mutual
submission Verse 21.
Yeah, so yeah, I've beenmarried.
I mean I'm both proud and alittle embarrassed to admit I've
(33:04):
been married for almost 50years.
We got married very young.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
Very cool, very cool.
I'm 30 years behind you, sowe'll get there one day at a
time, right, brother?
Well, I love this way ofunderstanding the movement of
the church in witness andmission using centripetal and
centrifugal action.
Would you talk about that alittle bit, dr Gorman?
Speaker 2 (33:26):
Sure.
So out of the vocabulary ofphysics you have this idea that
something can move sort of in onitself from the out toward a
center, and that's centripetal.
And then you have movement fromthe center out to the outer
(33:47):
exteriors if you centrifugal,two different kinds of forces
and missiologists.
For a long time, somemissiologists at least have used
that language to say that thepurposes of god, the mission of
god, is both of those things.
That is to say, the church asgod's agent definitely needs to
move toward a center, to tocreate a community and to be
(34:09):
caring for that community, to be.
That's part of God's mission.
To create a holy communitythat's cared for, that's loved,
that is taking care of oneanother, loving one another,
serving one another, cryingtogether, sharing joys together.
All those kinds of that's partof the mission of God.
The mission of God is not simplygoing out, in other words.
(34:32):
So the centripetal mission ofGod is to pull people in to this
circle and then at the sametime, for God's mission to wind
its way out and for the churchto be called out of that central
spot and taken out into theworld, called out of that
(34:52):
central spot and taken out intothe world.
So I think it's a lovely way ofusing the metaphor of
centripetal and centrifugalforce as a unity, and that God
is interested in both.
So yes, does God want to?
So a confessing, holy forgivenpeople.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
Made holy by God.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
Is that the end?
No, that's the beginning.
So that group of people is sentout into the world.
Does that mean everybodybecomes an evangelist or a
missionary in some differentculture?
No, that's not the case at all.
But I think we misread Paul ifwe think that the people who he
(35:37):
was pastoring by letter weresimply gathering together on
Sunday night to celebrate theLord's Supper and then going
home and nobody knew anythingabout it.
Their neighbors, their friends,their business associates knew
anything about it.
Their neighbors, their friends,their business associates.
Why in the world was Paul andwere other early Christians
(35:57):
imprisoned?
Why were those who were notimprisoned, like in Philippi,
thessaloniki, rome perhaps, andother places to which Paul
writes, why does he eitheraddress them as sharing in his
persecution or in his sufferingsif they weren't doing something
that got people annoyed?
That's it.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
Yeah, what did they do that got people annoyed, dr
Gorman.
I mean, you talk about this.
They made declarativeconfessional statements, and I
think the key one, caesar well,no, I don't know.
No, it's Jesus is Lord, there'sone Lord.
It's great.
I mean, they were very, verybold.
Talk about their boldness inconfession, dr Gorman.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
Yeah, I mean, if we want to be confessing Christians
letitely with people who thinkCaesar is Lord or some specific
deity or many different deitiesare Lords or updated to our own
(36:58):
context, if you say somethingthat sounds like it could
challenge political authority oryou're not necessarily going to
be well-received and that canhave all kinds of consequences.
We believe most scholarsbelieve that in the early church
(37:22):
some Christians lost theirbusiness ties their business.
Let's say they had a shop andsomebody finds out that they're
going off to the Christianmeeting.
And well, are you still goingto participate in our activities
where we we offer incense tothe emperor or we have a
sacrifice to the God who is thepatron, god of our particular
(37:45):
profession and I say I'm sorry,I only worship Jesus as Lord.
Now, well, if that's the case,that puts our business and our
city in danger and we're notgoing to kill you, but we're not
going to do business with youuntil maybe somebody gets mad
enough where they actually dothreaten you and maybe even
carry that out.
(38:06):
In Hebrews it says you've notyet suffered to the shedding of
blood, but if you haven't andit's brought up, that means it
must be at least a possiblepossibility.
I mean, I think we're unawareof the way in which the gospel,
(38:26):
as Kevin Rogue, a very fine NewTestament scholar at Duke
Divinity School, puts it.
Revolution, no, no.
New culture, yes, and that newculture that the church embodies
can be not deliberately, but itcan be threatening, it can be
perceived as a threat.
And is it a threat?
(38:47):
Well, yeah, I mean we do.
At least we should do economicsdifferently, we should do all
kinds of things differently fromour host culture.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
So, yeah, no, that's really good.
I loved your section on thethree theological graces and how
Paul orders them in what wethink is his oldest book or his
first book.
1 Thessalonians as faith is hisoldest book or his first book.
1 Thessalonians as faith, loveand hope.
Most of the time we look at 1Corinthians 13, faith, hope and
love but most of the time heorders them faith, love and hope
(39:18):
.
Why are those the threetheological graces and why is
that order important in Paul'swritings, dr Gordon?
Speaker 2 (39:26):
Well, in 1 Thessalonians there is a strong
emphasis on hope and he actuallyhas that order twice at the
beginning of the letter, inchapter one at the kind of major
components of becoming abeliever in Christ, a believer
in the gospel.
And yet they sufferedpersecution.
(40:01):
Paul was so worried about themthat he sent Timothy to check
out if they had survived, ifthey had retained their faith,
not their sorry, not theirLutheran confession, but their
faithfulness, had they beenfaithful in spite of persecution
.
Paul prayed, paul worried andPaul finally sent Timothy.
(40:23):
And so I think he deliberatelyputs the order of faith, love
and hope because he wants thecommunity that is threatened or
persecuted to know that, nomatter what happens to them,
they have the hope of Christ'sreturn and of all that that
implies for resurrection and foreternal life and for security
and all those kinds of things.
But there's even hope in thepresent.
(40:45):
So I would say that Paul altersthe order depending on what
he's trying to emphasize.
He emphasizes hope in 1Thessalonians, he emphasizes
love in 1 Corinthians, becauseit seems to be a rather unloving
community and there may betimes.
Maybe in our context, maybewe're good at loving, maybe
(41:08):
we're good at hope, maybe we'regood at loving, maybe we're good
at hope, maybe we're not veryfaithful.
So maybe in our context, paulwould say I give you these three
virtues of missional practiceslove, hope and faithfulness and
maybe emphasize the faithfulness.
I haven't ever said that outloud before, but now that I say
it I like it.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
Yeah, yeah, no, I think that's, I think that's
true Romans.
You did, I mean a hugecommentary on Romans.
If you were to make a case thatPaul was, he said a lot in
Romans.
I mean it's this kind of magnumopus, right Theological, very,
very deep.
But would you do you think hegave extra emphasis to faith,
love or hope, if there's one ofthose, do you think he had extra
(41:48):
emphasis in romans in yourscholarly work?
What do you think it would be?
Speaker 2 (41:51):
well, that's an interesting question.
Um, in the commentary I say ifjohn is the gospel of life,
romans is the epistle of life.
Um, I, I guess I would if I hadto answer that.
It seems to me all three ofthem are pretty balanced in that
letter.
But I guess I would emphasize,especially for those of us who
(42:14):
are used to reading Romans as atheological document, to
remember that the letter movesto very practical conclusions In
chapter 14 and 15, he wants tomake sure that the weak are
taken care of.
15, he wants to make sure thatthe weak are taken care of and
he wants to make sure,throughout chapters 12 and 13
and 14 and 15, that thecommunity is a thriving
(42:36):
community, life together.
Again going back to Bonhoeffer,you know that's what life's.
The gospel is not just about Godsaving us from our sin.
The gospel is about lifetogether 12, 13, 14, 15, even 16
.
Speaker 1 (42:51):
Well, I think initially the Lutheran would
probably say it was about faith,but to say, the summary of the
law or the teaching of Christ islife together, which I would
make synonymous with love, thelove of God that flows from the
cross.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
There's a lot of love in chapters 12 to 15 for sure,
certainly, and there's I mean inmy commentary I suggest that
for paul um I I call hope thefuture tense of faith, the
future tense of faith.
There's a lot of connectionbetween faith and hope,
especially in romans 4 aboutabraham.
You know, uh, what looks like ahopeless situation.
(43:29):
He exercises hope.
So, yeah, there's lots to besaid about that.
Speaker 1 (43:34):
This has been fun.
Hey, this has been so fun.
I'm really, really grateful forto God for making creating
Reverend.
Dr Michael Gorman, brother,you're a blessing.
Let's close with the topic ofpeace.
We live in a very, I could say,peaceless world.
Polarization was the word ofactually 2024.
(43:56):
If there was one word that Ithink one of the most searched
words via Google waspolarization.
And so we need the peace andthe unity that flows from the
cross and empty tomb of JesusChrist.
How should a Paulineunderstanding of peace change
the mission of the local church,dr Gorman?
Speaker 2 (44:14):
Yeah Well, at the heart of Paul's understanding of
peace is, first of all, theprophetic promise that God's
will is for the wolf and thelamb to lie down together, or
the lion and the lamb to liedown together, that people who
are at odds with one anotherwill be reconciled together.
So I remember years ago afriend of mine is now a pastor,
(44:37):
actually in the Methodist Church, but at the time he was just a
member of our congregation andthe kids on his kid's school bus
were always fighting.
So he volunteered to be a busrider every morning and every
afternoon and he could.
He had a nighttime job.
He would ride on the bus tomake sure the kids didn't get
into fights.
I mean, and he did thatdeliberately to be a peacemaker.
(45:01):
At the time he was studying thisis interesting.
He was studying internationalrelations and peacemaking
international relations andpeacemaking at American
University in Washington.
So he was working as a securityguard at night so he could do
his reading at night, takeclasses during the day and in
the morning and afternoon, rideon his kid's school bus.
(45:22):
He's a really cool guy, by theway, and just the other day he
was telling me about trying tostart this new movement toward
peace in our polarized society,in the local church.
So I mean, that's one person,but it seems to me we have
plenty of opportunities in ourlocal congregations and our
(45:42):
local communities to try tocreate places of understanding,
not necessarily acceptance.
We have to agree to disagree,but we have to do it civilly and
part of the Christian missionis to say, even within the
church we have so muchpolarization in our own
congregations, how do we live ina way that exemplifies the fact
(46:04):
that, as Paul says in Ephesians, he broke down the wall between
Gentile and Jew, he broke downthe wall between black and white
, he broke down the wall betweenMale and female.
You fill in the blank in our owncontext.
So many binaries, the citizenand the immigrant In this
(46:28):
country.
Unless you're Native American,we're all immigrants, so lots of
ways that we can think aboutpeacemaking.
Speaker 1 (46:36):
So yeah, yeah, well, that's really good we get to
live with anticipatoryparticipation.
That's what's going to stickwith me, with a heart filled
with faith and love and hope,and hands that are quick to make
way for peace, in anticipationof the Prince of Peace
descending on that last day tomake all things new.
(46:58):
Dr Gorman, if people want toconnect with you, brother, how
can they do so In your work?
But come in the gospel, checkit out, man.
He's got so many other works.
I'm sure you can find them allon Amazon or wherever right.
Speaker 2 (47:08):
Yeah, they're on Amazon and other booksellers.
If somebody wants to contact medirectly, they can look at St
Mary's Seminary and Universityin Baltimore, maryland, and find
my email address there.
That's probably the easiest.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
Hey, I had a lot of fun with you.
This is the Tim Allman Podcast.
Please like, subscribe, commentwherever it is you take in
these podcasts.
This is a podcast of the UniteLeadership Collective.
Yes, we're a part of theLutheran Church Missouri Synod,
but we believe we're a part ofthe church triumphant, the
church that goes down throughthe ages.
Lutherans have actually, downthrough the ages, been deeply
(47:41):
committed to ecumenicalconversation and I pray that
still continues today, for wehave a lot to learn.
We've been justified by faithin Jesus Christ alone and
therefore sent out with amessage of.
You can be justified too bygrace, through faith, and come
into this brand new life, whichincludes a head that's changed,
a heart, most especially, thathas been changed and hands and
(48:05):
feet that are ready to bring themessage of Jesus and the words
of Jesus into a dark and dyingworld.
It's a good day.
Go make it a great day.
I'm really grateful for you, drGorman, thank you for your time
.
Speaker 2 (48:14):
Thank you Tim.
Welcome to the Tim Allman Podcast.
It's a beautiful day to bealive.
Pray the joy of the crucifiedand risen Jesus is your strength
.
I've been looking forward tothis conversation for so long.
About six months ago I was toldby Dr Jeff Cloa to check out
the book Becoming the GospelPaul, participation and Mission,
and I just I looked up on theinternet and you can find all
(00:27):
sorts of people on the internetand I was like I wonder if Dr
Michael Gorman would be open tocoming on for a chat.
And you, graciously, dr Gorman,I think within a day or two,
got back to me and said yeah,let's talk about Jesus together.
So let me tell you about him,if you've not heard of Dr Gorman
.
He holds the Raymond E BrownChair of Biblical Studies and
Theology at St Mary's Seminary,which he just told me is the
(00:49):
oldest Catholic seminary in theUnited States, and it also has
another seminary that runs outof it, at the very same time
serving the wider church.
It's an ecumenical seminary.
We can maybe start with somequestions there Connected.
He lives outside of Baltimore,maryland Now.
He has written so many books.
I'm going to give you a numberof them here Cruciformity,
(01:10):
paul's narrative of the crossand inhabiting the cruciform God
, both companion books.
And inhabiting the cruciformGod is his second book, and then
this companion book, becomingthe Gospel.
It came out about a decade ago.
He's right in the commentaryspace right now.
His newest book just came out amonth or so ago, commentary on
1 Corinthians.
(01:31):
He had a Romans commentaryconnected to Erdman's, I believe
, and Baker books that came out.
A Romans commentary came out in2022, and he's now working on
Philippians.
So, reverend Dr Michael Gorman,how are you doing, brother?
Thank you for your generosityof time.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Thank you, tim, for having me and for that kind
introduction.
It's great to meet you and tohave a chance to talk with you,
so thanks for the invitation.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Well, we're going to have a great time.
And you just told me that youhave some Lutheran background.
Your kids went to a Lutherangrade school and even this last
week you went and worshiped atone of our LCMS churches in your
community.
And if you know anything aboutwe as Lutherans, well, one we
love Jesus, we love grace, welove the mercy of God flowing
(02:12):
from the cross, but we have astrong theology of the cross and
I was fascinated as your book.
You have a very strong theologyof the cross.
It sounds a bit like MartinLuther.
Have a very strong theology ofthe cross.
It sounds a bit like MartinLuther.
Just curious, how much ofLuther have you read?
Speaker 2 (02:32):
and kind of maybe knowingly or unknowingly-
incorporated into some of yourwritings, dr Gorman.
Yeah Well, again thanks, tim.
My background with the Lutheranchurch is primarily through a
school that our kids went to.
My wife actually went to aLutheran church when she was
young.
My familiarity with the LCMS isthrough not through churches
per se in my own experience, butof course I read Luther.
(02:55):
When I was in seminary.
I went to Princeton TheologicalSeminary and we read a lot of
Reformation texts, includingCalvin, of course, and Luther.
I think Luther probably got intome accidentally, if you will,
it wasn't deliberately, butmaybe what Luther and I have in
common is and the reason we havethe cross in common is because
I think we were both trying toread Paul on Paul's own terms,
(03:17):
and sometimes Luther getsaccused of reading Paul
completely in a 16th centurycontext, with a 16th century
lens, and he doesn't reallyunderstand Paul per se.
I don't buy that.
There might be some truth tothat, but I mean, who reads Paul
perfectly?
And I read Paul.
I deliberately read Paul from a21st century perspective as
(03:38):
well as a first century.
So I think it's our commoninterest in Christ crucified,
and especially for me, overagainst the theology of glory,
which of course Luther alsoopposed and I think in our
political context it's onethat's very concerning to me.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Well, let's pause there for a bit.
You had me at theology of thecross and theology of glory for
a bit.
You had me at theology of thecross and theology of glory.
For those who are unfamiliarmaybe with those terms, would
you define first this theologyof the cross over and against
theology of glory.
Dr Gorman, in yourunderstanding, yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
So theology of the cross from my point of view is
that it takes Paul veryseriously when he says I decided
to know nothing among youexcept Jesus Christ, that is,
jesus Christ crucified.
Of course he wouldn't even careabout the crucified Jesus if he
wasn't also the resurrectedJesus.
So he's not eliminated in theresurrection.
But he's saying that, as theGerman theologian Ernst Casemann
(04:34):
said last century, that thecross is the signature of the
risen one, so Jesus remains thecrucified Messiah, even as the
exalted Lord.
And we see that in John 20,when he's got the marks in his
hands and his sign and so forth.
So but for me the theology ofthe cross means that the cross
is central, not only in terms ofthe source of our salvation,
(04:56):
but also the very shape of oursalvation, or the source of our
spirituality, the source of ourspirituality and the shape of
our spirituality.
So that's why I use the termcruciform and cruciformity.
Sometimes I think, and maybeeven in some Lutheran circles,
there's so much emphasis on thecross as the place where we get
(05:18):
forgiveness of sins.
Amen, I don't want to disputethat.
But let's move on and see whatit means to live within the
realm of the crucified Messiahand his sort of canonic,
self-emptying, self-giving love.
The theology of power, on theother hand, represents only an
(05:38):
understanding of Jesus as theresurrected one who's come in
glory and who wants to exercisepower, political and otherwise,
without any reference to thecross.
So it leaves the cross in thedust, and I think Luther was
absolutely right to say that'sextremely problematic and
extremely dangerous.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
Wow, that's interesting.
I've not heard theology ofglory synonymous with power.
How does that theology?
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Misuse power, misunderstandings of power.
The cross for Paul.
The cross is true power.
It's the wisdom and power ofGod.
Yeah, sorry.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
So it's a worldly view of power might makes right.
And how does that move us?
Not just in Luther, butobviously in Paul.
How does that move us, Not justin Luther, but obviously in
Paul?
How does that move us in aworks righteousness direction?
I mean, I'm thinking of youcould go down the charismatic,
maybe, name it, claim it, and ifyou have enough faith in God,
is the genie in the bottlethat's going to give you all of
your wildest dreams, you know.
(06:36):
And and if the cross actuallycomes, it means that you don't.
I'm I'm giving a very generalsummary of some doctrine.
But if, if and when thesuffering of this world comes as
Jesus is very clear, it will Inthis world you will have
suffering and trial.
Take heart, I've overcome theworld.
That's true power.
It's through the cross to theresurrection.
But how does that lead ustoward works righteousness?
(06:57):
That should be guarded against,Dr Gorman.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Yeah, I have to confess, as a Methodist, I'm a
little less concerned aboutworks righteousness than you, as
a Lutheran, might be.
But I think I would phrasemaybe a little bit differently
and say it leads us away fromthe essence of the cross, which
is not only about forgiveness ofsins and it's not only about
(07:23):
suffering.
It's about this life of faithin which the call of God on us
is to repeat what Jesus said tobe in his passion predictions,
where he calls us to be the lastin order to be the first, where
he calls us to be the servantof all, as he is the servant of
(07:43):
all, to welcome the weak and thechildren.
It's just a whole understandingof life as shaped by the
reality of Christ's cross as hisgift to the world.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
I love that and this is I mean, I hear a little bit
of the cost of discipleship inBonhoeffer there have you read
some of him?
Because he saw the church goingdown a way that cheapened the
grace of God, and I think thatis certainly a concern for us
today, as we're hearers, we'realso doers of the word, and I
(08:19):
love what you said.
The cross is both the sourceand the shape then of the
Christian life, is both thesource and the shape then of the
christian life.
There is a hearing, there's abelieving and then there's a
living out of of the faith.
Right, we believe and then thisis the central point of your
book we believe and then webecome more and more like jesus
right, more there, dr gorman.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Yeah, the community.
Well, first of all, tobonhoeffer I, I've read the
discipleship book.
Used to be called the englishtranslation was costcipleship,
and then the actual title issimply Discipleship.
I started reading that andactually read that when I was
probably about 18 years old, andI've read it at least a dozen
times since then.
I've used it as a textbook inclasses, I think it's I tell my
(09:01):
students when you leave seminaryif you haven't read two books,
you shouldn't graduate.
If you haven't read Augustine'sConfessions and you haven't
read Bonhoeffer's Discipleship,you're not theologically trained
.
But anyhow, to Bonhoeffer, yeah, I mean cheap grace, cheap
justification, lots of cheapthings, unfortunately.
(09:22):
Cheap, lots of cheap things,unfortunately.
And in the grand scheme ofthings, we sometimes minimize
the things that are mostimportant and maximize the
things that are important butnot as important as we think
they are.
And Bonhoeffer's understandingof grace is so important in this
day and age, in my opinion.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
Well, could you get more specific there?
What are some of those thingsthat we over-elevate at the
expense of what should beelevated?
Could you go deeper there, DrGorman?
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Sure, I mean.
One thing I think weover-elevate is influence,
whether it's local or national,or even international,
christians have this idea thatone of our primary goals is to
change the world, to haveinfluence in the world by
grabbing hold of power, whetherit's power of the local, city or
(10:17):
the state or whatever, up tothe highest levels, and that
just, unfortunately, oftenbecomes the opposite of
cruciform power.
It's not cross-shaped, it'sabout control, it's about
influence rather than about theinfluence that comes naturally
by means of suffering love, ofself-emptying love, and it also
(10:40):
ends up oftentimes meaning thatwe want to get people in the
door of the church, so to speak,but not out the door, and we
don't have a vision for servingbeyond the immediate needs of
the church, the local ecclesialbody.
(11:00):
So this gets very much into thebook we're going to talk about
Becoming the Gospel Paul,participation and Mission.
What does it mean to be inChrist?
It means to be transformed, butit also means to be on the move
, it means to be out the door,it means to be involved in
people's lives and especially intheir suffering.
So, yeah, I mean there's lotsof things I could say about that
.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
Hey, let's just pause on that, because this is a very
real struggle is probably theright adjective that we're
walking through right now.
In my church body, where doesultimate authority lie?
I would say it lies in Christand then, along with Paul and I
(11:41):
would say with Luther, it lieswith the priesthood of all
believers, the baptized, theloved and sent out into the
world.
Because it's very evident to methat Jesus came to establish a
diffused, decentralized powerstructure.
There's certainly power, but hewas free with giving that.
(12:01):
And when I think power, I thinkauthority, the authority not
only after Jesus ascended, risenand ascended, but in the midst
of his ministry.
I'd love to get your take on thework of Jesus as an example for
us in sending out,decentralizing authority, in the
sending out Luke chapter 9 ofthe 12, the sending out of the
(12:21):
70, luke chapter 10, to doexactly, to say what Jesus had
said and to do what Jesus haddone.
There was this invitation andall authority in heaven and
earth has been given to me.
So in your going I'm giving itout to you, and this led to the
greatest movement of love theworld has ever known.
It wasn't about one.
I'm thinking Jesus when he'stalking it's in Matthew 24, 25,
(12:42):
right when he's talking.
Let no one call you rabbi.
If you have one rabbi or youknow just, we're friends.
Now I've called you, I'velowered myself and we've become
intimate friends and everythingI've heard I've revealed to you,
and so it's very evident.
But the Catholic and I'm not,I'm using Catholic very
generally but the Catholictendency is to move then from a
(13:02):
Pope down to bishops, down toand we have this exact kind of
move that takes place right here.
Some have asked me who givesyou the authority, tim, to raise
up the next generation ofleaders, bivocational,
co-vocational leaders, and it'slike well, I think that's what
Jesus gave to me and to us.
It was a decentralized moverather than a hierarchical move.
(13:24):
Anything more to say there, drGorman?
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Well, I mean there's lots that could be said, but I
think the most important thingto say is I would define
authority again in terms ofservice.
And if Jesus came, as he said,I came not to be served but to
serve and to give my life as aransom for many.
That's the kind of authoritythat he exercised.
That's the kind of authoritythat he exercised and as such,
(13:58):
he calls his disciples to embody, to live out that same kind of
service.
If you will, that is the powerand the authority of himself.
So, yeah, I mean, jesus says inJohn 13, I call you friends.
Jesus says in John 13, I callyou friends.
I'm going to have you know whatI'm up to, to participate in
what I'm doing.
So there's I'm sorry, john 15,in the farewell discourse.
So yeah, I mean I resonate witha lot of what you said.
(14:21):
For sure I find it interesting.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
I think it's Mark 11, 10 into 11.
We're walking through Marktogether, as a faith family,
through Lent, and Jesus is justpredicted I think it's for the
second time that he's going tobe handed over in the hands of
sinful men and then handed overto the Romans, beaten, flogged,
crucified and then rise againfrom the dead.
(14:44):
And it's right on the heels ofthat I think the Bible is kind
of funny that James and Johncome up and say we want to seat
with you when you come into yourkingdom.
They're thinking so small,they're thinking earthly power
and Jesus is the cosmic Christand Jesus is so patient with the
disciples.
Right, it's not for you to knowwho's going to be hung.
(15:05):
And I love in Mark's gospel andthen the height of his power
one was crucified on his rightand on his left and right.
Mark is very specific that theheight of power is the way of
the cross, dr.
But we we want the position andall the accolades, the influence
to use your that come alongwith being influential and, yeah
(15:25):
, it's not the way of Jesus.
Have you thought much todayabout the and this is a little
bit of a tangent but what God isdoing through celebrity pastors
, you know, those that have alarge platform?
I talk about Jesus with a lotof different people in our
church body, outside of ourchurch body, so in a sense I'm
(15:47):
known by some in our church andreally it's not that I'm a
parish pastor here just tryingto be faithful, but I guess
there even is, in the podcastsense, this desire to move
conversations forward.
And, as my grandpa said, watchout, son, that you don't get the
big head, tim, you know,because this is not about you.
My grandpa was a pastor, so ismy dad and, yeah, have you heard
(16:10):
much, or do you have manythoughts about kind of celebrity
pastors here in the?
Speaker 2 (16:14):
US.
Yeah, I mean, the term concernsme, first of all because a
pastor is supposed to be ashepherd right.
That's what the word means.
Is supposed to be a shepherdright, that's what the word
means.
I mean, there's no doubt that,whether it's a theologian or a
biblical scholar or a pastor,our responsibility as teachers,
as leaders, is to have an impacton people.
(16:36):
I mean, that's what we'recalled to do.
The idea of anything that wouldbe largely self-promotion or
aimed at making somebody look,feel and be celebrated, that
gets dangerous, and so I thinkthat the virtue of humility is
(16:57):
critical for anybody who doesthe kind of thing that we're
doing today.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Yeah yeah.
There before the cross of Jesusgo I and so yeah, this isn't
about me or us, it's aboutelevating the name of Jesus.
I got to bring your centralthesis in becoming the gospel.
This is what you say Already.
In the first century, theapostle Paul, one of the
communities he addressed to notmerely believe the gospel though
belief is very important but tobecome the gospel and in so
(17:25):
doing to participate in the verylife of the mission of God.
I agree with thiswholeheartedly, but what are
other ways in which Paul couldbe read, apart from a missional
believing and becoming Like?
It seems so self-evident asI've read Paul, but I guess you
can read him with another lens.
Dr Gorman, could you share that?
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Yeah, I think the major misreading of Paul that
takes place in many Protestantcircles, and has taken place at
least in the last hundred or soyears in the English-speaking
world, is to read Paul primarilyas a kind of legal theologian
(18:04):
that the whole purpose of Jesus'death was to guarantee God's
pronouncement of us as liberatedfrom sin or forgiven of sin, or
a very narrow understanding ofPaul's mission, his own mission
to be the agent of theforgiveness of sins in a very
(18:27):
forensic legal sense, sometimescalled the traditional
Protestant view, or evensometimes called the Lutheran
Protestant view, although Idon't think Luther had that view
at all.
Luther was very much interestedin the relationship between
forgiveness and participation inChrist, justification and
participation.
So, anyhow, that's one majormisreading of Paul, and so, at
(18:50):
the end of the day, if you readPaul that way, the main thing
Paul wants to do is to get theindividual believer to accept
Jesus as his Savior or herSavior and therefore have
forgiveness of sins and haveeternal life.
All of which is true and all ofwhich is about 25% of Paul's
teaching.
So it neglects the other 75%,which is as you read the thesis
(19:16):
of the book.
Is certainly part of it the callfor the church to be a kind of
embodiment of the very gospelthat it has received, and
therefore that gospel has to beunderstood as much more than the
forgiveness of sins.
It's the invasion of God intoour world, the benign invasion
(19:36):
of God into our world to rescuethe world, including all of
creation, from the forces of sinand death that we are subject
to, and to create a new world Ifanyone is in Christ.
New creation.
That doesn't just mean ifanyone is in Christ, sin is
forgiven.
Yes, it means that, but itmeans much more than that.
(19:59):
And also Western Christians andNorth American Christians in
particular tend to read Paulcompletely individualistically.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
There we go.
That's what I was going to ask.
Yes, yes, yes, go on.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
So all you need to do is know a little Greek to know
that Paul almost never addressesindividuals.
He almost always is writing tocommunities, and we need, in
English, a way to say that.
So I will draw on our southernfriends and say, for instance,
y'all, he became what we are,for instance, so that we might
(20:37):
become the righteousness of godin him and not just to, as my
now late friend richard hayesused to say, not just that we
would receive the righteousnessof god, or not just that we
would believe in therighteousness of god or know
about the righteousness of god,but that we would actually be
transformed into thatrighteousness, become the
(20:59):
righteousness of God.
Which was a lectionary reading,by the way, on Sunday, at least
at the LCMS church that wehappen to attend with where we
know some friends.
But it seems to me that if youindividualize the gospel,
over-individualize the gospel.
I don't want to eliminate theindividual, but you
over-individualize the gospel.
(21:20):
For instance, philippians 2,work out your salvation, for it
is God who is at work within you.
I don't know how many timesI've heard people say that.
That's, in essence sayingthat's the story of my life.
I want to work out my salvationand my relationship with God.
Well, okay, there's nothingwrong with that.
(21:41):
It's not what Paul says.
What Paul says is you, as thecommunity in Christ at Philippi,
work out, embody your corporatesalvation in the world, because
God is at work, not inside you,but among you enhuman in Greek
among you.
Of course, god is at workwithin you individually, but
that's not Paul's main point,that's not his point in that
(22:03):
passage.
So what does it mean to become,not to replace the gospel, but
to embody the gospel.
I don't mean that we're thesalvation of the world or we're
the saviors of the world not atall.
But we can't be the church ifwe don't embody the gospel.
I don't mean that we're thesalvation of the world or we're
the saviors of the world not atall.
But we can't be the church ifwe don't embody the gospel.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
Yeah, well, that's so good, Work out your salvation.
He is always speaking outsideof Titus and Timothy Philemon.
I mean these are individualletters to leaders in the church
.
He's always speaking tochurches that have been
established.
I've thought this for manyyears that the Holy Spirit moved
(22:39):
out of Pentecost, obviously inthe book of Acts, and you see
the gospel going from Jerusalemto Rome and then all roads lead
out of Rome.
It's the sending of the churchout of Rome, that's the
missional move in the book ofActs.
And then you've got Paulwriting all of these letters to
churches that have already beenplanted and established, with
leaders that have been raised up.
In Ephesians, chapter four, issuch a live verse.
(23:00):
And then this one office.
We could have some, maybeconversation, I don't think
debate, but apostle, evangelist,prophet, preacher, teacher for
the, equipping, for thereleasing, for the you could
even say sending, empowering ofall of the saints.
This is why leaders exist andit's very evident that Paul had
that anticipatory participation.
That's your language, I haveparticipated in it or I have
(23:24):
been grafted in.
You know, I have been crucifiedwith Christ and then we have
been collectively changed andman, this is where the
sacraments kind of come in soheavily.
I have been baptized, I've beenwashed, I've been put to death
so that the new man or woman inme may be raised up.
But then I'm set out with acommon confession, a common
(23:46):
union.
That's the catalytic impact ofthe Lord's Supper.
It's a common union as we moveout in mission to make Jesus
known sins forgiven, as we moveout in mission to make Jesus
known sins forgiven.
And we're a new type of people,a new type of image bearers,
with the cross being what goesever, ever before us.
That's the only way that I canread the Apostle Paul, because
we have some debates in ourcircles that pit confessional
(24:09):
Lutherans versus missionalLutherans, and it's two sides of
the same coin.
We're a confessing people, abelieving a hearing and
believing people, and then we'rea doing people, who live it out
, not because of it.
I love how you even I'm not asconcerned about works,
righteousness, and if I've beenput to death, if we've been put
to death because of therighteousness that's found in
Christ, because of the cross ofJesus Christ, centered in our
(24:32):
new identity as baptizedchildren of God.
There's no room for works here.
It just is what it is.
We're living out what willultimately be on the last day
when Jesus returns to make allthings new and we live in a
perfect, right relationship withGod, self, others and the rest
of creation.
But that new life is not justthen and there.
It's here and now.
The kingdom of heaven, becauseof the inbreaking of Jesus and
(24:55):
then the sending of the HolySpirit, is here and now, not
just then and there.
Say more about anticipatoryparticipation, dr Gorman.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
I was going to say.
That's exactly what I mean bythe term anticipatory
participation.
I mean if we believe that whatGod has done in Christ is to
inaugurate the new creation ofthe prophets promised, the
kingdom of God, the new creationthese are not synonymous, but
they're overlapping terms If webelieve that God has really done
(25:22):
that and that that new creationpoints forward to the time when
Shalom, the peace of theprophets promised, will cover
the earth and the justice of Godwill cover the earth, cover the
earth and the justice of Godwill cover the earth and God
will reign in that veryself-giving sense, if you will,
the canonic sense of alwaysgiving his love in creation and
(25:43):
redemption and in theeschatological reality.
This is God's nature toself-give.
And now, in anticipation ofthat, the church becomes, is
called to become, a kind ofmodel of that, a 25-cent word,
an instantiation, if you will, akind of emblem, an icon of what
(26:07):
is to come, never perfectly.
In Wesleyan and Methodistcircles we have a saying moving
on to perfection.
It doesn't mean we'll ever,either individually or
corporately, arrive there, butour goal is to know Christ and
to, as Paul says in Philippians3, to grab hold of the one who
grabbed hold of me and of us.
(26:28):
And what's his purpose?
His purpose is to be creatingthese communities that have a
major impact on their worlds,not because they're grabbing for
power, but because they'reserving, they're doing good.
So you know, I joked a littlebit about not being as concerned
(26:49):
about works.
Righteousness no Christianofficially is Pelagian.
Catholics sometimes get accusedof being Pelagian.
They're not, and I'm notCatholic, but I've read the
Catholic catechism.
I know grace precedes works,but the point is that Jesus said
himself the greatestcommandments are to love God and
(27:11):
love neighbor.
You can't love your neighborwithout doing something.
It's not some kind of head trip, and if you want to call that
works in the, of course it'sworks, it's activity, it's
mission.
But to claim you're the churchand not be involved in the
service of other people is aboutas oxymoronic as it comes.
(27:32):
Uh, it makes absolutely nosense and also it completely
disintegrates the tie betweenChristianity and Judaism.
You can't read the OldTestament and think, oh, the
whole purpose of life is tobelieve something.
The purpose of life is to loveGod and love your neighbor,
(27:53):
including the stranger,including the migrant, including
the enemy, even according toJesus.
So I mean you're getting mestarted on my soapbox, tim so.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
No, it's good, Dr Gorman, I really appreciate it.
I mean, we're confessing peoplein our gatherings.
We have which you were justthere a confession and
absolution, sometimes a slightlymore formal.
I, a poor, miserable sinner,sinner, confessing you all my
sins and iniquities, which whichI've ever offended you and
justly deserve your temporal andeternal punishment.
I'm sorry for them.
Sincerely repent of them and Ipray you have your boundless
(28:24):
mercy and grace for the sake ofyour son, jesus Christ.
You would have mercy upon uponme, and there's no shortage of
things I love thinking about,not just sins of commission, but
sins of omission.
So there's no grounds forself-justification, because
there's always more, of course,right, but it's in Christ.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
It has nothing to do with with earning salvation or
earning justification.
No, it's living out what you'vebeen given.
John Barclay, very significantNew Testament scholar in Great
Britain, has a couple of books,one called Paul and the Power of
Grace, the other one calledPaul and the Gift.
His basic argument is in theancient world, kairos, grace,
(29:07):
which also meant gift, a gift.
In the ancient world and Ithink in many ways in many
cultures, including our ownancient world, and I think in
many ways in many cultures,including our own, when you give
somebody a gift there's anexpectation of reciprocity.
And when Paul uses the wordgift or grace to talk about the
action of God, he says in verypoignant, I think very good
(29:29):
language, barclay says says thegrace of God is unconditional,
but not unconditioned.
It's unconditional, in otherwords, it's when we're enemies
Christ died for us right.
When we're sinners, god's graceis unconditioned.
You can't earn it.
No, nothing makes it merited ordeserved.
(29:51):
But because it's a gift, it's adivine gift it comes with an
obligation attached.
The first obligation isgratitude.
Charis, gratitude, give thanksto God, is the same word as
grace.
We even say it today.
I'm going to say grace beforemy meal, right, it's the same
language in the ancient Greekspeaking world.
(30:12):
And then also, when we thinkabout grace as something that
includes reciprocity, we thinkabout the many times in which in
the Bible, when someone isforgiven, they don't go back to
their old way of life, they'recalled to move on.
(30:35):
The woman caught in adultery Goand sin no more.
The woman at the well, whateverher condition is, she bore
witness to the community.
She became an apostolic witness, if you will.
So there's no dichotomy betweenconfession in the general sense
(30:56):
or confession of sin in thenarrow sense, and the call to do
.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
God's work in the world.
Well, hey, I think one of thebest places we find Paul gosh
there are so many places, but wefind Paul giving us a.
There were so many places, butwe find Paul giving us a living
example of what it looks like tolove unconditionally and then
be conditioned to love is in themarriage relationship in
Ephesians 5, 22 to 33.
(31:23):
Just as Christ has loved thechurch, so husbands love your
wives.
As the church submits to Christ, so wives see their husbands as
the leader in the home.
Here's the way, husband, you'regoing to love your wife, not
taking the powerful, pridefulposition, but humbling yourself
even to the point of death.
And then Paul says this is thismystery of the union between
(31:46):
the embodiment of Christ, thecrucified and risen one, and
then living within us as thechurch, is a divine mystery.
And then I love how he ends.
I love how he ends in verse 33.
However, let's get practicalhere.
Let the husband love his wifeand the wife respect her husband
.
It moves, it flows and it getslived out.
(32:06):
It'd be weird for me, dr, howlong have you been married,
brother?
Long time, long time.
Okay, it flows and it getslived out.
It'd be weird for me, dr?
How long have you been married,brother?
I didn't even talk.
Long time, long time.
Ok, I'm 20 years, right?
It'd be strange for me to say Ilove you and then I do, which I
do unconditionally to my wife,alexa, but then do very little
to display that love by takingcare of.
I just washed some dishes lastnight, dr Gorman I of.
(32:33):
I just washed some dishes lastnight, dr Gorman.
I was doing my husbandly duty,putting the kids to bed, all
those types of things, right?
It'd be very strange for me tohave that identity and then not
live in that identity.
Yeah, so any more about thehusband and wife kind of model
that Paul gives.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
I think you've you've exhausted, you've said plenty
on that, I guess.
Maybe just to point out, evenin the, even in the marriage
relationship, it's within theChristian household of mutual
submission Verse 21.
Yeah, so yeah, I've beenmarried.
I mean I'm both proud and alittle embarrassed to admit I've
(33:04):
been married for almost 50years.
We got married very young.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
Very cool, very cool.
I'm 30 years behind you, sowe'll get there one day at a
time, right, brother?
Well, I love this way ofunderstanding the movement of
the church in witness andmission using centripetal and
centrifugal action.
Would you talk about that alittle bit, dr Gorman?
Speaker 2 (33:26):
Sure.
So out of the vocabulary ofphysics you have this idea that
something can move sort of in onitself from the out toward a
center, and that's centripetal.
And then you have movement fromthe center out to the outer
(33:47):
exteriors if you centrifugal,two different kinds of forces
and missiologists.
For a long time, somemissiologists at least have used
that language to say that thepurposes of god, the mission of
god, is both of those things.
That is to say, the church asgod's agent definitely needs to
move toward a center, to tocreate a community and to be
(34:09):
caring for that community, to be.
That's part of God's mission.
To create a holy communitythat's cared for, that's loved,
that is taking care of oneanother, loving one another,
serving one another, cryingtogether, sharing joys together.
All those kinds of that's partof the mission of God.
The mission of God is not simplygoing out, in other words.
(34:32):
So the centripetal mission ofGod is to pull people in to this
circle and then at the sametime, for God's mission to wind
its way out and for the churchto be called out of that central
spot and taken out into theworld, called out of that
(34:52):
central spot and taken out intothe world.
So I think it's a lovely way ofusing the metaphor of
centripetal and centrifugalforce as a unity, and that God
is interested in both.
So yes, does God want to?
So a confessing, holy forgivenpeople.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
Made holy by God.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
Is that the end?
No, that's the beginning.
So that group of people is sentout into the world.
Does that mean everybodybecomes an evangelist or a
missionary in some differentculture?
No, that's not the case at all.
But I think we misread Paul ifwe think that the people who he
(35:37):
was pastoring by letter weresimply gathering together on
Sunday night to celebrate theLord's Supper and then going
home and nobody knew anythingabout it.
Their neighbors, their friends,their business associates knew
anything about it.
Their neighbors, their friends,their business associates.
Why in the world was Paul andwere other early Christians
(35:57):
imprisoned?
Why were those who were notimprisoned, like in Philippi,
thessaloniki, rome perhaps, andother places to which Paul
writes, why does he eitheraddress them as sharing in his
persecution or in his sufferingsif they weren't doing something
that got people annoyed?
That's it.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
Yeah, what did they do that got people annoyed, dr
Gorman.
I mean, you talk about this.
They made declarativeconfessional statements, and I
think the key one, caesar well,no, I don't know.
No, it's Jesus is Lord, there'sone Lord.
It's great.
I mean, they were very, verybold.
Talk about their boldness inconfession, dr Gorman.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
Yeah, I mean, if we want to be confessing Christians
letitely with people who thinkCaesar is Lord or some specific
deity or many different deitiesare Lords or updated to our own
(36:58):
context, if you say somethingthat sounds like it could
challenge political authority oryou're not necessarily going to
be well-received and that canhave all kinds of consequences.
We believe most scholarsbelieve that in the early church
(37:22):
some Christians lost theirbusiness ties their business.
Let's say they had a shop andsomebody finds out that they're
going off to the Christianmeeting.
And well, are you still goingto participate in our activities
where we we offer incense tothe emperor or we have a
sacrifice to the God who is thepatron, god of our particular
(37:45):
profession and I say I'm sorry,I only worship Jesus as Lord.
Now, well, if that's the case,that puts our business and our
city in danger and we're notgoing to kill you, but we're not
going to do business with youuntil maybe somebody gets mad
enough where they actually dothreaten you and maybe even
carry that out.
(38:06):
In Hebrews it says you've notyet suffered to the shedding of
blood, but if you haven't andit's brought up, that means it
must be at least a possiblepossibility.
I mean, I think we're unawareof the way in which the gospel,
(38:26):
as Kevin Rogue, a very fine NewTestament scholar at Duke
Divinity School, puts it.
Revolution, no, no.
New culture, yes, and that newculture that the church embodies
can be not deliberately, but itcan be threatening, it can be
perceived as a threat.
And is it a threat?
(38:47):
Well, yeah, I mean we do.
At least we should do economicsdifferently, we should do all
kinds of things differently fromour host culture.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
So, yeah, no, that's really good.
I loved your section on thethree theological graces and how
Paul orders them in what wethink is his oldest book or his
first book.
1 Thessalonians as faith is hisoldest book or his first book.
1 Thessalonians as faith, loveand hope.
Most of the time we look at 1Corinthians 13, faith, hope and
love but most of the time heorders them faith, love and hope
(39:18):
.
Why are those the threetheological graces and why is
that order important in Paul'swritings, dr Gordon?
Speaker 2 (39:26):
Well, in 1 Thessalonians there is a strong
emphasis on hope and he actuallyhas that order twice at the
beginning of the letter, inchapter one at the kind of major
components of becoming abeliever in Christ, a believer
in the gospel.
And yet they sufferedpersecution.
(40:01):
Paul was so worried about themthat he sent Timothy to check
out if they had survived, ifthey had retained their faith,
not their sorry, not theirLutheran confession, but their
faithfulness, had they beenfaithful in spite of persecution
.
Paul prayed, paul worried andPaul finally sent Timothy.
(40:23):
And so I think he deliberatelyputs the order of faith, love
and hope because he wants thecommunity that is threatened or
persecuted to know that, nomatter what happens to them,
they have the hope of Christ'sreturn and of all that that
implies for resurrection and foreternal life and for security
and all those kinds of things.
But there's even hope in thepresent.
(40:45):
So I would say that Paul altersthe order depending on what
he's trying to emphasize.
He emphasizes hope in 1Thessalonians, he emphasizes
love in 1 Corinthians, becauseit seems to be a rather unloving
community and there may betimes.
Maybe in our context, maybewe're good at loving, maybe
(41:08):
we're good at hope, maybe we'regood at loving, maybe we're good
at hope, maybe we're not veryfaithful.
So maybe in our context, paulwould say I give you these three
virtues of missional practiceslove, hope and faithfulness and
maybe emphasize the faithfulness.
I haven't ever said that outloud before, but now that I say
it I like it.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
Yeah, yeah, no, I think that's, I think that's
true Romans.
You did, I mean a hugecommentary on Romans.
If you were to make a case thatPaul was, he said a lot in
Romans.
I mean it's this kind of magnumopus, right Theological, very,
very deep.
But would you do you think hegave extra emphasis to faith,
love or hope, if there's one ofthose, do you think he had extra
(41:48):
emphasis in romans in yourscholarly work?
What do you think it would be?
Speaker 2 (41:51):
well, that's an interesting question.
Um, in the commentary I say ifjohn is the gospel of life,
romans is the epistle of life.
Um, I, I guess I would if I hadto answer that.
It seems to me all three ofthem are pretty balanced in that
letter.
But I guess I would emphasize,especially for those of us who
(42:14):
are used to reading Romans as atheological document, to
remember that the letter movesto very practical conclusions In
chapter 14 and 15, he wants tomake sure that the weak are
taken care of.
15, he wants to make sure thatthe weak are taken care of and
he wants to make sure,throughout chapters 12 and 13
and 14 and 15, that thecommunity is a thriving
(42:36):
community, life together.
Again going back to Bonhoeffer,you know that's what life's.
The gospel is not just about Godsaving us from our sin.
The gospel is about lifetogether 12, 13, 14, 15, even 16
.
Speaker 1 (42:51):
Well, I think initially the Lutheran would
probably say it was about faith,but to say, the summary of the
law or the teaching of Christ islife together, which I would
make synonymous with love, thelove of God that flows from the
cross.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
There's a lot of love in chapters 12 to 15 for sure,
certainly, and there's I mean inmy commentary I suggest that
for paul um I I call hope thefuture tense of faith, the
future tense of faith.
There's a lot of connectionbetween faith and hope,
especially in romans 4 aboutabraham.
You know, uh, what looks like ahopeless situation.
(43:29):
He exercises hope.
So, yeah, there's lots to besaid about that.
Speaker 1 (43:34):
This has been fun.
Hey, this has been so fun.
I'm really, really grateful forto God for making creating
Reverend.
Dr Michael Gorman, brother,you're a blessing.
Let's close with the topic ofpeace.
We live in a very, I could say,peaceless world.
Polarization was the word ofactually 2024.
(43:56):
If there was one word that Ithink one of the most searched
words via Google waspolarization.
And so we need the peace andthe unity that flows from the
cross and empty tomb of JesusChrist.
How should a Paulineunderstanding of peace change
the mission of the local church,dr Gorman?
Speaker 2 (44:14):
Yeah Well, at the heart of Paul's understanding of
peace is, first of all, theprophetic promise that God's
will is for the wolf and thelamb to lie down together, or
the lion and the lamb to liedown together, that people who
are at odds with one anotherwill be reconciled together.
So I remember years ago afriend of mine is now a pastor,
(44:37):
actually in the Methodist Church, but at the time he was just a
member of our congregation andthe kids on his kid's school bus
were always fighting.
So he volunteered to be a busrider every morning and every
afternoon and he could.
He had a nighttime job.
He would ride on the bus tomake sure the kids didn't get
into fights.
I mean, and he did thatdeliberately to be a peacemaker.
(45:01):
At the time he was studying thisis interesting.
He was studying internationalrelations and peacemaking
international relations andpeacemaking at American
University in Washington.
So he was working as a securityguard at night so he could do
his reading at night, takeclasses during the day and in
the morning and afternoon, rideon his kid's school bus.
(45:22):
He's a really cool guy, by theway, and just the other day he
was telling me about trying tostart this new movement toward
peace in our polarized society,in the local church.
So I mean, that's one person,but it seems to me we have
plenty of opportunities in ourlocal congregations and our
(45:42):
local communities to try tocreate places of understanding,
not necessarily acceptance.
We have to agree to disagree,but we have to do it civilly and
part of the Christian missionis to say, even within the
church we have so muchpolarization in our own
congregations, how do we live ina way that exemplifies the fact
(46:04):
that, as Paul says in Ephesians, he broke down the wall between
Gentile and Jew, he broke downthe wall between black and white
, he broke down the wall betweenMale and female.
You fill in the blank in our owncontext.
So many binaries, the citizenand the immigrant In this
(46:28):
country.
Unless you're Native American,we're all immigrants, so lots of
ways that we can think aboutpeacemaking.
Speaker 1 (46:36):
So yeah, yeah, well, that's really good we get to
live with anticipatoryparticipation.
That's what's going to stickwith me, with a heart filled
with faith and love and hope,and hands that are quick to make
way for peace, in anticipationof the Prince of Peace
descending on that last day tomake all things new.
(46:58):
Dr Gorman, if people want toconnect with you, brother, how
can they do so In your work?
But come in the gospel, checkit out, man.
He's got so many other works.
I'm sure you can find them allon Amazon or wherever right.
Speaker 2 (47:08):
Yeah, they're on Amazon and other booksellers.
If somebody wants to contact medirectly, they can look at St
Mary's Seminary and Universityin Baltimore, maryland, and find
my email address there.
That's probably the easiest.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
Hey, I had a lot of fun with you.
This is the Tim Allman Podcast.
Please like, subscribe, commentwherever it is you take in
these podcasts.
This is a podcast of the UniteLeadership Collective.
Yes, we're a part of theLutheran Church Missouri Synod,
but we believe we're a part ofthe church triumphant, the
church that goes down throughthe ages.
Lutherans have actually, downthrough the ages, been deeply
(47:41):
committed to ecumenicalconversation and I pray that
still continues today, for wehave a lot to learn.
We've been justified by faithin Jesus Christ alone and
therefore sent out with amessage of.
You can be justified too bygrace, through faith, and come
into this brand new life, whichincludes a head that's changed,
a heart, most especially, thathas been changed and hands and
(48:05):
feet that are ready to bring themessage of Jesus and the words
of Jesus into a dark and dyingworld.
It's a good day.
Go make it a great day.
I'm really grateful for you, drGorman, thank you for your time
.
Speaker 2 (48:14):
Thank you Tim.
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