July 9, 2025 • 49 mins
Sandy Wendelin has led faithfully for 41 years—but she’s come dangerously close to walking away more than once. Why? Because the Church still doesn’t know how to handle conflict. In this raw, honest episode, Sandy and Tim expose the unspoken tensions in church leadership: from failed mergers, second-chair burnout, passive-aggressive church culture, and what happens when we fawn instead of fight.
Plus, they tackle the hard questions: Why are we so slow to change? Are LCMS women truly empowered to lead? And is our obsession with tradition stopping the Gospel from moving forward?
Whether you're a pastor, DCE, teacher, or lay leader—this one will hit home.
🔔 Subscribe, comment, and share your experience. Let’s start having the hard conversations that move the Church forward.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to Tim Wallman Podcast.
It's a beautiful day to bealive.
Pray, the joy of Jesus is yourstrength as I get to hang out
with one of my favorite humanson planet Earth.
This leader impacted my journeymore than she probably knows,
and her husband as well.
You know, when you're in thoseearly years of trying to do
something for the first time andyou know, you know you're not
(00:26):
very good at it and you got someopportunities for growth you
need those kind encouragers,friends, who are just a little
bit ahead of you on the journey,to give you courage and to care
for one another.
And I get to hang out withSandy Wendelin today.
She has been a 41-year directorof Christian education.
(00:47):
She has worn a ridiculousamount of hats all in one
congregation my first callingcongregation out of seminary
Bethlehem Lutheran Church andSchool United in Mission in
Lakewood, colorado.
So how are you doing, sandy?
What a joy to be with you.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Yeah, I'm good, good.
What a Colorado.
So how are you doing, sandy?
What a joy to be with you.
Yeah, I'm good, good.
What a wonderful introduction,and I get to call you one of my
five favorite Tims.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
You've got a lot of Tims in your life.
She's very good.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
A lot of fabulous Tims in my life, and number one,
of course, being my husband.
Yeah, you fall behind him.
Oh well, thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
I'm overjoyed for our conversation today.
Let's hunt the good stuff as weget going.
Sandy, right now, what are youmost passionate about in
ministry?
Let's start there.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Yeah, yeah, and that that's so fun to think about
because I am passionate aboutministry right now and that's a
great place to be.
You know, there's moments,there's ebbs and flows where
you're not, and I'm in a goodplace right now where I am.
So a couple of really excitingthings are happening as a
Bethlehem church body that I canget really jazzed about, get
(01:52):
really behind.
One is just the possibility ofexpanding our kind of footprint
on the west side of Denver.
We've been talking with achurch that's just not doing so
well and the pastor's been therea number of years.
He's ready to move on and justkind of doesn't know how to do
that.
So he may know how to do it,but he just doesn't want to do
(02:14):
it quite yet.
And so we're talking aboutpartnering with them, coming
alongside and kind of bringingthe Bethlehem who we are and our
good, solid systems into placein another congregation and then
maybe even thinking about whatdoes that mean for some other
congregations in our area thatmight be in that same place, and
(02:37):
can we take a healthy system,healthy church system, and help
other churches get to that placeas well?
So I get jazzed about being apart of that.
Definitely I get really excitedand this will sound funny about
hiring.
I am passionate about hiringpeople.
Right now I'm doing a lot ofhiring for our Early Learning
(02:59):
Center, our summer camp and ourbefore and after school program,
so got to hire I think it's 11people in the next month.
And you know what's so greatabout hiring?
It's leadership development,right.
You start right there, it'sfrom the outside, and bringing
them on in.
And so, yeah, just finding outwho people are, what their
(03:20):
passions, their gifts are, theirtalents, bring it into a
conversation and seeing what wehave available and matching that
up and making a good match andbringing them on board and
helping them become a part ofthe ministry.
And that's exciting, yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
I love it.
I love it.
Well, I got two follow-upquestions based on that.
When you use the word systems,Sandy, what do you mean by
systems?
This is a leadership podcast,so we care about culture, system
and structures, big, why,mission, vision, values, all of
all of those types of things.
When you use systems, some somechurch leaders are like I don't
even know what that that means.
Could you drill down a littlebit in terms of your
(03:57):
understanding of systems?
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Yeah, so I mean, there's there's so many ways of
looking at that, but what I'mtalking about is, you know,
churches do the preaching,teaching right.
That's why we existed.
Administration of thesacraments and that's important,
that's the main thing, that'swhy we come together happen that
(04:21):
maintains the building, thatprovides the IT so that we can
communicate with our people.
That, yeah, that just makesministry happen.
So there's that kind ofinternal structure and systems.
(04:42):
And then there and you know,I'm thinking about like what our
executive director does, soit's oversight of the facilities
and HR and IT and all of thosekinds of things.
So those are kind of theinternal systems.
And then I think about how wedeliver ministry, so how people
(05:03):
come to connect with Jesus inthis place.
So we think of discipleship andwe think of leadership
development or recruitment ofvolunteers, those kinds of
things.
Those are all the systems thatI talk about.
And so, while we're strong insome of those things, we still
have to shore up some of thosethings.
But I'll tell you, thinkingabout doing it in another place
(05:25):
really motivates you towards,towards movement.
You know you really get excitedabout, uh, uh, shoring
everything up.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of conversation right now
Thank you for that Uh going onbetween churches who are looking
to to care for one another, andyou know we're in a we're in a
couple of differentconversations right now with
potential mergers and, um, yeah,that's we're.
We're kind of slow playing that, sandy, to be quite honest,
it's uh, it's not something towalk into inadvisedly or lightly
(05:55):
.
That sounds like language,right, uh, but but reverently,
deliberately, like uh, to pullback, because you, you take a
number of the stories, right,our cultures are based on this
kind of shared story of whatthat ministry did and that
shared story does not yourshared story at Bethlehem moving
(06:16):
into another place or for we atChrist Greenfield into another
place.
That's a very difficult move.
We're working on our long-rangemulti-site strategy right now,
making sure everything's shoredup.
Shout out to the Unstuck Group.
They worked with Redeemer inFort Collins, a number of other
LCMS congregations and obviouslybeyond, and they gave some data
(06:38):
in terms of mergers.
That is pretty alarming howinfrequently they work well,
really.
Yeah, they're like it's adifficult thing and obviously
you're like if this is going towork, there needs to be the end
of one thing and the start ofanother thing.
But you're still there in thatplace where that other
(07:02):
organization has years, decadesand decades of memory, and it's
just, it's challenging.
It requires a lot of EQ skills,a lot of time and trust to even
to even get there, and fromtheir perspective, they'd much
rather launch something new in anew place with a brand new, new
memory.
Not that it can't work, it'sjust to be entered into
(07:24):
advisedly.
I'm not saying that to give youany instruction.
I'm actually giving myself moreinstruction because I really, I
really want to, I really want topartner.
You know, and you really wantto care, but it's but it's
difficult Any any more.
Follow-up to that, sandy.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Yeah, well, you know you talk about family systems,
okay, and that whole familysystems theory that can be
applied to the church too.
You know, there's, like you,like you're saying, there's that
history, there's that sharedstory, there's the joys and the
challenges that have occurred,the hurts, the wounds, the
damage, as well as thecelebrations and and yeah, how
(08:00):
do you do that?
And the way that we're talkingabout is really kind of what you
suggest that we realize that wehave to acknowledge, recognize,
celebrate where people havebeen and give people an
opportunity to adjust to, maybe,where they need to go and what
they need to do in light of anew reality, of a new reality
(08:29):
and um, and then really kind ofcome in and say this is, it is a
new, it's a new day, um, yeah,In light, in light of all that.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
but yeah, it's crazy stuff here's, here's.
The thing to consider is likethere's the asset of a property.
That is significant, you know,in markets like ours where
property is expensive.
That's one of the primaryreasons why partnering with
other churches is winsome isbecause we don't have to.
Maybe there's a partnership andless expensive.
(08:53):
It's just less expensive tolaunch a church that way.
So definitely not a no, butmaybe and we'll see how it goes
is kind of our perspective rightnow.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Yeah, yeah, Well, and we're slowing down a little bit
on it.
The pastor isn't, you know he'snot there yet because he's
working through all of thisstuff, right yeah?
And so, yeah, we're slowingdown and God will use that.
There's an opportunity to saywho do we need to be?
Where do we need to be?
(09:22):
What is God doing in this timeof not yet?
Right yeah?
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Let's uh, let's get into your story a little bit.
I really wanted to go down thehiring piece, but there's so
much more to share about yourstory.
Um so, as you look back at howyou've evolved as a leader, 41
years at one congregation isamazing.
What are three things thatyou're most proud of, Sandy, in
your ministry journey?
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Yeah, thanks, thanks for asking.
I don't know that this is thefirst thing that I should lead
with proud of, but what I'mjoy-filled about and feel
blessed about is that I actuallyhave been in this space, in
this place.
I'm called to this church thathas allowed me to serve here for
so long, to be a leader, to bea woman in ministry, all of
those things.
So I'm so grateful forBethlehem.
(10:12):
So I'll start with that andthen I think of some things that
have happened along the waythat just I didn't know.
You know we all get intoministry we don't know, we don't
know how God's going to use us,what's going to happen, and all
of that and some of the thingsthat just have brought me joy
along the way.
Lifelight We've had LifeLightat Bethlehem 35 years started
(10:34):
with your father in law actually, yeah, back in the day when he
was hanging out here.
Yeah, started.
That little ministry grew to,you know, a ministry that 250
people would be in the word on aweekend in small groups, all of
that.
What I love about that is,before, the leadership pipeline
was even language that anybodywould use.
(10:55):
That's how we set up LifeLight.
We had leaders.
We had, you know, groups.
We had leaders.
We had we called them somethingdifferent but we had coaches
and we had a director and itworked.
You know it freed up staff.
I mean it was enabling laypeople to move into leadership
roles and really do some amazingthings.
I would say, because of that, Iconsider and I didn't do the
(11:16):
preaching teaching part of that,I didn't not the teaching part
of that Pastor Langwish doesthat so but I built the
structure around it andmaintained that over the years
in various levels.
So just that Bethlehem is nowwhat I would consider a
biblically literate placebecause of a ministry where
(11:37):
people are in the Word, and it'smorphed.
Now it's not as structured asit has been and we're doing it
in homes now.
You know Bible study inpeople's homes and Bible study
via Zoom and all of that.
So you know it's come alongwith the times and so that's
great.
So Life Flight is a cool thing.
I love so much about the churchand I love serving in the church
(12:02):
.
I love being a part of thechurch.
I like just I love the churchso much and I have had an
opportunities and this might bea metaphor of building the
church.
I've served on four buildingcommittees and that I've loved,
that.
It actually has been so muchfun seeing this building change
(12:22):
and then getting to do thedecorating and all of that kind
of stuff.
So you know, that's a that's apart of my evolution as a leader
is, you know, learning how towork in that kind of environment
, in that kind of world.
And I would say, probably thething that has brought me the
(12:43):
most joy and was totallyunexpected, you know, you said
I've worn many hats, but I lovedthat time I got to work with
our early learning center forjust a minute it was supposed to
be a year, it turned out to beseven taking it from a one room,
one teacher kind of situationin our school to, at that time
(13:05):
it was four years and about 10teachers serving, you know, four
times the amount of kids thatwe started out with and now
they've even grown beyond thatwhere our preschool is the
largest part of our ministry.
But yeah, that was anunexpected little path, but who
knew, you know, and just it wasso good.
So, yeah, just all of thosethings kind of shape you in
(13:28):
leadership and I think that'spart of you know, an attribute
of being adaptable, and theycall me the gap filler around
here.
You know you need somethingdone.
You know I'll fill that gap fora minute.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
Sandy, you're I've told you this before, but maybe
not publicly You're a tremendousleader.
I know your identity rests inChrist, but he made you so
adaptable.
People love being on your teams.
I remember my early years beingon your discipleship team,
ministry action team and gettingto think through small groups
(14:03):
and Bible studies, integratedwith LifeLight, like you were
just talking about, and youwould host us at your home.
I remember some kind of visionstrategic retreats you'd host at
your home.
I mean you were ahead of thecurve on so many different
levels in terms of teamleadership and I just want to go
deeper into that.
What are your primary values forleading a team?
(14:26):
Well, because you build trust,you build consensus, you build
on vision and then you movetoward execution.
That's how God created SandyWendland, and the church is way,
way better for it.
And just sitting at your feet Imean getting to watch you work
over the years was just such anextreme pleasure, because I
don't think I've told you this,but a lot of the way you led is
(14:48):
how.
Then, when the Lord called mehere to Christ Greenfield 12
years ago, it was just like inme, and it wasn't because I
needed those first five years atBethlehem and I honestly look
at I wish it had been longerbecause I had way more to learn
with you.
But I'm just being a part ofyour team, carried over.
You have a multiplying effectwith the people that you you
(15:08):
work with.
So what are some of thosecharacteristics that make for
good team leadership in yourestimations, andy?
Speaker 2 (15:13):
Yeah, I think you have to know where you're going.
No, that's the first thing.
What's the vision?
What estimations, andy?
Yeah, I think you have to knowwhere you're going.
No, that's the first thing.
What's the vision?
What do we want to accomplishhere?
And connecting that to what Godwants us to accomplish together
in a place yeah, helping orequipping people to understand
what that vision is, becausethat's going to get messed with
so often.
You know, whenever there'sproblems, whenever there's
(15:37):
conflict, whenever there'sdifficulty, the vision gets
messed with, and so theleadership has to be keeping
that the main thing all the time.
What does God want us to do inthis place at this time and what
are what this team is doing toaccomplish that?
So that just has to be rightout there, doing, doing to
(15:58):
accomplish that, so that justhas to be right out there.
And then working with withfolks to just realize who they
are and how God has created them, and celebrating that.
Well, first of all, helpingthem explore it.
You know everybody comes intointo any kind of role really
hesitant and, especially in thechurch, like they want to do it
right.
Right, they don't want todishonor God or do something
(16:22):
wrong or feel like the churchdoesn't appreciate them.
People want to do things right,but really what they need to be
focusing on is you know, whodid God create them to be, what
are their gifts, what's theirpassion, what has God planted in
them, what's their personality,style, all of those things and
helping them to celebrate thatand to say I can use that to the
(16:44):
church functions best is is ina team environment.
Um, yeah, I'm trying to thinkof other things that are are
important in that, you know,celebrating together, being, um,
(17:06):
working alongside each other,just shoulder to shoulder,
serving, you know, andencouraging each other, building
each other up and when there'sdifficulty, but yeah, no, that's
so good.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
I love your story and I know there have been really
really great times and reallyreally hard times.
As you look back, obviously youknow you're sensitive to
everything and you want to putthe best construction.
But what are, what are some ofthose moments?
And let's just hunt the hardstuff here just for a minute.
What was the hardest part aboutbeing at Bethlehem for as long
(17:40):
as you've been there, sandy?
Speaker 2 (17:42):
Yeah, you know, you know that there have been
probably three times that I'vebeen on the brink, just on the
brink of saying this isn't myplace anymore.
God, are you calling me away?
And yet I think in those timeshe wasn't calling me away, it
(18:04):
was me thinking I needed toleave because obviously I'm not
gone.
So he still puts that stamp,that call on you to stay, call
(18:27):
on you to stay.
And yeah, those times are whensomething in me has been pushed
or challenged to the edge and Ididn't know how to, how to
overcome it.
I just didn't know how to towork around it, how to get um,
get beyond it.
And you know that that comesdown to to conflict.
You know, between people,basically Um, so those, those
(18:47):
are um, those are the hard times.
And um, when you can't, whenyou can't get to the other side
of a conflict, cause conflict's,neutral right, nothing.
There doesn't have to beconflict, doesn't have to be bad
when there's difficulty.
But there comes a time when theneeds aren't met.
You know what's behind conflictis unmet needs.
And so when, whatever my needis, or vision, or whatever, and
(19:10):
if it, if that doesn't occur,sometimes there's a bypass and
you have to part ways and thenwork through, you know, with God
, you know how this is all, whythis has happened, and you know
part of coming to the other sideof that is resilience and
(19:33):
learning what God has for you onthe other side of it.
But, yeah, the difficult timesat Bethlehem, I think, just
squeeze you into the again, theperson that God is creating you
to be for him, for you and forhis purpose.
So early days were usuallyaround structural kinds of when
(19:57):
I got systems kinds of thingslike you know the boards bug you
or do something or the councilis weird.
You know you have to deal withthem.
There's always conflict and thesad thing is there's often
conflict with pastors and theother workers.
(20:18):
We're in that very uniquesituation in that we have many,
many staff, you know.
So there's a lead pastor andthen there's a lot of second
chair kind of people, a lot ofdirector level kind of people,
and so, yeah, there's oftentimesconflict there.
(20:40):
Dces often leave ministrywithin the first five to seven
years because of conflict withpastors right.
And yeah, and not knowing how toget to the other side of that,
and so and those are, honestly,those have been my pressure
points along the way um havebeen, have been with, with
(21:00):
senior pastor yeah, whom Idearly love.
Right, that's what's behind,yeah, stay.
What's behind all of that?
You know you've got your things, but behind all of that is a
love for the church, a love forour savior and a love for the
person, and yet you perseverethrough that.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Amen.
Hey, let's talk your philosophyof conflict and just go a
little bit deeper.
When are you one?
Are you a fighter?
You get out of it.
Are you freezing, fawning, likewhat are some of your?
When the amygdala hijack,inevitably happens, and which
happens?
You get triggered.
Your values collide withanother person's values, like
(21:41):
how have you come to know yourautomatic responses and how have
you learned to kind of regulatethose automatic responses
toward a direction that's morehealthy, that brings unity,
listening, care andcollaboration?
Could you talk about that,sandy?
Speaker 2 (21:59):
listening, care and collaboration.
Could you talk about that,sandy?
Yeah, absolutely, um.
So such a timely question.
We just had an off-site retreatlast week.
The topic was conflict, so weuse the thompson killman um, you
know model, so I'm not aware.
Tell me about it, you're notokay, so that you, you actually
mentioned the attributes thatare in that particular conflict.
So do you move to competing,collaborating, compromising,
(22:20):
avoiding, accommodating.
So you look at what is yourassertiveness.
You know how they're always ona scale.
So there's the assertivenesspart of the scale and then
there's the cooperative part ofthe scale.
I'm highly assertive, I'm onthe cooperative scale kind of
right here.
I'm highly assertive, I'm onthe cooperative scale kind of
right here.
So and so I kind of land inthat competing quadrant as my
(22:43):
natural, my natural place.
When conflict arises, I want tofight, you know.
So when I'm threatened, there'sthe fight, fight, flight, fawn
and freeze and I'll go.
I'll go to fight.
You know that's my natural,that's my natural place.
And so, realizing that, so thatparticular model will say,
(23:09):
while you have a natural placethat you land in conflict, your
goal is to understand others intheir conflict and adapt, right,
modify, so that you can get tothe heart of the matter, so that
you can actually haveconversation.
And so, while my naturalposition might be competing, I
(23:34):
might need to realize thatcollaboration needs to happen in
that situation, that competingisn't going to be helpful
because if I'm with somebodythat's competitive also.
So this is where PL PastorLanglish and I will be.
He's competitive, I'mcompetitive, we'll come at it.
We'll go into conflict and wealmost enjoy the fight.
(23:57):
I don't that might be anextreme, but we can get to that
place of just do the conflictingbecause we need to just get it
all out and all of that and wecan move on.
Others around us are like whoa,what just happened?
There Are Sandy and Peele.
Okay, are they going to be ableto?
Speaker 1 (24:16):
you know, work together and you know it's like
Like no, we've done this ahundred times in the last 41,.
You know this is a normal thing.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
I remember being in meetings.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
I remember being in meetings with you early on and I
was like, wow, this isfascinating.
I almost wanted to get somepopcorn and just kind of sit
back and watch it.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
go on, if you can manage your emotions that way,
then it's really good.
But you know, we have a lot ofreally really wonderful, tender
people who are like thatconflict is going to result in
separation, Right, and so youhave to realize that you know,
(24:56):
um, understanding that my needto conflict this way and and
fight because I feel somethingis threatened is, um, is not
always the most helpful way.
So, you know, I I like to getto.
You know, regulating theemotions, that's a, that's a
crazy one.
So, yeah, we not only did wejust have that that little
(25:17):
session, but then yesterday Ihad a difficult conflict with a
staff person, someone on thelead team, and so, yeah, I'm
thinking about conflict and I'mlike that did not end well, and
the thing I had to go back to soI had to go back to everything
that I know in myself in dealingwith conflict is I've got to
get gritty about it.
(25:37):
You know, I got to keep the mainthing, the main thing I've got
to, you know, work towards mywhat's my passion, and I've got
to persevere through this in away that it can be received
towards the end, which is unitywith this person, Having my need
, my concern heard and thenresponded to the person froze,
(26:00):
totally, froze totally said I'llthink about that or no, maybe
I'll think about that, Like okay, yeah, so there we sat, so it's
unresolved conflict, right, butI had to remove my emotion from
it and that's hard.
And that's hard, yeah, that'shard.
So that's self-regulation Again, bringing all things in my
(26:24):
world together.
I just came off aChrist-centered, trauma-informed
yoga retreat and we're talkingabout regulating and the body
tells the story.
Right, the issues are in thetissues.
So you've got, you've got allthis stuff that your, your body
holds when you don't let theemotions start to to be.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
And it is a risk, but it's a calculated risk and I
think it's a risk worth takingto share what you saw and you
can't control how other peoplerespond to what you saw.
(27:07):
And I would much rather ifwe're, because the church
generally and I have research onthis for my doctor the church
generally is an overly passiveplace.
We think a lot of things but wedon't say those things to one
another and that is the worst.
I mean, the conflict not had isthe worst conflict because
inevitably will explode andpeople will leave and then a lot
(27:31):
of people will be like whathappened here.
The church is epic for this,but the person's just been
stewing on it for a long periodof time having the internal
conversation that never and theyprobably have catastrophized
that other person.
They probably said and I'mgoing to put myself in that lead
person's shoes and we're beingvery general, which is very kind
, it's wonderful.
But I could be thinking rightnow, if I'm passively imbalanced
(27:52):
, sandy's the worst, like Sandy,she doesn't like me, she
doesn't see.
Sandy doesn't know what I'mgoing through, like yeah, and
that's, that's the worst youknow.
So kudos to you and to anyleader who says you know what,
if I'm going to be slightlyimbalanced, I'm going to be a
little bit more on the frankside, not on the.
There's a, there's an extremewhere you can be a jerk, that's
(28:14):
for sure.
But you've been there for 41years.
You obviously the heart andlove of Jesus Do, you do you go
too far sometimes in thatconversation, maybe, but I'd
much rather I'm just saying I'dmuch rather be there than on the
overly passive side.
Anything more to say there,sandy?
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Yeah.
So what happens when you don'tyou know, when you don't bring
something to light, you knowit's like, it's like staying in
the darkness and we know thatthat's not healthy.
That's where Satan lives and,yeah, you need to bring things
to the light and that has tohappen in individuals, that has
to happen in the church, it hasto happen in all places.
(28:52):
I think that you know, when welook at the church, it
(29:14):
definitely we definitely have,as a church body, dealt with
conflict and difficulty andwhat's important to us, what's
in our heart, in a way that hasnot moved us forward right, has
kept things under the water andand sometimes even that fawn.
So you know, we always thinkflight, fight, flight and freeze
.
Yeah, freeze.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
But that fawn, talk about fawning.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, talk aboutfawning.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
I'm just going to accommodate, I'm just going to
go along with the flow.
I'm just along with the flow.
I'm just it's easier to to umback away and say all is good
when the the, the real thingthat needs to be addressed to
move the kingdom forward, is notaddressed and so it's slow.
I think that's why we become soslow in in being able to move,
(29:54):
you know, being able to dowhat's absolutely important for
the church, yeah being able tomove, you know, being able to do
what's absolutely important forthe church?
Speaker 1 (30:03):
Yeah, that that, in terms of family systems, that is
the posture of the abused loverin the home.
They the, the alcoholic, theaddict, the abuser, whatever is
there, and the person justdevelops a kind of a numbness.
There's no vision for thefuture, there's no ability to
speak for self, and so they'rejust flat.
Uh, yeah, it's gonna happenagain.
It just is.
It just is what it is, but Idon't have any.
There's no hope.
(30:23):
I mean, it's a hopeless place tobe I think the fond
characteristic is actually worse, because freezing actually
allows you, hopefully, to think,to move from amygdala to your
prefrontal cortex and tostrategize.
How frank or not do I need tobe right now to keep a solid
sense of self?
But the fawning.
I think the fawning feature hasnot been delved into enough as
(30:45):
it relates to the ministry ofthe local church.
It could be the lay leaderwho's been looking at things for
so long.
Why does not just the pastor butthe board or whatever?
And they're just like well, youknow, why does not just the
pastor but the board or whatever?
And they're just like well, itis what it is.
And then they just occupy a pewfor years and well then,
eventually and this has happenedI don't like no one really
(31:06):
actually cares that I'm here, Ilead in the marketplace in a
pretty healthy direction, butwell oh well, no one cares about
my perspective.
And then they're eventuallyjust gone and people like
where'd Frank go?
You know well, frank wasfawning in the pews for years,
but with not with no ability tobe heard or his vision to be
shared, because conflict was soavoided in the local
(31:27):
congregation.
Anything more to say there,sandy?
Speaker 2 (31:29):
Yeah, yeah, well, and I've been thinking a lot about
church hurt these days, you know, and that's that's how it
happens.
You know, I didn't getsomething I needed from the
church and whatever that is, youknow it might've been Grandpa
Smith wasn't visited in thehospital in his final days, and
I expect the church to do that.
(31:50):
I didn't get communion when Iwas at home, whatever it was, or
my prayer was missed in churchand I thought you would pray for
me, or it might be that, youknow, whatever, whatever people
leave for all this whole rangeof reasons, and I think it is
(32:13):
because and perhaps it's becausewe don't have an environment
where we encourage people to toconflict or to even share what's
on their mind.
But yeah, they just, it justsits there and festers and then
they go away.
And yeah, when things just boil, when things just fester,
(32:35):
they'll boil up, they'll comeout at some point, right?
Speaker 1 (32:37):
So it's tragic, sandy , because eternity is on the
line here.
Yeah, right, when things justfester, they'll boil up.
They'll come out at some point,right?
Well, it's tragic, sandy,because eternity is on the line
here.
Yeah, right, I mean peoplecould walk away from not just
the church but from Jesus ifwe're not more comfortable and
competent at handling difficultconversations.
And first one of the cross wins.
Right, I have to get to myperspective.
Where I have some sort of thisis the book Difficult
(32:59):
Conversations.
I own some contribution to thedysfunction.
Can I get to my level ofcontribution to this dysfunction
?
My intent was good, but the waymy execution may have been poor
in some way shape or form.
Maybe trust hadn't beendeveloped enough.
That's my favorite.
Do you trust me If I'm headinginto difficult conversations
Sometimes?
I mean it sounds kind of cheesyto a degree.
(33:22):
Do you trust me?
I really care for you, you'revaluable here, your contribution
is so impactful.
And then I kind of just thequicker I can just say whatever
it is that needs to be adjusted,that needs to be adjusted, and
then just be quiet and let thespirit kind of work.
The odds of that relationshipgrowing are so much stronger.
(33:44):
And then they come back and say, hey, I didn't have the right
information or you said it in away that I wasn't prepared for.
Oh, that wasn't my intention,please forgive me.
And we do.
And then we move forward.
We move forward throughconflict.
Is growth through stress,through, I thinking, resistance
training?
Right, you're into working out.
(34:05):
Through resistance training,those muscles get stronger and
and the body in turn gets getsstronger.
It's not in and around our art.
We're going to get to ourchurch body, but we have
embraced passive, aggressivebehavior in our church body and
it's very dysfunctional.
We don't talk to people.
We talk about people to other,to other people.
And, yeah, it's a.
It's an opportunity for us togrow and to work from places of
(34:29):
commonality.
Right, cause it just with yourstaff member.
There's so much that you shareand love about that person,
right, and you're going toresolve that conflict.
It's going to happen, probablyjust right after this podcast,
to be quite honest.
But yeah, I mean, there's somuch that you love about that
person and we're going to growin and through it.
We have to own our contributionto the inevitable struggle.
Anything more to say thereabout owning, confessing your
(34:51):
contribution to the struggle?
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Yeah, oh gosh, I think, yeah, and I think that
was the because we're not thereyet.
That was a disappointing partwith my staff person, right, is
I it?
You got to own a little bit ofit.
I'll own a lot of it.
Yeah, yeah, it's, it's.
Pride is a real thing.
Pride is a real thing, isn't it?
Speaker 1 (35:13):
Right and we don't like to confess.
Let's be honest, we're like thekid caught with his hand in the
cookie jar.
Crumbs are all over our faceand it's very evident.
But there's something in methat keeps me from confessing
and I'm a firstborn type Adriven and that's been probably
the biggest learning for me isgrowing and sitting in the midst
(35:36):
of and actually finding joy in,in hunting my contribution to
this struggle and I find joy init because in the other side of
it there's more trust andthere's growth.
We always get better as aministry.
Anything more there, Sandy,Always.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Yeah, always yeah.
And just back to that trustthing that you know, trust just
doesn't happen by saying thewords right, yeah, that that
comes in relationship, thatcomes in spending time together,
by, um, yeah, working throughthings together.
And so we talk around hereabout conflicting.
Well, and when you conflict,well then trust is built.
(36:14):
You know, I think that comes onthe other side of doing hard
things together, and not onlyhard things but good things.
So playing together buildstrust, you know.
So in the church you do thingslike you meet regularly, you
play regularly, you prayregularly, you eat together.
(36:35):
You know you share life witheach other.
That's the stuff that buildstrust.
And, yeah, and that can't beprescribed, that can't be
ritualized or whatever.
You just have to create theenvironments for that to happen.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
Well, you use the word ritual.
Rituals are always forrelationship.
This is why we do our liturgy.
We have our standard.
Ritual gives comfort.
And you mentioned a ritual ofplay and retreating.
See, when I've bowled withsomeone or I've went out on
hikes with someone, or I'mthinking of other things, oh,
(37:12):
I've done competitive go-kartracing with that person, or been
in an escape room trying tosolve problems.
These are all kind of retreatthings that we do a couple,
three times.
Oh, played pickleball with thatperson.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
You know, like were you around when we took the
Jeeps up the hill, yeah, andthen we all had to drive that.
I had to drive a Jeep down amountain.
I don't know how to drive aJeep down a mountain, so good so
what that does is it buildscorporate memory.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
I've done these fun, adventurous things with that
person and so I don't.
I can kind of depersonalize theissue.
It's not just about Sandy.
No, it's about something we'retrying to solve together because
we always want to make theperson the problem.
No, no, no, the person is notthe problem.
This problem is the problem theway it was evolved, but it
doesn't make you, because weobviously, in conflict, always
(38:00):
want to go to identity.
Right, if you come at thisthing that I did or said, that
means not only did I dosomething that's bad, but I am
bad, and you're just affirmingwhat my parents said or my coach
said or whatever, and we'rebuilding this whole big
narrative in our head, right?
No, no, no, let's just talkabout the problem.
We've done fun things together,we've laughed together, we've
(38:20):
cried through hard timestogether.
Let's just work on this on thisstruggle together.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
We've cried through hard times together.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
Let's just work on this, on this struggle together.
Sandy, anything more there wewant to?
Yeah, exactly, no, it's good,that was good Voluntary.
Hey, let's, let's come down thehomestretch here.
Let's talk second chairleadership.
There's a lot of leaders, youknow, commissioned ministers and
I'm right now thinking we'regoing to have a conversation
around commission ministers andtheir voice in Synod and they
felt, you know, you've maybefelt like your voice isn't
always heard, and I think,whether you're an assistant or
(38:51):
associate pastor, maybe thatkind of victim mentality can
kind of be there as well.
How have you been able tomaintain and I know you've
coached others in maintainingthe right posture as a second
chair leader, sandy?
Speaker 2 (39:06):
Yeah, so I actually, you know, part of what I realize
is that in our environment wehave a lot of second chair
leaders.
I mentioned that and so we'reunique in that most churches in
the LCMS have a pastor, and ifthey're big enough, they might
have a second person and thatwould be a second chair leader.
(39:29):
We have a whole cadre of secondchair leaders.
So it's a whole different kindof environment.
So I look at it more as how doI lead up or influence up and
lead down?
Yeah, so it's the lead up andlead down thing.
And when I think about leadingup, that's more about
(39:50):
influencing and it is more abouthow do I understand those that
are above me?
And so it is coming to gripsand comfort with the fact that
you are second chair, you're notthe pastor.
Yeah, so stay in your lane anduse your gifts to the fullest.
You know, that's the firstthing, and for me, because I've
(40:14):
struggled with this, becauseleadership is a strong gift of
mine not teaching, not preaching, not teaching, not preaching,
because leadership andadministration is so strong, to
be in a second chair is reallyhard.
You have to realize that you'resecond chair, no matter what,
(40:36):
and so the skills that you haveto develop, to lead up are very
different.
How can I be?
I have to ask the question howcan I be a part of a shared
vision?
How can I be a part of the nextsteps, realizing that that
still has to come from firstchairperson?
You know some, from the pastorit's or in collaboration.
(40:58):
You know in community and youknow fortunately I've been in an
environment where it has beenvery collaborative and very much
a team kind of thing.
But understanding the people youwork with, their gifts, their
passions, their abilities, theircontribution to the kingdom is,
and then, surrounding yourself,realizing that God is the God
of the church he created andbrought together those people
(41:20):
for that time in our, in ourBethlehem Lutheran Church.
So I need to get to know them.
I need to understand who Godcreated them to be and what
their calling is and come aroundside them with what I can bring
to the fullest and doing it tothe fullest.
So I tend to think some peopleand I've done it too will hold
(41:42):
back on the strengths because Idon't feel like it's appropriate
for a second chair leader to beso strong in those things and
it's like no God, god, that'show he created me and so just
doing that to the absolutefullest.
I think it is a part of all, apart of that conflicting.
Well, all of the things that wewere talking about are all of
(42:03):
all of those things that areWell.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
you've done very well , sandy.
I'm so grateful for you.
Last question.
Last question what do you lovemost about being in the Lutheran
Church Missouri Synod and wheredo you think we need to grow as
a church body?
Words of encouragement andchallenge.
Let's close.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I love, I mean I love the Lutheran
Church Missouri Synod.
You know, been born raised, youknow all of that thing
throughout my life, so it's whatI know, so there's comfort in
that.
But that's not why I love theLutheran Church Missouri Synod.
Our foundation on biblicalteaching, scriptural truths
(42:42):
permeating our theology and ourlife, is what I love, and that
we're not afraid and we don'tback down on things that are
truth, that are from God's word,and so that's what I love about
the Lutheran Church MissouriSynod.
Where I think we need to bechallenged is finding a way to
(43:04):
provide that biblical truth andfoundation in a way that people
can receive it right.
So that's all in.
So that's all in.
How do we deliver the truth, howdo we deliver God's word?
And I think we're stuck in.
It must be done one way thatour heritage and our wonderful
(43:27):
heritage and culture drive usmore and our practices drive us
too much.
I think we have to look atother ways.
How can the truth of God's word, the biblical foundation that
we build our church on, bedelivered to people in a way
that they can hear it?
And that takes a lot ofcreativity.
(43:50):
You're doing that with.
You know who's the curator ofthe word and how we deliver it.
It's our seminaries.
But is that the only way thatthat can be delivered?
I think there's a lot of waysthat God's word can be delivered
, that we think there's a lot ofways that God's word can be
delivered that we have toexplore.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
And that's our challenge.
I think so.
I think it's understanding andrespecting and rejoicing in
various contexts and trusting,then, leaders in their context
who have been raised up, most ofus in the same same system,
right, whether it's theConcordias or our seminaries,
and, yeah, we, we have the same,the same confession.
(44:32):
The struggle, the struggle is,I'll just be pointed, is my, my
vows, ordination vows, were notactually to the synod
constitution and bylaws, right,they were to the scripture and
the Lutheran confessions andbylaws, just as they've changed.
In our congregation, I mean, wedid a complete overhaul and I'm
(44:55):
saying the LCMS is way morecomplex than one congregation,
to be sure, but bylaws canchange, the process can change,
and how does it change?
It changes through hopefullywinsome conversation around
areas of growth, and ourpodcasts, and the Unite
Leadership Collective in generalis just highlighting one of
those areas of growth in termsof leadership development,
(45:17):
raising up local leaders, andthere's other areas.
But our call, especiallybecause the Valley is growing,
you know, in Maricopa County weget a thousand new people a week
right now moving in, movinginto Maricopa County, we've got
some work to do.
Well, yeah, the gospel needs toget in their hands, exactly.
(45:37):
The gospel needs to get intotheir ears and believed in their
, in their hearts.
And it's going to take allsorts of people doing all sorts
of different things and we thinkthat Lutherans should be in the
kingdom expanding churchplanning movement rather than
just a lot of the non-denomsthat understand system structure
, scale leadership development.
Raised up Craig Groeschel,actually at Life Church Now
(46:01):
we're not an altar pulpitfellowship, obviously with Life
Church, but he was askedrecently for all of your
different campus pastors, wewould think of them more as like
a campus director, because he'sdoing the primary and I'm not
getting into the video debateright now in terms of preaching.
But he was asked do you go to,like, where do you find your
people?
And he goes.
(46:22):
Well, it's not the seminary,because we do it a certain way
here in LifeChurch and so weneed to have seen the character
of Christ around the sharedculture, value system mission at
LifeChurch and so obviouslywe're going to raise up our
future campus pastors internally, you know.
But right now I mean for thisconversation I get labeled a
(46:45):
liberal because I'm talkingabout leadership development at
the local level.
That's unusual to me, becauseif you listen to our preaching
and teaching, we're anything butliberal, sandy, any take there.
Speaker 2 (46:56):
I hear you, I hear you with that.
So this group of people that Iwas with this week and I'm
telling them what I do, and theysaid you know, in our church
we'd call you a pastor, so youknow, they just it's just a
different kind of frame ofreference and we've got a system
that that makes it happen.
But you know what's the mainthing we want to get?
We want to get people knowingand loving Jesus.
(47:18):
Yeah, that's it.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
What's your prayer for women who lead, whether it's
deaconess, dce, teacheradministrator.
Speaker 2 (47:28):
What is your prayer for women leading the LCMS,
Sandy?
Yeah, yeah, so I.
My prayer is that they're in aplace that they can be who God
created them to be, that theycan live that out fully.
Yeah, that they know theirimportant place in kingdom work.
That it is important that theycan use their gifts and
(47:51):
abilities fully to give glory toGod and that they can teach
others to do the same.
And, honestly, that's my prayerfor men too.
Speaker 1 (48:01):
The church sounds like a good prayer for all
humans and women.
I'm so grateful for you, Sandy.
This has been super fun.
If people want to connect withyou and your ministry, how can
they do so?
Speaker 2 (48:13):
Yeah, BethlehemLutheranChurchcom.
No, BethlehemDenvercom is ourwebsite.
Speaker 1 (48:21):
And yeah, of course, email or whatever, you're a dear
friend, thanks for saying yesto do this with me.
Speaker 2 (48:26):
Yeah having fun talking with you about the
church and what you'repassionate about.
No question.
Speaker 1 (48:31):
Yeah, it's good.
This is the Tim Allman Podcast,and Sandy tell Tim hey for me.
Thanks for allowing me to beone of your top five Tims.
That's cool.
Speaker 2 (48:41):
I'm grateful for that I know a lot more.
You're the top five, so I wantthat to be seen as a compliment.
Speaker 1 (48:46):
Uh, thank you, sister Well this is a podcast.
Thank you, and please like,subscribe, comment, share, share
, comments and, uh, pleasesubscribe to whatever channel is
you listen.
That really helps get the wordout.
And comments and even if youdisagree with something that we
said, right, comments reallyhelp move the conversation
forward in the Jesus Uniteddirection.
(49:07):
To make him known.
The days are too short to doanything.
Otherwise, it's a good day.
Go make it a great day.
Thanks so much, sandy.
Welcome to Tim Wallman Podcast.
It's a beautiful day to bealive.
Pray, the joy of Jesus is yourstrength as I get to hang out
with one of my favorite humanson planet Earth.
This leader impacted my journeymore than she probably knows,
and her husband as well.
You know, when you're in thoseearly years of trying to do
something for the first time andyou know, you know you're not
(00:26):
very good at it and you got someopportunities for growth you
need those kind encouragers,friends, who are just a little
bit ahead of you on the journey,to give you courage and to care
for one another.
And I get to hang out withSandy Wendelin today.
She has been a 41-year directorof Christian education.
(00:47):
She has worn a ridiculousamount of hats all in one
congregation my first callingcongregation out of seminary
Bethlehem Lutheran Church andSchool United in Mission in
Lakewood, colorado.
So how are you doing, sandy?
What a joy to be with you.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Yeah, I'm good, good.
What a Colorado.
So how are you doing, sandy?
What a joy to be with you.
Yeah, I'm good, good.
What a wonderful introduction,and I get to call you one of my
five favorite Tims.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
You've got a lot of Tims in your life.
She's very good.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
A lot of fabulous Tims in my life, and number one,
of course, being my husband.
Yeah, you fall behind him.
Oh well, thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
I'm overjoyed for our conversation today.
Let's hunt the good stuff as weget going.
Sandy, right now, what are youmost passionate about in
ministry?
Let's start there.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Yeah, yeah, and that that's so fun to think about
because I am passionate aboutministry right now and that's a
great place to be.
You know, there's moments,there's ebbs and flows where
you're not, and I'm in a goodplace right now where I am.
So a couple of really excitingthings are happening as a
Bethlehem church body that I canget really jazzed about, get
(01:52):
really behind.
One is just the possibility ofexpanding our kind of footprint
on the west side of Denver.
We've been talking with achurch that's just not doing so
well and the pastor's been therea number of years.
He's ready to move on and justkind of doesn't know how to do
that.
So he may know how to do it,but he just doesn't want to do
(02:14):
it quite yet.
And so we're talking aboutpartnering with them, coming
alongside and kind of bringingthe Bethlehem who we are and our
good, solid systems into placein another congregation and then
maybe even thinking about whatdoes that mean for some other
congregations in our area thatmight be in that same place, and
(02:37):
can we take a healthy system,healthy church system, and help
other churches get to that placeas well?
So I get jazzed about being apart of that.
Definitely I get really excitedand this will sound funny about
hiring.
I am passionate about hiringpeople.
Right now I'm doing a lot ofhiring for our Early Learning
(02:59):
Center, our summer camp and ourbefore and after school program,
so got to hire I think it's 11people in the next month.
And you know what's so greatabout hiring?
It's leadership development,right.
You start right there, it'sfrom the outside, and bringing
them on in.
And so, yeah, just finding outwho people are, what their
(03:20):
passions, their gifts are, theirtalents, bring it into a
conversation and seeing what wehave available and matching that
up and making a good match andbringing them on board and
helping them become a part ofthe ministry.
And that's exciting, yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
I love it.
I love it.
Well, I got two follow-upquestions based on that.
When you use the word systems,Sandy, what do you mean by
systems?
This is a leadership podcast,so we care about culture, system
and structures, big, why,mission, vision, values, all of
all of those types of things.
When you use systems, some somechurch leaders are like I don't
even know what that that means.
Could you drill down a littlebit in terms of your
(03:57):
understanding of systems?
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Yeah, so I mean, there's there's so many ways of
looking at that, but what I'mtalking about is, you know,
churches do the preaching,teaching right.
That's why we existed.
Administration of thesacraments and that's important,
that's the main thing, that'swhy we come together happen that
(04:21):
maintains the building, thatprovides the IT so that we can
communicate with our people.
That, yeah, that just makesministry happen.
So there's that kind ofinternal structure and systems.
(04:42):
And then there and you know,I'm thinking about like what our
executive director does, soit's oversight of the facilities
and HR and IT and all of thosekinds of things.
So those are kind of theinternal systems.
And then I think about how wedeliver ministry, so how people
(05:03):
come to connect with Jesus inthis place.
So we think of discipleship andwe think of leadership
development or recruitment ofvolunteers, those kinds of
things.
Those are all the systems thatI talk about.
And so, while we're strong insome of those things, we still
have to shore up some of thosethings.
But I'll tell you, thinkingabout doing it in another place
(05:25):
really motivates you towards,towards movement.
You know you really get excitedabout, uh, uh, shoring
everything up.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of conversation right now
Thank you for that Uh going onbetween churches who are looking
to to care for one another, andyou know we're in a we're in a
couple of differentconversations right now with
potential mergers and, um, yeah,that's we're.
We're kind of slow playing that, sandy, to be quite honest,
it's uh, it's not something towalk into inadvisedly or lightly
(05:55):
.
That sounds like language,right, uh, but but reverently,
deliberately, like uh, to pullback, because you, you take a
number of the stories, right,our cultures are based on this
kind of shared story of whatthat ministry did and that
shared story does not yourshared story at Bethlehem moving
(06:16):
into another place or for we atChrist Greenfield into another
place.
That's a very difficult move.
We're working on our long-rangemulti-site strategy right now,
making sure everything's shoredup.
Shout out to the Unstuck Group.
They worked with Redeemer inFort Collins, a number of other
LCMS congregations and obviouslybeyond, and they gave some data
(06:38):
in terms of mergers.
That is pretty alarming howinfrequently they work well,
really.
Yeah, they're like it's adifficult thing and obviously
you're like if this is going towork, there needs to be the end
of one thing and the start ofanother thing.
But you're still there in thatplace where that other
(07:02):
organization has years, decadesand decades of memory, and it's
just, it's challenging.
It requires a lot of EQ skills,a lot of time and trust to even
to even get there, and fromtheir perspective, they'd much
rather launch something new in anew place with a brand new, new
memory.
Not that it can't work, it'sjust to be entered into
(07:24):
advisedly.
I'm not saying that to give youany instruction.
I'm actually giving myself moreinstruction because I really, I
really want to, I really want topartner.
You know, and you really wantto care, but it's but it's
difficult Any any more.
Follow-up to that, sandy.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Yeah, well, you know you talk about family systems,
okay, and that whole familysystems theory that can be
applied to the church too.
You know, there's, like you,like you're saying, there's that
history, there's that sharedstory, there's the joys and the
challenges that have occurred,the hurts, the wounds, the
damage, as well as thecelebrations and and yeah, how
(08:00):
do you do that?
And the way that we're talkingabout is really kind of what you
suggest that we realize that wehave to acknowledge, recognize,
celebrate where people havebeen and give people an
opportunity to adjust to, maybe,where they need to go and what
they need to do in light of anew reality, of a new reality
(08:29):
and um, and then really kind ofcome in and say this is, it is a
new, it's a new day, um, yeah,In light, in light of all that.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
but yeah, it's crazy stuff here's, here's.
The thing to consider is likethere's the asset of a property.
That is significant, you know,in markets like ours where
property is expensive.
That's one of the primaryreasons why partnering with
other churches is winsome isbecause we don't have to.
Maybe there's a partnership andless expensive.
(08:53):
It's just less expensive tolaunch a church that way.
So definitely not a no, butmaybe and we'll see how it goes
is kind of our perspective rightnow.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Yeah, yeah, Well, and we're slowing down a little bit
on it.
The pastor isn't, you know he'snot there yet because he's
working through all of thisstuff, right yeah?
And so, yeah, we're slowingdown and God will use that.
There's an opportunity to saywho do we need to be?
Where do we need to be?
(09:22):
What is God doing in this timeof not yet?
Right yeah?
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Let's uh, let's get into your story a little bit.
I really wanted to go down thehiring piece, but there's so
much more to share about yourstory.
Um so, as you look back at howyou've evolved as a leader, 41
years at one congregation isamazing.
What are three things thatyou're most proud of, Sandy, in
your ministry journey?
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Yeah, thanks, thanks for asking.
I don't know that this is thefirst thing that I should lead
with proud of, but what I'mjoy-filled about and feel
blessed about is that I actuallyhave been in this space, in
this place.
I'm called to this church thathas allowed me to serve here for
so long, to be a leader, to bea woman in ministry, all of
those things.
So I'm so grateful forBethlehem.
(10:12):
So I'll start with that andthen I think of some things that
have happened along the waythat just I didn't know.
You know we all get intoministry we don't know, we don't
know how God's going to use us,what's going to happen, and all
of that and some of the thingsthat just have brought me joy
along the way.
Lifelight We've had LifeLightat Bethlehem 35 years started
(10:34):
with your father in law actually, yeah, back in the day when he
was hanging out here.
Yeah, started.
That little ministry grew to,you know, a ministry that 250
people would be in the word on aweekend in small groups, all of
that.
What I love about that is,before, the leadership pipeline
was even language that anybodywould use.
(10:55):
That's how we set up LifeLight.
We had leaders.
We had, you know, groups.
We had leaders.
We had we called them somethingdifferent but we had coaches
and we had a director and itworked.
You know it freed up staff.
I mean it was enabling laypeople to move into leadership
roles and really do some amazingthings.
I would say, because of that, Iconsider and I didn't do the
(11:16):
preaching teaching part of that,I didn't not the teaching part
of that Pastor Langwish doesthat so but I built the
structure around it andmaintained that over the years
in various levels.
So just that Bethlehem is nowwhat I would consider a
biblically literate placebecause of a ministry where
(11:37):
people are in the Word, and it'smorphed.
Now it's not as structured asit has been and we're doing it
in homes now.
You know Bible study inpeople's homes and Bible study
via Zoom and all of that.
So you know it's come alongwith the times and so that's
great.
So Life Flight is a cool thing.
I love so much about the churchand I love serving in the church
(12:02):
.
I love being a part of thechurch.
I like just I love the churchso much and I have had an
opportunities and this might bea metaphor of building the
church.
I've served on four buildingcommittees and that I've loved,
that.
It actually has been so muchfun seeing this building change
(12:22):
and then getting to do thedecorating and all of that kind
of stuff.
So you know, that's a that's apart of my evolution as a leader
is, you know, learning how towork in that kind of environment
, in that kind of world.
And I would say, probably thething that has brought me the
(12:43):
most joy and was totallyunexpected, you know, you said
I've worn many hats, but I lovedthat time I got to work with
our early learning center forjust a minute it was supposed to
be a year, it turned out to beseven taking it from a one room,
one teacher kind of situationin our school to, at that time
(13:05):
it was four years and about 10teachers serving, you know, four
times the amount of kids thatwe started out with and now
they've even grown beyond thatwhere our preschool is the
largest part of our ministry.
But yeah, that was anunexpected little path, but who
knew, you know, and just it wasso good.
So, yeah, just all of thosethings kind of shape you in
(13:28):
leadership and I think that'spart of you know, an attribute
of being adaptable, and theycall me the gap filler around
here.
You know you need somethingdone.
You know I'll fill that gap fora minute.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
Sandy, you're I've told you this before, but maybe
not publicly You're a tremendousleader.
I know your identity rests inChrist, but he made you so
adaptable.
People love being on your teams.
I remember my early years beingon your discipleship team,
ministry action team and gettingto think through small groups
(14:03):
and Bible studies, integratedwith LifeLight, like you were
just talking about, and youwould host us at your home.
I remember some kind of visionstrategic retreats you'd host at
your home.
I mean you were ahead of thecurve on so many different
levels in terms of teamleadership and I just want to go
deeper into that.
What are your primary values forleading a team?
(14:26):
Well, because you build trust,you build consensus, you build
on vision and then you movetoward execution.
That's how God created SandyWendland, and the church is way,
way better for it.
And just sitting at your feet Imean getting to watch you work
over the years was just such anextreme pleasure, because I
don't think I've told you this,but a lot of the way you led is
(14:48):
how.
Then, when the Lord called mehere to Christ Greenfield 12
years ago, it was just like inme, and it wasn't because I
needed those first five years atBethlehem and I honestly look
at I wish it had been longerbecause I had way more to learn
with you.
But I'm just being a part ofyour team, carried over.
You have a multiplying effectwith the people that you you
(15:08):
work with.
So what are some of thosecharacteristics that make for
good team leadership in yourestimations, andy?
Speaker 2 (15:13):
Yeah, I think you have to know where you're going.
No, that's the first thing.
What's the vision?
What estimations, andy?
Yeah, I think you have to knowwhere you're going.
No, that's the first thing.
What's the vision?
What do we want to accomplishhere?
And connecting that to what Godwants us to accomplish together
in a place yeah, helping orequipping people to understand
what that vision is, becausethat's going to get messed with
so often.
You know, whenever there'sproblems, whenever there's
(15:37):
conflict, whenever there'sdifficulty, the vision gets
messed with, and so theleadership has to be keeping
that the main thing all the time.
What does God want us to do inthis place at this time and what
are what this team is doing toaccomplish that?
So that just has to be rightout there, doing, doing to
(15:58):
accomplish that, so that justhas to be right out there.
And then working with withfolks to just realize who they
are and how God has created them, and celebrating that.
Well, first of all, helpingthem explore it.
You know everybody comes intointo any kind of role really
hesitant and, especially in thechurch, like they want to do it
right.
Right, they don't want todishonor God or do something
(16:22):
wrong or feel like the churchdoesn't appreciate them.
People want to do things right,but really what they need to be
focusing on is you know, whodid God create them to be, what
are their gifts, what's theirpassion, what has God planted in
them, what's their personality,style, all of those things and
helping them to celebrate thatand to say I can use that to the
(16:44):
church functions best is is ina team environment.
Um, yeah, I'm trying to thinkof other things that are are
important in that, you know,celebrating together, being, um,
(17:06):
working alongside each other,just shoulder to shoulder,
serving, you know, andencouraging each other, building
each other up and when there'sdifficulty, but yeah, no, that's
so good.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
I love your story and I know there have been really
really great times and reallyreally hard times.
As you look back, obviously youknow you're sensitive to
everything and you want to putthe best construction.
But what are, what are some ofthose moments?
And let's just hunt the hardstuff here just for a minute.
What was the hardest part aboutbeing at Bethlehem for as long
(17:40):
as you've been there, sandy?
Speaker 2 (17:42):
Yeah, you know, you know that there have been
probably three times that I'vebeen on the brink, just on the
brink of saying this isn't myplace anymore.
God, are you calling me away?
And yet I think in those timeshe wasn't calling me away, it
(18:04):
was me thinking I needed toleave because obviously I'm not
gone.
So he still puts that stamp,that call on you to stay, call
(18:27):
on you to stay.
And yeah, those times are whensomething in me has been pushed
or challenged to the edge and Ididn't know how to, how to
overcome it.
I just didn't know how to towork around it, how to get um,
get beyond it.
And you know that that comesdown to to conflict.
You know, between people,basically Um, so those, those
(18:47):
are um, those are the hard times.
And um, when you can't, whenyou can't get to the other side
of a conflict, cause conflict's,neutral right, nothing.
There doesn't have to beconflict, doesn't have to be bad
when there's difficulty.
But there comes a time when theneeds aren't met.
You know what's behind conflictis unmet needs.
And so when, whatever my needis, or vision, or whatever, and
(19:10):
if it, if that doesn't occur,sometimes there's a bypass and
you have to part ways and thenwork through, you know, with God
, you know how this is all, whythis has happened, and you know
part of coming to the other sideof that is resilience and
(19:33):
learning what God has for you onthe other side of it.
But, yeah, the difficult timesat Bethlehem, I think, just
squeeze you into the again, theperson that God is creating you
to be for him, for you and forhis purpose.
So early days were usuallyaround structural kinds of when
(19:57):
I got systems kinds of thingslike you know the boards bug you
or do something or the councilis weird.
You know you have to deal withthem.
There's always conflict and thesad thing is there's often
conflict with pastors and theother workers.
(20:18):
We're in that very uniquesituation in that we have many,
many staff, you know.
So there's a lead pastor andthen there's a lot of second
chair kind of people, a lot ofdirector level kind of people,
and so, yeah, there's oftentimesconflict there.
(20:40):
Dces often leave ministrywithin the first five to seven
years because of conflict withpastors right.
And yeah, and not knowing how toget to the other side of that,
and so and those are, honestly,those have been my pressure
points along the way um havebeen, have been with, with
(21:00):
senior pastor yeah, whom Idearly love.
Right, that's what's behind,yeah, stay.
What's behind all of that?
You know you've got your things, but behind all of that is a
love for the church, a love forour savior and a love for the
person, and yet you perseverethrough that.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Amen.
Hey, let's talk your philosophyof conflict and just go a
little bit deeper.
When are you one?
Are you a fighter?
You get out of it.
Are you freezing, fawning, likewhat are some of your?
When the amygdala hijack,inevitably happens, and which
happens?
You get triggered.
Your values collide withanother person's values, like
(21:41):
how have you come to know yourautomatic responses and how have
you learned to kind of regulatethose automatic responses
toward a direction that's morehealthy, that brings unity,
listening, care andcollaboration?
Could you talk about that,sandy?
Speaker 2 (21:59):
listening, care and collaboration.
Could you talk about that,sandy?
Yeah, absolutely, um.
So such a timely question.
We just had an off-site retreatlast week.
The topic was conflict, so weuse the thompson killman um, you
know model, so I'm not aware.
Tell me about it, you're notokay, so that you, you actually
mentioned the attributes thatare in that particular conflict.
So do you move to competing,collaborating, compromising,
(22:20):
avoiding, accommodating.
So you look at what is yourassertiveness.
You know how they're always ona scale.
So there's the assertivenesspart of the scale and then
there's the cooperative part ofthe scale.
I'm highly assertive, I'm onthe cooperative scale kind of
right here.
I'm highly assertive, I'm onthe cooperative scale kind of
right here.
So and so I kind of land inthat competing quadrant as my
(22:43):
natural, my natural place.
When conflict arises, I want tofight, you know.
So when I'm threatened, there'sthe fight, fight, flight, fawn
and freeze and I'll go.
I'll go to fight.
You know that's my natural,that's my natural place.
And so, realizing that, so thatparticular model will say,
(23:09):
while you have a natural placethat you land in conflict, your
goal is to understand others intheir conflict and adapt, right,
modify, so that you can get tothe heart of the matter, so that
you can actually haveconversation.
And so, while my naturalposition might be competing, I
(23:34):
might need to realize thatcollaboration needs to happen in
that situation, that competingisn't going to be helpful
because if I'm with somebodythat's competitive also.
So this is where PL PastorLanglish and I will be.
He's competitive, I'mcompetitive, we'll come at it.
We'll go into conflict and wealmost enjoy the fight.
(23:57):
I don't that might be anextreme, but we can get to that
place of just do the conflictingbecause we need to just get it
all out and all of that and wecan move on.
Others around us are like whoa,what just happened?
There Are Sandy and Peele.
Okay, are they going to be ableto?
Speaker 1 (24:16):
you know, work together and you know it's like
Like no, we've done this ahundred times in the last 41,.
You know this is a normal thing.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
I remember being in meetings.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
I remember being in meetings with you early on and I
was like, wow, this isfascinating.
I almost wanted to get somepopcorn and just kind of sit
back and watch it.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
go on, if you can manage your emotions that way,
then it's really good.
But you know, we have a lot ofreally really wonderful, tender
people who are like thatconflict is going to result in
separation, Right, and so youhave to realize that you know,
(24:56):
um, understanding that my needto conflict this way and and
fight because I feel somethingis threatened is, um, is not
always the most helpful way.
So, you know, I I like to getto.
You know, regulating theemotions, that's a, that's a
crazy one.
So, yeah, we not only did wejust have that that little
(25:17):
session, but then yesterday Ihad a difficult conflict with a
staff person, someone on thelead team, and so, yeah, I'm
thinking about conflict and I'mlike that did not end well, and
the thing I had to go back to soI had to go back to everything
that I know in myself in dealingwith conflict is I've got to
get gritty about it.
(25:37):
You know, I got to keep the mainthing, the main thing I've got
to, you know, work towards mywhat's my passion, and I've got
to persevere through this in away that it can be received
towards the end, which is unitywith this person, Having my need
, my concern heard and thenresponded to the person froze,
(26:00):
totally, froze totally said I'llthink about that or no, maybe
I'll think about that, Like okay, yeah, so there we sat, so it's
unresolved conflict, right, butI had to remove my emotion from
it and that's hard.
And that's hard, yeah, that'shard.
So that's self-regulation Again, bringing all things in my
(26:24):
world together.
I just came off aChrist-centered, trauma-informed
yoga retreat and we're talkingabout regulating and the body
tells the story.
Right, the issues are in thetissues.
So you've got, you've got allthis stuff that your, your body
holds when you don't let theemotions start to to be.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
And it is a risk, but it's a calculated risk and I
think it's a risk worth takingto share what you saw and you
can't control how other peoplerespond to what you saw.
(27:07):
And I would much rather ifwe're, because the church
generally and I have research onthis for my doctor the church
generally is an overly passiveplace.
We think a lot of things but wedon't say those things to one
another and that is the worst.
I mean, the conflict not had isthe worst conflict because
inevitably will explode andpeople will leave and then a lot
(27:31):
of people will be like whathappened here.
The church is epic for this,but the person's just been
stewing on it for a long periodof time having the internal
conversation that never and theyprobably have catastrophized
that other person.
They probably said and I'mgoing to put myself in that lead
person's shoes and we're beingvery general, which is very kind
, it's wonderful.
But I could be thinking rightnow, if I'm passively imbalanced
(27:52):
, sandy's the worst, like Sandy,she doesn't like me, she
doesn't see.
Sandy doesn't know what I'mgoing through, like yeah, and
that's, that's the worst youknow.
So kudos to you and to anyleader who says you know what,
if I'm going to be slightlyimbalanced, I'm going to be a
little bit more on the frankside, not on the.
There's a, there's an extremewhere you can be a jerk, that's
(28:14):
for sure.
But you've been there for 41years.
You obviously the heart andlove of Jesus Do, you do you go
too far sometimes in thatconversation, maybe, but I'd
much rather I'm just saying I'dmuch rather be there than on the
overly passive side.
Anything more to say there,sandy?
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Yeah.
So what happens when you don'tyou know, when you don't bring
something to light, you knowit's like, it's like staying in
the darkness and we know thatthat's not healthy.
That's where Satan lives and,yeah, you need to bring things
to the light and that has tohappen in individuals, that has
to happen in the church, it hasto happen in all places.
(28:52):
I think that you know, when welook at the church, it
(29:14):
definitely we definitely have,as a church body, dealt with
conflict and difficulty andwhat's important to us, what's
in our heart, in a way that hasnot moved us forward right, has
kept things under the water andand sometimes even that fawn.
So you know, we always thinkflight, fight, flight and freeze
.
Yeah, freeze.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
But that fawn, talk about fawning.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, talk aboutfawning.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
I'm just going to accommodate, I'm just going to
go along with the flow.
I'm just along with the flow.
I'm just it's easier to to umback away and say all is good
when the the, the real thingthat needs to be addressed to
move the kingdom forward, is notaddressed and so it's slow.
I think that's why we become soslow in in being able to move,
(29:54):
you know, being able to dowhat's absolutely important for
the church, yeah being able tomove, you know, being able to do
what's absolutely important forthe church?
Speaker 1 (30:03):
Yeah, that that, in terms of family systems, that is
the posture of the abused loverin the home.
They the, the alcoholic, theaddict, the abuser, whatever is
there, and the person justdevelops a kind of a numbness.
There's no vision for thefuture, there's no ability to
speak for self, and so they'rejust flat.
Uh, yeah, it's gonna happenagain.
It just is.
It just is what it is, but Idon't have any.
There's no hope.
(30:23):
I mean, it's a hopeless place tobe I think the fond
characteristic is actually worse, because freezing actually
allows you, hopefully, to think,to move from amygdala to your
prefrontal cortex and tostrategize.
How frank or not do I need tobe right now to keep a solid
sense of self?
But the fawning.
I think the fawning feature hasnot been delved into enough as
(30:45):
it relates to the ministry ofthe local church.
It could be the lay leaderwho's been looking at things for
so long.
Why does not just the pastor butthe board or whatever?
And they're just like well, youknow, why does not just the
pastor but the board or whatever?
And they're just like well, itis what it is.
And then they just occupy a pewfor years and well then,
eventually and this has happenedI don't like no one really
(31:06):
actually cares that I'm here, Ilead in the marketplace in a
pretty healthy direction, butwell oh well, no one cares about
my perspective.
And then they're eventuallyjust gone and people like
where'd Frank go?
You know well, frank wasfawning in the pews for years,
but with not with no ability tobe heard or his vision to be
shared, because conflict was soavoided in the local
(31:27):
congregation.
Anything more to say there,sandy?
Speaker 2 (31:29):
Yeah, yeah, well, and I've been thinking a lot about
church hurt these days, you know, and that's that's how it
happens.
You know, I didn't getsomething I needed from the
church and whatever that is, youknow it might've been Grandpa
Smith wasn't visited in thehospital in his final days, and
I expect the church to do that.
(31:50):
I didn't get communion when Iwas at home, whatever it was, or
my prayer was missed in churchand I thought you would pray for
me, or it might be that, youknow, whatever, whatever people
leave for all this whole rangeof reasons, and I think it is
(32:13):
because and perhaps it's becausewe don't have an environment
where we encourage people to toconflict or to even share what's
on their mind.
But yeah, they just, it justsits there and festers and then
they go away.
And yeah, when things just boil, when things just fester,
(32:35):
they'll boil up, they'll comeout at some point, right?
Speaker 1 (32:37):
So it's tragic, sandy , because eternity is on the
line here.
Yeah, right, when things justfester, they'll boil up.
They'll come out at some point,right?
Well, it's tragic, sandy,because eternity is on the line
here.
Yeah, right, I mean peoplecould walk away from not just
the church but from Jesus ifwe're not more comfortable and
competent at handling difficultconversations.
And first one of the cross wins.
Right, I have to get to myperspective.
Where I have some sort of thisis the book Difficult
(32:59):
Conversations.
I own some contribution to thedysfunction.
Can I get to my level ofcontribution to this dysfunction
?
My intent was good, but the waymy execution may have been poor
in some way shape or form.
Maybe trust hadn't beendeveloped enough.
That's my favorite.
Do you trust me If I'm headinginto difficult conversations
Sometimes?
I mean it sounds kind of cheesyto a degree.
(33:22):
Do you trust me?
I really care for you, you'revaluable here, your contribution
is so impactful.
And then I kind of just thequicker I can just say whatever
it is that needs to be adjusted,that needs to be adjusted, and
then just be quiet and let thespirit kind of work.
The odds of that relationshipgrowing are so much stronger.
(33:44):
And then they come back and say, hey, I didn't have the right
information or you said it in away that I wasn't prepared for.
Oh, that wasn't my intention,please forgive me.
And we do.
And then we move forward.
We move forward throughconflict.
Is growth through stress,through, I thinking, resistance
training?
Right, you're into working out.
(34:05):
Through resistance training,those muscles get stronger and
and the body in turn gets getsstronger.
It's not in and around our art.
We're going to get to ourchurch body, but we have
embraced passive, aggressivebehavior in our church body and
it's very dysfunctional.
We don't talk to people.
We talk about people to other,to other people.
And, yeah, it's a.
It's an opportunity for us togrow and to work from places of
(34:29):
commonality.
Right, cause it just with yourstaff member.
There's so much that you shareand love about that person,
right, and you're going toresolve that conflict.
It's going to happen, probablyjust right after this podcast,
to be quite honest.
But yeah, I mean, there's somuch that you love about that
person and we're going to growin and through it.
We have to own our contributionto the inevitable struggle.
Anything more to say thereabout owning, confessing your
(34:51):
contribution to the struggle?
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Yeah, oh gosh, I think, yeah, and I think that
was the because we're not thereyet.
That was a disappointing partwith my staff person, right, is
I it?
You got to own a little bit ofit.
I'll own a lot of it.
Yeah, yeah, it's, it's.
Pride is a real thing.
Pride is a real thing, isn't it?
Speaker 1 (35:13):
Right and we don't like to confess.
Let's be honest, we're like thekid caught with his hand in the
cookie jar.
Crumbs are all over our faceand it's very evident.
But there's something in methat keeps me from confessing
and I'm a firstborn type Adriven and that's been probably
the biggest learning for me isgrowing and sitting in the midst
(35:36):
of and actually finding joy in,in hunting my contribution to
this struggle and I find joy init because in the other side of
it there's more trust andthere's growth.
We always get better as aministry.
Anything more there, Sandy,Always.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Yeah, always yeah.
And just back to that trustthing that you know, trust just
doesn't happen by saying thewords right, yeah, that that
comes in relationship, thatcomes in spending time together,
by, um, yeah, working throughthings together.
And so we talk around hereabout conflicting.
Well, and when you conflict,well then trust is built.
(36:14):
You know, I think that comes onthe other side of doing hard
things together, and not onlyhard things but good things.
So playing together buildstrust, you know.
So in the church you do thingslike you meet regularly, you
play regularly, you prayregularly, you eat together.
(36:35):
You know you share life witheach other.
That's the stuff that buildstrust.
And, yeah, and that can't beprescribed, that can't be
ritualized or whatever.
You just have to create theenvironments for that to happen.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
Well, you use the word ritual.
Rituals are always forrelationship.
This is why we do our liturgy.
We have our standard.
Ritual gives comfort.
And you mentioned a ritual ofplay and retreating.
See, when I've bowled withsomeone or I've went out on
hikes with someone, or I'mthinking of other things, oh,
(37:12):
I've done competitive go-kartracing with that person, or been
in an escape room trying tosolve problems.
These are all kind of retreatthings that we do a couple,
three times.
Oh, played pickleball with thatperson.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
You know, like were you around when we took the
Jeeps up the hill, yeah, andthen we all had to drive that.
I had to drive a Jeep down amountain.
I don't know how to drive aJeep down a mountain, so good so
what that does is it buildscorporate memory.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
I've done these fun, adventurous things with that
person and so I don't.
I can kind of depersonalize theissue.
It's not just about Sandy.
No, it's about something we'retrying to solve together because
we always want to make theperson the problem.
No, no, no, the person is notthe problem.
This problem is the problem theway it was evolved, but it
doesn't make you, because weobviously, in conflict, always
(38:00):
want to go to identity.
Right, if you come at thisthing that I did or said, that
means not only did I dosomething that's bad, but I am
bad, and you're just affirmingwhat my parents said or my coach
said or whatever, and we'rebuilding this whole big
narrative in our head, right?
No, no, no, let's just talkabout the problem.
We've done fun things together,we've laughed together, we've
(38:20):
cried through hard timestogether.
Let's just work on this on thisstruggle together.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
We've cried through hard times together.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
Let's just work on this, on this struggle together.
Sandy, anything more there wewant to?
Yeah, exactly, no, it's good,that was good Voluntary.
Hey, let's, let's come down thehomestretch here.
Let's talk second chairleadership.
There's a lot of leaders, youknow, commissioned ministers and
I'm right now thinking we'regoing to have a conversation
around commission ministers andtheir voice in Synod and they
felt, you know, you've maybefelt like your voice isn't
always heard, and I think,whether you're an assistant or
(38:51):
associate pastor, maybe thatkind of victim mentality can
kind of be there as well.
How have you been able tomaintain and I know you've
coached others in maintainingthe right posture as a second
chair leader, sandy?
Speaker 2 (39:06):
Yeah, so I actually, you know, part of what I realize
is that in our environment wehave a lot of second chair
leaders.
I mentioned that and so we'reunique in that most churches in
the LCMS have a pastor, and ifthey're big enough, they might
have a second person and thatwould be a second chair leader.
(39:29):
We have a whole cadre of secondchair leaders.
So it's a whole different kindof environment.
So I look at it more as how doI lead up or influence up and
lead down?
Yeah, so it's the lead up andlead down thing.
And when I think about leadingup, that's more about
(39:50):
influencing and it is more abouthow do I understand those that
are above me?
And so it is coming to gripsand comfort with the fact that
you are second chair, you're notthe pastor.
Yeah, so stay in your lane anduse your gifts to the fullest.
You know, that's the firstthing, and for me, because I've
(40:14):
struggled with this, becauseleadership is a strong gift of
mine not teaching, not preaching, not teaching, not preaching,
because leadership andadministration is so strong, to
be in a second chair is reallyhard.
You have to realize that you'resecond chair, no matter what,
(40:36):
and so the skills that you haveto develop, to lead up are very
different.
How can I be?
I have to ask the question howcan I be a part of a shared
vision?
How can I be a part of the nextsteps, realizing that that
still has to come from firstchairperson?
You know some, from the pastorit's or in collaboration.
(40:58):
You know in community and youknow fortunately I've been in an
environment where it has beenvery collaborative and very much
a team kind of thing.
But understanding the people youwork with, their gifts, their
passions, their abilities, theircontribution to the kingdom is,
and then, surrounding yourself,realizing that God is the God
of the church he created andbrought together those people
(41:20):
for that time in our, in ourBethlehem Lutheran Church.
So I need to get to know them.
I need to understand who Godcreated them to be and what
their calling is and come aroundside them with what I can bring
to the fullest and doing it tothe fullest.
So I tend to think some peopleand I've done it too will hold
(41:42):
back on the strengths because Idon't feel like it's appropriate
for a second chair leader to beso strong in those things and
it's like no God, god, that'show he created me and so just
doing that to the absolutefullest.
I think it is a part of all, apart of that conflicting.
Well, all of the things that wewere talking about are all of
(42:03):
all of those things that areWell.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
you've done very well , sandy.
I'm so grateful for you.
Last question.
Last question what do you lovemost about being in the Lutheran
Church Missouri Synod and wheredo you think we need to grow as
a church body?
Words of encouragement andchallenge.
Let's close.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I love, I mean I love the Lutheran
Church Missouri Synod.
You know, been born raised, youknow all of that thing
throughout my life, so it's whatI know, so there's comfort in
that.
But that's not why I love theLutheran Church Missouri Synod.
Our foundation on biblicalteaching, scriptural truths
(42:42):
permeating our theology and ourlife, is what I love, and that
we're not afraid and we don'tback down on things that are
truth, that are from God's word,and so that's what I love about
the Lutheran Church MissouriSynod.
Where I think we need to bechallenged is finding a way to
(43:04):
provide that biblical truth andfoundation in a way that people
can receive it right.
So that's all in.
So that's all in.
How do we deliver the truth, howdo we deliver God's word?
And I think we're stuck in.
It must be done one way thatour heritage and our wonderful
(43:27):
heritage and culture drive usmore and our practices drive us
too much.
I think we have to look atother ways.
How can the truth of God's word, the biblical foundation that
we build our church on, bedelivered to people in a way
that they can hear it?
And that takes a lot ofcreativity.
(43:50):
You're doing that with.
You know who's the curator ofthe word and how we deliver it.
It's our seminaries.
But is that the only way thatthat can be delivered?
I think there's a lot of waysthat God's word can be delivered
, that we think there's a lot ofways that God's word can be
delivered that we have toexplore.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
And that's our challenge.
I think so.
I think it's understanding andrespecting and rejoicing in
various contexts and trusting,then, leaders in their context
who have been raised up, most ofus in the same same system,
right, whether it's theConcordias or our seminaries,
and, yeah, we, we have the same,the same confession.
(44:32):
The struggle, the struggle is,I'll just be pointed, is my, my
vows, ordination vows, were notactually to the synod
constitution and bylaws, right,they were to the scripture and
the Lutheran confessions andbylaws, just as they've changed.
In our congregation, I mean, wedid a complete overhaul and I'm
(44:55):
saying the LCMS is way morecomplex than one congregation,
to be sure, but bylaws canchange, the process can change,
and how does it change?
It changes through hopefullywinsome conversation around
areas of growth, and ourpodcasts, and the Unite
Leadership Collective in generalis just highlighting one of
those areas of growth in termsof leadership development,
(45:17):
raising up local leaders, andthere's other areas.
But our call, especiallybecause the Valley is growing,
you know, in Maricopa County weget a thousand new people a week
right now moving in, movinginto Maricopa County, we've got
some work to do.
Well, yeah, the gospel needs toget in their hands, exactly.
(45:37):
The gospel needs to get intotheir ears and believed in their
, in their hearts.
And it's going to take allsorts of people doing all sorts
of different things and we thinkthat Lutherans should be in the
kingdom expanding churchplanning movement rather than
just a lot of the non-denomsthat understand system structure
, scale leadership development.
Raised up Craig Groeschel,actually at Life Church Now
(46:01):
we're not an altar pulpitfellowship, obviously with Life
Church, but he was askedrecently for all of your
different campus pastors, wewould think of them more as like
a campus director, because he'sdoing the primary and I'm not
getting into the video debateright now in terms of preaching.
But he was asked do you go to,like, where do you find your
people?
And he goes.
(46:22):
Well, it's not the seminary,because we do it a certain way
here in LifeChurch and so weneed to have seen the character
of Christ around the sharedculture, value system mission at
LifeChurch and so obviouslywe're going to raise up our
future campus pastors internally, you know.
But right now I mean for thisconversation I get labeled a
(46:45):
liberal because I'm talkingabout leadership development at
the local level.
That's unusual to me, becauseif you listen to our preaching
and teaching, we're anything butliberal, sandy, any take there.
Speaker 2 (46:56):
I hear you, I hear you with that.
So this group of people that Iwas with this week and I'm
telling them what I do, and theysaid you know, in our church
we'd call you a pastor, so youknow, they just it's just a
different kind of frame ofreference and we've got a system
that that makes it happen.
But you know what's the mainthing we want to get?
We want to get people knowingand loving Jesus.
(47:18):
Yeah, that's it.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
What's your prayer for women who lead, whether it's
deaconess, dce, teacheradministrator.
Speaker 2 (47:28):
What is your prayer for women leading the LCMS,
Sandy?
Yeah, yeah, so I.
My prayer is that they're in aplace that they can be who God
created them to be, that theycan live that out fully.
Yeah, that they know theirimportant place in kingdom work.
That it is important that theycan use their gifts and
(47:51):
abilities fully to give glory toGod and that they can teach
others to do the same.
And, honestly, that's my prayerfor men too.
Speaker 1 (48:01):
The church sounds like a good prayer for all
humans and women.
I'm so grateful for you, Sandy.
This has been super fun.
If people want to connect withyou and your ministry, how can
they do so?
Speaker 2 (48:13):
Yeah, BethlehemLutheranChurchcom.
No, BethlehemDenvercom is ourwebsite.
Speaker 1 (48:21):
And yeah, of course, email or whatever, you're a dear
friend, thanks for saying yesto do this with me.
Speaker 2 (48:26):
Yeah having fun talking with you about the
church and what you'repassionate about.
No question.
Speaker 1 (48:31):
Yeah, it's good.
This is the Tim Allman Podcast,and Sandy tell Tim hey for me.
Thanks for allowing me to beone of your top five Tims.
That's cool.
Speaker 2 (48:41):
I'm grateful for that I know a lot more.
You're the top five, so I wantthat to be seen as a compliment.
Speaker 1 (48:46):
Uh, thank you, sister Well this is a podcast.
Thank you, and please like,subscribe, comment, share, share
, comments and, uh, pleasesubscribe to whatever channel is
you listen.
That really helps get the wordout.
And comments and even if youdisagree with something that we
said, right, comments reallyhelp move the conversation
forward in the Jesus Uniteddirection.
(49:07):
To make him known.
The days are too short to doanything.
Otherwise, it's a good day.
Go make it a great day.
Thanks so much, sandy.
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