May 21, 2025 • 51 mins
Have you ever considered that God's questions might reveal more about you than your answers reveal about Him? When the Creator of the universe asks "Where are you?" or "Why do you doubt?" He's inviting us into something far deeper than a theological exercise.
Charessa Koontz joins the podcast to discuss her new book "The 17 Questions of God and the Impact on Your Life Today," exploring how divine questions transform our spiritual journey. The number 17 holds special significance for her family, connecting biblical narratives with personal experiences of loss and restoration.
• God's first question "Where are you?" invites honest confession rather than hiding in shame
• The question "Where have you come from and where are you going?" challenges us to examine our past and future with intentionality
• Theology of beauty connects to theology of place—creating spaces that orient us toward God
• Grief has become increasingly isolated in our culture, with fewer community rituals to process loss together
• Doubt isn't sinful but can lead to deeper faith when it creates curiosity that drives us toward truth
• Jesus asking Peter "Do you love me?" demonstrates how restoration follows failure through love
• The book features illustrations by Koontz's 12-year-old daughter Charity, making it truly a family project
Find "The 17 Questions of God" on Amazon or visit Charessa's website where you'll also discover her new sermon journals designed to help you engage with what God wants you to know, believe, and do each week.
Through meaningful interviews and heartfelt conversations, Friar Time, hosted by Fr....
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to the Tim Allman Podcast.
I pray.
The joy of Jesus is yourstrength today, as I get to have
, I think for the third time, asa guest on one of our ULC
podcasts, teresa Kuntz.
If you don't know her, you cango back and listen to some of
our other conversations.
We've talked about youthministry.
She has 25 years as a directorof Christian education.
As a director of Christianeducation, family life ministry
(00:23):
we both are bulldogs.
She has.
She spent man some time inboard of director positions in
across the Lutheran Church,Missouri Synod, and before that
she worked in radio and TV.
And the reason we're talkingtoday is she has a brand new
book out called the 17 Questionsof God and the Impact on your
(00:44):
Life Today and what you may findfascinating about this kind of
book, which has a journal typeformat.
If you're following on YouTube,you can see a number of these
pictures, and then you see theseillustrations on a lot of these
pages, and I just found outthat they were written by her 12
, soon to be 13 year olddaughter, charity.
So the opening questionCharissa, well before that, you
(01:06):
doing all right, life is goodLove and life.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Life is good, life is good.
Yeah, same.
How about you?
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Yeah, well, yes, jesus is on the throne, he's
good at Lent, and we'repreparing ourselves for the
upper room cross and empty tomb,so, so, so exciting.
What was it like working,though, with your daughter on
this project?
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Man, what a blessing.
This was really a family,all-in family thing.
My husband on website stuff, Imean, everybody was in on it.
But Charity just has theseincredible gifts with art and I
was like I really would love foryou to be a part of it.
It's so funny because even as ayoung person, she has a very
particular style, and so even indoing some of the illustrations
(01:47):
I'd have to go back and be like, hey, can you fix that?
And so it was kind of funnybeing like mom and boss and all
these different things.
But, man, it's been such ablessing, and what's been so
cool as a parent is watchingpeople bring the book to her and
asking her to sign it and, justlike you know, encouraging her
to continue to use her gifts.
And that's the beauty is likeher getting to see the impact of
(02:09):
her using her amazing giftsthat God has given her to really
shape and honor people with it,and so I just love that.
It's been a really big blessingfor us for sure.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Cool to give kids at that age responsibility.
So no child labor laws werebroken in the writing of this
book.
What were you able to do tokind of incentivize?
Was there an incentivizing plan?
Or she just voluntarily say,hey, I just want to be a part of
this mom.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Yeah, and it's so funny because I just was like I
would love for you to be a partof it and I have two younger
daughters and so they want toillustrate the next books and
they're like, do we get to dothe next one?
So I think they just see theimpact of it and how exciting it
is to be a part of that.
And, tim, you know, when wewent into ministry, we accepted
(02:55):
these amazing calls that Godplaced on our lives.
But our families, that's adifferent thing.
Right, they have their ownpieces of that and helping them
love and value where they showup in the world too, and so it's
just, like I said, it's been anincredible blessing and I'm
just excited, and, like I said,who knows that in the next
couple of books that you won'tsee Ellie or Bellamy drawing
(03:19):
some art in there as well?
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Do they all have artistic gifts?
Speaker 2 (03:22):
They do.
And it does not come from me,tim.
I think that's Completely frommy husband.
My husband is very good at art.
I am the worst.
When I was in Mops and theyalways had the craft project, I
literally would tell my bestfriend, like can you just make
an extra one for me?
Like I have no artistic giftsin drawing at all.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
So yeah, yeah, I mean , I think we're kind of similar
in that, like our only skill iswords.
I do very little of worth withmy hands.
But yeah, it's crazy how Godmakes our kids different.
Because my 16 year old son veryartistic, he's been drawing,
writing, animating, all thatkind of stuff, loves rap.
(04:01):
He wanted to be for a whileLike Christian I was telling you
a Christian rapper like NF, andthat's dreams kind of gone to
the wayside now.
But but bringing about thoseartistic gifts, it's a theology
of beauty, right?
I think that's what it is, andI w I don't know who I was
talking with.
Well, yeah, dr Dean Natasty,reverend Natasty, and he, he has
a lot of work on the.
I think he's got a book calledthe Beautiful Sermon and he says
(04:24):
we've struggled to develop atheology around beauty.
Have you ever thought aboutthat Kind of a first article
like this whatever is lovely,whatever is beautiful.
Paul says think on these, thinkon these things.
And I think we do know God mostespecially through word,
through sacrament, through themeans of grace, through the love
of people.
But he also reveals himselffirst Romans, chapter one, in
(04:48):
creation, in his order, in hisbeauty.
Any thoughts, any thoughtsthere, teresa?
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Oh my gosh, yeah, I think.
I mean, I think art is such apowerful tool too.
I think about that in my ownbackground in media and just the
way that those messages canconvey and the way God can use
that.
But I mean, I think you nailedit on the head with the whole
idea of just creation.
God reveals Himself in so manyincredible and impactful ways to
(05:16):
His people.
We are His creation and we areHis beloved and so, like, yeah,
to honor that, I think, is areally special thing that maybe
we don't do enough of in manyways that we should.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
I see the theology of beauty intimately connected to
the theology of place.
Do you have a place in yourhome, a corner, a prayer spot,
where, whenever you go there?
I've got a prayer corner on myoutdoor patio couch and we've
lived in the same house for 12years and so a lot of the plants
that we planted super young arenow a lot larger, and I just
(05:50):
find the older I get, the moreI'm like I'm becoming like a dad
or a grandpa Now.
I just like sitting there andbut my mind goes to a different
place when I'm writing there outin creation, Like it seems like
I get in the zone, if you will,the sweet spot of almost beyond
thought, beyond comprehension.
There's no effort, there's notrying, it's just being and
(06:12):
living in the gifts that God hasgiven.
And a theology of place,obviously centered in worship
spaces like this is deep.
This is deep for us as humanbeings.
Rituals that orient us in aplace to lift our heads up, lift
our eyes up and see the beauty,awe and magnitude of a God who
loved us so much.
You think of our worship spaces.
(06:32):
There's a reason why right inthe center there's a cross.
We lift up our eyes to thebeauty of the cross for us.
So any thoughts on theology ofbeauty connected to theology of
place, Charissa.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Well, you're sitting in mine right now because this
is where I do my writing, andyou can see behind me I've got
crosses, I've got chalices, butthe thing that's most important
in this room to me is thepictures of all the generations
that have come before me.
You can kind of see behind me.
It's just a great cloud ofwitnesses that have loved on me
(07:05):
throughout my life, and so beingin this space is where I do the
majority of my writing.
My husband, you know he, wasvery kind because I'm working on
book number two, and he sent meaway out of town to basically a
retreat place so that I couldjust sit in nature and write,
because the topic of a book toyou is a little bit heavier.
And so he was like I just, Iwant you to be able to go and
(07:26):
write in.
The topic of a book to you is alittle bit heavier.
And so he was like I just Iwant you to be able to go and
write in that space.
And so I 100% agree with youthat space matters and like
where we place ourselves matters, and I think it's a beautiful
thing to kind of honor like dowe recognize those places in our
life?
Speaker 1 (07:41):
Yeah, that's so good.
Well, let's talk about the book.
How'd you come up with 17?
It's such kind of a for anybodythinking it's a random number,
just to be quite honest, right,17 questions.
So tell us the why behind thebook and help us understand why
17 is important.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
Yeah, so obviously God asked more than 17 questions
, and so I really the 17 numberis really important to our
family.
It comes from the book ofGenesis and it's all centered in
the story of Noah's ark and itstarts with you know, the waters
burst forth on the 17th day andthen the ark comes to rest on
the 17th day.
(08:15):
All in that span of time, andthe book is really about like,
how do we sit in the midstbetween storms and blessings?
Our family that number 17 isthe day that our family changed
dramatically.
Those that have watched ourpodcast before know that my two
older daughters came to livewith us when their parents
passed, and the 17th is the daythat their dad died.
(08:38):
And so some people would belike, wow, why would you revisit
that number?
But my daughter, that day wasjust really significant to her
and she found the scriptureverse and just found such peace
in this.
This is the day the rainbowappeared, like all these
beautiful things, and she waslike, you know the promises of
God, even in the midst ofincredible suffering, and to see
(08:58):
where God is at with it nowjust really became this
incredible place for me to writefrom, of a place of just
honoring and loving our familyand like what our family has
been through, but using not onlyour story but God's story and
connecting it and really tryingto get to the heart of the
questions that God asked.
(09:19):
And the questions that we askedin that process, like some of
the questions that I dive intoin the book, are very much the
questions I think a lot ofpeople deal with in their
day-to-day life.
And what I love about this bookis I think you could pick it up
today and answer the questionsand five years from now you
could pick up the book andanswer it differently.
I mean, you really truly could,because God is constantly
(09:41):
working.
And what I love about this bookis that God never asks a
surface question.
It's always deeper.
And so in that time for us as afamily, as we've grown in our
relationship, we've circled backto some of these themes over
and over again and I was likeyou know, if we're doing that, I
guarantee if somebody else isdealing with that and so like
(10:02):
let's use these beautiful giftsthat God's given us to fully
serve and hopefully, you know,impact people with the gospel
and helping them, you know,pursue Jesus in a big way.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
I love that so much.
The reason I love it is it'sthere's an honesty of
vulnerability coupled with anintimacy and high dependency
upon God to work in our story.
I also love it because you'regiving honor to generations that
have come before and givinghonor to the story of those who
are saints now faithfullydeparted right and the hope of
(10:38):
seeing them again.
I think today we struggle withthis grander story.
I think one of the reasonsmaybe this is a little
tangential, but one of thereasons some of our younger
people may be struggling and Ithink liturgical church bodies
have a strong future is becausewe ground them in the
generations behind and the grandstory of God's love and then
(11:03):
locating him.
This is your first question inthe book when are you?
You know, where are you, god,and then, in light of where you
are, how present or distant itfeels like you are.
Where am I right now?
What's my origin?
What is my grounding, nature,right?
So talk about that firstquestion.
Why did you start with thatquestion?
(11:25):
Where are you?
Speaker 2 (11:25):
So I started with that question because it's the
first question that God asked inscripture, right.
And so, again, it's all aboutthe questions that he asked
throughout scripture, and soit's the very first one.
And it's such an interestingquestion because it comes right
in the midst of sin, has brokenforth, right, and so it's not
like God doesn't know where theyare.
I mean, you know, but it's thisGod that continues to pursue us
(11:50):
, even in the midst of our sinand brokenness.
And even when I wrote it, I wasthinking about like times that
my kids have broken things andthey try to hide it, and how we
sometimes try to hide from God.
And so I think it's a greatquestion.
To start with is, as you openthis book in your pursuit of God
, where are you like, be reallyhonest about where you're at?
(12:11):
And and because that's, in asense, even a confession in
itself, and confession, man, isfreedom.
If we could get people tounderstand that confession is
freedom of just like God I'mcoming to you and and the
freedom that he gives, then wecan move in some incredible
spaces.
Because Satan wants to hold usin that place of like you're not
(12:31):
free, you're broken, you'relike there's no rescue, there's
none of those things, and so tohear God say where are you and
provide a way through, I thinkis really important to start
there for people.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
The Genesis 3 origin story, which is the foundation
of that question.
It's so fascinating, I think alot of times we can look at it
and see that God is all law.
Right, you broke a command, butit's the kindness of God that
leads us to repentance.
Not only did he provide fortheir shame and nakedness making
clothes, which is kind of wildto think about but he also gave
them a promise that, in andthrough the suffering, there
would come one who would crushthe head of the serpent, even as
(13:11):
his heel was bitten.
You know that I am with you andI still have a plan and a
purpose for your life.
There's still going to begenerations that flow in your
family line.
As broken and messed up as ithappens to be, I'm not done with
you yet, right, I think a lotof times people's posture toward
God is he's angry, he'sfrowning, he's grumpy.
(13:31):
That's not the primarydisposition of God.
His primary disposition towardus is love.
And so the question is notwhere are you?
You know it's.
Where are you.
I just want you, I want you toknow that I know where you are
and to come out.
Come out from the guilt, comeout from the shame, and let me
heal you.
Let me forgive and restore,restore you.
(13:52):
So yeah, anything more thereabout the disposition of God
toward us broken sinners.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
I just think it's such a loving response, right,
like, because I think about whenI hear something break my like.
First thing is like, ah, likeyou know, he doesn't have that
response, he really does.
He truly pursues us and we seethroughout Scripture His
constant plan, his constantprovidence, his sovereignty, His
love towards us, and so I thinkyou're absolutely right.
(14:20):
I think, unfortunately, there'sso many people that see God as
just this, you know, evil man ona throne just wanting to burn
everybody, you know, and that isnot the God that we follow and
serve and love.
And the reason that weunderstand love so much is
because of the way that he lovesus and even in the protection
of them, as tough as it is forthem to leave the garden,
(14:42):
there's protection and love inthat too.
And so, like, there's just, wejust again got to understand the
bigger picture of the story,and that was one of the things
that I really encouraged in thebook is, like some of these
stories you know, I can't assumethat everybody knows these
stories and so, like, I hope youdive in, I hope you read it, I
hope you really understand thefull story of God and that you
(15:02):
get it from these readings forsure.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
I love it.
Your second question is wherehave you come from and where are
you going?
Why is that question important?
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Yeah, so the story of Hagar, right, and so it's such
an interesting question becauseshe's just in this, incredibly,
you know, between a rock and ahard place, and she's sent away.
You know she's a slave andshe's gotten herself in this
like horrible predicament, right.
But I think it's such abeautiful question because she's
actually the first person inscripture that gives God a name,
like you know, and I think it'ssuch an incredible thing
(15:33):
because, if you know the fullstory, what a way that God could
have changed the events of allof history and he didn't.
Again, we see incredible mercyand incredible love.
And he asked this question andshe doesn't answer it.
She actually is like I'm runningaway, and I think for a lot of
us we tend to just want to runaway or we don't want to think
(15:56):
about it.
We don't want to think aboutwhere we come from, we don't
want to think about where we'regoing, we let life happen to us
and, instead of just again, thathonesty of confession of this
is where I've been and do Irecognize if I'm on the right
road or not, and just theintentionality of giving that to
God, and when he asked her togo back, and he ends up again,
(16:20):
blessing her in ways that shecould never imagine.
But just to answer thosequestions really honestly of
again, tell me about your past,how honest can we be about that?
What are you bringing to thetable in terms of your thoughts
and your feelings about God andabout yourself, and where do you
want to go?
And I think that's an incrediblequestion for people to really
(16:42):
bring to God in the midst oflike this is where I'm at,
especially in a place ofsuffering and confusion, which
is where we find her.
She's in such a place ofsuffering and confusion that
sometimes, when we get in thoseplaces, we can't see even in
front of our own faces.
And so to have somebody ask usthat question of like, hey,
how's it going?
Like, what's happening, I thinkit's an incredible question for
(17:05):
us to sometimes pause and toreflect on, and I think it's
important I really do.
I think it's such a powerfulquestion that God asked her in
that moment.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Well, what's behind the question?
Amen.
What's behind the question isstory.
Tell me your story, the beautyand the brokenness of your story
, and then, what is your visionfor your life?
Where?
Where are you going?
Is there, is there any kind ofvision?
Is a vision just like you say,I'm just trying to make it today
?
Or is it this grand vision thatobviously is going to need the
(17:36):
God of the universe to step in,show up and show off so that
that vision can become a reality?
It's wild about humans, right,everybody has to have an aim.
It's the death of the humansoul If one.
No one cares about our storyand we don't have a vision for a
preferred future, like God hasput eternity into the hearts of
men and women, right, and we'recalled to move and go and
(17:58):
produce.
And the frivolity of it all, ifyou break it down, apart from
God, is like, why would we evencare?
I mean nihilism eat, drink, bemerry.
Tomorrow we die.
Hedonism, like that's the endof the story.
But no, we've got this upwardaim to bring beauty, love and
life into a dark and dying world.
That's, I think, one of themain indicators.
We're created in the image ofGod, isn't that right, teresa,
(18:21):
that there's even a desirespirit in me.
We'd call it the Holy Spirit.
Who's, who's giving me purpose,meaning passion for a preferred
future, which is theadvancement of the kingdom of
God that I get to be a part of.
Any comments there about thenecessity of vision?
Speaker 2 (18:35):
For sure.
And I mean, like, look at whatshe calls him, the God who sees
me, like into me.
I say, like God sees me and heis calling me forth and he is
telling me.
Here's what you know what Imean.
And so I think that'sincredibly powerful to know that
, even in the midst of ourcircumstances, that God
individually sees each and everyone of us.
And, like you said, that isincredibly powerful to know that
(18:57):
God knows us fully and you'veheard me say this fully known,
fully loved so many times thateven in the midst of this he
sees us.
I think it's just incredibleand it does.
It is the deep why, holy Spirit, of why you know, you and I and
so many others just pursue himwith everything that we have and
(19:21):
we seek him in the midst ofthat and it changes the course
right, it changes the course itreally does.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
Intimacy is a word I don't think we use enough just
to piggyback.
There's a way we can kind ofunderstand it, even using the
word.
You're like in reference to God, you're into me, right?
You actually see me, you knowme, all of me, and yet you have
a plan and purpose and a callupon my life.
You forgive me and give me anupward aim.
I mean, it's wild when werecognize the God of the
(19:50):
universe who created everythingwe see and don't see, makes us
his temple, his dwelling place,and moves us in community out
into a life which is truly worthlife.
So I love that.
Second question when have youcome from?
Where are you going?
You have a number of questions.
How long will you mourn?
Why are you going?
You have a number of questions.
How long will you mourn?
Why are you crying or why haveyou forsaken me?
(20:10):
Let's get into the tough stuffhere.
I believe we have a lot of workto do culturally and maybe
within the church as well,around the topic of grief.
What makes this questionprofound?
As you kind of look at ourculture, as we connect to grief,
I'm not gonna.
I'm gonna set this up.
As a pastor, I have seen arobust change I've and I don't
think it's all good in how wehandle grief and the rituals
(20:33):
around grief.
Early on, it was everybody'sgoing to come out and we're
going to do the funeral within acouple, three, like no longer
than a week.
Right now a lot of thoserituals of grief extend out.
Well, we're going to plan ittwo, three.
I've had funerals that were upto a year later because it takes
a while to get everybody here.
And so the theology of afuneral we're crying, we're
(20:58):
sitting in it and then we'regoing.
We're going with the body.
Now I'm not going to get intopractices around the body.
There's a lot that can be saidthere.
I am a fan of I am notnecessarily a fan of cremation.
I'm just going to put that Ilike.
I like the body, honoring thebody in this life and and
anticipating the new resurrectedbody.
(21:20):
But early on this is 17 yearsago, my first, probably 20
funerals I did.
I immediately followed the bodyin a casket to a tomb and were
with the family as they placedthe body down and dirt was
thrown on top of the body in thehope of resurrected reality
coming on the last day, Likethere's such a distance from
(21:42):
death right now.
That I don't think isculturally healthy.
I think we're stuffing it and Idon't think we're inviting the
entire community, because it'smore than just the family.
It's the family and extendedfamily and the friends.
This is not as it should be.
So talk to us about the cultureof grief, or lack thereof, that
is present, especially in theWest and in the American context
(22:05):
, Charissa.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Yeah, so this is book number two, the 17 Questions of
Grief, and it's a veryincredibly personal book.
So when I dive into book two,there was even a chapter that I
wrote that I had to getpermission.
I had to go to somebody and say, is it okay if I share this
story?
Because grief is the loneliestemotion that a human will feel,
(22:26):
because we can all lose the sameperson, but we experience it so
incredibly different and wehave experienced that even as
our own family, and so I waswriting.
I started writing the book kindof right after Christmas and you
know, 2025 starts and within 10days I am not joking, within 10
days we lost five people.
(22:47):
Five and I just remember goingLord, I don't need any more
source material, I got plentyLike I mean, you know, in just
this way, but you're absolutelyright the way each of those five
deaths was handled and becauseI was already in this spirit of
like empathy and writing andunderstanding and just being
(23:08):
really mindful of watchingdifferent people go through it,
god was teaching me in all ofthose incredible stories of
honoring people and you'reabsolutely right, some of them
were like immediately and I sawthe family of God come around
people beautifully and the sadthing that I've seen beautifully
(23:37):
and the sad thing that I'veseen.
I remember I grew up in such asmaller Lutheran church and if
somebody passed in our family,the whole church came.
It was such an honoring thingto know that the family of God
was with you and cared for youand was there to sustain you,
even if they didn't know theperson, they knew you and they
wanted to be there for you.
And so I've seen some of that,like you said, I've seen.
(23:57):
One of them is still we stillhave not had a service for one
of those five, very much to thepoint that you made.
And so, yeah, I think theculture around it has really
shifted.
And I think it really comes downto and I watch this a lot and
(24:18):
I'm sure you can relate to this,ted there's just a very
uncomfortability with theemotion of grief Because, again,
it does feel very isolating.
The way we will look at it isvery different and even the
question of can I feel this way?
I've sat with people and I knowyou probably have too that
grief, even at times maybe, hascome as a relief.
Man, that person has beensuffering for a long time and so
(24:39):
then that person's like I'mrelieved, but is it okay for me
to be relieved that they're withJesus now?
You see just this wave of notbeing able to deal with it, even
in the second book.
As I'm dealing with grief, we'retalking about grieving all
kinds of different losses, right, and I see a culture right now
that I think is very I'll put itthis way very angry, and I
(25:02):
think the longer that they sitwith it, they'll learn that it's
not actually something thatthey're angry about.
It's something that they'regrieving because it's the loss
of an idea, it's the loss of afuture, it's the loss of all
these things.
But the core motion that'srisen to the surface is anger.
But the longer that they sitwith it they'll start to
understand.
Actually I'm grieving somethingin the midst of this, but anger
(25:24):
is an easier emotion, it's likewe can understand.
You know what I mean.
And grief, I think, is one thatreally shapes us to our core.
One of the ones that Eric and Ihad to walk through in the
midst of the beginning of theyear was, you know, obviously
within our own family.
Honestly, right now, as wespeak, I am waiting for my aunt
(25:47):
to be received into the arms ofJesus, and I'm grateful and
thankful for that, because she,I absolutely know that and she
knows where she's going, and sothere's a huge sense of hope and
peace in the resurrection right.
And so she has suffered for along time and so we will grieve
on this side of heaven for sure.
But we are also going torejoice for her that she's
(26:09):
receiving her heavenly rest.
And I think that's what's sohard for some people is
depending also how the griefcomes right If it's sudden, if
you know if the person's abeliever or not, all these
different things that arewrapped up in it.
And again, I think it alwayscomes down to and I hear this
from people so many more timesif I knew it was the last time,
(26:31):
if I knew it was going to be thelast time I was going to get to
talk to that person, or do youknow what I mean?
Because, again, that grief isshaped in.
I don't get to have another oneof those moments, I don't get
to have another conversation, Idon't get to have another hug, I
don't get to fill in the blank,and I think we really struggle
with that.
But you and I's buddy, zachZender, I think, does a
beautiful job with this and hetalks about it at the gathering,
(26:53):
which is like death is a middleword, it's not the final word.
Cancer is a middle word it'snot the final word.
But yet we so get caught up inour human nature and our day to
day that we struggle withgetting past that.
God gets the final word, and soit's hard, and so we sit with
(27:13):
it and we grow around it, or wedeal with it, or people say
things to us that is incrediblyuncomfortable and they're trying
to be well-meaning and it justdoesn't come across.
And so how do we also deal withthat?
I heard a friend say recently,as he was was dealing with grief
, that people were telling himstories about the person and he
(27:37):
was like I didn't know what todo with it, because it doesn't
always even that's not theperson I knew.
But you're telling me the storyabout this person that I love
and I'm thankful because I'mgetting to hear a different side
of a story, but I don't knowthat person and what am I
supposed to do with that?
How do I hold that?
How do I honor that?
And I do.
I think it's.
Again.
(27:57):
Grief is an interesting emotionbecause it is that loss of that
hope and that future that wehave in our mind of what we want
it to look like.
And so we also struggle withthat because, again in our own
human condition we want to be alittle G-God sometimes and say
this is the way it was supposedto go and there's a real
(28:19):
surrender to.
There's a different plan,whether we understand it fully
or not.
And, like I said, we've walkedthis road a lot in our family
and have talked about grief alot in our family and I just
always come back to that ofmeeting God in the midst of
(28:41):
struggling and grief and thosequestions really kind of tie
into that.
When we look at each one ofthose individual questions that
you kind of talked about,they're so different even in the
midst of those.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
What's your favorite story of Jesus around grief?
I'll give you mine and you cantalk about it, or something I
mean all of John 11, right, isthe story of Jesus and Lazarus
and his tearing coming.
He could have, but he doesn'tQuestions about why.
(29:15):
If you'd only been here, youknow, and the different kind of
responses to grief.
Martha ends up going out,giving Jesus what for a little
bit, and Mary stays behind, kindof despondent, and you see
those different reactions.
You see the confession of faith, um, of Martha, which we often
(29:36):
throw Martha under the bus, butshe, she talks about the
resurrection life.
Right, um, and there, therewill come a day of resurrection.
I believe it and I just amgrieving it right now.
And and then, and then, uh, Ithink one of the biggest
metaphors for me is Lazaruscomes out of the grave.
He's got to die again, and inthe next chapter they're trying
(29:59):
to kill him, or maybe it's evenat the end of that chapter.
They're trying to put him todeath because he's a signpost of
the resurrection life that'sfound in Jesus.
That's, that's a bummer, um,and then, and then he, but he
comes out of the grave and Jesussays help, help him with his
grave claws.
You know it's awkward.
He's naked underneath theseclothes and stuff, and so
there's some honor of the bodyand we all kind of come out of
(30:21):
the tomb day by day.
This is what repentance is, butwe got these grave claws that.
We need people to be kind to us, you know, to care for us, and
so, yeah, I think the story ofLazarus is my favorite.
There's tears, jesus weeps,there's a theology of deep grief
and crying.
Jesus weeps over death.
This is not how it should beand that's why I've come Any
(30:43):
comments on the story of Lazarusor other stories of Jesus
handling grief.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Yeah, so that's my favorite one, and it's not in
this book, but it is in thegrief book, right, the question
of do you believe this?
Right, Like, I am theresurrection of life, Do you
believe this?
I think that's an incrediblequestion that he asked in the
midst of this grief.
And you're absolutely right,that's such a beautiful story of
different people responding togrief and the different ways,
and I love that.
(31:07):
I love the take the graveclothes off, Like we have to
remember that.
That's that, that is our job.
Like leave it behind, Right,you know, and and um it, yeah,
that's what that?
That really is one of thedriving themes, uh, in book two
is all around the as some of thestory of Lazarus.
I break it down, uh, quite abit so.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
Love it.
I think it's when's the storyof Jesus healing the girl who
died while he healed the womanon the way right who touched his
garments and then don't come,now she's dead.
She's not dead, she's justsleeping.
And everybody laughs at Jesus.
I love we're walking throughMark right now.
Jesus doesn't care what otherpeople think about him, like at
(31:51):
all.
His family's throwing him underthe bus.
He's a crazy man.
The Pharisees are saying he'spossessed by a demon.
People are laughing at him whenhe says she's just sleeping and
Jesus just goes about doing histhing, making all things new.
Any take on kind of how Jesus isjust like so on mission.
It seems like such a tritething to say because he's the
(32:11):
son of God, but like Jesus isjust.
He knows what's in the heartsof men.
He's connected in his identityto the father.
He's asking amazing questions,he's connecting with people, but
he's got a mission and his eyesare set, like Flint, to
Jerusalem, to a cross and do anempty tomb.
What is it about Jesus as thehealthiest human that just gives
you a lot of joy.
I mean, it lights me up when Ithink of how Jesus is just so on
(32:33):
mission.
Teresa, what are your thoughts?
Speaker 2 (32:34):
Well, and, like you said, I think it's in his timing
right, like it's always in histiming.
And you see him go out of theway to meet the Samaritan woman
at the well, like he would havenot.
Like you know what I mean, likehe very is intentional in his
walk and in his mission andmaking sure that the right quote
, unquote.
People see certain things right, like for the word to go out
(32:57):
and, like you said, lazarusbeing like the very next, like,
oh, we got to get rid Because,as that was building, as that
was growing, as people werecoming to belief in who Jesus
was, that was such an incrediblething.
Because, again, I think it'salways amazing to me that God's
plan was us.
Because I'm like, imagine thedisciples just standing there
(33:20):
watching him ascend to heavenand be like that was a cool
story Time to go back to.
You know what I mean.
And they just went back totheir regular lives.
The fact that they could havedone that.
And I wonder sometimes in ourtoday society if people would
have been like, all right, thatwas cool.
I'm like, all right, let's justget back to like doing what
we're doing, that they were soon, stay still, that he really
(33:41):
modeled that for his people.
And I know you and me likethat's part of our mission, is
(34:04):
like we want to be on mission,we want to, we want, we want
2000 years from now, there to bepeople here because of the
impact of somebody hearing thegospel, because of maybe an
interaction with us or somebodythat we encouraged in the faith.
You know, that's the beauty ofseeing the generations
(34:24):
throughout history just reallycapture the story and see
themselves in that relationshipwith Jesus.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
Yeah, One of your questions is whom shall I send?
Right, yeah, our God is asending God From the Father,
father sending the Son, fatherand the Son sending the Holy
Spirit, trying God sending thechurch, the church moving out,
saying here am I send me?
And it's obviously connected tothe Old Testament story.
Why is that such an importantquestion?
Whom shall I send, teresa?
Speaker 2 (34:53):
Because the church can never lose sight of the
priesthood of all believers.
And I think sometimes weoutsource faith and we think, oh
, somebody else will do it,somebody else will figure it out
.
And it is so incrediblyimportant that if we're going to
pass on the faith to the nextgeneration, that we all see
ourselves as part of that.
(35:14):
It is not just the job of thepastor, not just the job of the
youth minister, not just the jobof even parents.
We all, as the body of Christ,have to see ourselves as part of
that and I love that in ourbaptismal liturgy like that, we
as a church get asked thatquestion will you support and
encourage and all these things?
And we should boldly thatshould be the loudest resounding
(35:35):
like we will, with the help ofGod, in our congregations in the
midst of that, because it doestake every single one of us God
does not have grandchildren, heonly has children and so we have
got to be a part of that in themidst of like passing the faith
on to those next generations.
And it does take every singleone of us using these incredible
gifts that God has given us tolove on the people around us.
(35:56):
That's what he's given them tous to do is to love God and love
others, and as you go out, willyou have moments where you're
fearful, doubting, questioning.
Speaker 1 (36:05):
Yeah, that's just the way it is and that calls us
constantly independence upon Godand his work.
If this is about me, this isone of my like pre-sermon
prayers.
If this is about me, I'm reallygoing to mess this up.
Come, holy Spirit, give me joy,help me to get out the way so
that you can take center stageand people can know and follow
and experience your word andyour love for us.
(36:26):
But one of your questions iswhy do you doubt?
Why do you doubt?
Is doubt sin?
Talk about doubt a little bit.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
Yeah, I think this is so important for young people
to know because they're going todoubt and doubt is not a sin.
I think that's so incrediblyimportant for people to hear,
because sometimes, when we getaround the Genesis story, it's
this idea like well, theydoubted.
It's never about the doubt,it's what we do with our doubt,
it's the next step.
Right, it is always the nextstep.
(36:52):
Do we not think that Jesusdidn't see things that were not
like godly things to see?
But it's what you do with thatnext step.
And so, in the garden, insteadof saying, okay, I have a
question, where do I go fortruth?
I go to God, like, instead ofturning back to God and going
God, is this that tree that youtold us not to Like?
You know what I mean?
And it's where do we go for thesource of truth and doubt?
(37:14):
We're all going to have doubtat different times in our faith
development, in our searching ofGod, like we are going to
question.
And what I actually think doubtis can be a really beautiful
thing, because if it can createus to be curious where we seek
after truth and after God, godcan actually use our doubt to do
beautiful things in our lives,to help us dig deeper, to pull
(37:38):
up the roots, to pull up theweeds of the things that don't,
that are not serving us.
As we seek him, as long as,again in our doubt, we go to the
source, and the source of ourtruth and life is him.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
I don't know that I've ever connected doubt to
adventure, doubt to calling, andI like, I like that.
I'm being called up and out.
You're sending me, god.
It's going to be interesting tosee how this all concludes,
right, I don't know the end ofmy story, like how many days I
(38:09):
have, the people that are goingto come and go, and uh.
My only orientation toward life,though and I think this is
being, this is being provenscientifically, philosophically
and theologically is that thereis this upward call toward
adventure and I get to be a partof it.
I'm not the hero of the story.
Jesus is the hero of the story.
The word of God is the hero ofthe story, but I get to be a
(38:31):
part of it, and a small, smallhero I'm not the big H here, but
a small hero in my context, inmy, in my community.
I'm the hands and feet of Jesusand, as I'm moving out, I just
don't know how all this is goingto play out and I don't know
why God, you allow these certainthings.
But I'm taking my why, I'mtaking my questions, I'm taking
(38:53):
my doubt, but I have a spirit of, and I like that.
I just have a spirit ofcuriosity and humility we're
just going to see.
Honestly, for me and our workwith the ULC, that's often how I
feel, like we're askingdifferent questions of the
church and various systems andstructures and leaders et cetera
, like I don't exactly know.
I know the end result is morepeople knowing and following
(39:14):
Jesus.
I know the end result is allthings made new.
But we live in a broken realityand I just sometimes think that
leaders, we want certainty.
Right, give me the exact Idon't know.
I think certain we wantcertainty and comfort.
Exactly.
We want certainty and comfortand I think the origin of that
(39:34):
is pride.
Certainty is around pride,comfort is around fear.
Now I take all of that to theGod of love who overwhelms my
fear, and the God of humilitywho, little old you, you get to
be a part of this big thing.
Don't get the big head.
You know, I see Jesus and thedisciples coming back right.
Don't get the big head.
Rejoice that your names arewritten in the kingdom of heaven
after they did spectacularthings casting out demons,
(39:57):
healing the sick, proclaimingthe kingdom of God, right, and I
don't.
There's no room for pride orfor or for fear.
I mean the perfect love of God.
It casts out fear.
But yeah, I like that a lot.
That doubt is connected tocuriosity, adventure rather than
shame.
That's really good, charissa.
Speaker 2 (40:13):
Well, I think people struggle with it because I'm a
very curious person.
I ask a lot of questions and Ihave to be really mindful
sometimes when I ask questions,because I know that it can come
across as I'm being a challenger, right, or like I'm down, and
it's like no, I'm just being.
I'm trying to really be curious, I'm trying to lean in, I'm
trying to understand morebecause I want to understand,
(40:33):
and I do think people do getchallenged by it.
But if you can, if you can havethat spirit of curiosity, leads
to a deeper understanding.
I, when we talk about doubt, Ilove looking at other people in
scripture that had doubts thatGod completely honored in their
questioning, right, like I meaneven Moses himself.
Like, like God, how's thisgoing to be?
(40:54):
Like, you know, mary, how canthis be?
I'm a virgin.
Like we see these differentquestions of like, this
curiosity of like how's thisgoing to happen?
And we see God do amazingthings through them.
Because again, they're like,well, you know, tell them I am
who I am, you know what I mean.
Like I am the great I am.
And for Mary, like, well, letit be so, if that's what the
(41:15):
Lord wants, I'm open, you know.
And so we see these beautifulthings where God also honors the
curiosity.
And so that's where I thinkit's really important that when
we talk and we center sometheology around doubt, that we
don't make doubt this horriblesin, that doubt, what we do with
our doubt, does matter rightLike we need to talk about that,
(41:38):
but at its core it can actuallybe a really beautiful thing.
Speaker 1 (41:40):
Intimately connected to a life of prayer, the more I
think about it, bringing yourcare.
Cast all your cares upon him,all your questions upon him,
because he cares, he cares foryou.
Hey, last question, this is sofun.
Why did Jesus need to ask Peter, do you love me?
One of your questions, does heask the same of us?
If so, why so?
Do you love me?
Let's talk about that one.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
Man.
That's such a personal questionright that he gets to the heart
of it.
You know, like, do you love me?
And when we think about whatthe definition of love is right
and we really kind of break itdown, that again him and Peter
had this incredible relationship, this incredible closeness,
this incredible intimacy, thatwe've used this word a couple
(42:20):
times.
And when we get to outside,where Jesus is inside and
preparing and being broughtbefore the Sanhedrin, all these
different things that Peter is,this guy that's like God, I will
never betray you, I'll fight tothe death, like all these
different things.
And yet when he doesn't, is notstanding with the power and the
(42:43):
strength of the disciples andespecially Jesus by his side.
I don't know the man, I don'tknow him, I'm not with him.
Right, and and I think so manyof us can fall victim to that,
especially some of our youngerpeople right now Like, I don't
know him.
You know they're so fearful ofbeing tied to labels or whatever
(43:06):
else and at the root, it's notabout the label of.
You know, you're a Jew, allthose different things.
Right, like, as Peter was beingasked, oh well, you're from
that region, you have to beright, like you have to be oh
well, you're from that region,you have to be right, like, you
have to be one of his followers.
And it comes down to like thatrelationship with Jesus alone.
And when he expresses this, Ido not know him that when this
(43:27):
restoration happens in John, youknow it's this.
Do you love me?
And loving somebody again,fully known, fully loved.
Yes, lord, I love you.
You know what I mean.
Like that, there is that repairin the relationship of you know
.
Yes, I want this.
And Jesus incredibly challengeshim.
(43:48):
And even at the end of thatstory, the very thing that Peter
was trying to say, jesus tellshim like you will lose your life
for me, point blank.
Suffering is coming and that'swhat you were trying to save and
I understand that.
But at the end of the day, doyou love me?
And I think it's an incrediblequestion that he asked of us,
(44:10):
because if we love him, how dowe show up?
It's one of the questions that Iask our kids a lot when
sometimes they're maybe kind oflike not exactly making the best
decisions or on the right road.
It's that question of like youknow, how are you representing
yourself, how are yourepresenting us?
How are you representing God inthese places and like, if you
want to be known you know, wehear it all the time If they
(44:32):
will know we are Christians byour love.
How are we loving the world andGod completely?
When Jesus himself gets askedwhat's the greatest commandment?
Love the Lord, your God, withall your heart, soul, mind and
understanding, and love yourneighbor as yourselves.
That question of do you love meis getting to the number one
commandment.
It's getting to that veryquestion Do you love me and do
(44:55):
you love others?
And if you're going to say yes,then we got to show up that way
.
We got to show up that way.
Speaker 1 (45:01):
Isn't it interesting how I mean thou shalt have no
other gods before, every sin isa breaking of the first.
We're idol making factories,right, we have passions and
desires that go after createdthings rather than the creator.
That's very true.
But it's interesting that Jesusgoes to love because the
commandment, I mean there's.
There's love that's around thegiving of the commandments in
(45:23):
the old Testament, but thatJesus highlights the posture of
love.
Loving God, loving, lovingothers, that's, that's a life
which is truly life.
Listening and being dependentupon the God who's in love with
me, and letting him know thathe's number one, and then moving
out as an image bearer to bringlove and light into the world.
That's the best thing ever.
(45:44):
Peter's story is so fascinating.
He's gone back to his formervocation.
Whether he'd get around to thekingdom-expanding stuff, maybe
in time, and the Holy Spirithasn't come yet either.
But I think it's the, thehumanity of it all.
They, they see him and theythen the whole story of the
catch a fish and Peter gets out.
He's got to get to Jesus.
(46:05):
He's not crippled by guilt orshame.
He, he, he's kind of he uh,performs acts before he thinks,
and I can relate.
I can relate to that sometimes,whatever it takes yeah,
whatever it takes to get toJesus.
And then there's this awkwardnature around the breakfast and
(46:25):
the beach scene, right, no onereally says anything.
They all knew it was the Lord.
And Jesus then initiates aconversation with Peter.
He's very, very kind.
And then the final point, itcan't just be about us.
Then you know, go feed my sheep, feed my sheep.
This is the higher calling thatyou have.
You remember, right, we're?
We're fishing for people here.
Go, go feed them.
(46:46):
I'm the good shepherd, you'rean under shepherd.
Get after it, son.
And uh, and he did, I mean andacts.
Two is is a perfect case inpoint.
When the Spirit descended,everybody looks around.
Bueller, bueller, who's goingto talk?
Peter, everybody's talking.
But Peter gives the most epicsermon of all time, connecting
Jesus as the promised Messiahfor the Jews, who are then
diaspora, who are the sent onesout from that place.
(47:08):
And the world was never, never,the same again, because of the
power of the love of Christ andthen the love of the apostles
who carried his love into theworld.
You're a gift, charissa.
Thank you for writing this.
I had so much fun talking toyou.
And if people want to get thebook, the 17.
Speaker 2 (47:26):
Questions of God and the Impact on your Life Today.
How can they do so?
So, again, you can head over tothe website or you can go to
Amazon, and if you go to Amazontoday, you'll also see that I
have uploaded some additionalbooks and some resources there.
Again, I am always wanting youto be diving into God's Word,
and so I created some weeklysermon note journals as well, so
that hopefully you know.
Again, one of my olderdaughters was just taking a
(47:48):
spiral notebook and writing inher spiral notebook every Sunday
and I was like we could do alittle bit better than that.
So I've created a lot ofdifferent covers.
The insides are all the same andI love that.
It's got a little piece of mein it, one of the things that I
like to teach about us activelylistening and worshiping with
God and how we.
Now we know we believe and nowwe do.
(48:09):
So we have the head, heart andhands in there and so, like, as
you go to worship and you aremeeting God in that beautiful
place we talked about thatearlier and you're meeting God
in this beautiful place, what ishe calling us to know, believe
and do each and every Sunday,and if we can come in that
spirit of curiosity, everysingle time we come to worship,
(48:29):
is God, I am here and I want toknow you more, and by knowing
and learning these things, I'mgoing to show up differently.
I think that's a powerful thingif we can get into that space
of really truly understandingwhat worship is all about.
And so, and hopefully you know,before long book two will be out
(48:50):
, and so it's a whole series.
When the whole thing is done,you will have an entire rainbow.
That's why there's differentcolors, and so all those spines,
when you finally line them allup, will be a rainbow which goes
back to again the whole pointof the 17 and the promises of
God.
And so, again, I just hope thateach and every one of them are
going to be a blessing.
We're going to be talking aboutpurpose and identity, and all
(49:13):
these different things will bein these different books, and so
I just pray that it's ablessing to individuals and the
church at large.
Speaker 1 (49:19):
Every time I talk to you, teresa, I'm left with a
crazy amount of Jesus juice.
I'm just like so on fire, inlove with the God, who's in love
with me, and he's in love withyou too.
And listener, please like,subscribe, comment, take this in
wherever it is.
You take it in.
It, help gets the word out.
And you know, sometimes in theULC podcast and Lead Time my
other one we have these kind ofuncomfortable conversations and
(49:41):
what I like about the podcast isby my name, like my whole life
is not all these uncomfortablekind of goofy.
The vast majority of my life isjust locking arm in arm as a one
leader among many, many leaders, trying to bring love and light
out into the world, asking bigquestions, letting God, through
his word, answer them and andbeing called up.
You know, I think a lot oftimes you can't control what
(50:04):
people think about like who youare and how you present yourself
to the world, and that's okay.
You only, you only need theapproval of God.
But I say all that to sayconversations like this are way
more fun than conversationsaround pastoral formation and
prior approval, just saying it'sa good day.
Go, make it a great day,sharisa, you're a gift to me and
the body of Christ.
Thank you, sister, thank you.
Welcome to the Tim Allman Podcast.
I pray.
The joy of Jesus is yourstrength today, as I get to have
, I think for the third time, asa guest on one of our ULC
podcasts, teresa Kuntz.
If you don't know her, you cango back and listen to some of
our other conversations.
We've talked about youthministry.
She has 25 years as a directorof Christian education.
As a director of Christianeducation, family life ministry
(00:23):
we both are bulldogs.
She has.
She spent man some time inboard of director positions in
across the Lutheran Church,Missouri Synod, and before that
she worked in radio and TV.
And the reason we're talkingtoday is she has a brand new
book out called the 17 Questionsof God and the Impact on your
(00:44):
Life Today and what you may findfascinating about this kind of
book, which has a journal typeformat.
If you're following on YouTube,you can see a number of these
pictures, and then you see theseillustrations on a lot of these
pages, and I just found outthat they were written by her 12
, soon to be 13 year olddaughter, charity.
So the opening questionCharissa, well before that, you
(01:06):
doing all right, life is goodLove and life.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Life is good, life is good.
Yeah, same.
How about you?
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Yeah, well, yes, jesus is on the throne, he's
good at Lent, and we'repreparing ourselves for the
upper room cross and empty tomb,so, so, so exciting.
What was it like working,though, with your daughter on
this project?
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Man, what a blessing.
This was really a family,all-in family thing.
My husband on website stuff, Imean, everybody was in on it.
But Charity just has theseincredible gifts with art and I
was like I really would love foryou to be a part of it.
It's so funny because even as ayoung person, she has a very
particular style, and so even indoing some of the illustrations
(01:47):
I'd have to go back and be like, hey, can you fix that?
And so it was kind of funnybeing like mom and boss and all
these different things.
But, man, it's been such ablessing, and what's been so
cool as a parent is watchingpeople bring the book to her and
asking her to sign it and, justlike you know, encouraging her
to continue to use her gifts.
And that's the beauty is likeher getting to see the impact of
(02:09):
her using her amazing giftsthat God has given her to really
shape and honor people with it,and so I just love that.
It's been a really big blessingfor us for sure.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Cool to give kids at that age responsibility.
So no child labor laws werebroken in the writing of this
book.
What were you able to do tokind of incentivize?
Was there an incentivizing plan?
Or she just voluntarily say,hey, I just want to be a part of
this mom.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Yeah, and it's so funny because I just was like I
would love for you to be a partof it and I have two younger
daughters and so they want toillustrate the next books and
they're like, do we get to dothe next one?
So I think they just see theimpact of it and how exciting it
is to be a part of that.
And, tim, you know, when wewent into ministry, we accepted
(02:55):
these amazing calls that Godplaced on our lives.
But our families, that's adifferent thing.
Right, they have their ownpieces of that and helping them
love and value where they showup in the world too, and so it's
just, like I said, it's been anincredible blessing and I'm
just excited, and, like I said,who knows that in the next
couple of books that you won'tsee Ellie or Bellamy drawing
(03:19):
some art in there as well?
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Do they all have artistic gifts?
Speaker 2 (03:22):
They do.
And it does not come from me,tim.
I think that's Completely frommy husband.
My husband is very good at art.
I am the worst.
When I was in Mops and theyalways had the craft project, I
literally would tell my bestfriend, like can you just make
an extra one for me?
Like I have no artistic giftsin drawing at all.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
So yeah, yeah, I mean , I think we're kind of similar
in that, like our only skill iswords.
I do very little of worth withmy hands.
But yeah, it's crazy how Godmakes our kids different.
Because my 16 year old son veryartistic, he's been drawing,
writing, animating, all thatkind of stuff, loves rap.
(04:01):
He wanted to be for a whileLike Christian I was telling you
a Christian rapper like NF, andthat's dreams kind of gone to
the wayside now.
But but bringing about thoseartistic gifts, it's a theology
of beauty, right?
I think that's what it is, andI w I don't know who I was
talking with.
Well, yeah, dr Dean Natasty,reverend Natasty, and he, he has
a lot of work on the.
I think he's got a book calledthe Beautiful Sermon and he says
(04:24):
we've struggled to develop atheology around beauty.
Have you ever thought aboutthat Kind of a first article
like this whatever is lovely,whatever is beautiful.
Paul says think on these, thinkon these things.
And I think we do know God mostespecially through word,
through sacrament, through themeans of grace, through the love
of people.
But he also reveals himselffirst Romans, chapter one, in
(04:48):
creation, in his order, in hisbeauty.
Any thoughts, any thoughtsthere, teresa?
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Oh my gosh, yeah, I think.
I mean, I think art is such apowerful tool too.
I think about that in my ownbackground in media and just the
way that those messages canconvey and the way God can use
that.
But I mean, I think you nailedit on the head with the whole
idea of just creation.
God reveals Himself in so manyincredible and impactful ways to
(05:16):
His people.
We are His creation and we areHis beloved and so, like, yeah,
to honor that, I think, is areally special thing that maybe
we don't do enough of in manyways that we should.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
I see the theology of beauty intimately connected to
the theology of place.
Do you have a place in yourhome, a corner, a prayer spot,
where, whenever you go there?
I've got a prayer corner on myoutdoor patio couch and we've
lived in the same house for 12years and so a lot of the plants
that we planted super young arenow a lot larger, and I just
(05:50):
find the older I get, the moreI'm like I'm becoming like a dad
or a grandpa Now.
I just like sitting there andbut my mind goes to a different
place when I'm writing there outin creation, Like it seems like
I get in the zone, if you will,the sweet spot of almost beyond
thought, beyond comprehension.
There's no effort, there's notrying, it's just being and
(06:12):
living in the gifts that God hasgiven.
And a theology of place,obviously centered in worship
spaces like this is deep.
This is deep for us as humanbeings.
Rituals that orient us in aplace to lift our heads up, lift
our eyes up and see the beauty,awe and magnitude of a God who
loved us so much.
You think of our worship spaces.
(06:32):
There's a reason why right inthe center there's a cross.
We lift up our eyes to thebeauty of the cross for us.
So any thoughts on theology ofbeauty connected to theology of
place, Charissa.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Well, you're sitting in mine right now because this
is where I do my writing, andyou can see behind me I've got
crosses, I've got chalices, butthe thing that's most important
in this room to me is thepictures of all the generations
that have come before me.
You can kind of see behind me.
It's just a great cloud ofwitnesses that have loved on me
(07:05):
throughout my life, and so beingin this space is where I do the
majority of my writing.
My husband, you know he, wasvery kind because I'm working on
book number two, and he sent meaway out of town to basically a
retreat place so that I couldjust sit in nature and write,
because the topic of a book toyou is a little bit heavier.
And so he was like I just, Iwant you to be able to go and
(07:26):
write in.
The topic of a book to you is alittle bit heavier.
And so he was like I just Iwant you to be able to go and
write in that space.
And so I 100% agree with youthat space matters and like
where we place ourselves matters, and I think it's a beautiful
thing to kind of honor like dowe recognize those places in our
life?
Speaker 1 (07:41):
Yeah, that's so good.
Well, let's talk about the book.
How'd you come up with 17?
It's such kind of a for anybodythinking it's a random number,
just to be quite honest, right,17 questions.
So tell us the why behind thebook and help us understand why
17 is important.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
Yeah, so obviously God asked more than 17 questions
, and so I really the 17 numberis really important to our
family.
It comes from the book ofGenesis and it's all centered in
the story of Noah's ark and itstarts with you know, the waters
burst forth on the 17th day andthen the ark comes to rest on
the 17th day.
(08:15):
All in that span of time, andthe book is really about like,
how do we sit in the midstbetween storms and blessings?
Our family that number 17 isthe day that our family changed
dramatically.
Those that have watched ourpodcast before know that my two
older daughters came to livewith us when their parents
passed, and the 17th is the daythat their dad died.
(08:38):
And so some people would belike, wow, why would you revisit
that number?
But my daughter, that day wasjust really significant to her
and she found the scriptureverse and just found such peace
in this.
This is the day the rainbowappeared, like all these
beautiful things, and she waslike, you know the promises of
God, even in the midst ofincredible suffering, and to see
(08:58):
where God is at with it nowjust really became this
incredible place for me to writefrom, of a place of just
honoring and loving our familyand like what our family has
been through, but using not onlyour story but God's story and
connecting it and really tryingto get to the heart of the
questions that God asked.
(09:19):
And the questions that we askedin that process, like some of
the questions that I dive intoin the book, are very much the
questions I think a lot ofpeople deal with in their
day-to-day life.
And what I love about this bookis I think you could pick it up
today and answer the questionsand five years from now you
could pick up the book andanswer it differently.
I mean, you really truly could,because God is constantly
(09:41):
working.
And what I love about this bookis that God never asks a
surface question.
It's always deeper.
And so in that time for us as afamily, as we've grown in our
relationship, we've circled backto some of these themes over
and over again and I was likeyou know, if we're doing that, I
guarantee if somebody else isdealing with that and so like
(10:02):
let's use these beautiful giftsthat God's given us to fully
serve and hopefully, you know,impact people with the gospel
and helping them, you know,pursue Jesus in a big way.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
I love that so much.
The reason I love it is it'sthere's an honesty of
vulnerability coupled with anintimacy and high dependency
upon God to work in our story.
I also love it because you'regiving honor to generations that
have come before and givinghonor to the story of those who
are saints now faithfullydeparted right and the hope of
(10:38):
seeing them again.
I think today we struggle withthis grander story.
I think one of the reasonsmaybe this is a little
tangential, but one of thereasons some of our younger
people may be struggling and Ithink liturgical church bodies
have a strong future is becausewe ground them in the
generations behind and the grandstory of God's love and then
(11:03):
locating him.
This is your first question inthe book when are you?
You know, where are you, god,and then, in light of where you
are, how present or distant itfeels like you are.
Where am I right now?
What's my origin?
What is my grounding, nature,right?
So talk about that firstquestion.
Why did you start with thatquestion?
(11:25):
Where are you?
Speaker 2 (11:25):
So I started with that question because it's the
first question that God asked inscripture, right.
And so, again, it's all aboutthe questions that he asked
throughout scripture, and soit's the very first one.
And it's such an interestingquestion because it comes right
in the midst of sin, has brokenforth, right, and so it's not
like God doesn't know where theyare.
I mean, you know, but it's thisGod that continues to pursue us
(11:50):
, even in the midst of our sinand brokenness.
And even when I wrote it, I wasthinking about like times that
my kids have broken things andthey try to hide it, and how we
sometimes try to hide from God.
And so I think it's a greatquestion.
To start with is, as you openthis book in your pursuit of God
, where are you like, be reallyhonest about where you're at?
(12:11):
And and because that's, in asense, even a confession in
itself, and confession, man, isfreedom.
If we could get people tounderstand that confession is
freedom of just like God I'mcoming to you and and the
freedom that he gives, then wecan move in some incredible
spaces.
Because Satan wants to hold usin that place of like you're not
(12:31):
free, you're broken, you'relike there's no rescue, there's
none of those things, and so tohear God say where are you and
provide a way through, I thinkis really important to start
there for people.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
The Genesis 3 origin story, which is the foundation
of that question.
It's so fascinating, I think alot of times we can look at it
and see that God is all law.
Right, you broke a command, butit's the kindness of God that
leads us to repentance.
Not only did he provide fortheir shame and nakedness making
clothes, which is kind of wildto think about but he also gave
them a promise that, in andthrough the suffering, there
would come one who would crushthe head of the serpent, even as
(13:11):
his heel was bitten.
You know that I am with you andI still have a plan and a
purpose for your life.
There's still going to begenerations that flow in your
family line.
As broken and messed up as ithappens to be, I'm not done with
you yet, right, I think a lotof times people's posture toward
God is he's angry, he'sfrowning, he's grumpy.
(13:31):
That's not the primarydisposition of God.
His primary disposition towardus is love.
And so the question is notwhere are you?
You know it's.
Where are you.
I just want you, I want you toknow that I know where you are
and to come out.
Come out from the guilt, comeout from the shame, and let me
heal you.
Let me forgive and restore,restore you.
(13:52):
So yeah, anything more thereabout the disposition of God
toward us broken sinners.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
I just think it's such a loving response, right,
like, because I think about whenI hear something break my like.
First thing is like, ah, likeyou know, he doesn't have that
response, he really does.
He truly pursues us and we seethroughout Scripture His
constant plan, his constantprovidence, his sovereignty, His
love towards us, and so I thinkyou're absolutely right.
(14:20):
I think, unfortunately, there'sso many people that see God as
just this, you know, evil man ona throne just wanting to burn
everybody, you know, and that isnot the God that we follow and
serve and love.
And the reason that weunderstand love so much is
because of the way that he lovesus and even in the protection
of them, as tough as it is forthem to leave the garden,
(14:42):
there's protection and love inthat too.
And so, like, there's just, wejust again got to understand the
bigger picture of the story,and that was one of the things
that I really encouraged in thebook is, like some of these
stories you know, I can't assumethat everybody knows these
stories and so, like, I hope youdive in, I hope you read it, I
hope you really understand thefull story of God and that you
(15:02):
get it from these readings forsure.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
I love it.
Your second question is wherehave you come from and where are
you going?
Why is that question important?
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Yeah, so the story of Hagar, right, and so it's such
an interesting question becauseshe's just in this, incredibly,
you know, between a rock and ahard place, and she's sent away.
You know she's a slave andshe's gotten herself in this
like horrible predicament, right.
But I think it's such abeautiful question because she's
actually the first person inscripture that gives God a name,
like you know, and I think it'ssuch an incredible thing
(15:33):
because, if you know the fullstory, what a way that God could
have changed the events of allof history and he didn't.
Again, we see incredible mercyand incredible love.
And he asked this question andshe doesn't answer it.
She actually is like I'm runningaway, and I think for a lot of
us we tend to just want to runaway or we don't want to think
(15:56):
about it.
We don't want to think aboutwhere we come from, we don't
want to think about where we'regoing, we let life happen to us
and, instead of just again, thathonesty of confession of this
is where I've been and do Irecognize if I'm on the right
road or not, and just theintentionality of giving that to
God, and when he asked her togo back, and he ends up again,
(16:20):
blessing her in ways that shecould never imagine.
But just to answer thosequestions really honestly of
again, tell me about your past,how honest can we be about that?
What are you bringing to thetable in terms of your thoughts
and your feelings about God andabout yourself, and where do you
want to go?
And I think that's an incrediblequestion for people to really
(16:42):
bring to God in the midst oflike this is where I'm at,
especially in a place ofsuffering and confusion, which
is where we find her.
She's in such a place ofsuffering and confusion that
sometimes, when we get in thoseplaces, we can't see even in
front of our own faces.
And so to have somebody ask usthat question of like, hey,
how's it going?
Like, what's happening, I thinkit's an incredible question for
(17:05):
us to sometimes pause and toreflect on, and I think it's
important I really do.
I think it's such a powerfulquestion that God asked her in
that moment.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Well, what's behind the question?
Amen.
What's behind the question isstory.
Tell me your story, the beautyand the brokenness of your story
, and then, what is your visionfor your life?
Where?
Where are you going?
Is there, is there any kind ofvision?
Is a vision just like you say,I'm just trying to make it today
?
Or is it this grand vision thatobviously is going to need the
(17:36):
God of the universe to step in,show up and show off so that
that vision can become a reality?
It's wild about humans, right,everybody has to have an aim.
It's the death of the humansoul If one.
No one cares about our storyand we don't have a vision for a
preferred future, like God hasput eternity into the hearts of
men and women, right, and we'recalled to move and go and
(17:58):
produce.
And the frivolity of it all, ifyou break it down, apart from
God, is like, why would we evencare?
I mean nihilism eat, drink, bemerry.
Tomorrow we die.
Hedonism, like that's the endof the story.
But no, we've got this upwardaim to bring beauty, love and
life into a dark and dying world.
That's, I think, one of themain indicators.
We're created in the image ofGod, isn't that right, teresa,
(18:21):
that there's even a desirespirit in me.
We'd call it the Holy Spirit.
Who's, who's giving me purpose,meaning passion for a preferred
future, which is theadvancement of the kingdom of
God that I get to be a part of.
Any comments there about thenecessity of vision?
Speaker 2 (18:35):
For sure.
And I mean, like, look at whatshe calls him, the God who sees
me, like into me.
I say, like God sees me and heis calling me forth and he is
telling me.
Here's what you know what Imean.
And so I think that'sincredibly powerful to know that
, even in the midst of ourcircumstances, that God
individually sees each and everyone of us.
And, like you said, that isincredibly powerful to know that
(18:57):
God knows us fully and you'veheard me say this fully known,
fully loved so many times thateven in the midst of this he
sees us.
I think it's just incredibleand it does.
It is the deep why, holy Spirit, of why you know, you and I and
so many others just pursue himwith everything that we have and
(19:21):
we seek him in the midst ofthat and it changes the course
right, it changes the course itreally does.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
Intimacy is a word I don't think we use enough just
to piggyback.
There's a way we can kind ofunderstand it, even using the
word.
You're like in reference to God, you're into me, right?
You actually see me, you knowme, all of me, and yet you have
a plan and purpose and a callupon my life.
You forgive me and give me anupward aim.
I mean, it's wild when werecognize the God of the
(19:50):
universe who created everythingwe see and don't see, makes us
his temple, his dwelling place,and moves us in community out
into a life which is truly worthlife.
So I love that.
Second question when have youcome from?
Where are you going?
You have a number of questions.
How long will you mourn?
Why are you going?
You have a number of questions.
How long will you mourn?
Why are you crying or why haveyou forsaken me?
(20:10):
Let's get into the tough stuffhere.
I believe we have a lot of workto do culturally and maybe
within the church as well,around the topic of grief.
What makes this questionprofound?
As you kind of look at ourculture, as we connect to grief,
I'm not gonna.
I'm gonna set this up.
As a pastor, I have seen arobust change I've and I don't
think it's all good in how wehandle grief and the rituals
(20:33):
around grief.
Early on, it was everybody'sgoing to come out and we're
going to do the funeral within acouple, three, like no longer
than a week.
Right now a lot of thoserituals of grief extend out.
Well, we're going to plan ittwo, three.
I've had funerals that were upto a year later because it takes
a while to get everybody here.
And so the theology of afuneral we're crying, we're
(20:58):
sitting in it and then we'regoing.
We're going with the body.
Now I'm not going to get intopractices around the body.
There's a lot that can be saidthere.
I am a fan of I am notnecessarily a fan of cremation.
I'm just going to put that Ilike.
I like the body, honoring thebody in this life and and
anticipating the new resurrectedbody.
(21:20):
But early on this is 17 yearsago, my first, probably 20
funerals I did.
I immediately followed the bodyin a casket to a tomb and were
with the family as they placedthe body down and dirt was
thrown on top of the body in thehope of resurrected reality
coming on the last day, Likethere's such a distance from
(21:42):
death right now.
That I don't think isculturally healthy.
I think we're stuffing it and Idon't think we're inviting the
entire community, because it'smore than just the family.
It's the family and extendedfamily and the friends.
This is not as it should be.
So talk to us about the cultureof grief, or lack thereof, that
is present, especially in theWest and in the American context
(22:05):
, Charissa.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Yeah, so this is book number two, the 17 Questions of
Grief, and it's a veryincredibly personal book.
So when I dive into book two,there was even a chapter that I
wrote that I had to getpermission.
I had to go to somebody and say, is it okay if I share this
story?
Because grief is the loneliestemotion that a human will feel,
(22:26):
because we can all lose the sameperson, but we experience it so
incredibly different and wehave experienced that even as
our own family, and so I waswriting.
I started writing the book kindof right after Christmas and you
know, 2025 starts and within 10days I am not joking, within 10
days we lost five people.
(22:47):
Five and I just remember goingLord, I don't need any more
source material, I got plentyLike I mean, you know, in just
this way, but you're absolutelyright the way each of those five
deaths was handled and becauseI was already in this spirit of
like empathy and writing andunderstanding and just being
(23:08):
really mindful of watchingdifferent people go through it,
god was teaching me in all ofthose incredible stories of
honoring people and you'reabsolutely right, some of them
were like immediately and I sawthe family of God come around
people beautifully and the sadthing that I've seen beautifully
(23:37):
and the sad thing that I'veseen.
I remember I grew up in such asmaller Lutheran church and if
somebody passed in our family,the whole church came.
It was such an honoring thingto know that the family of God
was with you and cared for youand was there to sustain you,
even if they didn't know theperson, they knew you and they
wanted to be there for you.
And so I've seen some of that,like you said, I've seen.
(23:57):
One of them is still we stillhave not had a service for one
of those five, very much to thepoint that you made.
And so, yeah, I think theculture around it has really
shifted.
And I think it really comes downto and I watch this a lot and
(24:18):
I'm sure you can relate to this,ted there's just a very
uncomfortability with theemotion of grief Because, again,
it does feel very isolating.
The way we will look at it isvery different and even the
question of can I feel this way?
I've sat with people and I knowyou probably have too that
grief, even at times maybe, hascome as a relief.
Man, that person has beensuffering for a long time and so
(24:39):
then that person's like I'mrelieved, but is it okay for me
to be relieved that they're withJesus now?
You see just this wave of notbeing able to deal with it, even
in the second book.
As I'm dealing with grief, we'retalking about grieving all
kinds of different losses, right, and I see a culture right now
that I think is very I'll put itthis way very angry, and I
(25:02):
think the longer that they sitwith it, they'll learn that it's
not actually something thatthey're angry about.
It's something that they'regrieving because it's the loss
of an idea, it's the loss of afuture, it's the loss of all
these things.
But the core motion that'srisen to the surface is anger.
But the longer that they sitwith it they'll start to
understand.
Actually I'm grieving somethingin the midst of this, but anger
(25:24):
is an easier emotion, it's likewe can understand.
You know what I mean.
And grief, I think, is one thatreally shapes us to our core.
One of the ones that Eric and Ihad to walk through in the
midst of the beginning of theyear was, you know, obviously
within our own family.
Honestly, right now, as wespeak, I am waiting for my aunt
(25:47):
to be received into the arms ofJesus, and I'm grateful and
thankful for that, because she,I absolutely know that and she
knows where she's going, and sothere's a huge sense of hope and
peace in the resurrection right.
And so she has suffered for along time and so we will grieve
on this side of heaven for sure.
But we are also going torejoice for her that she's
(26:09):
receiving her heavenly rest.
And I think that's what's sohard for some people is
depending also how the griefcomes right If it's sudden, if
you know if the person's abeliever or not, all these
different things that arewrapped up in it.
And again, I think it alwayscomes down to and I hear this
from people so many more timesif I knew it was the last time,
(26:31):
if I knew it was going to be thelast time I was going to get to
talk to that person, or do youknow what I mean?
Because, again, that grief isshaped in.
I don't get to have another oneof those moments, I don't get
to have another conversation, Idon't get to have another hug, I
don't get to fill in the blank,and I think we really struggle
with that.
But you and I's buddy, zachZender, I think, does a
beautiful job with this and hetalks about it at the gathering,
(26:53):
which is like death is a middleword, it's not the final word.
Cancer is a middle word it'snot the final word.
But yet we so get caught up inour human nature and our day to
day that we struggle withgetting past that.
God gets the final word, and soit's hard, and so we sit with
(27:13):
it and we grow around it, or wedeal with it, or people say
things to us that is incrediblyuncomfortable and they're trying
to be well-meaning and it justdoesn't come across.
And so how do we also deal withthat?
I heard a friend say recently,as he was was dealing with grief
, that people were telling himstories about the person and he
(27:37):
was like I didn't know what todo with it, because it doesn't
always even that's not theperson I knew.
But you're telling me the storyabout this person that I love
and I'm thankful because I'mgetting to hear a different side
of a story, but I don't knowthat person and what am I
supposed to do with that?
How do I hold that?
How do I honor that?
And I do.
I think it's.
Again.
(27:57):
Grief is an interesting emotionbecause it is that loss of that
hope and that future that wehave in our mind of what we want
it to look like.
And so we also struggle withthat because, again in our own
human condition we want to be alittle G-God sometimes and say
this is the way it was supposedto go and there's a real
(28:19):
surrender to.
There's a different plan,whether we understand it fully
or not.
And, like I said, we've walkedthis road a lot in our family
and have talked about grief alot in our family and I just
always come back to that ofmeeting God in the midst of
(28:41):
struggling and grief and thosequestions really kind of tie
into that.
When we look at each one ofthose individual questions that
you kind of talked about,they're so different even in the
midst of those.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
What's your favorite story of Jesus around grief?
I'll give you mine and you cantalk about it, or something I
mean all of John 11, right, isthe story of Jesus and Lazarus
and his tearing coming.
He could have, but he doesn'tQuestions about why.
(29:15):
If you'd only been here, youknow, and the different kind of
responses to grief.
Martha ends up going out,giving Jesus what for a little
bit, and Mary stays behind, kindof despondent, and you see
those different reactions.
You see the confession of faith, um, of Martha, which we often
(29:36):
throw Martha under the bus, butshe, she talks about the
resurrection life.
Right, um, and there, therewill come a day of resurrection.
I believe it and I just amgrieving it right now.
And and then, and then, uh, Ithink one of the biggest
metaphors for me is Lazaruscomes out of the grave.
He's got to die again, and inthe next chapter they're trying
(29:59):
to kill him, or maybe it's evenat the end of that chapter.
They're trying to put him todeath because he's a signpost of
the resurrection life that'sfound in Jesus.
That's, that's a bummer, um,and then, and then he, but he
comes out of the grave and Jesussays help, help him with his
grave claws.
You know it's awkward.
He's naked underneath theseclothes and stuff, and so
there's some honor of the bodyand we all kind of come out of
(30:21):
the tomb day by day.
This is what repentance is, butwe got these grave claws that.
We need people to be kind to us, you know, to care for us, and
so, yeah, I think the story ofLazarus is my favorite.
There's tears, jesus weeps,there's a theology of deep grief
and crying.
Jesus weeps over death.
This is not how it should beand that's why I've come Any
(30:43):
comments on the story of Lazarusor other stories of Jesus
handling grief.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Yeah, so that's my favorite one, and it's not in
this book, but it is in thegrief book, right, the question
of do you believe this?
Right, Like, I am theresurrection of life, Do you
believe this?
I think that's an incrediblequestion that he asked in the
midst of this grief.
And you're absolutely right,that's such a beautiful story of
different people responding togrief and the different ways,
and I love that.
(31:07):
I love the take the graveclothes off, Like we have to
remember that.
That's that, that is our job.
Like leave it behind, Right,you know, and and um it, yeah,
that's what that?
That really is one of thedriving themes, uh, in book two
is all around the as some of thestory of Lazarus.
I break it down, uh, quite abit so.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
Love it.
I think it's when's the storyof Jesus healing the girl who
died while he healed the womanon the way right who touched his
garments and then don't come,now she's dead.
She's not dead, she's justsleeping.
And everybody laughs at Jesus.
I love we're walking throughMark right now.
Jesus doesn't care what otherpeople think about him, like at
(31:51):
all.
His family's throwing him underthe bus.
He's a crazy man.
The Pharisees are saying he'spossessed by a demon.
People are laughing at him whenhe says she's just sleeping and
Jesus just goes about doing histhing, making all things new.
Any take on kind of how Jesus isjust like so on mission.
It seems like such a tritething to say because he's the
(32:11):
son of God, but like Jesus isjust.
He knows what's in the heartsof men.
He's connected in his identityto the father.
He's asking amazing questions,he's connecting with people, but
he's got a mission and his eyesare set, like Flint, to
Jerusalem, to a cross and do anempty tomb.
What is it about Jesus as thehealthiest human that just gives
you a lot of joy.
I mean, it lights me up when Ithink of how Jesus is just so on
(32:33):
mission.
Teresa, what are your thoughts?
Speaker 2 (32:34):
Well, and, like you said, I think it's in his timing
right, like it's always in histiming.
And you see him go out of theway to meet the Samaritan woman
at the well, like he would havenot.
Like you know what I mean, likehe very is intentional in his
walk and in his mission andmaking sure that the right quote
, unquote.
People see certain things right, like for the word to go out
(32:57):
and, like you said, lazarusbeing like the very next, like,
oh, we got to get rid Because,as that was building, as that
was growing, as people werecoming to belief in who Jesus
was, that was such an incrediblething.
Because, again, I think it'salways amazing to me that God's
plan was us.
Because I'm like, imagine thedisciples just standing there
(33:20):
watching him ascend to heavenand be like that was a cool
story Time to go back to.
You know what I mean.
And they just went back totheir regular lives.
The fact that they could havedone that.
And I wonder sometimes in ourtoday society if people would
have been like, all right, thatwas cool.
I'm like, all right, let's justget back to like doing what
we're doing, that they were soon, stay still, that he really
(33:41):
modeled that for his people.
And I know you and me likethat's part of our mission, is
(34:04):
like we want to be on mission,we want to, we want, we want
2000 years from now, there to bepeople here because of the
impact of somebody hearing thegospel, because of maybe an
interaction with us or somebodythat we encouraged in the faith.
You know, that's the beauty ofseeing the generations
(34:24):
throughout history just reallycapture the story and see
themselves in that relationshipwith Jesus.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
Yeah, One of your questions is whom shall I send?
Right, yeah, our God is asending God From the Father,
father sending the Son, fatherand the Son sending the Holy
Spirit, trying God sending thechurch, the church moving out,
saying here am I send me?
And it's obviously connected tothe Old Testament story.
Why is that such an importantquestion?
Whom shall I send, teresa?
Speaker 2 (34:53):
Because the church can never lose sight of the
priesthood of all believers.
And I think sometimes weoutsource faith and we think, oh
, somebody else will do it,somebody else will figure it out
.
And it is so incrediblyimportant that if we're going to
pass on the faith to the nextgeneration, that we all see
ourselves as part of that.
(35:14):
It is not just the job of thepastor, not just the job of the
youth minister, not just the jobof even parents.
We all, as the body of Christ,have to see ourselves as part of
that and I love that in ourbaptismal liturgy like that, we
as a church get asked thatquestion will you support and
encourage and all these things?
And we should boldly thatshould be the loudest resounding
(35:35):
like we will, with the help ofGod, in our congregations in the
midst of that, because it doestake every single one of us God
does not have grandchildren, heonly has children and so we have
got to be a part of that in themidst of like passing the faith
on to those next generations.
And it does take every singleone of us using these incredible
gifts that God has given us tolove on the people around us.
(35:56):
That's what he's given them tous to do is to love God and love
others, and as you go out, willyou have moments where you're
fearful, doubting, questioning.
Speaker 1 (36:05):
Yeah, that's just the way it is and that calls us
constantly independence upon Godand his work.
If this is about me, this isone of my like pre-sermon
prayers.
If this is about me, I'm reallygoing to mess this up.
Come, holy Spirit, give me joy,help me to get out the way so
that you can take center stageand people can know and follow
and experience your word andyour love for us.
(36:26):
But one of your questions iswhy do you doubt?
Why do you doubt?
Is doubt sin?
Talk about doubt a little bit.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
Yeah, I think this is so important for young people
to know because they're going todoubt and doubt is not a sin.
I think that's so incrediblyimportant for people to hear,
because sometimes, when we getaround the Genesis story, it's
this idea like well, theydoubted.
It's never about the doubt,it's what we do with our doubt,
it's the next step.
Right, it is always the nextstep.
(36:52):
Do we not think that Jesusdidn't see things that were not
like godly things to see?
But it's what you do with thatnext step.
And so, in the garden, insteadof saying, okay, I have a
question, where do I go fortruth?
I go to God, like, instead ofturning back to God and going
God, is this that tree that youtold us not to Like?
You know what I mean?
And it's where do we go for thesource of truth and doubt?
(37:14):
We're all going to have doubtat different times in our faith
development, in our searching ofGod, like we are going to
question.
And what I actually think doubtis can be a really beautiful
thing, because if it can createus to be curious where we seek
after truth and after God, godcan actually use our doubt to do
beautiful things in our lives,to help us dig deeper, to pull
(37:38):
up the roots, to pull up theweeds of the things that don't,
that are not serving us.
As we seek him, as long as,again in our doubt, we go to the
source, and the source of ourtruth and life is him.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
I don't know that I've ever connected doubt to
adventure, doubt to calling, andI like, I like that.
I'm being called up and out.
You're sending me, god.
It's going to be interesting tosee how this all concludes,
right, I don't know the end ofmy story, like how many days I
(38:09):
have, the people that are goingto come and go, and uh.
My only orientation toward life,though and I think this is
being, this is being provenscientifically, philosophically
and theologically is that thereis this upward call toward
adventure and I get to be a partof it.
I'm not the hero of the story.
Jesus is the hero of the story.
The word of God is the hero ofthe story, but I get to be a
(38:31):
part of it, and a small, smallhero I'm not the big H here, but
a small hero in my context, inmy, in my community.
I'm the hands and feet of Jesusand, as I'm moving out, I just
don't know how all this is goingto play out and I don't know
why God, you allow these certainthings.
But I'm taking my why, I'mtaking my questions, I'm taking
(38:53):
my doubt, but I have a spirit of, and I like that.
I just have a spirit ofcuriosity and humility we're
just going to see.
Honestly, for me and our workwith the ULC, that's often how I
feel, like we're askingdifferent questions of the
church and various systems andstructures and leaders et cetera
, like I don't exactly know.
I know the end result is morepeople knowing and following
(39:14):
Jesus.
I know the end result is allthings made new.
But we live in a broken realityand I just sometimes think that
leaders, we want certainty.
Right, give me the exact Idon't know.
I think certain we wantcertainty and comfort.
Exactly.
We want certainty and comfortand I think the origin of that
(39:34):
is pride.
Certainty is around pride,comfort is around fear.
Now I take all of that to theGod of love who overwhelms my
fear, and the God of humilitywho, little old you, you get to
be a part of this big thing.
Don't get the big head.
You know, I see Jesus and thedisciples coming back right.
Don't get the big head.
Rejoice that your names arewritten in the kingdom of heaven
after they did spectacularthings casting out demons,
(39:57):
healing the sick, proclaimingthe kingdom of God, right, and I
don't.
There's no room for pride orfor or for fear.
I mean the perfect love of God.
It casts out fear.
But yeah, I like that a lot.
That doubt is connected tocuriosity, adventure rather than
shame.
That's really good, charissa.
Speaker 2 (40:13):
Well, I think people struggle with it because I'm a
very curious person.
I ask a lot of questions and Ihave to be really mindful
sometimes when I ask questions,because I know that it can come
across as I'm being a challenger, right, or like I'm down, and
it's like no, I'm just being.
I'm trying to really be curious, I'm trying to lean in, I'm
trying to understand morebecause I want to understand,
(40:33):
and I do think people do getchallenged by it.
But if you can, if you can havethat spirit of curiosity, leads
to a deeper understanding.
I, when we talk about doubt, Ilove looking at other people in
scripture that had doubts thatGod completely honored in their
questioning, right, like I meaneven Moses himself.
Like, like God, how's thisgoing to be?
(40:54):
Like, you know, mary, how canthis be?
I'm a virgin.
Like we see these differentquestions of like, this
curiosity of like how's thisgoing to happen?
And we see God do amazingthings through them.
Because again, they're like,well, you know, tell them I am
who I am, you know what I mean.
Like I am the great I am.
And for Mary, like, well, letit be so, if that's what the
(41:15):
Lord wants, I'm open, you know.
And so we see these beautifulthings where God also honors the
curiosity.
And so that's where I thinkit's really important that when
we talk and we center sometheology around doubt, that we
don't make doubt this horriblesin, that doubt, what we do with
our doubt, does matter rightLike we need to talk about that,
(41:38):
but at its core it can actuallybe a really beautiful thing.
Speaker 1 (41:40):
Intimately connected to a life of prayer, the more I
think about it, bringing yourcare.
Cast all your cares upon him,all your questions upon him,
because he cares, he cares foryou.
Hey, last question, this is sofun.
Why did Jesus need to ask Peter, do you love me?
One of your questions, does heask the same of us?
If so, why so?
Do you love me?
Let's talk about that one.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
Man.
That's such a personal questionright that he gets to the heart
of it.
You know, like, do you love me?
And when we think about whatthe definition of love is right
and we really kind of break itdown, that again him and Peter
had this incredible relationship, this incredible closeness,
this incredible intimacy, thatwe've used this word a couple
(42:20):
times.
And when we get to outside,where Jesus is inside and
preparing and being broughtbefore the Sanhedrin, all these
different things that Peter is,this guy that's like God, I will
never betray you, I'll fight tothe death, like all these
different things.
And yet when he doesn't, is notstanding with the power and the
(42:43):
strength of the disciples andespecially Jesus by his side.
I don't know the man, I don'tknow him, I'm not with him.
Right, and and I think so manyof us can fall victim to that,
especially some of our youngerpeople right now Like, I don't
know him.
You know they're so fearful ofbeing tied to labels or whatever
(43:06):
else and at the root, it's notabout the label of.
You know, you're a Jew, allthose different things.
Right, like, as Peter was beingasked, oh well, you're from
that region, you have to beright, like you have to be oh
well, you're from that region,you have to be right, like, you
have to be one of his followers.
And it comes down to like thatrelationship with Jesus alone.
And when he expresses this, Ido not know him that when this
(43:27):
restoration happens in John, youknow it's this.
Do you love me?
And loving somebody again,fully known, fully loved.
Yes, lord, I love you.
You know what I mean.
Like that, there is that repairin the relationship of you know
.
Yes, I want this.
And Jesus incredibly challengeshim.
(43:48):
And even at the end of thatstory, the very thing that Peter
was trying to say, jesus tellshim like you will lose your life
for me, point blank.
Suffering is coming and that'swhat you were trying to save and
I understand that.
But at the end of the day, doyou love me?
And I think it's an incrediblequestion that he asked of us,
(44:10):
because if we love him, how dowe show up?
It's one of the questions that Iask our kids a lot when
sometimes they're maybe kind oflike not exactly making the best
decisions or on the right road.
It's that question of like youknow, how are you representing
yourself, how are yourepresenting us?
How are you representing God inthese places and like, if you
want to be known you know, wehear it all the time If they
(44:32):
will know we are Christians byour love.
How are we loving the world andGod completely?
When Jesus himself gets askedwhat's the greatest commandment?
Love the Lord, your God, withall your heart, soul, mind and
understanding, and love yourneighbor as yourselves.
That question of do you love meis getting to the number one
commandment.
It's getting to that veryquestion Do you love me and do
(44:55):
you love others?
And if you're going to say yes,then we got to show up that way
.
We got to show up that way.
Speaker 1 (45:01):
Isn't it interesting how I mean thou shalt have no
other gods before, every sin isa breaking of the first.
We're idol making factories,right, we have passions and
desires that go after createdthings rather than the creator.
That's very true.
But it's interesting that Jesusgoes to love because the
commandment, I mean there's.
There's love that's around thegiving of the commandments in
(45:23):
the old Testament, but thatJesus highlights the posture of
love.
Loving God, loving, lovingothers, that's, that's a life
which is truly life.
Listening and being dependentupon the God who's in love with
me, and letting him know thathe's number one, and then moving
out as an image bearer to bringlove and light into the world.
That's the best thing ever.
(45:44):
Peter's story is so fascinating.
He's gone back to his formervocation.
Whether he'd get around to thekingdom-expanding stuff, maybe
in time, and the Holy Spirithasn't come yet either.
But I think it's the, thehumanity of it all.
They, they see him and theythen the whole story of the
catch a fish and Peter gets out.
He's got to get to Jesus.
(46:05):
He's not crippled by guilt orshame.
He, he, he's kind of he uh,performs acts before he thinks,
and I can relate.
I can relate to that sometimes,whatever it takes yeah,
whatever it takes to get toJesus.
And then there's this awkwardnature around the breakfast and
(46:25):
the beach scene, right, no onereally says anything.
They all knew it was the Lord.
And Jesus then initiates aconversation with Peter.
He's very, very kind.
And then the final point, itcan't just be about us.
Then you know, go feed my sheep, feed my sheep.
This is the higher calling thatyou have.
You remember, right, we're?
We're fishing for people here.
Go, go feed them.
(46:46):
I'm the good shepherd, you'rean under shepherd.
Get after it, son.
And uh, and he did, I mean andacts.
Two is is a perfect case inpoint.
When the Spirit descended,everybody looks around.
Bueller, bueller, who's goingto talk?
Peter, everybody's talking.
But Peter gives the most epicsermon of all time, connecting
Jesus as the promised Messiahfor the Jews, who are then
diaspora, who are the sent onesout from that place.
(47:08):
And the world was never, never,the same again, because of the
power of the love of Christ andthen the love of the apostles
who carried his love into theworld.
You're a gift, charissa.
Thank you for writing this.
I had so much fun talking toyou.
And if people want to get thebook, the 17.
Speaker 2 (47:26):
Questions of God and the Impact on your Life Today.
How can they do so?
So, again, you can head over tothe website or you can go to
Amazon, and if you go to Amazontoday, you'll also see that I
have uploaded some additionalbooks and some resources there.
Again, I am always wanting youto be diving into God's Word,
and so I created some weeklysermon note journals as well, so
that hopefully you know.
Again, one of my olderdaughters was just taking a
(47:48):
spiral notebook and writing inher spiral notebook every Sunday
and I was like we could do alittle bit better than that.
So I've created a lot ofdifferent covers.
The insides are all the same andI love that.
It's got a little piece of mein it, one of the things that I
like to teach about us activelylistening and worshiping with
God and how we.
Now we know we believe and nowwe do.
(48:09):
So we have the head, heart andhands in there and so, like, as
you go to worship and you aremeeting God in that beautiful
place we talked about thatearlier and you're meeting God
in this beautiful place, what ishe calling us to know, believe
and do each and every Sunday,and if we can come in that
spirit of curiosity, everysingle time we come to worship,
(48:29):
is God, I am here and I want toknow you more, and by knowing
and learning these things, I'mgoing to show up differently.
I think that's a powerful thingif we can get into that space
of really truly understandingwhat worship is all about.
And so, and hopefully you know,before long book two will be out
(48:50):
, and so it's a whole series.
When the whole thing is done,you will have an entire rainbow.
That's why there's differentcolors, and so all those spines,
when you finally line them allup, will be a rainbow which goes
back to again the whole pointof the 17 and the promises of
God.
And so, again, I just hope thateach and every one of them are
going to be a blessing.
We're going to be talking aboutpurpose and identity, and all
(49:13):
these different things will bein these different books, and so
I just pray that it's ablessing to individuals and the
church at large.
Speaker 1 (49:19):
Every time I talk to you, teresa, I'm left with a
crazy amount of Jesus juice.
I'm just like so on fire, inlove with the God, who's in love
with me, and he's in love withyou too.
And listener, please like,subscribe, comment, take this in
wherever it is.
You take it in.
It, help gets the word out.
And you know, sometimes in theULC podcast and Lead Time my
other one we have these kind ofuncomfortable conversations and
(49:41):
what I like about the podcast isby my name, like my whole life
is not all these uncomfortablekind of goofy.
The vast majority of my life isjust locking arm in arm as a one
leader among many, many leaders, trying to bring love and light
out into the world, asking bigquestions, letting God, through
his word, answer them and andbeing called up.
You know, I think a lot oftimes you can't control what
(50:04):
people think about like who youare and how you present yourself
to the world, and that's okay.
You only, you only need theapproval of God.
But I say all that to sayconversations like this are way
more fun than conversationsaround pastoral formation and
prior approval, just saying it'sa good day.
Go, make it a great day,sharisa, you're a gift to me and
the body of Christ.
Thank you, sister, thank you.
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