July 2, 2025 • 46 mins
Ever felt like your Sunday worship experience has nothing to do with your Monday morning reality? You're not alone. In this illuminating conversation with Dr. Jim Marriott, we dive deep into the profound yet often misunderstood connection between liturgy, discipleship, and mission in the Christian life.
Dr. Jim Marriott explores how liturgical practices can bridge the gap between Sunday worship and everyday discipleship, providing a framework for living the Christian life in all contexts. He challenges us to move beyond compartmentalized faith to an integrated understanding of how liturgy shapes our identity and mission.
• Liturgy forms Christians to live the Christian life in the world, connecting Sunday worship to Monday living
• The divine service is not just about one hour of worship but about shaping believers for their mission throughout the week
• Two axes of discipleship: passive righteousness (what God does for us) and active righteousness (how we live toward others)
• Three tiers of liturgical understanding: story, Word and Sacrament, and rites/ceremonies
• The Kyrie ("Lord have mercy") is not just penitential but an act of advocacy for those in need
• Christian worship should equip people for hospitality, generosity, and blessing others daily
• Every home can be a liturgical space where faith is formed and practiced
• Unity in liturgy doesn't require uniformity in practices
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to the Tim Allman Podcast.
It's a beautiful day to bealive.
Pray.
The joy of Jesus is with you.
Today.
We're in the season of Lent aswe're recording this and I get
the privilege of sitting downwith one of my favorite
historians.
Professor, pastor, liturgist aswell as worship leader.
This man is honestly one of thegreatest organists in the
Lutheran Church, missouri Synod.
(00:24):
We don't judge by greatness.
Greatness in the kingdom isabout weak things, but
nonetheless this man has beengifted by Jesus in beautiful
ways.
Today I get to hang out with myclassmate from back 2004,.
Reverend Dr, you weren't areverend nor a doctor at this
point, but in 2004, go Bulldogs.
I got to listen to Reverend DrJim Marriott play in chapel for
(00:46):
those years and I was like man.
The Lord's going to dosomething special in this man's
life and history is born thattrue by the Spirit's power.
He serves as an assistantprofessor of music and
department coordinator atConcordia University, texas.
He previously occupied theKreft Chair for Music Arts at
Concordia Seminary in St Louis,where he served as the Director
of Music Arts and Professor ofWorship Courses.
(01:07):
He held a holy undergraduateand graduate degrees in parish
music from Concordia, nebraska,concordia, wisconsin.
He earned his PhD then inliturgical studies from Garrett
Evangelical Theological Seminaryin Evanston, illinois, with an
emphasis in liturgicalenculturation.
Okay, we're going to hang outthere a little bit.
He was ordained into thepastoral ministry through
Concordia Seminary in St Louisand he remains an active pastor.
(01:32):
He's just about ready to gopreach a Lenten sermon later on
this afternoon.
He's a church musician,lecturer, composer and performer
across the US.
Jim and his awesome wife,christy, have been married for
19 years and are blessed withtwo kids.
I got to meet your kids.
They are awesome, joel andKirsten.
What a joy to be with you today, jim.
How are you doing, brother?
Speaker 2 (01:48):
I'm doing great, Tim.
It's always good to be with youand I appreciate you very much.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Yeah, I love reading that bio man.
The Lord has allowed you tolearn a lot of things, and to
whom much is given, much isrequired, and so of these
learning opportunities.
Well, let's dig into thisquestion, though.
What's the relationship?
Just go right in the deep end,jim.
What's the relationship betweenliturgy, discipleship?
Speaker 2 (02:14):
and mission.
Let's start there.
Yeah, it's a good question.
A lot of my research andemphasis has been on trying to
connect Sunday to Monday, right?
You know and this I think it'sa big problem for the church
that we practice church as ifit's one hour on Sunday and then
, you know, we kind of gothrough the rest of life, you
know, for the other hours in theweek, and so it's very tricky
to connect what we do on Sundayand have it have some meaning on
Monday.
(02:34):
So when I'm talking about theconnection of liturgy and
mission, I'm really trying totalk about how we form
Christians to live the Christianlife in the world.
And I do think that the divineservice or our worship practices
are formational, like I thinkthey do something and I think
they're doing something on us inorder to form us in particular
ways to be the body of Christ inthe world Monday through
(02:56):
Saturday.
So that's really what I'm up toin trying to help the church
make those connections.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Well, that seems to be a very Lutheran thing to do,
right, jim?
I mean, luther was remarkablyconcerned not just with though
it's very important the preachedword, the heard and believed
word, but how that word was thenshaping this is the origin of
the small catechism, right howthat preached word is shaping
discipleship in the home.
Say more about how the liturgygets lived out in home, because
(03:23):
I saw this with you.
You took us through apre-dinner prayer, some sort of
a collect, I think, and it wasjust spectacular.
Liturgy is in your home, jimMarriott, isn't that right?
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Yeah, that's true, and that particular resource
that we used that day was a bookcalled Every Moment Holy.
There's three volumes of themnow and they're lovely prayers,
lovely little liturgies fordifferent moments, the idea that
every moment would be holy andevery moment covered in prayer.
In those volumes there's even aliturgy or a prayer for
changing diapers.
So it's pretty fun to see howevery moment can be deemed holy
(03:57):
through the life of prayer, andreally even more than just that.
But you know, it's the ideathat in the divine service we
receive particular gifts and wehear the word of God preached,
we receive the sacraments and wedo so so that we might have
forgiveness of sins and thepromise of life and salvation.
And that's what we I mean we'redoing that on Sunday, but that
(04:17):
doesn't stop on Sunday, like welive that life Monday through
Saturday.
And so you know what I'minterested in in my home whether
I'm arguing with my teenagersor trying to be a faithful
husband or you know all of thesedifferent things is how do I
practice forgiveness, how do Ibring life, how do I advocate
for salvation in my family andmy community and throughout the
(04:38):
world?
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Yeah Well, shouldn't we be about training every
father and mother to be aworship leader of sorts, a
liturgist of sorts?
I don't think?
We often talk about it that way, and it sets up these kind of
weird dichotomies like, oh, Icould never do what Jim does,
you know.
It's like, nah, you could andshould.
We're just talking the thingsof God.
Say more about how every homeis a holy place, with those
(05:01):
parents who have been given theultimate responsibility of
discipleship of their kids,establishing spiritual rhythms
with their kids.
Say more about that, jim.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Exactly right.
Well, and you brought up thesmall catechism and that's a
great example or paradigm ofthis type of idea.
And in the home we are formingpeople to live the Christian
life and different people havedifferent home structures and
different home relationships.
So this is inclusive.
You know, it doesn't matterwhat your home situation looks
like, it is a chance to live theChristian life.
(05:37):
And even with the catechism, ifyou look at the purpose behind
the catechism was to create aset of discipleship behaviors.
Right, I mean Luther writes thecatechism because people are
acting immorally and they don'tknow the gospel at all.
Right, you know the gospel.
I mean Luther writes thecatechism because people are
acting immorally and they don'tknow the gospel at all.
Right, you know the gospel isnot producing the fruit of faith
.
And you know, in the lives ofthe people they're just not
acting out, you know, so hewrites the catechism, you know,
so that households can learn thefaith and then act it out.
(05:57):
And we can talk more about that, how it works theologically.
But what I'm really interestedin is, like discipleship
behavior, what it looks like tolive out the Christian life.
So a lot of us reduceChristianity to this kind of
head knowledge type thing thatif we have the right answers
then we say the right things,we're good with God and we can
(06:18):
kind of do whatever we want.
And that's actually, you know,that confuses the idea of
righteousness and the idea ofliving the sanctified life.
Our Lutheran conf confuses theidea of righteousness and the
idea of living the sanctifiedlife.
Our Lutheran confessions, theidea of new obedience, like the
good works that we do are forthe sake of our neighbors, so
that we can make Christ known inthe world.
That's really important.
That's what we want to do athome.
So, like, the good things thatwe do at home are the things
(06:39):
that extend from home to school,from home to work, from home,
you know, to other places.
So, yes, it's critical thatfamilies, would you know, know,
live, study and embody theChristian life at home, and I
think it's even not even morecritical, but it's equally
critical that at church onSunday, that we're really
focused on these behaviors sothat we can model for families,
(07:02):
when they, you know, live theirfamily life, what it is to live
out and be the people of God.
So that's the connection ofSunday to Mondays, the very
stuff that God has done for us,you know, forgiving us our sins,
bringing us the promise of lifeand salvation.
So these are the very thingsthat we're doing for the sake of
the world and you know, goduses us, by the power of the
Holy Spirit, to make witness ofthat in faith.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Well, I don't know how it could be any other way.
I mean, this is just the wayJesus lived.
He invited the disciples.
Think about this.
How weird would it have been ifJesus would have just said you
know what guys, we're going togather together one hour a week
and I'm going to give anincredible.
It's going to be an hour, notmuch longer, and I'm just going
to like I'm going to say somethings and we're going to do
some stuff, but then you're justgoing to kind of go.
(07:44):
No, they were with Jesus, likeall the time.
And so our discipleship isobviously Saturday and Sunday,
all the way through the upcomingSaturday into Sunday.
And where else would that startbut in the home?
And so I think you know this isa leadership podcast.
We have so much room to growand this is all grace, right,
(08:07):
this isn't shame, but invitingparents to come and learn and
practice not just the words butthe way of Jesus, gentle and
light yoke of Jesus, and howthat shapes the way we care for
our kids and help our kids growand mature and kind of own their
spiritual by the Spirit's power, own their spiritual journey so
they become those that have thecharacter of Christ that are
(08:28):
comfortable speaking the wordsof Christ.
If we miss on that and I wouldsay and I'm painting it a little
bit of a broad brush here Ithink in a Christian America we
thought for a generation or two,maybe longer, but for a
generation or two like we couldget away.
And maybe this is a point ofunity, I think, within our tribe
the Lutheran Church, missouriSynod, where we could get away
(08:50):
with just entertaining people,making people feel comfortable
in that hour, and generally theChristian ethos would be
maintained in our homes.
How far have we fallen fromthat being true in our culture?
Any response there, jim?
Speaker 2 (09:04):
That's right.
Well, I mean, you said a littlebit earlier how could it be any
other way?
And this is the tragedy, tim,like there's a lot of churches
that practice this other ways,right, and if you think about,
you know, not just you knowattractional churches that are
entertaining, but theattractional churches that are
posturing themselves where thechurch, the building, the
(09:26):
location, is the only place tolike participate in the
Christian life.
Yeah, you know.
So now you have families thatare set up that you know the
whole point is to go to churchinstead of the whole point is to
be the church, and I think thatthat disconnect is really
problematic for our families.
For any kind of relationalstructure that you know the
solution you know manyconfirmation programs right now.
For any kind of relationalstructure that you know the
solution you know manyconfirmation programs right now
(09:48):
or any kind of catechesisprogram, the idea is, well, we
got to take them to church,we're going to go to the
building, we've got to, you know, you know, go to the place
where they'll be taught.
Then we're learning in ourhomes.
If we're relying on an hour onSunday to be the place where we
learn the Christian life, we'relost.
There's no way we an hour onSunday to be the place where we
learn the Christian life we'relost.
There's no way.
We have too many other outsideinfluences that are working on
(10:10):
us for too many other hours,teaching us different behaviors.
I spend more time watchingcollege football than I do in
church on Sunday.
You know.
So, like just from a sheer timestandpoint.
You know, if I'm not embodyingthose behaviors and taking
seriously catechesis anddiscipleship Monday through
Saturday, you know we can't relyon the church building to be
the only place of formation.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
So Christian worship, you say, is discipleship.
Christian worship could beattractional, christian worship
could be building-based.
Christian worship for us in ourtribe could be the holy man
doing holy things, rather thanequipping holy people for love
and good deeds in all of theirvocational spaces.
Anything more to say to whatChristian worship could be, even
(10:50):
in our Lutheran context.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
Yeah, no, that's exactly right.
And I've spent a lot of timewriting about and thinking about
this attractional model ofministry and most people kind of
, you know, locate theattractional model of ministry
with the megachurch who's doingmodern worship.
That is, you know, you know,kind of stereotypically
entertaining people and I don'tthink that that's a very good
(11:13):
practice.
And I think that some of ourmore higher ritual, maybe
liturgical, like all of thesewords don't mean much, but like
these liturgical, you know, orconfessional churches, a lot of
them are doing entertainmentjust the same way and they don't
mean to be doing it, but it'sthe exact same structure that
you come and you get entertainedand then you go and you know
(11:33):
the formation, the equipping.
We need to be very, veryconscientious about how we're
going through that process tomake sure that we're forming
people for the Christian life.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Hey, good, good, let's get into what Bob Kolb and
Chuck Aaron have written Two ofour beloved professors at
Concordia Seminary over theyears.
They say there are two axes todiscipleship.
Would you talk about that, Jim?
Speaker 2 (11:54):
Yeah.
So there's a lot of people thatuse kind of this framework, the
two kinds of righteousnessright, you know.
So, like you've got a passiverighteousness and active
righteousness, and this hassignificant liturgical
ramifications, I think, becauseyou start talking about, like,
performing the faith, or youknow these liturgical behaviors,
or you know things like that,that we're talking about
Christian formation and it cansound like works righteousness
(12:16):
that we have to earn favor withGod, and that's not it at all.
All of the things that happenin the divine service are God
first.
You know, god is the one thatis advocating for us.
God is welcoming us into hiskingdom.
God is acting with generositytowards us, god is inspiring us
praise and thanksgiving.
God is forgiving sins, god isbringing life, god is bringing
(12:38):
salvation.
All of these things.
We contribute nothing.
So that's the passiverighteousness axis and that
connects to active righteousness, which is mediated between me
and my neighbor.
So then you know, if God has,in Christ, welcomed me into his
kingdom, hospitality, then I intheable of the lost son.
That was the lectionary reading,and Jesus tells that parable to
(13:00):
the Pharisees and the scribeswho are upset that Jesus is
eating with tax collectors andsinners.
And so I had to, you know, dosome soul searching and I talked
about this in the sermon that,like my family, loves to
(13:22):
practice hospitality.
We love to host dinner parties.
We host ice cream parties,students at Concordia, texas,
where I teach members from ourchurch.
We love it.
It's great and it has been along time since we have welcomed
in the equivalent of the taxcollector and the center to our
table.
We host a lot of scribes and wehost a lot of Pharisees, but we
do not host a lot of taxcollectors and sinners.
(13:43):
So Jesus is telling thisparable, you know, against me,
like if I am the least of theseand Jesus has welcomed me into
his kingdom, you know, then it'smy, it's my duty in Christ to
go forward and to seek the leastof these.
And so this is the idea ofhospitality, you know, making
sure you see everybody and makea place for everybody.
(14:04):
There's one example, you knowit's this type of thing.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
I love that, jim, so much.
We're walking through theGospel of Mark in Lent and we
heard the story of why don'tyour disciples wash hands?
This is Mark 9, I believe youknow this is according to the
customs, the traditions of theelders, and the historical
background to that was there wasJewish high priest, you know,
(14:28):
temple priest ceremonialcleansing.
That took place.
But over time I find this funnyannotation as a worship leader
and yourself too they developeda ritual for cops and kettles
and even washing ceremonialbaptizo is the word baptizo
dining couches.
I was like, when was the lasttime you took part in ceremonial
dining couch washing?
So nonetheless, over time thatritual had gotten in the way of
(14:52):
what the ritual was for.
It's always for a relationship,first with God and for others.
So you see, in the divineliturgy, I love that we remember
our identity as children of God.
Oh, and as we move out into theworld, we see others as
children of God who may haveforgotten that their primary
identity.
I could walk through the entirereligion.
We're confessing people, we'reforgiving people, all because
(15:13):
we've received it, we give itaway.
Anything more to say there?
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Jim, right, and what I find when I look at other
churches and I talk to peopleabout this is people are stuck
in one or two of the like axes.
You know, either it's allpassive and we're not doing
anything, and so, like there'sno relationship between liturgy
and mission, because liturgy isthe only thing and so all it is
(15:37):
is going to church.
And then there's some that getlost in the social gospel aspect
of it, that all it is is livingfor the sake of neighbor and
they forget, you know, what Godhas done for us in Christ.
It's the connection of the twoof them that I think is really
important.
And this is the trajectory ofthe Augsburg Confession too,
right, you know, like Article 4,justification by grace through
faith.
Article 5, the office of theministry, the idea of word and
(15:59):
sacrament ministry.
Article 6, for new obedience,right.
So there's a connection betweenthis passive righteousness and
active righteousness, and theconnector is the church, right,
you know, is the office of theministry.
So that's pretty cool, that youknow God works this for us in
Christ and that we go and then,in Christ's name, work this for
(16:21):
the sake of the world, becausethe world needs to know Christ
and to know the redemption thathe has won for us.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
You talk about how you pray, that we broaden and
sharpen our understanding of theliturgy.
And then I had a question howis this connected to a form of
performance?
And let me just say somethingto kind of set that up a bit.
I like how the liturgyrestories us, Jim.
It takes us up out of our smallstories, our anxiety-filled or
(16:48):
maybe pride-filled stories, upinto God's grand love story.
Not just for me but for theentire cosmos, shown in the
person and work of Jesus, ittells a story of God's
redemptive love.
So the rituals that we walkthrough are all about
relationship, and so that's in asense for me and you can give
me your perspective that's howit broadens the awe and wonder
(17:09):
of the grand story I'm a part of.
And then the practices.
For me, as I'm interpreting,broadening and sharpening, the
practices become laser focused.
Here's this practice.
But it's not to like worshipthe practice, it's to broaden
our scope out to the one whogave us a glimpse and I'm
thinking now even Paul's words.
We see now through a mirror,dimly.
Then we shall see face to faceright, A glimpse, though
(17:29):
imperfect, of God's redemptivelove in that grand story.
Anything more to say there, Jim?
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Yeah, right, so you know whether it's his story.
I love that.
That's a great, you know, model, great paradigm, the idea of
identity formation, all of thesethings like being made new in
Christ, who and what we are,that's exactly right.
And you know the connection ofthat, being, you know, initiated
into that story.
This is what happens in baptismthat God writes his story on us
(17:56):
.
God, you know, the story of oursin is no longer our story,
it's now the story of God'ssalvation, and then we become
reconciling agents in the world,like our job is to make that
known.
So I frame this for my studentsat the university in terms of
ethics.
It's pretty interesting withthis, you know, two kinds of
righteousness to talk aboutethics right, because for God
(18:18):
there is grace and mercy andforgiveness for the sinner and
in the world there'saccountability.
Right, because for God there isgrace and mercy and forgiveness
for the sinner and in the worldthere's accountability.
Right, and the Christian is tolive as the body of Christ in
the world, while others, youknow, on this kind of horizontal
, you know, active righteousnesssphere, you know, are holding
people accountable.
We are extending forgiveness,you know, and radical
(18:41):
forgiveness, because we're theones that have received that
forgiveness in Christ and so weforgive.
It's interesting to play thatout for my students.
You know the murderer.
You know, before God, themurderer who confesses sin,
right, sin is forgiven.
Sin is faithful Faith in Christ.
The murderer, in the eyes ofthe world, is held accountable.
(19:02):
There's accountability.
The Christian's posture to themurderer is the posture of
Christ, not the posture of theworld.
Right, you know, and the worldcan hold people accountable and
the Christian forgives.
I mean, that is like it's mindblowing in terms of formation.
Right, like this is how we'resupposed to live, you know, in
Christ in the world, and I thinkit's really important and for
all the leaders out there toreally frame, you know, our
(19:25):
ethics and our worldview, basedon this Christian identity, this
Christian story.
What does it mean?
Like, who is God and what isGod doing?
God is constantly delivering.
God is constantly forgiving,God is constantly redeeming
people that don't deserve it,that scorn him, and we're called
to do the same.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
That's so good to counter.
I hear a little two kingdomtheology kind of coming through
without using that language.
But we release the person, thesinner, to the world and to good
government.
Praise be to God that sets andkeeps good rules according to
God's good law.
But then my perspective towardthat person that voted that way
or thinks that thing or has thatworldview, is love, not hate.
(20:05):
That's right, and there's somany examples of this.
I mean the early church gave usthe pinnacle example to honor
the emperor who's gonna becoming after you and only say
Jesus is Lord, you have no otherLord but Jesus and you cannot
say, well, it would beinappropriate, it'd be sin, and
they knew where they were going,so they would handle the sword
as it came.
(20:25):
They couldn't, because the HolySpirit lived in them, have
another Lord when Jesus was theonly Lord.
I mean that is why the earlychurch spread so much, because
there were these practices whichI love.
That Jesus is Lord is like thefirst creed, documented creed,
isn't that right?
(20:46):
That's right.
Very short creed but verypowerful in its orientation to
bring unity around a commonconfession both for the church
and for the church in the world.
You have three tiers.
I think this is really helpfulto piggyback on this Three tiers
of practices First is the story, second is word and sacrament,
and three are rites or ritualsand ceremonies.
And why is it helpful?
If you get these tiers out ofwhack which I would say
sometimes we get them mislabeledor the hierarchy gets inverted,
(21:09):
you're going to miss in someway shape or form.
So talk about the story,sacrament and ceremonies there,
jim.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, a lot of what's going on there is,
you know, when we use the termliturgy, we have to be pretty
clear what we mean, and there'sa lot of authors that have done
a lot of work on this thatliturgy in the broad sense is a
set of rituals and practicesthat forms you.
Right, this is the idea ofstory that restories you, and we
got all sorts of liturgies outin the world Again.
(21:37):
There's a college footballliturgy.
There's a liturgy of Amazon andonline shopping.
There's a liturgy of all sorts.
You know, like you could findall of the social media has, you
know, an infinite number ofliturgies to it that are forming
you in particular ways.
Doomscrolling is its own liturgy, right, you know like all of
these things are working.
So that's a big, broad view ofliturgy.
(21:58):
The narrow kind of definitionof liturgy, you know, is what
many of us might think of as theorder of service, whether you
find that in the hymnal or inthe bulletin or on the screens
or whatever, like whatever yourchurch is following in terms of
order of service.
So I try to help peoplenavigate both the broad and the
narrow sense of liturgy withthis type of tiered relationship
(22:21):
so that with the stories, thetop tier, and the story is
narrated through word andsacrament ministry.
Right, this is how the story istold.
The story is told through theproclamation of the word, the
story is told through theadministration of the sacraments
.
That's what we're doing.
And then that you know, word andsacrament ministry is performed
through rites and ceremonies,and this then gets back to the
(22:43):
idea of performance.
Like you know, we areperforming this.
It is the performance of ourfaith and we're performing them
through these various rituals,through these rites and
ceremonies.
So the rites and ceremoniesthemselves are not the liturgy
in the broad sense, they are theway that the story is told,
they're the method, the language, some of these behaviors.
And so that, when it comes toliturgical unity not liturgical
(23:07):
uniformity, but liturgical unityand the unity of the confession
of faith that is found in theidea of story that we tell the
same story together.
And then when we do that,lutherans, we do that through
word and sacrament ministry.
We're doing taking that veryseriously.
And so that's our liturgicalunity is telling that same story
through the ways that God haspromised to deliver those
(23:28):
promises.
And then the rites andceremonies yeah, you're good.
Yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
No keep going, keep going.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
The rites and ceremonies then are the language
, you know, kind of theinflection, the way the story is
told, so that might vary fromplace to place and context to
context you might use.
You know different rituals,different ceremonies, different
songs, different structures, butjust tell them the same story.
And that's where we need toreally find liturgical unity,
especially in our tribe.
(23:53):
You know, and this comes up alot, you know, when in our
confessions we talk about, youknow, not wanting to abandon the
mass and we uphold the mass.
Yep, so upholding the mass isthis idea of holding liturgical
unity where we're telling thesame story through word and
sacrament ministry, but we don'thave to have uniformity of
rights.
You know our confessions saythat.
(24:13):
So this is why we can haveliturgical unity without
liturgical uniformity, and thatbecomes very important for us.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Well, jim, I'm just making this, the light bulbs are
going off, so excuse me, butisn't that what happened in the
diverse telling of the Jesusstory in the four gospels?
Like I see diverse, diversestories that are chosen.
I mean, it's the feeding.
The 5,000 is like the onlystory that's told in all four of
the gospels.
(24:42):
Could.
Could Matthew been looking atJohn and being like, hey man,
you know, you gotta, you gottamake sure you get this, but
there's so many diverse storiesand then John's the only one
that gets the upper roomdiscourse, for goodness sake, I
mean, you know, of the washingof the feet and all the way to
the high priestly prayer andprayer for unity.
It the way to the high priestlyprayer and prayer for unity.
It's all these diverse anglesand that's what actually gives
(25:03):
more validity to the story isthe same story is told with a
number of different kind of substories, all pointing to the
ultimate story of life, perfectlife, death, burial and
resurrection and eventualascension of Jesus.
Connect the gospel stories toour liturgies.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
So that's a great insight, tim, and to see that as
enriching and I think that thatis really, you know, that would
be a gift that the church couldreceive is to see some of these
diverse perspectives anddiverse practices as enriching
rather than threatening.
Right, so that if we have adifferent view on something,
(25:39):
different lens, different way ofdoing something, well, what can
we learn from that and how canthat enrich what we are doing?
And that's a lot of what I'veseen over the course of my
career, you know, with differentchurches, with different
worship practices, let's say,you know, I've come a long way,
learning and growing from thingsthat maybe I didn't understand
or didn't like at one point, tohaving a very, you know, a
(26:01):
little bit more nuanced, youknow, way of saying, well, this
is helpful or this isn't helpful.
And I think we have to be ableto make a critique, and a
healthy critique, on things thatare not helpful, on things that
don't contribute to telling theright story through word and
sacrament ministry, right?
So?
If yes, then that's where thesetears come in Word and Sacrament
ministry, right.
So if and that's where thesetears come in If the rites and
(26:22):
ceremonies that we're usingaren't telling that story and
aren't, you know, working in theframework of Word and Sacrament
ministry, then we have aproblem.
That's not good.
But, as you know, if you canfit in that framework and use
resources that do that, thenit's easier to see these
different resources as enrichingrather than threatening or
divisive.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
I would love to see now we're speaking a little bit
more into the LCMS, so forgiveme those that are outside, but
this is pulling the curtain backa little bit I'd love to see a
diverse group of worship leaders, pastors and commission
ministers from across the Synodget together to find unity on an
ordo or a general order ofworship and not get too
(27:01):
prescriptive but descriptiveenough of the things that we
would like to see in ourservices, from invocation to
ascending and blessing and allthe things that kind of go in
between.
I've walked through the liturgymany times in my podcast so I'm
going to hesitate from doingthat but basically a service of
the word and a service of thetable and some other things that
kind of go around In the earlychurch.
A dear former colleague, drKent Burrison.
(27:22):
He was highlighting in theearly form those were the two
orders of worship service of theword and the service of the
table and then for us to saythere's some diverse worship
practices.
I think one of the argumentsthat just kind of gets
frustrating, I guess, is to saythat my context, and not just my
community's context, but mychurch context, is the exact
(27:44):
same as a Midwestern rule or asuburban context.
Here's what I've realized,having been in many different
churches, grown up as a pastor'skid.
Every church has its own ritesand ceremonies.
And for me to come in and sayI'm coming from another context,
here's that context rites andceremonies.
I really, really love this.
We should do this.
For me to come insert thoserites and ceremonies into a
(28:06):
place that already has their ownis very unwise, right?
I'll just give you threeexamples.
We ring the bell to start everyservice seven times.
It's the sign of Sabbath.
Rest, right?
Not every church has to have abell.
We have a bell.
The bell's been here before me.
It will be here after me.
We love the bell.
Like Christ Greenfield.
We hold hands at the end of theservice of the table.
If you don't like holding hands, well sorry.
(28:28):
We like to hold hands becauseit shows our unity to Christ,
since forgiven our unity andmission as forgiven people out
into the world, and then whenthe service ends, we close with
God is good all the time, andit's not because it's cute, it's
because it's true.
And good seasons and badseasons this is what we do.
For me to like I've come in,those predate me.
I bet those rites andceremonies will be here long
after I'm here.
(28:48):
This is the Christ Greenfieldway, and I could give you some
other smaller rites andceremonies.
But every church has uniquerhythms, right, unique
ceremonies, and I just thinkwe're very short-sighted when we
don't recognize the uniquecontext that this is all
liturgical worship, for goodnesssake.
You know, we agree on the orderof worship.
It's maybe going to look alittle nuanced in our context
(29:08):
but, my goodness, there has beenadaptation down through the
years in terms of rites andceremonies.
Over 2,000 years, very diversepractices, but I would say
they're mostly centered aroundthe word, centered around the
table.
Anything more to add there, jim?
Speaker 2 (29:21):
No, that's right, Exactly right.
Something I'm trying to helppeople realize is we don't have
to agree on the rites andceremonies right.
We don't even have to agreethat a particular rite or
ceremony is helpful.
And one of my colleagues, steveZink, has a beautiful way of
modeling this.
He'll say I trust you to dowhat's right in your context,
and there's some things thatI've described to Steve that we
(29:41):
do in our context.
And you know he'll say I trustyou that that works in your
context.
Now, I know him, he's my brotherin Christ and we have good
conversations, and so I knowpart of what he means by that is
, I probably wouldn't do that inmy context, but he doesn't say
that.
And he doesn't say, well,you're wrong for doing that in
your context.
He would say, well, you're abrother in Christ and I trust
(30:01):
you to do that in your context.
And so you know if ringing thebell seven times is meaningful
for you guys or whatever youknow, or wearing robes or not
wearing robes, or you know organor not organ, or you know any
of these things that are diverse.
Like you know, we've lost theability to say.
I shouldn't say we've lost.
We need to practice saying toone another you're my brother or
(30:24):
sister in Christ and I trustyou to do what's right in your
context.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Amen In the talk I heard you give, and I don't
remember who gave this quote.
Maybe it was you.
You can take it.
If you've coded it three orfour more times, then it's yours
, jim.
Anyway.
Liturgical performance overtime.
Liturgical performance overtime can become elevated above
their proper function, seen notas the right which enacts the
means, but rather as equal tothe means itself.
(30:47):
This leads to idolatry and toobscuring of the gospel.
Say more there.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
Yes, and if you elevate the rites and ceremonies
to be on par with the story, tosay something like the only way
to tell the story is throughthis set of rites and ceremonies
, then you've you have elevatedthem to the place of ideology
and whether it's repristinationor some type of historicity but
you hear people talk about this,like you know.
Do you follow the Western massor the Western?
(31:16):
You know the historic liturgy?
That's probably the way peoplesay it.
Do you the historic liturgy?
That's probably the way peoplesay it.
Do you follow the historicliturgy?
It's like, what do you mean bythat?
You know like in which timeperiod?
You know like there were allsorts of different practices and
nothing that we have in ourhymnal was original.
You know, I mean like to earlyChristian worship, very, very,
(31:37):
very little.
The earliest we can see is thiskind of, you know, fourfold
pattern of gathering and readingthe word and celebrating the
Lord's Supper and then sending.
Like you know, there was, youknow, christian worship before
the Sanctus.
There was Christian worshipbefore the Lord's Prayer was
prayed in the Divine Service.
There was Christian worshipbefore the Kyrie.
You know all of these things.
So, like when you elevate therites and ceremonies and the
(31:59):
idea of a historic liturgy beingthe only way to tell the story.
I think it's pretty close toidolatry and it's just not good
liturgical studies, I mean likeit's not authentic, it's not
real.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
So you and I, having grown up in Lutheran liturgical
worship, I'm sometimes shockedat how certain parts of our
liturgy weren't always there andnot too distant, were they not
in our worship service.
For instance, confessionabsolution as we know it today
only has a few centuries.
I mean it's not even connectedto the penance and satisfaction
(32:31):
for sins and connected to theLord's Supper and preparation
for the Lord's Supper, andprivate confession absolution,
the corporate confessionabsolution, is a very modern
evolution in our liturgy and soyou can talk to that, jim, or
any other kind of changes thathave taken place in the historic
liturgy.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
Sure, yeah, I won't.
Even you know.
Again, this is the second SteveZank reference in one podcast,
but you know he's doing somework on the placement of
confession absolution and insome historic Lutheran rites
confession absolution was placedafter the sermon instead of at
the beginning of the service.
You know which tradition areyou invoking, you know when you.
(33:09):
You know based on where youwant to place the confession
absolution, right, okay, so likeI don't think it helps us to
argue about those things in away that brings division in the
body, I think that we can learnfrom one another.
You know, why don't you usewhatever in this service?
Why don't you wear robes in theservice?
(33:30):
Why do you wear robes in theservice?
Why do you light candles?
Why don't you light?
You know, on and on and on.
We can learn from one anotherand we might, you know, see
strengths and weaknesses in ourown practice by learning from,
you know, other practices.
Does that mean we should justtry to change our practices?
Not necessarily, like youtalked about before, like
(33:51):
there's, you know, practicesthat we should not change in
churches?
There's practices that you know, and I used to teach at
Concordia Seminary the idea ofbeing a ritual steward right.
So pastors are ritual stewards.
They steward the community'srituals.
They're not ritual tyrants.
And most you know not most, butmany of our pastors well, I
used to get really entertainedbecause the worship class was a
(34:12):
second year class at theseminary.
So these uh no-transcript.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
And so he comes a few weeks out of the year and he
had a very polite conversationwith me about why, in our more
modern confession and absolution, we didn't always allow people
to verbally confess their sins,because there was maybe a silent
.
You know, the preacher sets upthe malady, the law, it accuses
us all and then, in the silenceof our hearts, we get to pray
and ask Jesus for forgiveness,which is a form of confession, I
(35:17):
would argue.
But he likes the publicproclamation of I agree, I am a
sinner, or poor, wretched,miserable sinner, etc.
And so I was.
Actually we were able to have aconversation oh, that's
something we could probably adda call and response, a
confession and a declaration ofagreement around our confessing
ourselves as sinners.
(35:38):
So it was very polite.
But he comes from very, verydifferent contexts where he led
worship in much different forms.
Still, the guts of the liturgywere there.
I think, Jim, you're a bridgebuilder, I pray you're a bridge
builder for many, because youwant to link and who can
disagree with this?
Our liturgical rites andceremonies, the liturgy that
(36:00):
tells the grand story, back todiscipleship practices.
So maybe, as we're coming downthe homestretch here, would you
people have heard me talk aboutit before, but would you give an
understanding of your basicsense of the order but connect
the order of worship with thediscipleship lens?
You've already started withinvocation and identity equaling
hospitality as the children ofGod.
(36:21):
Would you just walk throughfour or five other elements of
the liturgy and how they connectto daily discipleship?
Speaker 2 (36:26):
Yeah, that's great, and so I do this in an article
that I've written and Iintentionally follow the hymnal
pattern, let's say.
But it can be adapted to otherpatterns and it creates a
conversation point like what arewe or are we not doing, or how
do we locate these things?
So one really interesting oneis the idea of the Kyrie, the
prayer Lord have mercy, whichreally is a prayer of advocacy.
(36:48):
So it's interesting how thatmoment and then the
intercessions, the prayer of thechurch, are praying for the
world.
You know it's the first Timothyidea that we pray for the world
.
That's why the church gathersis to pray for the world.
The idea that we pray for theworld, that's why the church
gathers is to pray for the world.
So you know, a lot of us, whenwe think of the idea of Lord
have mercy, kyrie, eleison, lordhave mercy, we're thinking of
that penitentially.
You know, lord have mercy on me, a sinner, and we see that in
(37:11):
the New Testament.
But most times when thatrefrain is offered or prayed in
the New Testament it is foradvocacy.
Lord have mercy and heal me.
Lord have mercy and cast outthe demon.
Lord have mercy and feed me.
Lord have mercy.
You know all of these thingswhere there's direct advocacy,
god working for the sake ofhumanity.
So when we intercess or when wepray the Kyrie, we're actually
(37:34):
advocating for those who are inneed.
This is our moment to advocatefor the poor and the oppressed.
This is our moment to advocate.
And not only do we advocatewith our words and our prayers,
but we pray for the things thatwe are committed to doing.
So we pray for the poor and wesure as heck better feed them.
Right?
You know like we should be.
You know feeding the peoplethat we're praying for.
(37:55):
We should be providing for thepeople that we're praying for.
We're the body of Christ we are.
You know how God is working inthe world.
So you know, Kyrie,intercessions that's an
interesting one.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
Dude.
So I learn new things all thetime.
That's what's fascinating aboutthis, and I probably learned
this at some point, jim, but youknow I forgot, I guess.
But I love the Kyrie, but Ithink I've mostly thought about
it in a Western, me centered way, and I bet even liturgists who
are in Lord and I'm thinkingLord, have mercy upon me, no,
(38:28):
lord, have mercy upon us.
This is a collective hard cryand it's not just for the church
, this is for the mission ofJesus that every person would
recognize their desperate neednot just for grace but for mercy
, not getting what our sinsdeserve.
So the Kyrie is a moment ofmission.
That's a boof.
That's a mind blow Jim, I lovethat.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
Right Exactly, and when the you know, to Monday.
Then if we could practice onMonday praying Lord have mercy
at school.
Lord have mercy at home.
Lord have mercy in the grocerystore, lord have mercy as we're
driving past the red light withthe person standing and begging
Right.
It reframes how we look atthose things Like God is having
(39:04):
mercy, god's advocating and he'susing us to do so.
Speaker 1 (39:08):
Hey, do one or two more, dude.
That was.
Speaker 2 (39:10):
that was worth the price of admission right there,
so the idea of generosity is funand the offertory, you know.
So a lot of our churches Idon't know how many churches
still pass the plates afterCOVID.
That was kind of a funny youknow COVID consequence.
Okay, so our church does notnow, which is we save COVID
conversations for another time.
(39:37):
But the idea of generosity, youknow, usually the offering
moment happens after the sermonand it's kind of a weird
liturgical placement because notalways do we, you know, are we
bringing the elements to thetable at that point.
But that's the historicpractice is that the church
would gather the bread and winethat would be used for the
Lord's Supper in the offering.
The offertory that was theoffering is the bringing forward
of bread and wine and othergifts you know that would be
(39:59):
used for the sake of the poorand then that bread and wine
would be what was used in theEucharist to be the body and
blood of Jesus for the community.
So again, like the communitybrings the bread and wine, and
so the body of Christ isbringing the bread and wine that
will be the body and blood ofJesus for the community, so that
(40:19):
the community can go forth andbe the body of Christ in the
world.
I mean, it's just this reallycool like reciprocal effect here
that's happening.
So the idea of generosity isbringing forth the gifts that we
have for the kingdom so that we, as the body of Christ, might
be the body of Christ in theworld.
You know, generosity is notabout me giving whatever percent
(40:41):
, you know, because I'mcompelled to do so.
This is what Paul's talkingabout being a cheerful giver,
like God is at work in the worldand you know we get to be part
of that, like it's worth me,like I'd pay everything to be
part of what God is doing in theworld.
Because you know, it's just agift, it's all gifts and God has
generously given us everythingin Christ.
(41:02):
And then in Christ we go and welive for the sake of the world.
We empty ourselves of all ofour possessions, of our
materialism, of any of thesethings, because now does that
mean that we go and selleverything we have and give to
the poor?
Not necessarily, but we useeverything we have for the sake
of the world and that is thecalling.
So there's a, you know, there'sa generosity moment for you too
(41:24):
.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
I love that.
Hey, give us a closingunderstanding of the Aaronic
benediction the Lord bless youand keep you, et cetera, where
that fits in our liturgy.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
Yeah, yeah.
So this is, you know, theblessing and the presence of God
resting on us after receivingthe gifts of forgiveness, life
and salvation, and it's thatblessing, you know, like this is
the Sunday to Monday connection, at least for me, that, as I
have been blessed with thatpresence.
Peace, reconciliation, you knowall of these things coming
together.
Then I go and I am thatambassador of reconciliation and
(41:57):
blessing to the world.
In the South we have this, youknow, the idea of bless your
heart.
You know, and sometimes it'ssaid more sarcastically or
snarkily than it is genuinely,but what if we, as Christians,
were constantly blessing thosearound us?
Well, bless you, bless thisLord.
You know, let your presence,let your favor rest upon this.
(42:18):
And that is like you know thatthe God who dwelt with the
people of Israel and who dwellswith us through his son Jesus,
by the power of the Holy Spirit,working faith in us, is still
dwelling in this world, you know, is still being made known in
this world.
That's a that's a prettypowerful thing, it's beautiful.
Speaker 1 (42:35):
Oh, I love it.
This has been so much fun.
Jim, how does all of this thisis the podcast of the ULC and we
want I mean our heart's desire,the Spirit's desire, jesus'
desire is to get all of his kidsback.
You know, jesus came to seekand to save the lost, and so our
gatherings are catalysts forthe sake of God's mission.
So how does just a verysuccinct kind of closing summary
(42:56):
, jim?
How does liturgy connect toGod's grand mission to get all
of his kids back?
Speaker 2 (43:00):
That's exactly right.
I mean, like if liturgy is themeans by which the story is told
, right.
If Word and Sacrament, ministryis the means by which the story
is told, then we are all aboutthat work, and that work is not
just on Sunday at 11 o'clock.
That work is 24-7, 365.
So we are constantlyproclaiming the gospel, we are
(43:22):
constantly initiating and beingreminded of our initiation into
God's kingdom.
We are constantly bringingforgiveness, life and salvation
to the world.
This is what we're doing, thisis what it's about, and with
that mindset, christ is madeknown.
God has done everything for usin Christ.
That's the passiverighteousness, and God is using
us actively to make himselfknown to the world as active
righteousness.
So we live for the sake of theworld.
(43:43):
My favorite here's I should havejust given you this as the
summary.
My one of my favoriteliturgical theologians says that
liturgy is how the redeemedworld is done Like.
So liturgy is what the redeemedworld looks like, and so, as we
anticipate Christ's return andcoming in glory, like liturgy is
how the redeemed world is like,and so, as we anticipate
Christ's return and coming inglory, like liturgy is how the
redeeming world is done, andwe're making Christ known as.
(44:04):
We await His return in glory.
Speaker 1 (44:05):
How could it be any other way?
Jim Marriott, I'm so gratefulto call you a friend and partner
in the gospel, praying for yourwork there at Concordia
University, Texas, along youngminds, leaders that you get to
shape.
I would love to have been oneof your students and I frankly I
feel like today.
You took me to school, you tookall of us to school.
(44:26):
Professor Marriott, thank youfor your deep work and I really
believe, for those of us who arein the Lutheran Church Missouri
Synod, this is a longconversation.
Is it maybe sometimes achallenging conversation?
Yes, to be sure, because ritesand rituals really, really
matter.
They tell one consistent story.
So my ultimate prayer would bemore conversation for those who
are within the Lutheran ChurchMissouri Synod.
In our unique context and workfrom places of commonality, we
(44:50):
want the one true story to gettold and we want it to be done
well.
We want it to be performed well, not just on Sunday, though
that matters, but Monday throughSaturday as well, all for the
sake of Jesus bringing back.
There's lots of lost sheep, man.
There's lots of lost kids, lostcoins, if you will, and we need
a good shepherd and we needmore and more sheep to hear the
(45:13):
good shepherd's voice.
That's what this is all about.
Please like, subscribe, comment, share.
Wherever it is you take this in.
Speaker 2 (45:24):
And if people want to connect with you and your work,
jim, how can they do so?
Yeah, so I'm a decent follow onsocial media, so follow me on
Facebook.
You know whether we're doing.
You know doing life and you cansee how this.
You know liturgical, I pray.
You see how this liturgicallife gets lived out in ice cream
and you know other acts ofgenerosity.
And look me up on the websiteof Concordia University.
I'm also a pastor at FaithLutheran in Georgetown and
anytime you're in the Austinarea we'd love to host you and
(45:47):
get to know y'all.
Speaker 1 (45:47):
Man.
This is the Tim Ullman podcast.
It's a good day, it's abeautiful day, even in the midst
of Lent.
Lent is ramping up to thegreatest week of all time, from
Palm Sunday to Monday Thursday.
Jesus did a lot actuallybetween Palm Sunday and Monday
Thursday, but Monday Thursday toGood Friday, to our glorious
resurrection Sunday.
And then, guess what, everySunday is, jim, between that
(46:09):
Easter Sunday, it's Easter baby,it's Easter.
Christ is risen.
He is risen indeed, hallelujah,hallelujah.
Can I say hallelujah?
It's like I'm saying it on.
I'm not in liturgical traditionright now, but we'll be back
next week with another episodeof the Till Moment podcast.
I'm grateful for you, jim.
Thanks buddy, thanks brother.
Welcome to the Tim Allman Podcast.
It's a beautiful day to bealive.
Pray.
The joy of Jesus is with you.
Today.
We're in the season of Lent aswe're recording this and I get
the privilege of sitting downwith one of my favorite
historians.
Professor, pastor, liturgist aswell as worship leader.
This man is honestly one of thegreatest organists in the
Lutheran Church, missouri Synod.
(00:24):
We don't judge by greatness.
Greatness in the kingdom isabout weak things, but
nonetheless this man has beengifted by Jesus in beautiful
ways.
Today I get to hang out with myclassmate from back 2004,.
Reverend Dr, you weren't areverend nor a doctor at this
point, but in 2004, go Bulldogs.
I got to listen to Reverend DrJim Marriott play in chapel for
(00:46):
those years and I was like man.
The Lord's going to dosomething special in this man's
life and history is born thattrue by the Spirit's power.
He serves as an assistantprofessor of music and
department coordinator atConcordia University, texas.
He previously occupied theKreft Chair for Music Arts at
Concordia Seminary in St Louis,where he served as the Director
of Music Arts and Professor ofWorship Courses.
(01:07):
He held a holy undergraduateand graduate degrees in parish
music from Concordia, nebraska,concordia, wisconsin.
He earned his PhD then inliturgical studies from Garrett
Evangelical Theological Seminaryin Evanston, illinois, with an
emphasis in liturgicalenculturation.
Okay, we're going to hang outthere a little bit.
He was ordained into thepastoral ministry through
Concordia Seminary in St Louisand he remains an active pastor.
(01:32):
He's just about ready to gopreach a Lenten sermon later on
this afternoon.
He's a church musician,lecturer, composer and performer
across the US.
Jim and his awesome wife,christy, have been married for
19 years and are blessed withtwo kids.
I got to meet your kids.
They are awesome, joel andKirsten.
What a joy to be with you today, jim.
How are you doing, brother?
Speaker 2 (01:48):
I'm doing great, Tim.
It's always good to be with youand I appreciate you very much.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Yeah, I love reading that bio man.
The Lord has allowed you tolearn a lot of things, and to
whom much is given, much isrequired, and so of these
learning opportunities.
Well, let's dig into thisquestion, though.
What's the relationship?
Just go right in the deep end,jim.
What's the relationship betweenliturgy, discipleship?
Speaker 2 (02:14):
and mission.
Let's start there.
Yeah, it's a good question.
A lot of my research andemphasis has been on trying to
connect Sunday to Monday, right?
You know and this I think it'sa big problem for the church
that we practice church as ifit's one hour on Sunday and then
, you know, we kind of gothrough the rest of life, you
know, for the other hours in theweek, and so it's very tricky
to connect what we do on Sundayand have it have some meaning on
Monday.
(02:34):
So when I'm talking about theconnection of liturgy and
mission, I'm really trying totalk about how we form
Christians to live the Christianlife in the world.
And I do think that the divineservice or our worship practices
are formational, like I thinkthey do something and I think
they're doing something on us inorder to form us in particular
ways to be the body of Christ inthe world Monday through
(02:56):
Saturday.
So that's really what I'm up toin trying to help the church
make those connections.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Well, that seems to be a very Lutheran thing to do,
right, jim?
I mean, luther was remarkablyconcerned not just with though
it's very important the preachedword, the heard and believed
word, but how that word was thenshaping this is the origin of
the small catechism, right howthat preached word is shaping
discipleship in the home.
Say more about how the liturgygets lived out in home, because
(03:23):
I saw this with you.
You took us through apre-dinner prayer, some sort of
a collect, I think, and it wasjust spectacular.
Liturgy is in your home, jimMarriott, isn't that right?
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Yeah, that's true, and that particular resource
that we used that day was a bookcalled Every Moment Holy.
There's three volumes of themnow and they're lovely prayers,
lovely little liturgies fordifferent moments, the idea that
every moment would be holy andevery moment covered in prayer.
In those volumes there's even aliturgy or a prayer for
changing diapers.
So it's pretty fun to see howevery moment can be deemed holy
(03:57):
through the life of prayer, andreally even more than just that.
But you know, it's the ideathat in the divine service we
receive particular gifts and wehear the word of God preached,
we receive the sacraments and wedo so so that we might have
forgiveness of sins and thepromise of life and salvation.
And that's what we I mean we'redoing that on Sunday, but that
(04:17):
doesn't stop on Sunday, like welive that life Monday through
Saturday.
And so you know what I'minterested in in my home whether
I'm arguing with my teenagersor trying to be a faithful
husband or you know all of thesedifferent things is how do I
practice forgiveness, how do Ibring life, how do I advocate
for salvation in my family andmy community and throughout the
(04:38):
world?
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Yeah Well, shouldn't we be about training every
father and mother to be aworship leader of sorts, a
liturgist of sorts?
I don't think?
We often talk about it that way, and it sets up these kind of
weird dichotomies like, oh, Icould never do what Jim does,
you know.
It's like, nah, you could andshould.
We're just talking the thingsof God.
Say more about how every homeis a holy place, with those
(05:01):
parents who have been given theultimate responsibility of
discipleship of their kids,establishing spiritual rhythms
with their kids.
Say more about that, jim.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Exactly right.
Well, and you brought up thesmall catechism and that's a
great example or paradigm ofthis type of idea.
And in the home we are formingpeople to live the Christian
life and different people havedifferent home structures and
different home relationships.
So this is inclusive.
You know, it doesn't matterwhat your home situation looks
like, it is a chance to live theChristian life.
(05:37):
And even with the catechism, ifyou look at the purpose behind
the catechism was to create aset of discipleship behaviors.
Right, I mean Luther writes thecatechism because people are
acting immorally and they don'tknow the gospel at all.
Right, you know the gospel.
I mean Luther writes thecatechism because people are
acting immorally and they don'tknow the gospel at all.
Right, you know the gospel isnot producing the fruit of faith
.
And you know, in the lives ofthe people they're just not
acting out, you know, so hewrites the catechism, you know,
so that households can learn thefaith and then act it out.
(05:57):
And we can talk more about that, how it works theologically.
But what I'm really interestedin is, like discipleship
behavior, what it looks like tolive out the Christian life.
So a lot of us reduceChristianity to this kind of
head knowledge type thing thatif we have the right answers
then we say the right things,we're good with God and we can
(06:18):
kind of do whatever we want.
And that's actually, you know,that confuses the idea of
righteousness and the idea ofliving the sanctified life.
Our Lutheran conf confuses theidea of righteousness and the
idea of living the sanctifiedlife.
Our Lutheran confessions, theidea of new obedience, like the
good works that we do are forthe sake of our neighbors, so
that we can make Christ known inthe world.
That's really important.
That's what we want to do athome.
So, like, the good things thatwe do at home are the things
(06:39):
that extend from home to school,from home to work, from home,
you know, to other places.
So, yes, it's critical thatfamilies, would you know, know,
live, study and embody theChristian life at home, and I
think it's even not even morecritical, but it's equally
critical that at church onSunday, that we're really
focused on these behaviors sothat we can model for families,
(07:02):
when they, you know, live theirfamily life, what it is to live
out and be the people of God.
So that's the connection ofSunday to Mondays, the very
stuff that God has done for us,you know, forgiving us our sins,
bringing us the promise of lifeand salvation.
So these are the very thingsthat we're doing for the sake of
the world and you know, goduses us, by the power of the
Holy Spirit, to make witness ofthat in faith.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Well, I don't know how it could be any other way.
I mean, this is just the wayJesus lived.
He invited the disciples.
Think about this.
How weird would it have been ifJesus would have just said you
know what guys, we're going togather together one hour a week
and I'm going to give anincredible.
It's going to be an hour, notmuch longer, and I'm just going
to like I'm going to say somethings and we're going to do
some stuff, but then you're justgoing to kind of go.
(07:44):
No, they were with Jesus, likeall the time.
And so our discipleship isobviously Saturday and Sunday,
all the way through the upcomingSaturday into Sunday.
And where else would that startbut in the home?
And so I think you know this isa leadership podcast.
We have so much room to growand this is all grace, right,
(08:07):
this isn't shame, but invitingparents to come and learn and
practice not just the words butthe way of Jesus, gentle and
light yoke of Jesus, and howthat shapes the way we care for
our kids and help our kids growand mature and kind of own their
spiritual by the Spirit's power, own their spiritual journey so
they become those that have thecharacter of Christ that are
(08:28):
comfortable speaking the wordsof Christ.
If we miss on that and I wouldsay and I'm painting it a little
bit of a broad brush here Ithink in a Christian America we
thought for a generation or two,maybe longer, but for a
generation or two like we couldget away.
And maybe this is a point ofunity, I think, within our tribe
the Lutheran Church, missouriSynod, where we could get away
(08:50):
with just entertaining people,making people feel comfortable
in that hour, and generally theChristian ethos would be
maintained in our homes.
How far have we fallen fromthat being true in our culture?
Any response there, jim?
Speaker 2 (09:04):
That's right.
Well, I mean, you said a littlebit earlier how could it be any
other way?
And this is the tragedy, tim,like there's a lot of churches
that practice this other ways,right, and if you think about,
you know, not just you knowattractional churches that are
entertaining, but theattractional churches that are
posturing themselves where thechurch, the building, the
(09:26):
location, is the only place tolike participate in the
Christian life.
Yeah, you know.
So now you have families thatare set up that you know the
whole point is to go to churchinstead of the whole point is to
be the church, and I think thatthat disconnect is really
problematic for our families.
For any kind of relationalstructure that you know the
solution you know manyconfirmation programs right now.
For any kind of relationalstructure that you know the
solution you know manyconfirmation programs right now
(09:48):
or any kind of catechesisprogram, the idea is, well, we
got to take them to church,we're going to go to the
building, we've got to, you know, you know, go to the place
where they'll be taught.
Then we're learning in ourhomes.
If we're relying on an hour onSunday to be the place where we
learn the Christian life, we'relost.
There's no way we an hour onSunday to be the place where we
learn the Christian life we'relost.
There's no way.
We have too many other outsideinfluences that are working on
(10:10):
us for too many other hours,teaching us different behaviors.
I spend more time watchingcollege football than I do in
church on Sunday.
You know.
So, like just from a sheer timestandpoint.
You know, if I'm not embodyingthose behaviors and taking
seriously catechesis anddiscipleship Monday through
Saturday, you know we can't relyon the church building to be
the only place of formation.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
So Christian worship, you say, is discipleship.
Christian worship could beattractional, christian worship
could be building-based.
Christian worship for us in ourtribe could be the holy man
doing holy things, rather thanequipping holy people for love
and good deeds in all of theirvocational spaces.
Anything more to say to whatChristian worship could be, even
(10:50):
in our Lutheran context.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
Yeah, no, that's exactly right.
And I've spent a lot of timewriting about and thinking about
this attractional model ofministry and most people kind of
, you know, locate theattractional model of ministry
with the megachurch who's doingmodern worship.
That is, you know, you know,kind of stereotypically
entertaining people and I don'tthink that that's a very good
(11:13):
practice.
And I think that some of ourmore higher ritual, maybe
liturgical, like all of thesewords don't mean much, but like
these liturgical, you know, orconfessional churches, a lot of
them are doing entertainmentjust the same way and they don't
mean to be doing it, but it'sthe exact same structure that
you come and you get entertainedand then you go and you know
(11:33):
the formation, the equipping.
We need to be very, veryconscientious about how we're
going through that process tomake sure that we're forming
people for the Christian life.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Hey, good, good, let's get into what Bob Kolb and
Chuck Aaron have written Two ofour beloved professors at
Concordia Seminary over theyears.
They say there are two axes todiscipleship.
Would you talk about that, Jim?
Speaker 2 (11:54):
Yeah.
So there's a lot of people thatuse kind of this framework, the
two kinds of righteousnessright, you know.
So, like you've got a passiverighteousness and active
righteousness, and this hassignificant liturgical
ramifications, I think, becauseyou start talking about, like,
performing the faith, or youknow these liturgical behaviors,
or you know things like that,that we're talking about
Christian formation and it cansound like works righteousness
(12:16):
that we have to earn favor withGod, and that's not it at all.
All of the things that happenin the divine service are God
first.
You know, god is the one thatis advocating for us.
God is welcoming us into hiskingdom.
God is acting with generositytowards us, god is inspiring us
praise and thanksgiving.
God is forgiving sins, god isbringing life, god is bringing
(12:38):
salvation.
All of these things.
We contribute nothing.
So that's the passiverighteousness axis and that
connects to active righteousness, which is mediated between me
and my neighbor.
So then you know, if God has,in Christ, welcomed me into his
kingdom, hospitality, then I intheable of the lost son.
That was the lectionary reading,and Jesus tells that parable to
(13:00):
the Pharisees and the scribeswho are upset that Jesus is
eating with tax collectors andsinners.
And so I had to, you know, dosome soul searching and I talked
about this in the sermon that,like my family, loves to
(13:22):
practice hospitality.
We love to host dinner parties.
We host ice cream parties,students at Concordia, texas,
where I teach members from ourchurch.
We love it.
It's great and it has been along time since we have welcomed
in the equivalent of the taxcollector and the center to our
table.
We host a lot of scribes and wehost a lot of Pharisees, but we
do not host a lot of taxcollectors and sinners.
(13:43):
So Jesus is telling thisparable, you know, against me,
like if I am the least of theseand Jesus has welcomed me into
his kingdom, you know, then it'smy, it's my duty in Christ to
go forward and to seek the leastof these.
And so this is the idea ofhospitality, you know, making
sure you see everybody and makea place for everybody.
(14:04):
There's one example, you knowit's this type of thing.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
I love that, jim, so much.
We're walking through theGospel of Mark in Lent and we
heard the story of why don'tyour disciples wash hands?
This is Mark 9, I believe youknow this is according to the
customs, the traditions of theelders, and the historical
background to that was there wasJewish high priest, you know,
(14:28):
temple priest ceremonialcleansing.
That took place.
But over time I find this funnyannotation as a worship leader
and yourself too they developeda ritual for cops and kettles
and even washing ceremonialbaptizo is the word baptizo
dining couches.
I was like, when was the lasttime you took part in ceremonial
dining couch washing?
So nonetheless, over time thatritual had gotten in the way of
(14:52):
what the ritual was for.
It's always for a relationship,first with God and for others.
So you see, in the divineliturgy, I love that we remember
our identity as children of God.
Oh, and as we move out into theworld, we see others as
children of God who may haveforgotten that their primary
identity.
I could walk through the entirereligion.
We're confessing people, we'reforgiving people, all because
(15:13):
we've received it, we give itaway.
Anything more to say there?
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Jim, right, and what I find when I look at other
churches and I talk to peopleabout this is people are stuck
in one or two of the like axes.
You know, either it's allpassive and we're not doing
anything, and so, like there'sno relationship between liturgy
and mission, because liturgy isthe only thing and so all it is
(15:37):
is going to church.
And then there's some that getlost in the social gospel aspect
of it, that all it is is livingfor the sake of neighbor and
they forget, you know, what Godhas done for us in Christ.
It's the connection of the twoof them that I think is really
important.
And this is the trajectory ofthe Augsburg Confession too,
right, you know, like Article 4,justification by grace through
faith.
Article 5, the office of theministry, the idea of word and
(15:59):
sacrament ministry.
Article 6, for new obedience,right.
So there's a connection betweenthis passive righteousness and
active righteousness, and theconnector is the church, right,
you know, is the office of theministry.
So that's pretty cool, that youknow God works this for us in
Christ and that we go and then,in Christ's name, work this for
(16:21):
the sake of the world, becausethe world needs to know Christ
and to know the redemption thathe has won for us.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
You talk about how you pray, that we broaden and
sharpen our understanding of theliturgy.
And then I had a question howis this connected to a form of
performance?
And let me just say somethingto kind of set that up a bit.
I like how the liturgyrestories us, Jim.
It takes us up out of our smallstories, our anxiety-filled or
(16:48):
maybe pride-filled stories, upinto God's grand love story.
Not just for me but for theentire cosmos, shown in the
person and work of Jesus, ittells a story of God's
redemptive love.
So the rituals that we walkthrough are all about
relationship, and so that's in asense for me and you can give
me your perspective that's howit broadens the awe and wonder
(17:09):
of the grand story I'm a part of.
And then the practices.
For me, as I'm interpreting,broadening and sharpening, the
practices become laser focused.
Here's this practice.
But it's not to like worshipthe practice, it's to broaden
our scope out to the one whogave us a glimpse and I'm
thinking now even Paul's words.
We see now through a mirror,dimly.
Then we shall see face to faceright, A glimpse, though
(17:29):
imperfect, of God's redemptivelove in that grand story.
Anything more to say there, Jim?
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Yeah, right, so you know whether it's his story.
I love that.
That's a great, you know, model, great paradigm, the idea of
identity formation, all of thesethings like being made new in
Christ, who and what we are,that's exactly right.
And you know the connection ofthat, being, you know, initiated
into that story.
This is what happens in baptismthat God writes his story on us
(17:56):
.
God, you know, the story of oursin is no longer our story,
it's now the story of God'ssalvation, and then we become
reconciling agents in the world,like our job is to make that
known.
So I frame this for my studentsat the university in terms of
ethics.
It's pretty interesting withthis, you know, two kinds of
righteousness to talk aboutethics right, because for God
(18:18):
there is grace and mercy andforgiveness for the sinner and
in the world there'saccountability.
Right, because for God there isgrace and mercy and forgiveness
for the sinner and in the worldthere's accountability.
Right, and the Christian is tolive as the body of Christ in
the world, while others, youknow, on this kind of horizontal
, you know, active righteousnesssphere, you know, are holding
people accountable.
We are extending forgiveness,you know, and radical
(18:41):
forgiveness, because we're theones that have received that
forgiveness in Christ and so weforgive.
It's interesting to play thatout for my students.
You know the murderer.
You know, before God, themurderer who confesses sin,
right, sin is forgiven.
Sin is faithful Faith in Christ.
The murderer, in the eyes ofthe world, is held accountable.
(19:02):
There's accountability.
The Christian's posture to themurderer is the posture of
Christ, not the posture of theworld.
Right, you know, and the worldcan hold people accountable and
the Christian forgives.
I mean, that is like it's mindblowing in terms of formation.
Right, like this is how we'resupposed to live, you know, in
Christ in the world, and I thinkit's really important and for
all the leaders out there toreally frame, you know, our
(19:25):
ethics and our worldview, basedon this Christian identity, this
Christian story.
What does it mean?
Like, who is God and what isGod doing?
God is constantly delivering.
God is constantly forgiving,God is constantly redeeming
people that don't deserve it,that scorn him, and we're called
to do the same.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
That's so good to counter.
I hear a little two kingdomtheology kind of coming through
without using that language.
But we release the person, thesinner, to the world and to good
government.
Praise be to God that sets andkeeps good rules according to
God's good law.
But then my perspective towardthat person that voted that way
or thinks that thing or has thatworldview, is love, not hate.
(20:05):
That's right, and there's somany examples of this.
I mean the early church gave usthe pinnacle example to honor
the emperor who's gonna becoming after you and only say
Jesus is Lord, you have no otherLord but Jesus and you cannot
say, well, it would beinappropriate, it'd be sin, and
they knew where they were going,so they would handle the sword
as it came.
(20:25):
They couldn't, because the HolySpirit lived in them, have
another Lord when Jesus was theonly Lord.
I mean that is why the earlychurch spread so much, because
there were these practices whichI love.
That Jesus is Lord is like thefirst creed, documented creed,
isn't that right?
(20:46):
That's right.
Very short creed but verypowerful in its orientation to
bring unity around a commonconfession both for the church
and for the church in the world.
You have three tiers.
I think this is really helpfulto piggyback on this Three tiers
of practices First is the story, second is word and sacrament,
and three are rites or ritualsand ceremonies.
And why is it helpful?
If you get these tiers out ofwhack which I would say
sometimes we get them mislabeledor the hierarchy gets inverted,
(21:09):
you're going to miss in someway shape or form.
So talk about the story,sacrament and ceremonies there,
jim.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, a lot of what's going on there is,
you know, when we use the termliturgy, we have to be pretty
clear what we mean, and there'sa lot of authors that have done
a lot of work on this thatliturgy in the broad sense is a
set of rituals and practicesthat forms you.
Right, this is the idea ofstory that restories you, and we
got all sorts of liturgies outin the world Again.
(21:37):
There's a college footballliturgy.
There's a liturgy of Amazon andonline shopping.
There's a liturgy of all sorts.
You know, like you could findall of the social media has, you
know, an infinite number ofliturgies to it that are forming
you in particular ways.
Doomscrolling is its own liturgy, right, you know like all of
these things are working.
So that's a big, broad view ofliturgy.
(21:58):
The narrow kind of definitionof liturgy, you know, is what
many of us might think of as theorder of service, whether you
find that in the hymnal or inthe bulletin or on the screens
or whatever, like whatever yourchurch is following in terms of
order of service.
So I try to help peoplenavigate both the broad and the
narrow sense of liturgy withthis type of tiered relationship
(22:21):
so that with the stories, thetop tier, and the story is
narrated through word andsacrament ministry.
Right, this is how the story istold.
The story is told through theproclamation of the word, the
story is told through theadministration of the sacraments
.
That's what we're doing.
And then that you know, word andsacrament ministry is performed
through rites and ceremonies,and this then gets back to the
(22:43):
idea of performance.
Like you know, we areperforming this.
It is the performance of ourfaith and we're performing them
through these various rituals,through these rites and
ceremonies.
So the rites and ceremoniesthemselves are not the liturgy
in the broad sense, they are theway that the story is told,
they're the method, the language, some of these behaviors.
And so that, when it comes toliturgical unity not liturgical
(23:07):
uniformity, but liturgical unityand the unity of the confession
of faith that is found in theidea of story that we tell the
same story together.
And then when we do that,lutherans, we do that through
word and sacrament ministry.
We're doing taking that veryseriously.
And so that's our liturgicalunity is telling that same story
through the ways that God haspromised to deliver those
(23:28):
promises.
And then the rites andceremonies yeah, you're good.
Yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
No keep going, keep going.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
The rites and ceremonies then are the language
, you know, kind of theinflection, the way the story is
told, so that might vary fromplace to place and context to
context you might use.
You know different rituals,different ceremonies, different
songs, different structures, butjust tell them the same story.
And that's where we need toreally find liturgical unity,
especially in our tribe.
(23:53):
You know, and this comes up alot, you know, when in our
confessions we talk about, youknow, not wanting to abandon the
mass and we uphold the mass.
Yep, so upholding the mass isthis idea of holding liturgical
unity where we're telling thesame story through word and
sacrament ministry, but we don'thave to have uniformity of
rights.
You know our confessions saythat.
(24:13):
So this is why we can haveliturgical unity without
liturgical uniformity, and thatbecomes very important for us.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Well, jim, I'm just making this, the light bulbs are
going off, so excuse me, butisn't that what happened in the
diverse telling of the Jesusstory in the four gospels?
Like I see diverse, diversestories that are chosen.
I mean, it's the feeding.
The 5,000 is like the onlystory that's told in all four of
the gospels.
(24:42):
Could.
Could Matthew been looking atJohn and being like, hey man,
you know, you gotta, you gottamake sure you get this, but
there's so many diverse storiesand then John's the only one
that gets the upper roomdiscourse, for goodness sake, I
mean, you know, of the washingof the feet and all the way to
the high priestly prayer andprayer for unity.
It the way to the high priestlyprayer and prayer for unity.
It's all these diverse anglesand that's what actually gives
(25:03):
more validity to the story isthe same story is told with a
number of different kind of substories, all pointing to the
ultimate story of life, perfectlife, death, burial and
resurrection and eventualascension of Jesus.
Connect the gospel stories toour liturgies.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
So that's a great insight, tim, and to see that as
enriching and I think that thatis really, you know, that would
be a gift that the church couldreceive is to see some of these
diverse perspectives anddiverse practices as enriching
rather than threatening.
Right, so that if we have adifferent view on something,
(25:39):
different lens, different way ofdoing something, well, what can
we learn from that and how canthat enrich what we are doing?
And that's a lot of what I'veseen over the course of my
career, you know, with differentchurches, with different
worship practices, let's say,you know, I've come a long way,
learning and growing from thingsthat maybe I didn't understand
or didn't like at one point, tohaving a very, you know, a
(26:01):
little bit more nuanced, youknow, way of saying, well, this
is helpful or this isn't helpful.
And I think we have to be ableto make a critique, and a
healthy critique, on things thatare not helpful, on things that
don't contribute to telling theright story through word and
sacrament ministry, right?
So?
If yes, then that's where thesetears come in Word and Sacrament
ministry, right.
So if and that's where thesetears come in If the rites and
(26:22):
ceremonies that we're usingaren't telling that story and
aren't, you know, working in theframework of Word and Sacrament
ministry, then we have aproblem.
That's not good.
But, as you know, if you canfit in that framework and use
resources that do that, thenit's easier to see these
different resources as enrichingrather than threatening or
divisive.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
I would love to see now we're speaking a little bit
more into the LCMS, so forgiveme those that are outside, but
this is pulling the curtain backa little bit I'd love to see a
diverse group of worship leaders, pastors and commission
ministers from across the Synodget together to find unity on an
ordo or a general order ofworship and not get too
(27:01):
prescriptive but descriptiveenough of the things that we
would like to see in ourservices, from invocation to
ascending and blessing and allthe things that kind of go in
between.
I've walked through the liturgymany times in my podcast so I'm
going to hesitate from doingthat but basically a service of
the word and a service of thetable and some other things that
kind of go around In the earlychurch.
A dear former colleague, drKent Burrison.
(27:22):
He was highlighting in theearly form those were the two
orders of worship service of theword and the service of the
table and then for us to saythere's some diverse worship
practices.
I think one of the argumentsthat just kind of gets
frustrating, I guess, is to saythat my context, and not just my
community's context, but mychurch context, is the exact
(27:44):
same as a Midwestern rule or asuburban context.
Here's what I've realized,having been in many different
churches, grown up as a pastor'skid.
Every church has its own ritesand ceremonies.
And for me to come in and sayI'm coming from another context,
here's that context rites andceremonies.
I really, really love this.
We should do this.
For me to come insert thoserites and ceremonies into a
(28:06):
place that already has their ownis very unwise, right?
I'll just give you threeexamples.
We ring the bell to start everyservice seven times.
It's the sign of Sabbath.
Rest, right?
Not every church has to have abell.
We have a bell.
The bell's been here before me.
It will be here after me.
We love the bell.
Like Christ Greenfield.
We hold hands at the end of theservice of the table.
If you don't like holding hands, well sorry.
(28:28):
We like to hold hands becauseit shows our unity to Christ,
since forgiven our unity andmission as forgiven people out
into the world, and then whenthe service ends, we close with
God is good all the time, andit's not because it's cute, it's
because it's true.
And good seasons and badseasons this is what we do.
For me to like I've come in,those predate me.
I bet those rites andceremonies will be here long
after I'm here.
(28:48):
This is the Christ Greenfieldway, and I could give you some
other smaller rites andceremonies.
But every church has uniquerhythms, right, unique
ceremonies, and I just thinkwe're very short-sighted when we
don't recognize the uniquecontext that this is all
liturgical worship, for goodnesssake.
You know, we agree on the orderof worship.
It's maybe going to look alittle nuanced in our context
(29:08):
but, my goodness, there has beenadaptation down through the
years in terms of rites andceremonies.
Over 2,000 years, very diversepractices, but I would say
they're mostly centered aroundthe word, centered around the
table.
Anything more to add there, jim?
Speaker 2 (29:21):
No, that's right, Exactly right.
Something I'm trying to helppeople realize is we don't have
to agree on the rites andceremonies right.
We don't even have to agreethat a particular rite or
ceremony is helpful.
And one of my colleagues, steveZink, has a beautiful way of
modeling this.
He'll say I trust you to dowhat's right in your context,
and there's some things thatI've described to Steve that we
(29:41):
do in our context.
And you know he'll say I trustyou that that works in your
context.
Now, I know him, he's my brotherin Christ and we have good
conversations, and so I knowpart of what he means by that is
, I probably wouldn't do that inmy context, but he doesn't say
that.
And he doesn't say, well,you're wrong for doing that in
your context.
He would say, well, you're abrother in Christ and I trust
(30:01):
you to do that in your context.
And so you know if ringing thebell seven times is meaningful
for you guys or whatever youknow, or wearing robes or not
wearing robes, or you know organor not organ, or you know any
of these things that are diverse.
Like you know, we've lost theability to say.
I shouldn't say we've lost.
We need to practice saying toone another you're my brother or
(30:24):
sister in Christ and I trustyou to do what's right in your
context.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Amen In the talk I heard you give, and I don't
remember who gave this quote.
Maybe it was you.
You can take it.
If you've coded it three orfour more times, then it's yours
, jim.
Anyway.
Liturgical performance overtime.
Liturgical performance overtime can become elevated above
their proper function, seen notas the right which enacts the
means, but rather as equal tothe means itself.
(30:47):
This leads to idolatry and toobscuring of the gospel.
Say more there.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
Yes, and if you elevate the rites and ceremonies
to be on par with the story, tosay something like the only way
to tell the story is throughthis set of rites and ceremonies
, then you've you have elevatedthem to the place of ideology
and whether it's repristinationor some type of historicity but
you hear people talk about this,like you know.
Do you follow the Western massor the Western?
(31:16):
You know the historic liturgy?
That's probably the way peoplesay it.
Do you the historic liturgy?
That's probably the way peoplesay it.
Do you follow the historicliturgy?
It's like, what do you mean bythat?
You know like in which timeperiod?
You know like there were allsorts of different practices and
nothing that we have in ourhymnal was original.
You know, I mean like to earlyChristian worship, very, very,
(31:37):
very little.
The earliest we can see is thiskind of, you know, fourfold
pattern of gathering and readingthe word and celebrating the
Lord's Supper and then sending.
Like you know, there was, youknow, christian worship before
the Sanctus.
There was Christian worshipbefore the Lord's Prayer was
prayed in the Divine Service.
There was Christian worshipbefore the Kyrie.
You know all of these things.
So, like when you elevate therites and ceremonies and the
(31:59):
idea of a historic liturgy beingthe only way to tell the story.
I think it's pretty close toidolatry and it's just not good
liturgical studies, I mean likeit's not authentic, it's not
real.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
So you and I, having grown up in Lutheran liturgical
worship, I'm sometimes shockedat how certain parts of our
liturgy weren't always there andnot too distant, were they not
in our worship service.
For instance, confessionabsolution as we know it today
only has a few centuries.
I mean it's not even connectedto the penance and satisfaction
(32:31):
for sins and connected to theLord's Supper and preparation
for the Lord's Supper, andprivate confession absolution,
the corporate confessionabsolution, is a very modern
evolution in our liturgy and soyou can talk to that, jim, or
any other kind of changes thathave taken place in the historic
liturgy.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
Sure, yeah, I won't.
Even you know.
Again, this is the second SteveZank reference in one podcast,
but you know he's doing somework on the placement of
confession absolution and insome historic Lutheran rites
confession absolution was placedafter the sermon instead of at
the beginning of the service.
You know which tradition areyou invoking, you know when you.
(33:09):
You know based on where youwant to place the confession
absolution, right, okay, so likeI don't think it helps us to
argue about those things in away that brings division in the
body, I think that we can learnfrom one another.
You know, why don't you usewhatever in this service?
Why don't you wear robes in theservice?
(33:30):
Why do you wear robes in theservice?
Why do you light candles?
Why don't you light?
You know, on and on and on.
We can learn from one anotherand we might, you know, see
strengths and weaknesses in ourown practice by learning from,
you know, other practices.
Does that mean we should justtry to change our practices?
Not necessarily, like youtalked about before, like
(33:51):
there's, you know, practicesthat we should not change in
churches?
There's practices that you know, and I used to teach at
Concordia Seminary the idea ofbeing a ritual steward right.
So pastors are ritual stewards.
They steward the community'srituals.
They're not ritual tyrants.
And most you know not most, butmany of our pastors well, I
used to get really entertainedbecause the worship class was a
(34:12):
second year class at theseminary.
So these uh no-transcript.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
And so he comes a few weeks out of the year and he
had a very polite conversationwith me about why, in our more
modern confession and absolution, we didn't always allow people
to verbally confess their sins,because there was maybe a silent
.
You know, the preacher sets upthe malady, the law, it accuses
us all and then, in the silenceof our hearts, we get to pray
and ask Jesus for forgiveness,which is a form of confession, I
(35:17):
would argue.
But he likes the publicproclamation of I agree, I am a
sinner, or poor, wretched,miserable sinner, etc.
And so I was.
Actually we were able to have aconversation oh, that's
something we could probably adda call and response, a
confession and a declaration ofagreement around our confessing
ourselves as sinners.
(35:38):
So it was very polite.
But he comes from very, verydifferent contexts where he led
worship in much different forms.
Still, the guts of the liturgywere there.
I think, Jim, you're a bridgebuilder, I pray you're a bridge
builder for many, because youwant to link and who can
disagree with this?
Our liturgical rites andceremonies, the liturgy that
(36:00):
tells the grand story, back todiscipleship practices.
So maybe, as we're coming downthe homestretch here, would you
people have heard me talk aboutit before, but would you give an
understanding of your basicsense of the order but connect
the order of worship with thediscipleship lens?
You've already started withinvocation and identity equaling
hospitality as the children ofGod.
(36:21):
Would you just walk throughfour or five other elements of
the liturgy and how they connectto daily discipleship?
Speaker 2 (36:26):
Yeah, that's great, and so I do this in an article
that I've written and Iintentionally follow the hymnal
pattern, let's say.
But it can be adapted to otherpatterns and it creates a
conversation point like what arewe or are we not doing, or how
do we locate these things?
So one really interesting oneis the idea of the Kyrie, the
prayer Lord have mercy, whichreally is a prayer of advocacy.
(36:48):
So it's interesting how thatmoment and then the
intercessions, the prayer of thechurch, are praying for the
world.
You know it's the first Timothyidea that we pray for the world
.
That's why the church gathersis to pray for the world.
The idea that we pray for theworld, that's why the church
gathers is to pray for the world.
So you know, a lot of us, whenwe think of the idea of Lord
have mercy, kyrie, eleison, lordhave mercy, we're thinking of
that penitentially.
You know, lord have mercy on me, a sinner, and we see that in
(37:11):
the New Testament.
But most times when thatrefrain is offered or prayed in
the New Testament it is foradvocacy.
Lord have mercy and heal me.
Lord have mercy and cast outthe demon.
Lord have mercy and feed me.
Lord have mercy.
You know all of these thingswhere there's direct advocacy,
god working for the sake ofhumanity.
So when we intercess or when wepray the Kyrie, we're actually
(37:34):
advocating for those who are inneed.
This is our moment to advocatefor the poor and the oppressed.
This is our moment to advocate.
And not only do we advocatewith our words and our prayers,
but we pray for the things thatwe are committed to doing.
So we pray for the poor and wesure as heck better feed them.
Right?
You know like we should be.
You know feeding the peoplethat we're praying for.
(37:55):
We should be providing for thepeople that we're praying for.
We're the body of Christ we are.
You know how God is working inthe world.
So you know, Kyrie,intercessions that's an
interesting one.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
Dude.
So I learn new things all thetime.
That's what's fascinating aboutthis, and I probably learned
this at some point, jim, but youknow I forgot, I guess.
But I love the Kyrie, but Ithink I've mostly thought about
it in a Western, me centered way, and I bet even liturgists who
are in Lord and I'm thinkingLord, have mercy upon me, no,
(38:28):
lord, have mercy upon us.
This is a collective hard cryand it's not just for the church
, this is for the mission ofJesus that every person would
recognize their desperate neednot just for grace but for mercy
, not getting what our sinsdeserve.
So the Kyrie is a moment ofmission.
That's a boof.
That's a mind blow Jim, I lovethat.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
Right Exactly, and when the you know, to Monday.
Then if we could practice onMonday praying Lord have mercy
at school.
Lord have mercy at home.
Lord have mercy in the grocerystore, lord have mercy as we're
driving past the red light withthe person standing and begging
Right.
It reframes how we look atthose things Like God is having
(39:04):
mercy, god's advocating and he'susing us to do so.
Speaker 1 (39:08):
Hey, do one or two more, dude.
That was.
Speaker 2 (39:10):
that was worth the price of admission right there,
so the idea of generosity is funand the offertory, you know.
So a lot of our churches Idon't know how many churches
still pass the plates afterCOVID.
That was kind of a funny youknow COVID consequence.
Okay, so our church does notnow, which is we save COVID
conversations for another time.
(39:37):
But the idea of generosity, youknow, usually the offering
moment happens after the sermonand it's kind of a weird
liturgical placement because notalways do we, you know, are we
bringing the elements to thetable at that point.
But that's the historicpractice is that the church
would gather the bread and winethat would be used for the
Lord's Supper in the offering.
The offertory that was theoffering is the bringing forward
of bread and wine and othergifts you know that would be
(39:59):
used for the sake of the poorand then that bread and wine
would be what was used in theEucharist to be the body and
blood of Jesus for the community.
So again, like the communitybrings the bread and wine, and
so the body of Christ isbringing the bread and wine that
will be the body and blood ofJesus for the community, so that
(40:19):
the community can go forth andbe the body of Christ in the
world.
I mean, it's just this reallycool like reciprocal effect here
that's happening.
So the idea of generosity isbringing forth the gifts that we
have for the kingdom so that we, as the body of Christ, might
be the body of Christ in theworld.
You know, generosity is notabout me giving whatever percent
(40:41):
, you know, because I'mcompelled to do so.
This is what Paul's talkingabout being a cheerful giver,
like God is at work in the worldand you know we get to be part
of that, like it's worth me,like I'd pay everything to be
part of what God is doing in theworld.
Because you know, it's just agift, it's all gifts and God has
generously given us everythingin Christ.
(41:02):
And then in Christ we go and welive for the sake of the world.
We empty ourselves of all ofour possessions, of our
materialism, of any of thesethings, because now does that
mean that we go and selleverything we have and give to
the poor?
Not necessarily, but we useeverything we have for the sake
of the world and that is thecalling.
So there's a, you know, there'sa generosity moment for you too
(41:24):
.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
I love that.
Hey, give us a closingunderstanding of the Aaronic
benediction the Lord bless youand keep you, et cetera, where
that fits in our liturgy.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
Yeah, yeah.
So this is, you know, theblessing and the presence of God
resting on us after receivingthe gifts of forgiveness, life
and salvation, and it's thatblessing, you know, like this is
the Sunday to Monday connection, at least for me, that, as I
have been blessed with thatpresence.
Peace, reconciliation, you knowall of these things coming
together.
Then I go and I am thatambassador of reconciliation and
(41:57):
blessing to the world.
In the South we have this, youknow, the idea of bless your
heart.
You know, and sometimes it'ssaid more sarcastically or
snarkily than it is genuinely,but what if we, as Christians,
were constantly blessing thosearound us?
Well, bless you, bless thisLord.
You know, let your presence,let your favor rest upon this.
(42:18):
And that is like you know thatthe God who dwelt with the
people of Israel and who dwellswith us through his son Jesus,
by the power of the Holy Spirit,working faith in us, is still
dwelling in this world, you know, is still being made known in
this world.
That's a that's a prettypowerful thing, it's beautiful.
Speaker 1 (42:35):
Oh, I love it.
This has been so much fun.
Jim, how does all of this thisis the podcast of the ULC and we
want I mean our heart's desire,the Spirit's desire, jesus'
desire is to get all of his kidsback.
You know, jesus came to seekand to save the lost, and so our
gatherings are catalysts forthe sake of God's mission.
So how does just a verysuccinct kind of closing summary
(42:56):
, jim?
How does liturgy connect toGod's grand mission to get all
of his kids back?
Speaker 2 (43:00):
That's exactly right.
I mean, like if liturgy is themeans by which the story is told
, right.
If Word and Sacrament, ministryis the means by which the story
is told, then we are all aboutthat work, and that work is not
just on Sunday at 11 o'clock.
That work is 24-7, 365.
So we are constantlyproclaiming the gospel, we are
(43:22):
constantly initiating and beingreminded of our initiation into
God's kingdom.
We are constantly bringingforgiveness, life and salvation
to the world.
This is what we're doing, thisis what it's about, and with
that mindset, christ is madeknown.
God has done everything for usin Christ.
That's the passiverighteousness, and God is using
us actively to make himselfknown to the world as active
righteousness.
So we live for the sake of theworld.
(43:43):
My favorite here's I should havejust given you this as the
summary.
My one of my favoriteliturgical theologians says that
liturgy is how the redeemedworld is done Like.
So liturgy is what the redeemedworld looks like, and so, as we
anticipate Christ's return andcoming in glory, like liturgy is
how the redeemed world is like,and so, as we anticipate
Christ's return and coming inglory, like liturgy is how the
redeeming world is done, andwe're making Christ known as.
(44:04):
We await His return in glory.
Speaker 1 (44:05):
How could it be any other way?
Jim Marriott, I'm so gratefulto call you a friend and partner
in the gospel, praying for yourwork there at Concordia
University, Texas, along youngminds, leaders that you get to
shape.
I would love to have been oneof your students and I frankly I
feel like today.
You took me to school, you tookall of us to school.
(44:26):
Professor Marriott, thank youfor your deep work and I really
believe, for those of us who arein the Lutheran Church Missouri
Synod, this is a longconversation.
Is it maybe sometimes achallenging conversation?
Yes, to be sure, because ritesand rituals really, really
matter.
They tell one consistent story.
So my ultimate prayer would bemore conversation for those who
are within the Lutheran ChurchMissouri Synod.
In our unique context and workfrom places of commonality, we
(44:50):
want the one true story to gettold and we want it to be done
well.
We want it to be performed well, not just on Sunday, though
that matters, but Monday throughSaturday as well, all for the
sake of Jesus bringing back.
There's lots of lost sheep, man.
There's lots of lost kids, lostcoins, if you will, and we need
a good shepherd and we needmore and more sheep to hear the
(45:13):
good shepherd's voice.
That's what this is all about.
Please like, subscribe, comment, share.
Wherever it is you take this in.
Speaker 2 (45:24):
And if people want to connect with you and your work,
jim, how can they do so?
Yeah, so I'm a decent follow onsocial media, so follow me on
Facebook.
You know whether we're doing.
You know doing life and you cansee how this.
You know liturgical, I pray.
You see how this liturgicallife gets lived out in ice cream
and you know other acts ofgenerosity.
And look me up on the websiteof Concordia University.
I'm also a pastor at FaithLutheran in Georgetown and
anytime you're in the Austinarea we'd love to host you and
(45:47):
get to know y'all.
Speaker 1 (45:47):
Man.
This is the Tim Ullman podcast.
It's a good day, it's abeautiful day, even in the midst
of Lent.
Lent is ramping up to thegreatest week of all time, from
Palm Sunday to Monday Thursday.
Jesus did a lot actuallybetween Palm Sunday and Monday
Thursday, but Monday Thursday toGood Friday, to our glorious
resurrection Sunday.
And then, guess what, everySunday is, jim, between that
(46:09):
Easter Sunday, it's Easter baby,it's Easter.
Christ is risen.
He is risen indeed, hallelujah,hallelujah.
Can I say hallelujah?
It's like I'm saying it on.
I'm not in liturgical traditionright now, but we'll be back
next week with another episodeof the Till Moment podcast.
I'm grateful for you, jim.
Thanks buddy, thanks brother.
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