March 26, 2025 • 52 mins
Pastor Jason Schleicher shares insights from his new book "Good Lord: A Not So Shocking Look at the Goodness of God," exploring how we can recognize divine goodness even amid life's struggles and pain.
• God's goodness is visible throughout creation—from breathtaking landscapes to the intricacy of our bodies
• Starting with listening is crucial when people question God's goodness during difficult seasons
• Peter's story demonstrates how God's goodness includes redemption for our failures and shortcomings
• Color reveals God's artistry—from Hawaiian landscapes to everyday beauty that we often overlook
• We are literally "made of light" at our cellular level, reflecting our creator in profound ways
• Encouraging words build relational safety and allow difficult conversations to happen productively
• Rest is essential for experiencing God's goodness—we should work from rest, not work to rest
• Maintaining boundaries and systems helps church leaders balance ministry demands with family needs
Find Jason's book at goodlordbook.com or contact him at jason@goodlordbook.com
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I do pray that people that are hurting, that are
struggling, can find comfort inGod's Word, because it's all
over.
It's all over the Psalms, it'sall over Old Testament, new
Testament, that God is good, heis for us, and we won't always
see that on this side of heaven,but as long as sin is in this
world, we will deal with thosestruggles and hurts.
But we have comfort in a Godwho overcame those struggles for
(00:23):
us as well.
We have comfort in a God whoovercame those struggles for us
as well.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Welcome to the Tim Allman Podcast.
Tim Allman, here I pray the joyof Jesus.
His love, his affirmation, youridentity in Christ and your
baptism is fueling you for alife of leadership, learning,
partnering with people who areall around you, going on a
journey to become more likeJesus, the journey of
sanctification by the HolySpirit's power, all for the sake
of those who do not know Jesus.
(00:49):
I get to hang out today with apartner in the gospel that I
have admired from afar, jasonSchleicher.
Let me tell you a little bitabout Jason.
Jason serves at Salem LutheranChurch in Tomball.
He and his wife, amy, have beenmarried for over two decades.
They love parenting.
They're three kids.
We have three kids too.
Jason and I actually overlappedfor three, four years or so at
(01:11):
Concordia University, nebraskaGo Bulldogs, and he had 14 years
as a DCE Director of ChristianEducation before becoming an
ordained pastor in 2019.
He loves to lead adult smallgroups, children's ministries,
mission worship.
We were just talking before wehit play.
He gets to use his director ofChristian education skills, but
(01:35):
he has now a pastor's heart.
He loves working with people ofall ages.
His favorite aspect of pastoralministry is the one-on-one
conversations, as well aspreaching proclamation sharing
the gospel he's an avid.
We were just hearing it DetroitLions, you're a Detroit.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Lions.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Yeah, man, that's a tough, tough one.
I'm a Broncos fan and it's beentough for over a decade Sorry
about this last year.
Avid sports fan, he lovesplaying board games, card games
and he's the new author of abrand new book called Good Lord
a not so shocking look at thegoodness of God.
So that's where we're going tobe orienting ourselves today.
How are you doing, Jason?
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Yes, sir, I'm good, Thank you.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Yeah, man, I've been pumped to hang out with you.
Let's hunt the good stuff.
What do you say when someonecomes up in pastoral ministry,
jason, and they're justquestioning, it could be they're
walking through inevitablestruggle, trial, loss, grief,
and they question the goodnessof God.
I mean, this is one of thosebiggest questions as a
theologian, as a pastor, whereis God, our good God, in the
(02:37):
midst of struggle?
Let's start there, jason.
What do you say generally,brother, yeah well, he's there.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
He is there despite the struggles and the hurts and
he cares for us.
I think somebody asked me whenI was in the book writing
process I kind of beta testedsome of the chapters as a Bible
study here at Salem First, andsomebody said who's your
audience?
And I said, well, anybody couldread it.
But then he said no, that's toogeneral, like who's your
audience?
(03:02):
And I even said maybe someonethat's kind of drifting a little
bit from God or questioningwhether God is good.
I would say to.
Well, I wouldn't say anythingat first.
I would listen, becauseunderneath that is some sort of
hurt, some sort of brokennessthat they're probably wanting to
share but maybe haven't had theopportunity.
So I would certainly ask theright questions to try to get
(03:25):
them to talk.
But then probably the simplestanswer I would give is look at
the world around you, look atthe way God formed your body,
look at the creation he has made, look at chocolate and peanut
butter together.
Like God allowed those thingsto happen for our good.
And that's what the book's aboutis just looking at the goodness
(03:47):
of God in the world around usand in His Word.
And I do pray that people thatare hurting, that are struggling
, can find comfort in God's Wordbecause it's all over.
It's all over the Psalms, it'sall over Old Testament, new
Testament that God is good, heis for us, and we won't always
see that on this side of heaven,but as long as sin is in this
(04:09):
world, we will deal with thosestruggles and hurts.
But we have comfort in a Godwho overcame those struggles for
us as well.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
That's so good.
I love how you're starting outwith kind of a first article
reality, nature of who God is.
And for those of you who arefirst article, what in the world
?
So God is creator, god isfather.
What is it about peanut butterand chocolate that is so
intoxicating?
I'm right there with you.
You give me some peanut butter,some chocolate, a top of some
ice cream.
Like that's a guilty pleasure,right there for sure.
(04:39):
But yeah, I mean say more abouthow God reveals himself to us
in creation.
I like to go just look at ourbodies, just look at our minds,
right, the heartbeat that Idon't do anything to like make
my heartbeat and oxygen comeinto my lungs and my eyes to see
and to go out into the worldthat's filled with, yeah, tough
(05:02):
stuff, hard stuff, for sure werecognize it.
But beauty and wonder, liketechnology, that I get to hang
out with my friend Jason and goout into the world that's filled
with, yeah, tough stuff, hardstuff, for sure we recognize it,
but beauty and wonder, liketechnology, that I get to hang
out with my friend Jason andtalk about Jesus.
Today there's so many goodthings that I think a lot of
times when we're down right Sinis man or woman turned in on
themselves, our heads are down,our hearts are down, rather than
our eyes up and out.
It's not like those of us thatare optimists, are unaware of
(05:27):
the tragedy, the trials of life,the cruelty, you could say even
of life.
It's just that we kind of seenow, by the Spirit's power, a
new way of being, because I'vedone hundreds of funerals, I've
sat and cried in the midst ofaddiction, in the midst of
suicide, in the midst of all thepastoral things that we walk
through, and yet I see thegoodness of God out in creation
(05:48):
and he's calling me, he'scalling me out, and this is
before we even get to Jesus.
There's just this innateunderstanding that the world is
filled with and this is a termwe probably don't, but magic
Like.
There's so many things that arejust unbelievable in the world,
right, it seems magical,mysterious, it's beautiful.
So anything more to say aboutunderstanding the goodness of
God from a first articleperspective there, jason?
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Yeah, for me, I need to go somewhere where there's
mountains and a babbling brook.
There you go.
There is something my familyover the last few years have
taken vacations to mountains.
We've gone to Colorado, we'vegone to Great Smoky Mountain
National Park, we went up toAcadia National Park last summer
.
If you give me mountains and ababbling brook, I could sit
(06:32):
there for hours pondering God'sgoodness.
But I think what you were saying, how Satan tries to isolate us.
He's always lying.
That's his native tongue, saysthe Lord.
So if we get sucked into that,it's too easy to look at the not
good aspects of even God.
You question whether he's good,you're wondering if he's with
(06:53):
you.
But go for a walk.
Recognize that this morningwhen you woke up, you did not
tell your lungs start breathingready.
Go.
Our bodies, the people aroundus, family, friends, your church
these are places where God'sgoodness shines.
But you go to his word.
You're going to see it over andover again that even though
(07:16):
life is tough, life hasstruggles, god is still faithful
.
He will pull you through that.
One of the chapters in the booktalks about mentors.
Go find someone that can pullyou out when you're in that pit
of despair a little bit, and forme it's a babbling brook.
I don't need a mentor tellingme that Just get me to the
mountains and I'll be fine, yeah, amen.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
That's saying, with mentors and our need, we can't
be in the word of God or eventhink about the things of God on
our own.
The word of God is meant to beproclaimed right into our ears.
We have to hear it from someoneelse.
Every preacher needs a preacher.
you may say and maybe that's forchurch workers, maybe that's
one of the struggles becauseyou're pouring out, you're
(08:01):
giving, you're giving but you'renot receiving.
I've got so many differentfolks.
I was telling you about PastorMichael Hyden, one of our
pastors on our team before weget going.
I love I don't have to worryabout him saying anything goofy
or it being awkward or anythinglike.
He's been doing it for a while.
I was a pastor during hisvicarage year at Bethlehem and
(08:22):
now he's become like a friend.
So when he preaches or when wego on a walk in the riparian
preserve adjacent to our campushere at Gilbert, like it's a
friend, he's a mentor, he's anadvisor for me and I love
talking about Jesus with him.
Like that's like some of thebest conversations ever.
(08:44):
So I really feel.
I really feel sad, I guess, forchurch leaders and just going
straight to leadership right whofeel alone, like they don't
have mentors, prayer partnersand teammates every single day.
You've served in differentcontexts some smaller
congregations, you know.
I mean that's a, that's an easytendency Give some words of
wisdom for the wisdom, for thechurch leader at a variety of
(09:05):
different levels who may feellike they're alone.
We need mentors, jason.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
I would say three things.
I agree with you.
It's very critical to havesomebody physically that you can
talk, to go on a walk with, getyou out of that space.
For many church workers that'sdifficult to find within their
church.
I love the team ministrysetting that you're saying.
I've only served in teamministry and I thank God for the
(09:30):
teammates that I've served withbecause I do feel like I could
go to them with a struggle.
I could go to them with aproblem, but maybe go back to a
good college friend or a goodhigh school friend, somebody
that doesn't know your church oryour people that well, give
them a quick call For me.
I've also found other churchleaders that are not Lutheran,
(09:51):
like Max Lucado and Louis Giglio.
Those are guys that, whetherI'm reading or watching one of
their messages, that fills mysoul.
In the book I talk about thewriter of Hebrews.
We don't even know who that is,but the writer of Hebrews has
been a mentor to me and hedoesn't even know it.
So I feel like it should be aperson, somebody that you could
talk to, but you don't have toknow the person for them to
(10:15):
mentor your faith walk either.
The apostle Paul is a greatanother mentor for us.
So those are examples that I'veused, but I've also gone to
people that I went to collegewith that don't know anything
about my church now, or peoplethat I went to high school with
that saw me in a different timeof life and just can encourage
me, lift me up, remind me hey,you're a good friend and you're
(10:38):
going to make it through thisand God's got you.
So those are some examples Ihave, but I'm thankful to serve
in team ministry, like you,where I do have friends who are
coworkers, and that's.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
Yeah, for sure, you start out the book talking about
God is protector.
Why did you make that choice?
Speaker 1 (10:58):
That was not the original choice I had.
I started with creation andlooking at colors.
Where I wrote the majority ofthe book was on plane rides to
and from Hawaii.
My wife and I celebrated our20th wedding anniversary two
summers ago and we took a bigtrip and that was fun.
But I don't do well onairplanes so I don't sleep well.
(11:20):
I don't read a ton.
So I just started writing andthat was a lot of fun to do.
That was a lot of inspirationfor the book on those plane
rides.
But for me it was an editingthing.
So the development editor thatI worked with I had the chapters
ordered in a different way andshe said I think I want you to
start with one of your strongerones, and I'm not naive to think
(11:45):
that all of my chapters areequally strong.
So I wanted to start strong.
I liked some of the stories Itold there.
I like the dancing betweenPsalm 31 and Psalm 61 and all
those big words like refuge andfortress and strong tower, and
well, that's one of the ways wecan trust that God is good,
because he is protecting us andhe's eventually and always
(12:09):
protecting us from the evil oneand from an eternity apart from
God, so that's why I chose tostart with that one after the
development editor's suggestion.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
I love that Do you as a congregation and as a leader,
do you spend much time talkingabout kind of spiritual warfare?
Because when I think protector,I don't just think of death and
sin, especially in this day andage.
We're coming out of four weeksof a trauma series.
We started in 2025 with a bangas a faith community and then we
(12:39):
moved right into a spiritualwarfare five-week sermon series
that we're just at the tail endof.
Are you guys talking about theEphesians 6,?
We don't fight against fleshand blood, but against the
powers and principalities ofthis dark age the liar, the
accuser, the counterfeit lightbringer, satan.
Talk about the protection ofthe triune God against the
(13:00):
forces of darkness in our world.
Jason.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
It feels like that's a topic that churches need to
address more.
We have done some.
I remember I did a sermonseries where I often lead the
August kind of back to schoolone and then Tim kicks off more
of a fall kickoff in earlySeptember and we did one on.
Some of the struggle is real,but also we looked at kind of
(13:26):
the lies of Satan and how he'strying to get a foothold.
So I believe we could talkabout that more.
I think too many people thinkthe struggle that they're
experiencing is somethingcircumstantial or another person
.
The enemy is not your spouse.
The enemy is not your children.
The enemy is not your kid'steacher or coach.
(13:49):
It's probably Satan gettingunderneath and pulling at some
heartstrings and emotionalstrings that are causing you and
me to feel yuck and to feelupset and angry and sad all at
the same time about things thatare going to happen in this
world.
We will experiencedisappointment.
(14:10):
So, yeah, I wish churches wouldtalk about that more.
Experience disappointment so,yeah, I wish churches would talk
about that more.
I'm convicted, as you say that,that we probably need to throw
another series in quickly abouthow we fight against the devil's
temptations and his lies, andthat is where our struggle is.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
Yeah, we're proud.
We're proud of our Lutheranheritage and Luther.
Some of Luther's best storiescome in terms of spiritual
warfare.
I don't know if you've everheard of this one, but Luther
was very vivid, he had a, he hadquite the imagination, and he
tells one story of beingawakened in the in the later
(14:48):
nights or early morning and andhaving and I don't know if he
saw Satan or whether it was justa presence of darkness in the
room.
He's kind of uh, he could beprone toward being frozen with
fear.
I don't know if you've heardthis story and it was later on
in his life and he kind of turnsover.
I picture Luther, probably inhis fifties, you know, early
fifties, kind of a gruff old,and he looks at Satan and he
(15:09):
tells us in his Luther, uh,luther's works, you know, is
kind of table talks with some ofhis students, and then he turns
over and he goes, oh, it's justyou, and rolls over and goes
back to bed, you know.
So it's aware, but he's notlike crippled in fear, or
obviously the early Luther wascrippled in fear, the cursing,
the crushing weight of the lawand Satan's, and agreeing with
(15:32):
Satan's lies that he was definedby what he did or failed to do,
rather than by the finishedwork of Jesus.
So I think we need to spendmore time and it doesn't have to
be a sermon series per se, butjust reminding people
consistently that if you'retrying to simply make, as you
said, your brother, your sister,your spouse, the government,
(15:53):
any kind of person your enemy,you're barking up the wrong tree
right, because it is Satan whowants to steal, kill, destroy
and divide us, whisper lies intoour ears, and we need the
powerful work, the word of Jesus, to crush the lies of Satan.
And that's exactly what.
Let's go to chapter two.
You talk about Peter, and Peterhad and I love the
(16:16):
juxtaposition of Peter's storyand Judas's story, though
Judas's story is remarkablytragic Peter could have been
turned away from, away fromJesus, and yet he jumps in the
water and can't wait to get tothe risen Jesus, even post, post
denial.
So what does the story of Peterteach us about the goodness of
God there, jason?
Speaker 1 (16:43):
I refer to Peter in the book as the disciple who
often talked before he thought,or he was bold enough to say,
probably, what the others werethinking.
But what a unique picture ofhis walking ministry with Jesus,
his messing up royally invarious situations.
I can relate to Peter.
I can relate to sometimesspeaking without thinking and
going man, I wish I wouldn'thave said that.
(17:04):
So I relate well to him.
I love the story of John 21.
We're going to preach on thegospel of John all throughout
Lent this year and I get topreach that Sunday after Easter.
We're going to preach on thegospel of John all throughout
Lent this year and I get topreach that Sunday after Easter.
We're going to extend theseries and so I get to do John
21.
That's one of my favoritestories because he is so
(17:25):
passionate.
That's where I talk about himin the book.
But he's jumping into the wateras if.
What is he going to help rowthe boat in?
Like I don't, I don't know.
He just wanted to see Jesus now, and then, I'm sure, the other
disciples this is what I've toldpeople in Bible classes and
things, because God's worddoesn't say but if they're doing
all the work to get to theshore.
(17:46):
I'm sure eventually one of theother Andrew or somebody was
like you go clean up, like youleft us to do the work to get
here.
You can't just go hang out andhave breakfast with Jesus.
So you go clean up.
I love his passion.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
I do too, and I relate to him just like you do.
I love how John is the one.
This is a note that I had notlooked at.
I preached on it maybe two,three months ago or so.
No, it was in the trauma series.
We looked at Peter's storythrough his denial, so this was
like six weeks ago.
So John is the one who tellsPeter it's the Lord, there's
(18:26):
others in the boat, right.
It says there's like six whoare there, but he looks directly
at Peter and he says it's theLord and we need people, kind
friends like John and I loveJohn's details that he brings
out that the other gospels don'tnecessarily have.
But he's like no, I was the onethat looked at Peter the denier
, you could say the one whoabandoned, the one who should
have been the closest to Jesus.
And yet he's the rock, right,his confession is the rock, and
(18:47):
yet Peter needed to get.
So I don't throw Peter too farunder the bus, because I mean
John did it.
John was the one that pointedout hey, it's Jesus, and he kind
of loses his mind, his fleeingtendency.
I think it's an amygdala hijackof Peter.
He's not even thinking aboutanything else, right, he has
laser focused on getting to theLord.
How much more do we needfriends who say, in the midst of
(19:10):
your sin, your struggle, yourdenial, your disbelief, it's the
Lord, here he is in his word,in his table for you.
Anything more to say, though,about that amazing story and how
we need kind friends that pointus to Jesus.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
Well, jesus was the kind friend of Peter.
Jesus turned his life around.
Jesus healed his mother-in-law.
These are stories that maybeget glossed over, but, yeah, I
appreciate his boldness.
I love his epistles in the NewTestament.
I love his perspective.
Many people are excited aboutspending time with grandparents
(19:47):
and great-grandparents andfamily members gone before when
they get to heaven.
I'd like to spend a day or twowith Peter.
I just feel like he's got thatpassion that I desire to have.
I want to have that kind ofreckless abandon to live my life
for the Lord.
It's okay when I mess up, but Iwant to live with that reckless
abandon, like Peter.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Yeah, well, and it led him.
Peter is a leader.
Peter's a hardwired leader.
God made him a certain way.
He's bold, he can speak whenothers couldn't speak, but maybe
don't speak.
I picture the apostlespost-Pentecost even because all
(20:29):
these people want to hear about,they're talking all in these,
you could say small groups andall these different languages,
and yet Peter rises up and givesthe first sermon that draws
people Talk about the fruit ofthat message 3,000, some people
baptized.
You know, I think all theapostles, john included, are
like.
God hardwired this guy to speak.
He has the authority.
He's a Jew of Jews, in manyrespects right.
(20:51):
I mean, he's a zealot.
He understands the scripturesand yet he's very, very bold.
He would even lose his life forthe Lord.
And we need, you know, maybe wecan go down this rabbit trail a
little bit.
I don't think we recognize theunique gifts within the body of
Christ, those that are maybe theout front bold leaders and
those that are doing more behindthe scenes work.
(21:14):
It's Paul highlights this likenobody's business, right, and
you could say Peter too, callingout the royal priesthood.
But all the unique gifts weneed the bold out front leader,
that's definitely Peter.
We need the thoughtful mentor.
Not that Paul isn't acourageous proclaimer of the
gospel, but I see him as thestrategic disciple multiplier.
I see John as kind of the heartof the whole thing, the one
(21:39):
who's probably close to Maryinto her later years.
He's a disciple, he's astoryteller, john.
So we need all those types ofgifts and I think sometimes in
the body of Christ we lowercertain gifts and elevate other
gifts.
They're all equal, but we needto encourage.
It's like an orchestra, right.
We need to encourage eachperson to play their appropriate
(22:02):
part.
Anything more to say there,jason?
Speaker 1 (22:04):
Amen.
I think we need theBartholomews and the James the
Lesser just as much as thePeters and the Johns.
I love how Paul, at the end ofa lot of his letters, will
highlight people by name, andthe number of women that he
lists is phenomenal to me.
(22:25):
You don't hear about thosepeople anywhere else, but the
way he talks about them showsthey were supporting, they were
encouraging, they were caringfor him when he was in prison.
These were people that we don'tknow anything else about other
than Paul name dropped them atthe end, saying these people
(22:45):
co-labored with me for the causeof Christ.
And yeah, there's people thatare upfront leaders.
There's people that wouldprefer to be behind the scenes,
but we all have a co-laboringfor Christ aspect.
I love Luther's theology ofpriesthood of all believers, and
that's true in ourneighborhoods, that's true in
(23:06):
our workplaces, that's truewithin our own families and
extended families, and you don'thave to be pastor or church
worker or anything to be that.
So I'm thankful for that callon our lives and I'm thankful
for the Apostle Paul and otherscalling out some of the people
that we would have never heardof.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
Preach Good stuff, jason, all right, you said your
favorite chapter in the book wason colors, chapter five how do?
Colors display the goodness ofGod.
That was unique to me.
I loved it.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
Well, maybe not for someone that's super color blind
or something, but I just lovehow our world is unique with
different colors.
I've always been a fan oforange.
That's partly why the bookcover has orange on it.
And when we went to Hawaii,well, that blue orange the blue
and orange of M&Ms are two of myfavorite colors.
(23:57):
So maybe I'm a closet Broncosfan somehow.
But when we went to Hawaii,there was this tree and we saw
it all over and it was gorgeousand and I kept seeing these
orange buds and I kept takingpictures of them.
I'm like that's my new favoritetree, that's my tree.
So I just love how God hascreated animals of different
(24:22):
colors.
If you look at our eyeballs,they're different colors.
I love the different shades ofskin.
I love different colors of hair.
I love that I'm getting alittle white on my hair, like
color is just fun.
And I have a young daughterwho's turning eight soon.
Well, she still loves to colorand that's very relaxing for her
(24:43):
.
She's kind of crafty, so I lovewhat she comes up with.
Color usually makes peoplesmile and that's partly why I
like that chapter.
I liked the various things Isaw in Hawaii.
That was my first trip everover there and some of the
colors are more vibrant.
The sun sets a little morepicturesque there than other
(25:05):
places it's extraordinary.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Hawaii is unbelievable.
It's paradise.
We just went to Kauai for our20th year, just three months ago
or so, and it was unreal howthe vibrancy.
It's a darker green, yes, yes,and then a brighter orange than
I think you see in many placeshere in the 48 states, here in
(25:29):
the US and the chickens.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
Did you see the chickens?
Speaker 2 (25:31):
The chickens, oh yeah , there's chickens everywhere.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
You know why that happened?
Right, and they're multicolored.
I love that.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
Crazy, crazy, cool chickens.
They're just everywhere.
Do you know why that happened?
No, because of a hurricane backand the chickens just.
They got released.
And were you in Kauai?
Speaker 1 (25:58):
That was one island we didn't go to.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
So there were chickens.
There's chickens on otherislands.
I didn't know if the chickenswere just yeah, ok, so they're
everywhere.
So if you ever go to Hawaii, Igot a little tag with a chicken
that says underneath the bag tagthat says Hawaii.
So random people could ask whyin the world do you got a
chicken?
Anyway, yeah, they're colorfulchickens absolutely everywhere.
Have you ever thought aboutlike the very first thing God
(26:19):
did was was create color?
Yeah, let there be light.
Right, I love, yeah, I lovethat.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
And go ahead Just the the various aspects of creation
.
Uh, my wife told me when wewere going through the Bible
study because remember I toldyou the first chapter was going
to be creation and colors, I hadkind of a two word pairing for
each chapter.
Again, the development editorsaid that's too much, get it
down to one word.
But my wife brought up in theBible class that God used colors
(26:52):
the first three days ofcreation and then he filled
those colors days four, five andsix.
So I love that imagery, thatthe yellow and the blue and the
green.
So yeah, colors.
God is the masterful artist,he's the painter and we're the
product.
Like we get to experience itand love it.
(27:14):
And I think in the book I justchallenge people like next time
you're in the grocery store,next time you're at a church
with stained glass, like I thinkwe just kind of gloss over
these things and the beauty thatpeople can make with color and
that our God has made with coloris not something to be glossed
over.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
No, no, I'm not.
I'm not a scientist by anystretch, so this is playing
beyond, beyond my, my pay grade,but I think, like
astrophysicists and a lot oftheir, I guess, hypotheses
around the origin of everythingand we know who the author is
(27:53):
like We'll locate light as, likethe primary foundation, it's
the building block of all of ourcells.
Have you, have you heard aboutthis before?
Speaker 1 (28:02):
I haven't, but I believe it.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
I could.
I could quote some different.
I leave it in the show notesactually some different podcasts
I've listened to on this.
Again, I'm not a scientist, butwhen you break it all down,
every the flashpoint, jesus isliterally, and then you and I
are literally made of light.
Yep, love that we're, we're atour cellular level, we're, we're
(28:26):
light bringers.
It's unbelievable.
So, now that I'm bringing thisup, I got to bring up I got to
bring up the Shroud of Turin.
I've been on a Shroud of Turinkick for.
So you got to do the researchand I know we're heading into
Easter this will probably be out.
This is a book called Body ofProof.
Not that we believe the word.
The word is the biggest body ofproof but there's a number of
other and the eyewitness reports, a number of other testimonies.
(28:50):
Well, the Shroud of Turin is thereal shroud of first century
Jerusalem.
Do you know that scientistshave recently documented this?
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Jason, I've heard little about that, but you
probably know way more than me.
So keep going, brother.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Well, no, the Shroud of Turin.
I just want to bring it to thepoint of light.
There's a light point on thatshroud, which a shroud, a burial
cloth for the Jews, a verythick, well put together,
expensive garment.
And there's a flashpoint on thetop of that shroud that cannot
be reduplicated in any sort ofscientific experiment.
(29:25):
And they believe, and I believe, that it shows the flashpoint
of life, resurrected life.
Jesus was in the grave.
They say about 30 days.
It shows rigor mortis had setin.
He hadn't even come out ofrigor mortis yet.
So in the shroud his knees arekind of up.
And another interesting pointhis shoulders have been
(29:46):
dislocated because it looks inthis shroud.
If you look like his arms arereally long, it's because
they're out of joint.
But then this image comes andit's a moment of resurrection.
Another crazy point that showsall the marks.
A Roman spear in the side isshown, the 50 different marks of
the crown of thorns.
(30:07):
Not a polite instrument, it wasan instrument of torture upon
the crucified Jesus.
But then the, the biggestinteresting cause it's like a.
It's a reverse negative, it's anegative impression.
So it's like dark.
His hair looks dark but inreality, because it's a negative
, his hair is white.
(30:27):
Jason.
Oh wow, it's a fulfillment ofscripture like nuts, so this is
why the people would look at melike whoa like they had to like,
do a double take the dudes onthe road to Emmaus like they
didn't even recognize him.
He looked remarkably differentWhite hair, hair that's white.
Anyway, it all took placebecause of a flashpoint of
extreme energy shown throughlight.
(30:48):
That's mind blowing, isn't it,Jason?
I love that.
Shown through light, that'smind-blowing isn't it, jason?
Speaker 1 (30:51):
I love it, I love it.
And then he calls himself lightof the world.
He says you also meaning us arelight of the world.
I love the concept of we get toshine for him in a dark world.
I love that concept of lightand dark.
It takes us back to creation.
But that's who he is, that'swho he's called us to be and
someday we're going to see himface to face and no more shroud,
(31:12):
no more veil, no more covering.
And yeah, I love that.
Even Revelation says there's noneed for light there.
There's no street lamps needed.
There's no because he is thelight.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
Yeah, have you ever thought about the vibrancy of
colors that will be present whenJesus comes back, like just
breathtaking?
Speaker 1 (31:37):
I have tried to let my mind go there.
I share a little bit about thatin the book.
I think it's one of thequestions I ask at the end, like
have you ever imagined thecolors of heaven and what would
that be like?
Because there's some prettyamazing places here on Earth
where we get to see color.
Hawaii is one of them, butthere's others.
I'm sure people that haveventured up to see fall colors
(31:58):
in the Northeast or I'm sureother places in the world have
some pretty amazing colorsAwesome.
Those are just a glimpse ofwhat we will see.
Imagine the palette of ourpainter God in heaven.
Imagine the palette of ourpainter God in heaven.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
Yeah, for sure have you.
What's the Avatar movie thatcame out?
The blue, the blue guys.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
Remember this movie?
Yeah, I just know the ride atDisney world.
I don't know much about themovie, but so that's what I'm
talking about.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
That ride it's at the animal kingdom in Orlando.
It is the closest experience tothe new heaven and new earth
I've ever had.
Right, right, because you're inthis little.
You're in this little like, uh,motorcycle thing we're kind of
like banshee riding a bansheeand stuff and the colors that
disney brought out in that rideare the closest thing to, I
think, the new heaven and newearth that I've ever experienced
(32:46):
.
I was like you ever get thoselike holy spirit, like just the
awe and wonder.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
That's how I experience Breathtaking.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
Breathtaking, exactly so, so good.
Well, this has been.
We got a couple more questions.
I'm so pumped.
I love talking colors with you.
I don't think I've ever talkedcolors with that kind of depth
with anyone in my life, so thatwas cool.
Thanks for bringing that out.
Let's pivot to talking and thepower of words to point us to
the goodness of God, and when Ithink words, I think of people
(33:19):
need.
If you got a heartbeat, life isdiscouraging.
If you got a heartbeat, youneed encouragement.
So just talk about the power ofwords to shape the human heart
and to point us to the goodnessof Jesus.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Yeah, words matter.
I love animals, I loveinanimate objects in our world
that God has made, but theycan't speak to us, they can't
encourage our heart and mind.
So the story I tell fromscripture is Job's friends who
have every intention of comingto care for him, to sympathize
(33:47):
with him, to comfort him, andthey don't talk to him for seven
days and seven nights.
And what a missed opportunity.
And then, when they do starttalking to him, they're ripping
on him, they're saying it's yourfault, man, you did something
wrong.
So we have a unique opportunityto use words to build up, not
tear down.
And we live in a tear downworld.
We live in a elevate self.
(34:08):
Tear down.
Others judge everything.
You see, every picture, everypost, every person.
Well, I love the fact that Godhas given us tongues and vocal
boxes that can use words thatbuild up and encourage, and
we're called to do that.
It's a gift from God that wecan speak.
So let's use our words to buildup, not tear down.
(34:29):
God that we can speak, so let'suse our words to build up, not
tear down.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
What is it connected to our fallen human nature,
jason, that there's something inme it's not the Holy Spirit
this counter force that we couldsay it's satanic, demonic that
(34:55):
wants to look at other peopleand either compare myself as
better than, or put myself downas worse than, or put the worst
construction on other people'saction and the best construction
on my intention.
It's like there's thiscounterforce in me and I would
say everyone, if you're quitehonest, that is at war with the
real me in Jesus.
That needs to be, shall we say,crucified with Christ day by
day, so that I notice things andI want to speak them.
(35:19):
One of our biggest highlightsas a team.
If I could pray for one thingfor staff teams, and whether
it's you as a pastor of a smallchurch with your elders,
whatever go on retreat at leasta couple times a year.
We do it quarterly, go havefood, fellowship, but then
encouragement.
We start off every staffretreat with basically something
(35:41):
like this I praise Jesus thatyou're on the team, because dot,
dot, dot and you could.
There's no shortage of ways wecan kind of set people up to
speak words of encouragement andevery single time we do that,
there are people that startcrying because of joy that
people recognize them, you know,we don't hear it enough.
(36:03):
We don't hear it enough.
People light up.
It's like the little kid wethink that you want.
Everybody wants to encourage alittle five-year-old little
Tommy or Timmy or whatever youknow.
Look at that cute little guygoing to do his thing.
We grew up.
The 55-year-old needsencouragement and love, you know
, and recognition that somebodyactually sees what they're doing
and what you're doing isactually making a difference.
(36:24):
Sometimes I'm going to go andthis isn't a political podcast
that Tim and I try to stay outof the LCMS culture.
You and I are both in theLutheran Church Missouri Synod,
but sometimes I wonder like isour, all of our meetings at
every level in our synodstarting out with words of love
and care and respect for oneanother scene?
What would it, what would itlook like if every district
(36:47):
president I know this is hard Ifevery district president, all
of our unique context, startedout with a small group of other
district presidents in theirregion or whatever, saying I'm
so grateful.
We may disagree on a couple ofthings, whatever we're working
it out, but I'm so grateful Isee your district working toward
this end.
That would be a uniting force.
Encouragement brings courageand it unites.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
So let's start out with way more encouraging
conversations Go ahead.
Go ahead, Jason.
People would be flocking to ourchurches if that's how churches
and leaders acted towards oneanother.
So yeah, I feel like thoseactivities where you speak words
is amazing.
I've also done them.
Where you write them, you knoweverybody's name is on a piece
of paper.
People will keep those for along, long time, because
(37:32):
sometimes on our worst of days,we just need to be reminded
somebody believes in me,somebody cares in me, somebody
sees something in me that Ican't see in myself right now.
So, yeah, I'm with you that I'ma big fan of starting meetings
or gatherings with.
Hey, give me some joy, tell mesomething amazing, not about me,
not about, but just.
(37:53):
Let's share positive, let's usewords that build, and I'm with
you.
I think lots of people would bevery attracted to that and
would feel built up, not just onthe defensive, like how can I
battle today against thesepeople?
Nope, we're on the same team.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
Facts.
Well, what it does, jason, isit moves us.
If you enter into conversationand you accuse, condemn, divide,
it immediately moves a humanbrain to fight or flight or
freeze or fawn right.
So the best way to get us tousing our strategic prefrontal
cortex to work throughinevitable struggles is to start
(38:34):
with encouragement, becausethen in our staff retreats we're
always talking about stuff thatcould be improved.
We're never.
We're never there, right.
So?
But the foundation is love andcare.
As we talk about the struggle, Iknow I just heard that leader
give me words of encouragement.
So, as we talk about this andmaybe in my department or
something that I'm kind ofresponsible for and I may have,
(38:56):
I may be prone toward guilt orshame, no, no, no, we're just
going to talk about it.
We're all going to put ourheads together, our hearts
together, to work toward thatthing.
It it removes the stigma likeyou're, you're bad.
Human beings at their base wantto know am I seen, am I loved,
am I known, am I cared for?
And is this a safe?
(39:18):
You talk about protection.
Is this a safe place for us totalk about difficult things?
That is the leader's number oneresponsibility.
It's to create, you could sayrelational safety, so that
inevitable things that aredifficult can be discussed and
not torn, tearing us apart,becoming more fractured in all
of our different conversations.
I just get pumped even talkingabout this right now, because
(39:39):
encouragement is the fuel formission.
Anything more to say on that,jason?
Speaker 1 (39:45):
Well, god's word says speak the truth in love.
So it doesn't just say speakthe truth and it doesn't just
say speak love all the time.
There has to be the balance.
But I love that concept ofrelational capital.
You earn the right to be ableto talk about the hard things
with people when you've shownthem, but I still value you, I
care for you, and not just, butI still.
(40:06):
You've started with that.
You've laid a differentfoundation to be able to say and
now how can we grow and how canwe do it together?
Because, remember, I stillvalue you, believe in you, think
you're an amazing, giftedperson in that role.
So, yeah, let's lay a differentfoundation that doesn't spin
our heads around into that fightor flight.
(40:26):
I love that.
Maybe you should write a book,tim.
I love that.
Maybe you should write a book,tim.
Speaker 2 (40:29):
That's what I think, Jason.
No.
Speaker 1 (40:31):
Well, you already wrote it, you already wrote it
and obviously it's written down.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
It's the word of God, it's God.
You have every reason to be indespair, nihilistic, hedonistic,
et cetera, and yet the God ofthe universe has called you by
name, right?
He said this is my beloved sonor daughter and you.
I am well pleased, just like hegave.
If Jesus needed encouragementfrom the father, how much more
so do we need encouragement?
So it is the fuel for ourmission.
(40:55):
And I just got to say thisJason, you're an awesome human.
I know you're a pastor,whatever.
You're just a delightful human.
This has been so fun.
Last question, though what isthe role of rest?
Chapter 10, you talk about restand understanding the goodness
of God you talk about rest andunderstanding the goodness of
God.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
Well, I don't know how many seasons in your life
you've had where you can tellyou're under rested right.
There's just not enough going.
Just this past week we wereworking on a Lenten devotion
book that our staff creates andI was up way too late editing
those way too late in the nightand I just wasn't myself.
I wasn't sharp the next day.
Man, god gave us a body.
(41:36):
That's pretty amazing, but itdoes have to shut down a little
bit at nighttime or if you'reworking nights during the day,
that's a beautiful thing.
But then I couple that withit's not just sleep more, it's
turn your mind back to the Lord.
Don't just focus so much ontasks and then rest in him.
Come to me all you who areweary and burdened.
(41:56):
That's a verse I use, but thenI also connect it to Jesus
calling the disciples away.
Come by yourselves with me fora little while so that we can
rest, and then they feed the5,000.
Like they didn't get a lot ofrest, but Jesus knew they needed
it and he needed it.
He went off by himself to pray,sometimes early in the morning,
(42:17):
but he slept.
So did the disciples.
So for me it's probably acombination of how's your
sleeping going and are youresting in the Lord?
Are you spending intentionaltime praying, reading his word
being filled up.
Worship music's big for me,just soaking in God's presence
(42:41):
and can you put the otherworries and daily work tasks
aside for just a little bit tojust rest in who he is, in his
promises, and someday we'regoing to rest for all eternity
with him.
And that's the premise of thebook.
Man, he's good.
He's given us lots of thingsthat we can look around our
world and go.
(43:02):
Man, god's good, and it's notvery shocking.
So I'm just trying to redeemthe phrase.
Let's use the phrase in adifferent way.
How?
Speaker 2 (43:13):
to redeem the phrase.
Let's use the phrase in adifferent way.
We work from rest, right.
And if we go the other wayaround we work to rest, we're
not going to be, we're going tobe taxed and it's going to be
hard and we're going to burn outeventually.
And I would say one other thing.
I think sometimes our systemsthis is a podcast of Unite
Leadership Collective Maybesometimes our systems for work
(43:37):
and I would, managing our work,managing our tasks need to get
addressed.
So I'm a strong fan.
If you're not using planningcenter task manager, we use
Asana as a task manager.
The tasks are always going tobe there.
I have hundreds of tasks thatare for tomorrow or a week from
(43:58):
now.
I think Jesus, especially withthe chaotic, pinging world that
we live in constant distractionssocial media you know we're
always getting prone to alwaysbeing on.
I think Jesus would say youneed a good task management
system, son.
I don't know.
I think he would.
I think the Holy Spirit wouldtell us today, with all the
(44:20):
distractions, like you need tohave a day, you need to have a
rhythm, you need to have a way,you need to invite other people
into your task, because this istoo heavy.
This is too heavy for you.
You're not meant to be that onall the time People have asked
me.
I was just at the seminaryalumni basketball game, which
was super, super fun.
(44:40):
Jason had a really great-.
Speaker 1 (44:41):
Did you dunk?
That's the question, Tim.
Did you dunk?
Speaker 2 (44:43):
I'm six foot dude and I have a 10-.
I saw you play football.
Speaker 1 (44:48):
I know you're an athlete.
I'm a 10-inch vert right now.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
man Back in the day I could come close, I could dunk
a volley.
My hands are small.
I could dunk a volleyball backin the day, but not today,
that's for sure.
I keep my feet firmly on theground because I don't want to
roll an ankle or pull somethinggoofy.
It's pretty funny some studentsafterwards and they kind of ask
(45:11):
the question you know, how doyou have time to do podcasts and
do things like this?
It's because I've asked for alot of help and I have a system
to get things done at theappropriate time.
Each day has enough things to do, you know, and for me in this
season, just kind of behind thescenes a little bit, my helper
Dawn, she partners with me andshe cares for me and is like
analyzing rhythms of work andrest and play and family, and
(45:36):
here's something for me that'shuge.
I'd get your take.
You got kids, like the kidsschedules, all their different
things, right, that has to go onmy calendar first before
anything else, and if anythingelse was put on the calendar
before their athletic stuff orwhatever their events and stuff
like, I don't get that time back.
So I got to, I have to be thereand I also have time to coach
(45:56):
high school football and things.
It's just there's been adiscipline that's been
established over time, and ithas to do with systems that have
been set up so that I can workfrom rest, not work to rest.
Anything more to say there,jason.
Speaker 1 (46:15):
The hardest part, I think, of ministry is that it's
never done right.
Ministry is not a task that youcan check off and there's
always more work today, tomorrowand into the future.
So I'm with you.
I have tried very hard tocreate boundaries where I know I
will be a more effective leaderfor Jesus if my marriage is
good and my kids know that I ampresent and love them.
That doesn't mean I'm going tobe at everything.
But, man, I'm going to try,because I could still do more
(46:39):
work later in the night whenthey go to bed.
I can still find a way to dosome tasks on my day off.
But I love how you said you'renot going to get that time back.
So there's got to be balance inthat.
It can't be.
Forget my job.
I'm only a family guy.
Well then, you shouldn't bepaid.
But we got to find the balance.
So I I love that.
(47:00):
Uh, god calls us to rest, godcalls us to find rhythms and
let's figure out how to do thatwhere there's a little balance
between family and work,especially if we're in ministry
together.
That where there's a littlebalance between family and work,
especially if we're in ministrytogether.
But it's a tough thing whenministry is never done and
(47:20):
there's always more needs.
So I'm in that struggle withyou and trying to figure it out,
but I'm also trying to care formy family, my wife and my own
body as well, because you knowwhat?
We're not getting younger Tim.
These things are true, verytrue.
How old are your kids?
I have twin boys that turned 13in a couple months.
They're in seventh grade, andthen my daughter turns eight
this week.
She's in second grade.
Speaker 2 (47:41):
Yeah, that's kind of a sweet spot.
I got three in high school.
Speaker 1 (47:44):
Yeah, you're.
You're in a different stagethan me.
My kids love being home, and Iknow that might change someday,
but they would prefer to be homeand you drive them to school.
I drive them to school.
Our school is right on campushere, so I get that sweet time
with them and then, depending onpractices and whatnot, one of
us is driving them home.
Speaker 2 (48:05):
That's so cool.
Speaker 1 (48:06):
Yeah, I enjoy it.
Speaker 2 (48:07):
I don't drive anybody to school anymore.
Last year my daughter goes areyou going to miss me as you go
into?
I was like, well, yeah, I'vereally enjoyed these, these
sweet times with her.
And uh, are you, are you ableto get good time to take care of
yourself to start the morning?
Speaker 1 (48:26):
So I'm a late night owl, so I'm mostly caring for my
kids and making sure I get ashower in the morning, so to me,
the time that I can have formyself is more after they go to
bed or connecting with my wifeor whatever.
So I need to do a little moreexercise than I do.
I feel like I'm in decentphysical health, but I had back
(48:48):
surgery around Thanksgiving time, so I'm trying to figure out
what life is like in my 40s now,now that body parts aren't
quite doing what I wish theywould when they were 25 or
whatever did you have like aspinal thing or something like?
uh, it was a discectomy, so theytook out a portion of my disc
because it was all on top of mynerves and causing all sorts of
(49:09):
issues like lower lower back.
Yes, sir, I played a lot ofsports growing up and I think
I've even played a lot of sportsin my adulthood and probably
think that I was 22 again andI'm just not.
So I think my days of playingtons and tons of sports are over
, but it's okay.
Did the surgery help alleviate?
Oh, yeah, yeah, it's huge.
(49:30):
It was well done and I'mthankful I had it.
Speaker 2 (49:33):
Praise Jesus, that's amazing.
My goal is to never go underthe knife, and I say that having
had my appendix removed, whichis a funny little thing.
I think that little guy doessomething.
I don't know exactly what itdoes, but I had that removed,
we'll see.
I'll probably go under theknife sometime in my life, like
like you did.
It's amazing that we gotdoctors and nurses that can take
(49:55):
care of us when our bodiesbreak down, to elongate health
and, uh, vitality.
That's, that's beautiful, bro.
So, this has been, this has beengreat.
Uh, I will say one thing.
The Holy spirit put this on myheart.
I don't know if it was the Holyperiod or just my goofy brain,
but yeah, physical, the more wecan, the more we can do some
sort of resistance training.
The older we get, the sharperwe're going to be mentally.
Speaker 1 (50:18):
I love that.
I love that it used to becrossword puzzles.
What's that?
It used to be crossword puzzleswas the way to keep your mind
sharp.
But I'm with you.
Let's, let's do some resistancestuff.
Speaker 2 (50:31):
Let's go for walks, let's, let's do some walks, do
air squats air lunges.
I like scissor squats, which isa little bit more intense.
I got a whole regimen that I dowhen I'm in hotels and things,
and it's mostly plyometric body,but I my goal physically is a
sweat every single day.
So, um, yeah, whatever it takesto get some sort of a sweat on,
uh, that's good, good for mybrain.
(50:52):
Well, this has been awesome.
You need to pick up.
Listener of the Book Good Lord,the not so shocking look at the
goodness of God by Pastor JasonSchleicher, your friend and
ambassador of Christ, carryinghis love and his light out into
the world.
Speaker 1 (51:08):
So people can find this Amazon anywhere books are
sold and his light out into theworld so people can find this
Amazon anywhere books are sold.
I don't know if it's on Amazonyet, but probably the best way
is through this website that Icreated, goodlordbookcom, and if
they have questions it'sjasonatgoodlordbookcom, so I
would love to connect withpeople there.
Speaker 2 (51:24):
There you go.
It's a good day.
Go make it a great day.
Please like, subscribe, commentwherever it is you're taking in
these podcasts I hope thispodcast.
I have Jesus joy juice flowingthrough me right now Just
getting to talk to you, man.
This was so much fun and theLord is out.
Here's your invitation listener, encourage someone today, speak
words of love and life overthem.
(51:46):
Let them know the goodness ofGod in your words today.
It's a good day.
Go make it a great day.
You're the man, jason.
Thanks bud.
Speaker 1 (51:52):
Thanks Tim.
I do pray that people that are hurting, that are
struggling, can find comfort inGod's Word, because it's all
over.
It's all over the Psalms, it'sall over Old Testament, new
Testament, that God is good, heis for us, and we won't always
see that on this side of heaven,but as long as sin is in this
world, we will deal with thosestruggles and hurts.
But we have comfort in a Godwho overcame those struggles for
(00:23):
us as well.
We have comfort in a God whoovercame those struggles for us
as well.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Welcome to the Tim Allman Podcast.
Tim Allman, here I pray the joyof Jesus.
His love, his affirmation, youridentity in Christ and your
baptism is fueling you for alife of leadership, learning,
partnering with people who areall around you, going on a
journey to become more likeJesus, the journey of
sanctification by the HolySpirit's power, all for the sake
of those who do not know Jesus.
(00:49):
I get to hang out today with apartner in the gospel that I
have admired from afar, jasonSchleicher.
Let me tell you a little bitabout Jason.
Jason serves at Salem LutheranChurch in Tomball.
He and his wife, amy, have beenmarried for over two decades.
They love parenting.
They're three kids.
We have three kids too.
Jason and I actually overlappedfor three, four years or so at
(01:11):
Concordia University, nebraskaGo Bulldogs, and he had 14 years
as a DCE Director of ChristianEducation before becoming an
ordained pastor in 2019.
He loves to lead adult smallgroups, children's ministries,
mission worship.
We were just talking before wehit play.
He gets to use his director ofChristian education skills, but
(01:35):
he has now a pastor's heart.
He loves working with people ofall ages.
His favorite aspect of pastoralministry is the one-on-one
conversations, as well aspreaching proclamation sharing
the gospel he's an avid.
We were just hearing it DetroitLions, you're a Detroit.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Lions.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Yeah, man, that's a tough, tough one.
I'm a Broncos fan and it's beentough for over a decade Sorry
about this last year.
Avid sports fan, he lovesplaying board games, card games
and he's the new author of abrand new book called Good Lord
a not so shocking look at thegoodness of God.
So that's where we're going tobe orienting ourselves today.
How are you doing, Jason?
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Yes, sir, I'm good, Thank you.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Yeah, man, I've been pumped to hang out with you.
Let's hunt the good stuff.
What do you say when someonecomes up in pastoral ministry,
jason, and they're justquestioning, it could be they're
walking through inevitablestruggle, trial, loss, grief,
and they question the goodnessof God.
I mean, this is one of thosebiggest questions as a
theologian, as a pastor, whereis God, our good God, in the
(02:37):
midst of struggle?
Let's start there, jason.
What do you say generally,brother, yeah well, he's there.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
He is there despite the struggles and the hurts and
he cares for us.
I think somebody asked me whenI was in the book writing
process I kind of beta testedsome of the chapters as a Bible
study here at Salem First, andsomebody said who's your
audience?
And I said, well, anybody couldread it.
But then he said no, that's toogeneral, like who's your
audience?
(03:02):
And I even said maybe someonethat's kind of drifting a little
bit from God or questioningwhether God is good.
I would say to.
Well, I wouldn't say anythingat first.
I would listen, becauseunderneath that is some sort of
hurt, some sort of brokennessthat they're probably wanting to
share but maybe haven't had theopportunity.
So I would certainly ask theright questions to try to get
(03:25):
them to talk.
But then probably the simplestanswer I would give is look at
the world around you, look atthe way God formed your body,
look at the creation he has made, look at chocolate and peanut
butter together.
Like God allowed those thingsto happen for our good.
And that's what the book's aboutis just looking at the goodness
(03:47):
of God in the world around usand in His Word.
And I do pray that people thatare hurting, that are struggling
, can find comfort in God's Wordbecause it's all over.
It's all over the Psalms, it'sall over Old Testament, new
Testament that God is good, heis for us, and we won't always
see that on this side of heaven,but as long as sin is in this
(04:09):
world, we will deal with thosestruggles and hurts.
But we have comfort in a Godwho overcame those struggles for
us as well.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
That's so good.
I love how you're starting outwith kind of a first article
reality, nature of who God is.
And for those of you who arefirst article, what in the world
?
So God is creator, god isfather.
What is it about peanut butterand chocolate that is so
intoxicating?
I'm right there with you.
You give me some peanut butter,some chocolate, a top of some
ice cream.
Like that's a guilty pleasure,right there for sure.
(04:39):
But yeah, I mean say more abouthow God reveals himself to us
in creation.
I like to go just look at ourbodies, just look at our minds,
right, the heartbeat that Idon't do anything to like make
my heartbeat and oxygen comeinto my lungs and my eyes to see
and to go out into the worldthat's filled with, yeah, tough
(05:02):
stuff, hard stuff, for sure werecognize it.
But beauty and wonder, liketechnology, that I get to hang
out with my friend Jason and goout into the world that's filled
with, yeah, tough stuff, hardstuff, for sure we recognize it,
but beauty and wonder, liketechnology, that I get to hang
out with my friend Jason andtalk about Jesus.
Today there's so many goodthings that I think a lot of
times when we're down right Sinis man or woman turned in on
themselves, our heads are down,our hearts are down, rather than
our eyes up and out.
It's not like those of us thatare optimists, are unaware of
(05:27):
the tragedy, the trials of life,the cruelty, you could say even
of life.
It's just that we kind of seenow, by the Spirit's power, a
new way of being, because I'vedone hundreds of funerals, I've
sat and cried in the midst ofaddiction, in the midst of
suicide, in the midst of all thepastoral things that we walk
through, and yet I see thegoodness of God out in creation
(05:48):
and he's calling me, he'scalling me out, and this is
before we even get to Jesus.
There's just this innateunderstanding that the world is
filled with and this is a termwe probably don't, but magic
Like.
There's so many things that arejust unbelievable in the world,
right, it seems magical,mysterious, it's beautiful.
So anything more to say aboutunderstanding the goodness of
God from a first articleperspective there, jason?
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Yeah, for me, I need to go somewhere where there's
mountains and a babbling brook.
There you go.
There is something my familyover the last few years have
taken vacations to mountains.
We've gone to Colorado, we'vegone to Great Smoky Mountain
National Park, we went up toAcadia National Park last summer
.
If you give me mountains and ababbling brook, I could sit
(06:32):
there for hours pondering God'sgoodness.
But I think what you were saying, how Satan tries to isolate us.
He's always lying.
That's his native tongue, saysthe Lord.
So if we get sucked into that,it's too easy to look at the not
good aspects of even God.
You question whether he's good,you're wondering if he's with
(06:53):
you.
But go for a walk.
Recognize that this morningwhen you woke up, you did not
tell your lungs start breathingready.
Go.
Our bodies, the people aroundus, family, friends, your church
these are places where God'sgoodness shines.
But you go to his word.
You're going to see it over andover again that even though
(07:16):
life is tough, life hasstruggles, god is still faithful
.
He will pull you through that.
One of the chapters in the booktalks about mentors.
Go find someone that can pullyou out when you're in that pit
of despair a little bit, and forme it's a babbling brook.
I don't need a mentor tellingme that Just get me to the
mountains and I'll be fine, yeah, amen.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
That's saying, with mentors and our need, we can't
be in the word of God or eventhink about the things of God on
our own.
The word of God is meant to beproclaimed right into our ears.
We have to hear it from someoneelse.
Every preacher needs a preacher.
you may say and maybe that's forchurch workers, maybe that's
one of the struggles becauseyou're pouring out, you're
(08:01):
giving, you're giving but you'renot receiving.
I've got so many differentfolks.
I was telling you about PastorMichael Hyden, one of our
pastors on our team before weget going.
I love I don't have to worryabout him saying anything goofy
or it being awkward or anythinglike.
He's been doing it for a while.
I was a pastor during hisvicarage year at Bethlehem and
(08:22):
now he's become like a friend.
So when he preaches or when wego on a walk in the riparian
preserve adjacent to our campushere at Gilbert, like it's a
friend, he's a mentor, he's anadvisor for me and I love
talking about Jesus with him.
Like that's like some of thebest conversations ever.
(08:44):
So I really feel.
I really feel sad, I guess, forchurch leaders and just going
straight to leadership right whofeel alone, like they don't
have mentors, prayer partnersand teammates every single day.
You've served in differentcontexts some smaller
congregations, you know.
I mean that's a, that's an easytendency Give some words of
wisdom for the wisdom, for thechurch leader at a variety of
(09:05):
different levels who may feellike they're alone.
We need mentors, jason.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
I would say three things.
I agree with you.
It's very critical to havesomebody physically that you can
talk, to go on a walk with, getyou out of that space.
For many church workers that'sdifficult to find within their
church.
I love the team ministrysetting that you're saying.
I've only served in teamministry and I thank God for the
(09:30):
teammates that I've served withbecause I do feel like I could
go to them with a struggle.
I could go to them with aproblem, but maybe go back to a
good college friend or a goodhigh school friend, somebody
that doesn't know your church oryour people that well, give
them a quick call For me.
I've also found other churchleaders that are not Lutheran,
(09:51):
like Max Lucado and Louis Giglio.
Those are guys that, whetherI'm reading or watching one of
their messages, that fills mysoul.
In the book I talk about thewriter of Hebrews.
We don't even know who that is,but the writer of Hebrews has
been a mentor to me and hedoesn't even know it.
So I feel like it should be aperson, somebody that you could
talk to, but you don't have toknow the person for them to
(10:15):
mentor your faith walk either.
The apostle Paul is a greatanother mentor for us.
So those are examples that I'veused, but I've also gone to
people that I went to collegewith that don't know anything
about my church now, or peoplethat I went to high school with
that saw me in a different timeof life and just can encourage
me, lift me up, remind me hey,you're a good friend and you're
(10:38):
going to make it through thisand God's got you.
So those are some examples Ihave, but I'm thankful to serve
in team ministry, like you,where I do have friends who are
coworkers, and that's.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
Yeah, for sure, you start out the book talking about
God is protector.
Why did you make that choice?
Speaker 1 (10:58):
That was not the original choice I had.
I started with creation andlooking at colors.
Where I wrote the majority ofthe book was on plane rides to
and from Hawaii.
My wife and I celebrated our20th wedding anniversary two
summers ago and we took a bigtrip and that was fun.
But I don't do well onairplanes so I don't sleep well.
(11:20):
I don't read a ton.
So I just started writing andthat was a lot of fun to do.
That was a lot of inspirationfor the book on those plane
rides.
But for me it was an editingthing.
So the development editor thatI worked with I had the chapters
ordered in a different way andshe said I think I want you to
start with one of your strongerones, and I'm not naive to think
(11:45):
that all of my chapters areequally strong.
So I wanted to start strong.
I liked some of the stories Itold there.
I like the dancing betweenPsalm 31 and Psalm 61 and all
those big words like refuge andfortress and strong tower, and
well, that's one of the ways wecan trust that God is good,
because he is protecting us andhe's eventually and always
(12:09):
protecting us from the evil oneand from an eternity apart from
God, so that's why I chose tostart with that one after the
development editor's suggestion.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
I love that Do you as a congregation and as a leader,
do you spend much time talkingabout kind of spiritual warfare?
Because when I think protector,I don't just think of death and
sin, especially in this day andage.
We're coming out of four weeksof a trauma series.
We started in 2025 with a bangas a faith community and then we
(12:39):
moved right into a spiritualwarfare five-week sermon series
that we're just at the tail endof.
Are you guys talking about theEphesians 6,?
We don't fight against fleshand blood, but against the
powers and principalities ofthis dark age the liar, the
accuser, the counterfeit lightbringer, satan.
Talk about the protection ofthe triune God against the
(13:00):
forces of darkness in our world.
Jason.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
It feels like that's a topic that churches need to
address more.
We have done some.
I remember I did a sermonseries where I often lead the
August kind of back to schoolone and then Tim kicks off more
of a fall kickoff in earlySeptember and we did one on.
Some of the struggle is real,but also we looked at kind of
(13:26):
the lies of Satan and how he'strying to get a foothold.
So I believe we could talkabout that more.
I think too many people thinkthe struggle that they're
experiencing is somethingcircumstantial or another person
.
The enemy is not your spouse.
The enemy is not your children.
The enemy is not your kid'steacher or coach.
(13:49):
It's probably Satan gettingunderneath and pulling at some
heartstrings and emotionalstrings that are causing you and
me to feel yuck and to feelupset and angry and sad all at
the same time about things thatare going to happen in this
world.
We will experiencedisappointment.
(14:10):
So, yeah, I wish churches wouldtalk about that more.
Experience disappointment so,yeah, I wish churches would talk
about that more.
I'm convicted, as you say that,that we probably need to throw
another series in quickly abouthow we fight against the devil's
temptations and his lies, andthat is where our struggle is.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
Yeah, we're proud.
We're proud of our Lutheranheritage and Luther.
Some of Luther's best storiescome in terms of spiritual
warfare.
I don't know if you've everheard of this one, but Luther
was very vivid, he had a, he hadquite the imagination, and he
tells one story of beingawakened in the in the later
(14:48):
nights or early morning and andhaving and I don't know if he
saw Satan or whether it was justa presence of darkness in the
room.
He's kind of uh, he could beprone toward being frozen with
fear.
I don't know if you've heardthis story and it was later on
in his life and he kind of turnsover.
I picture Luther, probably inhis fifties, you know, early
fifties, kind of a gruff old,and he looks at Satan and he
(15:09):
tells us in his Luther, uh,luther's works, you know, is
kind of table talks with some ofhis students, and then he turns
over and he goes, oh, it's justyou, and rolls over and goes
back to bed, you know.
So it's aware, but he's notlike crippled in fear, or
obviously the early Luther wascrippled in fear, the cursing,
the crushing weight of the lawand Satan's, and agreeing with
(15:32):
Satan's lies that he was definedby what he did or failed to do,
rather than by the finishedwork of Jesus.
So I think we need to spendmore time and it doesn't have to
be a sermon series per se, butjust reminding people
consistently that if you'retrying to simply make, as you
said, your brother, your sister,your spouse, the government,
(15:53):
any kind of person your enemy,you're barking up the wrong tree
right, because it is Satan whowants to steal, kill, destroy
and divide us, whisper lies intoour ears, and we need the
powerful work, the word of Jesus, to crush the lies of Satan.
And that's exactly what.
Let's go to chapter two.
You talk about Peter, and Peterhad and I love the
(16:16):
juxtaposition of Peter's storyand Judas's story, though
Judas's story is remarkablytragic Peter could have been
turned away from, away fromJesus, and yet he jumps in the
water and can't wait to get tothe risen Jesus, even post, post
denial.
So what does the story of Peterteach us about the goodness of
God there, jason?
Speaker 1 (16:43):
I refer to Peter in the book as the disciple who
often talked before he thought,or he was bold enough to say,
probably, what the others werethinking.
But what a unique picture ofhis walking ministry with Jesus,
his messing up royally invarious situations.
I can relate to Peter.
I can relate to sometimesspeaking without thinking and
going man, I wish I wouldn'thave said that.
(17:04):
So I relate well to him.
I love the story of John 21.
We're going to preach on thegospel of John all throughout
Lent this year and I get topreach that Sunday after Easter.
We're going to preach on thegospel of John all throughout
Lent this year and I get topreach that Sunday after Easter.
We're going to extend theseries and so I get to do John
21.
That's one of my favoritestories because he is so
(17:25):
passionate.
That's where I talk about himin the book.
But he's jumping into the wateras if.
What is he going to help rowthe boat in?
Like I don't, I don't know.
He just wanted to see Jesus now, and then, I'm sure, the other
disciples this is what I've toldpeople in Bible classes and
things, because God's worddoesn't say but if they're doing
all the work to get to theshore.
(17:46):
I'm sure eventually one of theother Andrew or somebody was
like you go clean up, like youleft us to do the work to get
here.
You can't just go hang out andhave breakfast with Jesus.
So you go clean up.
I love his passion.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
I do too, and I relate to him just like you do.
I love how John is the one.
This is a note that I had notlooked at.
I preached on it maybe two,three months ago or so.
No, it was in the trauma series.
We looked at Peter's storythrough his denial, so this was
like six weeks ago.
So John is the one who tellsPeter it's the Lord, there's
(18:26):
others in the boat, right.
It says there's like six whoare there, but he looks directly
at Peter and he says it's theLord and we need people, kind
friends like John and I loveJohn's details that he brings
out that the other gospels don'tnecessarily have.
But he's like no, I was the onethat looked at Peter the denier
, you could say the one whoabandoned, the one who should
have been the closest to Jesus.
And yet he's the rock, right,his confession is the rock, and
(18:47):
yet Peter needed to get.
So I don't throw Peter too farunder the bus, because I mean
John did it.
John was the one that pointedout hey, it's Jesus, and he kind
of loses his mind, his fleeingtendency.
I think it's an amygdala hijackof Peter.
He's not even thinking aboutanything else, right, he has
laser focused on getting to theLord.
How much more do we needfriends who say, in the midst of
(19:10):
your sin, your struggle, yourdenial, your disbelief, it's the
Lord, here he is in his word,in his table for you.
Anything more to say, though,about that amazing story and how
we need kind friends that pointus to Jesus.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
Well, jesus was the kind friend of Peter.
Jesus turned his life around.
Jesus healed his mother-in-law.
These are stories that maybeget glossed over, but, yeah, I
appreciate his boldness.
I love his epistles in the NewTestament.
I love his perspective.
Many people are excited aboutspending time with grandparents
(19:47):
and great-grandparents andfamily members gone before when
they get to heaven.
I'd like to spend a day or twowith Peter.
I just feel like he's got thatpassion that I desire to have.
I want to have that kind ofreckless abandon to live my life
for the Lord.
It's okay when I mess up, but Iwant to live with that reckless
abandon, like Peter.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Yeah, well, and it led him.
Peter is a leader.
Peter's a hardwired leader.
God made him a certain way.
He's bold, he can speak whenothers couldn't speak, but maybe
don't speak.
I picture the apostlespost-Pentecost even because all
(20:29):
these people want to hear about,they're talking all in these,
you could say small groups andall these different languages,
and yet Peter rises up and givesthe first sermon that draws
people Talk about the fruit ofthat message 3,000, some people
baptized.
You know, I think all theapostles, john included, are
like.
God hardwired this guy to speak.
He has the authority.
He's a Jew of Jews, in manyrespects right.
(20:51):
I mean, he's a zealot.
He understands the scripturesand yet he's very, very bold.
He would even lose his life forthe Lord.
And we need, you know, maybe wecan go down this rabbit trail a
little bit.
I don't think we recognize theunique gifts within the body of
Christ, those that are maybe theout front bold leaders and
those that are doing more behindthe scenes work.
(21:14):
It's Paul highlights this likenobody's business, right, and
you could say Peter too, callingout the royal priesthood.
But all the unique gifts weneed the bold out front leader,
that's definitely Peter.
We need the thoughtful mentor.
Not that Paul isn't acourageous proclaimer of the
gospel, but I see him as thestrategic disciple multiplier.
I see John as kind of the heartof the whole thing, the one
(21:39):
who's probably close to Maryinto her later years.
He's a disciple, he's astoryteller, john.
So we need all those types ofgifts and I think sometimes in
the body of Christ we lowercertain gifts and elevate other
gifts.
They're all equal, but we needto encourage.
It's like an orchestra, right.
We need to encourage eachperson to play their appropriate
(22:02):
part.
Anything more to say there,jason?
Speaker 1 (22:04):
Amen.
I think we need theBartholomews and the James the
Lesser just as much as thePeters and the Johns.
I love how Paul, at the end ofa lot of his letters, will
highlight people by name, andthe number of women that he
lists is phenomenal to me.
(22:25):
You don't hear about thosepeople anywhere else, but the
way he talks about them showsthey were supporting, they were
encouraging, they were caringfor him when he was in prison.
These were people that we don'tknow anything else about other
than Paul name dropped them atthe end, saying these people
(22:45):
co-labored with me for the causeof Christ.
And yeah, there's people thatare upfront leaders.
There's people that wouldprefer to be behind the scenes,
but we all have a co-laboringfor Christ aspect.
I love Luther's theology ofpriesthood of all believers, and
that's true in ourneighborhoods, that's true in
(23:06):
our workplaces, that's truewithin our own families and
extended families, and you don'thave to be pastor or church
worker or anything to be that.
So I'm thankful for that callon our lives and I'm thankful
for the Apostle Paul and otherscalling out some of the people
that we would have never heardof.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
Preach Good stuff, jason, all right, you said your
favorite chapter in the book wason colors, chapter five how do?
Colors display the goodness ofGod.
That was unique to me.
I loved it.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
Well, maybe not for someone that's super color blind
or something, but I just lovehow our world is unique with
different colors.
I've always been a fan oforange.
That's partly why the bookcover has orange on it.
And when we went to Hawaii,well, that blue orange the blue
and orange of M&Ms are two of myfavorite colors.
(23:57):
So maybe I'm a closet Broncosfan somehow.
But when we went to Hawaii,there was this tree and we saw
it all over and it was gorgeousand and I kept seeing these
orange buds and I kept takingpictures of them.
I'm like that's my new favoritetree, that's my tree.
So I just love how God hascreated animals of different
(24:22):
colors.
If you look at our eyeballs,they're different colors.
I love the different shades ofskin.
I love different colors of hair.
I love that I'm getting alittle white on my hair, like
color is just fun.
And I have a young daughterwho's turning eight soon.
Well, she still loves to colorand that's very relaxing for her
(24:43):
.
She's kind of crafty, so I lovewhat she comes up with.
Color usually makes peoplesmile and that's partly why I
like that chapter.
I liked the various things Isaw in Hawaii.
That was my first trip everover there and some of the
colors are more vibrant.
The sun sets a little morepicturesque there than other
(25:05):
places it's extraordinary.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Hawaii is unbelievable.
It's paradise.
We just went to Kauai for our20th year, just three months ago
or so, and it was unreal howthe vibrancy.
It's a darker green, yes, yes,and then a brighter orange than
I think you see in many placeshere in the 48 states, here in
(25:29):
the US and the chickens.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
Did you see the chickens?
Speaker 2 (25:31):
The chickens, oh yeah , there's chickens everywhere.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
You know why that happened?
Right, and they're multicolored.
I love that.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
Crazy, crazy, cool chickens.
They're just everywhere.
Do you know why that happened?
No, because of a hurricane backand the chickens just.
They got released.
And were you in Kauai?
Speaker 1 (25:58):
That was one island we didn't go to.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
So there were chickens.
There's chickens on otherislands.
I didn't know if the chickenswere just yeah, ok, so they're
everywhere.
So if you ever go to Hawaii, Igot a little tag with a chicken
that says underneath the bag tagthat says Hawaii.
So random people could ask whyin the world do you got a
chicken?
Anyway, yeah, they're colorfulchickens absolutely everywhere.
Have you ever thought aboutlike the very first thing God
(26:19):
did was was create color?
Yeah, let there be light.
Right, I love, yeah, I lovethat.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
And go ahead Just the the various aspects of creation
.
Uh, my wife told me when wewere going through the Bible
study because remember I toldyou the first chapter was going
to be creation and colors, I hadkind of a two word pairing for
each chapter.
Again, the development editorsaid that's too much, get it
down to one word.
But my wife brought up in theBible class that God used colors
(26:52):
the first three days ofcreation and then he filled
those colors days four, five andsix.
So I love that imagery, thatthe yellow and the blue and the
green.
So yeah, colors.
God is the masterful artist,he's the painter and we're the
product.
Like we get to experience itand love it.
(27:14):
And I think in the book I justchallenge people like next time
you're in the grocery store,next time you're at a church
with stained glass, like I thinkwe just kind of gloss over
these things and the beauty thatpeople can make with color and
that our God has made with coloris not something to be glossed
over.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
No, no, I'm not.
I'm not a scientist by anystretch, so this is playing
beyond, beyond my, my pay grade,but I think, like
astrophysicists and a lot oftheir, I guess, hypotheses
around the origin of everythingand we know who the author is
(27:53):
like We'll locate light as, likethe primary foundation, it's
the building block of all of ourcells.
Have you, have you heard aboutthis before?
Speaker 1 (28:02):
I haven't, but I believe it.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
I could.
I could quote some different.
I leave it in the show notesactually some different podcasts
I've listened to on this.
Again, I'm not a scientist, butwhen you break it all down,
every the flashpoint, jesus isliterally, and then you and I
are literally made of light.
Yep, love that we're, we're atour cellular level, we're, we're
(28:26):
light bringers.
It's unbelievable.
So, now that I'm bringing thisup, I got to bring up I got to
bring up the Shroud of Turin.
I've been on a Shroud of Turinkick for.
So you got to do the researchand I know we're heading into
Easter this will probably be out.
This is a book called Body ofProof.
Not that we believe the word.
The word is the biggest body ofproof but there's a number of
other and the eyewitness reports, a number of other testimonies.
(28:50):
Well, the Shroud of Turin is thereal shroud of first century
Jerusalem.
Do you know that scientistshave recently documented this?
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Jason, I've heard little about that, but you
probably know way more than me.
So keep going, brother.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Well, no, the Shroud of Turin.
I just want to bring it to thepoint of light.
There's a light point on thatshroud, which a shroud, a burial
cloth for the Jews, a verythick, well put together,
expensive garment.
And there's a flashpoint on thetop of that shroud that cannot
be reduplicated in any sort ofscientific experiment.
(29:25):
And they believe, and I believe, that it shows the flashpoint
of life, resurrected life.
Jesus was in the grave.
They say about 30 days.
It shows rigor mortis had setin.
He hadn't even come out ofrigor mortis yet.
So in the shroud his knees arekind of up.
And another interesting pointhis shoulders have been
(29:46):
dislocated because it looks inthis shroud.
If you look like his arms arereally long, it's because
they're out of joint.
But then this image comes andit's a moment of resurrection.
Another crazy point that showsall the marks.
A Roman spear in the side isshown, the 50 different marks of
the crown of thorns.
(30:07):
Not a polite instrument, it wasan instrument of torture upon
the crucified Jesus.
But then the, the biggestinteresting cause it's like a.
It's a reverse negative, it's anegative impression.
So it's like dark.
His hair looks dark but inreality, because it's a negative
, his hair is white.
(30:27):
Jason.
Oh wow, it's a fulfillment ofscripture like nuts, so this is
why the people would look at melike whoa like they had to like,
do a double take the dudes onthe road to Emmaus like they
didn't even recognize him.
He looked remarkably differentWhite hair, hair that's white.
Anyway, it all took placebecause of a flashpoint of
extreme energy shown throughlight.
(30:48):
That's mind blowing, isn't it,Jason?
I love that.
Shown through light, that'smind-blowing isn't it, jason?
Speaker 1 (30:51):
I love it, I love it.
And then he calls himself lightof the world.
He says you also meaning us arelight of the world.
I love the concept of we get toshine for him in a dark world.
I love that concept of lightand dark.
It takes us back to creation.
But that's who he is, that'swho he's called us to be and
someday we're going to see himface to face and no more shroud,
(31:12):
no more veil, no more covering.
And yeah, I love that.
Even Revelation says there's noneed for light there.
There's no street lamps needed.
There's no because he is thelight.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
Yeah, have you ever thought about the vibrancy of
colors that will be present whenJesus comes back, like just
breathtaking?
Speaker 1 (31:37):
I have tried to let my mind go there.
I share a little bit about thatin the book.
I think it's one of thequestions I ask at the end, like
have you ever imagined thecolors of heaven and what would
that be like?
Because there's some prettyamazing places here on Earth
where we get to see color.
Hawaii is one of them, butthere's others.
I'm sure people that haveventured up to see fall colors
(31:58):
in the Northeast or I'm sureother places in the world have
some pretty amazing colorsAwesome.
Those are just a glimpse ofwhat we will see.
Imagine the palette of ourpainter God in heaven.
Imagine the palette of ourpainter God in heaven.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
Yeah, for sure have you.
What's the Avatar movie thatcame out?
The blue, the blue guys.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
Remember this movie?
Yeah, I just know the ride atDisney world.
I don't know much about themovie, but so that's what I'm
talking about.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
That ride it's at the animal kingdom in Orlando.
It is the closest experience tothe new heaven and new earth
I've ever had.
Right, right, because you're inthis little.
You're in this little like, uh,motorcycle thing we're kind of
like banshee riding a bansheeand stuff and the colors that
disney brought out in that rideare the closest thing to, I
think, the new heaven and newearth that I've ever experienced
(32:46):
.
I was like you ever get thoselike holy spirit, like just the
awe and wonder.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
That's how I experience Breathtaking.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
Breathtaking, exactly so, so good.
Well, this has been.
We got a couple more questions.
I'm so pumped.
I love talking colors with you.
I don't think I've ever talkedcolors with that kind of depth
with anyone in my life, so thatwas cool.
Thanks for bringing that out.
Let's pivot to talking and thepower of words to point us to
the goodness of God, and when Ithink words, I think of people
(33:19):
need.
If you got a heartbeat, life isdiscouraging.
If you got a heartbeat, youneed encouragement.
So just talk about the power ofwords to shape the human heart
and to point us to the goodnessof Jesus.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Yeah, words matter.
I love animals, I loveinanimate objects in our world
that God has made, but theycan't speak to us, they can't
encourage our heart and mind.
So the story I tell fromscripture is Job's friends who
have every intention of comingto care for him, to sympathize
(33:47):
with him, to comfort him, andthey don't talk to him for seven
days and seven nights.
And what a missed opportunity.
And then, when they do starttalking to him, they're ripping
on him, they're saying it's yourfault, man, you did something
wrong.
So we have a unique opportunityto use words to build up, not
tear down.
And we live in a tear downworld.
We live in a elevate self.
(34:08):
Tear down.
Others judge everything.
You see, every picture, everypost, every person.
Well, I love the fact that Godhas given us tongues and vocal
boxes that can use words thatbuild up and encourage, and
we're called to do that.
It's a gift from God that wecan speak.
So let's use our words to buildup, not tear down.
(34:29):
God that we can speak, so let'suse our words to build up, not
tear down.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
What is it connected to our fallen human nature,
jason, that there's something inme it's not the Holy Spirit
this counter force that we couldsay it's satanic, demonic that
(34:55):
wants to look at other peopleand either compare myself as
better than, or put myself downas worse than, or put the worst
construction on other people'saction and the best construction
on my intention.
It's like there's thiscounterforce in me and I would
say everyone, if you're quitehonest, that is at war with the
real me in Jesus.
That needs to be, shall we say,crucified with Christ day by
day, so that I notice things andI want to speak them.
(35:19):
One of our biggest highlightsas a team.
If I could pray for one thingfor staff teams, and whether
it's you as a pastor of a smallchurch with your elders,
whatever go on retreat at leasta couple times a year.
We do it quarterly, go havefood, fellowship, but then
encouragement.
We start off every staffretreat with basically something
(35:41):
like this I praise Jesus thatyou're on the team, because dot,
dot, dot and you could.
There's no shortage of ways wecan kind of set people up to
speak words of encouragement andevery single time we do that,
there are people that startcrying because of joy that
people recognize them, you know,we don't hear it enough.
(36:03):
We don't hear it enough.
People light up.
It's like the little kid wethink that you want.
Everybody wants to encourage alittle five-year-old little
Tommy or Timmy or whatever youknow.
Look at that cute little guygoing to do his thing.
We grew up.
The 55-year-old needsencouragement and love, you know
, and recognition that somebodyactually sees what they're doing
and what you're doing isactually making a difference.
(36:24):
Sometimes I'm going to go andthis isn't a political podcast
that Tim and I try to stay outof the LCMS culture.
You and I are both in theLutheran Church Missouri Synod,
but sometimes I wonder like isour, all of our meetings at
every level in our synodstarting out with words of love
and care and respect for oneanother scene?
What would it, what would itlook like if every district
(36:47):
president I know this is hard Ifevery district president, all
of our unique context, startedout with a small group of other
district presidents in theirregion or whatever, saying I'm
so grateful.
We may disagree on a couple ofthings, whatever we're working
it out, but I'm so grateful Isee your district working toward
this end.
That would be a uniting force.
Encouragement brings courageand it unites.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
So let's start out with way more encouraging
conversations Go ahead.
Go ahead, Jason.
People would be flocking to ourchurches if that's how churches
and leaders acted towards oneanother.
So yeah, I feel like thoseactivities where you speak words
is amazing.
I've also done them.
Where you write them, you knoweverybody's name is on a piece
of paper.
People will keep those for along, long time, because
(37:32):
sometimes on our worst of days,we just need to be reminded
somebody believes in me,somebody cares in me, somebody
sees something in me that Ican't see in myself right now.
So, yeah, I'm with you that I'ma big fan of starting meetings
or gatherings with.
Hey, give me some joy, tell mesomething amazing, not about me,
not about, but just.
(37:53):
Let's share positive, let's usewords that build, and I'm with
you.
I think lots of people would bevery attracted to that and
would feel built up, not just onthe defensive, like how can I
battle today against thesepeople?
Nope, we're on the same team.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
Facts.
Well, what it does, jason, isit moves us.
If you enter into conversationand you accuse, condemn, divide,
it immediately moves a humanbrain to fight or flight or
freeze or fawn right.
So the best way to get us tousing our strategic prefrontal
cortex to work throughinevitable struggles is to start
(38:34):
with encouragement, becausethen in our staff retreats we're
always talking about stuff thatcould be improved.
We're never.
We're never there, right.
So?
But the foundation is love andcare.
As we talk about the struggle, Iknow I just heard that leader
give me words of encouragement.
So, as we talk about this andmaybe in my department or
something that I'm kind ofresponsible for and I may have,
(38:56):
I may be prone toward guilt orshame, no, no, no, we're just
going to talk about it.
We're all going to put ourheads together, our hearts
together, to work toward thatthing.
It it removes the stigma likeyou're, you're bad.
Human beings at their base wantto know am I seen, am I loved,
am I known, am I cared for?
And is this a safe?
(39:18):
You talk about protection.
Is this a safe place for us totalk about difficult things?
That is the leader's number oneresponsibility.
It's to create, you could sayrelational safety, so that
inevitable things that aredifficult can be discussed and
not torn, tearing us apart,becoming more fractured in all
of our different conversations.
I just get pumped even talkingabout this right now, because
(39:39):
encouragement is the fuel formission.
Anything more to say on that,jason?
Speaker 1 (39:45):
Well, god's word says speak the truth in love.
So it doesn't just say speakthe truth and it doesn't just
say speak love all the time.
There has to be the balance.
But I love that concept ofrelational capital.
You earn the right to be ableto talk about the hard things
with people when you've shownthem, but I still value you, I
care for you, and not just, butI still.
(40:06):
You've started with that.
You've laid a differentfoundation to be able to say and
now how can we grow and how canwe do it together?
Because, remember, I stillvalue you, believe in you, think
you're an amazing, giftedperson in that role.
So, yeah, let's lay a differentfoundation that doesn't spin
our heads around into that fightor flight.
(40:26):
I love that.
Maybe you should write a book,tim.
I love that.
Maybe you should write a book,tim.
Speaker 2 (40:29):
That's what I think, Jason.
No.
Speaker 1 (40:31):
Well, you already wrote it, you already wrote it
and obviously it's written down.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
It's the word of God, it's God.
You have every reason to be indespair, nihilistic, hedonistic,
et cetera, and yet the God ofthe universe has called you by
name, right?
He said this is my beloved sonor daughter and you.
I am well pleased, just like hegave.
If Jesus needed encouragementfrom the father, how much more
so do we need encouragement?
So it is the fuel for ourmission.
(40:55):
And I just got to say thisJason, you're an awesome human.
I know you're a pastor,whatever.
You're just a delightful human.
This has been so fun.
Last question, though what isthe role of rest?
Chapter 10, you talk about restand understanding the goodness
of God you talk about rest andunderstanding the goodness of
God.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
Well, I don't know how many seasons in your life
you've had where you can tellyou're under rested right.
There's just not enough going.
Just this past week we wereworking on a Lenten devotion
book that our staff creates andI was up way too late editing
those way too late in the nightand I just wasn't myself.
I wasn't sharp the next day.
Man, god gave us a body.
(41:36):
That's pretty amazing, but itdoes have to shut down a little
bit at nighttime or if you'reworking nights during the day,
that's a beautiful thing.
But then I couple that withit's not just sleep more, it's
turn your mind back to the Lord.
Don't just focus so much ontasks and then rest in him.
Come to me all you who areweary and burdened.
(41:56):
That's a verse I use, but thenI also connect it to Jesus
calling the disciples away.
Come by yourselves with me fora little while so that we can
rest, and then they feed the5,000.
Like they didn't get a lot ofrest, but Jesus knew they needed
it and he needed it.
He went off by himself to pray,sometimes early in the morning,
(42:17):
but he slept.
So did the disciples.
So for me it's probably acombination of how's your
sleeping going and are youresting in the Lord?
Are you spending intentionaltime praying, reading his word
being filled up.
Worship music's big for me,just soaking in God's presence
(42:41):
and can you put the otherworries and daily work tasks
aside for just a little bit tojust rest in who he is, in his
promises, and someday we'regoing to rest for all eternity
with him.
And that's the premise of thebook.
Man, he's good.
He's given us lots of thingsthat we can look around our
world and go.
(43:02):
Man, god's good, and it's notvery shocking.
So I'm just trying to redeemthe phrase.
Let's use the phrase in adifferent way.
How?
Speaker 2 (43:13):
to redeem the phrase.
Let's use the phrase in adifferent way.
We work from rest, right.
And if we go the other wayaround we work to rest, we're
not going to be, we're going tobe taxed and it's going to be
hard and we're going to burn outeventually.
And I would say one other thing.
I think sometimes our systemsthis is a podcast of Unite
Leadership Collective Maybesometimes our systems for work
(43:37):
and I would, managing our work,managing our tasks need to get
addressed.
So I'm a strong fan.
If you're not using planningcenter task manager, we use
Asana as a task manager.
The tasks are always going tobe there.
I have hundreds of tasks thatare for tomorrow or a week from
(43:58):
now.
I think Jesus, especially withthe chaotic, pinging world that
we live in constant distractionssocial media you know we're
always getting prone to alwaysbeing on.
I think Jesus would say youneed a good task management
system, son.
I don't know.
I think he would.
I think the Holy Spirit wouldtell us today, with all the
(44:20):
distractions, like you need tohave a day, you need to have a
rhythm, you need to have a way,you need to invite other people
into your task, because this istoo heavy.
This is too heavy for you.
You're not meant to be that onall the time People have asked
me.
I was just at the seminaryalumni basketball game, which
was super, super fun.
(44:40):
Jason had a really great-.
Speaker 1 (44:41):
Did you dunk?
That's the question, Tim.
Did you dunk?
Speaker 2 (44:43):
I'm six foot dude and I have a 10-.
I saw you play football.
Speaker 1 (44:48):
I know you're an athlete.
I'm a 10-inch vert right now.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
man Back in the day I could come close, I could dunk
a volley.
My hands are small.
I could dunk a volleyball backin the day, but not today,
that's for sure.
I keep my feet firmly on theground because I don't want to
roll an ankle or pull somethinggoofy.
It's pretty funny some studentsafterwards and they kind of ask
(45:11):
the question you know, how doyou have time to do podcasts and
do things like this?
It's because I've asked for alot of help and I have a system
to get things done at theappropriate time.
Each day has enough things to do, you know, and for me in this
season, just kind of behind thescenes a little bit, my helper
Dawn, she partners with me andshe cares for me and is like
analyzing rhythms of work andrest and play and family, and
(45:36):
here's something for me that'shuge.
I'd get your take.
You got kids, like the kidsschedules, all their different
things, right, that has to go onmy calendar first before
anything else, and if anythingelse was put on the calendar
before their athletic stuff orwhatever their events and stuff
like, I don't get that time back.
So I got to, I have to be thereand I also have time to coach
(45:56):
high school football and things.
It's just there's been adiscipline that's been
established over time, and ithas to do with systems that have
been set up so that I can workfrom rest, not work to rest.
Anything more to say there,jason.
Speaker 1 (46:15):
The hardest part, I think, of ministry is that it's
never done right.
Ministry is not a task that youcan check off and there's
always more work today, tomorrowand into the future.
So I'm with you.
I have tried very hard tocreate boundaries where I know I
will be a more effective leaderfor Jesus if my marriage is
good and my kids know that I ampresent and love them.
That doesn't mean I'm going tobe at everything.
But, man, I'm going to try,because I could still do more
(46:39):
work later in the night whenthey go to bed.
I can still find a way to dosome tasks on my day off.
But I love how you said you'renot going to get that time back.
So there's got to be balance inthat.
It can't be.
Forget my job.
I'm only a family guy.
Well then, you shouldn't bepaid.
But we got to find the balance.
So I I love that.
(47:00):
Uh, god calls us to rest, godcalls us to find rhythms and
let's figure out how to do thatwhere there's a little balance
between family and work,especially if we're in ministry
together.
That where there's a littlebalance between family and work,
especially if we're in ministrytogether.
But it's a tough thing whenministry is never done and
(47:20):
there's always more needs.
So I'm in that struggle withyou and trying to figure it out,
but I'm also trying to care formy family, my wife and my own
body as well, because you knowwhat?
We're not getting younger Tim.
These things are true, verytrue.
How old are your kids?
I have twin boys that turned 13in a couple months.
They're in seventh grade, andthen my daughter turns eight
this week.
She's in second grade.
Speaker 2 (47:41):
Yeah, that's kind of a sweet spot.
I got three in high school.
Speaker 1 (47:44):
Yeah, you're.
You're in a different stagethan me.
My kids love being home, and Iknow that might change someday,
but they would prefer to be homeand you drive them to school.
I drive them to school.
Our school is right on campushere, so I get that sweet time
with them and then, depending onpractices and whatnot, one of
us is driving them home.
Speaker 2 (48:05):
That's so cool.
Speaker 1 (48:06):
Yeah, I enjoy it.
Speaker 2 (48:07):
I don't drive anybody to school anymore.
Last year my daughter goes areyou going to miss me as you go
into?
I was like, well, yeah, I'vereally enjoyed these, these
sweet times with her.
And uh, are you, are you ableto get good time to take care of
yourself to start the morning?
Speaker 1 (48:26):
So I'm a late night owl, so I'm mostly caring for my
kids and making sure I get ashower in the morning, so to me,
the time that I can have formyself is more after they go to
bed or connecting with my wifeor whatever.
So I need to do a little moreexercise than I do.
I feel like I'm in decentphysical health, but I had back
(48:48):
surgery around Thanksgiving time, so I'm trying to figure out
what life is like in my 40s now,now that body parts aren't
quite doing what I wish theywould when they were 25 or
whatever did you have like aspinal thing or something like?
uh, it was a discectomy, so theytook out a portion of my disc
because it was all on top of mynerves and causing all sorts of
(49:09):
issues like lower lower back.
Yes, sir, I played a lot ofsports growing up and I think
I've even played a lot of sportsin my adulthood and probably
think that I was 22 again andI'm just not.
So I think my days of playingtons and tons of sports are over
, but it's okay.
Did the surgery help alleviate?
Oh, yeah, yeah, it's huge.
(49:30):
It was well done and I'mthankful I had it.
Speaker 2 (49:33):
Praise Jesus, that's amazing.
My goal is to never go underthe knife, and I say that having
had my appendix removed, whichis a funny little thing.
I think that little guy doessomething.
I don't know exactly what itdoes, but I had that removed,
we'll see.
I'll probably go under theknife sometime in my life, like
like you did.
It's amazing that we gotdoctors and nurses that can take
(49:55):
care of us when our bodiesbreak down, to elongate health
and, uh, vitality.
That's, that's beautiful, bro.
So, this has been, this has beengreat.
Uh, I will say one thing.
The Holy spirit put this on myheart.
I don't know if it was the Holyperiod or just my goofy brain,
but yeah, physical, the more wecan, the more we can do some
sort of resistance training.
The older we get, the sharperwe're going to be mentally.
Speaker 1 (50:18):
I love that.
I love that it used to becrossword puzzles.
What's that?
It used to be crossword puzzleswas the way to keep your mind
sharp.
But I'm with you.
Let's, let's do some resistancestuff.
Speaker 2 (50:31):
Let's go for walks, let's, let's do some walks, do
air squats air lunges.
I like scissor squats, which isa little bit more intense.
I got a whole regimen that I dowhen I'm in hotels and things,
and it's mostly plyometric body,but I my goal physically is a
sweat every single day.
So, um, yeah, whatever it takesto get some sort of a sweat on,
uh, that's good, good for mybrain.
(50:52):
Well, this has been awesome.
You need to pick up.
Listener of the Book Good Lord,the not so shocking look at the
goodness of God by Pastor JasonSchleicher, your friend and
ambassador of Christ, carryinghis love and his light out into
the world.
Speaker 1 (51:08):
So people can find this Amazon anywhere books are
sold and his light out into theworld so people can find this
Amazon anywhere books are sold.
I don't know if it's on Amazonyet, but probably the best way
is through this website that Icreated, goodlordbookcom, and if
they have questions it'sjasonatgoodlordbookcom, so I
would love to connect withpeople there.
Speaker 2 (51:24):
There you go.
It's a good day.
Go make it a great day.
Please like, subscribe, commentwherever it is you're taking in
these podcasts I hope thispodcast.
I have Jesus joy juice flowingthrough me right now Just
getting to talk to you, man.
This was so much fun and theLord is out.
Here's your invitation listener, encourage someone today, speak
words of love and life overthem.
(51:46):
Let them know the goodness ofGod in your words today.
It's a good day.
Go make it a great day.
You're the man, jason.
Thanks bud.
Speaker 1 (51:52):
Thanks Tim.
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