October 23, 2024 • 61 mins
What if your local church could rise above political divides and embrace every voice? Join us for a compelling conversation with Pastor Matt Cario, a visionary from Concordia University, Nebraska, who is actively championing reformation within the Lutheran Church. Pastor Cario shares his insightful perspectives on nurturing younger leaders and advocating for a less pastor-centric approach in church communities. By placing emphasis on unity, trust, and inclusivity, he envisions a future where the church becomes a beacon of hope and dialogue in a divided world.
Discover how gentleness and courage can transform leadership, as inspired by Jesus' teachings and the legacy of Martin Luther's Reformation. We delve into the quiet strength that gentleness offers leaders today, exploring the idea of "two kingdoms" and how Christians can navigate both spiritual and worldly realms. Our discussion with Pastor Cario reveals the importance of engaging in courageous conversations and the role of church and government leaders in executing justice, all while learning from Luther's multifaceted legacy.
Amidst the challenges of a postmodern culture, Pastor Cario and I discuss the evolving mission of the church and the importance of fostering authentic, truth-centered environments for younger generations. By focusing on humility, empathy, and genuine community interactions, we emphasize the church's potential to stay relevant and impactful. Tune in to learn about the significance of reformation, the nurturing of future leaders, and how living out the Gospel can unite and transform faith communities.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the American Reformation podcast,
tim Allman.
Here Today I get the privilegeof hanging out with a classmate
of mine from Concordia, nebraska, back in 2004.
This is Pastor Matt Cario.
We're celebrating 20 years,graduating.
I don't know, are we having areunion or something like that
coming up, matt?
I don't know if I've even seenanything like that.
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
I went back like a year ago for a visit and, oh,
it's so different.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
It's so different.
Well, I'm going to be goingback for a visit, probably with
my son in the next year, to seeif he wants to be a bulldog,
play football there and all thatkind of stuff.
So it's good to be a bulldog.
More than that, it's better tobe a Jesus follower who's been
blessed to be in the LutheranChurch of Missouri Synod.
This conversation is not alwaysincluding folks in the LCMS,
but today we're talking aboutdiscipleship, deep prayers for
(00:50):
unity and trust within thechurch and our opening
conversation.
Just a little more about Matt.
He's a pastor at Our SaviorLutheran Church in Tacoma,
washington.
He's been there eight years.
He's approaching 20 years ofmarriage to his wife, meredith,
and they have two young girls,ninth grader and a sixth grader
and life is so, so good at OurSavior with Pastor Matt and a
(01:13):
shout out too to Pastor TimBayer and their partnership in
the gospel there and the wholeteam at Our Savior.
This is going to be a funconversation.
So the opening question forAmerican Reformation, matt, how
are you praying for, asLutherans?
Right, reformation's a big dealin our vocabulary.
How are you praying forReformation in the American
Christian church?
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Ah, man, you know what I pray for a lot is the
local church.
I'm just a local church guy.
Everybody has something they'rereally passionate about and
they're like this is what God iscalling me to, and we need
people called to everything, butI love the local church,
(01:52):
particularly the church that I'mcalled to.
That is something I'm alwayslooking to, to pray for all the
local churches, because that'swhere God does so much work in
people's lives.
I pray for raising up andmaking space with younger
leaders.
You mentioned, right, 20 years.
(02:13):
We're in that middle career arcin our lives and so really
praying about that, we're aboutthe younger leaders.
And who are we raising up?
How is God working in theirlives, and it's really cool to
(02:33):
see how they just love Jesus,but they see him through some
different lenses that are reallybeneficial for our church and
the future and for ourcommunities.
And you know, the last thing Ipray for is I and this is
probably more, you know, I guessit could be all churches, but
specifically in our context andthe Lutheran church becoming
(02:57):
less pastor-centric, and I don'tmean that like let's demote
pastors, but I would love if wetalked about all the different
ways you can serve the Lord more, because there's so many needs
and there's so many differenttypes of people in our churches
(03:17):
that God is calling to do things, and the more we can make
avenues for that, I think thatjust is.
It's healthy for the body.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Yeah, it's absolutely necessary for the body.
So tell me, when you say thoseyoung lenses, you're interacting
with younger people not just asa dad, but as a discipleship
pastor.
What are some of those youngerlenses as a Jesus follower that
those of us who are in themiddle or older stages of life
should pay attention to?
Speaker 2 (03:47):
You know, every culture shift that happens
across generations, we tend tofocus on the negatives of that.
I feel like that seems to bethe way in our culture currently
the way we evaluate thingsfirst is negative first, but
(04:11):
there's also positives to that.
I mean.
One example, right.
So our kids have kind of grownup in a generation of where
every voice matters, right, likeit doesn't matter what your
view is.
Every voice matters, right,like it doesn't matter what your
view is.
Every voice matters.
And one of the cool, reallybeneficial lenses of that with
the gospel is that our kids allbelieve they have a voice and
(04:35):
they all believe it matters.
And if their voice is for Jesus, like, it matters and they're
not afraid to share it and theirfriends and their peers are not
against it.
I think growing up in the 80s,90s, there was definitely a
little more of certain voicesmatter more than others.
(04:56):
And if you didn't have one ofthose certain perspectives or
lenses, man, you know there wassome.
There was some different typeof pressure on that, but I just
see that though, man, like inour kids, like it's, it's really
cool to watch.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
No, it really.
It really is the church.
The church is playing above.
I don't know why my because ofthe season we're in, probably
the the political climate inwhich we we live in, the church
plays above the political fray.
Today we set our minds andhearts on Christ, who reigns
(05:33):
above.
And when the rhetoric in culturegets so kind of toxic, divisive
and I don't care on whatextreme, whether it's left or
right, and and the name calling,et cetera, I think a lot of our
younger sensitive leaders arejust like.
There has to be a better.
I mean, this is what I thinkthere has to be a better way to
speak truth to power and toreceive correction, and it's the
(05:58):
Jesus way which is centered inrelationship, a depth of trust
that should flow from the localchurch.
I think the local church andhopefully catalyzed by a lot of
our younger leaders growing up,the local church can have a
unifying impact.
Today we talk about unity onthis, just holding society in
general together, creating roomfor disagreeing agreeably and
(06:20):
just discourse in general, likepositing different ideas and
weighing, you know, thephilosopher's heart, which is, I
think we kind of come under.
I think of the Athenian model,right, I mean creating space to
have differing ideas, and do wehave any of those types of
places in culture today?
And I don't see them, otherthan the church potentially
(06:44):
created space for that rightBecause it's centered in our
identity in Jesus.
Like then we can, it's game onright and so, yeah, any thoughts
there, matt?
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Yeah, matt.
Well, you talk about the Jesusway.
I mean, you know, tim Kellerreally popularized that a lot
with the third way and kind ofthat.
What Jesus does constantlyright, he is, he's not, he never
takes sides.
Jesus makes a way and I thinkit's such a great opportunity
for the church.
(07:14):
I actually think, looking backat COVID, that was a great
opportunity for the church tostart and to say we're going to
take the Jesus way and it'sprobably not one of the other 97
opinions about what we shoulddo, but Jesus and what's really
(07:35):
significant about that, liketheologically, is if Jesus is
the way, the truth and the lifeas he says he is the way, the
truth and the life as he says heis, then he has to be the one
that makes a way for all to him.
Right, it's not gonna, it can'tjust be.
Here is this narrow way that wesee and we agree upon.
And the cool thing about Jesusis I'm not the same person.
(08:01):
I was a year ago or three yearsago or five years ago or 10
years ago, and if I met me 10years ago, there's things I'd be
like that's kind of cringy or Idon't know that.
I agree with that, but Jesus isthere with us on that lifelong
journey, the more that we canlive that out and communicate
(08:23):
that.
That is just like gospel foryour soul over a lifetime.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Yeah, no, absolutely Jesus.
I like the third way.
And this is just where healthyhuman thriving takes place.
I've just started talking forthe first time, and this morning
.
So here we go.
It is.
It is courage, it's centered incourage.
I've just been listening andmoving my body all morning and
(08:53):
reading and okay, here we go,get the lips going.
It takes courage on the onehand, uh, but not, not coward,
you're not, not, notoverwhelmingly arrogance, right?
Speaker 2 (09:04):
so I um, you stopped and that's all right.
(09:34):
You know what everybody?
Tim's had a long morning.
It's really taken a toll on himand he'll be back at some point
.
So just stay tuned and enjoythe silence.
Oh man, thank you.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Oh man, oh man.
Gee, that was the weirdestthing, matt, uh what happened my
entire system just shut downand restarted.
Wow, I even restarted mycomputer, like last week.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Anyway, whatever, you are actually still running,
you're just overwhelming it Wayto go.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
I don't think that was it at all.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
I think it was the Holy.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Spirit saying you got to start again here, so anyway,
it's actually running.
So, Adam, you can start hereand I'm just going to talk about
the middle way really quick andthen turn it back to you.
So I love that, matt, themiddle way.
The middle way is thecombination between courage not
(11:53):
arrogance and then humility,which leads us into team.
I've done a lot of listening tosome social scientists and
actually have done somebehavioral analysis myself, and
we need the balance ofaggressive and passive traits at
the same time.
This is a Harrison behavioralassessment tool that I've used
(12:13):
and a lot of times in the church.
We're overly passive and pastorscan be overly passive, and
that's actually unattractive.
That's seen by many as kind ofweak.
We don't have a voice.
But you can also go to theother extreme and become
narcissistic, and we obviouslydon't want to live there either.
So can we as the people of Godand this is individually and
(12:35):
collectively present thishealthy, confident, courageous
voice that's seated with great,great humility, with arms open
wide to people who may havediffering views and be at
different places, on theirrespective journey with one
another and with God.
Any thoughts about that?
That way, that kind of thirdway that Keller talks about?
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Yeah Well, you, what you described about you know,
needing courage but also needing, like, a quiet confidence.
With that, we actually havethat in the Holy Spirit that
lives in us.
I mean this is what gentlenessis and the fruit of the spirit
and it's gentleness is just,it's that, it's that strength
(13:18):
that you don't have to flexabout, it's knowing, it's having
that confidence of knowing thatJesus does reign, that I don't
need to worry about some ofthese big things, knowing that
God is powerful, knowing that hecan be trusted, and knowing it
will work out, but not having toforce it, not having to make it
(13:43):
always happen.
And so I just, you know,pressing into for me like that
was something you know, learningabout gentleness as a leader
and as a Jesus follower wasreally.
It gave language to thatfeeling of how do I go in this
and it's like, oh, that makessense.
(14:03):
It's that quiet strength, it'sthat restrained, controlled
strength.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Yeah Well, that was the way of Jesus, right, the God
who had every right to choosethe power position and yet
humble himself to the point ofdeath and a cross.
And out of that quietconfidence he drew by the
Spirit's power and started thegreatest movement the world has
(14:30):
ever known in the local church.
People who were willing tocourageously speak what was true
, as they had come to know it inthe person and work of Jesus,
and live out then the way ofJesus with arms open wide,
courageously, even going totheir deaths on behalf of the
cause of Jesus.
Like we need courageously, evengoing to their deaths on behalf
of the cause of Jesus.
We need that sort of confidenceand humility, that gentleness
(14:51):
today and what it does to thehuman brain too talking just
brain science is it allows us tothink about what we're going to
say before we say it and notget triggered one way or another
to keep our head about us, tospeak the way of Jesus.
As you look at a guy like MartinLuther let's talk about Luther
(15:13):
a bit.
Whenever you hear the wordreformation you think if you've
got any kind of church historybackground, you think of Martin
Luther, and I think he kind ofhad that.
People may not call him gentleall the time, that may not be
the adjective that's used forLuther all the time, but he had
the ability to write clearly, tospeak clearly and to draw
people together and to give thewider church the courage to
(15:35):
speak truth to power, truth toRome, truth to works,
righteousness, etc.
So what parts of Luther'sReformation story do you think
we need to double down on today?
Matt?
Speaker 2 (15:46):
So what parts of Luther's Reformation story do
you think we need to double downon today?
Matt oh man, number twokingdoms.
So just understanding what isGod's kingdom and how do we live
with a foot in that and a footin the worldly kingdom, I think
that brings it, just bringsclarity to like what we need to
focus on, what we need to haveconfidence in and what we can
(16:08):
trust and and also what we, whatwe should worry about.
You know I know some I say weknow Jesus speaks of that, but
you know it does help, kind ofhelp manage our where we focus
(16:30):
on someone.
That and then our neighbor.
I think we, if we focus on ourneighbors and I justify
neighbors is whoever's along ourway, whoever we're alongside in
life but just having that longfocus on our neighbors, I you
(16:50):
know it's something we'repersonally just passionate about
in our house, that we have tobe part of our neighbors' lives
and it doesn't always mean huh,no, yeah, keep going, keep going
.
It doesn't always mean yeah, no,it's really important, and I
(17:12):
think for leaders it just itbecomes one of those activities
or choices that gives you afoundation, Like it just keeps
you grounded in reality.
Like it just keeps you groundedin reality and it's amazing
(17:32):
what God just does through thattime and time again.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Well, let's merge both of those.
If we're connected to ourneighbor, our neighbor may have
a different understanding,different worldview, different
political allegiances etc.
And do we meet them as aneighbor and then do we develop
conversations, a relationship oftrust, so that we can, where
there may be opportunities tolearn and grow, we can have the
(17:53):
courageous conversation.
You talk about two kingdoms,though.
For those that maybe have notheard of Luther's two kingdoms,
what is like a, a confirmationlevel, we'll go one to 202 kind
of definition of two kingdoms.
Matt, how does it apply to yourwork as a pastor?
Speaker 2 (18:11):
Well, I mean, essentially it's right.
It's just that there's akingdom of God that is active
and reigning Ever since Jesusdies on the cross.
It's just expanding, and thatis the true kingdom.
That is the real kingdom.
There's the kingdoms of theworld, and it's always changing
(18:36):
right.
There's always a fight overwho's in charge of the kingdom
of the world, and yet, untilJesus returns, we are in both
kingdoms.
We live simultaneously, and soit's what Paul talks about when
he says right, like you know,we're aliens here.
We are not natives in that waythat we belong to the Lord, we
(19:01):
belong to the kingdom of heaven.
Yet we live in this world, andit helps us keep that focus a
little bit of what we shouldcare most about.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
How does God work, mainly in the kingdoms of this
world?
How does he execute his justice?
And it's through governmentright.
It's through good government,and government that promotes the
office of mother and father,government that rewards the good
right According to laws bothwritten and on our hearts, and
(19:35):
it punishes the evil.
What is the role, though, ofleaders today?
I think this is one of theconfusing and challenging
opportunities for us as leadersin the church.
Luther did not shy away fromtalking against government, and
he actually said some things on,and this is not the shining
Luther moment on the Jews andtheir lies.
He was actually calling forgovernment to kind of move in a
(20:00):
controlling direction in thatregard, and we don't need to go
deep there.
That's one of kind of the blackeyes, I think, in Lutheranism
today, but we still have a rolein speaking.
If the government is notsupporting adequately the office
of mother and father, we needto speak, the church needs to
speak Now.
The way we speak is obviouslyseasoned with love and clarity,
(20:21):
but it better be courageous.
So any thoughts about how thechurch and even leaders, pastors
, speak, because and I'm justspeaking from experience right
now I get pulled in a number ofdifferent directions as it
relates to this, and I can'tspeak about candidates, but I
can speak about topics when theBible speaks very, very clearly.
(20:41):
We have to speak right, so anyany other thoughts there, matt?
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Yeah, I think that, uh, I think you're you kind of
hit it on the head there, man.
It's speaking about topics, um,that the Bible clearly speaks
to is, uh, it's we have to do it, um, and we should do it.
I mean, we, we are, we arelovers of truth, right, we want
(21:07):
to share the truth, and so Ithink that those are areas that
we can speak in.
So the challenge, I think, forthe church is often, I think,
people come to pastors like you,right, like you have people
(21:29):
that email you and say, hey, weneed to do this petition.
Hey, we need to talk about thisfrom the pulpit.
Hey, we need a view on this.
I think it's something thatevery Christian needs to spend a
lot more time in of how do Ispeak about that, and not just
(21:50):
well, here's what my pastor saidand that's what I say.
I think the wrestling of how doI speak truth in challenging
contexts is an important processfor Christians to wrestle
through, for Christians towrestle through, and that
changes the way they talk toothers about it.
It helps it be well-reasoned,it personalizes it so that it's
(22:14):
contextual, and that's whenthat's a welcome conversation,
more so than hey, check out thistwo-minute sermon clip that my
pastor rips on this, or you?
Speaker 1 (22:28):
know, the reason I'm laughing is I had a lady,
precious lady, come up and saythis happens like every week.
You got to listen to thispastor talk about this topic and
hopefully that can inspire youknow.
So, okay, that's all right.
But I think you're exactlyright Getting down to personal
responsibility, elevating thepriesthood, like you are all.
(22:49):
First, peter, right, you areall a priest.
You're called to bring light todark places.
This is the role of the church.
Yes, leaders must speak tomodel kind of not only what we
say but how we can say it.
But then the Holy Spirit fillsall of the baptized and so, um,
if you, I'd love to have this,I'd love to have people like
beating down my door to set upspaces to talk about the two
(23:12):
kingdoms.
We actually did a, a faith andpolitics two week kind of
seminar class where we talkedabout the two kingdoms, talked
about good public discourse,talked about the role of the
government and the church's roleand God's role, kind of
overseeing both the office ofthe church and the role of
(23:32):
government in this culture, andpeople found that helpful.
My struggle is I think we livein echo chambers Because there's
a lot of people in the middlethat are looking at it like wow,
you really are passionate aboutthat topic.
Wow, you're really passionate.
They're like.
They're like pull them.
(23:53):
Most people are right in themiddle, like saying I would just
like to go about my life, youknow.
But could they have a postureof curiosity so that they're if?
If they're in the middle, theyhave the curiosity to say what
does God's word say about thisand how should I speak about
what God's word says about this?
Anything more there, matt?
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Well, I mean, most people don't live on the edges
right.
Most people don't have all oftheir views represented by a
commentary voice out there.
People are complicated.
I mean we just are.
(24:36):
We have all sorts of beliefsand experiences in our country
and, as people that areconflicting, like they don't,
you know, seem like they shouldgo together.
But they do because should gotogether, but they do because,
apart from Christ, we experiencethe brokenness of sin in our
lives and around us and it canbe disorienting in that, and so
having healthy discourse, Ithink, is so significant.
(25:00):
You know, there's a while back,man, I heard.
You know, like you listen to apodcast and like you just go
through it but you don't reallyremember anything.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
But I heard a lot of people have had that experience
on this one, but nonetheless,yeah they already turned out.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
They missed that.
They don't even get to thatcomment today.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
But tell me about your experience with that,
though?
Speaker 2 (25:23):
Yeah, no man today, but, um, tell me about your
experience with that though.
Yeah, no man, I there.
I forget the woman's name, butshe was, um, she was sharing,
and she said you know, my nobodythat has a different view than
me is ever going to change theirmind unless I spend time with
them.
It just won't.
It's a long-term relationship,like you got to, and it's just
(25:45):
that reminder, like in politicsand faith and life, and you know
neighborhood business.
Nobody's going to change theirmind unless you spend time with
them.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Yeah, and what can we actually control when it gets
right down to it?
We're going to land this plane,but you should vote, you should
be a good citizen, but thenwhat can you ultimately control?
It's your family.
It's working out into yourfriend group, it's working to be
a wonderful neighbor.
That's substantial.
(26:19):
If everybody just focused onwhat is within our spheres of
influence, right, that we canactually influence, how much
better and we work toward itselflessly, sacrificially how
much better would the witness ofthe church be and I have to say
this to my congregationPresident Trump gets elected.
He's not the Savior.
We're still going to have a lotof struggles in the United
(26:41):
States and just in the humanexperience, there is one Savior.
His name is Jesus and he's gota mission to get all of his kids
back and the audacity that hewants to use the local church
word and sacrament people be inthe hands and feet of Jesus to
to get his kids back, to elevatethem above Metanoia, where
Christ is like that's, that's it, that's it, no, no one.
Kingdoms rise, kingdoms fall.
(27:02):
Could the United States ofAmerica fall because of voting
and bad choices we make?
Could the blessing of God, ifyou will kind of move away and
when we talk blessing right, Ithink maybe we've been focused
on the idols of this age, ourremarkable affluence in the
United States of America andwe've made gods out of so many
(27:22):
different things.
Like this is where pastors needto be speaking.
If a certain group gets elected, like it could actually be the
death of many people spirituallyright who say, oh, now that's
it.
No, we need a collectiverepentance to take place
throughout the church to smashthe idols of this age.
(27:46):
I was reading through sorry tojust go on a little rant here,
but I was reading through 1 and2 Kings.
Just recently this guy wasaround.
He had a reign but he was anevil king.
He had lots of idols, theresidual damage in the kingdom,
be it Israel or Judah, it wasgood, it was bad, et cetera.
Kingdoms rise, kingdoms fall.
The word of the Lord standsforever.
(28:07):
Like we have to keep peoplefocused on the main thing
because we are prone to drift.
We're drifters as human beingsand idle factory makers.
So any responses to that as weclose, kind of the two kingdom
conversation?
Matt.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
Yeah, man, I just I encourage people to get close to
these things, like not when itcomes to the discussion of the
kingdoms and the things going onin the world.
Press into it Like don't talkabout it from afar, you know,
consider it, wrestle with it,focus on the gospel, stay rooted
(28:45):
, stay centered on Christ.
At the end of the day, I mean,it doesn't matter who gets
elected, as far as where my lifeis found, it doesn't change
that Jesus rose from the dead.
It's not going to change therelationships with my family and
my love for them.
(29:05):
It's not going to change thatthe Holy Spirit animates God's
love in me and everyone elsethat follows him and trusts him.
And we'll do the same thing infour years.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
That's right Circle back.
It always comes around, hey.
So let's talk about yourministry story a little bit.
Tell us why you do what you do,how you were led to do what you
do.
This is a podcast of the UniteLeadership Collective.
We care about leadershipdevelopment like big time and so
, yeah, tell your leadershipstory and how you even got into
(29:39):
our Savior yeah, man I.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
So I started out, uh, I don't, you know, I grew up in
a like pretty normal home, likenormal 80s, 90s.
Kids right, played sports,stayed out till the street
lights came on, just, uh, all ofthat stuff and uh, you know,
like I would describe our familyis, my parents knew about Jesus
, but we didn't do anythingabout Jesus and and so we, we
(30:13):
just didn't go to church muchand it really it just wasn't
something we, we really was partof our lives.
But we had.
We had a neighbor, anon-denominational pastor, and
their family loved us just inall the gentle ways we've talked
(30:33):
about today, like they werejust present, they were there,
they invited us.
We never ended up going tochurch there ever, yet God used
them in a really great way toget his kids back.
We ended up in a school thatwas private.
(30:56):
My parents were like yeah, weneed to check that out.
It ended up being a Lutheranschool and I was like that's
great.
I don't know what that means,but I did like tell my mom, I
remember telling my parentsafter a few weeks of going there
, I was like we got to startgoing to church.
Like they take church andSunday school attendance every
week and I'm not going to makeit socially in this place if I
(31:19):
say neither every week when theytake attendance.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
And uh yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
So we started going and, um, you know, god just
brought some leaders in ourlives, really, really just kind
of um, I don't know change.
It changed us.
Um had a great youth ministryexperience, um it was.
We just so happened to be at achurch.
They have I did actually recallthis.
(31:54):
I had to recall this from oneof the a worker there I know
recently for a sermon.
They've spent over like$800,000 to send almost 100
pastors and DCEs and teachersout into the field.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
What what church is this, yeah, it's.
Trinity Klein.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
That's amazing.
So, yeah, and it all startedwith one guy that said I'm gonna
start a fund for this and thisneeds to like, this is important
, um, and so over.
Who was that?
Oh man, now you're pushing me.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
Uh, no, this is so good like because, no, you know,
it's okay he should beremembered, but what he did, the
legacy is not in who he is, butin the people that he passed on
the gospel to and sent out intothe mission field, like it's.
It's almost fantastic.
I would love, in like two,three generations, if people
said there was a season where anumber of different people,
(33:01):
young and old, were likemobilized for ministry.
What's that guy's name?
Like nobody remembers your name.
I think that's fantastic, butit's okay If you remember his
name.
That's cool too, matt, but goahead.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
No, it's Herman Schaefer.
That it's Herman Schaefer.
That's who it was.
There we go, all right, youpulled it.
Well, I was thinking about man.
There were two guys, adolphWaksman and Herman Schaefer were
the two guys that, like?
They were all about something.
Adolph Waksman, I believe, wasfor the school, though at that
place, so, good, yeah, butanyway, I just was really
(33:33):
fortunate and blessed and hadgreat leaders around me and
leading me and supporting me andencouraging, and so I went to
Concordia, nebraska, we metthere, I was in the DCE program
and love it, and love it youknow, I think what something.
(34:03):
I ended up going through theS&P process a few years ago and
so I've been doing pastoralministry since I moved here in
Washington.
But man, I just I love thelocal church, love that, I love
the congregation Right, thelocal church, love that, I love
the congregation right.
I just think loving your churchas the local congregation
changes so much about how you doministry.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
No, I agree.
So yeah, go off a little bit onour Savior.
What do you love about thecontext you're in right now?
Speaker 2 (34:29):
Oh, man, it is I.
First I would just say that anychurch that my kids love, I
love, amen, and that's just.
That is not a theologicalstatement, but just that's the
heart of a father Like I want mykids to love Jesus.
And if they love Jesus here andthey feel loved in healthy ways
(34:51):
, like it's all I want, welldone For them.
But if you pinpoint it right,it is.
We have a really greatexpression of the unity in
Christ.
You know, something you mightwonder about the Northwest is
there might be some differingperspectives from many LCMS
(35:13):
areas and we do have differentall sorts of perspectives in our
congregation and politicalthoughts and all of that.
But it's really there's areally strong unity in Jesus and
you know we can disagree aboutall sorts of things and it's not
that big of a deal.
(35:34):
We can get over hurts, we canforgive, we can move forward
together because of Jesus and Ilove the unity in that and I
love the way it's lived out.
Right, it's not something wesay.
And if you were to ask ourchurch something we say, and if,
if you were to ask our church,like if you asked our church, if
(35:56):
, if that's, you know, thehallmark of our church.
They'd be like no, that's ourmission statement.
Love God, love people, livelike Jesus.
They'd be like that's whatwe're about, but just as a
pastor looking, looking in on it, like that is so cool that they
value being the people of Godmore than being a person with
(36:17):
opinions.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
That's really good.
A lot of times we talk unityand we think it's a soft trait,
right, and there is a softnessand a gentleness to it because
it requires us to kind of openourselves up to differing
opinions.
But it was and I think stillthe fuel for the mission of God.
I mean Jesus' last words inJohn's gospel, in the high
(36:41):
priestly prayer.
I mean it is a prayer for unity.
He's been very honest with thedisciples about what's going to
happen.
They're going to hate you, theworld.
Some are going to think thatthey're doing a service to God
when they persecute and put youto death.
In this world.
You will have tribulation, buthave great courage.
I've overcome the world and nowthis is eternal life.
(37:05):
Verse three that they know you,the one true God.
This is John 17,.
Verse three.
And me, the one who has beensent, jesus, the Son of God.
And then, as you sent me, fatherthis is verse 18 of the High
Priestly Prayer as you sent meinto the world, so I am sending
them, and the world will know us, father, by the way they love
(37:30):
one another, by their unityaround the gospel and the clear
proclamation of what I've doneand the clear proclamation that
leads toward an active, robust,humble-filled love, right, this
robust agape type of love thatthey would see us caring for one
another deeply through the upsand downs of life.
(37:51):
This kind of moves into thediscipleship conversation.
A lot of times we may pitdiscipleship and evangelism
almost against one another, thekind of sending nature of the
church against kind of theinternal focus nature of the
church.
I see it's two sides of thesame coin, that when we love and
(38:12):
care for one another, when wegrow deeper in love with the
word of God and the way of Jesus, that is the fuel for
evangelism.
Discipleship, deep love for oneanother, fuels our love for the
world, those who are far fromGod.
Any thoughts about discipleship, how you define it and how it
connects to mission Matt?
Speaker 2 (38:33):
Oh man it.
You mentioned evangelism,discipleship.
They are, they have the sameengine.
I think you actually get both.
I don't think they're.
You know, I think it's reallyhard to just get one of them.
One of them Agree.
(39:00):
So everything, though, it isjust that centering on Jesus,
right, it's centered on Christ,and that's I mean.
I think what we forget indiscipleship is that the gospel
is still the power of that.
It's not.
Sometimes we think, right, thegospel is the good news that we
bring to Christ, that brings usto Christ and draws us to him
(39:20):
and connects us to him, and thenwe've got to figure it out.
And no, the gospel is thesource of life each and every
day, and so, in all that we do,in all that we teach, in all
that we preach, it's the gospel,right, it's Jesus Christ alone
(39:43):
and being centered on him thatfuels everything else.
And so I, you know, when wetalk here about discipleship, we
talk a lot about it is centeredon Christ and clothed in Christ
.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
That's good.
I love that.
So you guys have a pretty tightkind of mission statement and
kind of focus for your ministry.
What are you inviting everyfollower of Jesus at Our Savior
to be about?
Matt?
Speaker 2 (40:19):
Oh, man, we want people to love God, love people,
live like Jesus.
But what we I mean specificallywhat we do with that is we want
people to worship together.
We want them to connect in asmaller group of some sort, to
be around the word of Godtogether with others, to have
that community that's based inthe gospel and then serving.
(40:44):
We're very focused on ourcommunity and not so much of
like man.
We need to be that incrediblecommunity church.
Right, it's not.
We want to show you know,here's the stats and look at all
(41:05):
we've done.
Right, it's not anything ofthat.
It is.
We want to love our communityand our community has needs.
There are things that we can doand in our little part of, in
corner of the kingdom here, wewant to do those things and be
faithful in that.
And so outreach.
(41:27):
You know that that type ofwe're going to, we're going to
serve and not expect anything inreturn.
It's something that we'vereally, really emphasized a lot.
But, yeah, those are.
That's good In some ways.
I mean, honestly, we're notlike an innovative church.
We just have Jesus at thecenter and try to keep him there
(41:50):
.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
Well, what you stated , the three invitations from
there.
Well, what you stated, thethree invitations it is exactly
what.
Like most every church I don'tcare if you're Lutheran,
non-denom like there are threethings and it really orients.
This is a shout out to DrDetlef Schultz in his book
Mission from the Cross he's got.
He uses the flower metaphor,like the ecclesia is right there
(42:15):
in the middle and he has fourdifferent activities and he uses
the Latin words to make itsound like super.
But it's the liturgy, you knowit's, it's the liturgia, that
kind of thing.
And then there's the, the mercyor the martyrdom.
Work Right, the, the, thewitness work out in the world.
Work right, the witness workout in the world.
(42:39):
And that is a byproduct of ourservice, our sending being light
out into the community.
But we're always doing thatwith fellowship, with deep care
for one another.
The diakona, the service for thecleaning tables, taking care,
waiting on tables, from Acts,chapter six, so that the
preaching of the word couldcontinue to go, go forth Like
this is your three things.
(43:01):
Or if you say there's, maybeyou could add maybe this robust
witness, like if, if you were tosay church, like small group
worship service, and then youcould have a diagram that says
like all of this is in serviceof the sending of the spirit
through the body of Christ outinto the world.
The world would see a group ofpeople that deeply love one
(43:24):
another and live the Jesus way,like it always fuels.
It always fuels a mission.
So if people let me make onefinal comment If people think
this is like you've sold out tochurch growth movement, I could
make, as I've just done rightnow, the case that this is what
the early church did.
They continued to gathertogether temple courts, house to
(43:45):
house the Acts chapter 2 model.
They ate together, theyfellowshiped with one another
and then they went out andproclaimed the gospel.
Young and old and all differenttypes of people were active in
proclaiming the gospel, fueledby the Holy Spirit.
This is simply the way of Jesusconnected to the church and we
see that model in Acts.
Anything more to say there,matt?
Speaker 2 (44:06):
Yeah, you can pick whatever model you want, right?
Sure, yeah, and there's allsorts of ways to do it.
There's not one way in thechurch to do things.
And that's beautiful, that'sgreat.
I love that.
There's more than one way tominister to people and spread
the gospel, but it no matterwhat it is it all comes back to
(44:31):
is it rooted in Christ andclothed in Christ?
And, and that's it.
If people are asking like, hey,so what's the answer?
That's the answer Rooted inChrist, clothed in Christ, like,
if you don't have that andwe've all experienced that in
churches that we've been part ofat times of like, well, we say
(44:52):
we're about these things, butthey don't seem to work, or we
don't really seem to be aboutthem, or they look good on the
wall or on paper, and if it'srooted in Christ and clothed in
Christ, that's it.
That's all that happened in theearly church.
Speaker 1 (45:09):
Well, yeah, that's exactly right and it had a
multiplying effect as it wentforward.
I mean, I'm going to doubledown and you're less
pastor-centric.
There's no one.
You don't have to call it smallgroups or whatever, but are you
raising up other leaders, otherproclaimers, and identifying
those that are teachers in yourmidst that can share the
(45:32):
discipleship opportunity thatyou have?
If Jesus only had three, andthen 12, and then 70, and we
know, sociologically, a humanbeing can only have really deep
relationships with a hundredpeople, like a deep, deep
relationship, who are we tothink that we can disciple
congregations of five, six, youknow, 2000,.
A lot of our congregations juststay at that size because
(45:52):
that's the ability of the pastorto disciple.
But if you said, yeah, I candisciple this group of folks who
are leading, but I'm going todisciple them toward something,
toward ascending, toward aleadership responsibility, and I
don't care in the meantime,whatever you call the gathering,
the influence that that leaderhas over the next group.
We just choose to call it smallgroups, smaller faith
(46:16):
communities who are deepeningtheir love for one another,
centered in the word, and goingout on mission to make him known
in their various vocations.
That's, that's it.
So anyway, matt, I love that.
I love that conversation.
Last last talking point, youwere a DCE that evolved into a
pastor.
That's a normal progression, Ithink, for a lot of younger
(46:40):
leaders, and that's not a slightto those that are lifetime kind
of youth pastors DCEs in ourcontext, directors of Christian
education, if you're wonderingwhat that acronym means.
How has youth ministry, though,changed?
And I'm asking this on theheels of just completing the
book the Anxious Generation,which, when you start talking
(47:02):
about, we always look at thenegative things.
There are some struggles ofbeing a young person today that
you and I didn't have when wewere growing up in the 80s and
90s.
It's very different.
So let's talk about castingvision for discipling the next
Jan as we close here, matt.
Speaker 2 (47:20):
Yeah, you know, I actually have one.
I feel like I have one of thebest opportunities as a pastor.
I still get to do a lot of DCEtype stuff and I just get to
live in both worlds.
I have a foot in both kingdoms,if we want to keep the kingdom
metaphor going.
But it's really cool to walkalongside.
(47:43):
I walk alongside families morenow, but, I mentioned earlier,
teens definitely have the everyvoice matters context, which is
totally different.
But teens also live in a lot inmany multiple contexts.
Right, it's not just like home,school, church, they've got
(48:07):
extracurriculars, they've gotdigital.
It's amazing to me, like in ourteenagers in our house, how
many people they know indifferent spaces.
Right, like and just in ourcommunity.
Like, I'm like, how do you knowthose?
How do you know those kids Like, oh well, they're friends with
(48:30):
this person or they go to churchwith this person or they've got
, I mean, their networkingability, is it?
It's wild.
You know, I'm like, I thinkabout it, I'm not, I'm not as
extroverted as as a lot, and soI'm like, why are you talking to
those people?
Like, let's lead a quiet lifeand and get home, but that's,
(48:54):
that's really somethingsignificant with them, but their
challenge is so much, with allthat exposure, it's the
information overload.
It's not about findinginformation, it's about using it
.
It's about figuring out whattruth actually is.
Figuring out what truthactually is Figuring out how do
(49:16):
I use this information?
The internet's great, but Ithink for people like you and I,
people of the age of you and I,like in our 40s, when we apply
the way we think and grew upthinking and were taught to
(49:37):
think to this context, there areso many things that we think
through and process throughabout what we might read or
consume on the Internet, rightLike there's just I mean, we had
to do like bibliographies andall sorts of fact checking and
encyclopedias, all that stuff,and we just there's a different
(50:02):
discipline to that and that'ssomething that I I see in our
younger generation, that theystruggle with is developing how
do I distinguish truth?
I know you talk to any of ourteachers that teach young people
and they'll talk about.
It's not about memorizing stuffanymore, it's about how do you
(50:23):
distinguish the truth.
How do you use the informationthat's at your disposal?
Speaker 1 (50:30):
Well, no, let's pause on that.
How does the Bible I mean thesource of truth that points us
to truth and flesh how does thatdynamic?
Potentially, when you've got somany different perspectives,
you can look up so manydifferent perspectives on Jesus,
(50:51):
on the Bible, how the Biblecame together and how have you
tried to help people?
Because I think our apologeticI guess this is a question our
apologetic today is differentthan it was, um, when we were
growing up.
Anything more to say there,matt?
Speaker 2 (51:07):
Oh yeah, man, our apologetics, so different, right
, Like, uh, back in, you know,the back in the last century.
Uh, the you know the big pushwas right.
You got to know more facts andyou're going to.
This is how you win an argumentor win a discussion or a debate
.
And faith, really thediscussion, the collision of
(51:31):
faith or theologies orphilosophies that's where it
lived was in the academic.
The collision of face ortheologies or philosophies
that's where it lived was in theacademic.
But it's shifted, it's movednow into a realm that's.
You know, we have to be alittle, you know, have both
(51:52):
brains working, the left and theright brain on it.
We can't just be on.
Here's all the facts.
But you know, I think it comesback to you know what Paul
writes.
You know, like, what is, whatare all these gifts if I don't
have love, right?
What is all the reason, all thetalents, if I don't have the
(52:14):
love of God?
And I think that's somethingour culture has shifted to, to
being a little more holistic inthe way we process information
and think about truth.
It's different, but I don'tknow that I would label it a bad
(52:36):
thing.
I think it challenges us to saynot just what is the truth.
But how does the truth changeme?
How does the truth of thegospel change my heart and my
life?
And not so I can be glorious,not that I can be perfected, but
(52:59):
how is Jesus alive in me eachand every day?
I think that's something ourworld today is going to become
more open to, and I'm pretty Idon't know I'm pretty excited
about the future of the church.
I'm not really, you know, thechurch is done Like we had our
(53:24):
glory day, that's.
I just don't live there.
Speaker 1 (53:28):
Yeah, well, that's good, that's an awful place to
live, so never live there.
You gotta have a hope.
It's a fuel for our work nowand obviously, into the day that
Jesus returns to make allthings new.
I think in the postmoderncontext to just add a little bit
of my thoughts.
In the postmodern context ithas some pluses and minuses and
(53:50):
you can say there may be arevert back to a pre-modern
context today, but I'll justhold on post-modernity being
like firmly entrenched.
What is truth?
And if we're totally trying toargue and engage our thinking
system but we're arguing settingoff our feeling system, we're
(54:12):
going to totally, totally missit feeling system.
We're going to totally, totallymiss it.
And so can our young peoplelook at the church and the cause
.
You can be right in all thewrong ways, will they?
Will they look at the way wetalk about truth and experience?
Wow, I could belong there withthat group of people because
they're actively wrestling.
There's a, there's a humility toeven the way they talk about
(54:34):
things they firmly believe in,because it's not them who have
grasped it, it's God who hasgrasped them.
I mean, this is just our goodpassive faith, theology.
And now we're on the journeyand a lot of people kind of make
fun of that language journey,but it is helpful.
I'm growing up into Jesus andI'm learning what really really
(54:57):
matters, the things that arecore to me, my values as a
follower of Jesus.
At the top of that, it must belove.
It must be God's desire to notlabel our enemies as our enemies
.
There's only one enemy.
He's Satan, and God's desirethrough us is that all of his
(55:17):
kids would give back I say thatoften and I just think that has
to be the humble mindset todayand to engage the feeling center
before the thinking center.
Anything more to add to that,matt.
Speaker 2 (55:30):
Yeah, man, I think in the apologetic side, I think we
also need to be patient with itin a way we haven't in the past
.
I think we've.
You know, the way we'veapproached in the past is you
just need to know the rightanswers.
And if you have the rightanswers you'll logically
conclude this is the truth andJesus is the way, and Jesus is
(56:27):
the way.
I think that I think it's alittle insulting to the
complexity and details and way.
Years ago, apologetics was aboutconvincing people that what
they had grown up with and beentold was the truth actually is
still the truth.
And now you know you're movinginto a space.
I think living in the PacificNorthwest has a little bit of a
(56:58):
glimpse into this, more so thansome other areas of the country
where I think we're past thepoint up here where the majority
is in a I'm hurt by the churchtype of thing, into a I just
don't know Like I think we're acouple generations into being
de-churched and so there's noteven a foundation to say here's
why that was right, Right, andif you have that foundation,
like that foundation wasattached in those generations'
lives, it was, you know, theyhad parents, grandparents
connected in that.
But you know, here I would sayit's less likely to have a
(57:25):
family legacy of faith.
And so there's just curiosity,there's confusion, but there's
openness, right, I just don'tknow about it.
Yeah, so you're connecting on adifferent level.
Speaker 1 (57:45):
You are, and I think that was the call of the early
church, especially as they movedinto the Gentile waters.
Right yeah, let me tell youabout this unknown God Gentile
waters, right yeah, let me tellyou about this unknown God.
Go ahead, yeah.
Speaker 2 (57:58):
Yeah, no, I mean, you're exactly right.
Like that you read Acts andyou're like this doesn't look
anything like what I think I'mexperiencing now and I maybe I
chuckle at it a little bit, but15 years ago there was that big
movement in the church of we gotto get back to being like the
(58:19):
early church and it's like thisis what the early church is.
It's in different cultures,it's in places where the Lord
isn't known and that's where theLord sends us.
Speaker 1 (58:33):
Yeah, I remember, wasn't it the Gentile conversion
?
I think it's Peter that goes.
And hey, we were baptized.
How were you baptized?
Oh, it was John's baptism.
We'd not even heard there wasthis baptism in the Holy Spirit,
in the name of the triune God.
Well, let me tell you about that.
I mean, it's that sort ofclarity, but there's a kindness
to it.
And, uh, every single week andwe're we're probably a half a
(58:58):
generation, not a fullgeneration here and cause we
still have some Midwestinfluences in in the Arizona
context, people that havemulti-generation Lutherans et
cetera.
So they have certainexpectations.
But we're also influenced by alot of a lot of pre-Christians,
a lot of folks, younger people.
We have this is wild in ourschool, matt.
So we have about 500 kidspreschool through kind of a
(59:21):
hybrid high school model, 500kids on our campus Monday
through Friday and 100 of themstate they don't have a church.
So we have, and they gotyounger parents too.
Probably early thirties is theaverage age Like that's a prime
mission field for starting justa normal conversation around
(59:42):
around Jesus, around life, justgetting to know them.
And we've got a great strategy,led by one of our discipleship
pastors, to like let's, let's beabout that and and not not
going out trying to argue, justgoing out and love to get to
know the person and when theHoly Spirit opens the door,
which he will, you give a reasonfor the hope that you have, but
(01:00:04):
do so with respect, withkindness and respect.
I think is what Peter saysright Is there's a humility to
the way we talk about what istruth.
So this has been so much fun.
Last question I had one more,so this has been so much fun.
Last question I had one more.
I just want to close with thisFavorite Jesus story in the
Bible and why.
Speaker 2 (01:00:20):
Matt, Simple man, Prodigal son, Love the lost son.
I just think it's applicable toeverybody.
I think that the handles inthat are ones that anybody can
grasp.
Everybody has a story abouttheir father, whether they, you
(01:00:44):
know, had this really richrelationship or they never knew
their father.
Everybody gets that Like thatis something just in our design.
Like that is something just inour design.
And the way the father istowards both sons, which I feel
(01:01:05):
like I can be both sons in thesame day, it's so graceful,
right it is.
It's like the purestillustration of grace that just
connects to every heart.
I know Like there's even themost hardened bitter person
could hear that and be like Idon't believe any of it.
(01:01:31):
Blah, blah, blah, blah.
But it talks about somethingthat I know, that I want in my
life and I wish I had.
I just think it's such abeautiful, beautiful story.
So yeah.
What about you?
What's your favorite?
Speaker 1 (01:01:50):
Well, yeah, I've doubled down on that too.
I mean, we need to party whenlost kids come back home, you
know.
Speaker 2 (01:01:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:01:57):
That's my favorite part.
And to celebrate them and toreject the older son tendency,
that's my favorite story.
Well, the whole book isfantastic.
The life story has been Luke 10for me Jesus sending out, after
sending out the 12, sending outthe 70, with his authority to
(01:02:20):
cast out demons, to care for thepoor and to proclaim the
kingdom of God and to heal thesick.
And they come back and theykind of have this arrogant kind
of posture toward Jesus.
They want to tell Jesus all theamazing things they did, which
were amazing to be sure.
But then he says don't rejoicein that, rejoice that your names
are written in the kingdom.
(01:02:41):
I think there's so many likeleadership lessons, humility,
like you get to be a part ofthis thing, but don't think it's
about you or you're my power ofstrength, this is all me and
this is all fueled by myauthority, which has been given
from heaven to you.
So mind your role, creaturerather than, rather than.
You're not the creator, I'm the, I'm the author of all things
(01:03:05):
and yet you get to play a smallpart in my big story.
So probably Luke 10 is one ofmy favorite.
But, man, it's hard to, it'shard to top the posture, the,
the heart of the lost son, andreally the entire chapter, which
is Luke 15, the lost coin andthe lost sheep, et cetera.
So this has been so much fun.
That's why this podcast existsin the ULC exists.
God has a mission to get all ofhis kids back and the church
has to play her role in, inwhere reformation needs to take
(01:03:27):
place, where listening, humilityneed to take place for
challenging conversations needto take place.
Leaders need to step into thatand do so with the kindness and
gentleness of Jesus.
Matt, if people want to connectwith you, how can they do?
Speaker 2 (01:03:37):
so, pastor Matt oslccom, I exist on social but
I'm at Matt Cario but I don'tknow.
I'm losing my social esteem.
Speaker 1 (01:03:53):
Yeah, me too.
I never really had it, to bequite honest, but nonetheless
it's a good day going.
Make it a great day.
Jesus loves you.
His mission is out in front ofyou Raise up the next generation
of Jesus followers to bring hislove, his word, his sacrament
to a dark and dying world.
The days are too short to doanything other than that.
Thanks so much for hanging withme today, matt.
You're a blessing.
Welcome to the American Reformation podcast,
tim Allman.
Here Today I get the privilegeof hanging out with a classmate
of mine from Concordia, nebraska, back in 2004.
This is Pastor Matt Cario.
We're celebrating 20 years,graduating.
I don't know, are we having areunion or something like that
coming up, matt?
I don't know if I've even seenanything like that.
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
I went back like a year ago for a visit and, oh,
it's so different.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
It's so different.
Well, I'm going to be goingback for a visit, probably with
my son in the next year, to seeif he wants to be a bulldog,
play football there and all thatkind of stuff.
So it's good to be a bulldog.
More than that, it's better tobe a Jesus follower who's been
blessed to be in the LutheranChurch of Missouri Synod.
This conversation is not alwaysincluding folks in the LCMS,
but today we're talking aboutdiscipleship, deep prayers for
(00:50):
unity and trust within thechurch and our opening
conversation.
Just a little more about Matt.
He's a pastor at Our SaviorLutheran Church in Tacoma,
washington.
He's been there eight years.
He's approaching 20 years ofmarriage to his wife, meredith,
and they have two young girls,ninth grader and a sixth grader
and life is so, so good at OurSavior with Pastor Matt and a
(01:13):
shout out too to Pastor TimBayer and their partnership in
the gospel there and the wholeteam at Our Savior.
This is going to be a funconversation.
So the opening question forAmerican Reformation, matt, how
are you praying for, asLutherans?
Right, reformation's a big dealin our vocabulary.
How are you praying forReformation in the American
Christian church?
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Ah, man, you know what I pray for a lot is the
local church.
I'm just a local church guy.
Everybody has something they'rereally passionate about and
they're like this is what God iscalling me to, and we need
people called to everything, butI love the local church,
(01:52):
particularly the church that I'mcalled to.
That is something I'm alwayslooking to, to pray for all the
local churches, because that'swhere God does so much work in
people's lives.
I pray for raising up andmaking space with younger
leaders.
You mentioned, right, 20 years.
(02:13):
We're in that middle career arcin our lives and so really
praying about that, we're aboutthe younger leaders.
And who are we raising up?
How is God working in theirlives, and it's really cool to
(02:33):
see how they just love Jesus,but they see him through some
different lenses that are reallybeneficial for our church and
the future and for ourcommunities.
And you know, the last thing Ipray for is I and this is
probably more, you know, I guessit could be all churches, but
specifically in our context andthe Lutheran church becoming
(02:57):
less pastor-centric, and I don'tmean that like let's demote
pastors, but I would love if wetalked about all the different
ways you can serve the Lord more, because there's so many needs
and there's so many differenttypes of people in our churches
(03:17):
that God is calling to do things, and the more we can make
avenues for that, I think thatjust is.
It's healthy for the body.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Yeah, it's absolutely necessary for the body.
So tell me, when you say thoseyoung lenses, you're interacting
with younger people not just asa dad, but as a discipleship
pastor.
What are some of those youngerlenses as a Jesus follower that
those of us who are in themiddle or older stages of life
should pay attention to?
Speaker 2 (03:47):
You know, every culture shift that happens
across generations, we tend tofocus on the negatives of that.
I feel like that seems to bethe way in our culture currently
the way we evaluate thingsfirst is negative first, but
(04:11):
there's also positives to that.
I mean.
One example, right.
So our kids have kind of grownup in a generation of where
every voice matters, right, likeit doesn't matter what your
view is.
Every voice matters, right,like it doesn't matter what your
view is.
Every voice matters.
And one of the cool, reallybeneficial lenses of that with
the gospel is that our kids allbelieve they have a voice and
(04:35):
they all believe it matters.
And if their voice is for Jesus, like, it matters and they're
not afraid to share it and theirfriends and their peers are not
against it.
I think growing up in the 80s,90s, there was definitely a
little more of certain voicesmatter more than others.
(04:56):
And if you didn't have one ofthose certain perspectives or
lenses, man, you know there wassome.
There was some different typeof pressure on that, but I just
see that though, man, like inour kids, like it's, it's really
cool to watch.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
No, it really.
It really is the church.
The church is playing above.
I don't know why my because ofthe season we're in, probably
the the political climate inwhich we we live in, the church
plays above the political fray.
Today we set our minds andhearts on Christ, who reigns
(05:33):
above.
And when the rhetoric in culturegets so kind of toxic, divisive
and I don't care on whatextreme, whether it's left or
right, and and the name calling,et cetera, I think a lot of our
younger sensitive leaders arejust like.
There has to be a better.
I mean, this is what I thinkthere has to be a better way to
speak truth to power and toreceive correction, and it's the
(05:58):
Jesus way which is centered inrelationship, a depth of trust
that should flow from the localchurch.
I think the local church andhopefully catalyzed by a lot of
our younger leaders growing up,the local church can have a
unifying impact.
Today we talk about unity onthis, just holding society in
general together, creating roomfor disagreeing agreeably and
(06:20):
just discourse in general, likepositing different ideas and
weighing, you know, thephilosopher's heart, which is, I
think we kind of come under.
I think of the Athenian model,right, I mean creating space to
have differing ideas, and do wehave any of those types of
places in culture today?
And I don't see them, otherthan the church potentially
(06:44):
created space for that rightBecause it's centered in our
identity in Jesus.
Like then we can, it's game onright and so, yeah, any thoughts
there, matt?
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Yeah, matt.
Well, you talk about the Jesusway.
I mean, you know, tim Kellerreally popularized that a lot
with the third way and kind ofthat.
What Jesus does constantlyright, he is, he's not, he never
takes sides.
Jesus makes a way and I thinkit's such a great opportunity
for the church.
(07:14):
I actually think, looking backat COVID, that was a great
opportunity for the church tostart and to say we're going to
take the Jesus way and it'sprobably not one of the other 97
opinions about what we shoulddo, but Jesus and what's really
(07:35):
significant about that, liketheologically, is if Jesus is
the way, the truth and the lifeas he says he is the way, the
truth and the life as he says heis, then he has to be the one
that makes a way for all to him.
Right, it's not gonna, it can'tjust be.
Here is this narrow way that wesee and we agree upon.
And the cool thing about Jesusis I'm not the same person.
(08:01):
I was a year ago or three yearsago or five years ago or 10
years ago, and if I met me 10years ago, there's things I'd be
like that's kind of cringy or Idon't know that.
I agree with that, but Jesus isthere with us on that lifelong
journey, the more that we canlive that out and communicate
(08:23):
that.
That is just like gospel foryour soul over a lifetime.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Yeah, no, absolutely Jesus.
I like the third way.
And this is just where healthyhuman thriving takes place.
I've just started talking forthe first time, and this morning
.
So here we go.
It is.
It is courage, it's centered incourage.
I've just been listening andmoving my body all morning and
(08:53):
reading and okay, here we go,get the lips going.
It takes courage on the onehand, uh, but not, not coward,
you're not, not, notoverwhelmingly arrogance, right?
Speaker 2 (09:04):
so I um, you stopped and that's all right.
(09:34):
You know what everybody?
Tim's had a long morning.
It's really taken a toll on himand he'll be back at some point
.
So just stay tuned and enjoythe silence.
Oh man, thank you.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Oh man, oh man.
Gee, that was the weirdestthing, matt, uh what happened my
entire system just shut downand restarted.
Wow, I even restarted mycomputer, like last week.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Anyway, whatever, you are actually still running,
you're just overwhelming it Wayto go.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
I don't think that was it at all.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
I think it was the Holy.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Spirit saying you got to start again here, so anyway,
it's actually running.
So, Adam, you can start hereand I'm just going to talk about
the middle way really quick andthen turn it back to you.
So I love that, matt, themiddle way.
The middle way is thecombination between courage not
(11:53):
arrogance and then humility,which leads us into team.
I've done a lot of listening tosome social scientists and
actually have done somebehavioral analysis myself, and
we need the balance ofaggressive and passive traits at
the same time.
This is a Harrison behavioralassessment tool that I've used
(12:13):
and a lot of times in the church.
We're overly passive and pastorscan be overly passive, and
that's actually unattractive.
That's seen by many as kind ofweak.
We don't have a voice.
But you can also go to theother extreme and become
narcissistic, and we obviouslydon't want to live there either.
So can we as the people of Godand this is individually and
(12:35):
collectively present thishealthy, confident, courageous
voice that's seated with great,great humility, with arms open
wide to people who may havediffering views and be at
different places, on theirrespective journey with one
another and with God.
Any thoughts about that?
That way, that kind of thirdway that Keller talks about?
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Yeah Well, you, what you described about you know,
needing courage but also needing, like, a quiet confidence.
With that, we actually havethat in the Holy Spirit that
lives in us.
I mean this is what gentlenessis and the fruit of the spirit
and it's gentleness is just,it's that, it's that strength
(13:18):
that you don't have to flexabout, it's knowing, it's having
that confidence of knowing thatJesus does reign, that I don't
need to worry about some ofthese big things, knowing that
God is powerful, knowing that hecan be trusted, and knowing it
will work out, but not having toforce it, not having to make it
(13:43):
always happen.
And so I just, you know,pressing into for me like that
was something you know, learningabout gentleness as a leader
and as a Jesus follower wasreally.
It gave language to thatfeeling of how do I go in this
and it's like, oh, that makessense.
(14:03):
It's that quiet strength, it'sthat restrained, controlled
strength.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Yeah Well, that was the way of Jesus, right, the God
who had every right to choosethe power position and yet
humble himself to the point ofdeath and a cross.
And out of that quietconfidence he drew by the
Spirit's power and started thegreatest movement the world has
(14:30):
ever known in the local church.
People who were willing tocourageously speak what was true
, as they had come to know it inthe person and work of Jesus,
and live out then the way ofJesus with arms open wide,
courageously, even going totheir deaths on behalf of the
cause of Jesus.
Like we need courageously, evengoing to their deaths on behalf
of the cause of Jesus.
We need that sort of confidenceand humility, that gentleness
(14:51):
today and what it does to thehuman brain too talking just
brain science is it allows us tothink about what we're going to
say before we say it and notget triggered one way or another
to keep our head about us, tospeak the way of Jesus.
As you look at a guy like MartinLuther let's talk about Luther
(15:13):
a bit.
Whenever you hear the wordreformation you think if you've
got any kind of church historybackground, you think of Martin
Luther, and I think he kind ofhad that.
People may not call him gentleall the time, that may not be
the adjective that's used forLuther all the time, but he had
the ability to write clearly, tospeak clearly and to draw
people together and to give thewider church the courage to
(15:35):
speak truth to power, truth toRome, truth to works,
righteousness, etc.
So what parts of Luther'sReformation story do you think
we need to double down on today?
Matt?
Speaker 2 (15:46):
So what parts of Luther's Reformation story do
you think we need to double downon today?
Matt oh man, number twokingdoms.
So just understanding what isGod's kingdom and how do we live
with a foot in that and a footin the worldly kingdom, I think
that brings it, just bringsclarity to like what we need to
focus on, what we need to haveconfidence in and what we can
(16:08):
trust and and also what we, whatwe should worry about.
You know I know some I say weknow Jesus speaks of that, but
you know it does help, kind ofhelp manage our where we focus
(16:30):
on someone.
That and then our neighbor.
I think we, if we focus on ourneighbors and I justify
neighbors is whoever's along ourway, whoever we're alongside in
life but just having that longfocus on our neighbors, I you
(16:50):
know it's something we'repersonally just passionate about
in our house, that we have tobe part of our neighbors' lives
and it doesn't always mean huh,no, yeah, keep going, keep going
.
It doesn't always mean yeah, no,it's really important, and I
(17:12):
think for leaders it just itbecomes one of those activities
or choices that gives you afoundation, Like it just keeps
you grounded in reality.
Like it just keeps you groundedin reality and it's amazing
(17:32):
what God just does through thattime and time again.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Well, let's merge both of those.
If we're connected to ourneighbor, our neighbor may have
a different understanding,different worldview, different
political allegiances etc.
And do we meet them as aneighbor and then do we develop
conversations, a relationship oftrust, so that we can, where
there may be opportunities tolearn and grow, we can have the
(17:53):
courageous conversation.
You talk about two kingdoms,though.
For those that maybe have notheard of Luther's two kingdoms,
what is like a, a confirmationlevel, we'll go one to 202 kind
of definition of two kingdoms.
Matt, how does it apply to yourwork as a pastor?
Speaker 2 (18:11):
Well, I mean, essentially it's right.
It's just that there's akingdom of God that is active
and reigning Ever since Jesusdies on the cross.
It's just expanding, and thatis the true kingdom.
That is the real kingdom.
There's the kingdoms of theworld, and it's always changing
(18:36):
right.
There's always a fight overwho's in charge of the kingdom
of the world, and yet, untilJesus returns, we are in both
kingdoms.
We live simultaneously, and soit's what Paul talks about when
he says right, like you know,we're aliens here.
We are not natives in that waythat we belong to the Lord, we
(19:01):
belong to the kingdom of heaven.
Yet we live in this world, andit helps us keep that focus a
little bit of what we shouldcare most about.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
How does God work, mainly in the kingdoms of this
world?
How does he execute his justice?
And it's through governmentright.
It's through good government,and government that promotes the
office of mother and father,government that rewards the good
right According to laws bothwritten and on our hearts, and
(19:35):
it punishes the evil.
What is the role, though, ofleaders today?
I think this is one of theconfusing and challenging
opportunities for us as leadersin the church.
Luther did not shy away fromtalking against government, and
he actually said some things on,and this is not the shining
Luther moment on the Jews andtheir lies.
He was actually calling forgovernment to kind of move in a
(20:00):
controlling direction in thatregard, and we don't need to go
deep there.
That's one of kind of the blackeyes, I think, in Lutheranism
today, but we still have a rolein speaking.
If the government is notsupporting adequately the office
of mother and father, we needto speak, the church needs to
speak Now.
The way we speak is obviouslyseasoned with love and clarity,
(20:21):
but it better be courageous.
So any thoughts about how thechurch and even leaders, pastors
, speak, because and I'm justspeaking from experience right
now I get pulled in a number ofdifferent directions as it
relates to this, and I can'tspeak about candidates, but I
can speak about topics when theBible speaks very, very clearly.
(20:41):
We have to speak right, so anyany other thoughts there, matt?
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Yeah, I think that, uh, I think you're you kind of
hit it on the head there, man.
It's speaking about topics, um,that the Bible clearly speaks
to is, uh, it's we have to do it, um, and we should do it.
I mean, we, we are, we arelovers of truth, right, we want
(21:07):
to share the truth, and so Ithink that those are areas that
we can speak in.
So the challenge, I think, forthe church is often, I think,
people come to pastors like you,right, like you have people
(21:29):
that email you and say, hey, weneed to do this petition.
Hey, we need to talk about thisfrom the pulpit.
Hey, we need a view on this.
I think it's something thatevery Christian needs to spend a
lot more time in of how do Ispeak about that, and not just
(21:50):
well, here's what my pastor saidand that's what I say.
I think the wrestling of how doI speak truth in challenging
contexts is an important processfor Christians to wrestle
through, for Christians towrestle through, and that
changes the way they talk toothers about it.
It helps it be well-reasoned,it personalizes it so that it's
(22:14):
contextual, and that's whenthat's a welcome conversation,
more so than hey, check out thistwo-minute sermon clip that my
pastor rips on this, or you?
Speaker 1 (22:28):
know, the reason I'm laughing is I had a lady,
precious lady, come up and saythis happens like every week.
You got to listen to thispastor talk about this topic and
hopefully that can inspire youknow.
So, okay, that's all right.
But I think you're exactlyright Getting down to personal
responsibility, elevating thepriesthood, like you are all.
(22:49):
First, peter, right, you areall a priest.
You're called to bring light todark places.
This is the role of the church.
Yes, leaders must speak tomodel kind of not only what we
say but how we can say it.
But then the Holy Spirit fillsall of the baptized and so, um,
if you, I'd love to have this,I'd love to have people like
beating down my door to set upspaces to talk about the two
(23:12):
kingdoms.
We actually did a, a faith andpolitics two week kind of
seminar class where we talkedabout the two kingdoms, talked
about good public discourse,talked about the role of the
government and the church's roleand God's role, kind of
overseeing both the office ofthe church and the role of
(23:32):
government in this culture, andpeople found that helpful.
My struggle is I think we livein echo chambers Because there's
a lot of people in the middlethat are looking at it like wow,
you really are passionate aboutthat topic.
Wow, you're really passionate.
They're like.
They're like pull them.
(23:53):
Most people are right in themiddle, like saying I would just
like to go about my life, youknow.
But could they have a postureof curiosity so that they're if?
If they're in the middle, theyhave the curiosity to say what
does God's word say about thisand how should I speak about
what God's word says about this?
Anything more there, matt?
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Well, I mean, most people don't live on the edges
right.
Most people don't have all oftheir views represented by a
commentary voice out there.
People are complicated.
I mean we just are.
(24:36):
We have all sorts of beliefsand experiences in our country
and, as people that areconflicting, like they don't,
you know, seem like they shouldgo together.
But they do because should gotogether, but they do because,
apart from Christ, we experiencethe brokenness of sin in our
lives and around us and it canbe disorienting in that, and so
having healthy discourse, Ithink, is so significant.
(25:00):
You know, there's a while back,man, I heard.
You know, like you listen to apodcast and like you just go
through it but you don't reallyremember anything.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
But I heard a lot of people have had that experience
on this one, but nonetheless,yeah they already turned out.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
They missed that.
They don't even get to thatcomment today.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
But tell me about your experience with that,
though?
Speaker 2 (25:23):
Yeah, no man today, but, um, tell me about your
experience with that though.
Yeah, no man, I there.
I forget the woman's name, butshe was, um, she was sharing,
and she said you know, my nobodythat has a different view than
me is ever going to change theirmind unless I spend time with
them.
It just won't.
It's a long-term relationship,like you got to, and it's just
(25:45):
that reminder, like in politicsand faith and life, and you know
neighborhood business.
Nobody's going to change theirmind unless you spend time with
them.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Yeah, and what can we actually control when it gets
right down to it?
We're going to land this plane,but you should vote, you should
be a good citizen, but thenwhat can you ultimately control?
It's your family.
It's working out into yourfriend group, it's working to be
a wonderful neighbor.
That's substantial.
(26:19):
If everybody just focused onwhat is within our spheres of
influence, right, that we canactually influence, how much
better and we work toward itselflessly, sacrificially how
much better would the witness ofthe church be and I have to say
this to my congregationPresident Trump gets elected.
He's not the Savior.
We're still going to have a lotof struggles in the United
(26:41):
States and just in the humanexperience, there is one Savior.
His name is Jesus and he's gota mission to get all of his kids
back and the audacity that hewants to use the local church
word and sacrament people be inthe hands and feet of Jesus to
to get his kids back, to elevatethem above Metanoia, where
Christ is like that's, that's it, that's it, no, no one.
Kingdoms rise, kingdoms fall.
(27:02):
Could the United States ofAmerica fall because of voting
and bad choices we make?
Could the blessing of God, ifyou will kind of move away and
when we talk blessing right, Ithink maybe we've been focused
on the idols of this age, ourremarkable affluence in the
United States of America andwe've made gods out of so many
(27:22):
different things.
Like this is where pastors needto be speaking.
If a certain group gets elected, like it could actually be the
death of many people spirituallyright who say, oh, now that's
it.
No, we need a collectiverepentance to take place
throughout the church to smashthe idols of this age.
(27:46):
I was reading through sorry tojust go on a little rant here,
but I was reading through 1 and2 Kings.
Just recently this guy wasaround.
He had a reign but he was anevil king.
He had lots of idols, theresidual damage in the kingdom,
be it Israel or Judah, it wasgood, it was bad, et cetera.
Kingdoms rise, kingdoms fall.
The word of the Lord standsforever.
(28:07):
Like we have to keep peoplefocused on the main thing
because we are prone to drift.
We're drifters as human beingsand idle factory makers.
So any responses to that as weclose, kind of the two kingdom
conversation?
Matt.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
Yeah, man, I just I encourage people to get close to
these things, like not when itcomes to the discussion of the
kingdoms and the things going onin the world.
Press into it Like don't talkabout it from afar, you know,
consider it, wrestle with it,focus on the gospel, stay rooted
(28:45):
, stay centered on Christ.
At the end of the day, I mean,it doesn't matter who gets
elected, as far as where my lifeis found, it doesn't change
that Jesus rose from the dead.
It's not going to change therelationships with my family and
my love for them.
(29:05):
It's not going to change thatthe Holy Spirit animates God's
love in me and everyone elsethat follows him and trusts him.
And we'll do the same thing infour years.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
That's right Circle back.
It always comes around, hey.
So let's talk about yourministry story a little bit.
Tell us why you do what you do,how you were led to do what you
do.
This is a podcast of the UniteLeadership Collective.
We care about leadershipdevelopment like big time and so
, yeah, tell your leadershipstory and how you even got into
(29:39):
our Savior yeah, man I.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
So I started out, uh, I don't, you know, I grew up in
a like pretty normal home, likenormal 80s, 90s.
Kids right, played sports,stayed out till the street
lights came on, just, uh, all ofthat stuff and uh, you know,
like I would describe our familyis, my parents knew about Jesus
, but we didn't do anythingabout Jesus and and so we, we
(30:13):
just didn't go to church muchand it really it just wasn't
something we, we really was partof our lives.
But we had.
We had a neighbor, anon-denominational pastor, and
their family loved us just inall the gentle ways we've talked
(30:33):
about today, like they werejust present, they were there,
they invited us.
We never ended up going tochurch there ever, yet God used
them in a really great way toget his kids back.
We ended up in a school thatwas private.
(30:56):
My parents were like yeah, weneed to check that out.
It ended up being a Lutheranschool and I was like that's
great.
I don't know what that means,but I did like tell my mom, I
remember telling my parentsafter a few weeks of going there
, I was like we got to startgoing to church.
Like they take church andSunday school attendance every
week and I'm not going to makeit socially in this place if I
(31:19):
say neither every week when theytake attendance.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
And uh yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
So we started going and, um, you know, god just
brought some leaders in ourlives, really, really just kind
of um, I don't know change.
It changed us.
Um had a great youth ministryexperience, um it was.
We just so happened to be at achurch.
They have I did actually recallthis.
(31:54):
I had to recall this from oneof the a worker there I know
recently for a sermon.
They've spent over like$800,000 to send almost 100
pastors and DCEs and teachersout into the field.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
What what church is this, yeah, it's.
Trinity Klein.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
That's amazing.
So, yeah, and it all startedwith one guy that said I'm gonna
start a fund for this and thisneeds to like, this is important
, um, and so over.
Who was that?
Oh man, now you're pushing me.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
Uh, no, this is so good like because, no, you know,
it's okay he should beremembered, but what he did, the
legacy is not in who he is, butin the people that he passed on
the gospel to and sent out intothe mission field, like it's.
It's almost fantastic.
I would love, in like two,three generations, if people
said there was a season where anumber of different people,
(33:01):
young and old, were likemobilized for ministry.
What's that guy's name?
Like nobody remembers your name.
I think that's fantastic, butit's okay If you remember his
name.
That's cool too, matt, but goahead.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
No, it's Herman Schaefer.
That it's Herman Schaefer.
That's who it was.
There we go, all right, youpulled it.
Well, I was thinking about man.
There were two guys, adolphWaksman and Herman Schaefer were
the two guys that, like?
They were all about something.
Adolph Waksman, I believe, wasfor the school, though at that
place, so, good, yeah, butanyway, I just was really
(33:33):
fortunate and blessed and hadgreat leaders around me and
leading me and supporting me andencouraging, and so I went to
Concordia, nebraska, we metthere, I was in the DCE program
and love it, and love it youknow, I think what something.
(34:03):
I ended up going through theS&P process a few years ago and
so I've been doing pastoralministry since I moved here in
Washington.
But man, I just I love thelocal church, love that, I love
the congregation Right, thelocal church, love that, I love
the congregation right.
I just think loving your churchas the local congregation
changes so much about how you doministry.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
No, I agree.
So yeah, go off a little bit onour Savior.
What do you love about thecontext you're in right now?
Speaker 2 (34:29):
Oh, man, it is I.
First I would just say that anychurch that my kids love, I
love, amen, and that's just.
That is not a theologicalstatement, but just that's the
heart of a father Like I want mykids to love Jesus.
And if they love Jesus here andthey feel loved in healthy ways
(34:51):
, like it's all I want, welldone For them.
But if you pinpoint it right,it is.
We have a really greatexpression of the unity in
Christ.
You know, something you mightwonder about the Northwest is
there might be some differingperspectives from many LCMS
(35:13):
areas and we do have differentall sorts of perspectives in our
congregation and politicalthoughts and all of that.
But it's really there's areally strong unity in Jesus and
you know we can disagree aboutall sorts of things and it's not
that big of a deal.
(35:34):
We can get over hurts, we canforgive, we can move forward
together because of Jesus and Ilove the unity in that and I
love the way it's lived out.
Right, it's not something wesay.
And if you were to ask ourchurch something we say, and if,
if you were to ask our church,like if you asked our church, if
(35:56):
, if that's, you know, thehallmark of our church.
They'd be like no, that's ourmission statement.
Love God, love people, livelike Jesus.
They'd be like that's whatwe're about, but just as a
pastor looking, looking in on it, like that is so cool that they
value being the people of Godmore than being a person with
(36:17):
opinions.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
That's really good.
A lot of times we talk unityand we think it's a soft trait,
right, and there is a softnessand a gentleness to it because
it requires us to kind of openourselves up to differing
opinions.
But it was and I think stillthe fuel for the mission of God.
I mean Jesus' last words inJohn's gospel, in the high
(36:41):
priestly prayer.
I mean it is a prayer for unity.
He's been very honest with thedisciples about what's going to
happen.
They're going to hate you, theworld.
Some are going to think thatthey're doing a service to God
when they persecute and put youto death.
In this world.
You will have tribulation, buthave great courage.
I've overcome the world and nowthis is eternal life.
(37:05):
Verse three that they know you,the one true God.
This is John 17,.
Verse three.
And me, the one who has beensent, jesus, the Son of God.
And then, as you sent me, fatherthis is verse 18 of the High
Priestly Prayer as you sent meinto the world, so I am sending
them, and the world will know us, father, by the way they love
(37:30):
one another, by their unityaround the gospel and the clear
proclamation of what I've doneand the clear proclamation that
leads toward an active, robust,humble-filled love, right, this
robust agape type of love thatthey would see us caring for one
another deeply through the upsand downs of life.
(37:51):
This kind of moves into thediscipleship conversation.
A lot of times we may pitdiscipleship and evangelism
almost against one another, thekind of sending nature of the
church against kind of theinternal focus nature of the
church.
I see it's two sides of thesame coin, that when we love and
(38:12):
care for one another, when wegrow deeper in love with the
word of God and the way of Jesus, that is the fuel for
evangelism.
Discipleship, deep love for oneanother, fuels our love for the
world, those who are far fromGod.
Any thoughts about discipleship, how you define it and how it
connects to mission Matt?
Speaker 2 (38:33):
Oh man it.
You mentioned evangelism,discipleship.
They are, they have the sameengine.
I think you actually get both.
I don't think they're.
You know, I think it's reallyhard to just get one of them.
One of them Agree.
(39:00):
So everything, though, it isjust that centering on Jesus,
right, it's centered on Christ,and that's I mean.
I think what we forget indiscipleship is that the gospel
is still the power of that.
It's not.
Sometimes we think, right, thegospel is the good news that we
bring to Christ, that brings usto Christ and draws us to him
(39:20):
and connects us to him, and thenwe've got to figure it out.
And no, the gospel is thesource of life each and every
day, and so, in all that we do,in all that we teach, in all
that we preach, it's the gospel,right, it's Jesus Christ alone
(39:43):
and being centered on him thatfuels everything else.
And so I, you know, when wetalk here about discipleship, we
talk a lot about it is centeredon Christ and clothed in Christ
.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
That's good.
I love that.
So you guys have a pretty tightkind of mission statement and
kind of focus for your ministry.
What are you inviting everyfollower of Jesus at Our Savior
to be about?
Matt?
Speaker 2 (40:19):
Oh, man, we want people to love God, love people,
live like Jesus.
But what we I mean specificallywhat we do with that is we want
people to worship together.
We want them to connect in asmaller group of some sort, to
be around the word of Godtogether with others, to have
that community that's based inthe gospel and then serving.
(40:44):
We're very focused on ourcommunity and not so much of
like man.
We need to be that incrediblecommunity church.
Right, it's not.
We want to show you know,here's the stats and look at all
(41:05):
we've done.
Right, it's not anything ofthat.
It is.
We want to love our communityand our community has needs.
There are things that we can doand in our little part of, in
corner of the kingdom here, wewant to do those things and be
faithful in that.
And so outreach.
(41:27):
You know that that type ofwe're going to, we're going to
serve and not expect anything inreturn.
It's something that we'vereally, really emphasized a lot.
But, yeah, those are.
That's good In some ways.
I mean, honestly, we're notlike an innovative church.
We just have Jesus at thecenter and try to keep him there
(41:50):
.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
Well, what you stated , the three invitations from
there.
Well, what you stated, thethree invitations it is exactly
what.
Like most every church I don'tcare if you're Lutheran,
non-denom like there are threethings and it really orients.
This is a shout out to DrDetlef Schultz in his book
Mission from the Cross he's got.
He uses the flower metaphor,like the ecclesia is right there
(42:15):
in the middle and he has fourdifferent activities and he uses
the Latin words to make itsound like super.
But it's the liturgy, you knowit's, it's the liturgia, that
kind of thing.
And then there's the, the mercyor the martyrdom.
Work Right, the, the, thewitness work out in the world.
Work right, the witness workout in the world.
(42:39):
And that is a byproduct of ourservice, our sending being light
out into the community.
But we're always doing thatwith fellowship, with deep care
for one another.
The diakona, the service for thecleaning tables, taking care,
waiting on tables, from Acts,chapter six, so that the
preaching of the word couldcontinue to go, go forth Like
this is your three things.
(43:01):
Or if you say there's, maybeyou could add maybe this robust
witness, like if, if you were tosay church, like small group
worship service, and then youcould have a diagram that says
like all of this is in serviceof the sending of the spirit
through the body of Christ outinto the world.
The world would see a group ofpeople that deeply love one
(43:24):
another and live the Jesus way,like it always fuels.
It always fuels a mission.
So if people let me make onefinal comment If people think
this is like you've sold out tochurch growth movement, I could
make, as I've just done rightnow, the case that this is what
the early church did.
They continued to gathertogether temple courts, house to
(43:45):
house the Acts chapter 2 model.
They ate together, theyfellowshiped with one another
and then they went out andproclaimed the gospel.
Young and old and all differenttypes of people were active in
proclaiming the gospel, fueledby the Holy Spirit.
This is simply the way of Jesusconnected to the church and we
see that model in Acts.
Anything more to say there,matt?
Speaker 2 (44:06):
Yeah, you can pick whatever model you want, right?
Sure, yeah, and there's allsorts of ways to do it.
There's not one way in thechurch to do things.
And that's beautiful, that'sgreat.
I love that.
There's more than one way tominister to people and spread
the gospel, but it no matterwhat it is it all comes back to
(44:31):
is it rooted in Christ andclothed in Christ?
And, and that's it.
If people are asking like, hey,so what's the answer?
That's the answer Rooted inChrist, clothed in Christ, like,
if you don't have that andwe've all experienced that in
churches that we've been part ofat times of like, well, we say
(44:52):
we're about these things, butthey don't seem to work, or we
don't really seem to be aboutthem, or they look good on the
wall or on paper, and if it'srooted in Christ and clothed in
Christ, that's it.
That's all that happened in theearly church.
Speaker 1 (45:09):
Well, yeah, that's exactly right and it had a
multiplying effect as it wentforward.
I mean, I'm going to doubledown and you're less
pastor-centric.
There's no one.
You don't have to call it smallgroups or whatever, but are you
raising up other leaders, otherproclaimers, and identifying
those that are teachers in yourmidst that can share the
(45:32):
discipleship opportunity thatyou have?
If Jesus only had three, andthen 12, and then 70, and we
know, sociologically, a humanbeing can only have really deep
relationships with a hundredpeople, like a deep, deep
relationship, who are we tothink that we can disciple
congregations of five, six, youknow, 2000,.
A lot of our congregations juststay at that size because
(45:52):
that's the ability of the pastorto disciple.
But if you said, yeah, I candisciple this group of folks who
are leading, but I'm going todisciple them toward something,
toward ascending, toward aleadership responsibility, and I
don't care in the meantime,whatever you call the gathering,
the influence that that leaderhas over the next group.
We just choose to call it smallgroups, smaller faith
(46:16):
communities who are deepeningtheir love for one another,
centered in the word, and goingout on mission to make him known
in their various vocations.
That's, that's it.
So anyway, matt, I love that.
I love that conversation.
Last last talking point, youwere a DCE that evolved into a
pastor.
That's a normal progression, Ithink, for a lot of younger
(46:40):
leaders, and that's not a slightto those that are lifetime kind
of youth pastors DCEs in ourcontext, directors of Christian
education, if you're wonderingwhat that acronym means.
How has youth ministry, though,changed?
And I'm asking this on theheels of just completing the
book the Anxious Generation,which, when you start talking
(47:02):
about, we always look at thenegative things.
There are some struggles ofbeing a young person today that
you and I didn't have when wewere growing up in the 80s and
90s.
It's very different.
So let's talk about castingvision for discipling the next
Jan as we close here, matt.
Speaker 2 (47:20):
Yeah, you know, I actually have one.
I feel like I have one of thebest opportunities as a pastor.
I still get to do a lot of DCEtype stuff and I just get to
live in both worlds.
I have a foot in both kingdoms,if we want to keep the kingdom
metaphor going.
But it's really cool to walkalongside.
(47:43):
I walk alongside families morenow, but, I mentioned earlier,
teens definitely have the everyvoice matters context, which is
totally different.
But teens also live in a lot inmany multiple contexts.
Right, it's not just like home,school, church, they've got
(48:07):
extracurriculars, they've gotdigital.
It's amazing to me, like in ourteenagers in our house, how
many people they know indifferent spaces.
Right, like and just in ourcommunity.
Like, I'm like, how do you knowthose?
How do you know those kids Like, oh well, they're friends with
(48:30):
this person or they go to churchwith this person or they've got
, I mean, their networkingability, is it?
It's wild.
You know, I'm like, I thinkabout it, I'm not, I'm not as
extroverted as as a lot, and soI'm like, why are you talking to
those people?
Like, let's lead a quiet lifeand and get home, but that's,
(48:54):
that's really somethingsignificant with them, but their
challenge is so much, with allthat exposure, it's the
information overload.
It's not about findinginformation, it's about using it
.
It's about figuring out whattruth actually is.
Figuring out what truthactually is Figuring out how do
(49:16):
I use this information?
The internet's great, but Ithink for people like you and I,
people of the age of you and I,like in our 40s, when we apply
the way we think and grew upthinking and were taught to
(49:37):
think to this context, there areso many things that we think
through and process throughabout what we might read or
consume on the Internet, rightLike there's just I mean, we had
to do like bibliographies andall sorts of fact checking and
encyclopedias, all that stuff,and we just there's a different
(50:02):
discipline to that and that'ssomething that I I see in our
younger generation, that theystruggle with is developing how
do I distinguish truth?
I know you talk to any of ourteachers that teach young people
and they'll talk about.
It's not about memorizing stuffanymore, it's about how do you
(50:23):
distinguish the truth.
How do you use the informationthat's at your disposal?
Speaker 1 (50:30):
Well, no, let's pause on that.
How does the Bible I mean thesource of truth that points us
to truth and flesh how does thatdynamic?
Potentially, when you've got somany different perspectives,
you can look up so manydifferent perspectives on Jesus,
(50:51):
on the Bible, how the Biblecame together and how have you
tried to help people?
Because I think our apologeticI guess this is a question our
apologetic today is differentthan it was, um, when we were
growing up.
Anything more to say there,matt?
Speaker 2 (51:07):
Oh yeah, man, our apologetics, so different, right
, Like, uh, back in, you know,the back in the last century.
Uh, the you know the big pushwas right.
You got to know more facts andyou're going to.
This is how you win an argumentor win a discussion or a debate
.
And faith, really thediscussion, the collision of
(51:31):
faith or theologies orphilosophies that's where it
lived was in the academic.
The collision of face ortheologies or philosophies
that's where it lived was in theacademic.
But it's shifted, it's movednow into a realm that's.
You know, we have to be alittle, you know, have both
(51:52):
brains working, the left and theright brain on it.
We can't just be on.
Here's all the facts.
But you know, I think it comesback to you know what Paul
writes.
You know, like, what is, whatare all these gifts if I don't
have love, right?
What is all the reason, all thetalents, if I don't have the
(52:14):
love of God?
And I think that's somethingour culture has shifted to, to
being a little more holistic inthe way we process information
and think about truth.
It's different, but I don'tknow that I would label it a bad
(52:36):
thing.
I think it challenges us to saynot just what is the truth.
But how does the truth changeme?
How does the truth of thegospel change my heart and my
life?
And not so I can be glorious,not that I can be perfected, but
(52:59):
how is Jesus alive in me eachand every day?
I think that's something ourworld today is going to become
more open to, and I'm pretty Idon't know I'm pretty excited
about the future of the church.
I'm not really, you know, thechurch is done Like we had our
(53:24):
glory day, that's.
I just don't live there.
Speaker 1 (53:28):
Yeah, well, that's good, that's an awful place to
live, so never live there.
You gotta have a hope.
It's a fuel for our work nowand obviously, into the day that
Jesus returns to make allthings new.
I think in the postmoderncontext to just add a little bit
of my thoughts.
In the postmodern context ithas some pluses and minuses and
(53:50):
you can say there may be arevert back to a pre-modern
context today, but I'll justhold on post-modernity being
like firmly entrenched.
What is truth?
And if we're totally trying toargue and engage our thinking
system but we're arguing settingoff our feeling system, we're
(54:12):
going to totally, totally missit feeling system.
We're going to totally, totallymiss it.
And so can our young peoplelook at the church and the cause
.
You can be right in all thewrong ways, will they?
Will they look at the way wetalk about truth and experience?
Wow, I could belong there withthat group of people because
they're actively wrestling.
There's a, there's a humility toeven the way they talk about
(54:34):
things they firmly believe in,because it's not them who have
grasped it, it's God who hasgrasped them.
I mean, this is just our goodpassive faith, theology.
And now we're on the journeyand a lot of people kind of make
fun of that language journey,but it is helpful.
I'm growing up into Jesus andI'm learning what really really
(54:57):
matters, the things that arecore to me, my values as a
follower of Jesus.
At the top of that, it must belove.
It must be God's desire to notlabel our enemies as our enemies
.
There's only one enemy.
He's Satan, and God's desirethrough us is that all of his
(55:17):
kids would give back I say thatoften and I just think that has
to be the humble mindset todayand to engage the feeling center
before the thinking center.
Anything more to add to that,matt.
Speaker 2 (55:30):
Yeah, man, I think in the apologetic side, I think we
also need to be patient with itin a way we haven't in the past
.
I think we've.
You know, the way we'veapproached in the past is you
just need to know the rightanswers.
And if you have the rightanswers you'll logically
conclude this is the truth andJesus is the way, and Jesus is
(56:27):
the way.
I think that I think it's alittle insulting to the
complexity and details and way.
Years ago, apologetics was aboutconvincing people that what
they had grown up with and beentold was the truth actually is
still the truth.
And now you know you're movinginto a space.
I think living in the PacificNorthwest has a little bit of a
(56:58):
glimpse into this, more so thansome other areas of the country
where I think we're past thepoint up here where the majority
is in a I'm hurt by the churchtype of thing, into a I just
don't know Like I think we're acouple generations into being
de-churched and so there's noteven a foundation to say here's
why that was right, Right, andif you have that foundation,
like that foundation wasattached in those generations'
lives, it was, you know, theyhad parents, grandparents
connected in that.
But you know, here I would sayit's less likely to have a
(57:25):
family legacy of faith.
And so there's just curiosity,there's confusion, but there's
openness, right, I just don'tknow about it.
Yeah, so you're connecting on adifferent level.
Speaker 1 (57:45):
You are, and I think that was the call of the early
church, especially as they movedinto the Gentile waters.
Right yeah, let me tell youabout this unknown God Gentile
waters, right yeah, let me tellyou about this unknown God.
Go ahead, yeah.
Speaker 2 (57:58):
Yeah, no, I mean, you're exactly right.
Like that you read Acts andyou're like this doesn't look
anything like what I think I'mexperiencing now and I maybe I
chuckle at it a little bit, but15 years ago there was that big
movement in the church of we gotto get back to being like the
(58:19):
early church and it's like thisis what the early church is.
It's in different cultures,it's in places where the Lord
isn't known and that's where theLord sends us.
Speaker 1 (58:33):
Yeah, I remember, wasn't it the Gentile conversion
?
I think it's Peter that goes.
And hey, we were baptized.
How were you baptized?
Oh, it was John's baptism.
We'd not even heard there wasthis baptism in the Holy Spirit,
in the name of the triune God.
Well, let me tell you about that.
I mean, it's that sort ofclarity, but there's a kindness
to it.
And, uh, every single week andwe're we're probably a half a
(58:58):
generation, not a fullgeneration here and cause we
still have some Midwestinfluences in in the Arizona
context, people that havemulti-generation Lutherans et
cetera.
So they have certainexpectations.
But we're also influenced by alot of a lot of pre-Christians,
a lot of folks, younger people.
We have this is wild in ourschool, matt.
So we have about 500 kidspreschool through kind of a
(59:21):
hybrid high school model, 500kids on our campus Monday
through Friday and 100 of themstate they don't have a church.
So we have, and they gotyounger parents too.
Probably early thirties is theaverage age Like that's a prime
mission field for starting justa normal conversation around
(59:42):
around Jesus, around life, justgetting to know them.
And we've got a great strategy,led by one of our discipleship
pastors, to like let's, let's beabout that and and not not
going out trying to argue, justgoing out and love to get to
know the person and when theHoly Spirit opens the door,
which he will, you give a reasonfor the hope that you have, but
(01:00:04):
do so with respect, withkindness and respect.
I think is what Peter saysright Is there's a humility to
the way we talk about what istruth.
So this has been so much fun.
Last question I had one more,so this has been so much fun.
Last question I had one more.
I just want to close with thisFavorite Jesus story in the
Bible and why.
Speaker 2 (01:00:20):
Matt, Simple man, Prodigal son, Love the lost son.
I just think it's applicable toeverybody.
I think that the handles inthat are ones that anybody can
grasp.
Everybody has a story abouttheir father, whether they, you
(01:00:44):
know, had this really richrelationship or they never knew
their father.
Everybody gets that Like thatis something just in our design.
Like that is something just inour design.
And the way the father istowards both sons, which I feel
(01:01:05):
like I can be both sons in thesame day, it's so graceful,
right it is.
It's like the purestillustration of grace that just
connects to every heart.
I know Like there's even themost hardened bitter person
could hear that and be like Idon't believe any of it.
(01:01:31):
Blah, blah, blah, blah.
But it talks about somethingthat I know, that I want in my
life and I wish I had.
I just think it's such abeautiful, beautiful story.
So yeah.
What about you?
What's your favorite?
Speaker 1 (01:01:50):
Well, yeah, I've doubled down on that too.
I mean, we need to party whenlost kids come back home, you
know.
Speaker 2 (01:01:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:01:57):
That's my favorite part.
And to celebrate them and toreject the older son tendency,
that's my favorite story.
Well, the whole book isfantastic.
The life story has been Luke 10for me Jesus sending out, after
sending out the 12, sending outthe 70, with his authority to
(01:02:20):
cast out demons, to care for thepoor and to proclaim the
kingdom of God and to heal thesick.
And they come back and theykind of have this arrogant kind
of posture toward Jesus.
They want to tell Jesus all theamazing things they did, which
were amazing to be sure.
But then he says don't rejoicein that, rejoice that your names
are written in the kingdom.
(01:02:41):
I think there's so many likeleadership lessons, humility,
like you get to be a part ofthis thing, but don't think it's
about you or you're my power ofstrength, this is all me and
this is all fueled by myauthority, which has been given
from heaven to you.
So mind your role, creaturerather than, rather than.
You're not the creator, I'm the, I'm the author of all things
(01:03:05):
and yet you get to play a smallpart in my big story.
So probably Luke 10 is one ofmy favorite.
But, man, it's hard to, it'shard to top the posture, the,
the heart of the lost son, andreally the entire chapter, which
is Luke 15, the lost coin andthe lost sheep, et cetera.
So this has been so much fun.
That's why this podcast existsin the ULC exists.
God has a mission to get all ofhis kids back and the church
has to play her role in, inwhere reformation needs to take
(01:03:27):
place, where listening, humilityneed to take place for
challenging conversations needto take place.
Leaders need to step into thatand do so with the kindness and
gentleness of Jesus.
Matt, if people want to connectwith you, how can they do?
Speaker 2 (01:03:37):
so, pastor Matt oslccom, I exist on social but
I'm at Matt Cario but I don'tknow.
I'm losing my social esteem.
Speaker 1 (01:03:53):
Yeah, me too.
I never really had it, to bequite honest, but nonetheless
it's a good day going.
Make it a great day.
Jesus loves you.
His mission is out in front ofyou Raise up the next generation
of Jesus followers to bring hislove, his word, his sacrament
to a dark and dying world.
The days are too short to doanything other than that.
Thanks so much for hanging withme today, matt.
You're a blessing.
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