Raising Jesus Followers in an Anxious Generation

Through honest conversation about modern parenting challenges, Adam Griffin shares how Christian families can create a discipleship-centered home culture that nurtures genuine faith in children while freeing parents from perfectionistic anxiety.

• Anxiety in middle-class American parenting stems from making everything important and measurable
• The gospel offers freedom from perfectionism without lowering standards
• Family discipleship doesn't require theological expertise—just willingness to grow alongside your children
• Modeling faith requires being both reliable (consistent) and relatable (connected)
• Creating intentional rhythms (daily Bible reading, prayer, special monthly one-on-ones) builds discipleship culture
• Biblical patience means resilience and tenacity, not just waiting quietly
• True discipleship happens in relationship, not through programs or mere information transfer
• Raising up leaders in local churches should mirror Jesus' relational approach to developing disciples

Explore more resources at familydiscipleship.com, including the Family Discipleship Podcast and Adam's upcoming book "Good News for Parents."

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
But in the kind of middle class American mindset
there's a lot of anxiety, and alot of what it comes from is we
make everything important.
Everything important has apressure to do it perfectly.
So for parents, parenting isimportant, so then you feel this
pressure to do so perfectly foryour kid growing up.
Every test, every sport, makingthe team being acceptable,

(00:21):
being pretty enough, beingdressed well enough, making it
on YouTube or TikTok havingenough views, having enough
likes Everything is measurableand therefore it's important
that somebody else has measuredyou and found you to be worthy.

Speaker 2 (00:38):
Welcome to the Tim Mahmoud Podcast.
It's a beautiful day to bealive and I pray.
You got your water.
You're taking this in themorning.
You got your water, you'removing your body, you're getting
ready for the adventure whichis this day, which the Lord has
made.
Rejoice and be glad in it andall the people that are around
you.
Life is all about relationship,right, and I love doing
podcasts because I get to meetnew people and make connections.

(01:00):
And the new person that I justmet through the screen is my
brother in Christ, adam Griffin.
If that name sounds familiarand you're connected to Link in
some way, shape or form, yes,adam is Ben Griffin's brother,
and let me tell you a little bitabout him before we get going.
He went to Southern BaptistSeminary.

(01:20):
He has a doctorate ineducational ministry.
He has been the lead pastor atEastside Community Church.
He has been the lead pastor atEastside Community Church.
He is currently the lead pastorat Eastside Community Church in
East Dallas.
He served as an elder andspiritual formation pastor at
the Village Church.
If that sounds familiar, it'sbecause that is where Matt
Chandler has served for a numberof years, and he also

(01:41):
co-authored with Matt Chandler abook we're going to be talking
about called Family Discipleship, leading your Home Through Time
, moments and Milestones.
How are you doing, adam?
Thanks for hanging with metoday, buddy, no.

Speaker 1 (01:53):
I'm doing great.
It's great to meet you andthanks for having me on, tim.
It's an honor to be here.

Speaker 2 (01:57):
Yeah, man.
Well, a couple things before weget into the book.
What was it like serving withI'm sure everybody asked you
that with Matt Chandler,especially gosh, a decade ago in
my I've been a pastor now 18years In my early years.
I mean Matt Chandler'severywhere.
He's in all the devotion.
I know he's still doing that,but it sounds like in some of
your years, like he was thecelebrity pastor, status was

(02:18):
kind of falling upon him in someregard.
So were you right there duringthat season with him?

Speaker 1 (02:22):
Yeah, I met Matt.
We both started ministry in thesame town at about the same
time, about 20 years ago, and Iwas a youth minister at another
church in town.
He was brand new.
I was doing young life outreachwith teenagers in the schools
and we would bring our studentsto Saturday night services.
I met Matt probably at aStarbucks, when I was just
trying to minister to kids andhe was trying to minister to men
and we were in a small suburbwhere a lot of the men would

(02:49):
leave town to work during theday and he and I would still see
each other at restaurants andwe were the men that were left,
you know, left behind.
And so I've I I'd like to say Iprobably knew Matt before.
He was much of a celebrity.
Matt's never seemed like acelebrity because of that to me,
but I get that like there's a,there's an echelon of celebrity
pastor ism that he definitelylike he's known, he's well-known
.
People will send me a picturewhen they see him in the airport

(03:10):
.
I'm like, yep, that's a, that'sMatt.
There he is, you know, Uh, butto me he's just been a friend
and a pastor and I'm I'mgrateful for his ministry.
I learned a lot in my years atthe village.

Speaker 2 (03:20):
Uh yeah, so much to say here.
I and again I'm prettyconservative We'll get to know
one another theologically, youcould say politically, etc.
I'm pretty conservative andthere's a conservative part of
me that is like I don't like thewhole celebrity thing, which

(03:40):
sounds weird for a guy to saywho does a podcast and whatever,
but it just feels so kind ofstrange.
And maybe one of the goodthings I get your take on this,
maybe one of the good things inCOVID in every pastor having to
have some sort of a persona ononline.
Hopefully it's an authentic,you know persona, consistent

(04:02):
persona, but maybe maybe that'skind of leveling the playing
field.
Now, um, and, and maybe that'sa maybe every pastor has to be a
pastor online.
There are people that I get topastor that I see face to face
and there's others that I get tobe a pastor for that I don't
see as consistently.
I pray they have a face-to-facerelationship with someone who
gets to tell them about Jesus,for sure.

(04:23):
But, yeah, any kind of take onthe times regarding kind of the
celebrity pastor kind of stuff.

Speaker 1 (04:29):
Yeah, you know, I think a distinction this is
actually really helpful betweenMatt and a lot of men that I
know that are celebrity pastors.
Matt's intention, nor his goalsin life were never celebrity,
were never fame.
In many ways you could say hecan't help it that a lot of
people want to hear him preach.
He didn't pursue that.

(04:50):
He didn't try to grow a bigaudience.
He hasn't tried to grow aplatform where he can be more
accessible to more people.
There are those men out therethat are trying to create
content on social media, thatare trying to create a platform
for themselves by which theygain in notoriety and fame and
they earn all their book salesback to them.

(05:10):
For instance, like the bookwe're talking about today, if
you read the copyright on that,it is owned by the Village
Church.
It's not owned by Adam Griffin.
It's not owned by Matt Chandler.
You can buy a million copies ofthat book.
I don't make a dime.
And that's the philosophy of achurch that says we're not
making a celebrity out of thispastor, we're putting out a
resource that ministers topeople.
Now, so that's an importantdistinction.

(05:31):
I would say for Matt's sake.
Matt is the man off the stagethat you'd hope he is, that he
is a godly man.
He is funnier off the stagethan on it.
He loves his wife, he loves hiskids.
That is not always the case.
I've been around a lot of menwho, not only in secret but in
public, off the platform, arenot who you would hope they
would be, and so there'sdefinitely a distinction there

(05:52):
and, at the same time, man.
I'm grateful for a man likeCharles Spurgeon, who was a very
famous pastor and you could sayat the time, a celebrity, and
there's more words in Englishprinted from that man than just
about anybody else, and aren'twe grateful for that.
Or, tim, in your doctrinalbackground, would we call Martin
Luther a celebrity pastor?
He called out the Pope, he putit on the Wittenberg door.

(06:14):
He said come talk to me, pope.
I don't think he was pursuingfame, though he was pursuing, I
think, doctrinal purity, likemany of the reformers we'd look
at, and that brought him fame,that made his words go further.
And so you have to go.
How responsible is this manbeing with the mantle God has
given him?
So if he was given the fivetalents and I was given the half

(06:34):
a talent, it's great that he'sgiven five talents and he does
something great with it.
And Matt is a man like any ofus.
He'll make mistakes.
He's a sinner, I'm a sinner.
The difference is when, if hemakes mistakes, they are
manifold.
You know they're out there.
Similar, the difference betweena Sunday school teacher and an
elder is like when a Sundayschool teacher gets removed for
something.
It may not be a huge deal tothe whole church as much as

(06:58):
maybe an elder or a pastor wouldbe, and his even more so.
The way he lives impacts theway people think about the
gospel.

Speaker 2 (07:05):
That's a big deal.
I don't care if you're leading10 people or 10,000 people like
we will be held accountable forour consistent witness to who
Jesus is.
And if you miss on character.
This is why, I mean, thepastoral epistles are all about
character.
It's not just about what you do, it's about how you live Right.
Character it's not just aboutwhat you do, it's about how you

(07:25):
live right and uh, and so yeah,praise me to god for uh, leaders
like matt and others that thatwe can.
You know the heart behindcelebrity, it's just.
There's certain people that arecarrying their mantle,
investing their talents,whatever you want to say, well,
and they should be, they shouldbe celebrated.
And you know, you look at theapostle paul, even right, follow
me as I follow christ.
There's not every part of methat is exactly like Jesus, but

(07:47):
the parts of me that are it'd begood if we started to model,
and that is the height ofleadership right, it's the heart
and mind, the character ofsomeone that we see, not
perfection, but glimpses of whoJesus is and how he leads, how
he loves, how he communicates,how he draws people near.
I was just we're, we're gettingready for Lent right now.
Adam um, putting together.

(08:10):
We do collaborative sermonwriting, super, it's super fun.
But there was an element ofJesus.
Obviously his celebrity statusonly took him so far because it
led him to a Roman cross right,all of his, all of the crowds
kind of dissipating.
But in Mark, chapter six, youknow he looked upon the masses,
probably 12,000, some people inthe feeding of the 5,000.
He says he has compassion onthem, right, splits them.

(08:30):
His heart is like open, wide forhim.
So I don't care if Jesus Jesuswas a celebrity and Jesus cared
for the crowds.
Jesus wanted to preach to thecrowds.
More there, Adam.

Speaker 1 (08:39):
Yeah, I think one of the things you see about Jesus
that undermines the celebrityculture.
Well, Jesus grows in fame,right, and even like the
messianic secret at thebeginning of Mark, he's going
hey, don't tell anybody, don'ttell anybody.
And then he becomes so famoushe can't travel from place to
place.
But one of the things you seein Christ that is pastoral, that
undermines the positional ideaof celebrity, is that Jesus

(09:03):
Christ would do things like goahead, disciples, I'll stay back
and dismiss the crowds.
As opposed to the culture thatkind of rubs us.
The wrong way in church is thatI'm going to go away.
Will you go dismiss the crowds?
Pastor, who says I'll be hidingin my office?
I'm too big time, I can't.
I can't interact with all thesepeople.
I can't possibly know them.
They'll just have my broadcastministry, They'll just have my

(09:24):
podcast ministry.
That was not what we saw inChrist.
We saw Christ who saw people,and the way he dismisses crowds
is the way I hope every pastoris right that if you don't know
your church, if you aren'tinteracting with your church,
how do you expect to care foryour church?

Speaker 2 (09:37):
Yeah, facts.
Well, this is going to be fun.
We're going to talk aboutdiscipleship, family
discipleship.
Let's get into your story.
How did you fall in love withdiscipleship in the family?
Tell a little bit more of thatstory, adam.

Speaker 1 (09:50):
Yeah, Well, you know I mentioned that I had done
student ministry right out ofcollege.
I went to Concordia University,wisconsin, and then I moved to
Flower Mound, texas, to dostudent ministry and loved
discipling younger men.
I was a single for all of my20s and just spent a lot of that
time discipling people read alot on discipleship, was
discipled, jumped into a lot ofmen's Bible studies, was just

(10:13):
studying, studying, studying andtrying to pour my life out into
others.
Then, as I became a father,that passion obviously kind of
narrowed and specialized in someways but didn't change all that
much.
In fact, the whole frameworkthat we use in this book is the
same framework you could use fordiscipling anybody, but it
narrowed to the way we discipleour sons and daughters and so we

(10:35):
started to think about that.
That was part of my role at thevillage.
I was overseeing our next-genministry how do we equip
families to think about the wayto disciple their kids?
So we try to codify that,clarify it, and that led to
Crossway wanting to publish thatwork.
That's the family to stop aship book.
But that one didn't come aslike.
Here's a good book idea.
It was what we're doing todisciple our families.
And then that's led.
You know, chelsea, my wife and Ido a podcast on this.

(10:56):
We do writing on this, but ourhope is not like we're not
expert parents, but we hope,hope that parents see their role
as disciple making.
We love to help parents thinkabout not just sleep schedules
and eating and school choice,although those are certainly
great parenting.
Things to discuss is how do Iimpart to my children my faith
and how do I continue to matureas I want to see them mature and
so that passion for life, onlife.

(11:18):
It's what Jesus did when he washere and it's what Jesus
demanded while he was here ofhis disciples.
So I'm just trying to followChrist right, like follow me as
I follow Christ, like you said,like Paul said, that's what I
want and Christ demanded anddemonstrated.
He declared and demonstratedmake disciples.
So I'm trying to do that and inthis book and in other places
that we do most of our ministrywe specialize about what it

(11:40):
looks like for moms and dads,grandpas and grandpas to think
about in their own homes.

Speaker 2 (11:44):
Well, that's where we're going to go.
Understanding the times is Igot a book on my shelf.
Our team's just walking throughthe anxious generation right
now.
Yeah, I'm sure you've taken alook at it.
How should parents understandthe times in which they're
raising their young Jesusfollowers right now?
And I guess maybe frame it upthis way what has not changed

(12:06):
and what has changed as we're?
Raising up the next gen.

Speaker 1 (12:10):
Yeah, I think there's a lot of arguments for what has
not changed, in the sense that,like even you know, in ancient
Greece, they're complainingabout teenagers and in some
sense, we're always looking atthe next generation saying like,
oh, is there any hope?
You know?
But they grow up, they becomemen and women and there's always
been a desire for God's peopleto be intentional.
In Deuteronomy 6, when Moses istelling people to invest in

(12:33):
their children and tell them tolove God above all things, he's
saying it to a new generation.
The old generation died out inthe wilderness because they were
unfaithful, and there's notthis new generation that becomes
super faithful.
Joshua leads the nextgeneration and they're
unfaithful.
And then there's another groupand you'd imagine that each one
of those groups is looking atthe teenagers, going, oh, this
is not going to go well.

(12:53):
And then some grow up and somebecome like a Noah who are going
even if nobody else isfollowing God, I'm going to
follow God, and that's beautiful.
They shine like stars in atwisted generation and others go
the way.
They conform to the pattern ofthis world, to use Paul's
language.
But what has changed Tim inbooks like the Anxious
Generation?
Technology has changed things.

(13:15):
Social media has changed things.
The pervasive lack ofresilience in a generation that
we try to keep happy all thetime has led to a anxiety around
keeping what we want or losingwhat we have, and part of it's
the style of parenting thatwe're in right now.
This generation as a responseto the generation behind us.
It's really not necessarily aglobal thing.

(13:38):
We're talking really about theculture that you and I find
ourselves in, tim.
So we find ourselves in ananxious generation, but I think
a lot of people in differentsocioeconomic status, even in
our own country, may find thatto be kind of foreign to them,
but definitely in other nationswould find it foreign.
But in the kind of middle-classAmerican mindset there's a lot

(13:59):
of anxiety and a lot of what itcomes from is we make everything
important.
Everything important has apressure to do it perfectly.
So for parents, oh, parentingis important.
So then you feel this pressureto do so perfectly For your kid
growing up.
Every test, every sport, makingthe team being acceptable,
being pretty enough, beingdressed well enough, making it

(14:21):
on YouTube or TikTok, havingenough views, having enough
likes Everything is measurableand therefore it's important
that somebody else has measuredyou and found you to be worthy.
My wife would say it like thisthat humanity is desperately
seeking justification.
We're desperately seekingjustification in so many places
and so we're anxious everywherewe look for it If we're looking

(14:42):
for it outside of Christ.
And so, in fact, the book thatwe have coming out this fall
called Good News for Parents,which is kind of like a
companion piece to that bookthat's already out Family
Discipleship is about that idea.
Like you can read a book likeFamily Discipleship that gives
you a framework for how todisciple your kids, and you walk
away from it going oh mygoodness, look what I'm not
doing.
Oh, I feel terrible about whatI'm doing.
I just don don't.

(15:06):
Oh, you're under pressure,you're under stress, and the
gospel is not a burden thatweighs people down.
That's the way the Phariseeswork is described.
Christ talks about releasingburdens, setting people free not
to do whatever we want.
But the freedom is to give ourbest portion.
It's the able work that says Ican bring my best portion and
trust God with it, and it's thecane work that says I have to be
anxious.
God may not give me myattention.
I'm giving him kind of my worstbecause I want to keep my best.
Oh man, we are free to say Ican give God my best, I can do

(15:31):
my best, and I'm forgiven forwhen I fall short.
But I get to walk free ofthings like anxiety because I
walk in peace, because I walkwith patience, because I walk
with gentleness and faithfulness.
That's what comes from walkingwith God, and so that's a little
bit of what's used to be, alittle bit of what's changed,

(15:51):
but there's a lot more to that.
I'm sure as you've read thatbook, even as it covers religion
, you've seen some of how thisgeneration can be really clearly
defined by our sense of.
I don't have enough.

Speaker 2 (15:57):
Yes, adam, so many things there.
Could you say more?
I a hundred percent agreeLiving in the gospel of Jesus
Christ and the freedom that heoffers by the power of his Holy
Spirit.
It does not, it cannot produceanger or anxiety.
We can acknowledge when we havethose moments, but it is for

(16:18):
freedom.
Christ came to set you free.
He's the Prince of Peace and hemakes you his dwelling place
and he gives you over over thetop mercy and grace.
That's undeserved, and so it'sreally the sanctified journey in
our kind.
What does it look like now towalk in step with the Holy
Spirit, to daily die to self, tobe raised up anew, and it
really all goes back to identity.

(16:39):
I am enough.
I was talking to because hesays so, right, I was talking to
a brother the other day.
More theology into philosophy.
But the first naivety isthinking that I have to, or the
first half of life is buildingup the appropriate sense of self
, right, and we all have to havethat.
I'm okay, oh, and I do have avoice and I do have gifts.

(17:03):
The second half of life hetitled as the second naivete.
It's kind of this, you'recoming back home again, but it's
deeper, it's richer.
The voice of God is morepresent in your life.
Your communion, your intimacywith God is richer.
But it really comes back to thesame place, which is which is
I'm enough in Jesus.

(17:24):
He said, he said Jesus.
He said it.
I believe it.
He's claimed me for us in thewaters of baptism.
He set us free.
We've been washed, the old selfhas been washed and we've been
raised up again, day by day.
This is one of the best partsof Luther.
It's a daily remembrance ofbaptism, a daily remembrance of
our identity in Jesus Christ.
But it's so much richer and itgives us a freedom as a parent.
So to get to my main questionhere, as a parent, to say, you

(17:47):
know what, I can look back andsay, yeah, would I have, should
I have?
Yeah, probably, it's all givento the cross of Jesus Christ.
I've been crucified with him.
He's taken it all and now I'mjust putting in the right next
steps, just kind of to layer inthese maybe holy habits of how I
want to care for my kids, lovethem.
But I would love give people,if you would, just a little bit

(18:12):
more of a sneak peek into thisnew book on parenting that's
coming out.
You say that parents aredefined by a pursuit of
perfection and that?
Is there anything more aboutparenting today?
Some trends we're seeing inparents in the US, especially in
the middle class.

Speaker 1 (18:24):
Yeah, thanks for asking, tim.
I think there's a couple ofthings that you can really see
really easily if you give kindof a spectrum of the best
parenting advice we get.
So, tim, if I said, how old areyour kids?
Tim, you have kids.

Speaker 2 (18:35):
All in high school, bro.
They're 18, 16, 15.

Speaker 1 (18:38):
Yeah, nice, okay.
So you've been around the block.
You know about this.
If somebody says, hey, the keyto being a good high school dad
is to stay involved in yourkid's life, and you go, oh
praise God, that's good advice.
And then somebody will comeright next to them and say, hey,
the key to being a good highschool dad is don't get
over-involved in your kid's life.
And they'll say, hey, you needto remain a friend, but stay a
parent.
You need to be really stern,but never scary.

(19:00):
And they start to give you allthese kind of like hey, which
which way do you want me to leanhere?
Cause you're painting a pictureof a spectrum on which, like,
the best advice is the extremes,is the polar opposites, and I
don't.
I don't know what to do withthat.
That's what makes parenting sohard is I can feel guilty, no
matter what I'm doing.
If I'm super involved in mykid's life, am I too friendly
with them?
Am I if I'm too removed fromthem?

(19:21):
Am I too stern with them?
And at the end of the day, ourkids might resent us for our
best efforts.
Your best parenting advicemight be what drives your kid up
a wall and maybe what drivesthem to counseling one day.
And you'll say I still stand bythat and that's what makes
parenting practically impossibleto get absolutely perfect.
But because we feel thispressure to get it absolutely

(19:42):
perfect, because it is soimportant, it drives us to
things like you said thatanxiety is actually not a fruit
of the spirit, that if I'mwalking with the Lord as I'm
parenting, the fruit of thatwalk is not anxiety, it's not
fear, it's not dread, it's notexhaustion even, but the fruit
of the spirit comes in thingslike patience.
I love to talk about patiencewith parents.

(20:04):
We have a chapter in this newbook on patience that I hope
really helps people understand adistinction.
When we're talking aboutpatience and parenting, we often
think about the ability to waitquietly.
Can you wait quietly when theword patience in some
translations it's translatedlong-suffering, in some it's
forbearance, it's the ability toput up with a lot?

(20:24):
That's what patience means.
And so if the fruit of thespirit is, hey, my kid can be an
absolute nightmare and I canstill keep going, why?
Because the fruit of the spiritis patience.
It's not just hey, be quiet andstop bothering me.
That's not patient.
No, patience is grit, patienceis tenacity.
Patience is the ability to facesomething and keep going.
It's the resilience that thisgeneration typically lacks.

(20:47):
We want our kids to be patient,and then we hand a screen to
them and say what I mean by bepatient is be quiet.
No, no, no.
I want them to be patient.
That means I want you to beable to do this without needing
a screen, without needing apacifier, in whatever form it
comes now, as an iPad or a phoneor a watch.
I want you to be able to put upwith being bored for a little
bit.
That's how we learn patience,in other words, resilience.
I want you to face somethingdifficult and overcome it.

(21:07):
I want you to be grateful andnot entitled.
Well, where do those things comefrom?
Well, parents can create,foster inequity.
It's another.
I mean, I'm doing the samething Hypocritically.
I'm saying there's going to betimes where you let your kid
face the natural consequences oftheir bad choices and there's
going to be times you rescuethem from them, and both of
those are true.
Here's some good parentingadvice Sometimes, let your kids

(21:28):
fail.
Sometimes, don't let them failright Again.
That can drive you bananas.
But what are you doing that?
You're trying to findopportunities to help them grow,
to help them mature, and youget to walk free from shame and
guilt and, at the same time,that freedom from shame and
guilt doesn't give you licenseto lower the bar for yourself.
And so now I don't need to trythat hard, now I don't need to

(21:49):
give it my best.
Freedom in the scriptures nevercalls the believer to say
therefore, should we sin all themore?
By no means right.
Therefore, should we give up ongiving our best?
Well, when Moses says, hey, youcan do this, this is not too
hard for you.
Do we go?
Oh, I guess it's easy.
No, he calls us to do what?
To diligently care for our ownsouls, to diligently impress

(22:14):
these things on our children.
And the word diligence thatMoses uses in his speech in
Deuteronomy implies this isgoing to be hard work, you're
going to do it over a longperiod of time, you're not going
to give up at it, and that'swhy this is not too hard for you
.
He's saying to the people ofIsrael you can do this and all
of it.
We believe to him it's notbecause there's inherent
strength in me that I'm able toovercome.
It's not enough self-esteem,it's not enough merit, it's
certainly not meritorioussalvation.

(22:35):
What I believe is because I'mempowered by an all-powerful God
to do what he's called me to do.
What do I have to fear?
If God is for me, who can beagainst me?
And that's the strength of theparent.
That's where I find my rest.
When I feel overwhelmed, my Godis not overwhelmed.
In Mark you just brought up Markchapter six and Mark chapter
four when Jesus is in the stormwith his disciples and they are

(22:56):
absolutely freaking out and theyare saying, hey, are you not
concerned that we're about todie?
And Jesus could not be morecalm?
Because we follow a God whodoes not fret.
We follow a God who does notfret.
We follow a God who is neveranxious.
We follow a God who is notscared, and he calls us to
likewise not complain, not worry, don't worry about tomorrow.
Why?
Because he is with us, we getto cast all our burdens onto him

(23:18):
because he cares for us.
Right, tim Preach baby.

Speaker 2 (23:22):
Hey Adam, this is fun dude.
Reach baby.
Hey Adam, this is fun dude.
There's so many things thatyou're making me think of.
One is what you were saying isrelatively paradoxical and for
me, family systems theory was amajor part of my doctorate work.

(23:42):
I don't know if you're familiar.
Like the two postures that haveto be present for healthy human
relationships at every time isconnected and differentiated
Differentiated.
I know who I am in Jesus.
I don't need any man's approval, or anybody my kid's approval,
and yet I love you and I needyou.
I care for you.
It's the I need you and I don'tneed you at the very same time.
That makes for a healthymarriage and I think, for a

(24:05):
healthy parenting as well.
And then it's just wisdom toknow am I trying?
And there could be.
I don't know if I want to godown this path, but the feminine
characteristic, the motherlycharacteristic, could be
overprotective, right, so overlyconnected, you could say fused.
And not every woman has thissort of tendency, right, they

(24:26):
could have some more.
But then the masculine tendencyis more disconnected, maybe
inappropriate, risk you know,and this is why God made us male
and female and brought ustogether as husband and wife so
that we would live in thatbeautiful middle, because my
posture just in our home, I'mlike, yeah, give it a shot.
You know, sometimes I have not.
Let me just be honest.

(24:47):
I have two drivers right, I'llhave a third driver here soon.
Um, the only time I've ever haddeep thoughts about them
killing themselves in a carcrash which is, you know, tough
stuff happens is when I wasbehind my daughter as she took
her foot off the brake I'mfollowing her in my car, takes
her foot off the brake and isabout ready to move out on a
left-hand turn into traffic.

(25:07):
I honked and she put her footon the brake.
She was a brand new driver.
So, this was one of her first goaround.
She didn't look, you know, butI'm here to tell you, outside of
that one interaction.
When they leave the house, Idon't think about them driving
right, my wife thinks about themdriving like a lot.

Speaker 1 (25:25):
You know like I hope.

Speaker 2 (25:26):
I hope there she's looking on the phone.

Speaker 1 (25:28):
You know you went 85 miles an hour, all this kind of
stuff out of the interstate withfor my son.

Speaker 2 (25:33):
It's tough man.

Speaker 1 (25:34):
So yeah.

Speaker 2 (25:34):
Anything more to say about the balance between
husbands and wives.

Speaker 1 (25:37):
Yeah, I think part of what you're talking about too.
You see, in Christ, right, theway he makes disciples isn't.
Part of what he does isevaluated practice.
He says I want the two of youto go out with nothing and 72 of
you going two by two withnothing.
And he doesn't say because wedon't have anything.
He's, in essence, getting themready for the days when they
won't have anything and gettingthem ready for the days when

(25:57):
he's not going to be with them.
You're going to go two by two.
This is how you're going tohandle it.
And then we're going to comeback together and we're going to
talk about it.
And when they come back,they're so excited oh, this
happened.
We cast out demons in your name, we perform miracles.
And he said hey, hey, hey, calmdown, let's just be, let's just
be excited that your name iswritten in the book of life.
Again, he's corrective.
He's teaching, he's training,and if we can think about
parenting as more of anopportunity to train as opposed

(26:19):
to just tell them, uh, I thinkit was Mark Twain who said if
teaching were the same astelling, we'd all be so smart.
We could barely stand it,because we tell our kids things
all the time.
But if, in parenting, we couldteach them and if, as we're
maturing, as we're beingdiscipled as parents, we could
be taught, we could be trained.
Hey, you can be free of thatsin, shame, guilt, the lies you

(26:39):
tell yourself or the mean thingsyou say about yourself, the
negative self-talk, or maybeit's the pride that you feel
like, hey, I'm fine, I can letmy kids go, do whatever.
That's the best way to parentand you go.
Maybe actually it's good that Ihave a spouse who's softer than
I am towards my children andmaybe it's good for my spouse
that they have me that's alittle bit more carefree with my
children and maybe we can learnfrom each other, lean into each

(27:01):
other and where we makemistakes, hand that to the Lord
and say Lord, forgive us wherethis is sin and help us where
it's foolish, but we're going totry to do our best.

Speaker 2 (27:08):
Yeah, that's so good.
All right, let's get into theweeds here a little bit, and
they're good weeds, we don'tneed to.
I don't know why we say get intothe weeds.
That doesn't sound like fun,let's get into the flowers and
have a good conversation, anyway.
So how?
So how can we create a familydiscipleship culture?
And for some of our listenerswe talk this way in our

(27:29):
congregation but maybe they'rein a church that doesn't talk
about family discipleship andculture, kind of the nuts and
bolts A cool thing about ourtribe, I guess.
Confirmation is a big deal in alot of our Lutheran churches
and we bring families, we bringthe moms and dads into
confirmation during during thattoo.

(27:50):
Yeah, it seems like a duh, butit's.
Unfortunately it doesn't happentoo too often.
So get, get us behind thescenes.
How do you define a familydiscipleship culture?

Speaker 1 (28:00):
Yeah, Well, a family discipleship culture.
I'm glad you brought that upand you're right in the.
In the historical Lutheranchurch, the idea behind
catechism was to equip parentsto lead their homes.
Right, the idea behindcatechism was I'm going to
simplify this not so that theprofessional priest, but that
the royal priesthood, thepriesthood of believers, could
be equipped to lead their kids.
And so to have a familydiscipleship culture means I

(28:22):
don't just punt to theorganization known as the church
in order to teach my kids aboutChrist.
I wouldn't do that with math, Iwouldn't do that with science.
I wouldn't say, hey, guys, well, let me say it like this, we
would do that, maybe, when itcame to their education.
But I would never de-qualifymath and say, hey, you don't
need to pay attention really,because you're going to get

(28:42):
enough from watching math aroundthe house.
You'll see me balance mycheckbook and add things up to
the grocery store and that's allthe math you're going to need.
No, I'd say your math in theschool is important.
I'd say following Christ in thechurch is important.
The difference is there's alsobeen a explicit command of God
that my job is to teach my kidsto observe all that Christ had
commanded.
There's been a commission toevery believer to make disciples

(29:05):
everywhere, including the kidswho are growing up in your own
household, and so a culture ofdiscipleship within the home is
the idea that I'm establishing,hopefully across the board, a
safe place for my kids to asktheir spiritual questions and a
place where it is normal to readthe Bible together, to sing

(29:25):
together, to pray together, thatit is ordinary for us to do
these critical things like be aChristian around my kids, not in
order for them to see me be aChristian, but because I
genuinely love Christ.
They get to see that in myhousehold and so it's a part of
the culture.
Tim, again, we know what thislooks like in other areas, right
?
If I said there's a person inyour congregation who's a huge

(29:48):
Phoenix Suns fan, just loves thePhoenix Suns, and I said, how
would you know?
And you'd say, well, theyprobably build their schedule
around when the games are.
They probably spend some oftheir money to go to the games.
They wear the gear and theywant to talk about it.
Maybe, if they're really intoit, they listen to, they read
the blogs, they listen to thepodcast, we go, okay, that's
what it looks like for someoneto love something right.
They can't help talking aboutit.
They spend their money, theircalendar revolves around it.

(30:11):
And yet when it comes to lovingGod with all of our heart, soul
and mind, we kind of go what hemeans by that?
Just kind of casually say doyou believe that you'll go to
heaven one day?
No, that's not what it lookslike to love something.
To love something.
If somebody said I love thePhoenix Suns, I just can't name
a player.
I don't know how they're doing,I don't know what city do they
play in again, I don't rememberwhat are their colors, you'd go
oh, it doesn't sound like youactually love them.

(30:32):
It sounds like you know what itsounds like to say you love
them.
So discipleship culture in thehome has to be built around
faith life of mom and dad mom ordad, depending on the case of
grandma, grandpa, whoever it is.
They're building a culturewhere people genuinely love God
and raising kids in thatenvironment.

Speaker 2 (30:51):
I want to wear the jersey.
Come on, I want to.
I'm a we're people of the book.
We talk about the way Jesus isat work in our lives.
We invite him into the hardthings.
You know, obviously we, we pray, and any words of wisdom too.
For cause you and I I think alot of people that, oh, you guys
are pastors, you know, so youguys do that kind of stuff.

(31:13):
But I'm, you know, I'm stillfiguring out, I don't even know
like the whole Bible that well,you know, and so you want me to
go and like find Jesus in normalconversation?
Like I don't, I'm not, I'm notspending like.
Just to be fully transparent,we're actually trying to do
biblical literacy work heavyright now in our, in our church,
connected to the master story,and I think I'm referring, if

(31:33):
you read the Bible four times ormore per week.
The Lifeway research came outrecently with that kind of study
.
I don't know what it is about.
Four times or more in a week.
The health, the social, therelational, all of it.
The benefits are like throughthe roof.
So the word of God is livingand active and very, very
healthy for us.
But what would you say for thebrother or sister who's just
under shame and guilt justsaying I don't do that, help me.

(31:56):
We've got to reverse engineerthis thing a little bit.
Destigmatize this, adam, yeah.

Speaker 1 (32:01):
We talked about generational problems earlier in
this episode, tim, and thetruth is we have a generation
that wasn't discipled, and sothey're going.
How would I disciple anybody?
I never was discipled, andwhile that's a legitimate
problem, it's not a legitimateexcuse, right?
We wouldn't say, oh, thatdidn't happen, oh, you know what
, then don't worry about it, asif, like, there's nothing else
we would do that with and say,oh yeah, if your parents didn't

(32:22):
show you what a healthy marriageis, then I guess you shouldn't
try to have one.
Oh, I guess if they didn't showyou what exercise was, then
don't worry about exercise.
No, if you weren't discipled,I'm so sorry, that is going to
be something to get over.
That is going to be somethingthat may be difficult for you,
but get discipled now.
You actually don't have to be ascholar, a seminary professor in
order to disciple a family.

(32:43):
There's tons of resources forkids.
Read the resources for kids.
Be on the same page they are,be in the same step.
I always say it's easier tolead somebody, sometimes from
standing right next to them andone step ahead of them, than it
is from 100 yards away anyway.
So if you could put yourself inthe position to say what's it
like to be my son right now?
What kind of questions is heasking at his age?
What's it like to be mydaughter right now?

(33:04):
What kind of questions is heasking at his age?
What's it right to be mydaughter right now?
What kind of questions is sheasking at her age?
I wonder if the scripture hasany answer to us there.
Or I wonder again I thinkthere's a generation of
Christians right now that aresatisfied with kids being
familiar with the Bible.
That's not what I want.
I don't want kids just familiarwith the Bible.
I want kids that follow Jesus.
And so if you're not followingJesus by being discipled,
studying his word, being a manor woman of prayer, I'm not okay

(33:27):
.
Just because you know the storyof Noah and the story of Adam
and Eve and you know the storyof David and you know Jesus is
coming back one day.
That's familiarity.
I want to trust in Jesus.
I want to say I make decisionsin my life because he said
that's the right decision, evenif it's not.
What my heart wants, and that'swhat I want to train my kids to

(33:47):
do is I want them to followJesus, regardless of what their
heart wants.
And that takes saying I have toget over this idea of whatever
excuse I have.
Hey, I don't know my Bible.
Well, okay, we'll get to knowyour Bible.
Hey, I'm not really a man ofprayer.
Let's start praying.
Hey, I look at these other dadsand it makes sense that they
can do it.
Well, go get breakfast withthat dad.
Then say, hey, do that, help meout.

(34:11):
This is one of the gifts of thechurch.
You're not living in ageneration like Noah, where
you're the only believer.
You're living in a generationwith a church on every corner in
this country where we live.
And so go find one that lovesJesus.
Get to know somebody there wholoves Jesus and ask them to
disciple you, and you can getover a lot of these excuses and
then just demystify it a littlebit.
I'm not talking about somethingthat's abnormal and crazy.
My kids aren't.

(34:31):
I don't come home and they begme to open the Bible for them,
but I am consistently saying,hey, before you go to bed
tonight, we're going to open theBible together.
I'm consistently praying forthem.
I am a man who tells them whyI'm making decisions based on
God's word.
I invite them into thosedecisions because I want them to
know that, but I'm an imperfectman trying to help imperfect
kids follow a perfect God right.
So I'm actually trying to helpthem see how an imperfect person
follows God, because they'llgrow up to be imperfect men and

(34:52):
women.

Speaker 2 (34:55):
You're fantastic, Adam.

Speaker 1 (34:57):
Thank you Tim.

Speaker 2 (34:57):
You put a quarter in you on discipleship stuff.

Speaker 1 (34:59):
This is so good, just flying off the handle.
No, no.

Speaker 2 (35:01):
And it's so well, it's just true, and it's so well
, it's just true and it's simple.
This isn't rocket, it's likeJesus, the God of the universe,
the God of great complexity andorder.
He gave us simple and when Ihear you talking, it's just
simple rhythms, holy habits thatwe invite our kids into and it
just becomes.
It doesn't become like a task,it's just a way of being and the

(35:23):
rhythms in different seasons oflife.
Because if your kid's schedule,they're going to kind of, but
we're people that are connectedto the word, we're people of
prayer, we love talking thethings of Jesus and where we see
character that's out of stepwith the heart and mind of Jesus
.
We're going to have aconversation about that as we
grow up into Jesus, who is ourleader and Lord.
Right, no-transcript, Because itwasn't about you've got to get

(35:54):
these certain degrees and dothese things and all that kind
of stuff.
You got to do all these thingsto then be drawn.
No, no, no.
Just come and walk with me.
Figure out how I do it.
I love the easy, unforcedrhythms of life.
Just figure out the light, easyyoke that I put on you.
It's not like the Pharisees,it's going to be great.
Just come and go on anadventure with me.
Jesus says right, I mean, thisisn't hard.

Speaker 1 (36:16):
Yeah, jesus made it.
I mean, you look at the way hediscipled.
He's inviting making breakfastfor people after they sinned
against him, which nothing'smore family-like than that To
say, like Peter really messed upbad, cut a guy's ear off trying
to kill him, fell asleep when Iasked him to pray for me.
He abandoned me.
He showed up, he pretended hedidn't know me.
He cursed at himself saying hedidn't know me.

(36:37):
And then they sit down tobreakfast together and who cooks
?
Jesus cooks says come, sit down.
And the cool thing about thatstory, tim, you know this is
when Peter first met Jesus.
In Luke, chapter five, there'sa miraculous catch of fish.
And Peter's response to themiraculous catch with fish was
you need to get away from me,jesus, I'm a sinner.
We shouldn't be close together.
Three years later, when Peter'sstill a terrible sinner and he

(37:00):
has a miraculous catch of fishagain, he said he dove into the
water trying to get to Jesus assoon as possible.
Not because he's a better manthan he used to be as far as
like sin is concerned he's stilla sinner but he's more
convinced than either that he'swelcome and wanted by Jesus.
And if we can both, as parents,operate of that kind of
confidence that my mistakesdon't drive a wedge between me
and my God.
They drive me to him.
I need to be restored by himand we could treat our kids the

(37:22):
same way to say where there areproblems in my household, I
don't want it to divide us, Iwant it to strengthen us the
same way, like the paralytic inMark, chapter two, can always
look back when he was healed andsay if I hadn't been paralyzed,
I don't know if I would havemet Jesus.
That any one of us could say.
If I hadn't made that parentingmistake, maybe it wouldn't have
brought the kind of strength Ihave now to lead the way I need

(37:42):
to lead in this household.
If we hadn't endured thisdifficulty, maybe we wouldn't
have matured in the faith theway the Lord called us to,
because that's the way he paints.
Suffering for us is somethingthat's disciplined from a loving
father.
Ah, isn't that just like ourhousehold?
Like you're, you're disciplined.
You're making things harder.
Why?
So that there'll be better, sothat there's be strength and
rest.
And that's the picture of thediscipled home, is a picture of

(38:07):
a home that's free and strong inthe Lord.

Speaker 2 (38:08):
Yes, so good.
All right, let's go deeper.
Two key components.
You talk about modeling.
I, like you're obviously apreacher, because there's
alliteration throughout the book.
You and Matt really love that.

Speaker 1 (38:18):
Well, alliteration is helpful for memory, let's be
honest.

Speaker 2 (38:20):
So two key components of modeling being reliable and
relatable Say more.

Speaker 1 (38:25):
There so two key components of modeling being
reliable and relatable.
Say more there, yeah.
So with each one of these partsof the framework modeling, time
, moments and milestones wetried to help give a little
deeper picture of remodelingbeing reliable and being
relatable.
What we're saying is you dohave to have similar to what
you're saying earlier, tim aconnection with these kids that
God's given you, that is genuine, that is sincere, that is
loving.
In order to model for them, youhave to have proximity to them

(38:49):
and then there has to besomething.
There's something consistent inthe way you do this.
Modeling for them will not looklike the best kind of modeling
is not a one-off right.
My kids won't grow up and belike I know how to read the
Bible because one time I saw mydad reading the Bible.
That's not what I just modeledfor them is a lack of something
I want them to see.
I want my kids to see in memodeled patience and kindness

(39:09):
and gentleness, and I want themto see that consistently.
And how will I seek that?
It's in my own spiritualstrength and spiritual walk.
So I seek that for myself.
I ask that for myself.
I ask for victory over sin.

Speaker 2 (39:29):
I ask to cast off the sin that so easily entangles,
so I can run the race that'smarked out for me and I want to
do that reliably and I want todo that relatably close to my
kids.
I love that.
All right, let's talk time.
I love this, your rhythm.
There's some habits here.
There's some holy rhythms.
There's a season to it.
Right, there's a rhythm, andthen there's intentionality.
Talk about time.

Speaker 1 (39:41):
So all of these things that we have in our
framework, we're trying to helpfamilies get on the same page.
Right, so, to have a husbandand wife sit down together and
say how are we doing in theseareas?
The same way that, like it'svery common in our Christian
culture right now, if you'regoing to get married, to go
through premarital counseling,and you sit down and go, how do

(40:04):
we get on the same page on howwe're going to share our faith
with our kids?
Not just think about sleepschedule, not just think about
food, not just think aboutschool, not just think about
academics and extracurriculars.
How do we think about sharingour faith?
And so time, the same way yousaw Christ have hey on synagogue
on Saturday we're going to goand I'm going to teach from the

(40:29):
word.
Same way, our family theGriffin family is a good example
.
We go to church together onSundays.
That's part of our familydiscipleship rhythm.
Sunday mornings are set asidefor us to worship together.
It's a tradition, so we oftenoverlook it as a Christian
culture, but it's an importantpart of what we're doing and
it's not part of punting myspiritual development to the
church.
It's actually part of meshowing them what a worshiper

(40:50):
looks like, why I gather with acongregation Then in our house
every night.
So we have a nightly rhythmwhere every night, before our
kids go to bed, we read, we pray, we sing together.
We keep it very simple.
I'm going to read somethingfrom the scripture, sometimes
we'll use a devotional,sometimes we just go like right
to the Bible and we'll readsomething, we pray together, we
sing together.
Then we have some monthlyrhythms where one of my kids was

(41:11):
born on the 5th of the month,one the 16th, one the 29th, and
each 5th of the month isTheodore's night.
So when it's Theodore's night,his kids or his brothers are
going to go to bed or hisbrothers are going to go do
something else and we're goingto get one-on-one time with
Theodore.
That's when we're having one ofour 10,000 faith talks, one of
our 10,000 sex talks, one of our10,000 opportunities to talk to
him about.
Hey, just you, where you're atright now, how are you doing?

(41:32):
We're proud of you, and sothat's part of our rhythm is to
have individual time with eachkid each month, and so those are
kind of like there's a lot ofways to do it.
Sometimes, when I talk aboutthat, families will go.
Oh, every night.
I can't do every night.
I'll tell you, if your kid wasin football and they said
practice was every night, you'dprobably be there.
And if Christ said, hey, we'regoing to love God with all our
heart, soul and mind, and I said, let's do it every night, I'd

(41:53):
hope you go.
Hey, let's build up tosomething.
But I don't want you to everhear me say, hey, if you can't
do all the amazing stuff, I do.
No, I'm trying to give God thebest portion of my life, which
means I don't want to miss a daywhere my kids hear about Jesus.

(42:16):
That means in the Griffinhousehold, tim, if we have a
babysitter and I'm not therewhen my kids are going to bed,
when they were little, we tellthe babysitter hey, just so you
know we're Christians.
So before our kids go to bed,they read, they pray, they sing
together.
If you're a Christian, you'rewelcome to join them.
It means when we have peopleover at the house, be it family
or friends, and it comes timewhen our kids were little, for
them to go to bed, we don't say,hey, guys, we're going to skip

(42:36):
family discipleship time tonight, or of the room for my friends
and go read with them.
Believers or not, we would say,hey, one of the rhythms our
family has is every night weread, pray and sing together.
You're welcome to join us.
And that gives us a chance todisciple not only our kids but
disciple our church, discipleour friends, disciple our
neighborhood.
It's something that we've said.
If we're Christians and wereally believe this, then
shouldn't?
We have appointed times wherewe are sharing our faith.

(42:59):
Now, for some families thatmeans they do breakfast.
For some that means they do.
Every Sunday night we're doinga family Devo or a movie night
where we're going to talk about,you know, what Bluey has to do
with the Holy Spirit.
I don't know anything aboutthat.
But for different families theydo different things.
But that's the rhythm of ourfamilies.
We have appointed times whereour kids know my parents are
going to talk to me about Jesus.
Or even right now, this morning, I had men's Bible study at our

(43:22):
church.
I've invited my 13-year-old sonto start going to men's Bible
study with me, so he gets up at6 am, studies the Bible with me
and a group of adult men, andthen I go take him out for
breakfast, and at breakfastwe're going through a book on
human sexuality, and that'sbecause he's at an age, at 13
years old, that I really want tomake sure I'm discipling him.
In particular, in that areawhere he's curious, the world is
going to tell him somethingdifferent than I want to tell

(43:43):
him, and so that's a weeklyrhythm for us right now, and
those weekly rhythms are familydiscipleship time.

Speaker 2 (43:49):
Dude, I love the high challenge.
It's so good, we desperatelyneed it, and we're as human
beings.
We love to let ourselves offthe hook, don't we?
Yes, yes, you know John.

Speaker 1 (44:03):
Tyson Go ahead.
John Tyson wrote a great bookcalled Intentional Father and we
talked to him about it and it'svery intense, it's daily
discipleship.
And I asked him if you got todo it over again, what would you
do?
And he said if I got todisciple my son over again, I'd
be more intense, I think, aboutevery show we watched together
and how we could have beentalking about me to him.
This was perfect.
To sum it up, he said I'm notasking you to do something you

(44:24):
can't do.
I'm just asking you to doeverything you can and I'm
challenging you to believe thatyou can do more than you think.
And that has weighed on me togo.
That's true.
If I love God with my wholeheart, soul and mind, then
shouldn't I be trying to doeverything I can?

Speaker 2 (44:39):
Yeah, and this isn't so for those who have a Lutheran
kind of perspective.
We hear this is moving us rightback into the law.
I hear invitation.
I hear Jesus when he'schallenging his disciples in the
upper room discourse greaterthings than these you're going
to do, why?
Because the Holy Spirit's goingto come and you're going to
have everything you need.

(45:00):
But he was not.
When Paul, then, is giving theletters to the church, I mean,
they are high challengedocuments to emulate the life of
Jesus.
The whole thing is saturated inour identity in Jesus.
It's saturated in mercy andgrace.
But that does that mercy andgrace again does not lead us to
cheapen the grace of God bycompromising our

(45:20):
responsibilities.
Anything more to say there.
Adam.

Speaker 1 (45:22):
Oh, amen.
I don't think the gospel andlicentiousness are equivalent.
Right Like to say oh, it'sgospel.
If I'm not telling you what todo, the gospel says I don't have
to do anything.
That's not the gospel.
The gospel says you were savedin spite of the fact that you
could not save yourself.
But because of the gospel, nowyou are still called to say what
is the portion?

(45:42):
I have to give God my wholelife.
God didn't say, hey, I'm savingyou, so now you can do whatever
you want.
No, he said I'm saving you fromdoing whatever you want, I'm
saving you from you being king.
I'm saving you to me being king.
So, since Christ is my king,it's not you think about it like
this Tim is.
I lock the doors of my house atnight not to trap my kids inside

(46:05):
my home.
I lock the door of my house toprotect my kids from the lion
who seeks to devour, from thelion who prowls, and so we can
look at that lock and go.
Look at this guy.
He's such a legalist.
He locks his kids into this.
He just he's forcing them to dothis.
No, no, no, no, no.
I believe that following God'scommands is what sets me free.
I believe that Christ is Kingis what sets me free.

(46:27):
That's gospel, good news, thatI am protected when I follow God
.
Not that God has to do whateverI want, that I am happy to
submit to whatever God wants.

Speaker 2 (46:38):
Yeah, no, that's, that's good.
You know, sometimes we talkabout who needs good works.
You know Lutherans are superfidgety as it relates to works.

Speaker 1 (46:49):
Yes, sir.

Speaker 2 (46:52):
We got to.
We got to.
You know we're going to throwus back right out of the way to
the law.
One, one helpful thing that, uh, I don't know if it was Luther
or just kind of Lutherantheologians.
So God doesn't need your goodworks, your neighbor does.
And your neighbor created in theimage of God, which your
neighbor starts with your wifeand your kids Like they
desperately need to see the loveof God through you.

(47:13):
And then there's this, like nowin the gospel, in our new
identity in Jesus, because ofhis life, death, resurrection,
ascension, his reign, hisindwelling spirit for us.
I rejoice in the law.
Your law is good, you know good.
I go to David in the Psalmsover and over again.
So yeah, that's good.
We just moved right into somedeeper theology on how that

(47:33):
connects to discipleship.

Speaker 1 (47:35):
Well, I believe the fruit of the spirit is goodness.
So to some extent, if I walkwith the Lord, there's something
pleasing to the Lord in me.
It's not that I am worthless.
It's not that I am valuelessand somehow God scraped me off
the toe of his boot and saw fitto save me.
It's that the Lord loved me,valued me, and it's not because

(47:55):
I offered him something that hesaved me.
But it is as a loving child,like Ephesians 5.1 says, as a
loving child delights inimitating their father.
That's what I'm trying to do inthese commands of God.
I'm not trying to heap thingslike a Pharisee onto people.
I'm trying to set them free bysaying now go and sin no more.
Now let's go and make disciplesof all nations.

(48:16):
Now let's not commit adultery,let's not kill.
Yes, those are the laws thatset us free and I am set free
from the punishment that comesfrom the breaking of those laws,
but not set free to run to thebreaking of those laws.

Speaker 2 (48:28):
That's good, that's good, that's a good articulation
of justification andsanctification for those who
have your Lutheran lens on.
Uh, and the tension between thetension between the two.
Um, there's a cost I'm thinkingBonhoeffer right now right,
there's a cost to this thing ofdiscipleship, picking up your
cross and following after Jesus.
Jesus didn't lower the bar.
He told us to go out and diedaily, die to self and so that

(48:50):
he may live in and through us.
Good stuff, hey, we're justabout at time.
This has been really, reallygreat.
Maybe one closing comment.
I wish you were in the LutheranChurch Missouri Synod.
I'm just glad you're.
You're sharing the love ofJesus.

(49:10):
We were talking before westarted going on on leadership
development and I told you oneof the tests we're running right
now in leadership developmentand I'm a product of Concordia
seminary in St Louis.
Praise God, go preachers.
I just played in an alumnibasketball game, adam.

Speaker 1 (49:27):
Hey, how'd you do?

Speaker 2 (49:29):
Well, it was good.
I played probably six years ina row.
And the old guys most of theguys in mid to late 40s, maybe
early 50s, most of them minus me.
I played football and baseballin college, but they played
college basketball.
So these glimpses, you know, ofglory from your, but then our
bodies just don't do what theyused to do.

(49:49):
Nonetheless, there were twoalumni games some younger alumni
and then some older alumni butwe won and I hit.
It's really quite fascinating.
I hit almost a buzzer beaterwith like 10 seconds to go to
put us up three and I think Ihad like 10 points or something
like that and it was pretty, itwas wild.
The whole gym went crazy Like Ihadn't experienced that in 20

(50:11):
plus years.

Speaker 1 (50:12):
Most people have to remember that from high school.
You've got a recent memory ofthat.
I love it.
It was great.
Now did the people on the otherteam say, hey, we weren't
putting as much effort becausethat would be legalism and we
just don't want to be?

Speaker 2 (50:24):
Well, I think to land the plate right.
I mean I was just, I didn'treally care, I mean I was just
out there having fun, you knowthe whole thing.
The whole thing was just fun.
Yeah, give it a shot.
Sometimes it goes in Anyhow.
What a delight.
It was a delight.
So my perception by some in ourchurch body is that I'm
anti-seminary, I'manti-education, because we're

(50:45):
doing things differently,raising up bivocational,
co-vocational leaders, andnothing could be further from
the truth.
I love our seminary and ourleaders and are hoping for a
both and approach moving forward.
And for those of you who listenand have no idea, it's okay,
but you had some interestingcomments around formation and

(51:06):
the way we do it today thatmaybe we could just close.
I thought it was prettyprovocative, adam.

Speaker 1 (51:11):
About the Lutheran Church in particular.

Speaker 2 (51:13):
Well, no, just about kind of seminary.
So for 700 years we didn't doresidential Until the monastic
movement.
We didn't do residentialeducation.
It was all discipleship as I do, so you start to do and it was
more rabbinic right.
They were following in thefootsteps of Jesus, following
the footsteps of Paul, testingout certain gifts that they'd

(51:35):
been given and obviously gettingcorrection and feedback along
the way with someone who's justa little further advanced in
their leadership journey, andwhat it looks like now for
pastoral formation is there arehints of that, there are parts
of it that are commensurate withthat, but it's strange that our
congregation having a learningcommunity that leads all the way

(51:59):
up to raising up pastors is notthe norm.
It's the exception rather thanthe norm.
Any comments on that, though?

Speaker 1 (52:07):
Yeah, for sure I think we've.
You know, in some sense, thesame way that maybe families
have historically in ourgeneration punted spiritual
education to the church and said, pastor, educate my kids.
We have in some senses and insome denominations punted
discipleship, raising upshepherds for our church to a
distant organization, a distantHogwartsian, like, well, you

(52:28):
raise up and you produce pastorsfor us and then send them to us
.
And there's something reallybeautiful about the local church
, like Timothy did when he gotto his church and Paul commended
him hey, go find elders there,raise up shepherds under
shepherds, people who are goingto pastor this church, shepherds
under shepherds, people who aregoing to pastor this church.
And so I do think there's abiblical responsibility on every

(52:50):
local church to be raising up ageneration of leaders and not
just looking outside themselvesto an organization.
That's classical education asmuch as that's good.
I'm a product of seminaries.
I've gone to three differentseminaries.
I did undergrad Christianeducation.
I'm a product of private school.
I've studied the Bible in a lotof schools and I've benefited

(53:11):
from that.
But in my church now when I'mlooking to hire, I am delighted
when I can find a minister whois a qualified minister, because
they have learned in our localcontext.
We know them, they aretheologically aligned with us,
they know our people, they canshepherd these people that they
already know.
They are ready.
And I, as a disciple maker, mymeeting right after this was

(53:32):
with a young man that I'd loveto bring on professionally here,
but he's already disciplingpeople here.
He's already being ministeredto.
I've been discipling him andthat's a beautiful aspect of
what we see in Jesus' ministry.
He didn't say come and followme and I'm going to start a
school.
He didn't say I'm going towrite something in this ivory
tower and I'll send it to you.
You should read it.
And that he says come andfollow me.
And in that life on life,discipleship, he produces men

(53:53):
who are ready to lead and Ithink there's something
beautiful about that in thelocal church.

Speaker 2 (53:57):
Hey, love it, adam, if I'm pretty sure Right, any
other ways that people canfollow you and pray for you?
Yeah, the easiest way isfamilydiscipleshipcom we have
the Family Discipleship Podcast.

Speaker 1 (54:10):
We've got a new book called Good News for Parents and
several resources for parentsof young kids.
Right now, all that's atfamilydiscipleshipcom.

Speaker 2 (54:15):
Tim, thank you so much for the time.
This is a kick, please like.
Subscribe helps get the wordout on these hope-filled
conversations.
This is one of our podcasts ofthe Unite Leadership Collective.
Let's move in unity with Jesusand let's move collectively out
in mission to make Jesus known,starting in our homes, in our

(54:36):
neighborhoods, in our churches,for the sake of the advancement
of the gospel.
It's a good day.
Go make it a great day.
Wonderful work, adam.
Thanks brother.