June 11, 2025 • 47 mins
What if one of the most "outdated" evangelism methods actually works better than we think? In this fascinating conversation, Pastor Timothy Koch dismantles the misconception that door-to-door evangelism belongs in the past and demonstrates how this approach is bringing people to Jesus in communities across America.
• 33% of people in rural towns are unchurched, contrary to the misconception that everyone in small towns already belongs to a church
• Koch's organization Jesus Door to Door (JD2D.org) provides free resources and training for congregations
• The evangelism approach uses a simple survey method that allows 95% of respondents to hear the Gospel
• Cook teaches a clear way to articulate faith: "I'm a sinner separated from God, but Jesus suffered and died for my sins"
• Two-thirds of people answer their doors, and 5% are open to follow-up visits
• Door-to-door evangelism strengthens the faith of those who participate by helping them clearly articulate their beliefs
• The approach has led to new believers and church members, including families who have become faithful attendees
• Rural communities need strong pastoral leadership despite declining populations
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to the Tim Allman Podcast.
It's a beautiful day to bealive.
I pray.
The joy of Jesus is yourstrength as we get to learn
today with a friend that I'veknown for some time and I get to
reconnect.
This is Pastor Tim Cook.
He grew up in Minnesota,parents are Lutheran grade
school teachers.
He's married to Emily, has fivekids Ezra, evelyn, levi, annie
and JL.
(00:23):
Am I saying that right?
That's a cool name, jl.
And from 13 down to two yearsold, he is a Concordia Nebraska
graduate.
We overlapped a little bit.
You knew my brother, probably,and my sister, ruth, tim, right,
I think your sister.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Ruth was in my class.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Yeah, I think that's right.
She's a couple years younger.
He's a 2010 Concordia Seminaryin St Louis grad and then he got
his STM with Jeff Cloa as histhesis advisor in 2013.
His first call dual parish inCrespard and Wakota, South
Dakota, both located in FalkCounty with a population of
2,100 people probably morecattle there than people would
(01:01):
imagine.
A second call was in EmanuelLutheran Church in Milbank,
South Dakota, and his currentcall he's in Lynn, Kansas,
directly south, about 80 miles,he said, from Seward, Nebraska,
northern part of Kansas,population of 380 people.
Today, that's his context.
He's been in rural context andyet today the conversation is
(01:22):
gonna focus on evangelism,door-to-door evangelism.
So let's talk about Jesus anddoor-to-door evangelism to kick
us off there, Tim, manymissiologists, especially here
in America, think this is anoutdated approach.
You say otherwise.
Take it away, buddy.
Thanks for hanging with metoday on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
This is great, Sure, I say otherwise, because our
confession is that I cannot, bymy own reason or strength,
believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to him, and so our
default position as Lutherans iswe can't control the
effectiveness.
And so my mantra for evangelismhas always been 2 Corinthians 9
(02:01):
, I think it's verse 6.
I should know the verse.
That's embarrassing.
Whoever sows sparingly, reapssparingly.
Whoever sows bountifully, reapsbountifully.
And so this is one, just onepossible way of sowing
bountifully the word of God, andI think that's probably why I,
even if it were outdated, it'sjust it's more.
(02:22):
It's always.
You just add more.
We're not.
I'm not going to do thedichotomy.
It's either this type or thistype.
You just it's this plus this,plus add.
I'll just add more, it's more.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Well, yeah, I mean our God.
Yeah, our God is a God ofabundance, right, and he wants
all to be saved.
So it just makes sense of thechurch.
And it's very evident with theearly church that in their going
this is Matthew 28, greatCommission right In their going
they were going to makedisciples.
How does that happen?
Through the word.
They were going to be very openout, in their homes, obviously,
(02:54):
in their marketplaces, and withtheir neighbors, people that
they know and trust.
So you do door to door.
If you want to look it up,what's your website?
You've done a lot of training.
Let's throw that out right atthe beginning there, tim.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
It's the letter J, the letter D, the number two and
then the letter Dorg.
So JD2Dorg stands for JesusDoor to Door, and that's the
name for what I'm doing.
It's not a formal nonprofit,I'm not registered anywhere,
it's not an RSO.
But people have asked what areyou doing, what kind of stuff do
you have, what resources?
(03:26):
And I put them on that websitejust to help.
There were documents.
So if you don't like mycanvassing survey, you can just
cut out the questions you don'tlike, add new ones.
It should be pretty adjustable,have you?
Speaker 1 (03:37):
I mean right up front .
Have you seen results here, tim?
Have people come?
Speaker 2 (03:40):
to know and follow Jesus.
5% of the people we talk to areopen to a follow-up visit, so
that's pretty good.
Now I typically go to acongregation, canvass on their
behalf and then go home to myplace Again population 382.
(04:01):
I can hit my town in a day, andso the follow-up that's the one
piece that I don't see veryoften.
But in my own context, august2022, I went to the town of
Washington, kansas, about 10miles north of me, canvassed
about a third of the town, acouple of teams and in November
I had a family well, a coupledrop by.
So three months later theyweren't even home.
They just had the track that westuck in the door and they
(04:21):
brought it with them and theyput it on my desk and they said
this is a sign from God.
We want to join your church andthey have, and they're amazing
and they don't miss.
They're there every Sunday.
That's just one.
I mean, what's one example?
There's another one.
We were up in Utica, nebraska,which, if you grew up or went to
Seward Utica, has whatpopulation?
Probably 900.
The church is huge.
(04:41):
You would think that the entiretown is churched, but we were
canvassing the town and one ofour teams met a guy.
He's like yeah, you know, Igrew up Lutheran kind of fell
away from the faith.
I'm married.
I've got two kids one on theway.
I'd like to get them baptized.
We got them plugged in withtheir pastor over there.
He texted me about a month ago.
He said I've got them inpre-baptism classes.
(05:02):
They've been worshipingfaithfully since December and
thank you for the work you didand, bearing the fruit Town of
900, got a family of five justlike that.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Well, hey, tim, I think the fields are ripe under
the harvest.
They've always been, but Ithink right now, for churches
that want to lean into an inviteculture, we've been talking
about invitability for the lastquarter or so, like with great,
great intention and this isboasting in the Lord, not in,
but with some intention and forus, our canvassing is mostly
(05:33):
online.
Right, we're?
We're doing a lot of differentads trying to drive people to
our website, first time users onour website and we're seeing
we're seeing first time users 92first time users that go to our
website.
And we're seeing first-timeusers 92 first-time users that
go to our website.
We know that equals one personcoming to one of our campuses
and just in the month of Marchwe've had over 70 first-time
(05:55):
folks say they're with us at ourcampuses.
That's three Sundays, we're inearly mid-March, so that's one
other data point to say.
I think people are open to aninvite.
Do they know your church isthere?
Do you let them know thatyou're not weird and that they
could meet and follow Jesus here?
So let's get into the detailsabout what you teach.
(06:16):
In your training you said youraise up teams and then they go
canvassing door to door theyenter into conversations.
Take us through some of thetraining that you give to folks.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Sure.
So when I get together at acongregation, we usually go from
nine to four do a Bible study.
I usually let the local pastorlead a Bible study, and that
gives me time to organize teamsand put together the data not
the data but the, because werecord data so the clipboards
and the paperwork and theirsurveys, and the pencils and the
tracks, all that stuff.
(06:52):
And then we meet and I teachthem the canvassing survey,
which I can rattle through in asecond, and then, primarily
though, I want them to be ableto articulate the gospel.
Lutherans have great vocabulary.
We got the vocabulary of thegospel.
Our problem, I think, is anarticulation problem, which is,
when pressed, we don't oftengive a very clear confession of
Jesus Christ.
And so I help them do that andI focus primarily on.
(07:13):
I learned it from a groupcalled the Ongoing Ambassadors
for Christ, and it's just, youknow, they call it the 3S method
.
I'm a sinner.
The consequence of sin is I'mseparated from God.
So that's the sin, separation.
And then that's why I'm glad toknow he sent Jesus to suffer,
die and rise in victory to payfor all my sins.
I know I'm going to heavenbecause of what Jesus did for me
.
And then we add on, and I wantyou to know that that promise is
(07:35):
true for you too.
So that's typically how wepresent the gospel.
There are a couple of otherways that I do it, but that's a
predominant one.
That's probably over 90%.
So I teach the kids how to dothat because it allows for you
to.
In our canvassing survey we askthem where do you believe you'll
go when you die?
And then if they say heaven andthat's 78% of people say heaven
(07:58):
then we ask them why do youbelieve that?
Can you give me a brief accountfor why you believe that?
And you can kind of dividetheir answer into four
categories.
It's either because they'retrusting in Jesus, which is
great, they're trusting in theirown good works they don't know
that's another category or theywon't answer the question.
So those are kind of the fourcategories.
So if they say a thing we hearoften is because I read the
(08:21):
Bible, then you can validatethat you've heard them by saying
well, I read the Bible too, butI still sin.
And since God requiresperfection now you're just kind
of off to the races.
So I like this witnessingmethod because of its
flexibility.
I can take almost anything yousay, and transition smoothly
into I'm a sinner.
That separates me from God.
(08:42):
God sent Jesus.
I know I'm going to heavenbecause of what Jesus did for me
.
I want you to know that promiseis true for you too.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
So I love that, tim.
Well, there's been.
There's some Kennedy evangelismelements in your training and
sometimes I think Kennedy hasgotten a bad name because there
was a season and I think it getslumped in with maybe some
church growth methods that somepeople would be kind of
uncomfortable with, especiallyin Lutheran circles and things.
(09:09):
What are the main attacks youhear on asking that question?
Where are you going if you die?
Heaven, heaven or hell?
And how have you some maybe alittle bit more of a complex,
nuanced question?
How is this distinct fromKennedy?
What you're, what you're doing,and obviously you're a Lutheran
, you're a faithful Lutheranpastor.
How does it look different?
Because we're confessingLutherans, yeah, so Kennedy.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
His question is are you absolutely certain that if
you were to die right now, youwould go to heaven?
That's his question, whichpresumes, in my opinion humble
opinion, and I think it workedgreat in this context in the 70s
or whenever this thing was bornbut it presumes too much.
You're presuming you're talkingto somebody who even believes
there's a heaven, and so I'm notasking you to buy into the
(09:51):
framework under which I'moperating.
I'm simply asking you to givean account for what you think
happens when you die.
And then I ask for permission.
So where do you believe it willgo when you die?
Why do you believe that?
If they say heaven or purgatoryor hell, and then my follow-up
question is can I share with youwhere I know I will go when I
die?
95% of the people who hear thatquestion say yes.
95% of the people who take oursurvey will stick around to hear
(10:15):
the gospel, and then it's justme telling.
So I listen to what you had tosay, and now you respectfully
listen to what I have to say,and then I conclude that by I
want you to know that promise istrue for you too, and so it's
less kind of.
I mean it's aggressive in thesense that I'm going door to
door.
That comes across as aggressive, but it's far less aggressive
(10:36):
in the actual verbiage than theevangelism, than the Kennedy
evangelism explosions.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
I'm curious in your research how many doors get
opened Like because people aren.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
I'd have to crunch the numbers of the people who
answer the door.
Sixty seven percent.
Take the survey it's veryconsistently two thirds.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
And the survey are those questions you were just
asked and they give that back toyou.
Is it or is it?
It's a?
It's a conversation.
Is the survey?
Is that?
Is that what I'm getting?
So here's the survey.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
Hi, we're from Zion Lutheran Church in Linn, kansas.
We're taking a short religioussurvey.
Can I ask you a few quickquestions?
If they say no, thank you foryour time and we leave, and if
we have time I'll come back towhy that's important.
But if they say yes, and 67%say yes two thirds these are the
questions.
Are you familiar with ZionLutheran Church?
Did you go to church when youwere growing up?
If so, what denomination?
(11:29):
Denomination Do you go tochurch now?
If so, what denomination?
Are you baptized?
Do you have a Bible in yourhome?
Do you have a favorite Biblestory?
And then, if so, what is it?
Can I ask for your first name?
Where do you believe you'll gowhen you die?
Is Jesus made up or a real?
Do you believe Jesus is made upor a real person?
Then I ask can I ask for yourname?
Where do you believe you'll gowhen you die?
Can I share with you where Iknow I will go when I die?
(11:50):
And if we sense that there'ssome kind of more genuine
interest or opportunity forfollow-up, we'll add up the
question.
Can somebody from ourcongregation come back and talk
to you further about our missionand our Lord Jesus?
Speaker 1 (12:01):
That's cool Under two minutes.
Yeah, not long.
What percentage of people sayJesus existed?
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Oh, I crunched those numbers just now it is 94%.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Wow, yeah, I mean that is the question.
You believe Jesus existed.
Well, what do you believe hedid?
Right, everybody.
That's high, that's greatBecause historically, you can't
deny it.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
I started asking that question the first time.
I added it to the survey onSeptember 16th 2023.
So a little almost two yearsnow I've been asking that
question.
That's the last question I'veadded to the survey.
Since then, 898 people have.
We've asked that question to898 people and 55 of them, or
(12:51):
6.12%, said no, he's not real.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
That's so good.
Any other distinct features?
You have like eight distinctfeatures here, tim, about what
makes JD2D distinct, and one ofthem is short on theory, long on
action.
You can walk through any ofthose or just share more of the
process.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
So the short on theory, long on action.
One is we're really good attalking about evangelism this is
another Bible passage.
And all toil there is profit,but mere talk tends only to
poverty Proverbs 14, 23.
And we talk about evangelism alot and if I tell people, hey,
we're going to get together andtalk about evangelism, I'll get
like 50 people to show up,especially if I promote it, if I
(13:30):
do that same promotion and say,hey, we're going to get
together and we're actuallygoing to do evangelism.
I want to get like eight,because if you've not done it
before, it's scary, even if youhave done it before.
Sometimes it's justintimidating and it's scary.
But it's just, you learn bydoing.
I mean that's true for anything, that's true for tithing, for
crying out loud.
You learn by doing, you do it,you do it, you do it.
(13:51):
And so you just kind of got tothrow yourself out there and so
that's, yeah, we're really short.
I mean I train you in under twohours and then we just we go
out.
But I'm able to do that becauseI'm talking with people who
have been saying the creed Inthe church.
I mean, they've been in church,they know who Jesus is and if
they can give an account oftheir faith.
(14:13):
Sometimes they get swallowed upby the survey, right In the
sense of like they're followingthe script.
When I was with a kid he was ajunior in high school we were in
Mount Calvary Lutheran Churchin Brookings, south Dakota.
We're knocking on the door.
It's the first time he led thecall.
Usually he was writing down theinformation he was my scribe,
(14:33):
but he said he was willing.
I'm willing to talk at the doorthis time.
Nice lady answers the door.
She's a Methodist and he reads.
He's just reading the card likethis, you know, and he's
getting through the questions.
You know where do you believeto go when you die?
She tells him why do youbelieve that?
She tells him can I share withyou where I know I will go when
I die?
She says yes, and then he locksup.
He's too nervous, the nervesjust swallow him up and he like
(14:57):
spins around and he looks backat me.
I'm like two steps down on theporch and his name was Peyton
and I said Peyton, tell thewoman why you believe you're
going to heaven.
And he like looks back at herand he pauses a couple of
seconds and he says because,says Jesus.
And then he gave her theliterature and laughed and I was
like I've been doing this along time, I've heard much worse
(15:18):
, I've heard much worse.
So he got, he continued to comewith me.
God bless him.
I don't know if his mom made himforced him to join me when I
went out on these because he wasa member of my church, so we'd
go out and he'd frequently join.
He got much more polished andsmooth and that stuff.
But that's where he started.
That was his first experienceof having to articulate his
(15:38):
faith and if I were there thenext time then I've had other
kids do similar things and I say, okay, jesus, what did he do?
Well, he died.
See, we know the things.
So he got stuck on the script.
I I don't remember that 3Sscript.
Okay, that's just helping you,but you actually know the
information.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
So just tell them why you know you're going to heaven
.
Well, that's as concise of ananswer as you can possibly give.
That's right, One word answer.
It's a Sunday School answer andthat is enough.
It's faith in Jesus.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Well, if you're going to give an account for your
faith, for your salvation, ifyou, any human being, is going
to give an account for yoursalvation and the name Jesus
does not leave your lips, it's aproblem.
You've dropped the ball on thearticulation part.
I'm not saying you don't havefaith, I can't see faith, that's
God's prerogative.
But on the articulation frontyou've got to talk about Jesus
(16:30):
if you're talking about yoursalvation.
And that's what I found sointeresting.
Because I'll go tocongregations or Lutheran
congregations.
Many of them have Lutheranschools and I asked the kids
these questions point blank inthe training.
I start by asking survey and thenumber of I don't know, because
I go to church I get so much ofthat and it's like even you
don't believe that and that'swhat you said.
And it's like even you don'tbelieve that and that's what you
(16:55):
said, like you know.
So you just have to kind ofguide them through.
And then you point out kind ofwell, going to church is good,
but why do we find that kind ofan unsatisfactory answer?
And then it kind of clicks forthe kids and then once they do
it, okay, what they'veexperienced going door to door
or role playing in the training,excuse me, that just carries
(17:15):
with them into school, work,life, friends, family.
It's sticky.
The training is sticky.
It goes with them wherever theygo.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
Why wouldn't we want that?
We desperately need it, brother.
Well, most of your ministry hasbeen in rural America.
I think one of the misnomers isthat the church in rural
America because population isdeclining, which is a true thing
, our urban, suburban centersare getting larger, rural, you
know, and there's a lot ofreasons for that, but that there
isn't a mission.
(17:44):
I love that your context iswhere you're at and that this
training is going into smalltowns and obviously can go into
urban and suburban areas as, orsmaller cities as as well.
It just translates.
So what are people'smisperceptions about rural
ministry today?
I'd love for you to dismisssome of those misperceptions,
because that's been the entiretyof your ministry, praise God.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
Yeah, the misperception is that everybody
in a rural town is churched.
It's simply not true.
That's probably the biggest one.
So I'll call a church again,because if I try to do this once
a month, especially during theacademic year, then I take a
week-long trip at the end of May.
This year I'm going to Denverand we're so the but, yeah, the
(18:29):
idea that everybody in a smalltown has church.
So I called a church here.
I was trying to get in, Ineeded a place to go here in
March, called the church in atown of about 800 people.
Hey, can we come out and dothis?
And they're like no, you knowhim and Hod?
I don't think so.
Everybody here is Catholic.
I said well, come on.
I said, if that's true, why isthere a Lutheran church there?
(18:49):
Well, it's mostly Catholic.
I said it's not all Catholic.
I said I've been doing this forfive years.
33% of the people you'retalking to are unchurched.
Do you want them to come to you?
Do you want to invite them?
Do you want?
Do they even know you exist?
Well, everyone.
That's the other misconception.
Everyone knows we exist.
I have never, ever, I've beenhad a canvassing where, when I
(19:13):
ask people, are you familiarwith whatever church we're
representing 100% say yes,that's never happened, ever, and
we're usually almost alwayswithin walking distance of the
congregation for which we'recanvassing.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
So small churches can grow in rural areas.
Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
When I was in Crestbard population 90, county
population 2,100, 400 of themwere Hutterites, so they're not
even really evangelism materialbecause they live on colonies.
1,700 people in the county.
Like.
My goal was let's add oneperson to the membership books
each year.
Let's make that our goal andsome years we got it.
(19:51):
Sometimes we exceeded it andsometimes we didn't, but it's
just intentional.
If I took a picture, I did this.
I gave a presentation at arural conference and I borrowed.
Like my sister lives nearWashington DC, so I borrowed
their little Facebook, you knowpictorial directory.
And then I took a pictorialdirectory from my congregation,
a pictorial directory from BrianLee's congregation in Kalispell
(20:12):
and a bunch of these, and I cutout the pictures and then I
scanned them and that was myopening slide and I just asked
the crew that was gathered.
I said how many of these peopledeserve to have a good pastor
who loves Jesus, is zealous forthe work and joyous of the
gospel?
And of course all the hands goup and I said okay, I forgot to
(20:33):
tell you.
You know, some of them live inrural communities.
You want to change your opinion?
Of course the answer is no,they don't want to change their
opinion on that.
But you know, rural communitiessuffer because they can't keep
talent, they can't.
They can't keep doctors, theycan't keep lawyers, they can't
keep school administrators, theycan't keep pastors.
Keep lawyers, they can't keepschool administrators, they
(20:55):
can't keep pastors, they justthey churn through.
If you can make it work inrural America, you can make it
work anywhere else at fargreater price points.
And so the rewards have to besomething other than monetary.
And so we do a lot of.
You know, we have to raise uppeople from our own community
who love our community, becauseit's extraordinarily difficult
to entice people to come in.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
Yes, have you had a lot of.
Now we're getting into LCMS,leadership development stuff.
Have you had a lot of pastorsin your network go through SMP?
Speaker 2 (21:24):
A bunch of them when I was in South Dakota.
But I'm fairly new to Kansasthree years, not as many around
here.
Also, that's just, I'm in avery highly dense lutheran area.
It's very weird.
Um, it's unique, it's notnormal.
It's not at all normal.
It's a blessing, so I lean intothe blessing, but it's not
normal.
Yes, up in south dakota therewere, there were quite a number
of them, there were two in mycircuit and then in fact, that
(21:47):
congregation I was serving myfirst call is currently being
served by an smp guy and they'regoing to have another SMP guy
start August of 2026.
So that's just the future forthem.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Yeah, that's great.
I've been having a lot ofconversations.
I think SMP could improve andwe could get rid of some of the
stigma around it.
In my experience there are anumber of laymen in our
congregations that would be open, that are open to a longer
formation journey.
It doesn't mean that we can'tordain after two years.
(22:20):
I like that feature of SMP, butto even get to a Master of
Divinity in an online space, andI'm hoping that our seminaries
and Synod are open to that inthe Lord's time, because the
kind of different tiers ofpastors those of them
residential MDiv and then theSMP guys that kind of divide is
unfortunate.
You have any thoughts there,tim?
Speaker 2 (22:41):
Yeah, probably lots of them.
I like it's tough.
I think the short answer is Iagree, I agree, I agree with you
.
It's kind of that.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
Okay, thanks, yeah, let's just stop there.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
You know, when they can't find someone to come in.
But the heart is there and soto lead.
Like I said, I was skeptical ofthe SMP program and then I
landed in South Dakota and myclosest pastor LCMS pastor was
SMP.
He made the SMP program lookawesome.
I immediately repented of mypreconceived notions and then I
(23:14):
was blessed to teach a couple ofSMP classes in 2016.
And so I got to see how thosecohorts work and kind of how the
whole program operates, andthat was a great blessing too.
So I've really been supportiveof the SMP program.
I've also said I think the SMPprogram has a better vetting
process than our seminaries,because we can conceive, because
(23:38):
the S&P program asks thequestion are you willing for
this man to be your pastor?
That's a much differentquestion than do you think it's
conceivable that there is aplace somewhere in the United
States where this man could be apastor and you know you don't
want to get in the way of theHoly Spirit, but humility, I
appreciate that with people, butkind of it's like yeah,
hopefully, but but if you wereto ask the same question like,
(24:00):
do you want this guy to be yourpastor?
Oh no, no, you know.
So I kind of like I like thevetting process of the, of the
SMP program in that way, whichis it just has that kind of that
personal connection where it'snot hypothetical, it's not
hypothetical, it's very real.
And I think you just kind ofstart with better moldable.
You know, the clay you workwith, so to speak, is more
(24:20):
important than maybe theformation process it goes
through.
That's my operating theoryright now I can open for
critique and but right nowthat's currently it's a tough
job.
It's just really tough.
I love seminary.
It was just amazing and youknow.
But I remember, like last weekat school some guy asked to made
a comment like was unaware thatPaul had died before the great
(24:42):
Jerusalem famine of you know.
And I was like or thedestruction of Jerusalem.
He mentioned this in class.
He's like well, you know,paul's writing this because
Jerusalem was destroyed by Titusand what other.
And the professor's like comeagain what you know.
It's like, come again what youknow.
It's like how does that happen?
Like, how did you go throughthis institution and not know
that, like that chronology?
(25:03):
Well, yeah, it's easy for me tobe arrogant.
I'm sure I've made a lot ofreally, really dumb,
embarrassing mistakes which lordhave mercy.
If anybody recorded them andshared them I'd be dying of
shame.
So I think we all have that.
It's just a.
It's a tough.
It's a tough, tough thing toform, but we're doing the best
we can and I think we can.
(25:24):
There are other ways.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Hey, that's just so true.
I love.
Going back to your vettingstatement, it's very evident
that the early church had to doit that way.
Cause, there you, because youthink of little Timmy, we're
both Tim, right.
So you go to Timothy in Paul'sform, and so there had to be a
group of people.
We think he was in Ephesus, Ithink right, I mean, he's one of
the leaders, he travels around,but Paul gives him 2 Timothy
(25:49):
2.2.
You find others who can teach.
You can find others to teach.
And if the church, say inEphesus or Corinth or whatever,
didn't like this guy, like hedidn't connect, there was
something about him that waseither immoral or he just was
passive, and there's no way AuntSally is going to see this guy
standing up and talking to herabout Jesus, then the church is
(26:09):
going to say, well, no, he's notable to teach, not able to
teach Something about this man'slife or his competency, his
aptitude, his ability toarticulate the faith is not
allowing us to see this as areality.
So, no, what about Tom overhere?
We're okay, tim, You're allright, you got a role in the
church, for sure, everybody'sgifted, but maybe it's not into
(26:31):
the pastoral ministry.
So, yeah, I think there's waysto get local pastors and church
leaders more tightly connectedto the next generation of
leaders, and I think that's sortof an approach, especially if
you're looking at men in theirmiddle ages, that's an elder
that's being raised up in thedeclining church and they're
looking to kind of boost it up.
(26:51):
I think a way whether it's SMPor SMP plus whatever we could
potentially do in the future wemove very slow in this
conversation and that's okay.
That's because it's a very,very sensitive conversation.
People need to be well-formedbecause eternity is on the line
here.
Good theology moves peoplecloser to Jesus right, and so we
should.
This is a longer conversationin the Jesus direction, but
(27:13):
getting to land it, gettingcongregational leaders closer to
the choosing and training incontext in partnership with our
seminaries, that's going toproduce some wonderful not
perfect but I think, wonderfulfruit into the future.
So thanks for even exploringthat with me.
We often talk about we'reconfessional Lutherans.
Right, and some may evendisagree, tim, are you a
(27:35):
confessional Lutheran?
100%?
I confess Christ, I confess theLutheran confessions, etc.
Do we try some kind of creativethings to get the gospel, just
like you're doing in yourministry, to get the gospel into
the ears of people that don'tknow Jesus?
Yes for sure, but I still am aconfessional Lutheran, but my
confession leads me out intomission.
Any thoughts on I thinksometimes the caricature can be
(27:57):
rural congregations ormulti-point parishes.
There's a lot of ourconfessional guys that are there
in that context and yousuburban urban mission planter
kind of guys.
You guys have maybe left theconfessions for the sake of
mission and I think that's justa crazy dichotomy, but it's
definitely out there.
We're associating with certaingroups and this is one of the
(28:18):
focuses of our podcast.
We're trying to crossrespective groups, but that's a
hard thing to do because webuilt up so much labels around
one another.
So any thoughts on theconfessional missional
conversation there?
Tim, I'm aware that it's there.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
I'm not even sure.
I joke.
I'm like I'm not sure if eitherside will claim me as it is,
but it's in my particular taskof asking congregations hey, can
I come in and can I do?
They will often say no, and Iam often interested to know why
(28:59):
that is.
Why won't you let me do this onyour behalf?
Because I can't run my headaround.
You're sitting in your study, Idon't know.
You're driving out to see ashut-in member.
Your phone rings, it's me andit's a guy who says hey, I got a
group of youth and some adultleaders.
We need a place to go share thegospel on behalf of a local
congregation.
Can we come up to your placeand do that?
(29:20):
And the answer is no, I don'tcharge.
You know.
The only thing I ask is likeyou know, unlock the doors, turn
on the lights, give us foodWe'd appreciate some food.
You know, give us, buy somepizza or something and then give
, give us literaturerepresenting your congregation
that we can leave at the door.
And so people say no, and I'mtrying to figure out why, and I
(29:41):
think some of it is.
They maybe know that peoplefrom their church won't come and
support us, but that's not adeal breaker for me.
If nobody from yourcongregation shows up to do this
with us, I still need a placeto do it, this with us.
I still need a place to do it,and I do only operate on behalf
of a congregation, which is Iwant to be representing a
(30:02):
congregation because it is agreat commission issue.
You baptize and you teach.
Well, I don't do any baptizingand almost no teaching.
There is a place in thecommunity where that occurs.
It's your congregation.
I'm going to get out and I'mgoing to plug people into the
place of baptizing and teaching,and so.
But I've found nodiscrimination in the sense of
(30:23):
I'm unable to predict who willallow me to come in and who will
not, so that would be more onthe missional side of things.
No, the one time I got an answeris no, we focus on relational
evangelism, so kind of what yousaid at the beginning.
It's an outmoded form, itdoesn't work, so to speak.
That's the one time I, you know, they gave me an answer.
(30:44):
I disagree with it.
They did give me an answer, butyou know, and the other guys on
the other side, you know, oneguy said, well, you guys have
used to bring a songbook with meand we kind of open with some
guitar music.
I can play like two songs onthe guitar, and so I said, well,
I'll just leave that behind.
I said, if you don't want to dothat, I said, just, you know,
we'll sing something out of thehymnal.
(31:04):
And he still wouldn't let mecome out, which was kind of how
I knew it really wasn't aboutthe guitar, there's something
else happening.
But so in that regard, Ihaven't seen that divide in
receptivity to what I'm up to.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
What percentage of churches say yes or no?
Do you know that spread?
Speaker 2 (31:20):
I don't know what that percentage is.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
Okay.
Well, what I do know is Phoenixis open for business.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
All right, all right, yeah.
So I just got to get down there.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
Yeah, you got a church here and there's lots of
our circuit congregations herein the East Valley which is
rapidly growing.
You know we're looking atmulti-site, we're looking at
church planting and all of thatand we work with the Unstuck
group right now.
They're some of the preeminentkind of multi-site executive
(31:56):
director in the non-denom world.
They call it an executivepastor of one of the largest
multi-sites here in Phoenix andhe's I just was on a phone call
with him yesterday and he'shelping us nail our strategy to
reach more people with thegospel.
Why?
Because we're not even touchingthe tip of the iceberg.
You could be the most mega,mega, mega.
And there are thousands andthousands of people not only
(32:17):
that aren't in church.
We're bringing in MaricopaCounty.
There's a thousand peoplemoving here every week, tim yeah
that's, it's just.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
I can't even wrap my head around it.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
Exactly so all I'm praying for is there's multiple
ways to reach multiple peopleand if even one person came
because of a like, there's nolove lost.
I mean, you don't have to likeus, whatever we're out.
We're public and ChristGreenfield has a very, you know,
public reputation for ourschool and things like that.
So any way to like, get ourmaterials in the homes of people
(32:52):
that are far from Jesus.
The misnomer here iseverybody's a Mormon around
there.
You know At one time for sure.
Even this is how rapidlycommunities change.
12 years ago, when I moved here,it was well over 50% of Gilbert
that was Mormon.
Well, Gilbert's grown from150,000 people to 250,000 people
in those 12 years, and the vastmajority of that growth is from
(33:14):
outside.
Here the percentage of Mormonfamilies is now probably around
40% and declining, even thoughthey're having more kids, and it
appears as if, because they gota church at every square mile,
they have the corner market onit.
But nothing could be furtherfrom the truth.
So, all that to say, we'd loveto have you down here in Phoenix
helping us expand the gospel.
(33:35):
Hey, let's close with pastoralcare.
Last 10 minutes here, or soYou're the general editor of the
Sealsorger, a journal for thecontemporary cure of souls.
It's a publishing arm ofdoxology.
So what's your primary emphasisas you talk?
Soul care, Tim.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
Pastors focus in on like the word and sacrament
ministry part of the job, liketalking about Jesus, not getting
entirely swallowed up by kindof the day-to-day, the
day-to-day stuff.
There's a church 40 miles westof me in Concordia, kansas.
There's a city in Kansas calledConcordia that doesn't have a
(34:14):
Missouri Synod Lutheran churchin it.
So we're planting a church overthere and over there there's
this giant black hole andthey're struggling to get a
pastor to just even help themkind of get off the ground.
So I'm almost the closestchurch to them so I'm currently
serving them functionally, kindof being a dual point parish
(34:35):
right now.
But because I'm serving Zionand Lynn, we have a Lutheran
school, we got some Spanishministry stuff going on.
That's a significant investmentof my time.
All I can really do is get overthere kind of preach, do the
shut-in visit.
You know really just focus inon those core tasks that I am
uniquely equipped to do.
They need to do the rest.
They got to rise up and theygot to lead on the other aspects
(34:59):
and so, in soul care, it'sreally refreshing when a
congregation just kind of freesyou up to do this stuff, like
I'm going to tell people aboutJesus.
I'm going to focus in onprepping a Bible study and
preaching a faithful andengaging sermon and I'm going to
get out, and so that's a lot ofwhat the soul care task is
(35:20):
looking like.
We're currently working onvolume 10 of our journal.
I published an essay in volume8 and 9.
In volume 8, it was our onlythematic journal and we were
dealing with pastoral care andcohabitation.
That's like tough right,because you don't agree with
what they're doing, but they arepeople who need to know about
(35:40):
Jesus, and so how do you guidethem through that?
How do you guide, shepherd themwith a firm but gentle hand,
right, not compromising thetruth but also letting them know
there's a better way here.
And so we wrestled with a lotof different issues on that one
In my previous parish I moved inostensibly Midwest congregation
(36:01):
.
There were 30 different coupleson the books when I got there
that were cohabiting.
Many of them were my Sundayschool teachers.
So we had to address that, andso I wrote an essay.
I called it Inherited Sin wasthe title of the essay
shepherding the cohabitingcouples you inherit.
So that was one.
And then the last issue I wrotean essay on when should a pastor
(36:22):
invoke his divine call.
So when does the pastor say I'mthe called man of god here?
And why should a pastor, shoulda pastor ever do it?
And if so, under what?
What circumstance?
Because that can be abused.
That was my premise.
Like this gets abused.
I pitched this as an idea to thejournal and, uh, there were a
couple of dps that were aroundwhen I said it.
(36:44):
One of them literally got outof his chair and said can you
write that essay?
Yesterday?
This is an issue, is right, soit's that kind of stuff.
Like you got to recognize where.
Like this is not about you,it's not about your personality.
Not everything that goessideways is an attack on you or
even the office.
We're just not.
We're fighting againstprincipalities and powers, not
(37:04):
flesh and blood.
And so let's let's focus in onthat.
And my premise was you invokeyour divine call when you are
trying to emphasize gospel andyou get out of the way when
you're doing the loss.
That was essentially Becauseeven in the divine service,
that's when we do it.
The only time you'd say thatyou're called is when you're
going to tell them that they'reforgiven.
(37:25):
Hey, you know.
So I remember this gal Dora.
She was dying in the hospitaland she, you know, confessed
cancer, young gal, and she justsaid I feel like God has
forgotten me.
Well, there's an opportunity toinvoke the divine call.
It's like, hey, like God calledme here to make sure that you
(37:46):
know, in this room, in this town, on this day, that he has not
forgotten you.
Communicate in hand, let'sforgive your sins and make sure
you have a clean conscience.
Then you know that if anythinggoes wrong, you know exactly
where you stand with your Lord.
So that kind of stuff withpastoral care, and it doesn't
lend itself to very easyprescription.
So there's a lot of room fordisagreement among brothers of
(38:07):
the brotherhood, like, oh, Iwould handle that situation in
this way, I would handle thatsituation that way.
What kind of?
What are the filters?
What are you thinking about?
Are you keeping the main thing,the main thing, jesus Christ
and his righteousness?
And so that's kind of whatwe're going for with the Soul
Care Journal and even with whatwe were talking about pastoral
formation.
Tyler Arnold is writing an essayright now about the passage in
(38:30):
1 Timothy 3 about pastors shouldmanage their own households
well, and so what do we do whenpastors' children fall from the
faith or conduct themselves in ascandalous lifestyle.
Is this disqualifying them fromministry?
Is it not disqualifying themfrom ministry?
How is Satan using this to tryto undermine your ministry?
I mean, he's asked it's goingto be good and there's kind of a
gap.
There's not a lot written onthis particular issue.
(38:53):
But you hear guys and are thereguys who want to get out of the
ministry and they're justlooking around for an excuse and
they find their kid dosomething stupid and they're
like, ah, that was a gateway Ineeded to get out of here.
Meanwhile we have the catechismurged them to stay and do their
duty.
So Tyler Arnold is doing areally good job of wrestling
through that issue right now.
It's going to be a blessing tothe church.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
Hey, that's so good.
One question I have to ask,going back to what you were
saying around when we invoke ourdivine call, the office you
said gospel, but not law weshouldn't invoke it when we're
talking in the realm of the law.
Would you say more about whatyou mean there, tim?
Speaker 2 (39:33):
Yeah.
So my presumption is that whenthings blow up in a congregation
around this issue, it's becausethe pastor says he invokes his
divine call to kind of leveragehis importance.
So if they're going to make adecision, well I'm the called
(39:55):
man here and so therefore youneed to do this.
And so God didn't call you toinvoke the call so that you can
coerce behavior.
He called you to do Word andSacrament ministry, and so I do
put in the essay.
If people read it like thereare occasions where it's
probably appropriate.
(40:15):
I can think of one time in myministry that I did it and I
would do it again.
But generally speaking, that'skind of my premise.
Like if you find yourselfconstantly invoking the divine
call to get your way, you're outof line.
You're just out of line.
Speaker 1 (40:30):
Sorry.
Well, yeah, I mean you'releveraging the office toward
power, right, Rather thaninvitation, and it may work in
the short term, it doesn't workin the long term.
The spirit of invitation,negotiation, care for people
with different perspectives,that is the office of holy
(40:51):
ministry Walking with people whohave different opinions than
you do If everybody.
You know one of my favoritestatements ministry would be
great if it just weren't for thepeople.
Well, you know, you probablyshould get out of ministry if
you don't really like peoplewith diverse perspectives.
I think people are fascinating,how they arrived at different.
You know, god made me supercurious If I could pray for one
trade among pastors.
It's just more curiosity andlove for all different types of
(41:14):
people, finding people very,very fascinating and seeing a
church that's very eclectic.
I think we got all differentsorts of people.
There's no other organizationlike the local church that has
the arms wide open socioeconomic, racial, you know, diverse,
everybody is here, no Jew, noGentile, slave, free, young, old
, rich, poor, male, female.
We're all one in Christ,Galatians 3.28.
So, like that's going to bemessy, just saying there's one
(41:37):
time, tim, I got to tell thestory One, one time that I
probably in a staff meeting andI have enough distance now where
I can tell this without gettingpeople too angry at me but we
had been raising money by theHoly Spirit's power to build a
gym in Phoenix, gilbert, arizona, here you know.
I mean it's so stinking hot, sohot, and we'd spent so much
(41:58):
time and attention, peoplegiving very sacrificially, $4.2
million project raised about$3.5 million toward that end.
So a lot of energy had goneinto this.
And one of our campus directorsI'll leave her name not on this
podcast, she's a sweetheartthough, but she came in and they
were talking floors, tim, allright, and now they had.
(42:19):
They had these kind ofmulti-use, function, plasticky,
kind of rubbery floor concepts.
I about lost my mind Because I'ma basketball guy, right, and I
was like it will be wood.
There was a Luther moment.
I'm banging on the table, itwas.
It was that as a call to nameservant of the word, make it a
(42:41):
wood floor.
And anyway, I'm kind of beingsilly, but they're like man,
you're passionate.
You're passionate about that.
That is the only time.
Every every other time it'sbeen negotiation.
Speaker 2 (42:50):
So being funny, I think one thing I'm really
people generally don't need toknow where I stand on an issue,
you know.
But I'll just be honest withthem.
Like wow, I've got a strongopinion about that, I think it
should be this, but I don't thenlike leverage that.
And then if they, if they, takean action that's contrary to my
opinion, which has happened andthen that does not result in me
(43:10):
being petty or treating themany differently.
Now I've only increased mytrust and they've increased
their trust and we just we work,we work better.
So you know, those piffs andsaps and stuff there was.
There was one of the questionswas where are you on
confirmation before FirstCommunion, before confirmation?
And I said I am pro FirstCommunion before confirmation,
(43:32):
but I've never successfullymoved a congregation that
direction.
But they've all known, they'veall know I've been very, very
honest about like no, this isyou know, but you know I'm not
gonna, I'm not gonna strong armit through.
They just they know.
Speaker 1 (43:44):
No, that I mean it, just it doesn't it't work.
To be quite honest with mystory, the reason they took my
opinion is because I playedbasketball Right Like my whole,
my whole life, and I understoodthe experience is way better on
a wood floor.
It had nothing to do with my,my ministry.
They're like, wow, ok, maybe,and we love our, we love our gym
to this day.
But, yeah, the church wins.
(44:06):
You know the people of God, theelders, the board, whatever.
The church wins.
You know the people of God, theelders, the board, whatever.
There's so many stories ofpastors trying to play the power
card and it going sideways,because it's counter to the
spirit, it's counter to the HolySpirit, it's counter to the
spirit of Jesus, who didn'tcoerce.
He invited his disciples comeand follow me and some didn't
(44:26):
follow.
You know, I mean I think of therich young man go and sell
everything you have and come andfollow me.
Well, I don't do that.
Speaker 2 (44:33):
You know we get hurt.
Like you can be honest aboutthat.
Like for sure I'm miserablebecause I was really passionate
about this thing and I thought Iwas doing it the right way and
I thought I'd made a reallycompelling case and it didn't.
It didn't go.
That hurts.
I don't know of anybody whodoesn't think that that hurts.
But the solution is not moredomineering spirit, like that's
(44:53):
not.
Yeah, amen, amen.
I hate Tim You're not standingbefore the judgment seat of
Christ.
And Jesus says you know youreally could have leveraged your
divine call and push thisthrough.
I don't think so.
Speaker 1 (45:04):
No, no, no.
It's the humility of Christ,the kindness of Christ that
draws us, and then we can behonest.
Like you say, if it doesn't go,we're human and ministry is
messy for sure If people want toconnect with you and your
website, and so let us know howyou can sign up for Sealsorger,
the journal, as well as yourtraining there, tim.
Speaker 2 (45:21):
All right.
So Sealsorger, you can go todoxologyus and it's under the
resources tab and they're goingto be.
The next one's coming out soon.
You can get them all.
You can buy all of them on Lulu.
And Zalesorger is a reallyweird German name.
It's a word, it's a German word, so it doesn't, but it's
S-E-E-L-O-R-G-E-R.
It means soul care in German.
(45:42):
So that's maybe a marketingmistake.
One thing at a time.
And then Jesus, door to Door isJD2D.
You know I love going out.
If you really want to fly me outand lead your congregation
through it, give me six monthsnotice and we'll talk.
But the congregations have donethis.
There was a congregation inMaine.
They did it four weeks in a row.
I wasn't there.
They just called and asked forthe resources and picked my
brains over the phone and theywent out and did it on their own
(46:03):
.
Hope Lutheran Church in IdahoFalls Falls did the same thing.
There's a church in Lawton,oklahoma, that's doing it.
So Marmole, arkansas, they'redoing it.
There's a church in Fraser,michigan, that's doing it
without my help.
So you don't need me.
It's pretty plug and play ifyou want to give it a go.
And I mean, what's the worstcase scenario?
People don't show up, they'realready not coming.
You're not out anything.
Speaker 1 (46:24):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (46:25):
You learn how to articulate the faith.
So that would probably be mylast thing.
On the door-to-door stuff, asmuch as I love the lost and my
heart yearns for them and I wantthem to know the joy of Jesus,
probably the number one benefitit sounds self-serving is what
it does to the people who go out.
Your faith will be strengthened, your articulation, it's just,
it's healthy.
Speaker 1 (46:51):
If I never found another person for the kingdom
this way, I'd still do itbecause it increases interest in
the kingdom of God among thepeople who participate.
That's the way it works when weserve, give, learn, try, fail,
we grow and grow more up intoJesus.
Who is the head?
Yeah, so I'm grateful for you,tim.
What a joy to spend some timewith you.
This is the Tim Allman podcast.
Please like, subscribe, commentwherever it is you take in
these podcasts and we pray thatyou've drawn closer to Jesus,
maybe laughed a little bit withus and as we unite, smaller,
(47:14):
larger churches unite togetherto make Jesus known.
The days are too short to doanything.
Otherwise it's a good day.
Go make it a great day.
Thanks so much, tim.
Your blessing, thank you.
Welcome to the Tim Allman Podcast.
It's a beautiful day to bealive.
I pray.
The joy of Jesus is yourstrength as we get to learn
today with a friend that I'veknown for some time and I get to
reconnect.
This is Pastor Tim Cook.
He grew up in Minnesota,parents are Lutheran grade
school teachers.
He's married to Emily, has fivekids Ezra, evelyn, levi, annie
and JL.
(00:23):
Am I saying that right?
That's a cool name, jl.
And from 13 down to two yearsold, he is a Concordia Nebraska
graduate.
We overlapped a little bit.
You knew my brother, probably,and my sister, ruth, tim, right,
I think your sister.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Ruth was in my class.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Yeah, I think that's right.
She's a couple years younger.
He's a 2010 Concordia Seminaryin St Louis grad and then he got
his STM with Jeff Cloa as histhesis advisor in 2013.
His first call dual parish inCrespard and Wakota, South
Dakota, both located in FalkCounty with a population of
2,100 people probably morecattle there than people would
(01:01):
imagine.
A second call was in EmanuelLutheran Church in Milbank,
South Dakota, and his currentcall he's in Lynn, Kansas,
directly south, about 80 miles,he said, from Seward, Nebraska,
northern part of Kansas,population of 380 people.
Today, that's his context.
He's been in rural context andyet today the conversation is
(01:22):
gonna focus on evangelism,door-to-door evangelism.
So let's talk about Jesus anddoor-to-door evangelism to kick
us off there, Tim, manymissiologists, especially here
in America, think this is anoutdated approach.
You say otherwise.
Take it away, buddy.
Thanks for hanging with metoday on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
This is great, Sure, I say otherwise, because our
confession is that I cannot, bymy own reason or strength,
believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to him, and so our
default position as Lutherans iswe can't control the
effectiveness.
And so my mantra for evangelismhas always been 2 Corinthians 9
(02:01):
, I think it's verse 6.
I should know the verse.
That's embarrassing.
Whoever sows sparingly, reapssparingly.
Whoever sows bountifully, reapsbountifully.
And so this is one, just onepossible way of sowing
bountifully the word of God, andI think that's probably why I,
even if it were outdated, it'sjust it's more.
(02:22):
It's always.
You just add more.
We're not.
I'm not going to do thedichotomy.
It's either this type or thistype.
You just it's this plus this,plus add.
I'll just add more, it's more.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Well, yeah, I mean our God.
Yeah, our God is a God ofabundance, right, and he wants
all to be saved.
So it just makes sense of thechurch.
And it's very evident with theearly church that in their going
this is Matthew 28, greatCommission right In their going
they were going to makedisciples.
How does that happen?
Through the word.
They were going to be very openout, in their homes, obviously,
(02:54):
in their marketplaces, and withtheir neighbors, people that
they know and trust.
So you do door to door.
If you want to look it up,what's your website?
You've done a lot of training.
Let's throw that out right atthe beginning there, tim.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
It's the letter J, the letter D, the number two and
then the letter Dorg.
So JD2Dorg stands for JesusDoor to Door, and that's the
name for what I'm doing.
It's not a formal nonprofit,I'm not registered anywhere,
it's not an RSO.
But people have asked what areyou doing, what kind of stuff do
you have, what resources?
(03:26):
And I put them on that websitejust to help.
There were documents.
So if you don't like mycanvassing survey, you can just
cut out the questions you don'tlike, add new ones.
It should be pretty adjustable,have you?
Speaker 1 (03:37):
I mean right up front .
Have you seen results here, tim?
Have people come?
Speaker 2 (03:40):
to know and follow Jesus.
5% of the people we talk to areopen to a follow-up visit, so
that's pretty good.
Now I typically go to acongregation, canvass on their
behalf and then go home to myplace Again population 382.
(04:01):
I can hit my town in a day, andso the follow-up that's the one
piece that I don't see veryoften.
But in my own context, august2022, I went to the town of
Washington, kansas, about 10miles north of me, canvassed
about a third of the town, acouple of teams and in November
I had a family well, a coupledrop by.
So three months later theyweren't even home.
They just had the track that westuck in the door and they
(04:21):
brought it with them and theyput it on my desk and they said
this is a sign from God.
We want to join your church andthey have, and they're amazing
and they don't miss.
They're there every Sunday.
That's just one.
I mean, what's one example?
There's another one.
We were up in Utica, nebraska,which, if you grew up or went to
Seward Utica, has whatpopulation?
Probably 900.
The church is huge.
(04:41):
You would think that the entiretown is churched, but we were
canvassing the town and one ofour teams met a guy.
He's like yeah, you know, Igrew up Lutheran kind of fell
away from the faith.
I'm married.
I've got two kids one on theway.
I'd like to get them baptized.
We got them plugged in withtheir pastor over there.
He texted me about a month ago.
He said I've got them inpre-baptism classes.
(05:02):
They've been worshipingfaithfully since December and
thank you for the work you didand, bearing the fruit Town of
900, got a family of five justlike that.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Well, hey, tim, I think the fields are ripe under
the harvest.
They've always been, but Ithink right now, for churches
that want to lean into an inviteculture, we've been talking
about invitability for the lastquarter or so, like with great,
great intention and this isboasting in the Lord, not in,
but with some intention and forus, our canvassing is mostly
(05:33):
online.
Right, we're?
We're doing a lot of differentads trying to drive people to
our website, first time users onour website and we're seeing
we're seeing first time users 92first time users that go to our
website.
And we're seeing first-timeusers 92 first-time users that
go to our website.
We know that equals one personcoming to one of our campuses
and just in the month of Marchwe've had over 70 first-time
(05:55):
folks say they're with us at ourcampuses.
That's three Sundays, we're inearly mid-March, so that's one
other data point to say.
I think people are open to aninvite.
Do they know your church isthere?
Do you let them know thatyou're not weird and that they
could meet and follow Jesus here?
So let's get into the detailsabout what you teach.
(06:16):
In your training you said youraise up teams and then they go
canvassing door to door theyenter into conversations.
Take us through some of thetraining that you give to folks.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Sure.
So when I get together at acongregation, we usually go from
nine to four do a Bible study.
I usually let the local pastorlead a Bible study, and that
gives me time to organize teamsand put together the data not
the data but the, because werecord data so the clipboards
and the paperwork and theirsurveys, and the pencils and the
tracks, all that stuff.
(06:52):
And then we meet and I teachthem the canvassing survey,
which I can rattle through in asecond, and then, primarily
though, I want them to be ableto articulate the gospel.
Lutherans have great vocabulary.
We got the vocabulary of thegospel.
Our problem, I think, is anarticulation problem, which is,
when pressed, we don't oftengive a very clear confession of
Jesus Christ.
And so I help them do that andI focus primarily on.
(07:13):
I learned it from a groupcalled the Ongoing Ambassadors
for Christ, and it's just, youknow, they call it the 3S method
.
I'm a sinner.
The consequence of sin is I'mseparated from God.
So that's the sin, separation.
And then that's why I'm glad toknow he sent Jesus to suffer,
die and rise in victory to payfor all my sins.
I know I'm going to heavenbecause of what Jesus did for me
.
And then we add on, and I wantyou to know that that promise is
(07:35):
true for you too.
So that's typically how wepresent the gospel.
There are a couple of otherways that I do it, but that's a
predominant one.
That's probably over 90%.
So I teach the kids how to dothat because it allows for you
to.
In our canvassing survey we askthem where do you believe you'll
go when you die?
And then if they say heaven andthat's 78% of people say heaven
(07:58):
then we ask them why do youbelieve that?
Can you give me a brief accountfor why you believe that?
And you can kind of dividetheir answer into four
categories.
It's either because they'retrusting in Jesus, which is
great, they're trusting in theirown good works they don't know
that's another category or theywon't answer the question.
So those are kind of the fourcategories.
So if they say a thing we hearoften is because I read the
(08:21):
Bible, then you can validatethat you've heard them by saying
well, I read the Bible too, butI still sin.
And since God requiresperfection now you're just kind
of off to the races.
So I like this witnessingmethod because of its
flexibility.
I can take almost anything yousay, and transition smoothly
into I'm a sinner.
That separates me from God.
(08:42):
God sent Jesus.
I know I'm going to heavenbecause of what Jesus did for me
.
I want you to know that promiseis true for you too.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
So I love that, tim.
Well, there's been.
There's some Kennedy evangelismelements in your training and
sometimes I think Kennedy hasgotten a bad name because there
was a season and I think it getslumped in with maybe some
church growth methods that somepeople would be kind of
uncomfortable with, especiallyin Lutheran circles and things.
(09:09):
What are the main attacks youhear on asking that question?
Where are you going if you die?
Heaven, heaven or hell?
And how have you some maybe alittle bit more of a complex,
nuanced question?
How is this distinct fromKennedy?
What you're, what you're doing,and obviously you're a Lutheran
, you're a faithful Lutheranpastor.
How does it look different?
Because we're confessingLutherans, yeah, so Kennedy.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
His question is are you absolutely certain that if
you were to die right now, youwould go to heaven?
That's his question, whichpresumes, in my opinion humble
opinion, and I think it workedgreat in this context in the 70s
or whenever this thing was bornbut it presumes too much.
You're presuming you're talkingto somebody who even believes
there's a heaven, and so I'm notasking you to buy into the
(09:51):
framework under which I'moperating.
I'm simply asking you to givean account for what you think
happens when you die.
And then I ask for permission.
So where do you believe it willgo when you die?
Why do you believe that?
If they say heaven or purgatoryor hell, and then my follow-up
question is can I share with youwhere I know I will go when I
die?
95% of the people who hear thatquestion say yes.
95% of the people who take oursurvey will stick around to hear
(10:15):
the gospel, and then it's justme telling.
So I listen to what you had tosay, and now you respectfully
listen to what I have to say,and then I conclude that by I
want you to know that promise istrue for you too, and so it's
less kind of.
I mean it's aggressive in thesense that I'm going door to
door.
That comes across as aggressive, but it's far less aggressive
(10:36):
in the actual verbiage than theevangelism, than the Kennedy
evangelism explosions.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
I'm curious in your research how many doors get
opened Like because people aren.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
I'd have to crunch the numbers of the people who
answer the door.
Sixty seven percent.
Take the survey it's veryconsistently two thirds.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
And the survey are those questions you were just
asked and they give that back toyou.
Is it or is it?
It's a?
It's a conversation.
Is the survey?
Is that?
Is that what I'm getting?
So here's the survey.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
Hi, we're from Zion Lutheran Church in Linn, kansas.
We're taking a short religioussurvey.
Can I ask you a few quickquestions?
If they say no, thank you foryour time and we leave, and if
we have time I'll come back towhy that's important.
But if they say yes, and 67%say yes two thirds these are the
questions.
Are you familiar with ZionLutheran Church?
Did you go to church when youwere growing up?
If so, what denomination?
(11:29):
Denomination Do you go tochurch now?
If so, what denomination?
Are you baptized?
Do you have a Bible in yourhome?
Do you have a favorite Biblestory?
And then, if so, what is it?
Can I ask for your first name?
Where do you believe you'll gowhen you die?
Is Jesus made up or a real?
Do you believe Jesus is made upor a real person?
Then I ask can I ask for yourname?
Where do you believe you'll gowhen you die?
Can I share with you where Iknow I will go when I die?
(11:50):
And if we sense that there'ssome kind of more genuine
interest or opportunity forfollow-up, we'll add up the
question.
Can somebody from ourcongregation come back and talk
to you further about our missionand our Lord Jesus?
Speaker 1 (12:01):
That's cool Under two minutes.
Yeah, not long.
What percentage of people sayJesus existed?
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Oh, I crunched those numbers just now it is 94%.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Wow, yeah, I mean that is the question.
You believe Jesus existed.
Well, what do you believe hedid?
Right, everybody.
That's high, that's greatBecause historically, you can't
deny it.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
I started asking that question the first time.
I added it to the survey onSeptember 16th 2023.
So a little almost two yearsnow I've been asking that
question.
That's the last question I'veadded to the survey.
Since then, 898 people have.
We've asked that question to898 people and 55 of them, or
(12:51):
6.12%, said no, he's not real.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
That's so good.
Any other distinct features?
You have like eight distinctfeatures here, tim, about what
makes JD2D distinct, and one ofthem is short on theory, long on
action.
You can walk through any ofthose or just share more of the
process.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
So the short on theory, long on action.
One is we're really good attalking about evangelism this is
another Bible passage.
And all toil there is profit,but mere talk tends only to
poverty Proverbs 14, 23.
And we talk about evangelism alot and if I tell people, hey,
we're going to get together andtalk about evangelism, I'll get
like 50 people to show up,especially if I promote it, if I
(13:30):
do that same promotion and say,hey, we're going to get
together and we're actuallygoing to do evangelism.
I want to get like eight,because if you've not done it
before, it's scary, even if youhave done it before.
Sometimes it's justintimidating and it's scary.
But it's just, you learn bydoing.
I mean that's true for anything, that's true for tithing, for
crying out loud.
You learn by doing, you do it,you do it, you do it.
(13:51):
And so you just kind of got tothrow yourself out there and so
that's, yeah, we're really short.
I mean I train you in under twohours and then we just we go
out.
But I'm able to do that becauseI'm talking with people who
have been saying the creed Inthe church.
I mean, they've been in church,they know who Jesus is and if
they can give an account oftheir faith.
(14:13):
Sometimes they get swallowed upby the survey, right In the
sense of like they're followingthe script.
When I was with a kid he was ajunior in high school we were in
Mount Calvary Lutheran Churchin Brookings, south Dakota.
We're knocking on the door.
It's the first time he led thecall.
Usually he was writing down theinformation he was my scribe,
(14:33):
but he said he was willing.
I'm willing to talk at the doorthis time.
Nice lady answers the door.
She's a Methodist and he reads.
He's just reading the card likethis, you know, and he's
getting through the questions.
You know where do you believeto go when you die?
She tells him why do youbelieve that?
She tells him can I share withyou where I know I will go when
I die?
She says yes, and then he locksup.
He's too nervous, the nervesjust swallow him up and he like
(14:57):
spins around and he looks backat me.
I'm like two steps down on theporch and his name was Peyton
and I said Peyton, tell thewoman why you believe you're
going to heaven.
And he like looks back at herand he pauses a couple of
seconds and he says because,says Jesus.
And then he gave her theliterature and laughed and I was
like I've been doing this along time, I've heard much worse
(15:18):
, I've heard much worse.
So he got, he continued to comewith me.
God bless him.
I don't know if his mom made himforced him to join me when I
went out on these because he wasa member of my church, so we'd
go out and he'd frequently join.
He got much more polished andsmooth and that stuff.
But that's where he started.
That was his first experienceof having to articulate his
(15:38):
faith and if I were there thenext time then I've had other
kids do similar things and I say, okay, jesus, what did he do?
Well, he died.
See, we know the things.
So he got stuck on the script.
I I don't remember that 3Sscript.
Okay, that's just helping you,but you actually know the
information.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
So just tell them why you know you're going to heaven
.
Well, that's as concise of ananswer as you can possibly give.
That's right, One word answer.
It's a Sunday School answer andthat is enough.
It's faith in Jesus.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Well, if you're going to give an account for your
faith, for your salvation, ifyou, any human being, is going
to give an account for yoursalvation and the name Jesus
does not leave your lips, it's aproblem.
You've dropped the ball on thearticulation part.
I'm not saying you don't havefaith, I can't see faith, that's
God's prerogative.
But on the articulation frontyou've got to talk about Jesus
(16:30):
if you're talking about yoursalvation.
And that's what I found sointeresting.
Because I'll go tocongregations or Lutheran
congregations.
Many of them have Lutheranschools and I asked the kids
these questions point blank inthe training.
I start by asking survey and thenumber of I don't know, because
I go to church I get so much ofthat and it's like even you
don't believe that and that'swhat you said.
And it's like even you don'tbelieve that and that's what you
(16:55):
said, like you know.
So you just have to kind ofguide them through.
And then you point out kind ofwell, going to church is good,
but why do we find that kind ofan unsatisfactory answer?
And then it kind of clicks forthe kids and then once they do
it, okay, what they'veexperienced going door to door
or role playing in the training,excuse me, that just carries
(17:15):
with them into school, work,life, friends, family.
It's sticky.
The training is sticky.
It goes with them wherever theygo.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
Why wouldn't we want that?
We desperately need it, brother.
Well, most of your ministry hasbeen in rural America.
I think one of the misnomers isthat the church in rural
America because population isdeclining, which is a true thing
, our urban, suburban centersare getting larger, rural, you
know, and there's a lot ofreasons for that, but that there
isn't a mission.
(17:44):
I love that your context iswhere you're at and that this
training is going into smalltowns and obviously can go into
urban and suburban areas as, orsmaller cities as as well.
It just translates.
So what are people'smisperceptions about rural
ministry today?
I'd love for you to dismisssome of those misperceptions,
because that's been the entiretyof your ministry, praise God.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
Yeah, the misperception is that everybody
in a rural town is churched.
It's simply not true.
That's probably the biggest one.
So I'll call a church again,because if I try to do this once
a month, especially during theacademic year, then I take a
week-long trip at the end of May.
This year I'm going to Denverand we're so the but, yeah, the
(18:29):
idea that everybody in a smalltown has church.
So I called a church here.
I was trying to get in, Ineeded a place to go here in
March, called the church in atown of about 800 people.
Hey, can we come out and dothis?
And they're like no, you knowhim and Hod?
I don't think so.
Everybody here is Catholic.
I said well, come on.
I said, if that's true, why isthere a Lutheran church there?
(18:49):
Well, it's mostly Catholic.
I said it's not all Catholic.
I said I've been doing this forfive years.
33% of the people you'retalking to are unchurched.
Do you want them to come to you?
Do you want to invite them?
Do you want?
Do they even know you exist?
Well, everyone.
That's the other misconception.
Everyone knows we exist.
I have never, ever, I've beenhad a canvassing where, when I
(19:13):
ask people, are you familiarwith whatever church we're
representing 100% say yes,that's never happened, ever, and
we're usually almost alwayswithin walking distance of the
congregation for which we'recanvassing.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
So small churches can grow in rural areas.
Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
When I was in Crestbard population 90, county
population 2,100, 400 of themwere Hutterites, so they're not
even really evangelism materialbecause they live on colonies.
1,700 people in the county.
Like.
My goal was let's add oneperson to the membership books
each year.
Let's make that our goal andsome years we got it.
(19:51):
Sometimes we exceeded it andsometimes we didn't, but it's
just intentional.
If I took a picture, I did this.
I gave a presentation at arural conference and I borrowed.
Like my sister lives nearWashington DC, so I borrowed
their little Facebook, you knowpictorial directory.
And then I took a pictorialdirectory from my congregation,
a pictorial directory from BrianLee's congregation in Kalispell
(20:12):
and a bunch of these, and I cutout the pictures and then I
scanned them and that was myopening slide and I just asked
the crew that was gathered.
I said how many of these peopledeserve to have a good pastor
who loves Jesus, is zealous forthe work and joyous of the
gospel?
And of course all the hands goup and I said okay, I forgot to
(20:33):
tell you.
You know, some of them live inrural communities.
You want to change your opinion?
Of course the answer is no,they don't want to change their
opinion on that.
But you know, rural communitiessuffer because they can't keep
talent, they can't.
They can't keep doctors, theycan't keep lawyers, they can't
keep school administrators, theycan't keep pastors.
Keep lawyers, they can't keepschool administrators, they
(20:55):
can't keep pastors, they justthey churn through.
If you can make it work inrural America, you can make it
work anywhere else at fargreater price points.
And so the rewards have to besomething other than monetary.
And so we do a lot of.
You know, we have to raise uppeople from our own community
who love our community, becauseit's extraordinarily difficult
to entice people to come in.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
Yes, have you had a lot of.
Now we're getting into LCMS,leadership development stuff.
Have you had a lot of pastorsin your network go through SMP?
Speaker 2 (21:24):
A bunch of them when I was in South Dakota.
But I'm fairly new to Kansasthree years, not as many around
here.
Also, that's just, I'm in avery highly dense lutheran area.
It's very weird.
Um, it's unique, it's notnormal.
It's not at all normal.
It's a blessing, so I lean intothe blessing, but it's not
normal.
Yes, up in south dakota therewere, there were quite a number
of them, there were two in mycircuit and then in fact, that
(21:47):
congregation I was serving myfirst call is currently being
served by an smp guy and they'regoing to have another SMP guy
start August of 2026.
So that's just the future forthem.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Yeah, that's great.
I've been having a lot ofconversations.
I think SMP could improve andwe could get rid of some of the
stigma around it.
In my experience there are anumber of laymen in our
congregations that would be open, that are open to a longer
formation journey.
It doesn't mean that we can'tordain after two years.
(22:20):
I like that feature of SMP, butto even get to a Master of
Divinity in an online space, andI'm hoping that our seminaries
and Synod are open to that inthe Lord's time, because the
kind of different tiers ofpastors those of them
residential MDiv and then theSMP guys that kind of divide is
unfortunate.
You have any thoughts there,tim?
Speaker 2 (22:41):
Yeah, probably lots of them.
I like it's tough.
I think the short answer is Iagree, I agree, I agree with you
.
It's kind of that.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
Okay, thanks, yeah, let's just stop there.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
You know, when they can't find someone to come in.
But the heart is there and soto lead.
Like I said, I was skeptical ofthe SMP program and then I
landed in South Dakota and myclosest pastor LCMS pastor was
SMP.
He made the SMP program lookawesome.
I immediately repented of mypreconceived notions and then I
(23:14):
was blessed to teach a couple ofSMP classes in 2016.
And so I got to see how thosecohorts work and kind of how the
whole program operates, andthat was a great blessing too.
So I've really been supportiveof the SMP program.
I've also said I think the SMPprogram has a better vetting
process than our seminaries,because we can conceive, because
(23:38):
the S&P program asks thequestion are you willing for
this man to be your pastor?
That's a much differentquestion than do you think it's
conceivable that there is aplace somewhere in the United
States where this man could be apastor and you know you don't
want to get in the way of theHoly Spirit, but humility, I
appreciate that with people, butkind of it's like yeah,
hopefully, but but if you wereto ask the same question like,
(24:00):
do you want this guy to be yourpastor?
Oh no, no, you know.
So I kind of like I like thevetting process of the, of the
SMP program in that way, whichis it just has that kind of that
personal connection where it'snot hypothetical, it's not
hypothetical, it's very real.
And I think you just kind ofstart with better moldable.
You know, the clay you workwith, so to speak, is more
(24:20):
important than maybe theformation process it goes
through.
That's my operating theoryright now I can open for
critique and but right nowthat's currently it's a tough
job.
It's just really tough.
I love seminary.
It was just amazing and youknow.
But I remember, like last weekat school some guy asked to made
a comment like was unaware thatPaul had died before the great
(24:42):
Jerusalem famine of you know.
And I was like or thedestruction of Jerusalem.
He mentioned this in class.
He's like well, you know,paul's writing this because
Jerusalem was destroyed by Titusand what other.
And the professor's like comeagain what you know.
It's like, come again what youknow.
It's like how does that happen?
Like, how did you go throughthis institution and not know
that, like that chronology?
(25:03):
Well, yeah, it's easy for me tobe arrogant.
I'm sure I've made a lot ofreally, really dumb,
embarrassing mistakes which lordhave mercy.
If anybody recorded them andshared them I'd be dying of
shame.
So I think we all have that.
It's just a.
It's a tough.
It's a tough, tough thing toform, but we're doing the best
we can and I think we can.
(25:24):
There are other ways.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Hey, that's just so true.
I love.
Going back to your vettingstatement, it's very evident
that the early church had to doit that way.
Cause, there you, because youthink of little Timmy, we're
both Tim, right.
So you go to Timothy in Paul'sform, and so there had to be a
group of people.
We think he was in Ephesus, Ithink right, I mean, he's one of
the leaders, he travels around,but Paul gives him 2 Timothy
(25:49):
2.2.
You find others who can teach.
You can find others to teach.
And if the church, say inEphesus or Corinth or whatever,
didn't like this guy, like hedidn't connect, there was
something about him that waseither immoral or he just was
passive, and there's no way AuntSally is going to see this guy
standing up and talking to herabout Jesus, then the church is
(26:09):
going to say, well, no, he's notable to teach, not able to
teach Something about this man'slife or his competency, his
aptitude, his ability toarticulate the faith is not
allowing us to see this as areality.
So, no, what about Tom overhere?
We're okay, tim, You're allright, you got a role in the
church, for sure, everybody'sgifted, but maybe it's not into
(26:31):
the pastoral ministry.
So, yeah, I think there's waysto get local pastors and church
leaders more tightly connectedto the next generation of
leaders, and I think that's sortof an approach, especially if
you're looking at men in theirmiddle ages, that's an elder
that's being raised up in thedeclining church and they're
looking to kind of boost it up.
(26:51):
I think a way whether it's SMPor SMP plus whatever we could
potentially do in the future wemove very slow in this
conversation and that's okay.
That's because it's a very,very sensitive conversation.
People need to be well-formedbecause eternity is on the line
here.
Good theology moves peoplecloser to Jesus right, and so we
should.
This is a longer conversationin the Jesus direction, but
(27:13):
getting to land it, gettingcongregational leaders closer to
the choosing and training incontext in partnership with our
seminaries, that's going toproduce some wonderful not
perfect but I think, wonderfulfruit into the future.
So thanks for even exploringthat with me.
We often talk about we'reconfessional Lutherans.
Right, and some may evendisagree, tim, are you a
(27:35):
confessional Lutheran?
100%?
I confess Christ, I confess theLutheran confessions, etc.
Do we try some kind of creativethings to get the gospel, just
like you're doing in yourministry, to get the gospel into
the ears of people that don'tknow Jesus?
Yes for sure, but I still am aconfessional Lutheran, but my
confession leads me out intomission.
Any thoughts on I thinksometimes the caricature can be
(27:57):
rural congregations ormulti-point parishes.
There's a lot of ourconfessional guys that are there
in that context and yousuburban urban mission planter
kind of guys.
You guys have maybe left theconfessions for the sake of
mission and I think that's justa crazy dichotomy, but it's
definitely out there.
We're associating with certaingroups and this is one of the
(28:18):
focuses of our podcast.
We're trying to crossrespective groups, but that's a
hard thing to do because webuilt up so much labels around
one another.
So any thoughts on theconfessional missional
conversation there?
Tim, I'm aware that it's there.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
I'm not even sure.
I joke.
I'm like I'm not sure if eitherside will claim me as it is,
but it's in my particular taskof asking congregations hey, can
I come in and can I do?
They will often say no, and Iam often interested to know why
(28:59):
that is.
Why won't you let me do this onyour behalf?
Because I can't run my headaround.
You're sitting in your study, Idon't know.
You're driving out to see ashut-in member.
Your phone rings, it's me andit's a guy who says hey, I got a
group of youth and some adultleaders.
We need a place to go share thegospel on behalf of a local
congregation.
Can we come up to your placeand do that?
(29:20):
And the answer is no, I don'tcharge.
You know.
The only thing I ask is likeyou know, unlock the doors, turn
on the lights, give us foodWe'd appreciate some food.
You know, give us, buy somepizza or something and then give
, give us literaturerepresenting your congregation
that we can leave at the door.
And so people say no, and I'mtrying to figure out why, and I
(29:41):
think some of it is.
They maybe know that peoplefrom their church won't come and
support us, but that's not adeal breaker for me.
If nobody from yourcongregation shows up to do this
with us, I still need a placeto do it, this with us.
I still need a place to do it,and I do only operate on behalf
of a congregation, which is Iwant to be representing a
(30:02):
congregation because it is agreat commission issue.
You baptize and you teach.
Well, I don't do any baptizingand almost no teaching.
There is a place in thecommunity where that occurs.
It's your congregation.
I'm going to get out and I'mgoing to plug people into the
place of baptizing and teaching,and so.
But I've found nodiscrimination in the sense of
(30:23):
I'm unable to predict who willallow me to come in and who will
not, so that would be more onthe missional side of things.
No, the one time I got an answeris no, we focus on relational
evangelism, so kind of what yousaid at the beginning.
It's an outmoded form, itdoesn't work, so to speak.
That's the one time I, you know, they gave me an answer.
(30:44):
I disagree with it.
They did give me an answer, butyou know, and the other guys on
the other side, you know, oneguy said, well, you guys have
used to bring a songbook with meand we kind of open with some
guitar music.
I can play like two songs onthe guitar, and so I said, well,
I'll just leave that behind.
I said, if you don't want to dothat, I said, just, you know,
we'll sing something out of thehymnal.
(31:04):
And he still wouldn't let mecome out, which was kind of how
I knew it really wasn't aboutthe guitar, there's something
else happening.
But so in that regard, Ihaven't seen that divide in
receptivity to what I'm up to.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
What percentage of churches say yes or no?
Do you know that spread?
Speaker 2 (31:20):
I don't know what that percentage is.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
Okay.
Well, what I do know is Phoenixis open for business.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
All right, all right, yeah.
So I just got to get down there.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
Yeah, you got a church here and there's lots of
our circuit congregations herein the East Valley which is
rapidly growing.
You know we're looking atmulti-site, we're looking at
church planting and all of thatand we work with the Unstuck
group right now.
They're some of the preeminentkind of multi-site executive
(31:56):
director in the non-denom world.
They call it an executivepastor of one of the largest
multi-sites here in Phoenix andhe's I just was on a phone call
with him yesterday and he'shelping us nail our strategy to
reach more people with thegospel.
Why?
Because we're not even touchingthe tip of the iceberg.
You could be the most mega,mega, mega.
And there are thousands andthousands of people not only
(32:17):
that aren't in church.
We're bringing in MaricopaCounty.
There's a thousand peoplemoving here every week, tim yeah
that's, it's just.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
I can't even wrap my head around it.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
Exactly so all I'm praying for is there's multiple
ways to reach multiple peopleand if even one person came
because of a like, there's nolove lost.
I mean, you don't have to likeus, whatever we're out.
We're public and ChristGreenfield has a very, you know,
public reputation for ourschool and things like that.
So any way to like, get ourmaterials in the homes of people
(32:52):
that are far from Jesus.
The misnomer here iseverybody's a Mormon around
there.
You know At one time for sure.
Even this is how rapidlycommunities change.
12 years ago, when I moved here,it was well over 50% of Gilbert
that was Mormon.
Well, Gilbert's grown from150,000 people to 250,000 people
in those 12 years, and the vastmajority of that growth is from
(33:14):
outside.
Here the percentage of Mormonfamilies is now probably around
40% and declining, even thoughthey're having more kids, and it
appears as if, because they gota church at every square mile,
they have the corner market onit.
But nothing could be furtherfrom the truth.
So, all that to say, we'd loveto have you down here in Phoenix
helping us expand the gospel.
(33:35):
Hey, let's close with pastoralcare.
Last 10 minutes here, or soYou're the general editor of the
Sealsorger, a journal for thecontemporary cure of souls.
It's a publishing arm ofdoxology.
So what's your primary emphasisas you talk?
Soul care, Tim.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
Pastors focus in on like the word and sacrament
ministry part of the job, liketalking about Jesus, not getting
entirely swallowed up by kindof the day-to-day, the
day-to-day stuff.
There's a church 40 miles westof me in Concordia, kansas.
There's a city in Kansas calledConcordia that doesn't have a
(34:14):
Missouri Synod Lutheran churchin it.
So we're planting a church overthere and over there there's
this giant black hole andthey're struggling to get a
pastor to just even help themkind of get off the ground.
So I'm almost the closestchurch to them so I'm currently
serving them functionally, kindof being a dual point parish
(34:35):
right now.
But because I'm serving Zionand Lynn, we have a Lutheran
school, we got some Spanishministry stuff going on.
That's a significant investmentof my time.
All I can really do is get overthere kind of preach, do the
shut-in visit.
You know really just focus inon those core tasks that I am
uniquely equipped to do.
They need to do the rest.
They got to rise up and theygot to lead on the other aspects
(34:59):
and so, in soul care, it'sreally refreshing when a
congregation just kind of freesyou up to do this stuff, like
I'm going to tell people aboutJesus.
I'm going to focus in onprepping a Bible study and
preaching a faithful andengaging sermon and I'm going to
get out, and so that's a lot ofwhat the soul care task is
(35:20):
looking like.
We're currently working onvolume 10 of our journal.
I published an essay in volume8 and 9.
In volume 8, it was our onlythematic journal and we were
dealing with pastoral care andcohabitation.
That's like tough right,because you don't agree with
what they're doing, but they arepeople who need to know about
(35:40):
Jesus, and so how do you guidethem through that?
How do you guide, shepherd themwith a firm but gentle hand,
right, not compromising thetruth but also letting them know
there's a better way here.
And so we wrestled with a lotof different issues on that one
In my previous parish I moved inostensibly Midwest congregation
(36:01):
.
There were 30 different coupleson the books when I got there
that were cohabiting.
Many of them were my Sundayschool teachers.
So we had to address that, andso I wrote an essay.
I called it Inherited Sin wasthe title of the essay
shepherding the cohabitingcouples you inherit.
So that was one.
And then the last issue I wrotean essay on when should a pastor
(36:22):
invoke his divine call.
So when does the pastor say I'mthe called man of god here?
And why should a pastor, shoulda pastor ever do it?
And if so, under what?
What circumstance?
Because that can be abused.
That was my premise.
Like this gets abused.
I pitched this as an idea to thejournal and, uh, there were a
couple of dps that were aroundwhen I said it.
(36:44):
One of them literally got outof his chair and said can you
write that essay?
Yesterday?
This is an issue, is right, soit's that kind of stuff.
Like you got to recognize where.
Like this is not about you,it's not about your personality.
Not everything that goessideways is an attack on you or
even the office.
We're just not.
We're fighting againstprincipalities and powers, not
(37:04):
flesh and blood.
And so let's let's focus in onthat.
And my premise was you invokeyour divine call when you are
trying to emphasize gospel andyou get out of the way when
you're doing the loss.
That was essentially Becauseeven in the divine service,
that's when we do it.
The only time you'd say thatyou're called is when you're
going to tell them that they'reforgiven.
(37:25):
Hey, you know.
So I remember this gal Dora.
She was dying in the hospitaland she, you know, confessed
cancer, young gal, and she justsaid I feel like God has
forgotten me.
Well, there's an opportunity toinvoke the divine call.
It's like, hey, like God calledme here to make sure that you
(37:46):
know, in this room, in this town, on this day, that he has not
forgotten you.
Communicate in hand, let'sforgive your sins and make sure
you have a clean conscience.
Then you know that if anythinggoes wrong, you know exactly
where you stand with your Lord.
So that kind of stuff withpastoral care, and it doesn't
lend itself to very easyprescription.
So there's a lot of room fordisagreement among brothers of
(38:07):
the brotherhood, like, oh, Iwould handle that situation in
this way, I would handle thatsituation that way.
What kind of?
What are the filters?
What are you thinking about?
Are you keeping the main thing,the main thing, jesus Christ
and his righteousness?
And so that's kind of whatwe're going for with the Soul
Care Journal and even with whatwe were talking about pastoral
formation.
Tyler Arnold is writing an essayright now about the passage in
(38:30):
1 Timothy 3 about pastors shouldmanage their own households
well, and so what do we do whenpastors' children fall from the
faith or conduct themselves in ascandalous lifestyle.
Is this disqualifying them fromministry?
Is it not disqualifying themfrom ministry?
How is Satan using this to tryto undermine your ministry?
I mean, he's asked it's goingto be good and there's kind of a
gap.
There's not a lot written onthis particular issue.
(38:53):
But you hear guys and are thereguys who want to get out of the
ministry and they're justlooking around for an excuse and
they find their kid dosomething stupid and they're
like, ah, that was a gateway Ineeded to get out of here.
Meanwhile we have the catechismurged them to stay and do their
duty.
So Tyler Arnold is doing areally good job of wrestling
through that issue right now.
It's going to be a blessing tothe church.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
Hey, that's so good.
One question I have to ask,going back to what you were
saying around when we invoke ourdivine call, the office you
said gospel, but not law weshouldn't invoke it when we're
talking in the realm of the law.
Would you say more about whatyou mean there, tim?
Speaker 2 (39:33):
Yeah.
So my presumption is that whenthings blow up in a congregation
around this issue, it's becausethe pastor says he invokes his
divine call to kind of leveragehis importance.
So if they're going to make adecision, well I'm the called
(39:55):
man here and so therefore youneed to do this.
And so God didn't call you toinvoke the call so that you can
coerce behavior.
He called you to do Word andSacrament ministry, and so I do
put in the essay.
If people read it like thereare occasions where it's
probably appropriate.
(40:15):
I can think of one time in myministry that I did it and I
would do it again.
But generally speaking, that'skind of my premise.
Like if you find yourselfconstantly invoking the divine
call to get your way, you're outof line.
You're just out of line.
Speaker 1 (40:30):
Sorry.
Well, yeah, I mean you'releveraging the office toward
power, right, Rather thaninvitation, and it may work in
the short term, it doesn't workin the long term.
The spirit of invitation,negotiation, care for people
with different perspectives,that is the office of holy
(40:51):
ministry Walking with people whohave different opinions than
you do If everybody.
You know one of my favoritestatements ministry would be
great if it just weren't for thepeople.
Well, you know, you probablyshould get out of ministry if
you don't really like peoplewith diverse perspectives.
I think people are fascinating,how they arrived at different.
You know, god made me supercurious If I could pray for one
trade among pastors.
It's just more curiosity andlove for all different types of
(41:14):
people, finding people very,very fascinating and seeing a
church that's very eclectic.
I think we got all differentsorts of people.
There's no other organizationlike the local church that has
the arms wide open socioeconomic, racial, you know, diverse,
everybody is here, no Jew, noGentile, slave, free, young, old
, rich, poor, male, female.
We're all one in Christ,Galatians 3.28.
So, like that's going to bemessy, just saying there's one
(41:37):
time, tim, I got to tell thestory One, one time that I
probably in a staff meeting andI have enough distance now where
I can tell this without gettingpeople too angry at me but we
had been raising money by theHoly Spirit's power to build a
gym in Phoenix, gilbert, arizona, here you know.
I mean it's so stinking hot, sohot, and we'd spent so much
(41:58):
time and attention, peoplegiving very sacrificially, $4.2
million project raised about$3.5 million toward that end.
So a lot of energy had goneinto this.
And one of our campus directorsI'll leave her name not on this
podcast, she's a sweetheartthough, but she came in and they
were talking floors, tim, allright, and now they had.
(42:19):
They had these kind ofmulti-use, function, plasticky,
kind of rubbery floor concepts.
I about lost my mind Because I'ma basketball guy, right, and I
was like it will be wood.
There was a Luther moment.
I'm banging on the table, itwas.
It was that as a call to nameservant of the word, make it a
(42:41):
wood floor.
And anyway, I'm kind of beingsilly, but they're like man,
you're passionate.
You're passionate about that.
That is the only time.
Every every other time it'sbeen negotiation.
Speaker 2 (42:50):
So being funny, I think one thing I'm really
people generally don't need toknow where I stand on an issue,
you know.
But I'll just be honest withthem.
Like wow, I've got a strongopinion about that, I think it
should be this, but I don't thenlike leverage that.
And then if they, if they, takean action that's contrary to my
opinion, which has happened andthen that does not result in me
(43:10):
being petty or treating themany differently.
Now I've only increased mytrust and they've increased
their trust and we just we work,we work better.
So you know, those piffs andsaps and stuff there was.
There was one of the questionswas where are you on
confirmation before FirstCommunion, before confirmation?
And I said I am pro FirstCommunion before confirmation,
(43:32):
but I've never successfullymoved a congregation that
direction.
But they've all known, they'veall know I've been very, very
honest about like no, this isyou know, but you know I'm not
gonna, I'm not gonna strong armit through.
They just they know.
Speaker 1 (43:44):
No, that I mean it, just it doesn't it't work.
To be quite honest with mystory, the reason they took my
opinion is because I playedbasketball Right Like my whole,
my whole life, and I understoodthe experience is way better on
a wood floor.
It had nothing to do with my,my ministry.
They're like, wow, ok, maybe,and we love our, we love our gym
to this day.
But, yeah, the church wins.
(44:06):
You know the people of God, theelders, the board, whatever.
The church wins.
You know the people of God, theelders, the board, whatever.
There's so many stories ofpastors trying to play the power
card and it going sideways,because it's counter to the
spirit, it's counter to the HolySpirit, it's counter to the
spirit of Jesus, who didn'tcoerce.
He invited his disciples comeand follow me and some didn't
(44:26):
follow.
You know, I mean I think of therich young man go and sell
everything you have and come andfollow me.
Well, I don't do that.
Speaker 2 (44:33):
You know we get hurt.
Like you can be honest aboutthat.
Like for sure I'm miserablebecause I was really passionate
about this thing and I thought Iwas doing it the right way and
I thought I'd made a reallycompelling case and it didn't.
It didn't go.
That hurts.
I don't know of anybody whodoesn't think that that hurts.
But the solution is not moredomineering spirit, like that's
(44:53):
not.
Yeah, amen, amen.
I hate Tim You're not standingbefore the judgment seat of
Christ.
And Jesus says you know youreally could have leveraged your
divine call and push thisthrough.
I don't think so.
Speaker 1 (45:04):
No, no, no.
It's the humility of Christ,the kindness of Christ that
draws us, and then we can behonest.
Like you say, if it doesn't go,we're human and ministry is
messy for sure If people want toconnect with you and your
website, and so let us know howyou can sign up for Sealsorger,
the journal, as well as yourtraining there, tim.
Speaker 2 (45:21):
All right.
So Sealsorger, you can go todoxologyus and it's under the
resources tab and they're goingto be.
The next one's coming out soon.
You can get them all.
You can buy all of them on Lulu.
And Zalesorger is a reallyweird German name.
It's a word, it's a German word, so it doesn't, but it's
S-E-E-L-O-R-G-E-R.
It means soul care in German.
(45:42):
So that's maybe a marketingmistake.
One thing at a time.
And then Jesus, door to Door isJD2D.
You know I love going out.
If you really want to fly me outand lead your congregation
through it, give me six monthsnotice and we'll talk.
But the congregations have donethis.
There was a congregation inMaine.
They did it four weeks in a row.
I wasn't there.
They just called and asked forthe resources and picked my
brains over the phone and theywent out and did it on their own
(46:03):
.
Hope Lutheran Church in IdahoFalls Falls did the same thing.
There's a church in Lawton,oklahoma, that's doing it.
So Marmole, arkansas, they'redoing it.
There's a church in Fraser,michigan, that's doing it
without my help.
So you don't need me.
It's pretty plug and play ifyou want to give it a go.
And I mean, what's the worstcase scenario?
People don't show up, they'realready not coming.
You're not out anything.
Speaker 1 (46:24):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (46:25):
You learn how to articulate the faith.
So that would probably be mylast thing.
On the door-to-door stuff, asmuch as I love the lost and my
heart yearns for them and I wantthem to know the joy of Jesus,
probably the number one benefitit sounds self-serving is what
it does to the people who go out.
Your faith will be strengthened, your articulation, it's just,
it's healthy.
Speaker 1 (46:51):
If I never found another person for the kingdom
this way, I'd still do itbecause it increases interest in
the kingdom of God among thepeople who participate.
That's the way it works when weserve, give, learn, try, fail,
we grow and grow more up intoJesus.
Who is the head?
Yeah, so I'm grateful for you,tim.
What a joy to spend some timewith you.
This is the Tim Allman podcast.
Please like, subscribe, commentwherever it is you take in
these podcasts and we pray thatyou've drawn closer to Jesus,
maybe laughed a little bit withus and as we unite, smaller,
(47:14):
larger churches unite togetherto make Jesus known.
The days are too short to doanything.
Otherwise it's a good day.
Go make it a great day.
Thanks so much, tim.
Your blessing, thank you.
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