April 23, 2025 • 51 mins
What if developing youth leaders wasn't about having the coolest, most relatable youth pastor? What if the most effective behaviors for nurturing young servant leaders were actually accessible to anyone willing to show up consistently?
Jonathan Kopecky and Jackie Druckhammer share findings from their Youth Leadership Initiative research project, revealing vital behaviors that help develop young leaders in the church. Their data shows that anyone can effectively mentor youth regardless of age or "coolness factor" when they focus on showing up consistently and seeing the whole person.
Visit nowlcms.org/YLI to download the full report and access the tools they've developed for implementing these findings in your ministry.
• Looking for "positive deviants" to identify behaviors that disproportionately affect youth leadership development
• Discovering the importance of "I see you" before "I see in you" - valuing the person before their gifts
• The vital behavior of "showing up" - youth remember who was present more than what was said
• Creating a posture of hearing and listening as a safe space for youth
• The "power of yes" - changing from "why not" to "how can we make this happen"
• Finding something for every youth to do by identifying doors to open
• Moving youth "further up and further in" through progressive involvement
• Creating tools like the "no name journal" to help adults track and nurture youth development
• Building a ministry culture that sees youth as current leaders, not just future ones
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's not that every youth has to do everything or
any particular thing.
It's that there is something todo for every youth, something
that they can be invited in.
So I just think there's so muchfreedom in that because,
regardless of you know urban orrural size of your church, your
worship practice, you know oursynods, on a spectrum with our
(00:23):
regions, you regions, our width,our breadth, all of those
things, and the good news inthis is that it can be applied
anywhere, because it's aboutopening a door.
The door doesn't matter so muchthe characteristics of the door
, but if you can train yourselfto have eyes, to see the
God-given gifts in your youthand to look for doors to open,
(00:45):
to invite them further up andfurther in, to say yes to the
things that are on their heartsand bring them into your
ministry, that is where thissurvey showed the success.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Welcome to the Tim Allman Podcast.
It's a beautiful day to bealive.
Pray, the joy of Jesus is yourstrength, as today I get to hang
out with two servant leaders inthe Lutheran Church Missouri
Synod who have poured their lifeinto the next generation.
If there's one thing I couldcharge for you as a pastor, as a
leader, as a lay leader, carefor love, challenge, pray for
(01:23):
those who are being raised rightnow in these, as many people
say, these unprecedented times.
So much societal change and wehave to cast vision for our
young people being present-dayleaders and the future-day
leaders within the church forthe advancement of the kingdom
of God.
Let me introduce you to myguests.
Jonathan and Jackie are DCEsserving congregations in the
(01:44):
Northwest District of thekingdom of God.
Let me introduce you to myguests.
Jonathan and Jackie are DCEsserving congregations in the
Northwest District of the LCMS.
So it's Jackie Druckhammer andJonathan Capecchi.
Since becoming a Christian at17 years old, jonathan has had a
heart for people who don't knowJesus.
That is very, very true.
In addition to serving as ayouth minister at Hope in
Seattle, he has also coordinatedthe launch of the Youth
Leadership Initiative Survey,which is what we're going to be
(02:06):
talking about today invitingchurch leaders in the Northwest
District and beyond to reflecton the formative experiences
that help draw young people intoleadership.
Jonathan has most recently beenaccepted into the CMC program.
He's right at the very front ofthat.
The Cross-Cultural Ministry.
Church Formation I alwaysforget what it stands for.
I taught in it for like eightyears, or whatever.
But cross-cultural work.
Church formation I alwaysforget what it stands for.
(02:26):
I taught in it for like eightyears, or whatever.
But cross-cultural work.
Praise be to God.
He's serving now as a vicar.
Jackie serves part-time as achildren's minister at her home
congregation in St John inVancouver, washington.
What a beautiful part of theworld.
Both of your locations areextraordinary, god said.
I'm going to put a little bitmore beauty in this area of my
creation.
Where she was first introducedto DCE ministry Director of
(02:49):
Christian Education Ministry.
Over the years, jackie andJonathan have volunteered in the
Northwest District programs andevents to help connect, equip
and encourage our leaders.
They are excited to be a partof this project we're going to
talk about today, which focuseson encouraging youth to use
their God given gifts as leadersin his, in his, kingdom.
How are you guys doing today?
Jackie, you loving life, sister.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Amen, yeah, what's giving you?
Speaker 2 (03:12):
the most joy right now.
Let's start out with that.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Oh, I have a three, almost four year old and he's
like on the cusp of reading, buthe has a good memory.
So we're trying to figure outwhat he's just remembering
versus what he's figuring out onhis own, and it's just a joy to
see the world kind of beingdiscovered again a new through
the eyes of a toddler.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
So I mean that three year old year in child
development.
My daughter is in in earlychildhood.
She's taking classes, want tobe an early childhood, you know,
teacher, maybe director downthe line.
But she's like Dad, you know,like two to three years old is
when they start to like learnhow to share and like be a human
that cares about other humansand stuff.
So he, he's right in there andit sounds like he's developing
(03:53):
well.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Yes, Before I left to come do this, he handed me a
little Jesus tag to remind methat you know Jesus is with me
while I go podcast.
So, yes, the learning isamazing.
I love it.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Future leader in the church.
So good, Our current leaderpoint us.
It's cool.
Through the eyes of little kidsthey point us to what is most
important and that is thepresence of Jesus.
Welcome, little children.
Jonathan.
What's given you the most joy,brother?
Good to hang out with you, man.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Oh man, yeah, it's great to be here.
Thank you so much for having us.
I think, man, like what is themost joy right now?
I think just the Lord likepushing me in ways that I just
(04:40):
did not know that it could bepossible, in good and bad and
challenging, and in just fun.
Yeah, I mean, yeah, I couldspend a long time.
I can't really like narrow onething down because I've had so
much challenge and so much likejoy right now, especially like
last 10 weeks, but it's been.
It's been phenomenal and I canhang out with you.
So this is this has been my joyright now, for the last week is
like preparing for this.
I love it.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
We're going to have a great time.
Jonathan's wife, amy, and I goback to.
I knew Amy when we were gosh 10, well, 13, 14, 15, 16, writing
that and then college was a partof praise at Concordia
University in Nebraska.
I think it's still going on onWednesday nights.
She's an amazingsinger-songwriter with you, as
(05:22):
well as an author copywriter.
If you don't know Amy Kopecky,she was a part of and I just
found this out of the story.
This is the chronological,continuous story of all 66 books
put into one book, one readablebook which you should read the
Bible.
But the story is a pretty greatrepresentation of the entire
narrative arc of scripture and Ididn't even know that Amy was a
part of that some 13, 14 yearsago.
(05:42):
She's kind of a big deal,jonathan.
You married up, bro.
I really did, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
Yeah so good, oh man, yeah, it's awesome.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Tell me what you're learning in CMC.
What's hot right now?
Speaker 3 (05:54):
Man, I mean, I think just the my hermeneutics class
is just mind blowing right now.
It's just like being able toopen up the Bible and look at
word studies from the OldTestament to the New Testament
is is something that has justbeen really, really amazing.
And yeah, shout out toProfessor Eshelbach because he's
phenomenal, but yeah, it's.
Yeah, I mean it's just it'sopening up a new world and I'm
(06:15):
really stepping into it andtrying to follow Jesus in it.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
For sure, isn, I'm really stepping into it and
trying to follow Jesus in it.
For sure Isn't it cool Likeyou've been in the church
leadership for a long time,right yeah, since I was six.
Yeah, there's always more tolearn.
I did a podcast with JimMarriott, a classmate of mine
from Concordia, nebraska, and hetold me something about the
Kyrie.
Lord, have mercy on us.
Lord, have mercy on us.
It was a cry for the Jews, forGod's mercy, not just for them
(06:49):
but for the nations.
So there was like a missionalcomponent to even the Kyrie that
we sing in our liturgicaltraditional services.
I mean, how bonkers is that?
So all that to say, there'sgold in them, their heels, and
that gold does not run out,jonathan.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
It doesn't, yeah, it's's, it's, yeah, it's insane.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Yeah, always more.
So let's get into it.
Tell us about the servantleadership survey you conducted
in 2022.
What was the aim and focus?
We'll start with you, though,jonathan, and then Jackie, you
can fill in the gaps.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
Yeah, I mean the focus, I mean it was, I mean,
crucial influence is a hugeshout out.
So I mean we, we read that book, we were.
We found out that like therecould be a vital behavior for
something that maybe that couldpotentially create leaders, and
and maybe there's a vitalbehavior that we're missing.
Jackie can speak like volumesto like the examples in the book
about you know just ways inwhich they actually created
(07:35):
vital, vital behaviors, but wereally wanted to take that and
try to say if there was like wewould just ask people and what
was the way that you guys likewere influenced by leaders?
Like you know, you have a stronglike we started with leaders,
like adult leaders in DCEs, etcetera, and like what was like
what was impactful for you, andjust general idea and questions
(07:56):
of maybe that could be it, andthen we formalized those into a
survey.
We got 64, I think, responses,and then we pushed forward and
we had a small group that did it, and then we launched it, and
then we were like, okay, how arewe going to do this?
And we compiled it all and,yeah, that's kind of our heart.
Behind it, though, is that wewanted to find if there was
(08:16):
possible to find something thatcould absolutely transform or
huge pivot is basically what avital behavior is is to
completely pivot that influence.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
That's so good, Jackie.
Go deeper in terms of vitalbehaviors.
What does that mean?
That's actually a newer termfor me as well.
I've talked about behaviors.
I've done the HarrisonBehavioral Assessment, but
honing in on vital behaviors,that's a combination of words I
don't normally hear very often.
Would you talk about that,Jackie?
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Yeah.
So we love the HarrisonAssessment because of all of the
profiles out there that canhelp you understand you better.
We talk about that one as beingcoachable.
It's behavior-based, it's notinnate what you were born with,
stuff you're stuck with can'tchange.
It's all coachable.
You can improve on things, youcan lean into your strengths,
(09:04):
all of that.
And so there's been a ton ofresearch across our synod and
Christianity even just sociologyin general about youth and
faith and retention and thingslike that.
But a lot of it ischaracteristic based or things
like that.
Even the first survey that wewere building off of found tags
(09:26):
under like attitudes, skills,abilities, gifts and all those
are important to document.
But it was that behaviordistinction that we really
wanted to lean into because itis coachable.
It's stuff that anybody can do,anybody can be trained in,
anyone can practice, can getbetter at, and so vital behavior
the Crucial Influence bookdefines it as a new behavior
(09:49):
that disproportionately affectsthe results you want to achieve.
So one of the easy examples inthe book was they were trying to
.
The easy examples in the bookwas they were trying to
eradicate a disease in thirdworld countries and they
identified a positive deviant,which is one of my new favorite
terms.
They're like which communityisn't having this problem as
(10:11):
much In a positive way.
They are deviating from thenorm and they found that it was
a water-based illness.
That it was a water-basedillness and they found that in
that population the simplebehavior was that they were
filtering their water beforethey consumed it and that was
creating this.
You know, the vital behavior wasstraining the water and it was
(10:36):
creating this very positivedeviation in that community of
their infection rates were waylower.
So they introduced this vitalbehavior of take two water jugs
with you when you go get waterand that simple behavior makes
it so much easier to strain yourwater, eradicate the illness
and it, you know itdisproportionately affected the
results of freeing those peoplefrom this illness.
A really simple behavior changejust take a second water jug
(10:58):
with you when you go get yourwater.
But the results were incrediblein bringing healing to that
community.
So those were the kind ofthings we were looking before.
Are there almost like thesepivot lever points of if we do
these simple thingsintentionally and you know, for
good reason, regularly all ofthose things, and you know, for
good reason, regularly all ofthose things can we
(11:21):
disproportionately affect theway young people are growing as
servant leaders.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
I want to be a positive deviant.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
That's my new life goal.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
You guys are both positive deviants too.
You're bringing some growth andchallenge to the church.
That's so good.
So tell me about some of thepositive deviant work.
Or let's get deeper intobehaviors, and I love behaviors.
Coachability, et cetera makes alot of sense.
Behaviors can and should changeover time.
We're not talking about skills,abilities, the innate kind of
(11:55):
gifts.
No, this is the heart andcharacter of Christ that can
grow in us and that's why I lovethe Harrison, taking it every
two to three years because youcan see over a long period of
time.
You know, I used to one of myfavorite indicators.
I used to struggle withmanaging stress.
Well, that's one of my favoritebecause the flip indicator from
dynamic to passive behavioraltraits, and now I've grown in
(12:17):
terms of, maybe I have somehabits of wellness, self-care,
and now things that used totrigger me no longer do at least
to the level that they once did.
Would you speak to some ofthose behavioral changes that
disproportionately affect growthin young people?
What are we talking about here,jonathan?
Speaker 3 (12:38):
I think the coolest one that we've seen so far is
the ability of showing up andwhat that looks like.
That one, along with hearing andlistening, were by far the two
that just stood out immensely,and what that means and what
revealed through the research isthat that person can just show
(13:00):
up and it like literally justshow up.
I mean it's that simple and,like what Jackie says, vital
behavior is something that islike disproportionately,
something that just absolutelytransformed something in a huge,
pivotal way where you just likeit's that little thing and it's
not about.
It's not about I mean, it'sabout character, but it's not
about like you know, you have tobe this cool youth pastor or
whatever.
Like it's not about that at all.
(13:21):
It's about your heart and beingable to show up and yeah, I
mean literally just being there.
And one thing of the surveythat we saw is that it's not
about like no one reallyremembered what anybody said.
They just remembered that theywere there and so that was like
just huge for us, or yeah, forus just to be able to see that.
(13:41):
It was just the idea of showingup.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Humans are so funny, aren't we?
Because it's totally true.
And it's kind of depressing atthe very same time.
It's like no one's going toremember, like how hard I worked
to put together that wellarticulated message, and like
the hook that landed at just theright time.
Like, yeah, no one really cares.
Bro.
Now I could challenge thatlovingly, because people did
(14:05):
care, and write down the wordsof Jesus like words actually
matter.
But words are used because whatis most of human interaction
it's nonverbal or it'spre-verbal, like I'm here for
you, I'm open to you, I'mcurious about you, I'm going to
follow up.
I'm here for you, I'm open toyou, I'm curious about you, I'm
going to follow up, I'm going toask questions about you and
(14:27):
then I'm going to deeply listen.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
I'm, I'm here for you .
Anything more to say about that, jackie?
Well, so that's actually kindof a process that emerged
through our research.
We were building off of aprevious study in our district
that identified a lot ofcharacteristics and attributes
of leaders a lot ofcharacteristics and attributes
of leaders and we launched ourprevious district president
launched this initiative with anICNU toolkit.
So, knowing what our peoplelook for and are blessed by in
(14:53):
servant leaders, the idea wasthat we would look for those
things in the next generationand name them and invite them
into an equipping process tomove into leadership more.
So we had this I see in youmentality that we were working
toward of looking for giftednessand things like that, and we
(15:14):
certainly saw that in ourresearch too.
But we had this other layer andwe ended up calling it I see you
so, before your giftedness,your ability, what you bring to
the table, just the fact thatGod created you to be you, and I
see you as God's beloved child,for who you are, regardless of
anything that comes after.
(15:34):
That was a really a really coolthing that we saw come through
the data too, like, yes, this isabout the giftedness God has
given you for carrying out Hiswork in the kingdom, but before
that, and not as a steppingstone to it or anything like
that, but just first andforemost, who you are as God's
beloved person and beingsomebody that cares about that
person and wants to get to knowthat person and help you know
(15:58):
that you are loved and valuable.
To get to know that person andhelp you know that you are loved
and valuable and that, yes, too, god has gifted you to help be
a part of his mission in theworld.
But even before any of that,you were still his beloved child
.
Before you bring anything tothe table.
It was really neat to see thatcome through so strongly in the
research, Because, you know wetalk about in the paper a lot of
(16:19):
this fits with our gutinstincts, but the fact that the
data corroborates it and really, you know, just supports those
things that we've felt aspractitioners for so long, that
was really neat to see, and itso aligns with our gospel
understanding as Lutherans too.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
Yeah, absolutely so.
How is ICU?
That's such a great handle.
Before I seen you, I see you.
How is that connected tohearing and listening?
You kind of differentiatedthose behaviors, Jackie.
Would you take us into that?
Speaker 1 (16:54):
Yeah, let's see, we added these kind of extra
taglines to hearing andlistening and to showing up of
of presence and posture.
And so, for hearing andlistening, it's just this
posture of a nonjudgmental, openspace where a youth can come to
(17:16):
you, uh, with anything, knowingyou're a safe space.
As a toddler mom right now,I've heard people talk about
when my kid does something wrong, which inevitably it's going to
happen.
I hope that their first thoughtisn't like, oh, my mom's going
to kill me, but I can't wait togo to my mom and get help with
(17:36):
this.
That kind of open posture likeI am here to hear and listen to
whatever you have to say, likewe are in this.
Together we'll figure it out.
I'm here for you, I'm a supportto you.
That, that that posture ofcoming to the relationship,
ready to hear, ready to listen,whether it's a good circumstance
or a challenging one.
And I think to be that personthat can do that work, you have
(18:03):
to have invested in the IC, inyou a little bit more and you
know really it needs to be anauthentic relationship.
It's not for the sake of workand I plug you in as a volunteer
in my ministry but just thatfirst foundational work of I
(18:23):
want to be a person in your lifethat is a safe place to listen
to you, to hear what you have tosay, because I've invested the
work in getting to know you as aperson before anything else.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
This is like hot on my mind just because I'm reading
this right now.
But like when Jesus visits thewoman at the well, the disciples
come back and they're likeshocked, like they're like
marvel, like what are you doing,talking this woman?
And like I see you would belike Jesus didn't see.
Like Jesus saw the woman andbut saw, like you know, saw it,
like saw her, not just like that, the fact that she's a woman
you're not supposed to talk to awoman and she's a Samaritan and
(18:55):
below from you know all the,all the but like Jesus saw her
and the disciples saw her as awoman, being like, oh my gosh,
what are you doing?
And like that's kind of likethe idea is that you like you
see the person not just assomeone who can fulfill a
volunteer role, but like you see, you see them and it's, it's
pretty huge.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Well, that's so good.
Jesus is no respecter ofpersons, right?
Like there's nothing aboutJesus that it's like wow, that
guy, he's amazing, or she's, orthat guy, that guy's a train
wreck, you know, he sees likeeverything about us and the
audacity of the gospel is thathe loves all of us.
(19:34):
He draws all of us, the good,the bad, the ugly, all of it.
He knows us completely, heknows us better than we know
ourselves and yet he welcomes usin us, personally, individually
and collectively, as his church, broken and battered by our sin
in the world and Satan as weare, he welcomes us all into his
, into his family.
Like that should changeradically the way we care for I
(19:59):
interacted with a brother whowrote, who wrote a book called
Becoming the Gospel, michaelGorman, and he talks about the
new identity that we have as afollower of Jesus.
And this is as Lutherans, wetalk about this in the two kinds
of righteousness, right, I meanwhat flows from Jesus passive
faith and gets actively livedout in love for neighbor.
(20:21):
That can sound so kind of triteand I just kind of.
I've been indoctrinated intothis sort of way of viewing the
scriptures, which is a very,very helpful thing, but it must
move out in love and care foreveryone, for in youth ministry,
for the jock that loves sportsand for the and I don't like
(20:42):
these labels, but those who area little more heady into school
and everywhere, the artisan andeverywhere in between all these
labels they get kind of.
I have this vision that ouryouth ministry would be a place
Cause I experienced this withyour, with your wife there, amy
I mean my youth experience was aplace where all types of kids
could come and were welcome, andnot only that, they invited
(21:04):
their friends.
Like.
I want that here at ChristGreenfield more, and we're
working toward it for sure.
But there's we've kind ofbifurcated into these and I
think social media has nothelped a whole lot, right that
well, I don't know.
This is a youth group for thiskind of kid or for this kind of
kid or for this kind of kid, andso maybe I'm going down a
little bit of a rabbit hole here, but I think it's a good one.
(21:24):
What?
does it look like for our youthministry to be a place where
every kid is welcomed and canbelong.
Jonathan, and then Jackson.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
Well, what you're talking about right now is what
we saw in the research calledfurther up and further in, or
further in and further up, sorryIs.
Or furthering in, further up,sorry is.
That idea is that like, soyou're welcomed.
And then what is the next step?
So it's not just like you, justdon't stop there.
And so, like our example was,is that, you know, like
communion, you know, so there'sa church that has a
(21:50):
four-year-old, instead of justputting the communion on a bag,
like the communion, you know, ifyou're doing like you know,
walk by and you're doing yourthing and you drop the communion
cup into a basket and you moveon right, instead of just having
that be on a table, theyactually have a four-year-old
that holds it.
You know, like just something,that's like something silly,
like that.
But like that, is this idea like, I see you right that you can
actually, you can actually servethe Lord in a way of capacity
(22:12):
of just holding the community.
Like, basically, it's the, it'sthe rubbish, like cause it's
going to be, it's going to berecycled, but it's like it's.
It's like you get a smilingface on a kid.
The kid's like I'm, I'm doingthis is amazing, and then so
that's like, that's one way,like I see you that you can help
.
And then, and then I, and thenthe next step is like okay, now
that that four-year-old it'sjust, it's like when you really
(22:33):
step back and look at what couldwe do so for youth group, for
anything, for I mean like justthe intergenerational church,
like what are people doing rightnow?
But what are we calling them to?
The next thing and that's, Imean that's leadership and it's
amazing and yeah, it's just,it's phenomenal, so that, yeah,
(22:55):
so what you're talking aboutactually does relate exactly to
what our research is showing,with further in and further up.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
Jackie, do you want to say anything about that?
Well, no, just in exactly thesame vein, what was really
exciting was that none of thisshowed it had to be a particular
kind of program in a particularkind of setting, in a certain
demographic of church or youthgroup.
And the other thread we broughtout of it was it's not that
(23:27):
every youth has to do everythingor any particular thing, it's
that there is something to dofor every youth, something that
they can be invited in.
So I just think there's so muchfreedom in that because,
regardless of urban or ruralsize of your church, your
worship practice, our Synod's,on a spectrum with our regions,
(23:51):
our width, our breadth, all ofthose things.
And the good news in this isthat it can be applied anywhere,
because it's about opening adoor.
The door doesn't matter so muchthe characteristics of the door
, but if you can train yourselfto have eyes to see the
God-given gifts in your youthand to look for doors to open,
(24:12):
to invite them further up andfurther in, to say yes to the
things that are on their heartsand bring them into your
ministry, that is where thissurvey showed the success.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
So good?
Were you surprised, either ofyou, that certain behaviors
didn't show up as like thepositive deviance that you were
expecting?
Any, any surprises or ahas,jackie, we'll start with you.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
That's a good question.
Our survey was very anonymous,intentionally, so I don't know
that we could have seen some ofthat, like this says, as people
rooted in this district.
Pretty well, like we have names,we have leaders, we know and we
saw a few of those pops few ofthose pop, but we've had some
(24:57):
intentional programs over theyear and those weren't
necessarily named by name but wedon't know if they were here,
but we don't see them explicitlynamed, if that makes sense,
because we don't know theparticular response with the
person and we can guess thatthey're alluding to this
situation and things like that.
So I wouldn't say there wasanything that we were shocked
(25:19):
wasn't present on the whole.
It just really aligned with ourour feelings about our own
experience in working with youth, feelings about our own
experience in working with youth, and I think it was anonymous
and generic enough that itreally had this universal kind
of quality that I don't know ifit was the intentionality of how
(25:40):
the survey was conducted or italways would have been this way,
but it really did feelgenerally applicable, not rooted
to the particular instances ofour people and programs here.
That makes sense.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Yeah, Jonathan, anything.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
Yeah, I mean, I think the coolest thing that came out
that I was shocked by but I wasalso just incredibly thrilled
when it started to reveal itselfis the idea that it can be
anybody.
Is the idea that it can beanybody Like?
We just have this idea that youhave to be in order to like,
influence youth.
You have to be this cool personwho's hip, who knows language,
who's on Snap, blah, blah, blah.
All this stuff Turns out youjust have to love youth, and I'm
(26:21):
all about like my heart in theCMC program is developing a
youth culture that'scross-cultural and like building
youth culture and how this tiesinto this is just absolutely
just phenomenal.
And so that's what I love isthat, like anyone, no matter the
size of your youth group, nomatter the size of your church,
no matter how like you know,like if a pastor is like well,
here's our youth leaders, belike, guess what they can create
influence, they can do it.
(26:42):
It doesn't matter.
Like they're like they don'thave any tattoos, that doesn't
matter.
Like it's like, get like, it'sfine.
The coolest thing is that it'sall about like your heart and
just wanting to do these thingsto see youth to show up, to be
involved in their life and thenjust walk with them and then,
when they come to be like I havea problem or whatever it is, be
like that's okay, we're hereand we can handle it and that's
(27:04):
and that's creating the culture.
And yeah, I mean, when I sawthat that was slowly revealing
itself, I was like Dustin,jackie, are you seeing this?
This is so cool, and I don'tknow, it was just, that was just
.
A highlight of mine is beinglike anyone can do this, and
that's the gospel too.
It's like anyone can do it.
(27:24):
So it's I don't know.
I loved when that started toreveal itself.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
Oh, I don't know.
I love, I love when thatstarted to reveal itself.
Oh, I love that too.
So are you seeing some storiesof?
Maybe older adults maybe thinkof?
Speaker 3 (27:38):
people in there.
Well, I'm, I'm, I'm puttingmyself in an age like in the
forties.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
You know, yeah, I know it's not, but forties or
fifties of folks that are sayingyou know what I really want to
go down and they're having animpact.
I get to coach right.
I think that's one of myfavorite ways.
I get to be around, kind ofshoulder to shoulder, with a
number of young men 70 young menfor an intense period of time
for five or six months out ofthe year.
So are you seeing someinfluence?
(28:01):
Like, I think, the stereotype.
Just to bust the stereotype isit's got to be the 25 year old,
it's got to be the guy, he's gottattoos, so you know he has a
past and all this kind of stuff,so you can relate.
Bust some of those misnomers ofthe who gets to pour into kids,
jonathan, and then we'll go toJackie.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
Well, I mean, even in my story, upbringing, I mean,
one of the biggest influenceswas Kurt, and this guy was a
massive dude who worked for aChristian bookstore back in the
day, because they actually werethere, and he would give me a CD
.
And when I started, when mybuddy was dragging me to church,
et cetera, blah, blah, blah, hewould give me a CD almost every
Sunday and I'd be like man, Ihave all these Christian CDs,
(28:38):
I'm not going to listen to themor whatever.
And then he would bring me alike, like, if he only knew what
I did like yet last night hewould be like get out of here,
and he and he never was.
And so, and this guy I meanthis guy was 65 when I was, you
(29:05):
know, I was 15 and he just Idon't know, and generation can
actually yeah, I mean can reallyhave an influence.
And it wasn't that he wasn'tcool, but he just he loved, he
loved well, and he showed up.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
Jackie.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
Yeah, I the in the data.
This project, in its scope,didn't necessarily look for
those things, but, as as we'vebeen talking about it and people
have asked us these kind ofquestions, we've done what we
can to pull things and, like theprofessional church worker
versus lay leader, the maleversus female, the aged adult
(29:41):
versus the you know slightlyolder than me, peer, they're
pretty down the line divisions.
There's no clear majoritywinner in those kind of
categories.
We're working within a limiteddatabase because that wasn't a
question we asked or we weretrying to answer in how we asked
demographic categories of youknow, this was the most
influential person and my ownexperience too.
(30:14):
I grew up at a church that hadDCE interns.
We were a training site forthem.
So, you know, I had a cool,young, hip DCE student every
year, a new one that I got toknow.
But other very influentialpeople are with the Lord already
, or many of them are snowbirdsthat attend your church down um
uh for part of the year, and soyou know the age range and, uh,
(30:36):
demographic range in my ownexperience of people that poured
into me.
It, you know it affirms what wesaw in the data too.
Just yeah, there doesn't seemto be a limiter to the person
that can show up well for you.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
So good, hey, let's talk about the power of yes.
This is one, as I was lookingthrough all of your data the
power of yes for the servantleader as a balance between
fully encouraging and fullychallenging.
That is the line for theparents and for the.
Is that walk in that line,encouraging, but also the
appropriate amount of challengeand the power of yes in that
journey.
(31:12):
Jackie, you want to kick us offthere and then we'll go to
Jonathan.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
This was a super important one to me.
At the beginning of the reportwe referenced the Set Apart to
Serve initiative by the LCMS, aswell as the seven
characteristics of highlyeffective youth leadership.
I'm botching the title of that,but the LCMS Youth Ministry
Office Research and I had theopportunity to hear a report on
(31:37):
that from the Youth MinistryOffice, and so for a long time I
was like are we just trying torecreate the data that they
already published?
But they put out that acongregation should be a place
of.
I think it's warmth,encouragement and challenge,
which very much fits with how wedefine.
(31:57):
Yes, but with ourbehavior-based focus.
If you ask the question, how doyou become a congregation that
is warm, challenging andencouraging, you start saying
yes.
I think that's the next stepand what was so exciting about
this project for me.
And you know, we have the, we'vebeen trained for this, we know
(32:18):
our legal limits, we knowsecurity policies, we know you
know safety and all of that isso important.
We're not meaning to dismissany of that.
But what if we changed ourapproach to ministry when an
idea was brought to us, ratherthan thinking of the reasons why
it might not work?
It might be hard.
It's not what we're focused on.
(32:39):
You know all of the morenegatively connotated reasons to
not do something.
What if we changed our approachto be like, well, huh, what
would it take to make thathappen?
Or what would be good in this?
Or you know just that that flipin how we approach the things
that are already exciting ourkids, and if they're not excited
yet, how do we come up withideas that we invite them to say
(33:02):
yes to too?
So yeah, just that.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
Can you give, jackie?
Can you give?
I love actionable change.
Can you give an example?
Because for some of us you'vebeen a pastor for a while or you
know you just haven't beenaround youth ministry.
Give me an example of a kid whocame up to you with an idea
like wow, okay, we'll give it ashot, and it actually turned out
.
You had to maybe modify it atouch, but it actually turned
out to be a really great idea.
Can you give an example to be areally great idea?
(33:26):
Can you give an example?
And then I'd love to go to you,jonathan, Some great stories
here.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
For a while I was that kid in youth group For our
confirmation program.
We used faith incubators, whichhas a lot of artistic and
creative freedom in it, and soevery week in planning how we
would teach confirmation thenext week, we'd be like could we
bring airsoft guns and make astandoff in the church parking
(33:50):
lot and use that as theintroduction to confession and
absolution?
And our DCEU was like well, letme check our insurance policy
and we'll see what we get.
But we got to do stuff likethat and it really being able to
think through creative ways toget to teach catechismal
concepts made me love the workmore than anything, I think.
(34:10):
And I had a youth in my youthgroup in Spokane that heard
about it's now Youth Lead, butthe Lutheran Youth Fellowship
Initiative, and I forget theconnection of how he heard about
it.
But he's like could we fly toSt Louis for that training?
I was like I don't see, why not?
Like you know, let's look intoit.
And we talked to our leadershipand they we were at a season
(34:32):
where we had graduated nine highschoolers the year before, so
our youth group was much smallerfor that season and they're
like sure, you can use more ofyour budget.
You know a higher amount peryouth, like in this season.
That's fine.
So we went to St Louis and heended up.
We, we had an injury at campthe next summer.
One of our youth leaders torehis Achilles and so I was
(34:54):
driving him to the emergencyroom and that youth was like
Jackie, I got this, like I'vegot the kids, you go.
And it was just this amazingmoment.
And you know, we, we don't doit perfectly.
There's nothing to say that hecouldn't have done that without
having gone to St Louis.
We don't do it perfectly.
There's nothing to say that hecouldn't have done that without
having gone to St Louis.
But just it was really neat tohave that opportunity to pour
into an idea of his and to seehim get excited to use his gifts
(35:16):
down the line.
So cool.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
Jonathan, any stories and or your thoughts on the
power of yes and encouraging andchallenging and walking that
kind of middle road?
Speaker 3 (35:24):
Yeah, I mean, when this came out, I was just
insanely excited because I thinkI am that person and I think
Dustin Jackie can, can, canvalidate that as being like, can
we do this, can we do this, canwe do this?
Almost to the point of beingannoying.
But but yeah, I mean just if,if you can develop a culture
that you don't, your, yourimmediate reaction isn't to say
(35:45):
no, I mean just, I mean evenlike current, you know, like
there's um a student in my youthgroup who's who just started
Christian club in her highschool.
Um, that wasn't like a directinfluence of me, but I think it
was.
You know just the, the cultureof like you can do this, you can
do this, you can do this, andthen, and then yeah, and then
stepping in and and then, yeah,creating a club, or I mean even
(36:08):
even things like, as far as like, like confirmation, like we all
have confirmation, like, do youhave a project in confirmation
that's tied to that, and like,and that would be amazing if you
did what is?
What are the things that youlimit that project?
And it can be anything.
And so just ways in which, like, little things, like if you're,
if you're, yeah, if you're a DCand you have like a
confirmation, do you?
Do you have like a confirmation?
Do you have a project that'stied to that and like, allow
(36:28):
kids to just have that project,and whatever it is.
I mean I had one youth build apee patch right Like, so it's
like and this is like way beforethe research, which is in
hindsight, looking back on theways in which I didn't say no
and I allowed youth to likeraise up and be like oh, that
sounds crazy, but go for it.
It's just.
It's like, oh my gosh, like nowI, now you, as a DC, you kind
of have like a power base to beable to say this is effective
(36:50):
and it's and it's and it'sreally great.
And so, um, yeah, but I meanthe research, the research, like
as far as, like current things,I mean I mean we, it's, we're,
we're still so fresh that I meanlike and we can look back and
see in hindsight of where thingshave played out, but like as
far as, like, how has your yes,right now worked out?
We're like that's literallywhat we're working on right now.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
Yeah, I love it.
Hey, we're about at time, guys.
I have so many more questions,but I just love your hearts.
This has been fun.
You make some closingstatements that you pray, help
us in the LCMS.
You say we might consider howwe might also measure entrances
and participations built aroundpresence posture.
And yes, let's close withtalking around that.
(37:28):
Jackie, you go first and thenJonathan you'll close us down.
This has been great.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
Yeah, so we are just diving in and trying to figure
out next steps and applicationsand things like that.
And so, reflecting on thatvital behavior question again,
what are the key behaviors thatadults can engage in to help
raise up youth as servantleaders?
Our KBTs, our key behavioralthemes?
(37:54):
We feel like those are.
Without taking too far of ananalytical leap, we feel like
the KBTs are really where thestrength of this research lies,
and so we're now we'reexperimenting with can we come
up with vital behaviors fromthose Um?
And so, as our like, firstminimum viable prototype, we're
(38:15):
throwing out um.
I've called it the no namejournal, cause I'm a DCE and I'm
always a little bit cheesy but,we're.
We're using this, this idea ofknow the person, name the gift,
find the next yes and so, basedon those, on those key behavior
themes like those are actionitems get to know the person,
show up well in their life, comewith this posture of hearing
(38:37):
and listening, be present withthem.
And we've built almost like abullet journal.
It's similar to, you know, likea pastoral care visit record,
that kind of a thing, but rightnow it's all in paper, you know.
So it's your own personal stuff.
It's private.
You can keep track of how youare showing up in your youth's
lives, how you're praying forthem, the events that you're
(38:58):
attending, the ways you'retrying to connect other adults
into their lives.
There's a calendar so you cankeep key dates in their life,
those sorts of things.
And then the next step of thetool is, as you're getting to
know the person and are inprayer about them, we're asking
to develop eyes, you know, bythe power of the Spirit, to see
their giftedness and to juststart naming the things that you
(39:22):
see in that person that youknow maybe they can't see in
themselves.
Jesus was pretty good atlooking at a person and like
Zacchaeus, and calling him sonof Abraham, when that's probably
the thing he felt least like inhis current role, and just this
idea of can we name theGod-given things in their life
that maybe will speak life intothem just by having that named.
(39:44):
And so there's a tool where youcan kind of work through almost
the same way as we did ourqualitative analysis of you know
we see this tag popping overand over again.
We're working up a definitionof what it means as it's being
used throughout people'sresponses.
But you know we're naming thisgift and we're defining what
(40:04):
that means for this person.
And then the next step to thatis well, how do we incorporate
this into the ministries we'realready doing?
Or what do we need to start newand maybe stop something else
to be able to utilize thesethings?
So it's we, our prototypesavailable at our now lcmsorg
slash, yli short for YouthLeadership Initiative, but we're
(40:26):
just kind of running with it tosee if this might be kind of
that lever tool.
Or you know the next step onfinding what those, those vital
behavior levers levers are uhfor equipping adults to, to
train up servant leaders.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
Man.
I'm so glad you're in ourchurch, jackie.
You're brilliant.
Love it, love your heart.
So much fun, jonathan.
What more to add to what Jackiejust said?
Speaker 3 (40:48):
Yeah, I mean just so.
It's every youth, everyministry, gospel responsibility.
And so if we could just that'slike our, that's like our, our,
our motivating factor is that,um, we believe that we can
influence every youth in everyform of ministry, whether it's
camp or church or whatever it isevery ministry, and then they
(41:09):
can all have this gospelresponsibility.
This idea of just you know,like leading up, leading up
people, like there's it's,there's so much freedom in it,
but you can do it because God'scalling you to do it so kind of
hard.
Speaker 2 (41:21):
So, the big aha for me.
Well, there's been a number ofthem, but right there, in what
you shared every person at everyage and stage, like if churches
had intention around, becauseall I heard, I know you, I see
you right and then I see how Godhas gifted you.
So from the ICU to the IC inyou, and then I want to help you
(41:45):
on your next step.
What is your next ministry step?
How does the gospel get livedout in your home, in the
marketplace job that you have,wherever it happens to be,
wherever you have influence?
I want to be about equippingyou for that right next.
Yes, that is a system, that is away of being, and you can
actually put that for those ofthe data, the data folks in our
(42:05):
ministry like you can walk downthat line.
Just a little shout out.
This is exactly what we teachat the ULC, not just with youth,
but exactly with what's yourleadership development pathway
after you start to have theconversation with that person.
So put them on that serve team,put them into leadership in
time, help them to coach othersas their influence grows and
(42:26):
maybe they grow up into the nextgeneration of leaders within
your church as the director ofministry and whatever the role
happens to be.
So there's nothing new aboutthis.
No offense to what you'resaying, it's just I love.
The big thing for me is we'llget super passionate, I think,
across the synod, about who'sgoing to challenge this right.
Who's going to challenge youguys pouring this into the next
(42:49):
generation.
Like there's nothingcontroversial about this.
We should be doing it at everyage and stage.
Anything more to say about thatand how this could be enacted,
even cross-generationally,jonathan.
Speaker 3 (42:59):
I mean just going back to the four-year-old
holding the communion cups,right, like it's little things
that you see, that can be bigthings.
Like you know, like we're notjust like, oh my gosh, we have
this huge, this huge thing.
Now we have to raise all theseleaders, no, like just one, one
youth or one person at a time intheir ministry.
And then the next thing, likeit's, it's like it's okay, it's
like so it's just, you know,it's not like oh my gosh, what,
(43:26):
jackie?
Anything to add.
Speaker 1 (43:28):
Yeah.
So Jonathan and I serve on ateam in our district called the
Encouragers.
Because we're four states, weare partially rostered, we have
a lot of lay leaders doing thesame youth ministry work, and so
we have a team dedicated tokind of trying to be connected
to and helping those leadersfeel like they're not alone in
their ministry.
And so we were like why don'twe just took the word youth off
(43:50):
of all this stuff and use thesame idea in how we as district
leaders try and care for ourother leaders doing it?
So I think that generationalaspect is there and we're
working on developing a database.
The paper tool is to kind oftrain us in the work of having
these eyes and documenting andthings like that.
(44:10):
We're building an onlinedatabase.
It'll still be all anonymous.
You know we're asking you toshare what you're doing with
minors, so there's not going tobe any names or ages connected
with it.
But just to be like this thinkgroup pool of like oh yeah, I
have this kid with this gift.
This is what my ministry lookslike.
How have other people found toinvite and plug them in?
(44:33):
And you know, we're talkingabout a database for youth, but
maybe also one for leaders too,of how we can, just like group
think, this invitation posturein our church body and beyond.
Speaker 2 (44:46):
This is so fun Closing comment here for me, and
then I'll get you guys takenand point people to where they
can be a part of this youthleadership initiative.
So exciting Is skilldevelopment.
There's new neurologicalresearch that's going on right
now that says skill development,gift development, is not about
(45:07):
the 10,000 hours You've heardthis right.
You've got to do 10,000 hoursof a skill to become an expert
in it or even proficient in it.
That's not what the data isshowing.
They're actually showing andthis is so applicable.
This is all secular stuff, butit's so applicable to
discipleship?
No, it's.
I see in you and then I'm goingto give you small bits of
(45:28):
feedback based on that skill.
It's not failure is not fatal,it's not like you're not gifted.
I see this in you.
But we could try this, we couldtry this and the quicker that
iteration of failure and minimalviable product moving it out,
moving it out, testing it,trying it, failing, and then
like growing the muscles forthat respective skill.
That's what leads toproficiency in that respective
(45:50):
skill.
Isn't that fascinating?
Like it's not about the amountof time, like you can, but it's
about humility.
So only the humble learner canreceive from the person who's
advanced.
They're like oh, I get justenough Jesus juice of
encouragement and then I'mgrowing.
Isn't that exactly what Jesusdid with the disciples for the
three years?
Speaker 3 (46:08):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:08):
I'm growing.
Isn't that exactly what Jesusdid with the disciples for the
three years?
Oh yeah, I'm going to let youtry, I'm going to come back.
We're going to like, shape it.
I see the pride that's in youand he started the greatest
movement by the Spirit's powerthe world has ever known, a
movement of humility using theirrespective gifts, and the
Apostle Paul obviously keys intothis in Romans, chapter 12, 1
Corinthians, chapter 12,.
Looking at all these differentgifts, where would you be, apart
(46:33):
from the head and the hands, etcetera?
Right, all unique gifts.
Wouldn't it be amazing?
This sounds like the kingdom.
Wouldn't it be amazing if welooked at one another like that
and said, wow, there's a part ofme that I see in you and I've
grown in proficiency toward thisend.
This is discipleship.
It's not the person that's wayahead.
They're just like one stepahead and they're helping to
like, form, the character, thecontent, the craft of that
person as they grow up into thehead which is Jesus, the Christ.
We need to get away from thisprofessional clergy,
(46:57):
professional church worker class, the people that are on the
stage that do the thing it'shurting our mission and come
down with the people this iswhat Jesus did and come down
into with the people.
This is what Jesus did, and Isit with them, identify their
gifts and help them toward theirnext.
Yes, I just affirm everythingyou're saying, man, it's so,
it's so.
Jesus inspired, holy Spiritinspired.
(47:19):
Praise be to God.
Closing comments Jonathan, andthen I'll let you close it out.
Speaker 3 (47:22):
Oh man, this is like my fourth closing comment.
Speaker 2 (47:25):
I don't know, well, you got one more.
I I don't know, well, you gotone more.
I need to say something else towhat I just said.
Just respond to what I justsaid, jonathan.
Speaker 3 (47:31):
I mean it's absolutely true.
I mean like everything.
Yeah, I mean the cool thingabout this is that it.
I mean, I think, like jokinglyyou know, we started doing
before we did all the researchwe were kind of like reading all
the you know and like the likethe 30,000 foot view step back
is like you, like you said, likeit's, it's not profound, like
(47:53):
this isn't, this isn't aphenomenal insight at all.
And then what?
What our great leader, dust,said, like anything like that,
like literally, when we started,we're like this is what we're
going to find.
We're going to find somethingto be like uh, duh, basically,
but like the cool thing aboutthat is that you have all this
research of knowing like this isthis, is this is this is this
isn't just hindsight, this isjust gas.
Like this is actually things,these are people that are
(48:15):
involved with leaders, they'redoing things, and yeah, and it's
and it's so, it's yeah.
So, yes, it is very, very, verysimple, but it's also research
backed and it's kind of cool tofall back on that.
Speaker 2 (48:25):
Well, simple things need to be executed, and that's
not a simple task.
The execution is not a simplething.
To take that next step inuncharted waters, that's not a
simple thing.
So I love how this tool movesus in that direction.
Jackie, now your third orfourth closing comments and help
people figure out where theycan get connected with your work
, jackie.
Speaker 1 (48:45):
Yeah, well, it's no simple thing, but I think, as
LCMS people, we're wired for it.
We are missional, walkingtogether in Concord people, and
so we have amazing trainingprograms.
If we trust those to trickledown to the people that are on
the ground doing the work, Ijust think, yes, it's going to
(49:09):
be a challenge, yes, there's alot of ask in it, but we're
primed for it.
God is going with us If we keepour eyes on him and follow
where he's leading.
Like we can do this and I, yeah, it's exciting to have the
opportunity to be a part of it.
Speaker 2 (49:22):
So good.
How can people connect?
Speaker 1 (49:31):
Yeah, yeah.
So we are trying to make ournowlcmsorg slash YLI website
kind of our hub for all of this.
You can download the fullreport there, which has
wonderful questions at the end,you know, to help you have eyes,
to look at what you're alreadydoing, small changes you can
make to help it go better.
That will also be the placewhere right now, you can
download kind of the testversion of our no-name journal.
There's a feedback form.
So if you're using it, tell uswhat you love, tell us what you
(49:53):
hate, how we can make it better.
We're going to be launchingthat.
We have a youth and familyministry conference here in the
district in May and we're goingto pilot that out to all of our
leaders there.
Speaker 3 (50:02):
Anyone can join us too, it's great.
Speaker 1 (50:05):
Yeah, we're going to Leavenworth, washington, which
is a wonderful place if youhaven't been there, and it's
just a time to connect and berecharged.
Chad the keys with LutheranHour Ministries is going to be
our speaker this year.
It's always a fun time, butwe're the now LCMS district
because there's also NorthWisconsin, so they're an NW we
are NOW.
(50:25):
So if you're trying to find ourwebsite, n-o-w lcmsorg slash
YLI, that's our hub.
We also have ayouthandfamilyatnowlcmsorg email
address that I monitor and canshare with Jonathan and Dust, so
that's the best place if youwant to shoot us an email.
Yeah, we would love for peopleto have this stuff in their
(50:48):
hands and test it and let usknow how well it works for them
so we can keep working towardthe best thing to equip our
leaders with.
Speaker 2 (50:56):
And this has been so inspiring, grateful for you both
.
This is the Tim Allman podcast.
Please like, subscribe, comment.
Wherever it is you take inthese conversations, I don't
know how anybody could listen tothis and say you know what?
I'm not a fan of that.
That doesn't sound good Like.
No, let's get grumpy Lutheran.
Let's find the joy of Jesusespecially and unite as the
people of God in the LCMS toraise up the next generation of
(51:19):
leaders, to see them, to seetheir gifts and to work toward
the strategic yes based on thosegifts.
It's a beautiful thing topartner with you both.
You're a gift to the body ofChrist and to me and to everyone
who listened today.
We'll be back next week withanother episode of the Tim
Allman Podcast.
It's a good day.
Go make it a great day.
Thanks so much, jackie.
Thanks, jonathan.
Speaker 3 (51:39):
Thank you Tim.
It's not that every youth has to do everything or
any particular thing.
It's that there is something todo for every youth, something
that they can be invited in.
So I just think there's so muchfreedom in that because,
regardless of you know urban orrural size of your church, your
worship practice, you know oursynods, on a spectrum with our
(00:23):
regions, you regions, our width,our breadth, all of those
things, and the good news inthis is that it can be applied
anywhere, because it's aboutopening a door.
The door doesn't matter so muchthe characteristics of the door
, but if you can train yourselfto have eyes, to see the
God-given gifts in your youthand to look for doors to open,
(00:45):
to invite them further up andfurther in, to say yes to the
things that are on their heartsand bring them into your
ministry, that is where thissurvey showed the success.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Welcome to the Tim Allman Podcast.
It's a beautiful day to bealive.
Pray, the joy of Jesus is yourstrength, as today I get to hang
out with two servant leaders inthe Lutheran Church Missouri
Synod who have poured their lifeinto the next generation.
If there's one thing I couldcharge for you as a pastor, as a
leader, as a lay leader, carefor love, challenge, pray for
(01:23):
those who are being raised rightnow in these, as many people
say, these unprecedented times.
So much societal change and wehave to cast vision for our
young people being present-dayleaders and the future-day
leaders within the church forthe advancement of the kingdom
of God.
Let me introduce you to myguests.
Jonathan and Jackie are DCEsserving congregations in the
(01:44):
Northwest District of thekingdom of God.
Let me introduce you to myguests.
Jonathan and Jackie are DCEsserving congregations in the
Northwest District of the LCMS.
So it's Jackie Druckhammer andJonathan Capecchi.
Since becoming a Christian at17 years old, jonathan has had a
heart for people who don't knowJesus.
That is very, very true.
In addition to serving as ayouth minister at Hope in
Seattle, he has also coordinatedthe launch of the Youth
Leadership Initiative Survey,which is what we're going to be
(02:06):
talking about today invitingchurch leaders in the Northwest
District and beyond to reflecton the formative experiences
that help draw young people intoleadership.
Jonathan has most recently beenaccepted into the CMC program.
He's right at the very front ofthat.
The Cross-Cultural Ministry.
Church Formation I alwaysforget what it stands for.
I taught in it for like eightyears, or whatever.
But cross-cultural work.
Church formation I alwaysforget what it stands for.
(02:26):
I taught in it for like eightyears, or whatever.
But cross-cultural work.
Praise be to God.
He's serving now as a vicar.
Jackie serves part-time as achildren's minister at her home
congregation in St John inVancouver, washington.
What a beautiful part of theworld.
Both of your locations areextraordinary, god said.
I'm going to put a little bitmore beauty in this area of my
creation.
Where she was first introducedto DCE ministry Director of
(02:49):
Christian Education Ministry.
Over the years, jackie andJonathan have volunteered in the
Northwest District programs andevents to help connect, equip
and encourage our leaders.
They are excited to be a partof this project we're going to
talk about today, which focuseson encouraging youth to use
their God given gifts as leadersin his, in his, kingdom.
How are you guys doing today?
Jackie, you loving life, sister.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Amen, yeah, what's giving you?
Speaker 2 (03:12):
the most joy right now.
Let's start out with that.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Oh, I have a three, almost four year old and he's
like on the cusp of reading, buthe has a good memory.
So we're trying to figure outwhat he's just remembering
versus what he's figuring out onhis own, and it's just a joy to
see the world kind of beingdiscovered again a new through
the eyes of a toddler.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
So I mean that three year old year in child
development.
My daughter is in in earlychildhood.
She's taking classes, want tobe an early childhood, you know,
teacher, maybe director downthe line.
But she's like Dad, you know,like two to three years old is
when they start to like learnhow to share and like be a human
that cares about other humansand stuff.
So he, he's right in there andit sounds like he's developing
(03:53):
well.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Yes, Before I left to come do this, he handed me a
little Jesus tag to remind methat you know Jesus is with me
while I go podcast.
So, yes, the learning isamazing.
I love it.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Future leader in the church.
So good, Our current leaderpoint us.
It's cool.
Through the eyes of little kidsthey point us to what is most
important and that is thepresence of Jesus.
Welcome, little children.
Jonathan.
What's given you the most joy,brother?
Good to hang out with you, man.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Oh man, yeah, it's great to be here.
Thank you so much for having us.
I think, man, like what is themost joy right now?
I think just the Lord likepushing me in ways that I just
(04:40):
did not know that it could bepossible, in good and bad and
challenging, and in just fun.
Yeah, I mean, yeah, I couldspend a long time.
I can't really like narrow onething down because I've had so
much challenge and so much likejoy right now, especially like
last 10 weeks, but it's been.
It's been phenomenal and I canhang out with you.
So this is this has been my joyright now, for the last week is
like preparing for this.
I love it.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
We're going to have a great time.
Jonathan's wife, amy, and I goback to.
I knew Amy when we were gosh 10, well, 13, 14, 15, 16, writing
that and then college was a partof praise at Concordia
University in Nebraska.
I think it's still going on onWednesday nights.
She's an amazingsinger-songwriter with you, as
(05:22):
well as an author copywriter.
If you don't know Amy Kopecky,she was a part of and I just
found this out of the story.
This is the chronological,continuous story of all 66 books
put into one book, one readablebook which you should read the
Bible.
But the story is a pretty greatrepresentation of the entire
narrative arc of scripture and Ididn't even know that Amy was a
part of that some 13, 14 yearsago.
(05:42):
She's kind of a big deal,jonathan.
You married up, bro.
I really did, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
Yeah so good, oh man, yeah, it's awesome.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Tell me what you're learning in CMC.
What's hot right now?
Speaker 3 (05:54):
Man, I mean, I think just the my hermeneutics class
is just mind blowing right now.
It's just like being able toopen up the Bible and look at
word studies from the OldTestament to the New Testament
is is something that has justbeen really, really amazing.
And yeah, shout out toProfessor Eshelbach because he's
phenomenal, but yeah, it's.
Yeah, I mean it's just it'sopening up a new world and I'm
(06:15):
really stepping into it andtrying to follow Jesus in it.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
For sure, isn, I'm really stepping into it and
trying to follow Jesus in it.
For sure Isn't it cool Likeyou've been in the church
leadership for a long time,right yeah, since I was six.
Yeah, there's always more tolearn.
I did a podcast with JimMarriott, a classmate of mine
from Concordia, nebraska, and hetold me something about the
Kyrie.
Lord, have mercy on us.
Lord, have mercy on us.
It was a cry for the Jews, forGod's mercy, not just for them
(06:49):
but for the nations.
So there was like a missionalcomponent to even the Kyrie that
we sing in our liturgicaltraditional services.
I mean, how bonkers is that?
So all that to say, there'sgold in them, their heels, and
that gold does not run out,jonathan.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
It doesn't, yeah, it's's, it's, yeah, it's insane.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Yeah, always more.
So let's get into it.
Tell us about the servantleadership survey you conducted
in 2022.
What was the aim and focus?
We'll start with you, though,jonathan, and then Jackie, you
can fill in the gaps.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
Yeah, I mean the focus, I mean it was, I mean,
crucial influence is a hugeshout out.
So I mean we, we read that book, we were.
We found out that like therecould be a vital behavior for
something that maybe that couldpotentially create leaders, and
and maybe there's a vitalbehavior that we're missing.
Jackie can speak like volumesto like the examples in the book
about you know just ways inwhich they actually created
(07:35):
vital, vital behaviors, but wereally wanted to take that and
try to say if there was like wewould just ask people and what
was the way that you guys likewere influenced by leaders?
Like you know, you have a stronglike we started with leaders,
like adult leaders in DCEs, etcetera, and like what was like
what was impactful for you, andjust general idea and questions
(07:56):
of maybe that could be it, andthen we formalized those into a
survey.
We got 64, I think, responses,and then we pushed forward and
we had a small group that did it, and then we launched it, and
then we were like, okay, how arewe going to do this?
And we compiled it all and,yeah, that's kind of our heart.
Behind it, though, is that wewanted to find if there was
(08:16):
possible to find something thatcould absolutely transform or
huge pivot is basically what avital behavior is is to
completely pivot that influence.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
That's so good, Jackie.
Go deeper in terms of vitalbehaviors.
What does that mean?
That's actually a newer termfor me as well.
I've talked about behaviors.
I've done the HarrisonBehavioral Assessment, but
honing in on vital behaviors,that's a combination of words I
don't normally hear very often.
Would you talk about that,Jackie?
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Yeah.
So we love the HarrisonAssessment because of all of the
profiles out there that canhelp you understand you better.
We talk about that one as beingcoachable.
It's behavior-based, it's notinnate what you were born with,
stuff you're stuck with can'tchange.
It's all coachable.
You can improve on things, youcan lean into your strengths,
(09:04):
all of that.
And so there's been a ton ofresearch across our synod and
Christianity even just sociologyin general about youth and
faith and retention and thingslike that.
But a lot of it ischaracteristic based or things
like that.
Even the first survey that wewere building off of found tags
(09:26):
under like attitudes, skills,abilities, gifts and all those
are important to document.
But it was that behaviordistinction that we really
wanted to lean into because itis coachable.
It's stuff that anybody can do,anybody can be trained in,
anyone can practice, can getbetter at, and so vital behavior
the Crucial Influence bookdefines it as a new behavior
(09:49):
that disproportionately affectsthe results you want to achieve.
So one of the easy examples inthe book was they were trying to
.
The easy examples in the bookwas they were trying to
eradicate a disease in thirdworld countries and they
identified a positive deviant,which is one of my new favorite
terms.
They're like which communityisn't having this problem as
(10:11):
much In a positive way.
They are deviating from thenorm and they found that it was
a water-based illness.
That it was a water-basedillness and they found that in
that population the simplebehavior was that they were
filtering their water beforethey consumed it and that was
creating this.
You know, the vital behavior wasstraining the water and it was
(10:36):
creating this very positivedeviation in that community of
their infection rates were waylower.
So they introduced this vitalbehavior of take two water jugs
with you when you go get waterand that simple behavior makes
it so much easier to strain yourwater, eradicate the illness
and it, you know itdisproportionately affected the
results of freeing those peoplefrom this illness.
A really simple behavior changejust take a second water jug
(10:58):
with you when you go get yourwater.
But the results were incrediblein bringing healing to that
community.
So those were the kind ofthings we were looking before.
Are there almost like thesepivot lever points of if we do
these simple thingsintentionally and you know, for
good reason, regularly all ofthose things, and you know, for
good reason, regularly all ofthose things can we
(11:21):
disproportionately affect theway young people are growing as
servant leaders.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
I want to be a positive deviant.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
That's my new life goal.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
You guys are both positive deviants too.
You're bringing some growth andchallenge to the church.
That's so good.
So tell me about some of thepositive deviant work.
Or let's get deeper intobehaviors, and I love behaviors.
Coachability, et cetera makes alot of sense.
Behaviors can and should changeover time.
We're not talking about skills,abilities, the innate kind of
(11:55):
gifts.
No, this is the heart andcharacter of Christ that can
grow in us and that's why I lovethe Harrison, taking it every
two to three years because youcan see over a long period of
time.
You know, I used to one of myfavorite indicators.
I used to struggle withmanaging stress.
Well, that's one of my favoritebecause the flip indicator from
dynamic to passive behavioraltraits, and now I've grown in
(12:17):
terms of, maybe I have somehabits of wellness, self-care,
and now things that used totrigger me no longer do at least
to the level that they once did.
Would you speak to some ofthose behavioral changes that
disproportionately affect growthin young people?
What are we talking about here,jonathan?
Speaker 3 (12:38):
I think the coolest one that we've seen so far is
the ability of showing up andwhat that looks like.
That one, along with hearing andlistening, were by far the two
that just stood out immensely,and what that means and what
revealed through the research isthat that person can just show
(13:00):
up and it like literally justshow up.
I mean it's that simple and,like what Jackie says, vital
behavior is something that islike disproportionately,
something that just absolutelytransformed something in a huge,
pivotal way where you just likeit's that little thing and it's
not about.
It's not about I mean, it'sabout character, but it's not
about like you know, you have tobe this cool youth pastor or
whatever.
Like it's not about that at all.
(13:21):
It's about your heart and beingable to show up and yeah, I
mean literally just being there.
And one thing of the surveythat we saw is that it's not
about like no one reallyremembered what anybody said.
They just remembered that theywere there and so that was like
just huge for us, or yeah, forus just to be able to see that.
(13:41):
It was just the idea of showingup.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Humans are so funny, aren't we?
Because it's totally true.
And it's kind of depressing atthe very same time.
It's like no one's going toremember, like how hard I worked
to put together that wellarticulated message, and like
the hook that landed at just theright time.
Like, yeah, no one really cares.
Bro.
Now I could challenge thatlovingly, because people did
(14:05):
care, and write down the wordsof Jesus like words actually
matter.
But words are used because whatis most of human interaction
it's nonverbal or it'spre-verbal, like I'm here for
you, I'm open to you, I'mcurious about you, I'm going to
follow up.
I'm here for you, I'm open toyou, I'm curious about you, I'm
going to follow up, I'm going toask questions about you and
(14:27):
then I'm going to deeply listen.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
I'm, I'm here for you .
Anything more to say about that, jackie?
Well, so that's actually kindof a process that emerged
through our research.
We were building off of aprevious study in our district
that identified a lot ofcharacteristics and attributes
of leaders a lot ofcharacteristics and attributes
of leaders and we launched ourprevious district president
launched this initiative with anICNU toolkit.
So, knowing what our peoplelook for and are blessed by in
(14:53):
servant leaders, the idea wasthat we would look for those
things in the next generationand name them and invite them
into an equipping process tomove into leadership more.
So we had this I see in youmentality that we were working
toward of looking for giftednessand things like that, and we
(15:14):
certainly saw that in ourresearch too.
But we had this other layer andwe ended up calling it I see you
so, before your giftedness,your ability, what you bring to
the table, just the fact thatGod created you to be you, and I
see you as God's beloved child,for who you are, regardless of
anything that comes after.
(15:34):
That was a really a really coolthing that we saw come through
the data too, like, yes, this isabout the giftedness God has
given you for carrying out Hiswork in the kingdom, but before
that, and not as a steppingstone to it or anything like
that, but just first andforemost, who you are as God's
beloved person and beingsomebody that cares about that
person and wants to get to knowthat person and help you know
(15:58):
that you are loved and valuable.
To get to know that person andhelp you know that you are loved
and valuable and that, yes, too, god has gifted you to help be
a part of his mission in theworld.
But even before any of that,you were still his beloved child
.
Before you bring anything tothe table.
It was really neat to see thatcome through so strongly in the
research, Because, you know wetalk about in the paper a lot of
(16:19):
this fits with our gutinstincts, but the fact that the
data corroborates it and really, you know, just supports those
things that we've felt aspractitioners for so long, that
was really neat to see, and itso aligns with our gospel
understanding as Lutherans too.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
Yeah, absolutely so.
How is ICU?
That's such a great handle.
Before I seen you, I see you.
How is that connected tohearing and listening?
You kind of differentiatedthose behaviors, Jackie.
Would you take us into that?
Speaker 1 (16:54):
Yeah, let's see, we added these kind of extra
taglines to hearing andlistening and to showing up of
of presence and posture.
And so, for hearing andlistening, it's just this
posture of a nonjudgmental, openspace where a youth can come to
(17:16):
you, uh, with anything, knowingyou're a safe space.
As a toddler mom right now,I've heard people talk about
when my kid does something wrong, which inevitably it's going to
happen.
I hope that their first thoughtisn't like, oh, my mom's going
to kill me, but I can't wait togo to my mom and get help with
(17:36):
this.
That kind of open posture likeI am here to hear and listen to
whatever you have to say, likewe are in this.
Together we'll figure it out.
I'm here for you, I'm a supportto you.
That, that that posture ofcoming to the relationship,
ready to hear, ready to listen,whether it's a good circumstance
or a challenging one.
And I think to be that personthat can do that work, you have
(18:03):
to have invested in the IC, inyou a little bit more and you
know really it needs to be anauthentic relationship.
It's not for the sake of workand I plug you in as a volunteer
in my ministry but just thatfirst foundational work of I
(18:23):
want to be a person in your lifethat is a safe place to listen
to you, to hear what you have tosay, because I've invested the
work in getting to know you as aperson before anything else.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
This is like hot on my mind just because I'm reading
this right now.
But like when Jesus visits thewoman at the well, the disciples
come back and they're likeshocked, like they're like
marvel, like what are you doing,talking this woman?
And like I see you would belike Jesus didn't see.
Like Jesus saw the woman andbut saw, like you know, saw it,
like saw her, not just like that, the fact that she's a woman
you're not supposed to talk to awoman and she's a Samaritan and
(18:55):
below from you know all the,all the but like Jesus saw her
and the disciples saw her as awoman, being like, oh my gosh,
what are you doing?
And like that's kind of likethe idea is that you like you
see the person not just assomeone who can fulfill a
volunteer role, but like you see, you see them and it's, it's
pretty huge.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Well, that's so good.
Jesus is no respecter ofpersons, right?
Like there's nothing aboutJesus that it's like wow, that
guy, he's amazing, or she's, orthat guy, that guy's a train
wreck, you know, he sees likeeverything about us and the
audacity of the gospel is thathe loves all of us.
(19:34):
He draws all of us, the good,the bad, the ugly, all of it.
He knows us completely, heknows us better than we know
ourselves and yet he welcomes usin us, personally, individually
and collectively, as his church, broken and battered by our sin
in the world and Satan as weare, he welcomes us all into his
, into his family.
Like that should changeradically the way we care for I
(19:59):
interacted with a brother whowrote, who wrote a book called
Becoming the Gospel, michaelGorman, and he talks about the
new identity that we have as afollower of Jesus.
And this is as Lutherans, wetalk about this in the two kinds
of righteousness, right, I meanwhat flows from Jesus passive
faith and gets actively livedout in love for neighbor.
(20:21):
That can sound so kind of triteand I just kind of.
I've been indoctrinated intothis sort of way of viewing the
scriptures, which is a very,very helpful thing, but it must
move out in love and care foreveryone, for in youth ministry,
for the jock that loves sportsand for the and I don't like
(20:42):
these labels, but those who area little more heady into school
and everywhere, the artisan andeverywhere in between all these
labels they get kind of.
I have this vision that ouryouth ministry would be a place
Cause I experienced this withyour, with your wife there, amy
I mean my youth experience was aplace where all types of kids
could come and were welcome, andnot only that, they invited
(21:04):
their friends.
Like.
I want that here at ChristGreenfield more, and we're
working toward it for sure.
But there's we've kind ofbifurcated into these and I
think social media has nothelped a whole lot, right that
well, I don't know.
This is a youth group for thiskind of kid or for this kind of
kid or for this kind of kid, andso maybe I'm going down a
little bit of a rabbit hole here, but I think it's a good one.
(21:24):
What?
does it look like for our youthministry to be a place where
every kid is welcomed and canbelong.
Jonathan, and then Jackson.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
Well, what you're talking about right now is what
we saw in the research calledfurther up and further in, or
further in and further up, sorryIs.
Or furthering in, further up,sorry is.
That idea is that like, soyou're welcomed.
And then what is the next step?
So it's not just like you, justdon't stop there.
And so, like our example was,is that, you know, like
communion, you know, so there'sa church that has a
(21:50):
four-year-old, instead of justputting the communion on a bag,
like the communion, you know, ifyou're doing like you know,
walk by and you're doing yourthing and you drop the communion
cup into a basket and you moveon right, instead of just having
that be on a table, theyactually have a four-year-old
that holds it.
You know, like just something,that's like something silly,
like that.
But like that, is this idea like, I see you right that you can
actually, you can actually servethe Lord in a way of capacity
(22:12):
of just holding the community.
Like, basically, it's the, it'sthe rubbish, like cause it's
going to be, it's going to berecycled, but it's like it's.
It's like you get a smilingface on a kid.
The kid's like I'm, I'm doingthis is amazing, and then so
that's like, that's one way,like I see you that you can help
.
And then, and then I, and thenthe next step is like okay, now
that that four-year-old it'sjust, it's like when you really
(22:33):
step back and look at what couldwe do so for youth group, for
anything, for I mean like justthe intergenerational church,
like what are people doing rightnow?
But what are we calling them to?
The next thing and that's, Imean that's leadership and it's
amazing and yeah, it's just,it's phenomenal, so that, yeah,
(22:55):
so what you're talking aboutactually does relate exactly to
what our research is showing,with further in and further up.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
Jackie, do you want to say anything about that?
Well, no, just in exactly thesame vein, what was really
exciting was that none of thisshowed it had to be a particular
kind of program in a particularkind of setting, in a certain
demographic of church or youthgroup.
And the other thread we broughtout of it was it's not that
(23:27):
every youth has to do everythingor any particular thing, it's
that there is something to dofor every youth, something that
they can be invited in.
So I just think there's so muchfreedom in that because,
regardless of urban or ruralsize of your church, your
worship practice, our Synod's,on a spectrum with our regions,
(23:51):
our width, our breadth, all ofthose things.
And the good news in this isthat it can be applied anywhere,
because it's about opening adoor.
The door doesn't matter so muchthe characteristics of the door
, but if you can train yourselfto have eyes to see the
God-given gifts in your youthand to look for doors to open,
(24:12):
to invite them further up andfurther in, to say yes to the
things that are on their heartsand bring them into your
ministry, that is where thissurvey showed the success.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
So good?
Were you surprised, either ofyou, that certain behaviors
didn't show up as like thepositive deviance that you were
expecting?
Any, any surprises or ahas,jackie, we'll start with you.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
That's a good question.
Our survey was very anonymous,intentionally, so I don't know
that we could have seen some ofthat, like this says, as people
rooted in this district.
Pretty well, like we have names,we have leaders, we know and we
saw a few of those pops few ofthose pop, but we've had some
(24:57):
intentional programs over theyear and those weren't
necessarily named by name but wedon't know if they were here,
but we don't see them explicitlynamed, if that makes sense,
because we don't know theparticular response with the
person and we can guess thatthey're alluding to this
situation and things like that.
So I wouldn't say there wasanything that we were shocked
(25:19):
wasn't present on the whole.
It just really aligned with ourour feelings about our own
experience in working with youth, feelings about our own
experience in working with youth, and I think it was anonymous
and generic enough that itreally had this universal kind
of quality that I don't know ifit was the intentionality of how
(25:40):
the survey was conducted or italways would have been this way,
but it really did feelgenerally applicable, not rooted
to the particular instances ofour people and programs here.
That makes sense.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Yeah, Jonathan, anything.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
Yeah, I mean, I think the coolest thing that came out
that I was shocked by but I wasalso just incredibly thrilled
when it started to reveal itselfis the idea that it can be
anybody.
Is the idea that it can beanybody Like?
We just have this idea that youhave to be in order to like,
influence youth.
You have to be this cool personwho's hip, who knows language,
who's on Snap, blah, blah, blah.
All this stuff Turns out youjust have to love youth, and I'm
(26:21):
all about like my heart in theCMC program is developing a
youth culture that'scross-cultural and like building
youth culture and how this tiesinto this is just absolutely
just phenomenal.
And so that's what I love isthat, like anyone, no matter the
size of your youth group, nomatter the size of your church,
no matter how like you know,like if a pastor is like well,
here's our youth leaders, belike, guess what they can create
influence, they can do it.
(26:42):
It doesn't matter.
Like they're like they don'thave any tattoos, that doesn't
matter.
Like it's like, get like, it'sfine.
The coolest thing is that it'sall about like your heart and
just wanting to do these thingsto see youth to show up, to be
involved in their life and thenjust walk with them and then,
when they come to be like I havea problem or whatever it is, be
like that's okay, we're hereand we can handle it and that's
(27:04):
and that's creating the culture.
And yeah, I mean, when I sawthat that was slowly revealing
itself, I was like Dustin,jackie, are you seeing this?
This is so cool, and I don'tknow, it was just, that was just
.
A highlight of mine is beinglike anyone can do this, and
that's the gospel too.
It's like anyone can do it.
(27:24):
So it's I don't know.
I loved when that started toreveal itself.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
Oh, I don't know.
I love, I love when thatstarted to reveal itself.
Oh, I love that too.
So are you seeing some storiesof?
Maybe older adults maybe thinkof?
Speaker 3 (27:38):
people in there.
Well, I'm, I'm, I'm puttingmyself in an age like in the
forties.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
You know, yeah, I know it's not, but forties or
fifties of folks that are sayingyou know what I really want to
go down and they're having animpact.
I get to coach right.
I think that's one of myfavorite ways.
I get to be around, kind ofshoulder to shoulder, with a
number of young men 70 young menfor an intense period of time
for five or six months out ofthe year.
So are you seeing someinfluence?
(28:01):
Like, I think, the stereotype.
Just to bust the stereotype isit's got to be the 25 year old,
it's got to be the guy, he's gottattoos, so you know he has a
past and all this kind of stuff,so you can relate.
Bust some of those misnomers ofthe who gets to pour into kids,
jonathan, and then we'll go toJackie.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
Well, I mean, even in my story, upbringing, I mean,
one of the biggest influenceswas Kurt, and this guy was a
massive dude who worked for aChristian bookstore back in the
day, because they actually werethere, and he would give me a CD
.
And when I started, when mybuddy was dragging me to church,
et cetera, blah, blah, blah, hewould give me a CD almost every
Sunday and I'd be like man, Ihave all these Christian CDs,
(28:38):
I'm not going to listen to themor whatever.
And then he would bring me alike, like, if he only knew what
I did like yet last night hewould be like get out of here,
and he and he never was.
And so, and this guy I meanthis guy was 65 when I was, you
(29:05):
know, I was 15 and he just Idon't know, and generation can
actually yeah, I mean can reallyhave an influence.
And it wasn't that he wasn'tcool, but he just he loved, he
loved well, and he showed up.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
Jackie.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
Yeah, I the in the data.
This project, in its scope,didn't necessarily look for
those things, but, as as we'vebeen talking about it and people
have asked us these kind ofquestions, we've done what we
can to pull things and, like theprofessional church worker
versus lay leader, the maleversus female, the aged adult
(29:41):
versus the you know slightlyolder than me, peer, they're
pretty down the line divisions.
There's no clear majoritywinner in those kind of
categories.
We're working within a limiteddatabase because that wasn't a
question we asked or we weretrying to answer in how we asked
demographic categories of youknow, this was the most
influential person and my ownexperience too.
(30:14):
I grew up at a church that hadDCE interns.
We were a training site forthem.
So, you know, I had a cool,young, hip DCE student every
year, a new one that I got toknow.
But other very influentialpeople are with the Lord already
, or many of them are snowbirdsthat attend your church down um
uh for part of the year, and soyou know the age range and, uh,
(30:36):
demographic range in my ownexperience of people that poured
into me.
It, you know it affirms what wesaw in the data too.
Just yeah, there doesn't seemto be a limiter to the person
that can show up well for you.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
So good, hey, let's talk about the power of yes.
This is one, as I was lookingthrough all of your data the
power of yes for the servantleader as a balance between
fully encouraging and fullychallenging.
That is the line for theparents and for the.
Is that walk in that line,encouraging, but also the
appropriate amount of challengeand the power of yes in that
journey.
(31:12):
Jackie, you want to kick us offthere and then we'll go to
Jonathan.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
This was a super important one to me.
At the beginning of the reportwe referenced the Set Apart to
Serve initiative by the LCMS, aswell as the seven
characteristics of highlyeffective youth leadership.
I'm botching the title of that,but the LCMS Youth Ministry
Office Research and I had theopportunity to hear a report on
(31:37):
that from the Youth MinistryOffice, and so for a long time I
was like are we just trying torecreate the data that they
already published?
But they put out that acongregation should be a place
of.
I think it's warmth,encouragement and challenge,
which very much fits with how wedefine.
(31:57):
Yes, but with ourbehavior-based focus.
If you ask the question, how doyou become a congregation that
is warm, challenging andencouraging, you start saying
yes.
I think that's the next stepand what was so exciting about
this project for me.
And you know, we have the, we'vebeen trained for this, we know
(32:18):
our legal limits, we knowsecurity policies, we know you
know safety and all of that isso important.
We're not meaning to dismissany of that.
But what if we changed ourapproach to ministry when an
idea was brought to us, ratherthan thinking of the reasons why
it might not work?
It might be hard.
It's not what we're focused on.
(32:39):
You know all of the morenegatively connotated reasons to
not do something.
What if we changed our approachto be like, well, huh, what
would it take to make thathappen?
Or what would be good in this?
Or you know just that that flipin how we approach the things
that are already exciting ourkids, and if they're not excited
yet, how do we come up withideas that we invite them to say
(33:02):
yes to too?
So yeah, just that.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
Can you give, jackie?
Can you give?
I love actionable change.
Can you give an example?
Because for some of us you'vebeen a pastor for a while or you
know you just haven't beenaround youth ministry.
Give me an example of a kid whocame up to you with an idea
like wow, okay, we'll give it ashot, and it actually turned out
.
You had to maybe modify it atouch, but it actually turned
out to be a really great idea.
Can you give an example to be areally great idea?
(33:26):
Can you give an example?
And then I'd love to go to you,jonathan, Some great stories
here.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
For a while I was that kid in youth group For our
confirmation program.
We used faith incubators, whichhas a lot of artistic and
creative freedom in it, and soevery week in planning how we
would teach confirmation thenext week, we'd be like could we
bring airsoft guns and make astandoff in the church parking
(33:50):
lot and use that as theintroduction to confession and
absolution?
And our DCEU was like well, letme check our insurance policy
and we'll see what we get.
But we got to do stuff likethat and it really being able to
think through creative ways toget to teach catechismal
concepts made me love the workmore than anything, I think.
(34:10):
And I had a youth in my youthgroup in Spokane that heard
about it's now Youth Lead, butthe Lutheran Youth Fellowship
Initiative, and I forget theconnection of how he heard about
it.
But he's like could we fly toSt Louis for that training?
I was like I don't see, why not?
Like you know, let's look intoit.
And we talked to our leadershipand they we were at a season
(34:32):
where we had graduated nine highschoolers the year before, so
our youth group was much smallerfor that season and they're
like sure, you can use more ofyour budget.
You know a higher amount peryouth, like in this season.
That's fine.
So we went to St Louis and heended up.
We, we had an injury at campthe next summer.
One of our youth leaders torehis Achilles and so I was
(34:54):
driving him to the emergencyroom and that youth was like
Jackie, I got this, like I'vegot the kids, you go.
And it was just this amazingmoment.
And you know, we, we don't doit perfectly.
There's nothing to say that hecouldn't have done that without
having gone to St Louis.
We don't do it perfectly.
There's nothing to say that hecouldn't have done that without
having gone to St Louis.
But just it was really neat tohave that opportunity to pour
into an idea of his and to seehim get excited to use his gifts
(35:16):
down the line.
So cool.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
Jonathan, any stories and or your thoughts on the
power of yes and encouraging andchallenging and walking that
kind of middle road?
Speaker 3 (35:24):
Yeah, I mean, when this came out, I was just
insanely excited because I thinkI am that person and I think
Dustin Jackie can, can, canvalidate that as being like, can
we do this, can we do this, canwe do this?
Almost to the point of beingannoying.
But but yeah, I mean just if,if you can develop a culture
that you don't, your, yourimmediate reaction isn't to say
(35:45):
no, I mean just, I mean evenlike current, you know, like
there's um a student in my youthgroup who's who just started
Christian club in her highschool.
Um, that wasn't like a directinfluence of me, but I think it
was.
You know just the, the cultureof like you can do this, you can
do this, you can do this, andthen, and then yeah, and then
stepping in and and then, yeah,creating a club, or I mean even
(36:08):
even things like, as far as like, like confirmation, like we all
have confirmation, like, do youhave a project in confirmation
that's tied to that, and like,and that would be amazing if you
did what is?
What are the things that youlimit that project?
And it can be anything.
And so just ways in which, like, little things, like if you're,
if you're, yeah, if you're a DCand you have like a
confirmation, do you?
Do you have like a confirmation?
Do you have a project that'stied to that and like, allow
(36:28):
kids to just have that project,and whatever it is.
I mean I had one youth build apee patch right Like, so it's
like and this is like way beforethe research, which is in
hindsight, looking back on theways in which I didn't say no
and I allowed youth to likeraise up and be like oh, that
sounds crazy, but go for it.
It's just.
It's like, oh my gosh, like nowI, now you, as a DC, you kind
of have like a power base to beable to say this is effective
(36:50):
and it's and it's and it'sreally great.
And so, um, yeah, but I meanthe research, the research, like
as far as, like current things,I mean I mean we, it's, we're,
we're still so fresh that I meanlike and we can look back and
see in hindsight of where thingshave played out, but like as
far as, like, how has your yes,right now worked out?
We're like that's literallywhat we're working on right now.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
Yeah, I love it.
Hey, we're about at time, guys.
I have so many more questions,but I just love your hearts.
This has been fun.
You make some closingstatements that you pray, help
us in the LCMS.
You say we might consider howwe might also measure entrances
and participations built aroundpresence posture.
And yes, let's close withtalking around that.
(37:28):
Jackie, you go first and thenJonathan you'll close us down.
This has been great.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
Yeah, so we are just diving in and trying to figure
out next steps and applicationsand things like that.
And so, reflecting on thatvital behavior question again,
what are the key behaviors thatadults can engage in to help
raise up youth as servantleaders?
Our KBTs, our key behavioralthemes?
(37:54):
We feel like those are.
Without taking too far of ananalytical leap, we feel like
the KBTs are really where thestrength of this research lies,
and so we're now we'reexperimenting with can we come
up with vital behaviors fromthose Um?
And so, as our like, firstminimum viable prototype, we're
(38:15):
throwing out um.
I've called it the no namejournal, cause I'm a DCE and I'm
always a little bit cheesy but,we're.
We're using this, this idea ofknow the person, name the gift,
find the next yes and so, basedon those, on those key behavior
themes like those are actionitems get to know the person,
show up well in their life, comewith this posture of hearing
(38:37):
and listening, be present withthem.
And we've built almost like abullet journal.
It's similar to, you know, likea pastoral care visit record,
that kind of a thing, but rightnow it's all in paper, you know.
So it's your own personal stuff.
It's private.
You can keep track of how youare showing up in your youth's
lives, how you're praying forthem, the events that you're
(38:58):
attending, the ways you'retrying to connect other adults
into their lives.
There's a calendar so you cankeep key dates in their life,
those sorts of things.
And then the next step of thetool is, as you're getting to
know the person and are inprayer about them, we're asking
to develop eyes, you know, bythe power of the Spirit, to see
their giftedness and to juststart naming the things that you
(39:22):
see in that person that youknow maybe they can't see in
themselves.
Jesus was pretty good atlooking at a person and like
Zacchaeus, and calling him sonof Abraham, when that's probably
the thing he felt least like inhis current role, and just this
idea of can we name theGod-given things in their life
that maybe will speak life intothem just by having that named.
(39:44):
And so there's a tool where youcan kind of work through almost
the same way as we did ourqualitative analysis of you know
we see this tag popping overand over again.
We're working up a definitionof what it means as it's being
used throughout people'sresponses.
But you know we're naming thisgift and we're defining what
(40:04):
that means for this person.
And then the next step to thatis well, how do we incorporate
this into the ministries we'realready doing?
Or what do we need to start newand maybe stop something else
to be able to utilize thesethings?
So it's we, our prototypesavailable at our now lcmsorg
slash, yli short for YouthLeadership Initiative, but we're
(40:26):
just kind of running with it tosee if this might be kind of
that lever tool.
Or you know the next step onfinding what those, those vital
behavior levers levers are uhfor equipping adults to, to
train up servant leaders.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
Man.
I'm so glad you're in ourchurch, jackie.
You're brilliant.
Love it, love your heart.
So much fun, jonathan.
What more to add to what Jackiejust said?
Speaker 3 (40:48):
Yeah, I mean just so.
It's every youth, everyministry, gospel responsibility.
And so if we could just that'slike our, that's like our, our,
our motivating factor is that,um, we believe that we can
influence every youth in everyform of ministry, whether it's
camp or church or whatever it isevery ministry, and then they
(41:09):
can all have this gospelresponsibility.
This idea of just you know,like leading up, leading up
people, like there's it's,there's so much freedom in it,
but you can do it because God'scalling you to do it so kind of
hard.
Speaker 2 (41:21):
So, the big aha for me.
Well, there's been a number ofthem, but right there, in what
you shared every person at everyage and stage, like if churches
had intention around, becauseall I heard, I know you, I see
you right and then I see how Godhas gifted you.
So from the ICU to the IC inyou, and then I want to help you
(41:45):
on your next step.
What is your next ministry step?
How does the gospel get livedout in your home, in the
marketplace job that you have,wherever it happens to be,
wherever you have influence?
I want to be about equippingyou for that right next.
Yes, that is a system, that is away of being, and you can
actually put that for those ofthe data, the data folks in our
(42:05):
ministry like you can walk downthat line.
Just a little shout out.
This is exactly what we teachat the ULC, not just with youth,
but exactly with what's yourleadership development pathway
after you start to have theconversation with that person.
So put them on that serve team,put them into leadership in
time, help them to coach othersas their influence grows and
(42:26):
maybe they grow up into the nextgeneration of leaders within
your church as the director ofministry and whatever the role
happens to be.
So there's nothing new aboutthis.
No offense to what you'resaying, it's just I love.
The big thing for me is we'llget super passionate, I think,
across the synod, about who'sgoing to challenge this right.
Who's going to challenge youguys pouring this into the next
(42:49):
generation.
Like there's nothingcontroversial about this.
We should be doing it at everyage and stage.
Anything more to say about thatand how this could be enacted,
even cross-generationally,jonathan.
Speaker 3 (42:59):
I mean just going back to the four-year-old
holding the communion cups,right, like it's little things
that you see, that can be bigthings.
Like you know, like we're notjust like, oh my gosh, we have
this huge, this huge thing.
Now we have to raise all theseleaders, no, like just one, one
youth or one person at a time intheir ministry.
And then the next thing, likeit's, it's like it's okay, it's
like so it's just, you know,it's not like oh my gosh, what,
(43:26):
jackie?
Anything to add.
Speaker 1 (43:28):
Yeah.
So Jonathan and I serve on ateam in our district called the
Encouragers.
Because we're four states, weare partially rostered, we have
a lot of lay leaders doing thesame youth ministry work, and so
we have a team dedicated tokind of trying to be connected
to and helping those leadersfeel like they're not alone in
their ministry.
And so we were like why don'twe just took the word youth off
(43:50):
of all this stuff and use thesame idea in how we as district
leaders try and care for ourother leaders doing it?
So I think that generationalaspect is there and we're
working on developing a database.
The paper tool is to kind oftrain us in the work of having
these eyes and documenting andthings like that.
(44:10):
We're building an onlinedatabase.
It'll still be all anonymous.
You know we're asking you toshare what you're doing with
minors, so there's not going tobe any names or ages connected
with it.
But just to be like this thinkgroup pool of like oh yeah, I
have this kid with this gift.
This is what my ministry lookslike.
How have other people found toinvite and plug them in?
(44:33):
And you know, we're talkingabout a database for youth, but
maybe also one for leaders too,of how we can, just like group
think, this invitation posturein our church body and beyond.
Speaker 2 (44:46):
This is so fun Closing comment here for me, and
then I'll get you guys takenand point people to where they
can be a part of this youthleadership initiative.
So exciting Is skilldevelopment.
There's new neurologicalresearch that's going on right
now that says skill development,gift development, is not about
(45:07):
the 10,000 hours You've heardthis right.
You've got to do 10,000 hoursof a skill to become an expert
in it or even proficient in it.
That's not what the data isshowing.
They're actually showing andthis is so applicable.
This is all secular stuff, butit's so applicable to
discipleship?
No, it's.
I see in you and then I'm goingto give you small bits of
(45:28):
feedback based on that skill.
It's not failure is not fatal,it's not like you're not gifted.
I see this in you.
But we could try this, we couldtry this and the quicker that
iteration of failure and minimalviable product moving it out,
moving it out, testing it,trying it, failing, and then
like growing the muscles forthat respective skill.
That's what leads toproficiency in that respective
(45:50):
skill.
Isn't that fascinating?
Like it's not about the amountof time, like you can, but it's
about humility.
So only the humble learner canreceive from the person who's
advanced.
They're like oh, I get justenough Jesus juice of
encouragement and then I'mgrowing.
Isn't that exactly what Jesusdid with the disciples for the
three years?
Speaker 3 (46:08):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:08):
I'm growing.
Isn't that exactly what Jesusdid with the disciples for the
three years?
Oh yeah, I'm going to let youtry, I'm going to come back.
We're going to like, shape it.
I see the pride that's in youand he started the greatest
movement by the Spirit's powerthe world has ever known, a
movement of humility using theirrespective gifts, and the
Apostle Paul obviously keys intothis in Romans, chapter 12, 1
Corinthians, chapter 12,.
Looking at all these differentgifts, where would you be, apart
(46:33):
from the head and the hands, etcetera?
Right, all unique gifts.
Wouldn't it be amazing?
This sounds like the kingdom.
Wouldn't it be amazing if welooked at one another like that
and said, wow, there's a part ofme that I see in you and I've
grown in proficiency toward thisend.
This is discipleship.
It's not the person that's wayahead.
They're just like one stepahead and they're helping to
like, form, the character, thecontent, the craft of that
person as they grow up into thehead which is Jesus, the Christ.
We need to get away from thisprofessional clergy,
(46:57):
professional church worker class, the people that are on the
stage that do the thing it'shurting our mission and come
down with the people this iswhat Jesus did and come down
into with the people.
This is what Jesus did, and Isit with them, identify their
gifts and help them toward theirnext.
Yes, I just affirm everythingyou're saying, man, it's so,
it's so.
Jesus inspired, holy Spiritinspired.
(47:19):
Praise be to God.
Closing comments Jonathan, andthen I'll let you close it out.
Speaker 3 (47:22):
Oh man, this is like my fourth closing comment.
Speaker 2 (47:25):
I don't know, well, you got one more.
I I don't know, well, you gotone more.
I need to say something else towhat I just said.
Just respond to what I justsaid, jonathan.
Speaker 3 (47:31):
I mean it's absolutely true.
I mean like everything.
Yeah, I mean the cool thingabout this is that it.
I mean, I think, like jokinglyyou know, we started doing
before we did all the researchwe were kind of like reading all
the you know and like the likethe 30,000 foot view step back
is like you, like you said, likeit's, it's not profound, like
(47:53):
this isn't, this isn't aphenomenal insight at all.
And then what?
What our great leader, dust,said, like anything like that,
like literally, when we started,we're like this is what we're
going to find.
We're going to find somethingto be like uh, duh, basically,
but like the cool thing aboutthat is that you have all this
research of knowing like this isthis, is this is this is this
isn't just hindsight, this isjust gas.
Like this is actually things,these are people that are
(48:15):
involved with leaders, they'redoing things, and yeah, and it's
and it's so, it's yeah.
So, yes, it is very, very, verysimple, but it's also research
backed and it's kind of cool tofall back on that.
Speaker 2 (48:25):
Well, simple things need to be executed, and that's
not a simple task.
The execution is not a simplething.
To take that next step inuncharted waters, that's not a
simple thing.
So I love how this tool movesus in that direction.
Jackie, now your third orfourth closing comments and help
people figure out where theycan get connected with your work
, jackie.
Speaker 1 (48:45):
Yeah, well, it's no simple thing, but I think, as
LCMS people, we're wired for it.
We are missional, walkingtogether in Concord people, and
so we have amazing trainingprograms.
If we trust those to trickledown to the people that are on
the ground doing the work, Ijust think, yes, it's going to
(49:09):
be a challenge, yes, there's alot of ask in it, but we're
primed for it.
God is going with us If we keepour eyes on him and follow
where he's leading.
Like we can do this and I, yeah, it's exciting to have the
opportunity to be a part of it.
Speaker 2 (49:22):
So good.
How can people connect?
Speaker 1 (49:31):
Yeah, yeah.
So we are trying to make ournowlcmsorg slash YLI website
kind of our hub for all of this.
You can download the fullreport there, which has
wonderful questions at the end,you know, to help you have eyes,
to look at what you're alreadydoing, small changes you can
make to help it go better.
That will also be the placewhere right now, you can
download kind of the testversion of our no-name journal.
There's a feedback form.
So if you're using it, tell uswhat you love, tell us what you
(49:53):
hate, how we can make it better.
We're going to be launchingthat.
We have a youth and familyministry conference here in the
district in May and we're goingto pilot that out to all of our
leaders there.
Speaker 3 (50:02):
Anyone can join us too, it's great.
Speaker 1 (50:05):
Yeah, we're going to Leavenworth, washington, which
is a wonderful place if youhaven't been there, and it's
just a time to connect and berecharged.
Chad the keys with LutheranHour Ministries is going to be
our speaker this year.
It's always a fun time, butwe're the now LCMS district
because there's also NorthWisconsin, so they're an NW we
are NOW.
(50:25):
So if you're trying to find ourwebsite, n-o-w lcmsorg slash
YLI, that's our hub.
We also have ayouthandfamilyatnowlcmsorg email
address that I monitor and canshare with Jonathan and Dust, so
that's the best place if youwant to shoot us an email.
Yeah, we would love for peopleto have this stuff in their
(50:48):
hands and test it and let usknow how well it works for them
so we can keep working towardthe best thing to equip our
leaders with.
Speaker 2 (50:56):
And this has been so inspiring, grateful for you both
.
This is the Tim Allman podcast.
Please like, subscribe, comment.
Wherever it is you take inthese conversations, I don't
know how anybody could listen tothis and say you know what?
I'm not a fan of that.
That doesn't sound good Like.
No, let's get grumpy Lutheran.
Let's find the joy of Jesusespecially and unite as the
people of God in the LCMS toraise up the next generation of
(51:19):
leaders, to see them, to seetheir gifts and to work toward
the strategic yes based on thosegifts.
It's a beautiful thing topartner with you both.
You're a gift to the body ofChrist and to me and to everyone
who listened today.
We'll be back next week withanother episode of the Tim
Allman Podcast.
It's a good day.
Go make it a great day.
Thanks so much, jackie.
Thanks, jonathan.
Speaker 3 (51:39):
Thank you Tim.
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