Stop Preserving—Start Planting: The Real Reason the LCMS Is Stuck

Let’s start having the hard conversations that move the Church forward.

Is church planting just a trendy distraction from revitalization? Or is it exactly what the LCMS needs right now?

In this powerful conversation, Tim Ahlman sits down with Mark and Laura Pulliam—founders of Lazarus Church in Spring, Texas—who planted just 10 weeks before the pandemic… and thrived. Together they confront outdated models of ministry, risk-aversion in Lutheran leadership, and why launching new churches might be our best tool for reaching the de-churched and unchurched.

Hear why their church didn’t worship publicly for 18 months, why being “Lutheran” isn’t always on the sign, and why church planting is more accessible than most think.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to the Tim Allman Podcast.
It's a beautiful day to bealive.
Pray, the joy of Jesus is withyou.
As I get the chance to hang outwith a husband and wife, a
ministry couple in the LCMS,mark and Laura Apolium, let me
tell you about them.
They are a church planning teambehind Lazarus Church in Spring
, texas.
Steve Soans, a friend of mine,pastor in Texas, said hey, you

(00:27):
got to talk to this couple andI'm so, so pumped for this
conversation.
They're a Lutheran church thatlaunched 10 Sundays before the
pandemic.
The reason I laugh is ourmulti-site launched like a month
before the pandemic.
Yeah, oh well, that's hard andis thriving today through that
as a hub for multiplying andincubating everyday missionaries
, gospel experiments and futurechurch planners.

(00:49):
Praise God.
Mark is a CMC pastor, astoryteller.
His greatest passion is to helppeople discover who God made
them to be and pointing them toan identity rooted in Christ
through baptism.
He holds a master's in theologyfrom Concordia, irvine, and a
BA as a DCE from Concordia,Texas.
He's also good friends and aclassmate in the CMC, the
Cross-Cultural Ministry Program,with my good buddy, longtime

(01:11):
pastor friend, jake Besling.
Let me tell you about Laura.
Laura is a director ofChristian education and a brand
photographer.
She is currently bivocationalas a co-planter of Lazarus
Church and a small businessowner.
What's your business?

Speaker 2 (01:24):
Laura I.
It's vintage photography,simple vintage photography in
the North Houston area.
How?

Speaker 1 (01:30):
cool is that she graduated as a DCE in the DCE
program at Concordia, texas, andreceived her master's of
theology from Concordia.
You guys kind of flip-floppedthere a little bit.
From Concordia, irvine.
In 2018, mark and Laura movedto North Houston to start
Lazarus Church as part ofHarvest Partnership.
There we go, steve Soans andthe Harvest Partnership group, a

(01:50):
planning partnership that seeksto connect disconnected people
to Jesus, seems like a very goodthing to do.
His church and his kingdom,calling their lives to be
radically changed by the truthof who Jesus is and how much he
loves them.
Together, they're raising theirthree children.
They're in it Flint and Wade,two young boys, seven and four,
and then Casey, a little girl,one years old, raising them to

(02:11):
love Jesus, other people and thegreat and wild outdoors.
You can find their church atLazarusChurchcom.
How you doing, mark, laura, whata joy to be with you.
Thank you so much for having us.
Yeah, this is going to be fun.
All right, this is going to belargely a podcast around church
planning.
I'd love to have you, mark,maybe kick us off Make the case
for church planting in the LCMS.

(02:31):
Some people say we've gotenough churches, we need to work
on revitalization.
All is very, very true.
Well enough churches, I wouldsay, is definitely not true.
But we do need to work onrevitalization, but we also need
to work at church planting.
Talk about that, make the casein the LCMS, mark.

Speaker 3 (02:48):
Yeah, to kind of set the stage for it, I'm going to
kick it over to Laura.
Storytelling is such acompelling way to communicate
and I think there's a historicalprecedent for what we see, so
I'm going to kick it to you?

Speaker 2 (02:59):
Sure, we were talking about this the other day.
I'm not a history buff, so if Imess anything up you do have to
forgive me, but if you've seenthe movie or read the history of
Dunkirk, in the Battle ofOperation Dynamo, a lot of
stranded soldiers, alliedsoldiers, on the beach and not
enough people could get to them.
I think it was over 300,000soldiers waiting on the beach,

(03:21):
surrounded by German troops,needing to be rescued, and
obviously the first choice is tosend in as many Navy destroyers
as possible to go rescue thosesoldiers.
But even with all of the Navydestroyers that could be
mobilized, there was still notenough.
So what did they do?
They called in the yachts andthe pleasure vessels and the
life boats and everybody andanybody.

(03:43):
I think they had over 100civilian crafts in addition to
all these Navy destroyers goingin and all of these soldiers
were rescued.
And I think, when it comes tochurch planting, there are so
many analogies that we can pullfrom here, because we do need
churches, we need establishedchurches, we need to revitalize
churches, we need evangelists inneighborhoods, we need anybody

(04:06):
and everybody with a boat to getin it, because our culture is
there, everybody's going to gosomewhere.
And we all, every single one ofus, whether pastor, dce, lay
person, we all have a boat.
We, we know Jesus and we wantto bring people into a saving
relationship with him.
So everybody, grab an oar.

(04:27):
There's work for anybody andeverybody.
So if you are an establishedchurch, if you are a church
plant, if you are a church thatfeels like you're failing and
you need some resources torevitalize, yes, yes to all of
it.
So that's where we come from.
We are pro-church planting, weare pro-revitalization.
We are pro-church planting, weare pro-revitalization, we are
pro-established churches, we arepro-the gospel.

Speaker 3 (04:50):
I think the heart is that we want for disconnected
people to become connected toJesus, his church and his
kingdom, calling for their lives.
And, however that happens, wewant to be encouraging that In
the analogy, the destroyers,those that are well-trained,
they've got this militarybackground, they understand what
they're doing, they can do thatthe absolute best way.
We need pastors who are goingout and planting churches.

(05:12):
We also need people who, bynature of their baptism, are
missionaries to go out and behaving gospel conversations with
their neighbors and living insuch a way that they have the
opportunity to share this hopethat changes someone's eternal
destination.
It's not something that we haveto do because it's all on us.
The Holy Spirit is going totake care of that.

(05:33):
Obviously, we're going to livethat out in our vocation.
But we also need to be lookingfor those opportunities.
I think that's the prayer forthat kingdom calling peace that
God would open our eyes to thoseopportunities that are around
us, for the Holy Spirit to beworking in those places.
And I think, you know, in theLCMS in particular, if we're
just, you know, talking aboutour tribe, we have what I
believe is the best theology outthere.

(05:54):
It is solidly biblical, solidlyabout Jesus, solidly about
being saved by grace throughfaith in what he's done, and
it's really the best.
This is why I'm LCMS If itwasn't, I'd be somewhere else,
but I'm here because I really dobelieve this is the very best
that there is, and why would wenot be about getting that good

(06:15):
gospel message out to people whodesperately need to hear it?
So just some stats that justkind of come to mind Nerd data
nerds I love it, let's go.
So are we?
Some stats that just kind ofcome to mind Nerd data nerds?
I love it, let's go.
So are we.
So probably one of the mostformative documents we came
across as we were consideringchurch planting way back in the
day was this 2002.
Now.

Speaker 2 (06:34):
Very dated now.

Speaker 3 (06:36):
Why Plant Churches?
By Timothy Keller.
I know he wrote Center ChurchBig Long.
This one is a nice little smallpamphlet it's really easy to
find online too, but he made thecase that 60 to 80% of new
churches members were previouslynot attending any church body
and in 2014, so that's a littlebit dated.
Updated research from LifewayResearch found that 42% of

(06:57):
people attending a new churchhad previously not attended
church before or hadn't attendedchurch before for many years.
Starting new things really doesreach new people.
If we are really aboutconnecting more than just the
people that we see on a Sundaymorning, those who are
de-churched and unchurched thenwe need to be starting something
new that is accessible and hasaccessible points of entry for

(07:18):
people who have very little orno experience with a church
culture.
So I actually did the pause.

Speaker 1 (07:26):
Yeah, let's pause on that.
Really quick MarkSociologically.
Why do you think that is?
New people are more attracted,more likely to come into a new
thing.
I have my ideas, but I'd loveto get you guys take.

Speaker 2 (07:40):
Yeah, let me ask you a question If you're going to
move, your family and your kidsare going to start school, would
you rather do that at thebeginning of the school year,
when everybody's new, or in themiddle of the school year?

Speaker 1 (07:52):
Hey, there you go, I get it.

Speaker 2 (07:54):
It's honestly, it's easier to break in at the
beginning, like if we're justtalking sociologically, like
people would rather joinsomething that's not already
established and you know much aswe would like to say.
Well, I have a welcoming church.
You know.
We did traditional parishministry for eight years before
jumping into this churchplanting world and that was

(08:15):
something that we had to come togrips with just in ourselves as
our lives revolving aroundparish ministry and all the
ministries that we were runningand the great things that were
happening.
There were not a lot of entrypoints, even in the especially,
you know, in ministries that Iwas responsible for, I had not
intentionally built entry points.
So I think that's number one.

(08:36):
That's why new things reach newpeople.
And also it's just kind of likewe get desensitized to things
that we see all the time.
Think about just your commuteto your office.
Wherever you're going, youprobably your eyes are just
auto-correcting all these thingsthat are here all the time.
You don't even see them, butone new sign pops up and your
brain takes note of it.

(08:56):
And I think the same thinghappens in our communities.
If there's a church that's beenthere for 50 years, you know
people kind of auto-correct itout, but if something new
happens, people notice it in adifferent way and that's
certainly what we've found.
To go back to the research thatMark did you know when Lifeway
came out with that 42% of peopleat a church plant are new

(09:18):
people?
Like that sounds really awesome, but in my mind I'm always kind
of the skeptic, like oh well,surely that's you know, these
non-denom churches and stuff?
Nope, mark ran the numbers forLazarus Church two years ago and
we were sitting very much at41%.
41% of our congregation is hadnot been going to church before,
or they were not even Christianbefore.

(09:39):
So I don't even know if we'llbe able to explain it for
another 10 years why this isworking, but it's working.

Speaker 3 (09:48):
Yeah, I think you can think of the principle too when
it comes to small groups, rightand as, having worked in the
established church ministry aswell before we got into church
planning, one of the bigstruggles is always trying to
figure out how do we allowspaces for somebody new to show
up to a small group that's beentogether for a long time.
They've got a depth ofrelationship.
It's a really good thing.
Good spiritual care happens inthose forums, but it's going to

(10:11):
be really difficult for somebodyto break into a new group if
everybody there has been meetingfor a long, long time and knows
each other.
It's years of relationship.
So just one thing that we haveapplied using this kind of new
things to reach new peopleprinciple even to the way we
think about small groups is welaunch and land small groups
twice a year.
They'll kick off in the fallabout the time school starts,

(10:32):
and then they will land aroundThanksgiving time so that
there's a breaking point.
People can go be out in theircommunity, be doing Christmas
stuff.
I don't want them to be havinga bunch of commitments in the
month of December so they can beinviting people into their
lives, into their rhythms,whatever that looks like to get
the gospel out there.
Same thing during the summer.
We did land groups beforesummer happened, so that block

(10:52):
parties can happen, so peoplecan be engaged in what's going
on in the neighborhood around,not be so committed to a full
calendar at the church that theymiss opportunities to be
engaged with people outside thechurch.

Speaker 1 (11:04):
How'd you fall in love with church planning?
Could you tell that story?
Because not everybody.
You guys are kind of weird man,you know who wants to take on
that kind of risk Because thereis a risk to go launch.
I don't know exactly how thisthing is going to go.
What I do know is that risktolerance by many pastors,
regardless of the denomination,by many pastors and regardless
of the denomination, is oftenpretty low, the entrepreneurial

(11:27):
or kind of open to change kindof perspective for a lot of
church leaders.
We get into it because we lovethe tradition, we love the
ritual, we love what has beenand let us just kind of and I'm
painting with a broad brush, butthis is, I have data from my
doctor to kind of show this istrue that just kind of go along
to get along and let the churchkind of do what the church does.

(11:49):
I have made the case for a longtime that we need to be raising
up, at a variety of differentlevels, those that have not an
unhealthy sense of risk, becauseyou can go too far and it
becomes chaos, right, butslightly above average tolerance
for risk.
And could we cultivate that inour existing churches and then
spin off and send with kind ofthe undergirding foundation of

(12:12):
the local established churchthat you're going to be.
Ok, we're going to be therewith you, but we believe in you
Go.
We need more leaders like Markand Laura Pulliam.
So how do you become you?

Speaker 2 (12:23):
I think we could go in two directions.
One is I think I would justspeak to anybody listening and
say that God wired you the waythat he did for a reason.
This is not a faith resource,but I'm going to throw it out
because I think it's a helpfulframework.
Patrick Lencioni wrote a bookon working geniuses and it just
talks about how there aredifferent levels involved with

(12:44):
making a project.
You know you have a projectthat needs to happen from wonder
, like I wonder what could beall the way to someone's got to
land the plane and oftentimesit's not the same person
launching as landing a plane andI think what we're seeing is a
lot of church planters tend tobe a little bit higher on that.

(13:05):
I wonder how we could reachthis community for Christ.
Could we create a new ministryhere?
And they're inventing all thetime.
So as we look back at ourhistory and anybody listening,
look back at your history youmight know if you have the seeds
to be a church planter already.
I would say it's less to dowith risk assessment and I'll

(13:26):
talk about why in just a moment.
As it is, how did God wire youFrom the time I was a very
little kid, I can look back atmy history and go.
I was always starting littlebusinesses.
I had a duct tape walletbusiness that funded my first
year textbooks in college.
Like Mark, same thing he wasmowing lawns.
Like we were always inventingways to do new things that had

(13:47):
never been done.
And then, when it comes tochurch planting, as soon as we
saw that there was a need forthis thing that had been mulling
around in our heads and therewere the resources to make it
happen, there was the prayerthat had gone ahead of us.
We felt like that was theexternal confirmation for this
thing that was inside of us.
Now I will say I'm going to goback to the risk part when Mark

(14:12):
and I had talked.
Actually, you get started withthe 15-year backtrack, yeah yeah
, yeah.

Speaker 3 (14:17):
So back when we were finishing up undergrad, on our
way off to seminary, I thought Iwas going to St Louis.
Cmc was sort of on my radar atthe time and then became the
main thing shortly afterward.
But with the process back inthat day was we would have to go
in for an interview before apanel of fellow pastors and they
would just kind of have thediscussion and send a

(14:38):
recommendation up to the mainoffice, right.
So we are sitting there as ayoung engaged couple we're not
even married yet at this pointand we were talking about how we
what brought us together.
One of the big hallmarks of ourrelationship was we we liked
working on group projectstogether.
You know how awful groupprojects are Like.
You always end up having topull the weight for somebody
who's not pulling their weightand it was nice to be able to

(15:01):
finally find somebody who couldrun at the same speed that the
other person could run.
So we ended up working togetheron a lot of group projects in
undergrad and, hearing that,knowing that that was part of
our relationship, part of ourhistory.
It was Kevin Westergren, who'snow at Redeemer in Austin, who
said have you guys ever thoughtabout church planting, because
this could be really cool to seethat play out.

Speaker 2 (15:23):
And I was like I don't even know what that is,
yeah, talking about Not even onour radar at all.

Speaker 3 (15:28):
But that question kind of rolled around in the
back of our mind for anotherseven years, eight years, as we
were pondering what would itlook like to start something new
from scratch?
What could be built if we werenot building on any sort of

(15:50):
foundation that was alreadythere, but could actually just
build and design what we thinkis absolutely best from the
get-go.
And so that was really excitingfor us.
And if you're that kind ofentrepreneurial church planter
heart, that question is going toresonate a lot with you.
You're going to find yourself,like Laura said, inventing
things just because you can'thelp it.
It just it comes out of the waythat God built and wired you.
And that's not to say that ifyou don't have that you can't be
a church planter.
I think there's a huge varietyof gifts, as Laura talked about

(16:12):
in the Patrick Lencioni thing.
That's a great framework thegifts that God gives to us.
There's lots of good scriptureabout the body of Christ, how we
need each other, how we workwell with each other.
Somebody who maybe is good atthe galvanizing and enabling
pieces that Lindsay Oni'sframework puts forward could use
somebody around who is a wonderinvention type, who's saying
what are we doing to reach thesepeople out there?
What can we come up with?

(16:33):
That's going to be somethingthat could connect here with
this person that isn'tnecessarily being reached
otherwise.

Speaker 2 (16:40):
Now to the risk assessment piece.
We were at an establishedchurch.
We were both on staff.
It was a mid-sized congregation.
We had just had our first baby.
Mark has had his church planterassessment application to the
Texas district, comfortablysitting on the desk for like two
years at this point, like twoyears at this point, and you

(17:06):
know I'm still on maternityleave with our fresh newborn,
and he walks in the door andsays I finally turned in that
church planter assessment.

Speaker 1 (17:09):
It's like okay, great timing, yeah good timing.

Speaker 2 (17:14):
So as much as I wanted to be on board you know
you are looking for a certainstability in your life and
ministry and church plantingdoes it does the idea felt very
risky.
But if I could just kind of,you know, turn the corner here
and talk about what ourtransition period looked like,
yeah please.

(17:34):
We received a call after Markwas, you know, assessed by the
district.
We got.
We were both interviewed.
We got a green light.
We thought, oh, we're justgoing to sit on this for another
couple of years.
Very shortly after we got a callfrom Al Dering at Christ the
King in Kingwood and said hey,we're praying over this
neighborhood in North Houston.
We see a lot of rooftops andnot a lot of steeples.

(17:57):
It's a very housing centricarea, like it's just a lot a lot
of houses.
And they said we've beenpraying at a coffee shop nearby
or a pizza place nearby and wereally think that a church plant
needs to be in thisneighborhood.
So we take our nine month oldand we're driving to Houston and
the whole way I'm like I cannotbelieve we're wasting these

(18:20):
good people's time.
I would.
We're not going to move Like.
We're just so very stable rightnow.
This is.
This is silly.
And by the time we left thatweekend with what would turn
into now the harvest partnership, I was just scrolling Zillow
because I was like I don't evencare, I want to be a part of
this.
And the thing that made the riskgo away was here around this

(18:45):
table, were all of these pastorsof established churches Some of
them had been there 30 plusyears in their congregations Al
Dering, steve Soans and thenyou've got some younger guys who
have just planted a church lessthan five years ago and they're
all sitting at this table andthey're all saying we've been
praying for you or you knowsomeone like you.

(19:05):
We don't know who God is sending, but God is sending someone to
reach these people, because noneof our churches are reaching
this little slice right here.
None of us are able to reachthem.
And we want to send money andpeople and physical resources
and we want to come around yourelationally, we want to be your
friends.
We sat on the floor, you know,with the Coonsey family and the

(19:29):
Benson family and asked themstraight out like, if we came
here, would you actually be ourfriends?
Yes, and they've been ourfriends.
So by the time we were drivinghome, so much generosity had
been extended, so much kingdommindedness, just acknowledging
that if God is going to dosomething here, he's going to

(19:51):
provide more than what we needthrough all of us working
together.
It did not feel risky by thetime we got back to San Antonio.
It did not feel risky to planta church.

Speaker 1 (20:01):
Oh, that's, I mean the book of Acts coming alive.
Guys, you got to be a part ofit, man, how cool is that?
Because the Al and the Steve,you know, those guys are kind of
like apostolic leaders in theTexas district and through
Harvest Partnership and you know, I think of the Timothy or

(20:22):
Titus and like they stood on theshoulders of the 12 and
obviously the Apostle Paul andand they didn't, the risk was
kind of gone because Jesus wasthere and his church was there
and prayer was there and therewas a sending spirit.
You can do it, we're with you,you're not alone.
And so, yeah, man, could thatstory be told more and more in

(20:45):
our church body.
That is so good, that's the wayit's supposed to work, and so
I'd love to get behind thescenes just a little bit more
for folks.
So you say yes, what are someof the first steps you start to
do in partnership with HarvestPartnership, et cetera, to
launch what became LazarusChurch?
How long was the preparationstage, launch stage?

(21:06):
Just tell that story a littlebit.

Speaker 3 (21:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (21:09):
Can we start?

Speaker 2 (21:10):
in San Antonio.

Speaker 3 (21:11):
We can.
Before we jump to that, though,even the the risk assessment
part, though one more to doubleclick on.
But we're sitting in the theback porch.
Actually, we're right now atSteven Ursula's house, as
they're watching our youngest,casey, so we can be on the
podcast, which is awesome,thanks.
But they they really do embodythat kind of open-headed
generosity in everything thatthey do.

(21:31):
Their ethos is absolutely 100%authentic.
They hosted a bunch of peopleat the back porch.
We were having a conversation,and one of the leaders at
Resurrection, which is one ofthe ascending churches, asked
the question what would failurelook like for you guys?
And we said well, failure wouldlook like nobody getting to
hear about Jesus, and we knowthat's not going to happen.

(21:52):
So I mean, you know, if thattruly is failure, then even if
it doesn't work out and we endup having to figure things out
when the money runs out, wewould be okay.
It's not a failure because thekingdom of growth is happening,
yeah, so back to San Antonio.
When we were in San Antonio,yeah.

Speaker 2 (22:08):
So where it all started was for us personally,
for our family.
We had to start in a spirit ofrepentance because we looked at
our neighborhood and we said wedo not know these people.
So the first thing we did, aswe're packing up to move, is we
hosted a block party for ourneighborhood in San Antonio.
We got to know some names, youknow.

(22:30):
We kind of left with a blessingto our neighborhood and with
that spirit of repentance of a,we did not do what we were
called to do, just not as churchworkers but as like Christian
neighbors.
We've been talking about it fora long time We've been talking
about it, but we didn't knowtheir names, we didn't know
their stories.
We had a couple over to ourhouse that the gentleman he

(22:52):
ended up passing away of cancerjust not long after we moved.
We had moving boxes all overour living room, but we had them
into our living room just tohear their story, to tell them
what we were doing, how we weregoing to plant a church, and so
I think that's the first stepfor anybody who wants to get
into church.
Planting is just a spirit ofrepentance and humility and

(23:12):
going, gosh, we don't know whatwe're doing, at least for us.
We were so entrenched in ouryou know, very comfortable
parish ministry that we had nota culture of invitation but a
culture of preservation, like,okay, I've got this ministry
spinning, like I have to expendall of my time and resources

(23:32):
keeping this thing that I havebuilt going, and that was very
humbling, I think, for us torecognize, okay, we're not going
to have this anymore, so allthat's left is invitation.
So then you know, here we go,we move to North Houston and
then the next 18 months we'rekind of training.

Speaker 3 (23:49):
Yeah, we had a fishing license from the
different churches that weresending us.
So at Christ the King, theDwelling and Resurrection, we
were given permission to show up, cast the vision.
They gave me time to be able tospeak.
You know, lead the sermon, doopportunities to engage with
Bible studies, share what itfeels like God is calling us to
do and invite people to pray.

(24:11):
If it feels like the HolySpirit is leading you to be a
part of this, we'd love to havean additional conversation.
So from that there was severalvision kind of gatherings we had
at our house to just kind ofshare what was going on there.
One of my favorite people whoshowed up to that actually was
the disconnected husband of alady who was very much faithful
at the resurrection, but sheactually lived in our mission

(24:32):
focus area and so I was like man, you know, corey, I want to
hear your story.
Like if you hear something thatseems weird or off, like your
voice is the one we want to belistening to here, and a few
years back Corey was laughing atme.
He's become super connected toLazarus.
He's our like go-topercussionist.

Speaker 2 (24:51):
Integral is a better word than connected.

Speaker 3 (24:53):
Integral is absolutely right.
He was laughing because he hada better attendance record than
his wife did, actually.

Speaker 2 (24:59):
He has a better attendance record than I do.

Speaker 3 (25:01):
It's true.
So lots of vision gathering,just kind of sharing what we
felt like God was calling us todo.
We also had the team.
You know that invitation isalso paired with challenge.
So well, right, we had them doa lot of reading.
We read the Gospel Comes with aHouse Key by Rosaria
Butterfield just superfascinating book about
hospitality.

Speaker 2 (25:21):
Take or leave her theology, but like just her
story is very compelling.

Speaker 3 (25:26):
Yeah, we read church planting books.
We read about family worshipthat book by Donald Whitney we
had people read selections fromno Silver Bullets by Daniel M
and Planting Mission Churches byStetzer and Hans we took them
on field trips using thefirst-time visitor audit that
Daniel M has.

Speaker 2 (25:45):
So we would take them to go visit a church, maybe a
Lutheran church or maybe anon-denom church plant in our
area, and then we'd all gettogether and talk about, okay,
how did it feel to be new?
Because a lot of us don'tremember what it feels like to
be new and we have to revisitthat feeling so that we can
acknowledge the feelings ofother people walking into our
churches, and we should probablytalk about how worship is not

(26:07):
central to our rhythms ofdiscipleship.
But I mean, let's just talkabout it.
Worship is super weird.
Like it's super weird.
It is the weirdest thing that weas the church, one of the
weirdest things that we as thechurch of God do is corporate
worship, because unless you'regoing to a concert or a baseball
game, people don't corporatelysing.
Let's just talk about singing.

(26:27):
It is weird.
Sitting in rows and singing isweird unless you're at a concert
, and so we just had to kind ofremind ourselves OK, for the
person who does not go to churchor, you know, hasn't been to
church since a really badexperience with their great
grandma 25 years ago how do wewelcome them and do we have

(26:48):
other on ramps for them besidesand in addition to corporate
worship?
So we actually delayed thestart of corporate worship at
Lazarus for about 18 months andencouraged our people, like as
we're training them, to continueto worship and to be a part of
another Lutheran church in ourarea, because a lot of them were
already connected to a church.

(27:09):
Some of them got even moreconnected during that time.
But we wanted corporate worshipto kind of be the last rhythm
of following Jesus.
That we did as a church bodyand I think, especially with
where the pandemic fell with ourstart time, that ended up being
absolutely the right call forLazarus.

Speaker 3 (27:27):
We also launched groups about a semester before
worship began, so small groupswere already kind of kicked off
and that was great to have thosekind of depth of relationships
which really honestly carried usa lot of the way in the
pandemic, because when wecouldn't actually gather in
person, it was very natural forpeople to get online and say, ok
, well it's.
You know it's not in person,but at least I know some of the

(27:49):
people that are on here and Ican be connecting.
And I texted my neighbor, Iinvited them to tune into and
they were continuing to live inthat kind of liminal space when
we had a lot of uncertainty,even as we were launching and
figuring out what it was like tobe a church too.

Speaker 1 (28:05):
Yeah, how many groups did you have during that time?
Do you remember Five, six, 10?

Speaker 3 (28:09):
We we're in the rate somewhere between five.

Speaker 1 (28:12):
It was fairly small we launched with about 20 25
people about 25 people includingkids, so we were pretty small
when we started you know, therewe're walking through a
consultation on multi-site andthe values of multi-site and
starting new and kind of knowwhen to do which.
In our context, phoenix Valley,booming, 1000 people a week

(28:35):
moving into our county.
I think there's room for bothapproaches, but the best
practice of multi site launchingis the you've got an
established brand and you wantto take that established brand
to a new place, and I mean themega churches around here launch
.
They're looking at rooftops,just like you're talking about,

(28:57):
and they will launch.
It's insane with sometimesupward of a thousand people on
the launch Sunday.
I mean that's wild for we asLutherans, oh my goodness.
So the best practice formulti-site launch is at least
200 people for your openingworship gathering, which we
didn't do.
That with our multi-site.
I think we were close.

(29:18):
This is Jake.
This is Jake launching ourmulti-site back in the day,
right before the.
I would say we were probably180 or something like that on
launch Sunday, most of whom werefrom our community, since we've
been around after COVID aroundthe 100 mark for a bit and yeah,
so that's.
There's a different approachthere to multi site, which I

(29:38):
believe has its place.
But I also think churchplanning it may not be cookie
cutter, we've got to large modellaunch right up front.
If there is the runway one,you've got to have, as Steve
Soans called you, if there isthe runway one, you've got to
have, as Steve Soans called you,both the power planting couple.
It's very strange.
That's what he told me aboutyou guys, which is true, you

(29:59):
guys are together, but there's acommitment, the runway with a
group of people, for you know, acouple, three years, you're
going to be okay, but we need to.
We can start small and startrelationally and build out that
team.
I have to look at the earlychurch, like that's obviously
the way it started.
There's a small church meetingin a house and they're maybe

(30:20):
Jewish, and so they're going tointeract and do evangelism with
Jews in the temple, templecourts, et cetera, to let them
know the Messiah has come andand it started much more
organically than I think a lotof the multi-site approaches we
have today.
There's room, there'sdefinitely room for both, but I
would love to see, out of ourcongregation, more plants,

(30:41):
identify couples like you, andwhat I love about the story is
partner with other churches tohelp launch those respective
couples because, man, we needmore churches in our Phoenix
Valley as well.
So any comments.
Any comments, though, from youguys in terms of multi-site
maybe you haven't been aroundmulti-site as much as I have and
others have, but multi-site andand launching new Mark or Laura

(31:02):
.

Speaker 3 (31:03):
Yeah, I mean the um.
I think both models have theirstrengths and benefits.
To you they're there.
We should be planting lots ofchurches.

Speaker 2 (31:12):
however, it gets done , let's take it back to the
Dunkirk model.
Let's just get it done.
Let's get it done with thosesmall boats all the way up to
the big ones.
Let's do it all.
Mice and elephants.

Speaker 3 (31:23):
Yeah, yeah.
So Houston Church PlannerNetwork has this great line that
they use.
I forget who the head of theperson is who originally said
this, but he said I forget whothe head of the person is who
originally said this, but hesaid we want to see the church
invade Houston, not like a herdof elephants, but more like an

(31:43):
infestation of mice.
We want to see lots and lots ofchurches popping up all over
the place, because it's being alot more efficient in some cases
than having one really bigbehemoth that we land over.
I know another big behemoththat we're going to land over.
Here there's a mobile Now, notthat there can't be those things
.
Those things are great,wonderful.
They connect people to Jesus.
Praise God, there's a mobilityto something that maybe is a
little bit smaller, that allowsyou to adjust when the community

(32:06):
needs maybe aren't exactly whatyou thought from the get-go,
and I think we've seen there'ssome helpful things that come
from that too.
And truthfully, honestly,starting small is probably where
I would guess most of thepeople who are listening to this
.
The encouragement that I wouldhave for them is do smart, start
small.
Starting with a multi-sitelaunch where you're sending 200
people.
That's not accessible for mostpeople in an LCMS context.

(32:29):
What is more accessible iscollaboration, and starting
small.
So collaboration we were thebenefits of people who came
along pastors, legacy pastors,30 years in a place, who had a
conversation with another pastorand said, hey, what would it
look like if we were to partnertogether to share some of the
risk, the financial risk, theresources, resource sharing, to
be able to make this happen.
And they did, and there wasincredible trust to that.

(32:53):
A lot of low control, highaccountability, conversations,
open-handed generosity, allthose kind of values of the
Harvest Partnership that we havewords for now were just kind of
there under the surface of thewater they were swimming in.
And so that is, I think,something that has to be there,
this trust, this idea that we'regoing to be in collaboration,
not competition, because it'snot a competition.

(33:17):
Jesus is every one of our boss,he's the one that we're
actually serving and he's theone who gets all the glory
anyway.
And then, secondly, start small.
One of our neighbors just downthe street started doing this
thing.
He said you know, we have thisthing in the church, where we
send people across the globe togo do mission work somewhere
else and they come back and theylike share what's going on.
I just want to know myneighbors and so he started
something that he's called HotDog Wednesday.
He grabs a pack of weenies youknow they're good hot dogs but

(33:40):
he throws them on the grill andhe's out there and they just
have like chips and stuff andyou bring your own drink and
they had a huge pile of peoplein their front yard just hanging
out because he wants to servehis neighborhood and get to know
his neighbors.
Could we do, as the church, moreHot Dog Wednesdays to get to
know our neighbors and haveopportunities for that?

(34:00):
I mean, what's the budget forthat, tim?
A pack of hot dogs, man, thatis cheap and easy and replicable
, why not?
What's keeping us from tryingsomething new to reach new
people with the good news ofJesus that can change someone's
eternity?

Speaker 2 (34:14):
I think that part of the reason we're hesitant to
jump on any one bandwagon forthis is the way to plant
churches, and even within theHarvest Partnership, every
church planter they brought inhas a completely different model
, if you want to call it that.
But I think what we all have incommon is that we want to share
what we have.
So I think if you think about,okay, well, if we're going to
talk multi-site and sending 200people, that's not accessible

(34:38):
for the majority of Lutheranchurches in the United States,
just because of the sizes of ourcongregation.
So that seems unattainable.
So we can kind of brush thatoff and say, well, I can't do
that.
But what if we break it downand say what if you could start
with Hot Dog Wednesdays?
Or what if you could start withdesignating, you know, $100,000
in your budget to you know,bring in a church planter to

(34:59):
sponsor a church planter for ayear.
Or $100,000 over four years toprovide an entire runway to
start a new congregation.
Well, what if that sounds liketoo much?
What if you could get threebuddies in your area and each of
you just designate $25,000?
Over the course of four or fiveyears you could start another
church.
And sometimes I'm just going toaddress the fear.

(35:22):
Well, I'm already the Lutheranchurch in my area.
We get that kind of parishmodel, but we are moving into a
time and place when more isbetter.
We think of our churches fromthe 1950s and we thought about
them like high schools.
I went to Georgetown.

(35:44):
Georgetown had one high school,you know Georgetown High School
.
What if we think about it likeelementary schools?
In our neighborhood alone thereare what four elementary
schools and we pass one on theway on a seven-minute drive to
where we meet for Lazarus.
I would love to see anotherLutheran church planted in all
four elementary schools in ourneighborhood.
I would love to see thatbecause I think that together we
could reach more people thanLazarus could reach.

(36:05):
So I think we have to startthinking of our congregations
less like high schools thecommunity high school and more
like elementary schools.
They're everywhere.
Let's put them everywhere.
Let's get more churches andreach more people.

Speaker 1 (36:18):
It's a beautiful vision.
I would love to see it takeplace.
I think there is still theparish model which keeps us
thinking if they live here,they're going to go to my thing.
It takes all kinds of churchesto reach all kinds of people
right now.
That's what our districtpresident says.
A hundred percent agree withhim.
And and so, yeah, could wecollaborate rather than compete

(36:40):
with one another?
And so let's get into it,lazarus.
What if I were to come on aSunday?
Where are we meeting?
What are we doing?
Talk about the DNA of yourchurch.

Speaker 3 (36:50):
So we meet in an elementary school.
Local elementary school chosethat intentionally.
As part of kind of our launchteam's preparation for launching
, we visited several possiblelocations, one that I honestly
thought we were going to be inbecause we had met this guy on a
prayer walk and had the teamcome and meet this guy.
It was a good conversation.
He has a volleyball gymnasiumin our mission focus area and as

(37:14):
I was taking the team todifferent places, we were prayer
walking over differentpotential locations.
We showed up at one.
We actually went inside, walkedaround and some of the ladies
after were like that smells likea gym.
I don't know that we should doit and I'm like, oh, I didn't
even think about, I didn'tnotice.
So I'm glad I have a teamaround me who can make me better
than me making boneheaddecision on my own.
So we meet in an elementaryschool because very few people

(37:36):
have had a bad experience at anelementary school In our area.
The elementary schools are akind of a hub for community
activity, so it makes sense thatwe've got a fantastic, honestly
relationship with our principal.
She loves that a school, that achurch is meeting at the school
.
We partner with them for abunch of events to just kind of
bless the teachers but also getconnected with families.

(37:56):
We try to be available for theevents that they invite us to
and be a presence in thecommunity so people can say, oh
okay, this is a church that'slocal, one that we know is here
and that we can connect with.
So, just trying to get thingsout there, show up on a Sunday
morning.
You're going to see steppingstones.
There's going to be prettyclear.
Here's the entry.
You know there's flags andstuff.

(38:17):
When you go in the front doorsyou can see, okay, over there is
the welcome table.
So I'm going to go towards that.
And the next thing you're goingto see is the coffee and the
baby changing area and therestroom where that is, because
those things are all superimportant, right, and you'll
have people engaging, askingquestions, asking hey, is this
your first time here?
Can I help show you aroundwhere kids are?
I notice you have kids.
Here's the place where LazarusKids is going to meet later in

(38:39):
the service.
Here's what that's going tolook like.
Come in the back and get somecoffee.
Let me introduce you tosomebody else.
So it strives to be a verywelcoming place.
Practically.
We're very lightweight.
We fit everything in a 20-foottrailer, 7 by 15.

Speaker 2 (38:54):
Yeah, it's a very small trailer.
Everything goes in there.
We got a grant to cover rollingcarts so that it's very easy
onloading and offloading.
We built the system so thatit's less like loading a
dishwasher, as in there's onlyone right way to do it, and more
like a okay, this is so easyand labeled that a brand new
person who's having aconversation can get involved

(39:16):
and feel like an integral partof putting the church back in
the box.
You know, at the end of theservice and we've seen that,
especially engaging young menlike these boxes are so big,
only like big, strong guys canroll them, and so the moms all
stand around while the kids runcrazy and visit and the dads all
like roll these carts in.
We are a very young congregationbecause that is just what our

(39:39):
community looks like.
It's a very young neighborhoodarea, but we represent multiple
generations.
We talk about how the noise ofkids is very welcome at Lazarus
Church and we makeaccommodations for that.
We say that discipleship isjust very messy and we're here
to support you in whatever youneed.

(40:00):
So we've got a lot of peoplewho were disconnected from
church and started coming backbecause they said, okay, if my
husband's working, or my wife isworking and I'm solo parenting
on a Sunday, it's easier tobring my kids to Lazarus than it
is to like stay home with them.
So that's kind of the culturethat we've sought to create, and
it's working.

Speaker 3 (40:20):
It is.
I will say too, worship is onepiece to all of it, right?
So we emphasize the rhythms ofdiscipleship rest, read, worship
, study, celebrate, serve andprayerfully repeating that
process over and over again, andthat's just our
contextualization of the greatcommandment and the great
commission put into languagethat people in our culture can
understand.
We have worship as one of thoseseven rhythms, because it's one

(40:45):
piece, it's a very importantpiece, but it's not the only
piece.
So there are people who show upon a Sunday morning, have never
connected to us besides, theysaw a sign and they said okay, I
think I'm going to go checkthis out this week.
My favorites, though, are whenpeople show up and they've been
walking alongside somebody elsein the rhythms of discipleship
too, that somebody else has beeninviting them to walk with them
as they're walking with Jesus.

(41:06):
So I think of Alicia, who showedup because she was connected to
Sean and Misty and she was justgoing through a really
difficult time.
They came alongside her andadopted her into their family
and loved her, and she becameconnected to Lazarus Church
because of that expression oflove and care in her life.
I think of the other people whoare inviting people into groups

(41:28):
we had a couple of years ago Iguess it was 2022, one of my
favorite baptisms was themother-daughter baptism combo.
That all happened because thisone person who was connected to
Lazarus had a group in her homewhere she was engaging with
other young moms and just abunch of her neighbors showed up
.
She did a fantastic job leadingthat Bible study and because of

(41:49):
that, this family that had notbeen connected to a church,
didn't even own a Bible in theirhome, showed up and the mother
and daughter got baptized, andthat's just super exciting for
me.

Speaker 2 (41:57):
And they're still connected.
They are still connected and apart of our church which is
super awesome.

Speaker 1 (42:04):
Oh, hey, that's so good.
I love those stories.
What percentage because I thinkthis is part of the debate for
us in the LCMS is yes, we needmore churches to reach Lutherans
, but like confessionalLutherans, but like confessional
Lutherans, biblically orientedLutherans are not moving into
our communities like they oncedid, right, I mean in the PSD, a

(42:26):
lot of our early churches,pacific Southwest District in
California, southern Californiathere was a massive German
migration, mostly Lutheran, fromthe Midwest out to the West,
and so you could start a churchand you start with worship and
Lutherans show up.
Right, and, to be fair, thischurch that I'm at right here,

(42:47):
40 years old plus ChristGreenfield, was started with
that sort of an approach.
There are Lutherans moving outto Gilbert, out to the East
Valley, and so let's start achurch.
We're not in Kansas anymore,Toto, things have changed.
So a church.
We're not in Kansas anymore,toto, things have changed.
So what percentage of folks asthey find out, is this a
Lutheran church or they justcome?
I'm going to guess it's thelatter.

(43:09):
This is what I'm experiencing.
Many people are coming herethat have been disconnected,
de-churched or never connectedto a church, that were invited
by a friend and we want them tomeet and know Jesus and then, at
the appropriate time, we'regoing to let them know and this
is how we articulate our faithconnected to our Lutheran
heritage, the Lutheranconfessions.
Is that similar to your story,mark and Laura?

Speaker 3 (43:31):
Yeah, People, always they get a little bit of
heartburn over is Lutheran inthe name or not?
Are you hiding the fact thatyou're Lutheran or not?
You don't hide that.
It comes out in absolutelyeverything as I explain the
beliefs of Lazarus Church thatwe are about, that we're saved
by grace alone, through faithalone and Christ alone, as
revealed in scripture alone, andgo through these Lutheran

(43:52):
distinctives.
It's astounding to me how manypeople have this realization of
like, oh, you know, I grew up ina different church body, but
actually I think I'm probablyLutheran.
Actually, if you're explainingit like, that actually makes
sense to me.
It's a we.
We have this incredible giftand I don't think it is
something that we have to be asconcerned about.

(44:15):
Yes, there are Lutherans movinginto new areas.
We do need to have a place forthem to go.
There's lots of places for themto go actually.
But you're right, In theculture in which we live, that
sort of denominational identityis becoming of less and less
value.
So I think we have to go backto what are the distinctives
that actually are lived out?
How are we actually living outour values?
We value this incredible giftof grace by faith in Jesus, and

(44:38):
it changes lives and as you hearabout it and get to see it
lived out in this place, we hopethat it touches you and changes
you too, and that if this issomething that resonates with
you, we want you to be a part ofthe journey.
Keep walking with us as we walkwith Jesus.

Speaker 2 (44:51):
I think we are all charged with exegeting our
culture and as we were doingthat process for this area that
we were called to, one of thethings we realized that a lot of
people in this area would saythat they are Christian.
But then, when Mark actuallydid the work and called every
Christian church within a10-mile radius of where we were

(45:13):
called to plant, he asked them acouple of questions.
He asked them a couple ofquestions.
He said if every service thatyou offer and every was filled
to capacity, every seat filledto capacity, how many people
could have a seat on a Sunday?
And he took all of thesechurches data and he added it
all up and what he found was inthis area that said that it was,

(45:33):
you know, 80 percent Christian.
In reality, if every church inthat area was full to capacity
at every service, only about 20%would actually have a seat Less
, less.
It was a very small percentage.

Speaker 3 (45:47):
Credit where credit's due.
I got that from Ted Daring,whom you've had on the podcast
before.
He referenced us, so I got toreference him.
He is a good friend and thechurch that does that in his
area in the Round Rock area doesit on a much grander scale.
I was just focused on ourmission-focused area where we
were planning on planting.

Speaker 2 (46:03):
So, with that data in mind, we had that discussion
very early on of do we putLutheran in the name?
And what we landed on was, yes,we're going to put Lutheran in
the name, but we're not going tomarket it, we're not going to
put it on the signs.
So our official name is LazarusLutheran Church and if you walk
in and you're familiar withLutheranism, you're going to go
oh yeah, this is a Lutheranchurch.
I say those that same.
You know those confession, theconfession and absolution, like

(46:26):
oh, that's copy paste.
I know where they got that from.
It's going to sound veryfamiliar, but it's not on the
signs.
Because what we found was a lotof people were saying they were
Christian, but what they meantby that is that their family was
Catholic or they went toCatholic school, or they used to
be Presbyterian or they hadsome other denomination that
they had in their head that theywere, but they weren't living

(46:47):
it.
And so we wanted those peopleto feel welcome and to be able
to tell people, you know, familymembers, like, yeah, I'm going
to Lazarus Lazarus Church, youknow, and it seemed more
approachable.
Lazarus, lazarus Church, youknow, and it seemed more
approachable.
So if you were to talk to manyof the people in our
congregation, they would tellyou that, yeah, I grew up
Catholic or I grew up Methodist,but they hadn't been in the

(47:08):
last 10 or 15 years, and so wejust that was a big discussion
is, where does the word Lutheranfit?
And that's where we landed.

Speaker 1 (47:18):
Guys, this has been so much fun.
Last question what do you sayto someone who says Jesus never
said anything about plantingchurches?
He said go and make disciples.
That's a popular phrase that isout there right now.
We're about making disciples.
It is quite interesting that, Imean, even the Apostle Paul, in
his writings, is not like givingthis huge charge.

(47:40):
I mean, maybe you guys find it?
No, he's responding to what isthe church is on the move,
disciples have been made,leaders are being multiplied,
right, I mean, this is what he'stalking about.
He's not saying, hey, and youguys, you got to make sure
you're launching up.
No, like the DNA of launching,because the, the Holy Spirit,
was doing.
It was alive and well.
You know, and that's what wegot to pray for, I think, is the

(48:04):
Holy Spirit to descend upon usand our hearts break For people
who are not disciples of Jesus,who don't know the goodness, the
grandeur, the love.
We're recording this duringHoly Week right, it's probably
being released after that theEaster reality, the hope that
life wins on the last day whenJesus comes back to make all
things new.
You're a part of the greatestlove story of all time.

(48:24):
Because we're connected toJesus, we want more and more
disciples of Jesus, those thatthen in turn.
Naturally it's very evident whywouldn't I share what I've
received?
I love the Apostle Paul.
He says what do you have thatyou've not received?
Just give it away.
Give it away, you know.
So yeah, all right, my littletalk about discipleship done.
Churches just naturally kind ofhappen.

(48:45):
But we got to be focused onmaking disciples, multiplying
disciples.
Say more there, mark, laura,yeah.

Speaker 3 (48:52):
Somebody said if you start out to make a church, to
start a church, you may or maynot make disciples.
If you start off to makedisciples, the church is going
to be born.
But in some ways I think alsoit's kind of a false dichotomy.
Like you always have to haveboth Disciples of Jesus need a
place to be able to gather andreceive the gifts of Jesus and
respond in prayer and praise.

(49:12):
That's Luther.
If we are making disciples andnot connecting to them to a
church, we're creating spiritualorphans.
We're not going to do that.
Conversely, if we're creating achurch but not making disciples
, then we have, you know, thelatest, greatest iteration of a
country club that may or may notactually fulfill the mission
and the great commission ofJesus.
So I think we have to have both.

(49:33):
They work hand in hand.
And again to throw back toTimothy Keller, church planting
with a discipleship focus is oneof the best tools in our tool
belt right now in the Americancontext in order to fulfill the
Great Commission.
So I think we do need to beabout both.
We do need to be about plantingchurches that aren't just
reaching the Lutherans thatmoved into the neighborhood, but

(49:55):
are actually seeking to connectdisconnected people to Jesus,
and that's our heartbeat, that'sI know your heartbeat, I think
that's truly that's.
That's the heartbeat of theLCMS.
If I'm really honest, I thinkour desire as a church body is
to see more people know Jesusand become a part of his kingdom
, and I want that.
If I had a prayer for ourchurch body, it would be that

(50:17):
that becomes a thing that werally around and that unites us
to get back on to that gift thatJesus has given to us that
needs to be shared, that wecan't keep to ourselves.
You know, jeremiah, it's firein our bones.
We can't hold on to this.
It's going to burst out.

Speaker 2 (50:31):
I think our call to action for anyone listening
because I imagine it's ministryleaders and lay people who are
involved in their churches,ministry leaders and lay people
who are involved in theirchurches it's not to go out and
plant a church.
That sounds crazy to say thatright.
My call to action would be meetwith another ministry leader
and pray for the disconnectedpeople in your backyard.

(50:51):
Just pray for them, becausethat's how this thing called
Harvest Partnership started.
We call it a spirit-ledmultiplication, because nobody
got together and was like let'screate a five-year plan for
planting churches.
It's what's happening, but it'skind of like the dichotomy of
you know, are we buildingchurches or making disciples?
If we all committed to prayingfor the disconnected people

(51:14):
around us, god is going to workthrough that, because that's
what he wants.
That's his heart.
So we just want to.
We want to fit our hearts tohis and I truly believe that his
heart is to bring everyone intoa knowledge of our savior Jesus
.

Speaker 1 (51:27):
You two are amazing.
This has been so much fun.
You're a gift to the body ofChrist, obviously to the
Lutheran Church Missouri Synod.
We need more couples like youand single people, young and old
, ready to go, say here am ISend me.
If people want to connect withyou, mark and Laura, how can
they do so?

Speaker 3 (51:45):
Two places.
Check outharvestpartnershipchurch Shares
some of the DNA of HarvestPartnership, and then you'll
hear the things that we havegoing on lazarshurchcom.

Speaker 1 (51:52):
Hey, this is so good.
This is the Tim Allman Podcast.
We have a weekly Wednesdayconversation with leaders within
and outside of the LCMS, linedup with a posture of humility,
just looking to learn.
The world is beautiful.
Jesus is on the move and by HisSpirit's power we get to
partner with Him to reach morepeople with the gospel.
It's a good day.
Go make it a great day.

(52:13):
Thanks so much, mark and Laura.

Speaker 2 (52:14):
Thank you.