April 30, 2025 • 50 mins
What grounds us when everything seems to be in constant flux? Dr. John Nordling, Professor of Exegetical Theology at Concordia Theological Seminary in Fort Wayne, brings refreshing clarity to this question through his unique lens as both a classicist and Lutheran theologian.
*Disclaimer* - this episode was recorded prior to the Apology Video by Pastor Tim which you can find here
• Understanding the Word of God and Lutheran Confessions as our constant "pole star" amid cultural changes
• The importance of viewing current challenges through the lens of eternity
• How classical education provides deep insights into human nature that complement biblical understanding
• The critical value of learning biblical Greek for pastors to properly handle Scripture
• Making Greek instruction active rather than passive through composition exercises and daily quizzing
• Why pastors should be "professorial" and professors should be "pastoral" in their approaches
• The Christ hymn of Philippians 2 as the ultimate model of humility and service
• Exploring Jesus's often-overlooked sense of humor and wit in the Gospels
• The exciting growth of classical Lutheran education through organizations like CCLE
• Growing opportunities for international Lutheran theological education, particularly in Africa
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
You know, people come and go, christians rise and
fall, nations do, elections do.
But finally, you know, ourcommitment is to the Word of God
and to the Lutheran Confession.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Welcome to the Tim Wellman Podcast.
It's a beautiful day to bealive.
I pray you're resting in yourbaptismal identity as Jesus
calls you up to be filled by him.
He makes us his dwelling place,by his spirit, and then calls
us to be shaped by his word andto carry that word out into the
world.
Today I get to hang out withReverend Dr John Nordling and
(00:38):
let me tell you a little bitabout John.
He is at Concordia TheologicalSeminary in Fort Wayne.
He's been a faculty memberthere since 2006.
He serves as a professor ofexegetical theology.
He gets to teach many, manywhat he calls sons in the faith.
I love that Greek and love forlove for then, not just Greek
but the classics in general.
(00:58):
He has a lot of experience inLutheranism and the classics.
He hosts a biennial conferencefor pastors and classicists and
educators to consider howclassical language have
influenced Lutheranism in thepast and how Greek and Latin are
poised to enrich the church,academy and culture into the
future.
He's written for the ConcordiaCommentary Series for CPH he is
(01:19):
currently finishing up.
He wrote Philemon, which I love.
He's currently figuringfinishing up his commentary on
Philippians and man.
I'm excited to have that.
He's also written on religionand resistance in early Judaism,
greek readings in FirstMaccabees and Josephus.
That's fascinating.
And for the Concordia PeerReview series he's done a number
(01:42):
of academic articles on thePauline epistles, slavery and
other social issues.
He's been married to hiswonderful wife, sarah Ann, since
19.
You're celebrating 40 years ofmarriage there, john.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Can't believe it 1985 .
Speaker 2 (01:58):
It does go fast.
I'm at 20 years with my bride,Alexis.
So how are you doing today,John?
What a joy to be with you.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Yeah, very good, I guess I didn't realize that
we're on now.
We were talking earlier.
I thought we were on.
So anyway, hello out there.
Glad to be on.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Now we're really on.
No, we were just hanging out.
Sorry for not being more clear,so let's start here.
As you look, we're going tostart like 30,000 feet from your
perspective as an exegete inthe Lutheran Church, missouri
Synod, what do you think are thegreatest cultural changes that
have impacted the church in thepast 20 years, and how has this
shaped the role of pastor andministry in our local context?
(02:38):
Any thoughts there, just to getus going, dr Nordling.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Well, I mean there are a lot of changes just to get
us going, dr Nordling.
Well, I mean there are a lot ofchanges.
There's a lot of, you know,like just how we're able to do
this interview.
You know I mean with technology, but I still, you know I'm a
classicist, I've trained as aclassicist, I went to the
(03:03):
seminary and New Testament iswhat I teach.
So I guess you know I went to StLouis also, like you, tim, and
one of my former favoriteprofessors there was Dr Nagel,
and he would always talk aboutinspecchiae eternitatis, you
know, from the perspective ofeternity, and so you know of
eternity.
And so you know, people comeand go, christians rise and fall
(03:27):
, nations do, elections do, butfinally, you know, our
commitment is to the Word of Godand to the Lutheran confessions
.
I mean that's our pole star, so, and then each of us are given
a vocation where we serve otherswith the gifts that God has
(03:47):
given us.
So you know, one of the thingsthat people used to say when I
was in graduate school atWisconsin, doing my PhD there,
was the more things change, themore they stay the same.
More things change, the morethey stay the same.
You know, I mean, I got to teachclassical mythology and the
(04:09):
myths are a very profound viewof reality, apart from Christ.
Okay, christ and the gospel arenot part of that purview, but
still they know human nature andpeople have known it for
millennia.
Okay, we don't know how old,how, how far back in time these
myths go, um, but they've beenaround before the time of
(04:34):
writing.
Okay, so, and the Bible is likethat too, and um, uh, so um,
we're here and and we're uhcalled by the gospel to faith.
Uh, so, um, we're here and andwe're uh called by the gospel to
faith.
Uh, the, the center of aLutheran congregation is the
word and sacrament where it'spresented publicly, uh to the
(04:55):
believers and then through them,to the world.
So I guess that's how I look atit.
So you know whether it's 20years I've been.
I've been here at the seminarynow for, I think, 18 years,
starting my 19th year, soroughly 20 years, but I haven't
really seen that many changes.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Yeah, no, I think it's good, I think that's a
right perspective.
It's a humbling perspective.
You know, I think a lot oftimes we in the West you can
look at individualism,consumerism, you can look at
technology.
Sometimes I think we're moreprone to think we're super
unique.
You know, like this is, this issuch an extraordinary,
(05:34):
unprecedented right I meanthat's a word that got used a
lot in terms of, maybe, theCOVID debacle like there's been
famines and plagues andpestilence and stuff all the way
down, like wars, rumors of wars, all that kind of it just is
what it is in a fallen, brokenworld.
And so we want to have a rightperspective of our time, teach
us to number our days Right andand but then to recognize we are
(05:56):
held by, supported, mobilized,equipped for ministry in our
respective vocations by the Godwho is above time, which kind of
blows our mind right.
That just, I think God kind oflooks down at us.
This is one of the things I'vebeen wrestling with, like what
is God's posture toward us,right, dr Nordlien?
Is it one of anger?
I think it's one of fatherlylove.
(06:17):
You know, I look at my kidstrying to make it, and my son
this morning made a bad choice.
He was out late last night at atrack meet, you know, and so
this morning he made the choicewhich will have consequences for
to sleep in, you know, and missfirst period.
We had a little conversationabout work ethic, you know, as
he was getting going.
Sometimes we got to do thingsand show up when we don't feel
(06:38):
like showing up and probably,but the tone of it's like it's
love, son, god's got good thingsfor you.
I want my law.
The law is here to help you notstumble too, but I think the
posture of our heavenly fathertoward us, in the face of Jesus,
is one of love and care, andhe's not angry.
Anything more to say about theposture of God toward us as
(06:59):
we're just trying to make itthrough the world.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Well, this God, who is above time, entered space and
time in our Lord and Savior,jesus Christ, and of course that
has all of the implications.
I mean the understanding of theLord's Supper, for example, in
the Lutheran sense that God usesbread and wine to convey the
(07:25):
body and blood of Christ.
So it's both bread and wine andbody and blood of Christ.
It's not one or the other, theway Roman Catholicism or the
Reformed teach, and it has aperspective on who we are.
Also, my baptism into Christ,where I die and rise with Jesus.
(07:46):
I was baptized before I evenremember, you know, but I've
always in a sense been in thechurch and, god willing, always
will be so.
And I'm old enough.
I'm almost 68 years old now.
I mean I'm not a spring chicken.
I'm old enough.
I'm almost 68 years old now.
(08:06):
I mean I'm not a spring chicken.
But I've made some mistakes butby God's grace, have landed
very well.
You know, the seminary here is agreat place for me personally
and my wife is not as blessed asI am, but she's with me, as
blessed as I am, but she's withme, and it's just such a
(08:28):
privilege to teach young peoplestudying for the Office of the
Ministry and Deaconess studentstoo.
They have an important role inour world.
You know who am I?
I mean, sometimes I feel theonly thing I can really give
them is don't do what I did.
Do as I say, not as I do.
Because you know, the thingsthat drew me to seminary were
(08:52):
not I didn't really want to be apastor, I wanted to be a
professor.
I mean I realized that long agobefore I went to seminary and I
love theology and all of that.
But I mean I was just quitetaken by all of the things that
pastors are entitled to learn,you know, starting with Greek
(09:13):
and theology.
And I was good at it, you know.
I mean I learned and I hadgreat professors at St Louis
when I went through.
Horace Hummel was my favoriteprofessor.
He's probably before your time.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
He was around as a retired prof kind of an adjunct.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
He taught a few courses.
I never had him.
Had him though.
Yeah, yeah, well, he, he was avery he was a very interesting
fellow.
Yeah, tell me about him.
He had foibles and and he was.
We liked to imitate him, and hewas also a very tough professor
.
A lot of my fellow studentsdidn't like him.
You always paid a price whenyou had a Hummel course.
(09:56):
The best class, best grade Iever got from him was a B, you
know, and I worked my butt off,but he designed 200 pages of
reading per night and and and heand you know he was, he was
just kind of really tough withstudents.
Another professor that I didn'tlike when I graduated but came
(10:18):
to like better was BillSchmelder.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Okay, no that he's definitely before my time.
Tell me yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
From whom I learned law, gospel, polarities, and he
seemed to think it was hisbusiness to take us down a notch
.
So the tough professors.
And then Nagel, of course, wasa great professor too.
He was much more benign, youknow.
He loved students.
You would go to his office andhe would just talk and make you
(10:44):
were like the center of theuniverse when you were in his
presence.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
So each of them.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
The St Louis Seminary that I was at was a great
blessing for me.
I feel I got a great educationthere and now I'm very much a
Fort Wayner because I've been atFort Wayne since 2006.
You know, I mean, david Scareis just a tremendous theologian
(11:10):
and I love his wit and hisacerbicness and irony.
You know, he embodies Jesus ina way, because Jesus was that
way.
Jesus had a sharp wit and youcould never, you know, back him
into a corner.
So hey, I'm curious.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
What was I talking about?
Go ahead, well, I'll follow up.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
I want to follow up, Dr Norley.
I'm losing my train of thought.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Anyway, I'll jog it.
Here we go.
So what was it about thegeneration, let's say 60s, 70s,
80s?
You mentioned these professors.
Yeah, get behind the curtain alittle bit, because I had Dr
Block taught me Greek atConcordia University in Nebraska
(11:58):
.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
Yeah, and this goes back.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
I was vickering there when he came Wow, okay, okay,
so that's over, overcomer.
I mean he was tough, like therewas no, like skirting around
responsibility, and I mean thememory work was intense, like I
don't know that they make themand maybe there's good reason
(12:22):
why, but in that season it wasthe discipline in the academic
rigor.
Maybe there's something in ourculture today and I'm not saying
we should just like willy nilly, don't like if you're a
professor, please don't be ajerk.
Right, there's a lot, there's aline, but there is a sense of
calling upward by highexpectation that maybe,
(12:43):
unfortunately today the bar youcould say is is lowered in some
context and uh, so yeah, any anythoughts as to why that may be.
And professors like dr blockare hard to come by today yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
So when I went through, uh, when I was in high
school, that's when the bigsynodical civil war happened,
right right, and I grew up inOregon, so the Northwest
District was kind of on theSemenex end of things, but I had
a great pastor, pastorStockkamp.
He tried to educate thecongregation in what was going
(13:17):
on.
He was very much a stickler formemorizing the catechism and
all of that.
But a lot of the other churchesin that area were not that way.
So anyway, and then I went toConcordia, portland and
Valparaiso and when I was atValparaiso I was very much into
the, I thought, like a Seminexperson thought, and because of
(13:41):
my mother I decided to go to StLouis rather than to another
seminary like Seminex.
And so when I was at St Louis Ihad a lot of kind of unlearning
to do and the first year wastough, but I really appreciated
Hummel and Nagel and people likethat and really, and so I made
(14:05):
my choice you know, I made mybed to be in Missouri and I've
been, haven't looked back.
I mean, I've been very thankfulfor it and I've tried to beat
the old liberals at their owngame because they were
tremendous historical criticalpeople.
So you know, the way is to readthe Bible historically but not
(14:25):
yield to historical criticism,whether we call it historical
grammatic or whatever, but usethe science and look at the
Bible historically.
That's why I got a degree inclassics, because it was too
dangerous to get one in OldTestament or even a New
Testament, I figured.
So I decided to go outside thecanon.
(14:46):
So I mean, that's basicallywhere I was coming from at the
time and so St Louis reallyhelped me at that time to go on
in grad school and classics andbecome a pastor in Chicago.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Could you educate us, Dr Nerdling, on what it means
to be a classicist?
That may be, for some of ourlisteners that's something that
is, that's probably a word theydon't always come across in
their everyday.
So what does it mean to be aclassicist?
And what does it mean then, inturn, to study the scriptures
using the classics?
You said you came to thescriptures through the classics
rather than through traditionalOld Testament, New Testament,
(15:25):
kind of exegesis.
So just say more there.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Yeah, there's not too many of us left.
I mean, when I went through StLouis there were four professors
that had degrees, phds inclassics.
Now I think I'm the only.
No, that's not true.
John Bruss, president Bruss,he's a PhD in classics.
So there are a few of us.
But it means to study Greek andLatin, you know, and have
(15:51):
reading courses and read thelanguages in the original
language and work up to it.
And for the PhD I taught Latin.
I taught a lot of Latin alreadyas a grad student, and then
classical mythology.
So I mean that gave me a goodbackground for the scripture.
(16:20):
So with Philemon, when I didPhilemon, I was able to get into
, you know, extra biblicalsources like Cicero and look at
papyri and inscriptions andthings like that.
You know, and maybe even nottoo many pastors are that
interested in it, but I reallyam.
And it makes it.
You know, christ entered spaceand time.
(16:43):
You know I mean, otherwise it'sjust a shot in the dark, so so.
So when I'm working on a text,I have to read the Greek.
I have to.
I mean, it's like Samson andhis long hair.
If you cut off Samson's hair,he's weak If I don't look at a
(17:03):
text in the Greek original.
You know the New Testament.
I have nothing to offer becausethe translation can go in so
many different ways.
You have to know the text andyou have to know what.
Well, to be a pastor, in myhumble opinion, okay, you need
to be able to use it when youtake a call and enter the
(17:25):
ministry and you need tocontinue to work with it.
I mean, it's not an option thisis why you're being paid by
your congregation is to readGreek deeply, in my opinion.
Okay, not everybody agrees withthat, but that's where I'm
coming from.
Not everybody agrees with that,but that's where I'm coming
from, and not only is it aprivilege to do it, but it's an
(17:48):
obligation, because that willaffect the type of preaching and
teaching that you do.
You have to be rewired when youtake Greek.
Okay, it's a laborious process,it takes time.
We do it in 10 weeks, so I quizthose guys four days out of
(18:08):
five.
It's not an easy class, butthey end up loving it because I
make it fun.
We do singing, I have a cartoon, we also do composition, where
we go from English into Greek,because I think one of the
problems of our Missouri Synodhas been learning Greek too
(18:29):
passively.
You need to do it actively, andeven the students that are
having trouble with Greek canlearn that way.
I mean, if they don't do thecomposition sentence, they're
very mad because I didn't callon them and they were prepared.
So there has to be a kind of acompetition.
All right, so what do they say?
(18:51):
Iron, sharpens iron or whateveryou know.
So, and that gets them readyfor then doing theology.
I mean, it's about producingpastors who are theologians.
So pastors, in my opinion,should be professorial and
professors at the seminaryshould be pastoral.
(19:14):
Okay, both of them cometogether and even if you're a
parish pastor, you need to be atheologian.
You need to be able todemonstrate your study and
learning theology at a highlevel and not watering it down,
because if you water it down,you will change the doctrine of
(19:37):
the church.
That's what's at stake.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
No, I 100% agree.
Tell me your perspective ontools like Logos and other tools
that are being used right now.
When I entered in, I got all myHebrew syntax books, my concise
Hebrew and Aramaic lexicon ofthe old time.
(20:00):
I mean, I'm looking at thosebooks right now and a lot of
them are not out of print per se, but a lot of students are
using logos today.
So what are your thoughts there?
Speaker 1 (20:12):
Yeah, well, you got to realize you're dealing with a
Luddite.
The Roman poet Horace said Odiapparatus persicos I hate
Persian apparatus.
So I don't know how to use thewhiz-bang tools.
And I go to scholarlyconferences and some of them
have tried to hook me and drawme in.
(20:33):
The two tools that I use, evenwriting the commentary, is
Moulton and Geaton's Concordanceof the Greek Testament okay for
parallel passages andrelationships within, like a
gospel.
And then the other one that'sabsolutely indispensable is BDAG
, bauer, danker, arndt, gingrich.
(20:54):
Those two tools are very goodand that's how I try to get my
students to use.
Now, of course it's good to readcommentaries, but they don't
have time to read a ton ofcommentaries.
They should just read theConcordia commentary.
But then I try to get them todo their own work, their own
fresh exegetical work, and somestudents do it and a lot of them
(21:17):
don't.
I mean, now I am a toughprofessor, the circle has turned
full, so, but still I'm able towork with a lot of them.
And you know I tell thestudents, no professor does it
(21:40):
exactly the same way.
So try to learn from what Ibring and hopefully that will be
balanced out by what anotherprofessor brings.
Okay, and probably that's how itis for pastors as well.
But if you can get them workingwith the text, if you can get
them, you know, like our NewTestament Greek readings, if
they're able to have a winkleand meet weekly with other
(22:02):
pastors in the area over a Greektext, spend the first hour just
on the text itself and then geta cup of coffee or a donut,
then the second hour work on howwe're going to develop this
homiletically.
Okay, that would be a morningwell spent, in my opinion.
(22:23):
And there are, you know,unfortunately, some pastors now
that don't really know Greekvery well, or if they've even
studied it, like the SMP peopleyou know.
So what are we going to do withthem?
Well, if they meet together asa group over the text, that will
help them and maybe get theminterested in wanting to study
(22:47):
Greek from someone like me.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
OK, so toward that end, do you do you have, are
your classes like online?
If someone just wanted toengage with you, that's out in
the field like online.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
if someone just wanted to engage with you,
that's out in the field they are.
But, tim, here I'm going topart company with something I've
heard you say many times inother podcasts.
I've watched you for they cantake me.
I have an online Greek coursebut they never learn it as well
because they don't do thecomposition.
And plus, the seminary is justsuch a great place.
It's the center of a student'slife for a time.
(23:23):
And the chapel you know theworship in our chapel is the
best in the entire synod, in myhumble opinion, you know.
It's just so wonderful, it's sowell done and it equips a young
man to go forth and do likewisewhen he becomes a pastor.
(23:47):
So, yeah, I mean, I've thought,and you've been one of the
things a common recurring themein the podcast I've watched with
you is what can we do to getmore people?
As I've watched with you is iswhat can we do to get more
people, more produce, morepastors?
Maybe what we could do is havethe Greek class and have it
(24:08):
remotely done, where people wereconnected remotely.
It would be a lot more work forme, but it could probably be
done that way, you know, so thatthey at least get that
beginning initial class and getthem into the kind of the
exegetical sequence.
Yeah, but still, there'snothing like being on this
campus and also St Louis.
These are, these are.
(24:29):
This is hallowed ground.
You know it's important whenyou come and you want to make
the most of your time.
That's how I see it, so sure.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
And, would you say, the local church where Word and
Sacrament takes place?
That's also hallowed ground too, right, dr Nordling?
Of course, yeah right.
So there's no competition.
I ask that in all honestybecause it's I think it's both,
and right now, and too often Ithink we're going down a path
where it's kind of competitiveeither or and that's certainly
(24:58):
not the overall long rangeconversation I'd like to have I
want my son to go to one of ourseminaries if the Lord calls him
into ministry.
I want him to be in residential.
I think it is and some in thecircles that I run may take
issue with me I think it is thebest way to do it.
Now, I don't think it's theonly way to do it, understanding
(25:18):
the times in which we live, butI think it is the best.
And I think, if we can, if wecan develop more of a, of a
partnership to to reach people,to say, hey, there's a way for
the, the second career guy, toget trained, and I think I think
we should raise the bar on onsmp.
That's, that's my humble,humble opinion.
Um, and and I said to to lookdown on our.
(25:42):
That's not just looking downupon those that have gone
through that program, but, as Iwas talking with uh, both
seminary presidents a couple ofweeks ago, it's, it's not.
It's not a full MDiv right it's, it's maybe a third to a half
and and the languages, I think,being one of the opportunities
to elevate that learning.
(26:03):
And here's a shout out too, Ithink if we offer it connected
to the seminaries, if it's madeaccessible, a lot of our guys,
whether they've got SMP orthey're exploring future
pastoral ministry, they wouldlove to take it.
So, yeah, I think it's not a,not an either, or and I think
(26:24):
you know I am kind of one voiceand face in this whole
conversation, that I think and Ireally appreciate you taking
the time to be with me todaythat sometimes folks may think I
have compromising intentionsregarding formation.
Nothing could be further fromthe truth.
I would just like more Aheightened recognition of there
(26:47):
are other ways to do it, whichmeans we don't have to
compromise.
I think we should usetechnology for bivocational and
co-vocational leaders.
I've talked a lot about that,but I think that could boost our
seminary in-person programs.
So yeah, any thoughts there, drNordling?
Speaker 1 (27:03):
Well, yeah, I know that some of my favorite
students are SMP guys that havejust sensed that they need the
Greek, you know.
So they come and they kind ofremind me of the 10 lepers.
Nine of them didn't come backto thank Jesus, but one of them
did, you know, and that's that'show I get their, their extreme
(27:27):
gratitude.
And I think the SMP, I mean OK,I mean you can't, the genie is
out of the bottle, right?
I mean you can't do away withInternet technology.
It's here to stay, and so howcan you use it optimally?
I mean, I think that's thequestion.
And I think too that in itscurrent form, smp is kind of
(27:54):
modular.
So you get them started andmaybe their ordination is a
little too early, but they'reordained and they're working as
pastors in their currentsituation.
But then it's set up so thatlater they can take more and
build on what they're learning.
And you know what?
That's how it is for everypastor, even those that are very
(28:15):
well prepared.
I mean it's all about findingyour voice in the pulpit.
Okay, that God gives you,finding your voice there and
being comfortable and giving outthe gifts.
So the MDiv is not somethingthat we're supposed to all be
impressed with, but it's a giftto help others.
So is the PhD in classics.
(28:36):
The whole point is to helpothers, to help the church and
to get people who wouldn't knowGreek or Latin to just see how
cool and wonderful it is.
So I've given my life to it andI've put my wife through a lot
of heck, you know, to get me tothe training I've had.
But now I'm, in a way, god hasallowed me to give some of it
(28:58):
back.
You know so, and that's how itis for any Christian we die to
the self and live to Christ, ourLord.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Well, let's just hang .
I hear you talking aroundhumility and maybe we'll
piggyback this into Philippians,right, the higher you go, the
more you should realize how muchyou don't know.
And the way of Jesus is thedownward trajectory, right, it's
the upside down nature of thekingdom.
And I think sometimes information, right, the worst
(29:27):
thing that could happen is a guygets done with his studies and
says I pretty much have figuredout everything as it relates to
theology and ministry.
And it's like no, no, no, it's alifetime of learning.
There's always otherdisciplines and I think if the
pastor maintains that curious,humble heart like I, know a fair
amount about these things likethat's great.
My grandpa, who was a pastor,Dr Nordling, super old school.
(29:50):
I remember early on he saiddon't get the big head, Tim.
I was like 16, 17 or something,you know.
Did you give yourself thesegifts?
No, They've been given by theGod of the universe for you to
steward, but they're not yours,they're, they're his.
So maintain a humble posture.
Any, any comments aroundhumility, and I mean the.
The best humble chapter I wouldsay in all the epistles is
Philippians, chapter two.
So anything more.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Yeah, well, Christ him, and it happens.
That's what I'm working onright now the.
I'm working on right now thespring.
I'm working on the Christ hymn.
That's the last major part ofthe commentary I have to do.
I've done that last because Ifelt I needed to know what the
rest of the letter says.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
So what do you learn?
Can you get us behind?
Yeah, tell us about it.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
Well, I mean, as every Christian knows, the
Christ hymn is divided into theinundation or the ex-inundation
of jesus, his downward descentand then his exaltation in verse
nine.
You know, uh, the name which isabove every name, that at the
name of jesus, and etc.
So, um, um, but uh, jesus is,you know, is he, is it ethical
(31:00):
or is it charismatic?
That's, there's a big debateabout that.
In what sense is you know?
Paul begins in chapter 2, verse5, have this mind among you,
which is yours in Christ Jesus.
So I think the plain sense isthat he's sending, setting Jesus
out as an example for us.
(31:20):
But of course we're not savedby keeping the code, you know.
We're saved by grace, throughfaith for all of us.
But then not only Jesus ispresented that way, but so is
Timothy, so is Epaphroditus, sois Paul in chapter three, so are
the other named Christians inchapter 4.
(31:44):
Uodius, syntyche, clement andthe noble Yokefellow, whoever he
is.
So it's all paradigmatic.
And God puts us in a place tobe fed by the spirit around word
and sacrament, but also to helpothers.
You know, to help others, andthat's why I'm glad you invited
(32:06):
me to be on your show, because Ithink a lot of your people
listening to me haven't heard ofme.
You're not part of the FortWayne bubble, okay, but I'm glad
that I have an opportunity toyou know, to vent my spleen a
little bit.
And you know, because I wastrained at St Louis.
(32:29):
I mean, like you, I'm a StLouis alumnus, but here I am
teaching at Fort Wayne andloving Fort Wayne.
So you know, it's what do theysay Wherever God puts you in the
wilderness, make it into theGarden of Eden, basically, amen.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
Well, preachers love the Kingsmen and we're partners.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
That's because you always beat us.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
Well, we almost lost one year.
I don't know if you know this,dr Earl.
This would have been in 2004,.
So just five or so just beforeyou got there, there was gosh
what's his name?
He's actually teaching atConcordia Seminary.
People are listening.
Yeah yeah, yeah, I know, hewent to college Lane.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Jason Lane, jason Lane, there we go.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
And Jason was very good, yeah, and we only had I
think we had a few guys heard oraway or something we took like
six or seven guys to a gameagainst the Kingsmen and Jason
was a fourth year at that time.
I was a first year.
I was a first year.
(33:44):
I was playing with pastor namedJeff Claytor I don't know if
you know that name and I don'tthink Pete Nafsker, he's a
prophet.
The seminary in St Louis wasthere, but anyhow, we were a
little undermanned and I fouleda guy with five seconds to go or
something like that.
And we're on.
The preachers were up one andhe and he that God bless him.
He missed both free throws.
Wow, we barely won.
I don't know if the Kingsmenhave won since then.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
Yeah, they did.
Three years ago they beat StLouis here on our turf.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
I'm sure that was very exciting.
I go back for an alumni gameevery.
The Peterson Fieldhouse justhad its 75th anniversary.
Yes, I saw that.
Yeah, and I I played just thislast week and, uh, it I don't
know how many more years Iactually a funny, funny thing
and there's a video of it whichI've not posted, anything like
that.
I, I got the ball, the game wastied and I I hit it.
(34:33):
I made a three with like 10seconds to go and the crowd, so
the alumni actually beat we.
They didn't play all of theirbest players, to be honest,
because we were all in our 40sand 50s.
The Hainer brothers, which shoutout to Mark Hainer he loves
Greek and Hebrew, he is anexegete of, he's a fantastic
pastor, all of them, all of themare.
(34:53):
But anyhow, it's fun and Ithink that kind of the sense of
competition I like I can competetoward Jesus.
I like competition is notnecessarily bad, it's when it
leads toward division.
I can call you my brother andlike I want to.
I was just interviewing a young, a young teacher.
She's 25.
(35:13):
She goes.
I am in line with a whole hostof teachers, educators,
administrators, and she goes andI want to be the best.
You know, there's this likegodly sense of kind of drive to
use our gifts well.
It can cross a line, I guess,and move toward pride or
division, but I think that thatcall to offer our best in your
(35:34):
line, especially connected tothe word of God, which is the
best, like that's a, that's aholy, holy thing.
Any, any comments, though, tokind of the competitive nature
of, of church leaders?
Speaker 1 (35:44):
Well, yeah, I mean we , we compete.
I mean I'm thinking of Paul inchapter three.
I think Paul has a sense ofhumor in a way.
He he presents himself as anexample.
You know, he's a Pharisee ofPharisees, circumcised on the
eighth day, all of this.
But then he gives it all up,you know, and it's like he's
(36:12):
saying to get ahead in thekingdom you have to, you have to
die to yourself.
Really, that's what it's allabout and there's kind of a
twinkle in his eye.
There's kind of vestiges ofPauline humor and people.
You know, that's one of theproblems with the New Testament
is people take Jesus and Paul soseriously.
But actually Jesus was reallyfunny, you know.
(36:34):
I mean, this is why he was sopopular with the crowds, because
he had this keen wit.
He was always up against thePharisees who really were
pompous jerks.
He was always putting them intheir place.
How he did it is so creative.
But we don't look at it thatway.
We always look at him as Lordand Savior and of course he is
(36:56):
that Lord and Savior and ofcourse he is that.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
You know, I mean his humor is sometimes worth
expounding upon.
I think, yes, well, we'recoming down the homestretch here
.
Dr Nordling, let's hang withJesus and the joy of Jesus.
One of the funniest stories.
I'd love to hear your top one ortwo funny Jesus stories the
baptism of John.
Where did it come from?
Right, right, jesus asked.
You know?
Well, if you can't, you knowthey're.
They're, they're wrestling, thePharisees are wrestling.
(37:27):
Well, if you can't tell me that, then I'm not going to.
You know, I'm not going to tellyou this.
I mean, he is so, um, ironic,you know he's, he's just so kind
, but he just frustrates theheck out of the Pharisees.
You're exactly right, theydon't have a sense of humor.
You know, they don't know thejoy of like.
Somehow the joy of the delightof the Father has left them and
(37:50):
I think there's humor all over.
I think when Peter hasbreakfast on the beach with
Jesus I don't know if it's humorI see Jesus like smiling as
they're like.
You know, no one says anything.
They knew it was the Lord.
You remember this.
And then, Jesus centers in doyou love me?
You know, yeah, you know, okay,here's, here's your call.
(38:10):
I think there's.
Jesus is so delightful Um, Idon't know if that's an
adjective you normally use.
He delights over us and then hedelights when we find joy in
the world when we laugh together.
So funny stories from Jesus.
Top two or three, Dr Nordling.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
Well, I think you know more about that than me,
because you're preaching everyweek and I don't.
I mean, I preach quiteirregularly, I'm a professor, so
I teach, and I'm not eventeaching right now, I'm just
writing.
But for example, he says youknow, can you get grapes from
(38:49):
thorns?
You know that's.
You know stuff like that.
Do birds or the lilies considerthe lilies of the field, how
they never toil nor spin.
Not even Solomon is arrayed inall his glory as one of these.
Stuff like that.
That would have been quitehumorous the first time they
(39:12):
were heard and that's why theywere recorded.
You know, in Matthew's gospeland I believe you know, david
Scare believes in the earlydating of Matthew and I
basically do too.
But it's the foundation uponwhich the other three, two
synoptic gospels depend and eventhe rest of the New Testament.
(39:34):
So when Paul wrote Philippians,he may have had Matthew's
gospel as one of the texts, inaddition to, of course, all of
the Septuagintal Old Testamentreadings as well.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
Let's just stay with Matthew for a second.
What is the early date forMatthew that you—.
Speaker 1 (39:56):
Oh gosh, I don't know if I— it would be.
I think that I might get thiswrong.
I think David Scare would argueearly 40s, 40s, okay.
Speaker 2 (40:06):
Yeah, I think Within a decade or so.
Speaker 1 (40:09):
Yeah, but Luke is going to be quite a bit later.
That would be at the end of the50s.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
Oh, end of the 50s, okay.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
Coinciding with the three missionary journeys of
Paul that are depicted in Acts.
And then we would date Marklater still, you know, and
John's the latest Mark inpriority.
So Mark coincides, I believe,with the great fire of Rome,
which is 64 AD, as recorded byTacitus.
(40:40):
And then you have John.
You just asked about John.
Well, bill Weinreich, who'swriting the commentary on John,
thinks that the Johannine Gospelis early, so he parts with
David Scare on that issue.
But I guess I, like most people, think that John is later.
Sure, you know, at the end ofthe first century.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
Yeah, why does he say it's early?
I'd be curious.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
I don't know.
I should know that better.
But he's got his reasons.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
Well, it's definitely distinct, yeah it is I mean the
upper room discourse one of myfavorite pieces of scripture,
right?
Yeah, I'm just.
I'm just throwing out ahypothesis.
Maybe because he's so clearwith the discourse, he's not
always telling a story Like John13 through 17,.
This is one of the longersections of Jesus talking in all
(41:32):
of the Gospels, so maybe that'sone reason it could be earlier.
But the Chosen you know wedon't espouse everything on the
Chosen, right?
It's extra biblical, the show.
Have you watched any of that?
Speaker 1 (41:45):
no, I haven't.
What is the chosen?
Speaker 2 (41:48):
oh, it's just a, a fascinating story of the life of
jesus in long, in long form.
You know, uh, they, they willhave other conversations.
They're trying to make jesus,he's funny in it, he's
accessible, they're to the story.
But then there's otherconversations that take place.
So think of like a miniseries,adding, adding things that took
(42:10):
place that we don't know, kindof behind the scenes.
So some exegetes are like Idon't know that.
You can, you should, you shoulddo that necessarily, but you
know it's a.
The reason I bring it up is theyhave John connected to Mary as
she's helping him.
Now, I don't know where theyget this.
I guess this is here's yourmother.
(42:31):
You know like they had a closerrelationship with Jesus, jesus,
mother Mary moving forward,that maybe she was there helping
him.
Remember some of the, some ofthe details.
Don't don't know exactly ifthat's accurate or not.
Anyhow, this has been fun.
I've about got to get toanother meeting.
Let's close with this questionwhat are your top two or three
(42:52):
hopes for confessionalLutheranism, especially in the
LCMS, in the coming years, drNordling?
Speaker 1 (42:57):
Well, I hope that selfishly, that what I bring to
the table will bear fruit.
You know that more pastors willlearn Greek well, not fewer.
Because I think it's veryimportant for the ministry that
goes on in our secular society,which is so turned against the
(43:18):
Lord, that congregations canbecome bright places where
Christ is met.
I think that the church of the21st century is kind of like the
church of the first century.
You know, right now we have aCaesar in power that many
Missouri Synod people likeDonald Trump, but that can very
(43:42):
quickly change.
Like Donald Trump, but that canvery quickly change.
And no, you know, trust not inprinces.
They are, but mortal.
You know, as the hymn says, sothat the congregations will do
well.
You know missions are goingpretty well.
I've been going to Africa.
I've been 14 times to SouthAfrica, oh wow.
(44:02):
I've been going to Africa.
I've been 14 times to SouthAfrica, oh wow.
And there's a great hunger inAfrica right now for Fort Wayne
professors and seminaryprofessors.
I've been to Tanzania and alsoKenya and Nigeria four times.
So you know we're highlyregarded in the world outside of
(44:23):
the Missouri Synod.
You know we're highly regardedin the world outside of the
Missouri Synod and a lot ofLutherans, world Lutherans, want
to learn from us.
Right now it happens that way,so I think that will.
I've been telling the Africanstudents that I teach that maybe
you're going to have to becomemissionaries to America, that I
(44:45):
teach that maybe you're going tohave to become missionaries to
America because in our innercities they're not going to
listen to a white guy like me,but they may listen to you, you
know, and I mean I really dothink that the time is not far
where that could happen, butthat we just be faithful with
the things that the Lord gives.
Something else is this whole CC.
I know you interviewedChristian Preuss, but that is
(45:09):
really a very exciting movementwhere the Consortium of
Classical Lutheran Educators,where they're doing a lot of
homeschooling, teaching Latinand classical subjects, that
movement is really taking off,you know, and it's kind of, in a
way, back to the way thingsused to be, but not really.
I mean, it's very presentfocused and future focused,
(45:32):
because these children aregetting a very good education
and that will take them places.
So, even while classics is kindof dying out because of wokeism
and so forth, latin and Greekare taking off in our circles.
Okay, so I just last summerwent to the CCLE annual meeting
(45:53):
in Seward and I was just amazedthey had 500 people there.
They're bursting at the seamsand a lot of our Fort Wayne
grads are our headmasters orcantors, and I mean that's a
very exciting thing too, thatthe Lord blesses us right with
the type of Christians that weare.
(46:13):
So I guess that's what I'mthinking.
That's wonderful.
Speaker 2 (46:20):
I believe in the next 20 years or so.
I think there is.
I don't know if we'd use theterm revival per se.
Lutherans are skittish onrevival.
It seems kind of out of control, maybe charismatic or something
like that.
But I think there's anawakening of our younger people
(46:40):
toward the basics, toward whatgrounds us, and you mentioned a
loaded word like wokeism.
You know that, finding ouridentity I think it's a lot
around.
Identity, dr Nardoleen, anythingother than who we are as a
baptized child of God and themission that God has called us
to by the power of his spirit,to bring his word that never
(47:02):
changes, that grounds us, thatis above us and beyond us, that
that desire for you could saythe transcendent, made evident
in the person of Jesus Christ,is.
There's an opportunity for usright now, in confessional
mission, missional and I willuse mission like we're on
mission to make Jesus known.
(47:23):
Right, we get to train uppeople in a variety of different
vocations in our local contextto see that the fields are ripe
under the harvest, that thereare people walking in darkness
in need of the light of Jesus,and so, in the midst of
disagreement in our church bodyand I'm, you know, as it relates
to formation.
I guess I'm a voice in thatwider conversation and I'm, you
(47:44):
know, as it relates to formation, I guess I'm a voice in that
wider conversation.
I truly believe that exegeteslike yourself hold the church
together around our commonmission and confession.
During times where we're justtrying to I've used this word a
lot, dr Nordling, it's a liminalspace we're trying we don't
exactly know how to get meaningnot just around workers but
(48:05):
mobilizing all of the priesthood.
We know the church has walkedthrough liminal times, the early
church, like how is this allgoing to go Right?
And within generations thegospel moved forward and became
predominant.
You know the way of Jesusbecame predominant in the
culture and we could see a shifttoward that end.
And I think exegetes likeyourself are huge, keeping us
(48:27):
focused on Jesus and his word.
So thank you so much for thetime.
Dr Nordling, if people want toconnect with you, I know you're
on sabbatical right now.
Thank you for taking time totalk to me People.
Speaker 1 (48:36):
That's my email and then, if you're, interested in
our next conference forLutheranism and the Classics.
(48:56):
That's going to be October 3rdand 4th 2025.
If you do a Google search forLutheranism in the Classics,
it'll come right up and you canlook at, you can register for it
already.
That's open so, but it's goingto be a joint conference with
the CCLE, the Consortium ofClassical Lutheran Educators, so
(49:19):
there will be a lot of people.
There's going to be 40 papers,all Three plenaries, one banquet
, 24 Lutheranism in the classicsectional papers, and then 12,
or is it 10, 12 CCLE papers.
So there's going to be 40.
So that's a lot.
We're going to have a lot ofenergy here for that I love it.
Speaker 2 (49:41):
So, hey, good stuff.
What a joy to meet you viatechnology and looking forward
to staying connected, prayingfor both of our seminaries and
for churches at the grassroots,trying to be faithful, carrying
by word and sacraments themessage of Jesus out into the
world.
It's a good day.
Go make it a great day.
Please like, subscribe, commentwherever it is you take in
podcasts.
That helps get the word out, aswe at the ULC seek to have
(50:04):
uniting conversations and alsosome harder, harder
conversations.
But this was a uniting.
We can all agree, dr Nordling,the word of God and the original
languages are a great thing toknow, learn and preserve.
It's a good day.
Go make it a great day.
Thank you so much, dr Nordling.
Okay.
Speaker 1 (50:21):
Thank you so much, dr Northing.
Okay, thank you.
You know, people come and go, christians rise and
fall, nations do, elections do.
But finally, you know, ourcommitment is to the Word of God
and to the Lutheran Confession.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Welcome to the Tim Wellman Podcast.
It's a beautiful day to bealive.
I pray you're resting in yourbaptismal identity as Jesus
calls you up to be filled by him.
He makes us his dwelling place,by his spirit, and then calls
us to be shaped by his word andto carry that word out into the
world.
Today I get to hang out withReverend Dr John Nordling and
(00:38):
let me tell you a little bitabout John.
He is at Concordia TheologicalSeminary in Fort Wayne.
He's been a faculty memberthere since 2006.
He serves as a professor ofexegetical theology.
He gets to teach many, manywhat he calls sons in the faith.
I love that Greek and love forlove for then, not just Greek
but the classics in general.
(00:58):
He has a lot of experience inLutheranism and the classics.
He hosts a biennial conferencefor pastors and classicists and
educators to consider howclassical language have
influenced Lutheranism in thepast and how Greek and Latin are
poised to enrich the church,academy and culture into the
future.
He's written for the ConcordiaCommentary Series for CPH he is
(01:19):
currently finishing up.
He wrote Philemon, which I love.
He's currently figuringfinishing up his commentary on
Philippians and man.
I'm excited to have that.
He's also written on religionand resistance in early Judaism,
greek readings in FirstMaccabees and Josephus.
That's fascinating.
And for the Concordia PeerReview series he's done a number
(01:42):
of academic articles on thePauline epistles, slavery and
other social issues.
He's been married to hiswonderful wife, sarah Ann, since
19.
You're celebrating 40 years ofmarriage there, john.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Can't believe it 1985 .
Speaker 2 (01:58):
It does go fast.
I'm at 20 years with my bride,Alexis.
So how are you doing today,John?
What a joy to be with you.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Yeah, very good, I guess I didn't realize that
we're on now.
We were talking earlier.
I thought we were on.
So anyway, hello out there.
Glad to be on.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Now we're really on.
No, we were just hanging out.
Sorry for not being more clear,so let's start here.
As you look, we're going tostart like 30,000 feet from your
perspective as an exegete inthe Lutheran Church, missouri
Synod, what do you think are thegreatest cultural changes that
have impacted the church in thepast 20 years, and how has this
shaped the role of pastor andministry in our local context?
(02:38):
Any thoughts there, just to getus going, dr Nordling.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Well, I mean there are a lot of changes just to get
us going, dr Nordling.
Well, I mean there are a lot ofchanges.
There's a lot of, you know,like just how we're able to do
this interview.
You know I mean with technology, but I still, you know I'm a
classicist, I've trained as aclassicist, I went to the
(03:03):
seminary and New Testament iswhat I teach.
So I guess you know I went to StLouis also, like you, tim, and
one of my former favoriteprofessors there was Dr Nagel,
and he would always talk aboutinspecchiae eternitatis, you
know, from the perspective ofeternity, and so you know of
eternity.
And so you know, people comeand go, christians rise and fall
(03:27):
, nations do, elections do, butfinally, you know, our
commitment is to the Word of Godand to the Lutheran confessions
.
I mean that's our pole star, so, and then each of us are given
a vocation where we serve otherswith the gifts that God has
(03:47):
given us.
So you know, one of the thingsthat people used to say when I
was in graduate school atWisconsin, doing my PhD there,
was the more things change, themore they stay the same.
More things change, the morethey stay the same.
You know, I mean, I got to teachclassical mythology and the
(04:09):
myths are a very profound viewof reality, apart from Christ.
Okay, christ and the gospel arenot part of that purview, but
still they know human nature andpeople have known it for
millennia.
Okay, we don't know how old,how, how far back in time these
myths go, um, but they've beenaround before the time of
(04:34):
writing.
Okay, so, and the Bible is likethat too, and um, uh, so um,
we're here and and we're uhcalled by the gospel to faith.
Uh, so, um, we're here and andwe're uh called by the gospel to
faith.
Uh, the, the center of aLutheran congregation is the
word and sacrament where it'spresented publicly, uh to the
(04:55):
believers and then through them,to the world.
So I guess that's how I look atit.
So you know whether it's 20years I've been.
I've been here at the seminarynow for, I think, 18 years,
starting my 19th year, soroughly 20 years, but I haven't
really seen that many changes.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Yeah, no, I think it's good, I think that's a
right perspective.
It's a humbling perspective.
You know, I think a lot oftimes we in the West you can
look at individualism,consumerism, you can look at
technology.
Sometimes I think we're moreprone to think we're super
unique.
You know, like this is, this issuch an extraordinary,
(05:34):
unprecedented right I meanthat's a word that got used a
lot in terms of, maybe, theCOVID debacle like there's been
famines and plagues andpestilence and stuff all the way
down, like wars, rumors of wars, all that kind of it just is
what it is in a fallen, brokenworld.
And so we want to have a rightperspective of our time, teach
us to number our days Right andand but then to recognize we are
(05:56):
held by, supported, mobilized,equipped for ministry in our
respective vocations by the Godwho is above time, which kind of
blows our mind right.
That just, I think God kind oflooks down at us.
This is one of the things I'vebeen wrestling with, like what
is God's posture toward us,right, dr Nordlien?
Is it one of anger?
I think it's one of fatherlylove.
(06:17):
You know, I look at my kidstrying to make it, and my son
this morning made a bad choice.
He was out late last night at atrack meet, you know, and so
this morning he made the choicewhich will have consequences for
to sleep in, you know, and missfirst period.
We had a little conversationabout work ethic, you know, as
he was getting going.
Sometimes we got to do thingsand show up when we don't feel
(06:38):
like showing up and probably,but the tone of it's like it's
love, son, god's got good thingsfor you.
I want my law.
The law is here to help you notstumble too, but I think the
posture of our heavenly fathertoward us, in the face of Jesus,
is one of love and care, andhe's not angry.
Anything more to say about theposture of God toward us as
(06:59):
we're just trying to make itthrough the world.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Well, this God, who is above time, entered space and
time in our Lord and Savior,jesus Christ, and of course that
has all of the implications.
I mean the understanding of theLord's Supper, for example, in
the Lutheran sense that God usesbread and wine to convey the
(07:25):
body and blood of Christ.
So it's both bread and wine andbody and blood of Christ.
It's not one or the other, theway Roman Catholicism or the
Reformed teach, and it has aperspective on who we are.
Also, my baptism into Christ,where I die and rise with Jesus.
(07:46):
I was baptized before I evenremember, you know, but I've
always in a sense been in thechurch and, god willing, always
will be so.
And I'm old enough.
I'm almost 68 years old now.
I mean I'm not a spring chicken.
I'm old enough.
I'm almost 68 years old now.
(08:06):
I mean I'm not a spring chicken.
But I've made some mistakes butby God's grace, have landed
very well.
You know, the seminary here is agreat place for me personally
and my wife is not as blessed asI am, but she's with me, as
blessed as I am, but she's withme, and it's just such a
(08:28):
privilege to teach young peoplestudying for the Office of the
Ministry and Deaconess studentstoo.
They have an important role inour world.
You know who am I?
I mean, sometimes I feel theonly thing I can really give
them is don't do what I did.
Do as I say, not as I do.
Because you know, the thingsthat drew me to seminary were
(08:52):
not I didn't really want to be apastor, I wanted to be a
professor.
I mean I realized that long agobefore I went to seminary and I
love theology and all of that.
But I mean I was just quitetaken by all of the things that
pastors are entitled to learn,you know, starting with Greek
(09:13):
and theology.
And I was good at it, you know.
I mean I learned and I hadgreat professors at St Louis
when I went through.
Horace Hummel was my favoriteprofessor.
He's probably before your time.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
He was around as a retired prof kind of an adjunct.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
He taught a few courses.
I never had him.
Had him though.
Yeah, yeah, well, he, he was avery he was a very interesting
fellow.
Yeah, tell me about him.
He had foibles and and he was.
We liked to imitate him, and hewas also a very tough professor
.
A lot of my fellow studentsdidn't like him.
You always paid a price whenyou had a Hummel course.
(09:56):
The best class, best grade Iever got from him was a B, you
know, and I worked my butt off,but he designed 200 pages of
reading per night and and and heand you know he was, he was
just kind of really tough withstudents.
Another professor that I didn'tlike when I graduated but came
(10:18):
to like better was BillSchmelder.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Okay, no that he's definitely before my time.
Tell me yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
From whom I learned law, gospel, polarities, and he
seemed to think it was hisbusiness to take us down a notch
.
So the tough professors.
And then Nagel, of course, wasa great professor too.
He was much more benign, youknow.
He loved students.
You would go to his office andhe would just talk and make you
(10:44):
were like the center of theuniverse when you were in his
presence.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
So each of them.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
The St Louis Seminary that I was at was a great
blessing for me.
I feel I got a great educationthere and now I'm very much a
Fort Wayner because I've been atFort Wayne since 2006.
You know, I mean, david Scareis just a tremendous theologian
(11:10):
and I love his wit and hisacerbicness and irony.
You know, he embodies Jesus ina way, because Jesus was that
way.
Jesus had a sharp wit and youcould never, you know, back him
into a corner.
So hey, I'm curious.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
What was I talking about?
Go ahead, well, I'll follow up.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
I want to follow up, Dr Norley.
I'm losing my train of thought.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Anyway, I'll jog it.
Here we go.
So what was it about thegeneration, let's say 60s, 70s,
80s?
You mentioned these professors.
Yeah, get behind the curtain alittle bit, because I had Dr
Block taught me Greek atConcordia University in Nebraska
(11:58):
.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
Yeah, and this goes back.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
I was vickering there when he came Wow, okay, okay,
so that's over, overcomer.
I mean he was tough, like therewas no, like skirting around
responsibility, and I mean thememory work was intense, like I
don't know that they make themand maybe there's good reason
(12:22):
why, but in that season it wasthe discipline in the academic
rigor.
Maybe there's something in ourculture today and I'm not saying
we should just like willy nilly, don't like if you're a
professor, please don't be ajerk.
Right, there's a lot, there's aline, but there is a sense of
calling upward by highexpectation that maybe,
(12:43):
unfortunately today the bar youcould say is is lowered in some
context and uh, so yeah, any anythoughts as to why that may be.
And professors like dr blockare hard to come by today yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
So when I went through, uh, when I was in high
school, that's when the bigsynodical civil war happened,
right right, and I grew up inOregon, so the Northwest
District was kind of on theSemenex end of things, but I had
a great pastor, pastorStockkamp.
He tried to educate thecongregation in what was going
(13:17):
on.
He was very much a stickler formemorizing the catechism and
all of that.
But a lot of the other churchesin that area were not that way.
So anyway, and then I went toConcordia, portland and
Valparaiso and when I was atValparaiso I was very much into
the, I thought, like a Seminexperson thought, and because of
(13:41):
my mother I decided to go to StLouis rather than to another
seminary like Seminex.
And so when I was at St Louis Ihad a lot of kind of unlearning
to do and the first year wastough, but I really appreciated
Hummel and Nagel and people likethat and really, and so I made
(14:05):
my choice you know, I made mybed to be in Missouri and I've
been, haven't looked back.
I mean, I've been very thankfulfor it and I've tried to beat
the old liberals at their owngame because they were
tremendous historical criticalpeople.
So you know, the way is to readthe Bible historically but not
(14:25):
yield to historical criticism,whether we call it historical
grammatic or whatever, but usethe science and look at the
Bible historically.
That's why I got a degree inclassics, because it was too
dangerous to get one in OldTestament or even a New
Testament, I figured.
So I decided to go outside thecanon.
(14:46):
So I mean, that's basicallywhere I was coming from at the
time and so St Louis reallyhelped me at that time to go on
in grad school and classics andbecome a pastor in Chicago.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Could you educate us, Dr Nerdling, on what it means
to be a classicist?
That may be, for some of ourlisteners that's something that
is, that's probably a word theydon't always come across in
their everyday.
So what does it mean to be aclassicist?
And what does it mean then, inturn, to study the scriptures
using the classics?
You said you came to thescriptures through the classics
rather than through traditionalOld Testament, New Testament,
(15:25):
kind of exegesis.
So just say more there.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
Yeah, there's not too many of us left.
I mean, when I went through StLouis there were four professors
that had degrees, phds inclassics.
Now I think I'm the only.
No, that's not true.
John Bruss, president Bruss,he's a PhD in classics.
So there are a few of us.
But it means to study Greek andLatin, you know, and have
(15:51):
reading courses and read thelanguages in the original
language and work up to it.
And for the PhD I taught Latin.
I taught a lot of Latin alreadyas a grad student, and then
classical mythology.
So I mean that gave me a goodbackground for the scripture.
(16:20):
So with Philemon, when I didPhilemon, I was able to get into
, you know, extra biblicalsources like Cicero and look at
papyri and inscriptions andthings like that.
You know, and maybe even nottoo many pastors are that
interested in it, but I reallyam.
And it makes it.
You know, christ entered spaceand time.
(16:43):
You know I mean, otherwise it'sjust a shot in the dark, so so.
So when I'm working on a text,I have to read the Greek.
I have to.
I mean, it's like Samson andhis long hair.
If you cut off Samson's hair,he's weak If I don't look at a
(17:03):
text in the Greek original.
You know the New Testament.
I have nothing to offer becausethe translation can go in so
many different ways.
You have to know the text andyou have to know what.
Well, to be a pastor, in myhumble opinion, okay, you need
to be able to use it when youtake a call and enter the
(17:25):
ministry and you need tocontinue to work with it.
I mean, it's not an option thisis why you're being paid by
your congregation is to readGreek deeply, in my opinion.
Okay, not everybody agrees withthat, but that's where I'm
coming from.
Not everybody agrees with that,but that's where I'm coming
from, and not only is it aprivilege to do it, but it's an
(17:48):
obligation, because that willaffect the type of preaching and
teaching that you do.
You have to be rewired when youtake Greek.
Okay, it's a laborious process,it takes time.
We do it in 10 weeks, so I quizthose guys four days out of
(18:08):
five.
It's not an easy class, butthey end up loving it because I
make it fun.
We do singing, I have a cartoon, we also do composition, where
we go from English into Greek,because I think one of the
problems of our Missouri Synodhas been learning Greek too
(18:29):
passively.
You need to do it actively, andeven the students that are
having trouble with Greek canlearn that way.
I mean, if they don't do thecomposition sentence, they're
very mad because I didn't callon them and they were prepared.
So there has to be a kind of acompetition.
All right, so what do they say?
(18:51):
Iron, sharpens iron or whateveryou know.
So, and that gets them readyfor then doing theology.
I mean, it's about producingpastors who are theologians.
So pastors, in my opinion,should be professorial and
professors at the seminaryshould be pastoral.
(19:14):
Okay, both of them cometogether and even if you're a
parish pastor, you need to be atheologian.
You need to be able todemonstrate your study and
learning theology at a highlevel and not watering it down,
because if you water it down,you will change the doctrine of
(19:37):
the church.
That's what's at stake.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
No, I 100% agree.
Tell me your perspective ontools like Logos and other tools
that are being used right now.
When I entered in, I got all myHebrew syntax books, my concise
Hebrew and Aramaic lexicon ofthe old time.
(20:00):
I mean, I'm looking at thosebooks right now and a lot of
them are not out of print per se, but a lot of students are
using logos today.
So what are your thoughts there?
Speaker 1 (20:12):
Yeah, well, you got to realize you're dealing with a
Luddite.
The Roman poet Horace said Odiapparatus persicos I hate
Persian apparatus.
So I don't know how to use thewhiz-bang tools.
And I go to scholarlyconferences and some of them
have tried to hook me and drawme in.
(20:33):
The two tools that I use, evenwriting the commentary, is
Moulton and Geaton's Concordanceof the Greek Testament okay for
parallel passages andrelationships within, like a
gospel.
And then the other one that'sabsolutely indispensable is BDAG
, bauer, danker, arndt, gingrich.
(20:54):
Those two tools are very goodand that's how I try to get my
students to use.
Now, of course it's good to readcommentaries, but they don't
have time to read a ton ofcommentaries.
They should just read theConcordia commentary.
But then I try to get them todo their own work, their own
fresh exegetical work, and somestudents do it and a lot of them
(21:17):
don't.
I mean, now I am a toughprofessor, the circle has turned
full, so, but still I'm able towork with a lot of them.
And you know I tell thestudents, no professor does it
(21:40):
exactly the same way.
So try to learn from what Ibring and hopefully that will be
balanced out by what anotherprofessor brings.
Okay, and probably that's how itis for pastors as well.
But if you can get them workingwith the text, if you can get
them, you know, like our NewTestament Greek readings, if
they're able to have a winkleand meet weekly with other
(22:02):
pastors in the area over a Greektext, spend the first hour just
on the text itself and then geta cup of coffee or a donut,
then the second hour work on howwe're going to develop this
homiletically.
Okay, that would be a morningwell spent, in my opinion.
(22:23):
And there are, you know,unfortunately, some pastors now
that don't really know Greekvery well, or if they've even
studied it, like the SMP peopleyou know.
So what are we going to do withthem?
Well, if they meet together asa group over the text, that will
help them and maybe get theminterested in wanting to study
(22:47):
Greek from someone like me.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
OK, so toward that end, do you do you have, are
your classes like online?
If someone just wanted toengage with you, that's out in
the field like online.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
if someone just wanted to engage with you,
that's out in the field they are.
But, tim, here I'm going topart company with something I've
heard you say many times inother podcasts.
I've watched you for they cantake me.
I have an online Greek coursebut they never learn it as well
because they don't do thecomposition.
And plus, the seminary is justsuch a great place.
It's the center of a student'slife for a time.
(23:23):
And the chapel you know theworship in our chapel is the
best in the entire synod, in myhumble opinion, you know.
It's just so wonderful, it's sowell done and it equips a young
man to go forth and do likewisewhen he becomes a pastor.
(23:47):
So, yeah, I mean, I've thought,and you've been one of the
things a common recurring themein the podcast I've watched with
you is what can we do to getmore people?
As I've watched with you is iswhat can we do to get more
people, more produce, morepastors?
Maybe what we could do is havethe Greek class and have it
(24:08):
remotely done, where people wereconnected remotely.
It would be a lot more work forme, but it could probably be
done that way, you know, so thatthey at least get that
beginning initial class and getthem into the kind of the
exegetical sequence.
Yeah, but still, there'snothing like being on this
campus and also St Louis.
These are, these are.
(24:29):
This is hallowed ground.
You know it's important whenyou come and you want to make
the most of your time.
That's how I see it, so sure.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
And, would you say, the local church where Word and
Sacrament takes place?
That's also hallowed ground too, right, dr Nordling?
Of course, yeah right.
So there's no competition.
I ask that in all honestybecause it's I think it's both,
and right now, and too often Ithink we're going down a path
where it's kind of competitiveeither or and that's certainly
(24:58):
not the overall long rangeconversation I'd like to have I
want my son to go to one of ourseminaries if the Lord calls him
into ministry.
I want him to be in residential.
I think it is and some in thecircles that I run may take
issue with me I think it is thebest way to do it.
Now, I don't think it's theonly way to do it, understanding
(25:18):
the times in which we live, butI think it is the best.
And I think, if we can, if wecan develop more of a, of a
partnership to to reach people,to say, hey, there's a way for
the, the second career guy, toget trained, and I think I think
we should raise the bar on onsmp.
That's, that's my humble,humble opinion.
Um, and and I said to to lookdown on our.
(25:42):
That's not just looking downupon those that have gone
through that program, but, as Iwas talking with uh, both
seminary presidents a couple ofweeks ago, it's, it's not.
It's not a full MDiv right it's, it's maybe a third to a half
and and the languages, I think,being one of the opportunities
to elevate that learning.
(26:03):
And here's a shout out too, Ithink if we offer it connected
to the seminaries, if it's madeaccessible, a lot of our guys,
whether they've got SMP orthey're exploring future
pastoral ministry, they wouldlove to take it.
So, yeah, I think it's not a,not an either, or and I think
(26:24):
you know I am kind of one voiceand face in this whole
conversation, that I think and Ireally appreciate you taking
the time to be with me todaythat sometimes folks may think I
have compromising intentionsregarding formation.
Nothing could be further fromthe truth.
I would just like more Aheightened recognition of there
(26:47):
are other ways to do it, whichmeans we don't have to
compromise.
I think we should usetechnology for bivocational and
co-vocational leaders.
I've talked a lot about that,but I think that could boost our
seminary in-person programs.
So yeah, any thoughts there, drNordling?
Speaker 1 (27:03):
Well, yeah, I know that some of my favorite
students are SMP guys that havejust sensed that they need the
Greek, you know.
So they come and they kind ofremind me of the 10 lepers.
Nine of them didn't come backto thank Jesus, but one of them
did, you know, and that's that'show I get their, their extreme
(27:27):
gratitude.
And I think the SMP, I mean OK,I mean you can't, the genie is
out of the bottle, right?
I mean you can't do away withInternet technology.
It's here to stay, and so howcan you use it optimally?
I mean, I think that's thequestion.
And I think too that in itscurrent form, smp is kind of
(27:54):
modular.
So you get them started andmaybe their ordination is a
little too early, but they'reordained and they're working as
pastors in their currentsituation.
But then it's set up so thatlater they can take more and
build on what they're learning.
And you know what?
That's how it is for everypastor, even those that are very
(28:15):
well prepared.
I mean it's all about findingyour voice in the pulpit.
Okay, that God gives you,finding your voice there and
being comfortable and giving outthe gifts.
So the MDiv is not somethingthat we're supposed to all be
impressed with, but it's a giftto help others.
So is the PhD in classics.
(28:36):
The whole point is to helpothers, to help the church and
to get people who wouldn't knowGreek or Latin to just see how
cool and wonderful it is.
So I've given my life to it andI've put my wife through a lot
of heck, you know, to get me tothe training I've had.
But now I'm, in a way, god hasallowed me to give some of it
(28:58):
back.
You know so, and that's how itis for any Christian we die to
the self and live to Christ, ourLord.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Well, let's just hang .
I hear you talking aroundhumility and maybe we'll
piggyback this into Philippians,right, the higher you go, the
more you should realize how muchyou don't know.
And the way of Jesus is thedownward trajectory, right, it's
the upside down nature of thekingdom.
And I think sometimes information, right, the worst
(29:27):
thing that could happen is a guygets done with his studies and
says I pretty much have figuredout everything as it relates to
theology and ministry.
And it's like no, no, no, it's alifetime of learning.
There's always otherdisciplines and I think if the
pastor maintains that curious,humble heart like I, know a fair
amount about these things likethat's great.
My grandpa, who was a pastor,Dr Nordling, super old school.
(29:50):
I remember early on he saiddon't get the big head, Tim.
I was like 16, 17 or something,you know.
Did you give yourself thesegifts?
No, They've been given by theGod of the universe for you to
steward, but they're not yours,they're, they're his.
So maintain a humble posture.
Any, any comments aroundhumility, and I mean the.
The best humble chapter I wouldsay in all the epistles is
Philippians, chapter two.
So anything more.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Yeah, well, Christ him, and it happens.
That's what I'm working onright now the.
I'm working on right now thespring.
I'm working on the Christ hymn.
That's the last major part ofthe commentary I have to do.
I've done that last because Ifelt I needed to know what the
rest of the letter says.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
So what do you learn?
Can you get us behind?
Yeah, tell us about it.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
Well, I mean, as every Christian knows, the
Christ hymn is divided into theinundation or the ex-inundation
of jesus, his downward descentand then his exaltation in verse
nine.
You know, uh, the name which isabove every name, that at the
name of jesus, and etc.
So, um, um, but uh, jesus is,you know, is he, is it ethical
(31:00):
or is it charismatic?
That's, there's a big debateabout that.
In what sense is you know?
Paul begins in chapter 2, verse5, have this mind among you,
which is yours in Christ Jesus.
So I think the plain sense isthat he's sending, setting Jesus
out as an example for us.
(31:20):
But of course we're not savedby keeping the code, you know.
We're saved by grace, throughfaith for all of us.
But then not only Jesus ispresented that way, but so is
Timothy, so is Epaphroditus, sois Paul in chapter three, so are
the other named Christians inchapter 4.
(31:44):
Uodius, syntyche, clement andthe noble Yokefellow, whoever he
is.
So it's all paradigmatic.
And God puts us in a place tobe fed by the spirit around word
and sacrament, but also to helpothers.
You know, to help others, andthat's why I'm glad you invited
(32:06):
me to be on your show, because Ithink a lot of your people
listening to me haven't heard ofme.
You're not part of the FortWayne bubble, okay, but I'm glad
that I have an opportunity toyou know, to vent my spleen a
little bit.
And you know, because I wastrained at St Louis.
(32:29):
I mean, like you, I'm a StLouis alumnus, but here I am
teaching at Fort Wayne andloving Fort Wayne.
So you know, it's what do theysay Wherever God puts you in the
wilderness, make it into theGarden of Eden, basically, amen.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
Well, preachers love the Kingsmen and we're partners.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
That's because you always beat us.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
Well, we almost lost one year.
I don't know if you know this,dr Earl.
This would have been in 2004,.
So just five or so just beforeyou got there, there was gosh
what's his name?
He's actually teaching atConcordia Seminary.
People are listening.
Yeah yeah, yeah, I know, hewent to college Lane.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Jason Lane, jason Lane, there we go.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
And Jason was very good, yeah, and we only had I
think we had a few guys heard oraway or something we took like
six or seven guys to a gameagainst the Kingsmen and Jason
was a fourth year at that time.
I was a first year.
I was a first year.
(33:44):
I was playing with pastor namedJeff Claytor I don't know if
you know that name and I don'tthink Pete Nafsker, he's a
prophet.
The seminary in St Louis wasthere, but anyhow, we were a
little undermanned and I fouleda guy with five seconds to go or
something like that.
And we're on.
The preachers were up one andhe and he that God bless him.
He missed both free throws.
Wow, we barely won.
I don't know if the Kingsmenhave won since then.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
Yeah, they did.
Three years ago they beat StLouis here on our turf.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
I'm sure that was very exciting.
I go back for an alumni gameevery.
The Peterson Fieldhouse justhad its 75th anniversary.
Yes, I saw that.
Yeah, and I I played just thislast week and, uh, it I don't
know how many more years Iactually a funny, funny thing
and there's a video of it whichI've not posted, anything like
that.
I, I got the ball, the game wastied and I I hit it.
(34:33):
I made a three with like 10seconds to go and the crowd, so
the alumni actually beat we.
They didn't play all of theirbest players, to be honest,
because we were all in our 40sand 50s.
The Hainer brothers, which shoutout to Mark Hainer he loves
Greek and Hebrew, he is anexegete of, he's a fantastic
pastor, all of them, all of themare.
(34:53):
But anyhow, it's fun and Ithink that kind of the sense of
competition I like I can competetoward Jesus.
I like competition is notnecessarily bad, it's when it
leads toward division.
I can call you my brother andlike I want to.
I was just interviewing a young, a young teacher.
She's 25.
(35:13):
She goes.
I am in line with a whole hostof teachers, educators,
administrators, and she goes andI want to be the best.
You know, there's this likegodly sense of kind of drive to
use our gifts well.
It can cross a line, I guess,and move toward pride or
division, but I think that thatcall to offer our best in your
(35:34):
line, especially connected tothe word of God, which is the
best, like that's a, that's aholy, holy thing.
Any, any comments, though, tokind of the competitive nature
of, of church leaders?
Speaker 1 (35:44):
Well, yeah, I mean we , we compete.
I mean I'm thinking of Paul inchapter three.
I think Paul has a sense ofhumor in a way.
He he presents himself as anexample.
You know, he's a Pharisee ofPharisees, circumcised on the
eighth day, all of this.
But then he gives it all up,you know, and it's like he's
(36:12):
saying to get ahead in thekingdom you have to, you have to
die to yourself.
Really, that's what it's allabout and there's kind of a
twinkle in his eye.
There's kind of vestiges ofPauline humor and people.
You know, that's one of theproblems with the New Testament
is people take Jesus and Paul soseriously.
But actually Jesus was reallyfunny, you know.
(36:34):
I mean, this is why he was sopopular with the crowds, because
he had this keen wit.
He was always up against thePharisees who really were
pompous jerks.
He was always putting them intheir place.
How he did it is so creative.
But we don't look at it thatway.
We always look at him as Lordand Savior and of course he is
(36:56):
that Lord and Savior and ofcourse he is that.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
You know, I mean his humor is sometimes worth
expounding upon.
I think, yes, well, we'recoming down the homestretch here
.
Dr Nordling, let's hang withJesus and the joy of Jesus.
One of the funniest stories.
I'd love to hear your top one ortwo funny Jesus stories the
baptism of John.
Where did it come from?
Right, right, jesus asked.
You know?
Well, if you can't, you knowthey're.
They're, they're wrestling, thePharisees are wrestling.
(37:27):
Well, if you can't tell me that, then I'm not going to.
You know, I'm not going to tellyou this.
I mean, he is so, um, ironic,you know he's, he's just so kind
, but he just frustrates theheck out of the Pharisees.
You're exactly right, theydon't have a sense of humor.
You know, they don't know thejoy of like.
Somehow the joy of the delightof the Father has left them and
(37:50):
I think there's humor all over.
I think when Peter hasbreakfast on the beach with
Jesus I don't know if it's humorI see Jesus like smiling as
they're like.
You know, no one says anything.
They knew it was the Lord.
You remember this.
And then, Jesus centers in doyou love me?
You know, yeah, you know, okay,here's, here's your call.
(38:10):
I think there's.
Jesus is so delightful Um, Idon't know if that's an
adjective you normally use.
He delights over us and then hedelights when we find joy in
the world when we laugh together.
So funny stories from Jesus.
Top two or three, Dr Nordling.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
Well, I think you know more about that than me,
because you're preaching everyweek and I don't.
I mean, I preach quiteirregularly, I'm a professor, so
I teach, and I'm not eventeaching right now, I'm just
writing.
But for example, he says youknow, can you get grapes from
(38:49):
thorns?
You know that's.
You know stuff like that.
Do birds or the lilies considerthe lilies of the field, how
they never toil nor spin.
Not even Solomon is arrayed inall his glory as one of these.
Stuff like that.
That would have been quitehumorous the first time they
(39:12):
were heard and that's why theywere recorded.
You know, in Matthew's gospeland I believe you know, david
Scare believes in the earlydating of Matthew and I
basically do too.
But it's the foundation uponwhich the other three, two
synoptic gospels depend and eventhe rest of the New Testament.
(39:34):
So when Paul wrote Philippians,he may have had Matthew's
gospel as one of the texts, inaddition to, of course, all of
the Septuagintal Old Testamentreadings as well.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
Let's just stay with Matthew for a second.
What is the early date forMatthew that you—.
Speaker 1 (39:56):
Oh gosh, I don't know if I— it would be.
I think that I might get thiswrong.
I think David Scare would argueearly 40s, 40s, okay.
Speaker 2 (40:06):
Yeah, I think Within a decade or so.
Speaker 1 (40:09):
Yeah, but Luke is going to be quite a bit later.
That would be at the end of the50s.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
Oh, end of the 50s, okay.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
Coinciding with the three missionary journeys of
Paul that are depicted in Acts.
And then we would date Marklater still, you know, and
John's the latest Mark inpriority.
So Mark coincides, I believe,with the great fire of Rome,
which is 64 AD, as recorded byTacitus.
(40:40):
And then you have John.
You just asked about John.
Well, bill Weinreich, who'swriting the commentary on John,
thinks that the Johannine Gospelis early, so he parts with
David Scare on that issue.
But I guess I, like most people, think that John is later.
Sure, you know, at the end ofthe first century.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
Yeah, why does he say it's early?
I'd be curious.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
I don't know.
I should know that better.
But he's got his reasons.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
Well, it's definitely distinct, yeah it is I mean the
upper room discourse one of myfavorite pieces of scripture,
right?
Yeah, I'm just.
I'm just throwing out ahypothesis.
Maybe because he's so clearwith the discourse, he's not
always telling a story Like John13 through 17,.
This is one of the longersections of Jesus talking in all
(41:32):
of the Gospels, so maybe that'sone reason it could be earlier.
But the Chosen you know wedon't espouse everything on the
Chosen, right?
It's extra biblical, the show.
Have you watched any of that?
Speaker 1 (41:45):
no, I haven't.
What is the chosen?
Speaker 2 (41:48):
oh, it's just a, a fascinating story of the life of
jesus in long, in long form.
You know, uh, they, they willhave other conversations.
They're trying to make jesus,he's funny in it, he's
accessible, they're to the story.
But then there's otherconversations that take place.
So think of like a miniseries,adding, adding things that took
(42:10):
place that we don't know, kindof behind the scenes.
So some exegetes are like Idon't know that.
You can, you should, you shoulddo that necessarily, but you
know it's a.
The reason I bring it up is theyhave John connected to Mary as
she's helping him.
Now, I don't know where theyget this.
I guess this is here's yourmother.
(42:31):
You know like they had a closerrelationship with Jesus, jesus,
mother Mary moving forward,that maybe she was there helping
him.
Remember some of the, some ofthe details.
Don't don't know exactly ifthat's accurate or not.
Anyhow, this has been fun.
I've about got to get toanother meeting.
Let's close with this questionwhat are your top two or three
(42:52):
hopes for confessionalLutheranism, especially in the
LCMS, in the coming years, drNordling?
Speaker 1 (42:57):
Well, I hope that selfishly, that what I bring to
the table will bear fruit.
You know that more pastors willlearn Greek well, not fewer.
Because I think it's veryimportant for the ministry that
goes on in our secular society,which is so turned against the
(43:18):
Lord, that congregations canbecome bright places where
Christ is met.
I think that the church of the21st century is kind of like the
church of the first century.
You know, right now we have aCaesar in power that many
Missouri Synod people likeDonald Trump, but that can very
(43:42):
quickly change.
Like Donald Trump, but that canvery quickly change.
And no, you know, trust not inprinces.
They are, but mortal.
You know, as the hymn says, sothat the congregations will do
well.
You know missions are goingpretty well.
I've been going to Africa.
I've been 14 times to SouthAfrica, oh wow.
(44:02):
I've been going to Africa.
I've been 14 times to SouthAfrica, oh wow.
And there's a great hunger inAfrica right now for Fort Wayne
professors and seminaryprofessors.
I've been to Tanzania and alsoKenya and Nigeria four times.
So you know we're highlyregarded in the world outside of
(44:23):
the Missouri Synod.
You know we're highly regardedin the world outside of the
Missouri Synod and a lot ofLutherans, world Lutherans, want
to learn from us.
Right now it happens that way,so I think that will.
I've been telling the Africanstudents that I teach that maybe
you're going to have to becomemissionaries to America, that I
(44:45):
teach that maybe you're going tohave to become missionaries to
America because in our innercities they're not going to
listen to a white guy like me,but they may listen to you, you
know, and I mean I really dothink that the time is not far
where that could happen, butthat we just be faithful with
the things that the Lord gives.
Something else is this whole CC.
I know you interviewedChristian Preuss, but that is
(45:09):
really a very exciting movementwhere the Consortium of
Classical Lutheran Educators,where they're doing a lot of
homeschooling, teaching Latinand classical subjects, that
movement is really taking off,you know, and it's kind of, in a
way, back to the way thingsused to be, but not really.
I mean, it's very presentfocused and future focused,
(45:32):
because these children aregetting a very good education
and that will take them places.
So, even while classics is kindof dying out because of wokeism
and so forth, latin and Greekare taking off in our circles.
Okay, so I just last summerwent to the CCLE annual meeting
(45:53):
in Seward and I was just amazedthey had 500 people there.
They're bursting at the seamsand a lot of our Fort Wayne
grads are our headmasters orcantors, and I mean that's a
very exciting thing too, thatthe Lord blesses us right with
the type of Christians that weare.
(46:13):
So I guess that's what I'mthinking.
That's wonderful.
Speaker 2 (46:20):
I believe in the next 20 years or so.
I think there is.
I don't know if we'd use theterm revival per se.
Lutherans are skittish onrevival.
It seems kind of out of control, maybe charismatic or something
like that.
But I think there's anawakening of our younger people
(46:40):
toward the basics, toward whatgrounds us, and you mentioned a
loaded word like wokeism.
You know that, finding ouridentity I think it's a lot
around.
Identity, dr Nardoleen, anythingother than who we are as a
baptized child of God and themission that God has called us
to by the power of his spirit,to bring his word that never
(47:02):
changes, that grounds us, thatis above us and beyond us, that
that desire for you could saythe transcendent, made evident
in the person of Jesus Christ,is.
There's an opportunity for usright now, in confessional
mission, missional and I willuse mission like we're on
mission to make Jesus known.
(47:23):
Right, we get to train uppeople in a variety of different
vocations in our local contextto see that the fields are ripe
under the harvest, that thereare people walking in darkness
in need of the light of Jesus,and so, in the midst of
disagreement in our church bodyand I'm, you know, as it relates
to formation.
I guess I'm a voice in thatwider conversation and I'm, you
(47:44):
know, as it relates to formation, I guess I'm a voice in that
wider conversation.
I truly believe that exegeteslike yourself hold the church
together around our commonmission and confession.
During times where we're justtrying to I've used this word a
lot, dr Nordling, it's a liminalspace we're trying we don't
exactly know how to get meaningnot just around workers but
(48:05):
mobilizing all of the priesthood.
We know the church has walkedthrough liminal times, the early
church, like how is this allgoing to go Right?
And within generations thegospel moved forward and became
predominant.
You know the way of Jesusbecame predominant in the
culture and we could see a shifttoward that end.
And I think exegetes likeyourself are huge, keeping us
(48:27):
focused on Jesus and his word.
So thank you so much for thetime.
Dr Nordling, if people want toconnect with you, I know you're
on sabbatical right now.
Thank you for taking time totalk to me People.
Speaker 1 (48:36):
That's my email and then, if you're, interested in
our next conference forLutheranism and the Classics.
(48:56):
That's going to be October 3rdand 4th 2025.
If you do a Google search forLutheranism in the Classics,
it'll come right up and you canlook at, you can register for it
already.
That's open so, but it's goingto be a joint conference with
the CCLE, the Consortium ofClassical Lutheran Educators, so
(49:19):
there will be a lot of people.
There's going to be 40 papers,all Three plenaries, one banquet
, 24 Lutheranism in the classicsectional papers, and then 12,
or is it 10, 12 CCLE papers.
So there's going to be 40.
So that's a lot.
We're going to have a lot ofenergy here for that I love it.
Speaker 2 (49:41):
So, hey, good stuff.
What a joy to meet you viatechnology and looking forward
to staying connected, prayingfor both of our seminaries and
for churches at the grassroots,trying to be faithful, carrying
by word and sacraments themessage of Jesus out into the
world.
It's a good day.
Go make it a great day.
Please like, subscribe, commentwherever it is you take in
podcasts.
That helps get the word out, aswe at the ULC seek to have
(50:04):
uniting conversations and alsosome harder, harder
conversations.
But this was a uniting.
We can all agree, dr Nordling,the word of God and the original
languages are a great thing toknow, learn and preserve.
It's a good day.
Go make it a great day.
Thank you so much, dr Nordling.
Okay.
Speaker 1 (50:21):
Thank you so much, dr Northing.
Okay, thank you.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.