April 2, 2025 • 50 mins
Pastor Gabe Kasper explores how our networked, globalized world has fractured into competing narratives about meaning and purpose—and why the gospel offers the transcendent perspective we desperately need.
• Aiming for happiness directly will never work; we must aim for something greater
• Modern culture offers four primary narratives: moralism, hedonism, therapeutic mindset, and nihilism
• Leaders grow through the books they read and the people they meet
• Pastor as curator—reading widely to serve people in an information-saturated age
• We weren't designed to know everything happening globally, which creates unmanageable anxiety
• Seeking identity in political tribes leads to moralism rather than gospel freedom
• Our deepest longing is to be fully seen yet fully loved—something only Christ offers
• The revolutionary concept that God cares about individuals, not just collective groups
• Finding the "second naïveté"—returning to simple gospel truths with deeper understanding
• In our extremes: to the hedonist, "you will die"; to the nihilist, "you will live"
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
If you.
What we know is this if you aimfor happiness, you will never
get it.
Like it's this thing where,like, if that's what you aim for
, it won't work.
You always have to aim forsomething greater than happiness
, and then you find happinessgets thrown in, right, yeah,
that's it.
We know this man.
It is a insatiable drive forpeople to say like, hey,
pleasure at all costs, like allcosts, and it's like we just
(00:22):
can't learn this lesson.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
But to that point.
It's not that pleasure, likeChristianity, has a lot to say
about this.
It's not that our emotions, ourfeelings, our pleasure centers
are bad, it's just that they'reperverted.
Yeah Right, welcome to the TimWallman Podcast.
(00:47):
I pray.
The joy of Jesus is yourstrength.
I am so juiced by Jesus to talkwith this younger than I leader
, not by my, I don't know by toomuch, but Gabe Casper is in the
house today.
How are you doing, gabe?
I'm doing well.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Thanks so much for having me, Tim.
I'm honored to be with you.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
This is going to be great.
So let me tell you a little bitabout Gabe, and then he can
kind of fill in the gaps.
He's the lead pastor at ULC,university Lutheran Chapel.
Sometimes I was confused and wewere running the same circles.
There's another.
Yeah, this University Lutheran,this ULC, has been around for a
lot longer than the UnitedLeadership Collective.
So University Lutheran Chapelhe's been there for eight years.
Prior to that current role, hespent five years as a church
(01:26):
planner in Austin, texas.
He has a passion for preaching,and teaching has led him to
speak across the country on avariety of theological,
philosophical and culturaltopics.
He has his Master of Divinityfrom my alma mater as well,
concordia Seminary, st Louis Gopreachers and a master's in
Preachers preach baby Preachers.
Gotta preach baby and shoot.
Anyway, he has a master's inphilosophy from Eastern Michigan
(01:48):
University.
In his spare time, gabe enjoysplaying.
Are you still playing soccer?
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Like you're still getting after it playing soccer.
I sub for an over 30 team.
So not too often, but probablyonce a month or so.
Try to get out there Love that.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
He's a reader.
He's into punk rock andcheering on his beloved Packers,
Go Pack.
He and his wife Melissa.
They have three kids.
How old are your kids now?
We got 12, nine and six, Allright, so you're just a handful
of years behind me, with threein high school.
I sent this email to getconnected to you, gabe.
I've admired you, your family.
(02:23):
For those of you who don't know, rob Casper been a longtime
leader in the Lutheran ChurchMissouri Synod and we kind of
have this longer trajectory asleaders in our church, kind of
multi-generational.
But I loved your presentationat the gathering at Ann Arbor,
just outside of Ann Arbor, a fewmonths ago in October, and so I
(02:44):
took copious notes.
Some of our conversation todayis going to be based on that and
we're going to see where theHoly Spirit leads.
That being said, let's starthere.
You have a learner's mindset.
Leaders are learners, alwaysdigging in.
I see on your bookshelf you'vegot a number of different books.
I'm always working throughthree or four different books,
different concepts, kind ofmolding me.
(03:05):
How did you develop thatlearner's mindset over the years
, gabe?
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Yeah, it's a couple of things.
So one like quick story likewhen I was getting started in
ministry I went to a conference,went to a workshop led by Don
Christian, who I think has beenon lead time, and it was a
leadership one, and he just saidthis very simple sentence that
kind of changed my life in thisregard is he said, like your
leadership will grow by twothings by the books you read and
(03:33):
the people you meet.
And I was like just taught aseminary, I'm like all right,
I'll read a lot of books andmeet a lot of people.
You know like let's, let's justgo for that.
And so that did just kind ofinstill in me that like leaders
are learners, leaders arereaders, like let's go.
But then, secondly, I do thinkour cultural context like
demands it, broadly speaking, inthat like it's just like an
(03:57):
absolute information deluge,right.
And so you know, if you thinkback to like seminary days, like
pastor as educator, pastor ascounselor, I think we need, like
pastor as curator, where I wantto read widely and I want to
read deeply for the sake,hopefully, of serving my people.
So it's just like something Ican do and I like to do and so I
want to be able to do that.
(04:18):
And then, third is, like myunique context.
Depending on you know whatmagazine you read, ann Arbor is
often cited as the most educatedcity in the country, and so I
mean, you know it's percentagebased, right?
We're a smaller city comparedto like San Francisco, right?
But nevertheless very, verywell educated.
And so, like I, just like Ikind of have to, contextually,
(04:41):
to just stay on top of my world.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Yeah, I love that.
Here's one of the things topiggyback or go back to what
you'd said about Don.
It's great words of wisdom.
I want to be able as not just aleader, but as a pastor I want
to be able to meet anyone andask certain questions that get
to know them, that expresscuriosity about their
(05:08):
perspective, their worldview,their vocation, and I want to be
able to have an intelligentconversation with almost anyone
about anything.
That doesn't mean I become anexpert.
Far from it, you actuallyrealize how little you know
about a variety, a wide varietyof topics.
You know just enough, like thequestions to ask that make
connection and that you get to.
(05:29):
You get to learn from thisperson in their different
contexts.
Say more about that I that.
That's the humble journey.
There's always more to learn,right, gabe A hundred percent, a
hundred percent, no, I thinkthat's it.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
I mean, it's the whole, like you know, the like,
the Dunning-Kruger effect, whichis okay, okay, so it's like
this psychological sort ofphenomenon.
Uh, these two psychologists,dunning and kruger, dug into it.
We're like take your, like Idon't know, 19 year old freshman
in college who takes theirfirst, let's say, like sociology
class, and all of a sudden theyare an expert on sociology and
(06:02):
like they think they knoweverything and so they're at the
peak of this.
But then the more they learn,the less they realize they
actually know, right, and so itgoes down to they're like man, I
barely know anything.
And then it starts to curve upagain once you're like a PhD.
But that's like it'scomplicated, right, and so so
all that say is like I don'tever, um, I don't ever want to
(06:23):
fall victim to that right.
Like I want to have a certainepistemic humility about me that
says, like there's always moreto learn, there's more than I
can grab hold of.
But to your point, I think,just in terms of connecting with
people like man, like I want tobe able to talk with a student
who walks through my doors,who's like into studying physics
Well, like I didn't even takephysics in high school, all
(06:45):
right, but like can, can I atleast reference something like
that that can be a gatewaytowards conversation, a gateway
to learning more about them, andso I want to try and do that.
Yeah, amen.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Have you, have you ever heard of the kind of going
along with the Dunning?
Is it the Dunning effect?
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Dunning yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Dunning Kr.
Is it the Dunning effect?
Dunning, yeah.
Dunning-kruger effect yeah,I'll have to look at that.
Have you ever looked atpsychologists kind of looking at
the first and second half oflife?
There's a lot of literaturewritten about this, but the
first half of life is the egobeing built up and this positive
sense of self, and humans needthis.
They orient themselves in theworld.
I can contribute.
I'm not a worthless mass ofcells just bumbling through life
(07:29):
, right.
So you need to have this senseof self, but there gets to a
point and hopefully it comessooner than later and I think
probably late adolescence, early20s, in terms of the formation
of a Jesus follower, is probablythe right amount of time.
You need to have someone inyour world that speaks
(07:49):
positively to you but alsomentors you around a posture of
humility that opens doors, thatsays and this is like my grandpa
.
I think everybody needs agrandpa Tim, you're not that big
of a deal.
Don't get the big head, youdon't.
Who even gave you the gifts?
Who even gave you the mind?
Who even gave you my grandpa?
I think everybody needs agrandpa Tim.
You're not that big of a deal.
(08:10):
Don't get the big head youdon't.
Who even gave you the gifts,who even gave you the mind, who
even gave you, you know, thephysical, like it's all God
right, it's all gravy.
So the second half of life, thesecond half of life is just
realizing how joy filled lifecan be when you sacrifice, when
you go on this adventure, whenyou ask a lot of questions, when
you recognize, when you don'thave the answers.
(08:32):
That feels, I feel way morealive when I acknowledge that
than I do by trying topridefully position myself as
the guy in our organization orthe guy you know.
Making this decision Like pridefeels so gross to me, like like
leading from a place of pride,like Tim's way.
(08:55):
Well, like that, what are we?
Even?
Speaker 1 (08:57):
talking about.
We're all just trying to makeit up.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
We're all just making it up as we go, trusting the
Holy spirit to work in andthrough us.
So any kind of comments on thefirst and second half of life,
gabe, yeah, a bunch.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
I mean one when you were speaking there just
reminded me of a certaininterview with the theologian
Stanley Harawas a couple yearsago where he was asked like, hey
, what sin are you wrestlingwith in this interview?
And he said, oh, it's alwayspride.
And he said he's like I thinkthe whole of the Christian life
is learning to live out ofcontrol.
That, like that's actually thepath of sanctification is
(09:29):
learning to live out of controlof myself and to trust and rest
and be dependent upon God andhis grace and his goodness.
Right, so I think that.
And he, of course, is very muchin the second half of his life.
So that's right on.
I think there's also one of myfavorite ways of thinking about
the sort of spiritual life andour growth and development is
Paul Ricoeur is a Frenchtheorist and he talks about
(09:52):
spiritual development in likethree phases.
So and he's not the first oneto do this, but I like his way
of doing it and so the first iswhat he calls the first naivete,
which is just, you're like, didyou receive this faith as a kid
?
Or if you came to faith as anadult?
It's like, whatever churchyou're at, you're like my pastor
knows everything right, so youjust like take this stuff in,
(10:12):
and then, and then there's this,this middle part where he calls
the critical distance, andthat's where you're like science
explains everything or you knowwhatever your sort of
existential issue is with thefaith you received.
you kind of go through that andit looks different for different
people but it's pretty common,like even for those of us who
are pastors.
You went through some level ofthis sort of critical distance.
(10:32):
But then you come to the otherside of that and that's where he
calls the second naivete, whichis where you look back on that
faith you received and you maybedismiss some of it, maybe not,
maybe you grab hold of all of it, but either way it's, it's in a
more profound and a deeper andthen almost a more, uh, relaxed
way.
I don't know if that's quite theright word, but it's just like
(10:54):
yep, you know, like I'm not, Idon't have to defend it, it'll
defend itself.
Like you know, like I'm, like,I'm okay, like it's fine, yeah
yeah, well, I think you'repinging on something here.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
Identity is the thread right.
Recognize is my identity in meor is it in the death of me?
And the elevation of Christ,and that always comes about.
The second stage.
There you say critical distance.
There's a sense of the darknight of the soul.
There's an existential crisisof some.
(11:25):
What used to give satisfactionno longer gives satisfaction,
and the more we acknowledge thatrather than fight against it,
the more we're just likesurrendered maybe is a good word
.
And then moved in to the secondseason, the second naivete with
I love that word there's a relax.
I don't have to defend, I don'thave to fight.
I don't have to fight anymore.
(11:45):
I can live in the freedom.
Maybe this is good as Lutherans, but I can live in the freedom
that comes in my identity inJesus Christ.
Anything more around identityas it relates to those three
stages, Gabe.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot to that, because
there's man, how do we put it?
If we could live in our identity, in in Jesus Christ, like all
the time, like I mean in onesense, okay, we might say at a
sort of I don't know ontologicallevel, we do always exist in
that way, right, Like incorrect,great, but experientially, if
(12:18):
we could live in that right man,the amount of freedom that's
there is incredible.
It's just so hard to stay thereand like live in that and rest
in that continually and and Idon't know the solution to that,
other than it seems to me liketime and suffering, like I like
I think that's maybe it, butthat's where I mean I look at my
(12:40):
grandma who passed away severalyears ago, but she's like the
most mature person of faith Iknow and it was like she's like
small town, wisconsin, like noone's going to know her, no
one's going to know her name,but what she did to bless her
neighbors, what she did to lovethose near her, what she did,
you know right, and the, thesort of depth of faith she had
(13:00):
in Christ, it's like dude,that's what I want.
Like who cares if I'm leading,if I'm writing, if I'm speaking
whatever, like let me be thatkind of a person, right and and
like lean into that yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
Well, god honors that and that's like.
That may seem small, gabe,that's really really big, your
grandma passing on the faith.
I think a lot of times in theAmerican mind, like we're big,
I'm known, I've got a stage,I've got a platform, you know,
I've got a podcast or what Ilike, in our different world we
(13:35):
think that that's significance.
The ultimate significance ispassing on the faith to our
family, to our neighbor, beingthe hands and feet of Jesus,
when no one really cares,there's no applies, it's just
the steady.
It's a steady move in the Jesusdirection that bears fruit
across generations.
Like that appears, especiallywhen we're in such a hyper
individual, you know,consumeristic, celebrity,
(13:56):
infatuated culture.
Like that long move in theJesus direction with no very
little notoriety by the widerworld that feels insignificant.
It appears as if the kingdom ofGod is a small thing, like a
mustard seed that then burrs upinto something that's
significant beyond generations.
Is that right?
I mean we have to.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
Someone said that once.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
Someone did.
Yeah, he's pretty significant,by the way.
Pretty significant, yeah.
So, yeah, I mean that is theJesus direction.
It's losing everything and thenout of that surrender to the
Father's will, all the way tothe point of death on the cross,
resurrection, life comes, andit's way I think Jesus left us.
Let's go to Jesus.
Jesus left us that kind of amodel.
It's going to be good for you.
(14:38):
If I go away, Then I'm going tosend the Holy Spirit and this
thing is going to move in verysmall ways, but it's going to
have multi-generational impact.
You will be my witnessesJerusalem, Judea, Samaria, to
the ends of the earth.
That is the way of Jesus.
It was a very, very small thingthat became very, very big.
And so, lest we go back to thiskind of celebrity, you know,
status, power, pride, move,that's not the way of Jesus.
(15:02):
Anything more to say about theway of Jesus being small Gabe.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
Yeah, man, I mean you're like, I just seem like
here in Philippians to comethrough here, right, and it's
like what's?
Uh?
I mean Tim Keller has this lineback in the day of like, uh,
you know, the way of Jesus isyou go down to come up, right,
you go down to come up andthat's, that's everything.
And I think there is somethingto that in terms of like, I mean
, it's weird, like being apastor in the american church in
(15:27):
the 21st century.
It's like weird like it's justit's totally weird and and I
think like acknowledging thatbecause then it's like you know,
because we can say like allright, it's small, be small, but
then like, uh, you know, we'redoing a podcast right now that's
going to be public on aplatform, right, and it's it's
like, well, do you actuallybelieve what you're saying?
It's like, well, I do, but it'slike I also have an opportunity
(15:49):
to help people and to serveothers and I want to do it from
that place, right.
So it's like it actuallyreminds me of Bonhoeffer and
discipleship he talks about likeall right, so, jesus in the
Sermon on the Mount.
He tells us, like all right, so, jesus in the Sermon on the
Mount.
He tells us like hey, when yougive, don't let your left hand
(16:12):
know what your right hand isdoing.
And simultaneously Jesus saysdo your good works before others
so they may give glory to yourfather in heaven.
And so Bonhoeffer's like whatthe heck, are we supposed to
keep it hidden or not?
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Right, like what do we do with?
Speaker 1 (16:20):
this and Bonhoeffer says the solution is to keep it
hidden from yourself.
That's it Right, Like that'sthe solution.
It's hard, but that's thesolution.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
Well, it's a very unique day in which we live,
where technology's radicallyshifted the church shifted the
church and it's really easyeasier, I would say, than maybe
a few generations.
(16:52):
Pride is ever knocking at yourdoor.
How many views, how many likes,what did they say?
Right?
The reason I love long formpodcast is to mirror healthy
disagreement, debate around orjust ideas kind of interacting,
and I love it because you can't,or it's very hard to be
(17:15):
disingenuous over a longconversation.
You can give a sound bite andhave a shadow side, you can have
a reel and it come across.
But like I've been doing thesenow for so long and I learn how
little the reason I do it is, Ihave one a lot to learn and I
realize how inadequate I am inthis whole thing and so I've got
(17:38):
to have other people that.
I'm serious about that.
I've got to have other peoplethat I'm bumping up against,
that are going to press andchallenge and come from
different contexts andperspectives the biggest.
So I'm going to just dip my toeinto the political waters of
the LCMS we do that from time totime, right.
So my biggest struggle it is mybiggest struggle is people in
(18:00):
leadership positions.
When there's a public debatethat's taking place out in the
marketplace, out in the publicsquare, and leaders will not
come on to have honest, longconversation around a point of
disagreement, that is a gap forus right now.
I don't know what else to say.
(18:22):
You're fearful about beingexposed.
I don't know what your identityis in Jesus.
Why wouldn't we have longerform conversations about areas
of disagreement?
Politicians, this is okay.
Now I'm really going to gothere.
One thing I love now, I don'tlove everything about President
Trump, but what I appreciate isyou know what you're going to
(18:44):
get Like.
The guy is just shooting fromthe hip like all the time.
Does he make mistakes?
Is he bumbly?
Is he a broken, selfish,prideful sinner?
Yeah, but he at least talks inthe public square right, he's at
least talking, so leaders needto talk.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Anyway, let's go there.
No, but you're like tappingright in.
So it's interesting, like today.
I don't know when this will bereleased, but if I can say the
date, we're recording it onfebruary 25th.
Uh, on the the ezra klein show.
Uh, if you know him, new yorktimes columnist, um, okay, he
has.
He had on there today.
Uh, martin gurry, who is likethis guy, who's deeply
influential for me as far asthinking about like information
(19:19):
theory, media theory, and martingurry makes this exact case
that you made.
And again, he's not likepro-Trump Actually, I think he
is maybe now, but he wasn't fora long time and like whatever.
His point is not political.
His point is like, dude, thisguy has adapted to the new media
landscape, whereas back in theday, in sort of a institutional
(19:40):
industrial model of work, ofindustry, of media, whatever.
Yeah, then if you're inleadership, you can hide all
your skeletons.
It's easy to do it, buddy.
The skeletons are all out ofthe closet already, so you may
as well just like walk aroundwith them, right?
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Just acknowledge it.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
And have the conversation with folks.
Uh, cause otherwise we knowyou're hiding stuff, like we
just know.
It's just like, uh, it's,there's too much information now
.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
So I think you're right and I think it is on
leaders, whether it's us incongregations or synodical
leaders, whatever, to be willingto just enter into the mess and
have the long conversations inpublic.
Not maybe, not necessarilyeverything all the time.
We don't have to be reactive,we can be reflective, but, like
transparency builds trust,transparency builds, builds
(20:27):
community.
So yeah, it does, it does Allright?
Speaker 2 (20:29):
Hey, let's get into your talk.
This is so much fun.
Um, I knew, I knew this is theway we'd start, so let's talk
let's talk globalization.
So you talk globalization inyour presentation and people
orienting themselves around fourmain hubs.
I'll highlight them for youMoralism, hedonism, therapeutic
ism.
That's not an is anyway.
(20:50):
And then a anyway, and thennihilism.
So let's go there, Orient us.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
Yeah, so a real quick , like summary.
So, if we go so, the argument Imade in this talk and I'll
summarize it real quick is thatwe've shifted from an age of
institutions andindustrialization to an age of
networks, and so power andinformation was once
consolidated centrally and now,due to what I argue, and this is
(21:17):
from Martin Gurry globalizationand the internet, due to these
two combinations, we live in adecentralized age in which power
has decentralized throughout avast network.
Now, it's not to say therearen't hubs and nodes that are
pretty significant andinfluential compared to others,
but still there's no justcentral like.
So again, the easiest exampleis media.
(21:37):
You go back what time is hard.
70 years now, walter Cronkiteis the most trusted man in
America.
Why?
Because he's part of aninstitution that has access to
all the information, right, sowe're going to trust him.
Well, now we all have access toall the information all the
time.
So there's no trusted voice inAmerica, like because I can get
whatever info I want fromwhatever.
(21:57):
Okay so but this is just trueacross different institutions,
across different industries.
So what this does, includingthe church, universities,
whatever, what this does, thenis it sort of fractures us up
into these different nodes,these different hubs in a
network.
Does, then?
Is it sort of fractures us upinto these different nodes,
these different hubs in anetwork?
And I would argue, then we, atleast in Western culture, there
(22:19):
seem to be sort of four dominantnarratives that show up, and I
got these four again to show mysources here from Mark Sayers,
who's a cultural commentator andpastor who I value a lot, and
so he articulated these firstI'm borrowing totally from him
Moralism, hedonism, therapeuticand nihilism.
And, if I can speak to that realquick before I get into each of
them, what's significant aboutthis for me just in terms of
(22:41):
ministry and Tim I imagineyou'll relate to this I have
this thing that I call mygroundhog day, where I've
literally had this I'll havesomeone come into my office,
meet with me and be like PastorGabe, love you, love this church
, but I'm not sure I believethat this church believes
anymore.
I just think it's kind ofregressive and backwards and we
just really need to get with thetimes in regards to, let's say,
(23:01):
sexuality, gender, whatever,okay, and I'll be like, okay, we
talk, hang out and then offthey go, next person.
Like literally the next personcomes in.
Pastor Gabe, love you, lovethis church, but I'm not sure we
believe anymore.
I just like, I think we need tostart doing the Latin mass and
I need to start wearing a veilto worship and we're just not
traditional, right, it's like,yeah, exact opposite.
(23:23):
It's the exact opposite, butit's like two sides of the exact
same coin.
And so I and I highlight thisbecause I think we there's no
monoculture anymore and so, likethere's no one size fits all
approach to, I think, evangelism, there's no one size fits all
approach to, like how I walkwith different people, because
(23:43):
we kind of unite ourselves tothese different nodes or these
different hubs within this fastnetwork.
But four of the big hubs forthe big narratives that I think
have emerged is our therapeutichedonism, nihilism and moralism.
So real quick.
Moralism would be the like themost important thing in this
(24:05):
world is doing what's right,what's just being on the right
side of history.
Hedonism that one's prettyself-explanatory.
Most important thing ispleasure.
Therapeutic most importantthing is feeling peace and
having an inner sense of calm.
Nihilism is like dude,everything's a mess, it's all
broken, let's just burn it down,right.
So those are these big four.
Do you want?
Speaker 2 (24:28):
me to run it through the diagnostic quicker.
Yeah, no, let's do that.
Yeah, talk through thediagnostic, all the questions we
need to ask, yep.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
Yeah, absolutely Okay .
So, uh, and again, this is fromMark Sayers.
Uh, you can look it up, hecalls it his sin chart.
Uh, but uh, so it works thisway.
So hedonism.
The questions are what is thepurpose of life?
What is sin?
What is the world?
What is its attitude towardsfaith?
What is the solution to themoral ills of the world?
All right, so hedonism.
In response to what's thepurpose of life, it would say
(24:53):
life is pleasure.
Life exists for the pursuit ofhappiness.
What's sin in this approach tolife?
Sin is anything that preventspleasure, anything that
restricts pleasure.
What's the world?
It's a playground.
It exists as a conduit forpleasure.
Mind in particular, what's itsattitude towards faith?
You know, faith is kind of thefuddy-duddies.
They don't want to have fun,they can be too moral.
What's the solution to themoral ills of the world?
(25:14):
Chill out, less rules, morepleasure.
If it doesn't hurt anyone, justdo it, Experience the world,
Right.
So this is your kind of likelibertinism.
Like you do you, I do me.
Let's just pursue the happiness.
That's happiness that's it.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Can we pause right there?
Yeah, let's do it.
I think it's more and moreevident that hedonism is not a
good choice, long term Right,that short-term pleasure can
kill you Too much of a goodthing and you go down the vices
(25:56):
etc will eventually take yourlife, take your health and take,
take your life.
So I think we have enoughrunway now.
Um, because and this is a lotof knowledge, a lot of research,
etc.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
that that says hedonism doesn't work
fundamentally, anything morethere yeah, no, totally well,
and I like here's the thing Ifyou, what we know is this if you
aim for happiness, you willnever get it.
Like it's this thing where,like, if that's what you aim for
, it won't work.
You always have to aim forsomething greater than happiness
, and then you find happinessgets thrown in, right, but.
(26:34):
But I do think, right, right,and even, as like we know this
man, it is a insatiable drivefor people, uh, to to say like
hey, pleasure at all costs, likeall costs, um, and it's like we
just can't learn this lesson.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
But but to that point .
It's not that pleasure, likeChristianity, has a lot to say
about this.
It's not that our emotions, ourfeelings, our pleasure centers
are bad, it's just that they'reperverted.
Yeah Right, yeah, so say moreabout that.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
Well, I mean, yeah, and when here's the like how am
I going to put it this way?
Like we settle for lesserpleasures, right, it's the whole
like CS Lewis line of like,it's like a kid playing in the
slum who can't even grasp theconcept of a vacation at the
beach, right.
And so we just settle formaking mud pies, when in fact,
(27:25):
there's deeper things.
I, one of my favorite ways ofthinking about this is um, oh
man, what's his name?
I can't remember who it is, butthis guy, uh, john Eldridge
wrote wild at heart, some dude,but he, uh, he has this thing
where he talks about theshallows, the Midlands and the
depths, and so he says these arethe three levels to our being
Okay.
And so there's the shallows,which is just like our surface
(27:46):
level concerns what are wegetting for dinner today?
Whatever.
Level concerns what are wegetting for dinner today?
Whatever, okay.
Then there's the midlands, whichare actually relatively deep,
like am I, am I doing the rightthing that I'm called to do?
Am I, am I being a good father?
Am I being a good mom?
Am I, am I a good friend?
Like the, the sort of deeperanxieties we have about our
lives.
And then the depths, uh, hesays, are like these deep,
(28:08):
transcend, transcendent callingswe have towards beauty and
towards truth, and towardsgoodness and towards love.
And what I think happens is weexperience sort of the angst of
the Midlands and we seek tosolve the angst of the Midlands
by going up to the shallows asopposed to pressing down into
the depths, right, so, sopleasure is good, but it's you
(28:32):
know, this is Augustine anddisordered loves, and we just
like seek to find it in theshallows.
That will not deliverultimately, instead of pressing
down in the depths and actuallyfinding a deeper and a truer
pleasure and a more lasting oneby connecting with that which is
truly transcendent.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
Yeah, yeah, with that which is truly transcendent.
Yeah, yeah, the older I get,the simple, deep truths of how
infatuated the God of theuniverse is with me and with us,
his fallen, rebellious people,and then the posture of God
toward me in the face of Christ,the smile of Christ, the
(29:12):
delight of Christ over me that Iam his treasure.
You know, I remember my dad inmy early years, like even
highlighting, like I getemotional even thinking about it
, but highlighting Tim.
You know there's no one exactlylike you and that can be taken
(29:33):
to the, you know, to an extreme.
But you know God gave you allthese gifts and I can't wait to
see and God has delight over youand I want to pass that
obviously onto my kids.
But, like anytime, I stop andpause saying confirmation.
We got parents that go throughwith their kids in fifth and
sixth grade, sometimes seventhand eighth, but at that
developmental season, whenever Italk about their identity and
(29:55):
the pleasure of God over them,like these kids, just like
there's like a depth to identity, Isn't that right?
And the pleasure of God over mesupersedes any other earthly
pleasure, any other earthlyaffirmation that I could
possibly have, and it's out ofthat you could say aiming upward
that trajectory, up to theFather who is above me, who
(30:18):
delights over me, that calls meinto a life of self-sacrifice
and service and humility andlearning and love and joy,
deeper joy than anything in thisworld can ever kind of offer.
So I guess what I'm saying is,as we go up, up isn't going to
satisfy the depth is maybesometimes returning to the
simple but now deeper truths ofwho we are in Jesus and God's
(30:41):
delight over us.
Anything more to say there,Gabe?
Speaker 1 (30:45):
Yeah, man, I mean, it's like it's that second
naivete all over again, right,it is that like, like it is
weird, like the gospel is justtrue and it is the most
important message in the world,and it's like, you know, and
it's like it's like, and as soonas I think like well, well,
surely there there's more, likeI get it.
Jesus died for me, god loves me.
(31:05):
Blah, blah, blah, kumbaya.
Like, what's the?
What's the next level,spiritual stuff?
It's like.
No, actually, it's just comingback to this again and again.
Like that's like, that's thething, and I think I mean, but
there is so much to that, like II say to my kids every night
when I put them to bed I gotthis from someone else too,
everything I steal from someoneelse is but it's as I say I love
(31:27):
you, I'm proud of you, I thinkyou're terrific and I'm glad
you're mine.
And so every night I say that,right, and my, my goal in that,
of course, is that they'dexperienced that from their dad.
But, like, I also want them torecognize, you know, if our
(31:48):
first image of God is our dadlike and we kind of know this
psychologically uh, if that'sour first image of God like,
that's what I want their imageof God to be like now and
forever, Right, and that's whatI want my image of God to be now
and forever.
But I got to fight for it in asense, right, Like cause I am so
prone to believing lies, um,about who God is and what he
thinks of me.
Yeah, Amen.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
So we've gone into I love this.
We've gone into hedonism.
Run the other more, runmoralism through the diagnostic.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
Yeah, let's go.
Moralism, cool, all right.
So moralism, what is thepurpose of life?
Is to do good, to be, just tobe on the right side of history.
What is sin?
Sin is oppression that comesfrom ignorance.
What is the world?
The world is a good place.
Ruined.
The world is good, but ignorantpeople create ignorant
structures that createoppression.
(32:28):
What is this attitude?
What is it?
What is its attitude towardsfaith?
The church is immoral.
Of course it can get in linewith my morals and then it's
okay.
What is the solution to themoral ills of the world?
Virtuous education.
Just fill everyone in on thenew moral code and how to live
that and we'll be good to go.
Yeah, so that's moralism.
Do you want to pause?
Speaker 2 (32:47):
there.
Yeah, I mean, I think we'veseen that in our culture today,
I think in the politicaldiscourse.
It's all moralism right Oneither side of the continuum,
and then people finding theiridentity around, being good, you
know, and and are.
We think we have the ability,if the structure is just right
(33:11):
and I think the church can kindof fall into this too Right, if
we get the right people in theright place to do the right
thing, blah, blah, blah theneverything's going to go.
No, it's God, it's God beingelevated and we're going to mess
it up like we got to get out.
We got to get out the way.
So, yeah, moralism obviouslydoes not satisfy, it doesn't
work.
Long-term History shows uswe're just a train wreck after
generational train wreck aftertrain wreck.
(33:32):
There's nothing new.
People try to put togethertheir human structures and God's
like, and that's why Jesuscomes and he goes.
Well, there's a new king intown.
He's he's pretty old, he goes.
Well, there's a new king intown.
He's pretty old actually, he'sbeen around for quite a while
and he's going to establish abrand new kingdom that has an
entirely different aim.
And you need to get in line, bymy spirit's power, with that
(33:56):
new kingdom.
That's entirely upside down,because your upward trajectory
meaning pride upward trajectoryis not going to be able to
satisfy it.
You better be listening to myvoice and living by my way
rather than the world's way,because, you see, moralism it
just is so unsatisfactory, andpeople that are trying to find
their identity in politics, in aparty, et cetera.
(34:18):
You're going down themoralistic path.
Any more comments there, gabe?
Yeah, yeah, totally no.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
And I think I mean maybe a uh.
One caveat that I'm sure youwould agree with is like and uh
like, unjust systems exist andthere's things that we need to
work on and there's ways inwhich we right Like it's so like
, and that's the whole trickything.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
We're always going to be working on them, that's
right.
We're always going to be until.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
Jesus comes back.
Right, that's right.
Like we can't like Christians,I don't.
I think I can say this I don'tthink Christians can be utopians
Like we.
We just can't be like.
If we recognize the reality ofthe fall, uh, there's just no
way to be a utopian, and, and soto recognize our fallibility,
our limitedness, uh, and, and towork within that, and this is
like it's funny.
(35:01):
I just okay, I said this.
I met with someone not too longago and they were talking about,
hey, you know, there's somepolitical concerns that they're
like, could our church speak alittle bit more to this?
And they're very respectful.
But they mentioned, like youknow, sometimes, you know, I'm
paying attention to the newsduring the week and I'm doing my
thing and seeing all these bigstories and all these injustices
(35:22):
throughout the world, et cetera, and then I'll come to church
that Sunday and we'll be talkingabout lying and it feels like
so small, right, yeah, small,yeah, and right, and, and it's
like, uh, but to me, like itkind of goes back to this
mustard seed conversation where,again, it's not to say we
shouldn't care about systemicinjustice and there's a role for
(35:44):
the church and all that, etc.
I totally agree and there'ssomething to be said for saying
like dude I'm calledfundamentally, first and
foremost, to live as a citizenin the kingdom of god and to
seek to conform my life to hiswill and to the, the life he's
called me to um as a follower ofjesus.
And then from that place, yeah,I want to engage the systems of
the world, but I can only dothat first by recognizing and
(36:06):
this goes back to that identitypiece like who I am as a citizen
in the kingdom of God and thenfrom.
So we always have to berecentering ourselves in that If
we're going to have any hope ofengaging the world.
Apart from just a sort of crudemoralism, that doesn't help
anyone in the long run anyways.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
True, we're not meant to know as much as we know Gabe
.
So, true, human beings, right,and today, we just know way more
about.
If there were let's just usethis If there were a war over in
Ukraine, the other side of theworld, nothing against Russia
and Ukraine.
Like, as a farmer, let's say, Iwas a native American here,
(36:44):
like I, would have no concept.
All I would have no concept.
All I would be concerned aboutis the here and now
hunter-gatherer, all of thosetypes of things.
There's a God.
I hope he loves me, has a kinddisposition toward me, but I
wouldn't be crippled.
This is what I think, and I'mspeaking now as a preacher.
We're both preachers.
It's one of our vocations,right?
Hopefully you have empathy Ifyou're a lay leader listening to
(37:05):
your preacher.
Hopefully you have empathy foryour preacher who just wants to
talk about the Bible in the wayof Jesus and he doesn't have to
comment on everything takingplace in the world.
That's not his role.
He's called to remind you whoyou are a sinner in need of
salvation, centered in Jesus andhe's called by the Spirit's
called to remind you who you area sinner in need of salvation,
centered in Jesus and he'scalled by the Spirit's power to
(37:28):
speak the word that shapes yourheart after the heart of God.
This is our primary and we uselaw, gospel and then Holy Spirit
invitations in our vocations,from our home into our
neighborhood, out into our widerspheres.
We're not meant to know allthat we know and it cripples, it
gives anxiety I can't solve.
So here's, here's a big thingfor me and any kind of leader,
(37:48):
release it.
Maybe you need to physicallyjust like open your hands.
There's a lot going on.
Stop listening to too muchpolitical commentary, for
goodness sake.
Like it's not good for yoursoul.
I give myself maybe five minutesto understand.
10 minutes I get.
I still get actually a paper.
I want to know kind of what.
What's going on?
Old school baby, you know.
Speaker 1 (38:05):
I want to know what's going on, but then after I hear
about Ukraine or whatever.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
I released it to Jesus and then release it to our
government leaders who werehaving the conversations.
I trust you, god, and at theend of the day, is it going to
get harder before it gets better?
Probably.
Am I going to die, yes.
Am I going to be raised againand jesus is going to make all
things new?
Yes, and he's calling me intomy spheres of influence to be
his hands and feet.
Now I don't know that.
I have to, like, make it thatsimple, or else it'd become I
(38:31):
become too anxious about things,right, anything more to say
there?
Speaker 1 (38:35):
yeah, yeah I think that's right.
I mean, I think I mean this tome like speaks to.
It's a very real tension rightnow because, on the one hand,
there's this way in which Ithink you're a hundred percent
Like I, I as a preacher, as acommunicator, like I can't, I
can't be reactive to everythingthat comes through my newsfeed
because there's just way toomuch, and in fact I mean all the
(38:57):
more so these last couple ofmonths, just kind of by design,
like there's just so much thatthere's just no way I can
respond to it all thoughtfully,helpfully, and like I'm not a
policy expert, I don't know allthese things, and at the same
time I just like I never want tofully dip out because while
something may or may not affectme, or I may or may not care
whether or not it affects me, itdoes affect my neighbor, right.
(39:18):
And so I have to figure out,like, how do I not get over,
right Over?
I have to figure out like howdo I not get overwhelmed by this
and run away and how do I stayin it in the right way to love
my neighbor?
But to your point, that's whereI think, like dude, if I lived
in I don't know Belgium in like1300s.
Like dude, I'm just going to.
What am I going to know?
I'm just going to love theperson in front of me, hopefully
(39:40):
.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
It's kind of like that simple and war would maybe
knock on my door and I'd have togo fight because the emperor,
or Caesar or somebody said likeyeah, exactly, I was under.
I was under submission to maybeshift a bit.
I'll ping because I am aware ofwhat's going on, just like
you're aware of what's going on.
Like the start of PresidentTrump's presidency, the second
go around has been fast andfurious and everybody's
commenting on Elon Musk and Doge, department of Government
(40:11):
Efficiency.
I actually, in a sermon justthis last week, referenced Doge,
you know, and how a number ofyou are like super excited about
government efficiency and letyou root out all the corruption
and all that kind of stuff.
But then the preacher's twistis like what happened if Doge
came to your checking account?
and you had a full-time audit ofall the ways you're spending
(40:32):
money.
How would that make Like whoa,is everybody in here tithing?
Is everybody in here perfectlyutilizing the resources?
Is there any frivolous spendingin the Casper account?
You know for sure, like the lawconvicts every single.
So, anyway, that's just onehandle for us.
We need to be aware, but notcrippled by fear or anxiety, I
(40:54):
guess.
Speaker 1 (40:55):
So that's, why.
Speaker 2 (40:55):
I want to read the paper.
I got to be aware, but I don'tneed to comment on absolutely
everything, but some things thatare in the public consciousness
, yeah, I could maybe use it asa way to bring law and gospel to
to the congregation.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
Any comments there, gabe, is that kind of what your
approach is.
Well, that's very similar to myapproach and it will like.
I mean there's certaininflection points where I feel
like it's necessary to say stuff.
You know, like, um, you'reright, but uh, but oftentimes it
is just like how do I put it?
Because the other thing is justlike it goes a little bit back
to that epistemic humility, likedude, I'm just super not an
(41:29):
expert on so many things Likethere's so much I don't know.
And so I mean, to your point,like I just like want to teach
the Bible and proclaim thegospel.
And what's funny is that, likeit does seem I do I too often
think about this too where it'slike there is so much big stuff
that goes on in our world andblah, blah.
And sometimes I like look atthe, the gospel or the work of
(41:52):
proclaiming the gospel, and Ithink like this is kind of silly
, like this kind of a sillysolution to the problems of the
world, like.
And then it's like, yeah, butyou know what man?
What man Like Rome fell, hitlerfell, mussolini fell and Jesus
is still king.
It actually somehow works.
And so I'm just going to rollwith the one who's eternal.
(42:14):
And you know, the empires ofthe world are going to do what
they're going to do.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
Yeah, I have no choice.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
This is the only way, because he's chosen me right.
Just is what it is, all right,cool, I have no choice this is
the only way, because he'schosen me, right Just?
Is what it is All right, cool.
Speaker 2 (42:26):
So what I realize now , because we're big, we have
seven, eight, nine minutes left.
Let's run through the last twodiagnostics and see where the
Holy Spirit leads, and we'regoing to call it a day and we'll
have you back on.
So run through the other two,therapeutic and nihilism.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
Yeah, so therapeutic.
What is the purpose of life?
To feel peace.
What is sin?
The causing of mental oremotional discomfort or pain.
What is the world?
A dangerous place filled withpain, trauma and discomfort.
So do whatever you can to avoidthese things.
What is its attitude towardsfaith?
It can be acceptable as a toolfor personal peace, but that's
it.
If it doesn't provide that,ditch it.
(43:02):
What is the solution to themoral ills of the world?
Harm minimization, create aplace that is safe, where harm
will not be done.
All right, so that's thetherapeutic.
Finally, nihilistic, a quickone.
What is the purpose of life?
To feel nothing.
None of the rest of theseactually work.
What is sin?
Reality, everything is off.
What is the world?
A disaster?
What is its attitude towardsfaith?
(43:22):
Faith is corrupt, but so iseverything else.
What is the solution to themoral ills of the world?
Escape, retreat into games,your bedroom, whatever.
Just escape somewhere.
It's depressing out there.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
Yeah, wow.
Well, thanks for closing withthat one.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
Yeah, yeah, chipper notes.
Speaker 2 (44:01):
Nihilism is so dark man, I kind of have, and I don't
know philosophically if thisresonates, but I think the two
ends of these four are hedonism,hyper focus on pleasure, hyper
focus on self, and the otherextreme is then nihilism and
therapeutic and hedonism aresomewhere, or moralism are
somewhere in the middle.
I'm just trying to make it, I'mtrying to establish my identity
.
There is good in the world andI'm trying to attain toward that
.
And I recognize this internalwrestling that I can't find
(44:26):
peace by anything external orinternal, and so there has to be
one.
This is why I love being aLutheran.
There has to be a one whospeaks, who proclaims, who
preaches, who gives me a brandnew identity and therefore a new
mission in life.
There's a higher voice, becausethese two extremes man,
nihilism and hedonism they donot satisfy.
(44:51):
It's so, so evident.
Anything more to say and maybethis is the last question we can
riff on this how this new wayin the gospel of Jesus Christ
changed the world, especiallythrough the early church, who
were willing to do their maximumpleasure was in Christ, their
identity in Jesus and theirmission to make him known,
(45:13):
through death if necessary, wasso compelling.
Anything more to say about howthe early Christians lived an
entirely new way outside ofaround.
But I obviously speaking tothese four main kind of felt
needs.
Maybe that's a good way toorient it.
Let's go off there, gabe, toclose.
Speaker 1 (45:30):
Well, I think there's a couple of things.
So one I mean, right, you speakof that like extra notes, right
, this, this, uh, outside ofmyself, this righteousness
outside of myself, this actingoutside of myself, that is
applied to me via the gospel,via Christ, um, and and sort of
the need for that I think allthe time is that I do think I
mean here's, here's like the, Ithink, one of the deepest
(45:51):
longings on human in the humanheart that I think has existed
for all of human history anddefinitely exists today, and
that is to be seen fully for whoI am and yet loved anyways.
Right, it's like it is that andthat's that's intimacy.
Right is to be seen fully forwho you are and yet loved
anyways.
Right, it's like it is that andthat's that's intimacy.
Right Is to be seen fully forwho you are and yet loved
anyways.
And I man, if in my, you know,sometimes I'm just like a grumpy
(46:13):
guy and just get mad abouteverything in the world, but in
my like, when I have theoccasional healthy moments, it's
like, I think that's like somany people are just desperate
to be loved at that level, andso it's this grasping to do it,
and so, maybe, and honestly, Ithink part of this has to do
with sort of socioeconomics, andso if I'm from a sort of
(46:35):
wealthier background, I'm goingto go for it in hedonism,
because I actually can getpretty close to pulling it off.
But if I'm not from a wealthierbackground, this is where
nihilism is going to come in.
If we look at these twoextremes, and this is where we
look at the overwhelming deathsof despair and we look at sort
of the opioid crisis and howthat hits in particular, sort of
these sort of poor Appalachiancommunities, that sort of thing,
(46:57):
and so, like both of thesethings are, I think these deep
cries to be loved are these deepcries for a voice outside of me
to tell me that I'm enough, uh,and, and that can only come, I
think, from Christ, and so I'll,let's say, to root that in
church history let me bring thathere is like that's what's the
I think the whole Christianrevolution is is kind of amazing
(47:20):
If we look historically is like, uh, there's one philosopher
like John Russon who he arguesthat Paul really invented the
individual.
Like, like prior to the book ofRomans.
Like, if we think aboutreligion, like, if you're Roman,
you worship the Roman gods.
If you're Babylonian, youworship the Bible like there's
(47:41):
not.
You don't have a personalrelationship with God.
God's not interested in theindividual, the gods are
interested in the corporate.
And then you know St Paul'slike, you got to have faith, you
trust in Jesus right.
So all of a sudden, theindividual gets this incredible
amount of dignity, thisincredible amount of worth, this
incredible amount of valuebecause, yes, christ dies for
(48:01):
the world.
Uh, but we of course receivethat subjectively, via faith and
um and again.
So that's why I think itchanged the world 2000 years ago
and it still changes livestoday, because we're all
searching for that.
Speaker 2 (48:14):
Dude, this has been so amazing.
I got to have you back.
Dude, I we only.
I got so many other otherquestions, places we can go, I
guess to to draw a closing wordon the two extremes.
For the hedonist, you will die.
There's going to be an end topleasure.
And for the nihilist you willlive.
(48:36):
You live now and you will live,and that's law and gospel for
people at those two differentextremes.
So, gabe, you're a gift.
Do people want to connect withyou and your ministry?
How can they do so?
Speaker 1 (48:50):
Yeah, absolutely so, honestly, probably the best way.
So I am on Instagram, I'm onTwitter.
I take every other monthcompletely off of them, but if
you want to at Gabe Casper 1,you check that out, but really
the best way is through mychurch.
So ULC Ann Arbor.
You can go to ulcannarbororg.
Find us on YouTube, find us onInstagram.
We have great comms director,so a lot of good stuff to follow
(49:14):
that way.
That's probably the best way todo it.
Or you can email me my email'son our website.
Speaker 2 (49:28):
I was so much fun.
The time flew and I can't wait.
I'll send you an email.
We'll get another one bookedhere in the next year or so.
It'd be amazing to follow up.
Praying for you.
Proud of you, grateful.
I know not everyone thatlistens to this is in the
Lutheran Church Missouri Synod,but I'm grateful you're a leader
in the LCMS and I pray yourhumble, articulate voice
continues to move out intowherever out into the world to
bring the love and light ofJesus.
(49:50):
Man, you're a gift.
It's a good day.
Go make it a great day Whereverit is you take this in.
Please like, subscribe, comment.
That helps get theJesus-centered, real-world
conversations like we're havinghere on the podcast out to
others who need to be encouraged.
Conversations like we're havinghere on the podcast out to
others who need to be encouraged, need to be called up and out
into their new identity in Jesusand out into the mission to
(50:10):
make Jesus known.
It's a good day.
Go make it a great day.
You rock, gabe.
Thanks so much, buddy.
Awesome Thanks, tim.
Speaker 1 (50:14):
Thanks so much for having me brother Appreciate you
.
It was a joy.
If you.
What we know is this if you aimfor happiness, you will never
get it.
Like it's this thing where,like, if that's what you aim for
, it won't work.
You always have to aim forsomething greater than happiness
, and then you find happinessgets thrown in, right, yeah,
that's it.
We know this man.
It is a insatiable drive forpeople to say like, hey,
pleasure at all costs, like allcosts, and it's like we just
(00:22):
can't learn this lesson.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
But to that point.
It's not that pleasure, likeChristianity, has a lot to say
about this.
It's not that our emotions, ourfeelings, our pleasure centers
are bad, it's just that they'reperverted.
Yeah Right, welcome to the TimWallman Podcast.
(00:47):
I pray.
The joy of Jesus is yourstrength.
I am so juiced by Jesus to talkwith this younger than I leader
, not by my, I don't know by toomuch, but Gabe Casper is in the
house today.
How are you doing, gabe?
I'm doing well.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Thanks so much for having me, Tim.
I'm honored to be with you.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
This is going to be great.
So let me tell you a little bitabout Gabe, and then he can
kind of fill in the gaps.
He's the lead pastor at ULC,university Lutheran Chapel.
Sometimes I was confused and wewere running the same circles.
There's another.
Yeah, this University Lutheran,this ULC, has been around for a
lot longer than the UnitedLeadership Collective.
So University Lutheran Chapelhe's been there for eight years.
Prior to that current role, hespent five years as a church
(01:26):
planner in Austin, texas.
He has a passion for preaching,and teaching has led him to
speak across the country on avariety of theological,
philosophical and culturaltopics.
He has his Master of Divinityfrom my alma mater as well,
concordia Seminary, st Louis Gopreachers and a master's in
Preachers preach baby Preachers.
Gotta preach baby and shoot.
Anyway, he has a master's inphilosophy from Eastern Michigan
(01:48):
University.
In his spare time, gabe enjoysplaying.
Are you still playing soccer?
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Like you're still getting after it playing soccer.
I sub for an over 30 team.
So not too often, but probablyonce a month or so.
Try to get out there Love that.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
He's a reader.
He's into punk rock andcheering on his beloved Packers,
Go Pack.
He and his wife Melissa.
They have three kids.
How old are your kids now?
We got 12, nine and six, Allright, so you're just a handful
of years behind me, with threein high school.
I sent this email to getconnected to you, gabe.
I've admired you, your family.
(02:23):
For those of you who don't know, rob Casper been a longtime
leader in the Lutheran ChurchMissouri Synod and we kind of
have this longer trajectory asleaders in our church, kind of
multi-generational.
But I loved your presentationat the gathering at Ann Arbor,
just outside of Ann Arbor, a fewmonths ago in October, and so I
(02:44):
took copious notes.
Some of our conversation todayis going to be based on that and
we're going to see where theHoly Spirit leads.
That being said, let's starthere.
You have a learner's mindset.
Leaders are learners, alwaysdigging in.
I see on your bookshelf you'vegot a number of different books.
I'm always working throughthree or four different books,
different concepts, kind ofmolding me.
(03:05):
How did you develop thatlearner's mindset over the years
, gabe?
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Yeah, it's a couple of things.
So one like quick story likewhen I was getting started in
ministry I went to a conference,went to a workshop led by Don
Christian, who I think has beenon lead time, and it was a
leadership one, and he just saidthis very simple sentence that
kind of changed my life in thisregard is he said, like your
leadership will grow by twothings by the books you read and
(03:33):
the people you meet.
And I was like just taught aseminary, I'm like all right,
I'll read a lot of books andmeet a lot of people.
You know like let's, let's justgo for that.
And so that did just kind ofinstill in me that like leaders
are learners, leaders arereaders, like let's go.
But then, secondly, I do thinkour cultural context like
demands it, broadly speaking, inthat like it's just like an
(03:57):
absolute information deluge,right.
And so you know, if you thinkback to like seminary days, like
pastor as educator, pastor ascounselor, I think we need, like
pastor as curator, where I wantto read widely and I want to
read deeply for the sake,hopefully, of serving my people.
So it's just like something Ican do and I like to do and so I
want to be able to do that.
(04:18):
And then, third is, like myunique context.
Depending on you know whatmagazine you read, ann Arbor is
often cited as the most educatedcity in the country, and so I
mean, you know it's percentagebased, right?
We're a smaller city comparedto like San Francisco, right?
But nevertheless very, verywell educated.
And so, like I, just like Ikind of have to, contextually,
(04:41):
to just stay on top of my world.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Yeah, I love that.
Here's one of the things topiggyback or go back to what
you'd said about Don.
It's great words of wisdom.
I want to be able as not just aleader, but as a pastor I want
to be able to meet anyone andask certain questions that get
to know them, that expresscuriosity about their
(05:08):
perspective, their worldview,their vocation, and I want to be
able to have an intelligentconversation with almost anyone
about anything.
That doesn't mean I become anexpert.
Far from it, you actuallyrealize how little you know
about a variety, a wide varietyof topics.
You know just enough, like thequestions to ask that make
connection and that you get to.
(05:29):
You get to learn from thisperson in their different
contexts.
Say more about that I that.
That's the humble journey.
There's always more to learn,right, gabe A hundred percent, a
hundred percent, no, I thinkthat's it.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
I mean, it's the whole, like you know, the like,
the Dunning-Kruger effect, whichis okay, okay, so it's like
this psychological sort ofphenomenon.
Uh, these two psychologists,dunning and kruger, dug into it.
We're like take your, like Idon't know, 19 year old freshman
in college who takes theirfirst, let's say, like sociology
class, and all of a sudden theyare an expert on sociology and
(06:02):
like they think they knoweverything and so they're at the
peak of this.
But then the more they learn,the less they realize they
actually know, right, and so itgoes down to they're like man, I
barely know anything.
And then it starts to curve upagain once you're like a PhD.
But that's like it'scomplicated, right, and so so
all that say is like I don'tever, um, I don't ever want to
(06:23):
fall victim to that right.
Like I want to have a certainepistemic humility about me that
says, like there's always moreto learn, there's more than I
can grab hold of.
But to your point, I think,just in terms of connecting with
people like man, like I want tobe able to talk with a student
who walks through my doors,who's like into studying physics
Well, like I didn't even takephysics in high school, all
(06:45):
right, but like can, can I atleast reference something like
that that can be a gatewaytowards conversation, a gateway
to learning more about them, andso I want to try and do that.
Yeah, amen.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Have you, have you ever heard of the kind of going
along with the Dunning?
Is it the Dunning effect?
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Dunning yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Dunning Kr.
Is it the Dunning effect?
Dunning, yeah.
Dunning-kruger effect yeah,I'll have to look at that.
Have you ever looked atpsychologists kind of looking at
the first and second half oflife?
There's a lot of literaturewritten about this, but the
first half of life is the egobeing built up and this positive
sense of self, and humans needthis.
They orient themselves in theworld.
I can contribute.
I'm not a worthless mass ofcells just bumbling through life
(07:29):
, right.
So you need to have this senseof self, but there gets to a
point and hopefully it comessooner than later and I think
probably late adolescence, early20s, in terms of the formation
of a Jesus follower, is probablythe right amount of time.
You need to have someone inyour world that speaks
(07:49):
positively to you but alsomentors you around a posture of
humility that opens doors, thatsays and this is like my grandpa
.
I think everybody needs agrandpa Tim, you're not that big
of a deal.
Don't get the big head, youdon't.
Who even gave you the gifts?
Who even gave you the mind?
Who even gave you my grandpa?
I think everybody needs agrandpa Tim.
You're not that big of a deal.
(08:10):
Don't get the big head youdon't.
Who even gave you the gifts,who even gave you the mind, who
even gave you, you know, thephysical, like it's all God
right, it's all gravy.
So the second half of life, thesecond half of life is just
realizing how joy filled lifecan be when you sacrifice, when
you go on this adventure, whenyou ask a lot of questions, when
you recognize, when you don'thave the answers.
(08:32):
That feels, I feel way morealive when I acknowledge that
than I do by trying topridefully position myself as
the guy in our organization orthe guy you know.
Making this decision Like pridefeels so gross to me, like like
leading from a place of pride,like Tim's way.
(08:55):
Well, like that, what are we?
Even?
Speaker 1 (08:57):
talking about.
We're all just trying to makeit up.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
We're all just making it up as we go, trusting the
Holy spirit to work in andthrough us.
So any kind of comments on thefirst and second half of life,
gabe, yeah, a bunch.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
I mean one when you were speaking there just
reminded me of a certaininterview with the theologian
Stanley Harawas a couple yearsago where he was asked like, hey
, what sin are you wrestlingwith in this interview?
And he said, oh, it's alwayspride.
And he said he's like I thinkthe whole of the Christian life
is learning to live out ofcontrol.
That, like that's actually thepath of sanctification is
(09:29):
learning to live out of controlof myself and to trust and rest
and be dependent upon God andhis grace and his goodness.
Right, so I think that.
And he, of course, is very muchin the second half of his life.
So that's right on.
I think there's also one of myfavorite ways of thinking about
the sort of spiritual life andour growth and development is
Paul Ricoeur is a Frenchtheorist and he talks about
(09:52):
spiritual development in likethree phases.
So and he's not the first oneto do this, but I like his way
of doing it and so the first iswhat he calls the first naivete,
which is just, you're like, didyou receive this faith as a kid
?
Or if you came to faith as anadult?
It's like, whatever churchyou're at, you're like my pastor
knows everything right, so youjust like take this stuff in,
(10:12):
and then, and then there's this,this middle part where he calls
the critical distance, andthat's where you're like science
explains everything or you knowwhatever your sort of
existential issue is with thefaith you received.
you kind of go through that andit looks different for different
people but it's pretty common,like even for those of us who
are pastors.
You went through some level ofthis sort of critical distance.
(10:32):
But then you come to the otherside of that and that's where he
calls the second naivete, whichis where you look back on that
faith you received and you maybedismiss some of it, maybe not,
maybe you grab hold of all of it, but either way it's, it's in a
more profound and a deeper andthen almost a more, uh, relaxed
way.
I don't know if that's quite theright word, but it's just like
(10:54):
yep, you know, like I'm not, Idon't have to defend it, it'll
defend itself.
Like you know, like I'm, like,I'm okay, like it's fine, yeah
yeah, well, I think you'repinging on something here.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
Identity is the thread right.
Recognize is my identity in meor is it in the death of me?
And the elevation of Christ,and that always comes about.
The second stage.
There you say critical distance.
There's a sense of the darknight of the soul.
There's an existential crisisof some.
(11:25):
What used to give satisfactionno longer gives satisfaction,
and the more we acknowledge thatrather than fight against it,
the more we're just likesurrendered maybe is a good word
.
And then moved in to the secondseason, the second naivete with
I love that word there's a relax.
I don't have to defend, I don'thave to fight.
I don't have to fight anymore.
(11:45):
I can live in the freedom.
Maybe this is good as Lutherans, but I can live in the freedom
that comes in my identity inJesus Christ.
Anything more around identityas it relates to those three
stages, Gabe.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot to that, because
there's man, how do we put it?
If we could live in our identity, in in Jesus Christ, like all
the time, like I mean in onesense, okay, we might say at a
sort of I don't know ontologicallevel, we do always exist in
that way, right, Like incorrect,great, but experientially, if
(12:18):
we could live in that right man,the amount of freedom that's
there is incredible.
It's just so hard to stay thereand like live in that and rest
in that continually and and Idon't know the solution to that,
other than it seems to me liketime and suffering, like I like
I think that's maybe it, butthat's where I mean I look at my
(12:40):
grandma who passed away severalyears ago, but she's like the
most mature person of faith Iknow and it was like she's like
small town, wisconsin, like noone's going to know her, no
one's going to know her name,but what she did to bless her
neighbors, what she did to lovethose near her, what she did,
you know right, and the, thesort of depth of faith she had
(13:00):
in Christ, it's like dude,that's what I want.
Like who cares if I'm leading,if I'm writing, if I'm speaking
whatever, like let me be thatkind of a person, right and and
like lean into that yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
Well, god honors that and that's like.
That may seem small, gabe,that's really really big, your
grandma passing on the faith.
I think a lot of times in theAmerican mind, like we're big,
I'm known, I've got a stage,I've got a platform, you know,
I've got a podcast or what Ilike, in our different world we
(13:35):
think that that's significance.
The ultimate significance ispassing on the faith to our
family, to our neighbor, beingthe hands and feet of Jesus,
when no one really cares,there's no applies, it's just
the steady.
It's a steady move in the Jesusdirection that bears fruit
across generations.
Like that appears, especiallywhen we're in such a hyper
individual, you know,consumeristic, celebrity,
(13:56):
infatuated culture.
Like that long move in theJesus direction with no very
little notoriety by the widerworld that feels insignificant.
It appears as if the kingdom ofGod is a small thing, like a
mustard seed that then burrs upinto something that's
significant beyond generations.
Is that right?
I mean we have to.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
Someone said that once.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
Someone did.
Yeah, he's pretty significant,by the way.
Pretty significant, yeah.
So, yeah, I mean that is theJesus direction.
It's losing everything and thenout of that surrender to the
Father's will, all the way tothe point of death on the cross,
resurrection, life comes, andit's way I think Jesus left us.
Let's go to Jesus.
Jesus left us that kind of amodel.
It's going to be good for you.
(14:38):
If I go away, Then I'm going tosend the Holy Spirit and this
thing is going to move in verysmall ways, but it's going to
have multi-generational impact.
You will be my witnessesJerusalem, Judea, Samaria, to
the ends of the earth.
That is the way of Jesus.
It was a very, very small thingthat became very, very big.
And so, lest we go back to thiskind of celebrity, you know,
status, power, pride, move,that's not the way of Jesus.
(15:02):
Anything more to say about theway of Jesus being small Gabe.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
Yeah, man, I mean you're like, I just seem like
here in Philippians to comethrough here, right, and it's
like what's?
Uh?
I mean Tim Keller has this lineback in the day of like, uh,
you know, the way of Jesus isyou go down to come up, right,
you go down to come up andthat's, that's everything.
And I think there is somethingto that in terms of like, I mean
, it's weird, like being apastor in the american church in
(15:27):
the 21st century.
It's like weird like it's justit's totally weird and and I
think like acknowledging thatbecause then it's like you know,
because we can say like allright, it's small, be small, but
then like, uh, you know, we'redoing a podcast right now that's
going to be public on aplatform, right, and it's it's
like, well, do you actuallybelieve what you're saying?
It's like, well, I do, but it'slike I also have an opportunity
(15:49):
to help people and to serveothers and I want to do it from
that place, right.
So it's like it actuallyreminds me of Bonhoeffer and
discipleship he talks about likeall right, so, jesus in the
Sermon on the Mount.
He tells us, like all right, so, jesus in the Sermon on the
Mount.
He tells us like hey, when yougive, don't let your left hand
(16:12):
know what your right hand isdoing.
And simultaneously Jesus saysdo your good works before others
so they may give glory to yourfather in heaven.
And so Bonhoeffer's like whatthe heck, are we supposed to
keep it hidden or not?
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Right, like what do we do with?
Speaker 1 (16:20):
this and Bonhoeffer says the solution is to keep it
hidden from yourself.
That's it Right, Like that'sthe solution.
It's hard, but that's thesolution.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
Well, it's a very unique day in which we live,
where technology's radicallyshifted the church shifted the
church and it's really easyeasier, I would say, than maybe
a few generations.
(16:52):
Pride is ever knocking at yourdoor.
How many views, how many likes,what did they say?
Right?
The reason I love long formpodcast is to mirror healthy
disagreement, debate around orjust ideas kind of interacting,
and I love it because you can't,or it's very hard to be
(17:15):
disingenuous over a longconversation.
You can give a sound bite andhave a shadow side, you can have
a reel and it come across.
But like I've been doing thesenow for so long and I learn how
little the reason I do it is, Ihave one a lot to learn and I
realize how inadequate I am inthis whole thing and so I've got
(17:38):
to have other people that.
I'm serious about that.
I've got to have other peoplethat I'm bumping up against,
that are going to press andchallenge and come from
different contexts andperspectives the biggest.
So I'm going to just dip my toeinto the political waters of
the LCMS we do that from time totime, right.
So my biggest struggle it is mybiggest struggle is people in
(18:00):
leadership positions.
When there's a public debatethat's taking place out in the
marketplace, out in the publicsquare, and leaders will not
come on to have honest, longconversation around a point of
disagreement, that is a gap forus right now.
I don't know what else to say.
(18:22):
You're fearful about beingexposed.
I don't know what your identityis in Jesus.
Why wouldn't we have longerform conversations about areas
of disagreement?
Politicians, this is okay.
Now I'm really going to gothere.
One thing I love now, I don'tlove everything about President
Trump, but what I appreciate isyou know what you're going to
(18:44):
get Like.
The guy is just shooting fromthe hip like all the time.
Does he make mistakes?
Is he bumbly?
Is he a broken, selfish,prideful sinner?
Yeah, but he at least talks inthe public square right, he's at
least talking, so leaders needto talk.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Anyway, let's go there.
No, but you're like tappingright in.
So it's interesting, like today.
I don't know when this will bereleased, but if I can say the
date, we're recording it onfebruary 25th.
Uh, on the the ezra klein show.
Uh, if you know him, new yorktimes columnist, um, okay, he
has.
He had on there today.
Uh, martin gurry, who is likethis guy, who's deeply
influential for me as far asthinking about like information
(19:19):
theory, media theory, and martingurry makes this exact case
that you made.
And again, he's not likepro-Trump Actually, I think he
is maybe now, but he wasn't fora long time and like whatever.
His point is not political.
His point is like, dude, thisguy has adapted to the new media
landscape, whereas back in theday, in sort of a institutional
(19:40):
industrial model of work, ofindustry, of media, whatever.
Yeah, then if you're inleadership, you can hide all
your skeletons.
It's easy to do it, buddy.
The skeletons are all out ofthe closet already, so you may
as well just like walk aroundwith them, right?
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Just acknowledge it.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
And have the conversation with folks.
Uh, cause otherwise we knowyou're hiding stuff, like we
just know.
It's just like, uh, it's,there's too much information now
.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
So I think you're right and I think it is on
leaders, whether it's us incongregations or synodical
leaders, whatever, to be willingto just enter into the mess and
have the long conversations inpublic.
Not maybe, not necessarilyeverything all the time.
We don't have to be reactive,we can be reflective, but, like
transparency builds trust,transparency builds, builds
(20:27):
community.
So yeah, it does, it does Allright?
Speaker 2 (20:29):
Hey, let's get into your talk.
This is so much fun.
Um, I knew, I knew this is theway we'd start, so let's talk
let's talk globalization.
So you talk globalization inyour presentation and people
orienting themselves around fourmain hubs.
I'll highlight them for youMoralism, hedonism, therapeutic
ism.
That's not an is anyway.
(20:50):
And then a anyway, and thennihilism.
So let's go there, Orient us.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
Yeah, so a real quick , like summary.
So, if we go so, the argument Imade in this talk and I'll
summarize it real quick is thatwe've shifted from an age of
institutions andindustrialization to an age of
networks, and so power andinformation was once
consolidated centrally and now,due to what I argue, and this is
(21:17):
from Martin Gurry globalizationand the internet, due to these
two combinations, we live in adecentralized age in which power
has decentralized throughout avast network.
Now, it's not to say therearen't hubs and nodes that are
pretty significant andinfluential compared to others,
but still there's no justcentral like.
So again, the easiest exampleis media.
(21:37):
You go back what time is hard.
70 years now, walter Cronkiteis the most trusted man in
America.
Why?
Because he's part of aninstitution that has access to
all the information, right, sowe're going to trust him.
Well, now we all have access toall the information all the
time.
So there's no trusted voice inAmerica, like because I can get
whatever info I want fromwhatever.
(21:57):
Okay so but this is just trueacross different institutions,
across different industries.
So what this does, includingthe church, universities,
whatever, what this does, thenis it sort of fractures us up
into these different nodes,these different hubs in a
network.
Does, then?
Is it sort of fractures us upinto these different nodes,
these different hubs in anetwork?
And I would argue, then we, atleast in Western culture, there
(22:19):
seem to be sort of four dominantnarratives that show up, and I
got these four again to show mysources here from Mark Sayers,
who's a cultural commentator andpastor who I value a lot, and
so he articulated these firstI'm borrowing totally from him
Moralism, hedonism, therapeuticand nihilism.
And, if I can speak to that realquick before I get into each of
them, what's significant aboutthis for me just in terms of
(22:41):
ministry and Tim I imagineyou'll relate to this I have
this thing that I call mygroundhog day, where I've
literally had this I'll havesomeone come into my office,
meet with me and be like PastorGabe, love you, love this church
, but I'm not sure I believethat this church believes
anymore.
I just think it's kind ofregressive and backwards and we
just really need to get with thetimes in regards to, let's say,
(23:01):
sexuality, gender, whatever,okay, and I'll be like, okay, we
talk, hang out and then offthey go, next person.
Like literally the next personcomes in.
Pastor Gabe, love you, lovethis church, but I'm not sure we
believe anymore.
I just like, I think we need tostart doing the Latin mass and
I need to start wearing a veilto worship and we're just not
traditional, right, it's like,yeah, exact opposite.
(23:23):
It's the exact opposite, butit's like two sides of the exact
same coin.
And so I and I highlight thisbecause I think we there's no
monoculture anymore and so, likethere's no one size fits all
approach to, I think, evangelism, there's no one size fits all
approach to, like how I walkwith different people, because
(23:43):
we kind of unite ourselves tothese different nodes or these
different hubs within this fastnetwork.
But four of the big hubs forthe big narratives that I think
have emerged is our therapeutichedonism, nihilism and moralism.
So real quick.
Moralism would be the like themost important thing in this
(24:05):
world is doing what's right,what's just being on the right
side of history.
Hedonism that one's prettyself-explanatory.
Most important thing ispleasure.
Therapeutic most importantthing is feeling peace and
having an inner sense of calm.
Nihilism is like dude,everything's a mess, it's all
broken, let's just burn it down,right.
So those are these big four.
Do you want?
Speaker 2 (24:28):
me to run it through the diagnostic quicker.
Yeah, no, let's do that.
Yeah, talk through thediagnostic, all the questions we
need to ask, yep.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
Yeah, absolutely Okay .
So, uh, and again, this is fromMark Sayers.
Uh, you can look it up, hecalls it his sin chart.
Uh, but uh, so it works thisway.
So hedonism.
The questions are what is thepurpose of life?
What is sin?
What is the world?
What is its attitude towardsfaith?
What is the solution to themoral ills of the world?
All right, so hedonism.
In response to what's thepurpose of life, it would say
(24:53):
life is pleasure.
Life exists for the pursuit ofhappiness.
What's sin in this approach tolife?
Sin is anything that preventspleasure, anything that
restricts pleasure.
What's the world?
It's a playground.
It exists as a conduit forpleasure.
Mind in particular, what's itsattitude towards faith?
You know, faith is kind of thefuddy-duddies.
They don't want to have fun,they can be too moral.
What's the solution to themoral ills of the world?
(25:14):
Chill out, less rules, morepleasure.
If it doesn't hurt anyone, justdo it, Experience the world,
Right.
So this is your kind of likelibertinism.
Like you do you, I do me.
Let's just pursue the happiness.
That's happiness that's it.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Can we pause right there?
Yeah, let's do it.
I think it's more and moreevident that hedonism is not a
good choice, long term Right,that short-term pleasure can
kill you Too much of a goodthing and you go down the vices
(25:56):
etc will eventually take yourlife, take your health and take,
take your life.
So I think we have enoughrunway now.
Um, because and this is a lotof knowledge, a lot of research,
etc.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
that that says hedonism doesn't work
fundamentally, anything morethere yeah, no, totally well,
and I like here's the thing Ifyou, what we know is this if you
aim for happiness, you willnever get it.
Like it's this thing where,like, if that's what you aim for
, it won't work.
You always have to aim forsomething greater than happiness
, and then you find happinessgets thrown in, right, but.
(26:34):
But I do think, right, right,and even, as like we know this
man, it is a insatiable drivefor people, uh, to to say like
hey, pleasure at all costs, likeall costs, um, and it's like we
just can't learn this lesson.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
But but to that point .
It's not that pleasure, likeChristianity, has a lot to say
about this.
It's not that our emotions, ourfeelings, our pleasure centers
are bad, it's just that they'reperverted.
Yeah Right, yeah, so say moreabout that.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
Well, I mean, yeah, and when here's the like how am
I going to put it this way?
Like we settle for lesserpleasures, right, it's the whole
like CS Lewis line of like,it's like a kid playing in the
slum who can't even grasp theconcept of a vacation at the
beach, right.
And so we just settle formaking mud pies, when in fact,
(27:25):
there's deeper things.
I, one of my favorite ways ofthinking about this is um, oh
man, what's his name?
I can't remember who it is, butthis guy, uh, john Eldridge
wrote wild at heart, some dude,but he, uh, he has this thing
where he talks about theshallows, the Midlands and the
depths, and so he says these arethe three levels to our being
Okay.
And so there's the shallows,which is just like our surface
(27:46):
level concerns what are wegetting for dinner today?
Whatever.
Level concerns what are wegetting for dinner today?
Whatever, okay.
Then there's the midlands, whichare actually relatively deep,
like am I, am I doing the rightthing that I'm called to do?
Am I, am I being a good father?
Am I being a good mom?
Am I, am I a good friend?
Like the, the sort of deeperanxieties we have about our
lives.
And then the depths, uh, hesays, are like these deep,
(28:08):
transcend, transcendent callingswe have towards beauty and
towards truth, and towardsgoodness and towards love.
And what I think happens is weexperience sort of the angst of
the Midlands and we seek tosolve the angst of the Midlands
by going up to the shallows asopposed to pressing down into
the depths, right, so, sopleasure is good, but it's you
(28:32):
know, this is Augustine anddisordered loves, and we just
like seek to find it in theshallows.
That will not deliverultimately, instead of pressing
down in the depths and actuallyfinding a deeper and a truer
pleasure and a more lasting oneby connecting with that which is
truly transcendent.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
Yeah, yeah, with that which is truly transcendent.
Yeah, yeah, the older I get,the simple, deep truths of how
infatuated the God of theuniverse is with me and with us,
his fallen, rebellious people,and then the posture of God
toward me in the face of Christ,the smile of Christ, the
(29:12):
delight of Christ over me that Iam his treasure.
You know, I remember my dad inmy early years, like even
highlighting, like I getemotional even thinking about it
, but highlighting Tim.
You know there's no one exactlylike you and that can be taken
(29:33):
to the, you know, to an extreme.
But you know God gave you allthese gifts and I can't wait to
see and God has delight over youand I want to pass that
obviously onto my kids.
But, like anytime, I stop andpause saying confirmation.
We got parents that go throughwith their kids in fifth and
sixth grade, sometimes seventhand eighth, but at that
developmental season, whenever Italk about their identity and
(29:55):
the pleasure of God over them,like these kids, just like
there's like a depth to identity, Isn't that right?
And the pleasure of God over mesupersedes any other earthly
pleasure, any other earthlyaffirmation that I could
possibly have, and it's out ofthat you could say aiming upward
that trajectory, up to theFather who is above me, who
(30:18):
delights over me, that calls meinto a life of self-sacrifice
and service and humility andlearning and love and joy,
deeper joy than anything in thisworld can ever kind of offer.
So I guess what I'm saying is,as we go up, up isn't going to
satisfy the depth is maybesometimes returning to the
simple but now deeper truths ofwho we are in Jesus and God's
(30:41):
delight over us.
Anything more to say there,Gabe?
Speaker 1 (30:45):
Yeah, man, I mean, it's like it's that second
naivete all over again, right,it is that like, like it is
weird, like the gospel is justtrue and it is the most
important message in the world,and it's like, you know, and
it's like it's like, and as soonas I think like well, well,
surely there there's more, likeI get it.
Jesus died for me, god loves me.
(31:05):
Blah, blah, blah, kumbaya.
Like, what's the?
What's the next level,spiritual stuff?
It's like.
No, actually, it's just comingback to this again and again.
Like that's like, that's thething, and I think I mean, but
there is so much to that, like II say to my kids every night
when I put them to bed I gotthis from someone else too,
everything I steal from someoneelse is but it's as I say I love
(31:27):
you, I'm proud of you, I thinkyou're terrific and I'm glad
you're mine.
And so every night I say that,right, and my, my goal in that,
of course, is that they'dexperienced that from their dad.
But, like, I also want them torecognize, you know, if our
(31:48):
first image of God is our dadlike and we kind of know this
psychologically uh, if that'sour first image of God like,
that's what I want their imageof God to be like now and
forever, Right, and that's whatI want my image of God to be now
and forever.
But I got to fight for it in asense, right, Like cause I am so
prone to believing lies, um,about who God is and what he
thinks of me.
Yeah, Amen.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
So we've gone into I love this.
We've gone into hedonism.
Run the other more, runmoralism through the diagnostic.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
Yeah, let's go.
Moralism, cool, all right.
So moralism, what is thepurpose of life?
Is to do good, to be, just tobe on the right side of history.
What is sin?
Sin is oppression that comesfrom ignorance.
What is the world?
The world is a good place.
Ruined.
The world is good, but ignorantpeople create ignorant
structures that createoppression.
(32:28):
What is this attitude?
What is it?
What is its attitude towardsfaith?
The church is immoral.
Of course it can get in linewith my morals and then it's
okay.
What is the solution to themoral ills of the world?
Virtuous education.
Just fill everyone in on thenew moral code and how to live
that and we'll be good to go.
Yeah, so that's moralism.
Do you want to pause?
Speaker 2 (32:47):
there.
Yeah, I mean, I think we'veseen that in our culture today,
I think in the politicaldiscourse.
It's all moralism right Oneither side of the continuum,
and then people finding theiridentity around, being good, you
know, and and are.
We think we have the ability,if the structure is just right
(33:11):
and I think the church can kindof fall into this too Right, if
we get the right people in theright place to do the right
thing, blah, blah, blah theneverything's going to go.
No, it's God, it's God beingelevated and we're going to mess
it up like we got to get out.
We got to get out the way.
So, yeah, moralism obviouslydoes not satisfy, it doesn't
work.
Long-term History shows uswe're just a train wreck after
generational train wreck aftertrain wreck.
(33:32):
There's nothing new.
People try to put togethertheir human structures and God's
like, and that's why Jesuscomes and he goes.
Well, there's a new king intown.
He's he's pretty old, he goes.
Well, there's a new king intown.
He's pretty old actually, he'sbeen around for quite a while
and he's going to establish abrand new kingdom that has an
entirely different aim.
And you need to get in line, bymy spirit's power, with that
(33:56):
new kingdom.
That's entirely upside down,because your upward trajectory
meaning pride upward trajectoryis not going to be able to
satisfy it.
You better be listening to myvoice and living by my way
rather than the world's way,because, you see, moralism it
just is so unsatisfactory, andpeople that are trying to find
their identity in politics, in aparty, et cetera.
(34:18):
You're going down themoralistic path.
Any more comments there, gabe?
Yeah, yeah, totally no.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
And I think I mean maybe a uh.
One caveat that I'm sure youwould agree with is like and uh
like, unjust systems exist andthere's things that we need to
work on and there's ways inwhich we right Like it's so like
, and that's the whole trickything.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
We're always going to be working on them, that's
right.
We're always going to be until.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
Jesus comes back.
Right, that's right.
Like we can't like Christians,I don't.
I think I can say this I don'tthink Christians can be utopians
Like we.
We just can't be like.
If we recognize the reality ofthe fall, uh, there's just no
way to be a utopian, and, and soto recognize our fallibility,
our limitedness, uh, and, and towork within that, and this is
like it's funny.
(35:01):
I just okay, I said this.
I met with someone not too longago and they were talking about,
hey, you know, there's somepolitical concerns that they're
like, could our church speak alittle bit more to this?
And they're very respectful.
But they mentioned, like youknow, sometimes, you know, I'm
paying attention to the newsduring the week and I'm doing my
thing and seeing all these bigstories and all these injustices
(35:22):
throughout the world, et cetera, and then I'll come to church
that Sunday and we'll be talkingabout lying and it feels like
so small, right, yeah, small,yeah, and right, and, and it's
like, uh, but to me, like itkind of goes back to this
mustard seed conversation where,again, it's not to say we
shouldn't care about systemicinjustice and there's a role for
(35:44):
the church and all that, etc.
I totally agree and there'ssomething to be said for saying
like dude I'm calledfundamentally, first and
foremost, to live as a citizenin the kingdom of god and to
seek to conform my life to hiswill and to the, the life he's
called me to um as a follower ofjesus.
And then from that place, yeah,I want to engage the systems of
the world, but I can only dothat first by recognizing and
(36:06):
this goes back to that identitypiece like who I am as a citizen
in the kingdom of God and thenfrom.
So we always have to berecentering ourselves in that If
we're going to have any hope ofengaging the world.
Apart from just a sort of crudemoralism, that doesn't help
anyone in the long run anyways.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
True, we're not meant to know as much as we know Gabe
.
So, true, human beings, right,and today, we just know way more
about.
If there were let's just usethis If there were a war over in
Ukraine, the other side of theworld, nothing against Russia
and Ukraine.
Like, as a farmer, let's say, Iwas a native American here,
(36:44):
like I, would have no concept.
All I would have no concept.
All I would be concerned aboutis the here and now
hunter-gatherer, all of thosetypes of things.
There's a God.
I hope he loves me, has a kinddisposition toward me, but I
wouldn't be crippled.
This is what I think, and I'mspeaking now as a preacher.
We're both preachers.
It's one of our vocations,right?
Hopefully you have empathy Ifyou're a lay leader listening to
(37:05):
your preacher.
Hopefully you have empathy foryour preacher who just wants to
talk about the Bible in the wayof Jesus and he doesn't have to
comment on everything takingplace in the world.
That's not his role.
He's called to remind you whoyou are a sinner in need of
salvation, centered in Jesus andhe's called by the Spirit's
called to remind you who you area sinner in need of salvation,
centered in Jesus and he'scalled by the Spirit's power to
(37:28):
speak the word that shapes yourheart after the heart of God.
This is our primary and we uselaw, gospel and then Holy Spirit
invitations in our vocations,from our home into our
neighborhood, out into our widerspheres.
We're not meant to know allthat we know and it cripples, it
gives anxiety I can't solve.
So here's, here's a big thingfor me and any kind of leader,
(37:48):
release it.
Maybe you need to physicallyjust like open your hands.
There's a lot going on.
Stop listening to too muchpolitical commentary, for
goodness sake.
Like it's not good for yoursoul.
I give myself maybe five minutesto understand.
10 minutes I get.
I still get actually a paper.
I want to know kind of what.
What's going on?
Old school baby, you know.
Speaker 1 (38:05):
I want to know what's going on, but then after I hear
about Ukraine or whatever.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
I released it to Jesus and then release it to our
government leaders who werehaving the conversations.
I trust you, god, and at theend of the day, is it going to
get harder before it gets better?
Probably.
Am I going to die, yes.
Am I going to be raised againand jesus is going to make all
things new?
Yes, and he's calling me intomy spheres of influence to be
his hands and feet.
Now I don't know that.
I have to, like, make it thatsimple, or else it'd become I
(38:31):
become too anxious about things,right, anything more to say
there?
Speaker 1 (38:35):
yeah, yeah I think that's right.
I mean, I think I mean this tome like speaks to.
It's a very real tension rightnow because, on the one hand,
there's this way in which Ithink you're a hundred percent
Like I, I as a preacher, as acommunicator, like I can't, I
can't be reactive to everythingthat comes through my newsfeed
because there's just way toomuch, and in fact I mean all the
(38:57):
more so these last couple ofmonths, just kind of by design,
like there's just so much thatthere's just no way I can
respond to it all thoughtfully,helpfully, and like I'm not a
policy expert, I don't know allthese things, and at the same
time I just like I never want tofully dip out because while
something may or may not affectme, or I may or may not care
whether or not it affects me, itdoes affect my neighbor, right.
(39:18):
And so I have to figure out,like, how do I not get over,
right Over?
I have to figure out like howdo I not get overwhelmed by this
and run away and how do I stayin it in the right way to love
my neighbor?
But to your point, that's whereI think, like dude, if I lived
in I don't know Belgium in like1300s.
Like dude, I'm just going to.
What am I going to know?
I'm just going to love theperson in front of me, hopefully
(39:40):
.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
It's kind of like that simple and war would maybe
knock on my door and I'd have togo fight because the emperor,
or Caesar or somebody said likeyeah, exactly, I was under.
I was under submission to maybeshift a bit.
I'll ping because I am aware ofwhat's going on, just like
you're aware of what's going on.
Like the start of PresidentTrump's presidency, the second
go around has been fast andfurious and everybody's
commenting on Elon Musk and Doge, department of Government
(40:11):
Efficiency.
I actually, in a sermon justthis last week, referenced Doge,
you know, and how a number ofyou are like super excited about
government efficiency and letyou root out all the corruption
and all that kind of stuff.
But then the preacher's twistis like what happened if Doge
came to your checking account?
and you had a full-time audit ofall the ways you're spending
(40:32):
money.
How would that make Like whoa,is everybody in here tithing?
Is everybody in here perfectlyutilizing the resources?
Is there any frivolous spendingin the Casper account?
You know for sure, like the lawconvicts every single.
So, anyway, that's just onehandle for us.
We need to be aware, but notcrippled by fear or anxiety, I
(40:54):
guess.
Speaker 1 (40:55):
So that's, why.
Speaker 2 (40:55):
I want to read the paper.
I got to be aware, but I don'tneed to comment on absolutely
everything, but some things thatare in the public consciousness
, yeah, I could maybe use it asa way to bring law and gospel to
to the congregation.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
Any comments there, gabe, is that kind of what your
approach is.
Well, that's very similar to myapproach and it will like.
I mean there's certaininflection points where I feel
like it's necessary to say stuff.
You know, like, um, you'reright, but uh, but oftentimes it
is just like how do I put it?
Because the other thing is justlike it goes a little bit back
to that epistemic humility, likedude, I'm just super not an
(41:29):
expert on so many things Likethere's so much I don't know.
And so I mean, to your point,like I just like want to teach
the Bible and proclaim thegospel.
And what's funny is that, likeit does seem I do I too often
think about this too where it'slike there is so much big stuff
that goes on in our world andblah, blah.
And sometimes I like look atthe, the gospel or the work of
(41:52):
proclaiming the gospel, and Ithink like this is kind of silly
, like this kind of a sillysolution to the problems of the
world, like.
And then it's like, yeah, butyou know what man?
What man Like Rome fell, hitlerfell, mussolini fell and Jesus
is still king.
It actually somehow works.
And so I'm just going to rollwith the one who's eternal.
(42:14):
And you know, the empires ofthe world are going to do what
they're going to do.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
Yeah, I have no choice.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
This is the only way, because he's chosen me right.
Just is what it is, all right,cool, I have no choice this is
the only way, because he'schosen me, right Just?
Is what it is All right, cool.
Speaker 2 (42:26):
So what I realize now , because we're big, we have
seven, eight, nine minutes left.
Let's run through the last twodiagnostics and see where the
Holy Spirit leads, and we'regoing to call it a day and we'll
have you back on.
So run through the other two,therapeutic and nihilism.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
Yeah, so therapeutic.
What is the purpose of life?
To feel peace.
What is sin?
The causing of mental oremotional discomfort or pain.
What is the world?
A dangerous place filled withpain, trauma and discomfort.
So do whatever you can to avoidthese things.
What is its attitude towardsfaith?
It can be acceptable as a toolfor personal peace, but that's
it.
If it doesn't provide that,ditch it.
(43:02):
What is the solution to themoral ills of the world?
Harm minimization, create aplace that is safe, where harm
will not be done.
All right, so that's thetherapeutic.
Finally, nihilistic, a quickone.
What is the purpose of life?
To feel nothing.
None of the rest of theseactually work.
What is sin?
Reality, everything is off.
What is the world?
A disaster?
What is its attitude towardsfaith?
(43:22):
Faith is corrupt, but so iseverything else.
What is the solution to themoral ills of the world?
Escape, retreat into games,your bedroom, whatever.
Just escape somewhere.
It's depressing out there.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
Yeah, wow.
Well, thanks for closing withthat one.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
Yeah, yeah, chipper notes.
Speaker 2 (44:01):
Nihilism is so dark man, I kind of have, and I don't
know philosophically if thisresonates, but I think the two
ends of these four are hedonism,hyper focus on pleasure, hyper
focus on self, and the otherextreme is then nihilism and
therapeutic and hedonism aresomewhere, or moralism are
somewhere in the middle.
I'm just trying to make it, I'mtrying to establish my identity
.
There is good in the world andI'm trying to attain toward that
.
And I recognize this internalwrestling that I can't find
(44:26):
peace by anything external orinternal, and so there has to be
one.
This is why I love being aLutheran.
There has to be a one whospeaks, who proclaims, who
preaches, who gives me a brandnew identity and therefore a new
mission in life.
There's a higher voice, becausethese two extremes man,
nihilism and hedonism they donot satisfy.
(44:51):
It's so, so evident.
Anything more to say and maybethis is the last question we can
riff on this how this new wayin the gospel of Jesus Christ
changed the world, especiallythrough the early church, who
were willing to do their maximumpleasure was in Christ, their
identity in Jesus and theirmission to make him known,
(45:13):
through death if necessary, wasso compelling.
Anything more to say about howthe early Christians lived an
entirely new way outside ofaround.
But I obviously speaking tothese four main kind of felt
needs.
Maybe that's a good way toorient it.
Let's go off there, gabe, toclose.
Speaker 1 (45:30):
Well, I think there's a couple of things.
So one I mean, right, you speakof that like extra notes, right
, this, this, uh, outside ofmyself, this righteousness
outside of myself, this actingoutside of myself, that is
applied to me via the gospel,via Christ, um, and and sort of
the need for that I think allthe time is that I do think I
mean here's, here's like the, Ithink, one of the deepest
(45:51):
longings on human in the humanheart that I think has existed
for all of human history anddefinitely exists today, and
that is to be seen fully for whoI am and yet loved anyways.
Right, it's like it is that andthat's that's intimacy.
Right is to be seen fully forwho you are and yet loved
anyways.
Right, it's like it is that andthat's that's intimacy.
Right Is to be seen fully forwho you are and yet loved
anyways.
And I man, if in my, you know,sometimes I'm just like a grumpy
(46:13):
guy and just get mad abouteverything in the world, but in
my like, when I have theoccasional healthy moments, it's
like, I think that's like somany people are just desperate
to be loved at that level, andso it's this grasping to do it,
and so, maybe, and honestly, Ithink part of this has to do
with sort of socioeconomics, andso if I'm from a sort of
(46:35):
wealthier background, I'm goingto go for it in hedonism,
because I actually can getpretty close to pulling it off.
But if I'm not from a wealthierbackground, this is where
nihilism is going to come in.
If we look at these twoextremes, and this is where we
look at the overwhelming deathsof despair and we look at sort
of the opioid crisis and howthat hits in particular, sort of
these sort of poor Appalachiancommunities, that sort of thing,
(46:57):
and so, like both of thesethings are, I think these deep
cries to be loved are these deepcries for a voice outside of me
to tell me that I'm enough, uh,and, and that can only come, I
think, from Christ, and so I'll,let's say, to root that in
church history let me bring thathere is like that's what's the
I think the whole Christianrevolution is is kind of amazing
(47:20):
If we look historically is like, uh, there's one philosopher
like John Russon who he arguesthat Paul really invented the
individual.
Like, like prior to the book ofRomans.
Like, if we think aboutreligion, like, if you're Roman,
you worship the Roman gods.
If you're Babylonian, youworship the Bible like there's
(47:41):
not.
You don't have a personalrelationship with God.
God's not interested in theindividual, the gods are
interested in the corporate.
And then you know St Paul'slike, you got to have faith, you
trust in Jesus right.
So all of a sudden, theindividual gets this incredible
amount of dignity, thisincredible amount of worth, this
incredible amount of valuebecause, yes, christ dies for
(48:01):
the world.
Uh, but we of course receivethat subjectively, via faith and
um and again.
So that's why I think itchanged the world 2000 years ago
and it still changes livestoday, because we're all
searching for that.
Speaker 2 (48:14):
Dude, this has been so amazing.
I got to have you back.
Dude, I we only.
I got so many other otherquestions, places we can go, I
guess to to draw a closing wordon the two extremes.
For the hedonist, you will die.
There's going to be an end topleasure.
And for the nihilist you willlive.
(48:36):
You live now and you will live,and that's law and gospel for
people at those two differentextremes.
So, gabe, you're a gift.
Do people want to connect withyou and your ministry?
How can they do so?
Speaker 1 (48:50):
Yeah, absolutely so, honestly, probably the best way.
So I am on Instagram, I'm onTwitter.
I take every other monthcompletely off of them, but if
you want to at Gabe Casper 1,you check that out, but really
the best way is through mychurch.
So ULC Ann Arbor.
You can go to ulcannarbororg.
Find us on YouTube, find us onInstagram.
We have great comms director,so a lot of good stuff to follow
(49:14):
that way.
That's probably the best way todo it.
Or you can email me my email'son our website.
Speaker 2 (49:28):
I was so much fun.
The time flew and I can't wait.
I'll send you an email.
We'll get another one bookedhere in the next year or so.
It'd be amazing to follow up.
Praying for you.
Proud of you, grateful.
I know not everyone thatlistens to this is in the
Lutheran Church Missouri Synod,but I'm grateful you're a leader
in the LCMS and I pray yourhumble, articulate voice
continues to move out intowherever out into the world to
bring the love and light ofJesus.
(49:50):
Man, you're a gift.
It's a good day.
Go make it a great day Whereverit is you take this in.
Please like, subscribe, comment.
That helps get theJesus-centered, real-world
conversations like we're havinghere on the podcast out to
others who need to be encouraged.
Conversations like we're havinghere on the podcast out to
others who need to be encouraged, need to be called up and out
into their new identity in Jesusand out into the mission to
(50:10):
make Jesus known.
It's a good day.
Go make it a great day.
You rock, gabe.
Thanks so much, buddy.
Awesome Thanks, tim.
Speaker 1 (50:14):
Thanks so much for having me brother Appreciate you
.
It was a joy.
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