October 9, 2024 • 27 mins
What if the American Christian church and public education could unite to address today's most pressing societal challenges? Join us for an eye-opening conversation with Kurt Rohrs, a governing board member of the Chandler Unified School District, as we navigate the turbulent waters of social disorder, violence, and class divisions. Drawing from historical reformation movements, Kurt offers fresh insights into the significance of liberty and the First Amendment in safeguarding religious practices within secular school systems. This episode delves into the delicate balance of discussing Christian beliefs in educational settings amidst the rise of cancel culture, while also emphasizing the vital role of leadership in fostering open dialogue.
Is social media the modern-day addiction we should fear the most? We tackle this provocative question by exploring the impact of technology on parenting and communication, especially in the wake of COVID-19. Kurt shares his perspectives on the challenges posed by social media addiction, likened to a dangerously addictive substance, and underscores the importance of parental control over children's device use. Together, we unpack the role of pastors and churches in addressing cultural issues like rising anxiety and moral decline, advocating for clear parental boundaries to combat the link between youth-related crimes and technology use.
Can schools focus solely on education while respecting family autonomy on sensitive matters like gender identity? The episode moves into contemporary issues, advocating for schools to remain neutral and respect family privacy in navigating topics like the LGBTQ+ conversation. We reflect on the importance of moral leadership in the home and church, where such guidance should primarily originate. With a nod to our diverse audience, including many Lutherans, we encourage steadfastness in proclaiming the word of God, and we extend our gratitude to Kurt for his invaluable contributions. Don't miss this thought-provoking dialogue that invites you to share, like, and subscribe for more meaningful conversations aimed at reestablishing faith as a vital force for good in our communities.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Welcome to the American Reformation podcast,
tim Allman.
Here I pray.
The joy of Jesus is yourstrength as we get the privilege
of learning today with KurtRoars.
Let me tell you a little bitabout Kurt.
Kurt and I met actually at aChristianity, church and
politics kind of seminar that wehosted here at Christ
Greenfield a couple months agoand we talked to kingdom
(00:32):
theology.
We talked about the church inthe world and the church's
perspective toward an evershifting culture today and
especially as it relates to thenext generation and parenting
teens.
So let me tell you why Kurt iswonderful to speak on this topic
today.
He is currently serving as agoverning board member of the
(00:52):
Chandler Unified School Districtand he wants me to let you know
he's appearing todayrepresenting his personal views,
not those of the governingboard.
Kurt is a father of threechildren, all educated in
Chandler's excellent schools.
They've all gone to college.
His oldest now is aprofessional.
Of three children, all educatedin Chandler's excellent schools
They've all gone to college.
His oldest now is aprofessional praise, be to God.
He has a passion for qualityeducation and, as a parent, was
a regular speaker at districtboard meetings.
(01:14):
He's also worked on thedistrict citizens budget
committee for 15 years, praiseGod.
Kurt also worked extensivelywith kids as a coach and we
share that, kurt.
I'm currently a football coachright now of my son's high
school team as a coach for afterschool sports and volunteered
at ICAN tutoring as a homeworkassistant.
There he was a certifiedsubstitute teacher and worked
(01:35):
regularly in Chandler UnifiedSchool District.
Kurt is active as a publicpolicy committee member and he
has man with the ChandlerChamber of Commerce championing
career development pathways forstudents.
He's also a member of theRotary Club.
Shout out to Rotary.
My grandpa, kurt, was a bigtime Rotarian and praise be to
(01:57):
God.
Kurt attended a graduate degreein chemistry, holds an MBA in
finance and he's currentlyrunning his own business in
Chandler as a financial advisor.
So, kurt, how are you doingtoday?
Buddy?
Thanks for taking the time onthe podcast.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Well, good morning, it's nice to be here.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Good to be with you.
So this is a standard openingquestion on the American
Reformation podcast.
As you look at the broaderchurch you just said you were
speaking at one of our largerchurches here in the East Valley
as you look at the broaderAmerican Christian church, kurt,
how are you praying forreformation, brother?
Speaker 2 (02:32):
The reformation at least in this country, trying to
research it a little bitstarted about 100 years ago, but
particularly for the samereasons that we're facing today
social disorder, violence in thethe community and a lot of
class divisions.
I think it's about looking atliberty and freedom for people,
particularly the freedom topractice your religion.
(02:53):
So one thing I think that a lotof people misunderstand is that
we have a First Amendment rightto practice our religion
without interference from thegovernment, and that's the way
the First Amendment actuallyreads it's government not
interfering in religion.
It's not religion notinterfering in government.
And the last part of it is Ithink and I really appreciate
(03:18):
you doing this people need tostart talking.
I think they've been shut offfrom each other.
I think they've been shut offfrom each other.
There's a lot of cancel culturegoing on, where certain points
of view are just discouragedfrom being discussed, and a lot
of those have to do with theAmerican Christian church.
So trying to push this forwardand get this conversation going
(03:38):
again, I think is extremelyimportant.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
So what do you attribute that kind of cancel
culture to?
Rise of social media, thetribal culture that can exist
not just in the public spherebut also in the Christian sphere
as well?
I'm in a denomination right nowwhere we even struggle talking
with one another arounddifferences of opinion, maybe
around how the church doesworship or just practices their
(04:06):
life in the community in general.
We struggle to disagreeagreeably today and to listen
twice as much two ears, onemouth right, listen twice as
much as we speak.
What do you attribute some ofthose struggles right now to?
Because I think, if you get downto just the everyday common man
, I don't know that they'reexperiencing.
I think they you get down tojust the everyday common man,
like I don't know that they'reexperiencing, I think I think
(04:27):
they're just trying to make itlike you know, the family just
caring for the next generationof kids.
But then they look at thepublic sphere and it's like why
do leaders struggle to engageone another?
I think it's a leadershipproblem.
Kurt, to be quite honest, I'dlove to get your take on it.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
You know a lot of people recognize this that
secularism has been pretty wellestablished in the public
schools and a lot of this is a,I guess, a doctrine arising from
, I guess, the political leftyou might even say it's Marxist
(05:06):
doctrine who finds AmericanChristianity itself to be a
threat to what they're trying topush forward.
So the greatest challenge isactually being able to speak
about our beliefs and ourfundamental approach to right
and wrong, and we base that onthe Bible, and you can't even
say Bible in the schools anymore.
(05:26):
So there's something very wrong, I think, with that.
You know, the Bible is in onesense a historical document, but
it's also a social document.
So why would we have othersocial views being presented
without presenting that onewhich is probably the
fundamental social view thatfounded the country, that one
which is probably thefundamental social view that
founded the country?
Good example is school prayer.
(05:47):
Why can't there be prayer inschools?
Okay, the government's notstill the interfering of the
establishment of a religion orthe free practice of religion,
but they do.
Most schools in this countrywere founded as religious
schools, as the churches tookthe lead in educating children.
So greatest challenge, I think,is reestablishing our faith as
(06:16):
a major force in our lives andthen it's actually a force for
good and not discouraging it.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Yeah, amen, and the government, and since our
schools are run by thegovernment, the government has a
responsibility to comeunderneath the fourth
commandment, which is childrenhonoring their father and mother
.
They work as an extension of theoffice of mother and father,
and I think one of the thingsthat frustrates folks is this
(06:47):
rhetoric that we get to parentyour kids.
We know what's best for yourkids, and this is where there's
a lot of anger from a lot ofparents when they don't know
exactly what their kids arelearning, nor even some of the
choices, the indoctrinationthat's taken place in some of
our, some of our schools.
And I think I try to talk aboutthis in a reasonable way,
(07:09):
because I don't think anger andI know you do as well Anger does
not produce the righteousnessof God.
But we also have to be clearabout where we see, see some
gaps and you're, you'recircumventing, overpowering
maybe your, your realm andyou're stepping over and maybe
on God's primary office, whichis that office, especially in
(07:31):
the horizontal realm, thatoffice of mother and father,
that office of the family.
That is our primary vocation aschildren of God.
Any comments there though, kurt, especially in the public
sphere?
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Well, two of them.
Any comments there, though,occurred, especially in the
public sphere.
Well, two of them.
So we're in Arizona.
Arizona state law says veryspecifically that parents have
the right to direct theupbringing of the minor child.
It's Arizona revised statute1-601 and 602.
It is state law that theparents raise the children Okay.
(08:08):
My second comment is that is,educators.
We're in the business ofteaching kids how to read.
Okay, we're not in the businessof teaching kids how to live
their lives.
That I rely on the pastors ofthe church, no matter what
church, to provide thatleadership of teaching people,
parents and their children, howto lead a righteous life.
(08:29):
That's not for the schools todo.
We do reading, writing,arithmetic and prepare them to
be productive adults.
That does not include religions, or even quasi-religions, like,
say, a woke agenda would be.
That's just not in our mandate.
(08:50):
So I think we need to get backin our lane and let the churches
do the raising of kidsaccording to whatever moral and
ethical principles that theyneed to do.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
Hmm, that's good.
You mentioned the word wokethat gets thrown around quite
precipitously in our culturetoday.
Have you seen some woke you sayit's semi-religious movements
even in the Chandler Districthere in the East Valley of
Phoenix?
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Well, there are people that try to push, I guess
, political and social doctrinesin the schools, and that's what
, and that's my point aboutgetting outside your lane
Schools.
Public schools should beneutral.
It's just not our mandate to godo that and that's why I would
rely on the churches to do that.
They always have done that.
(09:41):
They always have done that.
Now, canceling that voice, Ithink, has been very detrimental
, you know, to the raising ofchildren and reinforcing what
parents want to do in the homes.
It's not our job to reach inthe home and raise the kid, it's
just not.
And I see that encroach fromtime to time, even though it
(10:08):
seems to be a pushback now, atthis point that you know public
school has gone too far with alot of this.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
So I am kind of expecting you know the pastors
in the community to step up andshow the leadership on working
with parents and how to raisekids.
From that viewpoint, yeah, no,that's, that's a big time call
for us.
Today we have the privilege ofwalking alongside parents at all
different ages and stages ofdevelopment of their children
and we do not take and I'm justspeaking as a pastor in a local
church, we do not take thatresponsibility lightly at all.
(10:38):
It is our primary call todisciple the next generation to
grow up into functional,successful, if you will,
contributing members of society.
More than that, to have even ahigher view, contributors to the
expansion of God's kingdomthat's filled with love and
grace and passing on the faithin Jesus Christ, the crucified
(11:00):
and risen one, to the nextgeneration.
Like, if we abdicate thatresponsibility, we are totally
missing.
Have you read the new book?
It's new-ish.
The Anxious Generation, kurt.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
I haven't read it, but it seems to be a very
popular book and actually Ispoke on that yesterday at our
parents group.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
What did you share?
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Well, from the secular side and from the policy
side, it's my view and talkingto a lot of people over the last
few weeks about this thatsocial media is the main cause
of teen anxiety and depression,because they're continually
being bombarded by emotional andpsychological manipulation by
(11:45):
various people, either for thegood or for the bad.
Maybe they just want to selltheir products, maybe they want
to push a certain point of view?
Not really, isn't it?
Kids, particularly young kids,do not have any defense against
this.
They're not adults, they don'tknow how to handle these things.
They're easily influenced.
I would say.
The second part is that socialmedia addiction.
(12:06):
And as I brought that conceptup, people were starting to say,
yeah, this has a lot aspects ofan addiction.
You can't get them off it, it'sdelivered through the cell
phone.
So social media is the heroin,the cell phone is the needle,
and trying to control cell phoneusage may be one of the best
parenting techniques to startfighting back against this.
(12:27):
If your kids are on their cellphones all the time, they're
being barred by other views thatyou may or may not like, but as
a parent, it's your job toraise your children and if you
abdicate that responsibility,somebody else is going to do it,
and that, I think, is what'sgoing on right now.
So we need, I think, raiseawareness on that might be the
most useful thing 100% agree.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
I use an app called Accountable2You and a lot of
times it's used to have, youknow, men maybe help.
They may have a porn addictionor something like that, but it's
a really good tool for memonitoring what sites my kids
are coming to.
And just this morning I getthis email that says
questionable activity and it wassome goofy goofy YouTube site
(13:12):
and I talked to my daughterabout it like she's not walked
through that and she goes Dad,it just popped up and I and I
believe her to be quite honest,you know, like it just the ad
just popped up right between herlittle teeny bopper show that
she was watching.
I mean, there is robust evil inthe world and I think that's
one of the uniting commentstoday for the church.
We have to identify what isfalse, what is evil, what is not
(13:36):
helpful.
And we identify what is false,what is evil, what is not
helpful, and we must speak intoit.
A lot of times, pastors, Ithink in the past and I'm a
historian, right, so I look backI'm like wow, a generation ago
you know, 80, some years agopastors were confronted World
War II and.
Hitler's Nazi and I'm a Lutheranright, so there's a lot of
Lutherans there.
(13:56):
In that context.
We didn't speak about what wasgoing on in culture, and maybe
we did, but it was too little,too too late, and I don't I
don't want that to be a part ofour story Like I pray that
pastors can talk about theissues of this day, the, the
rise in anxiety, the abortion,murder, all of these cultural
(14:18):
ills, and that we can stand onthe law of God but then move
through the law of God to thegrace of God, the new identity
that is ours.
We don't have to be governed bythe ways of this world.
We've been given the spirit ofthe crucified and risen Jesus,
so we can metanoia, set ourminds above, and leaders have to
take the role right now to helppeople think clearly.
Parents think clearly andparents to then set loving,
(14:40):
clear boundaries for their kidsabout what human thriving is
going to look like heart, body,mind and spirit.
How can pastors, from yourperspective, engage in public
discourse in a helpful way?
Kurt?
Speaker 2 (14:52):
I think you need to support parents, and what came
out of yesterday's discussion isa very good discussion was that
, as parents, you can't beafraid of your kids.
Okay, who's running thehousehold here?
The kid or you?
No, it's good and if you say,for instance, they get on their
cell phones again and are doingthings they probably shouldn't
be doing and you take that cellphone away.
(15:13):
A lot of parents are veryafraid to do that because the
kids will throw a fit first ofall, and I hate you and go to
the room and not talk to themfor a week or whatever.
You know that's part ofparenting and you can't be
afraid of that.
You need to take charge ofwhat's going on in your own
household.
And for instance, I would say,getting back to cell phones
again there is no reason for akid to be on their cell phone
(15:35):
past nine o'clock at night.
Cell phones again there is noreason for a kid to be on their
cell phone past nine o'clock atnight.
There's no reason at all.
Because in talking to lawenforcement and, believe me,
local law enforcement is verymuch involved in this, because a
lot of the crimes that arecommitted at the teenage level
involve a cell phone somehow andsocial media somehow.
So they see it as very much ofa threat, but they totally most
(15:58):
of the predators online areonline after 10 o'clock because
they know the parents won't bemonitoring the phone and that's
a very, very serious problem.
So I would think with thepastors, getting parents
together, having parents talkwith one another and reinforce
each other in the courage, thecourage to start parenting your
(16:20):
kids and getting back on theright path, because right now
somebody else is parenting themand you don't know who they are.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
Oh, that's so good.
And have you seen a shift,though, in parenting over your
lifetime, from, you know,parents being and there's
there's probably a pendulum hereto a degree like parents being
very, very hard?
Uh, I'm definitely not yourfriend.
I'm here to set clearboundaries and raise you up.
You know, I'm kind of goinginto the other extreme, whereas
(16:49):
today, like, maybe, enmeshmentis taking place.
My identity is so tied to whatmy kids do.
I think this is maybe the touchpoint that if I, if I offend my
kid, then, man, are they goingto?
Are they going to cancel,cancel me from their life?
And and maybe because the kidsare so vulnerable right, this,
this anti-fragility that you cantalk about our kids are so so
(17:12):
we don't want to do anything,say anything or set any kind of
boundary that could put them,put them over the edge, and and
then you've got folks to say,well, look at the rise in
suicide rates and mental healthcrisis, I don't want to do
anything to kind of kind of, youknow, tip them in that negative
direction.
Have you, have you experiencedkind of a shift of some sort,
especially in the last Well,since 2010, really, and the
(17:36):
iPhone have you seen somethingsubstantial there?
Speaker 2 (17:38):
Kurt as a father.
Yeah, the COVID was a big break.
I think COVID was a big breakin our just social experience,
particularly our kids.
Kids were home all the time andthen they were online.
But one thing I brought upyesterday and I'm going to
reiterate that this is parentsneed to talk to each other.
(17:59):
So if you, as a parent, set arule you can't be on your cell
phone past nine o'clock and theparents of all your child's
friends you talk to them and say, yeah, we all have the same
rule, and the kid can't comeback and say, why are you
picking on me?
Because this is a general rulefor all the parents in our
(18:20):
parent group and this is whatwe're going to enforce.
So you're going to unite asparents to push back on this,
and that's going to have a fargreater effect than trying to do
this one on one no-transcript.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Well, shout out to parent groups and maybe schools
that say we're all going to stophaving our kids be on their
cell phone.
Nine o'clock is the limit, thecurfew, it's done.
Man, wouldn't that be cool if alot of schools and churches
just kind of collectively, maybeall is think about just doing
that.
The Christ's Creed rule is nocell phone usage.
(19:25):
Parents too what would thatlook like?
Parents too, After nine o'clock.
We don't lead by the law, welead from love and freedom.
But I think that would be anice freedom giving law that
could be enacted in ourrespective communities.
Thank you for that, Kurt.
All right Coming down thehomest respective communities.
Thank you for that, Kurt.
All right, coming down thehomestretch here.
Thank you for the generosity oftime.
As you look at Jesus, what'syour favorite story of Jesus
(19:49):
engaging in public kind ofpolitical discourse and maybe a
story that some folks wouldn'tidentify as public discourse,
Kurt.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
That's a really interesting question.
I'm glad you asked because itactually came up yesterday in
our discussion.
The favorite story, at leastthe one that I'm concentrating
now, is the story of the womanat the well, the Samaritan woman
at the well, when Jesus justwalked up and asked for a drink
and she was very well, very wellaware that he was a Jew and she
was a Samaritan, and they justdid not talk.
(20:21):
Very similar to some of thepolitical discourse that we have
here.
People don't even talk to eachother, they don't trust each
other, they don't like eachother, they assume the worst of
each other.
And he started a discourse andspoke to her and at that point,
you know his disciples wouldwalk and say she's a Samaritan.
Why are you talking to her?
You know his disciples wouldwalk and say she's a Samaritan.
(20:43):
Why are you talking to her?
It's because I want to have herunderstand what we're trying to
do and in that conversation,convinced her.
Convinced her that he was Jesus.
Yet he was a son of God and hewas coming to deliver a message.
And how did she respond?
She ran down the hill to telleveryone in the village, Told
everybody right, Okay.
(21:04):
So I thought that was a very,very powerful message, and one
that I reflect on quite a bit.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
No, I think that's awesome.
I mean Jesus speaking truth togo on both to Pharisees, the
Jewish leaders, sadducees andthen Herod Pilate, right, you
would have no authority unlessit were given you from above.
He places himself under thegoverning authorities all the
(21:32):
way to the point of death.
For you and for me.
Jesus spoke truth to powerconsistently.
That's because he's God in theflesh, right, he had the courage
to do it.
So I think the same thing istrue today, where families and
pastors see things that arecountered to God's word, that
are leading away from humanthriving, countered to God's
(21:54):
laws that he embedded not justin the 10 commandments but his
law that was written on everyhuman heart.
We know, we've been, we've beenmade to know what is good and
how God created us to thrive.
And maybe the last question Imean I think that the gender,
the gender struggle today, theLGBTQ plus conversation is is
(22:17):
one of the foremostconversations that we need to
have, because I think one of thegreatest lies is God did not
create you.
You know your mind and youremotions can say one thing, but
your body says another thing.
Now I have a lot of empathy foryoung people who are struggling
because the assault on the mindand our worldview is so
(22:39):
pervasive today.
But God created us male andfemale In his image.
He created us very distinctlythat way and there's a major lie
today from the seed of Satanthat leads us to question our
primary identity, one as a childof God and then two as we
relate to the world, fearfullyand wonderfully made as a male
(23:01):
and a female.
Any thoughts to thatconversation?
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Yeah, and two very particular ones.
We have 42,000 kids in theChandler district, second
biggest district in the state.
When I look at these kids, Isee them all as CUSD kids.
I don't care where they camefrom.
Our job, like I said before, isto teach them to read, okay,
not how to live their lives.
That you know.
(23:25):
The gender issues that we'vebeen facing, I believe, are
private family issues.
Okay, it's between the kid,their parent and if they want to
deal with the church, it'swhatever counseling they go to
to get help with this, and it'sa very difficult issue.
That's a parenting choice.
Okay, they have theresponsibility and the authority
(23:49):
to do that not the school.
We're not going to reach intothe home and counsel the kid as
school employees.
It's not our job.
There is no mandate, either inlaw or ethically, that we do
that.
When I said stay in our lane, Imeant stay in our lane.
We're neutral on that.
We're just there to teach them.
(24:09):
They show up to school.
We teach them to read, that'sit.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
That's good.
That's good.
I can't I love that.
I can't be neutral on it, but Iappreciate your comment on it.
(24:43):
To be sure, as we get to speakas leaders into the home right,
that is definitely the church'sresponsibility, as families care
for families and leaders leadin the family.
So thank you so much for yourgenerosity of time.
I'm praying for you.
We need more Jesus followers inall of our public school
districts.
I thank you for engaging in thediscourse, for not being
fearful of it, for using yourgifts to bless the next
generation in the ChandlerSchool District.
And I'm praying too.
You know I get to lead aprivate school.
I'm praying for more schoolchoice.
I'm praying that as competitionrises, all boats rise right, as
(25:03):
we have a number of differentschools there we didn't even get
into.
We're kind of the wild west ofschool choice here with ACSTO
and the ESA, the tax credits,all of those types of things,
and praying that all of thatcontinues as we all grow up into
Jesus and really everybody, Ithink, in leadership, whether
you're at a Chandler Schoolboard or a board member or just
(25:23):
a parent or a pastor, we allwant the same thing.
I pray For good to prevail overevil and for our kids to know
they're loved and for them togrow up heart, body, mind,
spirit to use their gifts tobless the next generation.
You know human beings arehardwired, actually, by God to
care about things beyondthemselves.
Right, we are created heart,body, mind, spirit and we care.
(25:47):
You care the reason you'redoing this.
You care about the nextgeneration, the following
generation after that, growingup to be godly women and men.
For the sake of the nextgeneration that comes after them
, we've got to stop thinking soindividual, so time-bound, right
now.
We've got to think beyond usright now, and this is why we
have to have theseJesus-centered conversations,
(26:08):
centered in the truth of Jesus,how he created us to thrive this
side of eternity.
It's a good day.
Go make it a great day.
This is American ReformationPodcast Kurt.
If people want to connect withyou, how can they do so, brother
?
American Reformation PodcastKurt.
If people want to connect withyou, how?
Speaker 2 (26:20):
can they do so?
Brother, I can give you aprivate email, which will be
KurtBorges11 at gmailcom.
K-u-r-t-r-o-h-r-s-11 atgmailcom, and I do really
appreciate dialogue.
I want to commend you forstepping up.
This is what I'm asking is thepastor to step up to show the
(26:41):
moral leadership that's where itbelongs in the home and in the
church, not in the schools.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
I love it.
I love it.
This is the AmericanReformation podcast.
Sharing is caring, like,subscribe, comment, wherever it
is you take in these podcastsand we promise to have great
conversations.
You know there's a lot ofLutherans that listen to these
podcasts.
I know you don't share that,but we share this one thing
Jesus is Lord and he reigns overall things and he's going to
come back to make all things newand until that day comes, may
(27:08):
he find his people faithful,proclaiming his word.
It's a good day.
Go make it a great day.
Thanks, kurt, wonderful work.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Okay, thank you.
Welcome to the American Reformation podcast,
tim Allman.
Here I pray.
The joy of Jesus is yourstrength as we get the privilege
of learning today with KurtRoars.
Let me tell you a little bitabout Kurt.
Kurt and I met actually at aChristianity, church and
politics kind of seminar that wehosted here at Christ
Greenfield a couple months agoand we talked to kingdom
(00:32):
theology.
We talked about the church inthe world and the church's
perspective toward an evershifting culture today and
especially as it relates to thenext generation and parenting
teens.
So let me tell you why Kurt iswonderful to speak on this topic
today.
He is currently serving as agoverning board member of the
(00:52):
Chandler Unified School Districtand he wants me to let you know
he's appearing todayrepresenting his personal views,
not those of the governingboard.
Kurt is a father of threechildren, all educated in
Chandler's excellent schools.
They've all gone to college.
His oldest now is aprofessional.
Of three children, all educatedin Chandler's excellent schools
They've all gone to college.
His oldest now is aprofessional praise, be to God.
He has a passion for qualityeducation and, as a parent, was
a regular speaker at districtboard meetings.
(01:14):
He's also worked on thedistrict citizens budget
committee for 15 years, praiseGod.
Kurt also worked extensivelywith kids as a coach and we
share that, kurt.
I'm currently a football coachright now of my son's high
school team as a coach for afterschool sports and volunteered
at ICAN tutoring as a homeworkassistant.
There he was a certifiedsubstitute teacher and worked
(01:35):
regularly in Chandler UnifiedSchool District.
Kurt is active as a publicpolicy committee member and he
has man with the ChandlerChamber of Commerce championing
career development pathways forstudents.
He's also a member of theRotary Club.
Shout out to Rotary.
My grandpa, kurt, was a bigtime Rotarian and praise be to
(01:57):
God.
Kurt attended a graduate degreein chemistry, holds an MBA in
finance and he's currentlyrunning his own business in
Chandler as a financial advisor.
So, kurt, how are you doingtoday?
Buddy?
Thanks for taking the time onthe podcast.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Well, good morning, it's nice to be here.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Good to be with you.
So this is a standard openingquestion on the American
Reformation podcast.
As you look at the broaderchurch you just said you were
speaking at one of our largerchurches here in the East Valley
as you look at the broaderAmerican Christian church, kurt,
how are you praying forreformation, brother?
Speaker 2 (02:32):
The reformation at least in this country, trying to
research it a little bitstarted about 100 years ago, but
particularly for the samereasons that we're facing today
social disorder, violence in thethe community and a lot of
class divisions.
I think it's about looking atliberty and freedom for people,
particularly the freedom topractice your religion.
(02:53):
So one thing I think that a lotof people misunderstand is that
we have a First Amendment rightto practice our religion
without interference from thegovernment, and that's the way
the First Amendment actuallyreads it's government not
interfering in religion.
It's not religion notinterfering in government.
And the last part of it is Ithink and I really appreciate
(03:18):
you doing this people need tostart talking.
I think they've been shut offfrom each other.
I think they've been shut offfrom each other.
There's a lot of cancel culturegoing on, where certain points
of view are just discouragedfrom being discussed, and a lot
of those have to do with theAmerican Christian church.
So trying to push this forwardand get this conversation going
(03:38):
again, I think is extremelyimportant.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
So what do you attribute that kind of cancel
culture to?
Rise of social media, thetribal culture that can exist
not just in the public spherebut also in the Christian sphere
as well?
I'm in a denomination right nowwhere we even struggle talking
with one another arounddifferences of opinion, maybe
around how the church doesworship or just practices their
(04:06):
life in the community in general.
We struggle to disagreeagreeably today and to listen
twice as much two ears, onemouth right, listen twice as
much as we speak.
What do you attribute some ofthose struggles right now to?
Because I think, if you get downto just the everyday common man
, I don't know that they'reexperiencing.
I think they you get down tojust the everyday common man,
like I don't know that they'reexperiencing, I think I think
(04:27):
they're just trying to make itlike you know, the family just
caring for the next generationof kids.
But then they look at thepublic sphere and it's like why
do leaders struggle to engageone another?
I think it's a leadershipproblem.
Kurt, to be quite honest, I'dlove to get your take on it.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
You know a lot of people recognize this that
secularism has been pretty wellestablished in the public
schools and a lot of this is a,I guess, a doctrine arising from
, I guess, the political leftyou might even say it's Marxist
(05:06):
doctrine who finds AmericanChristianity itself to be a
threat to what they're trying topush forward.
So the greatest challenge isactually being able to speak
about our beliefs and ourfundamental approach to right
and wrong, and we base that onthe Bible, and you can't even
say Bible in the schools anymore.
(05:26):
So there's something very wrong, I think, with that.
You know, the Bible is in onesense a historical document, but
it's also a social document.
So why would we have othersocial views being presented
without presenting that onewhich is probably the
fundamental social view thatfounded the country, that one
which is probably thefundamental social view that
founded the country?
Good example is school prayer.
(05:47):
Why can't there be prayer inschools?
Okay, the government's notstill the interfering of the
establishment of a religion orthe free practice of religion,
but they do.
Most schools in this countrywere founded as religious
schools, as the churches tookthe lead in educating children.
So greatest challenge, I think,is reestablishing our faith as
(06:16):
a major force in our lives andthen it's actually a force for
good and not discouraging it.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Yeah, amen, and the government, and since our
schools are run by thegovernment, the government has a
responsibility to comeunderneath the fourth
commandment, which is childrenhonoring their father and mother
.
They work as an extension of theoffice of mother and father,
and I think one of the thingsthat frustrates folks is this
(06:47):
rhetoric that we get to parentyour kids.
We know what's best for yourkids, and this is where there's
a lot of anger from a lot ofparents when they don't know
exactly what their kids arelearning, nor even some of the
choices, the indoctrinationthat's taken place in some of
our, some of our schools.
And I think I try to talk aboutthis in a reasonable way,
(07:09):
because I don't think anger andI know you do as well Anger does
not produce the righteousnessof God.
But we also have to be clearabout where we see, see some
gaps and you're, you'recircumventing, overpowering
maybe your, your realm andyou're stepping over and maybe
on God's primary office, whichis that office, especially in
(07:31):
the horizontal realm, thatoffice of mother and father,
that office of the family.
That is our primary vocation aschildren of God.
Any comments there though, kurt, especially in the public
sphere?
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Well, two of them.
Any comments there, though,occurred, especially in the
public sphere.
Well, two of them.
So we're in Arizona.
Arizona state law says veryspecifically that parents have
the right to direct theupbringing of the minor child.
It's Arizona revised statute1-601 and 602.
It is state law that theparents raise the children Okay.
(08:08):
My second comment is that is,educators.
We're in the business ofteaching kids how to read.
Okay, we're not in the businessof teaching kids how to live
their lives.
That I rely on the pastors ofthe church, no matter what
church, to provide thatleadership of teaching people,
parents and their children, howto lead a righteous life.
(08:29):
That's not for the schools todo.
We do reading, writing,arithmetic and prepare them to
be productive adults.
That does not include religions, or even quasi-religions, like,
say, a woke agenda would be.
That's just not in our mandate.
(08:50):
So I think we need to get backin our lane and let the churches
do the raising of kidsaccording to whatever moral and
ethical principles that theyneed to do.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
Hmm, that's good.
You mentioned the word wokethat gets thrown around quite
precipitously in our culturetoday.
Have you seen some woke you sayit's semi-religious movements
even in the Chandler Districthere in the East Valley of
Phoenix?
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Well, there are people that try to push, I guess
, political and social doctrinesin the schools, and that's what
, and that's my point aboutgetting outside your lane
Schools.
Public schools should beneutral.
It's just not our mandate to godo that and that's why I would
rely on the churches to do that.
They always have done that.
(09:41):
They always have done that.
Now, canceling that voice, Ithink, has been very detrimental
, you know, to the raising ofchildren and reinforcing what
parents want to do in the homes.
It's not our job to reach inthe home and raise the kid, it's
just not.
And I see that encroach fromtime to time, even though it
(10:08):
seems to be a pushback now, atthis point that you know public
school has gone too far with alot of this.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
So I am kind of expecting you know the pastors
in the community to step up andshow the leadership on working
with parents and how to raisekids.
From that viewpoint, yeah, no,that's, that's a big time call
for us.
Today we have the privilege ofwalking alongside parents at all
different ages and stages ofdevelopment of their children
and we do not take and I'm justspeaking as a pastor in a local
church, we do not take thatresponsibility lightly at all.
(10:38):
It is our primary call todisciple the next generation to
grow up into functional,successful, if you will,
contributing members of society.
More than that, to have even ahigher view, contributors to the
expansion of God's kingdomthat's filled with love and
grace and passing on the faithin Jesus Christ, the crucified
(11:00):
and risen one, to the nextgeneration.
Like, if we abdicate thatresponsibility, we are totally
missing.
Have you read the new book?
It's new-ish.
The Anxious Generation, kurt.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
I haven't read it, but it seems to be a very
popular book and actually Ispoke on that yesterday at our
parents group.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
What did you share?
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Well, from the secular side and from the policy
side, it's my view and talkingto a lot of people over the last
few weeks about this thatsocial media is the main cause
of teen anxiety and depression,because they're continually
being bombarded by emotional andpsychological manipulation by
(11:45):
various people, either for thegood or for the bad.
Maybe they just want to selltheir products, maybe they want
to push a certain point of view?
Not really, isn't it?
Kids, particularly young kids,do not have any defense against
this.
They're not adults, they don'tknow how to handle these things.
They're easily influenced.
I would say.
The second part is that socialmedia addiction.
(12:06):
And as I brought that conceptup, people were starting to say,
yeah, this has a lot aspects ofan addiction.
You can't get them off it, it'sdelivered through the cell
phone.
So social media is the heroin,the cell phone is the needle,
and trying to control cell phoneusage may be one of the best
parenting techniques to startfighting back against this.
(12:27):
If your kids are on their cellphones all the time, they're
being barred by other views thatyou may or may not like, but as
a parent, it's your job toraise your children and if you
abdicate that responsibility,somebody else is going to do it,
and that, I think, is what'sgoing on right now.
So we need, I think, raiseawareness on that might be the
most useful thing 100% agree.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
I use an app called Accountable2You and a lot of
times it's used to have, youknow, men maybe help.
They may have a porn addictionor something like that, but it's
a really good tool for memonitoring what sites my kids
are coming to.
And just this morning I getthis email that says
questionable activity and it wassome goofy goofy YouTube site
(13:12):
and I talked to my daughterabout it like she's not walked
through that and she goes Dad,it just popped up and I and I
believe her to be quite honest,you know, like it just the ad
just popped up right between herlittle teeny bopper show that
she was watching.
I mean, there is robust evil inthe world and I think that's
one of the uniting commentstoday for the church.
We have to identify what isfalse, what is evil, what is not
(13:36):
helpful.
And we identify what is false,what is evil, what is not
helpful, and we must speak intoit.
A lot of times, pastors, Ithink in the past and I'm a
historian, right, so I look backI'm like wow, a generation ago
you know, 80, some years agopastors were confronted World
War II and.
Hitler's Nazi and I'm a Lutheranright, so there's a lot of
Lutherans there.
(13:56):
In that context.
We didn't speak about what wasgoing on in culture, and maybe
we did, but it was too little,too too late, and I don't I
don't want that to be a part ofour story Like I pray that
pastors can talk about theissues of this day, the, the
rise in anxiety, the abortion,murder, all of these cultural
(14:18):
ills, and that we can stand onthe law of God but then move
through the law of God to thegrace of God, the new identity
that is ours.
We don't have to be governed bythe ways of this world.
We've been given the spirit ofthe crucified and risen Jesus,
so we can metanoia, set ourminds above, and leaders have to
take the role right now to helppeople think clearly.
Parents think clearly andparents to then set loving,
(14:40):
clear boundaries for their kidsabout what human thriving is
going to look like heart, body,mind and spirit.
How can pastors, from yourperspective, engage in public
discourse in a helpful way?
Kurt?
Speaker 2 (14:52):
I think you need to support parents, and what came
out of yesterday's discussion isa very good discussion was that
, as parents, you can't beafraid of your kids.
Okay, who's running thehousehold here?
The kid or you?
No, it's good and if you say,for instance, they get on their
cell phones again and are doingthings they probably shouldn't
be doing and you take that cellphone away.
(15:13):
A lot of parents are veryafraid to do that because the
kids will throw a fit first ofall, and I hate you and go to
the room and not talk to themfor a week or whatever.
You know that's part ofparenting and you can't be
afraid of that.
You need to take charge ofwhat's going on in your own
household.
And for instance, I would say,getting back to cell phones
again there is no reason for akid to be on their cell phone
(15:35):
past nine o'clock at night.
Cell phones again there is noreason for a kid to be on their
cell phone past nine o'clock atnight.
There's no reason at all.
Because in talking to lawenforcement and, believe me,
local law enforcement is verymuch involved in this, because a
lot of the crimes that arecommitted at the teenage level
involve a cell phone somehow andsocial media somehow.
So they see it as very much ofa threat, but they totally most
(15:58):
of the predators online areonline after 10 o'clock because
they know the parents won't bemonitoring the phone and that's
a very, very serious problem.
So I would think with thepastors, getting parents
together, having parents talkwith one another and reinforce
each other in the courage, thecourage to start parenting your
(16:20):
kids and getting back on theright path, because right now
somebody else is parenting themand you don't know who they are.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
Oh, that's so good.
And have you seen a shift,though, in parenting over your
lifetime, from, you know,parents being and there's
there's probably a pendulum hereto a degree like parents being
very, very hard?
Uh, I'm definitely not yourfriend.
I'm here to set clearboundaries and raise you up.
You know, I'm kind of goinginto the other extreme, whereas
(16:49):
today, like, maybe, enmeshmentis taking place.
My identity is so tied to whatmy kids do.
I think this is maybe the touchpoint that if I, if I offend my
kid, then, man, are they goingto?
Are they going to cancel,cancel me from their life?
And and maybe because the kidsare so vulnerable right, this,
this anti-fragility that you cantalk about our kids are so so
(17:12):
we don't want to do anything,say anything or set any kind of
boundary that could put them,put them over the edge, and and
then you've got folks to say,well, look at the rise in
suicide rates and mental healthcrisis, I don't want to do
anything to kind of kind of, youknow, tip them in that negative
direction.
Have you, have you experiencedkind of a shift of some sort,
especially in the last Well,since 2010, really, and the
(17:36):
iPhone have you seen somethingsubstantial there?
Speaker 2 (17:38):
Kurt as a father.
Yeah, the COVID was a big break.
I think COVID was a big breakin our just social experience,
particularly our kids.
Kids were home all the time andthen they were online.
But one thing I brought upyesterday and I'm going to
reiterate that this is parentsneed to talk to each other.
(17:59):
So if you, as a parent, set arule you can't be on your cell
phone past nine o'clock and theparents of all your child's
friends you talk to them and say, yeah, we all have the same
rule, and the kid can't comeback and say, why are you
picking on me?
Because this is a general rulefor all the parents in our
(18:20):
parent group and this is whatwe're going to enforce.
So you're going to unite asparents to push back on this,
and that's going to have a fargreater effect than trying to do
this one on one no-transcript.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Well, shout out to parent groups and maybe schools
that say we're all going to stophaving our kids be on their
cell phone.
Nine o'clock is the limit, thecurfew, it's done.
Man, wouldn't that be cool if alot of schools and churches
just kind of collectively, maybeall is think about just doing
that.
The Christ's Creed rule is nocell phone usage.
(19:25):
Parents too what would thatlook like?
Parents too, After nine o'clock.
We don't lead by the law, welead from love and freedom.
But I think that would be anice freedom giving law that
could be enacted in ourrespective communities.
Thank you for that, Kurt.
All right Coming down thehomest respective communities.
Thank you for that, Kurt.
All right, coming down thehomestretch here.
Thank you for the generosity oftime.
As you look at Jesus, what'syour favorite story of Jesus
(19:49):
engaging in public kind ofpolitical discourse and maybe a
story that some folks wouldn'tidentify as public discourse,
Kurt.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
That's a really interesting question.
I'm glad you asked because itactually came up yesterday in
our discussion.
The favorite story, at leastthe one that I'm concentrating
now, is the story of the womanat the well, the Samaritan woman
at the well, when Jesus justwalked up and asked for a drink
and she was very well, very wellaware that he was a Jew and she
was a Samaritan, and they justdid not talk.
(20:21):
Very similar to some of thepolitical discourse that we have
here.
People don't even talk to eachother, they don't trust each
other, they don't like eachother, they assume the worst of
each other.
And he started a discourse andspoke to her and at that point,
you know his disciples wouldwalk and say she's a Samaritan.
Why are you talking to her?
You know his disciples wouldwalk and say she's a Samaritan.
(20:43):
Why are you talking to her?
It's because I want to have herunderstand what we're trying to
do and in that conversation,convinced her.
Convinced her that he was Jesus.
Yet he was a son of God and hewas coming to deliver a message.
And how did she respond?
She ran down the hill to telleveryone in the village, Told
everybody right, Okay.
(21:04):
So I thought that was a very,very powerful message, and one
that I reflect on quite a bit.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
No, I think that's awesome.
I mean Jesus speaking truth togo on both to Pharisees, the
Jewish leaders, sadducees andthen Herod Pilate, right, you
would have no authority unlessit were given you from above.
He places himself under thegoverning authorities all the
(21:32):
way to the point of death.
For you and for me.
Jesus spoke truth to powerconsistently.
That's because he's God in theflesh, right, he had the courage
to do it.
So I think the same thing istrue today, where families and
pastors see things that arecountered to God's word, that
are leading away from humanthriving, countered to God's
(21:54):
laws that he embedded not justin the 10 commandments but his
law that was written on everyhuman heart.
We know, we've been, we've beenmade to know what is good and
how God created us to thrive.
And maybe the last question Imean I think that the gender,
the gender struggle today, theLGBTQ plus conversation is is
(22:17):
one of the foremostconversations that we need to
have, because I think one of thegreatest lies is God did not
create you.
You know your mind and youremotions can say one thing, but
your body says another thing.
Now I have a lot of empathy foryoung people who are struggling
because the assault on the mindand our worldview is so
(22:39):
pervasive today.
But God created us male andfemale In his image.
He created us very distinctlythat way and there's a major lie
today from the seed of Satanthat leads us to question our
primary identity, one as a childof God and then two as we
relate to the world, fearfullyand wonderfully made as a male
(23:01):
and a female.
Any thoughts to thatconversation?
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Yeah, and two very particular ones.
We have 42,000 kids in theChandler district, second
biggest district in the state.
When I look at these kids, Isee them all as CUSD kids.
I don't care where they camefrom.
Our job, like I said before, isto teach them to read, okay,
not how to live their lives.
That you know.
(23:25):
The gender issues that we'vebeen facing, I believe, are
private family issues.
Okay, it's between the kid,their parent and if they want to
deal with the church, it'swhatever counseling they go to
to get help with this, and it'sa very difficult issue.
That's a parenting choice.
Okay, they have theresponsibility and the authority
(23:49):
to do that not the school.
We're not going to reach intothe home and counsel the kid as
school employees.
It's not our job.
There is no mandate, either inlaw or ethically, that we do
that.
When I said stay in our lane, Imeant stay in our lane.
We're neutral on that.
We're just there to teach them.
(24:09):
They show up to school.
We teach them to read, that'sit.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
That's good.
That's good.
I can't I love that.
I can't be neutral on it, but Iappreciate your comment on it.
(24:43):
To be sure, as we get to speakas leaders into the home right,
that is definitely the church'sresponsibility, as families care
for families and leaders leadin the family.
So thank you so much for yourgenerosity of time.
I'm praying for you.
We need more Jesus followers inall of our public school
districts.
I thank you for engaging in thediscourse, for not being
fearful of it, for using yourgifts to bless the next
generation in the ChandlerSchool District.
And I'm praying too.
You know I get to lead aprivate school.
I'm praying for more schoolchoice.
I'm praying that as competitionrises, all boats rise right, as
(25:03):
we have a number of differentschools there we didn't even get
into.
We're kind of the wild west ofschool choice here with ACSTO
and the ESA, the tax credits,all of those types of things,
and praying that all of thatcontinues as we all grow up into
Jesus and really everybody, Ithink, in leadership, whether
you're at a Chandler Schoolboard or a board member or just
(25:23):
a parent or a pastor, we allwant the same thing.
I pray For good to prevail overevil and for our kids to know
they're loved and for them togrow up heart, body, mind,
spirit to use their gifts tobless the next generation.
You know human beings arehardwired, actually, by God to
care about things beyondthemselves.
Right, we are created heart,body, mind, spirit and we care.
(25:47):
You care the reason you'redoing this.
You care about the nextgeneration, the following
generation after that, growingup to be godly women and men.
For the sake of the nextgeneration that comes after them
, we've got to stop thinking soindividual, so time-bound, right
now.
We've got to think beyond usright now, and this is why we
have to have theseJesus-centered conversations,
(26:08):
centered in the truth of Jesus,how he created us to thrive this
side of eternity.
It's a good day.
Go make it a great day.
This is American ReformationPodcast Kurt.
If people want to connect withyou, how can they do so, brother
?
American Reformation PodcastKurt.
If people want to connect withyou, how?
Speaker 2 (26:20):
can they do so?
Brother, I can give you aprivate email, which will be
KurtBorges11 at gmailcom.
K-u-r-t-r-o-h-r-s-11 atgmailcom, and I do really
appreciate dialogue.
I want to commend you forstepping up.
This is what I'm asking is thepastor to step up to show the
(26:41):
moral leadership that's where itbelongs in the home and in the
church, not in the schools.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
I love it.
I love it.
This is the AmericanReformation podcast.
Sharing is caring, like,subscribe, comment, wherever it
is you take in these podcastsand we promise to have great
conversations.
You know there's a lot ofLutherans that listen to these
podcasts.
I know you don't share that,but we share this one thing
Jesus is Lord and he reigns overall things and he's going to
come back to make all things newand until that day comes, may
(27:08):
he find his people faithful,proclaiming his word.
It's a good day.
Go make it a great day.
Thanks, kurt, wonderful work.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Okay, thank you.
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