February 26, 2025 • 64 mins
The episode explores the core characteristics of effective pastoral leadership, emphasizing the need for confidence in faith and strong emotional intelligence. Bill discusses the importance of knowing congregants by name and engaging them in ministry, highlighting the dangers of clericalism and advocating for a culture where all believers actively participate in nurturing their faith.
• Characteristics of pastoral leadership: confidence in faith, strong communication, and care for congregants
• Emotional intelligence as a vital skill for pastoring
• The significance of knowing names to build community and connection
• Empowering the priesthood of all believers to participate in ministry
• Critique of clericalism and its impact on the church
• Jesus as the ultimate model of servant leadership and engagement
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Bring the Word of God to them in such a way that they
are fulfilled number one intheir own faith, that they are
confident that they can go aheadand do something, that they
don't need to rely on the pastorthat they know.
I don't know how many timeswe've heard this over the years.
I would say something tosomebody, but I don't think I
(00:20):
know enough about the Bible.
You're never going to knowenough about the Bible.
Just go, trust the Holy Spiritin your life.
He's going to give you thewords to say he's going to move
your hands in the way that theyneed to be moved.
Let's just get to work together.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Welcome to the Tim Allman Podcast.
It's a great day to be alive.
The joy of Jesus is yourstrength as you lean into a
conversation today with a leaderin the Lutheran Church Missouri
Synod that I have respectedfrom afar and, from time to time
, close up in life and ministry.
I have Reverend Bill Dickelmantoday.
Let me tell you a little bitabout Bill.
(00:58):
In 2023, we were just talkingabout this before he hit play
Bill celebrated his 50thordination anniversary after
serving as pastor at St Mark inElko, nevada, and Faith in
Ossawa, oklahoma.
While serving as pastor at Faith, bill also served as the
Oklahoma district president backin 1991.
That was a great year.
(01:18):
I was 10 years old Until hiselection as first vice president
of the LCMS in 2004, an officehe served in as first vice
president until 2010, partneringwith Reverend Dr Jerry
Kieschnick in those years.
Carol and Bill are proudparents of six kids, 14
grandchildren and in theirretirement, Carol and Bill make
(01:41):
San Diego and St Paul LutheranChurch in San Diego their church
home.
So how are you doing, bill?
I'm excited for thisconversation.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Yeah, so am I.
I'm doing just fine, tim, gladto be with you this morning.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Yeah, this is going to be fun, all right, so let's
talk pastoral leadership.
Pastoral leadership.
As you think about pastoralleadership, what are the top I
don't know two or threecharacteristics you're looking
for in a pastor who takesleading the flock of Christ
seriously.
What are two or three of thosecharacteristics, bill?
Speaker 1 (02:10):
You know, before I get into that, on Saturday, just
two days ago, we installed atSt Paul's Church a new senior
pastor, hey Nate House.
Our former pastor Jim Henkelhad been there for 20 years and
the pastor Richard Alsing beforehim had been there 23 years.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
I don't know what happened before that.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Anyway, we installed Reverend Nathan Hausch as the
senior pastor on Saturday and Ithink just in a little bit that
I know about Nathan right now hedisplays these qualities that I
think are important, In noparticular order.
I think a pastor needs to beconfident about his own faith
(02:59):
and be able to explain it, todemonstrate it, to live it, to
let me know, as somebody said inthe pew on Sunday morning, that
this guy actually believes whathe's talking about, and I think
that a pastor needs to be ableto communicate that well.
More than just words, it needsto be demonstrated in everything
(03:24):
that he does.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Hey, let's pause right there, bill.
Let's pause on that one andmaybe pause just a bit on these
two or three characteristics.
Have you been in I mean, you'vebeen around different churches
over the years in your kind ofdistrict role and synodical role
, right, it kind of is mindblowing to me, but I know Satan
works and Satan wants to steal,kill, destroy and put doubts,
(03:46):
etc.
Like how could a pastor serve,preach, teach without confidence
in their faith?
That seems to be like it has tobe core.
Have you experienced, likechurches and pastors, that
you're like I don't know if thisguy actually believes what he's
saying.
Have you actually experiencedthat?
Speaker 1 (04:05):
I have experienced yes, I have an answer to your
question and I have had theopportunity and not bad
opportunities, by the way to sitdown with pastors who have said
to me I don't believe what weteach about baptism, and the end
(04:25):
of that conversation was youknow, you can't continue to be a
pastor in the Lutheran ChurchMissouri Synod, which they did
not, and they had the integrityto resign.
But I've had other conversationswith clergy who said you know,
I don't believe our confessionalstance and I can't bring up the
instances right now that pastorleft and joined the Roman
(04:49):
Catholic Church.
On the clergy and I'veexperienced that several times,
one pastor left for the GreekOrthodox Church and felt that he
was more in line with thattheology.
Some just left the ministrybecause they said I don't
believe what I'm preaching aboutanymore.
(05:11):
My word's not theirs, butultimately that was the end of
the conversation and thesepeople did it with integrity.
They were upfront about it.
We had some of thoseconversations were you know,
more than one.
It went on for a little while,but that was the conclusion that
we mutually agreed.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Yeah Well, crisis of conscience.
And when you're in a role likeours that is a public office
role, yeah, I couldn't imaginenot believing.
Believe your first one onbaptism.
I'm just, were they more intolike, believer baptism or
something like that?
They didn't.
Yeah, yes, coming of age kindof thing.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
How could, how could the Holy Spirit possibly, you
know, work in somebody thatcould not speak up for their own
faith?
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Yeah, okay.
Well, that's interesting.
I have just overwhelmed at theveracity, the truth, the person
and work of Jesus.
Like I'm kind of infatuatedwith Jesus Keep it safe, tim.
(06:28):
Like I'm kind of infatuatedwith with Jesus and uh, the well
, yeah, I mean the, the personin work, but the historicity of
Christ.
Have you done any while I'm onit right now?
Have you?
Have you heard anything aboutthis new research in the shroud
of Turin, bill?
Speaker 1 (06:37):
No, I don't know what you're talking about.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
What the burial cloth of the resurrected Jesus.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Yeah, yeah, I don't know about the new research into
it.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Well, I mean, there's just a lot of scholars, even
atheist scholars, who are sayingone it's dated to 2,000 years
ago.
There's Jerusalem dirt in thecloth, oh, limestone, there's
the flashpoint.
They put this you know, a clothhas multiple layers.
I'm not a, I don't work withcloth, I'm not a seamstress or
(07:08):
whatever, but the craziest thingthey can't reduplicate is the
flashpoint of light that tookplace, that created like a
photographic negative imprint ofthe body.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
That they can't science can't.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
They can't figure it out, they can't reduplicate it,
and it's like we believe, asChristians, the moment of
resurrection.
A dead guy who's dead forroughly 30 hours.
The cloth actually shows thathe had rigor mortis.
He hadn't returned back to.
He still was in a rigor mortisstate when life came back.
The father gave his son backlife and there's some other
(07:43):
pieces of evidence that are justastonishing Over 350 lashing
marks.
We know Jesus was beaten beyondrecognition.
The Gospels account for thatand that's one of the reasons
why he expires after he departs,after only six hours.
Normally it took much longerfor someone to expire on the
(08:03):
cross.
And this is another crazy point, or two other crazy points the
crown of thorns.
They see the crown of thorns,which was not like just a little
wreath.
It's three, four inch longJerusalem thorns and there's 30
marks.
They can actually see in theflashpoint 30 to 50 marks in the
head of Jesus.
And then there was an actualRoman spear in the side of this
(08:29):
man too, on this cloth thatperfectly duplicates a first
century Roman spear.
It's as if the Bible is true,bill, yeah.
It's as if the tomb is actuallyempty and Jesus lives and reigns
.
He's at the right hand of theFather and waiting to be sent by
the father to make all thingsnew, and he's given us a mission
as proclaimers of the gospel,to really, really deeply believe
(08:53):
.
And I think, as time goes on,science and evidence, et cetera,
is just converging more andmore for us.
I'm even listening to a.
I listened to Mel Gibson'spodcast with Joe Rogan.
Now I'm not promoting, theySwear, etc.
You guys know Rogan's podcastis one of the largest podcasts
in the world and Mel Gibson ison there.
(09:14):
He was referring to the Shroudof Turin and the recent evidence
that's come out.
I mean, it's prettyextraordinary, bill.
The evidence comes from allsides about this man who was
dead and then brought to life.
Anything more to say there?
Speaker 1 (09:26):
Well, that's amazing.
I'm happy to hear that.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
You don't need it.
I don't need it either, butit's just like wow.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
Yeah, over the years I've seen the photos of the
Shroud of Turin and read aboutit, but as far as these facts
that you've just stated rightnow, I hadn't heard any of that.
Pretty impressive.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Yeah, the carbon dating was false.
Like back now science has shown.
No, this cloth, I mean, that'sthe biggest thing that led
people to dismiss it.
They're like oh, it's only like700 or 1,000 years old or
something like that.
No no, no, it dates to firstcentury Jerusalem.
Pretty extraordinary.
All right, give us two morecharacteristics of pastoral
leaders there, bill.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
I think you know, pastors need to be able to
communicate, and I expect mypastor to communicate to me and
to have his heart for me and forother people as well, rather
than just perform the functionsand duties of a pastor.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
Well and again to the last.
Could you be a pastor and notwant to know your people Like?
That seems antithetical to meand I guess, to play devil's
advocate, some of us could be soprone toward mission, et cetera
or, on the other end, so pronetoward the liturgy has to,
everything has to be, and I missthe people who are around.
(10:55):
I've heard stories about you.
You know you get out early.
This is one of.
I try to get out early to, youknow, shake hands with people as
they're coming in.
If someone, if the HolySpirit's kind of put someone on
my heart that I know is walkingthrough a harder time, like
going before service, definitelyafter, to interact with them.
I want to know, and even in alarger church it may be kind of
hard, but I want to be presentwith people.
(11:15):
You know a shocking thing, Ididn't know, that some pastors
maybe this is your experiencetoo some pastors don't like
greet their people when theyleave.
They don't, they don't likestay accessible for a certain
period of time.
I mean, that seems kind ofbonkers, bonkers to me.
So, yeah, what?
What I know, what I know God'speople well enough, not their
(11:36):
name, their story.
That goes a long way and do Icare about their development
enough to say I I'm a part ofyour care, but for us it's a
larger church, right?
So there's other leaders, othersmall group leaders, who deeply
know your story and can prayfor you.
But yeah, I guess it's adisposition of the heart of the
leader.
Is he here for his people or ishe working either on the one
(11:59):
hand, just providing religiousgoods and services, or, on the
other, he's so focused on thefuture that he doesn't see the
people who are about bringingthe gospel out into that
preferred future?
Anything more to say there,bill?
Speaker 1 (12:11):
While you were talking, I was thinking years
ago, oh, within the last 10years, I had the opportunity to
attend a I think I'm saying thisright a Life Church TV or dot
com or something like that.
Yeah, I was visiting in Oklahomaand had heard about this and
(12:38):
went with some friends to thison a Sunday morning and the
pastor was not present at thissite.
And I learned later on thatthere were a number of sites,
maybe across the country I'm notquite sure how far it went, but
he was the preacher and heshowed up on a screen when it
(12:59):
was time to preach, but beforethat there was a local pastor
who led that.
There was music.
We were there early in themorning and the place was packed
all ages.
We were not the oldest peoplethere, there were no kids in the
room, but there were hundredsof people in that room, maybe
(13:20):
500 people in that room, andwhen the pastor was preaching
the people were reacting as ifhe were right there in front of
them responding, and they wereclapping, talking back to the
pastor, and I thought thesepeople have a relationship with
(13:40):
that guy and I don't know howmany of them have ever seen him
in person, and yet I got theimpression that they had a
relationship.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Well, yeah, that's a Craig Groeschel Life Church
that's it.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
That's the guy Craig Groeschel.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Yep, it's a fascinating move in American
Christianity right now thatthere are some larger church
pastors who have developedrapport relationship virtually
with congregants across thecountry I don't know how many, I
think they worship 20,000,something like that across
(14:21):
multiple campuses and manydifferent cities.
It's a unique approach.
I don't know that it's one thatwe can duplicate for a couple
of.
Not that we can't make use ofvideo preaching.
I'm not against necessarilyvideo preaching per se, but
every person needs a pastor andpastors who are around them.
(14:43):
It's hard to do the sacrament.
I think sacrament needs to bein person, and having call and
ordain servants of the word thatoversee the sacrament.
That's difficult, but maybe getyour take on this.
He's a communicator.
He's a relationship builder.
Craig Groeschel, he's beenremarkably gifted to be a
(15:04):
communicator.
He's a relationship builder.
Craig Groeschel, he's beenremarkably gifted to be a
communicator.
He's a preacher.
He's a proclaimer.
Is there a difference in yourmind between the preacher and
the pastor?
Because that's the distinctionthey make.
There's a preacher or apreaching team, and then each
campus has multiple pastors,depending on how big the size is
(15:26):
.
Do the spiritual care,discipleship, et cetera.
Have you wrestled with thedifference between preaching and
pastoring?
Speaker 1 (15:32):
Yes, yes, of course, my point with Craig Groeschel
Groeschel yeah, my point therewas, you there was not that I'm
advocating that style of churchor worship at all, I'm not.
But the point was that he waspastor to those people and they
(15:54):
felt that relationship.
I didn't, and that's the onlytime I've ever experienced that.
Uh, but back to what we weretalking about earlier.
Uh, I want to feel thatrelationship with my pastor and
the people for whom I am thepastor.
I want them to feel thatrelationship with me.
I want them to know that I,that I do care about them, I am
(16:18):
interested in their life and inevery aspect of their life and
I'm there to present thatresurrected Jesus to them in
every way that I possibly can.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
Yeah Amen, so confident.
We need to be able tocommunicate.
Do you have one more C?
You're a good preacher.
We're on the C track right now.
Is there another C Bill, orwhere are we going?
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Oh, I've kind of forgotten where we were.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
It's okay, it's okay.
So any other top threecharacteristics of pastors
they're confident about?
Their faith they cancommunicate.
You got one more.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
You asked about the difference between preaching and
being a pastor.
You know the two things areinterrelated.
I have a friend who was servingas a vacancy pastor and was
(17:17):
just getting ready to start,maybe in a couple of weeks, when
we had this conversation yearsago and I said well, that'll be
interesting getting to know adifferent congregation and
learning how to preach to them.
He said I've already writtenall the sermons and I said, oh,
good for you.
Not quite my style and I ammore interested in learning
(17:43):
where you are in your faithjourney and how can I help along
with that faith journey.
How can the word of God helpalong with that faith journey?
What does Jesus have to say toyou about your faith journey?
And it's more than okay.
Here's the text, and this iswhat I think about the text.
And here it is.
I think that the preacher hasthe opportunity to be the pastor
(18:09):
while he's preaching and tohelp people work through the
good things and the bad thingsin life.
But to help people work throughwell, what does this scripture
mean to me?
I understand, maybe, what StPaul was writing about to the
congregation in Corinth.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
But what does that have to do with me today?
Yeah Well, amen, If we don't.
The word is living and activeand it's also contextual.
And that is the preacher's job,I think connecting the timeless
truths of scripture to thehearts and ears of 20, 25
hearers.
There's art and science to that.
(18:47):
There's a lot of mystery aroundwhat that actually looks like.
I'm always amazed, you know,because I can't know.
You know we got close to athousand people there.
You know I don't know whereeverybody is, but the Holy
Spirit does.
And so the Holy Spirit like,connects the word of God.
If the pastor, if theproclaimer's heart is, like,
open to story, to application.
(19:09):
I know pockets of our story, Iknow the felt needs of different
groups of people, I know thatwe're suffering from addiction
and mental health crisis andrelationships being torn down.
And and since I know thosekinds of macro themes, that
allows me in real time.
A lot of times it's just theHoly spirit brings it to mind,
(19:29):
connected to the story.
That is a word that the Holyspirit connects for that person.
And you've had this bill.
They walk out.
How did you know what I'm like?
I don't know, I don't know, Idon't know that's the Holy
Spirit's work.
Anything more about the HolySpirit connecting, especially
for the proclaimer whose heartis open toward preaching to the
felt needs of his people.
How the Holy Spirit justconnects the dots and points
(19:50):
them to Jesus, it's prettyextraordinary isn't it?
Speaker 1 (19:53):
Yeah, there's a.
I was just thinking about anold collect from the Lutheran
hymnal.
When I grew up, we did pagefive in the Lutheran hymnal
every Sunday, maybe four or fivetimes a year.
When we celebrated the Lord'sSupper, we did page 15.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
You only did the Lord's Supper four or five times
a year.
It wasn't often.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
Wow, that's strange.
I think maybe once a quarterand a good Friday or Monday.
Did you not have a?
Speaker 2 (20:26):
pastor.
Did you not have a local pastor?
Oh, yeah.
You did have a local pastor.
It's not like there was acircuit rider.
You didn't actually have apastor.
It was just a tradition in someof those churches to only do it
quarterly or so.
Yeah, did you have private?
I'm sorry to just go deeper onthis one.
Did you have private confessionand absolution in that context
where people had to go beforecoming to the Lord's Supper?
Speaker 1 (20:48):
We did it on Friday night or Saturday night could
not make it.
The pastor did allow you to goon Sunday morning into his
office.
You had to walk in front of thewhole congregation to go past
the pulpit into his room andeverybody knew you know what
were you doing.
You didn't go to.
(21:09):
But I'll tell you, the firsttime I went you could not
commune If you and he wrote downeverybody's name and had that,
that piece of paper on the altarwith him, checked him off.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Wow, that's.
That's very different and Iguess maybe I'm getting super
pragmatic here.
Maybe he's like, because ifit's a church of 100 or 200
people or something like that,you know, in a rural community,
something like that, that he'slike that's a lot of people to
see, so maybe we can only likespace this out once, a quarter
or stuff like that.
That's a lot of, that's a lotof work.
(21:44):
Um, that, when did thatpractice in our context?
Kind of stop Cause I think I'ma very we, I love the mission,
but I think there is somethingvery, very powerful about
private for you confession andabsolution rather than just
corporate confession.
And I sound kind of old school,I guess, when I say that.
But yeah, yeah, I think therepeople need to hear, though your
(22:07):
sin is scarlet, it's as whiteas snow, it's gone as far as the
east is from the west, that theheaviness of conscience, what
you've done or failed to do,it's gone, nailed to the cross
with Jesus for you, bill right,so you're forgiven in the name
of the Father, son and HolySpirit.
And I think sometimes with thebig production or even larger
churches like ours, we lose thatpersonal invitation to
(22:28):
experience the healing words ofJesus for me, which the for you
component, for me component,that's very, very Lutheran.
Anything more to add to that?
Speaker 1 (22:50):
A couple of things.
When I became parish pastor in1973, I said, if you want to
make a private confession ofyour sins before communion, I'm
going to be in the church office.
And two people showed up andthe next time it was me.
So that's when the practicestopped for me.
People just didn't show up.
My vicarage congregation,redeemer Church, Bartlesville,
(23:12):
oklahoma, that pastor did notmake a big deal about it but he
did, I know, make himselfavailable for those that wanted
to do that.
In my ministry, of course,people have come at times in
their life with confession, butno one has made it a point to
(23:35):
come before receiving the Lord'sSupper.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
Yeah, I think it was a cultural season that just has
kind of changed, maybe for verypractical, pragmatic reasons.
I have the same approach as youdo.
If some person is burdened intheir conscience and it happens
from time to time they're atodds with a brother or sister in
Christ and they need to makethat right before coming and
(23:58):
receiving the body and blood ofJesus.
We do that Really.
The maybe better.
I don't know if it's better,but more practical approach from
a scale perspective is for usin small groups, like having a
leader who's able to know what'sgoing on and offer that word of
private.
You could say confession andabsolution, that moment of
(24:20):
confession, absolution.
We've seen a lot of success, Iguess, there in releasing the
office of the keys to thepriesthood of all believers.
Right, I oversee it, but it'sbeen released out.
Whoever sends you, forgive.
They're forgiven in the name ofthe Father, son and Holy Spirit
.
So we see that as kind of aleadership development
opportunity out in our community.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Yeah, what do you think about that, bill?
I think it's essential.
You have to do that, especiallyin a larger church.
You still are the pastor of thelarger church, but I can
remember Pastor Muzan Biggs atBoston Avenue Methodist Church
in Tulsa, oklahoma big church,and he and I were talking one
time and I said how do you dothat?
And he said this is how I do it.
(25:05):
I am the pastor of Boston AvenueMethodist Church and there are
14 other ministers here andtogether we do this and I
thought what a great approach.
There's no question.
You know number one about whois the pastor, and yet the
pastor work gets done throughthe other ministers that you
(25:26):
have in your congregation and ithas to work that way.
And I don't care what size thechurch is, there's always other
ministers around that are takingcare of people.
You know there are things thatthat happened when I was parish
pastor that I never knew about,didn't need to know about, and
one person taking care ofanother person, ministering to
(25:48):
their needs, and I said amen youknow we have to do it this way,
that's it.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
That's it.
Yeah, I'm.
I'm in a really sweet spotright now.
Our, our my other partnerpartner, Pastor Michael Hyden,
is great with spiritual care andleading our spiritual the
hospital and our goal is to haveat least a once a week often
(26:19):
it's more, but at least a once aweek touch with them to let
them know they're seen and lovedand cared for.
And yeah, it's pretty exciting.
But many hands make lighterwork, right?
I mean, if we got a team of 20,they have a couple people, a
couple, three people thatthey're engaged with, that
they're friends with, and thenpastors and things are in
(26:39):
rotation to bring the sacramentto them.
It just works better when we doit together.
It seems so simple, rather thanhaving to do everything.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
I remember years ago listening to Lyle Schaller.
He was really somebody that Ileaned on.
I read his books.
I went to every time I couldhear him in person.
I did.
And he said in his estimation,the average pastor could take
care of 75 people.
An exceptional pastor couldtake care of 150 people.
(27:09):
And he said many reasons ourchurches are the size they are
is because that pastor is takingcare of that many people, as
many people as he can take careof.
And that's the number.
And until you include otherpeople to assist and come
alongside of you in thisministry, that's what it's going
(27:32):
to be.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
Yep.
Well, and that's the way it isfor many churches in America
about that size, and that's oneof the reasons why the ULC, the
Unite Leadership Collective,exists.
We believe there are certainskills that pastors can learn to
move from doer to developer.
To lead others to do, topartner with him, to do the
works of ministry.
He's been called Ephesians 4,right to equip the saints for
(27:55):
love and good deeds.
That is in our job description,from, uh, from from Jesus and
the apostle Paul, and they,obviously they modeled that
right.
The rabbinic style of leadershipis like as you watch me do it,
you're going to partner Lukenine, Luke 10.
I've gone off on that many,many times.
I'm not going to do it rightnow, but Jesus gave others, his
disciples, the invitation andguess what?
(28:17):
It multiplied because they didthe exact same thing with the
communities that they were sentto.
It was never about just theBible, answer man, I am the
apostle.
No, it was always about as I'vereceived.
So I give 2 Timothy 2.2,.
As you have the ability toteach, Timothy, you've received
that from me, I've received itfrom Jesus.
Pass it on to other men who canpass it on to other men who
have the ability to teach, andoff we go.
(28:39):
The multiplying movement ofJesus moves out to reach more
and more people with the gospel,and when that is in your
culture, people are cared for inthe flock more effectively.
100%, 100%.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
There's no question about it.
Just think how much it takesjust to take care of you Exactly
.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
A lot, a lot, exactly .
So I need a lot, a lot of help.
So, anyway, let's get into.
The reason I was really pumpedto hear and get to hang out with
you today is what Mark Ernster,one of your friends, kind of
has commented and he's been aguest on the former American
(29:21):
Reformation, now Tim Allmanpodcast.
wonderful man of faith, layleader in your community, and he
was just so impressed with yourpastoral hospitality and
especially your work with thosewho are homebound.
So what is the role ofhospitality and emotional
quotient EQ skills in pastoralleadership?
(29:45):
Let's talk about hospitalityand EQ skills, bill.
Tell me about that phraseemotional quotient I uh, so yeah
, iq yeah, eq, eq eats, iq forbreakfast every day, breakfast,
lunch and dinner Meaning it'swe're not just, we're not just
brains on a stick, it's not justabout what you know right or
(30:06):
how smart you are, it's how umable you are to emotionally you
could say relationally, sociallyconnect to other people, to
mirror the emotions of otherpeople to.
You could say, show compassionand care and appropriate
challenge to people in variousplaces in life.
(30:27):
So as a pastor, we have to grow.
Ei is another phrase, emotionalintelligence, right.
How do I present growing inself-awareness?
For me over the years has beenTim, you can be loud and intense
, okay.
So let's pull back on theintensity from time to time,
harness the passion, but let'sbe aware of how that's impacting
(30:52):
other people, not just in thepreaching office, but in the
one-on-one or in the small group.
You do that very, very well.
It's subconscious, it's kind ofingrained in you the way you
naturally connect to otherpeople.
And if that happens in a pastorand then happens in a
leadership team, thatcongregation then begins to be
(31:13):
known for hospitality.
I'm not just going to go intomy holy huddle out in the
courtyard after worship, I'mgoing to actually have the eyes
to see who's new here, who'sisolated here.
Just yesterday I had aconversation with a first-time
family in worship.
After worship they said, hey,thanks for noticing us.
And we talked for five minutesor so and they had a great,
(31:36):
great experience.
And then they're like andyou're yeah, just to let you
know you're the third or fourthperson that's come up and
engaged with us.
Well, they're just kind ofhanging out watching to see if
anybody will notice them.
You have a ministry of noticingand the congregation is going
to grow in hospitality.
They start to become very, veryintentional about noticing
others.
That's the long answer to yourquestion.
What is emotional quotient?
(31:57):
We're aware of how we presentto others and in turn we draw
others closer to us rather thanpush others away.
Anything more to say there andhow that?
What role that plays in yourministry, bill?
Speaker 1 (32:10):
That is.
That is my ministry.
That is my ministry.
That's kind of how I operateand I think that's just because
that's who I am.
That's how I'm wired up, and Ilearned that about myself some
years ago through a Myers-Briggs.
By the way, I had avoided thatparticular instrument and got
(32:36):
involved with some otherdenominational leaders when I
was a district president inOklahoma and we hired a
therapist, an Episcopal priest,and we went once a month and one
of the things he did was sayyou have to take this
Myers-Briggs inventory.
And I had resisted because,number one, I didn't understand
(33:00):
what it was, and I thoughtsomebody was going to say well,
you're going to have to be aplumber instead of a pastor, not
that that would be bad.
Anyway, when we were goingthrough the results, he read
through all the things and thenwrite down the letters that you
think apply to you.
And I did.
(33:20):
And he said to me you know,that is who you are, you are
solid in here.
And he said you're not a bigthinker, bill, but you do have
great emotions.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
It's kind of offensive.
You have a great emotions.
That's kind of offensive.
You have a great mind.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
Recognize that over the year.
Most of the time when I'm doing, my thinking is when I'm
talking, and I've learned thatlater on too, some people
operate that way and that's howI operate.
Anyway, I think all thosethings that you just said about
the emotional quotient, I thinkthose are the words I would use
(33:57):
to describe myself and myministry.
I want to know who you are, Iwant to know your name, I want
to know your family.
I want to know those things.
When I stand out in the frontporch of church on Sunday
morning and you and your familyare walking up, I say, tim, good
morning, welcome to worshiptoday.
And when you're kneeling at thecommunion rail, I want to say,
(34:20):
tim, this is the body of Christfor you.
And when I come to visit you inyour home because you can't get
out anymore, I want to say,bernie, this is the body of
Christ for you.
And tell me about yourself.
Where do you come from?
How did you get to San Diego?
What's going on here?
Speaker 2 (34:37):
Those are important things to me.
We are storied individuals atour base.
We want to be connected to alarger story, and I would say
that that's God's story ofredemptive love.
And then we want to know doesGod care and do other people
care about my?
What could be, apart from faithin Jesus?
Meaningless, you know, hopelessexistence?
(34:59):
When we notice and make timefor people, we give value to
their story and we know theirname.
One of your special, I guess,superpowers, holy Spirit
superpowers, is knowing people'sname.
So let's talk about the powerof name.
What is in a name?
And then let's get superpractical on how you there are
(35:20):
some tactics for memorizingpeople's names more
intentionally, and let's talkabout that.
So what's so powerful in a name?
Bill?
Speaker 1 (35:29):
I did not pay much attention to that, tim, until
this.
First I want to say I feel goodwhen you call me by name, when
we haven't seen each other or wemet once or twice, and you come
up to me and you said, bill,remember we met in Orlando,
(35:49):
florida, three years ago and I'dsay, oh yeah, you know now I've
come back.
But that's.
That means something to me whensomeone can do that.
In my first parish.
I remember it was tiny, a coupleof hands full of people and a
family came to worship on Sundaymorning.
(36:10):
New to our church, said.
They were just new in ourcommunity and our newspaper,
local newspaper, came out onceor twice a week, I don't
remember what.
Anyway, on Saturday I waslooking at it and here was a
story about that family that hadbeen in church the week before
with their name and I had notremembered their name.
(36:32):
But when I saw it I said, oh,so the next day they were in
church and I called it by nameand he was just so impressed
that I had remembered his nameand that was probably a starter
time for me.
To intentionally say this isimportant because we became
great friends.
They became great workers inthat congregation brought other
(36:54):
people into our congregation, soI began already then being
aware of the power number one ofcalling you by your name,
(37:17):
calling you by your name.
But more, it just opened up ourrelationship, rather than
looking at you and trying tohave a conversation with you and
not knowing your name, and sowe don't talk about anything
personal.
We talk about the weather andthe Los Angeles Rams or whatever
it is it is, and we never getdown to you know, how can, how
(37:38):
can you know we work together onyour faith journey and on my
faith journey too.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
We're, we're in this together here.
Amen.
But there's something Icouldn't be a human apart from a
name.
Right, you look at the story ofMoses and the burning bush.
Who will, I say, sent me, and Iam right, even God takes a name
.
And then early in the Jesusstory, the angel has to tell you
(38:01):
will give him the name Jesus,he will save his people from
their sins.
I've seen different movies wherea person forgets.
This is like the tragedy, thetrauma of Alzheimer's dementia,
like when you forget your story,you even forget your own
personal identity.
There's a component to thatthat is hellish.
(38:21):
It just disembodied,disconnected, kind of I would
not know how to live apart frombeing Tim.
Right, my family gave me thatname.
I believe God, you know, gaveme, gave me that name.
He knew me before I was evenconceived in my mother's womb.
There's, there's somethingremarkably mysterious about how
(38:42):
people I was just thinking, likemy dog, she responds her name's
Roxy.
Roxy would still be Roxy.
I mean, I think there'ssomething connected to her name.
But even the, the creatures outin the wilderness, the bunnies
that are in the riparianpreserve right next to like
these bunnies, don't have names.
I think a name is intimatelyconnected to what it means to be
made in the image of God Adamand Eve.
(39:03):
They were named by God.
So anything more to say, though, on the power of name and how
awful it would be when we don'tknow our name, if we didn't know
our name.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
My identity, part of my identity, is my name and it's
, you know, my family's name.
I can remember a year or twoago, a classmate, good friend,
pastor Steve Wagner, san Antonio, texas, was relating a story
(39:35):
about when he was a young manand his father had a
heart-to-heart with him and saidremember this, you are a Wagner
and you are representing us.
And I thought, oh, that'spretty powerful in that name,
right there in my name, and I'vetold that to our kids when they
were growing up.
I said you know, this is yourname, this is who you are, and
(39:59):
people are going to know you byyour name and they do.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
And it's good.
Amen, it is good, and it kindof connects me.
At least our last names, right,multi-generational?
There's a higher calling that Ihave, so, yeah, how.
There's a higher calling that Ihave, so, yeah, how do you?
What are the tactics, though,for memorizing more names, bill?
Because I think a lot of timesthe pastor, I've had that
experience, like you just shared, where I remember their name,
and I've also had experienceswhere I just I can't pull it
(40:25):
right now, but man, I know youwere here and I'm so glad you
came back and I'm going to, I'mgoing to get better, I'm going
to get better at it.
So, anyway, let's get into howyou memorize names.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
The older I get, the more difficult it is for me to
remember, but the easier it isfor me to say I know, you told
me your name three times already, but will you tell me again,
because I don't have it andpeople are happy to do that,
they are happy to do that, noone takes offense at least
(40:55):
saying you know I told you threetimes already.
You ought to know by now.
Nobody treats me that way.
Now I was thinking.
Or when I was a parish pastorin Oklahoma, I went to a man
after church and they had beenthere the week before, and I
said so do they call you?
Should I call you Chuck orCharlie?
And he said well, why don't youcall me by my name?
(41:16):
It's Scott, and I had you know,complete, I thought he was
Charles for some reason.
Anyway, people are good.
There's a young woman at this atour church in San Diego and I
just couldn't bring it.
And finally she said to me it'sAnnie.
So when you look at me, justthink of orphan Annie, and then
(41:41):
you'll remember me.
And that's what it took.
It stuck.
So I do things like that, butmostly I just say you know, I'm
trying and I just tell people.
I want to know your name, Iwant to know about you, I want
you to know my name and they'rehelpful about it.
But it takes it probably.
(42:02):
Sometimes I remember right away.
It's not a not a difficultthing at all, but other times
four or five times before I getit For those of you who want to
get better at memorizing names.
Speaker 2 (42:13):
Thanks for your honesty there, bill.
By the way, I would give ashout out to Jim Quick and the
book Limitless.
He gives a lot of tactics thereusing the name three times in
your interaction with them,connecting the name to an
emotion, like what is theemotion that you're feeling, and
then connecting their name totheir story.
(42:34):
Can you have one image thatpops up in there?
Those are three differenttactics that people can utilize
and I do it good sometimes andnot so good.
Praise God, there's grace andpraise God, there's grace from
Jesus flowing to people who say,yeah, I know there's a lot of
people that you have to have tomemorize, and we're actually
toward the name thing, towardthe power of name.
(42:55):
Our congregation is going towardname tags, old school name name
tags, and we're printing themout.
We use planning center, um.
We're working toward printingthem out now printing.
How do you produce that manyname tags that quick, quickly
enough?
You know every single, everysingle week.
Uh, there are some churchesthat have really got good at.
(43:16):
A shout out to WoodburyLutheran, um, and Tom Fotenauer
up there.
But we're that's where we'retrending, cause it's.
It's really, really helpful inbuilding connection.
Our La Mesa ministry workingpoor and homeless.
Every week you come and someonewrites out your name tag.
Maybe we just do.
Maybe we just do that.
We're checking in, we're givingyou your name tag as you come
onto campus.
We could make it.
(43:37):
We don't even need the tech forthat.
For goodness sake, I'm going tobring that up in a meeting
today.
Let's just write out their nameBill.
Anyway, there's great power inname and then when you'd see
them out in the communityexactly, you've hung out, you've
seen them in worship.
Let's remember that name.
So let's work harder, churchleader, toward recognizing
people with the power of name.
(43:58):
Let's pivot toward talkingabout the priesthood of all
believers.
What are the benefits of we'vetalked around this a little bit
benefits of equipping thepriesthood of all believers and
I guess a side note we don't getinto in this podcast too much
of the LCMS kind of currentclimate.
But the one thing I would liketo get your perspective on is
clericalism in the LCMS.
(44:20):
Have you noticed an increase inclericalism in the LCMS and how
is that working?
And I think that could be atodds with Jesus' desire, the
early church's desire to equiprather than maybe control
everything that takes place inthe local church.
Say more there, bill.
Speaker 1 (44:40):
Tell me what clericalism means.
Speaker 2 (44:44):
Just the pastor, he's the cleric, he's the
distributor of religiousservices, word and sacrament, to
be sure.
But he is not just the Bibleanswer man.
He is the center point of allevangelism, he is the doer of
all of the ministry.
And one of my kind of formativestories was when I was at a
(45:07):
district conference this goesback seven, eight years ago and
we were talking about, I think,giving a vote toward our
commission church workers, right, and this young man with his
clerical collar.
Nothing against clerical collar.
I actually wear a clericalcollar when I'm robed up on
Sundays and sometimes evenbetween that, but I don't
(45:29):
necessarily wear it every day.
This young man, fresh out ofthe seminary, stands up and said
let it be known, in the churchthere are proclaimers and there
are hearers.
The two should not be confused.
And I was kind of frustrated, Iguess, with just the way he
said it, this very narrow viewof you sit, you receive, let me
(45:55):
do my thing, I'm the preacher,you just sit and hear.
The struggle I have with thatsort of a perspective is, again,
I think it's counter toEphesians, chapter four,
equipping the saints.
I think it's counter to the wayof Jesus.
Jesus actively preached and heinvited others to preach.
Now, not everybody has ateaching preaching gift.
(46:16):
I'm not saying we ordaineverybody or anything like that.
I am saying that every baptizedbeliever is sent out into their
various vocations this appearsto be very Lutheran into their
various vocations, to be amissionary, one who can tell the
story of Jesus both in theirhome and in their marketplace.
And the church should beequipping them to tell that
(46:38):
story rather than saying youhave to come and sit and be
silent, rather than, I think, toland the plane.
I think the local church at itsbest is seen as a catalytic
training center rather than justa place where people come and
hang for a week, do their wordand sacrament thing and check
the box and then off, they gointo there.
(46:59):
And I may be a little harsh onthat, maybe drawing too harsh of
a caricature there, but there'sjust and I think it's always
been a tension just to land theplane.
I think it's always been atension just to land the plane
here.
There's always been a tensionbetween who really does the
ministry here, you know, is itthe preacher, is it the people?
Anything more there?
So I went off on you, you talkabout clericalism.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
That's fine.
I just wanted to make sure thatI was answering your question
where you want to know a coupleof things.
First, 15 years ago or so inthat range, I was invited to
preach at a congregation I don'tremember the occasion now,
maybe dedication of a newbuilding or anniversary or
(47:41):
something a larger church andafter a church on Sunday morning
where I preached lunch and thenwhatever was going to happen in
the afternoon right after lunch.
So after, in between churches,I was looking for coffee and I
walked around and got into thegymnasium kind of room and the
(48:03):
women were setting up, somepeople were setting up tables
for the luncheon and they hadthe tables right down the
serving tables down the centerof the room, and I commented
what a great thought that wasthat people could go then on the
food line on both sides ratherthan having the tables, you know
(48:25):
, pushed up against the wall andand then you know no place to
move around.
Anyway, they started laughingand I said what's so funny?
And they pointed and the pastoror one of the pastors was just
leaving and said he just told usthat we need to take these
tables out of the middle of theroom and shove them up against
(48:45):
the wall.
And we said, well, this wouldbe a much better way, pastor, to
do it.
And he said, no, I'm yourpastor and you must obey me.
And I said, well, that didn'tget him too far, did it?
And he said you know, we've gota thousand people to feed and
we've got to do it in 30 minutesor something like that, and it
just wouldn't work otherwise.
So that was one of myintroductions to clericalism.
(49:12):
Wow, and there have been othersI did encounter over the years.
I can think now of a pastorthat refused to let anyone else
pray publicly in the church andit came to bear that he refused
(49:35):
to allow the Sunday schoolsuperintendent to pray with the
Sunday school kids before Sundayschool.
On Sunday morning they had intheir church a joint Sunday
school opening and devotion timebut he needed to be the prayer
for that and refused to letanybody else.
If you were having a meeting inyour church, then he was to be
(49:58):
invited to the meeting to be theprayer at the beginning of the
meeting, because that was hisjob as the called pastor there
at that church.
So these are extreme examplesof that and I have to confess
that in the past, oh, 10 yearsor so, 15 years.
I've been retired about 15 yearsnow, not quite.
(50:20):
Carol and I my wife and I we'dlike to travel a lot around the
country and we get into a lot ofchurches, and most times it's
we don't know anything about thechurch On Sunday morning.
We wandered into your churchone Sunday morning and you
remembered my name by the way.
That's great.
I was impressed with that.
Anyway, sometimes I get thesense that this is the man
(50:46):
that's in charge and he's intouch with everything.
You know, when theannouncements are made, for
instance, I can think of acouple of times.
Now call me, you know.
Don't call Sally, don't callJim, you know.
Call me and I'll let you knowmore about this particular event
(51:09):
that's going on, and it couldwell be that he was the person
to call for that particularevent.
So that's about as deep intothat as I've been getting these
days.
Speaker 2 (51:22):
Well, I got two follow-up.
These are deep questions.
Did the tables stay in themiddle of the fellowship hall or
did they go back the layleaders?
They kept them in the middlethere because it was just more
pragmatic.
Speaker 1 (51:34):
They didn't listen.
Speaker 2 (51:36):
Gentle rebellion against the pastor.
Toward those customs in thelocal church.
I realized there are peoplethat were here before me and
likely they're going to be hereafter me.
So as it relates to a lot ofthe customs of the church when I
came 12 years ago, like I haveto adapt, I may bring some
(51:56):
others.
But if I don't adapt, that'svery unwise for me as I enter
into this unique community inthis time and space and those
rituals like for us it's God isgood all the time.
See you in the courtyard.
I mean that's how we close,like every service.
Kids even say see you in thecourtyard.
I mean it's almost like aliterature.
(52:17):
We're going to move out in thecourtyard, we're going to do
fellowship together there.
So it would be unwise if I saidyou know what we're not doing.
God is good.
I don't want that call andresponse, you know anything like
that.
That would have been very, veryunhelpful.
But sometimes again this goesback to EQ and maybe coupled
with theology, around the officeof holy ministry pastors make
decisions that really hampertheir relationship with their.
It kind of shows disrespecttoward the customs of that local
(52:40):
parish.
Any thoughts there, bill?
Speaker 1 (52:44):
I remember, as a seminary student, I was said I
don't remember which professorsaid wait two years before you
move the altar.
Well, yeah, but you had askedearlier than equipping saints.
I felt, and I don't know why,if it was something I picked up
(53:22):
at the seminary or just my owngrowing up experience, you know,
in a small church, whatever Ijust felt that you know I was
the go-to person and I needed toweigh in on everything and if
you were going to do somethingyou better check with me.
But over the years I learnedand those were not always gentle
(53:48):
lessons and I appreciate themnow the people that were lay
people, that were forthrightwith me and said look, what are
you doing here?
I remember a couple of years agoI had a conversation with Mark
Zender from King of Kings inOmaha and I don't know, excuse
me, I don't know how we gottalking about it, but he said
(54:09):
you know, one of hisparishioners came and said
pastor, I think that as a churchwe need to make a food truck
kind of thing, because at nightthere's a lot of people out on
the street and you know, theydon't, they don't have something
to eat always, and I think wecould.
We could reach out to them andget to know them, and they could
get to know us and it might bea gospel-presenting opportunity.
(54:33):
And Mark said you know what?
I think that is a marvelousidea and I think you're the guy
to do it, and the guy went anddid it.
And I was thinking you know, 50years ago I probably would have
said well, we'll take it to thechurch council or we'll form a
committee, or we'll have ameeting or whatever it is.
People are.
(54:54):
People know stuff.
I remember old Charlie Mueller,now gone on to on to be with
the Lord, said you got to trustthe lay people.
They're going to take thiskingdom of God further than we
ever thought we could as clergy,and he is so right about that.
So we have to help people.
(55:14):
We have to bring the word ofGod to them in such a way that
they are fulfilled number one intheir own faith, that they are
confident that they can go aheadand do something and that they
don't need to rely on the pastorthat they know.
(55:37):
I don't know how many timeswe've heard this over the years.
Oh, I would say something tosomebody, but I don't think I
know enough about the Bible.
You're never going to knowenough about the Bible.
Just go, trust the Holy Spiritin your life.
He's going to give you thewords to say he's going to move
your hands in the way that theyneed to be moved and let's just
get to work together.
Speaker 2 (55:57):
Amen.
No, that's such a great posture.
The second question I had waswhere did that young man read in
the Bible or in the Lutheranconfessions that only pastors
pray in small groups orsomething?
I don't know where that comesfrom.
Could you help me understandthat?
Speaker 1 (56:15):
Yeah, I don't either because I asked him exactly the
same thing and he, I don't know,I don't remember he had a
response, but I don't rememberright now what it was.
Remember he had a response, butI don't remember right now what
it was.
But this is what that led tohis.
Uh, after a meeting, first withthe board of elders, I met with
him privately, then we met withthe board of elders and then we
(56:39):
accepted his resignation.
Uh, because it just was notworking for for anybody.
The congregation was stifledand uh, uh, and I, he, he, I
don't know what happened to him.
Speaker 2 (56:54):
So yeah, well, that's a.
That is an extreme example.
I don't think there are manyexamples, uh, in our church.
Uh, praise, praise God.
So this has been, this has beengreat.
Maybe my last question uh, bill, grateful for who you are, how
God made you um, the the careand sensitivity, the amazing,
(57:14):
amazing pastor over 50 years, uh, in our, in our church.
I'm grateful you're in theLutheran church, missouri synod
brother.
Um, so, as you look at Jesus,we've talked.
We started with leadership.
Let's close with leadership.
As you look at Jesus, what madehim like the best leader ever,
bill?
Speaker 1 (57:34):
Yeah, I was thinking about this, I don't know the
last couple of days when I wasthinking about it, martin, my
conversation, with ourconversation together.
I read this someplace, I don'tremember quite where, maybe
something that Guido Merkin'slongtime pastor at Concordia in
San Antonio, texas, he said whenI was a young pastor, and he
(58:00):
wasn't talking about himself, hewas just relating a story.
He said when I was a youngpastor I stood on the riverbank
and watched the peoplefloundering in the water and I
told them how to swim.
This is how you need to do itto get over here to the bank, to
safety.
And then in my middle years Ikind of kept one foot on the
(58:25):
bank and I put the other footdown in the river and I reached
out and I started pulling somepeople in and in my later years
I got in the water with them andI pushed them, helped them,
carried them to the shore.
And I think about Jesus.
He was in the water the wholetime and he was there with me,
(58:48):
with you, with everybody, notjust shouting instructions, this
is how you swim, but sayingcome with me, I am the way, I am
the truth, I am the way tosalvation and this is how it's
going to happen.
And he cared for everybody,everybody.
(59:10):
He didn't wait to say do youbelieve in me or not?
You know the blind guy on thecorner, you know, you can see
now, and the lame guy and thesick kids and whatever it is.
He went and he helped and he wasthere when people needed him,
when people whatever people hadheard about him, whether they
(59:35):
came to him through faith orwhether they came to him because
they heard this guy can healpeople and I need to be healed.
So this is the guy and heresponded to them in love and in
care.
And that is the example that Iwant to follow every day of my
life.
Right there.
I want to be a person that whenpeople look at me and if they
(01:00:04):
know Jesus, they're going to saythat was Jesus, and if they
don't know Jesus, they want toknow why did you do that for me?
And I'll have an opportunity totell them.
Speaker 2 (01:00:14):
Amen, so amazing.
You wrote down one of yourstories.
Your favorite stories is therestoration of Peter, the
forgiveness of Peter afterdenying Jesus three times.
Why is that one of yourfavorite stories, bill?
Why?
Speaker 1 (01:00:26):
is that one of your favorite stories, bill?
And, by the way, that was astory that Nathan Hausch that
was the gospel lesson that hepicked for his installation.
That's very cool, because Ithink of all the times when I
(01:01:05):
have intentionally and you can'tbe a pastor anymore, but he
said still to me restored meagain.
I still need you, I still wantyou, I still want you to be the
proclaimer of the gospel topeople, feed these people, and I
(01:01:26):
think about that so often,especially when I'm messing up
something.
Speaker 2 (01:01:32):
Yeah, jesus is so kind, he's the greatest leader
and lover of our soul and it'saudacious.
But he equips us out into hismission field by the power of
his spirit to bring hisnever-changing word to a
never-changing world, to meetpeople exactly where they're at.
Listener, I pray you've beentouched today.
(01:01:52):
Bill, you're a gift to me,you're a friend of mine.
I'm going to keep running forwell who knows how long, for at
least today, standing on theshoulders of those who have gone
before me in ministry or stillserving, just like you had Jerry
Kieschnick on a while back.
(01:02:13):
That caused some stir.
I know you and Jerry are goodbuddies and you know I guess I
even tease at some of thepolitical struggles in the LCMS.
I'm praying in this season thatthere is openness, that there's
care for one another, that wework from our places of
(01:02:34):
agreement and that we unite andcarry the gospel forward with
words and equipping thepriesthood of all believers, but
also recognizing we needwonderful pastoral leaders who
are in the Office of HolyMinistry.
Let's raise up more of them.
Send them to seminaries and tryand raise them up local.
(01:02:55):
If they can't go to seminaries,explore solutions to get them
trained in their local contextas well, so you're a gift to me.
If people want to connect toyou, bill, how can they do so?
Speaker 1 (01:03:04):
Let's see Email is good.
W-r-d-i-e-k-e-l-m-a-n atgmailcom.
Speaker 2 (01:03:14):
Amen, Amen.
Bill, this will be out in acouple three weeks.
Feel free to share it with yourfriends.
This has been a joy for me.
Listener, please like,subscribe, comment wherever it
is you take in conversationslike this.
Please go to our YouTubechannel and follow us, if you
haven't done so already.
Comment, and that really helpswith the algorithm to get the
(01:03:34):
word out on these Jesus-centered, fun conversations with women
and men within the LutheranChurch Missouri Synod and many
times outside the LutheranChurch Missouri Synod.
We have a lot to learn.
It's a good day.
Go make it a great day.
Thanks so much, Bill.
Speaker 1 (01:03:47):
Thank you, tim, great to be with you.
Bring the Word of God to them in such a way that they
are fulfilled number one intheir own faith, that they are
confident that they can go aheadand do something, that they
don't need to rely on the pastorthat they know.
I don't know how many timeswe've heard this over the years.
I would say something tosomebody, but I don't think I
(00:20):
know enough about the Bible.
You're never going to knowenough about the Bible.
Just go, trust the Holy Spiritin your life.
He's going to give you thewords to say he's going to move
your hands in the way that theyneed to be moved.
Let's just get to work together.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Welcome to the Tim Allman Podcast.
It's a great day to be alive.
The joy of Jesus is yourstrength as you lean into a
conversation today with a leaderin the Lutheran Church Missouri
Synod that I have respectedfrom afar and, from time to time
, close up in life and ministry.
I have Reverend Bill Dickelmantoday.
Let me tell you a little bitabout Bill.
(00:58):
In 2023, we were just talkingabout this before he hit play
Bill celebrated his 50thordination anniversary after
serving as pastor at St Mark inElko, nevada, and Faith in
Ossawa, oklahoma.
While serving as pastor at Faith, bill also served as the
Oklahoma district president backin 1991.
That was a great year.
(01:18):
I was 10 years old Until hiselection as first vice president
of the LCMS in 2004, an officehe served in as first vice
president until 2010, partneringwith Reverend Dr Jerry
Kieschnick in those years.
Carol and Bill are proudparents of six kids, 14
grandchildren and in theirretirement, Carol and Bill make
(01:41):
San Diego and St Paul LutheranChurch in San Diego their church
home.
So how are you doing, bill?
I'm excited for thisconversation.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Yeah, so am I.
I'm doing just fine, tim, gladto be with you this morning.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Yeah, this is going to be fun, all right, so let's
talk pastoral leadership.
Pastoral leadership.
As you think about pastoralleadership, what are the top I
don't know two or threecharacteristics you're looking
for in a pastor who takesleading the flock of Christ
seriously.
What are two or three of thosecharacteristics, bill?
Speaker 1 (02:10):
You know, before I get into that, on Saturday, just
two days ago, we installed atSt Paul's Church a new senior
pastor, hey Nate House.
Our former pastor Jim Henkelhad been there for 20 years and
the pastor Richard Alsing beforehim had been there 23 years.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
I don't know what happened before that.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Anyway, we installed Reverend Nathan Hausch as the
senior pastor on Saturday and Ithink just in a little bit that
I know about Nathan right now hedisplays these qualities that I
think are important, In noparticular order.
I think a pastor needs to beconfident about his own faith
(02:59):
and be able to explain it, todemonstrate it, to live it, to
let me know, as somebody said inthe pew on Sunday morning, that
this guy actually believes whathe's talking about, and I think
that a pastor needs to be ableto communicate that well.
More than just words, it needsto be demonstrated in everything
(03:24):
that he does.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Hey, let's pause right there, bill.
Let's pause on that one andmaybe pause just a bit on these
two or three characteristics.
Have you been in I mean, you'vebeen around different churches
over the years in your kind ofdistrict role and synodical role
, right, it kind of is mindblowing to me, but I know Satan
works and Satan wants to steal,kill, destroy and put doubts,
(03:46):
etc.
Like how could a pastor serve,preach, teach without confidence
in their faith?
That seems to be like it has tobe core.
Have you experienced, likechurches and pastors, that
you're like I don't know if thisguy actually believes what he's
saying.
Have you actually experiencedthat?
Speaker 1 (04:05):
I have experienced yes, I have an answer to your
question and I have had theopportunity and not bad
opportunities, by the way to sitdown with pastors who have said
to me I don't believe what weteach about baptism, and the end
(04:25):
of that conversation was youknow, you can't continue to be a
pastor in the Lutheran ChurchMissouri Synod, which they did
not, and they had the integrityto resign.
But I've had other conversationswith clergy who said you know,
I don't believe our confessionalstance and I can't bring up the
instances right now that pastorleft and joined the Roman
(04:49):
Catholic Church.
On the clergy and I'veexperienced that several times,
one pastor left for the GreekOrthodox Church and felt that he
was more in line with thattheology.
Some just left the ministrybecause they said I don't
believe what I'm preaching aboutanymore.
(05:11):
My word's not theirs, butultimately that was the end of
the conversation and thesepeople did it with integrity.
They were upfront about it.
We had some of thoseconversations were you know,
more than one.
It went on for a little while,but that was the conclusion that
we mutually agreed.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Yeah Well, crisis of conscience.
And when you're in a role likeours that is a public office
role, yeah, I couldn't imaginenot believing.
Believe your first one onbaptism.
I'm just, were they more intolike, believer baptism or
something like that?
They didn't.
Yeah, yes, coming of age kindof thing.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
How could, how could the Holy Spirit possibly, you
know, work in somebody thatcould not speak up for their own
faith?
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Yeah, okay.
Well, that's interesting.
I have just overwhelmed at theveracity, the truth, the person
and work of Jesus.
Like I'm kind of infatuatedwith Jesus Keep it safe, tim.
(06:28):
Like I'm kind of infatuatedwith with Jesus and uh, the well
, yeah, I mean the, the personin work, but the historicity of
Christ.
Have you done any while I'm onit right now?
Have you?
Have you heard anything aboutthis new research in the shroud
of Turin, bill?
Speaker 1 (06:37):
No, I don't know what you're talking about.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
What the burial cloth of the resurrected Jesus.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Yeah, yeah, I don't know about the new research into
it.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Well, I mean, there's just a lot of scholars, even
atheist scholars, who are sayingone it's dated to 2,000 years
ago.
There's Jerusalem dirt in thecloth, oh, limestone, there's
the flashpoint.
They put this you know, a clothhas multiple layers.
I'm not a, I don't work withcloth, I'm not a seamstress or
(07:08):
whatever, but the craziest thingthey can't reduplicate is the
flashpoint of light that tookplace, that created like a
photographic negative imprint ofthe body.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
That they can't science can't.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
They can't figure it out, they can't reduplicate it,
and it's like we believe, asChristians, the moment of
resurrection.
A dead guy who's dead forroughly 30 hours.
The cloth actually shows thathe had rigor mortis.
He hadn't returned back to.
He still was in a rigor mortisstate when life came back.
The father gave his son backlife and there's some other
(07:43):
pieces of evidence that are justastonishing Over 350 lashing
marks.
We know Jesus was beaten beyondrecognition.
The Gospels account for thatand that's one of the reasons
why he expires after he departs,after only six hours.
Normally it took much longerfor someone to expire on the
(08:03):
cross.
And this is another crazy point, or two other crazy points the
crown of thorns.
They see the crown of thorns,which was not like just a little
wreath.
It's three, four inch longJerusalem thorns and there's 30
marks.
They can actually see in theflashpoint 30 to 50 marks in the
head of Jesus.
And then there was an actualRoman spear in the side of this
(08:29):
man too, on this cloth thatperfectly duplicates a first
century Roman spear.
It's as if the Bible is true,bill, yeah.
It's as if the tomb is actuallyempty and Jesus lives and reigns
.
He's at the right hand of theFather and waiting to be sent by
the father to make all thingsnew, and he's given us a mission
as proclaimers of the gospel,to really, really deeply believe
(08:53):
.
And I think, as time goes on,science and evidence, et cetera,
is just converging more andmore for us.
I'm even listening to a.
I listened to Mel Gibson'spodcast with Joe Rogan.
Now I'm not promoting, theySwear, etc.
You guys know Rogan's podcastis one of the largest podcasts
in the world and Mel Gibson ison there.
(09:14):
He was referring to the Shroudof Turin and the recent evidence
that's come out.
I mean, it's prettyextraordinary, bill.
The evidence comes from allsides about this man who was
dead and then brought to life.
Anything more to say there?
Speaker 1 (09:26):
Well, that's amazing.
I'm happy to hear that.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
You don't need it.
I don't need it either, butit's just like wow.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
Yeah, over the years I've seen the photos of the
Shroud of Turin and read aboutit, but as far as these facts
that you've just stated rightnow, I hadn't heard any of that.
Pretty impressive.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Yeah, the carbon dating was false.
Like back now science has shown.
No, this cloth, I mean, that'sthe biggest thing that led
people to dismiss it.
They're like oh, it's only like700 or 1,000 years old or
something like that.
No no, no, it dates to firstcentury Jerusalem.
Pretty extraordinary.
All right, give us two morecharacteristics of pastoral
leaders there, bill.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
I think you know, pastors need to be able to
communicate, and I expect mypastor to communicate to me and
to have his heart for me and forother people as well, rather
than just perform the functionsand duties of a pastor.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
Well and again to the last.
Could you be a pastor and notwant to know your people Like?
That seems antithetical to meand I guess, to play devil's
advocate, some of us could be soprone toward mission, et cetera
or, on the other end, so pronetoward the liturgy has to,
everything has to be, and I missthe people who are around.
(10:55):
I've heard stories about you.
You know you get out early.
This is one of.
I try to get out early to, youknow, shake hands with people as
they're coming in.
If someone, if the HolySpirit's kind of put someone on
my heart that I know is walkingthrough a harder time, like
going before service, definitelyafter, to interact with them.
I want to know, and even in alarger church it may be kind of
hard, but I want to be presentwith people.
(11:15):
You know a shocking thing, Ididn't know, that some pastors
maybe this is your experiencetoo some pastors don't like
greet their people when theyleave.
They don't, they don't likestay accessible for a certain
period of time.
I mean, that seems kind ofbonkers, bonkers to me.
So, yeah, what?
What I know, what I know God'speople well enough, not their
(11:36):
name, their story.
That goes a long way and do Icare about their development
enough to say I I'm a part ofyour care, but for us it's a
larger church, right?
So there's other leaders, othersmall group leaders, who deeply
know your story and can prayfor you.
But yeah, I guess it's adisposition of the heart of the
leader.
Is he here for his people or ishe working either on the one
(11:59):
hand, just providing religiousgoods and services, or, on the
other, he's so focused on thefuture that he doesn't see the
people who are about bringingthe gospel out into that
preferred future?
Anything more to say there,bill?
Speaker 1 (12:11):
While you were talking, I was thinking years
ago, oh, within the last 10years, I had the opportunity to
attend a I think I'm saying thisright a Life Church TV or dot
com or something like that.
Yeah, I was visiting in Oklahomaand had heard about this and
(12:38):
went with some friends to thison a Sunday morning and the
pastor was not present at thissite.
And I learned later on thatthere were a number of sites,
maybe across the country I'm notquite sure how far it went, but
he was the preacher and heshowed up on a screen when it
(12:59):
was time to preach, but beforethat there was a local pastor
who led that.
There was music.
We were there early in themorning and the place was packed
all ages.
We were not the oldest peoplethere, there were no kids in the
room, but there were hundredsof people in that room, maybe
(13:20):
500 people in that room, andwhen the pastor was preaching
the people were reacting as ifhe were right there in front of
them responding, and they wereclapping, talking back to the
pastor, and I thought thesepeople have a relationship with
(13:40):
that guy and I don't know howmany of them have ever seen him
in person, and yet I got theimpression that they had a
relationship.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Well, yeah, that's a Craig Groeschel Life Church
that's it.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
That's the guy Craig Groeschel.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Yep, it's a fascinating move in American
Christianity right now thatthere are some larger church
pastors who have developedrapport relationship virtually
with congregants across thecountry I don't know how many, I
think they worship 20,000,something like that across
(14:21):
multiple campuses and manydifferent cities.
It's a unique approach.
I don't know that it's one thatwe can duplicate for a couple
of.
Not that we can't make use ofvideo preaching.
I'm not against necessarilyvideo preaching per se, but
every person needs a pastor andpastors who are around them.
(14:43):
It's hard to do the sacrament.
I think sacrament needs to bein person, and having call and
ordain servants of the word thatoversee the sacrament.
That's difficult, but maybe getyour take on this.
He's a communicator.
He's a relationship builder.
Craig Groeschel, he's beenremarkably gifted to be a
(15:04):
communicator.
He's a relationship builder.
Craig Groeschel, he's beenremarkably gifted to be a
communicator.
He's a preacher.
He's a proclaimer.
Is there a difference in yourmind between the preacher and
the pastor?
Because that's the distinctionthey make.
There's a preacher or apreaching team, and then each
campus has multiple pastors,depending on how big the size is
(15:26):
.
Do the spiritual care,discipleship, et cetera.
Have you wrestled with thedifference between preaching and
pastoring?
Speaker 1 (15:32):
Yes, yes, of course, my point with Craig Groeschel
Groeschel yeah, my point therewas, you there was not that I'm
advocating that style of churchor worship at all, I'm not.
But the point was that he waspastor to those people and they
(15:54):
felt that relationship.
I didn't, and that's the onlytime I've ever experienced that.
Uh, but back to what we weretalking about earlier.
Uh, I want to feel thatrelationship with my pastor and
the people for whom I am thepastor.
I want them to feel thatrelationship with me.
I want them to know that I,that I do care about them, I am
(16:18):
interested in their life and inevery aspect of their life and
I'm there to present thatresurrected Jesus to them in
every way that I possibly can.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
Yeah Amen, so confident.
We need to be able tocommunicate.
Do you have one more C?
You're a good preacher.
We're on the C track right now.
Is there another C Bill, orwhere are we going?
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Oh, I've kind of forgotten where we were.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
It's okay, it's okay.
So any other top threecharacteristics of pastors
they're confident about?
Their faith they cancommunicate.
You got one more.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
You asked about the difference between preaching and
being a pastor.
You know the two things areinterrelated.
I have a friend who was servingas a vacancy pastor and was
(17:17):
just getting ready to start,maybe in a couple of weeks, when
we had this conversation yearsago and I said well, that'll be
interesting getting to know adifferent congregation and
learning how to preach to them.
He said I've already writtenall the sermons and I said, oh,
good for you.
Not quite my style and I ammore interested in learning
(17:43):
where you are in your faithjourney and how can I help along
with that faith journey.
How can the word of God helpalong with that faith journey?
What does Jesus have to say toyou about your faith journey?
And it's more than okay.
Here's the text, and this iswhat I think about the text.
And here it is.
I think that the preacher hasthe opportunity to be the pastor
(18:09):
while he's preaching and tohelp people work through the
good things and the bad thingsin life.
But to help people work throughwell, what does this scripture
mean to me?
I understand, maybe, what StPaul was writing about to the
congregation in Corinth.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
But what does that have to do with me today?
Yeah Well, amen, If we don't.
The word is living and activeand it's also contextual.
And that is the preacher's job,I think connecting the timeless
truths of scripture to thehearts and ears of 20, 25
hearers.
There's art and science to that.
(18:47):
There's a lot of mystery aroundwhat that actually looks like.
I'm always amazed, you know,because I can't know.
You know we got close to athousand people there.
You know I don't know whereeverybody is, but the Holy
Spirit does.
And so the Holy Spirit like,connects the word of God.
If the pastor, if theproclaimer's heart is, like,
open to story, to application.
(19:09):
I know pockets of our story, Iknow the felt needs of different
groups of people, I know thatwe're suffering from addiction
and mental health crisis andrelationships being torn down.
And and since I know thosekinds of macro themes, that
allows me in real time.
A lot of times it's just theHoly spirit brings it to mind,
(19:29):
connected to the story.
That is a word that the Holyspirit connects for that person.
And you've had this bill.
They walk out.
How did you know what I'm like?
I don't know, I don't know, Idon't know that's the Holy
Spirit's work.
Anything more about the HolySpirit connecting, especially
for the proclaimer whose heartis open toward preaching to the
felt needs of his people.
How the Holy Spirit justconnects the dots and points
(19:50):
them to Jesus, it's prettyextraordinary isn't it?
Speaker 1 (19:53):
Yeah, there's a.
I was just thinking about anold collect from the Lutheran
hymnal.
When I grew up, we did pagefive in the Lutheran hymnal
every Sunday, maybe four or fivetimes a year.
When we celebrated the Lord'sSupper, we did page 15.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
You only did the Lord's Supper four or five times
a year.
It wasn't often.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
Wow, that's strange.
I think maybe once a quarterand a good Friday or Monday.
Did you not have a?
Speaker 2 (20:26):
pastor.
Did you not have a local pastor?
Oh, yeah.
You did have a local pastor.
It's not like there was acircuit rider.
You didn't actually have apastor.
It was just a tradition in someof those churches to only do it
quarterly or so.
Yeah, did you have private?
I'm sorry to just go deeper onthis one.
Did you have private confessionand absolution in that context
where people had to go beforecoming to the Lord's Supper?
Speaker 1 (20:48):
We did it on Friday night or Saturday night could
not make it.
The pastor did allow you to goon Sunday morning into his
office.
You had to walk in front of thewhole congregation to go past
the pulpit into his room andeverybody knew you know what
were you doing.
You didn't go to.
(21:09):
But I'll tell you, the firsttime I went you could not
commune If you and he wrote downeverybody's name and had that,
that piece of paper on the altarwith him, checked him off.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Wow, that's.
That's very different and Iguess maybe I'm getting super
pragmatic here.
Maybe he's like, because ifit's a church of 100 or 200
people or something like that,you know, in a rural community,
something like that, that he'slike that's a lot of people to
see, so maybe we can only likespace this out once, a quarter
or stuff like that.
That's a lot of, that's a lotof work.
(21:44):
Um, that, when did thatpractice in our context?
Kind of stop Cause I think I'ma very we, I love the mission,
but I think there is somethingvery, very powerful about
private for you confession andabsolution rather than just
corporate confession.
And I sound kind of old school,I guess, when I say that.
But yeah, yeah, I think therepeople need to hear, though your
(22:07):
sin is scarlet, it's as whiteas snow, it's gone as far as the
east is from the west, that theheaviness of conscience, what
you've done or failed to do,it's gone, nailed to the cross
with Jesus for you, bill right,so you're forgiven in the name
of the Father, son and HolySpirit.
And I think sometimes with thebig production or even larger
churches like ours, we lose thatpersonal invitation to
(22:28):
experience the healing words ofJesus for me, which the for you
component, for me component,that's very, very Lutheran.
Anything more to add to that?
Speaker 1 (22:50):
A couple of things.
When I became parish pastor in1973, I said, if you want to
make a private confession ofyour sins before communion, I'm
going to be in the church office.
And two people showed up andthe next time it was me.
So that's when the practicestopped for me.
People just didn't show up.
My vicarage congregation,redeemer Church, Bartlesville,
(23:12):
oklahoma, that pastor did notmake a big deal about it but he
did, I know, make himselfavailable for those that wanted
to do that.
In my ministry, of course,people have come at times in
their life with confession, butno one has made it a point to
(23:35):
come before receiving the Lord'sSupper.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
Yeah, I think it was a cultural season that just has
kind of changed, maybe for verypractical, pragmatic reasons.
I have the same approach as youdo.
If some person is burdened intheir conscience and it happens
from time to time they're atodds with a brother or sister in
Christ and they need to makethat right before coming and
(23:58):
receiving the body and blood ofJesus.
We do that Really.
The maybe better.
I don't know if it's better,but more practical approach from
a scale perspective is for usin small groups, like having a
leader who's able to know what'sgoing on and offer that word of
private.
You could say confession andabsolution, that moment of
(24:20):
confession, absolution.
We've seen a lot of success, Iguess, there in releasing the
office of the keys to thepriesthood of all believers.
Right, I oversee it, but it'sbeen released out.
Whoever sends you, forgive.
They're forgiven in the name ofthe Father, son and Holy Spirit
.
So we see that as kind of aleadership development
opportunity out in our community.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Yeah, what do you think about that, bill?
I think it's essential.
You have to do that, especiallyin a larger church.
You still are the pastor of thelarger church, but I can
remember Pastor Muzan Biggs atBoston Avenue Methodist Church
in Tulsa, oklahoma big church,and he and I were talking one
time and I said how do you dothat?
And he said this is how I do it.
(25:05):
I am the pastor of Boston AvenueMethodist Church and there are
14 other ministers here andtogether we do this and I
thought what a great approach.
There's no question.
You know number one about whois the pastor, and yet the
pastor work gets done throughthe other ministers that you
(25:26):
have in your congregation and ithas to work that way.
And I don't care what size thechurch is, there's always other
ministers around that are takingcare of people.
You know there are things thatthat happened when I was parish
pastor that I never knew about,didn't need to know about, and
one person taking care ofanother person, ministering to
(25:48):
their needs, and I said amen youknow we have to do it this way,
that's it.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
That's it.
Yeah, I'm.
I'm in a really sweet spotright now.
Our, our my other partnerpartner, Pastor Michael Hyden,
is great with spiritual care andleading our spiritual the
hospital and our goal is to haveat least a once a week often
(26:19):
it's more, but at least a once aweek touch with them to let
them know they're seen and lovedand cared for.
And yeah, it's pretty exciting.
But many hands make lighterwork, right?
I mean, if we got a team of 20,they have a couple people, a
couple, three people thatthey're engaged with, that
they're friends with, and thenpastors and things are in
(26:39):
rotation to bring the sacramentto them.
It just works better when we doit together.
It seems so simple, rather thanhaving to do everything.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
I remember years ago listening to Lyle Schaller.
He was really somebody that Ileaned on.
I read his books.
I went to every time I couldhear him in person.
I did.
And he said in his estimation,the average pastor could take
care of 75 people.
An exceptional pastor couldtake care of 150 people.
(27:09):
And he said many reasons ourchurches are the size they are
is because that pastor is takingcare of that many people, as
many people as he can take careof.
And that's the number.
And until you include otherpeople to assist and come
alongside of you in thisministry, that's what it's going
(27:32):
to be.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
Yep.
Well, and that's the way it isfor many churches in America
about that size, and that's oneof the reasons why the ULC, the
Unite Leadership Collective,exists.
We believe there are certainskills that pastors can learn to
move from doer to developer.
To lead others to do, topartner with him, to do the
works of ministry.
He's been called Ephesians 4,right to equip the saints for
(27:55):
love and good deeds.
That is in our job description,from, uh, from from Jesus and
the apostle Paul, and they,obviously they modeled that
right.
The rabbinic style of leadershipis like as you watch me do it,
you're going to partner Lukenine, Luke 10.
I've gone off on that many,many times.
I'm not going to do it rightnow, but Jesus gave others, his
disciples, the invitation andguess what?
(28:17):
It multiplied because they didthe exact same thing with the
communities that they were sentto.
It was never about just theBible, answer man, I am the
apostle.
No, it was always about as I'vereceived.
So I give 2 Timothy 2.2,.
As you have the ability toteach, Timothy, you've received
that from me, I've received itfrom Jesus.
Pass it on to other men who canpass it on to other men who
have the ability to teach, andoff we go.
(28:39):
The multiplying movement ofJesus moves out to reach more
and more people with the gospel,and when that is in your
culture, people are cared for inthe flock more effectively.
100%, 100%.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
There's no question about it.
Just think how much it takesjust to take care of you Exactly
.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
A lot, a lot, exactly .
So I need a lot, a lot of help.
So, anyway, let's get into.
The reason I was really pumpedto hear and get to hang out with
you today is what Mark Ernster,one of your friends, kind of
has commented and he's been aguest on the former American
(29:21):
Reformation, now Tim Allmanpodcast.
wonderful man of faith, layleader in your community, and he
was just so impressed with yourpastoral hospitality and
especially your work with thosewho are homebound.
So what is the role ofhospitality and emotional
quotient EQ skills in pastoralleadership?
(29:45):
Let's talk about hospitalityand EQ skills, bill.
Tell me about that phraseemotional quotient I uh, so yeah
, iq yeah, eq, eq eats, iq forbreakfast every day, breakfast,
lunch and dinner Meaning it'swe're not just, we're not just
brains on a stick, it's not justabout what you know right or
(30:06):
how smart you are, it's how umable you are to emotionally you
could say relationally, sociallyconnect to other people, to
mirror the emotions of otherpeople to.
You could say, show compassionand care and appropriate
challenge to people in variousplaces in life.
(30:27):
So as a pastor, we have to grow.
Ei is another phrase, emotionalintelligence, right.
How do I present growing inself-awareness?
For me over the years has beenTim, you can be loud and intense
, okay.
So let's pull back on theintensity from time to time,
harness the passion, but let'sbe aware of how that's impacting
(30:52):
other people, not just in thepreaching office, but in the
one-on-one or in the small group.
You do that very, very well.
It's subconscious, it's kind ofingrained in you the way you
naturally connect to otherpeople.
And if that happens in a pastorand then happens in a
leadership team, thatcongregation then begins to be
(31:13):
known for hospitality.
I'm not just going to go intomy holy huddle out in the
courtyard after worship, I'mgoing to actually have the eyes
to see who's new here, who'sisolated here.
Just yesterday I had aconversation with a first-time
family in worship.
After worship they said, hey,thanks for noticing us.
And we talked for five minutesor so and they had a great,
(31:36):
great experience.
And then they're like andyou're yeah, just to let you
know you're the third or fourthperson that's come up and
engaged with us.
Well, they're just kind ofhanging out watching to see if
anybody will notice them.
You have a ministry of noticingand the congregation is going
to grow in hospitality.
They start to become very, veryintentional about noticing
others.
That's the long answer to yourquestion.
What is emotional quotient?
(31:57):
We're aware of how we presentto others and in turn we draw
others closer to us rather thanpush others away.
Anything more to say there andhow that?
What role that plays in yourministry, bill?
Speaker 1 (32:10):
That is.
That is my ministry.
That is my ministry.
That's kind of how I operateand I think that's just because
that's who I am.
That's how I'm wired up, and Ilearned that about myself some
years ago through a Myers-Briggs.
By the way, I had avoided thatparticular instrument and got
(32:36):
involved with some otherdenominational leaders when I
was a district president inOklahoma and we hired a
therapist, an Episcopal priest,and we went once a month and one
of the things he did was sayyou have to take this
Myers-Briggs inventory.
And I had resisted because,number one, I didn't understand
(33:00):
what it was, and I thoughtsomebody was going to say well,
you're going to have to be aplumber instead of a pastor, not
that that would be bad.
Anyway, when we were goingthrough the results, he read
through all the things and thenwrite down the letters that you
think apply to you.
And I did.
(33:20):
And he said to me you know,that is who you are, you are
solid in here.
And he said you're not a bigthinker, bill, but you do have
great emotions.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
It's kind of offensive.
You have a great emotions.
That's kind of offensive.
You have a great mind.
Speaker 1 (33:36):
Recognize that over the year.
Most of the time when I'm doing, my thinking is when I'm
talking, and I've learned thatlater on too, some people
operate that way and that's howI operate.
Anyway, I think all thosethings that you just said about
the emotional quotient, I thinkthose are the words I would use
(33:57):
to describe myself and myministry.
I want to know who you are, Iwant to know your name, I want
to know your family.
I want to know those things.
When I stand out in the frontporch of church on Sunday
morning and you and your familyare walking up, I say, tim, good
morning, welcome to worshiptoday.
And when you're kneeling at thecommunion rail, I want to say,
(34:20):
tim, this is the body of Christfor you.
And when I come to visit you inyour home because you can't get
out anymore, I want to say,bernie, this is the body of
Christ for you.
And tell me about yourself.
Where do you come from?
How did you get to San Diego?
What's going on here?
Speaker 2 (34:37):
Those are important things to me.
We are storied individuals atour base.
We want to be connected to alarger story, and I would say
that that's God's story ofredemptive love.
And then we want to know doesGod care and do other people
care about my?
What could be, apart from faithin Jesus?
Meaningless, you know, hopelessexistence?
(34:59):
When we notice and make timefor people, we give value to
their story and we know theirname.
One of your special, I guess,superpowers, holy Spirit
superpowers, is knowing people'sname.
So let's talk about the powerof name.
What is in a name?
And then let's get superpractical on how you there are
(35:20):
some tactics for memorizingpeople's names more
intentionally, and let's talkabout that.
So what's so powerful in a name?
Bill?
Speaker 1 (35:29):
I did not pay much attention to that, tim, until
this.
First I want to say I feel goodwhen you call me by name, when
we haven't seen each other or wemet once or twice, and you come
up to me and you said, bill,remember we met in Orlando,
(35:49):
florida, three years ago and I'dsay, oh yeah, you know now I've
come back.
But that's.
That means something to me whensomeone can do that.
In my first parish.
I remember it was tiny, a coupleof hands full of people and a
family came to worship on Sundaymorning.
(36:10):
New to our church, said.
They were just new in ourcommunity and our newspaper,
local newspaper, came out onceor twice a week, I don't
remember what.
Anyway, on Saturday I waslooking at it and here was a
story about that family that hadbeen in church the week before
with their name and I had notremembered their name.
(36:32):
But when I saw it I said, oh,so the next day they were in
church and I called it by nameand he was just so impressed
that I had remembered his nameand that was probably a starter
time for me.
To intentionally say this isimportant because we became
great friends.
They became great workers inthat congregation brought other
(36:54):
people into our congregation, soI began already then being
aware of the power number one ofcalling you by your name,
(37:17):
calling you by your name.
But more, it just opened up ourrelationship, rather than
looking at you and trying tohave a conversation with you and
not knowing your name, and sowe don't talk about anything
personal.
We talk about the weather andthe Los Angeles Rams or whatever
it is it is, and we never getdown to you know, how can, how
(37:38):
can you know we work together onyour faith journey and on my
faith journey too.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
We're, we're in this together here.
Amen.
But there's something Icouldn't be a human apart from a
name.
Right, you look at the story ofMoses and the burning bush.
Who will, I say, sent me, and Iam right, even God takes a name
.
And then early in the Jesusstory, the angel has to tell you
(38:01):
will give him the name Jesus,he will save his people from
their sins.
I've seen different movies wherea person forgets.
This is like the tragedy, thetrauma of Alzheimer's dementia,
like when you forget your story,you even forget your own
personal identity.
There's a component to thatthat is hellish.
(38:21):
It just disembodied,disconnected, kind of I would
not know how to live apart frombeing Tim.
Right, my family gave me thatname.
I believe God, you know, gaveme, gave me that name.
He knew me before I was evenconceived in my mother's womb.
There's, there's somethingremarkably mysterious about how
(38:42):
people I was just thinking, likemy dog, she responds her name's
Roxy.
Roxy would still be Roxy.
I mean, I think there'ssomething connected to her name.
But even the, the creatures outin the wilderness, the bunnies
that are in the riparianpreserve right next to like
these bunnies, don't have names.
I think a name is intimatelyconnected to what it means to be
made in the image of God Adamand Eve.
(39:03):
They were named by God.
So anything more to say, though, on the power of name and how
awful it would be when we don'tknow our name, if we didn't know
our name.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
My identity, part of my identity, is my name and it's
, you know, my family's name.
I can remember a year or twoago, a classmate, good friend,
pastor Steve Wagner, san Antonio, texas, was relating a story
(39:35):
about when he was a young manand his father had a
heart-to-heart with him and saidremember this, you are a Wagner
and you are representing us.
And I thought, oh, that'spretty powerful in that name,
right there in my name, and I'vetold that to our kids when they
were growing up.
I said you know, this is yourname, this is who you are, and
(39:59):
people are going to know you byyour name and they do.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
And it's good.
Amen, it is good, and it kindof connects me.
At least our last names, right,multi-generational?
There's a higher calling that Ihave, so, yeah, how.
There's a higher calling that Ihave, so, yeah, how do you?
What are the tactics, though,for memorizing more names, bill?
Because I think a lot of timesthe pastor, I've had that
experience, like you just shared, where I remember their name,
and I've also had experienceswhere I just I can't pull it
(40:25):
right now, but man, I know youwere here and I'm so glad you
came back and I'm going to, I'mgoing to get better, I'm going
to get better at it.
So, anyway, let's get into howyou memorize names.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
The older I get, the more difficult it is for me to
remember, but the easier it isfor me to say I know, you told
me your name three times already, but will you tell me again,
because I don't have it andpeople are happy to do that,
they are happy to do that, noone takes offense at least
(40:55):
saying you know I told you threetimes already.
You ought to know by now.
Nobody treats me that way.
Now I was thinking.
Or when I was a parish pastorin Oklahoma, I went to a man
after church and they had beenthere the week before, and I
said so do they call you?
Should I call you Chuck orCharlie?
And he said well, why don't youcall me by my name?
(41:16):
It's Scott, and I had you know,complete, I thought he was
Charles for some reason.
Anyway, people are good.
There's a young woman at this atour church in San Diego and I
just couldn't bring it.
And finally she said to me it'sAnnie.
So when you look at me, justthink of orphan Annie, and then
(41:41):
you'll remember me.
And that's what it took.
It stuck.
So I do things like that, butmostly I just say you know, I'm
trying and I just tell people.
I want to know your name, Iwant to know about you, I want
you to know my name and they'rehelpful about it.
But it takes it probably.
(42:02):
Sometimes I remember right away.
It's not a not a difficultthing at all, but other times
four or five times before I getit For those of you who want to
get better at memorizing names.
Speaker 2 (42:13):
Thanks for your honesty there, bill.
By the way, I would give ashout out to Jim Quick and the
book Limitless.
He gives a lot of tactics thereusing the name three times in
your interaction with them,connecting the name to an
emotion, like what is theemotion that you're feeling, and
then connecting their name totheir story.
(42:34):
Can you have one image thatpops up in there?
Those are three differenttactics that people can utilize
and I do it good sometimes andnot so good.
Praise God, there's grace andpraise God, there's grace from
Jesus flowing to people who say,yeah, I know there's a lot of
people that you have to have tomemorize, and we're actually
toward the name thing, towardthe power of name.
(42:55):
Our congregation is going towardname tags, old school name name
tags, and we're printing themout.
We use planning center, um.
We're working toward printingthem out now printing.
How do you produce that manyname tags that quick, quickly
enough?
You know every single, everysingle week.
Uh, there are some churchesthat have really got good at.
(43:16):
A shout out to WoodburyLutheran, um, and Tom Fotenauer
up there.
But we're that's where we'retrending, cause it's.
It's really, really helpful inbuilding connection.
Our La Mesa ministry workingpoor and homeless.
Every week you come and someonewrites out your name tag.
Maybe we just do.
Maybe we just do that.
We're checking in, we're givingyou your name tag as you come
onto campus.
We could make it.
(43:37):
We don't even need the tech forthat.
For goodness sake, I'm going tobring that up in a meeting
today.
Let's just write out their nameBill.
Anyway, there's great power inname and then when you'd see
them out in the communityexactly, you've hung out, you've
seen them in worship.
Let's remember that name.
So let's work harder, churchleader, toward recognizing
people with the power of name.
(43:58):
Let's pivot toward talkingabout the priesthood of all
believers.
What are the benefits of we'vetalked around this a little bit
benefits of equipping thepriesthood of all believers and
I guess a side note we don't getinto in this podcast too much
of the LCMS kind of currentclimate.
But the one thing I would liketo get your perspective on is
clericalism in the LCMS.
(44:20):
Have you noticed an increase inclericalism in the LCMS and how
is that working?
And I think that could be atodds with Jesus' desire, the
early church's desire to equiprather than maybe control
everything that takes place inthe local church.
Say more there, bill.
Speaker 1 (44:40):
Tell me what clericalism means.
Speaker 2 (44:44):
Just the pastor, he's the cleric, he's the
distributor of religiousservices, word and sacrament, to
be sure.
But he is not just the Bibleanswer man.
He is the center point of allevangelism, he is the doer of
all of the ministry.
And one of my kind of formativestories was when I was at a
(45:07):
district conference this goesback seven, eight years ago and
we were talking about, I think,giving a vote toward our
commission church workers, right, and this young man with his
clerical collar.
Nothing against clerical collar.
I actually wear a clericalcollar when I'm robed up on
Sundays and sometimes evenbetween that, but I don't
(45:29):
necessarily wear it every day.
This young man, fresh out ofthe seminary, stands up and said
let it be known, in the churchthere are proclaimers and there
are hearers.
The two should not be confused.
And I was kind of frustrated, Iguess, with just the way he
said it, this very narrow viewof you sit, you receive, let me
(45:55):
do my thing, I'm the preacher,you just sit and hear.
The struggle I have with thatsort of a perspective is, again,
I think it's counter toEphesians, chapter four,
equipping the saints.
I think it's counter to the wayof Jesus.
Jesus actively preached and heinvited others to preach.
Now, not everybody has ateaching preaching gift.
(46:16):
I'm not saying we ordaineverybody or anything like that.
I am saying that every baptizedbeliever is sent out into their
various vocations this appearsto be very Lutheran into their
various vocations, to be amissionary, one who can tell the
story of Jesus both in theirhome and in their marketplace.
And the church should beequipping them to tell that
(46:38):
story rather than saying youhave to come and sit and be
silent, rather than, I think, toland the plane.
I think the local church at itsbest is seen as a catalytic
training center rather than justa place where people come and
hang for a week, do their wordand sacrament thing and check
the box and then off, they gointo there.
(46:59):
And I may be a little harsh onthat, maybe drawing too harsh of
a caricature there, but there'sjust and I think it's always
been a tension just to land theplane.
I think it's always been atension just to land the plane
here.
There's always been a tensionbetween who really does the
ministry here, you know, is itthe preacher, is it the people?
Anything more there?
So I went off on you, you talkabout clericalism.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
That's fine.
I just wanted to make sure thatI was answering your question
where you want to know a coupleof things.
First, 15 years ago or so inthat range, I was invited to
preach at a congregation I don'tremember the occasion now,
maybe dedication of a newbuilding or anniversary or
(47:41):
something a larger church andafter a church on Sunday morning
where I preached lunch and thenwhatever was going to happen in
the afternoon right after lunch.
So after, in between churches,I was looking for coffee and I
walked around and got into thegymnasium kind of room and the
(48:03):
women were setting up, somepeople were setting up tables
for the luncheon and they hadthe tables right down the
serving tables down the centerof the room, and I commented
what a great thought that wasthat people could go then on the
food line on both sides ratherthan having the tables, you know
(48:25):
, pushed up against the wall andand then you know no place to
move around.
Anyway, they started laughingand I said what's so funny?
And they pointed and the pastoror one of the pastors was just
leaving and said he just told usthat we need to take these
tables out of the middle of theroom and shove them up against
(48:45):
the wall.
And we said, well, this wouldbe a much better way, pastor, to
do it.
And he said, no, I'm yourpastor and you must obey me.
And I said, well, that didn'tget him too far, did it?
And he said you know, we've gota thousand people to feed and
we've got to do it in 30 minutesor something like that, and it
just wouldn't work otherwise.
So that was one of myintroductions to clericalism.
(49:12):
Wow, and there have been othersI did encounter over the years.
I can think now of a pastorthat refused to let anyone else
pray publicly in the church andit came to bear that he refused
(49:35):
to allow the Sunday schoolsuperintendent to pray with the
Sunday school kids before Sundayschool.
On Sunday morning they had intheir church a joint Sunday
school opening and devotion timebut he needed to be the prayer
for that and refused to letanybody else.
If you were having a meeting inyour church, then he was to be
(49:58):
invited to the meeting to be theprayer at the beginning of the
meeting, because that was hisjob as the called pastor there
at that church.
So these are extreme examplesof that and I have to confess
that in the past, oh, 10 yearsor so, 15 years.
I've been retired about 15 yearsnow, not quite.
(50:20):
Carol and I my wife and I we'dlike to travel a lot around the
country and we get into a lot ofchurches, and most times it's
we don't know anything about thechurch On Sunday morning.
We wandered into your churchone Sunday morning and you
remembered my name by the way.
That's great.
I was impressed with that.
Anyway, sometimes I get thesense that this is the man
(50:46):
that's in charge and he's intouch with everything.
You know, when theannouncements are made, for
instance, I can think of acouple of times.
Now call me, you know.
Don't call Sally, don't callJim, you know.
Call me and I'll let you knowmore about this particular event
(51:09):
that's going on, and it couldwell be that he was the person
to call for that particularevent.
So that's about as deep intothat as I've been getting these
days.
Speaker 2 (51:22):
Well, I got two follow-up.
These are deep questions.
Did the tables stay in themiddle of the fellowship hall or
did they go back the layleaders?
They kept them in the middlethere because it was just more
pragmatic.
Speaker 1 (51:34):
They didn't listen.
Speaker 2 (51:36):
Gentle rebellion against the pastor.
Toward those customs in thelocal church.
I realized there are peoplethat were here before me and
likely they're going to be hereafter me.
So as it relates to a lot ofthe customs of the church when I
came 12 years ago, like I haveto adapt, I may bring some
(51:56):
others.
But if I don't adapt, that'svery unwise for me as I enter
into this unique community inthis time and space and those
rituals like for us it's God isgood all the time.
See you in the courtyard.
I mean that's how we close,like every service.
Kids even say see you in thecourtyard.
I mean it's almost like aliterature.
(52:17):
We're going to move out in thecourtyard, we're going to do
fellowship together there.
So it would be unwise if I saidyou know what we're not doing.
God is good.
I don't want that call andresponse, you know anything like
that.
That would have been very, veryunhelpful.
But sometimes again this goesback to EQ and maybe coupled
with theology, around the officeof holy ministry pastors make
decisions that really hampertheir relationship with their.
It kind of shows disrespecttoward the customs of that local
(52:40):
parish.
Any thoughts there, bill?
Speaker 1 (52:44):
I remember, as a seminary student, I was said I
don't remember which professorsaid wait two years before you
move the altar.
Well, yeah, but you had askedearlier than equipping saints.
I felt, and I don't know why,if it was something I picked up
(53:22):
at the seminary or just my owngrowing up experience, you know,
in a small church, whatever Ijust felt that you know I was
the go-to person and I needed toweigh in on everything and if
you were going to do somethingyou better check with me.
But over the years I learnedand those were not always gentle
(53:48):
lessons and I appreciate themnow the people that were lay
people, that were forthrightwith me and said look, what are
you doing here?
I remember a couple of years agoI had a conversation with Mark
Zender from King of Kings inOmaha and I don't know, excuse
me, I don't know how we gottalking about it, but he said
(54:09):
you know, one of hisparishioners came and said
pastor, I think that as a churchwe need to make a food truck
kind of thing, because at nightthere's a lot of people out on
the street and you know, theydon't, they don't have something
to eat always, and I think wecould.
We could reach out to them andget to know them, and they could
get to know us and it might bea gospel-presenting opportunity.
(54:33):
And Mark said you know what?
I think that is a marvelousidea and I think you're the guy
to do it, and the guy went anddid it.
And I was thinking you know, 50years ago I probably would have
said well, we'll take it to thechurch council or we'll form a
committee, or we'll have ameeting or whatever it is.
People are.
(54:54):
People know stuff.
I remember old Charlie Mueller,now gone on to on to be with
the Lord, said you got to trustthe lay people.
They're going to take thiskingdom of God further than we
ever thought we could as clergy,and he is so right about that.
So we have to help people.
(55:14):
We have to bring the word ofGod to them in such a way that
they are fulfilled number one intheir own faith, that they are
confident that they can go aheadand do something and that they
don't need to rely on the pastorthat they know.
(55:37):
I don't know how many timeswe've heard this over the years.
Oh, I would say something tosomebody, but I don't think I
know enough about the Bible.
You're never going to knowenough about the Bible.
Just go, trust the Holy Spiritin your life.
He's going to give you thewords to say he's going to move
your hands in the way that theyneed to be moved and let's just
get to work together.
Speaker 2 (55:57):
Amen.
No, that's such a great posture.
The second question I had waswhere did that young man read in
the Bible or in the Lutheranconfessions that only pastors
pray in small groups orsomething?
I don't know where that comesfrom.
Could you help me understandthat?
Speaker 1 (56:15):
Yeah, I don't either because I asked him exactly the
same thing and he, I don't know,I don't remember he had a
response, but I don't rememberright now what it was.
Remember he had a response, butI don't remember right now what
it was.
But this is what that led tohis.
Uh, after a meeting, first withthe board of elders, I met with
him privately, then we met withthe board of elders and then we
(56:39):
accepted his resignation.
Uh, because it just was notworking for for anybody.
The congregation was stifledand uh, uh, and I, he, he, I
don't know what happened to him.
Speaker 2 (56:54):
So yeah, well, that's a.
That is an extreme example.
I don't think there are manyexamples, uh, in our church.
Uh, praise, praise God.
So this has been, this has beengreat.
Maybe my last question uh, bill, grateful for who you are, how
God made you um, the the careand sensitivity, the amazing,
(57:14):
amazing pastor over 50 years, uh, in our, in our church.
I'm grateful you're in theLutheran church, missouri synod
brother.
Um, so, as you look at Jesus,we've talked.
We started with leadership.
Let's close with leadership.
As you look at Jesus, what madehim like the best leader ever,
bill?
Speaker 1 (57:34):
Yeah, I was thinking about this, I don't know the
last couple of days when I wasthinking about it, martin, my
conversation, with ourconversation together.
I read this someplace, I don'tremember quite where, maybe
something that Guido Merkin'slongtime pastor at Concordia in
San Antonio, texas, he said whenI was a young pastor, and he
(58:00):
wasn't talking about himself, hewas just relating a story.
He said when I was a youngpastor I stood on the riverbank
and watched the peoplefloundering in the water and I
told them how to swim.
This is how you need to do itto get over here to the bank, to
safety.
And then in my middle years Ikind of kept one foot on the
(58:25):
bank and I put the other footdown in the river and I reached
out and I started pulling somepeople in and in my later years
I got in the water with them andI pushed them, helped them,
carried them to the shore.
And I think about Jesus.
He was in the water the wholetime and he was there with me,
(58:48):
with you, with everybody, notjust shouting instructions, this
is how you swim, but sayingcome with me, I am the way, I am
the truth, I am the way tosalvation and this is how it's
going to happen.
And he cared for everybody,everybody.
(59:10):
He didn't wait to say do youbelieve in me or not?
You know the blind guy on thecorner, you know, you can see
now, and the lame guy and thesick kids and whatever it is.
He went and he helped and he wasthere when people needed him,
when people whatever people hadheard about him, whether they
(59:35):
came to him through faith orwhether they came to him because
they heard this guy can healpeople and I need to be healed.
So this is the guy and heresponded to them in love and in
care.
And that is the example that Iwant to follow every day of my
life.
Right there.
I want to be a person that whenpeople look at me and if they
(01:00:04):
know Jesus, they're going to saythat was Jesus, and if they
don't know Jesus, they want toknow why did you do that for me?
And I'll have an opportunity totell them.
Speaker 2 (01:00:14):
Amen, so amazing.
You wrote down one of yourstories.
Your favorite stories is therestoration of Peter, the
forgiveness of Peter afterdenying Jesus three times.
Why is that one of yourfavorite stories, bill?
Why?
Speaker 1 (01:00:26):
is that one of your favorite stories, bill?
And, by the way, that was astory that Nathan Hausch that
was the gospel lesson that hepicked for his installation.
That's very cool, because Ithink of all the times when I
(01:01:05):
have intentionally and you can'tbe a pastor anymore, but he
said still to me restored meagain.
I still need you, I still wantyou, I still want you to be the
proclaimer of the gospel topeople, feed these people, and I
(01:01:26):
think about that so often,especially when I'm messing up
something.
Speaker 2 (01:01:32):
Yeah, jesus is so kind, he's the greatest leader
and lover of our soul and it'saudacious.
But he equips us out into hismission field by the power of
his spirit to bring hisnever-changing word to a
never-changing world, to meetpeople exactly where they're at.
Listener, I pray you've beentouched today.
(01:01:52):
Bill, you're a gift to me,you're a friend of mine.
I'm going to keep running forwell who knows how long, for at
least today, standing on theshoulders of those who have gone
before me in ministry or stillserving, just like you had Jerry
Kieschnick on a while back.
(01:02:13):
That caused some stir.
I know you and Jerry are goodbuddies and you know I guess I
even tease at some of thepolitical struggles in the LCMS.
I'm praying in this season thatthere is openness, that there's
care for one another, that wework from our places of
(01:02:34):
agreement and that we unite andcarry the gospel forward with
words and equipping thepriesthood of all believers, but
also recognizing we needwonderful pastoral leaders who
are in the Office of HolyMinistry.
Let's raise up more of them.
Send them to seminaries and tryand raise them up local.
(01:02:55):
If they can't go to seminaries,explore solutions to get them
trained in their local contextas well, so you're a gift to me.
If people want to connect toyou, bill, how can they do so?
Speaker 1 (01:03:04):
Let's see Email is good.
W-r-d-i-e-k-e-l-m-a-n atgmailcom.
Speaker 2 (01:03:14):
Amen, Amen.
Bill, this will be out in acouple three weeks.
Feel free to share it with yourfriends.
This has been a joy for me.
Listener, please like,subscribe, comment wherever it
is you take in conversationslike this.
Please go to our YouTubechannel and follow us, if you
haven't done so already.
Comment, and that really helpswith the algorithm to get the
(01:03:34):
word out on these Jesus-centered, fun conversations with women
and men within the LutheranChurch Missouri Synod and many
times outside the LutheranChurch Missouri Synod.
We have a lot to learn.
It's a good day.
Go make it a great day.
Thanks so much, Bill.
Speaker 1 (01:03:47):
Thank you, tim, great to be with you.
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