March 12, 2025 • 62 mins
Sarah Crowder shares her approach to teaching high school theology, creating inclusive spaces where students feel valued, and uncovering hidden stories of the Reformation while addressing Gen Z's unique challenges.
If you're a parent trying to help your teenager through their faith journey, finding someone who's gone through it before can help you know you're not alone. The gospel gift of forgiveness and restoration is exactly what our world needs.
• Designing classroom spaces where students feel they "belong here" regardless of faith background
• Approaching scripture with humility rather than standing over God's word
• Using music to help imprint God's love and promises into students' hearts
• Addressing Gen Z anxiety by recognizing mental health as physical health
• Creating safe spaces for students to ask questions and express curiosity
• Introducing students to lesser-known Reformation figures like Justice Jonas and Catherine Parr
• Incorporating prayer as a powerful way to connect with even non-religious students
• Building parent communication that supports family spiritual growth
• Embracing the Lutheran mission of sharing the gospel with communities
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
What misunderstandings do older
generations have aboutGeneration Z today?
Sarah?
Speaker 2 (00:05):
They're ready to make change.
They want to be valued and notthought down upon the heartfelt
emotions that they're pouringinto the writing for an
assignment.
I was so impressed that thesekids are super talented and I
think that we need to beempowering them and seeing them
as part of the body of Christand not as a burden or rolling
(00:28):
our eyes or, you know, somethinglike we can't understand.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Welcome to the Tim Allman Podcast.
I pray.
The joy of Jesus is yourstrength.
Today, as I get to hang outwith a sister in Christ that
I've admired from afar, heardamazing things about her and her
leadership at Faith LutheranHigh School in Las Vegas.
Today I get to hang out withSarah Crowder.
Let me tell you a little bitabout Sarah.
She spends her time pouringinto 14, 15-year-old freshman
(00:59):
high school students.
What an amazing call.
She's a graduate from Concordia,wisconsin, in 2000,.
An MA in theology with a focuson Reformation Studies from CUI,
concordia University, irvine,in May of 2020.
In the summer of 2024, she wasone of 10 students this is
really cool Student fellows atthe Wittenberg Center for
Reformation Studies, where shetraveled to Germany, england, to
(01:20):
immerse herself in thehistorical and theological
significance of the German andEnglish Reformation.
She just told me she got tospend three weeks with Reverend
Dr Bob Kolb.
Shout out to Bob Kolb, he'sbeen on our podcast before.
Such an amazing leader, man offaith.
And currently Sarah is in thePhD program at Concordia
Seminary in St Louis, withafocus on Reformation history.
(01:42):
She's the recipient of the RodRosenblatt Philosophy, theology
and Apologetics Fellowship.
That's so cool.
She's been married to herhusband, jason, for over 20
years and she's a loving motherto Katie and Brendan.
How are you doing, sarah?
Thanks for hanging with metoday.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Oh, we're doing good in Sin City.
It's a great place to doministry, so welcome Amen.
It's such a great morning.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Bring the gospel of Jesus Christ, turning sinners
into saints for sure.
So let's get into your highschool ministry.
What is your approach?
You were just telling me youhave a lot of students who don't
know about Jesus.
Right, our Lutheran schools.
The best parts of our Lutheranschools is that they're mission
oriented.
We want to bring as many kidsas possible onto our campuses so
(02:24):
we can tell them about Jesus.
So what is your approach toteaching the Bible to high
school students at FaithLutheran?
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Well, I just want all of my students to know,
wherever they're coming from,that they belong in this
classroom.
I like to share with them thatthey have been brought into the
space, and so I want thisphysical space to be super
comforting and calming, and sowe've done a lot of things with
the design of the room to makesure that when people walk in,
there's this sense of peace andcalm.
(02:51):
And I want everyone to know,especially my new students.
We have a growing school with agrowing population in Las Vegas
, where there's not a lot ofprivate school opportunities, so
a lot of people are drawn toour school just because it's an
alternative.
They don't really care or knowabout the Christian aspect, and
so I really want my students andtheir parents to know you
(03:13):
belong here.
We have built this schoolbecause we want to share the
gospel with you, and so youmight come from a different
religious background, you mighthave no family history of having
any faith.
God has brought you here into myspace and we are going to have
a great year together exploringGod's word.
And the thing I really invitethem to is I like they all get a
(03:34):
physical Bible, and it's forsome of them, it's the only
physical book that they have intheir backpack.
And I like them to think abouthow we're going to approach
God's word.
And I like them to think abouthow we're going to approach
God's word and I got this frommy pastor where a lot of us want
(03:55):
to stand over God's word andkind of point down and say I
want God's word to say this or Iwant you know, kind of putting
ourselves above God's word andholding it above us and
recognizing we have a loving Godwho cares about you, who
created you, that you have valueand purpose and that he has a
plan for you.
So what would life look like ifwe approach God's word this way
?
And so that's kind of theposture that we try to take in
(04:19):
the classroom is let's explorethis idea that God loves you so
much that he sent his son to diefor you because of his great
love.
And so in my room there's alife-size kind of glowing cross,
because I think if anyone'sgoing to walk into my room
they're going to know this isabout Jesus.
So we get to introduce kids toJesus and it's the best time we
have so much fun.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Oh, that's so amazing .
So talk about your space.
I've been into hospitalityrecently on a invite.
Building an invite.
Culture, I believe, is the nextquestion that we're going to
talk about God's doing somethingextraordinary in the lives of
people who have gone after theidols of our age.
We're idol making factories ashuman beings right, and they
(05:01):
eventually become unsatisfactoryand then we get to give them
the reason for the hope that wehave in the God made flesh and
the person and work of Jesus.
So how do you create a spacewhere people can hear get a
little bit more granular, if youwould how do you make kids feel
safe to receive the gospel?
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Well, for my room we actually got a special grant and
so my room was designed.
I want to say it was abouteight years ago now where we
received a special grant toimagine what a classroom of not
even the future of what todaylooks like versus industrial
revolution, and so my teachingpartner at that time was Dr Will
Stelzer, and we tried to createa space that would be super
(05:42):
inclusive for group work, sothat the tables and chairs are
very comfortable and movable, soeverything's on wheels and can
have blocks, so when the kidscome in it's a very comfortable
space.
I also I always joke with thekids I don't do TikTok or
anything, but we had read somestudies that talked about color,
color use in education and wehave a back wall where there's a
(06:04):
light panel, and so I said Iwas tick, tock, cool before
those kids do all the you knowbedroom lights with it.
We, we installed this, like youknow, kind of high techie color
wall in the back to help withtransitions, and so I'll do that
.
Sometimes, when we're trying tochange, shift the tone of the
room, I can say, okay, now we'regoing to do quiet time, let's
do like a blue color, and thenfor the next 20 minutes we're
going to just kind of be chill.
(06:25):
Or sometimes we'll play areally intense game where we're
I like to use this a lot ofgames in class and we use this
game kit game where we'refighting aliens, and so I turn
the lights green and you know wegot to have fun with that, and
(06:46):
so so there's the color, thecolor thing, and then really
it's the messaging.
Whenever I'm having a openhouse event, I love to sign up
for the, whenever I can to meetthose new families, and I always
write on the whiteboard youbelong here.
Because I think, for whatLutheran schools can offer is a
place where you get to belong aspart of this community, and
really that's so important, um,in the, in this, in this ever
(07:06):
changing world.
Uh to to say to each of thesechildren you belong here, you
are uh welcome here, and youmight be feeling nervous, uh,
but you're the person I'mconcerned about the most and so
I'm going to make sure that youfeel comfortable, that you feel
safe and that, um, no matterwhat happens, we're going to
learn together.
It's going to be a goodexperience.
(07:26):
So that's kind of.
Those are some of the theapproaches.
Something fun Also my sister'sa illustrator and I asked her to
make a two big drawings of themap of Israel and the map of the
middle East, but with no, no,no words on it, and then we
installed glass over the top ofit so it becomes like a
whiteboard, so we can kind ofdraw different maps and erase it
(07:47):
.
You know, use that.
And so it's a lovely space toteach and it's.
I love the location of wherewe're doing ministry and I love
teaching high school.
A lot of people are wonderingyou know, with my PhD, am I
looking to go out of high school?
The PhD, really, for me, isreally a I looking to go out of
high school.
The PhD really, for me, isreally a passion project to
unlock some of the Reformationstories that aren't in English
(08:10):
yet, but my heart is really withteaching 14-year-olds.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
So, yeah, Well, it sounds like it's a calling and
you don't you know, it is acalling.
Yeah, we have some about thecall in our Lutheran church.
Praise me to God.
You've been called to pour intoyoung people, so let's go a
little bit deeper in terms ofwhat your year looks like,
because I think there's a lot of.
There could be parents whomaybe, you know, sometimes they
(08:37):
may feel guilty.
I don't know that I've doneenough to teach my kids the
truths of scripture.
Jesus, fortunately, doesn'twork through guilt or shame.
He works through love andinvitation, and so maybe maybe,
as you talk about this, therecould be one or two things that
a parent or a pastor who couldbe a parent could take and say
this is the right.
Next thing, as my kids aremoving from kind of the 12, 13,
(08:57):
14, the mind is changing.
You know they're hittingpuberty.
All those different types ofemotions are flooding.
So what is your approach atthat unique, I'd say pivotal
stage 14, 15 years old that youtake in sharing the greatest
story ever connected to the Wordof God?
Speaker 2 (09:12):
It's such a fun year for these kids.
It's horrible actually for them.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
It's horrible, you remember.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
But for me we get student aid sometimes and I had
a girl who I didn't ever have asa freshman but I had her as a
student aid and she came in andshe was like first quarter.
She was like, how do you dothis?
They're so weird and terribleand awful and I was like I know,
but just wait, because we getto witness their kind of
entering into it, like just waituntil we get to the last unit.
(09:42):
You are going to see themtransform and it's so cool and
it was really cool to kind oftake her along this journey.
I got to say I'm really my dadwas in ministry and he would
talk about how his own life haddifferent stages of ministry.
So when you're young you havethis kind of brotherhood,
fellowship with the students andI got to experience that when I
(10:02):
was first out of college.
But then you're in this kind ofmore mature stage and I'm at
the stage where I feel it's somuch more comfortable because
I'm older than most of mystudents' parents and actually
I'm even teaching some of myformer students' children, which
makes me feel extremely old.
But what that means is I cancome in, especially when I'm
(10:25):
communicating with parents and Ilove to communicate with
parents.
Teacher-parent relationshipscan be tricky and I don't think
everyone, I wouldn't recommendthis for everyone, but for me,
really investing time into myparent communications to offer
encouragement for them ratherthan just, like you know, just
(10:45):
content, I think has been areally beneficial thing.
So what would I say to parentsis just, sometimes it's really
helpful to find someone who'sgone through it so that you can
know that you're not alone,because it can feel very
isolating when your teenager is,you know, kind of going through
all these developmental phasesand you don't know what to do
(11:06):
and how to have theseconversations.
And so what I try to do as ateacher and this is I have a
kind of unique scenario, I think, but whenever I have an open
house and the teachers come,it's like usually the first
month, or I'm sorry, the parentscome.
They are so curious about myclass because many of them have
never taken a theology class,and so I'll get comments like I
(11:29):
wish I could be in your class,or I wish I had a teacher who
taught things like you teach,because they didn't have that
opportunity when they were kids,and this really stuck in my
brain and so I really startedleaning into how can I, in a
loving, non-burdensome way,teach my parents what we're
doing in class, and so I'vemoved.
(11:51):
A lot of this came out of COVIDas well, where I really wanted
my students to have a cleargospel proclamation and not
through a mask, like I waswearing a mask in a classroom,
but I wanted to make sure mycontent was clear.
I wanted to make sure mycontent was clear, so I made
sure to do high qualityrecordings of my content so that
my students would get to hearthe clear gospel without any
kind of barriers.
And I was like maybe what Ineed to start doing is
(12:13):
communicating that with theparents as well, and so, through
YouTube and through my emails,trying to share with them what
their students are learning inclass and teaching them also
ideas of what they could betalking about or encouraging
them to take their kids tochurch.
A lot of our families aren'tattending church at all.
That's not a priority orexperience that they've had in
(12:35):
their life.
So that's an invitation that Iget to extend out, and I just
sent an email this week.
You know where I like to be theperson.
If you're at our school and youdon't know what to do.
You can contact me and I'llhelp figure something out.
I want to be that helpfulperson.
So, I think, find find ahelpful person that you can go
(12:56):
to and and just be patient andlistening to those kids, because
they are going through a lot ofhard times and I I've noticed
they're missing a lot of thenormal maturity mark points and
so we're seeing some differentthings.
So if you're feeling like thisis confusing, I think we're all
right now a little confused anduh, but but we're not alone.
(13:17):
We're in a community and, uh,you know, take advantage of the
communities that you're in.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
I love that.
So as you teach scripture, doyou teach.
They have their first Bible.
I'm really just curious aboutthis from an evangelical
perspective.
Do you teach the Bible as oneunited story or yeah, how is it
that you because we're allstoried beings, right, we
communicate and we put ourselvesinto story rather than just
(13:46):
doctrinal statements et cetera,right?
So tell the story to give evenparents and other pastors a way
in which you articulate it tothat developmental stage of
young people.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Well, really, what I say my classroom is about is the
same thing that the Bible isabout.
It's all about Jesus, and so weuse a metaphor, an image of a
bow tie, and this idea of all ofthe New Testament and all of
history is rooted in Christ, andI like to kind of break down
the Cairo symbol to the studentsand help them, give them a
(14:20):
little preview of what we'regoing to learn in our origins
and reliability of scripture,about.
You know the biblical languagesand what these symbols mean,
and what does it mean?
That Jesus is Christ and thatall of scripture is tied into
that work of salvation thatJesus did.
So, really, when we're lookingat the Bible, I like to describe
it to them as well, somethingthat they're probably not super
familiar with.
But this is a library of booksthat is collected together that
(14:42):
gives us so many different ways,because our brains are
different from each other andthere's different ways that we
can learn about the person andwork of Jesus, and so how do I
approach it when they're firstcoming in?
It's all about Jesus and themetaphor we use to talk about
scripture, and we're starting anew unit where we're going to be
practicing reading in context,something we do every week with
(15:05):
our memory verses, but the mainpicture is that it's all about
Jesus, it's all about his workand what that means in your
relationship for you.
That work on the cross isactually something for you today
and that means you get to be ina right relationship with him
because of what he's done andwhat a blessing that is.
How will that change how werespond to our neighbors in love
(15:26):
?
And so we're always thinkingabout my goal as a teacher and I
think I actually said this outloud I want you to stop looking
at yourself and worrying aboutyourself.
Let's look to the cross andlook to our neighbor and look at
how we can love and serve oneanother the way that Jesus loved
us.
And so the first this is kindof fun for parents, and I did a
(15:51):
talk on this last June Somethingthat kids today really respond
positively in an authentic way.
Not in a Facebook post and kidsaren't on Facebook, so don't
even try that but they reallyrespond to prayer.
Even my non, even my militantatheists really love when I pray
(16:12):
for them.
They think that's neat.
And so if you are in acongregation or you're a parent
and you're wanting to build upyour, your students' faith life,
be in prayer with them, and sowe start with the Lord's Prayer,
we start with Jesus and westart with the Lord's Prayer and
we pray in class, and we prayfor each other and something.
(16:33):
Kids are very hesitant to speakup in class and sometimes needs
are somewhat personal, and so Itry to develop an interesting,
safe, online relationship withmy students where every week,
through assignments, I'msoliciting prayer requests from
them, either a prayer request ofsomething they need, a
(16:54):
supplication, or something thatthey're grateful for, so we can
always everybody can embracethat gratitude and all of our
gratitude comes from God.
So the practice of prayer issomething really valuable for
kids today and that's a reallyeasy connection point for us.
But to make it personal forthem and to know what their
concerns are, they are very muchappreciative of when people are
(17:17):
praying for them and knowingtheir needs.
I think that's something thatthey really, really appreciate
in our classroom space.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Hey, that's so good.
I love how personal you arewith your students and how you
center it all on Jesus.
Shout out to Dr Mittendorf atConcordia, irvine, right With
the bow tie kind of image.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Creation to recreation, the center point in
between is crucified and risenand reigning one, Jesus that's
right between his crucified andrisen and reigning one Jesus,
and the sending that he has nowby the power of his spirit
through us, through the body ofChrist, through the baptized, to
bring the love and light ofJesus in anticipation of Jesus
returning.
I love your passion, I love howpersonal you are.
Prayer is very, very personaland I just can already sense the
(18:02):
rapport and care.
I got a freshman daughter.
My youngest is a freshmandaughter.
I'm like I wish she could learnfrom soon to be Dr Sarah
Crowder.
So, yeah, super, super cool,let's get into, let's get a
little higher level.
On Generation Z, I believe Godis doing something incredible
with that generation.
My son I was just returningfrom a basketball game in Payson
(18:22):
that's about an hour and a halfaway from where we live and so
I got the joy of driving himback from that game yesterday
and he wanted to talk and listento podcasts on apologetics.
It was so I couldn't believe it.
Actually I was like this isawesome.
He goes.
Have you heard of so-and-so?
He knows all these differentapologists in and outside of the
(18:44):
Missouri Senate.
It was such a fun time.
His brain is moving in abeautiful direction.
He's a sophomore, he's 16.
In a beautiful direction towardwhat is this thing called
Christianity, and not just howdo I defend it, but how does it
take shape in me and shape how Ilive every single day.
I feel like within him andwithin his generation, there's a
(19:06):
real spiritual awakening that'staking place right now.
So what misunderstandings doolder generations have about
Generation Z today?
Sarah?
Speaker 2 (19:16):
I'm not sure I could speak to specific, like data,
but I think it could be general,just older people to younger
people.
They're ready to make change.
They want to be valued and notthought down upon.
Something that has reallyinspired me the last two weeks
is looking at some of mystudents' writing samples and
(19:37):
with the advent of AI and thiskind of there's a lot of fear.
I think rightfully so.
But there's also a lot ofskepticism with.
You know how do you assess astudent's work if you're not
sure they made it?
But we have a system at ourschool where they're writing on
a locked down computer, sothere's no AI involved and the
(19:59):
care that they're putting intotheir crafting of their words
and the heartfelt emotions thatthey're pouring into the writing
for an assignment.
I was like so impressed thatthese kids are super talented
and I think that we need to beempowering them and seeing them
as part of the body of Christand not as a burden or rolling
our eyes or, you know, somethinglike we can't understand what
(20:23):
they're going through.
They've had the things theyface.
I never had to face the thingsthat they go through on a daily
basis or the thoughts that theyhave.
You talk about a safe place.
You know it's not.
They don't go to safe schools.
They go and they're thinkingI'm scared to put my phone up in
(20:44):
the caddy because if somethinghappens how will I text my mom.
You know what I'm saying.
So we live in a totally scaryworld.
I think similar to you, watchthe old videos of the kids doing
the drills for the nuclear.
You know the nuclear thing.
We're doing drills all the timefor active shooters.
Imagine what that's like.
We didn't grow up with that.
(21:04):
We didn't grow up with that andthankfully, but I would say
there's a lot of room forcompassion, for us to reach out
to these students, to encouragethem, to pray for them and to
empower them to step intoleadership and help them as
they're making choices aboutwhere they're going to be going
in their future, and bealongside them and not looking
(21:25):
down on them.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Love your heart.
It's so good.
Anxious Generation.
Have you read the AnxiousGeneration?
Speaker 2 (21:35):
I haven't read it I have so much limited time on
extra reading but it'sdefinitely on the list and I've
listened to some podcasts aboutthat and I don't doubt it.
I don't doubt it and so I thinkit's so powerful.
So in my own home I've got a13-year-old who's Chinese, but
(21:56):
from New Zealand, so we hostinternational students and I
have my son who's 17.
And so the anxiety in the homeconnected to cell phone use.
It's one thing to say you're onyour cell phone all the time,
but really I got to point myfinger at myself I'm on the cell
, I'm on my phone more than thekids are in lots of ways.
And so demonstrating that notfinger pointing, but actually
(22:19):
demonstrating you know what theworld's kind of crazy right now,
at seven o'clock, let's putthese phones.
Let's all just put our phonesaway, like let's just take a
break and be together, or, youknow, having family meals
together and listening andtalking to each other.
It's not something that theyneed, it's something we need
right, the anxious generation.
(22:39):
I think we are also in thatspace of caring for these kids
who have such really highanxiety and real depression.
Something that we just did inclass we do an adversity unit
where we kind of trace.
I want them to get a sense ofthe Old Testament scriptures and
I also like to we spend sometime in Job.
(23:00):
We do like five chaptersthere's just so many chapters in
that very dense book and wetalk about grief and how we can
think about grief and connectionto the cross, and when we're
thinking about anxiety anddepression and the mental health
(23:21):
crisis that this generation'sgoing through, to not see that
as something like made up orimaginary, but to actually know
that mental health is actualphysical health, I think is
something that maybe we are notaware of.
I feel like the kids are awareof this more than I and my
generation are aware of, and Idon't think sometimes we
(23:45):
recognize that mental health andsevere anxiety and depression
has a very real presence intheir physical life.
It's not just something that'sin a head or something like this
, and so to respect that, whatthey're going through, and to
try to understand that, I thinkit would be really helpful in
loving this generation.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
Isn't it cool, so good.
Isn't it cool how Jesus comesto us.
This is deep Lutheran theology.
Right, we don't draw near toGod.
He and the person and work ofJesus is drawn near to us.
And there are certain storiesin scripture, I think you bring
up grief.
You know the story of Lazarusand Jesus weeping with Mary and
(24:27):
Martha.
You know sitting with them intheir pain and suffering,
offering the hope of theresurrection, and then Jesus
restoring Peter.
There's a kindness and acompassion to Christ that is
overwhelming.
And then, as you teach them whoJesus is and how much he loves
them, he's the reigning one.
I've been on a kick recently ofthinking where is Jesus right
(24:51):
now?
Well, he's reigning over allthings and by the power of his
spirit he makes you thecrucified and risen.
And reigning Jesus by the powerof the spirit makes you his
dwelling place.
So he's nearer to you than youcan possibly imagine.
He's carrying you, he loves you, he smiles over you and he
cries.
He cries with you.
Yeah, anything more to sayabout the kindness of Jesus?
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Two things I think it's important to get to the
blood of Jesus like the actualsacrifice and, um, the.
The other thing I think isimportant when you talk about
anxiety and soothing is thepower of music.
And so, um, when I I taught at,faith was my first call, and
then we moved to Missouri andthen I came back, and when I
(25:36):
came back, my, my good friendand mentor, bob Matthews, said
Sarah, never stopped singingwith the kids, cause the Holy
Spirit works through music toimprint God's love into their
hearts and God's word and hispromise.
And so I make a habit ofMondays and Tuesdays doing song
day, and yesterday, as we wereconcluding our adversity unit,
(25:56):
they took the quiz and Iactually moved Songae to the end
of class and I just said, kindof what you were just saying of
hey, we all have our adversitiesand there's some adversities in
this room that you've nevereven shared with anyone.
But Jesus knows this and hecomes down to us.
We don't have a far off Godwho's observing our grief and
adversity from afar, but Jesushas joined up with us.
(26:19):
And then what do I get to do?
We get to sing this dust by KipFox, where it talks about his
mercy rains and his blood coversover all of this dust and
connecting it to Job's, you know, lament and it's beautiful, you
know.
And I had a.
I had a person man.
I wish I could do a podcastwithout getting teary-eyed, but
(26:40):
it's fun to talk about what Godis doing.
I had someone come and serve myclassroom last Friday and he
said that he went to collegewith one of my students I taught
and let's see, this would havebeen like eight years ago and he
still remembers the grieflesson with this dust song and I
had kind of forgotten that Ihad done this dust with the.
(27:00):
But because that sticks and ifwe can use, you know, we.
I just took a class with DrOlowski on the Psalms and the
power of singing God's word toimprint it onto our hearts so
that that actually can bringhealing and comfort and soothing
.
God's given these gifts and weget to share them.
That's awesome.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Human beings are hardwired for story and for
experiences that shape us.
And sometimes as Lutherans,because we don't want to be
enthusiasts, et cetera.
It's about God's work, not usascending by the power of our
passionate praise or anythinglike that.
Sometimes we kind of walk rightpast the power of an experience
(27:45):
with the crucified and risenJesus as His people sing His
praises, in whatever style, aslong as it's good music
connected to the scriptures, letthat song be heard.
That's amazing that someonewould come back and they
remember One.
They remember how much you lovethem.
They may not remember all thelessons, but some, some lessons
(28:07):
the Holy Spirit at the righttime brings to mind, especially
a grief story, because in thisworld you will have trouble.
So when these kids go out inthe world, where is God?
In the midst of my suffering,he's right there with you.
He cares for you more than youcan possibly imagine Anything
more to say to the power ofexperience there, sarah.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
Well, I just was having a meeting about AI stuff
and you know I subscribed toBernard Bull's sub stack and
talking about how do youcommunicate in an unchatbotable
kind of a way, and so how can weshare the gospel in a powerful
way in this AI world, where Icould just, you know, I could
(28:44):
and I've been, you know,throwing some of my lessons into
AI and saying how can I improvethis, how can I make it better?
But to make it impactful, ithas to be an experience that
I've lived, where I'm sharing myexperience with the students
and so I can teach them about,well, some of the questions we
just had, our Lutheran SchoolsWeek and our baptism chapel, and
(29:05):
a lot of students wonder couldI be baptized twice or what if
someone wants to be baptizedtwice?
And I can explain that to them.
I could use scripture and I do,but I can also tell them the
story about the time when my dad, you know, kind of walked away
from his faith for a time andcame back and wanted to be
rebaptized and how he struggledthrough this with his pastor and
(29:26):
his realization of how baptismis God's work.
This is not something that I'mdoing and that God's promise
that he made to me when I was ababy is true, because it's God's
work, not mine.
And so when we the experience iscrucial for today because
that's where reality is whenwe're dealing with all of these
(29:49):
different ways of communication,if it is true from my lived
experience and I'm beingtransparent and open with my
students that's real powerfulexperience that they can draw
from, and so I'm really kind oftrying to lean into.
As I'm teaching my students, Iwant to show and demonstrate how
(30:11):
the Christian life looks.
It should look joyful, itshould look difficult because
we're doing uncomfortable thingsand we're going into
uncomfortable spaces becausethat's where Jesus calls us to,
and so you've got to kind oftake the kids with you when you
go and have these experiencesand sharing the experience and I
think I was talking to one ofour other teachers who's
(30:31):
developing a leadership classand he wants to take them on a
mission trip so they can getsome leadership experience and
have that mission opportunityand I think in education, with
this changing world, theexperience of travel and
learning from other cultures andbuilding relationships, that's
where the huge value is going tobe going forward, and it's
always been there, but it's likeeven more clear now that that's
(30:54):
where we need to be.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
Yes, amen.
So grateful for you.
This is so much fun.
So let's get into theReformation.
You said, yeah, let's justpivot to the Reformation.
You said there are someunearthed stories of the
Reformation that you'reexploring.
Give me a couple, three of yourfavorite of these unearthed
stories that the average Jesusfollower and Lutheran who comes
(31:18):
from that Lutheran foundation,that Lutheran heritage, would
really, really resonate with.
I'm curious.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
Well, so my poor husband you know, he, he, I, you
know I, I'm so happy to teachtheology and I'm so happy being
a teacher.
And back in 2017, my husbandwas like you really need to get
your master's, you know it's payscale, Like you got to move
them.
And I was like I don't to getyour master's, you know it's pay
scale, like you got to movethem.
And I was like I don't want todo anything for a fricking pay
(31:44):
scale.
That sounds awful.
But then I saw that ConcordiaIrvine had a reformation history
cohort and I had that.
This is when I was like really,I still am really into Hamilton
.
Are you a musical?
Speaker 1 (31:56):
guy oh my gosh, I was like really seen it a couple
times.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
Oh my gosh, I was like really into Hamilton and I
had this thought I actually wasin a trailer, like in a camper,
with my friend my best friendfrom growing up, and I was like
what if I could learn enoughabout the Reformation that I
would know what all thesefigures sound like and who
they're fighting against and howthey're harmonizing or speaking
?
You know what kind of musicwould I sign to Luther or
(32:20):
Erasmus or you know the emperorLike?
How would they interact witheach other in a way that I could
demonstrate that in a new media?
So I'm not like a I'm not a PhDstudent who's going into the
academic world because I like towrite papers good grief or like
I don't really want to teachcollege at all, but I do love
(32:42):
these stories and the one thatgot me.
Well, the thing that reallystarted this whole journey is I
had Dr Scott Keith, who's theexecutive director for the 1517.
He was my creeds andconfessions teacher and I was
writing a paper on a catechism.
I'm like, oh, I'm a teacher, Ishould do the catechism.
And it all started with thisfootnote I think it's in the
Book of Concord, or thehistorical context of the Book
(33:03):
of Concord the introduction tothe catechism, where there's
because Dr Keith just was likeyou always have to chase the
footnotes, that's what your gameis.
You're always looking at thefootnotes, that's where all the
good stuff is.
And so I was trying to takethis advice.
(33:35):
And there's this littlefootnote, and I should ask Dr
Kolb if he wrote this footnote.
But basically saying thatLuther wrote the small catechism
, even though he had toldJustice Jonas and this other guy
to write the catechism, waskind of like why would this guy
not do what Martin Luther asked?
Who is he?
I've never heard of him and howcool of a name is Justice Jonas
.
And so then I was like I'mgoing to explore this a little
bit and find out that JusticeJonas I think is a fascinating
(33:56):
lens into the story of theReformation, the impact of
humanism, his experience being acanon lawyer, his experience at
Erfurt, his relationship withErasmus.
But the thing that I love themost and I will never stop
talking about this story, I willalways talk about this story.
When he is hired to come fromErfurt to Wittenberg to teach,
(34:19):
the elector calls him to teachcanon law, which is, you know,
basically the laws of the church.
He's not so excited about thisand Luther and Melanchthon, are
so excited to get another reallytalented translator he's really
known as being a goodtranslator and so they both kind
of write to the elector likeplease, can he teach Bible or
teach you know something, notcanon law?
(34:39):
And the lector would not change.
And so Jonas, out of his ownpocket, hire someone to teach
canon law.
And he comes to Wittenberg andteaches the Bible and I'm like,
oh, okay, okay, this is good,this is what it's.
It's.
It's it's that you know.
And so the thing that's funny is, trying to read about Jonas,
(35:01):
almost all of his primary stuffis still only in Latin and
German.
And so I'm going around askingpeople, I'm trying to read this
paper, but it's in Latin.
What do I do?
Or where can I find an Englishtranslation of this?
And everyone's like that'squestions a PhD student would
ask.
And I'm like, well, I teachhigh school, so I don't need a
PhD, but couldn't stop.
(35:22):
But my thesis got me reallyinterested into the English
Reformation because as I'm doingthis catechism research and
looking at Justice Jonas, thething that keeps popping up is
this English catechism in 1548that Thomas Cranmer had
translated.
That Thomas Cramner hadtranslated, and the first
(35:48):
English Protestant catechismprinted in England is a
translation from Justice Jonas'stranslation of Andreas
Osiander's German sermons, basedoff Luther's small catechism.
It's a Lutheran real presence,small catechism printed in
England.
And I'm like, and what's funabout the English Reformation is
it's in English and so I canread it and I can understand it.
And so I began to really bevery curious about, well, what's
(36:08):
going on in England and justthe.
So Thomas Cranmer and searchinginto his impact.
And boy, you talk about someonethat we all are influenced by
but we don't really know.
I mean, he has really writtenour English liturgical language
and I don't think we reallyunderstand or appreciate what
he's done in the beautiful workthat he did bringing the gospel
(36:34):
into the English language withhis Book of Common Prayer and
with his work that he did.
And you talk about dangeroustimes, being a Protestant under
Henry VIII and his reign, kindof wild times.
So he's been really fascinatingand I don't know if this is to
me, there's a lot of.
(36:55):
Well, you got another musicalsix where you talk about the
wives of Henry VIII and thedrama and the stories of England
, tudor England.
I mean there is, I think, aspace there where you have a lot
of people interested in thistime period and a lot of people
who are interested in AnneBoleyn and Catherine Parr.
But these are women who arealso theologians and I'd like to
(37:16):
be able to come into atheological space, into this
historical space, and sayCatherine Parr has some really
beautiful things to say aboutthe Protestant faith and
justification by faith alone.
How cool is that that we canread that in English from these
voices from the 16th century.
So there's so much fun stuff.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
There's so much fun stuff, sarah.
You're dropping so muchknowledge here.
It's blowing my mind, don't?
Speaker 2 (37:40):
you love Jonas, though.
I mean, isn't that the coolestthing?
Speaker 1 (37:43):
Well, so that's the question why didn't he listen to
Luther and do the smallcatechism?
Have you found that out yet?
We don't know.
Is that a mystery?
Speaker 2 (37:50):
Well, so no, it's a mystery.
I mean, I think that this is myheadcanon maybe we'll say I
think Jonas is always known asvery faithful, very loyal.
He's like Luther's best friend.
Luther's going for his problems.
Katie writes to Jonas come over, calm Luther down, he's such
(38:13):
the companion, he's such thesupport.
Why doesn't he do this?
I think his partner had someproblems, that he was having
some problems with the law, andso I think that was maybe not a
good match.
I also think what's the resultof it and did he have an impact
(38:34):
of it?
Him not writing it means whatLuther wrote, the small
catechism.
I think that that was probablyone of the most important
documents of the 16th centuryand if Jonas would have written
it would have been as impactful.
So I don't know the why, but Ikind of like the why of Luther
needed to write that smallcatechism and him not doing it
kind of made Luther do that.
(38:55):
So thank you, jonas for not.
I'm rose-colored.
I am not very objective when itcomes to Jonas, because I love
the results of his life and hispassion for his family and his
wives.
He married.
He has three different wives atdifferent times.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
Not.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
Henry VIII kind of stuff.
But he was passionate about thegospel and he was always
shining the light on the gospelnot himself, and I think it's
interesting.
I don't think I could tell youwith.
My heart tells me that he knewLuther needs to write this
catechism because this is goingto be an important document.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
Yeah, oh, that's my gut, I know evidence for that.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
but I like it Like.
I feel like that would my dream.
My dream for the PhD is I wantto bring these primary sources
to life on video.
I want to bring some of thesestories in an accessible, short
but historically accurate way.
So I have this dream of youknow, catherine Parr writes this
letter Lamentations of a Sinner.
(39:58):
She writes this publisheddocument.
It's an autobiography of hercoming to a Protestant faith
where she's no longer feelinglost in the maze, biography of
her coming to a Protestant faithwhere she's no longer feeling
lost in the maze.
Well, I mean, how cool would itbe to recreate this experience
of her writing it and seeing herhandwriting and hearing her
voice and seeing her walkthrough a maze and putting it
(40:19):
into a form where it's like aprimary document that I could
show to my 14 year olds and belike, wow, the gospel just
really unlocked things forCatherine Park, like I think
that's so, that's so cool.
Speaker 1 (40:29):
You know it's, it's spectacular.
So, while I'm thinking about it, if you want to make a proposal
, we have a studio connected toour church, red Barrel Studios.
We're working on our first fulllength film and if you want to,
do a short film kind of concept.
Our crew is very interested inthat.
There's a lot that needs to beshared here.
What I think about Luther'sstory is I'm hearing you kind of
(40:52):
he's very human, he's wrestling.
We know he had anfechtungen.
You know I didn't say that wrong, the kind of dark night of the
soul he lived with kind of aweightiness.
And Luther had to have friendslike Justice Jonas and I think
(41:13):
he knew sometimes when leadersare in, I think he knew like
something with the Holy Spiritwas shifting something in time
and space here on planet earthand it was a heavy shift right
and there's no way he's able torun as long right as much as he
does apart from the support ofof friends who probably I'm
(41:35):
thinking my, my creative mindgoes.
Luther liked to drink beer orsomething, so he's probably with
justice Jonas some night, justlike I got a lot going on right
now and justice goes, I know,but but I know you asked me that
to to write that.
But I a lot going on right nowand justice goes, I know, but
but I know you asked me that towrite that, but I this is going
to be really, really pivotal,not just for the church but for
families in the church.
So it's gotta be you, brother,I'm sorry, and it's going to be
(41:57):
great.
I'm here to support and championthat work, but but let's go.
I kind of think that's how itmay have may have sounded, but
my but my big question we don'thear much about the English
Reformation.
I mean, those of us withLutheran roots are Anglican
brothers and sisters.
We're pretty tight liturgically, historically, so connect kind
of German Lutheranism to 16thcentury Anglican movement and it
(42:23):
appears as if a lot in Germanyand in England they're running
down the same tracks in many,many respects.
And obviously Kramer, hiscommon book of prayer, they were
super.
We as American Lutherans, Idon't think spend enough time
thinking about the impact of theEnglish Reformation.
(42:45):
So I love that you're goingdown that path.
I think most of the time it'sfrom Germany to then maybe
Scandinavia, our roots, but wemay skip our English roots.
So say a little bit more thereto help the hearer.
Let's just break it downbasically how did the English
Reformation and the GermanReformation intersect?
Just at a five-minute overview,take us to school, sarah.
Speaker 2 (43:09):
It's a controversial kind of a take, because it is
really interesting to see yourown bias as an American Lutheran
.
This summer I got to spend timeas the only American Lutheran
in a group of 10 other scholarsand to realize whoa I'm really.
We have a really differenttakes on things, and what we,
(43:30):
what we see around us, is, ispretty different than you know
an Anglican priest from Englandor from New Zealand, or a
Lutheran from India or aLutheran from Germany, and so it
was so cool to haveconversations with my student
fellows, my fellow students inGermany, and the big thing, I
(43:53):
think, is this got people heatedthe idea of the Reformation as
a singular capital R, that wehave actually sister
reformations.
We have many reformations.
The English Reformation ishappening at the same time, the
German Reformation.
It's all kind of coming out ofhumanism, coming out of the
(44:14):
medieval piety.
We have so many thingshappening at the same time, and
so I would say it's quiteactually complex and not quite
linked together, but happeningside by side.
A key thing that is interestingto look at, where we can like
actually look at this kind ofgathering together, is after
(44:35):
Luther's death, during theAugsburg interim, where England
becomes like a safe haven, whileEdward VI is king, and he's a
Protestant king but he's a boyand so but during this time it
was not safe to be Protestant onthe continent.
And so you have this gatheringand I'm not sure if this will be
my dissertation, but it is anarea I'm very interested in 1548
(44:57):
, 49, what's happening inEngland as Lutherans, as Justice
Jonas' son is going anddelivering the loci to Thomas
Cramner, as we have, you know,martin Bucer and Peter Martyr,
vermigli, and all of these guyskind of gathering in England,
and then we have, you know, justall this kind of gathering and
(45:17):
this time of kind of safe harborin England.
I think that's something wedon't probably really think
about very much.
I think that's an interestingplace and there was I mean, we
see it today too there was adesire for an ecumenical move to
unite, but we just couldn'tunite over Lord's Supper, and so
that you know, that becomessomething difficult.
(45:40):
I mean, you look at going back,you know, marburg Colloquy,
there was so much agreementthere but there was just not the
real presence agreement, andthat's a really big deal, and I
think it is a big deal.
So how do we navigate this?
It's complex, but I thinkwhat's a five minute rundown.
(46:00):
I would say that there therewasn't a ton.
Luther was not super accepted inEngland by the.
You know you've got Henry VIIIwriting probably someone else
writing his defense of the popeand getting the defender of the
(46:20):
faith title which is still today, and he's, he's, he starts the
Church of England, but he's athis heart a Catholic believer.
But Cramner is kind of puttingforth these Protestant moves of
faith alone, justification byfaith alone, and I think that
(46:41):
what's helpful is to see theconnections, not necessarily in
that moment of the 16th century,but really going back and
seeing the effect of Augustine'swritings on both of these
people.
Augustine has this hugeinfluence for both Luther and
Cranmer and so you can see thiswith I finally I've never had a
(47:05):
class on Augustine and I finallywas able to do some.
I got to read his exposition onthe Psalms and, boy, boy, it's
nice, cause I've tried readingof city of God a couple of times
and you're just like, ooh, it'sjust like really, it's really,
it's really.
You're like, wow, amazing, butlike the Psalms when he's
preaching, oh, soothing, and hisoh soothing and his rhetoric of
(47:27):
drawing his listener into thisloving relationship with God and
the focus on truth, love andbeauty and this kind of
beautiful connection to thetransformation that happens when
we walk with Christ.
Oh, that's, that's prettypowerful stuff.
That's pretty powerful stuff.
So, um, I think that is.
(47:48):
I'm trying to learn.
The more you learn, the more.
The more I other, the moreyou're just like I get smaller
and smaller.
As more I learn more and themore comfortable I'm saying oh,
I really don't know much.
I really couldn't say muchabout this topic, even though I
could probably talk for fourhours without notes, but I
really know, I'm just at thesurface of it.
You know like there's so muchto research.
(48:10):
So, to understand theReformation, I think it's really
important to go back tounderstand the medieval era, to
understand the church fathersand to understand the impact and
the value that they weresharing in their writings as
well.
Speaker 1 (48:26):
That's really good.
That's really good.
That's really good.
I haven't read.
I got to read that Augustine'stake on the Psalms.
Well, luther's-.
Speaker 2 (48:34):
Oh, they're very nice .
Speaker 1 (48:35):
Luther's first translation first work was like
working with the Psalms that hadto be influenced by Augustine
right.
Speaker 2 (48:41):
That's right, and so I just did a paper on this.
So one of my students was likeMrs Crayon, what was your paper
about?
And I kind of started givingher the outline of the paper and
then I realized, oh, I shouldhave just told her it was about
Psalm 124.
Like I should have just saidthat.
But Luther when I mean it wasone of the first moves he does,
he's teaching the Psalms, butthen he wants to put the Psalms
(49:03):
into the vernacular, becausewhat do the church fathers do
with the Psalms?
This word of God becomes ourword.
So much of the exegetical movesis to try to understand
scripture in context and notmake it about yourself.
But, like with the Psalms,they're written for us to speak
these words to God and these arethe words of Christ.
(49:26):
And so we have this kind ofbeautiful connection to Christ
in the Psalms where we, withChrist, are speaking these words
.
Luther's like guys, guys, guys,spallatin, jonas, everybody.
We got to write the Psalms inGerman to music, so that the
children, 10 year olds andyounger, so that they can have
these words in their hearts intheir daily work, not just in
(49:48):
worship, but that it's a dailyexperiencing and walking in the
word of God, and so so he sendsthis call out and he asks Jonas
to do Psalm 124.
So I was like let's see whatAugustine and Ambrose say about
Psalm 124.
And this is kind of beautiful.
All of them, all of them seethe Psalms as this powerful way
(50:11):
of a Christian to speak God'sword and that it belongs to them
.
And as they sing it, and theysing it in community, we're
joined with the people of Godand with Christ, because the
Psalms are Christ and oh, it'sfun.
It's fun stuff.
Speaker 1 (50:27):
Sarah, man, I could talk to you for a long time.
I'm trying to make a decisionLike what are the last couple of
topics?
We can just hang in the last 10minutes or so.
But, man, faith is so blessedto have you, you're a gift to
the LCMS and your mind is soalive.
And what I love, listener, is Iget to hang out with a lot of
different leaders at a lot ofdifferent levels.
(50:49):
What I hear in you is remarkablecuriosity and, at the same time
, remarkable humility.
If I could snap my fingers andsay that quality needs to be in
every academic, every leader,every pastor.
It's curiosity, it's humility.
The more you know about a smalllittle thing, that means
there's a lot you don't knowabout other small little things
(51:10):
in other disciplines.
There's no way, or thereshouldn't be a way, that any of
us could say you know what, I'man expert in this and that means
you should listen to me.
No, no, no, that means you'reignorant about a lot of other
things.
Let's just hang there Like themore you know, the more you
realize you don't know.
Sarah, talk about that.
Speaker 2 (51:29):
Well, in the last two years I've really with my
colleagues.
We have, you know, weeklyprofessional development and we
have been really struggling withthis idea of how do we make it
safe and an expectation that ourstudents are curious.
We want our students to becurious about God's word and
asking questions, and so foryears I've been doing these
(51:51):
videos with my students.
We have weekly memory versesand I want them to.
I'm trying to train them tonever take a verse and run with
it that we always want to read averse in context.
So Mondays, tuesdays, aftersong day, they do their video
where I'm teaching them becauseI want individualized
instruction.
I'm teaching them to read theirmemory verse in context and
understand it.
And for years, at the end ofthe video I asked do you have
(52:13):
any questions?
And most of the kids would sayno and we were like, okay, this
is unacceptable.
We need to create anenvironment where the kids feel
safe and actually empowered tobe questioning scripture,
because that is where learninghappens.
And if we're just forcing stuffon them and saying any
questions, no, that's good,that's actually the worst thing.
(52:36):
And so really spending timecreating opportunities for the
students to feel safe to askquestions and grappling with
those questions and saying, oh,I've never thought of that, and
sharing that with one another.
That's what we should do, and Ilove the kids are like is it
okay to ask questions?
Well, look at Jesus.
Almost everything he says he'sasking questions as if he
(52:59):
doesn't know, like he knows.
But it's part of how we haveconversations with one another.
It's part of how we haveconversations with one another,
and so I love to be curious.
And what does that look like,asking questions?
And so we're just really tryingto figure that out, and there's
some really good resources outthere.
But to empower and demonstrateso we were talking earlier about
(53:23):
parents and what can they do?
Be curious, ask them questions,engage in the behavior that you
want to see in them.
And uh, yeah, it's, and it'swith that humility, right, um,
because I've I've had studentsask questions that you're like,
oh, that's, it's pretty bold.
Take on God there.
Uh, kiddo, but let's go back toour uh, you know our loving God
(53:46):
, who has created us and caresfor us.
You're kind of painting thisother picture.
Where's your evidence?
Let's explore this.
But to be able and transparentand vulnerable, to be in a space
where we're going to open thefloor to any questions and that
they know that they're safe toask these questions and that
(54:07):
they know that they're safe toask these questions.
I think that's important, andbeing curious can open up into
other realms.
Something that happened duringCOVID that I think was really a
huge impact on me is we hostinternational students, and so
during COVID, lockdown times andthen after this kind of huge
(54:29):
surge in Asian hate happeningand being a mom to a kid who's
experiencing this, I was like ohmy gosh, and so being curious
about asking my students andhaving conversations, and so we
took a little break from thecurriculum to talk about racism
and and hatred and it it wasvery eyeopening to see how many
(54:51):
of our students are experiencingracism and I'm like, because I
don't experience, you know, Idon't experience that and so to
to really take time and to andto explore that, that was really
huge for my students to gothrough that and especially for
me to be like, well, I don't,just because I don't understand
it doesn't mean I can't learnfrom my students, and so turning
(55:13):
that around and taking sometime to understand what they
were facing I mean some of ourkids walking home from school
having people rolling down theirwindows and yelling at them.
Even my Hawaiian students arebeing treated as if they go back
to China or something horriblelike this.
And so, as we are learning andbeing curious about these topics
(55:36):
, it gives us a chance to reallybe learning about how we can
really love our neighbor.
And that looks like neighborswho don't look like us and my
students, I think, saw how I amwilling to learn, and I think
that through that lesson andthrough that experience, one of
my students asked me if I wouldbe willing to be their faculty
(55:59):
advisor for our Black StudentAssociation, and I'm like I do
not have time, I have no sparetime and I don't think I am the
right person for that, but Ihear your call and I will do
this and I can learn.
And so you know, that's hugewhen we can demonstrate that we
(56:21):
are willing to learn from othersdifferent than ourselves and to
try to understand where they'recoming from.
So that's something reallyexciting.
That's happening is that we areseeing this new kind of how
does it look to care for ourneighbor?
It means when our neighbor'shurting, we listen to them and
we try to figure out how we canhelp them.
I think that's really powerfulstuff.
Speaker 1 (56:40):
Ah, love this.
I love this so much.
All right, last questions.
You and I are both longtimeworking Cordia grads.
I'm Seward, You're Wisconsin,and we care about the Missouri
Synod, Every group of people,every family, every organization
(57:04):
, church, school and synod.
We all have things, gifts andgaps in areas we need to we're
thriving and areas where we needto grow.
So let's just talk.
What makes you, first off,proud to be a part of the
Lutheran Church Missouri Synod?
Sarah?
Speaker 2 (57:13):
I love our mission.
You know we have the gospel.
We have this clear, beautifulgift to give In class at the end
of first semester.
We get to watch the Lion, theWitch and the Wardrobe and one
of my favorite things is whenLucy is going through the
battlefield and giving thishealing gift that she got from
Father Christmas.
(57:33):
That's what I feel like.
I feel like I get empowered togo into my community and share
this good gospel gift and wehave there's no in the Lutheran
Church.
I feel like we have a veryclear gospel gift to give to
people.
Let's go Like what are wewaiting for?
Let's go and share this goodnews with our community.
I'm so excited about my church.
You know we've got a Mandarinministry at our church.
(57:56):
We've got a Hispanic ministry.
We've got an Oromo congregation.
We've got such wonderfulopportunities around us, our
congregations, to go into ourcommunities and to really see
the church.
You go back to Luther.
A fun little German thing withLuther is, as he is developing,
how he starts writing about thechurch.
There's a German word forchurch that's more like the
(58:17):
building of the church and theGerman word for community and he
really sees the church as acommunity and this welcoming
body of believers, and so that'sour let's, that's our strength,
I think, is this gospel giftthat we get to share in our
community and with our neighbors.
Let's, let's go.
We we have.
We have what people need.
We live in a cancel culturewhere you make one misstep and
(58:39):
there's no forgiveness.
We have forgiveness, we havelove, we have restoration
through Christ.
If we can swallow our pride andbe humble to love our neighbors
, let's go.
It's exciting.
I wish we had more teachers.
We at Faith, we are growing, wehave a waiting list, we need
(59:02):
more teachers at our school andwe can't get them, and so we're
starting to train our ownteachers and trying to get
teachers to come to our schools,and it's horrifying to see our
opportunity shrink when we aredesperate in the field.
In this battlefield of sharingthe gospel, we need more people
to come and share the gospelwith us.
(59:22):
So if you can empower a studentto think about going into
teaching, becoming a pastor,just be that person.
It's usually a person in thelife of a student who says, hey,
you know what.
You have such a clear way ofspeaking about the gospel.
Have you ever thought aboutbeing a pastor?
Have you ever thought aboutbeing a teacher.
You would be an amazing teacherand it would be so awesome to
(59:44):
work alongside you.
So, yeah, I think we have sucha good message.
Let's just go and share it.
Let's go get out there, amen.
Speaker 1 (59:54):
Amen Love that.
Sarah, this has been so muchfun.
You're a gift to me and to thebody of Christ and I can't wait
to connect with you.
Are you going to be a bestpractices conference coming up?
Speaker 2 (01:00:04):
I wish I, because of my PhD, I missed two weeks of
school in January.
So I, I, I don't.
I don't think I'll be able todo best practice I've never been
, but I hear it looks like sucha good time.
It will be awesome.
Speaker 1 (01:00:18):
It is, it is.
But if people want to connectwith you and and stay yeah, just
stay connected with you on yourlearning journey, how can they
do so, Sarah?
Speaker 2 (01:00:26):
I share a lot of stuff on my Instagram as a
public Instagram and I like toshare.
You might see a lot of timelapses and people my husband's
like who cares about time lapses, and I'm like, listen, when I'm
filming a time lapse I'm not onmy phone, so it's kind of like
my study hack of when I need tolike actually buckle down and
study for an hour, I'm puttingmy phone on a time lapse.
(01:00:47):
I'm like, oh, I'll throw it onInstagram.
I wish my dream.
I don't need to have a PhD tohave to be a YouTuber.
But, like, I love to createcontent on YouTube and so
there's a.
There's a fun video on there,if you're a Dr Kolb fan of, of
how I got into the Wittenbergcenter on there and basically
how his book really pushed meinto the PhD program, because
(01:01:10):
the reason I'm at ConcordiaSeminary is because I wanted to
work with Dr Kolb and I got thatwish and I'm so happy and so,
yeah, youtube, instagram, thoseare good ways to connect with me
.
Speaker 1 (01:01:19):
Just your name on YouTube.
You got a YouTube channel, yourname.
Speaker 2 (01:01:22):
Yes, yep, it's Sarah Crowder.
I think my Instagram is Sarah MCrowder.
But also, if you want to hearme speak, 1517 has me doing
speaking events every so often,so I'll be speaking at their.
Here we Still Stand in Octoberin San Diego on the bondage of
the will, and so that'll be.
Really, I love those.
(01:01:42):
Man, if you have not been to a1517 event, those are good times
, those are good times.
And if your son's looking forapologetics podcasts, man,
they've got podcasts everywhere.
But yeah, 1517, I have articlesand some of my talks are up on
there.
So if you want to see mespeaking, you can check out
their stuff.
But yeah, I'm having fun in LasVegas.
Speaker 1 (01:02:04):
Yeah, we're grateful for you.
This is the Tim Allman Podcast.
Please like, subscribe, comment.
Wherever it is you take thesehelpful, jesus-centered
conversations in, and maycuriosity and humility be what
wins the day, and when youcouple those two characteristics
, life is a divine adventure.
As you follow after Jesus, yourleader and your Lord, it's a
(01:02:26):
good day.
Go make it a great day.
Thanks, sarah, wonderful work.
Speaker 2 (01:02:30):
Thank you.
What misunderstandings do older
generations have aboutGeneration Z today?
Sarah?
Speaker 2 (00:05):
They're ready to make change.
They want to be valued and notthought down upon the heartfelt
emotions that they're pouringinto the writing for an
assignment.
I was so impressed that thesekids are super talented and I
think that we need to beempowering them and seeing them
as part of the body of Christand not as a burden or rolling
(00:28):
our eyes or, you know, somethinglike we can't understand.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Welcome to the Tim Allman Podcast.
I pray.
The joy of Jesus is yourstrength.
Today, as I get to hang outwith a sister in Christ that
I've admired from afar, heardamazing things about her and her
leadership at Faith LutheranHigh School in Las Vegas.
Today I get to hang out withSarah Crowder.
Let me tell you a little bitabout Sarah.
She spends her time pouringinto 14, 15-year-old freshman
(00:59):
high school students.
What an amazing call.
She's a graduate from Concordia,wisconsin, in 2000,.
An MA in theology with a focuson Reformation Studies from CUI,
concordia University, irvine,in May of 2020.
In the summer of 2024, she wasone of 10 students this is
really cool Student fellows atthe Wittenberg Center for
Reformation Studies, where shetraveled to Germany, england, to
(01:20):
immerse herself in thehistorical and theological
significance of the German andEnglish Reformation.
She just told me she got tospend three weeks with Reverend
Dr Bob Kolb.
Shout out to Bob Kolb, he'sbeen on our podcast before.
Such an amazing leader, man offaith.
And currently Sarah is in thePhD program at Concordia
Seminary in St Louis, withafocus on Reformation history.
(01:42):
She's the recipient of the RodRosenblatt Philosophy, theology
and Apologetics Fellowship.
That's so cool.
She's been married to herhusband, jason, for over 20
years and she's a loving motherto Katie and Brendan.
How are you doing, sarah?
Thanks for hanging with metoday.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Oh, we're doing good in Sin City.
It's a great place to doministry, so welcome Amen.
It's such a great morning.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Bring the gospel of Jesus Christ, turning sinners
into saints for sure.
So let's get into your highschool ministry.
What is your approach?
You were just telling me youhave a lot of students who don't
know about Jesus.
Right, our Lutheran schools.
The best parts of our Lutheranschools is that they're mission
oriented.
We want to bring as many kidsas possible onto our campuses so
(02:24):
we can tell them about Jesus.
So what is your approach toteaching the Bible to high
school students at FaithLutheran?
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Well, I just want all of my students to know,
wherever they're coming from,that they belong in this
classroom.
I like to share with them thatthey have been brought into the
space, and so I want thisphysical space to be super
comforting and calming, and sowe've done a lot of things with
the design of the room to makesure that when people walk in,
there's this sense of peace andcalm.
(02:51):
And I want everyone to know,especially my new students.
We have a growing school with agrowing population in Las Vegas
, where there's not a lot ofprivate school opportunities, so
a lot of people are drawn toour school just because it's an
alternative.
They don't really care or knowabout the Christian aspect, and
so I really want my students andtheir parents to know you
(03:13):
belong here.
We have built this schoolbecause we want to share the
gospel with you, and so youmight come from a different
religious background, you mighthave no family history of having
any faith.
God has brought you here into myspace and we are going to have
a great year together exploringGod's word.
And the thing I really invitethem to is I like they all get a
(03:34):
physical Bible, and it's forsome of them, it's the only
physical book that they have intheir backpack.
And I like them to think abouthow we're going to approach
God's word.
And I like them to think abouthow we're going to approach
God's word and I got this frommy pastor where a lot of us want
(03:55):
to stand over God's word andkind of point down and say I
want God's word to say this or Iwant you know, kind of putting
ourselves above God's word andholding it above us and
recognizing we have a loving Godwho cares about you, who
created you, that you have valueand purpose and that he has a
plan for you.
So what would life look like ifwe approach God's word this way
?
And so that's kind of theposture that we try to take in
(04:19):
the classroom is let's explorethis idea that God loves you so
much that he sent his son to diefor you because of his great
love.
And so in my room there's alife-size kind of glowing cross,
because I think if anyone'sgoing to walk into my room
they're going to know this isabout Jesus.
So we get to introduce kids toJesus and it's the best time we
have so much fun.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Oh, that's so amazing .
So talk about your space.
I've been into hospitalityrecently on a invite.
Building an invite.
Culture, I believe, is the nextquestion that we're going to
talk about God's doing somethingextraordinary in the lives of
people who have gone after theidols of our age.
We're idol making factories ashuman beings right, and they
(05:01):
eventually become unsatisfactoryand then we get to give them
the reason for the hope that wehave in the God made flesh and
the person and work of Jesus.
So how do you create a spacewhere people can hear get a
little bit more granular, if youwould how do you make kids feel
safe to receive the gospel?
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Well, for my room we actually got a special grant and
so my room was designed.
I want to say it was abouteight years ago now where we
received a special grant toimagine what a classroom of not
even the future of what todaylooks like versus industrial
revolution, and so my teachingpartner at that time was Dr Will
Stelzer, and we tried to createa space that would be super
(05:42):
inclusive for group work, sothat the tables and chairs are
very comfortable and movable, soeverything's on wheels and can
have blocks, so when the kidscome in it's a very comfortable
space.
I also I always joke with thekids I don't do TikTok or
anything, but we had read somestudies that talked about color,
color use in education and wehave a back wall where there's a
(06:04):
light panel, and so I said Iwas tick, tock, cool before
those kids do all the you knowbedroom lights with it.
We, we installed this, like youknow, kind of high techie color
wall in the back to help withtransitions, and so I'll do that
.
Sometimes, when we're trying tochange, shift the tone of the
room, I can say, okay, now we'regoing to do quiet time, let's
do like a blue color, and thenfor the next 20 minutes we're
going to just kind of be chill.
(06:25):
Or sometimes we'll play areally intense game where we're
I like to use this a lot ofgames in class and we use this
game kit game where we'refighting aliens, and so I turn
the lights green and you know wegot to have fun with that, and
(06:46):
so so there's the color, thecolor thing, and then really
it's the messaging.
Whenever I'm having a openhouse event, I love to sign up
for the, whenever I can to meetthose new families, and I always
write on the whiteboard youbelong here.
Because I think, for whatLutheran schools can offer is a
place where you get to belong aspart of this community, and
really that's so important, um,in the, in this, in this ever
(07:06):
changing world.
Uh to to say to each of thesechildren you belong here, you
are uh welcome here, and youmight be feeling nervous, uh,
but you're the person I'mconcerned about the most and so
I'm going to make sure that youfeel comfortable, that you feel
safe and that, um, no matterwhat happens, we're going to
learn together.
It's going to be a goodexperience.
(07:26):
So that's kind of.
Those are some of the theapproaches.
Something fun Also my sister'sa illustrator and I asked her to
make a two big drawings of themap of Israel and the map of the
middle East, but with no, no,no words on it, and then we
installed glass over the top ofit so it becomes like a
whiteboard, so we can kind ofdraw different maps and erase it
(07:47):
.
You know, use that.
And so it's a lovely space toteach and it's.
I love the location of wherewe're doing ministry and I love
teaching high school.
A lot of people are wonderingyou know, with my PhD, am I
looking to go out of high school?
The PhD, really, for me, isreally a I looking to go out of
high school.
The PhD really, for me, isreally a passion project to
unlock some of the Reformationstories that aren't in English
(08:10):
yet, but my heart is really withteaching 14-year-olds.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
So, yeah, Well, it sounds like it's a calling and
you don't you know, it is acalling.
Yeah, we have some about thecall in our Lutheran church.
Praise me to God.
You've been called to pour intoyoung people, so let's go a
little bit deeper in terms ofwhat your year looks like,
because I think there's a lot of.
There could be parents whomaybe, you know, sometimes they
(08:37):
may feel guilty.
I don't know that I've doneenough to teach my kids the
truths of scripture.
Jesus, fortunately, doesn'twork through guilt or shame.
He works through love andinvitation, and so maybe maybe,
as you talk about this, therecould be one or two things that
a parent or a pastor who couldbe a parent could take and say
this is the right.
Next thing, as my kids aremoving from kind of the 12, 13,
(08:57):
14, the mind is changing.
You know they're hittingpuberty.
All those different types ofemotions are flooding.
So what is your approach atthat unique, I'd say pivotal
stage 14, 15 years old that youtake in sharing the greatest
story ever connected to the Wordof God?
Speaker 2 (09:12):
It's such a fun year for these kids.
It's horrible actually for them.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
It's horrible, you remember.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
But for me we get student aid sometimes and I had
a girl who I didn't ever have asa freshman but I had her as a
student aid and she came in andshe was like first quarter.
She was like, how do you dothis?
They're so weird and terribleand awful and I was like I know,
but just wait, because we getto witness their kind of
entering into it, like just waituntil we get to the last unit.
(09:42):
You are going to see themtransform and it's so cool and
it was really cool to kind oftake her along this journey.
I got to say I'm really my dadwas in ministry and he would
talk about how his own life haddifferent stages of ministry.
So when you're young you havethis kind of brotherhood,
fellowship with the students andI got to experience that when I
(10:02):
was first out of college.
But then you're in this kind ofmore mature stage and I'm at
the stage where I feel it's somuch more comfortable because
I'm older than most of mystudents' parents and actually
I'm even teaching some of myformer students' children, which
makes me feel extremely old.
But what that means is I cancome in, especially when I'm
(10:25):
communicating with parents and Ilove to communicate with
parents.
Teacher-parent relationshipscan be tricky and I don't think
everyone, I wouldn't recommendthis for everyone, but for me,
really investing time into myparent communications to offer
encouragement for them ratherthan just, like you know, just
(10:45):
content, I think has been areally beneficial thing.
So what would I say to parentsis just, sometimes it's really
helpful to find someone who'sgone through it so that you can
know that you're not alone,because it can feel very
isolating when your teenager is,you know, kind of going through
all these developmental phasesand you don't know what to do
(11:06):
and how to have theseconversations.
And so what I try to do as ateacher and this is I have a
kind of unique scenario, I think, but whenever I have an open
house and the teachers come,it's like usually the first
month, or I'm sorry, the parentscome.
They are so curious about myclass because many of them have
never taken a theology class,and so I'll get comments like I
(11:29):
wish I could be in your class,or I wish I had a teacher who
taught things like you teach,because they didn't have that
opportunity when they were kids,and this really stuck in my
brain and so I really startedleaning into how can I, in a
loving, non-burdensome way,teach my parents what we're
doing in class, and so I'vemoved.
(11:51):
A lot of this came out of COVIDas well, where I really wanted
my students to have a cleargospel proclamation and not
through a mask, like I waswearing a mask in a classroom,
but I wanted to make sure mycontent was clear.
I wanted to make sure mycontent was clear, so I made
sure to do high qualityrecordings of my content so that
my students would get to hearthe clear gospel without any
kind of barriers.
And I was like maybe what Ineed to start doing is
(12:13):
communicating that with theparents as well, and so, through
YouTube and through my emails,trying to share with them what
their students are learning inclass and teaching them also
ideas of what they could betalking about or encouraging
them to take their kids tochurch.
A lot of our families aren'tattending church at all.
That's not a priority orexperience that they've had in
(12:35):
their life.
So that's an invitation that Iget to extend out, and I just
sent an email this week.
You know where I like to be theperson.
If you're at our school and youdon't know what to do.
You can contact me and I'llhelp figure something out.
I want to be that helpfulperson.
So, I think, find find ahelpful person that you can go
(12:56):
to and and just be patient andlistening to those kids, because
they are going through a lot ofhard times and I I've noticed
they're missing a lot of thenormal maturity mark points and
so we're seeing some differentthings.
So if you're feeling like thisis confusing, I think we're all
right now a little confused anduh, but but we're not alone.
(13:17):
We're in a community and, uh,you know, take advantage of the
communities that you're in.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
I love that.
So as you teach scripture, doyou teach.
They have their first Bible.
I'm really just curious aboutthis from an evangelical
perspective.
Do you teach the Bible as oneunited story or yeah, how is it
that you because we're allstoried beings, right, we
communicate and we put ourselvesinto story rather than just
(13:46):
doctrinal statements et cetera,right?
So tell the story to give evenparents and other pastors a way
in which you articulate it tothat developmental stage of
young people.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Well, really, what I say my classroom is about is the
same thing that the Bible isabout.
It's all about Jesus, and so weuse a metaphor, an image of a
bow tie, and this idea of all ofthe New Testament and all of
history is rooted in Christ, andI like to kind of break down
the Cairo symbol to the studentsand help them, give them a
(14:20):
little preview of what we'regoing to learn in our origins
and reliability of scripture,about.
You know the biblical languagesand what these symbols mean,
and what does it mean?
That Jesus is Christ and thatall of scripture is tied into
that work of salvation thatJesus did.
So, really, when we're lookingat the Bible, I like to describe
it to them as well, somethingthat they're probably not super
familiar with.
But this is a library of booksthat is collected together that
(14:42):
gives us so many different ways,because our brains are
different from each other andthere's different ways that we
can learn about the person andwork of Jesus, and so how do I
approach it when they're firstcoming in?
It's all about Jesus and themetaphor we use to talk about
scripture, and we're starting anew unit where we're going to be
practicing reading in context,something we do every week with
(15:05):
our memory verses, but the mainpicture is that it's all about
Jesus, it's all about his workand what that means in your
relationship for you.
That work on the cross isactually something for you today
and that means you get to be ina right relationship with him
because of what he's done andwhat a blessing that is.
How will that change how werespond to our neighbors in love
(15:26):
?
And so we're always thinkingabout my goal as a teacher and I
think I actually said this outloud I want you to stop looking
at yourself and worrying aboutyourself.
Let's look to the cross andlook to our neighbor and look at
how we can love and serve oneanother the way that Jesus loved
us.
And so the first this is kindof fun for parents, and I did a
(15:51):
talk on this last June Somethingthat kids today really respond
positively in an authentic way.
Not in a Facebook post and kidsaren't on Facebook, so don't
even try that but they reallyrespond to prayer.
Even my non, even my militantatheists really love when I pray
(16:12):
for them.
They think that's neat.
And so if you are in acongregation or you're a parent
and you're wanting to build upyour, your students' faith life,
be in prayer with them, and sowe start with the Lord's Prayer,
we start with Jesus and westart with the Lord's Prayer and
we pray in class, and we prayfor each other and something.
(16:33):
Kids are very hesitant to speakup in class and sometimes needs
are somewhat personal, and so Itry to develop an interesting,
safe, online relationship withmy students where every week,
through assignments, I'msoliciting prayer requests from
them, either a prayer request ofsomething they need, a
(16:54):
supplication, or something thatthey're grateful for, so we can
always everybody can embracethat gratitude and all of our
gratitude comes from God.
So the practice of prayer issomething really valuable for
kids today and that's a reallyeasy connection point for us.
But to make it personal forthem and to know what their
concerns are, they are very muchappreciative of when people are
(17:17):
praying for them and knowingtheir needs.
I think that's something thatthey really, really appreciate
in our classroom space.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Hey, that's so good.
I love how personal you arewith your students and how you
center it all on Jesus.
Shout out to Dr Mittendorf atConcordia, irvine, right With
the bow tie kind of image.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Creation to recreation, the center point in
between is crucified and risenand reigning one, Jesus that's
right between his crucified andrisen and reigning one Jesus,
and the sending that he has nowby the power of his spirit
through us, through the body ofChrist, through the baptized, to
bring the love and light ofJesus in anticipation of Jesus
returning.
I love your passion, I love howpersonal you are.
Prayer is very, very personaland I just can already sense the
(18:02):
rapport and care.
I got a freshman daughter.
My youngest is a freshmandaughter.
I'm like I wish she could learnfrom soon to be Dr Sarah
Crowder.
So, yeah, super, super cool,let's get into, let's get a
little higher level.
On Generation Z, I believe Godis doing something incredible
with that generation.
My son I was just returningfrom a basketball game in Payson
(18:22):
that's about an hour and a halfaway from where we live and so
I got the joy of driving himback from that game yesterday
and he wanted to talk and listento podcasts on apologetics.
It was so I couldn't believe it.
Actually I was like this isawesome.
He goes.
Have you heard of so-and-so?
He knows all these differentapologists in and outside of the
(18:44):
Missouri Senate.
It was such a fun time.
His brain is moving in abeautiful direction.
He's a sophomore, he's 16.
In a beautiful direction towardwhat is this thing called
Christianity, and not just howdo I defend it, but how does it
take shape in me and shape how Ilive every single day.
I feel like within him andwithin his generation, there's a
(19:06):
real spiritual awakening that'staking place right now.
So what misunderstandings doolder generations have about
Generation Z today?
Sarah?
Speaker 2 (19:16):
I'm not sure I could speak to specific, like data,
but I think it could be general,just older people to younger
people.
They're ready to make change.
They want to be valued and notthought down upon.
Something that has reallyinspired me the last two weeks
is looking at some of mystudents' writing samples and
(19:37):
with the advent of AI and thiskind of there's a lot of fear.
I think rightfully so.
But there's also a lot ofskepticism with.
You know how do you assess astudent's work if you're not
sure they made it?
But we have a system at ourschool where they're writing on
a locked down computer, sothere's no AI involved and the
(19:59):
care that they're putting intotheir crafting of their words
and the heartfelt emotions thatthey're pouring into the writing
for an assignment.
I was like so impressed thatthese kids are super talented
and I think that we need to beempowering them and seeing them
as part of the body of Christand not as a burden or rolling
our eyes or, you know, somethinglike we can't understand what
(20:23):
they're going through.
They've had the things theyface.
I never had to face the thingsthat they go through on a daily
basis or the thoughts that theyhave.
You talk about a safe place.
You know it's not.
They don't go to safe schools.
They go and they're thinkingI'm scared to put my phone up in
(20:44):
the caddy because if somethinghappens how will I text my mom.
You know what I'm saying.
So we live in a totally scaryworld.
I think similar to you, watchthe old videos of the kids doing
the drills for the nuclear.
You know the nuclear thing.
We're doing drills all the timefor active shooters.
Imagine what that's like.
We didn't grow up with that.
(21:04):
We didn't grow up with that andthankfully, but I would say
there's a lot of room forcompassion, for us to reach out
to these students, to encouragethem, to pray for them and to
empower them to step intoleadership and help them as
they're making choices aboutwhere they're going to be going
in their future, and bealongside them and not looking
(21:25):
down on them.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Love your heart.
It's so good.
Anxious Generation.
Have you read the AnxiousGeneration?
Speaker 2 (21:35):
I haven't read it I have so much limited time on
extra reading but it'sdefinitely on the list and I've
listened to some podcasts aboutthat and I don't doubt it.
I don't doubt it and so I thinkit's so powerful.
So in my own home I've got a13-year-old who's Chinese, but
(21:56):
from New Zealand, so we hostinternational students and I
have my son who's 17.
And so the anxiety in the homeconnected to cell phone use.
It's one thing to say you're onyour cell phone all the time,
but really I got to point myfinger at myself I'm on the cell
, I'm on my phone more than thekids are in lots of ways.
And so demonstrating that notfinger pointing, but actually
(22:19):
demonstrating you know what theworld's kind of crazy right now,
at seven o'clock, let's putthese phones.
Let's all just put our phonesaway, like let's just take a
break and be together, or, youknow, having family meals
together and listening andtalking to each other.
It's not something that theyneed, it's something we need
right, the anxious generation.
(22:39):
I think we are also in thatspace of caring for these kids
who have such really highanxiety and real depression.
Something that we just did inclass we do an adversity unit
where we kind of trace.
I want them to get a sense ofthe Old Testament scriptures and
I also like to we spend sometime in Job.
(23:00):
We do like five chaptersthere's just so many chapters in
that very dense book and wetalk about grief and how we can
think about grief and connectionto the cross, and when we're
thinking about anxiety anddepression and the mental health
(23:21):
crisis that this generation'sgoing through, to not see that
as something like made up orimaginary, but to actually know
that mental health is actualphysical health, I think is
something that maybe we are notaware of.
I feel like the kids are awareof this more than I and my
generation are aware of, and Idon't think sometimes we
(23:45):
recognize that mental health andsevere anxiety and depression
has a very real presence intheir physical life.
It's not just something that'sin a head or something like this
, and so to respect that, whatthey're going through, and to
try to understand that, I thinkit would be really helpful in
loving this generation.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
Isn't it cool, so good.
Isn't it cool how Jesus comesto us.
This is deep Lutheran theology.
Right, we don't draw near toGod.
He and the person and work ofJesus is drawn near to us.
And there are certain storiesin scripture, I think you bring
up grief.
You know the story of Lazarusand Jesus weeping with Mary and
(24:27):
Martha.
You know sitting with them intheir pain and suffering,
offering the hope of theresurrection, and then Jesus
restoring Peter.
There's a kindness and acompassion to Christ that is
overwhelming.
And then, as you teach them whoJesus is and how much he loves
them, he's the reigning one.
I've been on a kick recently ofthinking where is Jesus right
(24:51):
now?
Well, he's reigning over allthings and by the power of his
spirit he makes you thecrucified and risen.
And reigning Jesus by the powerof the spirit makes you his
dwelling place.
So he's nearer to you than youcan possibly imagine.
He's carrying you, he loves you, he smiles over you and he
cries.
He cries with you.
Yeah, anything more to sayabout the kindness of Jesus?
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Two things I think it's important to get to the
blood of Jesus like the actualsacrifice and, um, the.
The other thing I think isimportant when you talk about
anxiety and soothing is thepower of music.
And so, um, when I I taught at,faith was my first call, and
then we moved to Missouri andthen I came back, and when I
(25:36):
came back, my, my good friendand mentor, bob Matthews, said
Sarah, never stopped singingwith the kids, cause the Holy
Spirit works through music toimprint God's love into their
hearts and God's word and hispromise.
And so I make a habit ofMondays and Tuesdays doing song
day, and yesterday, as we wereconcluding our adversity unit,
(25:56):
they took the quiz and Iactually moved Songae to the end
of class and I just said, kindof what you were just saying of
hey, we all have our adversitiesand there's some adversities in
this room that you've nevereven shared with anyone.
But Jesus knows this and hecomes down to us.
We don't have a far off Godwho's observing our grief and
adversity from afar, but Jesushas joined up with us.
(26:19):
And then what do I get to do?
We get to sing this dust by KipFox, where it talks about his
mercy rains and his blood coversover all of this dust and
connecting it to Job's, you know, lament and it's beautiful, you
know.
And I had a.
I had a person man.
I wish I could do a podcastwithout getting teary-eyed, but
(26:40):
it's fun to talk about what Godis doing.
I had someone come and serve myclassroom last Friday and he
said that he went to collegewith one of my students I taught
and let's see, this would havebeen like eight years ago and he
still remembers the grieflesson with this dust song and I
had kind of forgotten that Ihad done this dust with the.
(27:00):
But because that sticks and ifwe can use, you know, we.
I just took a class with DrOlowski on the Psalms and the
power of singing God's word toimprint it onto our hearts so
that that actually can bringhealing and comfort and soothing
.
God's given these gifts and weget to share them.
That's awesome.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Human beings are hardwired for story and for
experiences that shape us.
And sometimes as Lutherans,because we don't want to be
enthusiasts, et cetera.
It's about God's work, not usascending by the power of our
passionate praise or anythinglike that.
Sometimes we kind of walk rightpast the power of an experience
(27:45):
with the crucified and risenJesus as His people sing His
praises, in whatever style, aslong as it's good music
connected to the scriptures, letthat song be heard.
That's amazing that someonewould come back and they
remember One.
They remember how much you lovethem.
They may not remember all thelessons, but some, some lessons
(28:07):
the Holy Spirit at the righttime brings to mind, especially
a grief story, because in thisworld you will have trouble.
So when these kids go out inthe world, where is God?
In the midst of my suffering,he's right there with you.
He cares for you more than youcan possibly imagine Anything
more to say to the power ofexperience there, sarah.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
Well, I just was having a meeting about AI stuff
and you know I subscribed toBernard Bull's sub stack and
talking about how do youcommunicate in an unchatbotable
kind of a way, and so how can weshare the gospel in a powerful
way in this AI world, where Icould just, you know, I could
(28:44):
and I've been, you know,throwing some of my lessons into
AI and saying how can I improvethis, how can I make it better?
But to make it impactful, ithas to be an experience that
I've lived, where I'm sharing myexperience with the students
and so I can teach them about,well, some of the questions we
just had, our Lutheran SchoolsWeek and our baptism chapel, and
(29:05):
a lot of students wonder couldI be baptized twice or what if
someone wants to be baptizedtwice?
And I can explain that to them.
I could use scripture and I do,but I can also tell them the
story about the time when my dad, you know, kind of walked away
from his faith for a time andcame back and wanted to be
rebaptized and how he struggledthrough this with his pastor and
(29:26):
his realization of how baptismis God's work.
This is not something that I'mdoing and that God's promise
that he made to me when I was ababy is true, because it's God's
work, not mine.
And so when we the experience iscrucial for today because
that's where reality is whenwe're dealing with all of these
(29:49):
different ways of communication,if it is true from my lived
experience and I'm beingtransparent and open with my
students that's real powerfulexperience that they can draw
from, and so I'm really kind oftrying to lean into.
As I'm teaching my students, Iwant to show and demonstrate how
(30:11):
the Christian life looks.
It should look joyful, itshould look difficult because
we're doing uncomfortable thingsand we're going into
uncomfortable spaces becausethat's where Jesus calls us to,
and so you've got to kind oftake the kids with you when you
go and have these experiencesand sharing the experience and I
think I was talking to one ofour other teachers who's
(30:31):
developing a leadership classand he wants to take them on a
mission trip so they can getsome leadership experience and
have that mission opportunityand I think in education, with
this changing world, theexperience of travel and
learning from other cultures andbuilding relationships, that's
where the huge value is going tobe going forward, and it's
always been there, but it's likeeven more clear now that that's
(30:54):
where we need to be.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
Yes, amen.
So grateful for you.
This is so much fun.
So let's get into theReformation.
You said, yeah, let's justpivot to the Reformation.
You said there are someunearthed stories of the
Reformation that you'reexploring.
Give me a couple, three of yourfavorite of these unearthed
stories that the average Jesusfollower and Lutheran who comes
(31:18):
from that Lutheran foundation,that Lutheran heritage, would
really, really resonate with.
I'm curious.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
Well, so my poor husband you know, he, he, I, you
know I, I'm so happy to teachtheology and I'm so happy being
a teacher.
And back in 2017, my husbandwas like you really need to get
your master's, you know it's payscale, Like you got to move
them.
And I was like I don't to getyour master's, you know it's pay
scale, like you got to movethem.
And I was like I don't want todo anything for a fricking pay
(31:44):
scale.
That sounds awful.
But then I saw that ConcordiaIrvine had a reformation history
cohort and I had that.
This is when I was like really,I still am really into Hamilton
.
Are you a musical?
Speaker 1 (31:56):
guy oh my gosh, I was like really seen it a couple
times.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
Oh my gosh, I was like really into Hamilton and I
had this thought I actually wasin a trailer, like in a camper,
with my friend my best friendfrom growing up, and I was like
what if I could learn enoughabout the Reformation that I
would know what all thesefigures sound like and who
they're fighting against and howthey're harmonizing or speaking
?
You know what kind of musicwould I sign to Luther or
(32:20):
Erasmus or you know the emperorLike?
How would they interact witheach other in a way that I could
demonstrate that in a new media?
So I'm not like a I'm not a PhDstudent who's going into the
academic world because I like towrite papers good grief or like
I don't really want to teachcollege at all, but I do love
(32:42):
these stories and the one thatgot me.
Well, the thing that reallystarted this whole journey is I
had Dr Scott Keith, who's theexecutive director for the 1517.
He was my creeds andconfessions teacher and I was
writing a paper on a catechism.
I'm like, oh, I'm a teacher, Ishould do the catechism.
And it all started with thisfootnote I think it's in the
Book of Concord, or thehistorical context of the Book
(33:03):
of Concord the introduction tothe catechism, where there's
because Dr Keith just was likeyou always have to chase the
footnotes, that's what your gameis.
You're always looking at thefootnotes, that's where all the
good stuff is.
And so I was trying to takethis advice.
(33:35):
And there's this littlefootnote, and I should ask Dr
Kolb if he wrote this footnote.
But basically saying thatLuther wrote the small catechism
, even though he had toldJustice Jonas and this other guy
to write the catechism, waskind of like why would this guy
not do what Martin Luther asked?
Who is he?
I've never heard of him and howcool of a name is Justice Jonas
.
And so then I was like I'mgoing to explore this a little
bit and find out that JusticeJonas I think is a fascinating
(33:56):
lens into the story of theReformation, the impact of
humanism, his experience being acanon lawyer, his experience at
Erfurt, his relationship withErasmus.
But the thing that I love themost and I will never stop
talking about this story, I willalways talk about this story.
When he is hired to come fromErfurt to Wittenberg to teach,
(34:19):
the elector calls him to teachcanon law, which is, you know,
basically the laws of the church.
He's not so excited about thisand Luther and Melanchthon, are
so excited to get another reallytalented translator he's really
known as being a goodtranslator and so they both kind
of write to the elector likeplease, can he teach Bible or
teach you know something, notcanon law?
(34:39):
And the lector would not change.
And so Jonas, out of his ownpocket, hire someone to teach
canon law.
And he comes to Wittenberg andteaches the Bible and I'm like,
oh, okay, okay, this is good,this is what it's.
It's.
It's it's that you know.
And so the thing that's funny is, trying to read about Jonas,
(35:01):
almost all of his primary stuffis still only in Latin and
German.
And so I'm going around askingpeople, I'm trying to read this
paper, but it's in Latin.
What do I do?
Or where can I find an Englishtranslation of this?
And everyone's like that'squestions a PhD student would
ask.
And I'm like, well, I teachhigh school, so I don't need a
PhD, but couldn't stop.
(35:22):
But my thesis got me reallyinterested into the English
Reformation because as I'm doingthis catechism research and
looking at Justice Jonas, thething that keeps popping up is
this English catechism in 1548that Thomas Cranmer had
translated.
That Thomas Cramner hadtranslated, and the first
(35:48):
English Protestant catechismprinted in England is a
translation from Justice Jonas'stranslation of Andreas
Osiander's German sermons, basedoff Luther's small catechism.
It's a Lutheran real presence,small catechism printed in
England.
And I'm like, and what's funabout the English Reformation is
it's in English and so I canread it and I can understand it.
And so I began to really bevery curious about, well, what's
(36:08):
going on in England and justthe.
So Thomas Cranmer and searchinginto his impact.
And boy, you talk about someonethat we all are influenced by
but we don't really know.
I mean, he has really writtenour English liturgical language
and I don't think we reallyunderstand or appreciate what
he's done in the beautiful workthat he did bringing the gospel
(36:34):
into the English language withhis Book of Common Prayer and
with his work that he did.
And you talk about dangeroustimes, being a Protestant under
Henry VIII and his reign, kindof wild times.
So he's been really fascinatingand I don't know if this is to
me, there's a lot of.
(36:55):
Well, you got another musicalsix where you talk about the
wives of Henry VIII and thedrama and the stories of England
, tudor England.
I mean there is, I think, aspace there where you have a lot
of people interested in thistime period and a lot of people
who are interested in AnneBoleyn and Catherine Parr.
But these are women who arealso theologians and I'd like to
(37:16):
be able to come into atheological space, into this
historical space, and sayCatherine Parr has some really
beautiful things to say aboutthe Protestant faith and
justification by faith alone.
How cool is that that we canread that in English from these
voices from the 16th century.
So there's so much fun stuff.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
There's so much fun stuff, sarah.
You're dropping so muchknowledge here.
It's blowing my mind, don't?
Speaker 2 (37:40):
you love Jonas, though.
I mean, isn't that the coolestthing?
Speaker 1 (37:43):
Well, so that's the question why didn't he listen to
Luther and do the smallcatechism?
Have you found that out yet?
We don't know.
Is that a mystery?
Speaker 2 (37:50):
Well, so no, it's a mystery.
I mean, I think that this is myheadcanon maybe we'll say I
think Jonas is always known asvery faithful, very loyal.
He's like Luther's best friend.
Luther's going for his problems.
Katie writes to Jonas come over, calm Luther down, he's such
(38:13):
the companion, he's such thesupport.
Why doesn't he do this?
I think his partner had someproblems, that he was having
some problems with the law, andso I think that was maybe not a
good match.
I also think what's the resultof it and did he have an impact
(38:34):
of it?
Him not writing it means whatLuther wrote, the small
catechism.
I think that that was probablyone of the most important
documents of the 16th centuryand if Jonas would have written
it would have been as impactful.
So I don't know the why, but Ikind of like the why of Luther
needed to write that smallcatechism and him not doing it
kind of made Luther do that.
(38:55):
So thank you, jonas for not.
I'm rose-colored.
I am not very objective when itcomes to Jonas, because I love
the results of his life and hispassion for his family and his
wives.
He married.
He has three different wives atdifferent times.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
Not.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
Henry VIII kind of stuff.
But he was passionate about thegospel and he was always
shining the light on the gospelnot himself, and I think it's
interesting.
I don't think I could tell youwith.
My heart tells me that he knewLuther needs to write this
catechism because this is goingto be an important document.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
Yeah, oh, that's my gut, I know evidence for that.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
but I like it Like.
I feel like that would my dream.
My dream for the PhD is I wantto bring these primary sources
to life on video.
I want to bring some of thesestories in an accessible, short
but historically accurate way.
So I have this dream of youknow, catherine Parr writes this
letter Lamentations of a Sinner.
(39:58):
She writes this publisheddocument.
It's an autobiography of hercoming to a Protestant faith
where she's no longer feelinglost in the maze, biography of
her coming to a Protestant faithwhere she's no longer feeling
lost in the maze.
Well, I mean, how cool would itbe to recreate this experience
of her writing it and seeing herhandwriting and hearing her
voice and seeing her walkthrough a maze and putting it
(40:19):
into a form where it's like aprimary document that I could
show to my 14 year olds and belike, wow, the gospel just
really unlocked things forCatherine Park, like I think
that's so, that's so cool.
Speaker 1 (40:29):
You know it's, it's spectacular.
So, while I'm thinking about it, if you want to make a proposal
, we have a studio connected toour church, red Barrel Studios.
We're working on our first fulllength film and if you want to,
do a short film kind of concept.
Our crew is very interested inthat.
There's a lot that needs to beshared here.
What I think about Luther'sstory is I'm hearing you kind of
(40:52):
he's very human, he's wrestling.
We know he had anfechtungen.
You know I didn't say that wrong, the kind of dark night of the
soul he lived with kind of aweightiness.
And Luther had to have friendslike Justice Jonas and I think
(41:13):
he knew sometimes when leadersare in, I think he knew like
something with the Holy Spiritwas shifting something in time
and space here on planet earthand it was a heavy shift right
and there's no way he's able torun as long right as much as he
does apart from the support ofof friends who probably I'm
(41:35):
thinking my, my creative mindgoes.
Luther liked to drink beer orsomething, so he's probably with
justice Jonas some night, justlike I got a lot going on right
now and justice goes, I know,but but I know you asked me that
to to write that.
But I a lot going on right nowand justice goes, I know, but
but I know you asked me that towrite that, but I this is going
to be really, really pivotal,not just for the church but for
families in the church.
So it's gotta be you, brother,I'm sorry, and it's going to be
(41:57):
great.
I'm here to support and championthat work, but but let's go.
I kind of think that's how itmay have may have sounded, but
my but my big question we don'thear much about the English
Reformation.
I mean, those of us withLutheran roots are Anglican
brothers and sisters.
We're pretty tight liturgically, historically, so connect kind
of German Lutheranism to 16thcentury Anglican movement and it
(42:23):
appears as if a lot in Germanyand in England they're running
down the same tracks in many,many respects.
And obviously Kramer, hiscommon book of prayer, they were
super.
We as American Lutherans, Idon't think spend enough time
thinking about the impact of theEnglish Reformation.
(42:45):
So I love that you're goingdown that path.
I think most of the time it'sfrom Germany to then maybe
Scandinavia, our roots, but wemay skip our English roots.
So say a little bit more thereto help the hearer.
Let's just break it downbasically how did the English
Reformation and the GermanReformation intersect?
Just at a five-minute overview,take us to school, sarah.
Speaker 2 (43:09):
It's a controversial kind of a take, because it is
really interesting to see yourown bias as an American Lutheran
.
This summer I got to spend timeas the only American Lutheran
in a group of 10 other scholarsand to realize whoa I'm really.
We have a really differenttakes on things, and what we,
(43:30):
what we see around us, is, ispretty different than you know
an Anglican priest from Englandor from New Zealand, or a
Lutheran from India or aLutheran from Germany, and so it
was so cool to haveconversations with my student
fellows, my fellow students inGermany, and the big thing, I
(43:53):
think, is this got people heatedthe idea of the Reformation as
a singular capital R, that wehave actually sister
reformations.
We have many reformations.
The English Reformation ishappening at the same time, the
German Reformation.
It's all kind of coming out ofhumanism, coming out of the
(44:14):
medieval piety.
We have so many thingshappening at the same time, and
so I would say it's quiteactually complex and not quite
linked together, but happeningside by side.
A key thing that is interestingto look at, where we can like
actually look at this kind ofgathering together, is after
(44:35):
Luther's death, during theAugsburg interim, where England
becomes like a safe haven, whileEdward VI is king, and he's a
Protestant king but he's a boyand so but during this time it
was not safe to be Protestant onthe continent.
And so you have this gatheringand I'm not sure if this will be
my dissertation, but it is anarea I'm very interested in 1548
(44:57):
, 49, what's happening inEngland as Lutherans, as Justice
Jonas' son is going anddelivering the loci to Thomas
Cramner, as we have, you know,martin Bucer and Peter Martyr,
vermigli, and all of these guyskind of gathering in England,
and then we have, you know, justall this kind of gathering and
(45:17):
this time of kind of safe harborin England.
I think that's something wedon't probably really think
about very much.
I think that's an interestingplace and there was I mean, we
see it today too there was adesire for an ecumenical move to
unite, but we just couldn'tunite over Lord's Supper, and so
that you know, that becomessomething difficult.
(45:40):
I mean, you look at going back,you know, marburg Colloquy,
there was so much agreementthere but there was just not the
real presence agreement, andthat's a really big deal, and I
think it is a big deal.
So how do we navigate this?
It's complex, but I thinkwhat's a five minute rundown.
(46:00):
I would say that there therewasn't a ton.
Luther was not super accepted inEngland by the.
You know you've got Henry VIIIwriting probably someone else
writing his defense of the popeand getting the defender of the
(46:20):
faith title which is still today, and he's, he's, he starts the
Church of England, but he's athis heart a Catholic believer.
But Cramner is kind of puttingforth these Protestant moves of
faith alone, justification byfaith alone, and I think that
(46:41):
what's helpful is to see theconnections, not necessarily in
that moment of the 16th century,but really going back and
seeing the effect of Augustine'swritings on both of these
people.
Augustine has this hugeinfluence for both Luther and
Cranmer and so you can see thiswith I finally I've never had a
(47:05):
class on Augustine and I finallywas able to do some.
I got to read his exposition onthe Psalms and, boy, boy, it's
nice, cause I've tried readingof city of God a couple of times
and you're just like, ooh, it'sjust like really, it's really,
it's really.
You're like, wow, amazing, butlike the Psalms when he's
preaching, oh, soothing, and hisoh soothing and his rhetoric of
(47:27):
drawing his listener into thisloving relationship with God and
the focus on truth, love andbeauty and this kind of
beautiful connection to thetransformation that happens when
we walk with Christ.
Oh, that's, that's prettypowerful stuff.
That's pretty powerful stuff.
So, um, I think that is.
(47:48):
I'm trying to learn.
The more you learn, the more.
The more I other, the moreyou're just like I get smaller
and smaller.
As more I learn more and themore comfortable I'm saying oh,
I really don't know much.
I really couldn't say muchabout this topic, even though I
could probably talk for fourhours without notes, but I
really know, I'm just at thesurface of it.
You know like there's so muchto research.
(48:10):
So, to understand theReformation, I think it's really
important to go back tounderstand the medieval era, to
understand the church fathersand to understand the impact and
the value that they weresharing in their writings as
well.
Speaker 1 (48:26):
That's really good.
That's really good.
That's really good.
I haven't read.
I got to read that Augustine'stake on the Psalms.
Well, luther's-.
Speaker 2 (48:34):
Oh, they're very nice .
Speaker 1 (48:35):
Luther's first translation first work was like
working with the Psalms that hadto be influenced by Augustine
right.
Speaker 2 (48:41):
That's right, and so I just did a paper on this.
So one of my students was likeMrs Crayon, what was your paper
about?
And I kind of started givingher the outline of the paper and
then I realized, oh, I shouldhave just told her it was about
Psalm 124.
Like I should have just saidthat.
But Luther when I mean it wasone of the first moves he does,
he's teaching the Psalms, butthen he wants to put the Psalms
(49:03):
into the vernacular, becausewhat do the church fathers do
with the Psalms?
This word of God becomes ourword.
So much of the exegetical movesis to try to understand
scripture in context and notmake it about yourself.
But, like with the Psalms,they're written for us to speak
these words to God and these arethe words of Christ.
(49:26):
And so we have this kind ofbeautiful connection to Christ
in the Psalms where we, withChrist, are speaking these words
.
Luther's like guys, guys, guys,spallatin, jonas, everybody.
We got to write the Psalms inGerman to music, so that the
children, 10 year olds andyounger, so that they can have
these words in their hearts intheir daily work, not just in
(49:48):
worship, but that it's a dailyexperiencing and walking in the
word of God, and so so he sendsthis call out and he asks Jonas
to do Psalm 124.
So I was like let's see whatAugustine and Ambrose say about
Psalm 124.
And this is kind of beautiful.
All of them, all of them seethe Psalms as this powerful way
(50:11):
of a Christian to speak God'sword and that it belongs to them
.
And as they sing it, and theysing it in community, we're
joined with the people of Godand with Christ, because the
Psalms are Christ and oh, it'sfun.
It's fun stuff.
Speaker 1 (50:27):
Sarah, man, I could talk to you for a long time.
I'm trying to make a decisionLike what are the last couple of
topics?
We can just hang in the last 10minutes or so.
But, man, faith is so blessedto have you, you're a gift to
the LCMS and your mind is soalive.
And what I love, listener, is Iget to hang out with a lot of
different leaders at a lot ofdifferent levels.
(50:49):
What I hear in you is remarkablecuriosity and, at the same time
, remarkable humility.
If I could snap my fingers andsay that quality needs to be in
every academic, every leader,every pastor.
It's curiosity, it's humility.
The more you know about a smalllittle thing, that means
there's a lot you don't knowabout other small little things
(51:10):
in other disciplines.
There's no way, or thereshouldn't be a way, that any of
us could say you know what, I'man expert in this and that means
you should listen to me.
No, no, no, that means you'reignorant about a lot of other
things.
Let's just hang there Like themore you know, the more you
realize you don't know.
Sarah, talk about that.
Speaker 2 (51:29):
Well, in the last two years I've really with my
colleagues.
We have, you know, weeklyprofessional development and we
have been really struggling withthis idea of how do we make it
safe and an expectation that ourstudents are curious.
We want our students to becurious about God's word and
asking questions, and so foryears I've been doing these
(51:51):
videos with my students.
We have weekly memory versesand I want them to.
I'm trying to train them tonever take a verse and run with
it that we always want to read averse in context.
So Mondays, tuesdays, aftersong day, they do their video
where I'm teaching them becauseI want individualized
instruction.
I'm teaching them to read theirmemory verse in context and
understand it.
And for years, at the end ofthe video I asked do you have
(52:13):
any questions?
And most of the kids would sayno and we were like, okay, this
is unacceptable.
We need to create anenvironment where the kids feel
safe and actually empowered tobe questioning scripture,
because that is where learninghappens.
And if we're just forcing stuffon them and saying any
questions, no, that's good,that's actually the worst thing.
(52:36):
And so really spending timecreating opportunities for the
students to feel safe to askquestions and grappling with
those questions and saying, oh,I've never thought of that, and
sharing that with one another.
That's what we should do, and Ilove the kids are like is it
okay to ask questions?
Well, look at Jesus.
Almost everything he says he'sasking questions as if he
(52:59):
doesn't know, like he knows.
But it's part of how we haveconversations with one another.
It's part of how we haveconversations with one another,
and so I love to be curious.
And what does that look like,asking questions?
And so we're just really tryingto figure that out, and there's
some really good resources outthere.
But to empower and demonstrateso we were talking earlier about
(53:23):
parents and what can they do?
Be curious, ask them questions,engage in the behavior that you
want to see in them.
And uh, yeah, it's, and it'swith that humility, right, um,
because I've I've had studentsask questions that you're like,
oh, that's, it's pretty bold.
Take on God there.
Uh, kiddo, but let's go back toour uh, you know our loving God
(53:46):
, who has created us and caresfor us.
You're kind of painting thisother picture.
Where's your evidence?
Let's explore this.
But to be able and transparentand vulnerable, to be in a space
where we're going to open thefloor to any questions and that
they know that they're safe toask these questions and that
(54:07):
they know that they're safe toask these questions.
I think that's important, andbeing curious can open up into
other realms.
Something that happened duringCOVID that I think was really a
huge impact on me is we hostinternational students, and so
during COVID, lockdown times andthen after this kind of huge
(54:29):
surge in Asian hate happeningand being a mom to a kid who's
experiencing this, I was like ohmy gosh, and so being curious
about asking my students andhaving conversations, and so we
took a little break from thecurriculum to talk about racism
and and hatred and it it wasvery eyeopening to see how many
(54:51):
of our students are experiencingracism and I'm like, because I
don't experience, you know, Idon't experience that and so to
to really take time and to andto explore that, that was really
huge for my students to gothrough that and especially for
me to be like, well, I don't,just because I don't understand
it doesn't mean I can't learnfrom my students, and so turning
(55:13):
that around and taking sometime to understand what they
were facing I mean some of ourkids walking home from school
having people rolling down theirwindows and yelling at them.
Even my Hawaiian students arebeing treated as if they go back
to China or something horriblelike this.
And so, as we are learning andbeing curious about these topics
(55:36):
, it gives us a chance to reallybe learning about how we can
really love our neighbor.
And that looks like neighborswho don't look like us and my
students, I think, saw how I amwilling to learn, and I think
that through that lesson andthrough that experience, one of
my students asked me if I wouldbe willing to be their faculty
(55:59):
advisor for our Black StudentAssociation, and I'm like I do
not have time, I have no sparetime and I don't think I am the
right person for that, but Ihear your call and I will do
this and I can learn.
And so you know, that's hugewhen we can demonstrate that we
(56:21):
are willing to learn from othersdifferent than ourselves and to
try to understand where they'recoming from.
So that's something reallyexciting.
That's happening is that we areseeing this new kind of how
does it look to care for ourneighbor?
It means when our neighbor'shurting, we listen to them and
we try to figure out how we canhelp them.
I think that's really powerfulstuff.
Speaker 1 (56:40):
Ah, love this.
I love this so much.
All right, last questions.
You and I are both longtimeworking Cordia grads.
I'm Seward, You're Wisconsin,and we care about the Missouri
Synod, Every group of people,every family, every organization
(57:04):
, church, school and synod.
We all have things, gifts andgaps in areas we need to we're
thriving and areas where we needto grow.
So let's just talk.
What makes you, first off,proud to be a part of the
Lutheran Church Missouri Synod?
Sarah?
Speaker 2 (57:13):
I love our mission.
You know we have the gospel.
We have this clear, beautifulgift to give In class at the end
of first semester.
We get to watch the Lion, theWitch and the Wardrobe and one
of my favorite things is whenLucy is going through the
battlefield and giving thishealing gift that she got from
Father Christmas.
(57:33):
That's what I feel like.
I feel like I get empowered togo into my community and share
this good gospel gift and wehave there's no in the Lutheran
Church.
I feel like we have a veryclear gospel gift to give to
people.
Let's go Like what are wewaiting for?
Let's go and share this goodnews with our community.
I'm so excited about my church.
You know we've got a Mandarinministry at our church.
(57:56):
We've got a Hispanic ministry.
We've got an Oromo congregation.
We've got such wonderfulopportunities around us, our
congregations, to go into ourcommunities and to really see
the church.
You go back to Luther.
A fun little German thing withLuther is, as he is developing,
how he starts writing about thechurch.
There's a German word forchurch that's more like the
(58:17):
building of the church and theGerman word for community and he
really sees the church as acommunity and this welcoming
body of believers, and so that'sour let's, that's our strength,
I think, is this gospel giftthat we get to share in our
community and with our neighbors.
Let's, let's go.
We we have.
We have what people need.
We live in a cancel culturewhere you make one misstep and
(58:39):
there's no forgiveness.
We have forgiveness, we havelove, we have restoration
through Christ.
If we can swallow our pride andbe humble to love our neighbors
, let's go.
It's exciting.
I wish we had more teachers.
We at Faith, we are growing, wehave a waiting list, we need
(59:02):
more teachers at our school andwe can't get them, and so we're
starting to train our ownteachers and trying to get
teachers to come to our schools,and it's horrifying to see our
opportunity shrink when we aredesperate in the field.
In this battlefield of sharingthe gospel, we need more people
to come and share the gospelwith us.
(59:22):
So if you can empower a studentto think about going into
teaching, becoming a pastor,just be that person.
It's usually a person in thelife of a student who says, hey,
you know what.
You have such a clear way ofspeaking about the gospel.
Have you ever thought aboutbeing a pastor?
Have you ever thought aboutbeing a teacher.
You would be an amazing teacherand it would be so awesome to
(59:44):
work alongside you.
So, yeah, I think we have sucha good message.
Let's just go and share it.
Let's go get out there, amen.
Speaker 1 (59:54):
Amen Love that.
Sarah, this has been so muchfun.
You're a gift to me and to thebody of Christ and I can't wait
to connect with you.
Are you going to be a bestpractices conference coming up?
Speaker 2 (01:00:04):
I wish I, because of my PhD, I missed two weeks of
school in January.
So I, I, I don't.
I don't think I'll be able todo best practice I've never been
, but I hear it looks like sucha good time.
It will be awesome.
Speaker 1 (01:00:18):
It is, it is.
But if people want to connectwith you and and stay yeah, just
stay connected with you on yourlearning journey, how can they
do so, Sarah?
Speaker 2 (01:00:26):
I share a lot of stuff on my Instagram as a
public Instagram and I like toshare.
You might see a lot of timelapses and people my husband's
like who cares about time lapses, and I'm like, listen, when I'm
filming a time lapse I'm not onmy phone, so it's kind of like
my study hack of when I need tolike actually buckle down and
study for an hour, I'm puttingmy phone on a time lapse.
(01:00:47):
I'm like, oh, I'll throw it onInstagram.
I wish my dream.
I don't need to have a PhD tohave to be a YouTuber.
But, like, I love to createcontent on YouTube and so
there's a.
There's a fun video on there,if you're a Dr Kolb fan of, of
how I got into the Wittenbergcenter on there and basically
how his book really pushed meinto the PhD program, because
(01:01:10):
the reason I'm at ConcordiaSeminary is because I wanted to
work with Dr Kolb and I got thatwish and I'm so happy and so,
yeah, youtube, instagram, thoseare good ways to connect with me
.
Speaker 1 (01:01:19):
Just your name on YouTube.
You got a YouTube channel, yourname.
Speaker 2 (01:01:22):
Yes, yep, it's Sarah Crowder.
I think my Instagram is Sarah MCrowder.
But also, if you want to hearme speak, 1517 has me doing
speaking events every so often,so I'll be speaking at their.
Here we Still Stand in Octoberin San Diego on the bondage of
the will, and so that'll be.
Really, I love those.
(01:01:42):
Man, if you have not been to a1517 event, those are good times
, those are good times.
And if your son's looking forapologetics podcasts, man,
they've got podcasts everywhere.
But yeah, 1517, I have articlesand some of my talks are up on
there.
So if you want to see mespeaking, you can check out
their stuff.
But yeah, I'm having fun in LasVegas.
Speaker 1 (01:02:04):
Yeah, we're grateful for you.
This is the Tim Allman Podcast.
Please like, subscribe, comment.
Wherever it is you take thesehelpful, jesus-centered
conversations in, and maycuriosity and humility be what
wins the day, and when youcouple those two characteristics
, life is a divine adventure.
As you follow after Jesus, yourleader and your Lord, it's a
(01:02:26):
good day.
Go make it a great day.
Thanks, sarah, wonderful work.
Speaker 2 (01:02:30):
Thank you.
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