April 23, 2025 • 29 mins
OVERVIEW
Interval training works, but there are ways to get stronger, ride faster, and win races without interval training. There are even aspects of performance that are better suited to no-interval training blocks. In some cases, the structured intensity with planned recovery breaks hinders an athlete's flexibility to use power and fitness spontaneously. Coach Adam Pulford breaks away from the dogma of interval training to show you how to improve your fitness and performance with a period of reduced structure.
TOPICS COVERED
- The 5 reasons we do intervals in training
- 3 Ways to train without intervals
- Sample workout 1: Hard Climbing Day
- Sample workout 2: Kilojoules per hour
- Sample workout 3: Normalized Power Game
- 3 Ways to use Group Rides for productive training
- Monitoring your fitness when you're not doing intervals
- Subjective feedback: "real feel" vs. "should feel"
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HOST
Adam Pulford has been a CTS Coach for nearly two decades and holds a B.S. in Exercise Physiology. He's participated in and coached hundreds of athletes for endurance events all around the world.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
From the team at CTS.
This is the Time Crunch Cyclistpodcast, our show dedicated to
answering your trainingquestions and providing
actionable advice to help youimprove your performance even if
you're strapped for time.
I'm your host, coach AdamPulford, and I'm one of the over
50 professional coaches whomake up the team at CTS.
In each episode, I draw on ourteam's collective knowledge,
(00:30):
other coaches and experts in thefield to provide you with the
practical ways to get the mostout of your training and
ultimately become the bestcyclist that you can be.
Now on to our show.
Now on to our show.
I was talking to one of myjuniors the other day and they
(00:51):
asked me do I really have to domy intervals today?
I replied nope, and they werelike wait, what?
So again, I said no, you don'tneed to do your intervals today,
or any day really.
They paused for a second andthen they asked then why do you
(01:15):
make me do so many of them?
Now, that's a great question,so so great, in fact, that I
decided to, of course, make apodcast out of it.
I'm your host, coach AdamPulford, and today we'll be
exploring why you should dointervals, if at all.
(01:35):
But first you may be askingyourself what did I tell this
junior athlete in thisconversation?
I can't recall entirely, but itwent something like this I told
them you can ride on vibes, youcan slay every day.
So I told them you can, you canride on vibes, you can slay
every day, shred till you'redead and not stress about a
training program.
That's fine and presumably whatsome people do, but there's
some problems with that, becausewhen you get fit or fast, you
(01:59):
may not know why and you may notbe able to replicate that when
you need to if you're justriding on vibes.
Why, and you may not be able toreplicate that when you need to
if you're just riding on vibes.
Additionally, I tend to seeathletes just overdo it and cook
themselves into overtrainingbecause riding more is generally
how they got fit or fast.
In that process along the way,they typically don't go easy or
(02:20):
rest until it's too late.
However, with some of myathletes and for the majority of
the year for myself, I am notdoing intervals in my training
program, and that is fine.
You just need to know whatlevers to pull on, what dials to
turn and what to look at inyour data to make sure that
you're improving if that's yourgoal, and you need to have a
(02:42):
system in place so you don'tovercook yourself.
So, to start, let's begin byexploring why we do intervals in
the first place.
Well, it all depends on yourgoals, what you have time for
and what you're trying toaccomplish in your training.
It's as simple as that.
I break it down historically.
I've broken it down into fourmajor reasons.
(03:04):
When developing this podcast, Icame up with a fifth.
So here are the four, maybe fivereasons why we do intervals.
First one you do more work inless time.
Okay, so instead of writing fortwo or three hours, we can do
intervals and simply do morework.
That's kilojoules, which we'lltalk about here in a minute.
That's time in zone um, aerobicwork.
(03:27):
However, you want to quantifywork Okay.
Second reason you want toimprove some aspect of your
energy system or your metabolismOkay.
So I want to improve mythreshold.
I want to increase my threshold, for example, you do threshold
training.
Another reason why you dointervals.
Third reason is you want toincrease your durability.
(03:48):
Okay, we've talked aboutdurability on this podcast,
sometimes at length.
It's kind of a new buzzy thing.
We've always known it's been athing, but now we can actually
measure a bit.
Measure it and specificallythat durability is talking to
how well you can perform late inthe game, specifically after a
certain amount of kilojoules hasbeen done in the ride or the
(04:10):
race itself.
The fourth reason is developspecificity of racing or some
event goal.
This is a good example of hiscriterium racing the punchy on
off, high intensity and sprintat the end sort of ability.
So it's very anaerobic innature, it's on off in nature,
(04:31):
and that specificity can getsomebody who maybe was just
riding on vibes the whole timeand didn't never sprinted, never
did some squiggly efforts likethat Okay.
So those are the four reasons.
Weekly efforts like that Okay,so those are the four reasons.
The fifth reason I have foundand observe in my athletes is
entertainment.
Sometimes it's just more fun todo than riding your bike around
(04:56):
for a while and that'sperfectly legitimate, okay, for
many reasons, many psychologicalreasons, many physiological
reasons.
It's a perfectly acceptablereason.
I didn't think it was at first,but the more I spend time with
it, that's my fifth reason.
So some key points here.
Intervals can help us changeour physiology faster in a more
(05:17):
direct way.
Secondly, if you're crunched ontime, like, I'm guessing, many
of us here on this podcast are.
Intervals can help you be veryefficient with your time.
So I'm not advocating for neverdoing an interval again for the
rest of your life.
Intervals are very effective,but there was a time before the
(05:38):
concept of intervals was eveninvented.
There was a time where peoplewere exercising, racing and
doing things, and if you want abrief history on that and how we
got to where we are today,stressing out about a seven zone
versus a three zone trainingsystem, cp versus FTP, w, prime
versus FRC and wondering what isthe best training program
(06:00):
anyway, then I suggest listeningto a podcast by Steve Magnus
called the Evolution ofEndurance.
I'll link to this in my shownotes.
But my main premise for todayis to tell you and get you to
think differently about whatyou're doing in your training,
and really not doing intervalsmay be just as effective and may
(06:24):
help you develop your riding indifferent ways, including event
specific preparation, whichwe'll talk about later, adding
variety to your training programand, most importantly, thinking
differently about your trainingand what you're actually trying
to achieve.
So let's talk about how totrain by not doing intervals.
The first way to do this justride and have fun doing it.
(06:47):
There's nothing wrong with thisat all.
Whether it's a short amount oftime or a long amount of time,
just go out and ride your bikeand enjoy it.
And I suggest to the diehardinterval folk maybe just have a
month or a time period where youdo this for a bit.
Maybe just have a month or atime period where you do this
for a bit.
It's a breath of fresh air andit's super healthy for the mind
(07:07):
and body and all themicroorganisms associated with
yourself.
Okay and I've advocated forthis in past episodes usually in
that base building phase aftera transition phase or some time
off, but changing your habitsand challenging yourself with
(07:27):
can I just ride how I feel,without some sort of plan or
pain associated with it, allright, that may do wonders for
your brain.
So, for what it's worth, youcan just ride and that can be
part of your plan.
Second aspect of this is go hardwhen you want, but keep some
easy days in there is go hardwhen you want, but keep some
(07:49):
easy days in there.
Interval training has a bit ofa secret baked into it.
No matter the modality, thepattern or the religion that
you're following with yourtraining program.
Typically intervals will behard.
So you want to be hard on thefresh interval days to do the
program well.
So the other days are easy, orthey bring you in when you're
fresh and most programs withintervals have those easy days
(08:11):
baked into the concept.
Going hard when you want takesthe bumpers and guardrails off
the program.
So you have to be more carefulhere.
You have to be more careful soyou don't just rally yourself
every single day.
So there's a time and place forthat and I've mentioned it on
this podcast before where you'dwant to do that.
But my advice goes back to theboring sentiment of stay
(08:33):
balanced.
We know around three days perweek of hard intensity, with
other days being endurance orrest, is a pretty good recipe
overall most weeks for mostpeople.
Keep in mind a long ride thatreally stresses you and pushes
you and makes you tired.
That's still a hard day.
Even though the intensity maybe overall aerobic, that's a
(08:56):
hard day on your system.
So count it as that.
So maybe you're not following aspecific program but you're
putting guardrails in place soyou don't overcook yourself with
too many hard days all the time.
My next piece of advice is whenyou're kind of going off script
and you're not doing intervalsis be sure to use a mixture of
(09:16):
rate of perceived effort andother data points like
kilojoules, normalized power andyou want to track these.
But I'm still going toencourage you to not get overly
structured with the workoutitself.
So here's some example workoutsof how you can get a little bit
more artsy with your training.
First one I think a lot ofpeople like this one is have a
(09:37):
hard climbing day but there's nointervals.
Okay, you want to climb thehills hard.
I generally say perceivedeffort of eight out of 10.
That's associated withthreshold Climbing.
You can usually produce alittle bit more power, squeeze a
little bit more power out ofthe legs.
So maybe eight or nine, and Igive some wiggle room there.
I tell my athletes yeah, justgo climb hard.
Recover on the downhills easyendurance on the flats.
(10:01):
You're just just hitting thehills hard and you're riding
easy endurance in between.
Simple, it's not easy.
It's not an easy workout, butit is very simple in its
approach.
Don't overthink it.
That's example.
One Second example is akilojoule per hour ride, some
(10:22):
sort of goal attached with that.
I don't even know when, but Italked about this in some
episode, maybe a year or two orthree years ago?
I have no idea.
But let's recap what akilojoule is and talk about how
to put this in place.
Kilojoules are a measurement ofwork and the data comes from
your power meter.
It's not linked to heart rate,body weight or any other
(10:45):
variability aspect to the body.
It's simply a unit ofmeasurement which is derived
from your power meter and isaccurate and consistent day to
day, so long as your power meteris calibrated.
I always say a kilojoule todayis a kilojoule, tomorrow is a
kilojoule in one year from now.
So long as the instrument iscalibrated, you can use
kilojoule tracking to determinehow much work per hour you're
(11:08):
doing for different types ofrides and intensities.
It's important to note thatthis is separate from intensity
alone.
It's separate from percentageof FTP in the way that you
quantify it and measure it.
It's a unit of work.
It's mechanical work.
This is especially importantfor long, grindy performance.
Think hilly rides, gravel races, epic shit.
(11:30):
On one hand, we just need ourcardiovascular systems to be
able to endure and hold up forlong periods of time on these
longer events.
So that's, we call that aerobicwork.
Okay, but on the other hand, weneed our peripheral system, our
legs, for cyclists to also beable to hold up and endure over
(11:51):
time.
From an intensity standpoint itis still aerobic work.
However, the musculature needsto be able to hold up and one
way I measure that is thismechanical work, this kilojoule
per hour.
So if we just do intervals andtake breaks in between and do
that all the time, this caninfluence the rate of work and
(12:12):
the strain that could be addingup in that peripheral system.
It changes it work and thestrain that could be adding up
in that peripheral system.
It changes it.
If we take away the recoveryperiods and just keep the
intensity going and keep thekilojoule rate racking up,
you're really going to cause alot of strain to the legs.
That's really what I'm talkingabout in a workout like this Pro
tip here.
(12:33):
If you race and you do events ortrain for the weekend world
championships, the group ride onthe weekend go back in your
data and take a look at thehighest kilojoule per hour that
you've had in kind of amodernity, so maybe the past
year or past couple of years andthen go out and training and
try to replicate it.
Guarantee you it's going tomake you real tired.
(12:53):
But a lot of people don't dothis in their training.
So they do intervals, they do along ride and then they show up
to the race and they're like,holy crap, I was cramping at the
end the first race of the year,maybe something like that.
I was cramping at the end, Iwas so tired.
Oh my gosh.
It's because that's a prettyspecific thing to link it all
together and not have theseinterval breaks.
(13:14):
So being able to identify thathigh kilojoule work rate and
then try to do it in yourtraining, that's a wonderful way
to train and prepare for theupcoming event.
You can use this especially forlong races or rides, say
something like the unbound 200mile gravel ride.
Maybe you never do 7,000kilojoules in your training.
(13:34):
That's a big day for anybody.
But let's just say you've doneit.
Before you looked back, it wasroughly 7,000 kilojoules in your
training.
That's a big day for anybody,but let's just say you've done
it.
Before you looked back, it wasroughly 7,000 kilojoules so, and
it took you maybe 10 to 12hours.
Okay, so you're going to haveto do that work rate per hour if
you signed yourself up for itagain.
So what I would do is go out intraining and try to replicate
(13:55):
that work rate for many hoursupon hours upon hours.
It's a very simple, but I meanit's hard.
It's not easy, right, but it'sa very simple approach to the
training.
So, target 700 to 800 kilojouleper hour work rate.
Have kilojoules pulled up onyour Garmin or your Wahoo device
to keep track of that andyou're just ticking it off one
(14:16):
hour at a time First hour 700kilojoules.
Second hour 1400 kilojoules.
Third hour 2100 kilojoules andyou're just racking it up.
So those numbers are examplenumbers.
Those numbers are not going tofit everybody.
Keep in mind, kilojoule is awork rate.
There's no direct correlationto body weight and to all these
(14:39):
other things that I talked about.
But generally speaking, if yourFTP is higher, typically your
kilojoule work rate per hourwill also be higher.
However, I generally use pastdata history for my athletes to
identify what is an appropriatekilojoule per hour rate to start
training with.
So just use your data to figureout what's going to work best
(15:02):
for you.
You can also use this kilojouleper hour and absolute
kilojoules in a big, hard day toput together a fueling plan for
your training and your racing.
I talked about this with myinterview with Stephanie Howe
just a couple of weeks ago.
So go back and listen to thatone for more details.
Next, let's talk about a couplemore workout ideas of how you
(15:24):
can do some hard training, dosome appropriate training and
not have to do intervals.
So this one, I say play thenormalized power game.
I was just talking to one of myathletes about this one of my
local athletes, and it was funto see.
But basically this is justriding hard the whole time, not
even a hill climb day orwhatever.
This is just the whole time.
So tempo-ish on the flatsthreshold on a hill climb,
(15:48):
attack over the top, pedal onthe downhill and just ride like
a savage.
This is the sleigh on the daythat we're talking about.
The whole goal is to try tokeep the normalized power high
for the whole ride.
Now again to do this, just likefor the kilojoule tracking have
kilojoules displayed on yourcycling computer?
For this one, I want normalizedpower displayed on the cycling
(16:11):
computer.
I always have those two, aswell as other ones, on my
dashboard at any given time.
So I'm tracking that.
Why?
Why is this a good workout?
Why do we want to track this?
Number one?
It's fun.
It's fun to go fast, it's funto push hard, right?
That's why we're here.
Second is it gets you out of theinterval mindset.
Quick story about when I was ayounger coach had an athlete.
(16:36):
We were always doing intervals.
He was doing crits and someroad races Really good at
training, terrible at racing whyI always had him do intervals.
We couldn't link together thatexposure at intensity he would
get dropped, he would get cramps, he couldn't mentally figure it
out, get cramps, he couldn'tmentally figure it out.
And in that way then we had toshift over to some of the stuff
(16:59):
that I'm talking about as wellas group rides and we'll talk
about that too in order to gethim there.
But the interval mindset orbeing you know, the muscles, the
peripheral system, thecardiovascular system, the
mindset being used to having abreak, it's fine.
But if you're, if you're goingto ride hard, if you're going to
do races, if you're going to doevents, if you're going to do
(17:20):
two-hour hill climbs in Europe,you got to break away from the
interval mindset.
This is one way to do it.
Now some people may be askingwhat is the difference between
this and the kilojoule per hourworkout that I just described?
Well, it's typically theintensity, the normalized
playing, the normalized powergame, which is how high can my
normalized power be for both thehour and the whole ride?
(17:43):
So you play two games there.
Uh, it's, it's the intensity.
So with this one, all intensityis on the plate, is on the
table, and you're, you'respiking the power up, you're
doing sprints, you're grindingit uphill climbs, that kind of
stuff.
With the Kilojoule trackingworkout I typically will have
that more aerobic.
So high aerobic or sweet spottype stuff will be where you're
(18:07):
going to be accumulating timeand zone.
This playing, the NP game, allof them, all the intensities,
all the savagery.
It's also a race specifictraining, preparation for sure.
So it's sort of like a groupride.
So let's talk about group rides, because they work hand in hand
together and sometimes whatI'll do, if I'm playing the
(18:29):
normalized power game, at leastin my head, with one of my
athletes and they can't do it insolo training, I'll have them
do it in group rides, becausegroup rides are probably the
best way to get your intensityin without having to think too
hard about it.
For some of my athletes theyare simply on a steady diet of
group rides three times per weekand the rest of the days are
(18:50):
aerobic or rest days.
However, we need to change thefocus of the group ride to match
what we're trying to do intraining.
Now please hear me on this oneIf you are doing anything, just
stop what you're doing andlisten to me.
Right now I am not saying dointervals on the group ride,
(19:14):
please do not do intervals onthe group ride.
That's a very big pet peeve ofmine and I don't advocate
anybody to do that.
What we are saying is changinghow you ride in the group, based
on what we want to try toachieve.
So here here's some examplesearly season, group riding Uh,
if you're trying to buildfitness and build aerobic
capacity, uh, stay up moretoward the front.
So you're just like doing morework, okay, you're high
(19:38):
kilojoules a day, more time inzone, at tempo threshold, sweet
spot, grinding it out.
Mid season, you want to work onmore attacks, trying to break
away from the group.
So, all in on a super hard 30,40 second, sometimes longer,
full on minute attack See if ithits, see if it sticks, see if
(19:59):
somebody comes with you, andthen deal with the intensity
after that, hard, deep attacks.
Finally, maybe in the in seasonand you're trying to work on
your sprint.
Now we're sitting in the groupmore.
We're being more conservative.
We don't want a high kilojouleday, necessarily, but you're
waiting for the townside sprint,you're waiting for the final
sprint, you're waiting to attackand sprint over the top of the
(20:20):
hill to keep the momentum going.
So intermittent spikes of powerthroughout, but you're just
chilling like a villain onwheels for the rest of the time.
So all of those are really goodideas of how to train without
doing intervals themselves.
One nod to the long ride.
I'm a big fan of it, especiallywhen you want to deepen your
(20:42):
aerobic base and your fitness.
It's just a great way to do it.
We're time crunch cyclists, sosometimes that's a luxury.
You really got to plan for itand get the mental gymnastics
going.
For some people that I talk toand hear from on the podcast,
they're super time crunchedduring the week, but they have
some really good flexibility onthe weekend.
(21:03):
So if you're one of theseriders that just loves the long
ride and you're going like Idon't know, four or five or six
hours on Saturday and thenanother three or four on Sunday,
and that's that's why you dowhat you do on your bike, that's
awesome.
Stack it up back to back, gofor it.
But, just like I said before,when you're going to go full
(21:24):
send on the weekend, you got togo full recovery mode after that
.
So Monday and Tuesday maybe,maybe they're just off right,
complete rest days and thenyou're just riding easy and
you're getting ready for anotherbig weekend block.
Okay, so that that that's kindof like the rhythm that you're
going to do and you want toarrive really fresh to the
weekend.
(21:44):
It's more like block trainingand maybe you're not doing
intervals or anything like thaton the weekend, you're just
doing hill climbs and whatever.
But those are your two big days.
It's a great strategy.
I love it.
I wish I would do more of itmyself.
I need to for some of the stuffI have coming up.
But don't go too big or toohard midweek.
Don't overthink it Like ifyou're going that long on the
(22:06):
weekend, uh, chill midweek Cause, then it's going to make your
weekend rides that much more fun, that much more fresh, and
you'll get way more out of itfrom a training and development
standpoint.
So what I'm trying tocommunicate to you is that you
don't need intervals to improveaspects of your physiology, but
in order to know that it'sworking or that you're not
(22:30):
shooting yourself in the foot,you need to manage yourself
wisely If no one is doing it foryou, because, again, riding on
vibes, though it's super fun,can cause some fatigue issues if
you let it run wild.
So let's talk about how tomanage your performance, your
freshness and your fitness.
So this is where we talk aboutmanaging your data and your
(22:51):
training.
I really want to encourageeverybody to look at your data
and check in with yourselfregularly.
I really want to encourageeverybody to look at your data
and check in with yourselfregularly.
You still want to keep yourselfaccountable to measurable
aspects of your own fitness andperformance, and I cover a good
bit of this in detail on arecent episode number 242, but
I'm just going to touch highlevel on this give reminders and
(23:12):
a couple of tips.
So in training peaks, there'ssomething called the performance
management chart and a coupleof tips.
So in training peaks, orsomething called the performance
management chart, I like to saythis tells the story of your
training.
In there you can see ramp ratesof CTL, or is your CTL building
up right, and if you want tobuild fitness, that's great At
some point.
The goal is to not build anymore fitness and you want to
(23:33):
bring, you want to start tofreshen up, so you bring ATL
down.
If you want to freshen up andthen start to really hit on some
intensity, you want to tuneinto your TSB, which is training
stress balance.
This is your freshness factor,right, or your form is what it's
called on training peaks, andyou want to see how fresh or
unfresh you are when you'reperforming at your best or
(23:55):
hitting some of these peak powerdurations, and that's all
really important.
It's very artsy and I would sayyou need to work with your data.
You need to look at your dataand compare your data and get in
tune with that.
To get real good about it orfail.
You hire a coach, plain andsimple.
However, having a good workingknowledge of this performance
(24:16):
management chart and the basicconcepts of it of do.
I want to grow CTL right nowand grow fitness, because, as
endurance athletes, we'respending the majority of the
year pretty much doing that.
But then at some point, when wehave a race or we want to just
intensify our training, we'regoing to do more intensity, less
volume and typically CTL willjust stabilize and we're going
(24:40):
to double down on the intensityand start to go fast, because
really that's why we're here.
That's super fun.
Speaking of going fast, how wemanage that mean max power, what
that means is highest averagepower.
This shows you if you're makingprogress in your performance
and if you're increasing yourmean max power, meaning your 20
minute power is going up, yourfive minute power is going up,
(25:01):
your 22nd power is going up.
Whatever power duration isgoing up throughout the year,
that means you're increasingperformance and if you're not,
you're not simple.
So I love performance.
It's just very simple.
Check in with yourself everysingle day.
You should be asking yourselfhow do I feel?
(25:21):
How tired am I?
How fresh am I?
One thing I ask my athletes iswhat's the real feel?
Over there, the real feel iscompared to the should feel.
Everybody thinks they shouldfeel like a 10 out of 10 every
day.
If 10 is, I feel amazing and Ifeel like conquering the world.
Right, everybody wants to feellike a 10.
The reality is rarely do wefeel like a 10.
(25:43):
So what is the real feel on theday?
Am I a little dented up?
Did I have a good night's sleep?
Did I not have a good night'ssleep?
Is the training from yesterdaystill sitting in my legs?
What's the real feel?
Mood, energy, motivation, howare these going?
And my plan is to go reallyhard and have a hard hill climb
day or to do a high kilojouleday.
(26:06):
But is my motivation lacking?
Is my energy not there?
Am I sad?
That kind of thing.
So all of these are reallyimportant questions to ask
yourself when you're riding on amore abstract sort of plan.
The other thing is when was thelast time you had a true rest
day?
Because if you go into theseconcepts that I'm talking about,
(26:29):
where normal interval traininghas the guardrails baked in and
all of a sudden you're like I'mgoing to explore, I'm going to
start to do what Coach AP saidand do a bunch of rides and then
go easy and all this kind ofstuff.
But how about just a pure restday?
Pure rest days are gold.
They hit the reset button inmagical ways.
So, in my opinion, have one atleast every week, if not every
(26:54):
10 to 12 days, in my opinion.
So, for the record and to wrapthis thing up, all of my
athletes do intervals at somepoint in the year, but some of
them don't do intervals for bigchunks of time and we focus on
things like rate of work orthose kill the jewel per hour
rides.
We focus on durability, wefocus on the art of racing and
(27:17):
tactics in a group ride and I doendorse interval training for
most people, especially ifthey're time crunched athletes.
But getting out of quoteinterval mode does have some
benefits, including addingvariety to the training program,
thinking of things differentlyand perhaps another layer of
specificity to your next race orevent.
(27:37):
Interval training or not, I doadvise to pay attention to other
aspects of your data, like ramprate, fatigue scores and tuning
into yourself or the real feel,before just going out and
slaying yourself even deeperthan you did the day before.
Training and coaching has a lotof art and science to it, both
(28:01):
feelings and data.
You need both for sure,sometimes more than the other,
but always both.
So that's it.
That's our show for today.
If you liked what you heard,please share it with a friend or
your training partner.
If you have any questions onyour own.
If I said something, that's it.
That's our show for today.
If you liked what you heard,please share it with a friend or
your training partner.
If you have any questions onyour own.
If I said something that's likewow, I never really thought
about it that way.
(28:21):
And now I have even morequestions.
Head on over to trainrightcombackslash podcast and click on
ask a training training question.
Those get sent directly to meand my team at CTS and we'll do
our best to answer your questionon a future episode.
So thanks again for listeningand we'll meet back here next
week for more actionabletraining advice.
Thanks for joining us on theTime Crunch Cyclist podcast.
(28:46):
We hope you enjoyed the show.
If you want even moreactionable training advice, head
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That'll help you take yourtraining to the next level.
That's all for now.
(29:07):
Until next time, train hard,train smart, train right.
From the team at CTS.
This is the Time Crunch Cyclistpodcast, our show dedicated to
answering your trainingquestions and providing
actionable advice to help youimprove your performance even if
you're strapped for time.
I'm your host, coach AdamPulford, and I'm one of the over
50 professional coaches whomake up the team at CTS.
In each episode, I draw on ourteam's collective knowledge,
(00:30):
other coaches and experts in thefield to provide you with the
practical ways to get the mostout of your training and
ultimately become the bestcyclist that you can be.
Now on to our show.
Now on to our show.
I was talking to one of myjuniors the other day and they
(00:51):
asked me do I really have to domy intervals today?
I replied nope, and they werelike wait, what?
So again, I said no, you don'tneed to do your intervals today,
or any day really.
They paused for a second andthen they asked then why do you
(01:15):
make me do so many of them?
Now, that's a great question,so so great, in fact, that I
decided to, of course, make apodcast out of it.
I'm your host, coach AdamPulford, and today we'll be
exploring why you should dointervals, if at all.
(01:35):
But first you may be askingyourself what did I tell this
junior athlete in thisconversation?
I can't recall entirely, but itwent something like this I told
them you can ride on vibes, youcan slay every day.
So I told them you can, you canride on vibes, you can slay
every day, shred till you'redead and not stress about a
training program.
That's fine and presumably whatsome people do, but there's
some problems with that, becausewhen you get fit or fast, you
(01:59):
may not know why and you may notbe able to replicate that when
you need to if you're justriding on vibes.
Why, and you may not be able toreplicate that when you need to
if you're just riding on vibes.
Additionally, I tend to seeathletes just overdo it and cook
themselves into overtrainingbecause riding more is generally
how they got fit or fast.
In that process along the way,they typically don't go easy or
(02:20):
rest until it's too late.
However, with some of myathletes and for the majority of
the year for myself, I am notdoing intervals in my training
program, and that is fine.
You just need to know whatlevers to pull on, what dials to
turn and what to look at inyour data to make sure that
you're improving if that's yourgoal, and you need to have a
(02:42):
system in place so you don'tovercook yourself.
So, to start, let's begin byexploring why we do intervals in
the first place.
Well, it all depends on yourgoals, what you have time for
and what you're trying toaccomplish in your training.
It's as simple as that.
I break it down historically.
I've broken it down into fourmajor reasons.
(03:04):
When developing this podcast, Icame up with a fifth.
So here are the four, maybe fivereasons why we do intervals.
First one you do more work inless time.
Okay, so instead of writing fortwo or three hours, we can do
intervals and simply do morework.
That's kilojoules, which we'lltalk about here in a minute.
That's time in zone um, aerobicwork.
(03:27):
However, you want to quantifywork Okay.
Second reason you want toimprove some aspect of your
energy system or your metabolismOkay.
So I want to improve mythreshold.
I want to increase my threshold, for example, you do threshold
training.
Another reason why you dointervals.
Third reason is you want toincrease your durability.
(03:48):
Okay, we've talked aboutdurability on this podcast,
sometimes at length.
It's kind of a new buzzy thing.
We've always known it's been athing, but now we can actually
measure a bit.
Measure it and specificallythat durability is talking to
how well you can perform late inthe game, specifically after a
certain amount of kilojoules hasbeen done in the ride or the
(04:10):
race itself.
The fourth reason is developspecificity of racing or some
event goal.
This is a good example of hiscriterium racing the punchy on
off, high intensity and sprintat the end sort of ability.
So it's very anaerobic innature, it's on off in nature,
(04:31):
and that specificity can getsomebody who maybe was just
riding on vibes the whole timeand didn't never sprinted, never
did some squiggly efforts likethat Okay.
So those are the four reasons.
Weekly efforts like that Okay,so those are the four reasons.
The fifth reason I have foundand observe in my athletes is
entertainment.
Sometimes it's just more fun todo than riding your bike around
(04:56):
for a while and that'sperfectly legitimate, okay, for
many reasons, many psychologicalreasons, many physiological
reasons.
It's a perfectly acceptablereason.
I didn't think it was at first,but the more I spend time with
it, that's my fifth reason.
So some key points here.
Intervals can help us changeour physiology faster in a more
(05:17):
direct way.
Secondly, if you're crunched ontime, like, I'm guessing, many
of us here on this podcast are.
Intervals can help you be veryefficient with your time.
So I'm not advocating for neverdoing an interval again for the
rest of your life.
Intervals are very effective,but there was a time before the
(05:38):
concept of intervals was eveninvented.
There was a time where peoplewere exercising, racing and
doing things, and if you want abrief history on that and how we
got to where we are today,stressing out about a seven zone
versus a three zone trainingsystem, cp versus FTP, w, prime
versus FRC and wondering what isthe best training program
(06:00):
anyway, then I suggest listeningto a podcast by Steve Magnus
called the Evolution ofEndurance.
I'll link to this in my shownotes.
But my main premise for todayis to tell you and get you to
think differently about whatyou're doing in your training,
and really not doing intervalsmay be just as effective and may
(06:24):
help you develop your riding indifferent ways, including event
specific preparation, whichwe'll talk about later, adding
variety to your training programand, most importantly, thinking
differently about your trainingand what you're actually trying
to achieve.
So let's talk about how totrain by not doing intervals.
The first way to do this justride and have fun doing it.
(06:47):
There's nothing wrong with thisat all.
Whether it's a short amount oftime or a long amount of time,
just go out and ride your bikeand enjoy it.
And I suggest to the diehardinterval folk maybe just have a
month or a time period where youdo this for a bit.
Maybe just have a month or atime period where you do this
for a bit.
It's a breath of fresh air andit's super healthy for the mind
(07:07):
and body and all themicroorganisms associated with
yourself.
Okay and I've advocated forthis in past episodes usually in
that base building phase aftera transition phase or some time
off, but changing your habitsand challenging yourself with
(07:27):
can I just ride how I feel,without some sort of plan or
pain associated with it, allright, that may do wonders for
your brain.
So, for what it's worth, youcan just ride and that can be
part of your plan.
Second aspect of this is go hardwhen you want, but keep some
easy days in there is go hardwhen you want, but keep some
(07:49):
easy days in there.
Interval training has a bit ofa secret baked into it.
No matter the modality, thepattern or the religion that
you're following with yourtraining program.
Typically intervals will behard.
So you want to be hard on thefresh interval days to do the
program well.
So the other days are easy, orthey bring you in when you're
fresh and most programs withintervals have those easy days
(08:11):
baked into the concept.
Going hard when you want takesthe bumpers and guardrails off
the program.
So you have to be more carefulhere.
You have to be more careful soyou don't just rally yourself
every single day.
So there's a time and place forthat and I've mentioned it on
this podcast before where you'dwant to do that.
But my advice goes back to theboring sentiment of stay
(08:33):
balanced.
We know around three days perweek of hard intensity, with
other days being endurance orrest, is a pretty good recipe
overall most weeks for mostpeople.
Keep in mind a long ride thatreally stresses you and pushes
you and makes you tired.
That's still a hard day.
Even though the intensity maybe overall aerobic, that's a
(08:56):
hard day on your system.
So count it as that.
So maybe you're not following aspecific program but you're
putting guardrails in place soyou don't overcook yourself with
too many hard days all the time.
My next piece of advice is whenyou're kind of going off script
and you're not doing intervalsis be sure to use a mixture of
(09:16):
rate of perceived effort andother data points like
kilojoules, normalized power andyou want to track these.
But I'm still going toencourage you to not get overly
structured with the workoutitself.
So here's some example workoutsof how you can get a little bit
more artsy with your training.
First one I think a lot ofpeople like this one is have a
(09:37):
hard climbing day but there's nointervals.
Okay, you want to climb thehills hard.
I generally say perceivedeffort of eight out of 10.
That's associated withthreshold Climbing.
You can usually produce alittle bit more power, squeeze a
little bit more power out ofthe legs.
So maybe eight or nine, and Igive some wiggle room there.
I tell my athletes yeah, justgo climb hard.
Recover on the downhills easyendurance on the flats.
(10:01):
You're just just hitting thehills hard and you're riding
easy endurance in between.
Simple, it's not easy.
It's not an easy workout, butit is very simple in its
approach.
Don't overthink it.
That's example.
One Second example is akilojoule per hour ride, some
(10:22):
sort of goal attached with that.
I don't even know when, but Italked about this in some
episode, maybe a year or two orthree years ago?
I have no idea.
But let's recap what akilojoule is and talk about how
to put this in place.
Kilojoules are a measurement ofwork and the data comes from
your power meter.
It's not linked to heart rate,body weight or any other
(10:45):
variability aspect to the body.
It's simply a unit ofmeasurement which is derived
from your power meter and isaccurate and consistent day to
day, so long as your power meteris calibrated.
I always say a kilojoule todayis a kilojoule, tomorrow is a
kilojoule in one year from now.
So long as the instrument iscalibrated, you can use
kilojoule tracking to determinehow much work per hour you're
(11:08):
doing for different types ofrides and intensities.
It's important to note thatthis is separate from intensity
alone.
It's separate from percentageof FTP in the way that you
quantify it and measure it.
It's a unit of work.
It's mechanical work.
This is especially importantfor long, grindy performance.
Think hilly rides, gravel races, epic shit.
(11:30):
On one hand, we just need ourcardiovascular systems to be
able to endure and hold up forlong periods of time on these
longer events.
So that's, we call that aerobicwork.
Okay, but on the other hand, weneed our peripheral system, our
legs, for cyclists to also beable to hold up and endure over
(11:51):
time.
From an intensity standpoint itis still aerobic work.
However, the musculature needsto be able to hold up and one
way I measure that is thismechanical work, this kilojoule
per hour.
So if we just do intervals andtake breaks in between and do
that all the time, this caninfluence the rate of work and
(12:12):
the strain that could be addingup in that peripheral system.
It changes it work and thestrain that could be adding up
in that peripheral system.
It changes it.
If we take away the recoveryperiods and just keep the
intensity going and keep thekilojoule rate racking up,
you're really going to cause alot of strain to the legs.
That's really what I'm talkingabout in a workout like this Pro
tip here.
(12:33):
If you race and you do events ortrain for the weekend world
championships, the group ride onthe weekend go back in your
data and take a look at thehighest kilojoule per hour that
you've had in kind of amodernity, so maybe the past
year or past couple of years andthen go out and training and
try to replicate it.
Guarantee you it's going tomake you real tired.
(12:53):
But a lot of people don't dothis in their training.
So they do intervals, they do along ride and then they show up
to the race and they're like,holy crap, I was cramping at the
end the first race of the year,maybe something like that.
I was cramping at the end, Iwas so tired.
Oh my gosh.
It's because that's a prettyspecific thing to link it all
together and not have theseinterval breaks.
(13:14):
So being able to identify thathigh kilojoule work rate and
then try to do it in yourtraining, that's a wonderful way
to train and prepare for theupcoming event.
You can use this especially forlong races or rides, say
something like the unbound 200mile gravel ride.
Maybe you never do 7,000kilojoules in your training.
(13:34):
That's a big day for anybody.
But let's just say you've doneit.
Before you looked back, it wasroughly 7,000 kilojoules in your
training.
That's a big day for anybody,but let's just say you've done
it.
Before you looked back, it wasroughly 7,000 kilojoules so, and
it took you maybe 10 to 12hours.
Okay, so you're going to haveto do that work rate per hour if
you signed yourself up for itagain.
So what I would do is go out intraining and try to replicate
(13:55):
that work rate for many hoursupon hours upon hours.
It's a very simple, but I meanit's hard.
It's not easy, right, but it'sa very simple approach to the
training.
So, target 700 to 800 kilojouleper hour work rate.
Have kilojoules pulled up onyour Garmin or your Wahoo device
to keep track of that andyou're just ticking it off one
(14:16):
hour at a time First hour 700kilojoules.
Second hour 1400 kilojoules.
Third hour 2100 kilojoules andyou're just racking it up.
So those numbers are examplenumbers.
Those numbers are not going tofit everybody.
Keep in mind, kilojoule is awork rate.
There's no direct correlationto body weight and to all these
(14:39):
other things that I talked about.
But generally speaking, if yourFTP is higher, typically your
kilojoule work rate per hourwill also be higher.
However, I generally use pastdata history for my athletes to
identify what is an appropriatekilojoule per hour rate to start
training with.
So just use your data to figureout what's going to work best
(15:02):
for you.
You can also use this kilojouleper hour and absolute
kilojoules in a big, hard day toput together a fueling plan for
your training and your racing.
I talked about this with myinterview with Stephanie Howe
just a couple of weeks ago.
So go back and listen to thatone for more details.
Next, let's talk about a couplemore workout ideas of how you
(15:24):
can do some hard training, dosome appropriate training and
not have to do intervals.
So this one, I say play thenormalized power game.
I was just talking to one of myathletes about this one of my
local athletes, and it was funto see.
But basically this is justriding hard the whole time, not
even a hill climb day orwhatever.
This is just the whole time.
So tempo-ish on the flatsthreshold on a hill climb,
(15:48):
attack over the top, pedal onthe downhill and just ride like
a savage.
This is the sleigh on the daythat we're talking about.
The whole goal is to try tokeep the normalized power high
for the whole ride.
Now again to do this, just likefor the kilojoule tracking have
kilojoules displayed on yourcycling computer?
For this one, I want normalizedpower displayed on the cycling
(16:11):
computer.
I always have those two, aswell as other ones, on my
dashboard at any given time.
So I'm tracking that.
Why?
Why is this a good workout?
Why do we want to track this?
Number one?
It's fun.
It's fun to go fast, it's funto push hard, right?
That's why we're here.
Second is it gets you out of theinterval mindset.
Quick story about when I was ayounger coach had an athlete.
(16:36):
We were always doing intervals.
He was doing crits and someroad races Really good at
training, terrible at racing whyI always had him do intervals.
We couldn't link together thatexposure at intensity he would
get dropped, he would get cramps, he couldn't mentally figure it
out, get cramps, he couldn'tmentally figure it out.
And in that way then we had toshift over to some of the stuff
(16:59):
that I'm talking about as wellas group rides and we'll talk
about that too in order to gethim there.
But the interval mindset orbeing you know, the muscles, the
peripheral system, thecardiovascular system, the
mindset being used to having abreak, it's fine.
But if you're, if you're goingto ride hard, if you're going to
do races, if you're going to doevents, if you're going to do
(17:20):
two-hour hill climbs in Europe,you got to break away from the
interval mindset.
This is one way to do it.
Now some people may be askingwhat is the difference between
this and the kilojoule per hourworkout that I just described?
Well, it's typically theintensity, the normalized
playing, the normalized powergame, which is how high can my
normalized power be for both thehour and the whole ride?
(17:43):
So you play two games there.
Uh, it's, it's the intensity.
So with this one, all intensityis on the plate, is on the
table, and you're, you'respiking the power up, you're
doing sprints, you're grindingit uphill climbs, that kind of
stuff.
With the Kilojoule trackingworkout I typically will have
that more aerobic.
So high aerobic or sweet spottype stuff will be where you're
(18:07):
going to be accumulating timeand zone.
This playing, the NP game, allof them, all the intensities,
all the savagery.
It's also a race specifictraining, preparation for sure.
So it's sort of like a groupride.
So let's talk about group rides, because they work hand in hand
together and sometimes whatI'll do, if I'm playing the
(18:29):
normalized power game, at leastin my head, with one of my
athletes and they can't do it insolo training, I'll have them
do it in group rides, becausegroup rides are probably the
best way to get your intensityin without having to think too
hard about it.
For some of my athletes theyare simply on a steady diet of
group rides three times per weekand the rest of the days are
(18:50):
aerobic or rest days.
However, we need to change thefocus of the group ride to match
what we're trying to do intraining.
Now please hear me on this oneIf you are doing anything, just
stop what you're doing andlisten to me.
Right now I am not saying dointervals on the group ride,
(19:14):
please do not do intervals onthe group ride.
That's a very big pet peeve ofmine and I don't advocate
anybody to do that.
What we are saying is changinghow you ride in the group, based
on what we want to try toachieve.
So here here's some examplesearly season, group riding Uh,
if you're trying to buildfitness and build aerobic
capacity, uh, stay up moretoward the front.
So you're just like doing morework, okay, you're high
(19:38):
kilojoules a day, more time inzone, at tempo threshold, sweet
spot, grinding it out.
Mid season, you want to work onmore attacks, trying to break
away from the group.
So, all in on a super hard 30,40 second, sometimes longer,
full on minute attack See if ithits, see if it sticks, see if
(19:59):
somebody comes with you, andthen deal with the intensity
after that, hard, deep attacks.
Finally, maybe in the in seasonand you're trying to work on
your sprint.
Now we're sitting in the groupmore.
We're being more conservative.
We don't want a high kilojouleday, necessarily, but you're
waiting for the townside sprint,you're waiting for the final
sprint, you're waiting to attackand sprint over the top of the
(20:20):
hill to keep the momentum going.
So intermittent spikes of powerthroughout, but you're just
chilling like a villain onwheels for the rest of the time.
So all of those are really goodideas of how to train without
doing intervals themselves.
One nod to the long ride.
I'm a big fan of it, especiallywhen you want to deepen your
(20:42):
aerobic base and your fitness.
It's just a great way to do it.
We're time crunch cyclists, sosometimes that's a luxury.
You really got to plan for itand get the mental gymnastics
going.
For some people that I talk toand hear from on the podcast,
they're super time crunchedduring the week, but they have
some really good flexibility onthe weekend.
(21:03):
So if you're one of theseriders that just loves the long
ride and you're going like Idon't know, four or five or six
hours on Saturday and thenanother three or four on Sunday,
and that's that's why you dowhat you do on your bike, that's
awesome.
Stack it up back to back, gofor it.
But, just like I said before,when you're going to go full
(21:24):
send on the weekend, you got togo full recovery mode after that
.
So Monday and Tuesday maybe,maybe they're just off right,
complete rest days and thenyou're just riding easy and
you're getting ready for anotherbig weekend block.
Okay, so that that that's kindof like the rhythm that you're
going to do and you want toarrive really fresh to the
weekend.
(21:44):
It's more like block trainingand maybe you're not doing
intervals or anything like thaton the weekend, you're just
doing hill climbs and whatever.
But those are your two big days.
It's a great strategy.
I love it.
I wish I would do more of itmyself.
I need to for some of the stuffI have coming up.
But don't go too big or toohard midweek.
Don't overthink it Like ifyou're going that long on the
(22:06):
weekend, uh, chill midweek Cause, then it's going to make your
weekend rides that much more fun, that much more fresh, and
you'll get way more out of itfrom a training and development
standpoint.
So what I'm trying tocommunicate to you is that you
don't need intervals to improveaspects of your physiology, but
in order to know that it'sworking or that you're not
(22:30):
shooting yourself in the foot,you need to manage yourself
wisely If no one is doing it foryou, because, again, riding on
vibes, though it's super fun,can cause some fatigue issues if
you let it run wild.
So let's talk about how tomanage your performance, your
freshness and your fitness.
So this is where we talk aboutmanaging your data and your
(22:51):
training.
I really want to encourageeverybody to look at your data
and check in with yourselfregularly.
I really want to encourageeverybody to look at your data
and check in with yourselfregularly.
You still want to keep yourselfaccountable to measurable
aspects of your own fitness andperformance, and I cover a good
bit of this in detail on arecent episode number 242, but
I'm just going to touch highlevel on this give reminders and
(23:12):
a couple of tips.
So in training peaks, there'ssomething called the performance
management chart and a coupleof tips.
So in training peaks, orsomething called the performance
management chart, I like to saythis tells the story of your
training.
In there you can see ramp ratesof CTL, or is your CTL building
up right, and if you want tobuild fitness, that's great At
some point.
The goal is to not build anymore fitness and you want to
(23:33):
bring, you want to start tofreshen up, so you bring ATL
down.
If you want to freshen up andthen start to really hit on some
intensity, you want to tuneinto your TSB, which is training
stress balance.
This is your freshness factor,right, or your form is what it's
called on training peaks, andyou want to see how fresh or
unfresh you are when you'reperforming at your best or
(23:55):
hitting some of these peak powerdurations, and that's all
really important.
It's very artsy and I would sayyou need to work with your data.
You need to look at your dataand compare your data and get in
tune with that.
To get real good about it orfail.
You hire a coach, plain andsimple.
However, having a good workingknowledge of this performance
(24:16):
management chart and the basicconcepts of it of do.
I want to grow CTL right nowand grow fitness, because, as
endurance athletes, we'respending the majority of the
year pretty much doing that.
But then at some point, when wehave a race or we want to just
intensify our training, we'regoing to do more intensity, less
volume and typically CTL willjust stabilize and we're going
(24:40):
to double down on the intensityand start to go fast, because
really that's why we're here.
That's super fun.
Speaking of going fast, how wemanage that mean max power, what
that means is highest averagepower.
This shows you if you're makingprogress in your performance
and if you're increasing yourmean max power, meaning your 20
minute power is going up, yourfive minute power is going up,
(25:01):
your 22nd power is going up.
Whatever power duration isgoing up throughout the year,
that means you're increasingperformance and if you're not,
you're not simple.
So I love performance.
It's just very simple.
Check in with yourself everysingle day.
You should be asking yourselfhow do I feel?
(25:21):
How tired am I?
How fresh am I?
One thing I ask my athletes iswhat's the real feel?
Over there, the real feel iscompared to the should feel.
Everybody thinks they shouldfeel like a 10 out of 10 every
day.
If 10 is, I feel amazing and Ifeel like conquering the world.
Right, everybody wants to feellike a 10.
The reality is rarely do wefeel like a 10.
(25:43):
So what is the real feel on theday?
Am I a little dented up?
Did I have a good night's sleep?
Did I not have a good night'ssleep?
Is the training from yesterdaystill sitting in my legs?
What's the real feel?
Mood, energy, motivation, howare these going?
And my plan is to go reallyhard and have a hard hill climb
day or to do a high kilojouleday.
(26:06):
But is my motivation lacking?
Is my energy not there?
Am I sad?
That kind of thing.
So all of these are reallyimportant questions to ask
yourself when you're riding on amore abstract sort of plan.
The other thing is when was thelast time you had a true rest
day?
Because if you go into theseconcepts that I'm talking about,
(26:29):
where normal interval traininghas the guardrails baked in and
all of a sudden you're like I'mgoing to explore, I'm going to
start to do what Coach AP saidand do a bunch of rides and then
go easy and all this kind ofstuff.
But how about just a pure restday?
Pure rest days are gold.
They hit the reset button inmagical ways.
So, in my opinion, have one atleast every week, if not every
(26:54):
10 to 12 days, in my opinion.
So, for the record and to wrapthis thing up, all of my
athletes do intervals at somepoint in the year, but some of
them don't do intervals for bigchunks of time and we focus on
things like rate of work orthose kill the jewel per hour
rides.
We focus on durability, wefocus on the art of racing and
(27:17):
tactics in a group ride and I doendorse interval training for
most people, especially ifthey're time crunched athletes.
But getting out of quoteinterval mode does have some
benefits, including addingvariety to the training program,
thinking of things differentlyand perhaps another layer of
specificity to your next race orevent.
(27:37):
Interval training or not, I doadvise to pay attention to other
aspects of your data, like ramprate, fatigue scores and tuning
into yourself or the real feel,before just going out and
slaying yourself even deeperthan you did the day before.
Training and coaching has a lotof art and science to it, both
(28:01):
feelings and data.
You need both for sure,sometimes more than the other,
but always both.
So that's it.
That's our show for today.
If you liked what you heard,please share it with a friend or
your training partner.
If you have any questions onyour own.
If I said something, that's it.
That's our show for today.
If you liked what you heard,please share it with a friend or
your training partner.
If you have any questions onyour own.
If I said something that's likewow, I never really thought
about it that way.
(28:21):
And now I have even morequestions.
Head on over to trainrightcombackslash podcast and click on
ask a training training question.
Those get sent directly to meand my team at CTS and we'll do
our best to answer your questionon a future episode.
So thanks again for listeningand we'll meet back here next
week for more actionabletraining advice.
Thanks for joining us on theTime Crunch Cyclist podcast.
(28:46):
We hope you enjoyed the show.
If you want even moreactionable training advice, head
over to trainrightcom backslashnewsletter and subscribe to our
free weekly publication.
Each week you'll get in-depthtraining content that goes
beyond what we cover here on thepodcast.
That'll help you take yourtraining to the next level.
That's all for now.
(29:07):
Until next time, train hard,train smart, train right.
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