New Year, New Perspectives on Achieving Meaningful Goals, with Coach Jason Koop

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
From the team at CTS.
This is the Time Crunch Cyclistpodcast, our show dedicated to
answering your trainingquestions and providing
actionable advice to help youimprove your performance even if
you're strapped for time.
I'm your host, coach AdamPulford, and I'm one of the over
50 professional coaches whomake up the team at CTS.
In each episode, I draw on ourteam's collective knowledge,

(00:30):
other coaches and experts in thefield to provide you with the
practical ways to get the mostout of your training and
ultimately become the bestcyclist that you can be.
Now on to our show.
Now onto our show.

(00:50):
Happy New Year, time Crunchfans.
I'm your host, coach AdamPulford.
The end of the year is usually atime for reflection,
introspection and inspirationfor all the new year to come.
Many of you listening todayhave likely curated a list of
goals, big races and new habitsthat you want to achieve or
develop in 2025.
I know I've been going throughthis process with some of my

(01:12):
athletes already at the end ofthe season and some yet to come,
from Zoom meetings withprofessional athletes and their
team directors or performancemanagers to the time crunched
athlete wanting to take it tothe next level, finding the best
path forward to optimizetraining, health and success and
ultimately, their performance.
That's the elusive pinnacleachievement we're all striving

(01:34):
for here.
So what does that process looklike, how much time should you
put into it and how should yougo about it?
I'm here today with coach JasonKoop to discuss all this and
more.
Koop, welcome back to the show.

Speaker 2 (01:48):
I'm excited to do this every year, Adam.
It's a treat to recap how wescrewed it up and how we are
going to make it better.

Speaker 1 (01:55):
This is true.
Well, one of my talking pointsactually was probably just that,
because I remember having aconversation with you where you
challenged me on my goals, sowe'll talk about that.
But yes, coop, let the cat outof the bag.
He's been on the podcast beforeand, for those who have caught
those past episodes, you'll knowthat Coach Jason Coop is our

(02:16):
head ultra running coach at CTS.
He has his own podcast calledthe Coop Cast and he's an author
.
He pumps out a monthlynewsletter and overall he is a
slay every day sort of guy.

Speaker 2 (02:28):
I know I've always learned a lot when I talk to him
.
What's that?

Speaker 1 (02:32):
I like that title slay every day, slay every day
man.
Yeah, I learn a ton from himevery time I talk to him.
I hope everyone out there willabsorb a ton of knowledge from
him in our conversation.
So, coop, let's go full spongemode for all things New Year's.
Let's do it, let's do it.
Okay, straight up to the point.

(02:52):
Have you spent some timebrooding over all the ups and
downs of 2024?
And while you've been laying onyour hospital bed, has it made
it any better or worse?

Speaker 2 (03:03):
Well, I've definitely had more time to I don't know,
and so I was thinking about thistoday.
In some ways I've had like moretime to process this, but in a
lot of ways I've had less,because normally, uh, running is
the way that I like workthrough a lot of things.
I guess for the audience, Ijust to let them know I recently
had surgery on my knee and sorunning has kind of been off the

(03:23):
table and will be off the tablefor the next few months.
Um and uh, I just say that Idon't know if it's better or
worse, but it's just definitelydifferent because I don't have
an active mode to kind ofprocess things.
I have, I have a passive modeand, as irony would have it, um,
uh, I'm way less efficient withmy time now that I'm not

(03:47):
running, for a whole host, awhole host of reasons, some of
them just logistical.
Just getting around on crutchesand stuff like that, you know,
being non-weight, bearing on oneleg and you know, you know all
these, all these other things,just makes it, makes it a little
bit more difficult.
So just cranking out, you know,work product, um, has not been
the norm, not been the normalflow for me.
So I don't know, I don't knowhow to answer your question,

(04:09):
other than it's just a differentprocess for me.
But I have spent a lot of timeprocessing it because our
quote-unquote season wrapped upin September, october, and so,
even before I had the surgeryand all this other stuff, I've
been able to kind of like workthrough it and also start to
work towards the next year witha lot of athletes.

Speaker 1 (04:28):
Yeah, yeah, and I think I mean that time of injury
.
Um, it changes a lot of thingsfor an athlete or somebody who
is athletic, anything from justyour day to day to how your
brain unravels thoughts andthings.

Speaker 2 (04:42):
You know that, that moving meditation, as I've
talked about before on the, onthe podcast, so when you don't
have that, yeah, totally, andI've had a number of athletes
that have had to go throughlong-term injury recovery
processes for one reason oranother.
Either it was a chronic injuryor an acute, you know kind of
freak accident or whatever.
I've obviously had experiencekind of on the other side of the
table like helping counsel themthrough that and kind of their

(05:05):
return to kind of return tosport, and I've got to put a
little bit of those things intopractice for myself.
So you know it always comesfull circle.

Speaker 1 (05:12):
I guess it always does come full circle and just
off the cuff here I mean like inyour only a few weeks into this
but what has been like onestrategy that you've used as a
coach that you're now trying toapply to yourself.
That may be working, or it'slike holy shit, that doesn't
work for me, like what do youlearn about yourself in that?

Speaker 2 (05:33):
process.
Yeah, I mean, the athletes thatI work with will certainly
recognize this phrase because Iuse it a lot and that's to try
not to forecast.
Use it a lot and that's to trynot to forecast.
So you know, this is like oneof the first things you know.
You know you're going intosurgery, you meet with the
surgeon, you know before it, forwhatever reason, and the
biggest question, uh, peoplehave on their minds is when can

(05:56):
I get back to x?
And most of the time x is likewhat?
Normal life, right, butsometimes there's like full
weight bearing, right.
Sometimes there's another kindof inflection point and, um, the
surgeons and the physicaltherapists and things like that,
they really hate to play thatgame because everybody is a
little bit different and theydon't want to like timetable
things out too much and thingslike that.

(06:16):
And, um, you know, so of coursethe surgeon, you know, satiated
that uh request of mine andeven the physical therapy plan
gets drawn out for six months,you know, to some capacity, just
to, just to, just to satiatethat.
But but I've kind of taken alittle bit of my own advice in

(06:36):
that arena and I'm just tryingto just not quite play it day by
day, but more in the short termchunks.
So I know, two weeks postsurgery I've got this you know
kind of inflection point where Imeet with the surgeon how did
it go, how do I feel, and thingslike that.
Then at that point in timethere'll be another chunk.
That's three or four weeks.
That creates some sort ofinflection point.
I go from non-weight bearing to50% weight bearing or whatever.

(06:58):
So I'm trying tocompartmentalize it into those
versus like oh my God, god, whenam I gonna run, you know hard
rock again?
Or you know something like that.
Like I'm just trying to bereally, really patient with the,
with the process, and not tryto forecast too much okay, so,
uh, injury, injury aside, andwe'll put the kind of personal
coop to on the shelf.

(07:20):
Please do, please do becausethat's not material to this.
We'll talk about the coachingand the athletes that I work
with.
How's that Exactly?

Speaker 1 (07:28):
So we'll talk about the coaching process with
reflection and someintrospection.
For you straight up, hardquestions are what did you do
really bad this year as a coach?

Speaker 2 (07:42):
The scenario that I came up with is it's very, very,
very specific and I was I'mgonna have a hard time kind of
like articulating like a biggerpicture message here.
So maybe adam, you can, youknow, help me out on what that
means for the kind of thebroader from the broader public.
But let me kind of set thescenario up first and then I'll

(08:03):
get into how I've kind ofscrewed it up.
So there are two marquee races,ultramarathon races in the
world that receive adisproportionate amount of
everything Spotlight, money,attention, prognostication, you
name it.
They just receive an enormousamount of it, way, so, way more

(08:25):
so than any other races Um, andthat's the Western States 100
and the a hundred mile versionof UTMB.
So UTMB itself Um, and I had anumber of athletes this year
that attempted to do both ofthose.
So the Western States 100 isthird week in July and the and
UTMB is is usually the the lastweek in august or the first.

(08:46):
The first weekend in septemberis when they have been trying to
like move it back to um, andthey're both hundred mile races.
They're both exceedinglydifficult.
They're kind of different intheir like profiles the western
states 100 is flat and fast andsuper hot, and the in utmb is
more of a mountainous race wherethere's required kit and a lot
of times it can be cold and youknow on and on and on.

(09:09):
So two, two, two reallydifferent races, both kind of at
the pinnacle of the sport, andI had a number of elite athletes
that wanted to do both in thesame year and my.
My tendency with athlete goalsto maybe preview a little bit of
what we're going to talk aboutlater is to be not laissez-faire
but realize that they're theathlete's goals, not mine, and

(09:32):
they can set those up.
And then it's my job to kind ofput them in the right context.
And so with these two things, Iwould say that that latter part
of putting in the right contextis something that I can
definitely improve upon.
That latter part of putting inthe right context is something
that I can definitely improveupon, because the way that,
after everything was all saidand done, I had one athlete that
did exceedingly well, won bothof those races, set a course

(09:53):
record at UTMB it's Katie Shywho kind of unanonymizes it, but
I guess I really can't do it atthat point.
So clearly that double isdoable, right, and you can do it
at the highest level and youcan do it at that void.
So clearly that double is is,is is doable, right, and you can
do it at the highest level andyou can do it exceedingly well.
She was.
She ran the second fastest timewith the Western States 100 and
the fastest time ever at UTMB.

(10:14):
Great, great results.
But then I had a number, anumber of other different
athletes that did really well atWestern States and dropped out
at UTMB.
So you have these kind of likepolarizing results, like quite
literally the best of the bestand then really good but
terrible on the other end of it.

(10:34):
And the failure point from acoaching perspective is I've
tried to like internalize.
It is to just recognize,recognize better and articulate
better how exceedingly difficultit is to race that hard of a
race twice in the same year atthe highest level.

(10:55):
Those, all of those thingscombined are exceedingly
difficult, not impossible,obviously not impossible, but
exceedingly exceedinglydifficult.
And I probably not, probably, Idefinitely did not kind of put

(11:17):
the like, I guess, the gravityof that exceedingly difficult
part kind of in front of, uh, infront in front of those
athletes, because it really iseverything.
It's how hard the races are.
It's the proximity of the racesto each other.
And you know, I would say, moreimportantly and this is what
makes it specific that I'm goingto have a hard time kind of
broadening it out to a biggeraudience is to do it on that
stage with the most heatedcompetition that anybody would

(11:42):
see all year.
That's what makes itexceedingly difficult to kind of
do twice and to kind of getright twice.
Um, but yeah, it's, it's like Isaid, I didn't, I obviously
didn't totally screw it upbecause I had one athlete that
did exceedingly well, not acouple of other other athletes
that that did not, and we'rekind of working through what
that, what that process actuallymeans.

(12:04):
But anyway, anyway, that's whereit really kind of lies.
It's like, can you race at thehighest level of competition
twice in a year within areasonable proximity to each
other, given those races arekind of dramatically different
from one another?
And I've come kind of come downto the opinion that at least at

(12:26):
the elite level this is one ofthose crawl before you walk
before you run things you've gotto demonstrate mastery in one
of those races before you wantto go and put them both together
.
And that's not to say that youhave to be light years better

(12:47):
than everybody else to do wellin those competitions, but at
least you have to have someproven ground in one or one of
the, in one of those two arenasbefore, kind of like, jumping
full full boat, before eventhinking about jumping full boat
, and then you think about, okay, can you actually pull it
together?
And so I've kind of come backto that and a lot of the kind of

(13:09):
the future planning that I'vehad with athletes that are still
wanting to do the same thingright.
Some of the athletes that didn'tdo very well in the second race
, and even new athletes thathave kind of seen how well it
can go, are now interested intrying to pull this off.
I want to do exceedingly wellin Western States.
I want to do exceedingly wellin UTMB, and how do I like pull
these things together?
One of the ways that I'm kindof like reframing that is yeah,

(13:31):
you're a good enough athlete todo that, but first off, let's
make sure that you can just doone really well before you can
do two really well.
And that's a hard thing to tella really good athlete that's had
a lot of success in other areasis let's just get this one
right first, and then we canmove on and try to like compound
it, compound the difficulty,because it's not just doubly
difficult.
You know how this is, adam,they don't like add on top of

(13:55):
each other.
There's like an exponentialfunction on getting both of
those, on getting both of thoseright.
So anyway, I mean to kind oflike wrap it up.
It's.
It's like, whenever the problemgets like more complicated that
you're trying to solve, youjust got to recognize the
difficulty that you're adding toit, and it's usually an excess
of what you can actuallyenvision on paper.

Speaker 1 (14:16):
Yeah, completely agree.
I think to get somerelatability to the cycling
world, it's kind of like, uh, atthe like, at the world class
level, it's the Grand Tours,right.
So the Giro de France of Vuelta, when you have an athlete tied
up, gotcha, who wins a couplethat year as well as a world
championship, I mean it'samazing the guy's on the next

(14:38):
level, you got somebody likeRoklic who crashes out and
always does terribly in tour defrance, but he goes on and wins
the world.
So it's like, and even beforethey get there, it's you know
all the things.
Uh, we've talked on thispodcast before and I think
carmichael, actually, he talksabout, um, when you do your
first grand tour, it's just, Imean, hopefully you just don't

(15:01):
even like die, hopefully youcome back to the sport success
by lack of failure.
Yeah, and I'd say, for the timecrunched athletes, it's like
your first you know a hundredmile gravel race, or 200 mile
gravel race.
When I'm framing that up, orLeadville 100, more and more I
tell my athletes this is yourfirst time doing it, okay, no
expectation, no expectationother than finish.

(15:23):
And I even have some peopleit's like you want to do it this
year, let's do it next year,cause we need to train this year
, right?
So it's, it's framing that up.
The first time you do somethinglike some epic, stupid shit,
like you're going to go throughsome wild emotions and wild
physical sensations and once youdo that you'll become better at

(15:45):
it.
And then you keep on addinglayers to it, and that's really
what Coop here is talking aboutwith his athletes.
So, coming back to it, what didyou do bad about it?
And also what did you do reallywell?
Because that's my follow-upquestion to 2024.

Speaker 2 (16:01):
Well, they're both the same, honestly, because once
again, again, I had an athletethat demonstrated, you know,
great results.
That's very, very difficult todo and you know, you know me,
adam I don't like to like takehardly any credit for, uh,
athletes results.
They they have to kind of likeown that.
But I do recognize how, howexceedingly difficult it is to

(16:22):
perform at the highest leveltwice a year in super arduous
races, when everybody puts abullseye on somebody's back and
they know that they're the bestand all this other thing.
Those are hard things toactually to actually execute on,
not once, just twice.
Yeah, because there's there's awhole host of things.
You try to do everything right,of course, but then you also
have all the random things.
You can can get sick, you can,you know, freaking, trip over

(16:46):
something in the middle of thetrail and a rattlesnake could
bite you.
I mean, there's, like you know,all this kind of like random
stuff that you also have toavoid through serendipity, as
well as like the fortune thatyou can actually create.
So, like I said, I mean I thinkI've got a good blueprint to
try to get it right.
I would say the error, though,is not appreciating how

(17:09):
difficult it is, and then kindof articulating that to the
athlete, because once again, theathlete comes to you with the
goals right, it's always theathlete's goals.
Hey, I want to do this and this, frame those goals up and how
realistic they are and howrealistic they may or may not be
, and then create a pathwayforward to training for those

(17:30):
goals.
I'll say the latter part.
You know, we're very goodtechnicians, right, that was
kind of our background.
We know how to design training.
We can build training programsup, you know, in our sleep.
That part of it kind of goeswithout saying.
It's the framing it up piecethat I think that that that I
need a little bit more work onin terms of, okay, now this
whole thing is set up.

(17:50):
This is what this actuallymeans.
These are some realisticexpectations and you've got to
be okay with some of the giveand take that naturally happens
when you're trying to do twothings or three things or
however many they are, uh, in ina singular year.

Speaker 1 (18:07):
Yeah, yeah, I want to get to some framework, but
before we do, I've got onequestion and then one more thing
kind of related to to cycling.
I I'd say with my athletesmaster's athletes in particular,
that may have, um, like a twosport uh goal for the year, so
they want to win a road nationalchampionships and they want to

(18:28):
win cycle cross nationalchampionships, or cycle cross
and mountain bike or whatever.
So the two disciplines,sometimes three, that is really
tough, it's super tough to carryover because the people who are
usually winning at the toplevel are the, the age groupers,
the masters athletes that are,I mean, specialized, you know,

(18:51):
uh time crunched athletes inthat realm.
But to be able to span to both,or juniors or elites, I mean,
you have to respect that process.
And, as you said, there's uh we, even with one sport, there's a
ton of variables that couldjust take away from it.
You go to.
You said there's uh we, evenwith one sport, there's a ton of
variables that could just takeaway from it.
You go to double, you know,exponentially.
So so before we talk about thatframework, um, when you've had,

(19:14):
so you had an athlete win bothdo it.
It's amazing You've had uhathletes do one really well and
then one really bad from thosetwo races.
So, when you've had thosesuccesses as well as those

(19:38):
failures, when you're talking tothose athletes, what's your
process or what's some of yourlanguage that you use to pull it
back on track Whatever thattrack was that you set in
January of 2024, how do you pullthem back to?

Speaker 2 (19:44):
maybe they're up in the clouds and they're like hell
, yeah, no one can touch me now,or it's like I might as well
just quit this sport and justcry well, the the tendency is is
everybody suffers from recencybias, so they look at the last
thing that they did very well orvery poorly, and then they
judge their you know, last 18months or whatever of effort

(20:07):
just based off of that.

Speaker 1 (20:10):
So we always be in cycling, we say you're as good
as your last race.
That's how people view it, butliterally it's.

Speaker 2 (20:15):
I mean, there's a there's a clinical term for it,
it's called recency bias, right,and whatever you've done last
or remembered last or saw last,that's going to have like the
most material impact on you andyour psyche and how you feel
about the world and stuff likethat.
So one of my jobs, is one of myroles as a coach, is to broaden
that lens out and say, okay,even, and even when they smash
it, even when they you know, goand do great things, set prs,

(20:38):
finish the ludville trail 100,whatever it is, you still have
to broaden it out and say, okay,let's like look at the whole
thing, and part of that wholething is training, and usually I
just drill it back to that.
I'm like this is how thetraining went.
Let's just look at how manygreen days you had on training
peaks.
Sometimes it's just as simpleas that.
Right, what's the percentage ofgreen days?
Is it over 80?
Okay, good, like we can, we cankind of look at that.
So so that's the first thing iskind of broadening the lens out

(21:00):
, good, bad, or I think thatthat process is kind of really
the same.
And then usually what I do isI'm very surgical about.
These things went exceedinglywell, these things were just
kind of average and these thingswent really poorly.
And if you can hit a normalbell curve distribution across
those, great, you kind of callit good because you don't expect

(21:23):
everything to go perfectly andyou don't expect everything to
go poorly.
If everything else just goesaverage.
80% of the stuff just goesaverage and you compound that
over an entire career, not onlyjust a season, you're going to
have a really well-developedathlete.
So I don't think it really getsany more any any kind of work

(21:44):
any more complicated than that.
Sure, there's nuance and andwhat is average and what is what
is good and all this otherstuff.
But I like to just broaden thelens out and try to, like,
remove the recency bias becauseyou know, know, people always
love a winner.
That's great, you need tocelebrate and everything.
But you do need to look backduring the year and be just as
critical about, uh, when you'rewinning about that year as when

(22:07):
you ended up on a loss.
So I, like I said, I don'tthink the process is any
different.
It's just broadening the lensout and trying to use as wide an
aperture as possible whenyou're evaluating what actually
went on.

Speaker 1 (22:19):
I do something really similar and I did a podcast
with coach Jim Miller and weboth kind of said the same thing
, where it's like when we have abig win, we celebrate for 24
hours, then we get back to work.
Right, you get back to work inthe process and when you have
the big win or the big loss, goto the data, go to the trends

(22:40):
and see what got you there.
Because if you can't determinewhat made you win or lose, how
are you going to do it again?
Yeah, so in that way you figureout what works and what didn't.

Speaker 2 (22:51):
Yeah, a hundred percent, and you're always
looking for ways to improve.
Right, and sometimes those arethe lead end of the spectrum.
It's very rarely more, becausesometimes they can do a little
bit more, but most of the timesthey get really good because
they can do a lot.
One of the big pieces ofemphasis that I've had on a lot

(23:16):
of my elite athletes over thepast few years is who can we
bring into your team and build amore cohesive team at the same
time?
So it's not good enough to havea coach and a massage therapist

(23:42):
and somebody to analyze yourblood and a massage therapist
and a nutritionist and have allthose people kind of exist on
different islands.
It's not a good, it's not goodenough to have that.
How do you integrate all thosepeople into like a cohesive unit
?
And that's a lot of work.
Like it's a lot, a lot, a lotof work.
It's way more so than than youwould, than anybody would
imagine, if you were trying totrying to just uh, trying to
trying to figure it out onyourself.
It's, it's, yeah, it's just alot, a lot, a lot, it's, it's,
it's way.
The cost per athlete, the timecost per athlete, is more, not

(24:04):
less, even though you're notdoing all the programming.
So just to give a quick example, I'm capable enough that I can
do a reasonable job strengthtraining and a reasonable job
prescribing.
You know some, but not all, ofthe nutrition side of things and
I can obviously program the runside.
You would think that offloadingthe strength training and

(24:25):
offloading the nutrition stuffto professionals saves me time,
which is true from theprogramming side of it.
But you lose that time two orthree fold trying to coordinate
everybody and that's fine, yeah,and communicate in that and
that's fine, that that loss ofefficiency or whatever is

(24:45):
totally fine, because you're not.
Efficiency is not your goal.
The best result is your goal.
So, however inefficient theprocess is is, however, however
inefficient it actually is, youdon't intentionally try to make
it that way, but you kind ofdon't care about the time cost.
You want it, you want it to beright first and foremost.
So anyway, I don't remember mypoint with that is, but when
we're looking at these big, whenwe're looking at these big

(25:06):
picture things and what actuallyto change?
Very rarely is it more.
A lot of times it's like how dowe coordinate this better?
How do we set this up?
How do you actually like pickand choose the events that are
like perfect for you from atiming perspective?
How do you build the rightteams around you?
It kind of becomes those thingsthat you know a lot of people
would view it as like marginal,but at the elite level they've

(25:27):
done so much training at acertain point that you can do,
you can just do go back to thewell and do more training, but
everybody's going to go do that.
So you've got to find somealpha, some edge somewhere that
still has efficacy to where theathlete can still improve
relative more relative to theircompetition.
Who's all improving at the sametime?

Speaker 1 (25:48):
Yeah, and I, you know people listening to this
podcast, I would say are similarin the way that they've been
training.
They're into it right.
We have some new athletescoming in and they're looking
for that better edge and allthis kind of thing.
But you know, my message thereis keep on going and do more up
to a point, still do it properly, still do it right.
But for, like I said, theMasters athletes that are trying

(26:11):
to, you know, double up and winthe road, win the cross for the
junior, all that you have to doit better.
And that refinement, I think,is where I'm at too.
It's I'm not drasticallychanging anything, it's it's
refining the process, for my ownprocess, the process of the
athlete.
And I think that's a reallyimportant message for everybody

(26:35):
out there, because I'm guessingthose who have been training for
five, six, seven years in youknow they haven't done it Like,
if you've been going that longin this sport and you're getting
to those big races and havingsome successes, you're not doing
anything drastically wrong.
But the refinement process, Ithink, think, is where you need

(26:55):
to tune into.
So in that way I want to, Iwant to share some of my
framework of, uh, how I workwith an athlete.
When we're talking about goals,what it, what it means, like
kind of my definitions of sorts.
I want to just blow through ita little bit, see if you do the
same thing, um, and then we'llgo to back to some reflection on

(27:17):
that aspect.
So when I'm shaping up thesegoals, what the process looks
like is end of the year, justlike Coop and I talked about.
We look at what we did well,what we did poorly, how we got
there, and then as we go forwardinto the next year, I organize
it in two different ways outcomegoals and process goals.
Into the next year, I organizeit in two different ways outcome

(27:37):
goals and process goals.
Outcome goals is what we wantto achieve win, finish,
leadville, whatever it is.
Process goals is how we getthere.
So we define the zigging andzagging a little bit more with
words of that actual outcome.
Then we categorize these racesas ABC, maybe, lesser races,
training races, okay, so that arace is the pinnacle, that's the

(27:57):
big one, maybe in, probably.
Usually there's one, sometimesthere's two B races building up
to a C races and training racesare just practice races to get
there, the, the.
The objective of those races isjust to refine that process.
And then, finally, one thingthat I've been doing slightly

(28:17):
differently is I for my athletes, where it matters, I encourage
them to have a tactical goal,technical goal and an outcome
goal at each of the races orevents that they're doing.
And we can expand on that alittle bit more.
It's a little self-explanatory,but finally I build that all
into an annual plan.
I don't take a ton of timedoing that necessarily, but I

(28:38):
lay it up with the timing ofthose A races, in particular the
B races, and then trickle inC's, but C's and training races
kind of like come and go.
We can decide on those as wemove throughout the year.
And then I check on itquarterly and I think that is
important just to make sure thatwe're still in that same
training process.
Or you know, was the athleteinjured?
Did they get sick?
What derailed us in just makingsure that we stay on the rails?

(29:02):
So high level coop.
To you, is that similar ordrastically different than what
you do?

Speaker 2 (29:08):
It's similar.
I don't have the formal, likequarterly or whatever check in
process, but because a lot of myelite stuff we're based on,
we're doing it on a team basis.
We try to do it around theinflection points.
So when a season changes, orwhen you go from high volume to
high intensity or low volume tolow intensity, whatever, like
whatever the structural changein the training is or the

(29:30):
material change in the trainingis.
But a lot of times you can'tmake, you can't make those
meetings, like with uh, likelaser, like precision, just
cause you're trying tocoordinate everybody's calendars
and you know that that just iswhat it is.
So the check-in process is alittle bit different.
But but starting from startingfrom this like 30,000 foot level
of what are you actually goingto do 365 days from now, from,

(29:57):
uh, you know, I'm not, maybe noteven from a time perspective
right how many hours per weekare you training?
But what are the general themesof the training?
Is it high volume?
Is it high intensity?
Is it more tactical?
When does the nutrition getlaid in?
Are there specificinterventions like a heat
training or anything like that?
Just bring everybody on thesame page as to when those

(30:17):
actually would happen.
I think it is the kind of themost material things because
you're giving the athlete aheads up at that point and,
honestly, that's the value for,at least for me as a coach and
I'm probably speaking from alittle bit of a biased
perspective because I've beendoing it for so long the value
proposition for creating a longrange plan or an annual training
plan for me as a coach is notso that I have my stuff

(30:39):
organized.
Maybe there's a little bit ofvalue in that, but I've been
doing it for so long that I cankind of do the architecture in
my head.
It's to communicate it to theathlete and to the team, who
hasn't been doing it for 25years, and a lot of times I
actually like, in full admission.
There's another thing that Iscrew up is not articulating
that long range plan correctly,because I know it all in my head

(31:01):
but I don't realize that theathlete doesn't always know it
in their head as well.
So they're going to be like,hey, when are my long runs?
And that's the key to me, that Ididn't articulate it that well
right, when I get trainingquestions been answered in some
in kind of some other format.
But the process is is.
I would say it was similar,maybe not as granular as you, in
terms of the outcome goalsversus the tactical goals and

(31:25):
things like that.
Like I, just I tend to keep itprocess versus outcome and
divide it into those categoriesdo the long, do do the long
range plan in a really, really,really high level and then just
leave it at that.

Speaker 1 (31:40):
Yeah, yeah, and I'll just share.
It's like that structure that Iwent through.
Anybody can use it and it'sit's out there, existing Um.
So I would say I wouldencourage everybody, if you
haven't done an annual plan like, do that, shape it up, rewind,
listen to that again.
It's not all that complicatedbut, like Coop said, when you do

(32:02):
this for 20 years, like we haveit's existing and it's ever
going Sometimes I even take anap, I wake up, I'm like boom
there, because it's just alwaysgoing in the back of your brain.
However, what I've done poorlyin years past has been not
articulating that, not buildingsomething up.
So to your point, coop, yeah,it's, it's more about like

(32:23):
communicating it to the athleterather than I'm organized as a
coach because I can do thisliterally in my sleep and it's
good, Right.
I think when you walk throughthe process of it, you do it a
lot better, and especially whenyou articulate it and then you
have to if you're working onteams like you.
Just that is part of theprocess of um.
You know, forecasting or notforecasting, but um,

(32:46):
demonstrating that you arecompetent, you have a plan and
go, otherwise you won't have ajob with these elite sometimes
here's here's a good anecdoteand I don't know why this is the
case.

Speaker 2 (32:57):
Sometimes I I, I think this, I think statement,
because there's no way toevaluate it.
I actually think I do thetraining architecture better
when I don't do a long-rangeplan and I do just keep it in my
head when I do put it on paper.
Because, like when I put it onpaper, here's we're just to go
back to my very first pointabout surgery recovery.

(33:17):
We're really bad at forecastingthings like really bad.
Everybody wants to forecastlike what's the weather going to
be like tomorrow?
When is my knee going to bebetter?
When am I going to be able todo XYZ type of training activity
?
When is my FTP going to be 300watts?
Like we're trying to likeforecast, like we're trying to
like model.
We're not that good at it.

(33:39):
Let's just like face it.
All these are just wild,educated guesses and when you're
doing a long-range plan, you'refor that's what you're doing
you're forecasting something sothat something is going, or that
you're forecasting that theright type of training is going
to be x, six months down theline, eight months down the line
, nine months in a 12 monthsdown the line, and things like
that, and it doesn't always workout that way.
Sometimes you get it close,sometimes it's like your week

(34:00):
off here, your week off there,or whatever.
Um, so sometimes, not all thetime I've gone, I've found
myself, when I, especially whenI create I don't do this anymore
when I have created, um, ratherdetailed, long range plans,
that it kind of paints you intoa corner, so to speak, because
you set the athlete'sexpectation up that in August of

(34:22):
2025, they're going to be doingthis type of training and if
that doesn't materialize, forwhatever reason, the development
doesn't go as you expected,there's a training interruption
that you didn't anticipate.
Blah, blah, blah, blah blah.
You tend to want to still aimat that same, at that same
goalpost, even though that's notthe right goalpost to be aiming

(34:43):
at, because you created it ninemonths ago.
So, anyway, I think it's just agood like mainly for the
coaches out there, maybe not somuch for the athletes that you
have to realize that when you'recoming at, you really are.
When you're coming up withthese long range, with this long
range framework, this long-termframework, you have to really
think about your, your, yourcapacity and your accuracy on

(35:05):
how, how well you can actuallyforecast that out with so much
uncertainty.
That can go on.

Speaker 1 (35:12):
For sure.
But that's why I think I gotaway from it for so many years
Well, many years, a handful ofyears, of not building a lot of
annual plans for my athletes isbecause, like it didn't matter.
It didn't matter for them, likethey're especially masters in
amateur athletes.
Their life is just so messy.
That is like I knew where wewere going, I know how to get

(35:32):
them there, I know it's going toget a, you know, just a messy
bundle of everything.
So, like why put the stress onthem to communicate that aspect?
However, I've done an about facea little bit and say, okay, in
general, here's where we'regoing, and I spend, like I said,
not a ton of time on this butlike, give the framework so you
can cast the vision of what thislooks like.
And I'd say, for masters andamateur athletes, it's still

(35:55):
good to do because you need somegeneral guidance as you go.
But if you're the type ofperson that gets overly like
down in the weeds of, like Ineed to be my specialization
period at 302 watts in July towin, it's like nah, man, like
you missed it.

Speaker 2 (36:11):
I'll give you two.
Okay, I'll give you twoanecdotes to that.
First off, the most popularsection of my book and I get all
the data on this from thedigital version of the book, but
then also the inquiries that Iget through my website is the
one on long-range planning.
So athletes are more so thanthe workouts, more so than the

(36:32):
nutrition section, more so thanthe foot care section, whatever.
There's all these differentthings in the book, the most
popular one, the one that reallygets the most interest, is the
long-range planning piece of it.
So it tells you that people areinterested, right?
I also have this anecdote.
This just happened to merecently and this is more a
coaching pet peeve of mine thatwe can go over.
Maybe there's a learning lessonin it.

(36:53):
I did a consult with somebody anathlete that I, that I didn't
work with, that just kind ofreached out to me and wanted
some help on something and his,his, he was working with a coach
and all of his training was intraining peaks, and so I said,
okay, just connect me totraining peaks, let me go and
look at it and I'll tell youwhat kind of like what's going
on here, and I get into theconversation with the guy and I

(37:18):
asked him like what his coachathlete relationship was like,
and he said you know my the thecoach would quote unquote build
two weeks of workouts and then,when I got to every single
friday, there would be two moreweeks of workouts and then I get
to next friday, two more weeksof workouts would come through.
And I would always interjectthese like comments or provide
some sort of communication, butthere didn't seem to be any like

(37:42):
adjustment to the plan that wasactually going on.
And so I talked with him for awhile about this framework,
because I wanted to kind ofunderstand why the coach was
trying to do what.
What the coach was trying to do, and and I finally figured out
that the coach was leveragingthis feature in training peaks
that allows you to buildworkouts however far in the

(38:03):
future that you want to, yeah,and then just reveal them or
unhide them as you go along.
And so what the coach literallydid was built out nine months
of training in training peaks.
I don't know whether it was astatic training plan that got
put in there or whether youbuilt up a hand or whatever
that's neither here nor therebut built out nine or 10 months
worth of training and then everytwo weeks just unhid those two

(38:26):
weeks without any reference towhat was actually going on.
And so the sum total of this wasis there was this big mismatch
between the athlete's actualtrajectory and his projected
trajectory, that at a certainpoint, six months down, the
whole training thing kind ofcame into a collision, to where
he was like I cannot do thisvolume of work right.

(38:48):
And it all has to do with thispoor forecasting that we were
talking about earlier.
That coach could be the mostskilled coach in the world
Somebody like you and I.
You very rarely get thatforecasting element right.
If you and I were to like sitdown and say you know what I
think, take all of our athletes,take anything that you can

(39:08):
forecast the volume that theycan do, how much total training
they're going to have at acertain point in time, or
whatever we're not going to bewithin.
Maybe there's like 10% of theathletes that we get within 10%
of that guess, but for 90% ofthe athletes we're going to be
outside of that margin.
And that's actually a prettybig margin when, when you
actually think about it, like,if you say, ride 10 or 11 hours.

(39:31):
That's a big difference whenyou compound it, when you
compound it over time.
So I guess my my point withthat is is is just goes back to
this Like when you're, whenyou're doing these like long
range planning, get, get thethemes right, but try to steer
away from like the details,especially if you're trying to
put numbers on it, because it'sjust so, even for professionals,
it's just so, so difficult todo.

Speaker 1 (39:52):
Yeah, you know, this goes into like my big message of
really what inspired, like thispodcast which I remember having
a conversation with you and, asI'm sitting here and like
thinking about it, it might'vebeen I think it was a podcast
Cause you came to my house herein DC and do you remember when
you asked me you challenged me,you just laid it and do you

(40:12):
remember when you asked me, youchallenged me, you just laid it
what are your goals as a coach?
And I was like I don't have anygoals, Coop, and you just like
stop talking, Like you werespeechless for a minute which
doesn't happen very much, by theway and you're like I don't
believe you, I call BS on that,and I was like I don't really

(40:34):
Because.
And so, to frame this up, okay,like I've also heard, like Dean
and Tullis and all, when theywere talking about their goals
as a coach, they're like mygoals are my athletes goals?
Right, and some and somecoaches are, you know, I want to
win X, y, z with athlete one,two, three.
That never resonated with mebecause, like I get it my, my

(40:57):
goals are my athletes goals, butkind of not, because my job as
a coach is to help them reachtheir goals, and it's a very
different angle on things.
And so in that way, I would say, over the year I don't know how
many, two, three years ago wasface-to-face, so not during
COVID either.
Um, I refined that process.
So not during COVID either.
I refined that process.

(41:17):
And so what I tried to frame upis like what are my goals, how
do I do it?
And I nailed down to like fivethings and it doesn't really
change.
These big things don't change.
It's the refinement and theprocess behind it is what does
change.
And so those five things are doit better this year than last
year, learn each year, each week, every day, stay curious, stay

(41:43):
fit and coach athletes whoinspire me.
So in those ways, in those fivethings, I'd say that that if I
do those five things every yearand if I refine those, I'm
becoming a better coach and ifI'm becoming a better coach, my
athletes become better athletes.

(42:04):
And this all laces in nicely,because we didn't even talk
about this when you said try notto forecast, because I think
the reason I got away from likeI don't have any goals Coop is
because life is so messy and socrazy.
You think someone's just likegoing to crush everything and
then all of a sudden they get aconcussion, they crash, they get

(42:24):
mono.
Like you can't forecastanything in human beings.
All you can do is guide themalong the way and help them
adjust when shit goes sideways.
Yeah, and I think, as a coach,like if you learn to do that
well, you're a good coach.
If you're an athlete that cando that yourself, you're very

(42:46):
good at detaching and removingbias and guiding yourself, and
kudos to you for that.
But I haven't met anybody thatdoes that solely very well, that
solely very well.
So those are my so Coop fiveyears ago.

Speaker 2 (43:00):
Whatever, I've got five things five goals for you
and those are my goals and Iwanted to share that with you.
On this, I'm glad you went fromfrom zero to five and I'll uh,
I'll take, I'll take credit forall those next time we get
together for a whiskey, How'sthat?

Speaker 1 (43:12):
That sounds good.
You can put those in your booktoo and make billions of dollars
.

Speaker 2 (43:16):
Golly man I get don't talk to me about it, but I mean
, it's the, the part that'sreally interesting to me,
because we we both have had alot of influence, a lot of
really good influences, on ourcoaching careers and we wouldn't
be where we are today withoutthose, without those influences.
Those influences aren't alwayscongruent with each other.
They, they come into conflictmany times, and I think this

(43:40):
element that you mentioned thatI'm going to articulate slightly
differently.
But how personal do you takeyour athletes' goals and the
outcomes that actually happen asa byproduct of that?
Are they exceedingly personalto you?
Where, like as you mentionedearlier, your goals?
Are your athletes' goalsexceedingly personal to you?
Where, like as you mentionedearlier, your goals are your

(44:01):
athletes goals, or are they theathletes goals kind of in and to
themselves, and you're kind ofthe and you're the conduit to it
, and there's a myriad of thingsand there's a myriad of things
in between.
I don't profess to know like,what, the like, what the right
answer is.
However, I do think that it'simportant from an athlete's
perspective that they own them.
So so it can't be directed fromthe coach, it has to be

(44:23):
directed from the athlete.
So, in this whole goal settingprocess.
A lot of people kind of get ittwisted to where the coaches
come into the table saying, ohmy God, you're a great time
trialist.
Or oh my God, you'd be great atthis race.
Or oh my God, you'd be great atthat race, or whatever.
And I know, and I know a lot ofcoaches that do this, that have

(44:46):
a much more we'll just sayproactive approach with that
goal setting process.
I I don't take that.
I take much more of a react,reactionary, uh, uh more, much
more of a reactionary stancewith it, where I take a step
back, I let the athlete do 98%of the work and then I dress it
up with 2%, and then, of course,we'll do into architecture and
things like that later down theroad and the the.
In my opinion, the advantage tothat is is the investment piece

(45:07):
of it.
It's really coming from them,and so what you're challenging
them on is to make their goalsmeaningful to them and to own up
to the process of achievingthose things.
And when it comes almost whollyor 98% or 90% or whatever from
them, that aspect is that is is,is that much more powerful.

(45:30):
Now, I think that that'sdifferent than being personally
kind of attached to the outcomesand things like that, like you
can have.
You can have the personalattachment without having being
the director of where that goalsetting piece of it is, and I
very realistically have that.
I mean, I get super emotional onboth sides of the coin.

(45:52):
When I have athletes doexceedingly well, I get really
emotional about that, and when Ihave athletes that do really
poorly, I get exceedinglyemotional about that kind of on
the other side.
But that just comes from likecaring about the athlete, not
necessarily being likewholeheartedly invested in that
that's not the right way to putit.
Not being wholeheartedlyinvested in the goal setting

(46:12):
process right, I'm obviouslywholeheartedly invested in the
athlete, but it's their goals atthe end of the day.
And there are a lot of timeswhere athletes come up with
goals where I'm just like, okay,if that's meaningful to you,
great, let's go for it.
And I have to shut that voicedown a little bit to make sure

(46:32):
that the athlete owns it.
And I've learned that over thecourse of time that when you do
that, when you kind ofdepersonalize the front end of
it and then hyper-personalizethe end part of it and then the
process to get there, at least Ioperate better as a coach.
I feel more invested in anathlete feels more invested
because they've kind ofinitially created whatever

(46:54):
they're aiming at Yep, that'sexactly how I do it.

Speaker 1 (46:57):
And when it, when it comes to some of these
conversations of what are yourgoals for next year, they say
well, what do you, what do youthink I should do?
I'm like I can't tell youanything.
Like I, like I really this is atwo way street.
Like you have to drive thatship and then I'll drive the
rest.
But because, if that I don'tknow what the clinical term,

(47:20):
psychological term you tell me,cooper, like that internal
motivation of, if that likequantum energy, of whatever
drives us to run for 30 hours or, you know, ride for 30 hours or
train a thousand hours a year,500 hours a year, in order to
achieve X, y, z, no idea.

(47:40):
But but if that quantum energyis not internally stoked, they
ain't going to do anything.
So the the beautiful trainingprogram that you build or the
weird training program that theother person builds and unhides
every two weeks like it doesn'tmatter.

Speaker 2 (47:55):
Yeah.
Well, here's a different spinthat I'll put on that I think
people will resonate with.
Um.
A lot of people will ask a lotof people will start their goal
setting process with what am Igoing to be good at right?
What do you think I'm good at?
In an ultra marathon world,it's, it's by distance and
terrain.
Am I good at 50ks?
Am I good at mountainous stuff?
Am I good at flat stuff like,and?
And they think that they shouldpick races that they're good at,

(48:18):
and that's not necessarily true.
Maybe you can say at the eliteend of the spectrum, if you want
to beat the top 1% of people,you've got to put yourself in
the environment where you canaccentuate your strengths and at
least your weaknesses aren'taccentuated Right.
So if you're terrible at heatmanagement and you're an elite
athlete, the Western States 100would be a poor choice for an

(48:42):
apex race, unless you got muchbetter at that.
Now I tend to turn that on itshead and say well, listen, don't
like for the average master'sathlete out there, your
strengths and weaknesses arereally not that big and that far
apart.
Let's just be honest.
Like you're not winning bigraces and things like that, like
the best athletes have prettybig strengths and weaknesses

(49:04):
because they're really good atthose things.
So if you just take a normalendurance athlete, somebody who
wins a tour de France orwhatever they have a strength
within their aerobic capacityyou put them in the weight room
against the power lifter, that'sgoing to be their weakness,
right?
Normal people there thatdiscrepancy isn't so big because
the peak isn't so far away fromthe, from the average or from

(49:29):
the median or whatever.
So I don't think that's areally good way to orient it.
I think a better way to orientit is what is meaningful to you,
like just forecast out eventhough we're bad at forecasting
forecast out a year and youaccomplished X what would really
be meaningful to you.
And sometimes that's notlogistically possible you have
to qualify for a race or youneed three years of development,
not one year of development orwhatever.

(49:50):
But using that piece of it likewhat is really meaningful to
you as the basis of theconversation, not necessarily
what you're good at.
I think that's a goodorientation point for any
athlete, whether they're anelite athlete or a master's
athlete or an everyday athleteor whatever, because it kind of
gets back to the core of whythey're training so much Like
hey, I want to finish X, y, z inthis race.

(50:12):
That would be super meaningfulto me.
And a lot of times what they'lldo is it'll be like but I'm not
good at this Right, whichthere's some key to that race.
Or but I'm not a good climber,but I'm not good on technical
trainer, but whatever's like,okay, we can work on that.
That's what training's forRight.
And now that you've identifiedthis thing that's super
meaningful to you, let's a giveit enough time to bake.

(50:33):
You know, just like any goodrecipe, right?
Any good thing that you'remaking, you got to have enough
time to do it.
Let's give you enough time todo it.
And then to my earlier point ofwhat I was screwing up is like,
let's put the context around itcorrectly in terms of what is
the difficulty, how far are youaway from achieving that goal,
and things like that.
But I always start there.
I always start with what'smeaningful.
Let's try to work flush throughthat first and then bring

(50:57):
either that into reality or somesort of like next best, or some
deviation from that intoreality.
I've always found that to be areally helpful framework when
trying to think about thesethings and when coaches get that
question, what should I do next?
Redirect it back on the athletein that similar fashion.

Speaker 1 (51:14):
Yep, yeah, and that's kind of my.
Third point of my opening isthe inspiration.
It's that time of year to Ihave some athletes that
resonates with them.
What inspires you?
What's your dream?
Right, and when we roll off abig season, we take a break and
I say, yeah, we were just goingto go based mode and we don't

(51:36):
need to worry about goals oranything right now.
But when you're riding yourbike, when you're out there
running through the world, like,spend time dreaming of what you
want the next year to be.
You should let your mind gowild, right, and then we'll
figure out the details later.
Okay, but spending some timeand like thinking of, like, what
is meaningful to you, I thinkthat is that's probably the best
advice that we've talked about.

Speaker 2 (51:59):
Endurance.
Events are hard right, they'rehard to do, they're hard to
train for, and I always say thatlife's too short to chase
around things that are notmeaningful to you.
No-transcript had.

(52:27):
This with athletes is anathlete has an exceptional
result and they don't feelfulfilled because that result
wasn't meaningful to them,because they didn't set it up
from the get-go.
They either did it becausetheir buddies were doing it or
they felt peer pressure for itor whatever, and that's just a
big of a waste of time.
Is anything else right?
Because you have this likeemotional hole that you now have

(52:49):
to figure out what to do withwhen you've deployed so much of
your like, time and effortagainst it?
Um, that that that's hard, evenwhen you do win.
It's even worse when you don'twin and the outcomes and the
outcomes not good.
But yeah, chase things aroundthat are that are that are
meaningful to you.
You're not always going to getyour way, it's not always
perfect, but start with that andI think that that, and then, by

(53:10):
using that as kind of like thebasis to go from, you're always
going to set yourself up betterfor success.

(53:44):
No-transcript for it at all.
It's just a reformatted versionof annual planning or
long-range planning that, like alot, a lot of people use.
It's not proprietary to me,anything like that.
That's why it's freelyavailable to the public and I
take no credit.
But go there.
I mean, anybody can use it.

(54:04):
A cyclist can use it, a runnercan use it, a triathlete can use
it and I guarantee you've beenin the space for a long enough
period of time.
You've seen that formatsomewhere.

Speaker 1 (54:14):
Exactly, and it doesn't.
And that's my point.
It doesn't have to be fancy, Iwanted an example for everybody.
If, if, again, if you do likegetting organized, I wanted to
drop that in there and I'll.
I'll actually get the link,we'll put it on our show notes
so you can go into Applepodcasts or wherever you get the
podcast easily accessible there.
But that'll, that'll give youthe framework to start taking
the wild dreams and then pointit into some sort of action.

(54:36):
But if anything, it's just likespend some time on it.
As coaches, we don't spend aton of time on it because we've
done it so much.
But even as an athlete, ifyou've never done it before,
spend a little time now becauseit'll help you carry that
meaningful quantum energy downthe road.
When you question like, why thehell am I doing this, why am I

(54:59):
doing these intervals?
Why am I out here on the10-hour run?
It'll help bring some meaningto it all.
It'll help you answer that whyA hundred percent?
So, coop, anything else youwant to add to the New Year, New
Me Time Crunch Cyclist podcast.

Speaker 2 (55:21):
I know, in a lot of cases it looks like, you know,
like we all these like resultsand we've been doing this
forever and blah, blah blah.
But just to like your pointearlier of what your five goals
are, we still stay curious, westill try to get better, we
still try to stay fit.
You know, all those things thatwe're kind of passing on to our
athletes, we, we do take it asa, as a craft, so that's a
lifelong thing, you know.
You know, even beyond the 25years that I've been coaching,

(55:41):
almost 25 years that I've beencoaching, I think those are good
, uh, good lessons for everybodyin any endeavor.

Speaker 1 (55:48):
There we go.
Final word Jason Coop.
Thank you, coop, for uh joiningus today and uh pulling up your
the day after Christmas is whenwe're recorded.
So, uh, I hope you had a MerryChristmas and Santa brought all
those hiking poles and pureunadulterated gels your way.

Speaker 2 (56:07):
That's right, I think I was on the nice list this
year, so I had a pretty goodChristmas for sure.

Speaker 1 (56:13):
Awesome.
Well, thanks again, coop.
Happy New Year.
Happy New Year to you.
Thanks for joining us on theTime Crunch Cyclist podcast.
We hope you enjoyed the show.
If you want even moreactionable training advice, head
over to trainrightcom backslashnewsletter and subscribe to our
free weekly publication.

(56:33):
Each week you'll get in-depthtraining content that goes
beyond what we cover here on thepodcast.
That'll help you take yourtraining to the next level.
That's all for now.
Until next time, train hard,train smart, train right.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}New Year, New Perspectives on Achieving Meaningful Goals, with Coach Jason Koop