March 26, 2025 • 26 mins
OVERVIEW
So many athletes are focused on training in Zone 2, but they don't realize "Zone 2" means different things depending on which training system you use. There is a 3-Zone system, a 5-Zone system, a 7-Zone system, and even more! Two of the most popular are 3-Zones, championed by researcher Dr. Stephen Seiler, and a 7-Zone system used by CTS and many other coaching groups. In Episode 241 of "The Time-Crunched Cyclist Podcast", Coach Adam Pulford answers a listener question about how an athlete can compare or use more than one training zone methodology, and what "Zone 2" means in a 3-Zone system compared to a 7-Zone system.
TOPICS COVERED
- Why training zones were created
- 7-Zone system compared to a 3-Zone system
- Using aerobic decoupling to evaluate aerobic conditioning
- Practical advice for athletes trying to use training zones
ASK A QUESTION FOR A FUTURE PODCAST
LINKS/RESOURCES
- Complete Guide to Polarized Training with Dr. Stephen Seiler
- Zones Calculator Overview – TrainingPeaks Help Center
- Calculator Compare: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1aptCiqhjm6Fn7vG6P50AX54pW1P7XdVWx-lCARzNA5U/edit?gid=965771708#gid=965771708
- Episode #170 “Leveraging Lab and Field Testing to Create a Bigger Aerobic Engine” https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/trainright-podcast/id1494799053?i=1000634902218
- Aerobic Decoupling:
- Episode #169 Metabolic Testing:
- Tim Cusick:
HOST
Adam Pulford has been a CTS Coach for nearly two decades and holds a B.S. in Exercise Physiology. He's participated in and coached hundreds of athletes for endurance events all around the world.
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Instagram: @cts_trainright
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
From the team at CTS.
This is the Time Crunch Cyclistpodcast, our show dedicated to
answering your trainingquestions and providing
actionable advice to help youimprove your performance even if
you're strapped for time.
I'm your host, coach AdamPulford, and I'm one of the over
50 professional coaches whomake up the team at CTS.
In each episode, I draw on ourteam's collective knowledge,
(00:30):
other coaches and experts in thefield to provide you with the
practical ways to get the mostout of your training and
ultimately become the bestcyclist that you can be.
Now on to our show.
Now onto our show.
How do you take lab testresults and apply them to
(00:52):
real-world training and how doyou compare a three-zone system
to a seven-zone system?
We'll discuss this and more ontoday's episode.
I'm your host, coach AdamPulford, and today's questions
come from Andy, one of ourregular listeners here on the
Time Crunch Cyclist podcast.
Each of his questions dealswith comparing power and heart
(01:12):
rate in a seven zone system likethe ones we use at CTS or
Training Peaks, which have beendeveloped by Dr Andy Coggin, and
we're going to compare that toa three zone system, which you
would see in a polarizedtraining system popularized by
(01:33):
Dr Steven Seiler that three-zonesystem and information around
it is likely something you'llreceive after getting a lactate
threshold test done in alaboratory setting.
The seven-zone system is whatyou'd get when you do a cycling
field test and you estimate yourFTP, then calculate training
zones.
While these two systems aresimilar, they are not the same.
So let's read Andy's originalquestion and dive into some
answers and discussion pointsaround each.
(01:55):
Here's the original question.
I don't understand how fivezones for heart rate and seven
zones for power are supposed tomatch up.
Based on my metabolic test Ihave found that my fat max in
LT1 was much lower from a heartrate point of view than my FTP
and power at zone two.
Here's an example Metabolic fatmax indicate a heart rate no
(02:20):
higher than 125 beats per minute, which is about 150 to 175
watts on any given day.
I guess I'm a sugar burner tothe max.
According to a 20 minute fieldtest and FTP of 276 watts, top
of zone two would likely bearound 205 or 210, depending on
which way I round in a sevenzone model, the far bottom of
(02:43):
zone two and the end of zone oneis where it's suggested I keep
my zone two work If I get up tomore to the top end of zone two
I get far into zone three.
Heart rate Aerobically I'mdoing okay when riding in a
steady state either top orbottom of zone two.
I don't experience anythingunacceptable for heart rate
(03:07):
drift.
But please let me know yourthoughts, andy.
So there's a lot there, butlet's see if we can cover all of
it in a short time.
Let's first start withcomparing the different systems
with different zones.
So when comparing these twozones, I think it's important to
begin with, why do we havezones to begin with?
(03:28):
Why were they created?
So, whether it is Coggin,seiler or some laboratory test,
the main important thing torealize is training zones were
created so that we could be moredescriptive rather than
prescriptive, so that we coulddescribe what was going on, the
sensations associated with thedata in training, versus wanting
(03:52):
a coach just to prescribe aninterval workout, which is kind
of what we do today.
But let's not lose sight ofthat descriptive process in
training because that helps usto organize and communicate with
same language what we're tryingto do in a training program.
For more on this, check out mypodcast with Coach Tim Cusick,
(04:12):
which is all the way back atepisode number eight, where we
cover all the details on thisand more, including Coggin's
original philosophy behind that,behind that.
So, in these two differentmodels though, where we're
talking about that, like I said,that typical training peaks or
CTS seven zone model, comparedto the three zone model of like
(04:37):
an LT1 and LT2, when we'retrying to compare and make some
sense out of these two modelswith kind of two different types
of zones.
First of all, if you're avisual learner like myself, I
think it's really important tohave a visual.
So I'm going to share a screenand what we're going to look at
(05:01):
is we're going to look at thatseven zone model, which is on
the left-hand side, compared tothe three zone model which is
over here on the right-hand side, and then I also have some rate
of perceived effort rankingsystems on here as well.
Now, for those who are justlistening on the podcast and not
on YouTube for the visual, Iwill do my best to describe what
(05:21):
is going on, but in order to dothat, I think it's very
important to reiterate thatthese are similar but they are
not the same.
The hinge points are indeedthreshold, some sort of
threshold, ftp or lactatethreshold or OBLA, however you
want to kind of describe thatthreshold phenomenon.
(05:43):
But those are the hinge points.
Now the final thread to weavethrough all of this is RPE, the
rate of perceived effort, scaleof one to 10, one being super
easy, 10 being a maximum effort.
That is the common language.
I believe that links the twosystems together.
(06:05):
Now a couple of things here.
First, on a seven zone system,because that level six and level
seven are so high power inindividual nature, typically
we're going to be comparingprobably up to level five or
level six in that seven zonesystem when we're comparing it
(06:25):
over here to the three zonesystem.
Okay, so now I have all theselayered up, starting with a
perceived effort of one, goingall the way up to level 10.
What we're going to do is we'regoing to go through recovery on
level one, endurance on leveltwo or zone two, tempo on level
three, lactate threshold levelfour, vo2 max on level five and
(06:50):
anaerobic capacity on level six.
Now what's confusing for mostpeople is that the three zone
system really encapsulates allof zone one, all of zone two and
some of zone three.
So it's staying aerobic innature until we get up to that
hinge point of threshold whichis zone four in a seven zone
(07:14):
system, but that's all the way,kind of to the upper end of the
zone two for the three zonemodel.
I think, visually, folks, youneed to hop on, you need to hop
on YouTube to get a fulldescriptor of what's going on
here, because the visual willhelp a lot.
As I'm even describing this toyou, I understand how
complicated it can be and as acoach and physiologist, it's
(07:38):
taken years for us, I would say,to evolve to the point of being
able to describe this very well, at least for my own pea brain
sake.
So the visual really helps inthat way.
But to you, andy, in particularthis one, and don't care about
all the other numbers that yousee here, because it's really
the levels that are going on theleft-hand side for the seven
(07:59):
zone model, the levels that aregoing on for the three zone
model and the rate of perceivedeffort right here down the
middle.
Now I think that this is thebest way to compare apples to
apples, or these two similar butnot same training zones, and
start to make sense of them all.
Remember the hinge point is thethreshold which was just coming
(08:21):
here right around zone four.
Now for a lot more detail onthis.
I did a podcast with coach ReneeEastman and that was number 170
, entitled leveraging labaging,lab and Field Testing to Create
a Bigger Aerobic Engine.
So we talk a lot aboutcomparing these two models, how
you can bridge the gap and applyit to your training, and really
(08:43):
in this episode I'm going totake specifically I'm going to
take some of Andy's data here asbest I can and extrapolate it
to these systems.
So now, if you're on YouTube,what I'm doing is I'm going to
pull up something very similarto what I was doing just before,
and the difference here is I'vegot the two zones, uh, along
(09:09):
with a bunch of other numbersright, all the different
percentages of FTP or VO2 max asthey correlate to the seven
zone system on the left, thethree zone system on the right
and, in particular, now I've gotAndy's FTP of what he said he
tested at in there.
Okay, we're not going to gothrough line item by line item
(09:31):
and describe everything, but I'mgoing to do my best to bring
some reality and somecomparative sense to what Andy
was asking about for his ownindividual training trainer road
(09:56):
, because this is where I'vealways had found this resource
before and I made a copy and Iand I actually use a lot of this
data for my athletes when theygo in and get a lab test and I
teach them and compare kind ofapples to apples or, you know,
power to power or zone to zone,as we're deploying in order to
create in a training program forthem.
To orient you a little bit,this chart in particular takes
(10:18):
that seven zone system, justgoes up to five.
So VO2 max I think that's thebest way to describe and compare
the three zone system becauseabove that I get very
individualized with my athletesin how we're going to do
neuromuscular power training orfunctional reserve capacity.
I think in some sense it's verysimple because when you're at
(10:40):
that level you say go hard, maxis max, go for it for the
specific power duration.
On the other hand, when you'retracking it or you're accurately
trying to prescribe a maxeffort as opposed to just
putting in 400% of FTP, whichsome people may be able to do, I
mean that's super hard for asprint, right?
(11:01):
Some people are going to getcrushed at 290.
So for them to see that big ofa number and not even come close
to it, psychologically, that'skind of a hindrance there.
So I think as a coach you wantto be sensitive to that and at
least get a ballpark when itcomes to some of that high
intensity training.
However, it's very specific.
(11:21):
The rate of perceived effort ishigh, the power is specific, so
we're not going to talk aboutthat.
Simplify, simplify, simplify.
Let's go and compare the sevenzone system to the three.
Like I said, the hinge pointsare the threshold and for Andy,
he was talking about an FTP of276 Watts.
(11:42):
Right there you see, it's a topend of level four or zone four
in the seven zone model.
With the three zone model it'sup here at the top of level two.
Now I want to remind Andy andeverybody here that lab test
results can and usually differthan a field test result.
(12:04):
They're testing two differentthings.
In the lab You're testinglactate threshold versus out in
a field test you're testingfunctional threshold, power and
you're estimating that Lactatethreshold or LT2 in that lab
result is usually going tocorrelate better with the low
end of zone four in a seven zonemodel, more like a 60 minute
(12:26):
power duration, whereas FTPwould be at the higher end of
the zone for power, somethingmore like a 30 to 40 minute time
trial.
And here.
You can see on the visual thatin the seven zone model on the
left-hand side that FTP that youpump in there at 276 watts for
Andy that's at the middle tohigh end of it, but there's
(12:49):
another notch above that at 290watts.
So that's what I'm talkingabout.
The high end is more like theFTP.
The estimated is that 276,roughly 95% or 92% or
thereabouts and that's whatwe're going to use to make the
training zones.
Now I don't have Andy's labtest he didn't share that with
me, nor do I really need to butI'm guessing lab test results
(13:10):
were somewhere around 250 or 260for the point of lactate
threshold.
And that's where we can see onthe left-hand side in the seven
zone model the low end of zonefour is right around that 250
mark.
Now, because a lot of Andy'squestioning was around that fat
max or zone two training, I'llremind everybody recall in my
podcast with Renee, which gotpretty popular, it was the one
about being a sugar burner ornot.
I mean, I'll say I'll remindeverybody we're calling my
(13:32):
podcast with Renee, which it gotpretty popular.
It was the one about being asugar burner or not.
It's episode number 169.
And Andy, you made a referenceto it.
Remember that you you don't knowif you're a sugar burner or not
unless you actually test it.
So what you could do is,wherever you got the lab test
done, is go back and see if theyhave that data to see if you're
(13:54):
actually burning morecarbohydrate at a low intensity,
like below LT1 versus fatoxidation.
So first of all, that would bethe way to do it.
If you have the data and youdon't have access to it, I
suggest scheduling a consultwith coach Renee so she can help
you decipher a lot of thisinformation, and we do that more
(14:15):
on that later.
But just remember you actuallyneed to test that.
Don't just self-determine itfor yourself based on a podcast
that you heard about it.
Okay, in that, in that episodewe do advise that if you think
you are just to be sure that youare, you can do a training
block where you ride at that lowzone two and metabolically
train yourself so that you areburning more fat as a fuel
(14:39):
source for a time period, butthen you move on in your
training.
Okay, listen to that podcast alittle bit more for all the
details.
Now, in there we discuss thatfat max is usually on the low
end or the easier end of zonetwo, endurance work for most
people, and if your goal is toburn fat as a fuel source or
(14:59):
train your metabolism to do that, then you should spend more
time training closer to thatlower end of zone two, which is
55 to 65%, as everyone can seewatching the YouTube right now.
But you can see the top end ofzone two is all the way up there
around 70 or 75%.
Now, when you're training lowend or high end, you're still
(15:21):
getting.
You're still getting benefitsof endurance training.
But there may be you know theremay be those subtle differences
there, especially if you startto see some of that heart rate
drift, as Andy said, which wenormally talk about as aerobic
decoupling.
But please hear me on this oneFat max is not the only thing to
train in your life.
(15:41):
At some point, people, we needto move beyond zone two and do
some harder work.
Okay, and one of the ways thatwe can get there is using a
metric called aerobic decoupling.
So let's talk about that for aminute.
And you said that aerobically,I think I'm fine.
(16:02):
But then you also talked abouthow, if you hang out at the
upper end of zone two, the heartrate drifts into zone three,
Okay.
And then then you kind of wentback on that a little bit saying
you don't see a whole lot ofcardiac drift.
So it was a little confusing tome.
But I think in some sense, ifyou're hanging out at the upper
(16:23):
end of zone two power and youare seeing your heart rate go up
into zone three, I would lookat aerobic decoupling in
particular.
We used to call this, and stilldo, heart rate drift and all
that means is you keep the powerof the same Does a heart rate
drift up?
From an artistic standpoint andcoaching standpoint, I like
that because there's so muchnuance here.
I'll get to that here in aminute.
But aerobic decoupling,training peaks, uh, coggin Friel
(16:46):
have all kind of helped betterdetermine how that drift may
occur and what to do if you seethat drift occur, and we call
that aerobic decoupling.
If you want more details onthis, I'll link to this in our
show notes a great article fromTraining Peaks on how to use
aerobic decoupling.
But essentially this toolcompares your efficiency factor,
(17:08):
or EF, for the first half of aninterval section or a section
of your ride to the second halfof it and if this comparison is
less than 5%, you're notdecoupling and you're good to go
and therefore you couldconclude that you are
aerobically fit.
However, if it's over 5%, anddefinitely over 10%, you could
(17:30):
be aerobically not fit.
If you see aerobic decouplingoccur, then you need to spend
some more time specificallytraining the aerobic system in
different ways.
But there's a ton of nuancehere.
First of all, the efforts needto be 20 minutes or longer for
an effort.
They need to be steady and notsurgy, and which intensity you
(17:52):
use kind of depends a bit on thestyle of the rider and what
you're actually wanting to testor train.
But in some past episodes I dotalk about how time crunched
athletes aiming for the upperend of zone two so that's at 70
to 75% of FTP for one hour is agood measurement system to test
(18:13):
that aerobic decoupling, todetermine how aerobically fit
you are.
More on this in a minute.
So let's get into some practicaladvice on how to pull all this
together.
Now.
This practical advice appliesto everybody and I've got some
specific stuff to Andy.
First, you want to organizeyour training and decide what
you're actually trying to dowith your training.
(18:35):
So, for example, is the workoutthat you're doing meant to burn
fat or build aerobic capacity?
Okay, if you're trying to justburn fat, sure, hang on the low
end of that zone to 55 to 60,65% of FTP and just ride easy.
But if your workout is meant toimprove tolerance at lactate
(18:58):
threshold or high lactate levelsor extend the time that you can
hold FTP power, you have todecide what you're trying to do.
My opinion, especially for atime crunched athlete, is very
challenging to do both in thesame workout.
That's going to last 90 minutes.
In fact I'm going to say it'snot going to happen.
So you just have to decide whatthe goal of your actual
(19:19):
training is, then organizeyourself, build the right
workout and then get it done Now.
Secondly and this appliesspecifically to Andy here, but
also anyone listening take it orleave it, but it sounds like
you just need to start addingmore intensity to your training
(19:39):
program without knowing moreabout you and your goals and the
actual lab test information orthe training history.
What you described seems likeyou've done some base training,
okay, and you want to improveyour performance, which could be
anything from just increasingFTP right To holding FTP for
longer.
Maybe you have some race goals,that kind of thing.
(20:00):
Here's my advice.
Here's a three to four weektraining program.
Tuesdays and Thursdaysthreshold work For the first
week, three by 10.
Threshold at zone four, whichis 91 to 105% of FTP, with four
to five minutes recoveringbetween zone four, which is 91
to 105% of FTP, with four tofive minutes recovering between.
On the second and third week ofthat just talking about Tuesday
and Thursday only right now youwant to progress the Tuesday
(20:27):
workout to three by 12 and thentwo by 20 respectively.
Keep it to zone four and yourrecovery periods should only be
five to six minutes at most.
Be five to six minutes at most.
Now keep Thursday at three by10.
What I, what I my advice thereis keep working the same power
duration and see what the heartrate does over time compared to
that first week.
There'll be some really funthings to see there.
In particular, what we want todo is keep the power the same
(20:50):
and have that heart rate comedown for each interval, or
intensify the power and have theheart rate remain the same, or
interval or intensify the powerand have the heart rate remain
the same or come down over time.
Those are two adaptations thatyou should see when done
properly.
Okay, so that's just Tuesdayand Thursday.
Wednesdays now keep that easy.
One hour at the 55 to 65% ofFTP or zone two.
(21:11):
Mondays and Fridays are yourrest day FTP or zone two.
Mondays and Fridays are yourrest day.
Saturday here's this aerobicdecoupling kind of tester
workout that you're also doingto build aerobic capacity.
What I would do is warm up for10 to 15 minutes of easy
endurance and then take fiveminutes where you progress up to
75% of FTP, which is the topend of your zone two training.
(21:33):
What you want to do is 60minutes at 70 to 75% of FTP, so
very top end of zone two, andthen you cool down for five to
10 minutes.
Okay, very simple workout.
It's hard, it's challenging,you have to pace.
If you've never done 60 minutes, uh, specifically for mentally,
it's kind of a challenge, butthat's a great workout.
(21:54):
Do that every Saturday forthree weeks in a row.
See what you get.
Sunday now, this is yourendurance ride, your free ride.
You're not constrained, nostructure to it.
Aim for an hour and a half atminimum, I would say for most
time crunched athletes.
That'd be a great combination.
Saturday, sunday sort ofback-to-back workouts and, if
you're progressing the long rideor deepening that long ride,
(22:17):
ride up to three hours and it'snot going to necessarily hurt
you if you take that Monday restday and then you come back to
some threshold work on Tuesday.
So that's what I would dospecifically for you, andy, and
for most people who are weavinginto their first round of
threshold training.
Now, third, on this practicaladvice knowing what you want out
(22:39):
of your training will help youunderstand how to use these
zones whether it's seven zone,three zone, 17 zone if that
exists, I don't know.
But again, these zones werecreated to help describe the
training a little bit better, tohelp us be organized about it,
to help our brains organize whatwe're going to do and then map
it out and then actually get itdone.
(23:00):
Zones to read more about thisuse this podcast.
Use the podcast references tothe other interviews that I've
done to help just understand thesystem.
(23:20):
Once you understand the system,then it will make a heck of a
lot more sense of how thesesystems were designed in order
to get the results that you want.
Okay, and as opposed to say,just doing threshold work or
just doing a polarized program,because that's what the pros are
doing Learning how somethingworks is a far better will give
(23:45):
you a far better outcome ratherthan just doing something
because it worked for somebodyelse.
Okay, that's like, if there'sanything that sinks in from this
podcast, please let that onesink in, all right.
So final words here to youspecifically, andy.
I hope all this helps.
If not, like I said, Irecommend you booking a consult
with coach Renee Eastman.
(24:06):
You can do that as well as withany of our coaches.
Head over to trainrightcom andgo to coaches and you can book a
consult there to talk aboutwhatever you want.
Um, renee is awesome abouttaking lab results from any lab
across the world, actually, and,uh, just helping individualize
the advice and decipher some ofthat information a little bit
(24:26):
more.
So she's a wizard at takingthat, uh, all the numbers and
applying it individually to you.
So just know that that's anoption to you, andy.
If this podcast doesn't answeryour question directly, now to
all of the listeners right now,I hope that this comparison,
which I still have up on thescreen, take a screenshot of it
or check out our show notes fora link to the actual spreadsheet
(24:49):
itself.
Again, I got it from TrainerRoad.
There's a lot of nuance in thiswhole worksheet, but if you're
a detail-oriented person, youwill absolutely love it.
Model and, more specifically,has helped you learn how to
identify when it's time to startintensifying your training,
(25:16):
moving beyond just zone two oraerobic training as the primary
focus in your training program.
That's it.
That's our show for today.
If you liked what you heard,please share it with a friend or
your training partner, and ifyou have any questions of your
own, ask me by heading over totrain rightcom backslash podcast
and click on ask a trainingquestion.
(25:36):
Those get sent directly to meand my team at CTS and we'll do
our best to answer it on afuture episode.
Thanks again for listening andwe'll be back next week to share
more actionable training adviceto every single one of you.
Thanks for joining us on thetime crunch cyclist podcast.
We hope you enjoyed the show.
If you want even moreactionable training advice, head
(25:58):
over to trainrightcom backslashnewsletter and subscribe to our
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Each week you'll get in-depthtraining content that goes
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That'll help you take yourtraining to the next level.
That's all for now.
Until next time, train hard,train smart, train right.
From the team at CTS.
This is the Time Crunch Cyclistpodcast, our show dedicated to
answering your trainingquestions and providing
actionable advice to help youimprove your performance even if
you're strapped for time.
I'm your host, coach AdamPulford, and I'm one of the over
50 professional coaches whomake up the team at CTS.
In each episode, I draw on ourteam's collective knowledge,
(00:30):
other coaches and experts in thefield to provide you with the
practical ways to get the mostout of your training and
ultimately become the bestcyclist that you can be.
Now on to our show.
Now onto our show.
How do you take lab testresults and apply them to
(00:52):
real-world training and how doyou compare a three-zone system
to a seven-zone system?
We'll discuss this and more ontoday's episode.
I'm your host, coach AdamPulford, and today's questions
come from Andy, one of ourregular listeners here on the
Time Crunch Cyclist podcast.
Each of his questions dealswith comparing power and heart
(01:12):
rate in a seven zone system likethe ones we use at CTS or
Training Peaks, which have beendeveloped by Dr Andy Coggin, and
we're going to compare that toa three zone system, which you
would see in a polarizedtraining system popularized by
(01:33):
Dr Steven Seiler that three-zonesystem and information around
it is likely something you'llreceive after getting a lactate
threshold test done in alaboratory setting.
The seven-zone system is whatyou'd get when you do a cycling
field test and you estimate yourFTP, then calculate training
zones.
While these two systems aresimilar, they are not the same.
So let's read Andy's originalquestion and dive into some
answers and discussion pointsaround each.
(01:55):
Here's the original question.
I don't understand how fivezones for heart rate and seven
zones for power are supposed tomatch up.
Based on my metabolic test Ihave found that my fat max in
LT1 was much lower from a heartrate point of view than my FTP
and power at zone two.
Here's an example Metabolic fatmax indicate a heart rate no
(02:20):
higher than 125 beats per minute, which is about 150 to 175
watts on any given day.
I guess I'm a sugar burner tothe max.
According to a 20 minute fieldtest and FTP of 276 watts, top
of zone two would likely bearound 205 or 210, depending on
which way I round in a sevenzone model, the far bottom of
(02:43):
zone two and the end of zone oneis where it's suggested I keep
my zone two work If I get up tomore to the top end of zone two
I get far into zone three.
Heart rate Aerobically I'mdoing okay when riding in a
steady state either top orbottom of zone two.
I don't experience anythingunacceptable for heart rate
(03:07):
drift.
But please let me know yourthoughts, andy.
So there's a lot there, butlet's see if we can cover all of
it in a short time.
Let's first start withcomparing the different systems
with different zones.
So when comparing these twozones, I think it's important to
begin with, why do we havezones to begin with?
(03:28):
Why were they created?
So, whether it is Coggin,seiler or some laboratory test,
the main important thing torealize is training zones were
created so that we could be moredescriptive rather than
prescriptive, so that we coulddescribe what was going on, the
sensations associated with thedata in training, versus wanting
(03:52):
a coach just to prescribe aninterval workout, which is kind
of what we do today.
But let's not lose sight ofthat descriptive process in
training because that helps usto organize and communicate with
same language what we're tryingto do in a training program.
For more on this, check out mypodcast with Coach Tim Cusick,
(04:12):
which is all the way back atepisode number eight, where we
cover all the details on thisand more, including Coggin's
original philosophy behind that,behind that.
So, in these two differentmodels though, where we're
talking about that, like I said,that typical training peaks or
CTS seven zone model, comparedto the three zone model of like
(04:37):
an LT1 and LT2, when we'retrying to compare and make some
sense out of these two modelswith kind of two different types
of zones.
First of all, if you're avisual learner like myself, I
think it's really important tohave a visual.
So I'm going to share a screenand what we're going to look at
(05:01):
is we're going to look at thatseven zone model, which is on
the left-hand side, compared tothe three zone model which is
over here on the right-hand side, and then I also have some rate
of perceived effort rankingsystems on here as well.
Now, for those who are justlistening on the podcast and not
on YouTube for the visual, Iwill do my best to describe what
(05:21):
is going on, but in order to dothat, I think it's very
important to reiterate thatthese are similar but they are
not the same.
The hinge points are indeedthreshold, some sort of
threshold, ftp or lactatethreshold or OBLA, however you
want to kind of describe thatthreshold phenomenon.
(05:43):
But those are the hinge points.
Now the final thread to weavethrough all of this is RPE, the
rate of perceived effort, scaleof one to 10, one being super
easy, 10 being a maximum effort.
That is the common language.
I believe that links the twosystems together.
(06:05):
Now a couple of things here.
First, on a seven zone system,because that level six and level
seven are so high power inindividual nature, typically
we're going to be comparingprobably up to level five or
level six in that seven zonesystem when we're comparing it
(06:25):
over here to the three zonesystem.
Okay, so now I have all theselayered up, starting with a
perceived effort of one, goingall the way up to level 10.
What we're going to do is we'regoing to go through recovery on
level one, endurance on leveltwo or zone two, tempo on level
three, lactate threshold levelfour, vo2 max on level five and
(06:50):
anaerobic capacity on level six.
Now what's confusing for mostpeople is that the three zone
system really encapsulates allof zone one, all of zone two and
some of zone three.
So it's staying aerobic innature until we get up to that
hinge point of threshold whichis zone four in a seven zone
(07:14):
system, but that's all the way,kind of to the upper end of the
zone two for the three zonemodel.
I think, visually, folks, youneed to hop on, you need to hop
on YouTube to get a fulldescriptor of what's going on
here, because the visual willhelp a lot.
As I'm even describing this toyou, I understand how
complicated it can be and as acoach and physiologist, it's
(07:38):
taken years for us, I would say,to evolve to the point of being
able to describe this very well, at least for my own pea brain
sake.
So the visual really helps inthat way.
But to you, andy, in particularthis one, and don't care about
all the other numbers that yousee here, because it's really
the levels that are going on theleft-hand side for the seven
(07:59):
zone model, the levels that aregoing on for the three zone
model and the rate of perceivedeffort right here down the
middle.
Now I think that this is thebest way to compare apples to
apples, or these two similar butnot same training zones, and
start to make sense of them all.
Remember the hinge point is thethreshold which was just coming
(08:21):
here right around zone four.
Now for a lot more detail onthis.
I did a podcast with coach ReneeEastman and that was number 170
, entitled leveraging labaging,lab and Field Testing to Create
a Bigger Aerobic Engine.
So we talk a lot aboutcomparing these two models, how
you can bridge the gap and applyit to your training, and really
(08:43):
in this episode I'm going totake specifically I'm going to
take some of Andy's data here asbest I can and extrapolate it
to these systems.
So now, if you're on YouTube,what I'm doing is I'm going to
pull up something very similarto what I was doing just before,
and the difference here is I'vegot the two zones, uh, along
(09:09):
with a bunch of other numbersright, all the different
percentages of FTP or VO2 max asthey correlate to the seven
zone system on the left, thethree zone system on the right
and, in particular, now I've gotAndy's FTP of what he said he
tested at in there.
Okay, we're not going to gothrough line item by line item
(09:31):
and describe everything, but I'mgoing to do my best to bring
some reality and somecomparative sense to what Andy
was asking about for his ownindividual training trainer road
(09:56):
, because this is where I'vealways had found this resource
before and I made a copy and Iand I actually use a lot of this
data for my athletes when theygo in and get a lab test and I
teach them and compare kind ofapples to apples or, you know,
power to power or zone to zone,as we're deploying in order to
create in a training program forthem.
To orient you a little bit,this chart in particular takes
(10:18):
that seven zone system, justgoes up to five.
So VO2 max I think that's thebest way to describe and compare
the three zone system becauseabove that I get very
individualized with my athletesin how we're going to do
neuromuscular power training orfunctional reserve capacity.
I think in some sense it's verysimple because when you're at
(10:40):
that level you say go hard, maxis max, go for it for the
specific power duration.
On the other hand, when you'retracking it or you're accurately
trying to prescribe a maxeffort as opposed to just
putting in 400% of FTP, whichsome people may be able to do, I
mean that's super hard for asprint, right?
(11:01):
Some people are going to getcrushed at 290.
So for them to see that big ofa number and not even come close
to it, psychologically, that'skind of a hindrance there.
So I think as a coach you wantto be sensitive to that and at
least get a ballpark when itcomes to some of that high
intensity training.
However, it's very specific.
(11:21):
The rate of perceived effort ishigh, the power is specific, so
we're not going to talk aboutthat.
Simplify, simplify, simplify.
Let's go and compare the sevenzone system to the three.
Like I said, the hinge pointsare the threshold and for Andy,
he was talking about an FTP of276 Watts.
(11:42):
Right there you see, it's a topend of level four or zone four
in the seven zone model.
With the three zone model it'sup here at the top of level two.
Now I want to remind Andy andeverybody here that lab test
results can and usually differthan a field test result.
(12:04):
They're testing two differentthings.
In the lab You're testinglactate threshold versus out in
a field test you're testingfunctional threshold, power and
you're estimating that Lactatethreshold or LT2 in that lab
result is usually going tocorrelate better with the low
end of zone four in a seven zonemodel, more like a 60 minute
(12:26):
power duration, whereas FTPwould be at the higher end of
the zone for power, somethingmore like a 30 to 40 minute time
trial.
And here.
You can see on the visual thatin the seven zone model on the
left-hand side that FTP that youpump in there at 276 watts for
Andy that's at the middle tohigh end of it, but there's
(12:49):
another notch above that at 290watts.
So that's what I'm talkingabout.
The high end is more like theFTP.
The estimated is that 276,roughly 95% or 92% or
thereabouts and that's whatwe're going to use to make the
training zones.
Now I don't have Andy's labtest he didn't share that with
me, nor do I really need to butI'm guessing lab test results
(13:10):
were somewhere around 250 or 260for the point of lactate
threshold.
And that's where we can see onthe left-hand side in the seven
zone model the low end of zonefour is right around that 250
mark.
Now, because a lot of Andy'squestioning was around that fat
max or zone two training, I'llremind everybody recall in my
podcast with Renee, which gotpretty popular, it was the one
about being a sugar burner ornot.
I mean, I'll say I'll remindeverybody we're calling my
(13:32):
podcast with Renee, which it gotpretty popular.
It was the one about being asugar burner or not.
It's episode number 169.
And Andy, you made a referenceto it.
Remember that you you don't knowif you're a sugar burner or not
unless you actually test it.
So what you could do is,wherever you got the lab test
done, is go back and see if theyhave that data to see if you're
(13:54):
actually burning morecarbohydrate at a low intensity,
like below LT1 versus fatoxidation.
So first of all, that would bethe way to do it.
If you have the data and youdon't have access to it, I
suggest scheduling a consultwith coach Renee so she can help
you decipher a lot of thisinformation, and we do that more
(14:15):
on that later.
But just remember you actuallyneed to test that.
Don't just self-determine itfor yourself based on a podcast
that you heard about it.
Okay, in that, in that episodewe do advise that if you think
you are just to be sure that youare, you can do a training
block where you ride at that lowzone two and metabolically
train yourself so that you areburning more fat as a fuel
(14:39):
source for a time period, butthen you move on in your
training.
Okay, listen to that podcast alittle bit more for all the
details.
Now, in there we discuss thatfat max is usually on the low
end or the easier end of zonetwo, endurance work for most
people, and if your goal is toburn fat as a fuel source or
(14:59):
train your metabolism to do that, then you should spend more
time training closer to thatlower end of zone two, which is
55 to 65%, as everyone can seewatching the YouTube right now.
But you can see the top end ofzone two is all the way up there
around 70 or 75%.
Now, when you're training lowend or high end, you're still
(15:21):
getting.
You're still getting benefitsof endurance training.
But there may be you know theremay be those subtle differences
there, especially if you startto see some of that heart rate
drift, as Andy said, which wenormally talk about as aerobic
decoupling.
But please hear me on this oneFat max is not the only thing to
train in your life.
(15:41):
At some point, people, we needto move beyond zone two and do
some harder work.
Okay, and one of the ways thatwe can get there is using a
metric called aerobic decoupling.
So let's talk about that for aminute.
And you said that aerobically,I think I'm fine.
(16:02):
But then you also talked abouthow, if you hang out at the
upper end of zone two, the heartrate drifts into zone three,
Okay.
And then then you kind of wentback on that a little bit saying
you don't see a whole lot ofcardiac drift.
So it was a little confusing tome.
But I think in some sense, ifyou're hanging out at the upper
(16:23):
end of zone two power and youare seeing your heart rate go up
into zone three, I would lookat aerobic decoupling in
particular.
We used to call this, and stilldo, heart rate drift and all
that means is you keep the powerof the same Does a heart rate
drift up?
From an artistic standpoint andcoaching standpoint, I like
that because there's so muchnuance here.
I'll get to that here in aminute.
But aerobic decoupling,training peaks, uh, coggin Friel
(16:46):
have all kind of helped betterdetermine how that drift may
occur and what to do if you seethat drift occur, and we call
that aerobic decoupling.
If you want more details onthis, I'll link to this in our
show notes a great article fromTraining Peaks on how to use
aerobic decoupling.
But essentially this toolcompares your efficiency factor,
(17:08):
or EF, for the first half of aninterval section or a section
of your ride to the second halfof it and if this comparison is
less than 5%, you're notdecoupling and you're good to go
and therefore you couldconclude that you are
aerobically fit.
However, if it's over 5%, anddefinitely over 10%, you could
(17:30):
be aerobically not fit.
If you see aerobic decouplingoccur, then you need to spend
some more time specificallytraining the aerobic system in
different ways.
But there's a ton of nuancehere.
First of all, the efforts needto be 20 minutes or longer for
an effort.
They need to be steady and notsurgy, and which intensity you
(17:52):
use kind of depends a bit on thestyle of the rider and what
you're actually wanting to testor train.
But in some past episodes I dotalk about how time crunched
athletes aiming for the upperend of zone two so that's at 70
to 75% of FTP for one hour is agood measurement system to test
(18:13):
that aerobic decoupling, todetermine how aerobically fit
you are.
More on this in a minute.
So let's get into some practicaladvice on how to pull all this
together.
Now.
This practical advice appliesto everybody and I've got some
specific stuff to Andy.
First, you want to organizeyour training and decide what
you're actually trying to dowith your training.
(18:35):
So, for example, is the workoutthat you're doing meant to burn
fat or build aerobic capacity?
Okay, if you're trying to justburn fat, sure, hang on the low
end of that zone to 55 to 60,65% of FTP and just ride easy.
But if your workout is meant toimprove tolerance at lactate
(18:58):
threshold or high lactate levelsor extend the time that you can
hold FTP power, you have todecide what you're trying to do.
My opinion, especially for atime crunched athlete, is very
challenging to do both in thesame workout.
That's going to last 90 minutes.
In fact I'm going to say it'snot going to happen.
So you just have to decide whatthe goal of your actual
(19:19):
training is, then organizeyourself, build the right
workout and then get it done Now.
Secondly and this appliesspecifically to Andy here, but
also anyone listening take it orleave it, but it sounds like
you just need to start addingmore intensity to your training
(19:39):
program without knowing moreabout you and your goals and the
actual lab test information orthe training history.
What you described seems likeyou've done some base training,
okay, and you want to improveyour performance, which could be
anything from just increasingFTP right To holding FTP for
longer.
Maybe you have some race goals,that kind of thing.
(20:00):
Here's my advice.
Here's a three to four weektraining program.
Tuesdays and Thursdaysthreshold work For the first
week, three by 10.
Threshold at zone four, whichis 91 to 105% of FTP, with four
to five minutes recoveringbetween zone four, which is 91
to 105% of FTP, with four tofive minutes recovering between.
On the second and third week ofthat just talking about Tuesday
and Thursday only right now youwant to progress the Tuesday
(20:27):
workout to three by 12 and thentwo by 20 respectively.
Keep it to zone four and yourrecovery periods should only be
five to six minutes at most.
Be five to six minutes at most.
Now keep Thursday at three by10.
What I, what I my advice thereis keep working the same power
duration and see what the heartrate does over time compared to
that first week.
There'll be some really funthings to see there.
In particular, what we want todo is keep the power the same
(20:50):
and have that heart rate comedown for each interval, or
intensify the power and have theheart rate remain the same, or
interval or intensify the powerand have the heart rate remain
the same or come down over time.
Those are two adaptations thatyou should see when done
properly.
Okay, so that's just Tuesdayand Thursday.
Wednesdays now keep that easy.
One hour at the 55 to 65% ofFTP or zone two.
(21:11):
Mondays and Fridays are yourrest day FTP or zone two.
Mondays and Fridays are yourrest day.
Saturday here's this aerobicdecoupling kind of tester
workout that you're also doingto build aerobic capacity.
What I would do is warm up for10 to 15 minutes of easy
endurance and then take fiveminutes where you progress up to
75% of FTP, which is the topend of your zone two training.
(21:33):
What you want to do is 60minutes at 70 to 75% of FTP, so
very top end of zone two, andthen you cool down for five to
10 minutes.
Okay, very simple workout.
It's hard, it's challenging,you have to pace.
If you've never done 60 minutes, uh, specifically for mentally,
it's kind of a challenge, butthat's a great workout.
(21:54):
Do that every Saturday forthree weeks in a row.
See what you get.
Sunday now, this is yourendurance ride, your free ride.
You're not constrained, nostructure to it.
Aim for an hour and a half atminimum, I would say for most
time crunched athletes.
That'd be a great combination.
Saturday, sunday sort ofback-to-back workouts and, if
you're progressing the long rideor deepening that long ride,
(22:17):
ride up to three hours and it'snot going to necessarily hurt
you if you take that Monday restday and then you come back to
some threshold work on Tuesday.
So that's what I would dospecifically for you, andy, and
for most people who are weavinginto their first round of
threshold training.
Now, third, on this practicaladvice knowing what you want out
(22:39):
of your training will help youunderstand how to use these
zones whether it's seven zone,three zone, 17 zone if that
exists, I don't know.
But again, these zones werecreated to help describe the
training a little bit better, tohelp us be organized about it,
to help our brains organize whatwe're going to do and then map
it out and then actually get itdone.
(23:00):
Zones to read more about thisuse this podcast.
Use the podcast references tothe other interviews that I've
done to help just understand thesystem.
(23:20):
Once you understand the system,then it will make a heck of a
lot more sense of how thesesystems were designed in order
to get the results that you want.
Okay, and as opposed to say,just doing threshold work or
just doing a polarized program,because that's what the pros are
doing Learning how somethingworks is a far better will give
(23:45):
you a far better outcome ratherthan just doing something
because it worked for somebodyelse.
Okay, that's like, if there'sanything that sinks in from this
podcast, please let that onesink in, all right.
So final words here to youspecifically, andy.
I hope all this helps.
If not, like I said, Irecommend you booking a consult
with coach Renee Eastman.
(24:06):
You can do that as well as withany of our coaches.
Head over to trainrightcom andgo to coaches and you can book a
consult there to talk aboutwhatever you want.
Um, renee is awesome abouttaking lab results from any lab
across the world, actually, and,uh, just helping individualize
the advice and decipher some ofthat information a little bit
(24:26):
more.
So she's a wizard at takingthat, uh, all the numbers and
applying it individually to you.
So just know that that's anoption to you, andy.
If this podcast doesn't answeryour question directly, now to
all of the listeners right now,I hope that this comparison,
which I still have up on thescreen, take a screenshot of it
or check out our show notes fora link to the actual spreadsheet
(24:49):
itself.
Again, I got it from TrainerRoad.
There's a lot of nuance in thiswhole worksheet, but if you're
a detail-oriented person, youwill absolutely love it.
Model and, more specifically,has helped you learn how to
identify when it's time to startintensifying your training,
(25:16):
moving beyond just zone two oraerobic training as the primary
focus in your training program.
That's it.
That's our show for today.
If you liked what you heard,please share it with a friend or
your training partner, and ifyou have any questions of your
own, ask me by heading over totrain rightcom backslash podcast
and click on ask a trainingquestion.
(25:36):
Those get sent directly to meand my team at CTS and we'll do
our best to answer it on afuture episode.
Thanks again for listening andwe'll be back next week to share
more actionable training adviceto every single one of you.
Thanks for joining us on thetime crunch cyclist podcast.
We hope you enjoyed the show.
If you want even moreactionable training advice, head
(25:58):
over to trainrightcom backslashnewsletter and subscribe to our
free weekly publication.
Each week you'll get in-depthtraining content that goes
beyond what we cover here on thepodcast.
That'll help you take yourtraining to the next level.
That's all for now.
Until next time, train hard,train smart, train right.
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