Advocating for Equity: A Conversation with Dr. Darryl B. Rice on DEI Challenges and Resilience

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey everybody, welcome to Top 5 DEI, the
premier podcast for and aboutprofessionals who practice
diversity, equity and inclusionin their craft.
I'm your host, dr J, and I'mhere with Dr Miller, aka the
Petty Professor.

Speaker 3 (00:16):
And I'm Tanayi Lambert first time.

Speaker 1 (00:20):
I want to thank everybody for joining us today
for our special guest and, ofcourse, all of our guests are
special.
This individual we've known forsome time in the conferences
together.
He's a brilliant researcher,great person.
I'm going to dive into his bioDarryl B Rice PhD, or Dr Ice to

(00:40):
his colleagues and students.
I love that.
It's funny how you learn newthings about people, right?
I had no idea.
That's wonderful.
Dr Ice is the Richard E FarmerAssociate Professor, associate
Professor of Management at MiamiUniversity and an Associate
Editor at the Journal ofManagerial Psychology.
Dr Ice earned his PhD inBusiness Administration, witha

(01:03):
concentration in Management, atthe University of Central
Florida, his MBA with aconcentration in leadership from
Jacksonville University and hisBS bachelor's in finance,
multinational businessoperations, from Florida State
University.
His research adopts anemployee-centered approach
across four areas, that's,organizational justice,

(01:26):
behavioral ethics, well-beingand stress, and diversity,
equity and inclusion.
Dr Rice is internationallyrecognized for his research,
which has been published inleading scholarly journals such
as Journal of Management Studies, human Relations, journal of
Business Ethics I could go onand on.
His work also appears in theOxford Handbook of

(01:46):
Organizational Justice and hisresearch has been presented and
featured at conferences such asthe Academy of Management,
society for Industrial andOrganizational Psychology and
Southern Management Association,he primarily teaches
Introduction to Management andLeadership in Diversity and
Cross-Cultural Management.
He has also been an invitedguest to organizational justice
and behavioral ethics-themedconferences.

(02:08):
Additionally, dr Rice isinvolved with the PhD project
and he frequently speaks to highschool students about
transitioning from high schoolto college through Miami's Make
it Miami college prep programand Alpha Phi, alpha's Go to
High School Go to CollegeNational program.
Prior to academia, dr Rice wasan investment manager analyst
for Bank of America MerrillLynch.

(02:30):
While working in the financialservices industry, he obtained
his Series 7 and Series 66securities licenses.
He was making that money y'all.
So he's really committed towhat he's doing to walk away
from all that money.
Dr Rice, thank you for joiningus.

Speaker 4 (02:49):
No, thank you.
Thank you for having meDefinitely looking forward to
the opportunity to join thisamazing team of hosts at Top 5
DEI.
And there's actually a coolstory about how I got that
nickname, dr I.
So when I showed up at UCF as adoctoral student, I was, you

(03:12):
know, working as a teachingassistant and my professor put
up my email address.
If students need any, you knowhelp, you know contact Daryl.
Here's his email and my emailaddress was driceatucfedu.
But one of the students asked mehow did I get the school to

(03:35):
give me Dr Ice?

Speaker 3 (03:37):
as an email address.

Speaker 4 (03:38):
And I was like it's just my first initial last name.
But then the name just kind ofstuck because in a you know PhD
program you're always stressed,right, it's crazy, it's
demanding.
But they never saw me likesweat.
They was like you just seemlike nothing ever bothers you.
So Mike was like you're Dr Iceand it kind of just stuck from

(04:06):
there.
I have a campus visit, carlos,you would appreciate this job
market year.
I have a campus visit at MiamiUniversity.
One of the colleagues who wasat Miami was like tell me
something that happened to youas a doctoral student that you
had no idea.
And then I tell him like how Igot the name.

(04:26):
I was like, yeah, one of mystudents thought it was dr rice.
I went to ucf and said give medr rice, and it was d rice
ucfedu.
He started laughing and then hetold everyone and kind of just
stuck out miami as well becauseI I sincerely thought there was
some type of nod to alpha phi,alpha that works too.

(04:50):
So you know, as a as an ice coldbrother of alpha phi, alpha
fraternity incorporated.
When I told my line brothersthey was like that's crazy.
Um, so it works on um thatlevel as well, carlos.

Speaker 1 (05:05):
Oh wow, that's a great story, man Life.
So we learned how you got yourname, Monica.
How did you get into your field, like doing the things that
you're doing?
I mean, tell us your journey.

Speaker 4 (05:21):
Yeah, so at UCF I started out as I was trained as
an organizational justice andbehavioral ethics scholar.
So you know that that was thatliterature just resonated with
me because I left you know,financial services, investment
banking because I just felt likeit was morally wrong for our,

(05:45):
you know, organizational leadersto have these crazy, you know
lavish severance packages,because I was there when it went
you know the crash of 2008,.
Right, so you know, thosedecisions that they made was one
of the reasons Merrilleryllynch, who I worked for, had to

(06:07):
merge with bank of america.
So it's like they made allthese decisions but the people
at the, the low end of the totempole were the ones that were
getting fired and I just thoughtthat was immoral, it wasn't
right, it was unfair.
So that kind of motivated me tolike dive into the justice and

(06:29):
behavioral ethics literature.
And then, as I progressed andstarted looking at you know, the
DEI literature, it was verysiloed.
So you know, the behavioralethics wasn't, you know,
starting to talk to theorganizational justice scholars.
But you know, no one inbehavioral ethics and

(06:51):
organizational justice wasreally interacting and engaging
with DEI scholars in theliterature.
So my first paper in my jobmarket talk was integrating what
I learned as a justice andethics scholar into the DEI
world.
So I presented kind of my firstintegration of the literature

(07:16):
when we talked about theunwelcoming experience of
abusive supervision.
So I was like I don't care ifyou look like me or you don't
look like me.
So I was like I don't care, youknow, if you look like me or
you don't look like me.
If you are in a position ofpower and you are mistreating me
, I'm not going to feel like Ibelong here, I'm not going to
feel welcome.
That paper was well received onthe job market, ended up turning

(07:37):
to a nice publication and eversince then I've kind of made a
academic career integratingacross those three disciplines
because conceptually to me it'sall about treating people right,
treating people fairly.
So it naturally speaks to a lotof issues in the DEI space,

(08:10):
issues in the DEI space.
But yeah, so my justice andethics training kind of led me
to ask certain questions that inthe DEI literature that I felt
like wasn't being asked at thetime.
So that's kind of how I endedup, you know, doing DEI research
, consulting on these issueswith companies and things of
that nature.
That's interesting.

Speaker 1 (08:30):
Yeah, thank you, I'm glad you mentioned that because
I hadn't thought about that,because same thing with the
corporate social responsibilitymetric, right Like at one time
they had this umbrella anddiversity was one of those
facets or dimensions of it.
But then I noticed that justover time just kind of
dissipated that conversation,just left that domain.

(08:51):
I mean that's not my forte, mywheelhouse CSR.
But it's funny how similarly Iappreciate your mind seeing that
and wanting to do somethingabout it too.
That's cool.

Speaker 4 (09:03):
Yeah about it too.
That's cool, yeah, so one ofthe things that my mom is always
telling me, as well as my wifeand anyone who knows me.
They always say I like to fightright in terms of if something
is bothering me, I just can'tlet it go like I have to say
something.
I have to let you know.

(09:24):
You know without a shadow of adoubt, like, where I stand on
this issue.
So if something kind of likeriles me up, I'm going to say
something.
You know it wasn't beneficialin the corporate space, but it
has resulted in more wins thanlosses in my academic career.

Speaker 1 (09:50):
That's good, good for you, awesome.

Speaker 2 (09:52):
That is also very empowering.
I have a follow-up question tothat For everyone who's
listening in.
I just want to clarify that DEIdoes not mean didn't earn it.
It means diversity, equity andinclusion.

(10:16):
Just in case you know, justwant to start on that basis.
And so when you were studyingand are studying organizational
justice and ethics and combiningit with the research of
diversity, equity and inclusion,um, did you take on?

(10:38):
Because one one and the reasonwhy I'm asking this I'm just
wondering did you take on aperceptual lens when you were
looking at how to integrate?
Because studying organizationaljustice or perceptions of
justice is what got me into theDEI literature.
And then, when I think ofwhat's happening in our world

(10:58):
today, I think our framingaround what's fair and what's
just is taking a shift.
So I'm just interested, whenyou're cause, you're telling us
about your journey, how you gotinto the DEI space, but how are
you seeing that trajectory go?

Speaker 4 (11:18):
So I see the trajectory going in different
directions, but it's based uponthe audience, right?
So you know the prototypicalaudience in terms of who I'm
saying let's integrate.
These are other academics andthat you know that trajectory

(11:39):
has went exceptionally well,like it's more of like I'm
literally getting invites to gotalk at organizations because I
have somehow managed to live inthis space that merges justice
and DEI.
I see it in society going twodifferent directions.

(12:03):
The screening mechanism isbasically one's political
ideology.
So if you are more of aprogressive in your political
ideology, you are more open tohearing how justice and DEI is

(12:23):
integrated.
If you have this conservativepolitical ideology, even when
you hear it, you try to pokeholes in it because it's simply
at odds with your politicalmechanism.
So one of the things that'scool about teaching my diversity
in cross-cultural managementcourse we get into what is

(12:47):
called, what are called culturalscreens, and cultural screens
are these psychologicalmechanisms that literally shape
how we receive the informationthat's being presented.
And you know in America, basedupon, like you know, your
culture, that screens change.
In America one of the mosteffective cultural screens is
political ideology.

(13:08):
It influences how we receiveinformation, our selective
perception, our confirmationbias.
So I can present the same paperor the same findings and, based
upon that political screen, yousee value in the work or you
don't see value in it.
And I'll give you a quickexample.

(13:28):
So one of my papers, againplaying at this intersection of
DEI and ethics.
We were my colleagues and I welooked at how it impacts
leadership styles, right, andwhat we found were managers when
they perceive they're in anorganization with a strong

(13:51):
psychological diversity climate,it increased their subsequent
evaluations from their employeesof ethical leadership and
abusive supervision.
So the more this managerperceived that they were in an
organization with a strongpsychological diversity climate,
they were rated higher onethical leadership and lower on

(14:16):
abusive supervision.
Conversely, if managers were inorganizations they perceived as
having a weak psychologicaldiversity climate, they were
rated lower on ethicalleadership and higher on abuses
supervision.
So the hook for that paper isif you, if most organizations,

(14:39):
care about increasing ethicalleadership and decreasing abuse
of supervision increasingethical leadership and
decreasing abusive supervision,right, you don't want to get
sued for abusing people orcausing an organizational
scandal, right?
So that's good.
Like people are like yeah, weneed more ethical leadership, we
need less abusive supervision.
Here's how you get that.
And then you bring inpsychological diversity climate.

(15:02):
If people you know progressiveideology, they're more likely to
say, hey, this is demonstratedin an experiment and in a field
study.
You know conservatives?
Oh, I still don't buy it.
There has to be something elsethat explains it.
Control for some other things.
That doesn't explain it.
So I think you just have tounderstand who you're talking to

(15:26):
.
And I think as DEIprofessionals we have to be okay
that we're never going to geteverybody to see the value in
this work because it inherentlychallenges the status quo and
when you are challenging valuesystems, deeply held convictions
and things of that nature.

(15:46):
So if someone just thinks DEIis about helping you know black
people or women, people withvisible, invisible disabilities,
it doesn't matter how you knowstrong, the business case, the
empirical evidence it is, it'sstill you know you are.
I don't like it because this iswhat I think it is, although

(16:07):
you know from an empiricalresearch standpoint, what they
think it is is completelyinaccurate.

Speaker 2 (16:12):
So Hmm, interesting.
You know I haven't seen thatparticular research and I'm
wondering, and I know I have tomove off of this, but I would
hypothesize that there's likelya curvilinear relationship
somewhere in there, like to theextent of your extremism, of
your beliefs, one in onedirection or another.

(16:35):
Um, because I you know therecould be a point of being too
progressive where nothing, youfeel like nothing, is enough or
could you.

Speaker 1 (16:46):
That's an interesting thing.
Yeah, I haven't thought aboutthat.

Speaker 4 (16:56):
Yeah, so with most of you know the research that we
do in general, I tend to believeat some point you know there is
this diminishing value andthat's where the curvilinear
relationship comes in.
I also think how you, whenyou're studying this stuff, like
how you measure it, reallymatters.

Speaker 2 (17:18):
So the way before you go in, I have to say this.
So if my 12-year-old werelistening and heard you say the
psychological climatepsychological diversity climate.
Can you explain that to my12-year-old in a way that she
might understand it?

(17:39):
And I realize I didn't explainwhat I meant by curvilinear
relationship, but just so we canmake sure everybody can follow
you.

Speaker 1 (17:46):
Yeah, I was about to say you're getting real heady
right now, like folks are goingto have to pull out dictionaries
to let them get no.
No, thank you.
Good, point it out, yeah, andalso what it means to control
for another variable Cause I wasgoing to interject that, but
you can, yeah.

Speaker 4 (18:27):
Yeah, so.
So, carlos, if I had to explainthis to a 12-year-old, but a
14-year-old.
So psychological diversityclimate is the extent you
believe your company, where youare working, actually have
policies and practices thathelps everyone be promoted.
They're removing barriers thatimpact certain individuals.

(18:51):
So the more you do that,there's just this natural
agreement that, yes, thiscompany is inclusive.
This company understandscertain individuals have
barriers that others don't.
So that's how I'll explain itTo what extent your company is

(19:12):
aware that we have differentpeople in the workplace and we
have to make those individualsfeel welcome by removing
barriers that could be in placeand promoting and developing
whoever is in our workplace.
No matter, you know ourdifferent identities, but if

(19:33):
you're here, we're going todevelop you.
So that's how I'll explain itto your 12 year old.
You can get back to me if thatworked or not.
I will.
That work or not, I will.
And to your point, jason, whenwe say you're controlling for
other variables, you're justaccounting for alternative

(19:54):
explanations.
So, hey, this may also impactthis finding or why we think
this psychological diversityclimate is increasing ethical
leadership.
It could be that they have anethical culture and that's
what's driving the ethicalleadership, or this person just

(20:17):
is a nice, ethically oriented,morally strong individual,
morally strong individual.
So we want to account forpotentially alternative
explanations to really say wehave something here.

Speaker 1 (20:33):
Yeah, and you know what?
I wish we could talk about yourresearch, because I really like
your research, especially theone about people who support
Trump and abusive supervisoryroles.
I mean, we can go on and on,but we have limited time.

Speaker 2 (20:49):
We do, and I'm sorry.
We're going to have to inviteyou back.

Speaker 3 (20:52):
Invite you back just for a research session.

Speaker 4 (20:55):
We'll talk offline.
In terms of how much stuff wehad to go through to get those
published.
That was a journey.

Speaker 2 (21:07):
The story behind.

Speaker 4 (21:11):
Jesus.

Speaker 3 (21:13):
All of that, what you're saying.
It also impacts health careoutcomes, right, they've gotten
rid of.
Now they want to say you can'tsay DEI, get rid of DEI.
But what we've seen is becauseof I like this term cultural
screens, right biases, thingslike that those impact how

(21:34):
nurses and doctors and otherproviders treat patients, and it
all has an impact on outcomes.
So, even though they don't wantto talk about, it, certainly is
something to be talked aboutabsolutely, that sounds like a
paper man.

Speaker 1 (21:48):
We had cultural screens in health care.
You know some collaboration.

Speaker 3 (21:52):
I mean, you know you don't want to call it DEI, we'll
call it what?
Hmm?

Speaker 1 (21:58):
oh what's the next question?

Speaker 2 (22:00):
I was going to say I'm up for the next question
because then you know I wasabout to piggyback on that.
But I will stay on somewhat ofa track.
Dr Ice, Sorry, I'm never goingto, especially now that I know
the story.
I'm probably going to chuckleevery time I say it.

(22:20):
No-transcript.

Speaker 4 (22:44):
Oh, so so many to share.
But what I am actually proud oflike an accomplishment happened
last week.
Yeah, so I was the inauguralfaculty recipient of Miami's

(23:09):
University's MLK Service Award.
So, yeah, kudos, kudos, yeah,thank you, thank you.
The story behind it is, lastyear, our Office of

(23:44):
Transformation and InclusiveExcellence as well as the Center
for Student Diversity andInclusion at Miami.
Like hey, who on campus youknow, lives up to the ideals of
Dr MLK Jr.
So when I got the email sayinghey, you're nominated, you're
going to, you know, receive thisrecognition.

(24:05):
It was an extremely humblingevent because I know I make a
lot of noise like for better orworse.
I know sometimes I may causeheadaches for individuals in
terms of how outspoken I am oncertain issues, but to have you
know, students, faculty andstaff you know say like yo, we

(24:29):
see you, we see the work thatyou do not just in you know,
students, faculty and staff youknow say like you know, we see
you, we see the work that you donot just in you know, your
research and teaching, but theservice that you are providing
to the students and helping youknow them achieve their goals in
the spirit of removing barriers, fighting for equity and
equality.
That really meant a lot for me.

(24:53):
So that is one accomplishmentthat I was proud of.
And then, when I got it, I tooka picture of it.
I text it to my oldest daughter.
I have three kids a 14-year-olddaughter, a nine-year-old son
and a seven-year-old daughter.
So my 14-year-old daughter.
I texted to her a picture of itand she texts back I'm so proud

(25:18):
of you, daddy.
And I was like you've neversaid you've been proud of me in
my life.
But she was like, no, I'malways proud of you, but I just
really wanted to Her textingback saying I'm so proud of you.
That made it even more special.

Speaker 2 (25:39):
Yeah, why am I crying ?

Speaker 3 (25:41):
I know, that is beautiful.

Speaker 1 (25:46):
That was the accomplishment right there.
That was really what made theday right.

Speaker 4 (25:50):
The text like oh yeah , yeah, you know, because you
know you know dads and you knowthe daddy daughter relationship
is super special.
You know you're overprotective.
These are my princesses andlittle boy, better not ever try.
You know my, my babies, right.

(26:11):
So you know you always havethis protective, you know spirit
or or whatnot, and then for herto be like I see, like I see
you dad, like that, I'm so proudof you.
Yeah, I mean, I, I didn't sheda tear because I'm a G probably.

(26:31):
Carlos, you're like my wife,like my wife she I call her a
water bag.
When you watch the TV andsomething happens, she'll just
start.
I'm like why are you crying?
But but yeah, so that wasreally, really special.

Speaker 1 (26:45):
I plead the fifth because my wife is right here.

Speaker 3 (26:48):
Smart man smart man was really, really special.
I plead the fifth because mywife is right here.

Speaker 4 (26:52):
Smart man, smart man, that PhD comes in handy huh.

Speaker 2 (26:57):
Listen, I'm going to tell you why I teared up.
I teared up because I mean, youand I we've had some
conversations, we've worked onsome committees together, we've
done some stuff together and Iknow that what I know about you
is that all the you know thenoise that you may make, the
smoke that you may raise and allof the service that you do is I

(27:22):
know that you do it not justfor today's challenges but for
the future.
And you know how do youestablish and lead a legacy for
your children's children.
And so when you said that, yourdaughter said I'm proud of you
because I know that your kids Imean we're all parents on this
panel they don't see all that wesacrifice, all the smoke that

(27:45):
we get to try to, like you said,just make the world, the
working world, just a better andmore just and equitable place
so that when they enter theworkforce and when they have
their own jobs, they don't haveto deal with some of the crap.
And so you know they don't knowthat.
So I'm like I started cryingbecause I could just imagine
like, wow, she sees you and youprobably didn't even know that

(28:08):
she sees you like that.

Speaker 4 (28:11):
Yeah, it's like the roles reversed, yeah, so you,
kind of based upon theconversations you know we've had
last year and kind of justseeing her come into her voice,
whether it's you know her goingon and on and on about the
TikTok ban and shutting down myrights, freedom, I'm like, ok,

(28:35):
right, the apple's not fallingtoo far from the tree, so I got
it, I got to give her that.
But yes to your, to your point,carlos.
That is one of the reasonsbecause you all know like this
this work is, is difficult, likeyou know, some people see the
value, but then some people will, you know, you become a target
because you're doing this workfor, for others.

(28:58):
So that is one of the reasonsthat keeps me like motivated is,
like you know, like I want, youknow, my children, my
grandchildren, my great greatgrandchildren to you know, have
a more equitable and inclusivesociety.

Speaker 3 (29:18):
So, speaking to that, you said doing that, doing that
work.
How has that been inspecifically working with DEI?
So yeah, in Ohio.

Speaker 4 (29:29):
It's been weird it's been mixed, so you know.

Speaker 3 (29:34):
Y'all had those visitors on the bridge.

Speaker 4 (29:37):
Yeah, so yeah, yeah, that asked what happened in
Lincoln Heights.
I was not surprised, given it'sa predominantly black
neighborhood and it's like FAFO.
So yeah, they got it ran up outof there really quick.
But for the work being in Ohio,it's mixed because we've had

(30:02):
our anti-DEI legislation pendingfor more than two years.
Dei legislation pending for morethan two years so when the
first bill that was introducedwas Ohio Senate Bill 83, and
everyone just thought that wasgoing to pass.
So you know, we started.
The school made the decision tochange some of the names.

(30:23):
They asked me to change mycourse title.
It was like oh, you'rediversity and cross-cultural
management.
They asked me to change mycourse title.
They was like oh, you'rediversity and cross-cultural
management.
Can you just call itcross-cultural management?
My colleague who teaches it withme, you know we push back right
and I pushed back veryforcefully because I read the

(30:45):
bill.
I said, first of all, the billhasn't even passed and even if
you read the bill, it saysnothing in this bill should be
misconstrued to impact class andcourse instruction.
So I'm not changing my titleand I also feel like this
request is politically motivatedand did not have anything to do
with the content or thecurriculum that we teach.

(31:06):
I knew that was going to makeits way to our general counsel
office.
That's why I put I feel likethis is politically motivated.
Less than 30 minutes later weget a response that we can keep
the name.
Diversity, cross-culturalmanagement.

Speaker 1 (31:23):
Good for you, that's awesome.

Speaker 4 (31:25):
Yeah, but yeah, you just have to know what's in the
bill and what it impacts andwhat it doesn't impact, because
a lot of people just take whatother people say word is gospel
and don't read it for themselves, so it's just hearsay.
So we've been allowed to dowhat we've always done.

(31:46):
So my work, my research isbeing funded.
I go to the conferences.
I'm not being shut down anywayin my role as a professor.
Now our Office of InstitutionalDiversity and Inclusion was
changed to the Office ofTransformational and Inclusive
Excellence Office ofTransformational and Inclusive

(32:09):
Excellence, and directors ofstudent diversity, equity and
inclusion have been, you know,director of said program.
So we have, you know, dealtwith some of the name changes in
Ohio.
The people, at least in staff,in my opinion, when you're staff

(32:32):
you don't have the sameprotections as faculty.
So you know they're just being,you know, dictated like.
This is what it's going to be.
I'm going to change your title,because I can't change your
title as opposed to you can'tchange.
You know you can ask me tochange this course.
But you know, academic freedomsays I like, like.
You gave me this, like weliterally made the
recommendation to switch fromcross-cultural management to

(32:55):
diversity and cross-culturalmanagement back in 2020, when
everyone was on the dei hypetrain, um.
So it's been mixed Um and nowit seems like this new push to
get it passed um is is going toto be um successful.

(33:16):
But I submitted, you know, mymy written testimony.
We have opposition hearings umtomorrow for the bill.
I can't make it.
So I just submitted my writtentestimony Um, but the work
continues.
I think, no matter what, thiswork continues because I truly
believe this work is rooted insystemic anti-black racism and

(33:41):
what we know in this particularcountry, that systemic
anti-black racism.
It evolves, it morphs, itchanges.
It's like this virus right, ifyou don't kill it, it just
changes and finds a new host andDEI, you know evidence-based
approach, you know, to DEIinitiatives.

(34:02):
That is like the cure, likethat is what's going to kill
this virus.
So our work changes to to meetthis new manifestation of it.
So I don't think, you know,regardless of what laws you pass
, the work will um get done.
So, yeah, ohio's, it's beenmixed.

(34:23):
It hasn't been, as you know,kind of this forceful ban that
you see in my home state ofFlorida where, like you know, my
colleagues are like yo, it'scrazy.
Down here you probably havesome similar experiences in
Texas.
So we're not, we're not there,but you know is we're also not.

(34:43):
You know, you know Californiaor Oregon, washington or New
York, where it's like we'reliving in, like completely
different realities.

Speaker 1 (34:53):
Countries almost In one country, yeah.

Speaker 2 (34:58):
Really, speaking of Texas, my home state, what do
you find most troubling aboutthe DEI narrative in Texas and
other red states?
Because we know thatscholarship and research it
permeates across all of theseborders and I know you hear and

(35:23):
see what going on, what's goingon and have other colleagues, so
we are curious to know aboutyour perspective.

Speaker 4 (35:32):
The most troubling aspect of the narrative is just
how blatantly mischaracterizedit is.
It's like they know when I saythey, I would consider they as
DEI opponents.
They know they can't win onscholarship and research.

(35:57):
The business case is too solid.
You have all these scholars atleading institutions from across
the planet, not just in America, from across the planet.
That shows the value of DEI,right.
So I was like all right, wecan't win, you know, that battle
.
So we're just going tocompletely mischaracterize,

(36:22):
intentionally lie about it.
So it's the grossmischaracterization, the lies
just being you know peddled andhow it's just thrown out there
just to kind of, you know, rileup folks.
You know who are againstdiversity, equity and inclusion

(36:50):
of goes back to what happened inmaryland when the, you know the
, the boating accident, theferry hits the, the bridge, the
bridge collapsed.
And then you know they, theyblame that on dei.
Although the horrible um plane,you know accident that happened
um over in the dc area, andthen they blamed that on DEI.

Speaker 2 (37:07):
So even like most recently, Trump's assassination
attempt was also blamed on DEI.

Speaker 4 (37:16):
Yeah, speaking of Trump, he also blamed the Chiefs
attention being on DEI as thereason they got blew out in the
Super Bowl.
So it's just like themischaracterization in terms of
like this is what DEI is allabout.

(37:37):
Like the opponents, you knowfalsely leveling the accusation
that these programs, and again alot of it, is rooted in
anti-black racism.
A lot of people don't want toadmit it, but you know the dei
hires.
When you think of dei hires,they they generally are aimed at
.
You know black people, not thepeople of color, but black

(37:59):
people, like when vice presidentuh, harris became the nominee,
it was a lot of stuff about her.
You know being a DI, you knowcandidate, despite her being the
actual vice president.
You know a senator from you knowthe state of California, an
attorney general for so all ofher credentials and

(38:21):
qualifications don't matter, youknow, because her skin
complexion, so that's that's themost troubling aspect about
this is like you just, you justlie, because I mean, if you're a
person of color, particularlyif, if you are a black person,
you know you can't be mediocre,right?

(38:43):
If we're mediocre, there's noway we're getting a job.
We're not getting promoted,we're not.
There's no way we're getting ajob, we're not getting promoted,
we're not being admitted intocolleges, selective programs, if
we are mediocre.
Oftentimes at least, I was told.
Growing up in the South rightFlorida, and my mom made it
clear that you have to be twiceas good just to get half of what

(39:06):
they got right.
Twice as good just to get halfof what they got right.
So so there, there's no roomfor, you know, people with
marginalized identities to bemediocre.

Speaker 1 (39:17):
Um so, that right there, that right there exactly
so that's.

Speaker 4 (39:21):
That's kind of my.
It was like we're somehowunqualified and taking spots
from these extremely deservingwhite people, and that has
always been a pet peeve of mine,because when I say, do you know
this person's qualifications,it's like no, but I know this

(39:43):
person is not qualified orshould have went to someone else
who doesn't look like you.

Speaker 3 (39:48):
Yeah, qualify, or should have went to someone else
who doesn't look like you.

Speaker 2 (39:55):
Yeah, yeah, and you know the three of us are based
in Texas.
I would just add you knowsomething that you said about
being in Ohio and how you wereable to refute the Senate bill
by reading it.
I would say that's probably oneof the differences that we're
seeing.
Well, that I've observed isthat, for those of us that do

(40:20):
read and do present like theseare what your word says, it
doesn't matter.
Well, you didn't.
There is the difference betweenwhat's written and what's the
spirit of the law, and they willwin in public opinion and you
know, for forced compliance,even if it's not written.

(40:41):
And so that's why I feel likethere's a, there's a challenge,
because you know, I read thefine print, I read, read
everything, and then when I readit, I say, well, wait, it
didn't say this You're like.
So you know, I don't have tosay that, because this is what I
meant.

Speaker 1 (40:55):
Yeah, we had a lot of that.
You know, if you're watching,you know most of y'all are
watching the news.
But for the audience to bewatching news what's going on in
Texas, there's a lot ofovercompliance, right Even
before the bill passed.
So our bill is SB 17,.
House Senate bill, sorry,senate bill, SB 17.
And it prohibits DEI offices,any office for DEI.

(41:18):
But however-.

Speaker 2 (41:21):
In public universities.

Speaker 1 (41:23):
In public universities, thank you, thank
you for telling me.
Thanks for that clarification.
Yeah, it's not the privatesector, right?
It's not other programs, eventhough now they're trying to
extend that to.
If you receive any type offederal funding that you can't
do any DEI type of work,diversity, equity, inclusion
work.
Similar situation, uh, withover compliance because the bill

(41:48):
uh, its scope uh, does notcover teaching, does not cover
research either, but it stillhad this, or?
student recruitment activitiesor student recruitment
activities because I read ityeah, it's student recruitment
act, yeah, so, yeah, anythingdealing with education.
So I get student recruitmentUnderneath that umbrella of

(42:10):
teaching.
But it still had that chillingeffect because I think, like you
said, dr Ice I got to use it,the term, dr Ice A lot of folks
aren't reading.
So, man, our listeners outthere read everything, okay,
because a lot of this is.
I mean, of course, you know, weknow that they want to do away

(42:31):
with the programs, but some ofthis they know might be
unconstitutional, they know theymight lose.
And so is this term called Ijust learned the other day
called muzzle velocity.
So, steve, it's a strategy thatSteve Bannon came up with.
He coined the term where it'sbasically hit everybody with a

(42:51):
whole bunch of stuff and leavethem confused so that by the
time they figure it out, you hitthem with something else.
So now they have to leave thisand go to the next, and on to
the next, and on to the next,and so it leaves everyone
paralyzed.
And I know for this entire yeareveryone was paralyzed.
Fortunately, we did somelistening sessions to let people
understand that and people hadthis awakening, this aha moment.

(43:15):
They didn't realize like, oh, Ican teach this class or I can
do some research.
They had no idea, and so it'svery important for everybody to
go out there and read, but as ofyet even still, we haven't been
asked to change the names ofour classes.
I'm not going to name it when Iwork at my university, but

(43:37):
there are some that are.
They are asking instructors toscrub the names, the titles of
their courses and theircurriculum.
It's very scary, but what Iknow.
Ty, you had a question.
We talked about it earlier.

Speaker 3 (43:54):
You wanted to ask I did have a question in terms of
Dr Issa how do you combat theseopponents of DEI?
Because, like you said, thework has to continue and it's
rooted in we know what it'srooted in right.
And so, as a healthcareprofessional, as a nurse, I see

(44:14):
that these issues severelyimpact black women and black
people, and so, as a researchermyself, how do I go about

(44:35):
continuing the work?

Speaker 4 (44:36):
So excellent question .
I think I don't give DEIopponents a lot of credit, but
what I do give them credit forand where I I feel like
sometimes us, as dei proponents,we don't have that same

(44:57):
willingness to basically sayI'll see you in court, right?
So, because you know, 2020 wasthis country's racial reckoning,
right, everyone got on board.
The folks who did not like itwas like I don't care if I have
this unfavorable opinion at themoment, I'm going to take this

(45:20):
case to court.
And like I don't care what youthink, I'm going to take this
case to court.
That's how they got affirmativeaction, you know, struck down,
right, this is, you know it's aviolation of the 14th Amendment,
right Is, you know, givingcertain advantages to black and

(45:41):
brown students at the this andyou know, making it more
difficult for, you know, whiteand Asian students.
Right, and they were willing tokind of get in the legal arena.
To your question, ty, I don'tthink we have that same
willingness to the muzzlevelocity that Carlos and Jason

(46:03):
was talking about.
Is we're going to hit you withthis?
We're going to hit you withthis, but if you don't have
anyone, you know on campus inyour organization saying why are
you asking me to do this whenthis is unconstitutional?
Right and literally, like Imade a post when SB1 came up,

(46:26):
miami is Miami knows that ifthis bill passed, this guy will
be a plaintiff in the federallawsuit.
He's already told us thereasons he thinks this bill is
unconstitutional it's aviolation of institutional
autonomy, faculty academicfreedom First and Fourteenth

(46:49):
Amendment violations.
But if you Ty, if you don'thave someone who's like, all
right, that's your approach.
I think that approach isillegal and I'm willing to do
whatever I have to do to defendmy rights.
Right, this is viewpointrestriction.
You can't get over that.

(47:11):
And so I think we do have to bewilling to say all right,
you've passed this bill, butthis bill is unconstitutional.
So what?
We are starting to see whetherwe're talking about Trump's
present executive order banningDEI in Florida, their DEI bill

(47:34):
was Florida Senate Bill 266.
Alabama has one as well.
But the bills in Florida andAlabama are facing legal
challenge, right, the PresidentTrump's executive order is also
facing a legal challenge, and asprofessors we can kind of

(48:00):
appreciate this right.
So we all know these are likecopycat bills from the original,
like the original, the genesisof all this was florida's stop
woke act.
Right, would be my home state,right?
We always got some.
There's always a competitionbetween florida and texas who
can kind of be the craziest,right?

(48:21):
Um, but people, people forgetthat the Stop Woke Act was
passed in April of 2022, butstruck down as unconstitutional
in November of 2022 due toacademic freedom violations and

(48:42):
first and 14th Amendmentviolations.
So as soon as it got challenged,a federal judge put an
injunction on it from takingeffect, and one of the reasons
these state bills are targetingpublic universities and not
private companies in the stateanymore because that section of

(49:05):
banning mandatory trainings fromprivate employers that was also
struck down by the same judgein Florida in terms of this
being unconstitutional.
It was like a state can'tdictate to a private employer
what they can ask or requiretheir employees to be trained on

(49:26):
.
Whether we're talking about DEI, security, fraud, training,
whatnot, it is not the state'splace to say you need to have
this training or you can't havethat training.
But since it's generally a copyand paste job, the federal
challenges across the statesread very similar in terms of

(49:48):
there's a problem with academicfreedom, right, but the main
argument is you can't get awayfrom the viewpoint restriction.
Right, it is the state saying Idon't like this topic of DEI
and I'm trying to censor it.
So it's the viewpointrestriction.
So it's the viewpointrestriction which makes it this

(50:12):
First Amendment violation.
And then, when you startdisbanding these programs and
the funding that comes alongwith it, it disproportionately
impacts people with protectedclasses and that makes it a 14th
Amendment violation becauseit's got to be equal protection
under the law, so it's notracially neutral.
It's like if you read thealabama legal complaint, alabama

(50:35):
goes in like the, the aclu.
I read that and I got excited.
I was like they know whatthey're talking about, right,
but they always like this isdisproportionately impacting
black faculty staff and andstudents and I think that's one
of the reasons Ohio bill hadstalled for two years.

(50:55):
Because I talked to you knowthe people who are.
I was like if we fire everyonein the DEI office that's mainly
black people Like you willliterally open yourself up for a
lawsuit because this employmentaction you're taking at the
state level is incongruent withfederal law, like it can't

(51:18):
disproportionately impact youknow people with protected
classes.
So I think that's why peoplehave been re you know,
reassigned because someone issaying all right, if we
implement this, will we sue forgender or racial discrimination?
Because these laws, given who'sactually doing the work and care

(51:40):
about this, isdisproportionately people with
marginalized identities.
But you have to have peoplewilling to fight that identities
.
But you have to have peoplewilling to fight that.
And sometimes, if I'm a juniorfaculty or a staff, I may not
want to, you know, rock the boat.
So I do think that's why it'simportant for you know, tenured

(52:00):
faculty or people who just don'tlike I don't care about this
job, like this is wrong to bewilling to say okay, cool, you
know, you got this short term,when you and I both know this
bill is unconstitutional.
It's like when someone copies abad paper like this, the
original person got enough.
So what do you think you'regoing to get on this assignment?

(52:23):
So, but we do, ty, we have tobe willing to.
You know, stand 10 toes downand say, all right, they're
coming for these programs.
What exactly are we doing?
That's illegal, like, walk methrough.
How are we violating the law?
Because the scholarship is notrestricted by race.
Anyone can apply as a first gen, you know scholarship program.

(52:47):
It's just not for Black people.
No, black and Brown studentsare disproportionately first-gen
college students because ourancestors were not always
allowed to go to universitiesand whatnot.
So I think when a universityknows that that this person or
this group of people is speakingout on these issues, they're

(53:13):
more likely to.
You know, we're going to havepushback and let me really think
this through.
So I just think we have toreally be able be willing to.
If we have to go to court, wewill go to court.

Speaker 2 (53:27):
Which does require a considerable amount of funding.

Speaker 1 (53:34):
Funding and organizing.

Speaker 4 (53:37):
Or you're going to say organizing, and you're going
to say or yeah, I didn't wantto cut anyone off Not
necessarily right, anyone offnot necessarily right.
So the aclu and the naacp, onceyou start reading the, the
legal.

Speaker 2 (53:54):
So you guys know like I'll be reading right yes yes,
I'm following these cases right.

Speaker 4 (54:02):
So oftentimes they will work um pro bono right,
because this or it's impacting alot of their members.
Because if faculty and staff orstudents are members of the
NAACP, they can bring thelawsuit on behalf of the members

(54:26):
because they have, like what iscalled association standing.
So I was like your law isnegatively impacting my members.
This is what your law iscausing.
The adverse harm is causing mymembers these acts.
So the individual is notnecessarily named.
It is the NAACP or the ACLU.

(54:47):
The ACLU does a lot of filingthe cases and arguing the cases.
I've had several conversationswith folks in the NAACP and ACLU
in different states becausethere is an organizing, there is
like a resistance organizingand, um, you just have to have a

(55:12):
willing party to say this isthe email that I got look, I was
able to go to this conferencelast year but I'm no longer able
to go because the universitywon't use department funds to
allow me to go to thisconference to present my
research, right, um, but again,you have to allow me to go to
this conference to present myresearch, right, but again you

(55:36):
have to have standing to bringthat suit.
So no one you know.
We'll say Texas is willing tosay I'm like this is impacting
me.
It doesn't happen.
Fortunately, in Florida andAlabama and these other states
we see like faculty and studentsworking, you know,
strategically with the ACLU andNAACP to challenge the
constitutionality of these bills.

(55:58):
So like the path is there, youknow we just there's no need to
reinvent the wheel.

Speaker 1 (56:07):
Thank you for sharing .
That was some good stuff,because you know that's what
people ask me all the time.
People are wondering like whatcan I do?
Because it's time to stop justbeing shocked.
It's almost like it'sentertaining now to see what's
the next development, and Ithink that's the way they're
kind of starting to condition usto get into the cycle of again

(56:27):
paralysis, again.
It's time to actually do things, do stuff, right.
So I'm glad you mentioned NAACP, aclu, and so I guess the
people can kind of call, join,find out what's going on that
way, right?
Yeah, I'm going to wrap us upwith the last question, though,
and it's the most fun part ofthe hour drumroll, drumroll for

(56:56):
the top five faves question.
So, dr Ice, you wanted us toask you.
I love this question.
You didn't have to share theanswers.
You shared the answers with me.
You didn't have to share theanswers.
You shared the answers with mealready too.

Speaker 2 (57:10):
We haven't seen the answers.

Speaker 1 (57:12):
I haven't seen the answers.
Y'all need to check youranswers, no.

Speaker 2 (57:17):
I want to be surprised.
Debate allowed.
No, I'm kidding.

Speaker 1 (57:24):
Who are your top five athletes.
I'm going to ask you to do this, if you don't mind.
Key, put them in ranking order,like the least To the number
one top Cause when you listed itI don't know if they were in
just random order or not, causeI saw a name on there I was
kinda curious about, like thisshould be number one, so I'm

(57:47):
just name on there.

Speaker 3 (57:47):
I was kind of curious about like this should be
number one.

Speaker 4 (57:49):
So I'm just wondering Wait.
So I want to start with the top, because that's an interesting
story.

Speaker 1 (57:57):
Okay, you can guess, that's all good.

Speaker 4 (58:00):
Yeah, but it's splitting hairs.
But number one Jerry Rice,right so greatest.
But number one Jerry Rice,right so greatest of all time
receiver.
But growing up I'm fromJacksonville so we didn't have
an NFL team until 1995 when wehad the Jaguars.

(58:21):
But prior to that I was a hugeSan Francisco 49ers fan Still a
chip for the 49ers to this day.
I used to always tell peoplethat Jerry Rice is my uncle.
I always tell people that JerryRice is my uncle.
I was, like yo, my uncle's outhere doing it right so yeah, wow

(58:47):
, I always tell people that soJerry top.
so yeah, so, wow, yeah, so thatI always tell people that so
Jerry top number one all time.
Jerry Rice.
Uncle Jerry yeah, unc gottashow Unc love, right?
Hey, that's a good one, youknow what I get it now.

Speaker 1 (59:04):
I can accept that I like the story behind it story
with it.
Okay, okay, got it.

Speaker 4 (59:10):
Number two MJ Love MJ , In my mind number one NBA
player of all time, because Igot to like watch like MJ, like

(59:31):
be MJ and just see like thisdude does not lose, how like you
got to hope he's just off,Right.

Speaker 2 (59:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (59:41):
So that's, that's number two.
Number three Kobe Bryant, loveKobe.
Yeah, you can't have hentaiwithout kobe that's almost like
a head and hand, right, yeah, soand for me, like it was this
this person is the second comingof mj like the mannerisms, the

(01:00:05):
game, just the assassinmentality, and just like his
will and desire to not bedefeated, no matter like the
odds, so also, carlos, you canappreciate this.
Sometimes I just lock in withthe mamba mentality doing this

(01:00:25):
DIY.

Speaker 2 (01:00:26):
I do, I do, I was gonna say I, with the Mamba
mentality doing this DIY I do.
I was going to say I listen toMamba mentality.

Speaker 4 (01:00:31):
You just got to I don't know vision.
This is going to get done.
There's nothing you can do tostop me.
Number four is Scottie PippenDid a book report on Scottie
Pippen.
Just loved his versatility andjust a huge Chicago Bulls fan

(01:00:51):
going on on.
Scottie Pippen Just loved hisversatility and just a huge
Chicago Bulls fan going on.
But just loved his versatilityright In terms of this, guy can
do everything that you want himto do on the court.

Speaker 1 (01:01:03):
MJ's the greatest, but there'd be no MJ without
Scottie.

Speaker 4 (01:01:06):
Yeah, exactly that.
Yeah, I love the team like itwas dynamic they had that energy
.

Speaker 2 (01:01:14):
That's some extra excitement from the Chicago
delegation that's right and meand me.

Speaker 4 (01:01:24):
I love a team or a duo who can just dominate in
their craft, in their sport,because sustained excellence is
difficult.
So I've always had thisadmiration for teams,
organizations, people, teammateswho have a level of sustained

(01:01:49):
excellence.
So there's something aboutsustaining excellence that has
always, like, garnered a lot ofrespect and admiration from me.
So, down to number five, as anFSU proud graduate, I had to
throw my favorite footballplayer in and that is Peter

(01:02:10):
Warwick.
Right, peter Warwick, the mostexplosive college football
player that I've seen Growing up.
One of the reasons I wanted togo to the Florida States because
of, like, what he did on thefootball field, what Warwick
Dunn and Charlie Ward and allthe FSU greats, but it was just

(01:02:33):
like.
This guy is a highlight waitingto happen.
Like you think you have himbottled up and whatnot.
So Peter Warwick definitely upthere in my top five, and that
was difficult because I have aton of athletes I absolutely
love, but I had to put PeterWark in there, that's a great

(01:02:57):
top five.

Speaker 1 (01:02:58):
I like that.
I see Petty Professor Carlosput in the chat sustained
excellence.
I like that term a lot.
Oh, Petty Professor.

Speaker 2 (01:03:08):
Carlos put in the chat sustained excellence.

Speaker 1 (01:03:09):
Yes, first time I heard that term.
I like that term a lot.

Speaker 2 (01:03:12):
We got this.
I feel like every podcast weshould have.
What was the word, what was thephrase?

Speaker 4 (01:03:17):
of the podcast Word of the day Sustained excellence.

Speaker 2 (01:03:23):
So if y'all want to know how he came up with it, he
assessed his top five based on aframework of sustained
excellence yes, yeah, that'sthat's.

Speaker 4 (01:03:34):
That's what it is, because you can, you can, you
know, like catch lightning inthe bottle.
Everything happens and you, youwin a championship or you win a
scoring title or mvp.
But that tends to be it.
Right, it's like, hey, I donefigured this thing out and
there's nothing you can do tostop me right.

(01:03:55):
So that sustained excellence,the level of like I'm going to
impose my will because I donefigured it out and I'm willing
to put in the work and if you'renot going to work at the same
level or intensity that I'mgoing to work in, I'm going to
come out victorious.
So it's kind of like thededication to the craft, the

(01:04:19):
hours that you put in perfectingyour craft or whatnot, that's
like I have a ton of respect for.
Like I can't stand the Patriotsright, I was like what?

Speaker 3 (01:04:33):
That guy.

Speaker 4 (01:04:34):
Tom Brady sustained excellence right.
He won a lot in New England andthen he goes down and won in
Tampa Bay.
It's just like the evil empireof the Yankees right.
People call it the evil empire,but sustained excellence.
I've always had an appreciationfor sustained excellence.

Speaker 1 (01:05:00):
Yeah, well, thank you so much, dr Ice Daryl.

Speaker 3 (01:05:04):
Thank you.
Lovely meeting you.

Speaker 4 (01:05:07):
Yeah.
This was fun.

Speaker 1 (01:05:10):
Great way to kick off our first episode Top 5 DEI.
This might be a double episodetoo.

Speaker 2 (01:05:16):
We'll edit this out so we can evergreen it, but yeah
, it could be a double episode.
Nah, we're gonna.

Speaker 1 (01:05:25):
Yeah, that's true.
So you got any questions for us.
We didn't have a studioaudience this time.

Speaker 4 (01:05:34):
Oh yeah, oh, wow, okay, let me check out of the 10
questions which I'm just jokingthis is top 5 Dr Ice
interviewing us now we've kindof gotten into it, but you know
what is the environment like inTexas as a DEI professional,

(01:06:00):
because I know the work you do,jason, I know the work you do,
Carlos.
I've been following you, ty, onsocial media as well and
Facebook and on LinkedIn.
I just want to hear, becauseit's like text, I look at text.
I was like y'all not too farbehind in Florida, right, how is
it?
Do you even feel safe doing thepodcast or the work that you're

(01:06:27):
doing?

Speaker 1 (01:06:29):
How are you navigating that space?
That's a real great question.
Considering this podcast, youknow I'm like what's going to
happen will happen Right,because I guess I'm kind of like
you.
Just the truth has to get outand it's just frustrating to see
everyone misinterpreting whatdiversity, equity and inclusion
is like.
I know, carlos, you told methis one time.

(01:06:51):
You were like how can somebodymisinterpret or not define the
word?
The words are what they are andthat's exactly what the work is
.
It's never been any illegal,the EI, so to speak, right and
so.
So, yeah, I mean with thispodcast and like you say, I read
, I read the law, read thelegislation, and so I can do
this.
It's no problem.
You know, I'm not even going to, I haven't even mentioned my

(01:07:13):
university.
This is me in my own personalcapacity, outside of the work
that I do now.
We used to, I used to kind ofhave it kind of mixed in with
the university stuff we did.
As far as the mood, the mood issomber.
I do know people who are out ofwork.
I do know people who are afraidto speak out.
I'm supposed to speak at apanel next week and the director

(01:07:36):
so many people have just fallenoff or are canceling.
But to your point, daryl,people are changing.
People are changing.
My students are changing, daryl.
People are changing.
People are changing.
My students are changing.
They're being more vocal andtrying to discredit the research
that I present in class.
I'm like what are you talkingabout?

(01:07:57):
You don't believe it.
It's this valid research fromgood journals.
It is what it is Like what?
And then I was like, ok, it'stoo old.
Ok, here's a 2023 article, what?
It's the same thing.
Right, you're getting the sameoutcomes.
It's a real concern aboutdiscrimination, exploitation,

(01:08:21):
heteronormativity, all thesethings.
But I know that I'm privilegedbecause I'm a man, even though I
don't have privilege becauseI'm Black.
But there is that maleprivilege that I think that if I
were a woman, I probably wouldnot be able to get away with
some of the things that I do andsay.
You know and also know thisbecause I talk to people and I
know their experiences.
It is concerning we look atlike accreditation issues.

(01:08:45):
That is something that peopleare really concerned about now,
especially when I talk to mycolleagues in nursing, for
example, but I'll let Nurse Tyspeak to that.

Speaker 3 (01:08:54):
Well, like I was saying earlier, for for health
care, the numbers are thenumbers.
You cannot.
Black women are dying at analarming rate and the numbers
have tripled.
Dying at an alarming rate, andthe numbers have tripled.
But the numbers have increased,like ridiculously, even with
the change of the abortionaccess and because doctors are
afraid to be like the overcompliance you have a lot of

(01:09:17):
people over complying, and sowe've had deaths of women that
are preventable, preventable.
These deaths that are occurringare preventable.
And so how is it?
It's sad, it's a sad state ofaffairs, because Black women are
dying more.
The numbers for the other groupshave gotten better, have

(01:09:38):
improved marginally, and sothat's what I'm fighting with
now is that they're like well,the numbers have improved.
No, no, no, no.
But if you look at thesenumbers, these numbers are worse
, and so we're coming up against, like they've, funding issues

(01:09:59):
in terms of how are we going?
We're still going for it, right, still doing the work, still
still applying that effort, butit is.
What is it going to look likeif the funding, because some of
the, a lot of the funding, isaffected, a lot of the funding
is affected, like NIH grants, alot of the words that they have

(01:10:20):
chosen to like go with,specifically speak to Black
women's health.
So I don't see it.
I don't see it having a goodimpact on numbers.
I see it being it's gottenworse and I see it being getting
worse.
And because what I see inhospital because I still work in
hospital as well a lot of thetime like that term I have not

(01:10:44):
heard that term, I don't thinkcultural screens, right, I speak
, I have a very, I'm veryoutspoken, right, and when I
feel like a patient is notgetting the care that they need
or deserve, I speak out to thosecolleagues and coworkers that
I'm with at present, right, butI'm only at the bedside every

(01:11:10):
couple of months, right, and sowhat I see oftentimes are people
the nurses that are thereproviding the care, the doctors
that are there providing thecare, the administrators that
are there in place, in place,they have some real issues with

(01:11:30):
ensuring that the treatment,that the treatment is equal,
equitable, equal and equitableand has the positive and good
outcome that you would want in ahealthcare situation.

Speaker 1 (01:11:47):
So it's all bad.
And the thing that's weird,that makes it very concerning,
is that just when we thought wewere able to handle all the SB
17 stuff from the state issueright, and how it relates to the
university settings, highereducation, you know, the state
school then the executive orderis all piled and then it's like
okay, man, okay, we thought webeat the state thing.
Now it's like okay, man, okay,we thought we beat the state

(01:12:07):
thing, now it's at a federallevel.
Oh my god, like what's the name?
Now?
What's what's the nextstrategic move?
You know, honestly, I think thatis what's really more
terrifying for a lot of peoplethan, uh, just the sp17, because
then that kind of gives alicense to the state to take it

(01:12:28):
even further.
As a matter of fact I don'tknow if it was earlier this week
or last week in the TexasTribune now there's a proposal
for legislation to start lookingat curriculum and research,
yeah, yeah and research.
And so that's like okay, man,that's like the final domino,

(01:12:51):
right.
But I'm glad that you're onthis show.
So I'm wondering if we couldturn back time and we were able
to kind of get in front of thisbefore 2024, 2023, if maybe we
wouldn't be in a differentsituation now.
So this is a learning lessonfor us all.

Speaker 4 (01:13:10):
Yeah, I definitely think this is a learning lesson
and I think, particularly inthis current environment.
A DEI practitioner, researcheryour best friend is a civil
rights attorney at the moment.
Okay, because, ty, even in yoursituation, people just think

(01:13:34):
you can't do anythingspecifically tied to race, and
that's just inaccurate.
You still can have race-basedprogram, but it's these very
narrow exceptions.
For example, you can stillrecruit, have these race-based

(01:13:55):
programs if you are in.
What the legal phrase is is atraditionally segregated job,
right.
For example, if you are aconstruction company and you
want to recruit women, right,that is a traditionally
segregated job.
I think nursing is also one,like if you wanted to recruit

(01:14:18):
more men, since it's like a, youknow, traditionally segregated,
typically, you know, dominatedby women.
You just have to be willing tomake those arguments.
Also, you can haverace-specific programs if it is
designed to address a past issueof discrimination in the

(01:14:43):
workplace.
So if your organization hasjust been sued for racial
discrimination, right, becauseyou're not promoting black
people, you can have a programand say this program is tied to
remedy this situation that wehave.
But a lot of people just don't.
You know, know that, I didn'tknow.

(01:15:04):
You know this stuff until Istart, you know, reading and
educating myself, talking to youknow, various attorneys in my
personal and professionalnetwork, and then you start, you
know, it's like we'reresearchers.
You read this one case and thenhere's this, you know the
precedent or the foundationalcase that kind of set this

(01:15:26):
standard in place.
But again, if we're noteducated then it's hard to know
to your point, jason, what isthe next move.
But I think, from a strategystandpoint, the next move is
anticipating what's going to bein the executive orders and the

(01:15:49):
state bills.
So once they're passed you'reready to file a lawsuit.
So, although that executiveorder was issued, like less than
what?
72 hours, like there was alegal challenge to that
executive order.

Speaker 2 (01:16:08):
So yeah, we should not have been surprised by them.
They've been saying all alongthey were kind of written out
like oh, this is the playbook oh, here they are.

Speaker 1 (01:16:18):
Here's what frightens me, because I think that they
knew that and they were usingthis muscle velocity strategy to
distract me in some sort of waythat maybe I'm not even aware
of yet, or something else that Imissed, or something that the
media is missing, it's notcovering Right, and so that's
yeah, that's, that's, that's myconcern now, like when I saw

(01:16:39):
it's almost like what's next isabout?
It's it's, it's rather what'shappening now that I don't know
what's coming next.
It's rather what's happeningnow that I don't know what's
coming next.
You know, and so we need to.
That's why I'm going to get incontact with these organizations
that you mentioned to kind ofget a deeper understanding of
what are some of the next movesthat are happening to combat
these DEI opponents.

Speaker 4 (01:17:01):
Remember, one of the goals is for you know, DEI
proponents, to liveonents, tolive in this constant source of
trauma.
You're in this constant stateof trauma and, to your point,
jason, it was like boom, we'redealing with SB17 and then we
get this executive order.
It's done to demoralize becauseif I can demoralize you, you're

(01:17:25):
not going to fight back.
You'll be paralyzed you're goingto be paralyzed and you won't
even think to challenge what I'mI'm doing because, deep, like
they know, like these areunconstitutional, they don't
care, they just got the powerand I'm going to do this and see
what, how you're going torespond, but I I think once um

(01:17:51):
to respond, but I think onceeveryone is looking forward to
the oral arguments that's goingto be made in Florida in March
for their most recent version ofthe DEI bill.
So if that one gets struck downor issued a preliminary or
permanent injunction, that'sgoing to be the linchpin for all
these other state bills to play.

(01:18:13):
So you do have to understandthe strategy and where you file
and what type of.
You know the judge that's goingto hear you, because what's
happening in Florida the ACLUthey filed it in the
jurisdiction of the same judgewho struck down the Stop Wolf
Act, right?
So it's kind of like game,recognized game you are using.

(01:18:37):
You know these conservativelegislators.
We're going to bring thelawsuit in these favorable
jurisdictions.
So the judge who oversees thatisn't is an obama um appointee,
and one of the reasons I guessone theory out there why we
haven't seen anything in texasas the moment is because I guess

(01:19:00):
, uh, the, the fifth circuit.
Well, whatever that is likelyto hear the Texas case they was
like this is, you know, anextremely conservative um
jurisdiction, so it can beproblematic if you get an
unfavorable ruling.
So I think everyone is iswaiting to see what happens um

(01:19:22):
in Florida and Alabama, becauseonce those dominoes fall, the
other ones will fall becausethey're just copy and paste jobs
.
So if those that get struckdown you know first and 14th
Amendment violations, everyonehas to play a book in terms of
these are the legal argumentsthat you make, because again, it

(01:19:46):
seems like they just can't getaround the viewpoint restriction
argument.

Speaker 2 (01:19:51):
But you got to keep hope alive yeah, I was actually
going to say you know, in myspace, you know I'm like this
hybrid.
You know I'm a scholar,practitioner, but I'm a free
agent.
I call myself a free agent ofchange.
And so, um, I, I experienced,and I saw the writing on the

(01:20:13):
wall.
You know what's happening in inthe private sector.
Now I tell people, hey, whatdon't get, don't get too relaxed
.
Whatever you see happening inuniverse, it's we go together.
You know, it's like whateverhappens here is going to try to.
It's like, okay, bet, we gotthis All right, now let's try to
infiltrate some aspects of theprivate sector.

(01:20:33):
And so, with you know, what Ido now as a full-time consultant
and advisor and researcher andempowerment coach is exactly
what you said there is hope andI feel like even just being part
of this podcast.
So there has been.

(01:20:55):
I've gone through feeling thefear, feeling the frustration,
feeling the hurt, just feelingthe pain.
It's feeling the like, oh, like.
Every day I'm being gaslit.
I know that this work, I know,oh, you don't even care about a
definition to now I'm beinggaslit.
I know that this work, I know,oh, you don't even care about a
definition to now I'm feelingempowered and I feel like you
know someone else had asked meare you afraid to do a podcast

(01:21:16):
like this, given a lot of thesebattles are being fought in the
media, in social media, like yes, because I'm not alone, I have
have Ty, I have Jason, I havebold, courageous leaders like
yourself, dr Ice, who we cancollectively inform and educate,

(01:21:38):
an audience that I may not beable to reach if I was just by
myself, as a single thoughtleader or a single thought
person, where everything that Ican do can be, like you know,
misconstrued and torn apart, butI don't think anyone's going to
succeed coming for all of usall at once you know that's

(01:21:59):
right.

Speaker 1 (01:22:02):
doing something like this, putting ourselves out
there, takes a lot, you know.
And on that note, we don't wantto take up all of your time,
your precious time, because weknow that you're probably going
to leave and then put outanother paper Tomorrow.
I'll be like, yeah, I gotanother publication.
So we know that's how you do sohere.

(01:22:27):
Let's get back to your writing.
We've run out of time.
I want to thank you again,daryl, dr Ice, it's good knowing
you.
Thanks for coming up, showingup.

Speaker 4 (01:22:38):
You know this.
Yeah, this, this was fun.
Thank you for for theopportunity.
It's always good to to to talkabout, you know, dei and the
period that we are in isdefinitely some significantly
challenges, significantchallenges, but I also think
there are some goldenopportunities in this moment,

(01:23:10):
understanding that you knowthere is a resistance.
There is, you know, people whotruly believe and see the value
of this work, and I just thinkwe're just naturally more
resilient and more tenaciousthan this new wave of you know,
anti-dei, anti-wokeness thathappens, that's happening, but I
definitely appreciate theopportunity to come on and be a
guest in Top 5 DEI Podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:23:34):
Thank you so much.
Thank you so much and for ouraudience.
If you enjoyed tonight'spodcast, please make sure you
share, subscribe and like, andalso feel free to email us at
top5deipodcast at gmailcom.
Good night everybody.

Speaker 2 (01:23:55):
Good night, good morning, good afternoon.

Speaker 1 (01:23:58):
Enjoy your day, peace out.