June 10, 2025 • 45 mins
We hope you enjoy today's podcast and feel free to send us a text
Word of the day: "fair-chance hiring" and "person"
Resource of the day: Young, Nicole & Powell, Gary. (2015). Hiring ex-offenders: A theoretical model. Human Resource Management Review. 25. 298-312. 10.1016/j.hrmr.2014.11.001.
In a powerful conversation with Dr. Nicole C Jones-Young, we explore the complex challenges facing individuals with criminal histories as they seek to rebuild their lives through meaningful work.
Dr. Jones-Young's path to becoming a leading researcher on criminal justice and employment began unexpectedly. While volunteering with organizations serving unhoused populations, she noticed a pattern of employment gaps linked to incarceration. This observation sparked a passion that eventually led her from human resources to academia, where she now conducts groundbreaking research on fair chance hiring practices as an Associate Professor at Franklin and Marshall College.
The language we use matters profoundly in this space. Dr. Jones-Young emphasizes the importance of person-first terminology, reminding us that a criminal record represents something someone did, not who they fundamentally are. This shift in language reflects a deeper philosophical stance: people deserve to define themselves rather than having identities imposed upon them by society.
We explore the promising landscape of fair chance hiring, highlighting organizations like JP Morgan Chase, Dave's Killer Bread, and The Body Shop that have successfully implemented initiatives to employ people with criminal histories. These companies demonstrate that inclusive hiring practices aren't just socially responsible—they're good business. Yet frustratingly, many companies only lower barriers to entry during labor shortages, revealing that exclusionary policies often stem from convenience rather than necessity.
The conversation takes a sobering turn when discussing the industrial prison complex and its troubling connections to modern-day slavery. Many incarcerated individuals develop skills and earn certifications while serving time, yet these accomplishments are rarely valued by employers upon release—even by the very companies profiting from prison labor.
Despite these challenges, Dr. Jones-Young remains committed to creating change. She shares her self-care strategies, including setting firm boundaries around work communications and finding joy through physical activity. The episode concludes with a lighthearted discussion
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hello, good people.
Welcome to Top 5 DEI, thepremier podcast for and about
folks who cultivate diversity,equity, inclusion in their craft
.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
I'm your host, Dr J, and I'm here with Dr Miller, aka
the Petty Professor, and I'mTanae Lambert Nurse Ty.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
And I want to thank you all for joining us for
today's special guest, dr NicoleC Jones-Young.
Dr Nicole C Jones-Young is anassociate professor of
organizational behavior atFranklin and Marshall College in
Lancaster, pennsylvania InTexas.
Sometimes we call it.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Lancaster, lancaster.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Lancaster.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Lancaster.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
That's right.
Lancaster right.
But I'm from Chicago originally, so I'm going to say Lancaster,
Pennsylvania, that's fair.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
I'm from New York originally, so I have no claim
to.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Her scholarship is concentrated in the areas of
diversity, equity andorganizational inclusion, with a
specific focus on theemployment experiences of
individuals who possess acriminal history.
Dr Young has published numerousacademic journals and journal
articles, including two booksNow Hiring a Manager's Guide to
Employing Applicants with aCriminal History and Employing
(01:19):
Our Returning Citizens anEmployer-Centric View.
She has taught courses inorganizational behavior, human
resources, organizationalinclusion and sports management,
and she earned her PhD from theUniversity of Connecticut, her
MBA from Fairleigh DickinsonUniversity and her bachelor's
from Towson University.
Please help me welcome DrNicole C Jones-Young.
(01:42):
Help me welcome Dr Nicole.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
C Jones-Young, dr Jones-Young, thanks for being
here.
Thank you all for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Welcome, welcome.
Yes, the pleasure is truly ours.
We are such fans of your workand how you highlight the
experiences of our vulnerablepopulations and those most
marginalized and teach us andshow us, not just in scholarship
(02:10):
but also in practicalapplication, how we can make the
world a little better forpeople who deserve and need a
shot.
Oh, that's nice.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
I like it.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
And we got to put spec on the name and give
flowers while you're here, right?
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Yes, what they say yeah, so please tell us how did
you get into your field, if youcould walk us through your
journey of how you got to thispoint in life.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Okay, so I went to Towson.
I was a sports management major.
I came out, I worked for theNew Jersey Nets so I'm already
dating myself a little bitbecause they're obviously now in
Brooklyn but I wanted to moveinto human resources and,
believe it or not, we didn'thave an HR department.
So I decided to go back for myMBA in HR and thought I needed
(02:59):
some more like hands-onexperience.
So I started volunteering withthis organization that helps
people who are currentlyunhoused and they had a computer
lab and they needed help withlike resume review and you know,
mock interviewing, like allthose things, job searching, and
so I would go there once a weekand help different people that
(03:22):
would come in and I startednoticing, kind of every now and
then I would get somebody thatseemed like they had a gap in
their experience and so andusually that gap was some way
shape or form attributed tocriminal justice system.
So, moving on, you know I movedinto HR.
I still kept volunteering.
(03:43):
I started volunteering with thisorganization called New York
Cares and most of the projects Idid were again with people that
had some way shape or forminvolvement with the criminal
justice system.
So they would have gaps intheir resume.
They would ask me how theycould explain those gaps in
their resume, gaps in theirresume.
(04:03):
They would ask me how theycould explain those gaps in
their resume.
We would try to translate whatthey did while they were locked
up to how it could look on theirresume.
So, doing all this maneuveringin their resume and it just made
me just really aware and acute.
So I definitely knew people whohad been arrested.
I knew people that had beenincarcerated.
But just sitting with peoplethat I didn't know, week after
(04:27):
week after week, and they'recoming in, I was just like this
is crazy.
So I was starting to get morepassionate about that than my
job.
And at some point someone fromI was in the National Black MBA
Association in New York.
Somebody told me hey, you everheard of this PhD project?
I think you'd really like this,nicole.
So I attended the PhD projectconference in 2009.
(04:51):
And, full disclosure, I am Idon't know if any of you were
there at the same time I wasn'tthere, I was there.
So we didn't meet each otheruntil later.
But and full disclosure, I'mreally frustrated right now
maybe we'll talk about thislater with, uh, all the heat
(05:12):
that the PhD project is taking.
There's an amazing organizationlike I would have never known
what a PhD was had it not beenfor the PhD project.
Right, friends?
I mean, that's the wholepurpose of it is to just get
people like me, like you, thatwere working, that may not have
had any previous researchexperience, to just know what
(05:32):
academia is.
I never thought about it beforeand when I left from there I
was like, okay, I'm a pivot, I'mgoing to apply for a PhD and
I'm going to do this thing.
And what I did was, while I wasapplying and like retaking and
taking and retaking again theGMAT, I decided to do a one year
(05:54):
AmeriCorps project in prisonreentry.
So that year I was in and outof different facilities, I was
at probation and parole, so likeI was really hands on.
I was working for a nonprofitthat was doing mentoring, trying
to get mentors, trying torecruit people, trying to
explain what the program is forpeople that were coming out of
(06:15):
prison.
It was just really all in meLike I just had so much energy
and passion for this topic, sowhen I started my program in
2011, I had to start off withwriting about it, and so that
was my journey.
So now here I am a professorand that is one of my main areas
(06:38):
of interest.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
That is so.
Here's the thing.
So you just said how we were atthe same conference.
Even though don't remember me,which is fine, I don't think I
remember me either.
Maybe I don't know maybe I wasit.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Was it the one in chicago?
Speaker 2 (06:58):
and neither of you remember me.
So they're, they're there there.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
You had so many people there.
I mean, they did such anamazing job.
Let's just say you were havingsuch invigorating, energizing
conversations that we just maybecrossed paths.
How about that?
Speaker 2 (07:19):
Maybe.
But what's interesting, though,even though we may not remember
each other, in 2009, thedegrees of separation are so
small in our field because thereare so many, so little few of
us there are represented in thisspace.
And you know, I've known you,I've collaborated with you, I've
commiserated with you, and Inever knew this part about your
(07:42):
passion and your pathway, knewthis part about your passion and
your pathway.
So that's what I think is socool about this space with top
five yeah, that we get to reallyknow about the human being, the
part that their purpose, theirjourney, what got them to this
point.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
so I've yeah even even.
It's just, it's people who wewe know who we see every year
conferences interact with, andthen they come on the show and
we're like, oh my God, I had noidea right, we learned so much
about them.
We didn't know.
And thank you for talking aboutthe PhD project again.
Shout out to PhD project.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
Thanks, yeah, phd project Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
Well, in that vein, in learning some more about you,
can you share an accomplishmentor project or an event related
to DEI that you helped to planor work on, or that you're
currently working on, thatyou're really proud of and you
believe it's important to share?
Speaker 3 (08:49):
in this space, right.
So that first paper that Iworked on I was able to start
that in 2011 and get thatpublished in 2015.
And that was really the firsttime.
So I presented that at ourconference, Academy of
Management, AOM, in 2012.
And the reception was reallypositive.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Can you remind us of the title, because we want to be
able to share a link to it too.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
Yeah, so it was hiring ex-offenders, so we don't
use that term anymore, but atthe time that was very commonly
used, like even when I wasworking with the nonprofit that
seemed to be the preferredlanguage, and it was hiring
ex-offenders a theoretical model, and it was with Gary Powell.
(09:32):
So he was my advisor at thetime at the University of
Connecticut and I have to, youknow, thank him for letting me
just kind of flow with it right.
Because this was not his area atall, but he kind of just let me
just go for it and it was great, right, like that was a really
positive experience for mebecause it allowed me to just
(09:54):
open the conversation, right.
So DEI has so much in it, right, and I know that right now
there's like this huge attackhappening on DEI and I am really
confused about it, because DEIinvolves everyone, right, and I
just wish people would kind ofjust be very specific and call
(10:16):
it out, because what I'm sayingis just a lot of attacks on
anything people perceive to berace based, you know, and that's
really where the main thingrace-based.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Race-based Gender.
Like when they said they took Ididn't mean to cut you off, but
I just remember being on theDepartment of Defense took
Jackie Robinson's name down.
I'm like so how is this a DEIthing?
Is it just because he's Black?
Or like let's be real about it.
Like this wasn't a a dei effort, like you can't just be just
because somebody is black or gayor woman, like oh, that's dei,
(10:50):
erase, cancel what they're notlike.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
That's what they're not like, right, they?
They were just going throughthe word.
I mean even the keyword thatthey're using.
You know it's like women, orwhat does that even mean?
You're going to take that stuffoff because half of us are
women.
I mean, like it's crazy.
So why would somebody not wantto be included when they go to
(11:15):
work?
Why does somebody you know, Imean, that's what inclusion is
right Like why does somebodywant to feel like they don't
belong in their workplace?
I'm just very confused by thewhole thing.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Furthermore, why are people okay with being, with
excluding someone else?
Yeah, because it makes themfeel better Like I feel like
people need to do someintrospective sitting with
themselves.
Just sit with yourself andthink about it.
That may be too hard, nurse Ty.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
Anyway, I don't want to reflect.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
I want to feel better .
Speaker 1 (11:52):
Yeah, and you know we don't do a good job of exposing
people to other people fromdifferent cultures and
backgrounds and things like that.
I mean I know people who feellike, oh, there's no reason for
me to travel outside of thecountry.
I mean you have people who feellike, oh, there's no reason for
me to travel outside of thecountry, I mean you have people
who have this.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
you know my open view , but anyway, I didn't mean to
interrupt.
They own little towns like live, like that.
Speaker 3 (12:12):
Exactly, it's very true too, and I find that
fascinating because I can't waitto travel, right, I love seeing
other cultures, I love tastingother food like, in my opinion,
american food is like the worstfood, it's so and then, just
like, I don't want any morechicken fingers but you know
(12:34):
when it's good, when it's good,dr, when there's a fusion, when
there's diversity.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
oh, I want to ask you though, uh, going back to your
study that you were really proudof, because I feel like there's
a learning opportunity formyself and maybe others that are
listening.
So, when you said we don't usethe term ex-offender anymore,
we've evolved from that, andthat's something that we've
noticed, that some people havebeen frustrated about that.
Language evolves, cultureevolves.
(13:09):
Terms that were okay andendearing at one point in life
aren't today, and so can youtell us what the proper
terminology is and maybe educateus on why we're not using ex
offender what we should be using?
Speaker 3 (13:24):
Yes, so what we really should be using is just
perfect.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Makes sense to me.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
So one of the other things I'm most proud of is the
last thing I worked on was oneof the conferences where I was
actually invited.
So it was like full circle forme, because you're in the
beginning, you know, you'repushing, pushing, and then in
the end I was actually invitedand asked to work on something
related to this topic, which isreally cool.
And so at this conference, itwas a mix of people who and who
(13:54):
were practitioners, researchers,like policy makers, like people
from the census and things likethat, and in the midst of that
were also people who don't havea background, a criminal
background, like me, and peoplewho do so.
At my table there was somebodywith a criminal background and
someone had asked him hey, how,how should we refer?
(14:16):
And he was like you can justcall me, and he gave his name.
He's like you can just call mejohn, you know, and it was like,
yeah, mind-blowing.
So people, persons, and because,again, this is something that
you did, it's not who, you areright, and, and so now what
we'll see is people that mayhave had some kind of justice
(14:39):
involvement.
So you'll see that criminalrecord, criminal history, but
just added on to person orpeople or individual Right Men,
women, like whatever it is.
So I know it's lengthy, I knowit's cumbersome, but I encourage
people.
You're right.
Terms change all the time, likecheck the census.
(14:59):
I mean black people used to bewe went through so many changes
color people we're ultimatelyconquering negro people.
We were mulatto people, we wereall these things and and now
here we are Black people orwhatever people want to be
called.
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
No, Go ahead, I don't want to talk over, go ahead.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
No, no, I'm sorry.
Well, no, go ahead, go ahead.
I just wanted to jump in withthe next question.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
This is a conversation that I have with my
future coworkers all the time.
This is a conversation that Ihave with my future co-workers
(15:58):
all the time.
We have a responsibility toimprove our industry and improve
the language, right?
So can you explain what you doBecause she may not be familiar
about with future co-workers andcolleagues in undergraduate
nursing programs and and as newgrads at the bedside?
I just recently just recentlyleft a bedside position, so I
still, yeah, and so this is aconversation I have with them.
One of the terminologies we useto talk about babies.
Don't say that anymore, right?
(16:18):
We don't want to insult ourpatients.
We don't want them to feeluncomfortable talking with their
health care providers becausethey're using terminology that
deems them less than human.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Keep private.
What's an example?
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Well, a specific example is those little spots on
the backs of babies, usuallybabies with more melanin.
So the old, outdated racistterminology is.
Mongolian spots right, what'sMongolian?
Mongolian spots right, what'sMongolian?
And so the terminology now isyou can just call them blue
(17:00):
spots, black spots you chartphysically what you see.
You can call them late grayneva, but whatever it is, you
don't use that outdatedterminology and it's just a
responsibility that we haveagain to move our industry
forward and not be stuck in thedregs of the past.
(17:23):
Oh my gosh, if, can you imagine, if we, if we were still back
in the times of Typhoid Mary?
And it's also an opportunity,you know we want to encourage
people to be brave andcourageous and respectful enough
to raise their hand and ask socan you explain to me why?
I mean because I had a legitquestion.
(17:45):
I didn't?
Speaker 3 (17:46):
That was a great question, right?
I love that question.
Yeah, I encourage my studentsto ask.
I tell them I'm pretty I lovethat question.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Yeah, I encourage my students to ask.
I tell them I'm pretty, I'mpretty open, so you're not going
to offend me, I'm like we heardit before.
So just so, I totally love that.
And what you taught me, Nicole,is that there are identities
that society can imprint on usthat we never agreed to us, that
we never agreed to.
I mean, it just became so clearwhen you said person.
I definitely wasn't doing thatto be like condescending, like
duh.
All y'all should know.
(18:21):
That was more about myself,Like I'm not a formerly
incarcerated person.
If I choose, if that was myhistory and I choose to adopt
that as part of my identity, aslike my own kind of healing and
how you know, so people can knowwho I'm speaking to, if there's
a purpose attached to it.
But no, thank you, society andother people.
I'll decide how I identify andhow I define myself.
(18:42):
Thank you very much.
So that's what that's.
That's all that went in my head.
You said that.
Speaker 3 (18:48):
I love that, I love that summary right there, and I
think that holds true for any ofthe identities right, because
we don't want to just be limitedto what other people think of
us.
So, if I choose, because thereare certain moments where we may
want to self-identify aswhatever the thing is and there
are certain moments where maybeno right, like that's just not
(19:11):
central to this particularcontext and that's you know, I'm
okay with that and that's agood, and that's the thing it's
about.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Who makes a decision.
The individual should be ableto choose when they decide to
self-identify in whatever waythey choose to they have that
freedom.
That right I know we have.
We still have about three morequestions left, but I do but I'm
curious, but I'm curious, uh,professor, I just want to.
Speaker 3 (19:37):
I think you have to have the control of being able
to disclose because that is onething that many individuals do
(20:02):
not necessarily have, that aremembers of this population.
Because, as you may know, whenyou fill out your job
application, there sometimes canbe that question to ask do you
have a criminal record?
Like however it is phrased, andwhat will happen is people that
answer dishonestly, if they runthe background check, or if
(20:25):
they find out later, theemployer will fire you, and so
there's a risk there.
Some people will be willing totake that because maybe they
just really need the money andthey know that they're going to
get fired in a couple of weeks,but they need that check right
now.
Some states, jurisdictions,have removed that question about
like even asking if somebodyhas a criminal background, and
(20:48):
that has seen some mixed resultstoo, right, so you would think,
ok, okay, that may open thefloodgates, but you know, what's
been happening in some cases ispeople then are making
judgments about if this personmay be likely to have a criminal
background because of anotheridentity, right?
So if I know that many blackmen tend to have a criminal
background and I've got someblack men on the resume and for
(21:12):
this job and I don't ask thatquestion anymore I may assume
that maybe I'll use your name,jamal may fall into that
category, right, and so we'reseeing that in some research too
.
So that's been disappointing,but there's also like some
offsets to that.
So I know I had worked on apaper with another former MDSA
(21:35):
PhD project person, dr KatrinaJohnson, and we interviewed
people that had gone on tocollege and gotten their
master's Even a couple wereworking on PhDs and they felt
really confident and had noproblem just saying, yeah, this
is what I did, this is not who Iam, and if that's a problem,
(21:56):
that's a problem for you, notfor me, and I'm willing to just
move on to an opportunity whereyou're going to take me in the
whole person.
So it just runs the gamut Right, just like other identities
that might be more invisible.
You know, where people somespaces, they're kind of trying
to conceal it, and then otherplaces where people some spaces,
they're kind of trying toconceal it, and then other
places where people are veryupfront and saying like this is
(22:16):
who, this is what I did, take itor leave it, kind of thing.
So it's very interesting.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
That is interesting.
Thanks for sharing that.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Yeah, that was a great question.
I remember because before I wasan academic I was an HR manager
and you know people would askme like, okay, no one asks you
when you they see you check thatbox, they don't ask why or what
the circumstances was or youknow, not that it's any of their
business, but theyautomatically it takes you out
(22:46):
of the running.
So what should I do?
And dang, this is a real issue,so I know.
One thing that I've been seeingthat I appreciate is when and
and you can let me know if thiseven matters there's.
I noticed that some employersare open to what I've seen as
fair chance love the fair chancehiring yeah so are they?
(23:08):
are they legit?
Is it legit or?
Speaker 3 (23:10):
is it just am I just saying it?
And so that's one thing thatwas really cool about this
conference.
So I will big up even companiesthat you would not think.
Like JP Morgan, they have afair chance hiring initiative
and have and continue to hireindividuals that have a criminal
background, and people areshocked because they're always
(23:31):
like but their financialservices, and you know, they
have all these regulations andI'm like well, jpmorgan JPMorgan
is huge.
If they can figure out how to dothis, you can certainly figure
out how to do this.
What they do, right, like theylean fully into it.
(23:56):
Like I just placed an order forInside Out cookie they were
delicious, by the way and sothey fully support and promote
like it was started by someonewho was formerly incarcerated
and then that's who they want tohire, right.
And so they don't likenecessarily exclusively hire,
but like they definitely willhire.
So there are companies Dave'sKiller Bread, same thing, right.
So there are a lot of GreystonBakery, another one, like.
(24:18):
So there are many, manycompanies that are doing that
and leaning into fair chancehiring, which I think is great.
I think even the Body Shop isdoing it.
So the way that companiesreally have to approach it is.
If I'm asking these questionshow relevant is it to the job
Right?
Like I can, I can consider anoffense if it's relevant to the
(24:39):
position, right, and if it's notlike, why am I considering this
?
Speaker 2 (24:46):
Well, we, we have something that we, we like to do
because we're all about, youknow, increasing learning and
helping others.
We call it word of the day andso I feel like, for two years, a
fair chance, hiring, and thenwe can even share, like you know
, the list of the companies andnames so that people can know or
share with their loved onesthese opportunities that exist.
(25:07):
And then also the term of whenI said, well, what do you call
someone who was formerlyincarcerated Person?
Speaker 1 (25:15):
I was thinking the same thing.
That's the word of the dayPerson.
When they see the podcast,they'll still be like person.
What?
Why is that?
Speaker 2 (25:25):
They would never take that on and they really should
take that question off ofeverywhere.
I'm like the people on TikTokTake it off.
Because really, really, if thepresident can be, have a record,
I mean, what difference does itmake?
Speaker 3 (25:47):
We know that he, they are operating in a different
field of movement, the president, when it's the highest level of
security clearance, for allthings.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Now he on something do as I say, not as I do, type
of stuff.
It's a mouth.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
It's a mouth.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Moving forward.
Sorry, I'm in my feels becausemy heart goes out to those who
are unexpectedly displaced andhave lost jobs and are just kind
of like federal workers.
It's not like they're makingthe highest salary, they're
already doing it because theyfeel like they're doing a good
(26:31):
for public service.
So I just, my heartstrings justcome up for that, so I'm and
I'm feeling away and that's whatcame out, but I will move
forward.
Uh, have you ever become jaded,as clearly I was for a moment,
or have had negative thoughtsand doubts about the work you do
(26:52):
because of your knowledge ofthe stats, of the research and
any of the discriminatory,unnecessary incidents that you
are more aware of than others?
Speaker 3 (27:03):
yes, most definitely.
I would say this is very heavywork because you know that
there's real people and so ourfield right, we get evaluated a
lot by how many journals wepublish in or what journals they
are, and I totally get that,but that's never really been my
(27:27):
motivating factor, because Iwant people to actually be able
to use this and move forwardwith their life, I want
organizations to change theirpolicies, and so that is kind of
this frustration, because youkeep feeling like you're having
the same conversation over andover and over again for 10 plus
years, 15 years, and you don'treally see substantial change.
(27:49):
You also continue to see thenumbers of people that can get
locked up and get arrested.
I mean it is sad, right.
So at any point in time sinceI've been doing this, it's like
1.5 to2 million people that aregoing to be involved in the
criminal justice system on anyyear, and most of those people
are not going to be there forvery long.
A lot of those people mayalready be you.
(28:11):
They could be on probation,right, there's some kind of
community service, but somethingis in their background that's
going to prevent them fromgetting a job and be able to
support themselves, and that'sreally sad that people just
don't see the need.
So when there is a laborshortage, then all of a sudden
everybody's like now we can hire, right, so it's amazing.
(28:35):
When it's convenient fororganizations, then they lower
the barriers to entry Right.
And then all of a sudden, no,we have enough people raise them
again, right.
So it's just like when it'swhen it works for them, it's
great and when it doesn't forgetyou kind of attitude.
So it does take a lot of energyand I know I've had to step
(28:56):
back a couple of times like Ijust I need a break um, just a
lot how do you take care ofyourself?
oh, self-care.
Now I'm gonna quote my pelotoninstructors.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
I love peloton and that was one of my questions,
but I'm like right into the nextquestion.
Honestly, it it really leads tothe next question, and how do
you mitigate your stress?
Speaker 3 (29:22):
so yes, so I am a peloton enthusiast.
I actually just went up there,so I will quote them.
Self-care is not selfish, so Ido all things like I love the
yoga.
Now.
I never used to do yoga, nowI'm into it.
I do meditation, I have mybangerie.
(29:43):
Right, I don't send email aftera certain time.
I don't do emails on weekends.
I don't even check email fromcertain people that's real
important.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Certain people it's really like what do you mean?
You're gonna take me to a placeI'm not ready to go.
Speaker 3 (29:59):
I met all library candidates and said Black people
, I want people to come to workand tell you what they're not
going to do.
That is so mean, Like I'd be,like I'm not doing that, I'm not
going to that meeting, I'm notdoing that.
So I have definitely set upsome clear boundaries for myself
.
To you maintain my space wellthat is.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
That is important, I know, I know.
I have just one question.
Well, industrial, prisonindustry, like all of the
companies that are likebenefiting, do they hire?
Speaker 3 (30:31):
that's a great question.
That is a really great question, and you have a mixed bag here,
right?
And well, you see, I think itcould be a great way, I think it
would be immediate, right?
Yeah, that that's how I thinkabout it.
I'm like, hey, if you're gonna,because people do want, I mean,
(30:53):
think about it.
If you're in, if you'reincarcerated there all day and
I've heard this from many peoplethey're like they just want to
engage in something to helpbreak up the day.
I mean, because what are wedoing?
Right?
And so if any kind of trainingoffered, any kind of educational
opportunity offered, usuallymost people want to take
advantage of it, right.
And so when an organizationcomes in and says, hey, we're
(31:16):
providing a certification inthis or we're providing training
in this, people are like, yeah,ok, let's go, because this will
help me break up the day, maybeI can use this later for
something.
And they're pretty energeticand committed and will do the
thing.
So then, when they come home,yeah, it would be great if that
same organization would turnaround and was like hey, you did
(31:36):
literally the same job overhere, let's just hire you, right
.
But you don't always think that, and that is very frustrating.
There's a lot of companiesmaking a lot of money off the
whole system of incarceration.
Is that like modern day slavery?
The whole system ofincarceration?
Speaker 2 (31:56):
Is that like?
Speaker 3 (31:57):
modern day slavery.
Oh yeah, so there's an awfulbook.
It's like slavery by anothername.
That book.
I remember reading that yearsago.
That really set it off for me,because yes that's really what
happened after.
Slavery is a convict leasing,and so I still think of it in
that way.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
I mean, it's literally what that is, even a
constitution.
It's like you know, I can'trecall right now, but it's one
of the amendments I meanbasically it says that you know
slavery, except for if you'reincarcerated, if you're
basically all your rights aregone, you know.
But there is somebody.
(32:37):
I was watching the interview.
I can't recall his name.
If I, if I, if I find it out,I'll put it in the notes.
Speaker 3 (32:44):
It'll be great to have him as a guest.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
He has an organization where he actually
helps formerly incarceratedindividuals get back into work
and it starts with some of thosework programs that are in the
prison systems.
And it starts with some ofthose work programs that are in
the prison systems.
And so you know, I don't knowtoo much about it, but there are
some that are legit where theycan.
When they come out with thosecertifications, companies will
hire them.
But that needs to be formalizedand it needs to be like a
(33:07):
requirement requirement.
Speaker 3 (33:11):
Exactly Because I totally agree, I totally agree.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
Yeah, I completely agree.
Yeah, having come out of likeoil and gas industry here
recently and even inmanufacturing and I've served on
the human rights committees andI've had to go through all this
training about modern slavery.
But when we were talking aboutit, we were talking about it in
terms of children, in terms ofwhen we're working, you know, in
(33:33):
other countries and vulnerablepopulations and how we're
careful about it.
But when you were describing,I'm like, but I've never seen in
any of my trainings andobservation and discussions.
Let's talk about when companieschoose to leverage the talents
of people who are incarceratedhow?
if you're exploiting theirtalents beyond them because and
(33:56):
then you're not hiring them?
On the other side of that, that, that could be a form of you
indirectly perpetuating modernday slavery reminds me of back,
when I used to help people withtheir resumes.
Speaker 3 (34:17):
People are generally not just sitting around, they're
doing something while they'reincarcerated and many people are
gaining a lot of skills.
And those skills, thosecertificates, those programs
that they participate in, manyemployers do not value them at
all.
Right, and that's sad too.
I still remember having aconversation with someone.
He's like I got a stack of themand he really did like a folder
(34:37):
full of all these certificateshe got from all these different
programs he participated in andhe was like nobody cares about
this.
It's really damaging, right.
And so he came home feelingreally hopeful.
I did while I was incarcerated,I really took advantage of this
(35:07):
time and then you get out there, you start applying and you
just get shot down.
I mean, what do you expect isgoing to be positive, right?
So people did their time, theyserved, that's it, we're done,
we're home.
Now they need to continue onwith life, right.
Life costs money, so you haveto have a job.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
That's right, that's right.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
That's some of the concerns of our veterans, too,
as well.
Similarly, like, yeah, and thisis what we want our world to
see, that for those who areanti-DEI, who may just be
anti-Black, but when you putthis blanket statement of
anti-DEI, you're saying you'reanti.
Your cousin, who got caughtwith a Black woman that one time
(35:50):
and went to jail and now needsto go to work.
Speaker 1 (35:56):
No, that's true.
You know, people make a lot ofPeople who are differently abled
.
Yeah, I can't imagine all thedumb stuff I did, all the silly
things I did when I was younger.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
I would love to find, like where our agencies or
organizations, you know we caninvigorate the circular economy,
or those of us who areentrepreneurs and small business
owners that don't have, youknow, don't don't have to go
through a whole bunch of redtape and bureaucracy, they can
help put some people to work ina meaningful, human-centered,
(36:30):
valuing, reinforcing kind of waythey are made so.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
So now we get to the fun part, you know.
So you know, kind of add somelevity to this conversation.
First, also shout out to thoseformerly incarcerated who are
doing something to improve theirlives while they are in prison.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
Can I just tell y'all one thing Everyone deserves
second chances Yep, go ahead.
I just got to say I had a shoutout to my cousin so we talked
about how we got on our journeysof you know, our education PhDs
.
My cousin you know I was a Iused to always claim like I'm a
first gen college student andthen I thought I'm going to be
(37:11):
the first person in my familywith a PhD.
And then my cousin beat me tothe punch Formerly incarcerated,
went and like, showed up.
And person in my family with aPhD.
And then my cousin beat me tothe punch formerly incarcerated,
went and like, showed up andshowed out at University of
Wisconsin Madison and became myhero and he took his experience
and made that part of hisdissertation and his work.
He studied rehabilitativepsychology and he's now working
(37:34):
in the state of Louisiana to dosomething like how do we make
sure that we are helping peopleactually be rehabilitated and
reformed?
And so because it was on topic,I was like I just got a shout
out and it was because of hisexperience.
Like when life got hard for mein my first world challenges and
(37:55):
jerking I was able to live life.
But look at what he was able todo and overcome.
Speaker 3 (38:00):
That is amazing.
That is amazing.
That is definitely one of thesectors I will say.
And then we can do the funstuff that does seem to
consistently hire, right.
So think about social services,counselors, right, people that
are helping others that may havebeen on this path too.
So we see a lot of hiring inthat space.
So I got to big up any sector,nonprofit agency you know that's
(38:24):
in that space.
They, they consistently showout.
Speaker 2 (38:28):
And now I'm going to be quiet so we can get to the
fun stuff.
Dr J, you got it.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
All right, all right, all right.
So, nicole, yeah, you asked usto ask you what are your top
five movies and why.
Speaker 3 (38:49):
Okay, so I love movies, I love shows.
I believe art imitates life andlife art vice versa.
I also believe there's a lot oflife lessons in movies.
So I have a lot of movies Ilike.
This was really hard actuallyto narrow it down, but I had to
(39:09):
say to myself what movies, ifthey came on, no matter my mood,
that they came on, no matter mymood, like time of day, I will
stop what I'm doing and watch.
Okay, the first three may seemin a similar vein, but they each
have lessons.
It's the Godfather Good Lovingand A Bronze Tale.
(39:31):
So those three together theyhave some overlap of actors, but
those movies in particular,like I just have so many lines
and life lessons Wait, you saidthe Godfather, I missed it.
The Godfather Good Felons and ABroward's Tale.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
I'm sorry, I got excited.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
A mob kind of theme going on with you.
Speaker 3 (39:54):
It's too trifecta.
So these women I have such goodmemories.
So in my family we have, youknow, there's a lot of
stereotypes, stereotypicalimages of Black families, right,
A single mom, and thatcertainly does happen.
We do not really have that inmy family.
Everybody in my family ismarried.
We have like a half and halfmen, half, and you know, men and
(40:16):
women and I spent a lot of timewith my dad and my uncles and
this was a way for me to alsoconnect with them and it was
just like such a fun time.
I remember so, like I can alwaysreminisce with them.
Like a Bronsted came on duringThanksgiving weekend and I was
like yo stop, like fullthanksgiving weekend.
(40:38):
And I was like yo stop, likefull stop for christmas.
I was like, stop what we'redoing.
We got to watch a bronze tale.
You know the music, thesoundtrack, just everything, the
lines, the lessons, like Irecently used one of those
lessons for class in my head,though, in my head, yeah I think
I need you to give me a quote,a line that's like oh because,
you know how, like, sometimesyou have a student.
(40:58):
They're just kind of annoyingand you can take off like those
extra two points.
But you have to say, is thisreally worth it?
And then I thought back to whatSonny was trying to teach and
he was like look for $20, yougot this man out of your life
forever.
And I said for two points, thisstudent is out of my life for
the rest of the semester.
(41:19):
It's not worth it.
It is not worth it.
So I'd be applying these thingsin other contexts.
It's amazing.
Okay, so those are the first,my first three.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
Well, you even said it.
You sounded like a characterfrom the movie you know.
For two points.
You got them out of your life.
It's an offer you can't refuse.
Speaker 3 (41:37):
Number three and then fourth, one Holy separate Mouth
of X.
So this movie, no matter whenit comes out, where it is in the
movie.
I will just start when I'm doingit, just start watching it when
I read the book.
That book will always stickwith me and I was young when I
(41:58):
first read the book but ittotally shifted just so many
things in me, just like how Ithought about life.
And then when the movie comesout, I was definitely one of
those kids rocking the ex hatand the whole ex tank, like
everything.
I was all over it.
Love, love, love Malcolm X.
I love the story, I loveeverything about it.
So I know that whole movieforwards and backwards
Intersection of like other showslike Godfather and Harlan and
(42:21):
stuff like that, where itintersects with Malcolm X.
So anything like in that realmis all me.
And then, coming to America, itliterally rounds out my entire
five, the new one or the old one, the old one.
Speaker 1 (42:38):
Of course Classic.
Speaker 2 (42:40):
What is your favorite Coming to America line?
There's so many.
Speaker 3 (42:45):
But he's like that boy good.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
Oh yeah, the barbershop scenes.
Speaker 3 (42:50):
Oh my God, the barbershop, I mean it was just
amazing.
Just so many different scenesand these are big, like I was
just amazing.
Just so many different scenesand these are big, like I make
my kids.
A couple of American came on, Imade my kids, but yeah, no, but
there's so many great moviesout there I could have picked,
but anything, those are like mytop five.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
That's a good top five.
Yeah, all those movies, I knowI'm very familiar.
Those are some great movies.
You know, when you started withthe first three I was I was
wondering if you're going to addScarface in there.
You know.
Speaker 3 (43:23):
Scarface is one of my classics and I used to watch
that movie.
As I go through withdrawal fromthe NFL season Every Sunday, I
would put on Scarface because Ijust didn't know what to do with
myself.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
You had a whole routine.
Speaker 3 (43:39):
I did.
I was like it's Scarface time.
Speaker 2 (43:41):
Listen, you know the Godfather.
When I was doing my MBA atUniversity of Florida, I took Dr
Henry Tosi I don't know if youall are familiar with Dr Tosi
and the whole class was powerand influence.
It was all about the Godfather.
Speaker 3 (43:58):
That makes sense.
Speaker 1 (43:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (44:00):
Power and influence.
That was like succession beforesuccession.
Mm-hmm, it's an amazing movie.
Speaker 1 (44:09):
Well, dr Young, that was a great way for us to close
this episode.
Thank you so much for joiningus today.
This was a great conversation,great.
You so much for joining ustoday.
This was this is a greatconversation, great conversation
.
Speaker 3 (44:18):
Thanks for having me.
This was fun, Dyer.
Speaker 1 (44:23):
Yeah, I'm glad you enjoyed it.
Glad you enjoyed it To ourlisteners out there.
Thank you for joining us forthis episode of Top 5 DEI.
Please like share, subscribe.
Speaker 2 (44:35):
And subscribe.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
You know, buy us a cup of coffee that right there.
Exactly exactly all of theabove and peace out from DrJ.
Speaker 2 (44:47):
Dr Miller, aka the Petty Professor, and tonight
Nurse.
Time.
Hello, good people.
Welcome to Top 5 DEI, thepremier podcast for and about
folks who cultivate diversity,equity, inclusion in their craft
.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
I'm your host, Dr J, and I'm here with Dr Miller, aka
the Petty Professor, and I'mTanae Lambert Nurse Ty.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
And I want to thank you all for joining us for
today's special guest, dr NicoleC Jones-Young.
Dr Nicole C Jones-Young is anassociate professor of
organizational behavior atFranklin and Marshall College in
Lancaster, pennsylvania InTexas.
Sometimes we call it.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Lancaster, lancaster.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Lancaster.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Lancaster.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
That's right.
Lancaster right.
But I'm from Chicago originally, so I'm going to say Lancaster,
Pennsylvania, that's fair.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
I'm from New York originally, so I have no claim
to.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Her scholarship is concentrated in the areas of
diversity, equity andorganizational inclusion, with a
specific focus on theemployment experiences of
individuals who possess acriminal history.
Dr Young has published numerousacademic journals and journal
articles, including two booksNow Hiring a Manager's Guide to
Employing Applicants with aCriminal History and Employing
(01:19):
Our Returning Citizens anEmployer-Centric View.
She has taught courses inorganizational behavior, human
resources, organizationalinclusion and sports management,
and she earned her PhD from theUniversity of Connecticut, her
MBA from Fairleigh DickinsonUniversity and her bachelor's
from Towson University.
Please help me welcome DrNicole C Jones-Young.
(01:42):
Help me welcome Dr Nicole.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
C Jones-Young, dr Jones-Young, thanks for being
here.
Thank you all for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Welcome, welcome.
Yes, the pleasure is truly ours.
We are such fans of your workand how you highlight the
experiences of our vulnerablepopulations and those most
marginalized and teach us andshow us, not just in scholarship
(02:10):
but also in practicalapplication, how we can make the
world a little better forpeople who deserve and need a
shot.
Oh, that's nice.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
I like it.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
And we got to put spec on the name and give
flowers while you're here, right?
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Yes, what they say yeah, so please tell us how did
you get into your field, if youcould walk us through your
journey of how you got to thispoint in life.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Okay, so I went to Towson.
I was a sports management major.
I came out, I worked for theNew Jersey Nets so I'm already
dating myself a little bitbecause they're obviously now in
Brooklyn but I wanted to moveinto human resources and,
believe it or not, we didn'thave an HR department.
So I decided to go back for myMBA in HR and thought I needed
(02:59):
some more like hands-onexperience.
So I started volunteering withthis organization that helps
people who are currentlyunhoused and they had a computer
lab and they needed help withlike resume review and you know,
mock interviewing, like allthose things, job searching, and
so I would go there once a weekand help different people that
(03:22):
would come in and I startednoticing, kind of every now and
then I would get somebody thatseemed like they had a gap in
their experience and so andusually that gap was some way
shape or form attributed tocriminal justice system.
So, moving on, you know I movedinto HR.
I still kept volunteering.
(03:43):
I started volunteering with thisorganization called New York
Cares and most of the projects Idid were again with people that
had some way shape or forminvolvement with the criminal
justice system.
So they would have gaps intheir resume.
They would ask me how theycould explain those gaps in
their resume, gaps in theirresume.
(04:03):
They would ask me how theycould explain those gaps in
their resume.
We would try to translate whatthey did while they were locked
up to how it could look on theirresume.
So, doing all this maneuveringin their resume and it just made
me just really aware and acute.
So I definitely knew people whohad been arrested.
I knew people that had beenincarcerated.
But just sitting with peoplethat I didn't know, week after
(04:27):
week after week, and they'recoming in, I was just like this
is crazy.
So I was starting to get morepassionate about that than my
job.
And at some point someone fromI was in the National Black MBA
Association in New York.
Somebody told me hey, you everheard of this PhD project?
I think you'd really like this,nicole.
So I attended the PhD projectconference in 2009.
(04:51):
And, full disclosure, I am Idon't know if any of you were
there at the same time I wasn'tthere, I was there.
So we didn't meet each otheruntil later.
But and full disclosure, I'mreally frustrated right now
maybe we'll talk about thislater with, uh, all the heat
(05:12):
that the PhD project is taking.
There's an amazing organizationlike I would have never known
what a PhD was had it not beenfor the PhD project.
Right, friends?
I mean, that's the wholepurpose of it is to just get
people like me, like you, thatwere working, that may not have
had any previous researchexperience, to just know what
(05:32):
academia is.
I never thought about it beforeand when I left from there I
was like, okay, I'm a pivot, I'mgoing to apply for a PhD and
I'm going to do this thing.
And what I did was, while I wasapplying and like retaking and
taking and retaking again theGMAT, I decided to do a one year
(05:54):
AmeriCorps project in prisonreentry.
So that year I was in and outof different facilities, I was
at probation and parole, so likeI was really hands on.
I was working for a nonprofitthat was doing mentoring, trying
to get mentors, trying torecruit people, trying to
explain what the program is forpeople that were coming out of
(06:15):
prison.
It was just really all in meLike I just had so much energy
and passion for this topic, sowhen I started my program in
2011, I had to start off withwriting about it, and so that
was my journey.
So now here I am a professorand that is one of my main areas
(06:38):
of interest.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
That is so.
Here's the thing.
So you just said how we were atthe same conference.
Even though don't remember me,which is fine, I don't think I
remember me either.
Maybe I don't know maybe I wasit.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Was it the one in chicago?
Speaker 2 (06:58):
and neither of you remember me.
So they're, they're there there.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
You had so many people there.
I mean, they did such anamazing job.
Let's just say you were havingsuch invigorating, energizing
conversations that we just maybecrossed paths.
How about that?
Speaker 2 (07:19):
Maybe.
But what's interesting, though,even though we may not remember
each other, in 2009, thedegrees of separation are so
small in our field because thereare so many, so little few of
us there are represented in thisspace.
And you know, I've known you,I've collaborated with you, I've
commiserated with you, and Inever knew this part about your
(07:42):
passion and your pathway, knewthis part about your passion and
your pathway.
So that's what I think is socool about this space with top
five yeah, that we get to reallyknow about the human being, the
part that their purpose, theirjourney, what got them to this
point.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
so I've yeah even even.
It's just, it's people who wewe know who we see every year
conferences interact with, andthen they come on the show and
we're like, oh my God, I had noidea right, we learned so much
about them.
We didn't know.
And thank you for talking aboutthe PhD project again.
Shout out to PhD project.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
Thanks, yeah, phd project Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
Well, in that vein, in learning some more about you,
can you share an accomplishmentor project or an event related
to DEI that you helped to planor work on, or that you're
currently working on, thatyou're really proud of and you
believe it's important to share?
Speaker 3 (08:49):
in this space, right.
So that first paper that Iworked on I was able to start
that in 2011 and get thatpublished in 2015.
And that was really the firsttime.
So I presented that at ourconference, Academy of
Management, AOM, in 2012.
And the reception was reallypositive.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Can you remind us of the title, because we want to be
able to share a link to it too.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
Yeah, so it was hiring ex-offenders, so we don't
use that term anymore, but atthe time that was very commonly
used, like even when I wasworking with the nonprofit that
seemed to be the preferredlanguage, and it was hiring
ex-offenders a theoretical model, and it was with Gary Powell.
(09:32):
So he was my advisor at thetime at the University of
Connecticut and I have to, youknow, thank him for letting me
just kind of flow with it right.
Because this was not his area atall, but he kind of just let me
just go for it and it was great, right, like that was a really
positive experience for mebecause it allowed me to just
(09:54):
open the conversation, right.
So DEI has so much in it, right, and I know that right now
there's like this huge attackhappening on DEI and I am really
confused about it, because DEIinvolves everyone, right, and I
just wish people would kind ofjust be very specific and call
(10:16):
it out, because what I'm sayingis just a lot of attacks on
anything people perceive to berace based, you know, and that's
really where the main thingrace-based.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Race-based Gender.
Like when they said they took Ididn't mean to cut you off, but
I just remember being on theDepartment of Defense took
Jackie Robinson's name down.
I'm like so how is this a DEIthing?
Is it just because he's Black?
Or like let's be real about it.
Like this wasn't a a dei effort, like you can't just be just
because somebody is black or gayor woman, like oh, that's dei,
(10:50):
erase, cancel what they're notlike.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
That's what they're not like, right, they?
They were just going throughthe word.
I mean even the keyword thatthey're using.
You know it's like women, orwhat does that even mean?
You're going to take that stuffoff because half of us are
women.
I mean, like it's crazy.
So why would somebody not wantto be included when they go to
(11:15):
work?
Why does somebody you know, Imean, that's what inclusion is
right Like why does somebodywant to feel like they don't
belong in their workplace?
I'm just very confused by thewhole thing.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Furthermore, why are people okay with being, with
excluding someone else?
Yeah, because it makes themfeel better Like I feel like
people need to do someintrospective sitting with
themselves.
Just sit with yourself andthink about it.
That may be too hard, nurse Ty.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
Anyway, I don't want to reflect.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
I want to feel better .
Speaker 1 (11:52):
Yeah, and you know we don't do a good job of exposing
people to other people fromdifferent cultures and
backgrounds and things like that.
I mean I know people who feellike, oh, there's no reason for
me to travel outside of thecountry.
I mean you have people who feellike, oh, there's no reason for
me to travel outside of thecountry, I mean you have people
who have this.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
you know my open view , but anyway, I didn't mean to
interrupt.
They own little towns like live, like that.
Speaker 3 (12:12):
Exactly, it's very true too, and I find that
fascinating because I can't waitto travel, right, I love seeing
other cultures, I love tastingother food like, in my opinion,
american food is like the worstfood, it's so and then, just
like, I don't want any morechicken fingers but you know
(12:34):
when it's good, when it's good,dr, when there's a fusion, when
there's diversity.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
oh, I want to ask you though, uh, going back to your
study that you were really proudof, because I feel like there's
a learning opportunity formyself and maybe others that are
listening.
So, when you said we don't usethe term ex-offender anymore,
we've evolved from that, andthat's something that we've
noticed, that some people havebeen frustrated about that.
Language evolves, cultureevolves.
(13:09):
Terms that were okay andendearing at one point in life
aren't today, and so can youtell us what the proper
terminology is and maybe educateus on why we're not using ex
offender what we should be using?
Speaker 3 (13:24):
Yes, so what we really should be using is just
perfect.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Makes sense to me.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
So one of the other things I'm most proud of is the
last thing I worked on was oneof the conferences where I was
actually invited.
So it was like full circle forme, because you're in the
beginning, you know, you'repushing, pushing, and then in
the end I was actually invitedand asked to work on something
related to this topic, which isreally cool.
And so at this conference, itwas a mix of people who and who
(13:54):
were practitioners, researchers,like policy makers, like people
from the census and things likethat, and in the midst of that
were also people who don't havea background, a criminal
background, like me, and peoplewho do so.
At my table there was somebodywith a criminal background and
someone had asked him hey, how,how should we refer?
(14:16):
And he was like you can justcall me, and he gave his name.
He's like you can just call mejohn, you know, and it was like,
yeah, mind-blowing.
So people, persons, and because,again, this is something that
you did, it's not who, you areright, and, and so now what
we'll see is people that mayhave had some kind of justice
(14:39):
involvement.
So you'll see that criminalrecord, criminal history, but
just added on to person orpeople or individual Right Men,
women, like whatever it is.
So I know it's lengthy, I knowit's cumbersome, but I encourage
people.
You're right.
Terms change all the time, likecheck the census.
(14:59):
I mean black people used to bewe went through so many changes
color people we're ultimatelyconquering negro people.
We were mulatto people, we wereall these things and and now
here we are Black people orwhatever people want to be
called.
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
No, Go ahead, I don't want to talk over, go ahead.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
No, no, I'm sorry.
Well, no, go ahead, go ahead.
I just wanted to jump in withthe next question.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
This is a conversation that I have with my
future coworkers all the time.
This is a conversation that Ihave with my future co-workers
(15:58):
all the time.
We have a responsibility toimprove our industry and improve
the language, right?
So can you explain what you doBecause she may not be familiar
about with future co-workers andcolleagues in undergraduate
nursing programs and and as newgrads at the bedside?
I just recently just recentlyleft a bedside position, so I
still, yeah, and so this is aconversation I have with them.
One of the terminologies we useto talk about babies.
Don't say that anymore, right?
(16:18):
We don't want to insult ourpatients.
We don't want them to feeluncomfortable talking with their
health care providers becausethey're using terminology that
deems them less than human.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Keep private.
What's an example?
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Well, a specific example is those little spots on
the backs of babies, usuallybabies with more melanin.
So the old, outdated racistterminology is.
Mongolian spots right, what'sMongolian?
Mongolian spots right, what'sMongolian?
And so the terminology now isyou can just call them blue
(17:00):
spots, black spots you chartphysically what you see.
You can call them late grayneva, but whatever it is, you
don't use that outdatedterminology and it's just a
responsibility that we haveagain to move our industry
forward and not be stuck in thedregs of the past.
(17:23):
Oh my gosh, if, can you imagine, if we, if we were still back
in the times of Typhoid Mary?
And it's also an opportunity,you know we want to encourage
people to be brave andcourageous and respectful enough
to raise their hand and ask socan you explain to me why?
I mean because I had a legitquestion.
(17:45):
I didn't?
Speaker 3 (17:46):
That was a great question, right?
I love that question.
Yeah, I encourage my studentsto ask.
I tell them I'm pretty I lovethat question.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Yeah, I encourage my students to ask.
I tell them I'm pretty, I'mpretty open, so you're not going
to offend me, I'm like we heardit before.
So just so, I totally love that.
And what you taught me, Nicole,is that there are identities
that society can imprint on usthat we never agreed to us, that
we never agreed to.
I mean, it just became so clearwhen you said person.
I definitely wasn't doing thatto be like condescending, like
duh.
All y'all should know.
(18:21):
That was more about myself,Like I'm not a formerly
incarcerated person.
If I choose, if that was myhistory and I choose to adopt
that as part of my identity, aslike my own kind of healing and
how you know, so people can knowwho I'm speaking to, if there's
a purpose attached to it.
But no, thank you, society andother people.
I'll decide how I identify andhow I define myself.
(18:42):
Thank you very much.
So that's what that's.
That's all that went in my head.
You said that.
Speaker 3 (18:48):
I love that, I love that summary right there, and I
think that holds true for any ofthe identities right, because
we don't want to just be limitedto what other people think of
us.
So, if I choose, because thereare certain moments where we may
want to self-identify aswhatever the thing is and there
are certain moments where maybeno right, like that's just not
(19:11):
central to this particularcontext and that's you know, I'm
okay with that and that's agood, and that's the thing it's
about.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Who makes a decision.
The individual should be ableto choose when they decide to
self-identify in whatever waythey choose to they have that
freedom.
That right I know we have.
We still have about three morequestions left, but I do but I'm
curious, but I'm curious, uh,professor, I just want to.
Speaker 3 (19:37):
I think you have to have the control of being able
to disclose because that is onething that many individuals do
(20:02):
not necessarily have, that aremembers of this population.
Because, as you may know, whenyou fill out your job
application, there sometimes canbe that question to ask do you
have a criminal record?
Like however it is phrased, andwhat will happen is people that
answer dishonestly, if they runthe background check, or if
(20:25):
they find out later, theemployer will fire you, and so
there's a risk there.
Some people will be willing totake that because maybe they
just really need the money andthey know that they're going to
get fired in a couple of weeks,but they need that check right
now.
Some states, jurisdictions,have removed that question about
like even asking if somebodyhas a criminal background, and
(20:48):
that has seen some mixed resultstoo, right, so you would think,
ok, okay, that may open thefloodgates, but you know, what's
been happening in some cases ispeople then are making
judgments about if this personmay be likely to have a criminal
background because of anotheridentity, right?
So if I know that many blackmen tend to have a criminal
background and I've got someblack men on the resume and for
(21:12):
this job and I don't ask thatquestion anymore I may assume
that maybe I'll use your name,jamal may fall into that
category, right, and so we'reseeing that in some research too
.
So that's been disappointing,but there's also like some
offsets to that.
So I know I had worked on apaper with another former MDSA
(21:35):
PhD project person, dr KatrinaJohnson, and we interviewed
people that had gone on tocollege and gotten their
master's Even a couple wereworking on PhDs and they felt
really confident and had noproblem just saying, yeah, this
is what I did, this is not who Iam, and if that's a problem,
(21:56):
that's a problem for you, notfor me, and I'm willing to just
move on to an opportunity whereyou're going to take me in the
whole person.
So it just runs the gamut Right, just like other identities
that might be more invisible.
You know, where people somespaces, they're kind of trying
to conceal it, and then otherplaces where people some spaces,
they're kind of trying toconceal it, and then other
places where people are veryupfront and saying like this is
(22:16):
who, this is what I did, take itor leave it, kind of thing.
So it's very interesting.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
That is interesting.
Thanks for sharing that.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Yeah, that was a great question.
I remember because before I wasan academic I was an HR manager
and you know people would askme like, okay, no one asks you
when you they see you check thatbox, they don't ask why or what
the circumstances was or youknow, not that it's any of their
business, but theyautomatically it takes you out
(22:46):
of the running.
So what should I do?
And dang, this is a real issue,so I know.
One thing that I've been seeingthat I appreciate is when and
and you can let me know if thiseven matters there's.
I noticed that some employersare open to what I've seen as
fair chance love the fair chancehiring yeah so are they?
(23:08):
are they legit?
Is it legit or?
Speaker 3 (23:10):
is it just am I just saying it?
And so that's one thing thatwas really cool about this
conference.
So I will big up even companiesthat you would not think.
Like JP Morgan, they have afair chance hiring initiative
and have and continue to hireindividuals that have a criminal
background, and people areshocked because they're always
(23:31):
like but their financialservices, and you know, they
have all these regulations andI'm like well, jpmorgan JPMorgan
is huge.
If they can figure out how to dothis, you can certainly figure
out how to do this.
What they do, right, like theylean fully into it.
(23:56):
Like I just placed an order forInside Out cookie they were
delicious, by the way and sothey fully support and promote
like it was started by someonewho was formerly incarcerated
and then that's who they want tohire, right.
And so they don't likenecessarily exclusively hire,
but like they definitely willhire.
So there are companies Dave'sKiller Bread, same thing, right.
So there are a lot of GreystonBakery, another one, like.
(24:18):
So there are many, manycompanies that are doing that
and leaning into fair chancehiring, which I think is great.
I think even the Body Shop isdoing it.
So the way that companiesreally have to approach it is.
If I'm asking these questionshow relevant is it to the job
Right?
Like I can, I can consider anoffense if it's relevant to the
(24:39):
position, right, and if it's notlike, why am I considering this
?
Speaker 2 (24:46):
Well, we, we have something that we, we like to do
because we're all about, youknow, increasing learning and
helping others.
We call it word of the day andso I feel like, for two years, a
fair chance, hiring, and thenwe can even share, like you know
, the list of the companies andnames so that people can know or
share with their loved onesthese opportunities that exist.
(25:07):
And then also the term of whenI said, well, what do you call
someone who was formerlyincarcerated Person?
Speaker 1 (25:15):
I was thinking the same thing.
That's the word of the dayPerson.
When they see the podcast,they'll still be like person.
What?
Why is that?
Speaker 2 (25:25):
They would never take that on and they really should
take that question off ofeverywhere.
I'm like the people on TikTokTake it off.
Because really, really, if thepresident can be, have a record,
I mean, what difference does itmake?
Speaker 3 (25:47):
We know that he, they are operating in a different
field of movement, the president, when it's the highest level of
security clearance, for allthings.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Now he on something do as I say, not as I do, type
of stuff.
It's a mouth.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
It's a mouth.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Moving forward.
Sorry, I'm in my feels becausemy heart goes out to those who
are unexpectedly displaced andhave lost jobs and are just kind
of like federal workers.
It's not like they're makingthe highest salary, they're
already doing it because theyfeel like they're doing a good
(26:31):
for public service.
So I just, my heartstrings justcome up for that, so I'm and
I'm feeling away and that's whatcame out, but I will move
forward.
Uh, have you ever become jaded,as clearly I was for a moment,
or have had negative thoughtsand doubts about the work you do
(26:52):
because of your knowledge ofthe stats, of the research and
any of the discriminatory,unnecessary incidents that you
are more aware of than others?
Speaker 3 (27:03):
yes, most definitely.
I would say this is very heavywork because you know that
there's real people and so ourfield right, we get evaluated a
lot by how many journals wepublish in or what journals they
are, and I totally get that,but that's never really been my
(27:27):
motivating factor, because Iwant people to actually be able
to use this and move forwardwith their life, I want
organizations to change theirpolicies, and so that is kind of
this frustration, because youkeep feeling like you're having
the same conversation over andover and over again for 10 plus
years, 15 years, and you don'treally see substantial change.
(27:49):
You also continue to see thenumbers of people that can get
locked up and get arrested.
I mean it is sad, right.
So at any point in time sinceI've been doing this, it's like
1.5 to2 million people that aregoing to be involved in the
criminal justice system on anyyear, and most of those people
are not going to be there forvery long.
A lot of those people mayalready be you.
(28:11):
They could be on probation,right, there's some kind of
community service, but somethingis in their background that's
going to prevent them fromgetting a job and be able to
support themselves, and that'sreally sad that people just
don't see the need.
So when there is a laborshortage, then all of a sudden
everybody's like now we can hire, right, so it's amazing.
(28:35):
When it's convenient fororganizations, then they lower
the barriers to entry Right.
And then all of a sudden, no,we have enough people raise them
again, right.
So it's just like when it'swhen it works for them, it's
great and when it doesn't forgetyou kind of attitude.
So it does take a lot of energyand I know I've had to step
(28:56):
back a couple of times like Ijust I need a break um, just a
lot how do you take care ofyourself?
oh, self-care.
Now I'm gonna quote my pelotoninstructors.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
I love peloton and that was one of my questions,
but I'm like right into the nextquestion.
Honestly, it it really leads tothe next question, and how do
you mitigate your stress?
Speaker 3 (29:22):
so yes, so I am a peloton enthusiast.
I actually just went up there,so I will quote them.
Self-care is not selfish, so Ido all things like I love the
yoga.
Now.
I never used to do yoga, nowI'm into it.
I do meditation, I have mybangerie.
(29:43):
Right, I don't send email aftera certain time.
I don't do emails on weekends.
I don't even check email fromcertain people that's real
important.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Certain people it's really like what do you mean?
You're gonna take me to a placeI'm not ready to go.
Speaker 3 (29:59):
I met all library candidates and said Black people
, I want people to come to workand tell you what they're not
going to do.
That is so mean, Like I'd be,like I'm not doing that, I'm not
going to that meeting, I'm notdoing that.
So I have definitely set upsome clear boundaries for myself
.
To you maintain my space wellthat is.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
That is important, I know, I know.
I have just one question.
Well, industrial, prisonindustry, like all of the
companies that are likebenefiting, do they hire?
Speaker 3 (30:31):
that's a great question.
That is a really great question, and you have a mixed bag here,
right?
And well, you see, I think itcould be a great way, I think it
would be immediate, right?
Yeah, that that's how I thinkabout it.
I'm like, hey, if you're gonna,because people do want, I mean,
(30:53):
think about it.
If you're in, if you'reincarcerated there all day and
I've heard this from many peoplethey're like they just want to
engage in something to helpbreak up the day.
I mean, because what are wedoing?
Right?
And so if any kind of trainingoffered, any kind of educational
opportunity offered, usuallymost people want to take
advantage of it, right.
And so when an organizationcomes in and says, hey, we're
(31:16):
providing a certification inthis or we're providing training
in this, people are like, yeah,ok, let's go, because this will
help me break up the day, maybeI can use this later for
something.
And they're pretty energeticand committed and will do the
thing.
So then, when they come home,yeah, it would be great if that
same organization would turnaround and was like hey, you did
(31:36):
literally the same job overhere, let's just hire you, right
.
But you don't always think that, and that is very frustrating.
There's a lot of companiesmaking a lot of money off the
whole system of incarceration.
Is that like modern day slavery?
The whole system ofincarceration?
Speaker 2 (31:56):
Is that like?
Speaker 3 (31:57):
modern day slavery.
Oh yeah, so there's an awfulbook.
It's like slavery by anothername.
That book.
I remember reading that yearsago.
That really set it off for me,because yes that's really what
happened after.
Slavery is a convict leasing,and so I still think of it in
that way.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
I mean, it's literally what that is, even a
constitution.
It's like you know, I can'trecall right now, but it's one
of the amendments I meanbasically it says that you know
slavery, except for if you'reincarcerated, if you're
basically all your rights aregone, you know.
But there is somebody.
(32:37):
I was watching the interview.
I can't recall his name.
If I, if I, if I find it out,I'll put it in the notes.
Speaker 3 (32:44):
It'll be great to have him as a guest.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
He has an organization where he actually
helps formerly incarceratedindividuals get back into work
and it starts with some of thosework programs that are in the
prison systems.
And it starts with some ofthose work programs that are in
the prison systems.
And so you know, I don't knowtoo much about it, but there are
some that are legit where theycan.
When they come out with thosecertifications, companies will
hire them.
But that needs to be formalizedand it needs to be like a
(33:07):
requirement requirement.
Speaker 3 (33:11):
Exactly Because I totally agree, I totally agree.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
Yeah, I completely agree.
Yeah, having come out of likeoil and gas industry here
recently and even inmanufacturing and I've served on
the human rights committees andI've had to go through all this
training about modern slavery.
But when we were talking aboutit, we were talking about it in
terms of children, in terms ofwhen we're working, you know, in
(33:33):
other countries and vulnerablepopulations and how we're
careful about it.
But when you were describing,I'm like, but I've never seen in
any of my trainings andobservation and discussions.
Let's talk about when companieschoose to leverage the talents
of people who are incarceratedhow?
if you're exploiting theirtalents beyond them because and
(33:56):
then you're not hiring them?
On the other side of that, that, that could be a form of you
indirectly perpetuating modernday slavery reminds me of back,
when I used to help people withtheir resumes.
Speaker 3 (34:17):
People are generally not just sitting around, they're
doing something while they'reincarcerated and many people are
gaining a lot of skills.
And those skills, thosecertificates, those programs
that they participate in, manyemployers do not value them at
all.
Right, and that's sad too.
I still remember having aconversation with someone.
He's like I got a stack of themand he really did like a folder
(34:37):
full of all these certificateshe got from all these different
programs he participated in andhe was like nobody cares about
this.
It's really damaging, right.
And so he came home feelingreally hopeful.
I did while I was incarcerated,I really took advantage of this
(35:07):
time and then you get out there, you start applying and you
just get shot down.
I mean, what do you expect isgoing to be positive, right?
So people did their time, theyserved, that's it, we're done,
we're home.
Now they need to continue onwith life, right.
Life costs money, so you haveto have a job.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
That's right, that's right.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
That's some of the concerns of our veterans, too,
as well.
Similarly, like, yeah, and thisis what we want our world to
see, that for those who areanti-DEI, who may just be
anti-Black, but when you putthis blanket statement of
anti-DEI, you're saying you'reanti.
Your cousin, who got caughtwith a Black woman that one time
(35:50):
and went to jail and now needsto go to work.
Speaker 1 (35:56):
No, that's true.
You know, people make a lot ofPeople who are differently abled
.
Yeah, I can't imagine all thedumb stuff I did, all the silly
things I did when I was younger.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
I would love to find, like where our agencies or
organizations, you know we caninvigorate the circular economy,
or those of us who areentrepreneurs and small business
owners that don't have, youknow, don't don't have to go
through a whole bunch of redtape and bureaucracy, they can
help put some people to work ina meaningful, human-centered,
(36:30):
valuing, reinforcing kind of waythey are made so.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
So now we get to the fun part, you know.
So you know, kind of add somelevity to this conversation.
First, also shout out to thoseformerly incarcerated who are
doing something to improve theirlives while they are in prison.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
Can I just tell y'all one thing Everyone deserves
second chances Yep, go ahead.
I just got to say I had a shoutout to my cousin so we talked
about how we got on our journeysof you know, our education PhDs
.
My cousin you know I was a Iused to always claim like I'm a
first gen college student andthen I thought I'm going to be
(37:11):
the first person in my familywith a PhD.
And then my cousin beat me tothe punch Formerly incarcerated,
went and like, showed up.
And person in my family with aPhD.
And then my cousin beat me tothe punch formerly incarcerated,
went and like, showed up andshowed out at University of
Wisconsin Madison and became myhero and he took his experience
and made that part of hisdissertation and his work.
He studied rehabilitativepsychology and he's now working
(37:34):
in the state of Louisiana to dosomething like how do we make
sure that we are helping peopleactually be rehabilitated and
reformed?
And so because it was on topic,I was like I just got a shout
out and it was because of hisexperience.
Like when life got hard for mein my first world challenges and
(37:55):
jerking I was able to live life.
But look at what he was able todo and overcome.
Speaker 3 (38:00):
That is amazing.
That is amazing.
That is definitely one of thesectors I will say.
And then we can do the funstuff that does seem to
consistently hire, right.
So think about social services,counselors, right, people that
are helping others that may havebeen on this path too.
So we see a lot of hiring inthat space.
So I got to big up any sector,nonprofit agency you know that's
(38:24):
in that space.
They, they consistently showout.
Speaker 2 (38:28):
And now I'm going to be quiet so we can get to the
fun stuff.
Dr J, you got it.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
All right, all right, all right.
So, nicole, yeah, you asked usto ask you what are your top
five movies and why.
Speaker 3 (38:49):
Okay, so I love movies, I love shows.
I believe art imitates life andlife art vice versa.
I also believe there's a lot oflife lessons in movies.
So I have a lot of movies Ilike.
This was really hard actuallyto narrow it down, but I had to
(39:09):
say to myself what movies, ifthey came on, no matter my mood,
that they came on, no matter mymood, like time of day, I will
stop what I'm doing and watch.
Okay, the first three may seemin a similar vein, but they each
have lessons.
It's the Godfather Good Lovingand A Bronze Tale.
(39:31):
So those three together theyhave some overlap of actors, but
those movies in particular,like I just have so many lines
and life lessons Wait, you saidthe Godfather, I missed it.
The Godfather Good Felons and ABroward's Tale.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
I'm sorry, I got excited.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
A mob kind of theme going on with you.
Speaker 3 (39:54):
It's too trifecta.
So these women I have such goodmemories.
So in my family we have, youknow, there's a lot of
stereotypes, stereotypicalimages of Black families, right,
A single mom, and thatcertainly does happen.
We do not really have that inmy family.
Everybody in my family ismarried.
We have like a half and halfmen, half, and you know, men and
(40:16):
women and I spent a lot of timewith my dad and my uncles and
this was a way for me to alsoconnect with them and it was
just like such a fun time.
I remember so, like I can alwaysreminisce with them.
Like a Bronsted came on duringThanksgiving weekend and I was
like yo stop, like fullthanksgiving weekend.
(40:38):
And I was like yo stop, likefull stop for christmas.
I was like, stop what we'redoing.
We got to watch a bronze tale.
You know the music, thesoundtrack, just everything, the
lines, the lessons, like Irecently used one of those
lessons for class in my head,though, in my head, yeah I think
I need you to give me a quote,a line that's like oh because,
you know how, like, sometimesyou have a student.
(40:58):
They're just kind of annoyingand you can take off like those
extra two points.
But you have to say, is thisreally worth it?
And then I thought back to whatSonny was trying to teach and
he was like look for $20, yougot this man out of your life
forever.
And I said for two points, thisstudent is out of my life for
the rest of the semester.
(41:19):
It's not worth it.
It is not worth it.
So I'd be applying these thingsin other contexts.
It's amazing.
Okay, so those are the first,my first three.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
Well, you even said it.
You sounded like a characterfrom the movie you know.
For two points.
You got them out of your life.
It's an offer you can't refuse.
Speaker 3 (41:37):
Number three and then fourth, one Holy separate Mouth
of X.
So this movie, no matter whenit comes out, where it is in the
movie.
I will just start when I'm doingit, just start watching it when
I read the book.
That book will always stickwith me and I was young when I
(41:58):
first read the book but ittotally shifted just so many
things in me, just like how Ithought about life.
And then when the movie comesout, I was definitely one of
those kids rocking the ex hatand the whole ex tank, like
everything.
I was all over it.
Love, love, love Malcolm X.
I love the story, I loveeverything about it.
So I know that whole movieforwards and backwards
Intersection of like other showslike Godfather and Harlan and
(42:21):
stuff like that, where itintersects with Malcolm X.
So anything like in that realmis all me.
And then, coming to America, itliterally rounds out my entire
five, the new one or the old one, the old one.
Speaker 1 (42:38):
Of course Classic.
Speaker 2 (42:40):
What is your favorite Coming to America line?
There's so many.
Speaker 3 (42:45):
But he's like that boy good.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
Oh yeah, the barbershop scenes.
Speaker 3 (42:50):
Oh my God, the barbershop, I mean it was just
amazing.
Just so many different scenesand these are big, like I was
just amazing.
Just so many different scenesand these are big, like I make
my kids.
A couple of American came on, Imade my kids, but yeah, no, but
there's so many great moviesout there I could have picked,
but anything, those are like mytop five.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
That's a good top five.
Yeah, all those movies, I knowI'm very familiar.
Those are some great movies.
You know, when you started withthe first three I was I was
wondering if you're going to addScarface in there.
You know.
Speaker 3 (43:23):
Scarface is one of my classics and I used to watch
that movie.
As I go through withdrawal fromthe NFL season Every Sunday, I
would put on Scarface because Ijust didn't know what to do with
myself.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
You had a whole routine.
Speaker 3 (43:39):
I did.
I was like it's Scarface time.
Speaker 2 (43:41):
Listen, you know the Godfather.
When I was doing my MBA atUniversity of Florida, I took Dr
Henry Tosi I don't know if youall are familiar with Dr Tosi
and the whole class was powerand influence.
It was all about the Godfather.
Speaker 3 (43:58):
That makes sense.
Speaker 1 (43:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (44:00):
Power and influence.
That was like succession beforesuccession.
Mm-hmm, it's an amazing movie.
Speaker 1 (44:09):
Well, dr Young, that was a great way for us to close
this episode.
Thank you so much for joiningus today.
This was a great conversation,great.
You so much for joining ustoday.
This was this is a greatconversation, great conversation
.
Speaker 3 (44:18):
Thanks for having me.
This was fun, Dyer.
Speaker 1 (44:23):
Yeah, I'm glad you enjoyed it.
Glad you enjoyed it To ourlisteners out there.
Thank you for joining us forthis episode of Top 5 DEI.
Please like share, subscribe.
Speaker 2 (44:35):
And subscribe.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
You know, buy us a cup of coffee that right there.
Exactly exactly all of theabove and peace out from DrJ.
Speaker 2 (44:47):
Dr Miller, aka the Petty Professor, and tonight
Nurse.
Time.
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