February 14, 2025 • 45 mins
In this episode of the TradGard Wica Podcast, Aeowyn, Hermes, and Iristar discuss fit for the tradition, how to find Gardnerian groups, and some of the experiences and challenges of moving through the seeking and training process.
Gardnerian Initiates Open Forum for Seekers
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Welcome to the TradGuard Wicca Podcast.
(00:02):
This podcast is for both seekers and initiates of the Gardenerian path and focuses on historical
contexts as well as modern day concerns.
All contributors are either elders, high priests, or high priestesses of the traditional Gardenerian
wicca, sung with several decades in the craft.
(00:44):
Our guest today is Gardenerian High Priestess Iris Starr, who has been practicing Gardenerian
Wicca for over 30 years.
In this episode, Iris Starr, Hermes, and I take a look at the Seeker Experience and
how it has changed over the years.
We will also discuss how to find a group to work with, what to look for when choosing
a group, and Seeker Etiquette.
So we've talked a bit about in episode 1 and 2 the origins of Gardener, where he got
(01:07):
what he worked on, and how he came to forming Gardenerian Wicca and the influences there.
In the second episode, we did talk about traditional Gardenerian Wicca and the beliefs and tenets
that serve as the basis for the practice.
Now what we want to discuss today is the Seeker Experience and finding a group if you are
interested in traditional Gardenerian Wicca, and there are a lot of dimensions that go
into that work.
(01:27):
So I think what we want to talk about before we go into anything else really is fit for
the tradition, and what that kind of looks like, and why you might want to consider if
this is the right fit for you.
Because I don't know that everybody kind of does that, and I think that it would be
a good idea to hover on that before we go over how you do it, right?
So I guess I will go over to Hermes and ask, what do you think are the qualities that are
(01:48):
important to have when you look at traditional Gardenerian Wicca as an option?
What would constitute good fit?
So I would say what would constitute good fit is a willingness to embrace tradition.
And oftentimes we see that people want to change tradition rather than understanding
(02:10):
what the tradition is and why is in place.
You know, the idea is not to just invoke change for change's sake.
You also have to be okay with the fact that we are a mystery fertility cult, and in there
there's an element of mystery, an element of the unknown, and you have to be okay with
that, and that's kind of difficult in today's gratification culture, because people want
(02:35):
everything, they want all the knowledge, and they want it up front.
This is different than traditional Gardenerian Wicca, where you'll be copying from a book
by hand, and it takes years to go from degree to degree.
You know, we say that there are some people who are raised a third degree in three years,
(02:55):
and that's not the norm, nor is it even desired.
Iris Star, what do you think are some of the fits for traditional Gardenerian Wicca that
seekers should be aware of?
Well, usually when I speak to seekers, I usually let them know that, you know, a little bit
about what we encompass.
I let them know that there's a polarity that goes with the traditional Gardenerians, and
(03:23):
we worship using male-female, the love of the God and the Goddess, and that's really
very basic, and that's very, very core.
Also, that they need to be okay with sky-clad.
We tell them right up front for entering into our Seekers Group so that they know that that's
(03:47):
what is ultimately going to be required if it's agreeable for them to come into our coven.
You know, that way, if they're just not into that right off the bat, they'll know, and
they will thank us for our time and leave.
(04:09):
So I think that this is interesting too, because Gardenerian Wicca is structured a little differently
than some other traditions might be, in such that you do have a working partner, or at
least at a certain point that has an important goal to have.
It's not the goal when you come in, right?
So when you're looking for the individual experience and spiritual growth, you're really
going to find that in the lower degrees.
(04:30):
You're going to find that obviously in the Seeker Groups.
The first degree will be focused on that, and I think part of second degree is focused
on that.
When you move into second degree, then you're going to be working towards learning how to
run a group, and we run groups in pairs.
That's how Gardenerian Craft is done.
And so in second degree and third degree, you're going to have that experience.
The individual experience on a spiritual level is different from the experience of working
(04:54):
as a partnership, and the range of experience is different between if it's a platonic relationship
or if it's a couple and the different areas that can be explored in there.
So when you're thinking about fit, you're not just thinking about, okay, do I like the
beliefs and tenets?
You're thinking, how far do I want to go into the practice, and what does that mean at different
(05:15):
stages of the practice?
To what Hermes said, I mean, Gardenerian Craft is one of the earliest and most well-structured
traditions out there.
You know, the structure has served it well, and it has really allowed it to flourish over
the decade.
So if you're seeking, right, and you're thinking about fit, do you want something where, you
know, you're going to have a solid training behind what you're doing, or do you want something
(05:36):
a little more fluid?
Most traditions will have some form of training, but I think Gardenerian has a form that is
pretty well structured at this point.
Another thing I would just mention about fit is that we produce priests and priestesses,
and I think that some people aren't aware that that's kind of what we're doing when
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you come to training.
So I've had people come to like a WICO 101 or some other kind of training, and they're
really there just kind of for the social experience of it, and they're not really understanding
fully that they're a trained priest and priestess.
Now we make a call out for that, but it's something you should consider if you're considering
traditional Gardenerian WICA, because being a priest or priest does come with, you know,
(06:18):
certain responsibilities.
It comes with a certain standard, and it does come with, like Hermes said, many years of
training to really get you to a certain place both spiritually and as practitioner and as
a leader, if that's something that you want to do.
I think that's a great point, Zeya Lynn.
And yeah, and I'd like to emphasize that the training in Gardenerian WICA has been going
(06:41):
on and the material's been collected for at least, you know, 50 years at this point.
We use old training materials that have been hand-typed on a typewriter, and you can still
see the marks on the photocopied pages.
But that's, I think, is an important distinction that you bring up between other forms of WICA
and traditional Gardenerian WICA.
(07:03):
We are training people to be priests and priestesses, and that is reflected in the quality of training.
One of the things I think you might get from other traditions that you don't get in Gardenerian
WICA is that other traditions don't have a base to draw from.
They don't have a lineage to draw from.
And so consequently, they're training, they might get their materials entirely from published
(07:25):
books.
And at that point, what really are you learning that's special that you can't learn anywhere
else?
And the answer is not much, because if you're being trained from books, that information's
out there anyway.
So that's what I think one of the draws is towards traditional practice, be it Gardenerian
or Alexandrian, you know, Mochean, Central Valley, whatever, is that we're training you
(07:51):
to be priests and priestesses of a religion where training that you will receive is on
par with being a priest or priestess.
And that goes above what you will get in general WICA 101 books or even WICA 102 books, because
it goes, you get training on things that are not just Gardenerian based, but also how to
(08:15):
deal with people, how to do divination, how to manage energies, things that you won't
necessarily find in intro to WICA book.
I would have to say though, that with my early training some 30 years ago or so, I didn't
know that that was what coming into the coven would be.
(08:40):
It was more organic.
Like we came to a pagan way and we were in there in the pagan way for two, three years,
or it could be shorter.
And then we asked to come into the coven, but no one specifically told us back then
(09:00):
that we're training to be priests and priestesses.
I think it's just because it was a natural progression rather than everything being told
to us or handed to us.
It was more of an awakening.
(09:20):
And so that's been my experience.
So Iris Starr, just to remind everyone, when were you initiated?
What year?
1986.
86.
Okay, yeah.
I was initiated in 2013 and I believe Eowyn was initiated 2014.
Yeah.
Yeah, we're about one year apart.
(09:42):
And Iris Starr, I was going to ask as well, and this kind of leads into my other probably
final point about fit, traditional practice is not necessarily kind of a social club.
It's more of a, yes, there are social elements that we enjoy and that are desired, but it
is a spiritual and religious practice, right?
And so it sounds like your original experiences were maybe billed as more of a social thing
(10:05):
or came through that way, but then you found out about the kind of the priest or priestess
training.
I would say that for a reason, I, when we train, we let people know right up front today.
So is that a difference that, and we'll talk more about this in a little bit, but is that
a difference that you're seeing between then and now, or is it just that it was practiced
(10:26):
differently at that time?
It definitely was different back then because it wasn't even called a training circle.
It was called a pagan way.
So in the pagan way, you would celebrate the festivals and you would do some type of event
(10:48):
for each one of those festivals.
And it was very much social.
In a way, that was a good way to be because it created the fun, it created the draw to
come back.
It created the camaraderie amongst everybody.
(11:09):
You really were drawn to each other as brother and sister, that you would have each other's
back.
There was also brother, sister fighting.
And of course there was also the male-female aspect of it too.
A lot of people getting together back then.
(11:31):
So yeah, it was very much different than it is today.
Our training that Eowyn and I receive, we actually use the same pagan way material that
Irisstar used.
However, our training was much more in changing the way we think versus specific concrete
(11:53):
topics.
Well, I think there's also variability of course from high priest and priestess to high
priest and priestess.
So you're going to have some more or less structure.
But I think that to what Irisstar was saying is that there seems to be more encouragement
towards a structured process that is a little more academic.
And that's certainly true in America, I'm not sure how it's done over in England or
(12:17):
in other locations if it's following that as well.
But it's definitely a little more academic here than maybe it was more organic as Irisstar
said back when she started.
Well, during the pagan ways back when I started, the material that we have for the rituals
(12:39):
are a little bit more expanded than the rituals that we were given now.
So it's beautiful for us because we have two different types of rituals that we can pull
from that are both beautiful, that are both meaningful, that we like to use.
(13:05):
You know, one of the things I think people need to realize, and we'll probably talk about
this a little more at other times, is that there are lots of different types of people
who are attracted to Gardner and Wicca.
So when you're thinking about fit, I would say that the spiritual aspect needs to be
more important than the other aspects, and because it's the unifying factor.
(13:26):
So you're going to meet people from different socioeconomic backgrounds, different educational
backgrounds, different racial backgrounds, and different prior experiences with religion.
And that has to be kind of, you just need to be aware of that because it's very possible
you'll meet someone or deal with someone who has very different ideas about how the world
should be run, or what the right political thing is to do or whatever.
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And if that's your guidepost, you know, that's not going to serve you over time.
It doesn't serve the tradition over time.
What serves all of us is being focused on the spiritual.
It's just something to be aware of, I think, when you're thinking about fit.
And I would say being okay with some of that variability rather than looking for a bunch
of niches that you fit into all at once within the Gardnering craft.
(14:09):
The other thing I would mention is you should ask yourself some questions when you're thinking
of, is this the right fit for me?
You know, do I agree with the basic tenets of Wicca?
Am I okay practicing in a structured way?
Do I acknowledge that as a priest or priestess I would have some responsibilities to uphold
the tradition, as well as act in certain ways becoming of such a designation?
You know, the answer is no, or I'm not sure.
(14:31):
That's okay.
And if I'm not sure, then maybe you do need to go into a training group and learn more
about things and really feel it out before you commit.
Okay, so I wanted to talk next a little bit about lineage.
You know, what is it?
How does it matter or not matter?
So I'm going to throw this over to Iris Star just to hear some of her thoughts on lineage
when it comes to the Seeker Experience and we're seeking traditional Gardnering Wicca.
(14:54):
Lineage matters a lot for traditional Gardnerians.
It means that we can trace our line, our initiations, all the way back to Gardner and that the
rites that we're doing in our covens is also the rites that were handed to us by Gerald
(15:16):
Gardner.
This is the way that we do our rites and we do it by not changing one word of those rites.
I would say that there is some, there's going to be some argument about that because we
do change, you know, words here or there.
(15:39):
We do have some differences between the lines.
And so it's really, I think, more so, does it capture the energy of what we are supposed
to be doing, of the season, of the rite?
We have a rule where, you know, you're not supposed to change the original rituals, but
you can add, right?
So or if you're going to, you know, completely change the ritual or redo it, it really needs
(16:02):
to mirror what's going on in the ritual, right?
So to me, this is like understanding the why of what we do and then you can write a ritual
for that.
But in terms of lineage, I personally think that there's a lot more emphasis on lineage
than there needs to be.
I actually root things more in kind of what is the philosophical guideposts and the practical
(16:23):
guideposts of our tradition that to me is more important.
So I think it depends on who you're talking to about lineage and maybe even when they
entered the craft.
But in terms of the seeker experience, in terms of what they're, what they should expect
in terms of what is lineage, how does it factor into what they're doing, all that kind of
stuff, where would you place that for them?
(16:45):
What should they be focusing on with that?
I would agree with Irisstar in that lineage is very important.
Lineage is the link of high priestesses and high priests going back to Gardener and it's
what separates Gardenerian practice from other forms of Wicca.
And I think people don't really get why that's important.
(17:06):
So they think that, oh, it's just the practice is going back to Gardener so I can just read,
you know, an online book of shadows and I can get all that lineage and that that's not
the case.
What makes the Wicca is not the spells, it's not the BOS, it's the lineage because traditional
Gardenerian Wicca is an oral tradition.
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Probably about 70% of the actual tradition is not written down in the BOS and that tradition
is only passed from high priestess to initiate.
So it's certain elements of these oral teachings from Gerald Gardener that are incompatible
with inclusive Gardenerian Wicca, hence the split that happened between traditional Gardenerian
Wicca and inclusive Gardenerian Wicca.
(17:51):
It's not so much the book of shadows, but these oral teachings and you only get those
oral teachings through the lineage because it's passed mouth to ear from teacher to student.
The other thing I would note about lineage is that as you kind of get further away from
Gardener, right, so, you know, four, five, six, seven, some people are 10, 11 down from
Gardener, I think the likelihood that the materials that you inherit might have some
(18:17):
alterations to them that take away from the original meaning and then the meaning gets
lost.
That's a risk that happens with lineage, that's connected to lineage.
And so it's not something that anybody can do anything about, right, you're where you're
at.
But a lot of the people in the craft have really tried to go back to as many original
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sources as possible, get as much information as possible to understand the why behind what
we do.
So I just like to note that with lineage because it's just something to be aware of.
And then as a seeker, you know, and then as an initiate, where am I away from the original
practices?
Could there be differences from what I'm doing and do those differences matter?
(18:59):
Those are sort of questions that come out of lineage at a certain point.
Well, that's why we say that when the information is passed, it needs to be passed exactly as
you received it.
So I would think that the way that you received it, you should be giving to your students.
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And so it doesn't matter how far away the lineage is from Gardner.
I will say though, in response to Erowan's comment about it depends on which high priestess
(19:46):
that Gerald gave information to, because there are slight differences in the information
that he passed to the different high priestess that he trained.
So that's where the differences come that she's talking about.
But all of the priestesses were handed material that is traditional Gardnerian craft.
(20:14):
You have what's core, right?
This is the core element of the tradition.
Then you have rituals that people have expanded upon.
And just as long as those are kept separate, that's perfectly fine.
So you can continue to pass what's core.
And then if you want to pass additional material, you can, but you have to make people aware
of, okay, this is additional material that people have added.
(20:36):
That's not what was originally passed.
I just wanted to clarify.
Yes, I'm talking about the high priestesses getting different material from Gardner and
that might change what certain lines do.
But I also am mentioning it from the fact that high priestesses under them have added
things or changed things.
And we have what is known as the forklift of shadows for a reason, right?
(20:57):
And that's why I'm hinging things on not lineage.
When I say it's not as, you know, to me, it's not as important as other things.
It's because we're kind of moving to a place where there's so much of that, that really
you need to understand the why of what we do, not just that we do it.
And that's why I'm kind of mentioning that as well, because people just, I think, need
(21:18):
to be aware.
Well, I think Hermes brought up a good point though, too.
It should be noted in the book of shadows if it is been elaborated on from the basic
core rituals so that we know.
Yeah, ideally, from a seeker's perspective, just to kind of give them an idea of how the
(21:41):
lineage impacts, you know, who they're seeking with and what they're learning.
So now that we kind of give you a baseline of like thinking about fit and just knowing
a little bit about lineage and how that kind of impacts what you learn, I did want to kind
of move us into talking about finding a group.
Now I want to note that the tradition is split at this point between traditional gardenarians
(22:04):
and inclusive gardenarians.
So you have traditional gardening Wicca and you have inclusive gardening Wicca.
And so I'm going to give you resources to connect with both.
And I also want to give you a little bit of clarity here because I think it's important
for the seeker at least to understand the differences.
Because I think that when you go and talk to people, you're going to get a lot of different
responses about the whole situation.
(22:26):
And so I wanted to give kind of a groundwork here.
So this podcast is a traditional gardenarian podcast, and we really don't seek to define
other practices.
However, I'm going to give you a brief clarifying statement in an attempt to provide clarity
to the seeker.
Traditional gardenarian Wicca is a binary practice and we initiate priests and priestesses.
The focus of traditional gardenarian Wicca is on preserving the practices as passed down
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by a gardener.
And there are several philosophical tenets and beliefs that unify most traditional gardenarians.
Really to read more about that, you can go on to www.traditionalgardenarianwicca.com
and review the beliefs and tenets section to get an idea.
Or you can listen to the podcast one and two that are on this stream.
(23:10):
Inclusive gardenarian Wicca, which is non-binary in its approach, initiates priests, priestesses,
and priestesses.
The practitioners nail to rituals to blend in other traditions or practices really in
an effort to accommodate a wider variety of seekers.
At this time, I would say there is a wide range of belief and practice that differentiates
inclusive gardenarians.
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Some are very traditional in their practice with a few caveats.
Seekers are very inclusive and have changed a good deal.
So really when you're seeking with that group, you really should ask questions or any group,
you should ask questions to clarify where they're at on that.
I think traditional gardenarians are more unified at this time about their beliefs and
tenets overall.
(23:52):
And really just the seeker should be mindful of these differences and just seek a form
of practice that feels right for you.
There is no right or wrong answer here.
It really is what speaks to you on a magical, on a mundane level.
So before I go on and give you resources, I just wanted to throw this over to Hermes
and I started to give a little more information as they feel is needed.
(24:13):
Coming from, again, I mentioned the 30 plus years.
Back in the old days, italics included, we used to, in order to find groups, there was
no online websites, any of that that we could actually go to.
(24:34):
Sometimes it was a matter of chance that you would meet up with someone and maybe they
were wearing a necklace that looked strange and you ask them a question and they would
tell you about it.
And then you would get an interest in that respect.
Maybe you came across a book, which was difficult back then because there wasn't the wide range
(24:58):
of books that there are now that you could read to make you more inquisitive about Wicca
and witchcraft.
There were message boards in witchy stores that used to advertise groups.
You could find groups through your friends or your lovers.
(25:21):
They would mention it.
They would say, you know, I think you might make a good fit for this.
Also publications would advertise different groups that you could join for training and
festivals.
So those are the different places that we had back in the day in order to find like-minded
(25:44):
people.
And I think that's really shifted from the current landscape and we can talk about this
more later.
In the current landscape, it's much more online.
Remember we used to have, you know, witchvox, RIP witchvox, which used to be the major meeting
hub for paganism and Wiccan and druids, asatru, whatever.
(26:07):
It was all included in there.
And it was nice because it was a one-stop shop and it was promoted in books and everyone
knew about it.
And then it started waning.
Eventually the owners just gave it up and it now exists as, I'm not sure if it's even
a blog, it just, but they dropped pretty much everything.
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And now there's a gap in the community as to where to go.
And I think we're too online at this point to go back to certainly the old days of posting
it on the corkboard at your local occult shop.
I don't think people are doing that or would be keen to go back to that.
So there really is a gap in terms of connecting seekers to traditions.
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And that's especially hard when we're talking about the gardenarian tradition, which at
least in the U.S. here is primarily along the coasts, right?
You have a lot of covens on the East coast and some covens on the West coast and not
really a whole lot in between when you compare them to the totality.
So that can certainly make finding a coven more difficult.
(27:14):
And that goes back to, I'm sure we're going to talk about later about traveling and lowering
your expectations about finding a wise grandmother high priestess in the next town over, which
probably will not be the case for you.
Right.
Well, and if we're talking about online resources, because I think that's a whole topic and we're
(27:34):
going to get into that shortly, I do want to mention that in replacement of Witchvox,
there are two resources available.
You have Darks and Moon, which is, you know, www.darksandmoon.com that has some of those
resources and then Mandragora Magica is also a place for that.
Those are for general, any group.
There is no restriction on that.
(27:55):
If you're a group and you're operating as a meetup or you're operating as a coven or
training group, whatever, you can be found there.
So it's a good resource if you aren't sure if you want to do traditional gardenarian
wicca or if you do and you can go there and you can find really what you're looking for
within the area.
One caveat is, of course, not everybody's listed there, right?
(28:16):
So there are groups that are dark.
There are groups that are only operating in different ways, but it's a good starting place.
But also mention there's another online resource and that's gardenarian.us.
This is for traditional gardenarians in the USA only.
But every one of the covens there is personally vouched for and is valid.
(28:39):
So if you don't find a coven in your state, there are automated contact forms available
on that website.
So you can message other legitimate traditional gardenarians and ask them, hey, I live in
Wyoming.
I don't see a coven in Wyoming.
Do you know of one?
And they will get back to you and provide you with that community connection where you
(29:02):
can possibly find a coven that's closer to you, even if it's not listed on the website.
And just to mention those resources as well.
So as Hermes mentioned, there's the gardenarian.us source for these groups and they're actually
verified.
But also if you want to reach out on social media, which is probably the main way that
we reach out nowadays or people have been doing, the traditional resources include the
(29:26):
gardenarian initiates open forum for seekers on Facebook as well as traditional gardenarian
Wicca, a Seekers Hub.
You can find those of those on Facebook if you want to reach traditional gardenarians.
As Iris Star mentioned, there are other ways to meet groups.
You can go to festivals.
You can go to meetups.
Usually somebody who's running a meetup is going to be running a group.
(29:48):
That's very common.
And Wicca 101s.
Or go to pagan shops.
You can go to pagan shops, ask them if they know any local groups or like Hermes said,
check the bulletin.
There are some groups that are going to operate that way for a variety of reasons.
So check everywhere.
If you're not liking what you're seeing, you know, somewhere else, or if it's not meeting
(30:08):
your need, you never know when you're going to make a connection with someone.
So what should you do when you find a coven?
So there's a right way to go about this and a wrong way to go about this.
Usually the coven will provide some sort of contact information.
Sometimes out of 10, that's going to be an email, but it might also be a phone number.
(30:30):
How you compose your first email or your first phone call with that coven will determine
as to whether you get a response or not.
So the number one rule is be respectful and keep it short.
What you want to include is, hi, my name is John Smith.
(30:53):
I'm looking for a coven to learn Gardnery and Wicca from.
I found your information on X.
Can you send me more information if you're seeking students at this time?
You know, respectfully, sincerely, John.
So yeah, so to what Hermes is stating, just be respectful, be inquisitive.
(31:15):
The initial contact is really just about establishing, is something even there at the end of the
line, right?
And can we initiate this process?
That's the point of the first contact.
Oversharing is not necessary and you might be nervous.
You might say something you wouldn't normally say.
Or think that you know what they want to hear and you don't.
(31:35):
I think sometimes it may seem simple enough, but I think just telling them how to go about
that initial contact.
I mean, some people might think it's really easy to do that.
Yeah, when I heard you say that, I said, oh, that's a good way to go.
Yeah, that's true.
And I included that because I think people, I hate to be the curmugony get off my lawn
(31:57):
guy, but people have decreased their standards as we move towards a more online age.
And people don't know how to write emails and do messages in a way that they don't introduce
slang or it comes off as disrespectful or they're using Netspeak and things like that.
(32:20):
You want to present that you're a person who has everything together and doesn't come off
as flippant.
And I think that composing a unprofessional email certainly leads to those elements.
So after you send out an email and you receive an email back, usually the next part of the
(32:42):
process will be some sort of interview.
And nowadays, the interviews are conducted usually online, although my interview was
conducted in person, both the Cummins that I joined, or it might be over the phone.
And again, it all depends on whether you can meet with the high priest and the high priestess
or whether there has to be some sort of technological intervention in that.
(33:08):
And as far as the interview process, some things that I would say is be honest.
You will be fact-checked and you will most likely have a social media search done of
you, at least basic, you know, Facebook, LinkedIn, just to get some more information about you
before the high priest and high priestess meet with you.
(33:30):
And it's okay to say that you don't know.
I've done many interviews and oftentimes I'll ask a question and the person clearly doesn't
know what I was asking and they'll pontificate on a random topic.
And it's just okay for you to say that you don't know because that's what the whole training
is about.
You know, we aren't looking for specific answers.
(33:52):
We're just looking for, are you open to receiving knowledge or is your brain already full and
it can't hold anymore?
I think we're also looking at fit, right?
Because it's not just about what the answers are.
It's kind of how a person goes about what they're saying and doing and what they're
interested in.
(34:12):
You know, if I'm asking questions and you're saying, oh, I'm interested in something that
might align more with a Druid practice or a Sartre or some other thing, that's important
for me to know because this might not be the right fit for you.
And you may get questions, follow-up questions about that.
So the interview process that we do, we tend to meet with people on Zoom first.
(34:32):
We like to meet face-to-face in that part of the process.
And we kind of suss out these details.
You know, if we feel that you're someone who might be a good fit and that you're mentally
in a good place with where you want to go, right?
You have some idea of what you want to do, then we may say, okay, we'll come to training.
We do a rolling admission training, so you can come in at any time.
(34:53):
Different groups have different things.
Some start cohorts, some, you know, will individually train people based only on what they need.
It really depends on who you're working with.
But we have rolling and we have the whole purpose is for people to really understand
is Gardener and Wight are the right thing for them.
And then us to know, are you a good fit and to see that over time.
(35:13):
So that's kind of the point of the interview process and then rolling into the training.
I don't know, Iris Star, if you want to talk a little bit about, you know, the year and
day of training and that versus maybe other models that you've seen.
Well, when we get a seeker that reaches out to us through email, we normally ask them
(35:35):
for a day and time once we've, you know, kind of researched them on the internet.
But we ask them for a day or a time that they can meet at a diner.
You know, that way we can sit for an hour, give them a meal and it's more relaxed and
you can really get to learn what that person is about, even if it is for only an hour.
(36:01):
And you can find if they're, you know, open to you as well as you being open to them.
Then we normally send them out a questionnaire to fill out.
We have like 10 questions on there and ask them to send it back.
Apparently, the questionnaire has been around for a long time because I know that my initial
(36:25):
group in the 80s had a questionnaire as well and we were asked to fill out that questionnaire.
I happened to meet the group through a friend of mine that lived in the area and this group
was like an hour and 15 minutes away.
Come to find out there actually was a working coven like within like three to four minutes,
(36:53):
depending on lights at that time that I could have actually joined.
So you never know what your initial group is going to end up to be.
You know, it's up to the gods who you get.
So generally training is going to last traditionally for a year and a day and that's not a set
(37:14):
standard sometimes if we know that the person is ready and they petition to join because
you have to petition to join even after you've been accepted for training.
If they petition to join, we might accept them a little bit earlier, but basically the
year and a day process for training is put in place so that not only can we evaluate
(37:37):
the student, but the student can also evaluate the group and see if it's right for them.
As been mentioned before on this podcast, every coven has their own different flavor
and so if a coven doesn't work right for you, you can always try another one and as Iris
Star was saying, there might be a coven that's even closer to you that you won't know about
(37:59):
until you make contact with the other coven that you're training with now and they might
have contacts to know if there's a closer group.
Hermes, you had mentioned earlier, you know, travel expectations and the seeker.
So I just want to touch on this a little more.
You will likely have to travel.
Most people have to travel.
If you're lucky, that'll be a 30 minute or a 15 minute, which is not really travel, but
(38:22):
if you're not as lucky, you're probably looking at at least an hour.
Some people have traveled, you know, multiple hours to get where they need to go.
It's usually once a month, especially once you're initiated once or twice a month.
That is part of the dedication to training.
When covens were much thinner on the ground, probably I would say that in the 70s and 80s
and although Iris Star, you know, you correct me, some people would take plane rides.
(38:45):
Some people would drive hours to get where they needed to go.
So we're lucky in the sense that there are more covens than there used to be available
for training, but there are pockets of the country where that's not the case and so that
decision still needs to be made if this is what you want.
I always go back to fit, you know, if you, if this is really what somebody wants, then
(39:06):
the travel is worth it.
So it's just something to keep in mind.
Yeah, I would agree.
As Eowyn said, in the 70s and 80s, it was not uncommon to hear of people making three
to six hour drives and even plane rides to seek a gardenerium coven.
What it comes down to is what do you want?
I knew from the onset when I was pagan that I wanted to be gardenerian, full stop.
(39:30):
And so I actually passed up at least two other covens and they offered me initiation too.
I was like, no, I want a gardenerian coven.
And so in that I knew that I'd have to travel and that was a sacrifice that I was willing
to make because I wanted to be a member of that tradition.
(39:53):
If you want to be a member of that tradition, you know, you will find a way to make that
happen.
Well, we would agree that the seeker needs to be able to get themselves there and on
time otherwise if the seeker can't make it because we do realize that family things come
(40:14):
up, you know, some of these seekers have children or they have elderly moms and dads where things
will come up.
So we understand when things happen in a person's day to day life, but they would want to send
us out a text as soon as they know it.
(40:35):
So if they know that they can't show up, they should send us a text.
Now this could cause a delay in their training.
They may need to go longer than a year and a day.
So it's imperative for them to get there as soon as, you know, as often as they can in
(40:56):
order to not extend their training process.
And I think that this kind of goes into like dedication to practice, right?
Because you said people need to be there on time.
They need to make it a priority.
The year in a day shows us whether or not you're serious about seeking because when
you become an initiate, there's a whole other level of work you have to do.
(41:17):
And while that can be paced out based on the seekers need, most of the time with the secret
training, we really want to see that you have the capacity to sustain your interest in this
and that you're going to dedicate time.
Because remember, the people that are training you, at least in Gardenerica, at least in
traditional Gardenerica, we aren't charging for that training.
We will never do that.
(41:37):
And we are taking significant amounts of our time to do this for you.
It is a calling for us.
It is work for us that we do that the gods call us to do.
But be mindful of that because we're asking you for something valuable.
We're asking you for your time.
And we're giving you our time.
Both are much more valuable than money or other things like that.
So be mindful of that and show your dedication if you want to be initiated.
(42:01):
It's really, really important to do that.
And I would also say when you show up, show up, show up.
Be ready to learn.
So real briefly, if we're talking about what is the point of training, for most groups
it's going to be initiation.
For most seekers, it's initiation.
So just to note, when you're a seeker, we will typically not ask you to initiate.
(42:26):
That's really one of the tenets of our tradition.
We don't ask you.
We don't cross the lines.
You have to ask us for initiation.
Usually that will occur closer to the end of the training.
If someone is more advanced, we might say to them, we feel you've met the parameters
and we might bring up, do you want to ask for initiation?
You can do that at any time going forward.
(42:47):
So we might give you that prompt.
However, it is up to you to make that decision.
That might be to the year and a day fully.
It could be before that.
It could be after that.
You could be asked if you're not showing what we need to see.
You could be asked to stay on if you're training for longer.
Now I am, of course, speaking of an American model.
And I don't want to speak for all Gardinerians in that respect.
(43:09):
But that is something just to be aware of when it comes to initiation.
I would have to agree with that because funny story, when I was seeking initiation, I thought
that it would be up to the coven to let me know that they specifically chose me.
(43:34):
Like I thought that I was waiting for them to choose me and say, yes, you're the type
of person that we want.
You know, we want you like Uncle Sam, I guess.
And so while I'm waiting for them to ask me, of course, they're waiting for me to ask them.
(43:57):
And they aren't back then.
They didn't tell you what you had to do.
Like Erwin, I hear you saying that sometimes you kind of prompt them what they need to
do.
I think that that's a really good thing to do because some people have learned throughout
their lives not to ask these questions, that it's something that they will let you know
(44:22):
if you're deserving.
And so, yeah.
Yeah.
And that's just a stylistic choice because I am very like, what's next?
What I need to do next in everything because my life is crazy.
So a lot of times with the speakers, I'll try to keep them on a pace.
But at the end of the day, they make that decision.
And I think that's really critical.
(44:43):
And it's different from other places.
You're going to find other religions may pressure you into giving money, giving time, giving
attention, becoming this, becoming that.
Gardnery, Wicca, we do not do that.
And there's a lot of reasons for that.
And one of them I would say is the responsibility.
We talked about, you know, you're going to be a priest or priestess.
Nobody should be taking that on lightly ever.
(45:05):
You know, so this is just one step and one part of that.
Thank you for listening to this episode of the TradGuard Wicca podcast.
Please join us next time for part two of this episode, The Seeker Experience and Finding
a Group.
Thank you.
Welcome to the TradGuard Wicca Podcast.
(00:02):
This podcast is for both seekers and initiates of the Gardenerian path and focuses on historical
contexts as well as modern day concerns.
All contributors are either elders, high priests, or high priestesses of the traditional Gardenerian
wicca, sung with several decades in the craft.
(00:44):
Our guest today is Gardenerian High Priestess Iris Starr, who has been practicing Gardenerian
Wicca for over 30 years.
In this episode, Iris Starr, Hermes, and I take a look at the Seeker Experience and
how it has changed over the years.
We will also discuss how to find a group to work with, what to look for when choosing
a group, and Seeker Etiquette.
So we've talked a bit about in episode 1 and 2 the origins of Gardener, where he got
(01:07):
what he worked on, and how he came to forming Gardenerian Wicca and the influences there.
In the second episode, we did talk about traditional Gardenerian Wicca and the beliefs and tenets
that serve as the basis for the practice.
Now what we want to discuss today is the Seeker Experience and finding a group if you are
interested in traditional Gardenerian Wicca, and there are a lot of dimensions that go
into that work.
(01:27):
So I think what we want to talk about before we go into anything else really is fit for
the tradition, and what that kind of looks like, and why you might want to consider if
this is the right fit for you.
Because I don't know that everybody kind of does that, and I think that it would be
a good idea to hover on that before we go over how you do it, right?
So I guess I will go over to Hermes and ask, what do you think are the qualities that are
(01:48):
important to have when you look at traditional Gardenerian Wicca as an option?
What would constitute good fit?
So I would say what would constitute good fit is a willingness to embrace tradition.
And oftentimes we see that people want to change tradition rather than understanding
(02:10):
what the tradition is and why is in place.
You know, the idea is not to just invoke change for change's sake.
You also have to be okay with the fact that we are a mystery fertility cult, and in there
there's an element of mystery, an element of the unknown, and you have to be okay with
that, and that's kind of difficult in today's gratification culture, because people want
(02:35):
everything, they want all the knowledge, and they want it up front.
This is different than traditional Gardenerian Wicca, where you'll be copying from a book
by hand, and it takes years to go from degree to degree.
You know, we say that there are some people who are raised a third degree in three years,
(02:55):
and that's not the norm, nor is it even desired.
Iris Star, what do you think are some of the fits for traditional Gardenerian Wicca that
seekers should be aware of?
Well, usually when I speak to seekers, I usually let them know that, you know, a little bit
about what we encompass.
I let them know that there's a polarity that goes with the traditional Gardenerians, and
(03:23):
we worship using male-female, the love of the God and the Goddess, and that's really
very basic, and that's very, very core.
Also, that they need to be okay with sky-clad.
We tell them right up front for entering into our Seekers Group so that they know that that's
(03:47):
what is ultimately going to be required if it's agreeable for them to come into our coven.
You know, that way, if they're just not into that right off the bat, they'll know, and
they will thank us for our time and leave.
(04:09):
So I think that this is interesting too, because Gardenerian Wicca is structured a little differently
than some other traditions might be, in such that you do have a working partner, or at
least at a certain point that has an important goal to have.
It's not the goal when you come in, right?
So when you're looking for the individual experience and spiritual growth, you're really
going to find that in the lower degrees.
(04:30):
You're going to find that obviously in the Seeker Groups.
The first degree will be focused on that, and I think part of second degree is focused
on that.
When you move into second degree, then you're going to be working towards learning how to
run a group, and we run groups in pairs.
That's how Gardenerian Craft is done.
And so in second degree and third degree, you're going to have that experience.
The individual experience on a spiritual level is different from the experience of working
(04:54):
as a partnership, and the range of experience is different between if it's a platonic relationship
or if it's a couple and the different areas that can be explored in there.
So when you're thinking about fit, you're not just thinking about, okay, do I like the
beliefs and tenets?
You're thinking, how far do I want to go into the practice, and what does that mean at different
(05:15):
stages of the practice?
To what Hermes said, I mean, Gardenerian Craft is one of the earliest and most well-structured
traditions out there.
You know, the structure has served it well, and it has really allowed it to flourish over
the decade.
So if you're seeking, right, and you're thinking about fit, do you want something where, you
know, you're going to have a solid training behind what you're doing, or do you want something
(05:36):
a little more fluid?
Most traditions will have some form of training, but I think Gardenerian has a form that is
pretty well structured at this point.
Another thing I would just mention about fit is that we produce priests and priestesses,
and I think that some people aren't aware that that's kind of what we're doing when
(05:56):
you come to training.
So I've had people come to like a WICO 101 or some other kind of training, and they're
really there just kind of for the social experience of it, and they're not really understanding
fully that they're a trained priest and priestess.
Now we make a call out for that, but it's something you should consider if you're considering
traditional Gardenerian WICA, because being a priest or priest does come with, you know,
(06:18):
certain responsibilities.
It comes with a certain standard, and it does come with, like Hermes said, many years of
training to really get you to a certain place both spiritually and as practitioner and as
a leader, if that's something that you want to do.
I think that's a great point, Zeya Lynn.
And yeah, and I'd like to emphasize that the training in Gardenerian WICA has been going
(06:41):
on and the material's been collected for at least, you know, 50 years at this point.
We use old training materials that have been hand-typed on a typewriter, and you can still
see the marks on the photocopied pages.
But that's, I think, is an important distinction that you bring up between other forms of WICA
and traditional Gardenerian WICA.
(07:03):
We are training people to be priests and priestesses, and that is reflected in the quality of training.
One of the things I think you might get from other traditions that you don't get in Gardenerian
WICA is that other traditions don't have a base to draw from.
They don't have a lineage to draw from.
And so consequently, they're training, they might get their materials entirely from published
(07:25):
books.
And at that point, what really are you learning that's special that you can't learn anywhere
else?
And the answer is not much, because if you're being trained from books, that information's
out there anyway.
So that's what I think one of the draws is towards traditional practice, be it Gardenerian
or Alexandrian, you know, Mochean, Central Valley, whatever, is that we're training you
(07:51):
to be priests and priestesses of a religion where training that you will receive is on
par with being a priest or priestess.
And that goes above what you will get in general WICA 101 books or even WICA 102 books, because
it goes, you get training on things that are not just Gardenerian based, but also how to
(08:15):
deal with people, how to do divination, how to manage energies, things that you won't
necessarily find in intro to WICA book.
I would have to say though, that with my early training some 30 years ago or so, I didn't
know that that was what coming into the coven would be.
(08:40):
It was more organic.
Like we came to a pagan way and we were in there in the pagan way for two, three years,
or it could be shorter.
And then we asked to come into the coven, but no one specifically told us back then
(09:00):
that we're training to be priests and priestesses.
I think it's just because it was a natural progression rather than everything being told
to us or handed to us.
It was more of an awakening.
(09:20):
And so that's been my experience.
So Iris Starr, just to remind everyone, when were you initiated?
What year?
1986.
86.
Okay, yeah.
I was initiated in 2013 and I believe Eowyn was initiated 2014.
Yeah.
Yeah, we're about one year apart.
(09:42):
And Iris Starr, I was going to ask as well, and this kind of leads into my other probably
final point about fit, traditional practice is not necessarily kind of a social club.
It's more of a, yes, there are social elements that we enjoy and that are desired, but it
is a spiritual and religious practice, right?
And so it sounds like your original experiences were maybe billed as more of a social thing
(10:05):
or came through that way, but then you found out about the kind of the priest or priestess
training.
I would say that for a reason, I, when we train, we let people know right up front today.
So is that a difference that, and we'll talk more about this in a little bit, but is that
a difference that you're seeing between then and now, or is it just that it was practiced
(10:26):
differently at that time?
It definitely was different back then because it wasn't even called a training circle.
It was called a pagan way.
So in the pagan way, you would celebrate the festivals and you would do some type of event
(10:48):
for each one of those festivals.
And it was very much social.
In a way, that was a good way to be because it created the fun, it created the draw to
come back.
It created the camaraderie amongst everybody.
(11:09):
You really were drawn to each other as brother and sister, that you would have each other's
back.
There was also brother, sister fighting.
And of course there was also the male-female aspect of it too.
A lot of people getting together back then.
(11:31):
So yeah, it was very much different than it is today.
Our training that Eowyn and I receive, we actually use the same pagan way material that
Irisstar used.
However, our training was much more in changing the way we think versus specific concrete
(11:53):
topics.
Well, I think there's also variability of course from high priest and priestess to high
priest and priestess.
So you're going to have some more or less structure.
But I think that to what Irisstar was saying is that there seems to be more encouragement
towards a structured process that is a little more academic.
And that's certainly true in America, I'm not sure how it's done over in England or
(12:17):
in other locations if it's following that as well.
But it's definitely a little more academic here than maybe it was more organic as Irisstar
said back when she started.
Well, during the pagan ways back when I started, the material that we have for the rituals
(12:39):
are a little bit more expanded than the rituals that we were given now.
So it's beautiful for us because we have two different types of rituals that we can pull
from that are both beautiful, that are both meaningful, that we like to use.
(13:05):
You know, one of the things I think people need to realize, and we'll probably talk about
this a little more at other times, is that there are lots of different types of people
who are attracted to Gardner and Wicca.
So when you're thinking about fit, I would say that the spiritual aspect needs to be
more important than the other aspects, and because it's the unifying factor.
(13:26):
So you're going to meet people from different socioeconomic backgrounds, different educational
backgrounds, different racial backgrounds, and different prior experiences with religion.
And that has to be kind of, you just need to be aware of that because it's very possible
you'll meet someone or deal with someone who has very different ideas about how the world
should be run, or what the right political thing is to do or whatever.
(13:48):
And if that's your guidepost, you know, that's not going to serve you over time.
It doesn't serve the tradition over time.
What serves all of us is being focused on the spiritual.
It's just something to be aware of, I think, when you're thinking about fit.
And I would say being okay with some of that variability rather than looking for a bunch
of niches that you fit into all at once within the Gardnering craft.
(14:09):
The other thing I would mention is you should ask yourself some questions when you're thinking
of, is this the right fit for me?
You know, do I agree with the basic tenets of Wicca?
Am I okay practicing in a structured way?
Do I acknowledge that as a priest or priestess I would have some responsibilities to uphold
the tradition, as well as act in certain ways becoming of such a designation?
You know, the answer is no, or I'm not sure.
(14:31):
That's okay.
And if I'm not sure, then maybe you do need to go into a training group and learn more
about things and really feel it out before you commit.
Okay, so I wanted to talk next a little bit about lineage.
You know, what is it?
How does it matter or not matter?
So I'm going to throw this over to Iris Star just to hear some of her thoughts on lineage
when it comes to the Seeker Experience and we're seeking traditional Gardnering Wicca.
(14:54):
Lineage matters a lot for traditional Gardnerians.
It means that we can trace our line, our initiations, all the way back to Gardner and that the
rites that we're doing in our covens is also the rites that were handed to us by Gerald
(15:16):
Gardner.
This is the way that we do our rites and we do it by not changing one word of those rites.
I would say that there is some, there's going to be some argument about that because we
do change, you know, words here or there.
(15:39):
We do have some differences between the lines.
And so it's really, I think, more so, does it capture the energy of what we are supposed
to be doing, of the season, of the rite?
We have a rule where, you know, you're not supposed to change the original rituals, but
you can add, right?
So or if you're going to, you know, completely change the ritual or redo it, it really needs
(16:02):
to mirror what's going on in the ritual, right?
So to me, this is like understanding the why of what we do and then you can write a ritual
for that.
But in terms of lineage, I personally think that there's a lot more emphasis on lineage
than there needs to be.
I actually root things more in kind of what is the philosophical guideposts and the practical
(16:23):
guideposts of our tradition that to me is more important.
So I think it depends on who you're talking to about lineage and maybe even when they
entered the craft.
But in terms of the seeker experience, in terms of what they're, what they should expect
in terms of what is lineage, how does it factor into what they're doing, all that kind of
stuff, where would you place that for them?
(16:45):
What should they be focusing on with that?
I would agree with Irisstar in that lineage is very important.
Lineage is the link of high priestesses and high priests going back to Gardener and it's
what separates Gardenerian practice from other forms of Wicca.
And I think people don't really get why that's important.
(17:06):
So they think that, oh, it's just the practice is going back to Gardener so I can just read,
you know, an online book of shadows and I can get all that lineage and that that's not
the case.
What makes the Wicca is not the spells, it's not the BOS, it's the lineage because traditional
Gardenerian Wicca is an oral tradition.
(17:29):
Probably about 70% of the actual tradition is not written down in the BOS and that tradition
is only passed from high priestess to initiate.
So it's certain elements of these oral teachings from Gerald Gardener that are incompatible
with inclusive Gardenerian Wicca, hence the split that happened between traditional Gardenerian
Wicca and inclusive Gardenerian Wicca.
(17:51):
It's not so much the book of shadows, but these oral teachings and you only get those
oral teachings through the lineage because it's passed mouth to ear from teacher to student.
The other thing I would note about lineage is that as you kind of get further away from
Gardener, right, so, you know, four, five, six, seven, some people are 10, 11 down from
Gardener, I think the likelihood that the materials that you inherit might have some
(18:17):
alterations to them that take away from the original meaning and then the meaning gets
lost.
That's a risk that happens with lineage, that's connected to lineage.
And so it's not something that anybody can do anything about, right, you're where you're
at.
But a lot of the people in the craft have really tried to go back to as many original
(18:37):
sources as possible, get as much information as possible to understand the why behind what
we do.
So I just like to note that with lineage because it's just something to be aware of.
And then as a seeker, you know, and then as an initiate, where am I away from the original
practices?
Could there be differences from what I'm doing and do those differences matter?
(18:59):
Those are sort of questions that come out of lineage at a certain point.
Well, that's why we say that when the information is passed, it needs to be passed exactly as
you received it.
So I would think that the way that you received it, you should be giving to your students.
(19:25):
And so it doesn't matter how far away the lineage is from Gardner.
I will say though, in response to Erowan's comment about it depends on which high priestess
(19:46):
that Gerald gave information to, because there are slight differences in the information
that he passed to the different high priestess that he trained.
So that's where the differences come that she's talking about.
But all of the priestesses were handed material that is traditional Gardnerian craft.
(20:14):
You have what's core, right?
This is the core element of the tradition.
Then you have rituals that people have expanded upon.
And just as long as those are kept separate, that's perfectly fine.
So you can continue to pass what's core.
And then if you want to pass additional material, you can, but you have to make people aware
of, okay, this is additional material that people have added.
(20:36):
That's not what was originally passed.
I just wanted to clarify.
Yes, I'm talking about the high priestesses getting different material from Gardner and
that might change what certain lines do.
But I also am mentioning it from the fact that high priestesses under them have added
things or changed things.
And we have what is known as the forklift of shadows for a reason, right?
(20:57):
And that's why I'm hinging things on not lineage.
When I say it's not as, you know, to me, it's not as important as other things.
It's because we're kind of moving to a place where there's so much of that, that really
you need to understand the why of what we do, not just that we do it.
And that's why I'm kind of mentioning that as well, because people just, I think, need
(21:18):
to be aware.
Well, I think Hermes brought up a good point though, too.
It should be noted in the book of shadows if it is been elaborated on from the basic
core rituals so that we know.
Yeah, ideally, from a seeker's perspective, just to kind of give them an idea of how the
(21:41):
lineage impacts, you know, who they're seeking with and what they're learning.
So now that we kind of give you a baseline of like thinking about fit and just knowing
a little bit about lineage and how that kind of impacts what you learn, I did want to kind
of move us into talking about finding a group.
Now I want to note that the tradition is split at this point between traditional gardenarians
(22:04):
and inclusive gardenarians.
So you have traditional gardening Wicca and you have inclusive gardening Wicca.
And so I'm going to give you resources to connect with both.
And I also want to give you a little bit of clarity here because I think it's important
for the seeker at least to understand the differences.
Because I think that when you go and talk to people, you're going to get a lot of different
responses about the whole situation.
(22:26):
And so I wanted to give kind of a groundwork here.
So this podcast is a traditional gardenarian podcast, and we really don't seek to define
other practices.
However, I'm going to give you a brief clarifying statement in an attempt to provide clarity
to the seeker.
Traditional gardenarian Wicca is a binary practice and we initiate priests and priestesses.
The focus of traditional gardenarian Wicca is on preserving the practices as passed down
(22:49):
by a gardener.
And there are several philosophical tenets and beliefs that unify most traditional gardenarians.
Really to read more about that, you can go on to www.traditionalgardenarianwicca.com
and review the beliefs and tenets section to get an idea.
Or you can listen to the podcast one and two that are on this stream.
(23:10):
Inclusive gardenarian Wicca, which is non-binary in its approach, initiates priests, priestesses,
and priestesses.
The practitioners nail to rituals to blend in other traditions or practices really in
an effort to accommodate a wider variety of seekers.
At this time, I would say there is a wide range of belief and practice that differentiates
inclusive gardenarians.
(23:31):
Some are very traditional in their practice with a few caveats.
Seekers are very inclusive and have changed a good deal.
So really when you're seeking with that group, you really should ask questions or any group,
you should ask questions to clarify where they're at on that.
I think traditional gardenarians are more unified at this time about their beliefs and
tenets overall.
(23:52):
And really just the seeker should be mindful of these differences and just seek a form
of practice that feels right for you.
There is no right or wrong answer here.
It really is what speaks to you on a magical, on a mundane level.
So before I go on and give you resources, I just wanted to throw this over to Hermes
and I started to give a little more information as they feel is needed.
(24:13):
Coming from, again, I mentioned the 30 plus years.
Back in the old days, italics included, we used to, in order to find groups, there was
no online websites, any of that that we could actually go to.
(24:34):
Sometimes it was a matter of chance that you would meet up with someone and maybe they
were wearing a necklace that looked strange and you ask them a question and they would
tell you about it.
And then you would get an interest in that respect.
Maybe you came across a book, which was difficult back then because there wasn't the wide range
(24:58):
of books that there are now that you could read to make you more inquisitive about Wicca
and witchcraft.
There were message boards in witchy stores that used to advertise groups.
You could find groups through your friends or your lovers.
(25:21):
They would mention it.
They would say, you know, I think you might make a good fit for this.
Also publications would advertise different groups that you could join for training and
festivals.
So those are the different places that we had back in the day in order to find like-minded
(25:44):
people.
And I think that's really shifted from the current landscape and we can talk about this
more later.
In the current landscape, it's much more online.
Remember we used to have, you know, witchvox, RIP witchvox, which used to be the major meeting
hub for paganism and Wiccan and druids, asatru, whatever.
(26:07):
It was all included in there.
And it was nice because it was a one-stop shop and it was promoted in books and everyone
knew about it.
And then it started waning.
Eventually the owners just gave it up and it now exists as, I'm not sure if it's even
a blog, it just, but they dropped pretty much everything.
(26:28):
And now there's a gap in the community as to where to go.
And I think we're too online at this point to go back to certainly the old days of posting
it on the corkboard at your local occult shop.
I don't think people are doing that or would be keen to go back to that.
So there really is a gap in terms of connecting seekers to traditions.
(26:52):
And that's especially hard when we're talking about the gardenarian tradition, which at
least in the U.S. here is primarily along the coasts, right?
You have a lot of covens on the East coast and some covens on the West coast and not
really a whole lot in between when you compare them to the totality.
So that can certainly make finding a coven more difficult.
(27:14):
And that goes back to, I'm sure we're going to talk about later about traveling and lowering
your expectations about finding a wise grandmother high priestess in the next town over, which
probably will not be the case for you.
Right.
Well, and if we're talking about online resources, because I think that's a whole topic and we're
(27:34):
going to get into that shortly, I do want to mention that in replacement of Witchvox,
there are two resources available.
You have Darks and Moon, which is, you know, www.darksandmoon.com that has some of those
resources and then Mandragora Magica is also a place for that.
Those are for general, any group.
There is no restriction on that.
(27:55):
If you're a group and you're operating as a meetup or you're operating as a coven or
training group, whatever, you can be found there.
So it's a good resource if you aren't sure if you want to do traditional gardenarian
wicca or if you do and you can go there and you can find really what you're looking for
within the area.
One caveat is, of course, not everybody's listed there, right?
(28:16):
So there are groups that are dark.
There are groups that are only operating in different ways, but it's a good starting place.
But also mention there's another online resource and that's gardenarian.us.
This is for traditional gardenarians in the USA only.
But every one of the covens there is personally vouched for and is valid.
(28:39):
So if you don't find a coven in your state, there are automated contact forms available
on that website.
So you can message other legitimate traditional gardenarians and ask them, hey, I live in
Wyoming.
I don't see a coven in Wyoming.
Do you know of one?
And they will get back to you and provide you with that community connection where you
(29:02):
can possibly find a coven that's closer to you, even if it's not listed on the website.
And just to mention those resources as well.
So as Hermes mentioned, there's the gardenarian.us source for these groups and they're actually
verified.
But also if you want to reach out on social media, which is probably the main way that
we reach out nowadays or people have been doing, the traditional resources include the
(29:26):
gardenarian initiates open forum for seekers on Facebook as well as traditional gardenarian
Wicca, a Seekers Hub.
You can find those of those on Facebook if you want to reach traditional gardenarians.
As Iris Star mentioned, there are other ways to meet groups.
You can go to festivals.
You can go to meetups.
Usually somebody who's running a meetup is going to be running a group.
(29:48):
That's very common.
And Wicca 101s.
Or go to pagan shops.
You can go to pagan shops, ask them if they know any local groups or like Hermes said,
check the bulletin.
There are some groups that are going to operate that way for a variety of reasons.
So check everywhere.
If you're not liking what you're seeing, you know, somewhere else, or if it's not meeting
(30:08):
your need, you never know when you're going to make a connection with someone.
So what should you do when you find a coven?
So there's a right way to go about this and a wrong way to go about this.
Usually the coven will provide some sort of contact information.
Sometimes out of 10, that's going to be an email, but it might also be a phone number.
(30:30):
How you compose your first email or your first phone call with that coven will determine
as to whether you get a response or not.
So the number one rule is be respectful and keep it short.
What you want to include is, hi, my name is John Smith.
(30:53):
I'm looking for a coven to learn Gardnery and Wicca from.
I found your information on X.
Can you send me more information if you're seeking students at this time?
You know, respectfully, sincerely, John.
So yeah, so to what Hermes is stating, just be respectful, be inquisitive.
(31:15):
The initial contact is really just about establishing, is something even there at the end of the
line, right?
And can we initiate this process?
That's the point of the first contact.
Oversharing is not necessary and you might be nervous.
You might say something you wouldn't normally say.
Or think that you know what they want to hear and you don't.
(31:35):
I think sometimes it may seem simple enough, but I think just telling them how to go about
that initial contact.
I mean, some people might think it's really easy to do that.
Yeah, when I heard you say that, I said, oh, that's a good way to go.
Yeah, that's true.
And I included that because I think people, I hate to be the curmugony get off my lawn
(31:57):
guy, but people have decreased their standards as we move towards a more online age.
And people don't know how to write emails and do messages in a way that they don't introduce
slang or it comes off as disrespectful or they're using Netspeak and things like that.
(32:20):
You want to present that you're a person who has everything together and doesn't come off
as flippant.
And I think that composing a unprofessional email certainly leads to those elements.
So after you send out an email and you receive an email back, usually the next part of the
(32:42):
process will be some sort of interview.
And nowadays, the interviews are conducted usually online, although my interview was
conducted in person, both the Cummins that I joined, or it might be over the phone.
And again, it all depends on whether you can meet with the high priest and the high priestess
or whether there has to be some sort of technological intervention in that.
(33:08):
And as far as the interview process, some things that I would say is be honest.
You will be fact-checked and you will most likely have a social media search done of
you, at least basic, you know, Facebook, LinkedIn, just to get some more information about you
before the high priest and high priestess meet with you.
(33:30):
And it's okay to say that you don't know.
I've done many interviews and oftentimes I'll ask a question and the person clearly doesn't
know what I was asking and they'll pontificate on a random topic.
And it's just okay for you to say that you don't know because that's what the whole training
is about.
You know, we aren't looking for specific answers.
(33:52):
We're just looking for, are you open to receiving knowledge or is your brain already full and
it can't hold anymore?
I think we're also looking at fit, right?
Because it's not just about what the answers are.
It's kind of how a person goes about what they're saying and doing and what they're
interested in.
(34:12):
You know, if I'm asking questions and you're saying, oh, I'm interested in something that
might align more with a Druid practice or a Sartre or some other thing, that's important
for me to know because this might not be the right fit for you.
And you may get questions, follow-up questions about that.
So the interview process that we do, we tend to meet with people on Zoom first.
(34:32):
We like to meet face-to-face in that part of the process.
And we kind of suss out these details.
You know, if we feel that you're someone who might be a good fit and that you're mentally
in a good place with where you want to go, right?
You have some idea of what you want to do, then we may say, okay, we'll come to training.
We do a rolling admission training, so you can come in at any time.
(34:53):
Different groups have different things.
Some start cohorts, some, you know, will individually train people based only on what they need.
It really depends on who you're working with.
But we have rolling and we have the whole purpose is for people to really understand
is Gardener and Wight are the right thing for them.
And then us to know, are you a good fit and to see that over time.
(35:13):
So that's kind of the point of the interview process and then rolling into the training.
I don't know, Iris Star, if you want to talk a little bit about, you know, the year and
day of training and that versus maybe other models that you've seen.
Well, when we get a seeker that reaches out to us through email, we normally ask them
(35:35):
for a day and time once we've, you know, kind of researched them on the internet.
But we ask them for a day or a time that they can meet at a diner.
You know, that way we can sit for an hour, give them a meal and it's more relaxed and
you can really get to learn what that person is about, even if it is for only an hour.
(36:01):
And you can find if they're, you know, open to you as well as you being open to them.
Then we normally send them out a questionnaire to fill out.
We have like 10 questions on there and ask them to send it back.
Apparently, the questionnaire has been around for a long time because I know that my initial
(36:25):
group in the 80s had a questionnaire as well and we were asked to fill out that questionnaire.
I happened to meet the group through a friend of mine that lived in the area and this group
was like an hour and 15 minutes away.
Come to find out there actually was a working coven like within like three to four minutes,
(36:53):
depending on lights at that time that I could have actually joined.
So you never know what your initial group is going to end up to be.
You know, it's up to the gods who you get.
So generally training is going to last traditionally for a year and a day and that's not a set
(37:14):
standard sometimes if we know that the person is ready and they petition to join because
you have to petition to join even after you've been accepted for training.
If they petition to join, we might accept them a little bit earlier, but basically the
year and a day process for training is put in place so that not only can we evaluate
(37:37):
the student, but the student can also evaluate the group and see if it's right for them.
As been mentioned before on this podcast, every coven has their own different flavor
and so if a coven doesn't work right for you, you can always try another one and as Iris
Star was saying, there might be a coven that's even closer to you that you won't know about
(37:59):
until you make contact with the other coven that you're training with now and they might
have contacts to know if there's a closer group.
Hermes, you had mentioned earlier, you know, travel expectations and the seeker.
So I just want to touch on this a little more.
You will likely have to travel.
Most people have to travel.
If you're lucky, that'll be a 30 minute or a 15 minute, which is not really travel, but
(38:22):
if you're not as lucky, you're probably looking at at least an hour.
Some people have traveled, you know, multiple hours to get where they need to go.
It's usually once a month, especially once you're initiated once or twice a month.
That is part of the dedication to training.
When covens were much thinner on the ground, probably I would say that in the 70s and 80s
and although Iris Star, you know, you correct me, some people would take plane rides.
(38:45):
Some people would drive hours to get where they needed to go.
So we're lucky in the sense that there are more covens than there used to be available
for training, but there are pockets of the country where that's not the case and so that
decision still needs to be made if this is what you want.
I always go back to fit, you know, if you, if this is really what somebody wants, then
(39:06):
the travel is worth it.
So it's just something to keep in mind.
Yeah, I would agree.
As Eowyn said, in the 70s and 80s, it was not uncommon to hear of people making three
to six hour drives and even plane rides to seek a gardenerium coven.
What it comes down to is what do you want?
I knew from the onset when I was pagan that I wanted to be gardenerian, full stop.
(39:30):
And so I actually passed up at least two other covens and they offered me initiation too.
I was like, no, I want a gardenerian coven.
And so in that I knew that I'd have to travel and that was a sacrifice that I was willing
to make because I wanted to be a member of that tradition.
(39:53):
If you want to be a member of that tradition, you know, you will find a way to make that
happen.
Well, we would agree that the seeker needs to be able to get themselves there and on
time otherwise if the seeker can't make it because we do realize that family things come
(40:14):
up, you know, some of these seekers have children or they have elderly moms and dads where things
will come up.
So we understand when things happen in a person's day to day life, but they would want to send
us out a text as soon as they know it.
(40:35):
So if they know that they can't show up, they should send us a text.
Now this could cause a delay in their training.
They may need to go longer than a year and a day.
So it's imperative for them to get there as soon as, you know, as often as they can in
(40:56):
order to not extend their training process.
And I think that this kind of goes into like dedication to practice, right?
Because you said people need to be there on time.
They need to make it a priority.
The year in a day shows us whether or not you're serious about seeking because when
you become an initiate, there's a whole other level of work you have to do.
(41:17):
And while that can be paced out based on the seekers need, most of the time with the secret
training, we really want to see that you have the capacity to sustain your interest in this
and that you're going to dedicate time.
Because remember, the people that are training you, at least in Gardenerica, at least in
traditional Gardenerica, we aren't charging for that training.
We will never do that.
(41:37):
And we are taking significant amounts of our time to do this for you.
It is a calling for us.
It is work for us that we do that the gods call us to do.
But be mindful of that because we're asking you for something valuable.
We're asking you for your time.
And we're giving you our time.
Both are much more valuable than money or other things like that.
So be mindful of that and show your dedication if you want to be initiated.
(42:01):
It's really, really important to do that.
And I would also say when you show up, show up, show up.
Be ready to learn.
So real briefly, if we're talking about what is the point of training, for most groups
it's going to be initiation.
For most seekers, it's initiation.
So just to note, when you're a seeker, we will typically not ask you to initiate.
(42:26):
That's really one of the tenets of our tradition.
We don't ask you.
We don't cross the lines.
You have to ask us for initiation.
Usually that will occur closer to the end of the training.
If someone is more advanced, we might say to them, we feel you've met the parameters
and we might bring up, do you want to ask for initiation?
You can do that at any time going forward.
(42:47):
So we might give you that prompt.
However, it is up to you to make that decision.
That might be to the year and a day fully.
It could be before that.
It could be after that.
You could be asked if you're not showing what we need to see.
You could be asked to stay on if you're training for longer.
Now I am, of course, speaking of an American model.
And I don't want to speak for all Gardinerians in that respect.
(43:09):
But that is something just to be aware of when it comes to initiation.
I would have to agree with that because funny story, when I was seeking initiation, I thought
that it would be up to the coven to let me know that they specifically chose me.
(43:34):
Like I thought that I was waiting for them to choose me and say, yes, you're the type
of person that we want.
You know, we want you like Uncle Sam, I guess.
And so while I'm waiting for them to ask me, of course, they're waiting for me to ask them.
(43:57):
And they aren't back then.
They didn't tell you what you had to do.
Like Erwin, I hear you saying that sometimes you kind of prompt them what they need to
do.
I think that that's a really good thing to do because some people have learned throughout
their lives not to ask these questions, that it's something that they will let you know
(44:22):
if you're deserving.
And so, yeah.
Yeah.
And that's just a stylistic choice because I am very like, what's next?
What I need to do next in everything because my life is crazy.
So a lot of times with the speakers, I'll try to keep them on a pace.
But at the end of the day, they make that decision.
And I think that's really critical.
(44:43):
And it's different from other places.
You're going to find other religions may pressure you into giving money, giving time, giving
attention, becoming this, becoming that.
Gardnery, Wicca, we do not do that.
And there's a lot of reasons for that.
And one of them I would say is the responsibility.
We talked about, you know, you're going to be a priest or priestess.
Nobody should be taking that on lightly ever.
(45:05):
You know, so this is just one step and one part of that.
Thank you for listening to this episode of the TradGuard Wicca podcast.
Please join us next time for part two of this episode, The Seeker Experience and Finding
a Group.
Thank you.
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