Orchestral Mixing & Mastering with Joël Dollié

Richard Interviews orchestral mixing and mastering engineer Joël Dollié about life as a freelance mixing engineer, course creator, and plugin developer.

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Episode Transcript

Rich (00:00):
Hey guys, and welcome to another episode of the Trailer

(00:02):
Music Composers podcast.
Today I'm absolutely thrilled tohave a superstar mixing engineer
with me.
He's looking bashful now.
Joel Doe.
For those of you in the audiencewho don't know, Joel, would you
care to take a moment tointroduce yourself and tell us
what it is you do?

Joël (00:22):
Yeah.
Thanks Rich.
Thanks for having me.
Hi everybody.
My name is Joel dk.
So I'm a mixing engineer whospecialized in orchestral
mixing.
So I do soundtracks for gamestraveler music of course, and,
you know, all kinds oforchestral related things.
Now I do a few more things, butusually people contact me for
orchestral stuff.
So yeah, I do samples and liveorchestra and yeah, all fun

(00:43):
stuff.

Rich (00:45):
Now I've been requested many times to have you on the
podcast.
I'm super thrilled to have you.
Because as we talked before theshow, there aren't many
engineers who specialize inorchestral and specifically
trailer music.
Because let's face it it's apretty specific niche and as you

(01:06):
said, a lot of composers.
Do the mixing themselves, andthen some special people in the
audience do their masteringthemselves as well.
But for me I'm one of thesepeople, one of these composers
who likes to hand the mixing,even the mixing over to somebody
like yourself.

(01:27):
Yeah, I think

Joël (01:27):
the, you know, as you said there, there aren't too many
engineers who specialize inthat, and I think it's because
it's probably not worth it formost composers because, you
know, there is not too manypeople who really make a lot of
money with try music.
I mean, for most people it'sjust like a side income.
So investing in full mixes whenyou don't have the the certainty
that it'll be placed is kind ofrisky, which is understandable.

(01:50):
But, you know, there is still aplace, of course for trailer
mixing, I think because you havelabels who can.
Pay for mixing directly, eventhough it's kind of rare.
And then you have composers whoreally want to invest in
specific tracks, you know?
But you know, I think that's thereason why it is what it is.

Rich (02:05):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think it's also, it's aspecial skill.
It's kind of like somebody'sspecializing in beat production.
You know, the way you approachorchestral writing and
orchestral mixing is a thingunto itself.
Now, my question to you is, howon earth did you get into

Joël (02:21):
it?
Yeah, so it's quite aninteresting story.
Yeah, so I would say it startedin 2014 as a composer, you know,
because I listened to two stepsfrom hell and all that kind of
stuff when I was a kid likeeverybody else.
And yeah, after a while I waslike, okay, maybe I should try
to do this myself.
It looks interesting.
I noticed like there is contactlibraries and all that stuff.

(02:43):
So in 2014, so quite a while agoI started with with that.
Then after making a few tracks,you know, I realized that I.
Was more interested in theproduction aspect, the mixing
aspect.
So mixing and mastering, becauseI was just spending like way
more time on just mixing mytracks compared to composing.
So yeah, that's really kind ofwhen I transitioned in 2016.

(03:04):
So a few, couple years afterafter I started.
And then, you know, it kind of.
Started from there, I startedmixing tracks for friends.
So just make close friends atthe beginning, and then it kind
of branched out, you know, fromfriend to friend of friend who
to actual clients.
And you know, slowly I just kindof.
Stopped composing?

(03:24):
Well, I still composed from timeto time, but I just kind of
transitioned from composing tomixing like from 2016 to 2018.
And then 2018 is when I reallystarted doing mixing full-time,
like hardcore, you know, likeonly mixing.
And yeah, that's kind of how itwent.

Rich (03:40):
So That's awesome.
And also it's really nice cuzit's kind of, kind of the exact
opposite.
Obviously we both startedcomposing But my thing was I
realized I was spending less andless on the production and more
and more time on just generatingthe ideas, because that's the
thing that I like just gettingthe ideas out and then being
like, ah, someone else canpolish this.
You know?

(04:00):
So it's very interesting.
Now the thing with being afreelancer is it's not talked
about enough as to.
How difficult is, you know?
Oh, yeah.
And how stressful it can be andhow you are not just doing a
job, you are doing countlessjobs.

(04:21):
I mean, what's your experiencebeen of being a freelance mixing
engineer?
Yeah.

Joël (04:26):
You know, I think it's I think I had it easy compared to
many people because I had theopportunity to kind of start all
of this at my father's house,cuz you know, I was middle tw 20
or 18 back then when I reallykind of started taking this
seriously.
So I had United safety net.
But I think it's extremelydifficult for people who
previously had like a job andthey need to kind of transition

(04:48):
into this.
While still, you know, payingthe bills and stuff like that.
So I can imagine it's way moredifficult for them, but for me
it was still quite stressfulbecause, as you said, there are
many facets to this job.
Like you need to learn about somany things.
Like you need to go from zerolike not knowing anything about
business.
To knowing how to run abusiness.
And even though it's not themost complicated business to

(05:09):
manage, you still have to learnabout bills, what they don't
teach you in school.
You know, like business specificbills, you know, various from c
from country to country.
But there is a lot of likeadministrative stuff to, to
figure out and you know, justlike plan for the future.
You have to be more, you have toplan more for the future
because, You, your income willvary a lot.

(05:29):
So you can't just plan things aseasily.
So you have to save more money.
You have to, yeah you have toaccount for a lot more things, a
lot more details.
You have to learn about socialskills, communication.
I think, well, I guess how youdo this in a normal job as well.
But you have to learn aboutquoting, you know, what's your
worth?
So lots of little things youdon't necessarily think of at

(05:50):
the beginning that you need tobe good at in order to be a
successful freelancer.
Yeah.
I think when, if you transitionfrom like once, like a salary
job to this, it can be verydifficult cuz you don't have
enough time to do all of this.
But for me it was a little biteasier, as I said, because
because of that, my situation.

Rich (06:06):
You you touched on absolute golden nugget there,
which was this question that youdo have to confront as a
freelancer, which is what isyour worth?
Yes.
Yes.
That's a surprising thing.
Cause all of a sudden yourealize how insecure you are.
You go, what is my worth?
Oh, nothing.
$5, just give me some money, youknow?

Joël (06:26):
Yeah.
And then you have some peoplewho go the opposite way and they
think, oh, I guess I'm gonna dothey're gonna Google are,
they're gonna Google, like, howmuch should the freelancer
charge?
Oh, 600 a day.
Okay, sure.
Boom.
Let's try to do 600 a day.
And then like you tell people,okay, I'm gonna make a track for
you for 600 a day.
Oh, by the way, I don't know howmany days I'm gonna take.
Is that okay with you?
Yeah.

(06:46):
That's not how it works, youknow?
So you have to kinda figure outlike the middle ground and you
know it.
Yeah.
You know, it takes a bit, Ithink, but then you,

Rich (06:58):
I think you're right that it does take a while.
It's kinda like I was readingabout people starting Businesses
on Five and all these tacticsthey use, for those of you who
don't know the audience five, islike this freelancer website
essentially where you pay, theidea is that you pay a five for
someone to do something.
It's very rarely ever a fiver.
Oh yeah.
But people were sort of saying,if you wanna start it, you go in

(07:20):
rock bottom price just to buildup a reputation and get money
coming in.
And then you start raising yourprices.
And I think actually that's notthat you'd necessarily go rock
bottom, but that's quite a goodway to think about starting as a
freelancer.
You go in at entry level.
And as you develop your.
Skills and reputation, you thenstart raising your prices.

(07:41):
Yeah,

Joël (07:41):
I mean, you're kind of, I mean, you're kind of forced to
do that.
I mean, nobody will hire you ifyou don't have anything, any
credits, nothing.
And you ask for the same priceas someone with credits.
I mean, it doesn't make sense.
And if you are, even if thequality of your work is good,
just the quality of your work isnot enough, sadly.
So you need like both, you needskills and reputation, and that

(08:01):
takes time.
Yeah, I actually use five quitea bit.
Not myself like, but to hirepeople to do like web design and
stuff like that.
So it is definitely more thanfive.
It's more like a hundred.
But you get a lot done for ahundred, so it's still a good

Rich (08:14):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Or it is five and it's if it wasone tweet design.
Yeah.
That's it.
Yeah.

Joël (08:19):
Make one button.

Rich (08:20):
Yeah.
That's it.
Yeah.
And then it's$2,000 for thewhole website.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, I use five quite a lot forother musicians.
Again, same thing.
It's rarely a five or it's, youknow, 5,000, couple hundred
dollars.
And actually it's a fantasticresource for anyone listening,
by the way.
Yeah.
But yeah, so the other thing,you mentioned it there.

(08:41):
It's not just like soft skills,like being a nice person or you
know, not necessarily being anice person, but being a nice
person with clear boundariesthat everyone understands and
respects.
Yeah.
It's also you have to do all theaccounting, or at least Yeah.
Understand the accounting andthen you have to understand your
finances.
And then you just touched onthis one, which I think is a
huge one that no one talksabout.
It's your ability to understandwebsites, you know, cuz you like

(09:05):
myself.
You're not just a Mixi engineer.
Yeah.
True.
And you've got a lot of otherstuff going on.
So let's talk about that otherstuff, because I think as a
freelancer it's really importantto understand, it's good to have
other irons in other fires, youknow?
Yeah,

Joël (09:21):
sure.
At least, I mean, in theopinion, I think a freelancer
should have at least two things,you know, at least two sources
of income that are, they can beconnected, but somewhat separate
because.
You never know when walk raiseup.
You know, even big freelancersthat I know are pretty famous.
They have some months where theyhave just half the income they
would have in another month, forexample.

(09:42):
Usually August is pretty badcompared to February for
example.
Depends on the industry ofcourse.
But anyway, so if you have acertain lifestyle and even
though you save your money andyou know, everything is fine, if
you want to kind of.
Not be stressed.
I think you should have at leasttwo sources of income that way,
you know, when you have a lowmonth, you have at least the
other activity to kind ofprocure up a little bit.

(10:04):
So yeah, so personally I havewhat do I have?
So I have.
I have a few things.
So I do my mixing services, ofcourse, then I do private
lessons.
You know, it's very linkedbecause if you can mix stuff for
people, you can teach mixing,well, not necessarily, you know,
you need to learn how to explainconcepts, but you know it's
possible.
So you have this second activitythen.

(10:26):
Somewhat related as well.
I sell courses, so I made amixing course with master Thek
and back then I had a coursethat I released myself in 2018.
And also I sell an ebook, soalso related, it's an ebook on
Amazon.
It's pretty small, but you know,it's a good entry to orchestra
mixing.
Then I also make plugins, sothat's a new venture because I

(10:47):
started in December of 2022.
And it's not the thing, you canjust start like that.
I had to learn about a lot ofstuff to, to start this, but
yeah, it's really interesting sofar.
I love it.
So plugins and then I thinkmaybe I'm forgetting.
No I guess that's it.
I guess that's it.
You know, I have a few things.
I try to diversify my my income.
So of course it varies a lot.

(11:08):
You know, my main income by faris mixing and mastering for
clients and, you know, but allthis stuff helps as well.
So just like mentally, when youhave a low month, you're like,
okay, that's fine.
I'm still gonna sell a fewcourses and I'm still gonna sell
a few plugins.
And, you know, So you just feelbetter as a freelancer because
if you're salaried, it's okay.
You know, you're gonna get Xamount each month.

(11:28):
You don't have to worry aboutthings.
You can know exactly what youcan do.
But yeah, as a freelancer, Ithink you need some kind of side
income, even if it's just likeon your website, a section to,
to do private lessons.
You know, there is, there willbe a few people who are
interested at least even with asmall online presence, they're
gonna have a few people who willbe interested at some point.
So it's Wolf doing this, Ithink.

Rich (11:50):
Dude, I couldn't agree more to have lots of things.
I mean, I mean that's, it soundslike you've got a lot on,
essentially it's mixing teachingand plugin development.

Joël (12:01):
Yeah.
I guess that's the three mainpillars of what they do.

Rich (12:04):
Yeah, and I think, you know, I mean that's take out the
plugin development.
I mean, that's not toodissimilar from me.
It's the writing and it's theteaching and the teaching.
You know, it's quite expansivefor me at the, at this point in
time, which I absolutely love.
But, it's that same thing.
It's oh, got some core salescoming in.
You know, it doesn't matter thatI didn't land a placement this
month.

(12:25):
You know?
Yeah.
I think it's really fantasticadvice.
Let's let's talk about thisplug-in development thing,
because this is, as you said, anew venture for you.
What was it that got you intothat?

Joël (12:37):
Yeah.
You know, it's kind of this ideawhich I've had for a while
because, you know, I have abunch of plugins, of course as a
mixing engineer and.
I'm always like, okay, so thisplugin does this and this plugin
does that, and I have thisspecific process which I can do
only with grouping these twoplugins in the chain.
It's kind of annoying.
So what if I could just make myideal plugin with all the

(12:59):
features I need to do this?
And then, okay, I have anotheridea.
I also do this, but it doesn'tsound quite exactly like I want
if any, I could tweak thisplugin to make it like this.
And yeah, so it's, it is justlike buy mixing and buy
experiencing.
I like different plugins.
You kind start noticing thingsyou like and things you don't
like about certain plugins.

(13:21):
Then after a while you realizewhen you kind of dive in deep
inside the mechanics of eachplugin and you try to understand
why you like what you like, thenyou kind of get into the plugin
dev mindset, I would say,because you know exactly like
what is going on in this plugin.
You deconstruct it and youunderstand why this process
sounds good or why it sounds theway it is.
Like an example I could take isOkay, so I'm trying to create a

(13:44):
really transparent room withnice early reflections that just
adds depth, but like in atransparent way.
So what is the best way toachieve that?
Do you need like whole earlyreflections?
So for people who don't knowwhat early reflec reflections
are, it's just like the frontend of a river, basically.
So it's just an example I'mtrying to take to illustrate the
mindset of plugin development,but okay, so you realize that in

(14:05):
order to create a good depththat's.
Fully neutral and doesn't reallydestroy the sound you need
relatively short, earlyreflections.
So now it's how do I design thebest short, early reflections,
you know, to give me like adepth that I like on many
sources and make an actualuseful plugin.
And you know, that's kind of howI develop my first plugin.
I figure out that it's actuallyquite simple.
You just need a few delays andyou can really create a nice.

(14:27):
White field that's going to betransparent and work on many
sources.
So it's just by kind ofanalyzing what certain plugins
are doing and figuring outexactly why it's working for
you.
And you know, I think for meit's kind of like that, that I'm
not doing like crazy AI plugins,you know, with like super
complicated algorithms.
The mindset of my company JDFactory.
It's more like creating niceplugins, which are, you know,

(14:51):
give you like instant results.
And that just sound good, youknow?
And I'm not noting to create thelatest like resonance suppressor
because you know, there ispeople who with huge resources.
Same for Rev.
There is people with massiveresources for research, rivers
in facilities and stuff likethat.
You know, I think it's not myrole to do this.
I'm not gonna make the bettercinematic rooms.
No way.
But you know, just find theselittle things which are not yet

(15:14):
in the plugin form and that arejust really cool and useful.
So lots of the change that I doin my mixing process com, like
are composed of several plugins.
So I try to kind of make theideal workflow and create
plugins with that.
And, you know, I think if I likeit, some people will like it as
well.
That's my thing.

Rich (15:33):
Nice.
I think the thing is like theway you're talking about it
completely.
Explains what makes you excitedabout what you do.
Because I'm, you know, I knowsome people would load a plugin
and not think what is it aboutthis plugin that works and that
I'd like and I use Exactly.
You know, some people just loadup sometimes I do that, I load
it up and I go, nice.
And that's it.

(15:53):
You know, job done.
You know, I'm not thinking, Iwonder, you know, it's in the
same way.
You know, you could load updifferent compressions and say
to yourself like, what is eachindividual compression doing
differently and why?

Joël (16:06):
And how.
Yeah, I mean, it's the, forexample, the I don't know if
some people know this one, the,I think it's called the ACM e
Opticum Compressor by PluginAlliance.
It's the green compressor.
I mean, it's pretty popular.
It's like a green opticalcompressor.
Like it sounds really good indrums.
So then it's like, why?
Well, I noticed that it actuallydistorts a lot.
This thing is like it's like acrazy distortion and the er at

(16:28):
the same time.
So it really gives you it reallykind of runs off the transient
of all your drums, you know?
So it makes them much, muchfatter because it saturates them
a lot.
So it's okay it's the comor witha relatively kind of slow attack
and saturation.
So you get more definition inthe kick, but you don't get the
clicky sound because it'scrunching the transient as well
see, just Thisor by itself, youknow, it's two plugins in one.

(16:49):
So then I realized, okay, that'sthe sound I like.
So I actually, I like saturationand big drums.
Just a little I like to reallyover overanalyze plugins.
Sometimes I even put them inPlugin Doctor.
It's a plugin that allows you todeconstruct a plugin and find
out what each process is doing.
So Plugin Doctor is called, it'spretty interesting.
You load a plugin and you have abunch of graphs and you can see

(17:11):
like kind of inside the plugin.
What's doing?
So yeah, basically I'm in theother story.
I was gonna

Rich (17:18):
say, we've gone super, haven't we?
We've gone into graphs fromplugins.
Okay.
No, but this is great.
This is the thing like, Yourpassion freak.
It clearly comes out.
And that's, this is greatbecause we need people like you
doing that work because that'show we get these great plugins
that we all know and love.
Someone's done somethingslightly different.

(17:40):
They've gone, I like this in aplugin, but can it do this?
And you know, and that's where,you know, like for instance, if
I was to ever make a plugin, Iprobably would've tried to do
pool stretch.

Joël (17:52):
Oh yeah.
That's one.
It's cool,

Rich (17:54):
which is, those of you don't know.
It just it, I have no idea howit works.
I don't know how it does it, butit does it magically.
You know, it stretches audiowithout getting the artifacts.
You can stretch like a fivesecond sound to become two hours
long.
Without having any horribledigital artifacts.
It's,

Joël (18:14):
It's probably just it's probably interpolating stuff and
just adding content, likecopying samples and modifying
them slightly and just likeinserting samples, I think in
the middle of, and that's theonly way, it's not like
literally stretching, like we'renot missing data.
I think it's adding data.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But it's pretty interesting.
It's really kind of a geniusthing for pads and stuff like
that.

Rich (18:33):
It is, it's basically just a massive copy paste machine,
isn't it?

Joël (18:37):
Yeah.
I think it must be, and I reallydon't know how it works, but it
has to be adding data.
Otherwise it would just be like,yeah,

Rich (18:43):
well, yeah, five seconds to two hours, it'd be like,

Joël (18:48):
yeah, like one sample every 20 seconds.
Just you know,

Rich (18:51):
yeah.
Yeah.
No, this is it's reallyfascinating because actually the
way you are talking aboutplugins is I think, Your a
brilliant piece of advice foranyone who wants to improve
their mixing and masteringskills is to analyze the
plug-ins to think, okay.

(19:11):
That just put bit more simply,like you said, what is it that I
like about this and what is itdoing?
Yeah.
You know, I like I often like tobounce mid into audio.
And then bounce that audiothrough a plugin so I can then
see what it's done to thewaveform.
So you go, ah, it smushed itlike this, you know, then.
Because that, for me, I'm avisual, very visual person, so I

(19:34):
see the visual element of it.
Yeah.
But yeah.
That's awesome.
So that's those of youinterested, it's JD Factory.
Is it.com or,

Joël (19:42):
yeah, that's tall.
Yeah, jd,

Rich (19:45):
Oh, dot store.
Okay, cool.
Yeah, I'll put a link in thenotes JD Factory store.
I'm gonna head over there in asecond.
So

Joël (19:51):
Yeah, for now I just have one plugin.
It's called OID now, but I'mmaking another one, so that one
will come out soon.
Okay.
Tell us about

Rich (19:58):
room Widener.

Joël (19:59):
Wrong way, TOK.
It's that's what I was talkingabout with the earlier
reflections.
So it's a way to kind of adddepth to your sound, but it's
it's not just like a rev revolvebecause basically what it does
is that it creates oppositereflections compared to the
source.
So say you have a source panleft, it's going to create
reflections on the right.
So it's like a depth, but alsowide enough by adding.

(20:20):
Like content.
So if you have the left, it'llcreate the sort of river, it's
not really a river, but it'llcreate the reflections opposite,
so you end up with a spreadeffect as well as the depth
effect.
So it's kind of doing well.
It is great for dry mics, youknow, like VSL stuff, for
example.
Even though you don'tnecessarily recommend like intra
music with VSL stuff.

(20:40):
But it's going to add depth toyour, like your dry recordings
or even like weather sources.
For example, c s but likelibraries which are not super,
we, you know, I don't know ifyou really need it on spit for
your stuff, but for C S C S Bcinematic studio bra and string,
for people who don't know, it'skind of nice libraries, but they
have a bit of a small room soyou can use it to just enhance

(21:01):
the size of the room and makethe room feel bigger than it
actually is.
Yeah, that's that's what itdoes.

Rich (21:08):
So it's essentially, Correct.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
Essentially kind of doubling thereverb.

Joël (21:17):
It's a pre reverb stage.
You would put this as an inserton your strings bus before,
before a whole reverb.
And it would sort of simulate afurther away sounding make
position in a way by addingthese little delays and these
little other reflections.
It's a bit like as if you movedthe decat tree a bit more far
away in the room, as if the roomwas a bit bigger and then you
have to throw the whole thinginto a river.

(21:38):
Right.
So it's like a mid stage, likeyou would put this as an insert
on the strings bus, for example.
That's what I would recommend.

Rich (21:46):
Ah, okay.
Okay.
So I did a session with anorchestra.
Oh, why me?
15 years ago, and the engineer,this is in London, the engineer
was asked by the client, Theysaid, why?
Why does it, the strings notsound big enough?
And he said, just gimme asecond.
And he did some stuff on thedesk and pushed up a fade and
Evan went, wow.

Joël (22:06):
And he probably raised the Alteryx.

Rich (22:09):
Yeah.
All he did was he doubled thesignal of the reverb from, I
can't remember this.
Was the decry or the A riggers.
Oh really?
You basically just Left right.
Panned the reverb.
Oh, really interesting.
Yeah, it was.
He didn't tell them at the time.
He was just like, ah, tradesecret.
And then when they went in, hewas like, let me show you what I
did.

(22:29):
That's cool.
Yeah.
But it's that type of thing.
Yeah.
Where, you know, my naturalapproach as the client's natural
place approach would be, let'sbuy more string players.
You know, let's buy a biggerroom.

Joël (22:43):
Oh yeah.
Buying a bigger room is usuallythe best way, but it's a bit
expensive.

Rich (22:47):
Yes.
Yeah.
That's it.
But now let's room widen now.

Joël (22:50):
Oh yeah.
Which, it's not I don't get yourhopes like too much.
Cause.
It's not gonna replace Ibu rude,but you know, it can make your
room like 20% bigger and

Rich (23:02):
awesome.
And PS I love how minimal it is.
I'm just looking at the, it'spretty simple.
Yeah.
But the thing is, I really loveplugins like that.
I've I always, when you load upa plugin that's just got like
hundreds of controls Yeah.
I go, oh, come on.
I don't have, ain't nobody gottime for this.
Yeah.

Joël (23:19):
Yeah.
Okay, next plugin is gonna havethe next plugin is going to be a
bit more complex, but stillstraightforward.
Okay.
What It's gonna be like a, it'sgonna, I'm just gonna leak what
it is because it's not really aleak.
Cause I've told people before,but it's like a panel but a
panel that's pans moreintelligently.
So in a way you're able to panthe before the lows in various

(23:39):
ways.
So there is a bunch of differentpending algorithms which work
for stereo sources.
So you can pretty much pan thelibrary without paning the room.
So if you want to, for example,to pan like balance strings and
you have the violin, you want topan them more left, but you
don't want to pan all the roomambience cause it would sound
weird and sort of narrow theroom, the natural room ambiance,
right?
Then you can kind of move the,just the violence but not the

(24:00):
room.
So that's what it's doing.

Rich (24:03):
Okay.
Wait a second.
How is it doing that?
Because, okay.
Okay.
So it surely it would move thesame frequencies within the
room.

Joël (24:12):
Yeah, but the thing is the river is ty typically more out
of phase compared to the directsound.
So if you split a panel in midside and then you, yeah,
basically it's it's applyinglike tunnel panning to just the
mid signal.
That's the kind of the smart panknob.
It's, so it's just going to takethe mid signal and leave the
sides, which contain most of theriver, and it's going to apply

(24:34):
tunnel paning to just the mid.
So then you kind of decomposethe mid signal, which is the
mono part of the signal.
You decompose this in drill monoand you sort of brighten one of
the sides off only the midsignal and you darken the other
side.
So it, it applies like tunnel.
So basically you pan the highestfirst.
To the left and on the left sidesorry, wait.

(24:54):
Let me explain this.
So say you, first of all, yousplit in mid side.
So side is mostly rub, right?
And in the mid signal, you putthis in your mono, so you have a
mono left, mono right, in termsof physical channels, right?
And you brighten the left earand you darken the right ear on
only the mono signal.
So you end up maintain thesides.
So you end up not planning thebase of the mono signal not pan

(25:16):
the base of the sides cause it'sjust staying there, but you plan
using the mids and the heightsof just the mono signal, if that
makes sense.
Yeah.
Perfect.
You end up shifting theinstrument in the stage without
truly affecting the room.
You know, I tried differentthings, but this worked best for
me.
And so then it's about, thenit's all about tweaking the
curves to make sure it's naturaland doesn't feel like.

(25:37):
You're brightening the sound andvolume compensation and the
relationships between the midsand the sides as you can,
because if you don't compensatethe level, then it becomes too
wide.
So there is a bunch ofparameters, but basically if you
sort of get all these parametersright, it can sound very
natural.
And that's what I was trying todo here.
That

Rich (25:54):
sounds awesome.
In quite a lot of my courses andI get a lot of flack for this.
I narrow the signal and pan thestrings in their positions.
Oh, you narrow the signal.
And then send it into its ownroom.

Joël (26:10):
So that's interesting because yeah, you're trying to
refocus the instrument, but thenyou have to send it into a room
again.
Otherwise you would just get anarrow sound, right?
Yeah.
So this kind of allows you to,to.
To get more directionality butnot narrow the signal.
So it allows you to kind of keepthe natural room, which in my
opinion is usually better if youcan keep the natural room.

(26:32):
But usually the only way to dothat is just to physically move
the players, you know, yes.
In the room.
So you would end up with a morepan signal naturally.
And but you know, the issue ismany libraries many libraries
don't have enough spread.
And sometimes it's because ofphysical limitations or just the
waste recorded.
So you end up with.
Strings, which are kind ofcentered and you want to spread

(26:53):
them, but then you spread theroom as you pan.
So it's like, how do I notspread?
How do I not pan the room, butjust pan the players?
And that's always the trickyaspect.
Yeah.
So for that you really have touse some kind of tunnel paning.
You can't just use like balancepanning.
Cause just changing the levelsof the panels, sorry.
Changing the levels of thechannels is going to pan the
base as well.

(27:13):
But in real life the base isless directional.
It's more of an omnipresent.
Sort of rumble that is lessdirectional because the waves
can stay on for longer.
So if you were to shift a playerin the real room, you wouldn't
really pan the base.
So that's why you kind of wannabend the highs and the mids
first, and that's why tunnelpaning makes more sense compared
to straight up like balancepaning, if that makes sense.
Yeah.

(27:33):
So lots of little things, youknow, related to physics that
you need to keep in mind.
And yeah, you can, there's somereally interesting stuff you can
do with

Rich (27:40):
See I'd like your explanation of base frequencies.
I dunno if you've ever donethis, we did this at uni, we
loaded up a base on a big sub ina room.
Yeah.
We cranked up super loud and wewalked around the room cuz I'd
heard the term base trap before.
But I'd never like actuallyexperienced it.

(28:02):
So you walk around the room andyou'd, it'd be like, and then
you'd step one foot forward andall of a sudden the base would
just disappear.
Right.
All of sudden you're like, whatthe, you know?
Yeah.

Joël (28:13):
Base is wild.
Yeah.
Sometimes you would have likedouble bases on the right, but
you actually have more wind onthe left just because of the
layout of the room and how thesewaves cancel.
Like you end up If you put themax at a certain spot, you would
end up with more low end on theopposite side, which makes no
sense.
Right.
But yeah, it just base is wild.
So you need to you can't reallycontrol base.
It's just there in the room, youknow, you can't it doesn't make

(28:36):
sense to just have it isolatedin one ear.
So yeah, it can't be like thatin real life.
Like it's so hard to control tobegin with.
We need to put base traps inevery corner.
It's a mess.

Rich (28:45):
Yeah.
That's it.
So it's you kind of, at least toimagine it as like a big cone,
you know, the lowest frequenciesare kind of like slap bang.
In the middle, perhaps even amono signal.
And then as the frequencies gethigher and higher, you can allow
yourself more and more room forpanning.
Yeah,

Joël (29:01):
pretty much.
And well, I would say it's notlike a mono signal because, I
mean, base is stereo.
In real life.
It's very stereo.
But if it's too stereo, then youget cancellation.
And that's bad as well.
So you don't put it too wide.
You can have it a bit wide, butnot too wide, you know?
Yeah.
But then it's yeah,understanding that as the
frequencies go higher, theybecome more directional and.

(29:21):
Like the sound becomes moredirect and you get less audible
phasing, you know?
So yeah, that's really how itis.
The higher frequencies are justless prone to resonating in the
room, so you get more directsound out of the highs, and as
you go lower, they tend to kindof live longer, so they have
more chance to resonate in theroom and come back as in a way,

(29:42):
that's why like whole riversare.
Not super bright just becausethe highs don't have the chance
to kind of bounce and come back.
So the very highest highs, theyjust kind of die off.
And the only very highs you getlike the highest highs.
It's only direct sound from theinstruments like 20 K, you know?
So that's just how physics walkand it's pretty interesting.
I, I love this stuff.

Rich (30:02):
Me too.
Me I mean, cuz I try and explainthis when I'm talking about
using sub hits Yeah.
In trailer music, like we're, weare using them.
For a specific reason we're weare using them to imply
distance.
Yeah.
Because of the physics, the waythe sound works, the base
frequencies travel further.
Exactly.
So by just hearing this huge subsound, We're telling the

(30:24):
listener that there's beensomething massive very far in
the distance.

Joël (30:28):
Right.
And the fact that the tail islong as well, like it, it's
really kind of, it's likenatural behavior of sub.
So you're like, wow that's agiant

Rich (30:35):
sound, you know?
Yeah.
Yeah.
A giant has landed two milesfrom here.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, this is awesome.
This is awesome.
I Now, what I wonder is that nowwe're gonna move slightly away
from nerding out into plug-insand physics.
I'm gonna move slightly in moreinto the, actually, how can we
as composers be better atmixing, especially mixing

(30:59):
orchestral music and trailermusic?
So let's start with this is areally easy one for you.
What are the most commonmistakes you experience when you
are mixing a client's orchestraltrack?

Joël (31:11):
So when I hear a mix from them or like mistakes in their,
in the orchestration and thecomposition or mix mistakes in
their mix, which spoken like a

Rich (31:19):
true professional,

Joël (31:21):
I need to know, it's different, you know?

Rich (31:22):
Okay.
Let's approach.
Arrangements

Joël (31:24):
first.
Okay.
I think in many situations it'sjust that they don't, they
didn't study orchestration, sothey don't know how to write for
orchestra, so they end up withmissing instruments.
That's a pretty common one.
For example, they will.
They will forget about Cubas orthey will just avoid the
trombones weirdly, or they willhave too much instruments in

(31:46):
unison.
So you end up with everything onthe lead, for example just like
one horn line, one baseline.
And then you're kind of missingthe middle harmony, right?
Maybe they forgot to do thetrombone chords, or they forgot
the fifth and the thirds.
So you end up with a texturethat's not very fulfilling.
Doesn't really feel satisfyingbecause you just have too many
voices in the same notes.

(32:08):
And you end up with a texturethat becomes thin and you end up
with buildups at certainfrequency syringes just because
of the fact that they didn'tspread the instruments properly.
So orchestration, likeorchestration mistakes, and
sometimes it's just compositionas well.
Straight up You know, the thevoice leading is not good.
It's just not an interestingmelody and stuff like that, so
that doesn't work.

(32:28):
But when it comes to like travelmusic, I think it's a bit more
related to production itself.
Like the way you stackinstruments to create that
powerful texture like mixingcountry is save a track that's
not orchestrated properly.
And just aside from likeorchestra aside, thein as well
You know, the way you kind ofstack sins, the way you kind of
stack everything really.
Or drums, you know, not usingthe right libraries missing a

(32:50):
big layer, layering drums.
That's also a big one.
Like just relying, for example,on the mid drum layer that's
fairly just has a rumbly sub.
You never doesn't have the punchin the sub or like the hits.
Another big one is the hits.
For example, just using kind ofa noisy, a wimpy hit that's very
like, Bit like a simple crash,but not having like the thumpy

(33:11):
aspect or for example, they wantto use a big trailer hit, but
the low end of that trailer hitis like a low boom.
So you end up with like a verykind of slappy high end, but in,
it doesn't really translate inthe lows because the loads are
pretty flat, dynamicdynamically.
So you have a very kind of clickhigh end that's good for a
trailer hit, I guess.
But then in the loads you don'thave that punch, you don't have
this Short, kind of thy punch.

(33:33):
And I think like for an idealtrailer hit, you need to have
everything.
You need to have some kind ofpunch in the lows and also tail
in the lows.
You need to have some kind ofclick in the highs and also some
kind of tail.
You kind of need everything atonce.
You need to have the mostpowerful hit of all time.
But if you miss when expect, itcan just be passive differently
and just be kind of lame,something.

(33:54):
So yeah, knowing about layeringstacking layers and
orchestration, that's the threemain things.
So usually composers who have abit more of classical background
or a bit more of a, you know,academical background, I would
say they tend to orchestratestuff better, but they're
actually too conservative.
They're afraid of stacking asmany instruments.
They're like, oh, I already haveso many trombone voices.

(34:15):
But, so usually you want to,even the middle ground, you want
someone who's not afraid to justgo unrealistic, but you want
someone who has the knowledgeto.
How to spread instruments inorder to maximize the bigness of
the texture.
And then you have the idealtrail track, you know?
So of course it's not so easy.
It takes years to learn all thisstuff, but that's the really the

(34:36):
main mistakes I encounter, Iwould say.

Rich (34:38):
Okay.
There are so many questions Iwanna ask you right now.
So many questions.
I'm gonna dive straight in forthe trailer hits though.
Yeah, right.
So let's say I'm a novicecomposer or an aspiring trailer
music composer, and I've justbought, say, a Keep forest plug
in and they've got somewonderful sounding trailer hits.

(35:01):
And let's say it's a fullyexpansive, this is the whole kit
and caboodle, you know, this ismy Act three trailer drag and
drop sample.
I drop it in.
It seems like it's got whateverything, but let's say to
your ears, the trained pro.
The sub and the low kicky endare a bit flabby.

(35:23):
What would

Joël (35:24):
you do?
Okay, if it's close enough, Iwouldn't try to layer more stuff
because it can be tricky to justget two sub layers to work
together.
You know, sometimes it works,but sometimes you end up with.
Phasing and it just becomes fla.
So if it's really kind of closeand it's just missing a little
bit, then I would just shape itwith via stores.

(35:46):
So first I would try eq, forexample, if it's just a little
bit too simple like a you know,it just likes this.
This oomph.
Sometimes it just means you needto boost the sub because in
context, a hit will sounddifferent from in solo.
So you could listen to a hitsample and it sounds great in
solo, right?
And then once you layer it withthe masking of the other
instruments it'll be perceiveddifferently.

(36:08):
So try to turn it up and.
A little bit boost what youdon't hear in context and see
how it comes out of the mix.
If it's still not quite right,then you can use other tools
like transient enhance cells.
I like the Buzz Digital labstransgress in particular because
it's a multi-band transientenhancer.
So if you have a trailer herethat's almost perfect, but it's
still a bit flabby, you can justcannot create a kick within the

(36:31):
hit.
So you can use the highs as adetection for.
Low expansion.
So say for example, you have theclick of that kick, you're going
to use this as an internal sidechain trigger, which means that
the the transient designer willlisten to this high end in order
to trigger its expansion.
So it's process.
And the process itself is goingto be like a low kind of
expansion that offer 150milliseconds or a hundred

(36:52):
milliseconds like between 50 anda hundred.
So you sort of recreate a bit ofa kick, a stator kick.
In the sub based on the high.
So you get an accurate,predictable sort of trigger with
the high, and you kind oftrigger that low expansion.
So that's a way to kind of addmore punch to a head that's
almost perfect, but too flay,too flat.

(37:12):
Now if that sample is way offand it's just kind of missing
that range to begin with, thereis nothing to boost there, then
you need another sample toreally make it work.
But if it's close, you know, Igenerally would just try to
fiddle with it.

Rich (37:23):
Like that.
Okay.
My question to you is you, didyou mention, you mentioned the
transient enhances.
Yeah.
Would a multi-brand compressordo the same thing?

Joël (37:33):
Depending on the multi-brand compressor, yeah.
You need one that's able to doexpansion and that's able to do
site chain as well.
So actually many do that.
And then typically, yeah.
I mean technically it could bethe same thing because a
transient designer is a sort ofcompressor anyway.
In a way it's a compressor.
They use different ways todetect the signal.

(37:54):
Like I know for example that thenew AL audio punctuate is a
pretty different process becauseit's basis detection, not just
on threshold, but on likevarious parametal, you know,
it's a bit smarter, but youcould achieve that I think with
pro B.
Actually I did this with Prime Bmany times which is a multiple
compressor.
So yes, you can, depending onthe plugin, all you want is like
low expansion, right?

(38:16):
That's the way to add punch.
But yeah, don't jump.
I would say don't jump toplugins if the sample is really
not good enough.
It's, you need to really be surethat, okay, this is going to
work.
I have the content there in thebase.
It's just not quite fat enough,but it's there, you know.

Rich (38:33):
This guys in the audience and girls in the audience.
This is absolute gold dust.
I hope you completely appreciatewhat Joel is giving away for
free here.
This is, there is, this isone-to-one lesson right here.
You know, it's useful, but thisis so useful because you don't
get taught this stuff.

(38:53):
Unless you of course buy yourcourse, you know?

Joël (38:56):
Oh, you can just, I mean, I, you know, I revealed some of
this stuff in my YouTube videosit's not it's not like mega
secrets, you know?

Rich (39:04):
No, but it's not, but you have to look for it, and you
have to know it to look for it.
Yeah.
You know, you have to be toldyour hit's flabby, you know, for
you then to go, well, how do Ifix my flabby hit, you know?
Yeah,

Joël (39:17):
exactly.
Yeah I don't really believe inhiding things in, because you
know, that's what you just said.
You can know the techniques.
You need to know what to correctfirst.
So you are never gonna replaceyour mixing engineer because he
knows what to what to listenfor.
You know, he knows what to tellyou.
Okay, your hit here is flay.

(39:37):
Cause you might not even realizeit's flabby.
And that just takes years.
So you can have all theknowledge and all the courses in
the world if you don't take thetime to really.
Study and, you know, practicethis stuff and just train your
ears for a while.
You won't be able to recognizethese things and you might have
all the theory knowledge in theworld.
You won't be able to get goodmixes.
So I would say courses canreally help you get that quicker

(39:59):
because you can learn the theoryand the relevant content faster.
You don't have to do YouTubeingas much left and right, that's
the value, but then you have toput in the walk and spend the
time.
Otherwise it's just pointless.
So it's like the two things needto be combined to really kind of
maximize your progress.
Okay,

Rich (40:16):
so I've got one last question about, I, I've gotta
jump in cuz I, I know one of themost common issues the trading
composers have, and I think Iknow what you're gonna say to
this cause you, I think you'vekind of given it away.
But a lot of people say wouldsay to me, how do I fix my muddy
mix?
Okay.
I know.
There's a ton of answers tothat.

Joël (40:36):
Okay.
How do you fix somebody mix?
Okay.
So you need to kind of processin, you need to think about this
in order, eh, with steps.
Okay?
So why is your mix mad?
And so go back to the beginning.
Is it the orchestration?
So did you stack too manypointless layers?
Do you have a massive wall ofdrums that's just masking

(40:56):
everything?
So first of all, orchestrationand figure out if there is
useless stuff or if everythingis fine.
I mean, of course it takes awhile to really recognize that,
but you know, that's the firststep.
Then it's about balance.
Okay, so all my voice isbalanced properly.
So if, even if you have aperfect orchestration, if your
wall of drums is just way tooloud and covering all the

(41:18):
harmony the track is going tofeel very in harmonic and very
noisy because you have allthese.
This noisy content of the drumsmasking all the harmony.
So you're gonna feel like itjust doesn't sound as glorious.
So if your bra is properlyorchestrated, but you have a
wall of drums masking it, it'skind of pointless, right?
So balance is a massiveimportant step.

(41:38):
So once you started out balance,then you can go more in detail.
Okay.
So everything is good.
The balance is good, the arch isgood, but my mix is still muddy.
So then it's probably eq,internal balance.
So after balance you have what Icall tunnel balance.
And that's really the more EQaspect, you know, of the mixing
process.
Maybe my wall of drums is greatand appropriate, but it's just

(41:59):
the simple is so rumbly at 200or 300 hearts that you have a
massive buildup in this range.
It's masking everything.
So then maybe you catch six DVin the mid, in the drums, and
suddenly the harmony becomescleverer because that, that mid
range is now way more dominatedby actual calls and notes and
then just like rumbly content.
So suddenly it transforms thewhole mix, right?

(42:19):
But you can't just jump to thisstep before considering the
produce ones.
You have to kind of think aboutthis in order and of course
after, with experience you don'thave to be so methodical cuz you
will just know and not makemistakes.
But I think it's important,especially at the beginning to,
to kind of ask yourself thesequestions in order.
And if you did tunnel balance,like if you did composition
balance, internal balanceproperly, you already have 80%

(42:42):
of your mix and the rest is justrev up to make sure laborists
sound a bit bigger andcompression to shape the things
a bit differently and.
And then saturation is wet.
It's like the last 3% that canbe a negative 3% if you do it
badly.
So it's not that important.
So you really have to focusinternal balance.
It's super important andbalance, you know.
The really the main ways to fixyour madix.

(43:04):
But now the good didn't reallyanswer because there is not one
way to fix your madix.
It's straight ways.
So you need to know where to cutas well, where to cut to achieve
that gut tunnel balance and nothave a me.
Okay, so how do you know whereto cut?
You see how other people do it.
Other people who make mixes youlike, you see how they do it.
You analyze some of the mixes.

(43:25):
It could be like OSTs frommovies like How to Train your
Dragon.
Great mix.
How to Train Your Dragon too.
Great mixes by Sean Murphy.
So just analyze things you like,figure out, okay, how do these
strings sound?
How is the issue of thesestrings compared to my track?
You know, where do I need to cutmy strings to get to turmoil
like this?
And then you will start torealize things and after a

(43:46):
while, you know, you will beable to take your own decisions
for your tracks and get goodresults.
So it's a lot of practice andanalyzing and training your air
for a while.

Rich (43:57):
Yeah.
It's the same advice for gettingbetter at writing.
Really.
Yeah.
I

Joël (44:01):
guess that's

Rich (44:01):
true.
Well, yeah.
You know, practice listening,practicing, comparing, and just,
you know, especially when you'retalking about the balance, you
are thinking about the balanceof your parts, you know, the,
yeah.
The, you know, I try andsimplify everything to four
parts if I can when I'm teachingstuff.
Drums included.
You think about the drums inessentially four groups, you

(44:24):
know?
So that they're cov they're notgonna cover each other, and you
will then write a balanced part.
But yeah.
No, it's great.
And so ends the masterclass.
I do wanna touch on this now asyou've basically been teaching
us for the last sort of 20minutes.
Let's talk about your course.
What's the course called?
Where can people get hold of it?
You know, Yeah.

Joël (44:44):
So the course is called Mixing Cinematic Music.
It's a master the score, so Mcmcm.
And it's a platform that has abunch of courses about orchestra
music.
So we have a mixing course, mycourse, and there's plenty of
other courses about you know,composition and stuff like that.
But In this course, I try toreally give people the tools to
really be able to make any kindof orchestral mix.

(45:05):
So music but also more likescoring stuff, even live
orchestra, you know, so it'sreally kind of a big all in one
package to learn how to tackleany kind of orchestral mixing.
So the way I split it is insections.
So I first, I have a sectionwhich is more of an introductory
theoretical section.
So you're gonna have a bunch ofvideos, I think around 20 to 30,

(45:27):
something like that, which areexploring different aspects of
mixing.
So some of the stuff I talkedabout, which is balance, total
balance you know, compression,mastering all these little
topics.
So this is really kind of togive you the theory knowledge in
order to be able to tackle reallife situations in a way.
Then the other sections there ishow to EQ section, which also

(45:48):
helped with tunnel balance.
So tunnel balance is soimportant that I decided to
create an extra section calledHow to eq, which is a bit of the
instrument.
Of how I would approach certainissues.
For example, violin you know,with common spots where these
instruments could beed.
So now of course it's not alwaysthe same cloth for every
library, but you have somecommon sort of pain points by

(46:10):
instrument.
So I like to elaborate on thatbecause I think this is the kind
of thing that.
People at first will try toemulate without really hearing
the problem.
But after a while, they will,you know, it'll help because
they will kind of remember thespots and then they will pay
attention to these spots whenmixing their own instruments and
they will be able to tweak youbetter.
So yeah, that's this section.
But after all of this, I wouldsay the most important section

(46:33):
is the mix, the constructionsection.
It really kind of putseverything in context because
you have real mixes, which Iexplore.
I go into every track of thesession and I show every process
so you can see every plugin thatI put and why I take these
decisions.
And of course I explain what Ido and why.
And if you watch this, make theconstructions with the
background of the introductoryvideos, I think you will really

(46:55):
understand why I'm doing thesethings.
And yeah, then you kind of.
Get more familiar with all ofthis stuff.
So I have 20 hours of content.
I would say.
I think it's, yeah, 17 or, yeah,around 17, 18 now, because I'm
gonna have a trailer musicupdate really soon.
Actually, at the time thispodcast is out, I think the
Trello update is out.

(47:15):
Yeah, just trying to exploreeverything and give people a
good a good overall knowledgeabout our customer mixing.
Yeah.

Rich (47:24):
Oops.
There we go.
What can us trader musiccomposers look forward to with
regard to the trader musicupdate in the course?

Joël (47:32):
Sure.
Basically, it's a few videosabout troll music specific
topics.
So there is a big video aboutmixing hits.
Yes, touching on the transientstuff.
You know, everything we talkedabout stacking hits, all that
stuff.
So I have a video on hits pulsespads.
What else?
I need to look, but there islike six that are going to be

(47:52):
like six or seven extra videos.
The the original course wasalready covering turtle music in
a way and sun design, you know,but this is really more focused
on, okay, if you're trying tomake a big fell track, how would
you approach mixing some ofthese elements to maximize the
bigness?
That's sort of the idea of thisupdate.

Rich (48:09):
Dude, this is awesome and very exciting for my audience as
I'm sure you can imagine.
Yeah.
That's awesome.
So I think you know, I don'twanna take any more of your
time.
You're an absolute superstar.
I would like to end with a quickfire round.
Okay.
So quick what A quick fireround.
So question, answer.
Oh yeah.
Nice and quick.
Okay.

(48:31):
Okay.
Right.
Okay.
I'll shift it a little bit asyou are, you know, predominantly
a mixing engineer, so we'regonna go plugin heavy.
Normally plug-ins is just one ofthe questions, but we're gonna
go plugin heavy here.
And I know you're gonna say,well, it depends on the
situation, but you're gonna haveto get, yeah, you don't need
tons of

Joël (48:45):
plug-ins, by the way.

Rich (48:47):
Well, I know.
But you know, let's start withthe first question.
Your go-to multi-band eq

Joël (48:55):
Ah, per q3.
I mean, for q3?

Rich (48:58):
Yeah, by far.
Nice.
See, I still don't have thatthat has come up in almost every
quickfire round.
Why?
I don't have that.
I'm gotta get that.
I'm gonna send an email.
Okay.
Go to convolution

Joël (49:10):
reverb.
I didn't choose convolutionreverb at all.
No.
Okay.
No.

Rich (49:14):
I'm sorry.
Well, in that case, go toalgorithmic.
Okay.

Joël (49:18):
Cinematic rooms.

Rich (49:20):
Nice.
Go to compressor.

Joël (49:24):
Oh okay.
This is, sorry it's not, I canjust say one thing because,
okay.
If you had to just get one, gettrack comp, dm, dmg, audio track
comp.
Cause it has every type ofconverser in it.
Yeah.
What was that?
D MG audio track comp.
DMD audio has every model ofcomper in it.
But I already have too manycompressors, so Yeah.

Rich (49:43):
So you are just basically saying a massive collection of
compressors, is that youranswer?

Joël (49:47):
Exactly.
Is And faith can compressor, I'mjust kidding.
Don't,

Rich (49:50):
yeah, that's it.
Yeah.
Okay.
Okay.
Well, okay.
Let's take it down a notch.
So let's just say let's go.
We mentioned multi-brandcompressors for trailer hits and
I've seen plenty of othertrading com trading music
composers and beat makers.
Use multi brand, multi-bankcompressors brilliantly for

(50:11):
drums.
So what would be, if you, ifsomeone said to you, you can
only choose one multi-brandcompressor, Joel, pro B, you
can't pro B.
Yeah.
Hey, good, we've got that one.
This is good.
Okay.
And last one, saturation.
Could be distortion, you know.

(50:32):
Or tape emulation, that wholeroom of warmth,

Joël (50:37):
It has to be decapitated still just because you have
several styles.
It's the best value.
I love decapitated.
No, it just sounds good,

Rich (50:44):
Okay.
And last, okay, last one.
This is actually the last one.
This is a setup though.
This is a setup.
Okay.
What about best room Widener?
Oh.

Joël (50:53):
By JD Factory.
Boom.
Easy

Rich (50:57):
one.
Awesome.
Yeah, easy one.
Joel, thank you so much forcoming on the show.

Joël (51:01):
Thanks for having me.

Rich (51:02):
I've had a, I've got a load of info myself out of this
and I, I know my audience isgonna absolutely love it.
You're an absolute legend.
Thanks dude.

Joël (51:09):
Thanks for having me.