Grace O' Connor : VP, Gender Wellness of L.A | Trans Affirming Therapy, Addiction, & Transformation - The Trans Narrative Podcast

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Well, hi everyone. Welcome back to the Trans
Narrative Podcast. I'm Caroline.
And today I'm here with Honey Rose.
Hi, Honey, welcome. Hi, thanks for having me.
It's good to have you. And today joining us as our
special guest, it's Grace O'Connor.
Hi, Grace, welcome. Hi, happy pride everybody.
Yes, happy pride or belated pride depending on this

(00:22):
releases. So before we get started, a
little bit about Grace. Grace is a licensed marriage and
family therapist specializing inworking with trans and non
binary communities. He is the Vice President of
Gender Wellness of Los Angeles and brings over 3 decades of
experience in a 12 step recoveryand LGBT car plus mental health

(00:42):
approach. After struggling with
internalized transphobia and growing up with cultural mirrors
for her identity, Grace transitions later in life and
has emerged more grounded, joyful and aligned than ever.
Her therapeutic approach integrates somatic work,
mindfulness, IFS, and decolonized anti oppressive
lenses that deeply affirm trans and non binary experiences.

(01:05):
Grace earned her Masters in Clinical Psychology from Antioch
College Los Angeles, trained at the Colors LGBTQI Plus Youth
Counseling Center, and is a proud member of CAMFT&W Pass.
Today. She uses her lived experience as
a trans woman and seasoned clinician to build deep bonds of
trust and healing with her clients.

(01:25):
Grace, thank you so much for being here.
Thank you so much for having me,I really appreciate it.
It's. Yeah, it's nice to have a story.

(01:53):
Welcome back to the Trees and Air to podcast.
We're here today with Grace O'Connor from Jitter Wildness of
Los Angeles. I'm Honey Rose.
Thank you so much for being withus today, Grace.
It's so lovely to be here. Thank you all for having me.
So let's just get started. Where did you grow up, Grace?
So I, I grew up on the South side of Chicago actually and,

(02:16):
and the like the furthest southwest of Chicago and still
being in the city you could live.
I'm 59, so I was born in 66. So, you know, growing up on the
South side of Chicago in the 60sand 70s, very much a working
class neighborhood, lots of cops, lots of firemen, very

(02:36):
Catholic. We you identified by the parish
you were in when we were kids. Not according to your
neighborhood. It was literally which church
were you affiliated with. So our parish was Saint Pete the
Venerable. And you know, my family was very
Catholic, Irish Catholic. My grandparents immigrated from

(02:57):
Ireland back in the 20s or 30s and moved to Chicago.
And so, yeah, very working classneighborhood.
Very much not. There was really no LGBT
representation in my community at all.
It was, it was very heteronormative.
It was very cisgender normative.If you one thing you really,

(03:21):
really, really wanted to avoid in my neighborhood was being
deemed LGBT in any way. Your life would be made a living
hell if you were. And so I had any.
Any transness, any queerness, I learned to hide at a very, very
early age. I was just trying to fit in as

(03:42):
best I could. And you know it that that it's a
strategy, it gives and it takes.So I was able to kind of muddle
through growing up on the South side, but I also had to hide
huge parts of myself and that. Created a lot of internal
conflict for me. Definitely, definitely.

(04:02):
I remember this times. Yeah.
For sure. I mean, I'm, I'm a few years
younger, I'm only 51, but definitely growing up in the 70s
and 80s like that, looking around and just going, OK, these
people are not safe in many ways.

(04:22):
I was living in a more rural area, but not far from Chicago
and in the Midwest. You were not being.
You were not going to be yourself.
Out of fear, mostly. I saw people who got labeled as
queer when I was a kid and it was a horrendous life.

(04:43):
It was the, the abuse, the bullying was relentless.
And you know, it's hard to talk about this stuff.
It's such a shame. All the trauma that exists in
our community is LGBTQ folks. It is, you know, some of the
stories that I hear from my clients who grew up in
communities and neighborhoods that were more abusive than
mine. It's hard to to listen to what

(05:05):
folks have to go through just tosurvive.
Oh, sure, sure. Yeah.
I mean, I have, I have my own stories and experiences, but
yeah, I, I remember the first time I moved to into a bigger
city and just being going, OK, this is what you're going to do
to LGBTQ people. Wow, that's kind of not good.

(05:30):
I think I'll hide even more. So how did, so how did your
early, how did those early strategies of of hiding shape
the way that you understand strength or safety specifically
at that time? Well, I think I learned some
really what we call maladaptive coping mechanisms at a really
young age. There were the internal ones

(05:50):
where I kind of developed this like OCD thing in my brain.
I would count numbers and my my brain wouldn't stop.
It was going 24 hours a day. I feel like I was just
suppressing so much emotion, sexuality, gender and my.
Brain kind of helped me cope. So there was lots of black and

(06:13):
white thinking, there was lots of perfectionism.
There was lots of people pleasing.
There was that aspect. And like I said, I would, I
would count numbers in my head and I couldn't stop it.
I would literally be sitting somewhere and my I would just be
counting over and over and over and over again.
And so that was kind of the internal mechanisms.
I think when I got older, when Ihit like 10:00 and 11:00, well

(06:35):
maybe 11 or 12, I started. I found cigarettes.
Just like you know, such a amazing coping mechanisms that
at that time I I smoked and I discovered alcohol at 13, so I
started drinking. You know, we would get a six
pack and split it between three of us and you know, get drunk on
2 cans of beer. And you know, something magical

(06:57):
happened for me when I had my first drink.
Like all everything dropped awayand it was like a magical
moment. I felt like myself.
People were commenting on Oh my God, like you're so funny,
you're so outgoing. Like This is why I've never seen
this side of you. So like alcohol became a very
much a a social. Lubricant for me and.

(07:18):
Just allowed me to just manifestmyself and so I I drank as much
as I possibly could probably discovered weed around that time
as well. Smoked a lot of lot of weed, a
lot of hash, you know, just likeevery day smoking, drinking.
I discovered harder drugs at 18 and so you know, there was like

(07:43):
the gender was always there and but I had it was something I.
Absolutely had to hide so. In private, I might be dressing
up, I might be trying on makeup or trying on women's clothes,
but that was very much in private.
In public, it was just like, I, if you would have looked at me
and go, oh, this, this kid has no problems, They're fine.

(08:04):
That was my thing. Like, I'm fine.
How are you? I'm fine.
You know, right? Yeah.
Yeah. What do you have my life like?
So we had, let's see, there weresix kids in my family.
Mom and dad both worked. My dad was worked in in, We
started in computers back in the60s really.

(08:27):
And so he worked. My dad worked a lot, 5 days a
week. And, you know, he'd usually get
home at 6:00 or 7:00 at night. And then my mom worked part time
as well. And she worked for a department
store for 25 years. And we had six kids.
So, you know, our, the ages were, we had basically 5 kids

(08:50):
and six years in my family. So my, I had two older sisters
and two older brothers who were twins.
And you know, it was, it was, itwas trying to figure out how to
navigate the world, how to navigate the family, how to
navigate, how to navigate the community, you know, So yeah, it

(09:15):
was, it was challenging. I'm not going to lie.
It was challenging. That was a lot.
So like when you were, when you were in the midst of that like
that numbing and escape, like were you consciously aware what
of what it was you were escapingor or was that not clear and
articulated yet to you? I think I knew that there was
some gender stuff going on. I mean, that was so obvious to

(09:37):
me. I didn't know what it was.
I really didn't. I, I just knew that I would
think about it constantly and I would dress up constantly.
I would try makeup constantly. I knew it was there, but I
didn't. I just didn't think it was
possible to be a trans person, you know, or to be A, to be a
woman for that matter. I remember I was probably like
11 or 12 years old and I discovered Carolyn Cassie.

(10:00):
Do you all know who Carolyn Cassie is?
Yes, I. Do.
I discovered her at like the ageof like 11 or 12.
And I remember I, I literally remember I was standing on a
side street and I was thinking because she had just gotten
married and she was at her wedding with her husband.
And they were, she was in her wedding dress and they were at

(10:20):
their reception and she was cutting a cake.
And I remember looking at that picture and it just struck with
me. And I remember walking down the
street one day and the thought came to me, I'll never have
that. I'll never have that.
I knew that was exactly what I wanted.
I wanted to be her. I wanted to be in my wedding
dress. I wanted to be at my own

(10:41):
wedding, getting married. And I just remember thinking in
my head, I'll never have that. It just seemed so impossible to
me as as a person from the Southside of Chicago and a very
heteronormative cisgender family.
Like I said, Catholicism was so prevalent in our in our
community. And I mean, I remember being in

(11:02):
3rd grade and the nuns at my school because I did 12 years of
Catholic school. So I remember them saying like,
if you Oh yeah, if, if you yeah,oh, awful, awful, awful.
And if you even think a bad thought, you're you're going to
hell. I never, I will never forget

(11:22):
that. Being in yeah, being in 3rd
grade and the nuns saying if youeven have a bad thought, you're
going to hell. And I thought, well, I'm.
Screwed. I'm screwed.
I'm going to hell, there's no doubt.
Can you imagine an 8 year old feeling that way?
Just self loathing I can imagine.
Oh my God, yeah. I mean, just kind of the

(11:43):
cultural context was being different as bad.
Obviously being LGBTQ is bad. It was never talked about.
I always talk about like, if you're an LGBT person and your
story's not being told, I think I internalize like, well, then I
must. It's something to be ashamed of.
Then it's if they're not, if nobody's talking about it, if

(12:04):
there's no representation of it,then obviously my story is
something to be ashamed of and it's something that is not worth
telling. Sure.
So. I think that and, and in the bio
that we were all told at the beginning of this podcast, it

(12:27):
talks about cultural mirrors. And I remember being a kid in
the 80s and, you know, 70s and 80s and the cultural mirrors
that we did have, we were, we were the butt of jokes.
We were the dead body found in ariver on a murder movie or we

(12:52):
were sex workers. And.
And those were shameful things at that time.
Like there was no promotion of of that is being a legitimate
job. Well, that was a shameful thing,
especially growing 12 years in Catholic school.

(13:13):
Oh, honey. Yeah. 12.
Years. I want to hug you.
I came from a Pentecostal background, so I kind of get it.
I want to hug you. I mean, I hear some of my.
Clients religious stories, whether they were Mormon or
Baptist or Pentecostal or whatever.
Yeah, they can all be traumatizing, so I get it.

(13:36):
But so those cultural mirrors just made us like, feel like a
lot of shame. Like we, we, we know not that,
not that being a sex worker is bad, but in the 70s, in the 80s,
we were told those things were so bad.
We didn't want to be murdered. We didn't want to be made jokes

(13:59):
of. So we, how no, I'm not that
thing. I'm not going to be that thing.
So I have to muscle up. Yep, hide it.
Yeah, I've got to be the best man I can be.
Yeah, because I can't do that thing.
God, and I tried so hard. I tried so hard to be hetero and

(14:20):
sis, I, no one has ever made a greater effort.
I mean, I'm, I'm exaggerating, but Oh my God, did I try, I
dated and you know, I, I tried to fit in and I paid a lot of
penalties for that, but I tried,tried really hard.
Yeah, so did I. Yeah.
I get it. I feel like that moment, you

(14:40):
know, you standing there on the street holding that image of
that wedding and just like in your mind saying that like, I
can never do that. Yeah.
That's like, I can't imagine howthat like impacts a young
person's spirit. Like to know exactly like to, to
learn or yearn for who they are,but then feel like they'll never
be allowed to do that. Like how do you think that?

(15:00):
How do you think that really like, like looking back from a
clinical, how do you think that impacted you in that moment?
And what age were you at at thattime?
I was probably 11 or 12 tops. I might have been younger, 11-12
years old. So I was in 6th or 7th grade and
I, I looked back and I've alwayssuffered from depression.
I think that a thought like thatand like suppressing something

(15:21):
like that, that reality, I thinkI always suffered from
depression. So I think maybe one of the ways
in which I cope with my depression as well as my like
internalized transphobia and andshame and guilt was with
substances, with cigarettes, with coffee, with.
Drugs with alcohol. You name it.
I think I've always suffered from depression.

(15:43):
I I I finally got medicated in 1996 and then it changed a lot,
thank God, but I suffered from. Depression for a really, really
long time. So I think it was just kind of
an overall, it's something they call like like dysthymia.
It's a depression that lasts forlike longer than two years.
It's just like a chronic depression.

(16:03):
That was me. That's what I had.
And then mixing a lot. Of anxiety around that as well.
You know, at at some point though, like the knowing the
truth inside of you started to emerge like taking you back to
when or what helped, like what started bringing that that that
yearning for or that understanding of grace, like
when did that start to come to the surface?

(16:25):
I was, yeah, I was a late. I was a late come out person.
I I came out late. I, I had to get sober in 1993.
I got sober, clean and sober like I was.
I hit rock bottom in 1993 with drugs and alcohol.
I was 27 years old. Life was not working.
I was just work, drinking, usingdrugs every single day.

(16:48):
And then I got sober and I got really lucky and I went to a
treatment program and lived in like a sober living program for
a whole year and just got my life together.
And I think so at that time I became, I became very, very
aware that I was at least gay atthat.
I mean, like I was queer of somesome flavor of queer, but still

(17:13):
I didn't feel completely comfortable kind of confronting
it at that point. But I'll say that in 1999 is
when I came out as a gay man, quote UN quote.
That was the first time. So I was 33 years old and I came
out as gay and I but The thing is, I knew I was trans.
I didn't have a word for trans because transgender didn't exist

(17:36):
back then. It was transsexual.
That was the only word that was used or all the other
pejoratives that were used for trans people at that time.
So the best I could do at that time was come out as gay so I
could at least start kind of expressing certain aspects of my
personality that didn't fit in with the heteronormative view.

(17:56):
I could, you know, I could startdressing a little bit more, a
little bit more quote UN quote feminine.
I could my mannerism. I didn't have to be so careful
about my mannerisms. God forbid my head and went in
the wrong direction or I startedgetting too swishy, God forbid.
So right. I mean, seriously, it's like,
yeah, I so I was be able to start kind of expressing myself

(18:20):
a little bit more. So but when I did that fully
conscious that there's definitely a gender piece here.
So maybe if I'm gay, maybe I canstart expressing that a little
bit more. Maybe I can go out on weekends
or start going to gay clubs. And I mean, don't they have like
drag Queens at, at these clubs? And maybe I could dress up.

(18:40):
And so that was like my life forlike 16 years.
And I'm sure we can go more intodepth with that.
But I really didn't accept that I was going to have to start
transitioning until 2015. So that came.
Later for me. Yeah, I had one of those.
Yeah, quite a bit later, I have to say that I had one of those,

(19:03):
I don't know what you'd call it,an awakening in 2005, one day
when I was in my apartment and Ihad been suppressing my gender
identity, suppressing the fact that I might be transgender or
something more than like just a weekend crossdresser or an
occasional crossdresser at home.I, I had a moment where it's

(19:26):
like, Oh my dear God, I'm transgender.
I'm not just like an occasional crossdresser.
I had a moment where I was like,Oh my God, I'm transgender.
And, and I had kind of like a complete emotional and mental
breakdown and I had to like go into the shower and like run

(19:48):
cold water over me. Because I was shaking so hard
and. And, and I was like, OK, Grace,
well, if this is your story, honey, if you are transgender,
you better start getting some support and you better start
doing some work. Because I kind of knew where I
came from, family, community, the church, that it was going to

(20:10):
be a hard. Journey, I knew it.
And I was like, you better get some support.
So I started going to. Therapy right away and started
doing some really deep, deep inner work.
That's beautiful, it really is. I would say for 1010 years

(20:33):
between 2005 and 2015, I was in weekly therapy and I was dealing
with my depression, I was dealing with my anxiety.
I was dealing with so much internalized LGBTQ plus phobia.
I was like, I was doing a lot oflike cognitive behavioral
therapy because of all my black and white thinking, right?
And some DBT stuff. Gratitude lists.

(20:57):
And you know, working on my perfection in my black and white
thinking, right? I like, yeah, no, because I've
done that too. And this is really interesting.
This is interesting because you're brought up because in the
in your experience to some of the work that you do, accept
that because I did the same thing.
I did the gratitude list. I had the intention.

(21:17):
What role did did therapy play in helping you reframe all of
those years of hiding and suppressing yourself?
Well, it saved my life. And I will say that, you know,
when I went to treatment, they recommended that I get to
therapy right away. They were like, because here's
the thing, I had been, I had been sexually abused by a

(21:37):
Catholic priest back in 1978. Yes, that way.
That's part of my story. I was molested by a priest from
our from our parish in 1978 and 7th grade.
So that was hugely impactful forme and that was devastating for
me and that was a huge part of my story and so.

(22:01):
When I went to treatment and gotsober, I had never told a soul
that. I had never told a soul anyone.
I buried that abuse, you know, so deep that even I didn't want
to think about it. But when I got sober, I
couldn't. There was nothing to keep it
down anymore. I think the drugs and the
alcohol were helping to suppressall of that.
So when I got sober, there were no defenses anymore.

(22:23):
And I remember having a moment I've I've, I swear to God, my.
Life has had a lot of these moments, but.
I was sitting in a group and I was like, I hit a moment.
I'm like, Grace, if you don't deal with this abuse, you're
going to start drinking and using again.
And my drinking using. Life was so horrible and so
miserable that I would. Rather share about the abuse and

(22:44):
face that trauma then continue with what I was doing.
So I went immediately went into my counselor's office that day
and I was like crying and like Iwas in a state of hysteria.
I'm like, I was abused by a priest.
And that was the first time I'd ever shared it so.
I went to, I started going to therapy right away and that was

(23:05):
very helpful. I found an amazing therapist and
we would talk about the abuse and what happened and how it
affected me and, you know, strategies I was using to kind
of deal with it and just kind ofestablishing that wonderful,
lovely relational therapy with someone who got me and would
listen and offer compassion and support.

(23:25):
And it changed my life therapy. How do you think?
I'm just asking for clarity. Do you think that you
internalize your identity because you were you experienced

(23:53):
the abuse by the priest? You know, I think my gender in
that experience are completely unrelated because I was, I was
expressing gender variance from such a younger age than that.
I think that was more to do withbeing such a lonely and isolated

(24:13):
kid and not fitting in anywhere.I just feel like I didn't fit.
I felt like an outcast, an outsider in so many different
ways. I mean.
I, I, I completely, utterly had neglected myself.
And I mean, that was kind of evident in my presentation and
in the way I dressed and, you know, bathing and keep brushing
of teeth. Like, I just like, I ignored all

(24:35):
that stuff. So I just felt very much, I will
tell you, I felt very much like a feral kid.
That's what I felt like. And then one day I'm sitting in
class in 7th grade and this priest walks in and out of a
class of like 33 people. He waves at me.
I mean, I was like. No one had ever showed me that
kind of attention before. So for me, that was, you know,

(24:58):
that was the hook. And that's what got me now.
That's what got me hooked. But I think it it what it did, I
think it destroyed my sense of trust in other human beings more
so than my gender. It was a lack of like, trust
that I could be abused in that way that I could be.
That vulnerable and then be taken advantage of by someone

(25:20):
and I think there was a part of me.
That couldn't accept that someone could be that evil, that
someone could literally be that evil.
And I think it wasn't until later when I was finally able to
accept that. Yeah.
And this priest was a monster. I mean, he ended up going to
prison, and he molested hundredsand hundreds of kids, ruined

(25:41):
thousands of families. And he was moved from parish to
parish. So he got.
Yeah, he got to a lot of kids. So unfortunately.
OK, yeah. And I, I you were using used all
of the, the language that we know about victims of abuse, of
abuse. We are the children that are

(26:02):
isolated and don't fit in right.And I already.
Felt that way. So that was just like the topic.
That was a, you know. Yeah.
Yeah. So, so we're, so we're now, you
know, around in the years of like 2005 to 15, this is before
you begin to fully embrace and accept that you have to

(26:25):
transition. So, so take us into that space.
So you're in you're, you're in therapy, CBTDBT.
And you know, we're, we're in therapy.
We're we're, we're breaking downour, our trauma.
What began? So where are you in your career?
Like what is it that you're doing in your career wise?

(26:47):
So throughout the so when we're in 2005, where are we at?
What are we doing? So I had moved to LA.
I've gotten my bachelor. 'S degree in theater from
Columbia College, Chicago in 2001.
I graduated, so I immediately moved to LA to become an actor.
That was my that was what I was going to do, right?
So I was I was in Lai had a little.

(27:09):
So my story is I I ended up suing the Catholic Church in
winning and. So I got a yeah.
Oh yeah. I took them on and I won.
So that was really gratifying. The long story, if maybe I'll
tell you all another time, very long story around that.
But I was, so I was living in Lai, had a little bit of money
set aside. So I was pursuing acting and I

(27:32):
was producing short films and I was living with somebody who was
gay and such a lovely guy. And he had this amazing
therapist that he would tell me all about.
Once in a while my roommate would say to me.
You know Grace. Maybe therapy would be would be
something that would be good foryou.
And I just feel like, yeah, but I did therapy before.
I don't need therapy again. Like I've worked through all my

(27:53):
stuff, right? I don't have any internalized
LGBTQ phobia but so I but I wasn't.
In therapy from 2001 to 2005, soI finally listened to my friend
and. I, I found this amazing
therapist. He specialized in working with
gay men and he ran groups and hedid individual therapy.

(28:14):
He'd been in the field for like 30 years and, and I started to
develop an amazing relationship with him and he was just one of
the most amazing therapist. I'm, I'm so blessed in the
therapist I've had. I've, I've gotten so lucky.
He was so loving and kind and compassionate and wise.
And great listener and. So yeah, I had to do, you know,

(28:38):
I had to do a lot of grief work.I had a lot of grief, grief,
sadness, disappointment, hurt. That took a lot of working
through. So that was, that was my
journey. I mean I did for 8 1/2 years
from 20/5/2005 to 22,013 1/2 about I was in emotional help I

(28:59):
I don't know how I got. Through it, honestly, it was
just such profound grief and loss and hurt and disappointment
and I just kept showing up everyweek and eventually I was able
to work through it and get to the other side of it and you
know the. Thing was during all that time.
I wasn't really. You know, expressing myself as
Grace, Chad, every once in a while I would say to my

(29:21):
therapist, like, where's Grace in all this?
Like, I know I'm doing all this work, but like, where's Grace?
And. He would just.
He would. Just be like, I think you're
getting there, You know, just keep going.
Keep doing what you're doing. I think, I think you're getting
there. So then in 2015, then I was
finally able to actually start coming out as a trans woman.

(29:41):
Does that help? Does that answer your question?
No, that's very interesting. Did you, were you, did you in
the process between 2005 and 2015?
I'm curious because, because I've, because if so, were self
help at all a factor in some of this?
Yeah. Did you find yourself in the

(30:03):
process of trying to adhere to some of these self help
modalities, feeling pressure to adhere to a certain way of
living that didn't align so muchwith like authentic living, but
more so I guess you could say like this Western way of like
living? Did you find yourself getting to

(30:24):
the point where like that kind of some of those types of things
became not something that began to help you after a while?
Does that make sense? Yeah.
Totally. I, you know, I think I was lucky
in that I had 12 step, I had meetings to go to and I had
like. Quote UN Quote a spiritual.
Program, as it were, like some kind of relationship with a

(30:46):
power greater than myself, a higher power, the universe,
whatever you want to call it. So I had that that.
Thing of I was already open to like Buddhism.
I was open to, you know, Marianne Williamson and you
know, people like yes, Oh my God, she saved my life.
Like I I would listen to her tapes and over.
And over and over and over again.

(31:06):
She saved my life. Just, of course, in miracles
and. All of that.
Brown. Oh my God.
Brittany Brown yes, there were so many great people.
So many, you know, Pema Chandran, I mean people that
just saved my life. So I had that.
But I feel like my therapist wasreally great in that he was very
much a blank slate. I don't think he had an agenda
for me. I think he thought, I think his

(31:28):
approach was, I'm going to be a vessel for you to bring in
whoever you are every week and we're just going to discover who
we are, who you are. But me just being here, actively
listening, offering feedback andeffective once in a while, maybe
sharing some of his experience, but it was very much about my
journey. And I think that's kind of how I

(31:49):
try to practice as therapist as well.
I think I've, I've for the longest time, I think I've been
very open to all different kindsof, I mean, meditation.
I've been meditating for 20 years.
I think 1st 1015 years there was.
Just a lot of. Prayer and you're right.
I mean, I think, you know, I didthe whole when I got sober, I

(32:09):
did the whole like formal prayerthing and I think I did a lot of
praying and that, but I think ata certain point it kind of.
Switched to more of like meditation, getting in touch
with myself, grounding myself and my body.
What am I feeling? And so, yeah, I think.
I I think I've been always and I.
Continue to be open and like expanding my meditation

(32:30):
practice, reading literature that's that's spiritual in
nature. Because I do think it's, it's
emotional, it's physical, it's mental and it's spiritual.
I think it's a whole a whole approach.
I think I started to my thing, Istarted to kind of deconstruct
internalized structures of racism, homophobia, when I moved

(32:52):
into a sober living environment with people from all different
walks of life, people of color, black folks, people that weren't
in the same socioeconomic strataas myself.
That I grew. Up on the South.
Side of Chicago, which was just such a white neighborhood, there
were barely anyone that was Hispanic.

(33:12):
Black folks lived in one sectionof Chicago, white folks lived in
another. So I very much had that.
Kind of like. Structural racial oppression
internalized and, you know, feltvery comfortable around white
people and, you know, didn't know a lot about, you know, the,
the movement of, of, you know, the BIPOC communities.

(33:33):
And I had really no exposure to,to literature that was out there
about the, you know, the Black experience or the Asian
experience or the Hispanic experience.
So I think when I got sober and I was, I moved into a sober
living environment. I had to get confronted with
like a lot of my own distorted thinking around who I thought I

(33:55):
was, the place that I thought that I kind of occupied in the
world. And you know, I'm, I'm kind of
embarrassed to say this, but I remember there was a time back
in the early 90s and I was at work one day and it was black
history. Month and I I.
Like I said, I'm embarrassed to say this, but you know, as a
white person having to have to become aware of their privilege,

(34:18):
you know, I had to get confronted on it a few times.
And I remember saying one time, like, why is there a Black
History Month? Like, why is where's white
History Month? I'm sure you all have heard
that. Heard that.
Story you know, from other whitepeople you know.
And I remember the person who was a black person said to me,
that's the other 11. And I went, Oh yeah, that's

(34:39):
right. I, I never thought of it that
way, you know, So I, I got, I got my.
Privilege busted a few times too, and it kind of forced me to
start thinking outside of myselfand start thinking outside of my
own, my own racialized. Views of of the world.
So, OK, so now we're coming up to when we when we're like when

(35:01):
Grace begins to make an appearance around 2015.
Now, had at this point, had you already gone into clinical work
with therapy or did that come after?
No, that came later. Well, actually I take that back
it. Didn't come later.
Forgive. Me I, you know, in 2015.
I feel like I hit a wall and even though I was out, I was, I

(35:23):
was, I was a gay person. I was sober.
I'd done. Therapy.
I was in 12 step. I lived in Lai, you know, I was,
I was kind of working in, in thebusiness as it were.
I was working in television production, you know, I was
doing OK, but internally I was just like, I still something, it
still wasn't working. I don't know, there was

(35:44):
something missing. There was, there was still,
there was a huge part of me thatI was still suppressing and I
knew it. And while I was doing OK in my
life, I wasn't. Really.
Flourishing, you know, I would look at other people and I would
see they were they were flourishing, they were self
actualizing, you know, and I. I felt like I was still

(36:05):
struggling. Emotionally, financially.
And so when 2015 came, I, you know, I had another realization.
I was like, Oh my God, I'm like,I'm under being here, like I'm a
trans woman and I'm just, I'm sounder being, you know, I'm
under, under living here. I'm, I'm not allowing myself the

(36:28):
freedom to just be me. And I and I knew why I was doing
it. I had so much internalized
transphobia. And you know, I think the
thought of. Coming out as a trans person
even in 2015. Was very daunting.
There still wasn't a lot of trans representation at that
time. Very, very minimal amount of
trans representation. And Caitlyn Jenner, I think

(36:50):
started coming out around that time.
That may have been kind of a tipping point, but I, I think I,
at that point I was like, I, I need to start dealing with my
trans identity. So I found a trans therapist and
I started working with her And when I acknowledged, admitted

(37:14):
and started kind of doing the work around being trans, that
became like rocket fuel for me. I, I don't know how to describe
it, but there's something involved in like the integration
process when you integrate, likeyour gender, sexual orientation,
all those different things. Like everything started to make
sense to me when I allowed my transgender identity and felt

(37:37):
like a switch went off and I waslike, why am I working in
television production? Why?
I mean, why don't I, why don't Ido some career that I actually
have experience in that I actually know something about?
And that's when becoming a therapist.
Came to me. I was like, Grace, you've been
in therapy for 20 years. Like, why don't you become a

(38:00):
therapist? And I had somebody at that time
who took. Me to an open house at Antioch
University. And.
They were showing a short. Film on on an Intersex woman and
I. Fell in love with that.
In university and I shortly thereafter, I started writing my
admission letter and started applying to grad school and I
started doing my work and, and therapy and started coming out

(38:24):
and, and you know, one of the things that I did which I
wouldn't recommend is, you know,going to grad school and coming
out as trans at the same. Time.
It was. It was so hard.
And another. Instance of I don't know how I
survived it. I don't know how I survived
because it was so dark. I was rejected a lot by family.

(38:48):
I was rejected by, I mean my fans, my friends rather, and my
12 step community. I mean, they were all wonderful,
but it was, it was a hard adjustment I think for my family
and you know, they didn't handleit very well in the beginning.
So yeah, it was hard. So there came a moment of

(39:11):
alignment, you know, embracing your truth clarified your
purpose. Yeah.
That led not only the US like therapist as a profession, but
like therapy that centers on thetrans experience.
And so that's so now we're in the midst of like we're now in
the late 2000 TENS. Is that where we're at?

(39:32):
Yeah, probably I I I went to Graduate School from 2015 to 20.
17 so it was at that time that Iwas coming out and I was like,
I'm going to be I'm working withthis community.
I mean, there was no doubt in mymind I wanted to work with the
trans community. I I was fortunate in that after
my first year of grad school I was able to start working in a a

(39:54):
mental health facility called the Colors LGBTQ Youth
Counseling Center which focused primarily on trans and non
binary and LGBT youth under the age of 25 S Like my full
caseload. And they would, they would
always send me the trans kids. I mean, I would always get the
trans and non binary kids to work with because I was one of
the few non gender diverse folkson staff.

(40:15):
So I got a lot of. Experience in those early days
working with trans and non binary people and their families
and. So yeah, that was right away I
started. Working with this.
Community and I knew I knew it was a good fit for me because I,
I had my clinical experience, but then I had my lived
experience as well. And I think prior to that, I

(40:35):
don't know if there were a lot of trans and non binary
therapists at that time. I think that it's my opinion
that, you know, cisgender women,queer, straight, really kind of
carried the carried the weight for therapy for decades, for a
really, really, really long time.
And there weren't a lot of transand non binary people that were

(40:57):
doing this work. So I think it was really great
for some of my clients knowing that they didn't have to see a
trans therapist, but it would benice if they could see.
One if they really wanted one. Some people, really.
Want someone who has that lived?Experience, it's really
important to them. So that was, that was I was, it

(41:19):
was great that I was able to be a person for, for those people.
So Take Me Out how that was in your understanding of like this,
this, this, this, you know, different kind of mental health.
Did you were you able to begin understanding a different way to
approach mental health? And how was that in your in your
education? You know, I think that, you

(41:40):
know, there's this parallel processing that happens, right?
I'm doing my. Work while the clients doing
their work, sometimes the work matches up.
Sometimes they may be in a placewhere I'm currently at kind of
working through some internalized transphobia or
dealing with depression or dealing with anxiety or dealing
with, you know, kind of culturalforces at work.

(42:00):
And I think it's worse now than it was in 2015 for trans people
when it comes to like social milieu that we all swim in right
now. But I think that I had no idea
the. Privilege that I had as a
cisgender man, first of all, being, you know, assigned male
at birth. And I don't think I had any

(42:21):
awareness of my own sense of privilege.
And then when I started to transition, just becoming aware
of being in the world as a woman, you know, And what?
That means, and that's different.
And my safety is not the same asa woman, as is as a man.
And that's that's something thatI had to learn, you know, and I,
I think that I had so much privilege.
I still do, to be honest, like as a white trans woman.

(42:44):
Yeah, I'm dealing with that oppression.
Yeah. I mean, I'm used to I I have
privileges. White trans woman.
I mean, that's, that's a fact. Yes, my marginalization is that
I'm trans and that's hard and I've got to struggle with that.
But you know, I have clients that are dealing with multiple.
Marginalizations with minority stress all the time.
So I've got to be, I've got to be aware of that and I've got to

(43:05):
bring that into the room and I've got to let the client know
that it's OK to talk about that.I've got to make sure they know
that this is a safe space right when they walk in.
I want them to be aware like this is a place where this, this
can all be on the table. I want to be affirming, which
means that I've got I've always got to be doing my own work.
I cannot begin to stress like how much like my education has

(43:27):
got to continue so I can keep upwith my clients.
God forbid. I don't want anybody to walk
into my office and present something that I haven't tried
at least to expose myself in some way so I can be there and I
can be affirming, you know, maybe later I can do more
research and, you know, figure out more things.
I'm presented with things. Sometimes I'm like, I need to do

(43:47):
more work on that. I need to do more research on
that. I need to learn more about that
concept. Or that or that idea.
But yeah, I think, I think it's a continuing, it's a continuing
process. And I think, you know, with my
organization, the Gender Wellness of LA, we're very, very
committed to social justice. We're very committed to
diversity. You know, we, we have a very

(44:09):
diverse staff. We're going to continue to make
our staff more diverse. You know, we try to be aware of,
of minority stress and, and, andactually try to be activists
around it. Recovery, LA.
Well, yeah, so I, I, I will tellyou that my.
Training consisted of working atthe caller's LGBTQ Youth

(44:33):
Counseling Center and Antioch University.
That's where I did my training. But in 2017, when I finished
school, I had to get, I had to get a job like I didn't have the
luxury of, of not working And, and I had student loans I had to
pay off and I, I didn't have health insurance.
I mean, you know, I. I I had medical for a for a.
Bunch of years, but. I needed to get a job, so an

(44:56):
opportunity. To present it itself.
Start working at treatment Centers for mental health and
addiction. I had the.
I had. My own mental health experience,
I had my own addiction experience.
So I was like, why don't I put that to work?
So I went to work in what's called dual diagnosis and we
worked with clients that were struggling with mental health
and also struggling with addiction.

(45:16):
And I became a, a therapist and I ran groups for four years and
I had a caseload, a full caseload of, of clients in, in
addiction treatment, mental health treatment.
I ran groups. I I became the kind of the the I
ran the LGBT program. At the last treatment program, I
worked out for two years and, you know, and while I was doing

(45:40):
all of this, while I was doing the treatment program and I was
earning a salary, I had health insurance and it's, it's, but
it's tough work. It's really, really tough work.
But I was also building my my private practice at that time,
so I was doing both. So I would work at the treatment
center during the day and then in the evening.
I would start to see like basically just transgender and
non non binary clients in the evening through Gender Wellness

(46:03):
of LA because I had met Casey Weitzman who owned Gender
Wellness so. It took me a while, so I stayed
in dual diagnosis treatment for four years and then I ended up.
Leaving in 2022 and going full time into private practice and
I've been doing that ever since.OK.
OK. Does that track?
Does that make sense? Yes, and I think that it was

(46:23):
just so baffled by the similar names that when it came to I
asked a question, I was lost. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, of
course. Take me So in those early days,
you start seeing you know your, your, your, your you begin in
your practice. You know, you start practicing.
You're you're doing the dual practicing.

(46:43):
What was it like beginning to see trans clients, non binary
clients, not just as a therapistdoes somebody that walk that
path yourself. What did was there a feeling
that that that as you, you know,integrated fully?
You know, we're we're getting into 2002, 2022 now.

(47:04):
What is this? What's that feeling like?
What are you feeling in that moment you're talking to us?
I just I fit in this in this career.
It's like a it's like something clicked into place.
I it just the therapy, being trans, working with other trans
people, it's just a fit. It's such a wonderful.
Feeling that there's a fit therefor me.

(47:26):
Because I can bring my lived experience, I can also bring my
own, my own experience of being in therapy and then my clinical
training and all of that. I can bring it all together and
like being trans and being able to sit in the room with another
trans person and just at a gut level understand what's going on
with them. I may not.
Understand everything and everybody's story is going to be

(47:47):
different but. In general, I understand the
gender journey. And I know how to hold space for
that and I know how hard it can be.
I, I mean, I know my own coming out journey was hellacious.
It was so hard. I had to hold so much anxiety
for so long, you know, coming out and fear of being rejected
and, and all that. So I understood that, that

(48:09):
process and, you know, even today, my clients that are
coming out and who are expressing anxiety, I'm like, I
know exactly what you're talkingabout.
I'm right there with you. I get it.
So, so yeah, it's just, it's just a natural fit.
For me. So, so let's, so you, so you,
you said, so you said the wonderful word of today.

(48:29):
So we're here today. Now take us into what are, what
your clients are carrying into the office.
You know, what kind of emotional, spiritual and
physical burdens because and, and, and let's parallel that
with the fact that when you cameout, it was 2015.
So the world was on the cusp of,you know, the Supreme Court's
decision. The, the, the, the, we're

(48:49):
beginning to see media become more inclusive.
We're seeing Syrians people and orange is the new black, you
know, first Emmy Award of these things are beginning.
That's a that's a, that's a different world for you.
Yes. Last for 10 years.
Michael Knowles says, you know, he wants to eradicate
transgenderism from every aspectof life, private and public.

(49:10):
How is that impacting your experiences with your clients
today? It's.
I don't use this term lightly. It's brutal right now.
It's brutal. You know, I, I will share that
as, as a trans person myself being in this world and dealing
with all of the political blowback we're getting right
now. You know, I've got my own

(49:30):
challenges around it, but my clients are.
You know, they're struggling with depression, they're
struggling with anxiety. I think some are struggling with
like slowing down their trans process.
They're worried about losing their healthcare.
They're losing and they have a right to be afraid of that right
now. They are losing their.
Some are losing Children's Hospital.

(49:51):
Just announced this week, Children's Hospital of LA, which
is one of the oldest and most respected institutions in the
world, made the decision that they're going to close their
trans and non binary youth medical program in July of July
22nd. So in a month, 3000 kids and
families are going to be thrown off their healthcare.

(50:13):
And. We don't have any idea where
they're going to go for their for their transferring care, so.
It's, it's, it's a lot right now, but I, and I have to say
like I, it's kind of to go back a little bit.
I met Casey Weitzman, who's my, my boss at Gender Wellness of
LA. She's the president and founder
of Gender of Gender Wellness of Los Angeles, which is where I

(50:35):
work and I do my private practice.
She started this work in the 90sand there was nothing.
There was no there was one treatment program like one
doctor, one endocrinologist. There were, there were.
There were not a lot of. Resources at that time.
So she tells me about what her journeys been like sometimes,
about being in this field for 30years and watching the changes

(50:57):
and. You're right, 2015 felt like
kind of a tipping point. Caitlyn Jenner, you know, the
imperfect messenger that she is,at least gave some exposure to
the trans existence. So it kind of it it put us out
there. And I feel like through the
Obama years, we were we. Were making progress.
It felt like we were really, I felt like, you know, Obama and

(51:20):
Biden, they were hesitant at first, but seemed like they got
on board with trans identity and, and we felt like we had
some allies and just in the last, it just feels.
Like in the last what? Well, definitely since Trump got
elected, but it just feels like our community is under attack

(51:41):
right now. It just feels like every day
there's another thing of someonetrying to push down trans
identity, get rid of services, eliminate support.
So it's people are heavy right now.
They're heavy. Yeah, well, I mean, it feels
that way because we definitely are under attack.

(52:02):
Yeah. We are, and that's not going to
change in the foreseeable future.
Nope, it's not. And you know, it's weird.
It's gotten, yeah, it's gotten worse.
It's it's a shame. We wish just they would go, you
know, start in 2015 and just go up and up and up.

(52:23):
And, you know, and I also know as like somebody who studies
history and studies the LGBT movement is that, you know, it's
2 steps forward. One step back, 2 steps forward,
one step back that I do believe,you know, the the arc of justice
leans toward or what is it whatever you know, I do believe
over time that we're going to get.
Full rights as citizens, but. But right now we are in some

(52:45):
challenging times. Yes, yes, all marginal, all
marginalized communities are at risk right now.
And I don't want to negate any of those communities.
But yeah, right now we are at the forefront of who's being
targeted for sure. What can, if you could, tell us,

(53:11):
what do you think more? We wish more people understood
about the transgender community.Wow, that's a that's a great
question. We're such a small.
Part. Of the community we're like
we'll let maybe less than 1% or 1% of the population may as may

(53:32):
be trans or non binary. And they're treating us like
we're 50% of the population thatwere like we're invading the
country or something and that we're asking for more rights
than than we deserve or, you know, and, and I just wish
people understood that, you know, we.
Represent a very small. Part of the population.
But we deserve our rights just as much as anybody else does.

(53:55):
I'm not asking them to go beyondanyone that's not transgender,
to have to go beyond what any other U.S. citizen would would
want, which is respect and opportunity to make a living, an
opportunity to be in the world, to love, to have relationships,
to have systems of support, to be able to have access medical

(54:17):
care or mental health care if I need it.
And, you know, to be able to thrive.
And right now there's forces at work that want to deprive the
trans community of of having those so.
So, so we have rollbacks or so right now, specifically in your
region, we have Children's Hospital rolling back these,
these cares you say next week. So what, what are, what are,

(54:38):
what are you telling the, what are you telling clients?
What is, what are the next steps?
Are there community networks stepping in to respond?
Like, you know, because they're going to walk in, they're going
to say, So what am I going to do?
What are you, what are you allowed to tell us that you tell
them? Well, I think, you know, The
thing is Children's Hospital is on unless there's a lot of

(55:00):
pressure that because initially they were going to close, they
were going to stop doing affirming care for 19 years and
younger back in February. But there were so many protests,
people stepped up. They were protesting outside
the. Hospital.
That they actually ended up going back and doing doing the
doing the affirming care again. Now Trump continued with his

(55:21):
assaults and threatening to cut funding, threatening to throw
doctors in jail. So they've made this decision
again. We're hoping that with the right
amount of protest letters organizationally, we can have
them go back again. But I don't know if that's going
to happen. But in Lai can say that there's
still a lot of. Organizations that are offering

(55:43):
transforming care for adults forsure.
I mean, USC is great, UCLA is great, Cedars is great, Kaiser
is providing great care. The LA LGBT Center is providing
amazing care. St.
John's Wellness Center is providing great care.
And I think for you know, chanceof non binary youth, I think
UCLA is still doing great work. And so it's not going away.

(56:06):
And now where we're going to where those 3000 kids and
families are going to go after, if in fact Children's Hospital
does close right now, I don't know exactly.
Where they're going to go yet? I think we're all thinking about
like, where are these people going to be able to get their
affirming care? And so that's part of it.
It's like kind of offering the opportunities and the

(56:29):
availability that's still there.But you know, we're a resilient
community. We're going to figure this out.
I don't know exactly know what it's going to look like or how
it's going to resolve itself, but we are resilient people and
we're going to figure it out as a community.
I don't know what it's exactly. Going to look like yet, but we
will figure it out. You, you said there are a lot of
these other organizations out there, especially in the LA

(56:51):
area. Are they equipped to handle the
absorption of, you know, the clients that are that you're
seeing? I don't know.
I don't know. And this is just this and this,
just to be clear, this is Children's Hospital which deals
with I think it's 19 and younger.
So there is 3000 kids and families.
And right now I don't exactly know where they're going to go.

(57:12):
I don't know if the. Community is going to be able to
absorb them. I don't know if we're going to
have to go back to the old days of DIDIY and you're like, you're
going to have to get your hormones and you're affirming
care, you know, outside of the United States, and not everybody
is going to be able to do that. I don't know what role the
Internet. Might play in that, you know,
with accessing affirming care, Idon't know.

(57:35):
And that takes us down. That's a whole different.
That's a whole different episode.
It is all different episode. I know people that are actually
doing that already, so yes. Yep.
So what prevents, So what prevents you from experiencing
burnout, especially in this timeright now?
How do you, how do you maintain your own mental health?

(57:57):
Because as a therapist, you havea therapist, I'm sure.
I do. I do.
Some of us, I don't have a therapist right now because I
don't have access to it and I live in a small town and a bunch
of wool. And so it's.
So how do you how do you maintain your mental health,
especially in Trump's America? Oh gosh, I try to limit my

(58:19):
exposure. I don't limit it completely.
I want to be aware of what's going on in the world.
I want to know what's happening.But.
I've got to really be. Careful about my exposure into
social media. I think there's so much anti
trans rhetoric right now and if I scroll through Instagram or
Facebook, it is every post because, you know, I have people

(58:40):
in my network who are LGBT and trans and queer and so
everybody's got something to say.
So I have to very be very careful about my.
Exposure I don't I. Try not to have the apps on my
phone. I have to force myself to go on
my desktop. My God, remember.
Remember when we seen a iron on Facebook came out and how the

(59:01):
only way I could get on is I hadto get on the computer?
Yeah, remember, remember the olddesk area, the whole corner of
the room? They, they used to make desks
just for having your big old computer and your mouse pad and
your big monitor. Remember it was a whole ritual
just sitting down and being like, OK, I'm here, let's go and
see what's on. But now you can just pull it up
on your phone and it's like you get the entire world's news

(59:22):
within 5 minutes. Like I listen to somebody else
scrolling through TikTok and I'mlike, that's, that's just like,
I can't imagine. But then I hear I'm doing the
same thing and I'm like. I can't even have TikTok.
I can't I can't go near TikTok. That's even more addictive than
Instagram and Facebook for me. So you know, I I can't do the
TikTok thing. I won't go on.
I'll never go on XI just think Xis a cesspool.

(59:44):
You know, I will not even exposemyself to that.
So so I do I try to moderate my social media use.
I go to therapy. You know, I have, I have a
clinical supervisor who I go to to just kind of for support
around my. I'm on my.
Caseload we have an amazing teamat gender Wellness, so we have
supervision ourselves and we talk with, about cases with one

(01:00:07):
another. I, you know, I, I meditate, I,
I, I still do my 12 step, you know, that helps to just be
around other people and have that community.
I, I try to enjoy my days off. I try to take my days off and
try not to work on my days off and get my sleep and to try to
exercise. I don't do them perfectly, but I

(01:00:28):
try to exercise and eat and sleep and I try to spend time
just enjoying my life. I love the work that I do.
I'm so passionate about it, but I need to, I need to be able to.
Turn that off sometimes, becauseyou're right, I can let that
lead me into complete and utter burnout, and then I'm not going
to be of use to anybody. So what does what does this

(01:00:50):
allyship and clinicians like? What what?
What do you feel they must misunderstand about the
emotional toll of being trans right now?
You mean like clinicians that maybe aren't trans or non binary
or aren't LGBTQ? Well, yeah, I know it's well let
me think. I mean, I think our allies are

(01:01:12):
wonderful and amazing and thank God for them, but there may be
some that don't really. To understand the daily pressure
of being trans right now, of theamount of vitriol that's coming
our way right now and how hard it is and being afraid.

(01:01:33):
Every day of losing your healthcare, I have clients who
who talk regularly about moving out of the country like we are
in the. Process of getting their
documentation in line to move out of the country so.
It's, it's just, it's an assaulton our, on our, on our resources

(01:01:53):
right now. So I think, you know, unless
they're actively trying to like educate themselves on that, they
may not understand the toll thisthe Trump administration and,
and these different departments are having on on.
The daily basis on on our community and the people.
That yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure.

(01:02:14):
Yeah. I know people that have left and
are in other countries, have sought asylum, been granted
asylum, they're going through the process of getting
citizenship and forgoing their citizenship in this country.

(01:02:35):
So it is tough and to do something like that is a
difficult decision. So how do we, how do we build,
how do we build mental health cultures where trans and non
binary folks can thrive and not just survive?
And I know that's a daunting question considering that it's
hard to see past today and you know, the next four years.

(01:02:58):
But I think it's important to, you know, especially new unites
and we've talked about with selfhelp that like, you know, and I
don't like the word, but manifesting like this, like
envisioning a future, what does a mental health culture look
like? That includes us, helps us
thrive. And beyond that, give me give me

(01:03:19):
a vision of what your what you hope to see in the next 10
years. You know, I, I, I can kind of
talk about what I feel like our mission is in Los Angeles right
now. I don't.
And maybe that expands out to a,a greater audience.
I hope it does. But like, I think the answer is
community, community, community,whether that's community mental

(01:03:40):
health or whether that's events and, and, and that trans and non
binary people and their allies and families can engage in
groups, virtual or in person groups.
I think it's community mental health.
I think we're fortunate in LA, there's a lot of community
mental health like therapists that are working on sliding

(01:04:02):
scales that are able that so to make therapy more affordable, I
think groups can be a great way to make therapy and group
experiences a little bit more affordable.
I think we, I think we need to continue, we need to fight for
our rights to healthcare. I think that's huge.
Not being able to access your hormones or not being able to
access affirming surgeries can be absolutely devastating and

(01:04:27):
hugely affect our mental health.So for me, it's all about
building community, community, community.
I think that's where we're at. You know, like we tabled
Transpride yesterday and we justlike had the whole team there
and we passed out tons of swag. And you know, last week we did a
speed fronting event on the roofof the Lal GB T center.

(01:04:47):
Just a bunch of trans and non binary people getting to meet
each other, having some food, just creating events for us to
go and feel like our trans experience is a normal.
Experience for us. You know, getting together as a
community. I think that, you know,
community, community, community that is that's, that's, that's

(01:05:11):
not an option. That's medicine, you know, and
the power of coming together is,is an answer to isolation and
despair. And even further, in so many
indigenous cultures on this land, self actualization comes
first through community. Only through that can you become

(01:05:32):
a part of the world and becominga part of the world allows you
as you have done, and what we'vea lot of us have done is
integrate fully. So many of you know community
allows us to integrate and and like access to to Healthcare is
so vital. So vital.

(01:05:53):
Oh, it's it's so. I love that idea of like
emotional medicine. Community is emotional medicine.
Yep, I yeah, like any kind, anytime there's an LGBT center
in a community, I think that's agreat thing.
It's a great place to congregate.
It's a great place to to host events and to have a bulletin

(01:06:17):
board with things that are happening in the community.
And, and you know, I think the Internet has been really great
too to. Create community and build
support. I think so many of my clients
are on Reddit. It's just like Reddit is just
like, like, you know? Other.
People in the community, they just love it saves lives.
Right. Yes, definitely.
Yeah. So where can people follow you

(01:06:41):
or support Gender Wellness of Los Angeles?
So you can go to our website, whichisgenwell.org and we have a
website that has all of our clinicians on there.
And we have a podcast. It's called Over the Binary,
which we do sometimes is full time clinicians.
We can't really do it as often as we like, but we have a

(01:07:02):
podcast, we have blog posts. We you can go to follow us on
Instagram, follow us on Facebook, YouTube and Tik.
T.O.K, go to Gender Wellness LA and you can access all of our
socials. Our social media person,
Courtney, is an amazing human. They're always doing things like
every day we're posting new stuff so you can find us that

(01:07:26):
way and you can call us at our office at 818188551105.
Our office manager is Maria Stubbs.
She's amazing. If you call the office, you will
be talking to her. And, and don't hesitate to reach
out. We got a resource page that we
feel like if you go to our resource page, there are so many

(01:07:46):
resources there and we vetted them all.
They're all transforming from, you know, surgeons to hair
removal places to binders to, you know, affirming gyms.
So if you go to our resource page, you can find us on there.
And yeah, we're, we're, we're, we're so we are so passionate

(01:08:08):
about the work we have going forward.
We're we're hopeful, we're passionate.
We're not going anywhere. We're going to be here.
So if we can help in any way, don't hesitate.
To reach out to us, that's. Right.
That is so wonderful, Grace. It's wonderful.
I, I feel, you know, you've touched on you've, you know,

(01:08:31):
community, community, community.I can't get that out of my head.
That's again, community is medicine.
I don't know if you've heard if that's, if that's ever you know,
but what does that, what does that mean to you?
What community is medicine? Here this is I I will tell you
that when I came out there was aFriday night group at the trans
at the LEL GB T. Center on Friday nights from

(01:08:51):
8:00 to 9:30 in person and I would go every single Friday
night to that. Group and it was like 30 or 40
trans or non binary people, all of us at various stages of our
transition but every Friday night.
I was at that group. And throughout my transition,
and we would talk about trans and non binary identity and

(01:09:13):
issues relevant to our community.
And then we would go out to Denny's after it's all of us.
So I know we went to Denny's every Friday night and we went
as a community. So you got to go out together as
a group and feel safe that you're with people like you.
And so it's, it's a way to learnhow to socialize.

(01:09:33):
It's a way to learn how to be a a a gender diverse person in the
world and how to how to exist inthat.
Way. So for me, I would not have
gotten. Through my transition without
that Friday night. Group and I did it for three
straight. Years.
And it was a miracle to me. And now I tell all my clients
like find a group, find a group.I don't care if it's virtual or

(01:09:54):
in person or whatever, like findcommunity.
It's life. Changer.
When someone feels like they've got nothing to give to those
listening, perhaps that feel so overwhelmed with, with this
daunting reality that we're in and you know, this summer, as

(01:10:15):
we're recording later this summer has been.
So there's so many things happening and what do you feel?
What what would you like to say to those that are that that are
listening, that may feel like they've got nothing to give but
still want to show up just. Show up and listen.
Honestly, I tell my clients sometimes like if, if just going

(01:10:35):
on a Zoom, zoom meeting and not having your camera on and having
the audio off, just listening, being in a room full of other
people, maybe, maybe at some point you will start to kind of
develop an opportunity to share more to put yourself on camera
and to be seen. But to just show up initially

(01:10:57):
and just be there around other people like you.
I think that it's it's I think it's just makes such a huge
difference and kind of build that habit of just going, you
know, and yeah, you don't have to.
I think when I first started going, I didn't talk a lot, but
I just listened and I just kept showing up.
And eventually I started like socially transitioning and, you

(01:11:18):
know, I was asking people to call me Grace before I was
presenting as a female. That was so hard to do, you
know, but but I did. I kept coming back and.
So yeah, I I would say just you don't have to give anything.
Just show up and take for a while.
Take, take, take, take, take. Eventually you'll get to.
A place where? You can give.

(01:11:39):
You talked a lot about, you know, meditation and that being
something that really helped youfind grounding.
You know, if, if we can imagine in a moment, you know, beyond
the noise, beyond all of the rollbacks and the, and the, and
the anti trains rhetoric and thepropaganda, what does the future

(01:11:59):
look like? We're trans and non binary
people and not only just safe but celebrated and and more
importantly, what would that take of us for all of us to
build that world? Unfortunately, I think we have
to go through what we're going through right now to get to the
other side of that. Like there's no way out, but

(01:12:20):
through like we just right on right now.
Unfortunately, we have to go through it and we have to find
our character and we have to find our humanity.
And we need to continue to show up for one another and we need
to continue to build systems of support and social supports
wherever they are. We need to fight for our rights.

(01:12:41):
I think we're going to win I there's no doubt.
In my mind, we're going to win. But we are facing some serious
backlash right now. This is the push.
Back. You know, and I, I, I'm telling
you that the way I like to thinkabout it is if you imagine a
slingshot being pulled back right now, we're being pulled
back. We are being pulled back so far.

(01:13:01):
But I promise you there is goingto come a time where that
slingshot's going to let go. We are going to vault.
Forward. OK, well, I don't know if it's
when Trump gets out of office office or when, you know, people
finally realize that, you know, transferring care is actually
appropriate. You know, this is actually the
most, you know, it's the most prescient solution there is, is

(01:13:25):
to like allow people the opportunity to transition that
they will realize that one day. And then I think we'll become
part of the, you know, the social fabric in a way that we
never have before. I think we'll be, you know,
we'll hopefully we'll be able tomaintain our transit non binary
and genderqueer identity, But I,I feel like we'll get folded

(01:13:45):
into the, the social fabric moreas time goes on.
But this is this is a challenging time.
I really, I really like how you said that the only way out is in
is through. And you know, Speaking of of the
only way out is through. I think that navigating these
these times requires a little dose of community.

(01:14:09):
And if you would like to participate in being a, part of
a little bit of a community here, please e-mail us at
transnarrativepodcast@gmail.com.That's
transnarrativepodcast@gmail.com.I would love to have you on the
show and celebrate your story and, and help the pendulum of

(01:14:30):
progress swing back to a place where we're all celebrated and,
and seen for who we are outside of these rigid structures that
that that seem to define us. Or rather just create a space
for where we're not welcome. We need, we, we, we, we want to.

(01:14:53):
It's so simple. I just want to change the world,
right? Yeah, that's not just change the
world I. I really want to take this
moment and just thank the audience for being here.
You know, you show up week afterweek, you tune in.
We may not have the biggest following in the world or, you
know, million streams, but to those that show up and listen
every week, I thank you for yourtime, for your, for your, for

(01:15:15):
your, for your willingness to give us, you know, your
attention. Thank you for being here and
showing up. And honey, honey Rose, thank you
so much for being here today. Thank you for taking time.
Again, thank you for having me. I always enjoy being here.
It was great being here with you, Grace.
Lovely meeting you, honey. Thank you for your great

(01:15:37):
questions. Honey, do you have any final
thoughts, comments, or questionsyou'd like to ask Grace before
we go? You know, I think that again, it
was great meeting you, Grace. I would like to know what does

(01:15:58):
from here on out. What does healing look like for
you? What does what, honey?
Healing. Oh, God, Healing.
What does it mean for me? Yeah.
I think it's a journey. That's been my experience.
It's a journey, I think. I, I, I wanted to be fixed

(01:16:21):
immediately. I wanted to be comfortable
immediately. I wanted to be because I felt
like if I'm comfortable, that means I'm safe.
And I think I've had to learn that if I'm uncomfortable.
I'm safe like if I and if I'm uncomfortable, I'm growing and
that it's OK to be uncomfortable.
It's OK to not have all the answers.
It's OK to be in Gray area. I'm safe regardless.

(01:16:46):
You know, and actually being in being in the darkness sometimes
and being in the unknown, that'sa real great place for growth.
And if I can learn to start to kind of hold myself in no
spaces. I'm going to.
I'm going to benefit from that. I love that it's OK to be in the
Gray area. Yeah, it's, it's OK.

(01:17:07):
It's that's just a, you know, a little touch of Gray.
Little touch of grey is OK, a little touch of grey is OK.
Yes, that's right. Touch of Grey.
I should have Alexa play Touch of Grey by Grateful Dead later.
I love that. Well, you know, I just again,
thank you, audience, for being here.
Thank you, honey, for being here.

(01:17:27):
And Grace, thank you for being here.
This has been such a pleasure. I'm so happy to have you on the
show. Thank you for having me everyone
and. Happy.
Pride to everyone. Yes.
Happy pride, wherever you are, in whatever month we happen to
be in still happy pride Grace. As we depart here today and and

(01:17:48):
carry out into our week, what isthe message that you'd like to
leave our audience? It's going to be OK.
It's going to be OK. Hang in there.
It is going to be OK. Times will change.
Things will get better. They always do.
I know it's hard. Right now, but if.
You just hang in there, find some support in whatever way you
can. Don't try not to be alone and it

(01:18:13):
is going to be OK. You are going to be OK.
You just hang in there and you're going to be OK and reach
out for help when you need it.

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Grace O' Connor : VP, Gender Wellness of L.A | Trans Affirming Therapy, Addiction, & Transformation

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Grace O' Connor : VP, Gender Wellness of L.A | Trans Affirming Therapy, Addiction, & Transformation