Kaz Phillips : Serve, Resist, & Rise |Military Exclusion, Transphobia in Uniform, & Systemic Erasure

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Well, hi, everyone. Welcome back to the Trans
Narrative Podcast. I'm Caroline, and today I'm here
with Kristen Brody. Hi, Kristen, How are you?
Good. Great to be with you.
Oh, it's so good to have you back.
Thanks for being here. And Oh my God, who's that over
there in the distance? Is she arising from hell?
It's Lucy Bazan. Oh my God, it's so good to have

(00:22):
you back. Oh, it's a pleasure as always.
Thank you for having me, Caroline.
My God, thank you for for letting me have you here.
Well, and joining us today is our very special guest.
It's Cass Phillips. Welcome.
It's so good to have you. Hello, I am so excited to be
here. Yeah, thank you for being here.
So before we get started a little bit about Kans has is a

(00:45):
daughter, sister, wife and proudtrans woman who lives her life.
She currently serves as a human intelligence professional in the
US Army where she gathers and analyzes critical information to
support national security efforts.
A graduate of Defense Language Institute in French, has has
also trained fellow HUMINT professionals and LED volunteer

(01:08):
initiatives across the country. Outside of her military service,
HAS advocates for trans rights, especially for those serving in
uniform, and creates content to educate and uplift others and
advocating similar journeys. Raised in a Christian family
split between rigid and more accepting views, has his path to
transition was shaped by faith, reflection and resilience.

(01:28):
She vagina transition at 21 and continues to speak about the
realities trans people face in the military today.
When she's off duty, she can be found crocheting or dancing to
just about every song she hears.Oh my God, Cass, thank you for
being here. Thank you, so awesome.

(01:50):
So. Beautiful.
Well, welcome back, lovely listeners.
As you know, I'm joined here with Caroline Cass and
Christian. Christian Cass, do you mind
just, you know, kind of kicking things off, telling us where you
know, a little bit about yourself, like where you come
from, a little bit background. OK so I was born 2002 a little

(02:14):
baby so I am. Gray hair just spouted from my
skull. So I am 22 years old, I'll be 23
this November. I was born in Cincinnati, OH
with a really big family, I think bigger than what you would

(02:37):
probably normally see for your average like low class black
family I had. We have family.
Yes. We'd be having some family.
You know what it is. Oh, and may we have your
pronouns please, for the audience?
I usually her pronouns. See her?
Is it OK if I call you sis everynow and then?

(02:57):
Every now and then. That is totally fine.
Yeah. And please continue.
I didn't mean to interrupt. Right.
So no, you're totally fine, right?
I was born in Cincinnati. That's where.
I was born. Oh, for real?
No, Yeah, right there in Loveland.
That's where I was born. You know Loveland.
Yes. Oh.
My God, get out of here. That is so crazy.

(03:18):
You have. Three people here from
Cincinnati. And I've like been to like
Finneytown too as well. I know.
What part did you grow up in? Something in the water just
makes trans women there. What part of Cincinnati did you
grow up in? I grew up in Roselawn, N closer

(03:38):
to Bond Hill. Oh my God.
But Oh my God, no way. That is so cool.
That's where my step daddy livedfor the rest of his time.
He went to Silverton, so he wentto Silverton High School, right
up there with long reading and right, Oh my God, Kings Island.
Sorry. Yes, it brings bad memories.

(03:58):
Definitely the. Blue ice cream.
Nothing compares to that blue ice.
Cream. Yeah, Sorry.
No, you're totally fine. What can I say about my family?
I definitely grew up in a largerfamily, I think because my mom
had my oldest sister when she was 16, then she had me when she
was 19. So I like grew up with like my

(04:21):
great, great grandparents for a lot of my childhood as well.
So that came along with the great aunts and the great uncles
and the the cousins who were twice my age.
So it just, I, I grew up around a lot of big family and me and
my husband, I keep on trying to push him for more than two kids,

(04:44):
which he wants to stay at later on down the line.
But right now he's sticking withtwo.
I think I could probably get maybe 4 if if I try hard.
You got to start high. You got to get, you got to fly
in high and be like, I want a football team, baby.
I want a football team. We're going to raise a football
team. And then you know, they're going
to be like, no, no, no, no, no. Let's go with half of that.

(05:05):
You'll be fine. Yeah.
So. Yeah.
So grew up in a big family, heavily Christian.
I mean, my grandpa, I call him Paw Paw.
He was the minister of music at my church.
So I was surrounded by music. My mom, she sung in the choir.

(05:26):
My sister, she plays the guitar.So just a very musical on my
mom's side of the family. Now my dad's side, however, was
in some way I guess more rigid in their faith even though them
being less involved in the church.

(05:48):
Like my mom, she is bisexual. She was a drag king.
She did so many different thingsthat I saw when I was like
growing up that I thought was soextraordinary before I even was
like come before I even told herI liked men.

(06:09):
But like, just seeing that from that side of the family who were
way more involved in the church was a little bit weird to me to
see some people on my dad's sidewho never went to church, never
really never even saw reading a Bible, always saying like little

(06:29):
things about my, I guess they would say quirkiness like.
Did they have like a cognitive dissonance or did they kind of
like reconcile it amongst themselves?
These quirkiness you have to make the air quotes for those
listeners out there who can't see me through radio waves.

(06:51):
Quirkiness with air quotes. So there are still people on
that side of my family, on my dad's side that still don't
recognize that I'm married to a man, still don't recognize that
I'm identifying as a woman and just say, oh, he's just he, you
know, is just the the funny, funny cousin or funny nephew or

(07:17):
something like that. You know, that I get a lot.
I mean, my grandpa, he still thinks I'm going to get with the
woman one day and have kids. And I'm like, Sir, you're.
Don't worry, Graham Graham, one day it'll happen or pop
whatever. Pop pop like good job pop pop.

(07:38):
It'll happen one day. Just not the way that he wants,
right? So there definitely is a lot of
cognitive dissonance on that side.
I do have like the younger ones,like my cousins, they're very
accepting my sister, my younger sister and my younger brother on

(07:59):
that side. They're really cool about it.
Like my sister, when I told her my new name, she was like, oh, I
love that name. And I'm glad to have a sister
now because besides me and my younger brother and my youngest
brother, those were the only siblings that she had because my

(08:20):
dad and my mom had different children.
So now it's me being the girl, then her, then my little
brother, and then my youngest brother, who is turning 3 this
year, if you can believe it or not.
Yeah, my dad gets around, Yeah. Wild.

(08:41):
That is three. Wow.
Yeah. It's going to be like, I don't
know how it works for your family, but for our family,
since it was such a huge age gaps because my grandmother had
like 12 kids, some of our cousins we would call uncles and
aunts, not knowing that they were cousins.
And we were like, oh, uncle. Oh, and they, you know, like

(09:02):
become an adult and they're like, yeah, they're not really
your uncle. They're like your cousin.
I don't, I don't know. Big, big black family.
It's fantastic. Yeah, so I guess I'll be his
sister, Auntie, I guess maybe so.
Who knows, but. No.

(09:24):
So as a as a fellow black person, anytime somebody calls
me auntie or unk, it makes me gooh, how old am I?
How old have I become? Oh.
Yeah, it just, it's sad. By the time that he's able to
drink, I will be in my 40s, so I'm like scared about that.

(09:45):
The person in their 40s, we needto we need to pump the brakes on
this OK, kibosh on that kibosh. However, it's enunciated No,
it's OK. We know we're.
Old you guys? Already.
Knock it off with the old stuff since since in five weeks I

(10:07):
turned 75, I'm I'm not having it.
You look great for your age. Good.
For a motherfucker. God damn girl.
Industrial strength hormones andMac cosmetics called black.
The the joys that a skin care routine can do like holy cow.
Moisturize bed. And estrogen.

(10:28):
Yeah, yes. Caz no, I'm sorry to derail.
Yeah, no. You're you're 22 and already
you've accomplished so much. How did you get from growing up
in this family to human intelligence?
Talk about that that how how you.
Get from there. OK, so throughout most of like

(10:53):
growing up, my mom, she served. My grandpa on my dad's side, he
served, but I never really thought I was going to.
It wasn't until my 11th grade year that I really made that
commitment to go on and serve. And that was because I knew I
wanted to do something where I could be helping people, whether

(11:14):
that be, you know, just a couplepeople in my community or if
that's on a larger scale, if I'mhelping multiple people.
And at the time, I was really like, I want to go into the FBI,
into the crimes against Childrenunit or the Civil Rights unit.
And I was like, what is a job that I could get that could

(11:36):
smoothly transition me from civilian life to working for
DoD? And the Army was like, I I can
do this and do something that's close to my job.
So that's where I got into the Army.
Now, when I was trying to find ajob to do, human intelligence is

(11:56):
something that really was, I guess, key to what I wanted to
do after the military, doing interrogations, debriefings,
having to handle top secret information, that kind of stuff.
I was, I guess you could say, wanting to provide that aid on

(12:20):
the battlefield and provide thataid to my brothers and sisters
in arms. But like not having to be on the
front lines. I could you, you bring the
people to me. I'll do what I need to do and
then I'll give you the information.
Were you enlisted or were you officer?
I am currently listed. I am a specialist.

(12:42):
Oh, oh shit. Girl.
I was as a squid previously. Navy made it up to E5.
Congratulations on where you've gotten.
Fantastic. Thank you.
But I got to throw some contemptand shade your way.
You know, the Army Navy thing. Yeah, at least you're not a
crayon eating marine, right? Yeah, I know, I know Now, if

(13:04):
y'all aren't, if y'all aren't military.
This is a camaraderie thing between us veterans and service
members. It is true that there is lots
and lots and lots of Marines whoeat crayons.
And it is true that there was lots and lots of gay sex in the
Navy for the Army. I I don't know what y'all did
other than like y'all just did weird shit.

(13:25):
Yeah. Anyways, sorry to no.
Because people probably don't know what human is.
Are you running spies? What are you interrogating
people? What are you doing?
OK, so human intelligence is part of the larger scale of
military intelligence as a whole.

(13:46):
You'll see things like signals intelligence and geography
intelligence all combining together to give what we call an
intelligence product to higher ups who then disseminate that
information to all across the military, to all across DoD.
So you'll see us sometimes interacting with the FBI, the

(14:09):
CIA, different agencies in orderto, you know, bring a product
for dissemination to people who will be on the front lines and
to save lives. So if there's we know if there's
enemies in specific territories,we have to get that information
to who's going to be going into there as soon as possible to

(14:31):
minimize casualties. So for human intelligence
specifically, we're working withinterrogations and debriefings
mainly 1, in order to talk to people who can provide that
information, who may be Epws or enemy prisoners of war, excuse

(14:51):
me, in order to find out specific information of who,
what, when, where and why. And the biggest thing why human
human intelligence is so important is because you know,
Signal can get you what they're saying and a Geo can get you
where they are. But that why is important.

(15:12):
You need to be knowing how theirmorale is, who are key figures
that you might not be able to get from looking at looking down
NGO or listening over comms. So our job is really important
by getting detailed information,especially when we're talking
about long form a war. So are you, are you actually

(15:37):
talking to people who are captured, or are you running
spies? So what we will be doing is I
can't really go into too much about it, but the gist of it is
enemy prisoners of war with go to something called Adiha, which

(15:57):
is a detainee holding center. And from there, we would do
interrogations and, you know, basic enemy prisoner of war
things that you a little bit of what you'll see in the movies,
but definitely not the whole thing.
Like we're not allowed to like water board or do anything like

(16:17):
that, that people think that just happens because, you know,
the Geneva Conventions exist. So we're not allowed to do any
of that. But we, we do talk to these
people a lot who are, you know, tired of, you know, the, the war
that they're fighting, which a lot of the times, especially

(16:38):
when we're talking about when wewere in Afghanistan, a lot of
them were tired of having to fight in that war.
So it was a lot. It was very easy to get
information out of people, especially when we're talking
about Aftershock of capture. Imagine that, Kristen.

(17:01):
Were you inside or you in the military as well?
I was not. I was a Pentagon correspondent
for almost a decade. So yeah.
And covered the Navy of the Atlantic Fleet from Norfolk for
a while. So, yeah.
But that was, that was more thana week or two ago, more than a

(17:24):
week or two ago. So things have undoubtedly
changed quite a quite a bit. I'd say especially with what's
coming down the pipeline, we've all seen what's.
That's where we've got to go because Kaz, Kaz, you're trans,
you're in the army. Have you been told that you're

(17:45):
out? What's?
Going on so, so the current situation with everything, which
that's I'm so glad I'm here today because a lot of people
aren't like knowing what is actually going on day-to-day and
they're not talking about on thenews really on the ground what

(18:05):
is actually happening day-to-day.
So on June 6th, that was the last day for every single trans
service member to notify their command that, hey, we are trans
and we would like to voluntary get out now after June 6th.
Now it's all in involuntary status.

(18:25):
So the difference between those are a huge difference really so.
Is it a return to like the don'task don't tell policy or people
going to be processed out if they're suddenly caught to be
trans? So, so that's the thing.
So they basically said, oh, you can get a waiver for staying in

(18:46):
if you meet certain prerequisites, But one of those
things is to never have a a diagnosis of gender dysphoria,
but to be trans in the military,to actually not to be trans, but
to go through the transition in the military, you have to have a
diagnosis of gender dysphoria. So it's very insidious in the

(19:07):
way that they say, oh, we're giving you this waiver that you
can apply for, but no one who isgetting kicked out will actually
get the waiver. Yeah, like a catch 22 of sorts.
It's like we can't get you on anything else.
We're making this silly bullshitup to get you.
And those of you who come out, it's basically a new

(19:29):
establishment of the bad old days for some of us who were
enduring Don't Ask, Don't tell. It just sounds like the same
silly bullshit with like a freshcoat of paint.
Right. Well, it's more than that
because on top of that, if you are under, if you are getting
any form of treatment, if you'regetting hormones, if you're
getting any kind of counseling that automatically under the

(19:49):
regulations as they stand is grounds for them to just throw
you out. And, and Kaz pointed out
something really important, thatthe distinction between those
who voluntarily separated and got good, good discharges,
regular discharge, honorable discharges, is very different
from being separated and gettinga discharge other than honorable

(20:11):
because that. Somebody who received.
Your VA benefits. So.
I received an OTH for clear stuff back in the Donuts on
Tellura and it took me like 14 years to get that shit settled
and solved. This is what we could be
implemented to current soldiers,sailors, marines, and all that
which you know serves in the service.

(20:33):
This could be your future. You could be held from your
rights for 14 years, right as you're saying.
Something else in there as well is we don't know if the people
who get out involuntary what actually will be done because
they've basically left it open by saying, Oh well, if you

(20:54):
voluntary, you'll get honorable discharge, you'll be able to
keep your bonuses. But when you involuntary, they
instead of saying concretely, they say you may lose these
things. You may get honorable discharge.
So they're putting in that may there to leave it open.

(21:17):
And I think they're doing that so they can force a lot of us
into that voluntary route. Because unfortunately I was
able, I had to go the voluntary route because I had gotten a
bonus that I wouldn't be able topay back, especially if I wanted
to after I'm out, keep all of mytransitioning stuff going,

(21:38):
right? I have people that I know who
were in the hospital sitting in waiting to get their surgery.
And they got told they couldn't do it after like he did in
February when he stopped it the first time.
So it's a he's, they're working on fear from us to act quickly.

(22:01):
So he could get most of us to dothe voluntary.
But I do know some people who are closer to the end of their
20 years who are saying I'm sticking it out and I can do
that. But unfortunately I couldn't
afford to. Yeah.
And I know a couple of people who are officers who have been
in for literally 1819 years who are very worried because they're

(22:23):
coming up on their 20 and they're going to lose
significantly as a result of this, whether they go voluntary
or not, right? One good friend just got
involuntary just out, just shy, just shy of of 20 years.
So right now I am currently on how they're calling it

(22:44):
administrative absence. So I am not allowed to interact
with people from my company or am I like battalion?
I have to basically do this whole out processing process on
my own, which is kind of difficult because you know, I've

(23:05):
never done it before. So I'm having to do it all by
myself. But it's very isolating and like
my team is missing, like me being there because I'm a very
integral part of the team, whichif anybody knows about human
intelligence or military intelligence in general, we're a

(23:26):
very small bunch. I've saw people who I met at the
beginning of my career so many times throughout in different
stages of my career because we're they're so little of us
and so little places. So when we're talking about
these people who like me, are trans in these spots, who one,

(23:49):
there's not many of us. Two, it takes hundreds of
thousands of dollars to train usto do these things.
Not only are our team members missing out on having friends,
you know, people who we call family, who I call family every
day, I mean, laugh with, they'realso missing people who they
need to be able to do these jobs.

(24:10):
They have people from like the highest form of jobs that you
can have in the military to the lowest, but they're all
necessary. And if we're talking about, oh,
we're going to kick them all outat the same time, that's going
to drastically affect the fighting force that we have and
the national security of our country.
That's probably, from my perspective, forgetting the

(24:31):
human element of it and the factthat it's just an absurd policy
to begin with. It's so self-destructive to this
country and to the national security interest of this
country. It's it's absurd.
We are taking people like you who are brilliantly trained,
really good at their jobs and saying we don't care, we're

(24:53):
going to work, we're just going to throw them out.
It's ridiculous. It's not like you weren't doing
the job really well the day before this policy was
announced. Right.
Combat pilots with missions, multiple missions officers in
the Judge Advocate General Corpswho have tried and won cases,

(25:16):
They're as competent today as they were the day before this
order. And all of them are getting the
same treatment. Ridiculous.
And, and you know, I, I can't imagine what it felt like when
you when you got the word. So the first time I heard about
it, I was like, OK, this is kindof expected.

(25:37):
But at the time when they did that, we were still unsure if it
was going to be a total ban or if they were just going to do
like last time when they said, OK, the people who are in
basically get grandfathered and everybody else just no new
accessions can be made. But they're kicking us all out.

(25:58):
And my whole thing is I don't have some of the things that I
need to have in order to do my job outside of here, outside of
the Army. So a lot of the job
opportunities that I could have have been halted in a lot of
ways. And I'm having to rethink my

(26:19):
entire life because I was thinking about doing 20 years in
the military. I wasn't thinking about getting
out, you know, in a couple of months, which is going to
happen. So I'm having 21 hurry up and
think about where I'm going to go to school to get my 4 year
college degree, How I'm going topay for living somewhere because

(26:44):
my husband is still in the military.
But I still need to be paying for bills that I have on my own,
like car note and my transition.And I still want to do things
like, you know, surgeries and stuff like that.
Then I'm like, I can see, I guess a lot of anxiety that I'm
having over the unknown. That is unnecessary anxiety that

(27:10):
has been put on me from the US government.
And that's not even just a single story from me.
That's every last one of us who didn't think we were giving that
getting out when the second timethat they pushed out information
because they had stopped it for a while, but they brought it

(27:30):
back. I like sat in my car and I cried
because I was like, so it's happening right now.
A mix of emotions of like, I don't know what they're actually
going to do is actually stickingthis time because there have
been this will they won't they for so long that it just became

(27:50):
unbearable and like I couldn't take.
It yeah, I am. I I, I have this feeling of, you
know, this, this like sense of patriotism, not for like the
government, but for this countryand like the people within it.
And this idea of like, you know,this is a place for the tired

(28:13):
and the poor to come and be and to have an opportunity to grow,
you know, those ideas that were supposed to hold true, you know,
and, and so this idea that like,I loved this country, but this
country does not love me back. And, you know, you spoke to that
a little bit. You know, that, that it's not a,
a failure of, of you personally,it's the systems that aren't

(28:35):
designed to support you. Can you speak to a little bit of
what it's like to to be trained to protect the country that's
now made it so hard for you to just simply live in your own
skin? So this is like a great
question. I am currently writing about my
experience that I've had over the course of the Army and I've

(28:57):
entitled it fighting for my oppression.
And actually, would you mind if I read you just a little bit of
that? Please God that would be
amazing. When I first enlisted in the
military, it was a choice filledwith purpose and pride.
Whether it was the promise of college, the desire to find my

(29:18):
path, or deep sense of duty, I was ready to serve my country.
But as time passed, the troubling thought begin to gnaw
at me as a double minority, I found myself questioning whether
I was truly fighting for the rights of my nation or if I was
in some way willingly defending the privileges of those who had
historically oppressed me. It was a moment of
introspection, a story unfoldingin my own mind as I grappled

(29:42):
with the complexities of my roleand the values I hold dear.
And I, I took that to start thiswhole thing that I'm writing
because I mean, it's really trueto how I feel.
Currently, I'm in a job where I'm fighting for the American
freedom. But right now what we've been

(30:04):
seeing is the American freedom is not for all.
It's for white sis, straight men.
And, and it's something that I think we've all knew, we've all
always knew, but we were hoping that through the years things

(30:24):
would progress. And in some ways they were.
And in some ways, I was happy toput on that uniform because I
felt like I was pushing us towards that way.
But especially with Donald Trumpbecoming president, I can just
see things taking hundreds of steps back.
So one of the things that I really liked is when you said

(30:45):
the double minority thing. And it really calls to me
because also as a black trans woman, it's just sort of like
seeing that level of white privilege when it comes towards
like central normativity, especially in the military.
Like what? At what age did you transition
again? I transitioned at 21.

(31:07):
I started my. Transition, yeah.
So, so I'm sure you get to see like, don't think of it as a
better way to put it, sort of like, were you in the military
at the time of your transition? Yes, I went into the military at
age 18. So then you got to see sort of
the military, the way that that privilege sort of shapes people

(31:28):
as like someone who perceives themselves as like a a black guy
as opposed to someone who is a black trans woman.
Now you can kind of see that like no, it was there from jump,
right? For those of you who might have
some level of privilege, it might be hidden or something
that seems like, oh, I I it cameout of left field, but like

(31:48):
stuff like that is just so ubiquitous to everything
involving even stuff such as themilitary, if that makes any
sense. Has I I, I find that, you know,
this this idea that it just dawned upon me, you know, with
with your age that Donald Trump being in your life essentially
until age 11. I mean, you know, of course,

(32:10):
Celebrity Apprentice and prior to that, but you know, I can't
imagine what's that what what that's like having grown up in
your formative years seeing was that did did did the political
landscape changing in the in themid 2000 tens?
Did that influence your desire to get into the military?

(32:33):
I think in a way it did, but I do know from a very young age,
especially growing up black, I always had to be hyper aware of
the situation I was living in. I was living in the world as a
black person. And then when I found out I

(32:53):
liked men, I thought, oh, I'm living in the world as a black
gay person and then a black trans woman.
And it I just, especially when Trump came into play as someone
who really didn't care about politics before at all, I

(33:13):
started thinking about politics.I started thinking about who is
in charge of us and how that plays a major role.
I mean, the death of George Floyd, Brianna Taylor, these
people who I saw lose their lives as a child who looked like
me, you know, And when I see people like Donald Trump not

(33:38):
care, when I see people say, Oh,well, George Floyd was a drug
dealer or he had counterfeit money on him, instead of like
saying, well, we have a problem of police brutality heavily
affecting the black community. Just the complete disregard for
black lives with also basically saying we don't care about you,

(34:04):
but you also have the same rights as us.
They want to basically push a narrative that every person
who's a minority isn't losing anything.
But in the same stance, they want to say, well, they're
losing everything by us having alittle bit of what they have.

(34:25):
Mention. So you're in the military,
you're, you go in at a, you know, basically right, right out
of high school, right, Right. Tell us about your discovery

(34:45):
that it was more than just beinginterested in guys.
How did you get there? So when I was around like like
15, I found out what a drag plane was and in doing so I was
like, this is so awesome. I even performed in a drag show

(35:10):
that same year for a a youth LGBTQ project, Glisten.
They had an event over at Northern Kentucky and I did a
drag show there and that was so awesome.
It was so really fun to explore that feminine side of me that I

(35:31):
didn't show often, you know, because my dad definitely
wouldn't let me show that part. My grandpa wouldn't.
So a lot of the times I was keeping that part closed off
until I was able to exclusively be with my mom, who allowed me
to explore that feminine side ofme.
And during that time, I also told my mom I was like, hey, I

(35:53):
think I may be trans because being at that event, I saw trans
kids who were living in their truths and it I was envious in a
way. I'm so I told her I might be.
And basically at the time she was like, I can't let you do
this at this age when you're 18.I'll support you all the way

(36:17):
basically. So after like a while of sitting
in that, I kind of was like, maybe I'm just a gay feminine
man, right? But once I got into the Army and
went to my first duty station, DLI, the Defensive Language

(36:37):
Institute at the Presidio of thePresidio of Monterey in
California, I met one of my bestfriends that I have to this day.
His name is Kadarian. Well, that's his last name, but
his first name is Nick Daniel. And he actually was one of the
first trans men to go through the gender, the gender

(37:00):
transition in trade doc, which is the training period that
you're in before you go to the actual military, as they call it
in quotation marks. But I met him and the all those
thoughts came rushing back to methat I felt when I was 15 and I
started buying girls clothes andI started wearing makeup.

(37:24):
I bought makeup and then I started wearing wigs.
And then I started going out with those clothes on and
started wearing heels with thoseclothes on.
And then it wasn't until a couple years later that I was
like, every single time that I'mhearing someone use the words,

(37:44):
he was having a visceral reaction to me.
Any masculine pronouns I wasn't liking.
So that first experience being when I was 19 when I was like,
oh, I just like dressing in women's clothing and that's all
I'm doing. Where to the point where all my
clothes are women's clothes. I'm only identifying with

(38:07):
feminine pronouns that I really like.
And then 2020, I stopped using my dead name.
I didn't like it anymore. And I start identifying as Kaz.
And when people would call me Kaz, the the joy I felt with

(38:35):
being called Kaz. And when people would say, Oh,
well, she said this, the the joythat I felt during that time, I
was like, this is who I am. And from there I told my

(38:55):
boyfriend at the time, now husband, hey, this is what's
going on with me. And he has been so supportive
ever since. He says, I love you.
I love you who you are regardless of your gender.
I love you and I'm going to be with you.

(39:16):
And that was so awesome. I went to behavioral health.
I told them what was going on. I got the diagnosis of gender
dysphoria in the first couple ofdays, but took a couple of
months. So we could be sure,
unfortunately, because she was avery, very thorough therapist.

(39:40):
But I got that after I got that diagnosis, I finally changed my
name and dears and then on my birth certificate and then on
my, on my ID and then I on my Social Security card.

(40:01):
It was just like everything thatI changed my my gender marker as
well. Unfortunately my gender marker
of course because of everything.For the military, says ma'am.
But everywhere else I'm I'm currently in the process of
putting female on that and I've been so happy ever since, since

(40:27):
coming out and finally being in my true self.
You know that and, and, and to be, you know, in, in the process
and to be in the military, you know, in this hyper regulated
binary space, like what was it like to, to to to, to, to feel,
to blossom into yourself surrounded with these rigid
expectations of gender and power?

(40:49):
What was, you know, you know, in, in, in as you're serving in
your transitioning. I can't imagine what what that
contradiction was like. So in a lot of ways and a lot of
times I felt like I was D transitioning every day because
I would be my true self outside of duty hours.

(41:11):
But as soon as I went in, I had to take the wig off the makeup,
no earrings, you know, keep yourhair cut short and wear the male
clothing that they have. So that was, and it still is
sometimes very troubling to me right now.
Thankfully, I don't have to be in uniform.

(41:34):
I can be in civilian clothes while I'm doing our processing
process. But it it does feel,
unfortunately, with everything going on, that I never really
got to be my true self and servemy country at the same time.
Because even before then, I had to have been on gender affirming

(41:59):
hormones for a year before I caneven get it changed in the
military system. And I didn't even start on
hormones until December of last year because of how long
everything takes. So while I had been living as a

(42:20):
trans woman, I hadn't been on hormones, and I had to keep on
being not my authentic self for a long time.
So I've been on hormones for a little bit over six months now,
I think. But unfortunately, I got on
hormones after Trump already hadgotten named president.

(42:43):
Yeah, so weak. So you're, so you're out
processing now and, and you know, we're, we're entering
this, this new space. I guess you, I mean there it's a
new chapter essentially now withwith what, what, what you're
doing what, what does service mean to you now on your own

(43:03):
terms? Services way much more than a
uniform. I continue to want to help
people, the less needy in the world, even being part of that,
you know, most marginalized. I want to help others.

(43:24):
So I still plan on doing jobs that are meaningful to me.
Like I still plan on, I go, I'm going to college this fall and I
plan on hopefully at the end of those four years getting my
bachelor's in psychology and then later on down the line,

(43:45):
maybe a PhD, who knows. And I plan on using that to help
children with gender dysphoria and who identify as trans and
who identify as LGBTQ plus period.
Because if anything has told me about, if anything has taught me
about these last couple of months is that things can change

(44:06):
very fast for everyone. And especially knowing the
things that I felt as a child and not having that outlet in a
lot of places, I want to be thatoutlet for other kids like me.

(44:31):
I'm sort of struck by the fact that that you've been working
for Tulsi Gabbard as the director of National
Intelligence. Your intelligence filters up for
somebody who hasn't displayed much, but that's a whole
separate a whole separate thing.Being a trans person in the
military. Obviously as this developed, as

(44:55):
you came more into yourself, others in your unit probably
noticed, Yes. How did they react?
So I had. I was in my first unit at this
point when I had first started like saying like yes, this is
who I am, like my first row unit.

(45:18):
So I was out of DLI at that point, the defensive.
Language Institute. Right, sorry.
Yeah, we have to remember that most people, right?
Yeah. Acronyms.
You're going to make their head pop.
Yeah. We have to keep it down to
earth. So after the Defensive Language
Institute, I went on to AIT, or Advanced Individual training,

(45:42):
and specifically my job as a human intelligence collector.
And then after that I went to myfirst unit where I'm here now in
Fort Campbell. You can I ask some of the
acronyms? You did say their names.
You just straight out drop them.But I have no context and I was

(46:04):
even in the military. What it sounds like when you're
like, oh, defense word, whatever.
It's like, oh, she knows how to use like the Thun from Skyrim or
something. Defense words is combat.
Great job. Can you tell us a little bit
more about that? Like what do those words mean?
OK, so the Defensive Language Institute is a language school

(46:25):
basically at the Presidio of Monterey, which is a basically a
training base in Monterey, CA. And their whole thing basically
there is to teach certain jobs in the military new languages.
So for me it was learning and being proficient in French in

(46:47):
nine months. They also have Mandarin Tagalog.
So like a CTI for the Navy is what I think of that would be
the equivalent, OK. Cool, right?
Yeah. What's the CTI?
They're like the crypto cryptographer intelligence.
They learn new languages and usethat for intelligence gathering.

(47:10):
Right, and they most likely havewent to the Defensive Language
Institute because the Defensive Language Institute houses the
entire military, even the Coast Guard, even the Space Force for
specific jobs who need to learn different languages.
So yeah, from Mandarin to Frenchto Arabic, so many different

(47:36):
languages. There's a couple languages that
they don't do anymore, but Spanish they have.
So just different language dependent jobs in the military.
That's where you would go to learn that if you weren't
already proficient in a second language.
So you go back to the unit, to your first event, you're in Fort

(47:57):
Campbell and you're starting. I mean, I don't know.
I don't know what you're coming out was like, but in most of us,
it's in stages and people start going, hey, wait, your eyebrows
are shaped differently. For me, it was a judge looked at
me and said, did you have two earrings when we started this
case? People pick up on these things.

(48:21):
What was that like when you're in the military?
So for me, I have about like 6 different wigs that I was
wearing and when I first got to Fort Campbell, I had met up with
a friend that I had met in basictraining and we would go out

(48:43):
have fun and I would be, she will be styling my wig for me
and I would be wearing my heels.My platform is whatever while
going out drinking and having fun basically.
But as far as the on the actual in my unit side, I was like, OK,

(49:05):
I'm starting this process and I'm about to have to have a lot
more going to the therapist, going to appointments basically.
And I was just like, hey, this is what I'm doing.
This is who I am. These are my pronouns now
basically just like out with it to really only my command at the

(49:29):
time. Most other people I didn't feel
a need to tell until around 2024.
Middle 2024, I started telling more people because I was making
more headways in my transition. I was going out to company

(49:54):
events that we could wear civilians for and girl clothes
and skirts and wigs and things like that.
And to be honest, besides like one person, I've had such an
amazing support from my company which you wouldn't expect from a

(50:15):
whole bunch of military men besides like I guess like 3
girls in my like platoon so liketo.
Have military has come a long ways then, because back in the
day this used to be like it was scandalous.
Wow. Props to the Army.
Maybe it was just the Navy, but props to the.
Army I and that's one thing thatI think a lot of people don't

(50:38):
think when they hear the military nowadays is I think a
lot of at least from my experience, I haven't had bad
experiences with a military men a little bit some before I got
with my boyfriend, but my husband at the time.

(51:01):
I am malfunctioning like a broken robot.
It does not compute. I'm sorry.
OK, continue. My bad.
No, you're, you're so fine. So before I got with my husband,
I was dating around, of course, the nearest people to me were
military people. And that was my like, extent of
like having troubles with military men.

(51:23):
But outside of that, they've allbeen cleaned.
This stuff up. Yeah.
I was in when they were trying to clean out, as they called it,
the more they're trying to Polish the turd that was the
military that that it was when Iwas in, they were removing
hazing and all that other stuff and it was still very prevalent,
like it would happen all the time, but they were slowly

(51:47):
cracking down on it to make it amuch more professional place.
And I'm glad to see that it seems to be becoming a more
professional place. And, and don't get me wrong, a
lot of my experience that I've seen is I have a good, you know,
I have friends that, who are in other units who have very

(52:09):
different stories where they hear the, the remarks, the, the
sexual innuendos, the hazing still exists.
You know, a lot of it still exists, but under like very
tight, tightly wound I guess. It's just gone underground, you
might say. Right, but as far as I'd like,

(52:31):
my command has been so awesome throughout my this whole process
of me having to get out and thenoh, well, you're back and then
Oh well, no, you're getting out.They hate that I'm leaving.
Like I have one of my sergeants right now is like was so pissed
when he like was reading as he was reading the memo for that.

(52:53):
Pete Hegseth had wrote to basically command the military
to start kicking us out because they they basically say we don't
hold to the Army values. We don't hold to these things
that they know, and people in our command know that we hold
to, right so. Tyranny of Pete had say doing

(53:15):
that when it's sort of like, do you we all know the scandal most
recent that has your name on it,why you're kicking out competent
people after what just happened.You can.
You can send, you can blow humanintelligence by sending stuff
out on signal, by sending out war plans, putting soldiers and
airmen's lives at risk. But it's the trans people who

(53:37):
are not upholding the values, incapable of having the
integrity to serve this name. It's the most ridiculous thing
in his. So as as someone with deep
linguistic intelligence, how do you see language being
weaponized in this current anti trans legislation that we're
seeing? And how might we reclaim or
recall that language? So when we're talking about from

(54:05):
like a linguistic standpoint, the the way that they're wording
especially things towards the trans community right now.
When you're saying when you're seeing them removing the T from
the TQ plus from LGBTQ Plus and just having LGB, when they're
calling us rapist and when they're calling us pedophiles,

(54:30):
they're using very targeted language for people who don't do
research, for people who just listen to the Republicans on the
Republican side, they're listening to that and it enacts
a fear response in Republicans or especially MAGA right now.
So for some MAGA, it definitely is from an insidious standpoint

(54:54):
where they just don't like us. A lot of it does stand from a
point where they're just listening to what they're what
they're hearing and they think that we are a problem when no
problem exists. And that just comes from not
having proper research and not doing what needs to be done to
know if you're if Republicans are lying to you or not or

(55:20):
Democrats are lying to you, right?
They're not doing that research.So they're listening to these
pointed, targeted words to us and taking that as we're keeping
us safe. That's why they've been saying
like, keep kids away with it. Do what you want, but keep the
kids. Don't let the kids transition.

(55:41):
Basically, they're making it seem like we're forcing children
to transition when that's not happening at all.
And one of the biggest ways thatI think we as a community, just
anybody on the left really can change that narrative is 1.
People who aren't a part of thiscommunity need to do a lot more

(56:06):
community outreach because unfortunately, white sis people
aren't going to listen to a black trans woman most of the
time because they're already against it.
So if they're hearing someone that they're against speak out
against what they believe in, they're already going to have
that layer up there. So we need more sis, sis men who

(56:30):
are willing to stand out, sis women, people, other people in
the LGBTQ community to speak outwith us.
It can't just be us because I have been seeing the divide
lately where we've been seeing the, the pick me gay men and the
pick me lesbians who have been saying, oh, well, I voted for

(56:52):
Trump and it's LGB. Forget the T, you know, this
whole thing where we're seeing people who are supposed to be on
our side, Democrats even, who aren't saying anything to
actually enact movement. Because I mean, even Kamala, I,

(57:14):
I voted for her and I would havewanted her to win, but she
didn't say throughout her campaign really anything to
insinuate that she was really behind us.
I think that's also with the more recent, wasn't there like
recent releases or whatnot involving her and dictations

(57:34):
given by like Joe Biden for her basically to continue the
campaign? I'm not trying to defend the
lady. It's just I I recognize what's
going on is like Black woman running for office basically got
screwed over by a geriatric old person who didn't want to give
up the reins. But she could have done better.

(57:56):
I think. Yeah, she could have done
better. But like we, she really had a
bad shake from the start. Yeah.
Kind of feels, especially with the recent ongoing stuff with
the Democrats, so they sort of just kind of like just they're
not really doing enough for us. You know, and it, and it feels
it, it, it, it, it feels like we're just speaking to a wall at

(58:20):
this point, you know, like it's just falling on on ears, not
listening. But what keeps you speaking
cast? You know, how do you, how do you
keep going knowing that like so many people are just they don't
even know so many you like you bring this up to somebody out
there, they just drop and they're just like, what?
Like what are you talking about?Like how?

(58:40):
Honestly, the the funny reason is because I love shutting up a
bigot. I love telling a bigot wrong and
I love shoving it in a bigot's face that hey, I know more than
you. But the honest reason is I, like
I said, doing community service and being in the community and

(59:03):
preaching the trans gospel is something that I love so much.
I love being that voice for people who may not be able to
have that courage to speak out or don't have the ability to.
Right now. I have the ability to.
And I have, even if it may be a small, I have a platform that I

(59:24):
can reach people with. I periodically debate on TikTok.
And I think even if I'm not getting through to the person
I'm debating, there's someone inthose comments who are listening
to what I'm saying and who is taking it in.
And those are the people who I'mdoing it for.

(59:44):
Because the more minds we change, whether it be Minsky or
not, that's another person who is on my side and is fighting
for me. So I think my strength comes
from what can I do to push for progress in my community,

(01:00:05):
regardless of how long it may take or regardless of if I'm not
getting people's attention in the way I want to, because I
know that there are people who are listening to me.
You know, 'cause I, I, I really liked how you said preaching the
trans gospel. I think that's, I think that was
really beautiful. What is that, you know, take me

(01:00:27):
into with that, you know, let's go.
You know, we spend so much time in, in, in so much of like the
tragic aspects of our reality. But you know, when I hear you
say preaching the trans gospel just gives me this feeling of
like joy and euphoria, like takeme into what that means to you
and and how that how you apply that to your life.

(01:00:47):
What are the trans constables? The biggest tenant of I think
being trans is we're unapologetically ourselves and
we move so throughout day-to-daylife.
And we don't force people to live in a truth that they're not
ready to accept. And we don't force people to be

(01:01:11):
a part of our group if they're not.
We, I think in in my, how I see myself and how I see other trims
people, we exude a lot of the things that I think a lot of
people wish they had. And especially CIS people is we

(01:01:31):
live in our truths and we're happy to do it.
And a lot of people see that andthey see something that they
can't have. They see something that they'll
never be able to attain because yes, I have ginger dysphoria,
but I put this wig on and I put this makeup on and I look at
myself. And even though I may not be

(01:01:52):
feeling the best that day, I tell myself, I'm pretty.
I tell myself, oh girl, you're working that wig, Go out and do
what you got to do today. And a lot of people can't look
and look at themselves in the mirror and do the exact same
thing. You mentioned that that you're

(01:02:15):
on TikTok from give everybody your AT.
So you can find me on TikTok at Kaz realized, Kaz dot relized.
So that's Kaz dot realized. Is it your experience on TikTok?
I say fellow TikTok person. Yes, Kristen.
She's live all the time. The friends content that your

(01:02:38):
content is being suppressed these days.
Yeah, I I do see it. Like I used to make videos and I
was getting in the thousands of viewer range and now sometimes
I'm lucky to hit that 500 mark. Now I'll get a a video every now

(01:03:02):
and again. Like I just posted a video a
couple of days ago that has around 14,000 views, but most of
my views are getting like 200 to500 views.
And it does suck when I feel like I'm putting out good
content and I'm putting out things that actually mean
something to me and it doesn't get the the views that that I

(01:03:28):
want them to. But I'm, I still, I still do it.
I'm I'm still going to post and I'm still going to try to make
something that could make a trans girl laugh or bring
information to a bigot. Because if I'm not doing it,
there's one less person who is spreading that message out

(01:03:48):
there. Well, I can tell you that that I
have more than 20 times the followers on TikTok that I have
on Instagram. And now Instagram con content is
getting 10 times the plays of TikTok where it used to be a
video would hit a million. I think that's good.
And now if it breaks 10,000, I'mshocked.

(01:04:11):
Yeah. There's something going on
there. I've I've noticed with with, you
know, because I don't use socialmedia as often, like, you know,
for posting it. I podcast, you know, but getting
on a TikTok, it's like it's, it's so different, you know, and
I've noticed that like there's this like, you know, I'd be

(01:04:32):
myself right on the app. But then like what he wants is
that because then the algorithm doesn't push it.
So then it's like, OK, well, then I got to like kind of sell
this idea, this version of myself.
And, and then in that sense, it's like maybe one of the
videos feels authentic, but thenyou get to say the other looks
like, oh, well, if I want to getseen on TikTok, I've got to keep

(01:04:53):
posting videos. And then it's like, then I'm
fishing for content and it doesn't feel rooted on
authenticity because then it feels like I'm having to say
something more than than what I should just because in order to
get any of the things that I have been saying heard, I'm
fighting against an algorithm. There's like that tension
between authenticity and, and, and like strategy and, and

(01:05:16):
posting and getting it out there.
So how do you kind of how do youkind of find that balance
between like that tension between creating something
authentic, but then also something that you know is going
to get the attention of the people to see your.
Your content, I try to stay as authentic to what one I find
funny or I find that is truest to me to get those views

(01:05:44):
regardless of if I'm going to get them or not.
Because I I think for me that attracts more people who
actually are looking to see thatcontent genuinely and I do.
I get DMS all the time on TikTokof people who say like horrible

(01:06:09):
transphobic things, but I also have people who DM me with, hey,
could you talk a little bit moreabout this?
Or hey, I thought this was happening, can you explain it a
little bit more? And I'll do that.
And I feel that helps a lot morefor narrowing down the people
who actually can get get information from me.

(01:06:32):
So there will be sometimes and I, I'm, I'm getting paid to post
specific ads sometimes and I do it and sometimes I'm like, OK,
I'll do it. And I may not like the product
that much, but I may upsell it alittle bit.
But besides that, everything else on my page is like fully

(01:06:56):
me. I'm laughing at it or I'm loving
what I'm putting out. And I just picked up my phone
and there you are, cast not realized.
And I'm just so you know. Thank you.
You kind of brought up this ideaof like, you know, this like
relational slower impact of, of content reaching, you know,
created audiences over like rapid, it's like viral content,

(01:07:22):
you know, How do you think that kind of shapes the world that
we're trying to build, especially for our queer
siblings? I think when we're talking about
content in general for the transcommunity, one, to be honest,

(01:07:43):
the forefront of who we're seeing majorly is like Dylan
Mulvaney or Lily Tino, which aretwo white women, right?
That's all we're seeing. I would love to see more
diversity, which we have people like Kat who also does YouTube

(01:08:05):
like that and but there's not a lot of them, right?
I would love to see more diversity being forecasted in
the trans community, but really in the TikTok world as well and
social media as well. We're not seeing a lot of
diversity, period. But especially in the trans
community, we need to be having voices from all types of trans

(01:08:28):
women. Some I wouldn't love so much
because of the stuff that they opposed, but.
OK, you said it. Come on, You.
You brought up her name. You brought up that name.
Yeah, well. I don't want to hijack them.
Can we hijack things and just gogo off on this?
Please spill the tea on this I'm.

(01:08:48):
I'm behind the tide. I'm an old.
Person we don't advocate for taking bathroom taking photos of
ourselves in the Disney World bathroom as a trans woman, we
don't. There's this person.
Is this person named Lily Tino? No, We.
Don't want to give names? Let's not give platform her at
all. OK.
All right. Well, there's a person.
That's the person. Who, who does not live here in

(01:09:09):
Florida, where I do live, but who comes to Florida to go to
Disney and is very visibly trans?
Very visibly trans and makes very little effort to blend in,
which is a choice, but goes out and tries to provoke controversy

(01:09:30):
by reviewing women's bathrooms at Disney World or by and and
goes and makes a spectacle of herself and we.
Sure, this is a good faith actor.
That was my first question because we've all seen what
happened in California where andwhere a cisgender man walked

(01:09:52):
into a woman's changing room, a Republican cisgender man, I
would point out and said. I've I've almost had myself, my
I've almost had my shit rocked in a in a woman's restroom
because men have been upset overme using one.
I am confused as to why any of us would go in there as a sort
of stir the pot sort of thing. This person does exactly that

(01:10:16):
and. This does not feel like a good
faith actor, just feels like somebody who's like, well, I
couldn't be trans. Let me be a predator and rely on
your ability to be, to empathizewith me.
No, no. And.
It's, and it really has sparked a big, you know, a debate on
TikTok and it really has shown the colours of a lot of people

(01:10:38):
because this instance, especially with this individual
has, it's like, it gives, it gives those with like internal,
like transphobia a space to likelet it out.
Because, you know, we'll often hear this individual so fiercely
misgendered and dehumanized in the sense of, of, of, you know,

(01:11:00):
but, but The thing is, is that Ithink what people really should
understand is that that trans people, just like anybody can
also be very shitty. And, and I think it's, and I
think it's important that that people don't look like they put
us on a pedestal, like, Oh, you're hot.
It's like, no, no, no, they're listen, they're shitty.
Trans people, yeah. Right.
So you know it's. A bit of an asshole myself.

(01:11:22):
Right and we know why TikTok, you know, platforms, you know,
individuals, you've mentioned the names because they're white,
they're palatable, They're they're what the mainstream
wants trans people to look like.They wanted.
They don't want to be bothered. They you know, but but who's
left out? You know, when we kind of chase
that kind of visibility as we'rewe're.
Leaving out trans people who also go through life as a Black

(01:11:47):
person who also will buy POC in general.
Because me, as a Black person, Iam going to face transphobia as
well as racism. And sometimes I'm going to face
that racism from other trans people.
Yes, yeah. So I'm going to also go through

(01:12:12):
having to go through life as someone who doesn't maybe in the
conventional standards past, butstill has things to say other
than I'm reviewing this bathroom, right?
Because I, I feel like the more trans experiences that we're
seeing being pushed in the media, more people will see that

(01:12:35):
trans people are literally the exact same people as CIS people.
We're not just this one small little thing.
I mean, even what you see in howpeople want certain surgeries to
be looking certain ways for trans black women.

(01:12:57):
I don't want to look like a white woman after I get off that
surgery table. But to a lot of people, they'll
look at how I how I get that andsay, oh, well, you're still not
feminine enough. So I feel like the more that
we're talking about, not just the the white trans of way of

(01:13:20):
doing things, we'll, we'll be able to push past this very one
track way of thinking for trans people.
Yeah, I just said, I think he said it really well, Caroline,
that that there's a spectrum that, you know, they're good
trans people, they're bad trans people.
There are people in the middle and there are people who blend

(01:13:43):
in who are traditionally feminine or masculine if they're
trans men, and there's some who are not.
But guess what? For cisgender people, it's the
same. A lot of a lot of the women who
get beaten up and harassed in bathrooms for allegedly being
trans are cisgender women who just happen to be more mask

(01:14:05):
presenting. You know, you said, you said I
don't want to look like a white woman after surgery.
And, you know, I think that hitshard to like this idea that
colonial beauty standards still dominate, this idea of like what
like a successful transition is.You know, how can we?
But how can we build, like, morenuanced conversations around

(01:14:25):
this idea of passing that honor,safety, survival and
authenticity, you know, without shaming people on any part of
the spectrum that that, that, that, that we have?
There's also it's. I'm so sorry.
I don't know. I was just going to say no.
You can go. What I was going to say is we

(01:14:47):
also need to take account of thesafety aspect of it as well.
Like for those of you out there who do decide to maybe taper
down your nose or whatnot, we'renot pooping on you or whatnot.
We recognize there's a level of safety in going for the European
beauty standards. So as you're saying, Cass, I'm
sorry for interrupting you. No, you're totally fine.

(01:15:10):
So what I was saying is I think we need to have a broader
conversation about how possibility is highly
subjective. Not all women look the same.
Not all trans women are going tolook the same either.
And I think when we start saying, well, this is the model

(01:15:33):
that you have to look like in order to pass, we're leaving out
people who have that that knows that you're clocking is from a
black person immediately or anything like that.
Williams sisters, right? Like having maybe a more broader

(01:15:54):
shoulders. My mom and my sister have the
exact same shoulders I do, but they're not being called trans,
right? But that's the problem.
We're seeing the exact same thing once this woman every day
that we're seeing in trans womenwho have been transitioning, but

(01:16:14):
they're looked at as less than because they're not doing, I
guess more or specifically more that other people want them to
do other than that's true to their experience as a trans
woman in their transition. Can I take 45 seconds for a
rant? Yes, please go right ahead.

(01:16:35):
Do it. OK, I think there is internal
transphobia in all of us in the use of the words transitioning
and passing, and I've tried to strike them from my vocabulary.
I am not trying to pass myself off as something I am not.
I'm a trans woman and that's whoI am whether I blend in or not

(01:16:57):
in society, I'm transgender. I'm not going to.
I am never going to be a cisgender woman, so I will not
talk of passing ever. I'll talk about do I blend in?
Do I not? Do I look like other classical
cisgender women or not? I don't care, but I'm not trying
to pass myself off. Similarly, transitioning.

(01:17:18):
I'm not transitioning. I'm the same person that I was
the day before I came out. Just a hell of a lot happier,
much better dressed and I will admit I got better boobs, but
but I will. It is not a transition for me.
I'm the same person. It's a transition for those
around me who see me differently.

(01:17:41):
So I talk about coming out, but I don't talk about because I
didn't transition. I just took off the damn mask.
So and a friend. Sorry.
Oh, I love that. I love that.
Andrew, sorry. Now what?
You know what though, I, I, I appreciate that.
Speaking of ranting, you know, if you'd like to rant on this
podcast with us, please e-mail us at

(01:18:04):
transnarrativepodcast@gmail.com.That's trans narrative.
Yes, that's that's a transnarrativepodcast@gmail.com
transnarrativepodcast@gmail.com.Please reach out.
We'd love to have you on the show.
Oh my God, what a wonderful timewe've had tonight.
This has been such a joy. I've really, I've enjoyed this.

(01:18:25):
Oh my God, Lucy, it's so good tohave you back here on the show.
It's been a pleasure. Yes, first, first, first episode
of Season 4. Welcome back.
It's good to have not the first episode, but your first episode
back. It is.
Yes, it is. I was.
I do apologize for our guests. I'm sorry.
I was unaware of the new vibe. It it seems we're going for more
of a NPR vibe. I don't, I don't know.

(01:18:48):
I love it. Don't worry how enjoy it.
Embrace it. I I really, just really love
spending this time with, with you, especially the audience
listening and, and Cass and Lucyand and Kristen, it's, it's a
pleasure to come here every weekand, and to be here.

(01:19:09):
I, I really appreciate you taking the time to listen
audience. It really does mean the world
that you're here and you tune inevery week.
And Cass, thank you for taking the time to be here.
Kristen, Lucy. So before we go, Kristen, do you
have any final thoughts, questions you'd like to?
Ask just be excited. I've got to know somebody new to
follow on on TikTok and and I can't wait to see our content.

(01:19:32):
So thank you for having us and Lucy, great to meet you too.
This is. Oh, it was my pleasure.
I didn't get to say as many lines as I normally do, like I
couldn't tell them how I'm fantasy reality lately.
But thank you for having me Caroline.
It's great. Always a pleasure to be on the
show. It's always a pleasure to have

(01:19:53):
you on my show too. Thank you so much.
I love having you here like pleasure is all yours.
It's the temptation. I put it in her water.
Let's just hope that that calmerheads prevail and that the
courts end up doing the right thing and that Kaz gets to keep
the job that she does well and that she loves.
Ask with every other one of the trans military folks who are

(01:20:17):
being that part of their servicefor the nation.
I hope you don't have to go through the same stuff I had to
go through back in the Yesteryonder when I was in the
military during that terrible time because it takes the VA
quite a bit of time to process stuff and it takes them even
longer to get you. Your your justice.

(01:20:37):
Take it from somebody who has towait 14 years to get their shit
overturned after. Don't ask until it was repealed
like this is serious. Be on.
You already know as a black person right?
You got to be on point. It's a black trans person.
It'd be extra on point. Mm hmm.
Charles, thank you. Thank you so much for giving us
your time and your attention andfor just being there for

(01:20:59):
audience. Thank you, thank you.
What's the message? Yes.
What's the message that you'd like to leave for us this week
as we carry on? What?
What would you like to leave us with?
I would like to say that every single trans person in the
military and every person reallythat everything that sorry, let
me say that again. Every trans person in the

(01:21:21):
military I think does something that and exudes something that
every person should strive to be.
And that is the military values or the Army values, which is
leadership, loyalty, duty, respect, selfless service,
honor, integrity and personal courage.

(01:21:41):
I think we need a little bit more of that in the world.
And with having that, we can definitely get past this whole
Donald Trump situation. We can definitely get to a place
where our lives start to matter more.

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