Marla Alpert | Freja Ki Gray | Foxx Cant : Queer Art, Systemic Constraint & Literary Resistance - The Trans Narrative Podcast

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Well, hi everyone. Welcome back to the Trans
Narrative podcast. I'm Caroline, and today I have
the wonderful pleasure of being here with Fox.
Fox can't welcome back. Hi, thank you for having me.
Yes, it's so good to have you back.
And Freya Key Gray, welcome back.
How are you? Hey, I'm doing great.
Thanks for having me on the show.

(00:20):
Yes, it's so good to have you back.
Thank you. And Marla, Marla Alpert, Oh my
God, it's so good to have you back on the show.
Thanks for having me back. So Marla Alpert is a seasoned
actress and singer with nationaltour credits in Shekel and Hein
and Rang Times as well as performances with the Yiddish
theatre Oxbian. Her concludes a leg up, the

(00:41):
first LGBT farce and a lead rolein the Messed Up Playwrights
Horizons. She is also the Co host of Flop
of Heap, a podcast exploring Broadway disasters and a vocal
TikTok advocate for trans representation and media.
Freya Ki Grey is a Canadian Trains writer and performer
known for her novels Neon Acid, Switchblade and Demon of One as

(01:02):
well as her short fiction in Rumble and Grow.
She is re releasing her first novel with edits and working on
sequels to both Slash Ferric Gothic and Rumble and Grow.
Freya also creates art installing gender and identity
in works at a Halloween theme park every October as a monster
performer and Fox Can is a non binary trans film filmmaker and

(01:25):
editor. Well, she is the founder of the
Anomalous Transmissions Media, runs the YouTube channel
Foxtails, and currently manages 2 queer small businesses while
volunteering for queer nonprofits.
Oh my God, it's so good to have everyone here.
Thank you for all for being here.
Yeah, thanks for coming back andI appreciate the goodbye.
So beautiful. Hi, everyone.

(01:54):
Welcome back to the Trans Narrative Podcast.
I'm Caroline again and today I'mhere with Marla Alpert, Fox,
Can't and Freya Key Gray, all former guests on the show.
I really look forward to conversation we're going to have
today and just hearing from all of you and, and, and what's gone
on since we've last chatted. Yeah, absolutely.

(02:16):
Same. So tell me it's so good to have
everyone back. Marla, Boss, Freya.
So Freya, what have you been up to lately since you've been last
on? I think you were here in season
2 episode. Oh, that was fun.
I'm mostly just, I mean, honestly, procrastinating more
than I should be, more than writing.

(02:36):
I mean, it's not really part of the process.
It's like, you know, as procrastinating and self hatred
while you try to force yourself to action right something.
But yeah, no, mostly you've beenworking on like sequel for like
I said, if you announced the Switchblade, which is like my
Horror Story. Actually been planning a couple.
Like I've got way too many side projects.

(02:56):
I've been kind of wanting to do like a kids horror series and
been working on some art projects, especially like art
like, you know, around trans stuff.
Like a lot of my stuff has alchemical and kind of like
esoteric art and kind of expressing you know, like trans
identity through that lens. A.
Lot of like trauma based trauma processing through art.

(03:19):
Yeah, yeah, a lot of that too. Yeah, actually Fox actually gets
treated to all the stuff. But you know, art.
So she gets to see the the deranged shit I wear or draw.
And yeah, it's like I said, there's a lot of like trauma
based stuff. There's a lot of stuff about
like, you know, discrimination and, you know, even like how
we're viewed like, you know, like, like today I finished one

(03:41):
that was about, I haven't named this one yet, but he kind of has
like a, a person like in the middle of a like almost like a
circus performance where she's being watched as she's having
like, you know, gender firms, like she's like, like have like,
you know, silicone boobs being implanted and getting like laser
hair, you know, removal done. And, you know, all this kind of
like operations, like out to a crowd, you know, as, you know,
commenting and giving their comments.

(04:03):
And, you know, I think, you know, like I said, just a way to
express, you know, like how, youknow, how other people
conceptualize our bodies like they're they're kind of mystery
around it and our, you know, thekind of personal alchemy of
transition. I realized that it might be kind
of a lot there throwing up. No, I like that.
That's really great. Wow.

(04:26):
So, Marla, how have you been? Been a while.
I think the last episode I did was with Jessie Gender.
I think it was like right beforeI went in for FFS.
So I've had FFS and my boobs done and it's been like what, a
year? And something on top of that
since then. She's.
Yes. It's been almost.
Thanks. It's been almost 2 Thanks.

(04:47):
They I, I, I worked real hard for them to saw my bones off,
RIP my face off. And then I think, yes, it must
be almost. It must be almost two years,
Yeah. Yeah, I think what was it,
Novem? Was it November or I can't
remember? No, I think it was like, I think

(05:08):
it was like July. July of 2 August, it was August
of 2023, right? That would make sense, yeah.
Oh my God. Wow, that is so long ago.
Well, it's so good to have you back.
Well, welcome back. You know, I watch you on TikTok,
So and Fox. What have you been up to?
Yeah. What are you doing?
Since I was last guest on this Let's podcast, I had the year

(05:33):
from hell last year I had to move to.
I moved. I've moved twice, moved house
twice, and that's not what I want to talk about.
But that was a big influence on ultimately that's a big
influence on what I was creatingand my ability to get things

(05:56):
done where my focus had to be, which has now been able to shift
kind of back towards personal, more personal projects, more,
more of my own branded projects again, now that I kind of have
the space to it to do it. The irony is I had a video come

(06:19):
out at the beginning of 2024. I made like a 4-5 pack of
YouTube videos that talked aboutnot so much trans stuff in
storytelling, but like general how I approach storytelling
techniques and editing and the relationship between like being
a screenwriter and being a film editor and how to think about

(06:43):
adapting stories from different between different mediums and
from different stories. And the last one I did was about
writer's block and how writer's block is fear plus
procrastination, and how you just have to do it no matter
what circumstances you're in andthen spend like the next year

(07:03):
not doing it because of the circumstances I was in.
That's not entirely true, but the kind of stuff that I worked
on last year was I was pitching projects to like local film
funds either. Like I pitched a podcast video

(07:24):
podcast series, which would have, you know, brought in trans
and non binary performers and talk to them about how they
mediate gender expression and the things that they do that
like either through clothing or makeup or movement or however
that affirms their gender and what that means to them.

(07:45):
And how like that kind of relates.
And then kind of do that as likea sit down talk and then move it
into like a photo shoot for the second-half and then do like a
live photo shoot while we're miked up and just chatting.
And that did not get selected. Surprise, surprise.
And then I also did a scripted 1.
So I ended up writing like an entire TV pilot, 2-2 entire TV

(08:08):
pilots last year. So I wrote wrote the first one.
And then I was like, this is toomuch of a bottle episode.
So I wrote another another. Now they're essentially piloted
in the same the same storyline submitted that that was about
also did not get selected. Probably that one probably more

(08:29):
budgetary concerns like that's a$20,000 fund and I was like
looking at what it would cost todo what I wrote in that script
and I was like I would need moremoney.
But that was about the survivingkind of the housing crisis,

(08:49):
queer people surviving the housing crisis in places like
Vancouver or, you know, San Francisco, Oakland, for housing
is ridiculously expensive. And that was about a woman who
has kind of like, put together aweird little queer family, and
their home is in this pocket dimension.

(09:09):
And they go on adventures tryingto, like, solve issues in their
community that pop up, sometimessupernatural issues, sometimes
more mundane ones. I'm really happy with it.
I'd love to make it someday because it's essentially like
Chilling Adventures of Sabrina or something, only it's six

(09:30):
really queer people doing reallyqueer shit while solving
mysteries. And yeah, that that was that was
my last year. And now I've started streaming
five days a week. I'm streaming on Twitch and kind
of like planning on getting backinto doing YouTube.
It's just been the level of energy I have for things has

(09:56):
affected that. I think that covers where I'm
at. I have so much going on, but
we'll get there. Well, that is, you know, I kind
of like that podcast idea, you know, talking, having a podcast
and then like, you know, going into like doing makeup and
things like that. I think that's pretty cool.
Yeah. And and like, because it's
video, something interesting forpeople to watch while you're

(10:17):
talking, I thought that would bea good way to approach it
instead of like talking head style, just with a pretty
background. But.
So, you know, I think before we jump into, you know, talking
about each of our things that, that, that I'd like to talk with
you about, I have, you know, over the years since you have

(10:39):
been on have, you know, grown And, and, you know, my way of
thinking about my own gender expression has has changed or
not changed, But, you know, it'sjust, it's just grown.
And so I'm curious, you know, what has that been like for you
since you've last been here? Marla has, has, has there been
you? Know I think last I think last

(11:04):
time I was here I was using she they pronouns.
That's that's done. We're done.
That's we took the day we handedthem to someone else who needed
them. I I honestly, I, I, I think, and
this is like me personally, I got to give a disclaimer, me
personally, no one else, me personally, I think just

(11:28):
honestly had a certain amount oflike trepidation about calling
myself a trans woman before I got the surgeries.
I think after the surgeries I felt the confidence to do it.
And before I was just kind of like, well, I can kind of like

(11:49):
soothe myself by being like, well, I don't, I don't, I don't
pass. So let's let's just do she they
and maybe I'll get less shit forit.
So it's so there's some internalized transphobia that
was that was going on. Yeah, yeah, that's kind of
relatable. I definitely have found myself

(12:11):
drifting more towards she her and they is kind of like
because, you know, I think I started I started out doing she
they thing and a lot of that wasto give people in my life this
kind of like cushion as I transitioned.

(12:35):
And also like in queer circles, it's really different, like
identifying beyond the binary than it is when you're dealing
with sysat people all the time. So there was a, there was a ship
post that was on the Internet onprobably Twitter a couple years

(12:55):
ago that was kind of like my gender identity for straight
people is like, I'm a woman. I'm always a woman.
I've always been a woman unequivocally.
And then my gender identity for queer people is like, I don't
know, pick a slur. And I'm a little less cavalier
about that now. But like, I've been finding that

(13:20):
I just want in most of my interactions to be seen as a
woman and treated like one, regardless of the fact that
sometimes I drift into more like, especially when I'm doing
like, labor and stuff like that,like more mass presentation,
just because it's like, I have to wear pants and a button down

(13:42):
for this job. So it's going to be just some of
that, yeah. I don't know.
I've been managed to do the I'vemanaged to pull off skirts and
stuff on construction sites. We have fun of the right people.
You can't do it with everyone though, so that's fair.
Yeah, I like a nice scort. I love a scort.

(14:03):
We have construction going on next door.
And it was so funny because I, Ihad just seen someone stitching
to some dude that was like, men need women who's going to do the
construction? And there was this, there was a
woman out there doing the construction.
She's, you know, running all power tools, lifting all the

(14:24):
shit. And I was just like.
My wife does construction too, so she's got that contending
with, you know, guys all the time.
I used to be there, but I mean, that was mostly for
transitioning when I was just starting transition.
Oh no, no. I guess I did do concrete pads
for like a couple like summer, so that was fun too.
But it was kind of fun. Like I'm giant, so it's fun to

(14:47):
kind of go in there and show up a lot of SIS guys.
Yeah. Yeah.
See, I like, I work for the goodcareer.
Like they would, you know, they would, they'd be OK with me, you
know, ask me to come and get theheavy stuff or even like one
time I like favorite stories. I had a guy one time, I was
like, you know, we're picking stuff up in the dress as usual,
picking up supplies and I'm he'smoving like big giant pieces of

(15:09):
wood. I'm moving like twice as many.
He goes and comments, He's like,oh man, you're really putting a
shame here. As I'm turning around, he all
all of a sudden sees my purse. He's like, Oh my God, you got a
fucking purse too. Like like this This guy was
joking. He's not like he was like
seriously masculine. You know there's.
A little bit of that. Yeah, it's kind of fun to do.
I, I do the same thing with my neighbors.

(15:30):
I mean, I'm not, I'm not, I'm 57so and I don't think any of them
think that trans like as far as I know, unless they've like
found my Internet. But I don't think anyone knows
I'm trans. But the neighbors down the block
are all like I think former firemen and police and probably
conservative. I know at least some of them are

(15:51):
and you know, they're always outthere grilling, but it's I'm I'm
AI love cook other than doing theater and like I, I'm a cook
and I, I love doing like slow smoked BBQ.
It's like my favorite thing in the world and I have the biggest
barbecue and smoker on the entire block.
So I just, I, I enjoy going out in the summer and like the

(16:13):
tiniest little like micro tank top and like tiny shorts and
like they'll walk by and they'llbe like you grill it and they're
like burgers and I'm like, oh cool, I got 220 LB briskets on
smoker. But your thing sounds good too.

(16:33):
Amazing. Yeah.
I think construction would be a lot easier, a lot easier
environment to be in for women if men were more respectful of
the fact that women can essentially do most of the
things that men can do. We're not there yet, so.

(16:55):
Yeah, Marla, you know, when we were here the last time, you
were kind of spoke about, you know, the the way the theater
had been treating great people in general.
And so how has that changed for you personally?
And not at all. But he what was the next part of
the question? Well, I guess the next part was

(17:16):
going to be built upon what you had said to that.
So, you know, has there been a shift in the environment overall
within Broadway and theater and as far as, you know, inclusivity
and bringing in queer voices? I mean, obviously there's small
little changes like every once in a while someone breaks
through, right. That's going to be true.

(17:37):
I think of any marginalized group throughout history in in
the theater scene, it doesn't necessarily mean there's been
some big change. You know, like IA great example
is like Asian representation is terrible on Broadway, always
been terrible. And then you have, you know,
maybe have the ending one the Tony, but the, the Asian woman

(18:05):
actress, the lead actress was, was not nominated, which was
like, it's just so like when it comes to trans stuffy, you sort
of see like the same thing whereyou see like little, little
breakthroughs. And I, I, I think there's been a
lot of things in the past few years that look like we're doing
great, like we're moving forward.
And I'm not sure that they actually are indicative of that

(18:30):
because there's been a lot of non binary winners lately or
people nominated. And I just first of all, I don't
see trans women really or trans men either.
I don't see binary trans people really on the stage at all.

(18:52):
And when it is non binary people, for the most part,
they're playing their assigned gender at birth or they're
playing a role that is very obvious is supposed to be like
drag ish. And I don't know that that is

(19:15):
progress is because I like to view things from not how I
personally feel about it. Where I go, yay trans people
winning, yay non binary women winning.
I like to look at things from the perspective of how I think
regular schmegular degular audiences and producers and
directors are seeing things. And I think when they've seen

(19:37):
these non binary people, when I mean 2023 we had Jay Harrison
Jay who was playing, you know, it was some like it hot, which
problematic show to begin with, but they tried to save it by one
of the characters being like, I like wearing dresses now.

(19:58):
I guess I'm non binary but just like OK that I this just feels
like you're throwing us a bone. Because.
Yeah, like there's been so many more like man in a dress stories
and trans stories on Broadway. So like I'm like, are we making
progress? See J Harrison G and then Alex
Newell 1. I don't think most I mean they

(20:20):
were playing a sis woman and I don't think most people even
know that they're non binary. So I and then this year Cola
cola Scola one, which I was, I mean, I love them and I think,
oh, Mary's great. And Jack Malone.

(20:42):
I don't think Jack Maloney has said that he is non binary, but
he very much heavily hinted at it in his speech and he was also
wearing eyeshadow and lipstick. But I just feel like it's being
viewed as well. It's an AMAB person winning in

(21:05):
an in the AMAP category, in the men, the men's category, it's an
AFAP person winning in the women's category.
Almost feel like they're not willing to cross that barrier
and that they're sort of lookingat it like, oh, they're like
super gay. It's like gay.
Plus it's not necessarily trans within their the way they are

(21:26):
perceiving it, the way that the audiences are perceiving it or
the way that the directors are perceiving or the producers or
anything like that. You're just regular audiences.
You had Al Morgan Lee, who was the first trans woman nominated
for a Tony Award. I mean, she didn't win.
I mean, she was up against PattiLu Pone.

(21:48):
So and then you had Justin DavidSullivan, who I think I think
had it right because they were going to be nominated for a best
leading actor. And Justin David Sullivan was
like, I'm not doing that. I'm not, I'm not doing that.
I'm not being put in as a man. I we just need to get rid of

(22:12):
these gendered categories in in these awards things.
So much. Especially like with special
stuff like acting like it's not.Yeah, it's just bizarre.
I mean, could you imagine if they were like and the best male
director goes to like? It's only acting that they do
this for. Let's stop dog.

(22:36):
Right, you make this reward shows a lot smaller too.
You have to be so painfully like.
Well, I mean. I I think they should keep the
same number of words because people are going to complain.
I think either either either youhave two winners or you divide
each thing, musical and play, and they're winners by comedy,
musical, dramatic musical. Yeah.

(23:03):
And then let the knife fight it for the the final win.
That sounds like a you solution.We we just kind of went through
that with in the film world too,right, with that movie that I

(23:23):
did not see and I can't rememberbut having having.
Describe it to me. Having a deeply problematic
trans woman be nominated for an Oscar?
Oh, I can't remember. Oh.
My God, what was the name of it?It was.
Supposed to. Be a musical.
It was so hard to tell person that becomes.

(23:44):
Like yeah, it's the name of the K.
Gascon and Amelia Perez, thank you.
Yeah, gosh. Well, the first people also
asked, what is Carla Sophia's gender?
Thanks, Google. No, I mean like even even in

(24:07):
trance circles, there's a lot oflike infighting over who's
represented and how and what nonbinary people being like you
binary trans people are being transphobic and shutting us all
out. And then like media and
Hollywood going and grabbing allthese non binary performers and

(24:29):
say who who generally perform their assigned gender at birth
with maybe some flamboyancy or some like gender, some like just
some sort of outward gender cockery.
But like not being not, you know, going through social
transition in a way that would affect their lives the same way

(24:50):
that binary trans people do. And that is a big headache.
It's an easily digestible thing,you know, like, oh, they're not
in binary, you know, It's like, oh, it's like, it's like, oh,
they're a tomboy. They're like, you know, it's
like, it's a way to. Make it.
That's the, I think that's the way audiences often see it.
We don't want them to see it that way, but I think that at
the end of the day, they can sort of compartmentalize it that

(25:15):
way. And I think that's why it, it
seems wild to me because, you know, you have so many people
even in the trans community who are, you know, shit on non
binary people for especially nonbinary people who don't
medically transition, you know, is not being like trans enough.
And you would, and a lot of, youknow, people are like, oh, you

(25:37):
can't be obey them. You're a man or a woman.
So you would think there'd be more of an issue with them.
But I just think there's been such a long history of movies
with gender factory and character gender factory that
people can just pretend that it's essentially cross dressing
or drag or whatever. Yeah.

(26:01):
There's a disconnect, like people are like, you know, the
same way, like you look at like those, you know, I was like, oh,
in my days people were men. But, you know, you look at like
entertainers in the 80s, all themen, you know, they're dressed
flamboyantly. They have like, yeah, like early
hair and everything. Like, you know, I mean, like,
it's a, it's, there's always been kind of a weird disconnect
with that. It's like, oh, that's, you know,
like, even with like parents that are like, you know,
transformed, you know, some people are OK with, they see it

(26:23):
on TV. They're they have other people
doing it, but you know, their own kids can't do that.
You know, yeah. And, and I mean, you can look
back into the 30s and 40s and before like pantomime in the UK
has been around a long time, which involves Shakespeare as
well, right? It's built into that, that whole
idea of, you know, all of the parts are played by men, but you

(26:45):
need some of these women roles. And so we're going to do it in a
way that like please, with this idea of gender transgression,
but doesn't. But but that's only OK in
performance. It's not OK off the stage.

(27:06):
Peter was big for that, like they're because they had the
same thing was like only men playing the roles, but there
were a lot of like actors that became known for playing
feminine roles and a lot of, youknow, two were also sex workers
and but you know, it was OK because they was in that
performance, you know, capacity.Yeah, I I think Fox, what you
said is the like, I think that is so spot on.

(27:27):
Like they're OK with gender fuckery in performance and that
that's it. Like they're more fine with a
non binary person on screen thanthey are with a non binary
person in real life. And I think trans women all
together, they're just like, no,no, none of none of that.

(27:50):
You're stealing a role from a real woman or.
Real woman, Yeah, it's the same,The same with sports.
Do you think there's like like like this, this line between
gender fuckery like as a subversion between like gender
factory is like a like a spectacle for sis gaze.
Yeah, I think the sports thing too, even like ridiculous.

(28:11):
Like I saw that there's that fencer.
One woman like, you know, turneddown the fencer.
It's like most fencing is Co Ed and there's literally there's no
such thing as a biological advantage and fencing like I
don't care what you want to argue with it or like, you know
what I mean? Like there's no, it's, it's just
asinine. She beat I think three men like
2 weeks before and she's like and that like it's just she's

(28:33):
just like it's unfair. What do you mean it's unfair?
What do you mean it's unfair? I saw I saw the same thing.
I can't remember who it was. I saw some like boxer.
She was like, you know, saying that she was going off about,
you know, trans women. But then like, you know, also
she's like challenging a man. I mean, like, oh, I can beat
him. And it's like.
Yeah, what? Yeah.
It's a weird double standard that they try to pull.
It's like, yeah, I. Mean with Simone Biles right now

(28:56):
where they're like, Oh well, shenever compete against a man and
I'm like, they had men try to doher tricks and they could not do
her tricks. And.
She's not competing against. Men like people.
People don't understand how bodies work, especially like
high performance athletes. The Simone Biles is an out of

(29:19):
this world physical specimen whohas a specific body type that
allows her to do gymnastics moves that literally no other
human on earth has been able to do before.
There is no man on this planet who would be able to do the
things she does just because thethe combination of like.

(29:47):
And this is the thing about highlevel sports anyways.
It's like it's a combination of skill and your specific physical
ability and time, time and discipline and like,
understanding of your body and money and money.
Yeah, the money to be able to train, have the time to actually

(30:10):
devote yourself to something. Same thing with the arts, right?
Like you need some cost. Yeah, so.
You know, well, so Marla, like so much of theatre is about
playing roles and, and you know,but what happens when these
roles that that we play become apart of like a system or a way
of thinking that we're trying tobreak away from?

(30:32):
Can these performances help us imagine a post gender future?
Is that even possible right now?I mean, that's kind of what Jack
Malone was saying in his speech.Like because he went out there
was like, you know, I, I play a woman 8 shows a week and people
weep for her, laugh at her and like she's like he he was like,

(30:54):
well, you know, let her be. You know, the key to the binary
is, you know, not real or being destroyed because, you know,
people come up to him after the show and they talk about the
character as she right. They don't refer to the
characters she even though beingplayed by with Jack Malone.
I don't know it's Malone or Maloney.

(31:17):
I'm going to be quite honest. Sorry, I I don't know.
I'm at a point where I'm just like I will if, unless something
is absolutely horrendous for trans people, like I'm at at the
point where I'm like, if something is slightly

(31:37):
problematic, I will take it. I will try to unproblematic as
much as I can in the rehearsal space.
Like that's all you can offer atthis point or I'm getting
fucking nowhere. I mean, the, the play, the last
play I did was the same thing. There was a lot of stuff that
had to be changed and I, you know, and that that writer was

(32:00):
very accommodating and made somemajor changes.
So I thank him for that. That's not always true.
And sometimes you have to just make like the little tweaks that
you can make. Right now.
What I just want to see more than anything is, well, I want
to see two things. I want to see 2 trans women just

(32:23):
playing cisgender roles. Whether they play them as trans
or they play them as just any general woman, sis or trans
doesn't matter. Depends upon the show.
I would also like to see trans shows that are not about trauma.

(32:49):
I would like to see a show wherea trans woman just orders
breakfast and eats breakfast andthat's the whole fucking show.
Like just like have it as slice of life mundane as possible and
she doesn't die at the end. That would be cool.
So so Freya, you in fact have been worth working on follow-ups

(33:10):
to your Slasher fit, Gothic rumble and Grow.
Let's talk about like the direction these new works are
taking Freya. OK, yeah, so it's kind of funny
because I mean, I know you guys were talking like everyone was
especially like the trauma porn before.
And like for myself, I kind of do a bit of both.

(33:31):
Like I have like my first novel,the Demon Wand is much more of
an empowering kind of fun story.It does have its moments, like
trauma stuff, but most of it's more of just empowering, you
know, fun story. Actually, that one falls in the
main character assist woman and it's like her her her girlfriend
is trans. And that was like, that was one
of my fun +1. And I know if I went to neon

(33:52):
acid switchblade, that was very much like a trauma porn.
That was, you know, that was just a quick rundown.
That was like from the perspective of three men that
like murder a trans woman. She comes back to some multi
dimensional horror and basically, you know, kills them
again and again just kind of haunts them across dimensions
and, you know, fucks with their reality.
And that one was very kind of like.
I don't like horror but I am so into this.

(34:14):
Right now it's fun. So at this point it's part of a
weird thing. Is it like I've had a lot of
people like read it is I get as sad and traumatic because
there's a lot of like horrific stuff in there and.
Some parts that are hard to read.
Yeah, yeah. Like I kind of run for myself,
like I live with. This so.
Explicit, but I mean it really explicit.
Like like like all the violence and stuff is very explicit.

(34:34):
It's not from a first person perspective.
And it, it, it's bad. I mean, I, I, I with that one,
it was like, it was sort of in away, it was sort of like a
revenge fantasy in some ways. Like I kind of picture her.
She's almost a, like the main character Liza Stafford.
She's a character I created whenI was in high school.
I've been drawing her for years and I sort of transition into
her. Like, I look a lot like her and

(34:55):
I've just kind of used her. And, and so I kind of wanted to
reframe the idea of the trans woman monster.
So Cuz I, you know, you see the narratives I've always hated,
like, you know, they made the big scary fact is that she's,
you know, oh, she's got a penis.And then, you know, that's fake
and scary. Like that's what scares the sis
audiences away. And you know, so, so with mine,
I wanted to like, you know, makeher an actual like, you know, a

(35:19):
real threat and something like areal, you know, like I said,
it's kind of got that aspect of like a revenge fantasy and the
trauma porn and you know, in thetragedy and everything.
So, and I'm working on sequel because we did slash fit goth
slash fit gothic. And I had written a a spin off
story with that where I had the idea that the character Eliza,

(35:41):
now she's become like this, sucha huge like force of malevolence
and destruction. She just kind of consumes all of
reality. It's just, you know, just kind
of it's starting humanity acrosslike all, you know, dimensions.
And so this one I did a story. I originally had tried this
bully character in the first book.
I've tried doing a story from his perspective and I remember,
you know, Foxy, right? She said no, she said it's just

(36:03):
too much concentration, this misogynist like asshole.
So I ended up like like in the story he had like this
girlfriend that he was abusive towards.
So I ended up like flipping the narrative and doing it like from
her perspective, you know, coming back to this apartment
they had shared after, after he had died, after he had died from
like a, you know, kind of a druginduced crazy craziness.
And ANYWAYS, so that that way I end up like redoing that story

(36:27):
and doing it a perspective of, you know, this woman, like kind
of recovering her life and dealing with her like trauma.
And she's moving, like moving back into this apartment, you
know, with her friends and they're cleaning it up.
And she keeps having like, you know, she's going through like
different, you know, dying in different ways, having different
hallucinations and stuff about him and get get, you know, left
as kind of big if it's hallucination or what's real.

(36:48):
And, and I kind of like that perspective.
So I decided the second one to do it like perspective from a
women. So for the slash or fix story, I
ended up or second of all, I ended up doing a different
another story that actually published because the other one
got too long. But that one followed like a
trans woman who'd had a traumatizing sexual experience
with a man where, you know, likehe kind of had his like trans

(37:08):
panic after after sex and turnedon her.
And she's kind of traumatized and she's thinking about
detransitioning and she gets kind of caught in her own curse,
like having to go through these different deaths and everything.
In a way, it kind of affirms hergender and affirms, you know,
like she's going to suffer rightaway, possibly who she is.
And I'm now working on 1/3 storybecause like I said, each the
first one is like 3 separate stories kind of put together.

(37:31):
So I wanted to do that, do that same format.
And with this one, the other again, where it is traumatized,
except I want to have a bit moreof a positive outlook.
You know, again, it's like womenin the roles and they have like
a much of that, you know, kind of feel like they have more kind
of overcoming misogyny and stufflike that.
And the third story I'm actuallyworking on now and that one's

(37:51):
actually connected to my Demon of Want novel.
It's going to be kind of like a prequel to that where because I
introduced the main character used me from the Demon of want,
I introduced her in one of the other slasher ones.
And I'm going to have like the Eliza Stafford kind of falls her
into the reality of like from Demon of Want, where in the
first Demon of Want book, it falls for this girl like kind of

(38:14):
starting out, becoming a Demon Hunter, starting her own, you
know, thing. And this supposed to be like 20
years later and, you know, her life, you know, like she's like
her relationships are falling apart.
She's got like a strained relationship with her kids.
And I really want to explore with that one.
I wanted to explore relationships with children.
Like I, you know, that was like one of the things where she has
difficulties, like, you know, connecting with her one child
she had like postpartum depression.

(38:35):
And that one I'm kind of making like I want to kind of make it,
that one's a bit more of a fun story at the same time, like
it's going to have its traumaticmoments, but it's for like kind
of a spy story. So I'm not sure if I'm, I'm kind
of rambling a bit, but I think it's some idea.
But I thought it'd become a fun way like introduce her, you
know, because I, I kind of like the idea of this Eliza care
becoming like one of the main like villains throughout my

(38:57):
stories. I guess that's saying too, you
know, I like, I think there's a lot of focus all the time.
I was making like the positive trans characters, which are
good. But I think sometimes too, I
want to have a good trans villain and sort of sort of I'm
doing like, you know, with a lotof some sort of scoring hero.
But I do want to have like, I really wanted to have like a
really good like trans villain that you just gotta love.
I mean, like how many like, you know, growing up, so many

(39:18):
characters that were like, you know, villain characters were
gay coded. All the characters I was drawn
towards were were gay coded villains.
And so, you know, some kind of paying to that and, you know,
just kind of a social fuck you and kind of reclaiming, you
know, again, because trans womenare often depicted as monstrous
and horror things. So it's sort of like reclaiming
that image. Marla, I kind of want to know,

(39:39):
you know, how does weird. Yeah.
How does queer creativity look like for years of form of
resistance, especially in the year of 2025?
I mean, I can tell you what it should look like.
For me personally, it's, it's a whole lot of nothing because I
literally, it's been so it's been bad.

(40:00):
Like it's just, I cannot, I'm ina point where kind of going back
on what we were discussing before, I'm sort of in a place
where, you know, I, I feel like there's almost this thing that's
going on where it's like. They see me and they're like,

(40:23):
well, why would I cast her when I can cast a quote UN quote real
woman, You know what I mean? And there's no trans stories
really any production of Hedwig.They're not casting a trans
woman. That's like the one goddamn
thing we have. I really have should be writing.

(40:46):
I should be. I have ideas.
I have actually a great outline for a musical.
It is not, there's no transness in it.
So I, I don't really know that I'm doing anything for trans
people by writing it. It's more of a feminist musical.
I'm sure it it would be critiqued as man hating, but

(41:12):
it's it's a musical about Aqua Tafana, which is the poison that
was used in, I want to say like the 1516 hundreds that women
were using to give their husbands and or abusive husbands
or fathers or brothers or whatever.

(41:39):
Yeah, so it was, you know, it was looked like a drink and
looked like a a wine. And the woman who was known for
selling it, her name was Julia Tafana.
That's named after her. So the the show is sort of sort
of coded like Stephen Sondheim'sAssassins where it's like not in

(42:02):
one time and place. And it's just like sort of like
the amalgamations of all this one type of killing.
So the first act is about takes place all in Europe, mostly
Italy with her as the main character, but then like 3-3

(42:23):
killings that were done using poison provided by her.
And then at the end of act one we don't know if she was
actually killed or not. There's like 2 conflicting
history records. One says she got away with the
one that said she was hanged andthat she's been hanged.
She's hanged at the end of Act one, Act 2.

(42:44):
She is the narrator and it takesus through all of these other
poisonings throughout history. I believe it.
God, I can't remember off the top of my head.
It was either Mozart or Beethoven, can't remember which
one. Says Mozart here.
Mozart. Mozart Mozart, on his deathbed
claimed that he had been poisoned by Aqua Tafana.

(43:05):
But I think most historians are like, that's not true.
So he blamed a woman and. And then there's, you know, a
bunch of other people like. Killing Mozart and then run with
that. Yeah, that's a good title.
It would get people in the dwarfinstead of just poison
exclamation mark. So and then Act 2 is other

(43:31):
poisonings, like the poisoning, that of the the underpants
poisoning on the airplane that Putin did of, of one of his
adversaries, like a bunch of other poisonings.
And she's the narrator the wholetime.
And like the question comes up as this Act 2 is going on is why
are women associated with poisoning when there's all these

(43:51):
other examples? I mean, most are fakes that a
woman poisoned him and all theseother examples.
And the end, the last scene is like essentially her being told,
Hey, it's because men write the stories and then she is because
men write the stories unclothed and is now dressed with as Eve

(44:13):
with the the you know, the leaf in the last scene, she is the
original poisoner. I like that.
I would that's really good. Appreciate a good stuff for a
good like women poisoning, abusive men's story.
So that's beautiful. You get a bunch of.
It's a package. It's a package.
Have you ever seen seen Arsenic and Old Place?

(44:36):
Old film old. Arsenic and old place.
Oh my God. I saw strongly remind.
I saw the. Stage play when I was in college
they did it, but I OK don't remember it well, it's. 2 little
old ladies who poison dudes witharsenic.
You know I. Like your?
Grades wonderfully over the top and probably called the folks at

(44:58):
Boris Karloff in that one too because in the stage play
there's this joke that the one guy that had watched surgery and
then he looks like Boris Karloffis around the same time
Frankenstein came out and Boris Karloff played him on the stage
play and then another actor Raymond Mace got in the movie
forge and so it's kind of a running joke then he looked like
Boris Karloff on such a big thing Frankenstein at the time

(45:20):
so. I don't think I actually
answered the question, and it's that I've done nothing.
There's nothing like I. Literally I.
Feel that? I do have.
I'm doing a Sondheim concert at 54 below.
I was asked to sing 2 songs for that at the end of June.

(45:41):
And then someone, someone, well I'm like Olive, we don't need
it. And then someone else give her a
second. This is no one's allowed to be
outside. So somebody else today actually
contacted me about possibly doing their 54 below show.

(46:05):
So I guess I'm going to 54 belowa lot in the next 6 months.
That's good. I mean, it's, it'll be nice to
have some videos, some professional videos because my,
my agent dropped me back in November and I've just been like
been impossible without an agentto be a trans woman.

(46:25):
So, you know, that'll be fun. I'm a little freaked out.
It's been a very long time sinceI've, I mean, it's been a long
time since I've performed singing in front of an audience.
And you know, most of my pre transition life was doing it in

(46:47):
shows where you're very rehearsed, not concerts where
you get 15 minutes with the accompanist beforehand.
I feel like, I feel like a lot of what we've been talking about
today, you know, especially withthe roles and, and how we
represent ourselves and, and visibility within the culture

(47:09):
and, and our whole world still operate within this binary
gender framework. And recently I just have felt so
restricted myself within this structure of, of how I'm
supposed to identify. And, you know, it's gotten me
kind of curious. And as with all things, there

(47:30):
always comes a new word for me to learn and I found about
abolition and, and gender abolition in this sense.
And so I'm curious about how each of you see gender
abolition, if it resonates with you, what comes up when you hear
that term? And is there, is it even
possible within this capitalistic hellscape to even

(47:52):
imagine a world beyond these gendered ways of living?
Let's start with that, Freya. Actually, it's kind of
interesting. Is there a word evolution?
Because a lot of like the frame.Microphone.
You put your microphone up. I can't hear you.
And that's interesting to use about the gender evolution
because that's sort of like someof the themes I want to touch
on, like with my like in writingand my art.

(48:13):
It's like in a weird way, like Ikind of feel like, you know,
transitioning and stuff like that using that.
It's almost a self-directed, youknow, evolution or mutation.
You know, it's like I said, it'slike people want to dismiss it.
I was like, oh, that's just in your head or like whatever.
But I mean, you know, the brain is part of your biological
aspect. So, you know, and I mean, I

(48:34):
mean, if you really think about everything that humans do, like
anything that we do, our behaviors are things that we do.
They're all socially engineered.So I mean really in a way,
transitioning, whether it's through behaviors, through
surgery, all that stuff, it is all kind of socially engineering
and pushing ourselves, which is exactly what humanity does.
Like people are like, oh, you can't do that.
That's not natural. But it's like none of the stuff

(48:55):
that we do is, you know, quote, natural.
It is all been, you know, like and and it's it's in everything
we do. Like, you know, the way we eat,
the way we, you know, conduct our day-to-day stuff.
Everything is highly ritualized and engineered.
And, you know, so, so like all the restricting boundaries and
stuff like that, all that is just, you know, again,
engineered stuff that we've said, you know, women do this,
men do this, you know, if it goes like this, it's so.

(49:17):
I mean, yeah, I know. I think, I mean, I think
obviously we'd have to really break down people's
understanding and stuff. The problem is people are very
ready just to kind of see the world as it is and accept it
like the world that's that's presented to them.
And there is a lot of propaganda.
And I think, I think really appealing to realize that
ultimately we're just humane is really no different than just

(49:38):
parasites clinging to a little speck of nothingness in space.
I mean, like, you know, trees, everything they see around us,
it's all just like bacteria growing on a little speck of
nothingness. So it's like, why are we so
caught up in all these roles andideas?
Like, you know, it's ridiculous.Like it's like, you know, we
think that we're you know, we have some that there's somebody
out there like that's giving us this.
Like, you know, it's all stuff such that I think if people can

(49:59):
free themselves from this idea that we are something, you know,
like, like we just have to realize what we are, I guess as
well. Yeah, we have to stop being so
self important. Stop thinking that we, you know,
we have like big important. Like it's certainly people get
so caught up in, you know, Oh well, men are supposed to be
like this and women are supposedto be like this.
And again, it's just self important delusions that sorry,

(50:19):
I realize it's a bit of a ramble, but I mean, you know,
I'm getting it ultimately is like, yeah, it is something I
think is very possible. We just have to be able to push
ourselves to that and, you know,realize that we are just
biological things. We're not, you know, some innate
spiritual thing that you know, what you know, restrictions that
you know some God made us. Yeah, I think one of the issues

(50:42):
with human beings generally is that we like to categorize stuff
and, and even if we're not doingit rigidly, we like to
understand what role a person isgoing to play in our lives or in

(51:11):
our society or whatever. And I don't think I'm going to
use some analogies here that take us away from gender.
So I can kind of like not sterilize it, but kind of
discuss this in a way that like might be a little more
universal. But we want to know, we want to

(51:35):
have some signifiers of how we, we, sorry, we humanity generally
wants to like have some sort of,I'm not going to say consensus,
consensus on signifiers that allow us to mediate how people

(51:58):
should, what roles people embodyin the world.
And I don't think that that is something that's going to be
eliminated if we just like, destroy capitalism.
I think that you're still going to have at some level, these

(52:18):
ideas that people are going to embody certain roles in life.
And I don't. Yeah, archetypes maybe, But I I
don't even think that like it's necessarily a bad thing to say.
Like physician is a role and when you're in your role as a

(52:39):
physician, there's a like way that you talk and a way that you
dress and a way that you look atthe world because that's your
role when you're in that embodying that.
And I think that we could do. I don't think that just

(53:07):
destroying, I don't think that going through a process of just
destroying the concept of roles in terms of gender is going to
solve the problem of people doing this differentiation
right. I think what when I think of
gender abolition, I think of theremoval of gendered roles where

(53:34):
where gender becomes a concrete part of a specific type of
social role. As opposed to like parenting,
for example, where we have this idea of a stay at home mom and
the the breadwinning father, right?
Where we have very strict gendered roles in our public and

(53:54):
private sphere. Or, you know, women can be
nurses but not doctors, or they can work in the office and do
the bookkeeping, but it's the men who work in the shop and
breaking down, breaking that down, breaking that down and
breaking down this idea that youhave to appear, you have to

(54:18):
embody gender in a certain way to embody any other roles in
society. I think that that's the starting
point for me and getting to an end point where it doesn't
matter how you show up physically within, you know,
like, are you being safe for therole that you're embodying?
Like, I'm not going to show up working with heavy machinery,
wearing flowy clothing and dangly earrings.

(54:40):
But, you know, if I show up to do that and I have eyeliner on
and I have my nails done and I'mwearing, you know, safe for
work. But like femme cut outfit or
queer looking outfit or in colors that are, would you even
have queerness in a world like that that even be a concept?

(55:04):
Is that a good thing? Is it?
Is it a good thing if there's noconcept of of queerness in our
world? I don't know.
I can't answer that. Question.
I think it's you. Go ahead, Freya.
Oh, I was going to say it too. I think even like you said about
like roles, you know, going beyond even just the gendered
aspect of it is just, you know, like the expectation to have

(55:27):
roles in general, like the idea of like parenting, you know,
like, like, I think, you know, because of like social things,
constructs and like, you know, these very specific ideas of
roles that parents are supposed to play, right.
And I think a lot of people, I think a lot of people end up
being her in life because they're, you know, parents can't
live up to that. When you know, it's like, it's
like your parent isn't like thisholy role, like, you know, your
parent isn't, you know, whateverthat's supposed to be.

(55:49):
They're just two people that having to fuck and produce to
you, you know, like it's not, you know what I mean?
I think that's the problem with a lot of these roles is they do
put too much of A, you know, thing on something like, you
know, like you said, doctors, you know, it's like we, we have
this notions of roles and professional things and then,
you know, you can't be anything outside of that.
And, you know, like he said, youhave to embody certain things.

(56:10):
And it's like, you know, everyone needs to fit within
that, you know, like, like, like, why do our doctors all
have to like, have a certain look?
You know what I mean? Like, there's no reason.
Yeah. Like I said, just beyond
everything, I think roles in themselves are very confining.
Like, you know, I mean, you're right, they do have their spot,
but we have to, you know, you said you have to like what?
Where's the draw the line behindwhat's practical and what's just

(56:32):
arbitrary confining? I guess Milo, what do you think?
God, I, you know, the first thing I have to say is like, you
know, it's always such a delicate topic because, you
know, it's the sort of thing that a lot of a lot of turfs

(56:53):
like claim to be gender abolitionists when I mean truly
they're not. If you actually like talk to
them for five fucking seconds. It's just like a position they
take to sort of claim that transwomen are misogynistic or
whatever it might be. So already like the idea of
gender abolition already like has a sort of stink to it.

(57:14):
Unfortunately for me, I, I, I mean, I've had this conversation
before of, you know, when, if there was true gender abolition,
what would being trans look like?
Because we still understand, youknow, transness to have not to

(57:36):
be bio essentialist, but some kind of neurobiological
underpinnings, right? Like, you know, at the age of
fours when children to possess the idea of what gender they are
and there has to be something tothat.
And it's not simply, oh, I like dresses and that's why I'm
trans. To me, I mean, what what I think

(57:59):
is with gender abolition that trans, this might just look
quite different. I think there would be probably
less, less surgery, less hormonepeople like that.
I think gender dysphoria might be less common.
I think that's also again I. Was in a world of, you know,
because that's the one like, youknow what, what does it mean to

(58:20):
be you know? Well, I think the answer is to
me, it's yes. I mean, I'm, I, I I feel like I,
I mean, this is like me giving my hot scientific takes is not a
scientist. I just I've always felt like
like, you know, people be like, oh, you think you're a woman
because you like dresses and makeup and I'm like, no, I think

(58:45):
that that's how I present because my brain associates me
with women. I do that so that I to affirm
myself to the world, which everyone does, not just trans
people, everyone does. I mean, I sort of always felt
that it was something, especially because of the age of

(59:06):
4. You, you're like, oh, I know
gender. I am.
Even if they're trans, a lot of the time, not all the time, some
of the time, I think that it's more like some animalistic thing
where, you know, animals know, oh, this is me.
I'm one of these, you know what I mean?
And I think for trans people, it's more the same thing.
And the reason any of the, the gender expression is, is you're

(59:28):
just reflecting what the world says.
That thing is, you know, it. I, I think a lot of people, I, I
think a lot of people, what's the word I'm looking for?
Put the, put the cart before thehorse in this.
And I, I, I think the way I justdescribed it is probably more of
the way it works. So I don't think gender
abolition wouldn't make trans people disappear as much as that

(59:52):
would, you know, make turfs super fucking happy.
I feel, you know, when I think about when I think about my
youth, I think about how like I just resonated.
But I just felt constantly like I'd look at the group of like
masculinity, the guys and I'd just be like, yeah, I just
don't, you know, don't get it. Like I just never felt.
I just, I saw, I just saw the girls and I was like, but I wish

(01:00:14):
I could play, but they wouldn't let me because I look, I look
like a boy. And I was like, well, I said
well, this, that's why why don'tyou let me play?
And they're like, what? Never mind.
And I'm like no, but listen likeI like.
I'm also a pretend teacher too because they always pretend to
teach and I'd be like I'm I'm a teacher too and they were like
no. I actually, I had this, this is
like when I was having my gendercrisis, whatever how many years,

(01:00:38):
goddamn years ago that was. And and This is why I feel the
way I do about this is because, you know, when I was doubting
myself because I questioned everything about myself, I'm
always like, am I? Am I?
Am I believing what I am my overthinking and therefore
believing something like I, I, there's like all these layers of
nonsense because I'm just neurotic.

(01:01:01):
And, you know, I was talking to this therapist and I was like, I
don't, I don't know. I don't.
What if I just like, what if I'mnot trans?
What if I just like make up dresses?
And she told me to do something that absolutely fucking worked
where she was like, OK, so here's what you do.
You don't make yourself up your face, your hair and knee of it.

(01:01:24):
So you just facially appear male, put on a dress, then make
your face, your whatever as feminine as possible and put on
men's clothes. And I preferred the men's
clothes as long as I looked likea woman.
It had nothing to do with the fucking clothes.

(01:01:44):
Oh my God, I swear to God, I started transitioning.
I swear to God, like AT shirt and jeans, I was like, you know,
like I feel like I'm reverting back to men's clothes because
except for like it's the women'sstyle because they ride up and I
like that women's clothes because they got they don't do
that. But I felt that way like as I
transitioned, I felt that like Ididn't have to try like as much

(01:02:05):
as I tried to be masculine, likeI, I had to try to do that for
like femininity. To me, it just felt like it
radiated for me. So I didn't feel like I had to
try to do that. And by doing that, it, it
allowed me to feel more comfortable within allowing
myself to experience masculinitywithin myself because I didn't
feel threatened, like I would lose that because I just felt so
rooted in that femininity. And I, and I just, and I feel so

(01:02:28):
restricted, like just with labels and terms because like I
just feel so expansive in myself.
And so, and I, and I felt for solong that before I transitioned,
I, I had to be a certain way. I had to be a, a man.
And then as I started transitioning, I, I got it.
And I had this idea of like how I supposed to be as a trans
woman. And after a while I realized

(01:02:49):
that I was like trying to be like a CIS woman and I wasn't
even trying to be like myself. And so then it, it dawned on me
that like, I was still so like engulfed in these these terms
and ways of being that I just didn't allow myself to just
experience the joy of self discovery in ways that I get
turned, you know? This is why trans people were

(01:03:09):
seen as as priests and and goddesses and gods and and all
that. I just, I want to just point
that out. I was gonna say at the close, I
was gonna say at the close too. Like I kind of like, because for
me, like I still have a lot of like, you know, a lot of stuff I
still like is, you know, still what people consider like
masculine shifts. So I kind of like, you know,

(01:03:33):
being able to toy with a bit of both.
Like, you know, I do most of my stuff.
I'm very high fem, but I'd like,you know, I throw in like
accessories or other things that, you know, people would see
as, you know, more masculine. And I kind of like how they play
off of each other. And I think one of the things
too is actually like, like the time I'm close to is like when I
was a guy, I didn't, you know, Inever felt inspired, you know, I
was just kind of dressed boring when I was presenting as a guy

(01:03:54):
and just, you know, like I had some stuff.
But you know, I mean like it wasn't anything exciting.
Whereas a woman, you know, it's like I felt free to be more
exciting with clothes and also being trans.
Like I figured no matter what, people are looking at me weird
and judging me so I can wear theweird shit that I want.
You know, I can wear like ridiculous stuff that, you know,
like go to office or everything and you're like that People are
judging me anyway, so why not? You do the weird, you can do the

(01:04:17):
weird shit too because it's pretty gone.
The second you cross that genderline.
It's like this monogamy. Does that make sense anymore?
Is that like, is that a line we're going to cross?
Like, what else? What lines are we crossing?
Society's all made-up. Fuck it all.
This is transgressive. Is like bizarre to me.
I mean. That's what.

(01:04:37):
Monogamy is a pillar of is a pillar of capitalist supremacy
being upheld. And so like, yeah.
Yeah, I mean, this is what with the transgressing thing.
It's it's my problem with transphobic cisgender gay men
where I'm just like, or gay men or women where I'm just like,
you understand that you're transgressing gender norms,

(01:05:00):
right? Like you understand that like in
this hetero patriarchy, whateverwoman serves man, man above
woman, man dominate woman, womanbe submissive, you are
transgressing that you are transgressing gender.
And you don't even realize that it's not just because you, you

(01:05:24):
might, you know, do drag or whatever.
Your literal relationship transgresses the gender
hierarchy even within, you know,in, in, in the Bible, the Bible,
you know, it's not so much the it's not so much the ACT itself

(01:05:45):
that the Bible has a problem with.
It's that you're up turning where a man should be on top and
putting him on the bottom. And that's why I like sis had
people love to like go up to a queer couple and go which one of
you is the man and which one of you is the woman?
And you're like, that doesn't really apply in our situation

(01:06:07):
because we don't have a relationship based on that
hierarchy. And then?
That's sad. No, they look at you all weird
and you're like. So I was going to say that said
like I'm in a relationship with a sis woman.
And if you'll ask that, I mean, she's the man and the woman,

(01:06:27):
like we make it pretty clear because she like she's she's
very like mask and yeah, so. I still like, just trust me.
She's like in a clear context actually.
Is that me something? Be honest, that's one of the
things like I actually like whatmy wife is says she does.

(01:06:48):
She very much like kind of transcends that too.
Like she, she's a CIS woman, butshe kind of like, she does like
both like really high fem stuff.You'll see her like crazy fancy
dresses, elaborate makeup and then in like, you know, her
construction stuff, like all on the same day and like she's gone
all over the place. I like that.
Like I like that, you know, as atrans woman, I kind of like
that. Like she, I know a lot of people

(01:07:10):
don't like the term tomboy anymore, I've heard, but that's
like something that's the term she grew up with.
That's what she always called herself and that's what she, you
know, and, and yeah, it's something I've always liked,
like I've always kind of liked women that transgress that
thing, you know, or more that are more, I, I guess more for,
you know, that that are like affirmative and brash.

(01:07:31):
Like she always kind of says like, like she, you know, the
stuff that she gets insulted foras being a woman, like feel
like, oh, you're being a bitch. You're being too trolley
embossing. It's like if she was a man,
nobody would have any issue withthat.
They'd be like, oh, you're sort of, you're a boss, you're in
charge and. When I was a kid, when I tell
people the use of tomboy, I would do I do masculine things

(01:07:53):
with my friends in the last few years and I would look and be
like they say I was like a tomboy and I was a kid because
that's not acknowledging that I was very feminine.
But I grew up as, you know, presenting.
So, you know, and I that was another thing with my
transition, like because I neverfelt at odds with my body.
I just felt like I was not what I had seen the boys.

(01:08:13):
Like I saw them and I was like, yeah.
Well, that like, OK, just because like we share some
things doesn't mean that's like.Yeah, I always like those
fuckers. I felt like in my head, I don't
know if this is arrogant to say,but I kind of felt like superior
in the sense of men. Not in the superior sense, but
like in the sense that like, I just could not like we were on a
different level. Like I didn't, I could not

(01:08:34):
think. Like, that's probably why I like
that song by Beyoncé. If I was a boy, because I was
like, if I were a boy, what would I?
What would I think? You know, because I just
couldn't. Yeah, I get that.
I again like always being because like, like I'm, I'm like
6-4, I'm 200 and like 60 lbs like I'm solid built and as the

(01:08:55):
people always expect me to be like, you know, more masculine
dominant. I never understood like the
dynamics like with men growing up, I didn't get all their weird
little like their constant pissing contests and stuff like
that. And I think that I think that
threw people off because, you know, people were expecting me
to be like that and you know, like I did, you know, I guess I
like doing martial arts and stuff, things like that.
So it's like, I enjoy all the things that are, like, typically
associated with, like, masculine, but I'm just not, you

(01:09:17):
know, like I said, just didn't get the pissing contest.
I didn't get, you know, I alwaysjust felt way more comfortable
around women. Yeah.
Yeah, I, I remember, I just, I remember, I think it was like I
was maybe like four or five and in nursery school.
And I, it's, it's like one of myearliest memories of like the

(01:09:39):
day it used to be that, you know, the boys and the girls
played house in the, like, housearea, right.
And then there like came a day when all the boys realized that
they were boys and they're supposed to be separate from the
girls and be doing something else.
And I, I remember that so distinctly of like being like,

(01:10:04):
oh, aren't we playing house? And all the boys being like, no,
that's girl stuff. And I was like, and it wasn't
that I was like this big fan of house by any means.
I'm not saying that I you know, I'm not saying that oh cuz I'm a
girl, therefore most like House.What bothered me was that I was

(01:10:25):
no longer playing with the girlsand was like separated and told
that I'm not them and I'm this other thing.
It had nothing to do with the activity that that you know each
active. I don't remember what the boys
were doing but like both activities were fine by me.
It was just that I had been segregated to a side that I did

(01:10:47):
not feel I belong to. Yeah, no, I get that.
Yeah, Oh my God, I really enjoyed.
I really enjoyed this time. You know, I just want to, I just
want to say before we go, that I, I, I want to thank our
audience for being here, listening week after week,
tuning in, giving us your time, your attention and your energy.
If you want to be on the podcastand Share your story, please

(01:11:09):
e-mail us at transnarrativepodcast@gmail.com.
That's transnarrativepodcast@gmail.com
or yes, that would be wonderful.And so I sorry, I was, I thought
I was going to say something else.
I want to thank Fox. Thank you for being here.
Thank you for giving us your time today.

(01:11:30):
I've really enjoyed your presence, Freya or I'm sorry,
Freya, thank you so much for being here today.
I really appreciate you giving us your time and thank you for
being here. Marla Marla thing, I love having
you here. I love watching your Tik toks.
I'm so glad you're here again. I'm giving finger guns for

(01:11:51):
anyone who's if you, if you're not, if you're not, watched, if
you're just. Listening and again, thank you
audience for being here. So before we go, I would like to
ask each of you one final question and it's the it's the
most important one. No.
Do you like Pickles? Do you like Pickles, Marla?

(01:12:14):
I had OK yes duh I literally just a pride the other day at a
Long Island pride at a very goodCajun pickle on a stick.
It was very good. I also I don't know if it
counts, does it have to be cucumber?
I ferment my own Pickles. Pickles are everything.

(01:12:35):
We Americans only call coupon orPickles Pickles because we're
lazy. I ferment my own fruited hot
sauces and I currently have a nectarine and apricot 1 going
and I have never had this much fermentation before.
It is like not slightly more. It is an incredible amount more
fermentation and it won't stop and I'm pushing it.

(01:12:58):
I'm just like do I stop it now or do I see how far I can take
this and maybe ruin it? But I think, I think like, I'll
give it to like tomorrow and then I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll,
I'll blend it and add vinegar soit stops fermenting.

(01:13:19):
I that was such a random, like impulsive thought, but that's
such, that's so great that it actually had relevance to that.
I love Yeah for you. Do you like Pickles?
No, that's not my question. Actually my question.
Yes, I do. Fox, do you like Pickles?
I just have to ask everybody nowyou're.
Muted. I love Pickles so much and I do

(01:13:43):
I make my own ferments as well. Yay, yay.
That's something we were one outfor not doing.
Well, should I have some? Sauerkrauts.
I love sauerkraut. So good.
I always hated it because it waslike this sugary stuff out of
the jar that you'd get at the grocery store.
And then I made my own and I waslike, oh, this is fantastic.

(01:14:07):
I love that that's we should have an episode just about
Pickles. Thank you all so much for being
here. As we depart, I'm going to ask
one final question. And when the one finished, just
so Marla, what does liberation mean to you?
And on top of that, what is the message that you would like to
leave our audience with as we carry out to this week?

(01:14:29):
What a simple quick question to leave us off on and sign out on.
I know. And that's going to, I'm going
to ask that to both of you, Fox and Freyas, they get prepared.
You don't. Sorry.
Oh good God, what does the meration look like to me?
I just want to be left the fuck alone.
Just like leave me the fuck alone.
Like it's that simple. Like you don't have to believe

(01:14:51):
I'm a woman. Leave that shit in your brain.
Leave that shit in your own life.
Stay out of my medicine, stay out of me.
You know, I put up with I don't believe in in Jesus, but I put
up with Christians in the publicsphere.
So leave me the hell alone. I will leave you the hell alone.

(01:15:14):
Yes. Yeah, she got it, got it right
there. That's that's suggest stuff
stuff. Yeah, oh gosh.
Burn the American Empire. What says you?
What's your what's, what's liberation mean to you?
And what's your message you'd like to leave our audience with?

(01:15:35):
I think trans liberation for me,it's just being able to show up
in any space and being just taken seriously as a person and
as a professional. I know a loaded term again, but
you know, I we didn't really touch on this, but I run my own
businesses, media businesses, arts businesses, and you know,

(01:15:56):
I'll go to networking events andbe like, here's my business,
here's what I do. And you can tell right away when
somebody's just like, I'm uncomfortable even having a
conversation with you. That shit, just just leave it.
We're all human beings. We're all doing a job.
The fact that you are worried about the gender role that I'm

(01:16:19):
playing when I'm trying to talk to you about how to, you know,
shoot and write ads for your business is a big time you
problem, not a me problem. And you should keep it AU
problem and also like pay us. Don't be weird about it.
Just like give give this thing Ilike to say about queer

(01:16:43):
communities broadly and trans trans community specifically.
There is so much talent that is fucking languishing because
everybody's like, oh, I'm kind of uncomfortable about hiring a
trans person. Like the saddest part for me
about that is that like, think of all the things we're missing
out on because people are like, no, I don't want to talk.

(01:17:06):
Makes me kind of feel icky. Just like, leave that, leave it,
leave all that shit at the door.We are all human beings.
We all have skills. Some of us are amazing.
Let us do our jobs, pay us. That's.
Right. I love that.
Freya, you're going to end the show for us.
What's? It's fine, OK, I don't know
what's the. Message you'd like to leave for
us. I mean, I guess kind of roughing

(01:17:28):
off that stuff, it's, I mean, really, Oh my God, I'm really on
the spot here. You have had the two people that
got to go before you. OK, fine.
All right, so, yeah, I mean, actually if you want to talk
about like, like creative stuff,it's just, you know, what
fucking people be like. I think like people are, you
know, I think we're going to getthe most interesting growth and

(01:17:51):
stuff from humanity by letting people be like, I think by, you
know, like I think of the thing with like there's always many
variations on human beings. Like, you know, like there are
infinite possibilities in the universe.
So of course there's always gonna be people that don't fit
the thing. And I think for humanity needs
that like the only way we can ever expand or ever be greater
is, you know, by breaking boundaries, you know,
transgressing things and discovering new aspects to

(01:18:14):
ourselves. And, you know, I think anyone
that's, you know, anyone that's trying to stick to like, you
know, like, like putting too many rules on things, too many
roles is going to 'cause you know, that causes nothing of
stagnation. You know, like, like, to me,
it's always been like, you know,what's the purpose?
You know, when people are like, here's, you know, like, what's
the purpose? And you have everybody having a
middle American Christian lifestyle, Like what?

(01:18:36):
At the end of the, at the end ofthe day, what the hell is that
going to accomplish? You know, we're just going to
get stuck in the same thing and you're going to go nowhere.

(01:19:25):
None.

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Marla Alpert | Freja Ki Gray | Foxx Cant : Queer Art, Systemic Constraint & Literary Resistance

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Marla Alpert | Freja Ki Gray | Foxx Cant : Queer Art, Systemic Constraint & Literary Resistance