Mary Almy : Reclaiming faith, humanizing identity, and turning pain into purpose

On this episode, Caroline is joined by guest cohosts Alicia Mullins and Jenna Daugherty as they meet Mary Almy, a resilient and radiant trans woman whose story weaves together themes of faith, identity, and radical hope. Mary shares her powerful journey growing up in a conservative Christian environment, enduring rejection, self-harm, and suicidal ideation before discovering a path of healing through transition, advocacy, and community. Her story moves from the U.S. to Africa, from military and missionary work to life-affirming moments of self-realization and survival—including harrowing encounters with crocodiles and venomous snakes during her darkest hours.

The episode dives deep into the intersection of queerness and Christianity, with heartfelt reflections on how Mary and others are reclaiming faith from the clutches of bigotry. Together, the group challenges the narrative that Christianity and queerness are incompatible, with moving testimonies from Mary about her Presbyterian congregation, and from Alicia and Jenna about their own transformative journeys. The conversation turns toward the power of storytelling—especially through Mary’s forthcoming documentary—and how media can shift perceptions, bridge divides, and humanize trans lives across generational and ideological lines.

In a time marked by anti-trans legislation and rising fascism, this episode is a fierce call to love, empathy, and action. From embracing visibility to uplifting trans youth and elders alike, Mary and the team offer a vision rooted in hope, grace, and the belief that compassion can dismantle hate.

“ Mary Transitioned latter in life although she knew that she was different and that she was a girl from the age of 5. Growing up in the 60’s and 70’s information about transgender was hard to find for a young girl living in a small town in Western Pa. Her life’s journey included time as a Military Police Officer, a civilian Law enforcement Officer and a Mission Co-worker serving for 14 years in Africa. Mary Is married to an ordained minister of the PCUSA (Presbyterian Church USA). They have been married for 40 years, her wife is one of her staunchest supporters and cheer leader. Since her Transition Mary has been active in a variety of organizations and has worked as a big sister for other Transgender women and their spouses.  Mary was awarded the BULGQA (Bloomsburg University Lesbian, Gay, Queer Alliance) 2018 Community Advocacy award. Mary is a strong advocate for the Transgender community where she has worked as a peer mentor, educational speaker and on various boards and Transgender organizations, she is currently serving on the board of the Rainbow rose Center, York County’s LGBTQIA Support organization. Mary is also a Transgender Woman of faith, whose desire is to build bridges and heal hurts between the LGBT community especially the Transgender community and the Church. Mary is currently living in south central Pa. with her wife, dog and two cats.“

**

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Well, hi, everyone. Welcome back to the Trans
Narrative Podcast. I'm Caroline, and it's so good
to be here today with you. And I am joined by a multitude
of wonderful people and returning from multiple seasons.
It's Jenna Doherty. Hello skis, how are you?

(00:21):
It's. I'm so good.
It's so good to have you back. It's great to be back.
We, we need this now more than ever, you know, So it's, it's
good that we're still keeping this going.
Yes, absolutely. And also returning from multiple
seasons and from one of our highest ranking episodes, it's
Alicia Mullins. Hi, I'm so glad to be back.

(00:44):
Thank you for having me. How are you today, Caroline?
I'm so good. It's so good to have you.
Thanks for being here. Thanks for being here both of
you. Happy to be here.
No problem. Absolutely.
And today, we're joined by Mary Almay.
Thank you. It is a blessing and an honor to
be here today. Thank you.
Yes. So before we get started, a

(01:05):
little bit about Mary. Mary, a trans woman of faith,
transitioned later in life afterknowing she was different from
age 5. Raised in rural western
Pennsylvania in the 1960s and 70s, she found limited resources
and understanding. Her journey includes serving as
a military police officer, civilian law enforcement officer

(01:26):
and a mission Co worker in Africa for 14 years.
And today, she joins us. Yes, Mary, thank you so much for
being here. Again, thank you very much for
having me. And welcome back to the Trans

(01:49):
Narrative podcast. Today we are joined by Mary
Almi. Mary, tell us a little bit about
yourself. Thank you.
Thank you for having me. I think my story is very similar
to a lot of trans people's stories.
I also think I have some very unique parts of my life.
I, I knew I was trans when I wasa young girl and I keep saying

(02:13):
girl because I don't like using the background.
So when I wouldn't say young, I mean I was five years old and I
knew. But I was raised in the 60s and
70s and I was raised in a very strict church based family.
I won't say they were evangelical per SE, but they
were certainly fundamentalist. And so it was very hard for me.

(02:35):
And in the 60s, it was, I grew up in a small town in western
Pennsylvania and it was a steel town.
It was, I don't want to say a poor town, but it was certainly
was lower middle class if it wasthat.
And so there was very little resources I put in anything.

(02:56):
So the more I Crest that I was agirl, the more my family pushed
back. There were beatings, there were
all kinds of punishments. I remember, yeah, I remember one
time when my mother caught me, dressed and hit me so hard with
the belt that she brought blood to the area that she hit.

(03:20):
And I'm saying that, but I also think I need to focus that for
everybody is that in that time and in that generation, my
parent, my parents were depression, World War 2, that
area, that's what they grew up in.
So what they were doing was trying to help me in their
mindset now wasn't helpful at all, but that's where they were

(03:44):
coming from. They thought they were being
loving and caring parents. So I do want to say that because
I do not have any animosity, I, I kind of had a good life
growing up, except that I was beaten up every day and I was
denied who I was. I tried to hide it.
And after being beaten one time so bad that I had to go to the

(04:05):
hospital and my parents, my dad especially, told me that they
didn't have any. I hate to use this word, but
it's the F word but the faggot in his family.
And I realized then that I either needed to adapt or I was
going to get hurt all the time. So I went from the extreme to

(04:27):
being very feminine, playing with the girls in the
neighborhood, playing with dolls, dressing up as much as I
could to being as macho as I thought macho boys were.
So I got into fights I intended to, I used to carry a bayonet in
my in my belt. So we use that.

(04:49):
And it was, it was just some really rough times growing up
that then and that's when I I joined.
I also then because of the stress of trying to be, but
society wanted me to be excuse me and trying to be true to who
I was because I was always dressing up underneath.

(05:09):
I was always dealing my mother'sclothes or going to Woolworths
at the time and stealing clothesout of there.
And that, that caught me that that pressure got to me.
So I just became very self harming.
I'm, I remember one time I was sitting in the bathtub and I
took a butcher knife trying to cut my extremity off.

(05:33):
And then by the time I cut myself the first time, I was
bleeding so bad. It hurt so bad.
I couldn't do it, which is probably a good thing, but so I
went and I tried to be this boy that everybody expected me to
be. And so like I said, it was a
church. So I went to the church one day
and I tried to talk to my pastorabout it because I was trying to

(05:56):
seek help because, like I said, I was hurting myself.
And my pastor's response was that I was possessed by a demon
and I needed to pray it out and to pray it away.
And because of that, I was also interesting enough.
I was a member of the youth group at the time, and I was the

(06:16):
president of the youth group. But when I talked to my pastor,
he told me I could no longer be the president or an officer in
the youth group, that I could still come, but I couldn't hold
any position in the group. I went home and I prayed for God
to take this away. As we all know those kind of

(06:37):
prayers don't work. So I thought, OK, well, maybe
God since a lot of people, this was the 60s and 70s, a lot of
people don't believe you in anymore and people think you're
dead. So I started to pray and say,
God, if you change me into a woman or a girl overnight, it
would be a miracle and everybodywould believe you.

(06:57):
You know that didn't happen either.
So my next thought was my life wasn't worth living.
I did try to hurt myself. I thought maybe getting into the
most masculine, dangerous positions I could get into would
help. So I joined the military and

(07:18):
became military police officer, and that didn't help.
I got out with a civilian policeofficer and was on SWAT teams
and undercover narcotics teams. And I would go into the bars and
fights without backup because I wanted to get hurt.
I wanted to be. I wanted something to happen to
me that didn't happen. What did happen was in all of

(07:42):
this, I ended up marrying a woman I met who happened to be a
minister and she was the first person I ever told about my
story. And we were on a date and we
came back and I don't know why. To this day I don't know why.

(08:02):
To this day I think I tell everybody I had diarrhea of the
mouth. We had had a few drinks and I
think I was just. So I sat her down and I told
her. I said I have something to tell
you. And at the time again I didn't
know what trans meant. I didn't know.
I just knew how I felt and I just knew what made me feel good
about myself. So I told her.

(08:26):
I said I dress up as a woman sometimes and she said OK and
that was the end of it. I went home that night and I
thought I had ruined my life because all she had to do is
call my chief of police and tellthat story and I would have been

(08:46):
fired. That didn't happen.
We talked it over and she was OK.
In fact, she was even supportive.
She would let me dress in front of her and but didn't want me to
dress going outside, which wasn't a problem back then
because I was too afraid to do that.
We went overseas because she joined me.

(09:09):
We became missionaries. I've been working in law
enforcement at the time and she had two churches and she had,
she wanted to go to mission work.
So we went over to Africa where I was there for 14 years.
I, we, we were stationed in a very fundamental Muslim country
at the time. The country were involved in,

(09:30):
was involved in the civil war. I took it and I thought by going
there and being there things would get better and I thought I
could get away with it and it worked.
For the first year I didn't havetoo many, I wasn't struggling
too hard. But by the 2nd year I was going
insane, not being able to be myself, be true to myself.

(09:54):
So we stayed and I just didn't know what I was going to do.
I was just really started getting really depressed again.
And after a couple years when wewere back here for a visit, we

(10:15):
decided if we brought some of myclothes back with me, I could
dress up in the house. Which was an insanely dangerous,
crazy thing to do because, like I said, we were in a
fundamentalist country and we were missionaries, and the
security police would randomly make raids on our houses to make

(10:39):
sure we weren't doing anything to, you know, try to convert
Muslims or doing anything like that.
So if they would have walked in on me and I would have been
dressed, it was against their laws and punishable by death.
The fact that I was a white missionary, the fact that I was
doing this, there's no doubt in my mind what would have

(11:02):
happened. But that's what I was doing.
And I started becoming very suicidal.
I wanted to hurt myself very badly, but I didn't want to hurt
myself and make it look like a suicide because I didn't want to
do anything to embarrass or hurtmy wife.
So I said to myself, what if it was an accident?

(11:26):
So where we were, there were a lot of poisonous snakes.
And I like snakes anyway, so if I saw one, I would chase after
it and try to catch it and let it bite me.
And where we were, there was no medical facilities.
I was a lot of times I was down in the southern part of the
country where there was absolutely no medical
infrastructure. So if I would have gotten bit, I

(11:50):
would have died. And the one time I can remember,
I chased the king cobra into a pile of wood and I had it by its
tail and it was so long I was pulling on its tail trying to
get out of the wood pile, and its head had come up in the
middle of the wood pile. So there I am, and the snake is
looking at me and I'm trying to yank its tail.

(12:13):
Couldn't do it, of course, because it was too far in.
It was too strong or wrapped around.
And he couldn't strike me because he couldn't get that
far. So I think we were both
frustrated. I think he really wanted to bite
me, but he couldn't. So that was that time.
The other one that started to change things for me, we did a
lot of work along the Nile Riverand the southern, the Southern

(12:40):
Sudan. The Sudan was where I was
stationed, and in Southern Sudanand Nile River runs through
swamps, and there was crocodiles, notorious crocodiles
are everywhere. And they were notorious for
coming up, like for when women and small children were going
down the river to get water, they would lay in the shallows
and when they would walk out to get the water, the crocodile
would come up and grab them, drag them under, and that would

(13:02):
be how they did that. And they were notorious for
following us in our boats as we went downriver.
And I decided one day just to roll out of the boat because
there was four of them followingus.
And I figured I'd roll out of the boat, fall into the water
and the crocodiles would get me.Well, I rolled over the side of

(13:26):
the boat, fell into the water and I went under.
And I can remember saying, I'm, I'm sorry, Betsy, my wife's
name. And I said, but this is better.
And as I came up out of the water, you know, you bobbed down
and you can come back up, right?And as I came up, grabbed a
breath of air. I looked around trying to figure

(13:46):
out why I hadn't been grabbed bya crocodile yet.
And I saw those 4 crocodiles going out and you could, they
were swimming so fast away, theywere making little ripples and
they were swimming away from where I fell in.
And that time some people grabbed me and by that time
people grabbed me and pulled me into the back of the boat and
that, and that's how that happened.

(14:07):
And it was at that time also that I started doing some work
online and it was in the, oh, let's see, it was probably in
the mid 90s. I guess it was, and we had just
gotten the Internet in Sudan andI was scrolling to do some work
and I typed in Transforming Faith.

(14:30):
And back in the day, you know, if you don't type in what you're
really looking for and you don'tknow what you're looking for,
you get up. All kinds of things respond to
transforming, right? So one of the pages that came up
was Susan's Place. I don't know if you ever heard
of it. It's a transgender site.
And I looked at that and I started scrolling through that

(14:53):
and I just started crying ugly tears because I finally saw
people like me. And they had hockey, you know,
they had chat rooms. And I was listening and reading
people like me talking about their lives and talking about

(15:14):
what they were doing. And I just, I just started
bawling and Betsy came in the room and she said, what's wrong?
And I said, this is me. And we talked and she looked at
the site with me and we talked. And I know people don't like to
hear this, but God does work in mysterious ways.

(15:38):
One of the people in the chat room was a girl from Pittsburgh
where I grew up, nearby where I grew up.
And her wife was supportive of her.
So I'm talking to her and of course she's telling me that I
needed to dress and go out and I'd be safe and all this stuff,

(15:59):
not knowing where I live becauseI couldn't even type that in
case it got seen. And I just kept saying that's
never going to happen. And finally I told her.
I said I was working overseas and it was not safe.
And she suggested come home and then we could meet her.
So we were going home on vacation and we did meet her and
she told me about her and her wife met with Betsy and I and I,

(16:23):
we talked, I talked a lot. And so she told me about a place
where I could get some therapy and I went to it.
We were home for 30 days and I went to it.
And I met this woman who was working for the Prasad Center in
Pittsburgh, and her name was Judith.

(16:43):
And she started talking with me.But I'm still going overseas.
I'm going back overseas in like 10 days.
So it was like, yeah, I have allthis great help, but now I'm
going back where I have to push it down.
And she agreed to me talk with me online, which at the time
wasn't allowed, but she agreed to do it because of my

(17:04):
situation. And it was like, I'd have these
moments when I come back. We were there for six more
years. I'd have these moments when I
came back and I could be myself,but then I have to put it back
in a box and go and pretend I was somebody else and finally

(17:27):
got to the point where I couldn't do it.
And so we decided to come back home and get me the help I
needed. By that time, I was in my early
50s and we came back home from Betsy, go to church, and I
started getting therapy on a regular basis.

(17:48):
And I'll never forget because I kept saying to my therapist, I
can't be transgender. It has to be something else.
And she would look at me and she'd always used to pour
glasses down, like, kind of likewhat I'm doing right now.
If you look over her glasses at me and she'll say, yes, you are.
Do you think a man would do whatyou're doing?

(18:10):
And I would say, well, no, not really.
It's me. It's who I am, right.
So we decided that I needed to transition.
And I came home after that meeting with my therapist today,
we decided I needed to make the move.
And I told her to Betsy. And all Betsy did was she looked

(18:30):
at me and she goes, well, it hastaken you long enough.
And, and I said, what do you mean?
She goes, yes, you need to transition.
You should have done it a long time ago.
And so that was the process. And that started my process of
transitioning. And I can say that I am much,
much, much, much, much, much, much, much much happier than

(18:51):
I've ever been. It's not been easy.
When I first came out, I told you Betsy had a congregation in
a church. So as the pastor spouse, I had
to tell the church as well. And that was a disaster.
Here was that. Huh.
What year was this that you cameout in?

(19:14):
OK. I came out in 2011, so it was
from. We went overseas from 1996.
We came back in 2008 and it was from there that took me that
long to make the decision. Anyway, we called the church and
the first Sunday we told him. Everybody came up after church

(19:35):
and hugged me and said oh we love you, you should never.
I told him about the suicide attempt.
I told him everything and it wasvery affirming.
The next day, a petition startedcoming around to get rid of
Betsy. Oh wow.
They were calling me a child molester.
They were calling me a demon. I had been working with the

(19:59):
youth. And, and it's funny part about
all of this is the week before Icame out, they had the
celebration of Betsy's time there.
I sang how great of a pastor shewas and how great I was with the
kids and the how they loved having us both there.
The following Sunday that all turned around and they hated us
to the point where during the process, I was coming into the

(20:21):
church one day and there was another couple members of
session in the parking lot, which was gravel.
One of them picked up stones andliterally threw them at me and
told me I needed to leave. Betsy lost a job.
Long story short, I lost a job Iwas working with, which was with
a church organization, and it took us five years to find work.

(20:45):
Betsy couldn't find a church andI was, I mean, I was really
struggling. Western Pennsylvania can be
very, very, very, very conservative.
And in being the age I was when I started the transition that I
didn't really quote UN quote past.
And I hate that word too, but itwas just really difficult.

(21:11):
We finally found a church. Betsy finally got one after a
long time, and we came back and was up in Pennsylvania.
And then she decided she wanted to be a chaplain.
So we moved again and we're now down in central PA and things
are going fine. I started becoming an advocate.
I had been hurt so bad, I had been through so much that I

(21:34):
didn't want anybody else have tosuffer.
And I thought, yes, my job now needs to be out there and let
people know. And one of my first Pride events
was in Albany, NY, and I remember walking with this young
trans girl, must have been in her early teens.

(21:56):
And when she came to the event, she came to where the LGBTQ
center had their tent and she went in and changed because she
came in her own terrier. And when she came out, you could
just see the beam and smile on her face.
It was amazing. And she was all excited walking

(22:16):
in the parade and she was strutting her stuff.
And God bless her, she was doingthis parade in heels.
But we turned up in and we came to where a local church was, and
it had the signs. God hates fags.
You're rotting in hell and all the garbage that all of us have
always seen. And this poor girl stopped dead

(22:39):
in her tracks. The smile on her face went away
and she started shaking and crying.
And I went over to her and I putmy arms around and I said,
honey, you're OK. Nobody's going to hurt you.
You're safe. And she goes, that's not it.
She goes, my parents are Baptistand they're telling me I'm going
to rot in hell. And now this church is telling

(23:01):
me I'm going to rot. And then she starts saying I'm
going to rot in hell. And I said to her, I said, no,
you're not. I said, because we watched when
you walked to trade, you're going to see there are some
churches here supporting us. I said, and I have a wife who
happens to be a minister that will sit here and and stand
beside you and tell anybody thatyou're loved and you're a good

(23:23):
child and you're you're not, Godloves you.
But that was one of my happier moments.
Then I got to start working withyounger kids and in the church
we were at the school district there didn't have any Gsas or
anything. So a lot of the queer kids
didn't have a place to go. So they came to me because I was

(23:44):
out in the community. This is where I got my award
from the university. And they, they, they said, can
you help us? So I went to Betsy and we opened
up the church and the kid would come and meet in the church.
And I'm telling you that the care that they showed for us, I
mean, I was just there as a sponsor, but the kids

(24:04):
interacting with each other, The111 girl came in and she didn't
have any clothes. And she and the other girls
there were giving her clothes. And you know, I mean, even
cisgender girls who were just coming to to be supportive.
It was just amazing. But then we moved and we came
down here. And that's kind of when Cheryl

(24:25):
came into play. I had been working with the
local Rainbow Rose Center, as you mentioned, and doing.
We're still keeping my advocacy working because I still believe
in that. And I get this phone call.
Was it Cheryl or was it an e-mail?
I think it was an e-mail. OK, I get this e-mail from this

(24:46):
group that said we got your namefrom a friend of yours and we're
and explained who they were. Would you be willing to help us
do a small 1015 minute question and answer so that the group of
senior citizens that we work with who've been coming and
asking us questions about what does it mean to be trans?

(25:07):
And we don't know anybody that can help us.
Obviously I said yes, because what else would I say?
And that's How I Met this wonderful group of people who
were seriously wanting to get the word out, but not really
having too much of an idea on how to do that and how to make

(25:28):
it work. And so we did this little, I
guess, 20 minute, 30 minute question and answer thing.
And I thought that was the end of it, you know?
Then she came back to me with another e-mail and said we are
getting such big reports on whatyou have done and we have heard

(25:48):
your story. We want to tell it.
And that's how the documentary came out about my life.
I am humbled by it because I'm just me.
I'm not sending more special than any of the of the LGBTQ or
trans people that I know. In fact, I think I know some
that are much, I don't know, more active more better, better

(26:12):
than I am. But anyway, and and I have been
impressed with how much it's making a difference.
It's shown here in in York. It is shown in Cleveland.
It is shown in Virginia. In fact, it won the Virginia
Queer Festival, best documentaryof the festival.

(26:35):
The number of people who come tome and say, I didn't know this
makes it, you know, and, and, and say something different.
And the number of people who brought, because obviously we
all know when you go to shows, you get a lot of allies to come,
right? Like preaching to the choir, but

(26:56):
they bring neighbors and stuff. And I've had people come up to
me and said, you've made me change my mind.
And I said yes and especially today, we need that, right?
I mean all the crap that is going on today and I know we
don't want to get political. I don't know Carolyn, if you
care, but but all the crap that is going on today, we need to be

(27:21):
more visible. I know that, I know that.
I know the got instinct is to pull into ourselves right and
say we got to be safe and we do need to be safe.
We do need to keep ourselves safe, but we need to do these
kind of podcasts so people can see and hear and people can
people can say whatever they want, but at least to hear they

(27:42):
get they get some information whether they want to listen to
it or not, they can hear it. One of the things that happened
to me in Sudan that I'd loved, Itold you we were, had a
fundamentalist government. We lived in a community that was
all Muslim. We did not live in a compound of
missionaries. And we were actually the only

(28:05):
white people in our community, which was a whole lot of
different experiences. But down the street from me was
a Colonel in the secret police who was in charge of internal
security in the area which we lived in.
And he had a son who was adamantly fundamentalist,

(28:29):
adamantly hated Americans. And we started getting things
happening to us. And I went to one of our other
neighbors and I said, we're goodpeople, why is this happening?
And I said, we will talk to them.
And they did. And it stopped because only
because in Sudanese culture, even in Islamic, Muslim, Islamic

(28:54):
culture, they, they don't have asense, they have a sense of
honor. And the neighbors, you don't
hurt your neighbors. You know, I was walking down the
street home one day and this Colonel was sitting out having a
tea, which they do every very regularly.
And he invited me to sit down with him.

(29:15):
And again, making a Long story short, after several times we
got to talking and he finally looked at me and he finally
said, you're a good American. He said your government is bad,
but you are good American. And what came to me from that
was and oh, and after that he started helping us.

(29:37):
So we'd get we needed to get visas to travel and I just go to
him and it would take me half anhour to get a visa, which people
would take days. But that's how he much he
appreciated our friendship that we had built.
But it was sitting down with somebody I knew who hated me to
begin with and have that conversation and it changed,

(30:01):
changed them. It didn't change all of their
attitude towards us, but they got to see me as a person.
So when we left, he and his family came to say goodbye and
they cried. I mean, it was so awesome.
And I think that's what I want from my documentary.
From this documentary, I wanted to be people that see us, to be

(30:23):
able to sit down and have these conversations.
And if it means me stepping out and putting myself in danger a
little bit, I'm willing to do that because it's too important
for me. I'm I'm working with a young,
young trans person right now whois just definitely afraid of

(30:44):
what's going to happen and that breaks my heart.
Yeah. That's.
That's just, it's, it's so scary.
And I think that you make a really good point there when
talking about how you have humanized Americans, how you

(31:07):
have humanized trans people, howyou have humanized by being
involved, by being a part of thecommunities that you're in.
And I think that that's a reallyimportant message for this time
right now, because one of the biggest things that one of the

(31:28):
biggest talking points is dehumanization.
It's this idea of, of viewing usas these monsters.
And I don't know, I, I feel likesomething that you said there
that really resonated with me was this idea of like, you think

(31:51):
I'm a monster, spend 20 minutes with me, like a legitimate 20
minutes and have a cup of coffeewith me and hear my story.
And I, it changes everything. And so I'm, I, I guess I feel

(32:14):
like I'm, I, I guess my questionwould then be for us, like what,
what more, what more should we be doing, especially in this
climate right now to humanize the trans community?
I, I think I don't know if you meant that Chris Ramir, the

(32:35):
others, and I don't mean to jumpin and talk over anybody, but I
mean, there's so many ways to doit.
I mean, you know, you'd be out. So you volunteer at your local
animal shelter. You, you volunteer to do things
with people who aren't trans. You get out and get mixed and
it's scary, but that that's the only way you can do it.
One of the things I liked and love about the documentary that

(32:58):
I thought they did a very good job with was they did humanize
me. They, they, they, they showed
pictures of me walking with my dog.
They showed pictures of me and Betsy just kind of looking at
Overlake Erie. We talked about how we got along
in the house. You know, how we as a partner,

(33:19):
Betsy talked about her concerns about everything.
The problem is, I think, and I think it, there's a rightness to
it. We focus on issues and we need
to, but I think the only way you're going to change the

(33:42):
issues is to change how they seeus and and and you're right, if
they can keep dehuman, dehumanizing us, making us
other, making us seen as, I don't know, like we're all the

(34:02):
stuff that they make us look. And I'm sorry, I'm having a
mental block right now, but the only way I think it's going to
change is all of us get out there and continue doing what
we're doing, but also do things to expand out and to help in the
community and to be a part of the community we live in.

(34:23):
I absolutely just want to say before I say anything else,
thank you so much. Honestly, like it is.
It's incredible that you grew upin a time where trans people
were. I grew up in the 90s under a
Christian fundamental. I grew up in a white, you know,

(34:44):
Christian nationalist incubator.Like my parents took me to anti
abortion protests when I was 8 years old and so, and it was
incredibly hard. I was like you, five years old.
I would pray in my bed at night to God to change me into a girl.
I can't imagine. I mean, just hearing the stories

(35:06):
about what you went through in the 60s and the 70s, it's
incredible the strength and bravery that takes to persevere
through all of that. It's I, I can't thank you enough
and I agree with you 1000%. I was fortunate enough there was
a Christian ska band that was a huge influence on me growing up,

(35:29):
and I reached out two years ago to one of the members to see if
they would want to do a bridge building conversation between a
Christian and a trans person. And to my great surprise, she
said yes. It's one of the things I'm so
proud of. I am a huge advocate for us
being able to put ourselves out there and for people to see us

(35:51):
because I do truly believe a lotof my Christian friends, they
still stuck around. I, I was incredibly fortunate to
have grown up in a time where I was a little bit more open
minded than you were. And I feel like the fact that I
live in a blue state and I have in one of the bluest counties of
California, that it is one of myabsolute obligations to put

(36:16):
myself out there as much as I can.
I'm constantly looking to talk to conservatives, Christians,
anybody, because I, I, I joke that I have forgotten more of
the Bible than most Christians will ever learn.
So I know the lingo inside and out.
And I have enough privileges being who I am that it's, it's

(36:41):
crucial now because we see the moral majority, the right wing
fundamentalists, the Heritage Foundation, they've been laying
this foundation since at least the 60s to, because they were so
pissed off that the hippies won the counterculture, right?
The hippies won the culture war.And so I, you know, maybe we can

(37:05):
exchange information afterwards.I would love to do something.
But mostly I just wanted to say I really appreciate everything
that you're doing. And like you said, we need it
now more than ever. They're speed running fascism
right now and we are one of the targets because we are the most
vulnerable and we're one of the smallest.

(37:27):
And if people don't put two and two together that they're going
to take us out first. They're going to continue to
keep moving because all they want is CIS head white Christian
men. They want CIS head white women
so they can reproduce and that'sit.
They don't want to give CIS headwhite women anything else.
And I do truly believe that the bottom of my heart, more people,

(37:52):
majority of Americans, are not like these people.
These people are a small but very powerful and rich group of
Christian extremists who want theocracy in this country.
And I'm sorry if I'm rambling but it was.
I love meeting fellow people because I'm agnostic myself, but

(38:16):
I love meeting people whether it's me, an agnostic who's
talking to Christians, or an actual trans person who's a
Christian. Normal people need to see this
100%. We need it so much.
Yeah, agreed. And that's why for me, you were

(38:40):
talking about things to do. I would love to get my
documentary out more. I mean, I will come to
California. If there is a showing out there,
I would come to where you are ifyou ask and you can find a way
to show this documentary becauseafter the documentary, we always
have question and answers. And I think that's the time that

(39:04):
people can go beyond because I mean, you know, you're watching
this documentary and there's allthis good information about how
I was and kind of makes me more of a person.
But like you were saying it, it's one to one conversations.
It it's it's having a conversation.
And I consider myself a trans Christian.
I'm married to a Presbyterian minister.

(39:25):
I kind of have to be. Liberal Presbyterian right?
Not. Conservative.
Well. Conservative Presbyterians.
Well, well, they were conservative Presbyterians.
In fact, when I was in mission mission work, my my supervisor

(39:45):
would come to where I was or be walking around and his comments
were always those queers are destroying the church.
When I was growing up in the Presbyterian Church, they barely
were allowing women to preach. Gays couldn't be ordained to be
part of anything in leadership. Forget about trance.

(40:09):
And it took them. Years to get through that before
they finally said we're going tobe an affirming church.
However, they lifted up to individual congregations.
So I'm going to a congregation right now that is struggling
with how they can become. And part of that struggle

(40:34):
started with me going to that church because they started
seeing me sitting there and theyhad to figure out what they
wanted to do. I think now it's moving towards
a more open, more affirming thatI think that's what's going to
end up being. But it's fun.
No, it's not fun. It's sad sometimes and funny
sometimes to see the struggle people have.

(40:58):
And it amazes me to see the difference because the young
people of the church, they come up to me and talk to me and
they'll ask me questions, I mean, and I'm the kind of person
you can ask me anything. Same.
And I will answer you. And if it's honest questions,
I'll answer you honestly. But if you're trying to hurt me,

(41:21):
I'll respond to you. But I'm not going to give you a
whole answer and go into detail.And I hold the right to say
there are some things I don't tell.
So for example, I was raped, I was gang raped, and it was right
not long after my transition. And I can talk about that now,
but when people start to ask me direct questions about it, I

(41:46):
just can't. And so I can talk about the
incident, I can talk about what happened afterwards, but it
brings too much pain back into me to talk about that in detail.
What, you know, for what was I like, what happened?
I mean, people were asked those questions.
That's just sick. There's no, that's terrible.
Yeah. And so I don't, I don't answer

(42:08):
those questions. I say, you know, I'm sorry.
You know, we can talk about the incident.
I can tell you how I'm feeling now.
I can tell you how I dealt with it.
But, and I can sympathize with those who have been, but I would
never ask them what it was like,you know?
Wow, Yeah, that's. Yeah, I think we need to have
these conversations. I would love to be able to start

(42:31):
up a A1 on one. And you gave me the whole,
Jenna, that I think I'm going todo this within within the
presbytery is to say that I wantto have one-on-one dialogues
with people. I'm going to put my name out
there and just say if you have questions, if you want to talk,
if you want to holler about the situation, I'm here for you to

(42:54):
do that. I think that's a great way of
moving and making that direction.
I have a friend who is one of myfavorite, one of my favorite
transgender authors and she's a Christian as well.
And she actually wrote a book called Ask me Everything or Ask

(43:14):
me anything. I'm so sorry.
Ask me anything. And I think it's just, I mean,
so I identify as a Christian as well.
I mentioned I'm, I think I jokingly said before that I was
a recovering evangelical. That was the term I used.

(43:36):
But I do still identify as a person of faith.
And I, I, it's so important thatpeople see that being a believer
and being transgender are not incompatible with one another,
and in fact, quite the opposite.And I have some amazing people

(44:01):
in my life who have shown me that.
And I'm really glad that you're taking the time and energy to do
the same. Now, if I may ask, have there
been instances where I guess this is the way I'm going to ask
where your faith and your identity have intersect in a way

(44:26):
that you've been able to really show people that that that trans
Christian people exist, are valid and are just as loved by
God? Yes, I have actually.

(44:50):
Actually, part of the things, some of the things that I do is
I preach in churches. So I I am I am actually
delivering A sermon or the message.
But I think one of the things that Hutch is that a little bit
more about the interaction of the fit my faith and being trans

(45:10):
is an incident that happened at a pride event.
And there again was these, whoops, what did I do?
I think I lost you guys there. There was this group of people

(45:33):
with their hateful signs. And one of them happened to be,
and I'm sorry to say this, but one of them happened to be a
person that I knew. And I was standing in line just
watching outside because I was part of the sponsors of the, of

(45:53):
the Pride event. And we were holding it in A at
the, at one of the local fairgrounds.
And I was standing outside and Isaw these two people come out of
the car and they started walkingpast these people and they were
wearing the crosses and, and they were doing all the negative

(46:13):
stuff. And I just walked up and I don't
know why I did. I just walked up to the two and
I just said to them, I said, don't believe that this is what
God feels. This is hateful people.
And I turned around to the person I knew and I said to
them, you have the audacity to call me a friend.

(46:39):
And then you're going to stand here and do this and you're
going to do it. And you're going to say it's
because of your faith belief. But you and I have talked and
done this. So you're actually doing this to
make yourself feel good about the with the people you're
standing with. You know, you're trying to fit

(47:00):
in because you're afraid to stand up for what I think you
really believe. And then I just walked away.
A couple days later, I got an e-mail from this person who said
I was truly sorry, I was wrong for doing that.
And I wrote them back. And I said, well, I don't know
if we can be friends right now. We really need to get together

(47:21):
and talk because what you did was not just disrespecting me,
but you were hurting people coming in.
We did meet and we still meet. I'm not saying everything's
gotten fixed, but I do think it made a big difference.
It absolutely does. It's great that you call people

(47:42):
out when they need to be called out.
That's exactly what we need to do.
I as, as someone who has talked with incredibly bigoted,
conservative, Christian minded people, the one gotcha that I
always use that is very effective is I tell them, OK,
you claim to believe in Jesus and you claim to be, you know,

(48:03):
bringing forth his message. Who did Jesus hang out with when
he was on earth hanging out withthe outcasts?
He hung out with the prostitutesand the tax collectors.
And who did he despise? The religious elites, the
Sadducees, the Pharisees. So Jesus would be hanging out

(48:24):
with trans people because we're the outcasts.
So if you're going around disparaging trans people and
lifting up people like Jerry Falwell Junior and Donald Trump,
well, Jesus would despise you. So you should really rethink
what you're doing. And many times they'll get

(48:45):
pissed, but they don't really know how to respond because I
tell them I go, OK, So what? You're telling me with no
responses, you don't actually believe in Jesus.
You just claim to believe in Jesus because it makes you look,
you know, more pious and holier than thou.
But really, you're no different than the people that Jesus

(49:06):
despised. What they do is they, they,
they, they weaponize the Bible and they weaponize scripture and
they weaponize Jesus because they need, they need to have an
excuse to justify their bigotry and their hatred.
And. Again, I think that's why for me

(49:29):
getting this documentary out, getting getting ourselves out so
we can talk. They're seeing trans woman who
has a wife who's a minister who went through a crisis of faith
and has come out and still believed and still was doing the
work and still was involved. So when the same biggest, you

(49:52):
know, the same thing, it's OK. But here's the thing.
Tell me what you have done. I mean, I don't try to bag with
myself, but you're talking to meright now and you're doing all
this. But tell me what you've done to
live your faith outside of hateful comments.

(50:14):
Who have you helped? Jesus helped Jesus healed Jesus
said the poor you know Jesus didn't condemn Jesus that you
know. So what have you done the follow
you? You live with this and you
strike this out and you and you 'cause these issues and you

(50:37):
spout them, but all you're doingis giving Christianity and your
faith as the fundamental reason for you to be able to act
ignorant and hateful. And that's not Christ life.
Well, it's easy. It's easy to behave.
It's hard to love. It is, it is easy and it and

(51:00):
it's, and it and it's hard and it's, and it's, I know for those
who are listening and I don't know when this is actually going
to air, but but those who are listening and they're struggling
with being afraid and, and, and all the stuff that's coming on.
I think you're hearing people onthis podcast who are saying to
you that it's OK to be who you are.
It's OK to be there and it's OK to be out and they have your

(51:24):
backs and they're working for you and not to give up.
My documentary was about hope. I mean, it's entitled Mary from
pain to purpose and and that andthat's, and that's what that's
what it's about. I mean, it, it is about going
through the stuff. We've all gone through this
stuff, right? We've lost friends, we've lost

(51:44):
family, we've lost jobs. We've, we've had difficulties
that we lived within, especiallythose who are living in
Christian fundamentalist homes are very, very, very
conservative areas. However, the hope is the
strength is look at the people and listen to the people talking

(52:09):
on this podcast. Look at the people who are
allies, Cheryl and her community.
I mean, I can't tell you how much I love SLA right now, but
they're my family. They didn't know a lot about
what it meant to be trans and they learned with us and they

(52:29):
talked. And now there's some of my
biggest supporters and they're, and they're out there trying to
make a difference in the world and, and, and they struggle when
they don't know how to move forward.
And and they, and they struggle with me and, and they, they say
we're sorry and we want to do something to help, but we want
to use our right sis power and privilege to help.

(52:53):
There are people out there who care.
There are people who are out there who aren't going to follow
the political garbage that's coming out.
And that's what it is. It's garbage.
It's garbage because he can't doanything to really help us to
treat the country. I mean, so he's got to pick on
somebody and make it look like he's destroying the people that

(53:14):
he dehumanized, as we talked about earlier, demonized,
demonized us. That's how they did it in 1933
Germany. Well, it's every fashion like.
Yep, just how fascists work. I like to think of, you know, as
to be hopeful is is I like to think of the pendulum swinging.

(53:34):
And so, you know, the last decade or two is kind of moved
in a in a progressive way. And so this is a last stand for,
you know, white nationalist Christian theocracy trying to
trying to keep hold the values of, of a, of a nation built 400
years ago on, on white supremacy.

(53:54):
And this is, you know, this is atheir last dying stand.
And so that's why it is so important that we do not obey in
advance and and we don't follow through with what they're saying
because they're just dying out. And this is the loud temper
tantrums of the room when they're being pushed to the
side. And it's unfortunate.

(54:15):
It feels like it's a vendetta for, you know, the world to to
have moved forward. And then these people come along
and say, no, you are actually getting punished because you
made me have to say my pronouns for the last 10 years.
And now we're not going to do that because he's like.
And so it's just a if it's a vendetta and we just have to

(54:36):
push through and it is scary. It's very dangerous.
Multiple times, multiple times aweek.
I think to myself, you know, is this a smart thing to do where I
live, the job that I work, you know, but I think is this is so
dangerous what we're doing. My full name here I am and a

(54:57):
podcast and, and it's hard to wrestle with, you know, and I,
and I wanted to touch on a little bit what I found, you
know, because I, I, I went to church as a young person, but
the difference was, was my mother didn't care that I went
to church or not. She was like, you can go to the
mosque, you can go to the Buddhist temple, you can do
whatever you want. And I call her at 10, I'm 10

(55:19):
years old. I say, Hey, I just got baptized
with my friend Christian, and she's like Caroline, this is the
fifth time we've got baptized since you were like 4.
And I was like, what's fun? I like getting in the water.
You know, I love swimming. And, you know, and then my
grandparents went to church and they, this is where I believe
they had structure and routine and they went to church and they

(55:40):
had community. And so I wanted that myself.
And so I sought out 16 years agonow that's a long time.
I sought out a church. I went to the church I went to
as a kid as a church festival. But they're Catholics, you know,
they only care about you when it's involving beer and liquor

(56:00):
and gambling the rest of the year.
If they're not making money off you, they don't care.
No, but they do. They help my family when my
house burned down. But I found an affirming church.
Well, I wouldn't say affirming, but it was just a church that I
loved. And I think I fell in love with
this idea of community. And I think that's where my, my

(56:22):
desire to, to not stay in faith,but to connect with others
because I, I believed in the message of, of Jesus was, was a
message that can be paralleled through many other philosophies
and religions around the world. And Jesus was just this
embodiment of all of the historybefore and to 1 And, and you

(56:42):
know, the parallels of, you know, consciousness, It's the
whole thing, you know, and I andI and so, you know, for me, it
is personal. The reasons why we're this cross
and it's hard to wrestle with when you when you live in a
nation now where like you're being told who is Christian and
who isn't Christian by by a rapist is telling me that who is

(57:04):
a Christian and who isn't. And I'm being told that they're
afraid of, of people like me in the bathroom again, who they
voted for a rapist, though I, itdoesn't make sense to me how
they're coming out. And so I'm not to, not to, not
to get my personal grievances out.
But you know, Mary, having you on this show is, is so

(57:26):
important. You know, hearing your story, I,
I think I think back to when you, when you talked about
Susan's place, the website that you had visited back in the 90s
in the early eras of the Internet.
That was before I mean I don't. How did you even search?
I don't think it was before Google.
I'm assuming I mean it. Was a wild Twitter it?

(57:47):
Was the wild, wild Internet thenyou know and I'll.
Age myself and tell you it was adial up network.
It was a what? A dial.
Up network. Oh.
You had a dial and then it went me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me,
me. Oh yeah, that sounded so
nostalgic to me. Yeah, Can I, I, I think I think

(58:12):
of Susan's place and I think of,I think of this podcast in the
sense that you found that website in the 90s and it, and
it allows you to see a glimpse of who you are.
And that's, that's how Cheryl found us was simply by searching
on the same Internet that you 25years prior typed in to find,

(58:37):
transform whatever you typed in.And it LED you to Susan's place
and, and Cheryl typed in something that found us.
And we're here having this conversation and there's
generations here that have that have spanned so much of, of life
and, and we're sharing in this conversation and we are
humanizing. And this country does play in 64

(58:58):
countries. So maybe it might play in that
country that you were even in. It might even have played in
that country. That would be that would be so
that would be so awesome. But you said something, Carolyn,
I want to really point out, I think it's an important thing
that we've all been talking about and maybe skirting around
a little bit is that's how do wemake a difference.

(59:21):
You, you talked about how you had a need for community and you
wanted to be part of a community.
That's human nature. We all have that.
Yes. I find in the trans and
sometimes in the LGBTQ community, we get ourselves so
caught up in what we see as the pressure from the outside that

(59:42):
the, the wackos who are talking the stuff that they're talking
about that we're make our community us, right.
I'm safe with other members of the LGBTQ community.
So I'll go to events that are being sponsored by the Rainbow
Rose Center. I'll go to pride, but I don't

(01:00:08):
want to be in a community where there might be somebody who
doesn't like me. For me, I'm like you, the church
I go to, it's it's learning. But but when I my first day that
church, somebody walked in with a MAGA hat on.
And I stayed and, and, and it's making a difference and it makes

(01:00:28):
a difference when we are in community, we need to be
careful. We need a community of our
friends and, and, and people whounderstand us because that's how
you get strength. You guys are giving me strength
today. I type to be honest with you,
I've been dealing with some things locally with, with people
being stressed and I even had a suicide watch that was I'm

(01:00:51):
taking part of and it's hard. So it's good to have people like
us and it's good to listen to podcasts.
It's good to go to documentariesshowing of people about us
because that's I think where youget strength and you get
renewed. But it's but it's also important

(01:01:11):
for us, as Jenna said and Aliciasaid, we need to be out there
and we need to talk to people. And if it's one-on-one or in
community or through this documentary or through your
podcast, it is an important process for us to be doing.
And I AM 70 years old. I have lived through many

(01:01:37):
generations. I have lived through many
hardships. I have been in gunfights as a
law enforcement officer. I have been done a lot of
things. And if it's my time to go
because of being who I am and I'm out there, I'm content with
that. I want to piggyback up, sorry.

(01:01:59):
I'm not going to hide. I'm going to continue doing the
work. And I think apparently you're
right. It's a pendulum, but the
pendulum doesn't swing on its own.
What's happening now is a pushback.
It's a pushback from all the advances we have made.
And, and, and the white nationalist male power group is

(01:02:21):
trying to push back because that's what they want.
They want to go back to what what they say can make America
great again. Will you ask them when was
America great? They'll tell you.
The 50s and 60s, women couldn't vote.
Women couldn't use credit cards.Women were meant to breed and
raise your family. People like us were put in
closets and you weren't allowed.People of color were mistreated.

(01:02:46):
We're second class citizens, yeah.
Yeah, and that's. It takes us to start pushing
that pendulum back. And the only way you can push
it, it's not. I think Jenny, you mentioned
earlier not falling into what they're saying ahead of time.

(01:03:06):
Don't obey ahead of time. I think somebody, yeah.
And just be who you are. Just just be there.
Yeah, I'm sorry. At least you go.
I want to piggyback off that really, really quickly because
as we're starting to wrap up, there's one big thing I feel

(01:03:26):
like we absolutely need to do asa community.
And somebody did this the day after the election and it made
all the difference in the world for me.
We need to double down. We need to double down.
And, and the person I'm talking about is not a fully out full

(01:03:47):
time trans person. She's kind of in that process of
starting to work towards transitioning.
And the day after the election, she went to just to the grocery
store as femme in femme, her name's Natalie, and she's become

(01:04:11):
like a really good friend of mine.
But the fact that she doubled down so hard and basically just
said, I'm not going anywhere like we need that now is not the
time to go on, go into hiding. Now is not the time to to stop,
stop living the lives that one we deserve to live and to make

(01:04:42):
show others pushing, as you said, pushing that pendulum in
the other direction. It's so crucial.
And so thank you for sharing that and thank you for talking.
And I will also say, going back to talking about hope, we have

(01:05:05):
someone like me. I have talked with so many
Christians and conservatives andsome I knew were probably never
going to come around. But being persistent and knowing
that every group, those that hate us truly are just a really
small amount of people. Now, like I said earlier in the

(01:05:26):
Christian community, that reallysmall amount have a lot of money
and a lot of power, but people are naturally skeptical of
authority in America. Like it's, it's built into our
DNA. And right now the Christian
nationalists have gone full maskoff.
You've got Elon running around trying to steal directly from
the US Treasury while they pretend to be populist and for

(01:05:48):
the little people. And I do truly believe at some
point this is all going to breakdown you when you see trans
people just being completely treated completely cruelly just
because of the fact that we exist.
Most normal people don't like that.
They're disgusted by it and we have to know that and take it

(01:06:13):
and run with it. I personally put people into
groups of threes, people who arebigoted.
I don't waste my time. Don't ever talk to them.
It's pointless. People that are allies, they're
great. They might say some ignorant
things here and there and I do what I call maintenance, which

(01:06:33):
is, hey, that's technically wrong, that's offensive.
You're good people, don't worry.Just don't say this next time.
I focus on the people who are onthe fence because they truly can
be gotten if we invest time in them because it is much harder

(01:06:55):
for us to transition on our side.
But I tell people, remember, they're transitioning to many of
them don't know much about us and they're afraid to say
something because they don't want to offend us.
So if you give them that space to ask questions respectfully, I
can almost guarantee more often than not they're going to come

(01:07:17):
to our side because we're the ones that are showing them
humility. We're being nice, we're
respecting them. We're not out there saying those
people are freaks hate them. We're saying we're just like
you. We're just trying to live.
You're trying. You're paycheck to paycheck on
paycheck to paycheck, right? Appeal to their humanity,

(01:07:41):
humanize us. And I really think, you know, in
the end, it's going to swing towards our favor.
Is that a little bit delusional?Maybe.
But things are so terrible rightnow specifically that we have to
force hope or else we're not going to make it.

(01:08:01):
And that's what I try to get my people to understand is that
it's scary, yes, to put yourselfout there, but what's the worst
that's going to happen if you do, right?
It's tough. It's tough, but it's something
that needs to be done. And I just, I love that you're
pushing this documentary. It needs to be seen so.

(01:08:24):
Again, I'm going to put a reallyopen, blatant plug for the
documentary. I think it's a great way to
start. I think if anybody has any ideas
to help where we can show it that will make a difference, let
us know. Do you have my contact now?
If you don't, we I can get it toyou.

(01:08:46):
I will I'm willing I'm retired so I can travel.
I'm willing to go wherever you need us to go so we can have a
question and answer period afterit.
But I think you're right. I think it's very important that
we push the hope. I think it's very important
reason important that we understand that, yeah, there's
pain and then we can go into purpose and we can go into hope.

(01:09:10):
I, I, I think it's very important to Jenna.
What, what what you said is, is this whole sense of taking the
time to understand it. There are a lot of people out
there. Yes, there are a lot of people
out there who are just plain bigoted and you're not going to
change them. My brother is 1.

(01:09:35):
When I came out to them he said you're dead, you should be dead.
Haven't heard from him since. I don't want to contact him
again. It's a lost cause.
But the people who don't know, for the people who are afraid to
ask you questions, for the people who you're telling.
I always say Pi, always tell my friends that are starting to

(01:09:58):
transition this, even though it's hard for you, even though
you struggled, you always knew who you were.
Now you're talking to somebody who knew you in one way and has
no idea what was going on in your personal life because you
probably were too afraid to say anything.

(01:10:18):
So now you're coming out and they need to transition to.
Yep. And you need to give them the
grace that they you're asking them for.
That's one group. Then the other group of people
who are, I don't know the numbers that we are a minority
in this country, probably the smallest minority in this

(01:10:40):
country. Barely 1% I believe.
OK. And if you think about that, how
many people then never really had an interaction with a trans
person? A lot.
Yeah, they made it. I mean, yes, we're around
everywhere. So there are people who see a
trans person, they don't know ithow many people actually

(01:11:06):
interacted with a trans person. That's why the hate and the
bigots can get away with it, because they put this and people
don't understand and they say, Oh my God, that's happening and
it's us that need to stand up. Sorry Carolyn, I got on a rant.
No, I absolutely love that. If you, as always, want to

(01:11:29):
participate in the Trans Narrative Podcast, please e-mail
us at [e-mail].
That's how Cheryl and Mary foundus here on the podcast.
So again, if you're interested in being a part of this show and
having your story heard, please e-mail us at
[e-mail].I just want to take this moment

(01:11:49):
and really thank Sheriff for being here, providing them
information about the doctoring.Mary from pain to purpose and
Mary, Alicia, Jenna, Jenna, Jenna, Jenna, thank you so much
for being here with us today. My pleasure as always.
Yes. Any final thoughts, concerns,
comments you'd like to leave us with?

(01:12:10):
I mean, basically, don't let thefascists win.
We have humanity on our side. It has been shown time and again
every time evil gets a foothold that goodwill overpower.
I know that it's easy to say sometimes.
Sometimes I say to myself just because I have to, but I really

(01:12:35):
truly do believe in the good of humanity and just take that
positive energy and push hope asmuch as you can.
That's. Right, Alicia, thank you so much
for being here with us today. It's always a pleasure.
And any final thoughts, commentsor concerns you'd like to leave
us with? Double down just like my friend

(01:13:00):
Natalie did the right after after the election, double down.
That's right, thank you. Thank you Alicia and Jenna for
joining us here in the trans narrative as guest Co host.
It's so good to have you back. You've been here multiple
seasons with us. So it has been it has been a
pleasure. And audience, before we go,

(01:13:22):
please just remember that we arenot going anywhere.
And you can e-mail us again at [e-mail].
Thank you for being here and listening to our show and
supporting us and just being with us for Four Seasons now.
So that is such a remarkable thing to to have achieved and,
and we're just so glad to be here. 65 countries have heard

(01:13:44):
our podcast. Thousands of people have tuned
in week after week, year after year.
And we're not going anywhere, especially now, Not now, not
now. We are going to be here.
As dangerous it is as it may be,especially for our editor,
that's me. We're still going to be here.
So before we go, Mary. Mary, thank you so much for

(01:14:09):
agreeing to be here with us on the Trans Narrative Podcast.
Thank you for having me so much.I am, I am humbled and I am, I
am grateful that I have found you.
I am going to be following you and I just think it's really
important and I want to kind of follow up on what Jenna said.

(01:14:32):
I have a mantra. Like I said, I was beaten up.
I was afraid of things and I gotso angry.
One day in one of my therapy sessions, I told my therapist
and I hope I can say this on theair, but I'm going to anyway.
I said I don't want to let the bastards win.

(01:14:54):
It's and I know, I know there's this fascist part of it, and
that's very true because that's what's happening.
But there's also just the plain bigotry of people who don't care
as long as they're hurting. So my mantra to all of you,
please don't let the bastards win.
Double down. Be who you are.

(01:15:15):
And most importantly, no, you are not alone and you are a
special gift to everybody aroundyou.