Naaz Joshi: Glamour, Grit & Global Impact | Trans Visibility, Victory & Authenticity - The Trans Narrative Podcast

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Well, hi, everyone. Welcome back to the Trans
Narrative Podcast. I'm Caroline.
And today I have the distinct pleasure of being here with
Kristen Roddy. Hi, Kristen.
Good. Morning, Caroline.
It's so good to have you. Thanks for being here and
joining us a little bit more often.
It's Dylan Dickerson. Hello, Dylan.
Welcome. Hello.

(00:21):
Hello. Happy morning on our side.
Yes, yes. And our very, very special
guest, Naz. Joshi, welcome.
Thank you so much from India. It's like good evening this
evening time here. So I wish you all a happy
morning to you, but happy evening to us.
Thank you for making me come here.

(00:41):
It is our pleasure. So for those that may not know,
Naz Joshi is India's first transgender international beauty
queen, a trailblazing model and a fearless advocate for trans
ranks. Crown Miss World diversity three
years in a row, only one to in the world to achieve this.
From overcoming adversity in herearly life to grazing magazine

(01:02):
covers and runways, she has turned personal struggle into
public power. Today, Nas uses her platform to
challenge patriarchy, campaign visibility and inspire a new
generation to live boldly and unapologetically.
Nas, it is such a pleasure. Thank you for being here.
Thank you. Thank you for having me here.

(01:25):
Thank you SO. Beautiful everybody welcome back
to the trans narrative podcast. This is Dylan Dickerson, I'm
here with Caroline, Kristen, ourspecial guest, Naz Joshi.
And this is just so incredible for me.
I'd love to get this started. I off because I'm joining as a

(01:47):
more regular Co host. I'm as a former guest and I
think this is a really special first interview for me because
there's a lot of firsts happening, but I don't want to
get ahead of myself. We'll kind of go back and start
to to the beginning. So Nas, let's take us back.
Take us back to where your storystarts.
Where did you grow up? What is the What do we want

(02:08):
people to know to begin this story?
OK, so basically as you all know, I'm from India and I was
born in the capital of India called New Delhi.
And I was born on December 31st,1976.
And that's about almost 49 yearsfrom now.
And that time we had a very tough, you know, things for

(02:34):
people who are from our community like Kazamba trans
community. We didn't even hear the term
trans that time. And when I was born, of course,
the doctor assigned me a sex that work of a male.
But as I grew up, I didn't find that I'm sitting in the boxes of
what male is supposed to be. I was more into the feminine
side of me. I was to play with doll.

(02:56):
I used to play with women for the girls.
I used to play with them. And I used to always, you know,
put on makeup on. Like I remember very early age
at about four and four and a half when I was a preschool, I
was in preschool, my teachers would dress me up as a doll and
take me to the stage and I was just sing like via paper dolls
and via paper dolls. So I was like a kind of favorite

(03:16):
with my features, but not in terms of like a mailman.
But they used to always treat melike a doll because I used to
look like a doll. 1 And I alwaysthought that I am a woman.
I never thought that I'm a, I'm a man or I'm a boy.
I never thought that. And from the very beginning, a
lot of people ask me this question, when did you realize
that you were a trans woman? For me, no, I always thought
that I am a, I'm a woman. I never thought I'm a trans

(03:38):
woman leader, right? So when I grew up about say six
years or seven years, that was atime when, you know, people
start objecting. Like in India, we have this
neighborhood who's too much intoour families.
This you keep looking whether the child had food or not,
whether the whether the the girlchild is she being sent to

(03:59):
school? Because a lot of in India, girl
children are deprived of education as well because their
parents think that they have to just go on to a different, you
know, family and they'll get married.
And, and for the boys, they always plan that, oh, they want
to go to the school. Boys should go to school.
Boys are the ones who are, who are, you know, earning and boys
are the one who are that. We have a very practical

(04:22):
society. You can call it that way in
India. So anything that a man does in a
feminine manner, that becomes anabuse, that becomes a taboo in
the society. So as I told you, I was in a
boy's body and I still like doing my mom's makeup.
I still like wearing sarees. I should make nose with the
drapes. I should do pure drapes.
And my neighborhood, they never liked it.

(04:43):
They come and used to complain to my mom and my dad.
Oh, you think your child is intersect?
Because that is the only thing that they knew.
They thought that it's intersex.They're not transgender.
So they, they were posting my, you know, my parents to send me
to Hijita community, which I told you the Hijita community in
India is the one who do begging and clapping.
And they're the, they were the only support groups he had back

(05:06):
in the time times of 70s and 80sand even 90s for that matter.
That was the only place where wecould go.
But luckily, they had sent me tomy uncle's place in Mumbai in
where Bollywood is. And very early on, I started,
you know, earning for myself. They put me to a restaurant to
do cleaning and all that kind ofa job.

(05:27):
In the morning, I should do that.
In the evening, I should go to school.
So my school was a boy's school.So but being in a boy's school
and being a woman myself, it wasreally difficult for me because
they used to always tease me with names.
Like we have some Bollywood movies where they put, you know,
narration of trans people as some somebody of mockery.
They just like mock at us and this make fun of me.

(05:49):
Oh my God, you're a woman, you're a lady.
You're so that is to get to my head has to come back home and
to cry a lot. That was an irony because I
didn't know I thought I'm the only one whom God has made me
like this, that I am neither a man nor a woman.
What am I I didn't know myself. That's the only thing that I, I
had was to come and cry. And what happened with me at the

(06:11):
age of 11 was I was molested by my own cousin brothers like my
uncle's children. I was molested by them.
That left a very deep scar in myheart that while growing up, you
know, I thought that 11 or 12 or13 was the age for me to play to
not even think about sex that time.

(06:32):
And when I was introduced to sexin that that age, I was not
happy. I didn't like it, you know,
honestly speaking, I was not something that it is like what
you say, consensual. It was not consensual.
And when you're so young, you'renot able to tell your parents or
tell your caretakers what happened with you for this wife.
So that I kept in in myself. I told my mom, I think after

(06:54):
many, many years that what happened to me, but that was too
late because already I grew up and all that.
Well, when we talk about, you know, let's say I was with my
uncle and I didn't have much earnings to myself.
I was working at Starbucks. He one fine day he just left me
in in the middle of the street, a busy St. which I didn't know

(07:15):
how to come back and how to go go, go back right from there
like he took you. We have Meela.
You know what Meela is, Meela issupposed to be like a lot of
people gathering out there doinga lot of festivity stuff that is
called meela. And we had to meela and in that
he had put me there and I, I waslost.
I got lost and I was picked up by transgender community, which

(07:39):
is called the hijra community. And they took me to with them
and I was not happy there. I said no, this is not what I
want to do. I don't want to do this, this
clapping work and I don't want to, you know, beg and I don't.
I used to feel miserable there. So I went to a dance bar, a bar
where girls downstairs and what what should say a drag of
Commons these days was called, was not there in India that

(08:01):
time. Of course, we have a history of
strats of Commons from very old.It's called Norton King.
That is a drag of Commons that you know, like not taken back in
1920s, thirties. Even in Bollywood, men have to
play female parts. And if you are not aware about
that, but I'm going to tell you honestly, in 1920s and 30s when
Bollywood started, there was a time when men were the part of
the female collection. So similarly it went on to long

(08:24):
time. So I started dancing like a
female there. So I, I earned a lot of money
from there. I was studying as well.
And then came age of 18 and 18 was a time when you know, a
teacher of mine told me, why don't you become a fashion
designer? Why you want to become a Because
I wanted to be an architect. Honestly speaking, I wanted to
be an architect but my but I wasnot very good with studies.

(08:46):
The reason being one, my molestation and it was not just
one time that my molestation washappening.
It could continue till the age of 17 when I actually said no, I
will not do it more. And for the first power language
came to me saying no, it was 2017 and I said not 2000.
So I was 17. It was about I think 1993.

(09:07):
So I said no look I will not working for this anymore.
And I met you know, my my teacher and my teacher saw my
profile and he saw my drawings. He said why don't you become a
fashion designer? He introduced me to a lot of
Indian designers that time we had Ritu Berry, Ritu Kumar and
all those people, you know, big people and he introduced me to
their work. And when and, and, and I and we

(09:30):
didn't have access to, you know,that we didn't have access to
satellite channels in India thattime satellite channels came in
1994 in India. So when 994 came and you know,
in the 90s, I started watching FTV.
We got this FTV then and satisfaction.
So that inspired me to become a passion designer.
I went to the top most school inIndia for fashion designing.

(09:51):
It's called National Institute of Fashion Technology, which was
affiliated by Fashion Institute of Technology in US.
OK, so the FIT and NIFT, they were affiliated with each other.
So I became a designer and but when I became a designer, the
biggest challenge came to me waswe had artisans who were from a

(10:11):
very back backward society couldn't accept what trance is
for them transmitted. So they were the ones who
created problems for me at workplace.
They were like this embroidery for other designers, but they
never should do embroidery for me.
They said no, we have a lot of work to do.
We can't do your work. They should disconnect me.
But they were they made situation as such that I should

(10:34):
quit my job and I should go somewhere.
And that's what happened. I quit my job as a designer and
I left that place and all that Icould have now is no option left
but to do sex work. So I went to there was this very
newly opened gay massage parlor in 2010.

(10:56):
It was opened and I joined them and I worked as a sex worker
there. And to my luck, what happened
was there was this photographer there who had come called Rishi
Kaneja. He was one of the very big
photographers in India who used to shoot for Vogue India law
official Bizarre, you know all those magazines.
He he looked at me and he said why don't you work with me for

(11:17):
my biopic? I want to make a biopic on a
topic called life of a transgender prostitute.
And I said yes, because that time we didn't have many trans
women who had come out of this shell.
So I said yes. So I worked with him about three
years, I think three years, you know, back, back, back.
I worked with him for his biopicand he showcased his collection

(11:38):
in a lot of places in India, Like it was black and white
series where I was having sex and with a client or where I was
dressing up. You know, he just wanted to show
that aspect of everything, you know, like he wanted to prove
that trans women are women as well.
And they do they, they are like they're, it's not their fault
that if if we are in sex work, it's the fault of people who
didn't give us a nine to five job.

(11:59):
That's why we opted for sex work.
Well, in 2013, I ended that sex work and my government taught a
photographer. He got me jobs as shoe stoppers
for many of the fashion weeks inIndia.
I started my modelling journey in 2013.
There is not plan that just happened because this guy had
clicked a lot of progress of mine which went viral that time.

(12:22):
And in 2015, I was on the cover of a magazine in India that was
called Tehelka and that was famous for doing sting
operations on a lot of these Bollywood celebrities who are
doing casting couches. So I became face of their brand
and 2015 and I got very popular in India then and I started
doing beauty pageants for women.What happened one day was we

(12:45):
were me and my me. We were sitting in the living
room and we were watching a beauty pageant named Semina Miss
India. She asked me, sister, why is it
not for us? Like I'm a married woman.
I also want to be part of beautypageants.
So we started with a parent called Mrs. India Homemakers and
for homemakers, especially for homemakers.

(13:06):
So I started that in 2015 and with an intention of not making
money, but an intention to have these girls having their dreams
fulfilled so that they can be amicious India also and they can
wear a crown. So that was my motivation to do
that. So it is also said when we, you
know, like when we do good to others, the best thing happens

(13:27):
to us. So in 2016, we got a proposal
from Miss United Nations beauty pageant in in US that time.
Yeah. And they asked, you know, can
you send us a Miss Woman, like agirl who's never married?
I said I'm sorry, I don't have any girl because I'm working for
Missus girls. So they said, OK, why don't you
come and represent your country here?

(13:48):
I said, look, I cannot come because it was in Jamaica.
Yes, I remember Jamaica. Yeah, 2016.
And they said, no, you come. I said I'm a trans woman.
They said no problem. I think Miss Universe had
already eradicated this thing that, you know, in 2014 or
something, or 2013 or 2012. I think Miss Universe has said
that, you know, even if you're if you're a trans woman and use

(14:09):
your your passport, say you're awoman, you can come for a Miss
English gadget. So that was the thing that they
had taken. And I went there and I won a
subtitle there called Miss United Nations Ambassador.
In 2017. I was continuing with my Mrs.
pageant. In 217, I got another offer for
Miss World Diversity pageant that was supposed to take place

(14:29):
in the Soto in South Africa, in that near South Africa.
Yeah. So we went there to the Soto.
I represented my country and I won't.
And again I went in 2018, again I went in 2019.
See, I was doing it this again and again because what was
happening was I was not getting the enough publicity in media
because what was happening was that journalists were more

(14:49):
interested in knowing my stat story, like what happened with
me in the childhood, what was happening.
They were not wanting to write about my accomplishments.
And I wanted to get my accomplishment written because
documented, because I thought itcan inspire a lot of trans women
to be a model and to be a role model for other society.
And also it will help the other parents that they will not let

(15:11):
their children go out of their family because they would know
that their child can also make them proud.
And that was my idea. That's why I want to do it again
and again and again. So yeah.
You just hit on something so amazing because it Caroline, I
know we had talked about this about why we're we're doing the
podcast right and why the narrative version of this is so

(15:31):
important. And before I ask the next I, I
just have to say you are so goodat this coherent story from
beginning to end. Like we didn't even you know, I
was realizing there were questions and things to let.
But you, the timeline and the way you told that story itself,
the way you framed your own narrative.
And I think that's something that's so important.
Like you just said, people didn't want to tell, right?

(15:51):
The, the good parts, all the things you feel like sometimes
maybe I think everyone here, allthat we accomplished right as
trans people, all that we know about ourselves, the good things
that in our lives, we can write down this resume, we can have
the CV that's 15 pages, all these places we go.
But people are always either interested right in, in what's
your body look like or, or this sad story you have to tell.

(16:12):
And they feel like that that's what they want to see or put on
the magazine rather than anything about you as a person
or what you do. So I, I wanted to ask, how did,
how does that feel like you accomplished so much?
You have a Wikipedia page, right?
And you have does it still feel like that sometimes I that
people are still trying to do that?
Yes, you know what see with me Ithink I have seen a lot of

(16:35):
discrimination in my life. Also, I want to tell you how I
started Miss Universe Trans Beauty pageant because that also
has a story to it. There is this pageant in Latin
America, I will not name them in2020.
I had applied for them because Ihad never gone to any trans
pageant in my life till till 2020.
So 2020 before the COVID had applied for them.

(16:56):
And sadly my dad had cancer thatyear and he passed away and the
contest, it got postponed to March 2021.
I told him, look, I'm not able to come but because I have
committed to you, I'm sending you my successor.
So I send them my successor. And what happened to me, to me
was they saw my like, you know, obviously they saw my portrait.

(17:19):
They didn't see my full body till then.
And when they saw my full body, they started body shaming me on
in public places like places like in social media.
And I felt very sad. I said, look, what if I am, I'm
like, you know, so old. What if I have a heavier body?
What if I've got plus size body?Why can't we have a pageant
which accepts everything? Because there are many very
pageant for trans people who arehave certain age limit like 38,

(17:42):
I think 38 or 34. And but that is what inspired
me. And in 2022, I said, OK, doesn't
matter. I'm going to launch my own
beauty pageant where I'm going to accept every form of, you
know, sizes and beauty because beauty has no standards.
Let's not have, let's not keep beauty in the boxes.
Let's have, you know, girls who are plus sizes.
Let's have girls who are above 40.

(18:04):
And today, like in 2025, we willbe having girls who are 50 plus
as well. And we're coming to beauty
pageant, which I feel is incredible because we're
celebrating beauty at 50 is awesome, you know?
And yeah. And yeah.
Please take me to a question because I got carried away.
Please take me to a question. It's not very.
So like I've also been monopolized when we had

(18:26):
questions. So what do we get?
There's so much honestly. That's and I'm glad you put
extra time on this one. Yeah, because and also Mr. Click
to me because see, I feel that there are a lot of time that we
are focusing I think in the world around we are focusing on
trans feminine side of the beauty parrot.
But we have not discovered till now the Mr. side of the the

(18:48):
masculine side of trans, you know, individuals.
And I wanted to do that with a lot of heart and soul into it.
And that is why we have started launching Mr. Universe Trans
this year. I guess I hope this this will
air after, you know, the 30th, because I that's the connection
that we we had here. I had been, I saw a friend

(19:12):
actually sent that to me when you had posted originally
because of my experience here, you know, building a pageant,
you know, to that size and for transmit and, and I've never
seen, honestly, an internationalpageant who had that has done
this. And that has actually said that
you, you exist and you deserve to be elevated the same way as
we are and to be able to stand alongside, you know, our sisters

(19:36):
and to finally go into that samebecause we talk about our
community like even though we are, we sometimes are in silos,
right? And we don't get to, to
highlight those issues. So I, I am really excited to, to
mention that connection of, of, you know, being able to
represent at the Mr. Universe trans pageant.
I am, but I learned a lot through this.

(19:57):
And you had told me so many things about why you're doing
what you do, what the purpose ofthe pageant is, the foundation.
Attach the pageant and I think that that's the next question.
I, you know, as we're leading into the this, the flow of it,
what is the the queen universe trust the foundation?
What is the purpose that you're trying to do with with that

(20:17):
trust with the pageant? OK, so Queen Universe Trust is
definitely, I'm the founder and we've had we have a couple of
directors as well. The basic of Queen Universe
Trust is like we have bylaws in India.
So the bylaws say that we're going to work for trans
individuals and we're going to work for climate because that is

(20:40):
the second thing that is very close to my heart because a lot
of floods happening everywhere around the world and people are
not even talking about Mother Nature and all that because
people are spending a lot of time on Internet these days.
They don't have even time to grow a tree.
So we are doing that. And 3rd is given empowerment.
So we have a division called Mrs. Division as well in Queen

(21:01):
Universe. And yeah, so of like, see by
now, like Queen Universe just islike now one year old.
But before that we registered, Iused to go to schools and
colleges. I started my journey before of
Queen Universe just in 2021, because that was the time when I
started going to school and colleges and talking about
gender equality because it's very important to tell the

(21:23):
children who are there in the school, at school level so that
they don't discriminate. And I also, you know, have I can
say I started also telling them to have a, you know, gender
neutral washroom in schools. And a lot of schools have, you
know, now in India are making that a gender neutral washroom
where nobody's judging you on your gender.
Even if you identify yourself astrans or you identify yourself

(21:45):
as, you know, anything from our community, they can use that
gender neutral washroom. So, yeah.
So that is what we are in for gender.
We are promoting gender equalityand we are promoting diversity
within the community itself. Because when we say that, you
know, beauty is only 362436, it's not like that Beauty is
everything. And you know, in our in our

(22:05):
trust for enough pageant, what matters is your story, how
powerful your story is and how powerfully you have overcome
your, you know, your problems or, or, or or, you know, like
day-to-day lives. How have you overcome your
discrimination? Because in India still, I have
seen a lot of people do coming committing suicide.
And that is not the thing. I mean, you cannot be just

(22:27):
committing suicide because people are kind of, you know,
they are after your life or theyare they want to be, you know,
they're trolling you over over online.
And I personally do a lot of this calling a lot of young kids
who are wasting that dilemma in their mind, mind whether they
should live or they should end up their life.
Because I feel that each life matter, doesn't matter whether

(22:48):
you come from our community or not, but each life matters.
So I give them consultation of the phone that what can they do
with their life. It's very interesting.
You know, the beauty world, the pageant world is insular and of
its own. And by the way, as a 75 year old
trans woman, I appreciate that you're thinking above the age of

(23:11):
50. That's great.
But for most of us and for for people in the United States who
are primarily going to be watching, I think the question
we have is, are you doing betterin India than we are in dealing
with? We thought we have made progress
for many years. We thought we were getting

(23:32):
closer to equality, to broader acceptance and then we've had
horrible reversals for for a little bit.
Is that the the same in India orare you doing better than we are
at pushing back against that? You know what, there's certain
areas that we are doing better in a way.
Like in India, the transgender community from that very old

(23:57):
age, ancient time have been worshipped.
It's they are also called demigods.
Like when you talk about Hitra community, they are demigods in
their own thing. So we see a lot of people who
come and touch our feet and say,you know, mother, give us some
blessings and all and that it's OK.
And also when we are when we didn't have this gender neutral
bosom even still now also like at airports, like airports and

(24:19):
lot of these domestic, you know,bus stands, we don't have
generator washroom. So if I want to go and use a
women washroom, people are welcoming there.
We don't have that, you know, you're using a female washroom.
Why are you using that? And you will be sent to dentist
to jail. No, I think we are better off
there. And the biggest challenge that
we are having right now, as you people are having also in in US

(24:40):
is that job opportunities, job opportunities are really less
for trans individuals, especially in trans feminine
side, trans Muslim side. Still they get, you know, a good
job, But and we don't get those jobs.
And people who claim that they're giving U.S. jobs, they
got very basic salary. Like you can talk about 200 U.S.
dollars. So what is 200 U.S. dollars in
today's no world for? We work with 30 days and you get

(25:02):
200 U.S. dollars. So a lot of people they get back
and they say, OK, no 200 U.S. dollars.
I'm earning through begging and clapping or I'm earning it
through, you know, through sex work.
Why should I waste my, you know,whole day?
And that is the biggest challenge because to mainstream
the transgender community in India, it's difficult because of
begging and clapping because I said demigods.
So people are going for begging and clapping.

(25:23):
They're going for all the auspicious occasions where they
even can get 1500 U.S. dollars for like performing at one hour.
That's it. So people don't want to leave
those jobs and come to the mainstream because mainstream
give them a very limited salary.So, so it's the same in terms of
if you want to grow up and be a doctor or a lawyer or an

(25:44):
accountant in India and your trends, you have the same
challenges that we have here that.
And very few, I mean, you know, you do not believe that we had
our first transgender Supreme Court lawyer just like a couple
of months ago. I mean, we've had very few
transgender doctors or lawyers or, you know, everybody wants

(26:06):
to, I don't know why, but everybody wants to go and become
a model. Everybody wants to become an
actor. You know, there's many, many
representation in in media, but there's not much representation
in academics, which is sad that our community doesn't go for
academics much in India. I think the biggest reason was
for that was that they were asked to leave the schools

(26:26):
because they were very feminine or they were like, you know, see
trans masculine still accept very well accepted in India, but
not trans feminine side. No, trans feminine are not
really accepted. I.
Think that, you know, this kind of hits on a a topic that I've
discussed with other people likeabout trans lives.
It's that people really when we talk about people going into

(26:47):
they want us in movies, they want us on stages or they, they
want us for consumption. If they think that everything
about our lives is performative and it's OK to have, you know,
this job where, oh, you're a model because, you know, there's
that interest and that scrutiny.But we're taking more seriously
in that respect than as academics sometimes, right?
And I feel like there's not onlythe barriers that you'd

(27:07):
mentioned just trying to walk into a place, but that
expectation that that is, you know, that's all you're going to
be there for somebody's consumption.
In American media representation, trans people are
either prostitutes, victims or criminals.
That's it. You will never see in a Series A

(27:30):
trans professional. You'll see somebody who's been
killed, someone who's committed a crime or someone who is doing
something wrong. Yeah.
Or they're the other you had mentioned.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I know.
Even what she told, just told about the trans murders have
started happening now and in India they were not used to be
trans murdered. We never used to hear about
trans murders, but trans women are getting murdered in India as

(27:52):
well. You know, I don't know why and
how come just maybe I don't knowwhat, what, what is influencing
them, the criminals, but criminals, criminals.
But what I feel is that if parents, they support their
children because if to be in academics, they have to study a
lot and for studies they need money and they need an
inspiration because our trans people are not, I think

(28:13):
different. They're also same people.
I think they have same set of drains what even the state
people have. We can also become, you know,
doctors, engineers, you know, pilots.
But all what we need is we need an opportunity and we need our
family support to help us to achieve those dreams because our
parents are the ones who can fund our education because

(28:33):
directly education needs a lot of funds.
Sure. Absolutely.
And it's, it's the probably the most important thing you can
tell to any trans kid is you maytake a bit of abuse, you may
take teasing, you may take a lot.
But if you stay in school, if you get your education, you have
a better outcome in your life. And it's correct.

(28:56):
And also a lot of people ask me what is the best time to come
out. I tell them please don't come
out till the time you're independent because you don't
know how your family is going toreact.
So it's better always to be independent financially and then
come out to your parents or to anyone you want to come out.
That's hard. That's hard.
I mean, I mean, people have to hide themselves and wear a mask

(29:18):
for for so long. And some are, are saying, no,
I'm not going to do that. But even if you come out as a
teenager or a young kid staying in school and putting up with, I
mean, I don't know about you, but you know, I was the the kid
most likely to be stuffed in a trash can somewhere.

(29:40):
OK, guess what, You know, I'm 75.
I'm still here and you will still here.
You will get through it. And if you stay in school and if
you get an education, you can succeed.
You know why you have no chance?No chance.
This is. How do you how do you leverage

(30:02):
your platform to educate and actchange beyond just, you know,
with, with modeling and and beauty standards?
How do you leverage your platform to educate in an act
change? Did I come through?
It was a little, little quiet, but it did, yeah.

(30:22):
Sorry, So what, how do you, how do you leverage your platform to
educate in an act change? OK, so basically what is
happening is that with beauty pageants you get a lot of fame
as well. And I would want people to join
beauty pageant because if they have fame, they will have power

(30:43):
to voice out their opinions. And it's very important that of
like maybe in future, some of usshould be the part of the what
we call the policy making team, whether it's in Parliament, like
in Indian Parliament or maybe it's a minister.
Because I also aim to be in politics maybe after five years
down the line, because I believethat if I can go there, even the

(31:04):
member of Parliament and I couldraise my voice and I can tell
them what exactly it is being pain to be a trans woman in
India or anywhere in the world. We can definitely bring in a
change. And I think beauty pageant does
do that thing for us. It's something that I've always
thought was so fascinating about, you know, I, I, when I
very first started, of course, I've been a performer for like
20 years as well. I never thought I would do

(31:26):
pageants and I never thought I would be that person.
But I can honestly tell you and all of the skills that I have
learned that have been useful inmy adult professional life, I
went to college, I went to grads.
All of these skills that I actually learned that were
useful and got me somewhere werethe things I learned through
pageantry. How to sit in front of a panel
of seven people who are way moreknowledgeable than you and tell

(31:46):
them your story succinctly and not be scared.
How to go up in front of people,even if a bunch of things had
gone wrong. Everyone saying things about you
like and just how to navigate a lot of difficult things.
So when you're saying this platform is, is that gateway to,
you know, what politics is very similar.
It's, you know, being in that public eye, it's being able to,
you have cameras on you and you,you may be the voice of this

(32:07):
trans community. And you get 60 seconds to and
that clip's going to be played over and over again.
You're giving people that power.And, and that's something I was
wondering about is, is some whatare some of those little, little
pieces, right, that people may not realize the connection
between pageantry and politics and and that real world?
Yes. No, actually you'd be surprised

(32:27):
to know that we did have a a girl from a pageant who said 20
years back that she will be in politics.
She was a part of feminism Indiaworld that time and she didn't
win. But then she became the member
of Cabinet ministry in India. I mean they are interconnected
very well. And she became an actor and and

(32:47):
I think we have a couple of actresses in India from
Bollywood who are the member of Parliament.
If there's anybody that knows politics here, it's Kristen.
Kristen knows all too well aboutthat.
Yeah, and, and, and Dylan, if you get 60 seconds, wow, more
like 8 or 10. But yeah, and, and in the United

(33:11):
States, we we have at some levels, we have some transgender
folks who are represented in law.
We have a couple who are now judges, but it's a very, very
small number, a very small number.
And it's very, very difficult because although we in this

(33:33):
group tend not to think of it that way, you cannot win elected
office being the transgender candidate.
You have to be the best candidate, who, by the way, is
transgender. There aren't enough transgender
people to elect anything. So you have to, you have to be
the person who is appealing to the broader society.

(33:55):
And I think that's an important,important thing because you know
what I what I define as the transgender agenda is really
simple. The transgender agenda is a
normal lifespan, full stop. Being able to do anything that
anyone else can. We're not defined by our agenda.

(34:15):
We're defined by who who we are and what we can accomplish.
So our goals are a good place toraise a family, a good job, a
good economy. What's wrong with that?
Why the? Same as everybody.
Yeah, yeah. It's what everybody wants,
right? And I want, like, I feel like
I've said this before, I want tobe the trans part of my life, to

(34:39):
be the least interesting thing about me.
I don't want that. I think that's something that,
you know, while I'm doing this, I had talked to Nas about this
and I thought it was something that was really interesting.
I want to be a role model and dothis right, this pageant and you
want to create role model, but Ididn't want to be a role model
just for trans people. What is wrong with me just being

(34:59):
a role model for people? Full.
Stop of. Course like, of course, like
that's that's it. You know, I mean, you would be
surprised to know that, but I would get a lot of DMS on my
Instagram telling that ma'am, you're inspiration for the
entire society, not just trans women.
Because see, yeah, I, I mean, yeah, that that is one thing

(35:20):
which we should be able to do itthat not just inspire the our
community itself, but inspire everybody as a whole.
Because if you want to get into politics or at a broader
spectrum, you need to be popularamong the masses for sure.
And the way to do that is to reach out and to to talk about
what's important to you, which is not just things related to

(35:43):
your gender, it's things relatedto everyone's life.
Right, this is a fun question. You said I said 60 seconds like
you said it, you might get 10, but usually and if people don't
know out there, the very first thing a lot of pageants do is to
ask you. You'll sit down.
You're of course, you shake hands.
This panel tell me about yourself and it's the hardest

(36:07):
thing. It's the hardest question answer
because like you said, what am Itelling people?
And it's the whole narrative, like the whole point of this
podcast to their love care. Like you have 60 seconds and all
these people are going to that'syour first impression that's
going to last forever. And do you want in a transplant,
even it's hard. Like you could say I'm trying to
came out and everyone's going tohave that part of the story.

(36:30):
Do you want someone else to introduce you, for example, as,
oh, this trans person, they cameout, they did.
There's like, what is your storyin those 60 seconds?
And I tell people, don't don't lead with the sad parts of your
life. Lead with what you're proud of.
Lead with how people like you want be be introduced on, you
know, getting your Academy Award.

(36:50):
Lead with that. Lead with who you are and not
the list of surgeries or the things that have happened to
you. And I think that that's that's a
big a good skill too, because I actually, this is for Chris too.
How many times do you get to seea trans person on TV and they'll
pick the 10 seconds that are themost difficult, and that's what

(37:12):
they're going to play over and over again.
And and if, if, if I had to do the, the, The Who are you?
Tell me, tell me who you are. Being trans wouldn't be in the
top part of anything. You know, I'm a parent.
I'm a lawyer. I used to be a television news
reporter and anchor. I work in politics.
And, you know, I'm trying to make my community a better

(37:35):
place. Oh, and yes, by the way, I'm
transgender. Yeah, and I find myself doing
that often. Someone will be like, aren't you
trans? And I'm like, Oh yeah, I guess I
am, you know, like I, I forget all the time because, because
here's, and this is something that I, you know, I, it's a,
it's a nice dynamic with the show that we've explored is that
who we are as people, who we getto be, who we create ourselves

(37:58):
to be. It's not inherently restricted
to just trans people. And, and I think that that's,
you know, and I, and I think that this kind of, you know,
touches back to the systems thatwe're in that, that, that, that
it seems that people only think you can be, you can, you can

(38:19):
explore your gender if you're trans.
And I don't, I don't, I think that does a disservice to
humanity because humans, we all should just be able to express
ourselves as free as we would like, free from the, the, the,
the shackles of, of the patriarchy and, and the
capitalist systems that we're in.

(38:39):
How? How does standing tall in this
in this patriarchal industry transform the narrative Nas?
Well, honestly speaking, I thinkit's not just for me, for
everybody 1 needs to stand tall because if you are not turning

(38:59):
tall, people are going to dump you and people are not going to
listen to you. It's very, very important.
And what makes me do this and every time is not just me,
because for me, I've been alwaysa very giving person.
Since as a child I've been very,very giving person.
For me, like people, a lot of people tell me that you should
always put yourself before somebody else.
But no, I put others before me because it's very important to

(39:22):
do that because see, we all livelife for ourselves, but what's
important is to live life for others.
And that is what we're going to give you happiness.
They will get many times that. I also felt, OK, I should come
suicide or something. You know, I'm, I'm not getting
like it's enough now. I should just give up.
No, the second time I think if Igive up, I think there'll be 100
more people who give up. I have to live for them.

(39:43):
I have to live for them then. And of course I do do.
If I if a lot of people think that I'm a role model to them, I
cannot let something bad happen to me mentally and physically.
I have to be strong enough to stand tall for my people, for my
community and for everybody who loves me because I have pets.
I got two dogs who love me very much.

(40:04):
I've got three birds who love mevery much.
I need to be for them. I need to be there.
I need to be there for people who love me, people who hate me
as well. I need to be there for them also
because let them see me growing.Let them let them see me that I
am becoming a woman of substance, a woman of you know,
somebody who's like being adoredby so many people.
I let them get jealous and that's what.
Keeps you motivating all the time.

(40:26):
I love that let them get jealousof me, all these people that I
maybe that's a little part of that.
I just so you mentioned that they just be strong for others,
but I know that there's moments,but we're not what I know that
we all have that. What do you say to yourself when

(40:49):
you're you, you're to yourself when you're struggling and and
don't feel like you're going to be strong.
So I think there's a lot of us right now that we're feeling
that. So what would what do you say to
yourself to keep yourself going?Well, I tell myself this two
shall pass. You know I say that.
OK, good times. One there.
The bad time will also fly. It's also a matter of time.
That's it. I think time is everything.

(41:10):
That's what I tell it is this 2 shall pass.
That's enough to say to yourself.
I didn't want to monopolize anything.
I just, I feel like like we had gone back and forth in our
little WhatsApp conversations. There'll be 4 minute tech like
just talking back and forth and there's so much to talk about.

(41:31):
And I guess I will bring it backa little bit to how we know each
other through this, this pageantand kind of what Nas had
mentioned, you know, wanting to do the Mr. side of things is
that we see a lot of stories, wesee a lot of platforms like
this. And there is something a
similarity I see with the politics and everything.

(41:52):
And I see a lot if Kristen can jump in and anybody who sees
stuff in the USA, lot of the people who have positions are
transmitted. We have given them platforms, we
have given tools. But I feel like transmitter in
this interesting space where andyou know, it's a hard
conversation where we grow up 20some years of our live and as
soon as we step in it, we don't we it's like we have to step

(42:15):
back again, right. And I I respect that, but but to
be in a space where somebody said to me, you deserve this
too. I just, I just want to were
there fears about putting the the misters in?
Did some of the girls, for example, steal that this would
take away from them? Because I feel like I never want

(42:39):
to do that as a person. I've stepped into a place of
male privilege, right? And I I was there some hesitants
on your board or anything with that?
Or was it just like, you know, we all deserve It was an easy
decision because maybe it was and maybe I'm overthinking.

(42:59):
No, no, no. I think that's very important
when we talk about equality. Let's you should have equality
among trans women and trans men as well.
If they have platform for trans women, why won't we have
platform for trans men as well? We should need to hear their
stories as also because we mightthink on this side of the bridge
that oh, fine, the things might be really good for them, but we

(43:20):
don't know the stories. We have to hear them.
We have to really listen to them, their stories as well.
I mean, there's so many stories about them and there's so many
challenges. I think that they also face a
lot of challenges when it comes to especially using, for
example, public washrooms. And we really need to hear their
stories. I think we need to hear their
stories a lot. I think those that, that trans
men in a in a way have a unique advantage in that, unlike trans

(43:47):
women or many trans women who don't blend into society as
well. It's what what people talk of as
passing a phrase that I will never use, that word that I will
never use because you're not trying to pass yourself off as
something, you're being yourself.
But but trans men blend in. They may be on the average, a

(44:07):
little shorter than CIS men, butyou're not going to pick a trans
man out walking down the street.It's just not going to happen.
You have a lot of yeah, a lot ofus have that choice, right, Who
are on on testosterone to do that.
And I found honestly though, this is something that yes, I do
that. But when we're in our own

(44:28):
spaces, when I out myself as a trans man, I suddenly feel like
I get pushed back. You know, even when I go into my
my spaces here, clubs, Oh, I'm not seen as equals.
And I'm going to be talked to a certain way as soon as people
know that. And there's something about
among trans men. And because we know we can walk
around the world doing that. There are a lot of us.

(44:49):
We will wear the flag, we'll have the tattoos, we will have
that. So because I, it's a choice to
reject that privilege for a lot of us.
And, and, and I think that it's a responsibility for me.
And that's that's one of the things that I had talked about
with Nas so much was I'm a transman who has a good job at a

(45:10):
good, I'm a good place in my life in the United States and
I'm represent, I'm going there to represent a country.
It's doing a lot of really, honestly shitty things or trans
people. It affects us here and it
affects people all over the world.
And going there to reject a lot of what look, IA lot of that.

(45:31):
I, I think that's a conversationwe need to have and it's not
just having a platform right as a transmitter, but not as giving
this what I think is an opportunity to say, here's the
model of masculinity. I want to, I want to be not just
for trans, but to reject all of this, this nonsense and to stand
there and be there for people who may be, you know, trans
women who are not said, be that person who walks in those spaces

(45:51):
and amplifies their voices when people don't feel safe.
That's the responsibility of themasculine that I think giving
that platform for me. And I think that that's
something that I wanted to highlight that you're doing is
amazing because it's not just hey, you have struggles and we
want to amplify that. But what is the power of like
that support swapping? What can we do for each other in
these spaces? And that's what I think that I

(46:14):
I'm hoping to do so that you mentioned and I'm leading into a
question this I promise the platform of man on a mission.
And what is that for the advocacy part of the pageant?
And I just want to what does that mean, you know, as a trans
woman, like what kind of man as a role model to you, to you and
everything, or to your community?
Like this is the kind of man I like.

(46:36):
To we, we have often heard this term called beauty with purpose
that Miss World is all about. So similarly, our organization
is also about raising charities for people in India, I mean, who
don't have money for education for that matter, or who don't
have enough money to even survive.
Because in during COVID, we saw that there, there were trans

(46:59):
people, majora people who used to on like everyday, on an
everyday basis. This they didn't still get any
jobs that time because they wereconfiding in their home.
They were isolated. They couldn't go out and on
their bread and butter. So what we did was we raised
funds for them. We raised funds and we bought
confectioneries for them and we bought day-to-day food for them.
Similarly, you know, the our pageant for Western University,

(47:22):
we have a man with mission project.
When man with mission is that anadvocacy project that is close
to your heart? It can be anything.
It doesn't. You mean that you are a trans
person. You have to work with a trans
person. You can choose for anything.
You can choose for working for dog, working for animals,
working for nature, working for women, empowerment, working for
gender equality, anything that comes to close to your heart.

(47:43):
I mean do that and be a role model for the society because we
as human beings should give to to society as well.
It doesn't matter how society treated us, but what matters how
we treat them matters more. So we have to do some kind of
advocacy work because that is also is a is a mission before
for every man or a woman to bring happiness to others.

(48:05):
And that is what this advocacy project makes you do, that makes
you bring smiles to a lot of theunder people, especially in
India. I have, you know, my
relationship to my gender and myunderstanding of myself has
shifted over the years and I and, and, and I, and I wonder

(48:31):
how well I, I, I can understand that from my perspective, how
the culture and society has shifted my understanding of
myself and how I present and howI navigate and communicate to
the world. How has your identity evolved as
you've navigated society in India, which is a very different

(48:51):
experience for me in the States.What has your experience been?
See, we as human beings, we always change with time.
I mean, we talk about when we were zero to 10 years, we were
some other person. From 10 to 20 we were other 2030
we were other 40 to 50, we were other person.
Right now I'm going to turn 49 this year.

(49:12):
For me, the world has changed a lot like what I should think
about world earlier to hate themI used to really feel Oh my God,
they all wished people they're bad people No, for me, no.
Right now what matters to me is to bring happiness to other
people. That's what matters to me
because I have experienced that when I go on a road and I see a
beggar or I see somebody who's hungry, I just buy them, you

(49:35):
know, some food and I give them.It makes me feel very happy.
Earlier, it used to be the time it used to be like me, I, me
myself. I always keep thinking about me.
Oh, I'm a trans woman. I should look very pretty.
I should wear this makeup on. Or, you know, for that matter,
like me. You and me are talking one, We
had a brute interview. Like there was an interview
channel and there's a brute in France, France and also in

(49:57):
India. Brute India, I was doing an
interview. Of course I put on a lot of
makeup on. I'm talking about 2022.
Yeah. So I put a lot of makeup on and
got an evening gown and I sat infront of the camera at a look
next interview. But now we're with you.
Like I'm not wearing a makeup also, I'm wearing a traditional
Indian outfit. What people wear in everyday
basis. Because now my, my personality

(50:17):
has changed. I want to show people who I have
truly. I don't want to be behind a mask
like a makeup or something though I have got nothing
against it. But I, that is what I have
become. I have become a person who's
more giving. Now I want to give to the
society because I believe I'm at50, I've lived more than half of
my life and whatever life I havelived, I just want to use it for

(50:39):
others, for for others upliftment, for others happiness
and that's what I'm doing right now.
That's great. And it's, I think everybody can
relate to it. You know, we, we change as
people, as we grow and trans people are no different than
anybody else. Who you were as a teenager is

(51:02):
not who you are when you're grown.
Hopefully at. Least for me.
Some would say some of us regress, but that's it's a whole
different discussion. And that, again, it's not
exclusive to people, but it's, it's a funny, I'm not saying
funny, but I, I, I'm with Caroline too.
Like I but when I think it's something that that it might be

(51:24):
a sort of universal experiences like that, we said we, we
transition and we feel like we have to front like heavy load
upfront. OK, I, I got to perform and do
this. I got to I'm, I'm transitioning.
I got to be this kind of mess. I'm going to reject this.
And it would, it's not long, though, before you start to be
able to like, you know what? I didn't transition just to fit
another box exactly. I, I didn't and then you just

(51:49):
get more comfortable. And as you get more comfortable
in yourself, like you said, things evolve.
You start to open the doors thatyou had closed off in your own
mind about yourself. And like, I, I think that's
something that that you kind of hit on like as I get older and
as we all get like there's just an even deeper understanding and
a lot more doors open. I definitely feel that way

(52:10):
because I feel myself drifting from the stereotypical, if you
will, ways of, of, of presentingas, as a trans woman.
And because, you know, here I was in my 20s trying to figure
out who it was. I, I didn't like labels.
I abandoned those. I was freeing myself.
And then, you know, I still struggled because I didn't have

(52:33):
this identity. And then I found the trans
community and they welcomed me in.
But then after a few years, I found myself hearing through a
nerd term. I, I wasn't trying to be a man
as I was in my teens and 20s now.
I was trying to be, you know, and, and, and it felt like,
well, why can't I just be me? And often times there's a lot in

(52:56):
the community and I and I recognize because there's
safety. We want to be accepted.
We want to blend in. So then you see somebody that's
like, well, you know, I don't like wearing makeup.
You know, the only thing that I have is a little filter that I
put onto the Zoom call that makes it look like, you know,
that's all I do. And, and I don't wear makeup.
One, because I don't know how todo it.
Two, I touch my face too much. And three, I don't think that I

(53:17):
should have to because. You don't have to.
No, really, because who am I doing?
You know, on the other hand, others of us, I mean, you will
never see me without a full faceof makeup because I would scare
little children. I so, you know, speaking on, on
those, you know, the, the way we're, we're supposed to model
ourselves, the, the, the public presence that we're supposed to

(53:39):
maintain, you know, because you'll see that a lot,
especially in social media, you'll see people say, well,
you're not, you're not, you know, you're, you're, oh,
you're, you don't wear makeup, you're not, you know, that's
like, you know, all of these, all of these things that are,
that are, you know, being held against us.
How do you Nas, how do you, how does your modeling and your
public presence matter beyond just beauty?

(54:02):
And what do you hope that it models for others?
OK. So I want to take you back to
early 2000 tens, like we didn't have any trans model in India.
Then when I started modeling andwhen I went into modeling and
when I made it big, especially in 2019 when I made a history of
winning a same talent child three times in a row.

(54:24):
There were many, many trans people who came out who
especially after COVID and we had also 377 in India that
criminalized LGBT people in India, lesbian, gay and
bisexual. They were, they were like, you
know, I mean, it was a taboo. It was it was a criminal act.
If you weren't caught up in any action with same sex, you could

(54:46):
have been sent to jail for 14 years.
And yeah, that rule got rolled out in 2018.
And all this happened because we, we had representation of
trans people and gay people and yeah, everybody we had, we had
representation. Our government started seeing
us, started watching us. So visibility became very, very
important aspect. And post COVID in 2021 and 22,

(55:10):
we saw a blast of people, our community, people who just came
out. And I meet a lot of people on a
day-to-day basis who come and tell me from my community that,
look, I'm you are our role model.
You know, we really look up to you.
And when I was there, I mean, I,when I had to look for an
inspiration in India, I had no one to look after because we
didn't have representation, for that matter.

(55:31):
And I had to look at maybe Kathleen Chana or Lavonne Cox
for that matter, because they were the people whom I knew, I
mean, knew from Internet. And those are the people whom I
looked up to. And yeah, so things have changed
a lot ever since they have been representation about me as a
model or me as a beauty queen. A lot of girls in India want to
become beauty Queens. And, and the best part about it

(55:53):
is Miss Universe now has, especially in a lot of
countries, they had a lot of trans representatives who were
there. Last year for Miss Universe
India, we had three girls who are in top 51.
This year we had two girls who are in top 51 of Miss Universe
India. So I think yeah, so definitely
Pleasants are helping a lot of girls to come out of their shell
and come out of their comfort zones and accepting them just we

(56:17):
are women and we are here to stay.
I. Think it also helps CIS girls as
well so. They are competing against this
girls. Yeah, I mean, that's really hats
up to. And also in a lot of states in
India, we have a trance directorlike we have my, you know, my
friend, she owns 4 states as a state director like Delhi, Uttar

(56:39):
Pradesh and Punjab and Uttarakhand, like 4 states she's
heading. She's a trans woman herself.
And also the very fact that MissUniverse is headed by one of the
trans women, I mean, and JKN from JKN Google, Google group,
she is there. I mean, that's such a proud and
for us that, you know, Assist Pageant is owned by a trans
woman. It's, it's something that I've,

(57:02):
I've, we get asked a lot. I think on the pageant side,
it's like, aren't you just reinforcing, right, these, these
stereotypes? And I think that it's something
that, you know, how do we respond to that question?
Because I could, we could go on for an hour, but what's the
easy, what is the quick way to say like, how do is that
actually not reinforce? How does it challenge it?
Yeah, but why is it? Whoa, hang on.
That's a legit conclusion. This representation of

(57:24):
femininity or masculinity is somehow inappropriate.
And for some people, that stereotype got to be a
stereotype because that's how we're comfortable.
Yeah, and what 1 is a very sad part about our trans women is
like people expect us to look like a woman.
I mean, which is practically notpossible, you know, without

(57:45):
doing surgeries or either you come out or either you start
transitioning in your then also you can up to look up to certain
extent like a woman. It's a very sad story that
people expect trans women to look like women, which is a
very, very, I mean, I don't likethat comparison at all that why
are we compared to women all thetime?
Why the beauty when people say, oh, you're a beautiful trans

(58:06):
women and they they for them, beauty means the trans women is
beautiful only because she's looking like a woman.
I mean, that is one thing that Iwant to eradicate.
And I, and I've often felt that way myself, you know, is
comparing myself to that of, of cisgendered women.
And, you know, that's kind of where, you know, in the last
year, I realized that I was doing the same thing that I did

(58:30):
when I was, when I was living, you know, presenting as a males
that I was trying to just adhereto a standard that I just
couldn't. And it's not right.
And I don't think it's fair that, that we hold up to that.
So now what, you know, winning Miss World Diversity 3 times in
a row and being titled India's first trans beauty queen.

(58:52):
How does that feel to have that that that weight of that title
on you and how does that affect you personally?
Yeah, definitely. It did affect me in a positive
manner that today for that matter, people just know like
already I remember when I just was very new to modeling
industry and I had to hire APR company that time.

(59:14):
But today I don't even have to hire APR company.
People just give me a call like,oh, we're talking about, we're
talking from Times Group, we want to take your interview.
And when these interviews are published, junk gets readed.
They get inspired a lot. But the sad part is that you can
say sad part or you can say pluspart that they don't let me be
weak. They tell me no, you cannot be

(59:37):
weak as a trans Joshi or as a public figure.
I can't express my tears in public because if I do that, a
lot of my followers were there on Instagram.
Like luckily I got 77,500 followers on Instagram.
They're going to feel weak. And I'm followed with a lot of
trans women in India, a lot of trans females in India.
They follow me, my, my, my sisters and my daughters.

(59:57):
I don't want them to, you know, I mean to, to feel sad and to
feel weak because two, I think, I think 2-3 days ago, one of our
sisters who was, who was into transitioning, she commits
suicide. She commits suicide because, you
know, it's in the, as I told youabout the neighborhood neighbor
is to taunt their families. That why, how come your boy is
becoming a woman? So he commits suicide.

(01:00:19):
And that is what I don't have todo.
I have to inspire girls. Hey girls, if I am there if I
can. Can be, you know, somebody who's
a trans woman and doesn't look like a woman.
I'm fine. It's OK.
Let's let's live and let's live not for other people.
Let's live for ourselves. Yeah.
I mean, that is one of the most negative things that happens
with me is like, I can't myself many times, but that's OK.

(01:00:39):
That much I can do for my people.
Why not? I can do that.
We all have moments in life where we feel like we want to
cry, we want to get shattered, we want to really, really give
up. But but being a public figure in
India, you can't do that. I think that's really important

(01:01:00):
that that that's, you know, thateverybody, sis or trans is going
to have those moments. But for trans people, it can be
much more impactful. Yeah.
Because there's I. Know so more often also more
often we all break down a lot. I think it's more often because
of discrimination from family and from the world we we

(01:01:22):
breakdown more often than assistperson.
Sure. And there isn't there isn't the
broader support network that youcan can lean on.
I mean, you know, here in in theUnited States, it's one of the
real the crimes of the Trump administration, one of the many
is that they have defunded the trans suicide hotline.

(01:01:48):
You know, they've they've cut back funding for programs like
that. And reaching out to those who
are feeling who are in that moment is that much harder as a
result. And I think it's wonderful that
you in India are that example ofa trans woman or a trans person

(01:02:10):
who has the strength and the theability to reach out and say,
hey, if you're struggling, there's a path forward for you.
Look, here I am. And that's vital.
That's. Vital What is What is one story
you still want to tell through your advocacy?

(01:02:33):
Oh, you know what, when I was a kid, I remember I read a story
about the spider who won't climbwall.
He tried for seven times and he failed.
And that is one story that I want to tell everybody that you
will be failing to take failure as lesson to success because
failures are also good. They teach us a lot of lessons.

(01:02:54):
And it's not all the all the first time you're going to be
superstar. You have to work hard.
You have to work really, really hard for success and keep
working hard. That is one story that I want to
tell everybody about a spider who who who just climbed the
wall on the eighth attempt. And that's I think that's the
the story, like I always go backto that one UN quote.

(01:03:17):
That's like, you know, if you haven't failed, it means you
haven't tried enough, you know, and that's and but it's also
that challenge you mentioned, like you don't want to as
transparent, you don't want to be weak, right?
You don't want to be, you don't want to be the one that that
they use as the example O and that's the only part they
remember. So there's that, that that
balance, right? We had that internal struggle

(01:03:37):
right. Yeah.
What were, was there a defining moment in your, in your life
that made you realize that you you'd want to move?
What was that moment that made you decide that you were no
longer hiding and you were goingto shine and, and and and
blossom into who you've become? Where was that moment in your

(01:03:58):
life? So what happened was that I was
into sex work and there was a time that I was coming to
modelling the mainstream societybecause being modeled, I was not
just being hired because of our transporter.
I was in model and I didn't haveany genders.
So there were people who said, Imean, no, if you're coming to

(01:04:18):
mainstream, we are going to tellyou the world that you were a
sex worker once and you won't beaccepted and you won't be given
no pageant because pageants really, really want girls with
high moral value. And they say that you have never
had to have a sex work. So I was like, come on.
Hey, man. I mean, if you are going to say
things about me before that I'm going to tell people.

(01:04:39):
So when I remember the first time I gave an interview to a
press, I told them, yes, I was sex worker and I was a proud sex
worker because your society did not give me a job to 9:00 to
5:00 and I had to survive. At least I didn't do theft and I
don't and I didn't, you know, doany robbery.
I sold my body and I had my foodfor that.
And that was the defining moment.

(01:04:59):
Yes, I this is what who I am. Accept me or reject me.
I'm here. That's.
It's one of those things that that always gets me.
Like there's a lot of these standards we see.
It's not just a pageant, but that moral compass that it seems
like we're even helped to something more than than anyone
else's. Like, why is our moral failing

(01:05:21):
so much worse than anyone else'smoral, quote UN quote.
Right. Yeah.
I'll talk about having to adhereto an artificial standard.
Yeah. And it's but I love that, you
know, the moment you said is challenging it right up front
and it's like, here is everything that you can throw at
me and I'm going to put it on the table for you.

(01:05:42):
Go ahead. Like that's that's the power.
That is the Power Nas. How?
How can we best uplift trans leadership, especially in
countries with limited representation?
And unfortunately, I feel like we're our country, the United

(01:06:04):
States, is getting to a point where our representation is
being limited de facto by our policies and administrations and
government in itself. So how can we best uplift trans
leadership, especially in countries with limited or
ongoing? See, as I think we mentioned

(01:06:26):
that it's very important to haveeducation and we are educated,
well educated and we don't give up in schools that will OK, I am
not going to school because I'm always I'm, you know, I'm being
tortured or I'm being molested. No, you should go to school.
Don't give up in school. And education is very important.
And unless, until we're going tohave education, we cannot have
leaders, you know, for leaders also, we need to have education

(01:06:49):
of our society, our problems, you know, and also, and apart
from having the, the, the knowledge about problems, we
need to have the, the, the, the answer to solutions.
If we cannot provide solutions to the world, what are we going
to do with the leadership? So I think it's very important
for us and for everybody to promote education.
I think we are going to promote education.
We will go Miles. Education is a big thing for me

(01:07:12):
and I, I feel like that's a separate big part of what I'm
going to be working on for the pageant.
But we'll, we'll get to that. I wanted to ask because of all
the work you're doing and the platform that you have.
One of the reasons I asked, I really wanted you to be able to
talk with us to, for me to also ask you to tell everyone how

(01:07:32):
they can support the work you'redoing, how people can get
involved, how they can make whatyou're trying to build even
bigger. Because I know there's a lot of
challenges faced internationallytrying to, to help.
So how can people help right now?
How could people, if they want to join, get involved and what
can they do to make it the success you want it to be?
Well, I think small steps at a time can do a lot of work.

(01:07:56):
And they must think that they have to do 1 good bead in one
day. Like, you know, one, they should
make up a point that today I'm going to bring smile to
somebody, maybe by feeding a burger or by feeding any, you
know, anything, maybe a cup of tea to a poor person.
And that doesn't cost millions, that cost you bucks.
And yeah. And that is what 1 should do.

(01:08:17):
And one should think about society as a whole.
One should not think about I, memyself.
One should actually think that, oh, this is I am the part of
society. And one should not have hatred
to the society. One should actually feel that we
are part of one whole family because the entire world is not
one family. Thanks to Internet today, we are
on a different time zones. I am in India, you guys are in

(01:08:39):
US. We're still talking on an on the
on this Internet. And it looks like we are all in
one room. And I think, yeah, we all, we
need to, we all need to really, really think about others before
we think about ourselves. And we should make a mission
that for a, for a really smallermissions, like even like for a
day, like tomorrow is the day that I am going to feed 5 needy

(01:09:00):
people. Or tomorrow is the day when I,
if I have the money, I will sponsor a child's education.
Because when you're educating a child, you're educating the, the
nation or maybe a girl child forthat part.
Because in India, a lot of girl children also, they do, they,
they are deprived of education. So I've been, we're talking
about when you talk about genderequality.
So we're talking about in India right now, trans equality, we

(01:09:20):
forget trans equality. We don't have women equality
either till now. I mean, we don't have we don't
have that you know, like like inBollywood pay scales of a female
lead is less much lesser than the male lead, you know, but
women are working towards it. They are getting now I mean some
of the girls in Bollywood are getting more paid than a male

(01:09:41):
lead. But that is not going to work.
We have to really, really think that we have to apply changes,
which is not just temporary, which is like for life term.
And then and considering everybody equal is one of the
big things that one can, you know, I mean, one can do to
bring change in the society. I think we should all try to

(01:10:03):
respect your trans man, trans woman, man, woman, animals.
Let's treat everybody equally, for that matter.
I know you said last question, but this is something that you
touched on that I have to ask because it's something that
we're seeing a lot in the US right now on push back of sort
of we have a little bit of the same like women are not exactly

(01:10:25):
equal in our society either, butthere's a certain segment of the
population that feels that by including trans women is taking
away from real does that. Is that something that you see
in India as well? Or is there more of a solidarity
between trans and women in Indiathan here?
Yeah, I mean, we do have that thing.

(01:10:47):
But in sports, like in sports they are not allowed, are not
yet allowed in sports. Well, about talking about other
factors like talk about fashion,talk about beauty, their trans
men do get equal caution trees and when we talk about
corporates, no, not again. And women and transfer men,
they'll have to do a lot of, youknow, I mean, there's a lot of

(01:11:09):
strict, strict competition. And trans women are given only
the job, which are like basic level jobs.
And yeah, and they're not going to be promoting it as CEO for
the next couple of, I think, decades.
So it is going to take a lot of time.
But yeah, we do face, you know, I mean, discrimination between

(01:11:30):
women and trans women, definitely.
You know, I thought of your whenyou're brought up the story of
the spider that you had written when you were younger.
I thought about how it had failed 7 times and then it, you
know, it finally made it throughand it made me think about in my
own story how, you know, I fail and I fail and I fail.

(01:11:52):
But I, I begin to succeed it when I let my community in to
help build me. And I think that, you know, so
much of all this podcast itself has only grown because of the
community. And I think it's specifically in
the United States, our, our culture, our policy, our world

(01:12:15):
has been pushed to alleviate or not alleviate, but to eliminate
culture, to eliminate these third spaces together.
And so, you know, I think to your story failing and failing
and failing. And I think it's, it's, it's
with the help of community that that we, we get ourselves out of
the poverty, out of the, the, the disastrous places that we're

(01:12:36):
in that the system put upon us. And I, and I feel that community
is, is what has saved me, has what brought me out of deep dark
places. It's, it's what's helping me,
it's going to help me survive these next few, you know, years.
And specifically this month. And I, I, I, I, I want to, I'd

(01:13:01):
like to ask, you know, what doescommunity look like for you?
You're, you're modeling that now.
What's the vision for, you know,decades down the line?
What it, what do you envision itto, to be?
What kind of world do you see that, that, that, that that

(01:13:24):
builds upon the work that you'vebeen doing now?
So I would tell you that we havechanged.
We have seen the change in the society in India in past decade,
like what we saw in 2015 and 2025.
There's a lot of difference. A lot of difference means in a

(01:13:45):
way that now some parents in India are supporting their
children in transitioning, they're supporting them.
We have a lot of influencers from our community who have come
forward on Instagram and on social media and they are owning
good money. They get they're getting good
collaboration. Also when we spoke about when I

(01:14:06):
said that beauty is 1 industry which has made us inclusive.
So the kind of collaboration that a woman influencer of
beauty category will get. Even trans people are getting
the same kind of water collaboration or paid
collaboration. They are getting the the same
kind of thing. And in years to come, I will see
that we will have a lot and lot of leaders from our society and

(01:14:30):
community. And I feel that the
discrimination that we're talking about today will be much
less, so much, much less so in the coming future because I have
seen a terrific change in 10 in past 10 years in India.
I think in the next 10 years is going to be even going to get
better. Sounds good, can you bring it

(01:14:50):
over here? I I have to ask, this is a
really important question. What is as?
What is your favorite meal and why?
Favorite meal? Hard questions, right?
Very hard question. No, I think my favorite meal is

(01:15:12):
like home cooked food. We cook rice and we cook lentils
and all that. That's my favorite food.
I'm very simple. I'm a very simple human being.
I'm modeling, I'm modeling. When I'm I'm there on the stage,
I'm a different woman all together.
But when I'm home, I'm very simple person.
I absolutely understand that clearly being, you know, people

(01:15:33):
think that that patch, it is definitely just putting
something on to be on the stage.But I am a very that's I'm a
very boring person. I'm sitting at home playing
video games with my dogs and I'min a tank, like I'm being able
to do that. So I related to the question,
what do you think of American food?

(01:15:54):
American food, Well, delicious. We do have a lot of American
food in India. But yeah, I mean, what do I say?
It's going to be controversial, but then it really makes us put
on a lot of weight because we overeated.
Like in India we have got burgers and all of we really
want to have it. But then yeah, but it's
delicious. The food is good.
The only thing is, yes, it because we don't work out so

(01:16:15):
much that there's not much happening in terms of we talk
about fitness sector and for thecommunity itself.
People are not joining gyms and all.
So we put on a lot of weight by having American food.
I like banginbarta. Banginbarta is one of my
favorite dishes so I I really have enjoyed our time today.

(01:16:37):
I think this has been a beautiful conversation.
I, I want to thank our audience for being here, for tuning in
week after week and, and just showing up because, you know,
that's, that's how we're making it through.
That's how we will make it through each other.
You know, there, this world is very vast and it's very big.

(01:16:57):
But I think that through all of the horrors and, and, and the
darkness out there that I think it's each other that, that that
keeps me going. It's, it's, it's, it's all we
have. All we have is each other.
And so thank you audience for being here.
And for those that are listeningthat would like to be a part of
this, this program and, and havetheir voice heard, please e-mail

(01:17:19):
us at transnarrativepodcast@gmail.com.
That's transnarrativepodcast@gmail.com.
Or if you're on Kristen's live, you can just message her and
then I'm kidding. So again, thank you audience and
Dylan, thank you so much for being here.
It's good to have you on your first episode as guest Co host.

(01:17:39):
Thank you so much for being here.
You're welcome. I'm glad I gave you a lot of
editing work to do for the firstone.
That's OK. That's that's OK.
We've got. That in don't tell them, take it
out. No, I won't forget.
I'll forget that part anyways, audience, you'll hear you'll be
like I forget so no, because then I'll it's anyway.

(01:18:00):
So and Kristen, Kristen birdie, my goodness, I I love having you
here. Thank you so much for being here
with me. I can't wait to have you on
again, which you know, I'll I'llmessage you about here like
right after the like. Oh, I already got the date
dropped over so and Nas Joshi. My goodness, this has been I, I,

(01:18:22):
I love this so much. This is so uplifting.
And I just so thankful to, to have this space to gather with
the community and, and tell our stories and, and just be present
and not have to be anything other than ourselves.
So Dylan, any final thoughts, comments, or any questions you'd
like to leave us with? Actually, just kind of a final

(01:18:45):
thought, if anybody wants to, you know, follow Nas on
Instagram or follow the journey of this pageant or follow
anything she's doing, there's there's a lot, there's a pageant
page that you know, Miss Universe Queen and there's Nas
Instagram. But please follow this journey,
see what's coming in India. The pageant will be in December

(01:19:07):
and there'll be so much more. If you want to find out how to
be involved, just reach out because there's so many ways you
could support the work that she's doing and more.
There's always more story to tell.
So I just think that that's the final thought.
And if you'd like to learn more about Naz, you can visit her
very own Wikipedia page. Also, Kristen has a Wikipedia

(01:19:28):
page too. Speaking of Kristen, any final
thoughts, comments, or concerns you'd like to leave us with?
No. I'm trying to figure out how to
how I can get to India for the pageant but I don't think it
will happen. We got to work on some
documentary grants there. That's what we're saying.
This would be a great journey tofollow.
Yes, well, you know, everyone really, thank you so much.

(01:19:49):
This has been such a pleasure. Thank you, thank you so much.
Thank you, thank you. And, and as we, as we depart
today, I would just like to know, Nas, what message would
you like to leave our audience with to carry in our hearts for
the rest of this week and for the rest of our lives?
Well only one thing which I wantto tell is that never give up

(01:20:13):
because there were many times inmy life which I want to give up
but I just here because I thought that I will never give
up no matter what. Good times they don't stay, bad
time they don't stay there like seasons they will come and go.
So don't just feel sad. Be happy no matter what.
Just be happy all the time.

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Naaz Joshi: Glamour, Grit & Global Impact | Trans Visibility, Victory & Authenticity

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Naaz Joshi: Glamour, Grit & Global Impact | Trans Visibility, Victory & Authenticity