Building A New Bitcoin Political System With Erik Cason

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
We need to approach Bitcoin in this different and radical way
that's really trying to educate people about the political power
that's found in Bitcoin just as opposed to the economic power.
And you know, in the theme of ofthe show, like to me, that's the
real transformation of value is when you get that like, yeah,
Bitcoin absolutely has an economic value, but like the

(00:21):
social and political value has ahigher one than the economic
value. Hello, I am Cody Allingham, and
this is the Transformation of Value, a place for asking
questions about freedom, Bitcoin, and creativity.
My guest today is Eric Cason, author of Crypto Sovereignty,
The Encrypted political Philosophy of Bitcoin.

(00:41):
Eric is a regular speaker and essayist focusing on the social,
political, and philosophical aspects of Bitcoin.
Eric, welcome back to the show. Thanks for having me back on.
I hope we won't be disturbed by any cats or babies this time.
You know, I just finished reading Hunter S Thompson's 1971
Fair and Loathing in Las Vegas. And if I may quote Thompson as

(01:05):
he laments on the idealism of the hippies in the 1960s.
There was a fantastic universal sense that whatever we were
doing was right, that we were winning.
And that, I think, was the handle that sense of inevitable
victory over the forces of old and evil.
Not in any mean or military sense.
We didn't need that. Our energy would simply prevail.

(01:27):
We had all the momentum. We were riding the Crest of a
high and beautiful wave. So now, less than five years
later, you can go up on a steep hill in Las Vegas and look West
and with the right kind of eyes,you can almost see the high
watermark, that place where the wave finally broke and rolled
back. Eric Bitcoin 2025 Las Vegas What

(01:50):
sense do you have? Yeah, there's a bit of a like a
meta fractal in that. It's funny because being at Las
Vegas last week for the Bitcoin conference, specifically being
on psychedelics at the Bitcoin conference, yeah, there was a
bit of that, that energy, I hateto say it, but it was mostly

(02:14):
sycophants that were there. You know, that being said, like
I, I think we're using them morethan they're using us, but
they're, there's, there's an interesting questionability
right now where I'm kind of likewho's like who's fucking who?
And I think there's a lot of deep mutualism right now.

(02:34):
I'm pretty sure Bitcoiners come out on top, but I think this SBR
and like corporate treasury thing is relatively dangerous to
the vision. But that that really is, is a a
greater question about how Bitcoiners are going to let this
play out in the long run. And I think it's really

(02:56):
interesting that the the storageof narrative value versus the
exchange value, I think it's starting to become a bit
contentious. And it's not to say that there
isn't good overlap there. And that's kind of why we've
found ourselves with strange bedfellows.
But yeah, there's a lot of weirdstuff going on right now and

(03:17):
that like, I'm finding myself inbed with some people that I
didn't expect to be and I find myself not willing to get into
bed with some people that I would have thought I would be
willing to do that with. Interesting you you said to the
Las Vegas Sun you believe, oh you were quoted than the Las
Vegas Sun is saying you believe Bitcoin is entering a dangerous
period with the industry gettingclose to government officials,

(03:40):
but COIN is establishing their own party is the only way to
maintain a radical truly third party political idea.
This seems to though feed still into the idea of party politics
of the so-called system. What are your thoughts on that?
It absolutely does. Unfortunately the son I wasn't
able to sit down with them and have a longer dialogue.
Maybe I should have they reachedout to me for for comment, but I

(04:02):
didn't want to because I particularly newspapers like
that, I have much less trust. It's funny, 'cause like a Wired
journalist reached out and I didspeak with them 'cause I feel a
little bit better about that. I couldn't pinpoint why exactly.
So when I say party politics, like I, while it would look like

(04:26):
the framework of something like a traditional Republican or
Democratic Party, like I, I'm actually speaking about a
different form of the political insofar of that like whatever
third party I'd want. It's like being voted in.
Like that's not the objective. Like getting voted in is the
validation that we would have like the leading kind of

(04:49):
premise. But like, this is very much
built off of the thesis that Vladimir V Lenin presented in
State and Power, which was like his book that was pretty much on
like how he was going to organize the Russian Revolution
and do that. And in that he first presents
his theory of vanguardism. And what I think is interesting
is that like, we're essentially hijacking a Leninist communist

(05:12):
ideology, like, for sort of the most radical form of like,
capitalism that you could ask for.
And I think in that, like, the idea of building the party is
explicitly not to be like a third party to get voted in to
like, play the same game, but it's more of like we're a
radical alternative. The only reason you're electing
us is to essentially validate that like, you want us to

(05:33):
overthrow the government in a revolutionary capacity.
Like the sort of party that I'm talking about.
What I'd want to do is actually focus explicitly in only on
states rights. And I would want to try to get
through 35 different American state legislations, essentially
an article to amend the United States Constitution to end the

(05:56):
Federal Reserve unilaterally andpush all monetary making power
to individual states. And so Article 5 of the United
States Constitution has a clausein it that states can actually
ratify and amend the United States Constitution directly
with no federal oversight. And that's never actually been

(06:17):
done in all of American history.Anytime that we've gotten close
to passing an amendment that way, the federal legislature has
freaked out and just passed the amendment unilaterally on their
own accord because they've neverwanted to actually have to deal
with what would most likely cause a constitutional crisis.
Because based on the Constitution, it's very clear

(06:37):
that the 10th Amendment asserts anything that is not empowered
to the federal government shouldonly belong to state
governments. And like we're we're so far past
and beyond that. So my quote third party, it
would be explicitly about radicalizing and empowering
state legislature politics, likeon this third party perspective,

(06:57):
precisely to try this new tacticof ratifying the American
Constitution, essentially to strip the federal government of
most of their power and shove that power back to the states.
It's a pretty outlandish idea, but I kind of think we're at the
place that it's time for some outlandish ideas.
Yeah, that's fascinating, this Article 5 of the US

(07:18):
Constitution. Have you got some examples of
times when that has gotten closeto the states ratifying and then
the federal government has come in?
What are some of the famous examples of this that you know
of? Yeah, 1 is, I actually think
that women's suffrage was first going towards that, and I think
when I got the 30 states, that'swhen it went through that way.
There's a number of interesting ones too that are still like in

(07:39):
a quasi state that in theory states could actually still
ratify those on. A great example is there's one
that's called Article the First.It was actually the very First
Amendment that was ever passed by the United States federal
legislature, and then it went into a pending state where it
needed to be ratified by 2/3 of the states.

(08:01):
So like Article the first never was ratified, but in theory it
could be. And that would be really
interesting because that explicitly states that no
federal representative will everrepresent more in the House, at
least will ever represent more than 50,000 people.
So like that would mean that theUnited States House would
consist of like 62200 representatives or something

(08:24):
like that. I think another example was it
might have been the 25th Amendment that stipulates that,
like, if the president is like mentally handicapped, that like,
they can't continue to be president.
So like, essentially, we've seena number of different places
where this has happened. And so I think if anything, it

(08:50):
could cause for a constitutionalcrisis because, like, that's
kind of what we're gunning for. And that's kind of as like, we
got different houses to pass this.
That would be like, yeah, like, we are actually going to ratify
the United States Constitution. There won't be federal
oversight. There can't be judicial
oversight. And what's interesting is there
was a nineteen O 7 Supreme Courtdecision that was along this

(09:11):
lines where they because in Article 5 it says not only can
they ratify the Constitution, but they can also actually call
for a constitutional convention directly.
And so that was the one that thefederal judiciary was like that
that like can't happen. That's like unconstitutional.
But I think even if you did that, it would end up becoming

(09:31):
really questionable about what would happen in that.
Well, look, pulling on that thread and and I guess coming
back to Hunter S Thompson, it's really interesting.
And I just was reading through it again briefly in preparation.
And there's a scene if, if you are familiar with the book,
where he's at the National Drug Convention and there's like 1000

(09:53):
police officers and he's like infiltrated that, you know, the,
the main characters infiltrated this place.
And it's, it's this kind of, it just seems so relevant to what
we just witnessed with the Venetian, with the Bitcoin 2025.
You know, this, you know, there's people assembling in the
desert, you know, these politicians, these apparatchiks,
these different political people.

(10:14):
And then, you know, the old school cypherpunk Bitcoiners are
kind of like, well, what happened to our movement, dude?
And I think it's fascinating because I wonder what your
thoughts are on that relationship with the hippies
and the 1960s that Thompson laments about and how it never
really had the political power to do anything.
And so in the end, it just sort of fizzled out.
And how does this relate to whatwe know about Bitcoin?

(10:37):
Yeah, there there's a pretty similar dangerous trajectory in
that like interestingly enough, like the hippies did absolutely
have the power early on and likein the early 1960s from the
active movements that like I'm trying to remember the exact
student movement that was the most radical that ended up sort

(10:59):
of asserting the civil rights movement.
Like the the hippies movement came out of the civil rights
movement and like that's really important to relate.
And so like they they'd actuallyproved that like they had a fair
amount of political power and ifthey could have kept their
organization radicalism, they probably could have ran through
with that. But I also think like after the
1978 Democratic convention, where like it was very clear

(11:19):
that the powers that be, we're going to use violent force to
the full veracity that they could use it.
And I think that's when a lot ofpeople decided to roll over on
it. And so like with Bitcoin being
on a similar trajectory, like I think early on, we were quite
organized and hardcore towards the cypherpunk principles that

(11:40):
we're representing. But as we watched number go up,
as we've been placated like that, very similar to the civil
rights movement of like, hey, you guys got a couple wins under
your belt. Maybe it's time just to relax
and enjoy where you're at and the amount of money that you've
got and the new securities that you have.
And I think this is actually probably the most dangerous
place cause like it, you know, Bitcoin is designed to be

(12:03):
peer-to-peer money, not a new basis for a state form money.
And I think it's extremely dangerous in anybody's hands.
Like I, I don't want any nation states to own Bitcoin And I
don't care if it's El Salvador, China, the United States or
whomever. Like I'm my political paradigm
is very much divided this way, not this way.
So like I think it's like all peoples everywhere against all

(12:25):
nation states everywhere. I think the, the superfluous
differences between conservativeand Republican, or I mean
between Conservative and Liberal, I think it is frankly
pretty much bullshit because like we were, we're now well
past the end of history where this mutilated form of

(12:46):
neoliberalism is what rules Everything Everywhere, including
places like North Korea. Like, I don't, I don't care that
they call themselves a communiststate, like they are part of a
neoliberal global world order that like they have had to find
a place within. And so like that's the mission
that I'm always very pedantic about is like, I don't, I don't
care about any nation state. I care about people.

(13:08):
And so for me, this is Bitcoin is always a movement about
utilizing the global apparatus that is the Internet to unify
all people everywhere in one economic collective against all
governments everywhere. Like, it doesn't matter if it's
the Chinese yuan, you know, the South African Rand or the United
States dollar. Like it is all part of a

(13:28):
bullshit Fiat game that is fundamentally designed for
governments to rob you through aa very obtuse methodology that
very few people really understand.
Yeah, it reminds me of another quote from Fair and Loathing in
Las Vegas. The radio was screaming power to
the people, right on John Lennon's political song 10 Years

(13:50):
Too Late. And I reflect on, as you
mentioned, you know, there's a focus on these Bitcoin strategic
reserves, you know, companies getting on the balance sheet,
these large corporates getting involved.
And the very real accusations that people like Michael Saylor,
these other characters that we see dancing around are in fact,
apparatchiks, you know, members of the state in a sense.

(14:13):
And I'm just curious whether there's any personal encounters,
conversations you had that you were happy to share that sort of
maybe give some insight on the nuance to this idea that there
is an infiltration, that there'svarious factions within this
project? Well, I think it's important to
understand that like, there's a whole multitude of players and
like, like David Bailey's a perfect example.

(14:35):
Like Bailey is a bitcoiner through and through.
Like his approach and strategy towards how to hyper bitcoinize
the world is fundamentally and radically different from mine.
Like he wants to do it through and with the state.
And with that being said, like he like my methodology wouldn't
have gotten Ross out of prison. And that that that's like a very

(14:56):
important win that like I don't have a very good response to.
And then people like Michael Saylor, like I think it's really
important that everybody understand like anything that
you have ever seen of sailors like that that is a manufactured
image that he knows and understands and is masterful at
pulling off. I've had a number of private
conversations with him that like, I like him a lot.

(15:17):
And I honestly think like he's more of a triple agent than
anything in terms of that. Like he is working for the
state, but like he's doing it because he has a chip on his
shoulder. And like he wants Bitcoin to be
successful because of all of thestuff that he openly speaks to
and is very true for him, if that.
Like maybe maybe he's actually like a quadruple agent cause
like in that he really wants thestate to get the coin.

(15:39):
Like I, I don't know. And it's similar that there's
been other people's that I have had feelings like this.
But ultimately if I zoom out andgo, well, where's the alignment?
And it's like, yeah, like Sailorhas done more to promote the
idea of Bitcoin as a storage of value than probably anybody
else. Is that positive sum for
Bitcoin? Yeah.

(16:00):
Does that negate his work if he is working with the state?
I don't think so, because at theend of the day, like I actually
think that number go up is really important.
And this is like the biggest Trojan Horse strategy is that
like it's it's important to understand that like in the
Trojan War, the Greeks were veryopen with the Trojans about
like, hey, if you take this thing and Troy, it will destroy

(16:22):
you like that. That absolutely will happen.
But don't worry, you'll, you'll never actually get it inside of
Troy because we made it so grandand so powerful that you just
can't do it. And they're like, well, fuck it.
Like we got to bring the, the, the horse in.
And so like, we've warned them what'll happen.
And so like, I think we get everybody piling on in

(16:42):
corporations. They start because like now it's
clear that the $300 trillion bond market is like in play and
there is an arbitrage play if you have a corporation that has
access to to that form of debt. And with that, like Michael
Saylor's doing the play, we now have Metaplanet doing the like,
there's a lot of copycats comingout.

(17:04):
And I think that's going to workreally well for them for a
little bit. But the problem is, is that this
actually causes for the hyperinflationary death of Fiat
itself. And while we have seen that
happen, we have not seen a global superpower, particularly
one that that is the basis of the entire monetary system, such

(17:25):
as the Brenton Woods or Brenton Woods too.
We haven't seen what happens when that fully outstrips it.
We, we had a soft default in 71 and we saw the fallout of that,
which dramatically altered the economy.
But now we're talking about a real hyperinflationary crisis.
And these prior ones, people didn't actually have an exit

(17:46):
ramp, whereas now we do have an exit ramp.
So like, I think what's coming is going to be extremely severe
and significant. And while it's going to work
well for first movers on a corporate scale, it also
introduces A existential threat to Bitcoin.
Because like, I totally think MicroStrategy is Bitcoin and

(18:07):
Coinbase and all the other exchanges, like it will get
seized under A61-O2 style order where like they will take your
Bitcoin, you will get USDC or whatever shit coin CBDC they
want to give you in exchange forthat.
And then we'll watch Bitcoin go from like 5 million to 30
million within like a week. And I think at that point,

(18:29):
that's when like stuff starts kind of falling apart at the
seams. And if we have a robust enough
peer-to-peer Bitcoin economy, wemight slow that down.
But I that's the direction that I see playing out.
And so while there's a lot of these sycophants that I really
don't agree with their worldview, I think it's
self-serving to me at this pointand that like they're, they're

(18:51):
taking the horse into Troy for me.
Yeah, I think I would agree withthat sentiment.
You know, these these guys are working for me and you and
there's a kind of powerful reorgof the base layer where these
treasuries and these these systems are kind of getting the
foundation taken out. And then sort of a little bit

(19:11):
like Indiana Jones, he sort of swaps out the the skull for the
for the sack. And it's a little bit like that.
I think, you know, there's Bitcoin is starting to harden
beneath these these institutionsin ways that it may be hard to
really visualize, but you can kind of feel it, I think.
And I guess coming back to Sailor to this idea of the Fed,
I had a conversation with a friend who sort of there's a

(19:32):
little bit deeper in the, the weeds with this stuff than me.
And he said that, you know, it seems to him as of the US
government is setting up strategy to be some kind of Fed
2 point O or at least the contingency for it that the
likes of Coinbase these these other organizations, as you say,
they're being set up as a central institution that could
be 61 O2 if, if need be. But at the very least they are

(19:54):
sitting there in the wings readyto to to be the next thing if
need be. And I wonder if you have any
thoughts on? I guess the reality of that, you
know, that is, is that a, a centralized directive, is that
just emergent from the deep state?
Like what? How do we make sense of this?
I think it's very clear that thedollar is dying.

(20:16):
Not like it it, it will die. And I think everybody's aware of
that. I think the idea of going back
to gold is pretty appealing to alot of people.
But I think also like the, it's pretty clear that that chess
board is set up in a way for theRussians and the Chinese to win.
So I think anybody that understands realpolitik from an

(20:36):
American standpoint understands that that's a no go.
Furthermore, like the work that David Bailey is and, and other
individuals have done is like they, they have made a very
strong case for separating Bitcoin from crypto in a hole.
And so like I could very much see them move in the direction
that and also just to be clear, like like Mark Goodwin's Bitcoin
dollar thesis, like I think he fucking nailed it.

(20:58):
And that like essentially like Bitcoin is going to end up being
the rails that run the CBDC thatwill become like the new Brenton
Woods. I think we'll get some weird
fixed rate of exchange between the various currencies.
And like this will be the methodthat Brenton Woods has set up.
The thing that I think is reallydifferent and powerful though,
is very similar to the system that governed us between 1932

(21:24):
and 1971, is that like people still held gold and you could
still take payment in gold and gold was highly deflationary
through that period. Difference is, is that back then
you had to have an actual gold coin that could pretty easily
get seized from you and had all the classical things.
Whereas like we still have Bitcoin, we still have
capacities to upgrade Bitcoin ifossification hasn't totally

(21:46):
happened. And even if auscation has
happened, like we have very powerful secondary layers.
And I think that those secondarylayers are going to become more
primary because also like Lightning can do some pretty
fantastic and powerful stuff, particularly on the privacy
preserving front, in addition tolike bitcoins pretty brittle

(22:09):
right now in terms of what we'redoing with it.
And like we, we really haven't even tapped very heavily into
like what Taproot can do, what Taproot assets can do.
Some of the more powerful thingsthat are reserved in the
protocol that I think are reallyimportant and special.
But like, I think as this cat and mouse game escalates, I feel
pretty confident that like we'regoing to find that while they

(22:32):
can still lock down this system pretty hardcore, it's inherently
leaky because of the structure of both Bitcoin and of
cryptography itself. And so like, that's the thing
that gives me long term faith isthat like cryptography is like
an operable premise for like howthe laws of the universe and
mathematics works. Like it doesn't matter how

(22:55):
powerful the state is or how great their quantum compute
strategy becomes. Like it, it doesn't augment the
fundamental nature of what cryptography is.
And so I feel quite confident that like as the cat and mouse
game escalates, like we're we'regoing to see some new and
interesting innovations. And like it's really important
to understand like in the block size wars, like it wasn't there

(23:20):
wasn't like some thoughtful dialogue that happened between
all the parties at a round table.
But it was like after that shit happened and it seemed like they
were going to murder Bitcoin with the shitty agreements that
they made. That's when we had this hero
shall and fry come up on on a non that nobody knows who's
like, Hey, I got this different solution that we could use and

(23:40):
everybody rallied behind that. And so like this is one of my
other theses that I have a long like unpublished essay around.
Is that like I essentially thinklike the next great heroes of
Bitcoin are going to return to what Satoshi originally was
like. I think it they will be a nons.
There will be people that explicitly will be a nons

(24:02):
because they understand the political power that is found
there. And they'll understand the only
way that they can actually represent and push forward what
they want is by being a nobody. And I think that that'll become
a praxis and a power for like a new political paradigm that will
be kind of part of this Orange Party thing that that I was
talking about. Is that like, I think Anons are

(24:22):
going to become these very powerful and interesting actors
in a digital future that's goingto be pretty wacky, frankly.
And so, yeah, I, I, I feel pretty great about the direction
that it's going because like, while it's scary and I do think
like you're going to get the horse and Troy, they're going to
have their big party. We're going to see $1,000,000

(24:43):
Bitcoin and everybody's going tothink it's great.
And it's like after $1,000,000, like between 1,000,000 and 10
million, I think that's when people will go, oh, shit, like,
like Bitcoin is too valuable now.
Like, how do we slow this down? And they'll be like, wait, that
there, there aren't brakes on this.
And they'll be like, yeah, like that.
That's like how it's designed. And they'll be like, oh, shit.

(25:07):
And they'll be like, we'll just cut it off at the exchange
level. And they'll be like, no, no, you
don't understand. Like, like people are doing this
peer-to-peer, like this isn't, this is an exchange thing.
People are like using this otherfreak protocol Noster to like do
these exchanges, but like we can't find these people.
And I, and I think like that catand mouse game escalates up to a
place where like pretty much allof the classic panoptic and

(25:28):
surveillance powers just start to break.
And I think because like, like, there's no such thing as like
good police work anymore becausethey've leaned so heavily on the
technology that like, it's really going to kind of fuck
stuff up in a way that like, I'mreally excited about.
Interesting. The Vanguards.
I, I, I want to come back to this piece on the exchanges.

(25:48):
Eric, your earliest work with Coinbase when you first started
your Bitcoin journey. I'm just curious, maybe we could
dwell on that because now we areseeing this anointing of
Coinbase as well. We have seen the anointing of
Coinbase as the custodian for a very large amount of Bitcoin.
And I don't know if you've had much to do with Bitcoin and with

(26:12):
Coinbase in recent years, but what's your take on what that
institution means? Has it been penetrated?
What? What is?
What is the viability of it? I mean, so so I stepped out in
late 2017 after the block size wars.
I was really disgusted with the choices that were made there.
In addition to like I knew the nightmare that was going to come
out out of the, the fork was going to be horrific, which I

(26:34):
heard it was. And since then, like I've had a
pretty big chip on my shoulder about the direction that they've
carried things. You know, I think it's, it's
pretty natural that they are that custodian.
And furthermore, like the, you know, like the Co founder of my
new company was like one of the key architects of setting up

(26:55):
Coinbase's cold storage. So like, I know that they did
that right and that they were very skilled at it.
So like I, I don't think Coinbase is going to like lose
anybody's coins at some point intime.
With that being said, like I'm not worried about Coinbase
getting hacked. I'm worried about them getting
61-O2. And that's like a very different
problem that very few people have actually worked on or

(27:19):
solved. And in all honesty, it's like
one of those things that like this became a large enough
existential question that that when my best friend and Co
founder Jesse approached me, he like he was like, look, he was
like, we can either solve what we've came to call the honey
badger's dilemma, which is do you hold your own keys and take

(27:40):
on the risk of a wrench attack or do you give your keys to a
custodian and risk them being 61-O2?
And he was like, we either solvethis problem or Bitcoin's a
giant lark. It's all bullshit.
And I believe that we have foundthe solutions to be able to
actually address this in a meaningful way, but it's also

(28:01):
really risky. And I'm like, I can't help but
also see that like I have this strange story arc where I seem
to be like 1 epoch in front of look like I have this weird
story where it's like I spent the 1st and 2nd epoch of Bitcoin
like helping build Coinbase in the third epoch, like Coinbase
became what it was. And like now in this next epoch,

(28:22):
it's like kind of the evil empire.
And like in the same thing with like, you know, like I helped
build Unchained. I think it's a phenomenal
company that's done so much goodfor Bitcoin, but there is also a
risk of 61 O2 that could happen to a custodial company.
I also think it's really unfortunate that as any
collaborative custody companies that you work with you, you have

(28:44):
to dox your UTX OS to them. These are all really dangerous
honeypots. And so like, like one of the non
starters for us at Vora is that like we never want to know your
UTXOS. And so like, that's one of the
reasons that we're building essentially what's going to be
the world's most secure computeris because we want that to run a
full node that's always connected.

(29:05):
And like we will implement silent payments from day one.
And that means that like, I willnever learn your UTXOS.
And that's how it should be. Same thing with preserving
privacy for like where your physical location is, is like
we're going to use ZKPS to like help us do that, you know, and
it's these are all really important technologies that have
really only gotten built over the last, you know, three to

(29:27):
five years really that I think is one of the most important
iterations that happen. So like, I think Coinbase was a
powerful and important part for the development of Bitcoin and
getting in the hands as many people, we've now evolved past
that. And I take the idea of self

(29:47):
sovereignty with your Bitcoin very seriously.
And I also know that like it's time for the next iteration that
like as much as I have secured my Bitcoin with multi cigs, have
it distributed amongst differentjurisdictions.
Like that's a high bar for most people to attain.
And we need to figure out how dowe create a secure solution that

(30:11):
allows for you to respond to whether somebody is directly
threatening you with personal violence and trying to, like,
rob you at home, or if the nation state itself is coming
along saying, hey, give us all your Bitcoin.
We have to figure out how to solve this in a meaningful and
thoughtful way. And that's, you know, that's
essentially why I've chose to togo build this company.

(30:31):
It's, you know, while I do thinkit is a massively valuable
company on the long term, I'm not doing this for the money.
I'm doing it because, like, we need tools like this if Bitcoin
is actually going to survive in the way that we want to see it.
Yeah. So that's your company, Vora?
As vora dot IO is the is is the website.
Yeah. Is this something you're it's,

(30:55):
it's now public. You've you've you've announced.
Yeah. So Joe Vegas is kind of where we
did the soft launch. Unfortunately one of my Co
founders, he he had a health issue.
So like we were gonna do all of our fundraising and stuff while
we were there, but it was more of a soft launch.
And I think that worked out really well 'cause we can start
having the dialogues. And this, this really just came
out from robust conversation with lots of Bitcoiners.

(31:17):
And also frankly, like our significant disappointment that
we found with Bitcoin only companies, 'cause, you know, I,
I, I keep running into this narrative with individuals where
they will go work for a Bitcoin company that's like hardcore
committed to Bitcoin. They will build the most radical
cypherpunk tools and they'll find because of all the normies

(31:39):
in the company, they'll go, whoa, whoa, hang on.
Like we, we can't take on that risk or this is too much or
normal people don't care about privacy, whatever it is, you
know, and a great example, you know, like my Co founder, he he
was working at Biki when he camein, very committed to the

(32:00):
project. You know, he's still good
friends with a lot of people, really believes in what they're
building. It's a different threat model.
And like one of the things that was very clear that he was
disappointed in is that like, because it doesn't have a
screen, that opens up a really big risk, particularly if your
phone's been pawned because likeyou, you can't validate it
directly on the device. And like that's just a non

(32:23):
starter. And so for him, that was really
difficult to work with. He was really hoping in the
feedback that the company had gotten in the fallout of that,
that there would be strong changes.
And he found that that wasn't the case.
So that's why he was like, you know, we got to, if we want to
do this, we have to build it ourselves.
And that's kind of one of the primary things that we lead with

(32:43):
Vora is like we, we have a greatinvestor artifact, which is just
like a 20 page essay on what we're doing.
And, and we start with like Vora's first and foremost a
philosophical company. And part of that is, is what
does it mean to be in a world now that we have a global
distributed decentralized Internet and a global
decentralized distributed money?What does that actually mean for

(33:07):
humanity on a whole? And how does that transform the
future that is available to us? And we believe that using this
technology, if it is done right and we protect these core values
of Bitcoin, such as decentralization, as privacy, as
using robust cryptography, that there is a real opportunity that

(33:28):
we could actually transform not only the Internet, but what the
political stage of the globe looks like on a whole, and not
just for now, but forever. And so one of our key goals is
that like we believe by 2045, like there will be a Vora server
in every home or something similar to it.
Because the other one that worked dedicated to, it's like

(33:50):
we are building from silicone tosoftware, the full stack of open
source, transparent, verifiable computational hardware and
software. Because without something like
that, it is always going to be possible for the state to use
zero days and other tertiary attacks to steal people's
Bitcoin. And we want to create something
where we can go use this, store your Bitcoin and personal data

(34:13):
on it. And the only way that this is
ever going to get compromised isby compromising the full
security architecture that we think will be extremely
challenging for any actor, whether it is criminal or state.
Yeah, that's fascinating and it's awesome to hear that you
guys have soft launched this project.

(34:34):
It's it's, it's coming together and you building this in the
United States or what is your plans from the business side
structuring? Yeah, this is actually kind of
one of the other interesting strategies is that we're
building this in the United States with, and it might seem
like a misnomer, but we actuallyfeel like the United States has
the strongest privacy protections that they have.

(34:55):
So one of the things that we've developed is a PIN based code
system that you can, you can actually derive a PIN from like
a strong long cryptographically secure key using this
methodology that Jesse developed.
What's really important about that is when you when you pair
that with a key so that you havethis pin on top, like that's

(35:18):
actually something that's constitutionally protected in
the United States. And so one of our other
strategies with sort of dovetailing on the Orange Party
thing is like we want to partnervery strongly with states to
protect people's civil rights toessentially say you.
And we've seen this already on the front that with some bills
have been passed and we've been looking at different states that

(35:38):
have passed strong rights to individuals that own Bitcoin,
but that we really want this to come to a head where at some
point governments do seize EvoraVolt and they do say, hey,
you're compelled to decrypt. And now and we'll be able to
say, well, A, that's not actually true.
And B, even if we wanted to, we don't have the ability.
We don't know anything about thecustomer.

(35:58):
We don't know how much Bitcoin they have.
We didn't even know they owned this thing until you came to us.
And to us that's really important is like we want to
build a company where we are notany form of a threat vector to
our clients. And in fact, because of the way
that we build it, we empower andstrengthen them in a unique and
different way that other products don't offer at this
time. Yeah, that's awesome man.

(36:21):
And I look forward to seeing howthat emerges with with Vora.
Something I want to come back to, you know, I think there's
this implicit idea when we talk about the hyper bitcoinization
or Bitcoin for the people that there is this kind of mess
movement that may take place. And I wonder whether we can
critique that a little bit. Because I sometimes look around

(36:42):
me, I'm on the train, I'm amongst the people and I
realize, man, they don't understand this.
We're still early. Will they ever understand?
Or is this the emergence of a new kind of society where we
move away from sort of the democratic equal sort of take
that we've had for the 20th century and moves towards more

(37:02):
of a class based system? Believe it or not, that maybe is
the UTX holders and those who don't have Utx OS sort of a
difference in the way society works.
Do you have any thoughts on on that?
Yeah, I mean, frankly, part of my worldview is that, like,
Francis Fukuyama nailed it in 1992.
And he was like, hey, the last man of history.

(37:23):
It is a liberal liberalism has totally won.
Like this is the end game. And I think that's true.
And it played out up until September 11th, 2001, where we
realize liberalism transforms into a form of neoliberalism
that like inherently is it's, it's a gigantic lie and it wants

(37:45):
to tell you all of this stuff about democratic rights and
equality. That's like total bullshit that
now like you can't say somethingopenly, like hey, like I
actually believe fascism's the correct political system.
Like that's like that is such a non starter and it is so taboo.
And, and the reason why is because fascism's actually the

(38:06):
answer. And the reason why is 'cause we
need strong, powerful leaders who go, not only are you wrong
about money, but like your approach to it is absolutely
idiotic and insane. And while you like talk about
your liberal values, you like vote for a blue party that goes
and murders people around the world just as much as the red

(38:26):
party. So like, you actually shouldn't
be allowed to say anything aboutthe political system because
like your opinions are frank, frankly just that invalid.
And that's one of the great things about Bitcoin is it
invalidates those political opinions with an economic
solution. And again, kind of on the Orange
party side of things, like I want to see a radical and

(38:47):
powerful movement that like, we're not interested in having
discussion. We're interested in telling
people what's happening because like, that's what Bitcoin is.
And yeah, like I, I'm, I'm interested in a heavy-handed
movement that wants to be like, get on board, get your Bitcoin,
own it, use it, be part of the movement.
Because if not, you are going tobe left behind.

(39:09):
You are going to feel economic turmoil and more importantly,
like you won't have any say in the political system of the
future. And that that's a decision that
you made because you think that the government loves you and is
here to do happy things for you.And like, I just, I'm getting to
a place that I feel really angryand frustrated because you just

(39:30):
get the same thoughtless, idiotic arguments.
It's like, well, what about the roads?
And it's like, look, man, like there's a massive difference
between the political state and the bureaucratic state.
There is a possibility to like have the bureaucratic state that
like provides like services for you.
But frankly, like I the cost of what's happening here, I would

(39:53):
much rather destroy that, open it up to a truly free market and
then see what happens. And more importantly.
Even if it turns out that this is a gigantic bungle and that
it's chaos and all that stuff, like I'm at the place that like,
I don't care. I think that this system is so
horrific, abusive, and exploitative that like, it has

(40:16):
captured the entire globe's population.
And why that has happened is because this pedantic
brainwashing around how great democracy is, is just a lie.
And like I, you know, like it's really important that like
America's, the United States wasnot set up as a democracy.
They, they actually saw democracy as extremely

(40:37):
dangerous. And that's why they created a
Republic. And like that, very similar,
like up until the 20th century, senators for the United States
government were not elected by the people.
That was an extremely important component of how the political
system functioned. Senators were elected by the
House of Representatives directly.

(40:58):
There was the idea that you needed the Senate to have that
separation because what goes on in the political systems inside
needed to be insulated so that the Senate could actually do
real political work as opposed to pandering to the population.
And so that's why we have this sort of clown worldish version
of democracy everywhere now is because like it turns out that

(41:20):
like that's an extremely servingsystem to those that are already
embedded in power because they can just manipulate it in the
direction that serves them best.So the long answer to your
question is, is that like, and Iget a lot of people are really
scared of this for a number of very good reasons, but like I
sincerely believe that the answer to this is a legitimate
fascist movement. And I would love to see that

(41:41):
legitimate fascist movement be an American based one that leads
in that direction. Because I think what we need
more than anything is a renewal of what the true American ideals
are versus the deep state Infinite War Machine 1.
OK, So another way of describingfascism potentially as a
conservative nationalism and it suddenly takes the entire edge

(42:04):
off it. But I, I do think we need to
just dwell a little bit on more on the statement you just made,
because that is quite a strong statement that you think fascism
is the way forward. And you're suggesting strong
leadership direction from home though from the Bitcoin holders?
I mean, that's the open-ended question because like I don't
want to do it. I don't think I'm capable of it

(42:25):
and I don't think other bitcoiners are.
And I think that's where the sort of new political apparatus
from the Internet comes. Is that like I sort of think it
needs to be LED from there, but also like it's pretty it's a
pretty open-ended question because like I do think that we
need leadership in a physical form as well.
And so like, I would actually love to see that like whatever

(42:45):
fascist leader we choose would actually be like a totally a non
individual that like then maybe there is a vanguardist council
around that person who like those people know of their
identity and part of like what their thing is, is to never
expose them. And maybe there's some ongoing
system of how new and different elections within the party
happen. Like I don't know.

(43:09):
But also like it's important to kind of hold it.
Like the other thing is another paper I've worked on for a long
time is sort of trying to go through the philological and
etymological origins of these terms, fascism, communism,
socialism, liberalism, and sort of untie them because it's
really important to understand like this all developed out of a
high Galian dialectic and viewpoints that like then kind

(43:32):
of fractured into all of their own different directions.
And then also like then fascism specifically came about as a
reactionary ISM to communism andthe sort of things that ended up
resulting from largely socialistgovernments coming about.
And like, it's really interesting.
Like Benito Mussolini identifiedoriginally as a socialist, then

(43:53):
as an anarchist, and it was onlythrough anarchism that he
eventually created his own theory of fascism.
And I think one of the the main things about that is, yeah, like
fascism very much could be seen as a conservative nationalism
movement. And I want to see that as a more
holistic thing. It's not that like I want to use
America to like ram down our ideology towards everybody

(44:14):
else's throats, but it's actually like I want to have a
solidarity with other people that have their own particular
form of nationalism and be able to develop a mutualism of
support between each other. And so it's like I've wrote a
lot about Alexander Dugan's fourth political theory.
And so like, I think this new form of the political that I'm
talking about, it's it's a very strange amalga that like it's

(44:36):
taking components of liberalism,of fascism and of communism.
And it most interesting is like it's kind of taking the most
extreme aspects of all of those political theories and combining
them back into like a single thing and making those radical
points between them like forcibly operate together, which

(44:57):
in itself is a Hegelian synthesis sort of thing.
So like an example within Bitcoin is that like my Bitcoin
is equal to the same, like however much Bitcoin you hold is
equal to the same amount of Bitcoin that I hold.
So if I have one Bitcoin, you have one Bitcoin totally equal.
No way to make those things unequal.
That's like a very communist thing of the system.

(45:19):
An extremely fascist notion is like Satoshi chose 21 million.
That was his decision alone. There is nothing about that that
can change that. I mean, we could go all the way
to the consensus level fork and change it, but my argument would
be that isn't Bitcoin anymore. And so like, I think these
things work really well together.
Same thing with like, despite the fact that the system is

(45:42):
panoptic, we can see everybody'stransactions and what they're
doing on the blockchain directly.
Like the cryptography that's imbued within that radically
protects my privacy. Like you, you don't you don't
have a way to overcome that. And so I think this Amalga of
sort of all of the different aspects that Bitcoin pulls
together in synthesizing a new political system is really

(46:04):
important and powerful. Yeah.
And I, I hope that we'll see a movement in this direction
because like, it's very clear tome, like the Internet is
unequivocally the most powerful political apparatus that has
ever been developed in all of human history.
And the fact that it hasn't politicized itself is pretty
novel to me, actually. Like, it seems like why isn't

(46:26):
this thing that, you know, 4 outof five people in the world
participate in, Like, why isn't that the political structure for
the globe itself? And I think that's where we're
going. It just frankly it needed to
have its own money for itself before that could develop.
Yeah. And it's interesting as well,
reflecting on the emergence of the Internet, the personal
computer, and the direct connection with the hippie

(46:48):
movement and San Francisco as a as a site of this work.
Absolutely, yeah. I was just going to say, like
there, there's a very weird connection between what you
could call the California ideology, psychedelics and
Bitcoin. Like seeing Ross talk, then
seeing him get that 300 Bitcoin donation, Like it's very clear

(47:09):
that there's an extremely powerful and synergistic
relationship between these sort of this sort of radical ideology
in this transformation of reallyoneself in your consciousness
and Bitcoin itself. And like, I think those
relationships are really important and a lot of people
are pretty keyed up to them and aware of them at this point,

(47:30):
which I think it is wild and cool.
Yeah, did. Did you get the chance to meet
with Ross? No, I didn't.
It it was, I was feeling so overwhelmed after the second day
that I was like, I don't even think I, no, I briefly went on
the third day, but by noon I wasjust like, I'm tapped out.
Like I can't keep doing this. Understood.

(47:52):
Just come back. You mentioned the 4th political
as a concept here and you did expand a little bit on sort of
your take on that. But actually come back to the
original text. Could you just share a little
bit about what that means, sort of that particular writing and
where it came from? Yeah, so the 4th Political
Theory is a book by Alexander Dugan.
Who? Alexander Dugan?

(48:13):
He's been called Putin's brain. It's kind of funny because the
reason I follow Dugan is that he, he's really the world's
foremost Heideggerian experts. Like he's read all of
Heidegger's works and commented on them.
And so the 4th political theory is his own approach to looking
at like what the global political paradigm is, how it

(48:36):
developed through liberalism andneoliberalism and how like
neoliberalism essentially slayed, you know, the, the prior
three political theories, which was liberalism, communism and
fascism. And now that we like live within
neoliberalism and sort of are watching it.
And I hate this term because like, I really use neoliberalism

(48:59):
to talk about this form of liberalism that's like
inherently sort of a lie to itself.
And that like, it's really just about sort of making money.
Like it's it's not related to liberal values at all, but it's
sort of this like hyper, this hyper capitalist idea.
And I always put capitalism in quotes because like Fiat based
capitalism systems like aren't capitalistic at all.

(49:20):
Like that. It's a it's a weird form of
state based socialism with like kind of variables on how
socialist or not it is. And so in the fourth political
theory, he's sort of yeah. And he never speaks to it
directly. And he's like, this is just to
do an analysis. He was like, but I think the
future political theory that comes about is going to be

(49:40):
something that sort of takes different pieces of the prior
three political theories and recombine it in something that
can allow for different individuals of different like
ethnic origins and ethnoses to essentially reassert themselves
and allow for there to be a mutualism of respect amongst

(50:00):
those ethnoses. And so like, to me, that is 100%
what Bitcoin is. And the truth is, is like, I, I
don't think Bitcoin has politicized itself at all 'cause
there hasn't been a pedal logical approach that has really
been like, look, you need to understand Bitcoin not 'cause

(50:21):
like you'll get rich or anything, but because like this
is really about your safety and security in the digital world in
the future. And like, you need to understand
how encryption works. You need to understand why you
need to own your private keys. And more importantly, anything
is like you need to understand how it empowers you because
without knowing how to control your own private keys, you will
always be victim to whatever happens.

(50:43):
And like that's what we're seeing right now with all the
collaborative custody shit, which I also just want to say
like, it really isn't that hard.It is intimidating.
I want to be clear about that. It is intimidating.
It's not hard. And so it's very similar to, I
don't know, like doing work on your car or something like

(51:04):
before you open the hood of the car, you can be like, I don't
know anything about cars like this.
This feels like way too much. And then it turns out you like
open the hood and you're like, oh, like, I just like move this,
that this and like put this stuff together and like, now it
like works. It's like totally operable.
It's fine. So like I have a great chapter
in my book called, I think the Pedagogy of Bitcoin, which is

(51:24):
like about how like we need to approach Bitcoin in this
different and radical way. That's really trying to educate
people about the political powerthat's found in Bitcoin just as
opposed to the economic power. And you know, in the theme of,
of the show, like to me, that's the real transformation of value
is when you get that like, yeah,Bitcoin absolutely has an

(51:44):
economic value, but like the social and political value has a
higher one than the economic value.
And I think that's where stuff starts to really get different
and more powerful 'cause that's not only where you choose your
subjective storage of value to be only Bitcoin and forever, but
you also realize that by spreading that to other people,

(52:06):
they become empowered individuals as well.
And so like, what you're speaking about on the train,
like I'm, I'm not interested in 95% of the population.
I don't think they're useful or powerful or helpful in any way.
In fact, I think like, they're most likely detrimental and
dangerous. I mean, what I'm really
interested in is in that 5% that's like, yeah, like, I'm,

(52:27):
I'm listening. I'm fucking sick of this
exploitative system too. Yeah, I, I don't want to work 40
hours a week and at the end of it find that I only have $5.00
left for myself because that's kind of where most people are.
And it's pretty insane that people haven't just lost their
shit and started deciding to burn everything down.
Yeah, that's, that's fascinating.

(52:47):
And just kind of dwelling on this fourth political, it's
interesting. It sort of looks back into the
past and we're seeing this more and more in the cultural sphere,
you know, films rehashing old stories.
You know, Disney's kind of doingStar Wars again for the the 20th
time and there's this kind of look into the past and this
recombination. And, you know, just right now, I

(53:09):
don't, I don't know if you've, you've sort of noticed, but
there's a real focus on the 90s as a fashion statement.
You know, they've kind of, it looks like it's out of Friends
or Seinfeld, you know, some of the stuff people are wearing.
And I I wonder whether that alsoextends to this almost nostalgia
for these parts of the past people go.
Back Well, it's funny because I think it actually relates

(53:30):
specifically to hauntology and Ithink like that nostalgia of the
passed explicitly towards like afunctional political system and
like a relatively fair economic system is like something like
it's sort of absurd us when we have to sit here and be like man
like you know what'd be cool would be like if I only paid 30%

(53:50):
of my income for rent, you know also be great like if I could go
to the store and not have to figure out which meal I'm not
going to eat this week. Is it breakfast or dinner?
I, I don't know, this week, you know, I'm like, for these very
basic things, sort of like, you know, like I, I wish I could get
just like go to college and get like a good job that I could
save some money, buy a house, have some kids.

(54:14):
I mean, like the, the fact that in the Western world, we're
seeing a very sharp demographic fall off that's largely
responsible because of the economic conditions that we've
made. Like something has gone
horrifically wrong because like that like it, it's really absurd
to me to think about like there is no like 100 year vision for

(54:37):
what America is. And if you even presented that,
it would seem almost laughable to most people.
And it's like how absurdist and dangerous is that on a whole?
And this goes back to, you know,the why I think democracy,
frankly, is really dangerous is that like it wants to homogenize
all of us. It wants to say like, I'm as
equal as you are, that like our political opinions are totally

(55:01):
equal and viable to one another no matter what.
And like one vote is 1 vote. And like that's just not true.
And like it's pretty dangerous because like there's a lot of
people that go, well, I'm going to vote for the person that's
going to give me the greatest benefits.
And if I go, well, hang on, like, how did, like how is
Social Security actually going to pay out if we just have a

(55:24):
belief that anybody who's sprained their ankle should just
get on long term disability and get Social Security forever?
And they're like, huh, like I don't just like give me my
money. I'm like, that's why we're in a
situation now where like there is a belief that, you know, you
know, like I, I'm, I'm almost 40at this point and like I'll

(55:44):
never see any of the Social Security that I paid into this
system. You know, I'm like, I'm, that's
for a certainty. And like, that's not fair.
And like returning to the point on fascism, like I think we're
at a really dangerous place because like we could do this
with the Orange party and make it kind of operable.
This can go in a very different direction that like I've, I've

(56:05):
theorized about this for like more than a decade, but like, I
actually think we're going to get a youth communist movement
that's going to be like, you know what, why shouldn't I kill
my 70 year old neighbors and take their house?
Like, I'll never be able to buy it.
They got to buy it for, you know, like 1/2 year's salary
where it's going to take me 10 years.
This clearly has been unfair. So honestly, like, why shouldn't

(56:29):
we just have a communist movement that says, you know
what, everybody who's over 70, we're kicking you out of your
house and taking your home and like, you can live in the camps
now. And to be clear, like that was a
method that was used multiple times in the 20th century, not
just towards the old, but frankly towards the rich, which,
you know, now we have this demographic problem that the old

(56:49):
are the rich. And so like, it's very easy to
accelerate this dialogue in thatdirection.
Yeah. And so, like, I, I think there's
some pretty dangerous stuff coming down the line.
And, and again, like, that's kind of why I want the fascist
Bitcoin or Orange Party is not 'cause like, I just want power
and think that this is the only way to do it.

(57:10):
But frankly, like, I think the alternatives are way more
dangerous. And I think we need to be
present to that. Yeah, well, it's interesting.
You've also got this generation of children who went through
COVID lockdowns and masking and psychological trauma from the
state. And I don't know, maybe I don't,
I don't know what that really means in 10 or 15 years time,

(57:32):
you know, when these people become proper adults with some
kind of agency. You know what, what sort of
psychosis will they have after all of those Fortnite shoot ups?
And I'll sound like I'm calling out for a, you know, a moral
panic. But you know, they'll spend all
this time as digital natives. They'll spend all this time
behind screens, behind masks, you know, told what to do.

(57:55):
Who knows? You know, it could go in a
number of ways. And and I mean the repression,
it could be positive. You know, there could be some
great positive spin on this, butyeah, as you say, it could be,
could be quite dangerous as well.
Well, it's interesting because this is where it kind of goes
all the way back to like my original thesis is that like

(58:15):
Bitcoin inherently is a tool of war.
Like that's why its substrate iscryptography.
Like that's why it is built as it is.
And so like the surveillance panopticon is large, dangerous
and powerful. And like, I don't think there
are many physical actors that can really overcome a lot of
those places. And that's why I like, I think

(58:37):
this sort of radical individualism that Bitcoin calls
upon is like, if we live in thistotally panoptic state, like you
can still get yourself on tour and figure out like how to
acquire Bitcoin in various ways.And like that's
cryptographically protected in ways that are really important.
And so, like, I think whatever revolution does come, like it
needs to lead through the Internet and use tools like this

(59:01):
as its primary mode. So I think anything else that's
like sort of, you know, physically based, if you will, I
think is subject to failure because of just how powerful the
technology is at this point. Well, the other thing your your
fascist orange party that the FOP.

(59:21):
I find it interesting because again, I mean, some people may
may shut down when they hear that the F word, but it's
interesting as you say, it sits alongside alternatives.
And if we go back to the Weimar Republic at these moments in, in
the past, we Chinese civil war, these moments when there was
contention for power, we have tolook at what the alternatives
are and what is the political proof of work that needs to be

(59:42):
put in? Because, you know, is the FOP
far superior to the, the GOP in,in in this case, you know, and
the, the dictate of of a president, a monarch, You know,
what, what are the options that are on the table?
Because I don't think sitting onthe fence in that time of change
is a valid choice. You know, you kind of have to
throw your lot in with somebody.And that's maybe something we

(01:00:04):
haven't experienced since the end of history.
You know, we've just sort of been.
Absolutely. Not.
You know, you know, I'm like, like we haven't seen any of that
kind of radical as been America for a long time because like our
political system worked relatively well, you know, up
until the last 20 or 30 years. Not to say it was great before,
but like we, we used to actuallyreally actually get Democrats

(01:00:24):
and Republicans that could sit down and be like, yeah, like
we're we're on the same team. We want the same stuff.
Let's figure out how to do it. Whereas largely in part because
of their own work, like they have turned one another into
nemesis that can't be dealt withlike living in like the liberal
utopia that I live within. Like, it's, it's really insane

(01:00:47):
to me the kind of explicitly hateful dialogue that's directed
towards conservatives just for them being conservative.
Yeah. And I, I, I think we need to
understand that where we're at economically like this, this
problem cannot be solved politically by Democrats or

(01:01:07):
Republicans in any meaningful way.
And so like, I honestly think wehave two choices that will
manifest before us over the nextdecade. 1 is as we get some
variant of pretty radical communism and like the, the
question is, is how that plays out.
Like if the youth are smart, like they can really create like

(01:01:28):
an American style youth communist movement that's
designed to do that. There's, there's enough people
and they're angry enough that like, if they can empower
themselves, and this is the realkeyword that I'll follow up on
why I don't think they can do that.
It could happen on the other side.
Like I think you need a radical FOP style movement that's going

(01:01:49):
to be like, look like fascism's the only thing that'll solve
this. We're ending the Fed
unilaterally. Bitcoin becomes money for
everybody in the United States. You need to manage that on your
own. There's going to be a lot of
economic turmoil, but there's going to be the economic freedom
for you to actually operate in amarket based economy, which is
fundamentally different from howthe communists want to play it.

(01:02:09):
They want to make the governmentmuch larger than it already is,
and they're going to use that government to steal all of the
wealth from all of the people that have it.
Now. I don't think they can
accomplish that because the last10 years of woke ISM like look,
I mean, just like look, look at who their heroes are.
Like, I mean, like these these aren't people that I'd follow,

(01:02:30):
you know, into a grocery store. None nonetheless through a
political movement. And like, that's kind of one of
the things that that I find the most interesting about the
Democratic monogeny is like, they took the lowest common
denominator and elevated that person when like most of these
people can't even take care of their health nonetheless, like
present an image for a healthy future.

(01:02:52):
So yeah, I, I kind of think thatthat's doomed.
And then on like the more conservative side, like I think
in the United States, you could get some variant of National
Christian Dome that would be like, I think it would actually
be dangerous because like it's not actually Christian.
It's this weird subset that likethey want to speak towards all

(01:03:13):
the things of it's very similar to the GOP right now.
And that's kind of why, again, Ithink you need bitcoiners in the
Orange party because they can have these radical values and
present them in a way that stillenshrines a lot of quote UN
quote, like liberal social values.
Like, you know, I would, I wouldbrand myself as being more of a

(01:03:34):
conservative individual. But like, within that, like,
yeah, like if you want to do drugs, great.
Like, you should be free to do that.
You should be totally empowered to do whatever you want to do
with your body. But like, we essentially need a
movement that's going to embracethis economically conservative
but socially liberal space that I think a lot of Americans

(01:03:55):
actually identified pretty strongly with.
But because we've been stuck into a dualistic political
paradigm for decades, the very idea of somebody stepping
outside of that framework throwsmost people for a loop.
Very similar to how when you're like, so like, how does this
third party orange party thing work?
Like I had to explain like it's not, it's not your traditional

(01:04:16):
political party. It's actually much more of a
radical vanguardist movement that like, I'm interested in
people in the orange party when they're like, I'm the orange
party and they're like, well, like you guys will never get
elected. So like how you can do it.
And like, I want our guys to respond with like, how fucking
dare you? You're a piece of shit.
This isn't about being elected. It's about calling people like
you out who choose to compromiseon one of the two sides that

(01:04:38):
results in the same thing. And what we're really based upon
is making a mark and saying I won't identify with either of
these pieces of shit that are choosing to exploit, steal and
destroy our Republic for their own gain.
So how about it's not about us getting elected, it's about
making sure that we don't identify with you.

(01:05:00):
Interesting. You mentioned just towards the
end there, this national Christian idea and I, that was
actually something I wanted to follow up on because it seems as
if, you know, if we look at these possible futures that
you've outlined, they're very bleak.
You know, there's kind of an edge to it.
There's a hardness to it. And I often come back to, well,
what is the middle way? What is the what is the way that

(01:05:24):
is maybe following in the way ofChrist, something unifying that
brings people together and and looking at the work of Paul and,
you know, extending this to all the Gentiles, you know, opening
this thing up. Is that something maybe deeper
down, not as a maybe an organized movement, but maybe
something a bit more spiritual, something a bit more deep in the

(01:05:46):
soul that you see maybe helping alleviate some of these issues
or is it a an impasse? I definitely think on a.
Personal level and like I think of, I think we got national
Christendom in a way that truly imbued those ideas meaningfully.
Yeah, like, I think it would be pretty great overall.
I think the problem is very similar to like how we got a

(01:06:09):
Protestant movement in the 1st place is like, it turns out that
like the the church has done like an awful lot of corrupt and
bad things. It's another paradigm of power.
And in all honesty, like I wouldreally love to see a more
powerful and radical Christian movement.
I think I think I have a pretty bad taste in my mouth about it

(01:06:31):
just because of how it has manifest in the American
political scene as being sort ofa variant of like Republicanism.
And so like if if I saw a truly Christian movement that was
like, yo, like fuck war first and foremost, we want nothing to
do with the Republicans or the Democrats, I'd be like right on
like I'm I'm like listening in one on board.

(01:06:53):
And so I think if it could trulyelevate these Christian ideals
to their apex of as, as what they should be, I'd love to see
that. And I think it would be really
powerful and important and inspirational.
Just very similar to like how I feel like when I talked about
religion on a whole with my European counterparts, because
of their own social inheritance,they have a relative amount of

(01:07:16):
distaste in their mouth for it. And so I think that's sort of a
similar experience that I have about the idea of Christian
politics in the United States, because I've just seen it
manifest in this sort of variantof the GOP style.
I'm hesitant that it wouldn't just be more of that.
Yeah, well, it's interesting. Again, Jacquie Lowell writing on

(01:07:37):
propaganda, you know, 1960s French theorist and, and one of
the chapters he talks about, youknow, for us to paraphrase.
So the way the Christian Church could use propaganda any sort of
posits that that by necessarily doing that, it's turning its
back on what is the the spiritual and the holy by
entertaining these ideas. And it kind of becomes a non
church. When, when the Christian, when a

(01:07:59):
Christian Church becomes political, it becomes of the
world. And the sort of, there's also
the, the older idea in the Jewish tradition of the yoke of,
of man or the yoke of God. And I think certainly on my own
journey, starting to think aboutthese things because the
political violence, you know, this kind of darkness.
So it really is not something that I, I want to foster or that

(01:08:23):
I want to see emergent. It's possible that it's
necessary, that it's inevitable,but kind of pushing against that
in, in a way. And I wonder if there is almost
a divine role that we can look to perhaps and a great
unification. I mean, but I, I don't know well
the this is where the Internet gets really.
Interesting. Is that like it, it like it just

(01:08:46):
neutralizes the ability for political violence to find
itself. And so like, like, I wish I
could speak more to, to what something in like this looks
like. But I, I, I think the Internet
itself and the ability to preserve anonymity and to speak
to truth is like this really, really powerful vehicle.
And I think if we could get somesort of organization that's

(01:09:08):
about that. Because to be very clear, like
this is all part of a gigantic spiritual crisis.
And the great suffering that's occurring in the world comes
from an extremely deep nihilism of the belief that we can't
change anything or make a difference for it.
And I think probably the weirdest and the most
interesting thing about Bitcoiners is that, like, I can

(01:09:31):
confidently say at this point that I have met hundreds,
literally hundreds of people whohave had their own spiritual
waking through Bitcoin. And like, that's insane.
And like a lot of times, like I've definitely had dozens of
people approach me cautiously about this and being like, hey,
like, I like, I, I just, you seem like the right person to

(01:09:51):
share this with because of your writing and stuff.
And like, then they're like, I like, I was like an atheist.
I didn't believe in God. And then I figured out Bitcoin
and started doing all this. And then I had this like moment
of awareness and opening that like I accepted God in my heart
and like now I'm a Christian or a Muslim or a Buddha and like, I
really believe in that. And that's important.
And, and I, and I'm always deeply struck because I'm like,

(01:10:13):
OK, so like this is actually happening.
It's not like a unique thing to myself or just a couple of
others, but there seems to be like some real pathway that
happens. And my truth is, is I think what
happens is that when you look out at the world today like
that, nihilism is dark and powerful and loud.
And it's very easy to be like, there's no possible way that we

(01:10:37):
could ever escape this. Like the, the powers that be are
too powerful, they're too robust.
They, they got everything lockeddown.
And then I think when you find Bitcoin, you do your research,
you get over all the humps and novelty of it and really
discover that it's actually realand what it's doing.
You realize that there's this radical and extraordinary key to

(01:10:57):
a lot of this darkness and therethere finally becomes an ability
for you to actually find a direction to guide you out of
that darkness because before it's just thick blackness.
There's no direction to go. But then when you see this
pinpoint of light of you're like, oh, like I could follow
that. And and the thing that I think
is sort of hilarious is like Godand all of his magnificence and
brilliance. Like, it's like, hey, like,

(01:11:19):
let's like, let's like goad theminto this, like making it about
money 1st. And people are like, Oh yeah,
I'm like going to go towards that light where like, you know,
I could liberate myself from thecircumstances and horrors that I
live within. Like, as they follow it, they're
like, hey, wait a minute, like going towards the light of the
positive thing. And like, yeah, I'm like
acquiring more economic sovereignty.
But I'm also realizing like thisis part of a much bigger

(01:11:41):
question. Like, is it, is it fair, ethical
or right that some people get toprint money?
Is it fair, ethical or right that this whole system of
exploitation is taking advantageof everybody?
And you go, no. And I have this weapon now that
actually allows for me to fight them.
And even cooler, it's like, it'snot actually a weapon.
It's a shield. I'm like, if I can give this

(01:12:02):
shield to more people, they can protect themselves from that as
well. And we can use this to actually
liberate ourselves from the circumstances we're in.
And so like I, I used to find ita very, what's the right word?
I used to find it very surprising at how many people
would have a spiritual awakeningthrough Bitcoin.
But now I kind of expect it. It's kind of weird, but I've

(01:12:25):
seen it enough times and consistently enough that like,
it's it's an actual phenomenon that like, I'm pretty sure that
it's just because there's an answer to the economic nihilism
that then then opens them up to the possibility of there being
an answer to the spiritual nihilism as well.
Yeah. And something I think you write
about. Quite a lot in crypto
sovereignty is this idea of Bitcoin as a messianic tool,

(01:12:49):
which I think really encapsulates what you've just
said. It's sort of the thing we needed
at the time. It was the right thing at the
right time. And certainly in this age of the
consumer, the end of history, whether it does not seem like
there's any hope that there's only these kind of memories of
the past, we actually can go back further into that past and

(01:13:10):
find that there was the same thing.
Nothing's new under the sun. Great empires, Roman Empire, you
know, these great persecutions, these great imbalances, and then
the opportunity for redemption being available there, which if
someone's so busy with their daily life, enslaved in a sense,
waged slaves to an economic system that doesn't have any

(01:13:31):
mobility to have something that can help them get just the head
above water enough to take a sipof breath and, and, and see that
there is a great light of redemption available through
God. You know, it's almost like we're
completing the the loop of Nietzsche's proclamation of the
death of God, and we're actuallyrediscovering that he was there
all along. Absolutely.

(01:13:53):
And I think that's why. In messianic Bitcoin, like I, I
just straight up lift a like an entire paragraph from Nietzsche
and from the Gay Science 126 where he first speaks about the
death of God 'cause like I thinkthat this and like I, I think
God in all of his brilliance understood why he needed to be

(01:14:14):
slaved in this nihilistic sense was to create the opening and
possibility for this radical renewal where you realize that
like God and all of his beauty, grace and intelligence, like he
didn't abandoned us. He like created a situation
where he could produce this piece of technology into the
world. That to be clear, when I say

(01:14:34):
messianic, I don't mean that Bitcoin is the Messiah.
I mean it exudes qualities that would be of aid to the Messiah.
And furthermore, like it allows for this possibility of an
economic redemption to occur. And I think these qualities that
exudes are very important because it does it at a
standstill, like if Bitcoins notforcing itself on anybody, it's

(01:14:58):
a form of logic and knowledge. And so it's like the sort of
quote redemption that Bitcoin gives you is like, if you
believe in it and have faith in it, like it's going to do what
it's done over its four year cycles.
And I think offering that to people is like in an age of
economic nihilism is extremely important.

(01:15:20):
And I think frankly, without it,I, I think there really isn't
anything left that this world can kind of offer.
And like it, it's really scary 'cause like I've met a number of
people who, the idea that if youget wealthy in the world today,
it means you must be a bad person.

(01:15:40):
It means you're exploiting somebody, you're engaging in
that process. And like, that's kind of where
the nihilism has brought us to. And that's the same reason why
people don't believe in God. It's really hard to like, how
could a God give us this world? How could it be possible that
evil could run so rampantly and there could be a God?
And it's kind of funny 'cause I flip it on its head, 'cause it's

(01:16:01):
like, because he loves you and he believes in you, and he
believes that you could actuallydo something meaningful and
substantial to change it. But like, he needs you.
God needs you more than you needhim.
And like, that's what the age ofnihilism is about is it's not,
it's not about believing in God because he's magically going to
save us all from everything. It's that we commit ourselves to

(01:16:24):
God because we believe there is a higher and better purpose and
meaning to this world. And that right now evil is
winning. And it's not because God wants
evil to win, but it's because weneed to reflect on that evil in
a meaningful way that goes, whoa, we can't do this.
What are we going to do in response to it?
And like, that's pretty much theconclusion that Hannah Ardent

(01:16:45):
presented in Eichmann and Jerusalem about what the
banality of evil is like. It's, yeah, like it.
There's nothing original or unique about how evil operates.
You just can't think. And that's why you get, you
know, all of these different individuals throughout the world
that that have made a lot of money because they didn't think

(01:17:05):
about it. And they are actively engaging
in evil. There's now an opportunity to
actually redeem ourselves from that and say, it turns out that
money actually is an ethical thing.
And it's because we have mismanaged it so severely over
the last century that it has become something that looks like
evil. And it's because there's no
thought behind it. That's fascinating.
There's a lot of deep questions here.

(01:17:27):
And as I go on my own journey, you know, I look at these
questions, you know, give us this day, Our Daily Bread.
What does it mean to 8 to be, you know, just to, to satisfy
the, the body, but also realizing that we don't live by
bread alone and that there's something more.
And it seems as if for a long time, this procurate gig economy

(01:17:48):
and people doing Uber Eats deliveries and living on the
edge. You know, how did we get here?
You know, these people are focusing on the on the body and
the here and now, so busy, distracted with the piece of
glass in their hand, the iPhone.They can't say that there's
something beyond. And it's interesting.
I think there's a lot of room for more thought and expansion

(01:18:11):
on this topic. And it's still pretty nice.
You know, I think you've writtenabout it.
There's a few people who've written about it.
But still early days. Yeah.
And it's exciting to see. More people actively engaging
and considering it in a meaningful way.
You know, I'm like, I, I, I really love where we're at
developmentally because like, these are the questions that I

(01:18:33):
was always pretty hung up with. Because like it, if Bitcoin can
do what it promises to do, whichit has done since the genesis
block, then there's a real potential that it could change
humanity for the better and moremeaningful.
And this returns to the fascism thing of that.
Like, I think it's time that we're done with having

(01:18:55):
conversations with people. Bitcoin will win.
Bitcoin is better than your system and it will continue to
go up and to the right against Fiat over time.
And you will either learn that now or later.
And furthermore, like I'm I, I simply don't give people that
aren't bitcoiners. I, I just simply don't give them

(01:19:16):
much weight at all in terms of what they say now 'cause like
if, if you've had this much timeand opportunity to think about
what and why Bitcoin is and how it functions and you haven't
figured it out, I, I just don't have a lot of empathy for you.
Like it's, it's pretty clear andlike you need to do the work.
But like I, I really appreciate what Michael Saylor said of

(01:19:38):
that. Like you're gonna spend 40,000
hours of your life working and trying to make money.
It's probably thoughtful to spend 100 hours to figure out,
like how it works. And the truth is, is like, I'm
always pretty amazed at how uninformed most people are about
money. And it's just, it's wild to me

(01:19:58):
that, like, here's the thing youdeal with every day all the time
and like, you don't wanna know how it works, OK, You know, or
even even better is that like, you don't know how it works, but
you have strong opinions towardsme about how it works and like.
I don't know, It's just, I guessit's in line with modernity and

(01:20:21):
the kind of hubris that people seem to lead with.
Yeah, well, it's a fascinating project.
And I'm. I'm.
Glad. And there's people like you who
are writing about this, are honored to be able to have a
conversation with you about it and at least broach the topics.
Because it seems like we're alsoin a very interesting time where
even as as theorists, as, as, asauthors, you know, we're not

(01:20:44):
necessarily writing about the past.
You know, we're actually writingabout something's happening
right now. And that that's kind of a unique
time to be where the conversations you and I having
actually could go and leave these ripples that people will
look back on and be like, well, that was that was part of this
project. Just like Heidegger, Carl
Schmidt, These people were thereat the time.
They were, they were relevant inthe contemporary moment and not

(01:21:06):
just historical figures. And I think we need to just keep
the conversation going and have dialogue.
Absolutely. And.
Particularly sort of these, you know, these ones that are a bit
more philosophical and that likeI don't to me, the economic
conversation's boring and solved.
Like it's obvious what Bitcoin'sgoing to do.

(01:21:27):
Like I'm much more interested ofthat.
Like, So what are the ramifications of this?
Like what it what does it mean about our souls?
Like, what does it mean for philosophy?
Like what does it mean for the Internet?
And like, I think this is like one of the things I find the
most intriguing is how little philosophical commentary has
been offered to it. And I think that goes to show

(01:21:47):
how captured philosophy is kind of within the general scheme and
scope of things. Is that like, philosophy is now
some dry academic topic. And to me, like, I, I never
looked at it that way. To me, philosophy was always
about the question of the meaning of life.
Like, what does it mean to be? What does existence itself mean?

(01:22:07):
And what does it mean that we'rehere?
And to me, one of the great questions about Bitcoin is that
like, I think it truly is a grander question about what does
it mean to exist today? Because like today you can own
Bitcoin and like you can go halfway around the world and you
can use that Bitcoin and and youdon't have to get permission

(01:22:27):
from anybody. Like that's never existed before
in the world. And that we have this magical
thing called the Internet where like we've never met in meat
space. We're an ocean apart.
Like, it's totally different times of day for both of us, and
yet we can relate, connect and have this conversation and even
have a solidarity that has us believe in one another more than

(01:22:48):
our entire nation state and political paradigms that we've
been offered. And so to me, part of that
question is, is at what point dowe actually allow for this to be
our highest form of identity andopenly speak to that?
And to say, yeah, I refuse and reject the American political
establishment because I know that there are other people in

(01:23:10):
the world that I have more in common with and more in
solidarity with, and that I wantto have a political union with
those people because they have the same values as me.
And it turns out these are like super normal, natural human
things. Like, I don't believe that
anybody should be able to steal from anybody else for any
reason. And I don't think that anybody

(01:23:30):
should harm anybody else for economic gain.
Like, these are very fucking basic agreements.
And yet every single nation state on the planet wants to
subject people underneath and beneath those to say we have a
right to hurt you if you don't give us money, and we have a
right to hurt you if you don't listen to us.

(01:23:53):
And like that, that's wrong, unethical, immoral, a human and
basic idea. And furthermore, like in this
very Heideggerian concept, like I believe the decision to reject
that alone can radically augmentthe world.
And like, I'm not, I'm not interested in compromising.

(01:24:15):
I'm interested in telling you I won't participate in your
economic system of exploitation any longer.
And you can kill me. You can try to rob me.
You can do any of these things, but that's part of why I'm
building Vora. It's because I want When they
finally come for me and it's clear that it's over, I'll be
like, yeah, you can kill me. You can imprison me, you can lop

(01:24:36):
off pieces of my body, but you won't have my Bitcoin.
And you know what else? My bitcoin's probably actually
going to find contracts to seek you out and make you responsible
for the crimes that you're carrying out right now.
So go fuck yourself. Well, look, man, I think that's
a good place to wrap it up. Eric.
It's exciting to hear what you're working on.

(01:24:57):
Is Vora your main focus or have you got any other writing
projects you're undertaking? What, what else have you got
planned for the year? Vora is my main focus.
My role at the company is going to be pretty weird in that like
I don't want a traditional role or to really own it.
Like my job is really to be cultivating a culture that is,

(01:25:19):
that is truly a radical hyper Bitcoin company.
And part of the idea is that like I'm well connected in the
space, I speak to it philosophically and like I'll
probably be like our chief philosophical officer or
something. Because to me it's about, and
this is where I've actually found it's really great.
It's like people are fucking sick of working for a
corporation that wants to make money.

(01:25:41):
And like, if you want to work for Vora, chances are you're
probably not going to get paid as much as you'd be doing in
other things in your field. But you know what, you're going
to be working on something that makes a difference in the world
and is meaningful. And you should join us if that's
a project that you want to work on, Like if you want to help
Google make their ads slightly more efficient, like, yeah, go

(01:26:01):
do that. I'm happy for you.
But like if if you want to actually build something that
could change the concourse of humanity for the better, you
should come work with us. Like we'd be excited to have
you. And you'll be paid in Bitcoin.
You'll get time locked Bitcoin as a bonus and more importantly,
like you'll hang out with a bunch of fucking cool bitcoiners
all day long. Awesome.
Well, look, Eric, thank you so much for your time.

(01:26:22):
And your thoughts. And yeah, I've really enjoyed
this conversation. Thank you.
I've greatly enjoyed it as well.Cool man, I am Cody Allingham
and. That was the transformation of
value. If you would like to support
this show, please consider making a donation, either
through my website or by directly tipping to the show's
Bitcoin wallet. Or just pass this episode on to

(01:26:44):
a friend who you think may enjoyit.
And you can always e-mail me at hello@thetransformationofvalue.com.

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