April 12, 2025 • 60 mins
Anita Posch is a strategic Bitcoin adviser, educator, author and founder ofBitcoin for Fairness. She has travelled extensively throughout Africa and other parts of the world as a digital nomad to learn about how Bitcoins use cases are different in each region. In this episode we discuss her experience in Zimbabwe and Sub-Saharan Africa and how Bitcoin education can be shared to promote financial sovereignty.
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Bitcoin for Fairness - https://bffbtc.org/
Anita's website - https://anitaposch.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Then they reinvented the Zimbabwe dollar in 2019 and what
they did back then was you had an U.S. dollar account in a
Zimbabwean bank and from one dayto the other they told you this
is now not AUS dollar anymore, this is Zimbabwe dollar.
But don't fret, the value will stay the same.
(00:21):
And everyone knew. No, you basically just stole all
my money. Hello, I am Cody Allingham and
this is the Transformation of Value, a place for thinkers and
builders where we ask questions about freedom, Bitcoin and
creativity. My guest today is Anita Posh, A
strategic Bitcoin advisor, educator, author and founder of
(00:44):
Bitcoin for Fairness. Since 2017 she has been speaking
on the biggest and the smallest stages to bring Bitcoin
knowledge to thousands of people.
Anita has travelled extensively including to places such as
Zambia, South Africa, Ghana, Indonesia, El Salvador, El
Salvador and Zimbabwe where she is currently based, learning
(01:04):
first hand about how local economies develop and how
Bitcoin is being used. Anita, welcome to the show.
Hello, Cody. Yeah, it's great being here.
Thanks for the invitation. I want to start with a bit of a
contrast because I know you weretravelling through New Zealand
last year and now you're in Harare, Zimbabwe.
(01:26):
What strikes you as the difference and, importantly, the
similarities between these two countries?
It's funny how that you asked that because when I was in New
Zealand I was very often reminded of Zimbabwe.
I mean, they both have a Britishhistory and architecture in that
sense, and also the landscape sometimes.
(01:49):
I don't know. I mean, of course it's totally
different, but from the way of life.
What I enjoyed in New Zealand isalso people are very much laid
back. They are not like carrying
around their status a lot like in I annoyed from Europe and
(02:09):
from the US and from other partsof the world and Zimbabwe is
very similar. I mean, one reason why people
can't carry their status around is that a lot of them don't,
don't have any. But, but in general, people are
more chilled here, you know, like nobody looks what you're
wearing, for instance. You know, I mean, of course you
(02:31):
dress up a little bit when you go somewhere, but in the end it
doesn't really matter. And and you don't feel that
pressure that you have in other regions of, of the world.
So it was funny because I sometimes in New Zealand said I
just feel like in Zimbabwe here.Oh, interesting.
(02:52):
So, so yeah. So you you had been to Zimbabwe
before, so this isn't your firsttime being there.
Yes, it's my, I assume fifth time.
I'm not quite sure, but yes, I think the fifth time.
I came the first time in 2020 just before the pandemic.
So I made it out of the country before the airports closed and
(03:14):
and went back to Austria. Yeah, that's, that's fascinating
because the, the reason I wantedto ask is growing up, you know,
I had a lot of friends come fromSouth Africa, Zimbabwe, you
know, basically got out, especially after 2008 or around
about that period. And certainly what you said
strikes me when you do look on Google Maps and you just do
(03:35):
Street View and you compare South Africa, Zimbabwe, just
look at the the way the cities look.
They have that certain look thatit reminds me of New Zealand.
But and I guess, and that's the similarities, but the difference
is we must look at the economy. And right now you're
experiencing a power cut as we speak.
So we're on battery power in Zimbabwe.
(03:56):
You're using a Starlink. I assume load shedding is a
daily occurrence. It seems there's maybe a lot of
economic turmoil. So I guess in that sense, how
have these two countries or how,how is I guess broadly Africa
and say somewhere like New Zealand sort of changed or
deferred over the last few decades?
My so how has it changed? I can't say over the last
(04:19):
decades because I'm only here inin the African continent since
2020. But of course, I mean taking
Zimbabwe as an example, Zimbabweis extreme, but also in South
Africa. So after a short period after
the independence of these countries where they still,
(04:42):
they're prosperous. And I mean, South Africa has a
totally different story in a waythan Zimbabwe.
But one fact I, for instance, didn't know before I came here,
there was also apartheid in Zimbabwe, like full blown
apartheid. I never heard about that in
school or anywhere else. So it's interesting from that
perspective. So they had these challenges of
(05:07):
how power was taken over by people from here and the British
had basically to go home. There were different ways how
they did that. But the, the, the sad thing in
many African countries that you can see is that people, how
(05:27):
shall I say they developed a sadly a very corrupt power
structure Here in many of these countries, we see long term
authoritarian presidents who tryto throw over the constitution.
I mean, we don't only see that in Africa at the moment, also in
other places of this world. And what you can especially see
(05:52):
here in Zimbabwe is how the, the, the, the monetary system
that we have at the moment, the Fiat system is definitely a
driver of disparities. I mean, you have very rich
people here, but also very, verypoor people.
(06:13):
And the system of that central banks and consumer banks are
giving out credit and basically lending money away and people
have to pay back their loans. And that's the way how we create
money. And that central banks here,
they, they really just print themoney.
(06:35):
This is not, you know, in, in other areas of the world we say,
OK, we have 2% inflation or maybe 3 or 4, but we have a
control system with the central bank and things like that.
But here it's really blatant printing of money.
So it's really the IT really is an example of how you can use
(07:00):
the system to squeeze everythingout of people.
So infrastructure, as you said, it's totally down.
I mean, just as an example that we, we, we have a municipal
water system, but it's not working since 10 or 15 years
here. But we need still need to pay
(07:20):
for the fact that we are connected to the system, which
is ridiculous because we don't get get any water from there
electricity. As you said, the the government
tells people. Oh, yeah, we have problems.
Sorry, we are not producing enough electricity for the
demand, but just get yourself a solar system.
(07:44):
I mean, this is for people like us something OK, OK, we need to
put a little bit of money aside and buy a solar system.
But most of the population in these countries in these areas
can't afford that. So all these corruption and
problems produce a world where you are even more disempowered
(08:08):
because now you can't be a part of the global digital economy,
for instance, You know. So it's a lot of difficulties
that you face here. And this also, interestingly
enough, plays into the adoption of cryptocurrencies and Bitcoin.
Yeah, all new technologies. Yeah, I do want to dive into
(08:32):
that, but I guess lingering on the politics and money point for
a moment, this is really interesting.
As I said, friends from Zimbabweand New Zealand, everyone's
familiar with the Zimbabwe dollar, like the trillion dollar
notes and that sort of thing. I've got one actually the $500
billion not not that much back back at home in New Zealand and
(08:55):
obviously 2008 Robert Mugabe does this period of
hyperinflation is quite well known.
But again, I want to connect that back to the New Zealand
story because New Zealand is agricultural country export
orientated Zimbabwe, the bread basket of Africa and now the
basket case potentially. And so seeing that connection
(09:16):
between what was once a very prosperous nation and what it
has become, and the connections also to what you said about
British culture, because Ian Smith, one of the former prime
ministers during before Robert Mugabe, said Zimbabwe was more
British than Britain. And the same thing could be said
about somewhere like New Zealand, where we've hailed on
to a lot of these old ideas. Yet somehow New Zealand has made
(09:40):
it through whereas Zimbabwe hasn't.
And I am curious sort of that connection between politics and
money and then potentially even education, because unlike New
Zealand, Zimbabwe had a very radical and quick change of
power and that sort of led to maybe people coming in who
didn't understand how to run a country.
And so is this something that plays into this as lack of
(10:01):
governance and education? I don't think it's lack of
education because today's finance minister here, he went
to university in England. I think they know what they're
doing. But I also believe that the the
sudden change of power in 1980, there was, as far as I know, no
(10:23):
period of like learning, OK, youtake over now.
This is how governance is well done at the moment and maybe do
it the same way. And there's also, sadly, I think
the the, the takeover or the theway how it was given the the
(10:44):
people weren't chosen the right way.
You know, it were the strongest and and and the roof most
ruthless people who got into power then.
And and that's the problem, because what they did then is
they started. I mean, there's a saying people
say here the government, the thethe the people in power, they
(11:05):
want to eat. It's called who's next to eat,
basically, you know, So that means who is in power and who is
going to get rich because they're extracting all the value
from the people and the country and.
And that's how it goes. And so it's a very corrupted
mindset. I don't know.
(11:27):
I mean, these people have no shame in that sense.
And there's no control because they took over all the power.
I mean, just this week, last week, there were demonstrations,
but it seems there's no opposition at the moment.
Yeah. They are basically the, the
(11:49):
violence of the current regime. It seems it's even higher than
the one under Mugabe. And that's the problem because
people are scared you, you don'tgo out on the streets when you
know you will be shot because that's what happened in 2017 or
19 I think, I can't remember exactly.
(12:11):
So that's that's the main problem.
And the the whole it's a very well maintained machinery here
of power and corruption. Like in in 2017, Angagawa was
supported by the military and hetook over basically from Mugabe.
That was a coup. And now he how was that?
(12:34):
I recently read that from 2017 up until today, because the
military basically was led by the current Vice President and
the current vice president called out Managua and his
people about the corruption and that it's not a key what they're
doing. And so the military was in
(12:56):
recent years, basically the resistance in a little bit
against Managua, but they killeda lot of the military officers.
So there are not many left. So as at the moment it seems
that the power is back in Managua's hands or not really in
his hands, but in the, in the, in the system's hands, because
(13:18):
there are rumours that he has dementia, you know, but then
also Robert Mugabe was a puppet in a sense because he also
didn't have a clear mind anymore.
You, you heard that when he was speaking.
So it's a very complex system and people are scared and, and
the corruption goes from top down to anyone.
(13:39):
You know, I heard from people who were opposition members and
then they see they don't get anymoney from that.
They can't earn a lot. And then they go to the Sino PF
because they are, they get funds, you know, So it's really
sitting very deeply here in the system.
It's corruption and yeah, power corrupts and too much power
(14:03):
definitely corrupts. And that's why it's important
that in in other countries that there's a system of, yeah,
governance and control, that corruption can't happen.
But it's difficult. We know that, you know.
Yeah, well, I must say I perhapsreveal my naivety from a Kiwi
perspective when I mention, you know, is simply a case of
(14:25):
education. Because I guess the strata of
the New Zealand democratic system, governance, all of this
has been inherited from what would be considered the high
point of enlightenment. And, you know, the British
Empire and all of this separation of powers and all of
these things that have come through time.
And so we, there's just an entire social system built upon
(14:48):
that. And that when you're in a place
where that doesn't exist, it becomes what you describe,
corruption, warlordism, you know, just the will to power.
And it's I guess an interesting thing because, you know, I don't
expect us to answer the questionof Africa today, but in this
conversation, But, you know, it seems like there's some kind of
(15:08):
connection here with Bitcoin, which I hope we can talk about.
And the way that it not only removes the ability to coerce,
but it simply makes it impossible, You know, the the
decentralized nature of it, its governance model is very
interesting. And I do wonder whether
something like that can have more impact than maybe something
(15:29):
like the classic aid or education missions that come
into developing countries and seem to spend a lot of money,
but don't always have the impactthat maybe people would expect.
So how would you maybe describe that connection between
something like Bitcoin as this decentralized idea that is just
so powerful in that ability to remove coercion and to remove
(15:52):
that will to power versus maybe traditional aid, education
mission, trade mission attempts to kind of bring that stuff to
these countries? Yeah, it's also a difficult
topic. I mean, because in principle, of
course, I see everything that you say, like Bitcoin is
uncensorable. It's money sent from person to
(16:14):
person. No one can interfere, No one can
print more of it. And we all know all of that.
And so it's basically, it soundsperfect.
It's the perfect tool for this place, really.
It's absolutely the perfect tool.
But then you come here and you see the realities on the ground.
(16:35):
You know, like over the years a little bit.
I got a little bit frustrated here, to be honest, because I
feel like, hey people, this toolis so unique.
It's basically made for you. Why don't you use it?
But there are so many reasons and it starts with most of the
people here I used to like have from the top level down.
(16:56):
You know, if the government tells you you're allowed to do
something, you do it. If they don't say it, you think
it's illegal and you might not use it, then there have been a
variety of scams here. You know, it's not only the MLM
schemes, it's also that crypto and Bitcoin is only known from
(17:18):
these scams and from from betting, you know, online
gaming. People use cryptocurrency to do
online gaming because that's theway how they feel they can add
some more money to their lives because they can't earn anything
here. So there are a lot of I, shall I
say, challenges here for people to use Bitcoin, like say the
(17:45):
decrease of the like say the volatility of Bitcoin is a
problem. So first, you know, only know it
from a scam and you think it's illegal and you, you think you
need to wait for your governmentto allow you to use it.
What the government never will do.
Quite the opposite. They made it quite clear that
they don't like Bitcoin, they like blockchain, but of course
(18:08):
they don't like Bitcoin. They don't like it when their
people use it because then they know they have no possibility to
steal from them anymore. But on the other hand, they want
to use it themselves. I'm pretty sure that these
people here know about Bitcoin and that they use it.
(18:29):
So with the problem of volatility, of course, if you
have people who earn $300.00 a month and this is something
doctors earn here, that's not like a worker somewhere.
It's doctors and, and very, veryeducated people who have maybe
300, four, $100 a month. And then you want to use Bitcoin
(18:52):
to maybe save something, if you even can save something and then
the value goes down over a year,then you say I can't afford to
lose any of that. And that's why in the last
couple of years, like 5-3 years ago, I would say the, the 20% of
(19:12):
people here were asking for, I would like to exchange to
Bitcoin, I want to have Bitcoin and 80% were using USDT.
Today it's more like 95% are using USDT and 5% are using
Bitcoin as a store of value. And so the, the it's, it's
always, you know, when you learnabout Bitcoin and when you hear
(19:36):
about it's possibilities and opportunities and, and you
think, wow, that's the solution.That's the solution of to the
problem. But then when you're on the
ground and you see how life really goes on here and how a
few time people have to learn something.
And we're still we're still in the adoption phase of this
(19:58):
technology and the development phase of this technology where
you really need to explain how this works.
Yeah, it doesn't. I mean lightning.
The Lightning network is a great, great, great thing in
addition to Bitcoin to spend micro amounts to have low fees
(20:21):
and still retain self custody. But come here, explain someone
why you need a wallet that then has Bitcoin, lightning and maybe
also liquid, you know, because that might be easier to do self
custody with than with Phoenix or you just let them use wallet
(20:42):
of Satoshi. So when you are principled and
want to explain people really what they are using here so that
in the future they also make informed decisions, then it's
still too complicated. It's still much too much too
complicated, you know? And so there are so many things,
yeah, that we need time. Yeah.
(21:04):
Well, if, if I, if I'm hearing you correctly, I mean, maybe
the, the lens that we can use here to look at this is that
lens that you were quite straight up with, which is that
it is corruption from the highest level.
And when there is a gravy train for people in power to keep
people out of being emancipated,out of being wealthy, they're
(21:27):
not going to just ride it. And I think that's a really
interesting way to frame it because I do think maybe there's
some narratives out there that you know, that that's kind of
going to be good for Africa, right?
Which is kind of a very generic simplistic statement when
actually, as you say that the reality in a place like that or
for myself traveling to places like Tonga and and the Pacific
(21:48):
Islands, which are closer to, you know, to the New Zealand
experience, that it's pretty clear.
Like these people aren't going to be running nodes.
You know, they don't, you know, they don't have a computer at
home. They don't have you.
I mean, you haven't even got electricity right as we speak
right now. So there's kind of a bit of a
gap there. And I do wonder, again, I don't
expect us to answer the great question of Africa, but in terms
(22:09):
of the idea of like, well, how do these systems of thought
where someone could actually want to become successful and to
have a, a society that functionsbasically like what, what is the
mechanism that that makes that happen?
Why is it that New Zealand and Australia are functional
societies as colonies, yet Zimbabwe and South Africa are
not like what? What is the big difference
(22:30):
there? I don't know people.
I, I, I, I, I can't really tell you the, the that the system of
corruption is so ingrained in everyone.
You can't get anything almost without paying someone extra.
(22:51):
And it's AI mean people are driving here without licences.
I mean, they have licences, but they paid for it.
You can get, you can buy your way into getting citizenship
here. You know, you cannot buy
everything. It's it's the mindset and and I
(23:12):
don't know how you can reset that.
Yeah, well, especially how do you, how can you fix that
without violence is also the other one, right?
Because revolution after revolution, coup after coup,
that there's a lot of human suffering involved.
What does it look like for something to be aspirational and
hopeful? And I do wonder, Anita, whether
(23:32):
the role of communism in the 1970s and 1980s and Africa also
has something to do with this. Because New Zealand, Australia,
you know, Canada, these kinds ofplaces which were much closer to
the Anglo sphere, close to the Western world, there were
barriers to communism entering. Whereas I feel like some of that
revolutionary rhetoric, there's kind of centralisation of power
(23:56):
that had happened from from the Soviet influence.
I wonder, do you in your experience, has that had a
lasting impact or? Oh, I mean from that
perspective, yes, of course it, it has an impact.
I mean, up until today, many of the African countries and also
Zimbabwe are allies of of Russiaand that that might be true,
(24:21):
yes. But I mean, I don't want to put
it just to that, OK, these were communist countries or there
were communist influences and inother country colonies.
Not, you know, I don't know if this is the only reason, you
know, I, I, Yep. Yeah.
(24:41):
Well, so look, I mean, because Idon't want to bag on Zimbabwe
too much. I do wonder whether we can zoom
in a little bit and I want to focus on maybe some of the
successes you've had in particular at a local level.
You know, have you seen at a small scale even people who are
interested circular economies forming these kinds of things?
Tell me about that. Yes, of course.
I mean, it's, it's, I just wanted to tell a little bit
(25:04):
about the story. How, how when you sit in your
armchair at home, you might feelBitcoin is the greatest solution
and why is not everyone using itimmediately, you know, or why
are people not getting it? You know, because a lot of
people are then hating on these people who don't understand it.
You know, I, I just wanted to speak a little bit to that point
(25:24):
that there are reasons why people don't get it yet.
Of course we are having successes and it's really great
to see how these small communities are growing.
We started in 2020 here in in Zimbabwe with talks and
workshops. We are having a couple of
initiatives that sprang out of that work, like there's Bitcoin
(25:48):
reach in in Zimbabwe, a WhatsAppgroup.
Now we also, we're going to Bulovaio this week, which is the
second biggest city in Zimbabwe.We're going to meet there a
Bitcoin miner which I helped a couple of years ago to get some
(26:08):
ASICS miners donated to him because he told me he wants to
start mining. He has excess solar power and he
would like to try that and we'regoing there to to document what
has happened. We are also going to set up a
few bit access with him, you know these small home mining
devices and he is from he went to school there and now he has
(26:33):
the school project where they changed the, the pool, the
swimming pool of the school intoa fish pond and to have food for
the children and also to be ableto sell those fish.
And in winter, it's getting colder here.
And he wants to set up the miners that way that the heat of
(26:56):
the miners is basically warming the water.
So. And we're also going to meet a
young man who has been followingmy work since a couple of years.
And he now started his own initiative in Bulawayo.
They recently had a dresser Academy.
(27:17):
So, yeah, it's, it's, you know, it's tiny little seeds that are
starting to grow. A lot of work we also have been
doing in Zambia, which is the neighbor state here from
Zimbabwe, mainly in Lusaka. We I went there the first time
in 2022. I've been there four Times Now.
(27:39):
And we built or helped set up a community of bitcoiners.
And you know, the first thing you need to bring to people is
the fact that I'm doing Bitcoin only education and I try to tell
them why, what my reasons for that are, and that I feel that
many other crypto projects are just distractions and a lot of
(28:02):
them are scams. So you can really see with them,
like from the first event we didtogether in 2022, which was a
conference at the University of Zambia, there were other guys
who were speaking to mostly about blockchain and crypto and
one was even from X Infinity. And I was sitting there and
(28:26):
like, Oh my God. So I'm doing a Bitcoin
introduction and there is this guy from the scam.
I mean, you the the full blown size of the scam.
People didn't know back then, but I had my gut feeling about
it, you know, So one of these guys today, now he's a Bitcoin
(28:46):
only guy and he said, well, now I understand the differences and
he's even like saying to other people who want to work with
them and contribute. He says, yes, but you're doing
this Stella workshops. You're conducting these
workshops for Stella because youknow, these companies like
(29:06):
Stella, they have the money, they have the marketing money to
pay the people here. And that is the important thing
people all here need to be paid for what they're doing.
They don't have spare time like we to waste.
So they went basically from her.I'm a blockchain guy and crypto
to OK, now I understand Bitcoin only.
(29:28):
And we did last two weeks ago. We did 5 events there.
We also, we did the first developer meet up so to to let
people know or share the knowledge that people can and
shall take part in the development on Bitcoin and to
(29:49):
build their own solutions. Because I feel it's so important
that people in their countries themselves build their own
solutions. Because how should the Americans
or Europeans or wherever the developer sit know about the
problems here, you know, and, and, and the, the possible
(30:09):
solutions to it. Another thing we've been to
Bitcoin icasi the first time in 2022 in South Africa, it just
started in late 2021. And it's a circular community
that was initiated by Herman. He has a surf school in Muscle
(30:31):
Bay and they already had a program for the last 10 years
running where they basically taught children or helped them.
They they gave them food, they showed them how to learn to surf
and kids, these are kids from a Township.
So they are basically not havinga lot of opportunities there.
(30:56):
And then he learned about Bitcoin and about Bitcoin beach,
the project there and he decidedhe wants to start the circle
economy or try to start it in inthe Township.
And so he started to pay his surf teachers in Bitcoin and,
and they then went home basically in their area in the
(31:18):
Township and started to onboard merchants there.
And today, three years in, they have a small Bitcoin center and
Education Center. I met Bongani recently.
Bongani is one of the children who three years ago was still
trying to learn to surf. And he also learned about
(31:41):
Bitcoin. And I have a video on, like, a
small interview with him on YouTube.
And it's really, really warming the hearts of everyone because
this guy is now 16. He's getting 17 soon.
And he set up the Bitcoin and Lightning notes in the Bitcoin
Ekasi Center that are being usedfor their collaborative custody,
(32:05):
as far as I know. And he's fully into it.
You know, he's like, I wanted toknow why did Satoshi build it
like that and how is it working and all of that.
And now I want to become a developer and earn a lot and
then buy, of course, a house in the car.
Yeah. So.
So there are many people who arereally uplifted by it over the
(32:29):
years, but it's hard because like in between, like from 2022
to 2025, we had a bear market, you know, for a couple of
months, the value only deteriorated.
So setting up such a circular economy is also a real tough
task. You have to be very committed
(32:50):
and it takes a lot of also financial means to build that.
And Speaking of that, last thingI want to mention from Zimbabwe,
no Zambia, sorry, in Victoria Falls, because Victoria Falls is
at the border to Zimbabwe. That's basically for me, it's
always Zimbabwe and Zambia. Victoria Falls.
(33:11):
Victoria Falls is a, a, like Niagara Falls, you know, a big
waterfall, a tourist attraction.A lot of people from abroad,
tourists are coming to Victoria Falls.
So Adam, a guy from from the US started Bitcoin Victoria Falls
there and he was asking us, hey,you are doing a lot of work in
(33:36):
Zambia. I'm looking for a teacher.
And so we were talking with him and helping him to find Humphrey
from Lusaka from our community who now moved to Victoria Falls
and doing is doing the whole teaching there.
So they are also trying to set up a small circular economy
(33:57):
there by onboarding the shops. So the hope of course is that
enough shops are accepting Bitcoin so that also Bitcoiners
can come in Civic Falls, visit Zambia and Zimbabwe and also
spend their money there. So, but as I said, things are
(34:18):
very small at the beginning, butI still believe that if people
get it, then they will start using Bitcoin over other
cryptocurrencies. Yeah.
Oh, thank you for that detailed insight into what's going on in
that part of the world. I guess, you know, I get this
feeling, Anita. I mean, Bitcoin is, you know,
(34:40):
are very interested in helping others via education, sharing
what they know, and it's kind ofbaked into the open source
ethos. But I do wonder sometimes the,
the, the larger sociological geopolitical situation we're in
where somewhere like Zimbabwe really is just in between so
(35:02):
many hegemonic forces that, you know, we we can try our best and
be very earnest. And I think a lot of Bitcoiners
have very good intentions and outlook for this kind of stuff.
But in the face of raw power from a corrupt government, for
example, which has the monopoly on violence, there's actually
not that much we can do except huddle.
And so we've run into these challenges where I sometimes
(35:24):
wonder, you know, certain parts of the world, are they just
going to stay in this stagnant way of being for for the
foreseeable future? And is it a case that even
somewhere like New Zealand, where we've kind of inherited a
good system, but it's starting to decay, You know, we're, we're
just lucky, you know, I wonder, is there a bigger piece here
(35:44):
that we're missing out on that, you know what I mean?
Yeah. I, I, I, I think I do, yeah.
I mean, the bigger piece, I don't know what it is.
But what I also see is, yes, it's said that in a way,
democratic values and things arelike the whole system is
deteriorating. But I believe the problem is the
(36:05):
money system that we have. That's the problem.
And capitalism in a way is a problem.
I don't know how how we can makeit so it works better, but the
the the the current system makesthe rich richer and the poor
poorer. And this will always be used by
people for a monopoly of power. Yeah.
(36:27):
I mean, just look into the US What are the billionaires doing?
What do they want? Yeah, I mean, they want to
change the system. I see that.
But I don't think they want to change it for the better good of
everyone. They want to change it, change
it for their better good. They are no different then a
managua. Maybe they don't kill people,
(36:47):
but you'd also don't know that, you know, in a way they do.
Yeah. Not by yeah.
Sorry. Sorry, come again?
Yeah, I was just going to say. So pulling on that thread and
again, this is a bigger question, but I do wonder, I
mean, you talk about 1980 in Zimbabwe and I reflect on the
New Zealand story at that time, which was of course the
(37:09):
neoliberal reforms. And so I think an outright
criticism of capitalism, you know, maybe some people's
eyebrows may raise at that, but certainly this late stage Fiat
project, I think and maybe, you know, really represented by the
neoliberal reforms that kind of benefited New Zealand I guess in
a sense. But there was a lot of pain at
(37:29):
that time, but certainly what happened with Zimbabwe and at
that time was, was quite negative.
And so I guess there's, there's feels like there's just a larger
geopolitical move and Bitcoin isan opt out of that entire thing.
But that's hard because people don't, most people aren't ready
to kind of opt out of, of the system that they're in.
That's that's a pretty big ask. And so the actual work is on
(37:52):
reforming the money at writ large, which I imagine in the
Zimbabwe, what's what's it like at the moment?
I mean, are you guys experiencing inflation at the
moment? What's that like on a
day-to-day? Basis that's that's a permanent
status. So you mentioned, you mentioned,
you mentioned the Zimbabwe dollar before, like in the times
of the hyperinflation, 2008, 2009, which no coincidence is
(38:16):
also the same time of the big financial crisis worldwide.
There was the Zimbabwe dollar inbetween.
There was no Zimbabwe dollar. It was the US dollar only then
they reinvented the Zimbabwe dollar in 2019.
And what they did back then was you had an U.S. dollar account
in a Zimbabwean bank and from one day to the other, they told
(38:39):
you this is now not AUS dollar anymore, this is Zimbabwe
dollar. But don't fret, the value will
stay the same and everyone you know, you basically just stole
all my money. I know people who that happened
to them not only once, but already twice in their lives.
And so the, the, and then the Zimbabwe dollar from 2019 to
(39:02):
2024 inflated from I don't know what was the last thing 1 to 800
or 900 or something. And then what they did, they
invented a new currency. Now it's called the Sikh, the
Zimbabwean gold. And they say it's backed by
gold, but everyone here knows it's definitely not backed by
(39:26):
gold. I mean, this country has enough
gold and natural resources. But there is also a documentary
called the Gold Mafia on YouTube, which is very
interesting. And it's basically shows how
directly the the people in the government and their friends are
profiteering by stealing basically gold and washing U.S.
(39:50):
dollars. And So what was the question?
Sorry. Well, we were.
No, no. No, no.
It's like a we were, we were just exploring though this, this
larger. You were asking me about
inflation. Yeah, exactly.
So it's yes. So the same is happening again.
So they invented that sick. And it's inflating already.
(40:13):
So last April, I think April, might, May, it was that they
forced the people to use the Zimbabwe gold.
And today they rate like, no, let's say 3 weeks ago when I was
asking in the shops what's the rate, they were telling me it's
1 to 31 and this week it was 1 to 41.
(40:35):
So the game is on all the time. This won't stop.
That's their method of stealing value from the people.
Yeah. No, I thank you.
I thank you for that answer. Because you were speaking about
the neoliberal agenda and, and the, let's say, the good
dictators. You know, the I'm, I'm President
(40:57):
Bukhale. I'm a happy dictator.
Ha, ha, ha. Yeah, what they're doing here is
the prime example of where thesecountries are going to be in a
couple of years if this doesn't change.
That's my opinion. This shows you a way of, I don't
(41:17):
know, I don't know, have, I don't have the right word for
it. It's a military violent LED
capitalism by the powerful, something like that.
And it's a system. And to break that system, you
really, as you said, you need some sort of violence.
(41:39):
And how I how I feel that many of these countries might end up
a little bit like Zimbabwe because, yeah, I think the
billionaires are not going to work in the interest of
everyone. Mostly in their interest.
Yeah. Well, it's, it's very
interesting. And again, this is this is a
much bigger topic, but I think there is something going on at a
(42:03):
structural level. And I think we can be nuanced
enough to unpick the rhetoric ofwhat would be communist
ideology, neoliberal ideology. I think we can look at all of
these quite clearly from the 3rdplace, which is Bitcoin.
And this is one of the things that Bitcoin's actually really
good for, just from a educational perspective, the
(42:24):
epistemology of money. It's like we can be in Bitcoin
and kind of be outside of that world and look in on it.
But one thing I did want to justpull on was you talked about
Tether, USDT being used quite a lot.
And I do wonder if there's something to that in terms of
the US dollarization, which had happened from 2019, right, or
(42:48):
until 2019 in Zimbabwe. So let's talk to me about the US
dollar and the part of the worldthat you're in.
Absolutely. It has to do with that and it's,
I mean the country is officiallya multi currency country.
So people are still using the USdollar.
I mean the US dollar, the country is basically dollarized.
(43:08):
No one wants to use the Zimbabwegold because everyone knows it
loses it's value and everyone wants to get access and hold
U.S. dollars. So it's AUS dollar economy and
that's why also people have learnt over the years that
despite the fact that the US dollar is also losing value over
(43:28):
time due to inflation, for them it's totally stable.
It's their security system. And in that sense, of course
there is also this. I know already what the US
dollar is. OK, now I have a digital U.S.
dollar. That's my savings instrument
now, or my at least the instrument where I, where I
(43:49):
don't lose value. So, so of course that's, that's
what people know here and that'swhy they use it.
And what they want from cryptocurrency is in fact
something that is stable, that they can use fast, cheap.
I also heard from someone who isa money trader, basically a
(44:11):
peer-to-peer trader. He told me he's like a couple of
years ago when I met him the first time he was telling me
he's a bitcoiner. Last week he told me he's, sorry
to say, but he is a tether guy now because there are
predictable fees on Tether and they he doesn't have that with,
(44:33):
with Bitcoin either on chain or lightning.
Because I showed him the Phoenix, the self custodial
Lightning wallet once and he opened the channel and it was at
the time when the fees were veryhigh.
And so he had to open a channel on on the chain, which meant
that from his $70 he put in 30 were used for fees.
(44:55):
He's never going to use that again.
And so people need predictable fees, they need predictable
value. That's sadly a fact.
And only those who who really understand the difference
between Tether or other stable coins or cryptocurrencies to
Bitcoin, the uniqueness of Bitcoin, they will try to start
(45:19):
acquiring Bitcoin in one or the other way.
I'm absolutely, absolutely convinced about that.
But the maturity of people needsa stable value and something
where they can calculate with. Yeah.
Well, just one kind of one otherconcept that I often return to
Anita, is, you know, New Zealand, a former Prime Minister
(45:42):
talked a lot about the two tier society during the COVID years.
And I do sometimes wonder whether something like that
really applies to what we're seeing with Bitcoin, where for
the vast majority of citizens ofthe world, maybe they're going
to use some sort of digital CBDC, digital dollar.
And then for the people who choose self sovereignty, Bitcoin
(46:02):
is the option that's available to them.
But I do question this idea thatmaybe we never see mass adoption
of Bitcoin, but it's not just simply for those who decide to
use it. And is this a reality that
you're sort of thinking about? Maybe Bitcoin is really for
those who choose it and not for everyone who doesn't want it
sort of thing. Maybe I don't know what the
(46:23):
future will bring, but at the moment we are also in a phase
like here, people really need tospend their money.
They can't just hold it like a lot of us in Western countries
can. You know, like the, the Bitcoin
scene itself is very dominated, at least what you can read on
social media and stuff is very dominated by the mindset of I'm
(46:45):
huddling unto death. You know, like I, I, I will
never spend my Bitcoin. I don't want to end up like the
pizza guy, ha ha ha. He spent 10,000 Bitcoin on 2
pizzas. Well, he actually was a great
guy because what he did not onlywas the first purchase in
Bitcoin, so it set the, the value of Bitcoin in a way back
(47:07):
then. And he also doesn't regret
anything because he was working in this space and he he moved on
to earn and spend Bitcoin. So I feel he's very well off
today. So yes, in a way, we don't know
how it turns out. But if it's just a store of
value and people can't afford self custody or some form of
(47:32):
self custody, maybe not full self custody, but at least part
in parts, in a way, it's that it's uncensorable, at least in
their own countries, you know, and, and when, how should I say?
I think people will also learn when in Europe and, and in the
US, when the system as we see it, it deteriorates, it decays,
(47:56):
it might fall apart. The current system then
definitely I think that people will learn and see that Bitcoin
is out of that, you know, it's an alternative to it.
It's your lifeboat in a way and and the the fact that a lot of
people don't have the same chances and don't have the same
(48:17):
opportunities to start using Bitcoin now in this still early
phase is sad. But it's a general problem that
we have because also technology,like people here only for a
couple of years, they now have smartphones, but Internet
connectivity, mobile data is so expensive that most of them
(48:39):
can't afford. So they are left out.
Again, you know, this is a scheme.
We we can't solve that problem with Bitcoin.
I don't know if there's any solution to it at all to be
honest. Yeah, Well, I, I guess what I'm
getting at, I think, I mean, obviously my lot is in with the
Bitcoiners and you know, I want to see this thing succeed and
(49:02):
emancipate people from the stateand these challenges that you've
described today. But I do wonder, I had a really
interesting conversation with the people from a project called
Bit Credit, which is trying to build circular economies and
enabling credit notes and some of these instruments of business
that are a little bit more fundamental than maybe consumer
(49:26):
payments. And I think this is a big thing
in the Bitcoin world is circulareconomies that are focused on
consumer payments for buying some stuff in a shop and having
a number of shops together. But actually when you look at
the supply chains of a country like Zimbabwe, what does it mean
for energy, fuel, raw materials and their supply chain to
actually be priced in Bitcoin? That's a very, that's quite a
(49:47):
step further along than where I think the infrastructure is AT.
And so we had a really good conversation and I think that
opened my mind up to actually, there is still some work to be
done to build this kind of financial infrastructure of this
whole new thing on Bitcoin at which we just don't have at the
moment. And at the same time, that's
actually really easy to do with the US dollar because everyone
(50:09):
wants, you know, everyone will take U.S. dollars.
I'll take U.S. dollars, you know, if they're available.
And I think that kind of promotes a future version of the
world that's actually dominated by the US dollar or its
competitor. And and still I see Bitcoin is
sitting outside of that. And so that's just kind of an
interesting dilemma. I don't have any answers for
you, but it's very interesting. Yeah, yeah.
(50:31):
I mean, it's definitely interesting and still it could
be that in like 10 or 20 years, we don't know how it's going,
but that the system and I mean that the the global that
countries start realising and also using Bitcoin as a neutral
form of transformation of value or transfer of value between all
(50:53):
the countries and all the people.
You know, maybe we fall back, maybe more and more people learn
about the advantages of something that cannot be changed
by any party. You know, it's only can be
changed in a consensus of everyone who's using it.
And I mean, the world is using the Internet, you know, that one
(51:14):
TCPIP blah blah blah protocol. So maybe they've, we fall all
back and realise, OK, actually, as Andrea Santanopoulos said,
Bitcoin is the Internet of money.
So just use it, you know, no one, neither the Americans nor
the Chinese, can influence it. I am curious though, I mean,
again, Zimbabwe, it's like the the poster child for
(51:36):
hyperinflation. But when you've had
conversations with people, real people in Zimbabwe, what, what
is their reaction when you talk about some of the properties
that we look at in terms of fixed supply, inflation
resistance? Do their eyes light up or do
they sort of not really get it even though they they should be
the ones who ought to understandit the most?
(51:56):
Like what's your lived experience being talking to
people about it? Now, if you tell them that they
most, most of them, their eyes light up and they say really,
but then there is a lot of doubt.
Can that really work? Because you know, you need to
learn so much of about Bitcoin to really understand that really
no one can influence it or try to, you know, and and with
(52:19):
others and uncensorability come from these are also alien
concepts to people that they might not really believe you.
They can't, they don't trust youthat it's really true and only
when you use it, when you show them, look here, I have Bitcoin
in that wallet, they belong to me.
(52:39):
There is this website. I can now via that website,
whichispetrifield.com, I can send airtime into the phone of
your friend in Malawi and we aresitting in South Africa.
And when you do that and the friend in Malawi says, hey, I
got airtime, I have it. They are just like blown away
and say, how is this working? And then that's the that's the
(53:03):
way to really drive interest, toshow them something that is
practical for them, that is solving a real problem they
have. And from there, but most of most
of them also don't want to learnmore about Bitcoin.
It's only always a few people who get it who who have their
own, I don't know, interests setup that way or their experiences
(53:27):
in life. You know, it's also important
what I have your experience has been so far that you can take in
what Bitcoin can offer you, you know, And so, yeah, I, I feel
for the mess adoption. We're still too early.
The the tools are still not working in a reliable way that
you have fixed fees that you know what you can expect, But we
(53:51):
are on the way. I mean, people are building on
Bitcoin like crazy. And I'm, I'm still very
optimistic about that. And the great thing about it is,
yes, it might be difficult for those who can't afford that now
or don't have the headspace or the education to use it, but at
least it's open for anyone and permissionless.
(54:14):
And that I feel is so important that we keep the keep up the
permissionlessness and the non KYC usage of Bitcoin because
otherwise we, I feel we don't really need Bitcoin.
You know, I mean, it's still great because you can still use
it. And I will, it will be there
forever as a, as an opt out. And I feel the, these are that's
(54:36):
what makes me so optimistic thatthere is an exit.
We have something now where we can put or hard earned money
and, and be a little bit optimistic and hopeful about the
future. At least no one can take it away
from us. Yeah.
No, thank you for that. And I think as I said, there's
(54:57):
there's kind of a higher level breakdown of what's going on
here where you do have the consumer payments as you just
described, but refill and helping people on their
day-to-day. But the real nuts and bolts of
an economy in terms of producingand exporting goods, that sort
of thing still somewhere to go. But I do think Lindy effect
(55:17):
comes into play. The longer this thing stands is
around, the longer it holds a floor price, at least in the
global market and especially compared to local currencies.
It's, it's maybe going to continue to grow and, and, and
people will learn about it hopefully.
But I, I guess what this all comes back to is what I
mentioned at the beginning was the role of education.
(55:39):
And it's a big focus of your work with Bitcoin for fairness
and your, your work educating people.
So I wanted to just maybe reflect on that Anita, your,
your outlook for this year, talking more about your
education work and kind of helping people understand what
Bitcoin could do for them. Yeah.
So basically a big part of my year has already happened, like
(56:04):
I've spent from December basically during to May now,
like end of no, sorry, end of April on the continent.
And we did a lot of work there. And going forward, I'm focusing
on Crack the Orange, which is a website, which is an online
(56:25):
learning platform for anyone whowants to learn more about
Bitcoin. It's for beginners and
definitely also people who are alittle bit advanced already.
But I feel there are a lot of we're just building a new
database, a Bitcoin knowledge library basically additionally
to the course program. And the next thing is also we
(56:48):
are having scholarships there sothat people aspiring educators
or developers that are new in the Bitcoin and lightning space,
but they want to contribute, they can also apply for a
scholarship. So people from the global South
or from areas where they are being disadvantaged and could
not afford a, a, an education like that.
(57:11):
Otherwise they can apply for a scholarship.
And we had like, I think now we are having 120 applications so
far and 43 people, if I remembercorrectly, have finished the
whole course. Now a lot of them are already
driving their own initiatives onthe ground because that's the
(57:34):
goal. We've cracked the orange to
spread information wide and far and for free so that people can
start their own educational initiatives.
And we are also having a monthlylive call where all these people
who are learning about Bitcoin can come together.
(57:54):
They are from different countries like South Africa,
Tanzania, Kenya, Zambia, and they can also interact with each
other and exchange ideas. What has been working in their
work on the ground and what hasn't and things like that.
And then my goal this year is also to write like update my
(58:18):
book, like put a new edition of my learn on Bitcoin book out
there with all the learnings I had had myself about the
technology in the last couple ofyears.
And also, you know, it's a fast moving technology.
So you need to, I need to revisit the, the wallets I'm
referring to and things like that because everything changes
(58:39):
so fast. And yeah, at the end of the
year, I might be going to Brazil, to Satskunf and maybe
we're thinking about spending some time in Mexico.
We have someone there who is very connected with underground,
with communities and then I, it's just too far in the future
(59:02):
to be honest. But yeah, I'll, I'll definitely
keep on doing what we have been doing and refining it and make
it even better. Oh yeah, that's awesome.
And if people want to follow along, crack the orange and
that's which. Is that as a part of Bitcoin?
For fairness, this is a separateentity.
How? It's no, it's it's basically all
(59:24):
a part of Bitcoin for fairness. So and we have two approaches
there. The one is the free education
for educators and the other one is basically you can also sign
up and pay for a course with me and and then ask me directly
questions. And that's correct the
orange.com. But if people want to follow me,
(59:48):
the best actually is to subscribe to the free
newsletter, which you can find at Anita dot link slash news.
And most of the times, I mean, I'm on on X still, but I'm
actually posting more on Nosta. I feel Nosta is also a great
technology. With similar characteristics
(01:00:12):
like Bitcoin and I just feel that this is the way to go also
in communication and publishing your thoughts and and everything
and I'm very excited about the developments there too.
Yeah, OK. That's awesome.
I really appreciate that, Anita,and thank you so much for
(01:00:33):
bearing with us as we deal with Internet and electricity issues
on this call. But it was great to talk to you
in person. Yeah.
Thank you very much. Yes, thank you very much for the
invitation. I enjoyed it very much.
Thank you, Cody.
Then they reinvented the Zimbabwe dollar in 2019 and what
they did back then was you had an U.S. dollar account in a
Zimbabwean bank and from one dayto the other they told you this
is now not AUS dollar anymore, this is Zimbabwe dollar.
But don't fret, the value will stay the same.
(00:21):
And everyone knew. No, you basically just stole all
my money. Hello, I am Cody Allingham and
this is the Transformation of Value, a place for thinkers and
builders where we ask questions about freedom, Bitcoin and
creativity. My guest today is Anita Posh, A
strategic Bitcoin advisor, educator, author and founder of
(00:44):
Bitcoin for Fairness. Since 2017 she has been speaking
on the biggest and the smallest stages to bring Bitcoin
knowledge to thousands of people.
Anita has travelled extensively including to places such as
Zambia, South Africa, Ghana, Indonesia, El Salvador, El
Salvador and Zimbabwe where she is currently based, learning
(01:04):
first hand about how local economies develop and how
Bitcoin is being used. Anita, welcome to the show.
Hello, Cody. Yeah, it's great being here.
Thanks for the invitation. I want to start with a bit of a
contrast because I know you weretravelling through New Zealand
last year and now you're in Harare, Zimbabwe.
(01:26):
What strikes you as the difference and, importantly, the
similarities between these two countries?
It's funny how that you asked that because when I was in New
Zealand I was very often reminded of Zimbabwe.
I mean, they both have a Britishhistory and architecture in that
sense, and also the landscape sometimes.
(01:49):
I don't know. I mean, of course it's totally
different, but from the way of life.
What I enjoyed in New Zealand isalso people are very much laid
back. They are not like carrying
around their status a lot like in I annoyed from Europe and
(02:09):
from the US and from other partsof the world and Zimbabwe is
very similar. I mean, one reason why people
can't carry their status around is that a lot of them don't,
don't have any. But, but in general, people are
more chilled here, you know, like nobody looks what you're
wearing, for instance. You know, I mean, of course you
(02:31):
dress up a little bit when you go somewhere, but in the end it
doesn't really matter. And and you don't feel that
pressure that you have in other regions of, of the world.
So it was funny because I sometimes in New Zealand said I
just feel like in Zimbabwe here.Oh, interesting.
(02:52):
So, so yeah. So you you had been to Zimbabwe
before, so this isn't your firsttime being there.
Yes, it's my, I assume fifth time.
I'm not quite sure, but yes, I think the fifth time.
I came the first time in 2020 just before the pandemic.
So I made it out of the country before the airports closed and
(03:14):
and went back to Austria. Yeah, that's, that's fascinating
because the, the reason I wantedto ask is growing up, you know,
I had a lot of friends come fromSouth Africa, Zimbabwe, you
know, basically got out, especially after 2008 or around
about that period. And certainly what you said
strikes me when you do look on Google Maps and you just do
(03:35):
Street View and you compare South Africa, Zimbabwe, just
look at the the way the cities look.
They have that certain look thatit reminds me of New Zealand.
But and I guess, and that's the similarities, but the difference
is we must look at the economy. And right now you're
experiencing a power cut as we speak.
So we're on battery power in Zimbabwe.
(03:56):
You're using a Starlink. I assume load shedding is a
daily occurrence. It seems there's maybe a lot of
economic turmoil. So I guess in that sense, how
have these two countries or how,how is I guess broadly Africa
and say somewhere like New Zealand sort of changed or
deferred over the last few decades?
My so how has it changed? I can't say over the last
(04:19):
decades because I'm only here inin the African continent since
2020. But of course, I mean taking
Zimbabwe as an example, Zimbabweis extreme, but also in South
Africa. So after a short period after
the independence of these countries where they still,
(04:42):
they're prosperous. And I mean, South Africa has a
totally different story in a waythan Zimbabwe.
But one fact I, for instance, didn't know before I came here,
there was also apartheid in Zimbabwe, like full blown
apartheid. I never heard about that in
school or anywhere else. So it's interesting from that
perspective. So they had these challenges of
(05:07):
how power was taken over by people from here and the British
had basically to go home. There were different ways how
they did that. But the, the, the sad thing in
many African countries that you can see is that people, how
(05:27):
shall I say they developed a sadly a very corrupt power
structure Here in many of these countries, we see long term
authoritarian presidents who tryto throw over the constitution.
I mean, we don't only see that in Africa at the moment, also in
other places of this world. And what you can especially see
(05:52):
here in Zimbabwe is how the, the, the, the monetary system
that we have at the moment, the Fiat system is definitely a
driver of disparities. I mean, you have very rich
people here, but also very, verypoor people.
(06:13):
And the system of that central banks and consumer banks are
giving out credit and basically lending money away and people
have to pay back their loans. And that's the way how we create
money. And that central banks here,
they, they really just print themoney.
(06:35):
This is not, you know, in, in other areas of the world we say,
OK, we have 2% inflation or maybe 3 or 4, but we have a
control system with the central bank and things like that.
But here it's really blatant printing of money.
So it's really the IT really is an example of how you can use
(07:00):
the system to squeeze everythingout of people.
So infrastructure, as you said, it's totally down.
I mean, just as an example that we, we, we have a municipal
water system, but it's not working since 10 or 15 years
here. But we need still need to pay
(07:20):
for the fact that we are connected to the system, which
is ridiculous because we don't get get any water from there
electricity. As you said, the the government
tells people. Oh, yeah, we have problems.
Sorry, we are not producing enough electricity for the
demand, but just get yourself a solar system.
(07:44):
I mean, this is for people like us something OK, OK, we need to
put a little bit of money aside and buy a solar system.
But most of the population in these countries in these areas
can't afford that. So all these corruption and
problems produce a world where you are even more disempowered
(08:08):
because now you can't be a part of the global digital economy,
for instance, You know. So it's a lot of difficulties
that you face here. And this also, interestingly
enough, plays into the adoption of cryptocurrencies and Bitcoin.
Yeah, all new technologies. Yeah, I do want to dive into
(08:32):
that, but I guess lingering on the politics and money point for
a moment, this is really interesting.
As I said, friends from Zimbabweand New Zealand, everyone's
familiar with the Zimbabwe dollar, like the trillion dollar
notes and that sort of thing. I've got one actually the $500
billion not not that much back back at home in New Zealand and
(08:55):
obviously 2008 Robert Mugabe does this period of
hyperinflation is quite well known.
But again, I want to connect that back to the New Zealand
story because New Zealand is agricultural country export
orientated Zimbabwe, the bread basket of Africa and now the
basket case potentially. And so seeing that connection
(09:16):
between what was once a very prosperous nation and what it
has become, and the connections also to what you said about
British culture, because Ian Smith, one of the former prime
ministers during before Robert Mugabe, said Zimbabwe was more
British than Britain. And the same thing could be said
about somewhere like New Zealand, where we've hailed on
to a lot of these old ideas. Yet somehow New Zealand has made
(09:40):
it through whereas Zimbabwe hasn't.
And I am curious sort of that connection between politics and
money and then potentially even education, because unlike New
Zealand, Zimbabwe had a very radical and quick change of
power and that sort of led to maybe people coming in who
didn't understand how to run a country.
And so is this something that plays into this as lack of
(10:01):
governance and education? I don't think it's lack of
education because today's finance minister here, he went
to university in England. I think they know what they're
doing. But I also believe that the the
sudden change of power in 1980, there was, as far as I know, no
(10:23):
period of like learning, OK, youtake over now.
This is how governance is well done at the moment and maybe do
it the same way. And there's also, sadly, I think
the the, the takeover or the theway how it was given the the
(10:44):
people weren't chosen the right way.
You know, it were the strongest and and and the roof most
ruthless people who got into power then.
And and that's the problem, because what they did then is
they started. I mean, there's a saying people
say here the government, the thethe the people in power, they
(11:05):
want to eat. It's called who's next to eat,
basically, you know, So that means who is in power and who is
going to get rich because they're extracting all the value
from the people and the country and.
And that's how it goes. And so it's a very corrupted
mindset. I don't know.
(11:27):
I mean, these people have no shame in that sense.
And there's no control because they took over all the power.
I mean, just this week, last week, there were demonstrations,
but it seems there's no opposition at the moment.
Yeah. They are basically the, the
(11:49):
violence of the current regime. It seems it's even higher than
the one under Mugabe. And that's the problem because
people are scared you, you don'tgo out on the streets when you
know you will be shot because that's what happened in 2017 or
19 I think, I can't remember exactly.
(12:11):
So that's that's the main problem.
And the the whole it's a very well maintained machinery here
of power and corruption. Like in in 2017, Angagawa was
supported by the military and hetook over basically from Mugabe.
That was a coup. And now he how was that?
(12:34):
I recently read that from 2017 up until today, because the
military basically was led by the current Vice President and
the current vice president called out Managua and his
people about the corruption and that it's not a key what they're
doing. And so the military was in
(12:56):
recent years, basically the resistance in a little bit
against Managua, but they killeda lot of the military officers.
So there are not many left. So as at the moment it seems
that the power is back in Managua's hands or not really in
his hands, but in the, in the, in the system's hands, because
(13:18):
there are rumours that he has dementia, you know, but then
also Robert Mugabe was a puppet in a sense because he also
didn't have a clear mind anymore.
You, you heard that when he was speaking.
So it's a very complex system and people are scared and, and
the corruption goes from top down to anyone.
(13:39):
You know, I heard from people who were opposition members and
then they see they don't get anymoney from that.
They can't earn a lot. And then they go to the Sino PF
because they are, they get funds, you know, So it's really
sitting very deeply here in the system.
It's corruption and yeah, power corrupts and too much power
(14:03):
definitely corrupts. And that's why it's important
that in in other countries that there's a system of, yeah,
governance and control, that corruption can't happen.
But it's difficult. We know that, you know.
Yeah, well, I must say I perhapsreveal my naivety from a Kiwi
perspective when I mention, you know, is simply a case of
(14:25):
education. Because I guess the strata of
the New Zealand democratic system, governance, all of this
has been inherited from what would be considered the high
point of enlightenment. And, you know, the British
Empire and all of this separation of powers and all of
these things that have come through time.
And so we, there's just an entire social system built upon
(14:48):
that. And that when you're in a place
where that doesn't exist, it becomes what you describe,
corruption, warlordism, you know, just the will to power.
And it's I guess an interesting thing because, you know, I don't
expect us to answer the questionof Africa today, but in this
conversation, But, you know, it seems like there's some kind of
(15:08):
connection here with Bitcoin, which I hope we can talk about.
And the way that it not only removes the ability to coerce,
but it simply makes it impossible, You know, the the
decentralized nature of it, its governance model is very
interesting. And I do wonder whether
something like that can have more impact than maybe something
(15:29):
like the classic aid or education missions that come
into developing countries and seem to spend a lot of money,
but don't always have the impactthat maybe people would expect.
So how would you maybe describe that connection between
something like Bitcoin as this decentralized idea that is just
so powerful in that ability to remove coercion and to remove
(15:52):
that will to power versus maybe traditional aid, education
mission, trade mission attempts to kind of bring that stuff to
these countries? Yeah, it's also a difficult
topic. I mean, because in principle, of
course, I see everything that you say, like Bitcoin is
uncensorable. It's money sent from person to
(16:14):
person. No one can interfere, No one can
print more of it. And we all know all of that.
And so it's basically, it soundsperfect.
It's the perfect tool for this place, really.
It's absolutely the perfect tool.
But then you come here and you see the realities on the ground.
(16:35):
You know, like over the years a little bit.
I got a little bit frustrated here, to be honest, because I
feel like, hey people, this toolis so unique.
It's basically made for you. Why don't you use it?
But there are so many reasons and it starts with most of the
people here I used to like have from the top level down.
(16:56):
You know, if the government tells you you're allowed to do
something, you do it. If they don't say it, you think
it's illegal and you might not use it, then there have been a
variety of scams here. You know, it's not only the MLM
schemes, it's also that crypto and Bitcoin is only known from
(17:18):
these scams and from from betting, you know, online
gaming. People use cryptocurrency to do
online gaming because that's theway how they feel they can add
some more money to their lives because they can't earn anything
here. So there are a lot of I, shall I
say, challenges here for people to use Bitcoin, like say the
(17:45):
decrease of the like say the volatility of Bitcoin is a
problem. So first, you know, only know it
from a scam and you think it's illegal and you, you think you
need to wait for your governmentto allow you to use it.
What the government never will do.
Quite the opposite. They made it quite clear that
they don't like Bitcoin, they like blockchain, but of course
(18:08):
they don't like Bitcoin. They don't like it when their
people use it because then they know they have no possibility to
steal from them anymore. But on the other hand, they want
to use it themselves. I'm pretty sure that these
people here know about Bitcoin and that they use it.
(18:29):
So with the problem of volatility, of course, if you
have people who earn $300.00 a month and this is something
doctors earn here, that's not like a worker somewhere.
It's doctors and, and very, veryeducated people who have maybe
300, four, $100 a month. And then you want to use Bitcoin
(18:52):
to maybe save something, if you even can save something and then
the value goes down over a year,then you say I can't afford to
lose any of that. And that's why in the last
couple of years, like 5-3 years ago, I would say the, the 20% of
(19:12):
people here were asking for, I would like to exchange to
Bitcoin, I want to have Bitcoin and 80% were using USDT.
Today it's more like 95% are using USDT and 5% are using
Bitcoin as a store of value. And so the, the it's, it's
always, you know, when you learnabout Bitcoin and when you hear
(19:36):
about it's possibilities and opportunities and, and you
think, wow, that's the solution.That's the solution of to the
problem. But then when you're on the
ground and you see how life really goes on here and how a
few time people have to learn something.
And we're still we're still in the adoption phase of this
(19:58):
technology and the development phase of this technology where
you really need to explain how this works.
Yeah, it doesn't. I mean lightning.
The Lightning network is a great, great, great thing in
addition to Bitcoin to spend micro amounts to have low fees
(20:21):
and still retain self custody. But come here, explain someone
why you need a wallet that then has Bitcoin, lightning and maybe
also liquid, you know, because that might be easier to do self
custody with than with Phoenix or you just let them use wallet
(20:42):
of Satoshi. So when you are principled and
want to explain people really what they are using here so that
in the future they also make informed decisions, then it's
still too complicated. It's still much too much too
complicated, you know? And so there are so many things,
yeah, that we need time. Yeah.
(21:04):
Well, if, if I, if I'm hearing you correctly, I mean, maybe
the, the lens that we can use here to look at this is that
lens that you were quite straight up with, which is that
it is corruption from the highest level.
And when there is a gravy train for people in power to keep
people out of being emancipated,out of being wealthy, they're
(21:27):
not going to just ride it. And I think that's a really
interesting way to frame it because I do think maybe there's
some narratives out there that you know, that that's kind of
going to be good for Africa, right?
Which is kind of a very generic simplistic statement when
actually, as you say that the reality in a place like that or
for myself traveling to places like Tonga and and the Pacific
(21:48):
Islands, which are closer to, you know, to the New Zealand
experience, that it's pretty clear.
Like these people aren't going to be running nodes.
You know, they don't, you know, they don't have a computer at
home. They don't have you.
I mean, you haven't even got electricity right as we speak
right now. So there's kind of a bit of a
gap there. And I do wonder, again, I don't
expect us to answer the great question of Africa, but in terms
(22:09):
of the idea of like, well, how do these systems of thought
where someone could actually want to become successful and to
have a, a society that functionsbasically like what, what is the
mechanism that that makes that happen?
Why is it that New Zealand and Australia are functional
societies as colonies, yet Zimbabwe and South Africa are
not like what? What is the big difference
(22:30):
there? I don't know people.
I, I, I, I, I can't really tell you the, the that the system of
corruption is so ingrained in everyone.
You can't get anything almost without paying someone extra.
(22:51):
And it's AI mean people are driving here without licences.
I mean, they have licences, but they paid for it.
You can get, you can buy your way into getting citizenship
here. You know, you cannot buy
everything. It's it's the mindset and and I
(23:12):
don't know how you can reset that.
Yeah, well, especially how do you, how can you fix that
without violence is also the other one, right?
Because revolution after revolution, coup after coup,
that there's a lot of human suffering involved.
What does it look like for something to be aspirational and
hopeful? And I do wonder, Anita, whether
(23:32):
the role of communism in the 1970s and 1980s and Africa also
has something to do with this. Because New Zealand, Australia,
you know, Canada, these kinds ofplaces which were much closer to
the Anglo sphere, close to the Western world, there were
barriers to communism entering. Whereas I feel like some of that
revolutionary rhetoric, there's kind of centralisation of power
(23:56):
that had happened from from the Soviet influence.
I wonder, do you in your experience, has that had a
lasting impact or? Oh, I mean from that
perspective, yes, of course it, it has an impact.
I mean, up until today, many of the African countries and also
Zimbabwe are allies of of Russiaand that that might be true,
(24:21):
yes. But I mean, I don't want to put
it just to that, OK, these were communist countries or there
were communist influences and inother country colonies.
Not, you know, I don't know if this is the only reason, you
know, I, I, Yep. Yeah.
(24:41):
Well, so look, I mean, because Idon't want to bag on Zimbabwe
too much. I do wonder whether we can zoom
in a little bit and I want to focus on maybe some of the
successes you've had in particular at a local level.
You know, have you seen at a small scale even people who are
interested circular economies forming these kinds of things?
Tell me about that. Yes, of course.
I mean, it's, it's, I just wanted to tell a little bit
(25:04):
about the story. How, how when you sit in your
armchair at home, you might feelBitcoin is the greatest solution
and why is not everyone using itimmediately, you know, or why
are people not getting it? You know, because a lot of
people are then hating on these people who don't understand it.
You know, I, I just wanted to speak a little bit to that point
(25:24):
that there are reasons why people don't get it yet.
Of course we are having successes and it's really great
to see how these small communities are growing.
We started in 2020 here in in Zimbabwe with talks and
workshops. We are having a couple of
initiatives that sprang out of that work, like there's Bitcoin
(25:48):
reach in in Zimbabwe, a WhatsAppgroup.
Now we also, we're going to Bulovaio this week, which is the
second biggest city in Zimbabwe.We're going to meet there a
Bitcoin miner which I helped a couple of years ago to get some
(26:08):
ASICS miners donated to him because he told me he wants to
start mining. He has excess solar power and he
would like to try that and we'regoing there to to document what
has happened. We are also going to set up a
few bit access with him, you know these small home mining
devices and he is from he went to school there and now he has
(26:33):
the school project where they changed the, the pool, the
swimming pool of the school intoa fish pond and to have food for
the children and also to be ableto sell those fish.
And in winter, it's getting colder here.
And he wants to set up the miners that way that the heat of
(26:56):
the miners is basically warming the water.
So. And we're also going to meet a
young man who has been followingmy work since a couple of years.
And he now started his own initiative in Bulawayo.
They recently had a dresser Academy.
(27:17):
So, yeah, it's, it's, you know, it's tiny little seeds that are
starting to grow. A lot of work we also have been
doing in Zambia, which is the neighbor state here from
Zimbabwe, mainly in Lusaka. We I went there the first time
in 2022. I've been there four Times Now.
(27:39):
And we built or helped set up a community of bitcoiners.
And you know, the first thing you need to bring to people is
the fact that I'm doing Bitcoin only education and I try to tell
them why, what my reasons for that are, and that I feel that
many other crypto projects are just distractions and a lot of
(28:02):
them are scams. So you can really see with them,
like from the first event we didtogether in 2022, which was a
conference at the University of Zambia, there were other guys
who were speaking to mostly about blockchain and crypto and
one was even from X Infinity. And I was sitting there and
(28:26):
like, Oh my God. So I'm doing a Bitcoin
introduction and there is this guy from the scam.
I mean, you the the full blown size of the scam.
People didn't know back then, but I had my gut feeling about
it, you know, So one of these guys today, now he's a Bitcoin
(28:46):
only guy and he said, well, now I understand the differences and
he's even like saying to other people who want to work with
them and contribute. He says, yes, but you're doing
this Stella workshops. You're conducting these
workshops for Stella because youknow, these companies like
(29:06):
Stella, they have the money, they have the marketing money to
pay the people here. And that is the important thing
people all here need to be paid for what they're doing.
They don't have spare time like we to waste.
So they went basically from her.I'm a blockchain guy and crypto
to OK, now I understand Bitcoin only.
(29:28):
And we did last two weeks ago. We did 5 events there.
We also, we did the first developer meet up so to to let
people know or share the knowledge that people can and
shall take part in the development on Bitcoin and to
(29:49):
build their own solutions. Because I feel it's so important
that people in their countries themselves build their own
solutions. Because how should the Americans
or Europeans or wherever the developer sit know about the
problems here, you know, and, and, and the, the possible
(30:09):
solutions to it. Another thing we've been to
Bitcoin icasi the first time in 2022 in South Africa, it just
started in late 2021. And it's a circular community
that was initiated by Herman. He has a surf school in Muscle
(30:31):
Bay and they already had a program for the last 10 years
running where they basically taught children or helped them.
They they gave them food, they showed them how to learn to surf
and kids, these are kids from a Township.
So they are basically not havinga lot of opportunities there.
(30:56):
And then he learned about Bitcoin and about Bitcoin beach,
the project there and he decidedhe wants to start the circle
economy or try to start it in inthe Township.
And so he started to pay his surf teachers in Bitcoin and,
and they then went home basically in their area in the
(31:18):
Township and started to onboard merchants there.
And today, three years in, they have a small Bitcoin center and
Education Center. I met Bongani recently.
Bongani is one of the children who three years ago was still
trying to learn to surf. And he also learned about
(31:41):
Bitcoin. And I have a video on, like, a
small interview with him on YouTube.
And it's really, really warming the hearts of everyone because
this guy is now 16. He's getting 17 soon.
And he set up the Bitcoin and Lightning notes in the Bitcoin
Ekasi Center that are being usedfor their collaborative custody,
(32:05):
as far as I know. And he's fully into it.
You know, he's like, I wanted toknow why did Satoshi build it
like that and how is it working and all of that.
And now I want to become a developer and earn a lot and
then buy, of course, a house in the car.
Yeah. So.
So there are many people who arereally uplifted by it over the
(32:29):
years, but it's hard because like in between, like from 2022
to 2025, we had a bear market, you know, for a couple of
months, the value only deteriorated.
So setting up such a circular economy is also a real tough
task. You have to be very committed
(32:50):
and it takes a lot of also financial means to build that.
And Speaking of that, last thingI want to mention from Zimbabwe,
no Zambia, sorry, in Victoria Falls, because Victoria Falls is
at the border to Zimbabwe. That's basically for me, it's
always Zimbabwe and Zambia. Victoria Falls.
(33:11):
Victoria Falls is a, a, like Niagara Falls, you know, a big
waterfall, a tourist attraction.A lot of people from abroad,
tourists are coming to Victoria Falls.
So Adam, a guy from from the US started Bitcoin Victoria Falls
there and he was asking us, hey,you are doing a lot of work in
(33:36):
Zambia. I'm looking for a teacher.
And so we were talking with him and helping him to find Humphrey
from Lusaka from our community who now moved to Victoria Falls
and doing is doing the whole teaching there.
So they are also trying to set up a small circular economy
(33:57):
there by onboarding the shops. So the hope of course is that
enough shops are accepting Bitcoin so that also Bitcoiners
can come in Civic Falls, visit Zambia and Zimbabwe and also
spend their money there. So, but as I said, things are
(34:18):
very small at the beginning, butI still believe that if people
get it, then they will start using Bitcoin over other
cryptocurrencies. Yeah.
Oh, thank you for that detailed insight into what's going on in
that part of the world. I guess, you know, I get this
feeling, Anita. I mean, Bitcoin is, you know,
(34:40):
are very interested in helping others via education, sharing
what they know, and it's kind ofbaked into the open source
ethos. But I do wonder sometimes the,
the, the larger sociological geopolitical situation we're in
where somewhere like Zimbabwe really is just in between so
(35:02):
many hegemonic forces that, you know, we we can try our best and
be very earnest. And I think a lot of Bitcoiners
have very good intentions and outlook for this kind of stuff.
But in the face of raw power from a corrupt government, for
example, which has the monopoly on violence, there's actually
not that much we can do except huddle.
And so we've run into these challenges where I sometimes
(35:24):
wonder, you know, certain parts of the world, are they just
going to stay in this stagnant way of being for for the
foreseeable future? And is it a case that even
somewhere like New Zealand, where we've kind of inherited a
good system, but it's starting to decay, You know, we're, we're
just lucky, you know, I wonder, is there a bigger piece here
(35:44):
that we're missing out on that, you know what I mean?
Yeah. I, I, I, I think I do, yeah.
I mean, the bigger piece, I don't know what it is.
But what I also see is, yes, it's said that in a way,
democratic values and things arelike the whole system is
deteriorating. But I believe the problem is the
(36:05):
money system that we have. That's the problem.
And capitalism in a way is a problem.
I don't know how how we can makeit so it works better, but the
the the the current system makesthe rich richer and the poor
poorer. And this will always be used by
people for a monopoly of power. Yeah.
(36:27):
I mean, just look into the US What are the billionaires doing?
What do they want? Yeah, I mean, they want to
change the system. I see that.
But I don't think they want to change it for the better good of
everyone. They want to change it, change
it for their better good. They are no different then a
managua. Maybe they don't kill people,
(36:47):
but you'd also don't know that, you know, in a way they do.
Yeah. Not by yeah.
Sorry. Sorry, come again?
Yeah, I was just going to say. So pulling on that thread and
again, this is a bigger question, but I do wonder, I
mean, you talk about 1980 in Zimbabwe and I reflect on the
New Zealand story at that time, which was of course the
(37:09):
neoliberal reforms. And so I think an outright
criticism of capitalism, you know, maybe some people's
eyebrows may raise at that, but certainly this late stage Fiat
project, I think and maybe, you know, really represented by the
neoliberal reforms that kind of benefited New Zealand I guess in
a sense. But there was a lot of pain at
(37:29):
that time, but certainly what happened with Zimbabwe and at
that time was, was quite negative.
And so I guess there's, there's feels like there's just a larger
geopolitical move and Bitcoin isan opt out of that entire thing.
But that's hard because people don't, most people aren't ready
to kind of opt out of, of the system that they're in.
That's that's a pretty big ask. And so the actual work is on
(37:52):
reforming the money at writ large, which I imagine in the
Zimbabwe, what's what's it like at the moment?
I mean, are you guys experiencing inflation at the
moment? What's that like on a
day-to-day? Basis that's that's a permanent
status. So you mentioned, you mentioned,
you mentioned the Zimbabwe dollar before, like in the times
of the hyperinflation, 2008, 2009, which no coincidence is
(38:16):
also the same time of the big financial crisis worldwide.
There was the Zimbabwe dollar inbetween.
There was no Zimbabwe dollar. It was the US dollar only then
they reinvented the Zimbabwe dollar in 2019.
And what they did back then was you had an U.S. dollar account
in a Zimbabwean bank and from one day to the other, they told
(38:39):
you this is now not AUS dollar anymore, this is Zimbabwe
dollar. But don't fret, the value will
stay the same and everyone you know, you basically just stole
all my money. I know people who that happened
to them not only once, but already twice in their lives.
And so the, the, and then the Zimbabwe dollar from 2019 to
(39:02):
2024 inflated from I don't know what was the last thing 1 to 800
or 900 or something. And then what they did, they
invented a new currency. Now it's called the Sikh, the
Zimbabwean gold. And they say it's backed by
gold, but everyone here knows it's definitely not backed by
(39:26):
gold. I mean, this country has enough
gold and natural resources. But there is also a documentary
called the Gold Mafia on YouTube, which is very
interesting. And it's basically shows how
directly the the people in the government and their friends are
profiteering by stealing basically gold and washing U.S.
(39:50):
dollars. And So what was the question?
Sorry. Well, we were.
No, no. No, no.
It's like a we were, we were just exploring though this, this
larger. You were asking me about
inflation. Yeah, exactly.
So it's yes. So the same is happening again.
So they invented that sick. And it's inflating already.
(40:13):
So last April, I think April, might, May, it was that they
forced the people to use the Zimbabwe gold.
And today they rate like, no, let's say 3 weeks ago when I was
asking in the shops what's the rate, they were telling me it's
1 to 31 and this week it was 1 to 41.
(40:35):
So the game is on all the time. This won't stop.
That's their method of stealing value from the people.
Yeah. No, I thank you.
I thank you for that answer. Because you were speaking about
the neoliberal agenda and, and the, let's say, the good
dictators. You know, the I'm, I'm President
(40:57):
Bukhale. I'm a happy dictator.
Ha, ha, ha. Yeah, what they're doing here is
the prime example of where thesecountries are going to be in a
couple of years if this doesn't change.
That's my opinion. This shows you a way of, I don't
(41:17):
know, I don't know, have, I don't have the right word for
it. It's a military violent LED
capitalism by the powerful, something like that.
And it's a system. And to break that system, you
really, as you said, you need some sort of violence.
(41:39):
And how I how I feel that many of these countries might end up
a little bit like Zimbabwe because, yeah, I think the
billionaires are not going to work in the interest of
everyone. Mostly in their interest.
Yeah. Well, it's, it's very
interesting. And again, this is this is a
much bigger topic, but I think there is something going on at a
(42:03):
structural level. And I think we can be nuanced
enough to unpick the rhetoric ofwhat would be communist
ideology, neoliberal ideology. I think we can look at all of
these quite clearly from the 3rdplace, which is Bitcoin.
And this is one of the things that Bitcoin's actually really
good for, just from a educational perspective, the
(42:24):
epistemology of money. It's like we can be in Bitcoin
and kind of be outside of that world and look in on it.
But one thing I did want to justpull on was you talked about
Tether, USDT being used quite a lot.
And I do wonder if there's something to that in terms of
the US dollarization, which had happened from 2019, right, or
(42:48):
until 2019 in Zimbabwe. So let's talk to me about the US
dollar and the part of the worldthat you're in.
Absolutely. It has to do with that and it's,
I mean the country is officiallya multi currency country.
So people are still using the USdollar.
I mean the US dollar, the country is basically dollarized.
(43:08):
No one wants to use the Zimbabwegold because everyone knows it
loses it's value and everyone wants to get access and hold
U.S. dollars. So it's AUS dollar economy and
that's why also people have learnt over the years that
despite the fact that the US dollar is also losing value over
(43:28):
time due to inflation, for them it's totally stable.
It's their security system. And in that sense, of course
there is also this. I know already what the US
dollar is. OK, now I have a digital U.S.
dollar. That's my savings instrument
now, or my at least the instrument where I, where I
(43:49):
don't lose value. So, so of course that's, that's
what people know here and that'swhy they use it.
And what they want from cryptocurrency is in fact
something that is stable, that they can use fast, cheap.
I also heard from someone who isa money trader, basically a
(44:11):
peer-to-peer trader. He told me he's like a couple of
years ago when I met him the first time he was telling me
he's a bitcoiner. Last week he told me he's, sorry
to say, but he is a tether guy now because there are
predictable fees on Tether and they he doesn't have that with,
(44:33):
with Bitcoin either on chain or lightning.
Because I showed him the Phoenix, the self custodial
Lightning wallet once and he opened the channel and it was at
the time when the fees were veryhigh.
And so he had to open a channel on on the chain, which meant
that from his $70 he put in 30 were used for fees.
(44:55):
He's never going to use that again.
And so people need predictable fees, they need predictable
value. That's sadly a fact.
And only those who who really understand the difference
between Tether or other stable coins or cryptocurrencies to
Bitcoin, the uniqueness of Bitcoin, they will try to start
(45:19):
acquiring Bitcoin in one or the other way.
I'm absolutely, absolutely convinced about that.
But the maturity of people needsa stable value and something
where they can calculate with. Yeah.
Well, just one kind of one otherconcept that I often return to
Anita, is, you know, New Zealand, a former Prime Minister
(45:42):
talked a lot about the two tier society during the COVID years.
And I do sometimes wonder whether something like that
really applies to what we're seeing with Bitcoin, where for
the vast majority of citizens ofthe world, maybe they're going
to use some sort of digital CBDC, digital dollar.
And then for the people who choose self sovereignty, Bitcoin
(46:02):
is the option that's available to them.
But I do question this idea thatmaybe we never see mass adoption
of Bitcoin, but it's not just simply for those who decide to
use it. And is this a reality that
you're sort of thinking about? Maybe Bitcoin is really for
those who choose it and not for everyone who doesn't want it
sort of thing. Maybe I don't know what the
(46:23):
future will bring, but at the moment we are also in a phase
like here, people really need tospend their money.
They can't just hold it like a lot of us in Western countries
can. You know, like the, the Bitcoin
scene itself is very dominated, at least what you can read on
social media and stuff is very dominated by the mindset of I'm
(46:45):
huddling unto death. You know, like I, I, I will
never spend my Bitcoin. I don't want to end up like the
pizza guy, ha ha ha. He spent 10,000 Bitcoin on 2
pizzas. Well, he actually was a great
guy because what he did not onlywas the first purchase in
Bitcoin, so it set the, the value of Bitcoin in a way back
(47:07):
then. And he also doesn't regret
anything because he was working in this space and he he moved on
to earn and spend Bitcoin. So I feel he's very well off
today. So yes, in a way, we don't know
how it turns out. But if it's just a store of
value and people can't afford self custody or some form of
(47:32):
self custody, maybe not full self custody, but at least part
in parts, in a way, it's that it's uncensorable, at least in
their own countries, you know, and, and when, how should I say?
I think people will also learn when in Europe and, and in the
US, when the system as we see it, it deteriorates, it decays,
(47:56):
it might fall apart. The current system then
definitely I think that people will learn and see that Bitcoin
is out of that, you know, it's an alternative to it.
It's your lifeboat in a way and and the the fact that a lot of
people don't have the same chances and don't have the same
(48:17):
opportunities to start using Bitcoin now in this still early
phase is sad. But it's a general problem that
we have because also technology,like people here only for a
couple of years, they now have smartphones, but Internet
connectivity, mobile data is so expensive that most of them
(48:39):
can't afford. So they are left out.
Again, you know, this is a scheme.
We we can't solve that problem with Bitcoin.
I don't know if there's any solution to it at all to be
honest. Yeah, Well, I, I guess what I'm
getting at, I think, I mean, obviously my lot is in with the
Bitcoiners and you know, I want to see this thing succeed and
(49:02):
emancipate people from the stateand these challenges that you've
described today. But I do wonder, I had a really
interesting conversation with the people from a project called
Bit Credit, which is trying to build circular economies and
enabling credit notes and some of these instruments of business
that are a little bit more fundamental than maybe consumer
(49:26):
payments. And I think this is a big thing
in the Bitcoin world is circulareconomies that are focused on
consumer payments for buying some stuff in a shop and having
a number of shops together. But actually when you look at
the supply chains of a country like Zimbabwe, what does it mean
for energy, fuel, raw materials and their supply chain to
actually be priced in Bitcoin? That's a very, that's quite a
(49:47):
step further along than where I think the infrastructure is AT.
And so we had a really good conversation and I think that
opened my mind up to actually, there is still some work to be
done to build this kind of financial infrastructure of this
whole new thing on Bitcoin at which we just don't have at the
moment. And at the same time, that's
actually really easy to do with the US dollar because everyone
(50:09):
wants, you know, everyone will take U.S. dollars.
I'll take U.S. dollars, you know, if they're available.
And I think that kind of promotes a future version of the
world that's actually dominated by the US dollar or its
competitor. And and still I see Bitcoin is
sitting outside of that. And so that's just kind of an
interesting dilemma. I don't have any answers for
you, but it's very interesting. Yeah, yeah.
(50:31):
I mean, it's definitely interesting and still it could
be that in like 10 or 20 years, we don't know how it's going,
but that the system and I mean that the the global that
countries start realising and also using Bitcoin as a neutral
form of transformation of value or transfer of value between all
(50:53):
the countries and all the people.
You know, maybe we fall back, maybe more and more people learn
about the advantages of something that cannot be changed
by any party. You know, it's only can be
changed in a consensus of everyone who's using it.
And I mean, the world is using the Internet, you know, that one
(51:14):
TCPIP blah blah blah protocol. So maybe they've, we fall all
back and realise, OK, actually, as Andrea Santanopoulos said,
Bitcoin is the Internet of money.
So just use it, you know, no one, neither the Americans nor
the Chinese, can influence it. I am curious though, I mean,
again, Zimbabwe, it's like the the poster child for
(51:36):
hyperinflation. But when you've had
conversations with people, real people in Zimbabwe, what, what
is their reaction when you talk about some of the properties
that we look at in terms of fixed supply, inflation
resistance? Do their eyes light up or do
they sort of not really get it even though they they should be
the ones who ought to understandit the most?
(51:56):
Like what's your lived experience being talking to
people about it? Now, if you tell them that they
most, most of them, their eyes light up and they say really,
but then there is a lot of doubt.
Can that really work? Because you know, you need to
learn so much of about Bitcoin to really understand that really
no one can influence it or try to, you know, and and with
(52:19):
others and uncensorability come from these are also alien
concepts to people that they might not really believe you.
They can't, they don't trust youthat it's really true and only
when you use it, when you show them, look here, I have Bitcoin
in that wallet, they belong to me.
(52:39):
There is this website. I can now via that website,
whichispetrifield.com, I can send airtime into the phone of
your friend in Malawi and we aresitting in South Africa.
And when you do that and the friend in Malawi says, hey, I
got airtime, I have it. They are just like blown away
and say, how is this working? And then that's the that's the
(53:03):
way to really drive interest, toshow them something that is
practical for them, that is solving a real problem they
have. And from there, but most of most
of them also don't want to learnmore about Bitcoin.
It's only always a few people who get it who who have their
own, I don't know, interests setup that way or their experiences
(53:27):
in life. You know, it's also important
what I have your experience has been so far that you can take in
what Bitcoin can offer you, you know, And so, yeah, I, I feel
for the mess adoption. We're still too early.
The the tools are still not working in a reliable way that
you have fixed fees that you know what you can expect, But we
(53:51):
are on the way. I mean, people are building on
Bitcoin like crazy. And I'm, I'm still very
optimistic about that. And the great thing about it is,
yes, it might be difficult for those who can't afford that now
or don't have the headspace or the education to use it, but at
least it's open for anyone and permissionless.
(54:14):
And that I feel is so important that we keep the keep up the
permissionlessness and the non KYC usage of Bitcoin because
otherwise we, I feel we don't really need Bitcoin.
You know, I mean, it's still great because you can still use
it. And I will, it will be there
forever as a, as an opt out. And I feel the, these are that's
(54:36):
what makes me so optimistic thatthere is an exit.
We have something now where we can put or hard earned money
and, and be a little bit optimistic and hopeful about the
future. At least no one can take it away
from us. Yeah.
No, thank you for that. And I think as I said, there's
(54:57):
there's kind of a higher level breakdown of what's going on
here where you do have the consumer payments as you just
described, but refill and helping people on their
day-to-day. But the real nuts and bolts of
an economy in terms of producingand exporting goods, that sort
of thing still somewhere to go. But I do think Lindy effect
(55:17):
comes into play. The longer this thing stands is
around, the longer it holds a floor price, at least in the
global market and especially compared to local currencies.
It's, it's maybe going to continue to grow and, and, and
people will learn about it hopefully.
But I, I guess what this all comes back to is what I
mentioned at the beginning was the role of education.
(55:39):
And it's a big focus of your work with Bitcoin for fairness
and your, your work educating people.
So I wanted to just maybe reflect on that Anita, your,
your outlook for this year, talking more about your
education work and kind of helping people understand what
Bitcoin could do for them. Yeah.
So basically a big part of my year has already happened, like
(56:04):
I've spent from December basically during to May now,
like end of no, sorry, end of April on the continent.
And we did a lot of work there. And going forward, I'm focusing
on Crack the Orange, which is a website, which is an online
(56:25):
learning platform for anyone whowants to learn more about
Bitcoin. It's for beginners and
definitely also people who are alittle bit advanced already.
But I feel there are a lot of we're just building a new
database, a Bitcoin knowledge library basically additionally
to the course program. And the next thing is also we
(56:48):
are having scholarships there sothat people aspiring educators
or developers that are new in the Bitcoin and lightning space,
but they want to contribute, they can also apply for a
scholarship. So people from the global South
or from areas where they are being disadvantaged and could
not afford a, a, an education like that.
(57:11):
Otherwise they can apply for a scholarship.
And we had like, I think now we are having 120 applications so
far and 43 people, if I remembercorrectly, have finished the
whole course. Now a lot of them are already
driving their own initiatives onthe ground because that's the
(57:34):
goal. We've cracked the orange to
spread information wide and far and for free so that people can
start their own educational initiatives.
And we are also having a monthlylive call where all these people
who are learning about Bitcoin can come together.
(57:54):
They are from different countries like South Africa,
Tanzania, Kenya, Zambia, and they can also interact with each
other and exchange ideas. What has been working in their
work on the ground and what hasn't and things like that.
And then my goal this year is also to write like update my
(58:18):
book, like put a new edition of my learn on Bitcoin book out
there with all the learnings I had had myself about the
technology in the last couple ofyears.
And also, you know, it's a fast moving technology.
So you need to, I need to revisit the, the wallets I'm
referring to and things like that because everything changes
(58:39):
so fast. And yeah, at the end of the
year, I might be going to Brazil, to Satskunf and maybe
we're thinking about spending some time in Mexico.
We have someone there who is very connected with underground,
with communities and then I, it's just too far in the future
(59:02):
to be honest. But yeah, I'll, I'll definitely
keep on doing what we have been doing and refining it and make
it even better. Oh yeah, that's awesome.
And if people want to follow along, crack the orange and
that's which. Is that as a part of Bitcoin?
For fairness, this is a separateentity.
How? It's no, it's it's basically all
(59:24):
a part of Bitcoin for fairness. So and we have two approaches
there. The one is the free education
for educators and the other one is basically you can also sign
up and pay for a course with me and and then ask me directly
questions. And that's correct the
orange.com. But if people want to follow me,
(59:48):
the best actually is to subscribe to the free
newsletter, which you can find at Anita dot link slash news.
And most of the times, I mean, I'm on on X still, but I'm
actually posting more on Nosta. I feel Nosta is also a great
technology. With similar characteristics
(01:00:12):
like Bitcoin and I just feel that this is the way to go also
in communication and publishing your thoughts and and everything
and I'm very excited about the developments there too.
Yeah, OK. That's awesome.
I really appreciate that, Anita,and thank you so much for
(01:00:33):
bearing with us as we deal with Internet and electricity issues
on this call. But it was great to talk to you
in person. Yeah.
Thank you very much. Yes, thank you very much for the
invitation. I enjoyed it very much.
Thank you, Cody.
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