Thinking Critically About The Bitcoin Movement With Kim De Vos

Kim de Vos writes and talks about Bitcoin. He formerly hosted Alles voor Bitcoin, the independent, ad-free voice of Belgian Bitcoiners. Kim joins me to explore the state of the Bitcoin movement from the inside.

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
It's not that I want to attack all these people, but if you
don't do that, you get external critique critics and they are in
the mainstream media and they will invent stuff and they they
will say like, Oh yeah, Bitcoin art is melting the North Pole or
whatever. So if you want to have good
critics critics, then they have to come from internally that you

(00:24):
at least know a bit where you'retalking about.
Kim DeVos writes and talks aboutBitcoin.
He formerly hosted Ours for Bitcoin, the independent ad free
voice of Belgian bitcoiners. Kim, welcome to the show.
Welcome. Thanks for having me, Cody.
Now I had come across some of your articles previously,
including Bitcoin. Books are a sham.

(00:46):
You probably don't need a hardware wallet.
Orange peeling has become a mental issue.
Bitcoin conferences. Drink your milkshake.
These titles may upset some people, but really what you are
writing about is pretty eloquent, describing the changes
in the Bitcoin world over the last few years and in particular
some of the grift and hype and tribalism that has emerged over

(01:08):
recent years. What has happened, Kim?
Oh, well, as many Bitcoiners, I've started a podcast.
So they either write a book or start a podcast, as you know,
but it's all to help the community.
So and along the way you go to conferences or you go to local

(01:31):
meet ups and you try to well, talk to the people and then help
Bitcoin forward, help the community forward.
And along the way, you see, and this is natural, of course, see
some, let's, let's say, disadvantages or things we
should overcome. And what happened is that I
realized that if you start to criticize that in private,

(01:54):
almost everyone agrees with you.But if you start to criticize
that openly, then you have, well, not a lot of problems, but
it's, it's like a bit of backlash.
And people are afraid sometimes certainly from companies within
the Bitcoin space to talk about it because they are afraid to
lose business or afraid to lose sales on a book or whatever.

(02:17):
So, and I understand that if I have, let's say, a company that
sells hardware wallets, I cannotsay anything, just that I think
because maybe it will hit my sales.
So I started these series of 12 articles.
I'm in Article 9 now. And there are a few more coming
to criticize that on purpose because usually the criticism

(02:40):
comes from people like Peter Schiff who are outside of the
Bitcoin world or or like coinerswho, well, don't always think so
fond of Bitcoin for other reasons because they want to
sell you their token or their stuff.
So that's what happens. And I started to write about
that because these are real problems that we need to either

(03:06):
overcome or realise that they are there.
Yeah, no, no, it really struck me.
I actually came across them via stacking news some someone was
sharing them there. It might might have been you and
I just there was a certain critique within those articles
that really struck me because, you know, I set out on this
journey to kind of actually understand what's going on come.
And in a sense, there is this pursuit of truth and, and really

(03:31):
trying to get to the root of things that I think comes
through in Bitcoin, you know, verify, don't trust, you know,
these kinds of things, these shibboleths that we've
developed. But as you say over the years,
maybe there's certain narrativesthat are difficult to criticize.
And also the idea that maybe Bitcoin isn't a monolithic group
of people. There's actually a lot of
internal, I wouldn't call it factions, but certainly internal

(03:54):
perspectives. And I I personally think the the
tension between those is healthy, but perhaps as Bitcoin
becomes more mainstream 1 narrative dominates potentially.
Yeah, this. I think there are two bigger
groups from the from the conferences in the local meetups

(04:16):
I've visited. That's just my conclusion.
There are some the grassroots movements, let's call it people
who are really there to say like, OK, run your own note self
custody and and try to pay each other in Bitcoin if possible
and, and driving that, that local economy.

(04:38):
And then there are like all the others.
So and not saying that those grassroots people are always the
good guys or the bad guys. There are no good and bad guys
in Bitcoin. It's just math and the hardest
money in the world. And that's the discrepancy.
Like, we have the hardest money in the world and then you see
people at the conference trying to hawk you to get their middle

(05:03):
man stuff in to get $3 referral link stuff or whatever.
And I think this is not the ethos, dudes.
But that disturbs me a bit because some people lost the
plot along the way and are like serving, let's say, biggest
middle man. And for example, in the books

(05:25):
and in the job section in withinBitcoin, I see a lot of fake and
mind you, this gets drawn in together with people who are
genuinely writing good books andgenuinely offer really cool
Bitcoin jobs. But the the the amount of of
noise in the space is enormous. And that's maybe why these

(05:48):
factions have these fights or inner visions that differ so
much because some people are looking at the core of Bitcoin
and have that as their life goalalmost or religion or whatever
you want to call it. And on the other hand, are there
people like, if I get paid this week, it's OK for me?
So and, and not saying it's goodor bad, it's just what it is.

(06:12):
And if you, if you stand at the conference, that one anecdote
that I tell like and and someonecomes to me and said, oh, what
do you sell? It's like something's wrong
then. Yeah, well, I reflect on this
myself. Can, you know, Bitcoin has been
very good to me and you know, I'm relatively new to it, I must
admit. And it's only been a few years,

(06:33):
but I've met a lot of people along the way.
But really for me, it's been this entrance into learning more
about philosophy, economics, political economy, these kinds
of topics, which I'd always had an interest in.
And in a sense it has changed mylife.
But at the same time, as you say, if you're not careful, this
thing can take over your life. And I think there's a bigger

(06:55):
question here around maybe man'ssearch for meaning and belonging
and, and these kinds of things. But it seems as if there is a, a
lack of, Oh yeah, if, if you're,if you're critical of some of
the, the core narratives, it gets right to the core of
people. And it can be quite disruptive.
But really, we need to be able to ask these questions in a

(07:17):
Socratic way. And so you mentioned some
Bitcoin literature in the book. The Bitcoin books are a sham.
And, you know, really, you say here Bitcoin literature needs to
evolve. The market is flooded with
inbred ideas. And I thought this was a really
interesting take because, yeah, it seems like every day there's
a new Bitcoin book coming out kind of saying the same thing.
And where is the actual innovation in that thinking?

(07:39):
Because I don't know, man. It's it seems like everyone's
trying to rank read from the same song sheet.
But actually, you know, there are some bigger questions,
right? There are bigger questions
indeed, and also especially, especially about Bitcoin
podcasts even and Bitcoin books.But how many times can you tell
that Bitcoin is hard money and that Fiat is, let's say, bad or

(08:03):
has a lot of disadvantages? We've seen that in the Bitcoin
standard. We've seen that in broken money.
We've seen that in a lot of other books.
That's cool and really cool books and and so on.
And then you see time and time again people telling the same
story or trying to push their product.

(08:25):
And then I think, OK, for example, I, I had a, a small
idea for something, a niche subject within Bitcoin.
It went about time management and so on, which is something
that I really like. And I, I pivoted this to one of
the Bitcoin book people. And it's, yeah, it was OK.

(08:47):
And but then you get into the insights of how that industry
works. And it was, let's say,
disappointing and not to say that these guys are are doing
bad work, but because they're not much of them, but it's, it's
so let's say all amateuristic and low level.
If you, if you compare it to other industries like the

(09:10):
telecom industry, it's really inits infancy.
And we don't need to shoot it ofcourse, because it's we're all
bitcoiners. We wanted to thrive, but we
really need to see that we need to grow and get a little bit
more organized and professional.And that's why I write these
things. The Bitcoin jobs, for example,

(09:32):
is absolutely horror. If I talk to people, if I can go
on a rant about that, but I talkto people that that are really
working in coding, for example, and developers that are really
working with these companies, they either don't get paid, they
either get other drama, which istotally not necessary and no

(09:54):
stability at all. And it, it cannot be that
difficult to get a company that makes a nice product and have
people have an income and do something with that.
Certainly when some people sit on $40 billion of Bitcoin, it
it, I don't get that. Why?

(10:15):
Why are they grifting and why are they scraping together every
$100 to get the developers to dosomething?
It's it's mind boggling actually.
Well, you wrote something which made me chuckle, which was that
a bigger outside Brussels Central train station with a
McDonald's cup makes more money than a lot of Bitcoin

(10:35):
contributors. And that really struck me as
this idea that, yeah, there's a lot of free and open source
ethos within Bitcoin. But at the same time, and I
would like to get your opinion on this, but I feel as if
there's not really any surface area in a sense when you take
Bitcoin to its core, there is nomiddle man in that system.

(10:57):
And so to try and scaffold a business or a or a service in
between, except potentially for Fiat integration, pure Bitcoin
plays necessarily tend towards 0.
And so it's a very precarious place to be.
So the idea there's no surface area for businesses, what are
your thoughts on that? First of all, if if there are

(11:18):
venture capitalists investing inBitcoin making for example an
app that combines a few functions and acts as an on and
off ramp and they can pay like 12 people working there,
developers and so on, marketeers, then that money

(11:39):
comes from the venture capitalists from the Fiat world.
So you either get that form of inflow of money and they hope to
make their money back because you know the price of Bitcoin
goes up over time and they can make their money that way and
they can establish themselves inthe market.
But almost all other forms, I don't see it happen in the way

(12:02):
it is now because people don't see the value for value
proposition as it should. So that is totally broken.
If they don't like something, they will not contribute.
I see that for myself. If if you say something or you
block something that they don't like, they will not contribute.
They don't see that that contribution.

(12:24):
If you, if you don't like the opinion is meaningful and has
value. And I'm at fault there as well.
I will not contribute to someone's opinion that I really
hate saying Oh this was really helpful for the community, but I
hate his guts. So I will donate some sets.
It's a bit anti our nature, but it's the reality.

(12:46):
So you write something that's maybe or you do something that's
maybe helpful, but you don't getan income.
So what does bring you income iswell, let's say licking the
heels of the big ones and say oh, let's say hardware wallet
XYZ, which I know is not good. It's really good.
You have to buy it. Here's my referral link.

(13:06):
So then you'll become a drifter and a problem, in my opinion.
But you don't have much choice because if you don't do that, I
decide with my own podcast. If you don't do that and you
have no sponsors, no ads, no income, yeah, then you do it for
free as a hobby for the community, and that's ends at

(13:28):
some point because you get otherinterests and so on.
So I don't see a solution for that to answer your question,
because the the businesses themselves need to think about
how can we get, let's say working funds in, well, maybe
yield. And that's of course a dangerous
word to say in Bitcoin, because if you speak yield, you are

(13:49):
immediately shifted towards something else.
Yeah, well, that's interesting. I mean, there's there's a lot
there. So couple of things.
So #1 I think there's something about the free and open source
and that kind of base level, thetechnology of of it that
something about that has managedto maintain those ethoses that

(14:10):
started off in the beginning, you know, putting this out to
the world. And I think that's very
important. But what we're starting to say
is, as you've described, this connection between big business
and, and, and the free and open source world.
And I think the the moment wherethis came came out for most
people, I was, it was block sizewars and this kind of collective
trauma that even though that wasbefore my time, everyone sort of

(14:32):
talks about it as this kind of moment when, well, like we can't
let big business ever really geta say in Bitcoin.
And perhaps that I'd like to hear what you think, but maybe
there's a legacy there of that kind of anti bank, anti big
business involvement. But at the same time, the
reality is for for it to work asmoney, people need to be able to
use it. And people who don't necessarily

(14:53):
believe in it need to be able touse it.
And well, that what I've just said might also be a narrative
that we need to critique, you know, is, is it actually only
going to be for people who want to be outside of the system as
opposed to people, you know, everyday people, for example,
like, I mean, there's this wholeidea of hyper bitcoinisation,
right? And I sometimes wonder, you
know, what does that actually mean?

(15:14):
Is that, is that what actually happens?
Or is it that people like you and I use it to be outside of
their existing power structures,but most people don't.
And so there's, sorry, there's afew topics there, but I wanted
to throw that at you and get your thoughts please.
First of all, I think there's a split there that is organized or

(15:37):
almost caused by the big playershere.
If they systematically don't or almost don't support the free
and open source world, let's sayit's to generalize it for a bit,
then they choose to be the middleman and choose to be that
power horse. And then we end up with the

(15:59):
Bitcoin standard soft way where you have Fiat on top of Bitcoin
as underpinning layer instead ofgold back in the 70s and before.
That's where we're headed to right now as far as I can see
it. And that comes because of they
don't support the real community.

(16:19):
If someone makes, let's say an app for blind people to look
something up or have a wallet orwhatever, it's a useful app.
But if you're developing that, you will probably be on your
own. Maybe you get a grant from
someone who will throw you in some $500 or whatever, but

(16:39):
that's it. So you and you know that you do
it open source and you get applauded like, oh, you're
really good guy. You make something useful and
those big businesses don't care about that.
They see like, OK, how many hedge funds can we get into our
stock? So, and that's that's already
happened. So that split already happened.

(17:01):
And if you're stuck in that, let's say grassroots open source
movement, you also get to deal with grifters and the lots, but
also with really good people whoalso fund things on their own.
But in general, you've lost against the big money that's
taking over actually. So if you ask me, I don't see

(17:22):
that turning back anytime soon unless some second and third
Michael Saylor level people stepin that have another ethos.
Yeah, you've or you've got some criticisms of Saylor as well
which are interesting. But just coming back to that.
So I guess what I'm getting at Kim, is there is maybe this
ideology of the moment where there is hyper bitcoinization is

(17:47):
is talked about and it's kind ofprophesized.
But I do come back to this idea that maybe it doesn't happen
that way. And and I'll give you an
example. So I'm I my my sort of social
circle is at the middle of a lotof different very interesting
people. And just last week I met with an
Italian central banker here in Tokyo and we had a conversation

(18:10):
and, and I, I engage with these kinds of people from time to
time and I like to find out whatthey think about Bitcoin And
whenever I in kind of into that world of those kinds of people.
And I realized, man, the power structures and the, the absolute
network effect of the Fiat system is just so huge, so
powerful that really, you know, we've got our work cut out for

(18:34):
us. And the way Bitcoin fits into
that as a, as money, as an economy is really interesting
because when you look at what aneconomy is, it is actually the
productive economy is capital, its factories, it's being able
to make stuff. When you go to a Bitcoin
conference, what is for sale as mining machines, maybe some

(18:55):
hardware wallets, maybe some T-shirts.
But there's still to this day, there's no supply chain that's
priced in Bitcoin. There's no raw materials that
are priced in Bitcoin and there's no mandate for Bitcoin
to pay taxes and Bitcoin to kindof create that flywheel.
In this case. There's something totally
outside of that system. So sorry, there's a lot of
information there, but the kind of the way that all fits

(19:18):
together, because again, I don't, I don't know if you, if
you get anything in the real economy just by pricing dollars
in Bitcoin, for example, not by pricing Bitcoin in dollars,
Yeah. That will be the fake hyper
bitcoinisation and I don't thinkthat will work in the long run

(19:40):
anyway because everything is trust of course, even if it's
Bitcoin dollar or whatever, and I mean Europe.
So our trust in the euro, for example, is not like increasing
at the moment. I speak for myself in my
entourage, of course, maybe in general there are people really
keen on the, the euro, but no, in general, you're right.

(20:02):
The, the, the bigger companies, the banking system, I don't
understand that they don't get involved that much in Bitcoin.
They do, but on an internationallevel, but not that much.
And I don't understand that because they are under attack as
well of all these nation States and.

(20:22):
All the all these unions pushingtheir narrative and their
central banking view and even CBD CS.
If I was a big banker, I would be worried about that and I
would be involved in Bitcoin, ofcourse.
But maybe they don't see hard money or they do it in private
because the people you talk to in private, it's always a

(20:45):
different story. So if, if the hyper
bitcoinization ever happens, then it will be that all these
people have such a big percentage of the population in
private that it begins to have anetwork effect.
But I, I don't see it happen from the business side at the
moment, as you say on a conference, you know, at
conference you see indeed those things being sold.

(21:09):
It's what I call on the lower level.
No one says like, OK, we have a supply chain in Bitcoin or we
have like 10 suppliers and manufacturers that are accepting
Bitcoin for whatever goods, evenif it's eggs or woods or
whatever. Well, so getting to this, and
again, both of us, I think critiquing the situation, I

(21:31):
mean, by by all accounts, you know, we want to see this thing
when, but we need to also be quite honest with ourselves.
And this, this issue of the supply chain comes back to some
core fundamentals around the wayeconomies emerge.
Questions of the state, you know, because there is an
argument that the modern economyis only possible because of the

(21:52):
state. And that's a pretty
controversial thing to say. But you know, I think that's
something that's worth exploring.
It's like, well, you know, what does that actually mean?
You know, where did this come from?
The ability to secure highways and, and, and, and transport
routes and things, you know, arguably is that how capital
manifested itself and these kinds of questions.
And there's no military or stateforce behind Bitcoin.

(22:14):
It's only cryptography. So it's a very different beast.
And I tend to believe that goes a lot, a lot deeper and that
actually changes the role of thestate in our lives.
But in the sort of short to medium term, it's kind of like
bolting it on, attaching it to the existing state based Fiat
system. It's sort of like a it doesn't

(22:34):
compute. And it's like, yeah, the faster
the faster horse kind of idea. And so I'm just sort of, I mean,
I get philosophical and I wonder, well, you know, maybe we
go through some great, great recess, some great crisis and
there's this kind of emergence of Bitcoin over the medium to
longer term. But in the short term, if it is,
yeah, priced in U.S. dollars andit's used as an ETF and it's

(22:56):
held and, and not used as currency, you know what, what
does that mean? Does that lead to capture?
What does capture even mean? What is the actual threat
presented? Etcetera.
Sorry, yeah, I think you, you have like Fiat cycles like in
when, when they, I think we're in that last part of such a
cycle and then we can have a chance of hyper bitcoinisation

(23:19):
or whatever you want to call it,like more adoption for real
persons. But then you have two problems.
But I'm going to to explain thatfirst.
If you see historically, I, I did a few presentations because
my, my background is more on history.
Like they invent new Fiat, then they want to always instigate

(23:40):
trust in that Fiat. Like saying in old ages like,
oh, the, the emperor or the kingvouchers for this sort of new
coin and then everybody trusts it because it's like, oh, the
king says it's OK, so we do it. So it would be the same if all
of Europe would say like, oh, weswitched from euro to euro too,
and it's all new bills and this is now by force the new currency

(24:03):
and everybody would trust it because, yeah, it's Europe that
says it, that, that it's worth something.
So it's all trust. And then they start to print,
then they start, yeah, what we all know from the many books,
the, the Fiat game. And then you end up with social
unrest and, and captivating and,and capturing the the economic

(24:23):
value and the time of the people.
You get unrest. And then the solution is usually
some disturbance, maybe a war, maybe a takeover, maybe a
revolution, whatever form. And then they invent new Fiat
because instigating trust is going away with the old way and
say, oh, the Euro 2 was a disaster.
Now we have the Euro 3 and a newemperor will will give it out

(24:48):
and and print it and you will have trust again.
So that seemed very short how these need be cycles work called
a new Fiat instigating trust depth and so on.
So you have the problem that youneed to onboard those people
into that new trust. If you want Bitcoin to take part
of that, you can stop that cycleand you can say stop the Fiat

(25:10):
cycle because they will reinventFiat every 20 to 80 years.
Anyway. They doing been doing that for
like a millennia or two and we can stop it because we have
finally the hardest money. And then the discrepancy comes
and that's why I feel so bad. Then you come at a local meet up
or a conference and someone is saying like, oh, I put a Bitcoin

(25:32):
sticker on a Lantern post outside and it's all good.
Yeah, but that's not the way to do it.
I think. So it, it's like the discrepancy
between the, the challenges philosophically and the work
that needs to be done to get there, the enormous amount of
work, like people taking risk, people taking matter in own

(25:54):
hands and getting to work with, with Bitcoin companies putting
their own Fiat on the line and so on to, to start all that.
And then you see like the, the absolute stupidity sometimes at
local level where you see peoplelike saying like, you know, I, I
put a sticker somewhere and it'sgood.
I did something for Bitcoin. It's like, yeah, that's nice and

(26:15):
all, but we're not there. So I understand, so pulling on
that thread. So the side are a Fiat cycles.
So I'm very interested in this because I'm also a study
history. And you know, if you look at the
history of money, I think it might be a personality thing.
It might be just a percentage ofthe population.
But there's people who are asking questions, and I've

(26:36):
always asked questions and even people like the founding fathers
in the US knew the issues with money and they, they were very
clear about it, people like Thomas Jefferson.
But then there's all of the actual people and the population
who, for better or for worse, goalong with what is happening.
And I think this comes back to trust.

(26:56):
And this is where I begin to wonder whether Bitcoin exists
outside of the Fiat cycles, which will continue to happen.
And we're seeing one happen right now, which is the move
from Fiat to CBDC. Fiat may be led by the US dollar
and things like Tether like that.
That's happening right now and it's already underway.

(27:16):
And so you kind of have your choice.
You, you, you either use the stable coins or the CBDC or you
use Bitcoin and most people are going to use the CBDC that
that's clear. You know, you can't help these
people. You can't tell them why they're.
Wrong. They go for the easiest way.
They go for the easiest way and it's they trust what the state
says. And that really stood out for me
during the years of COVID. You know, there's certain people

(27:38):
who just defer to authority. It's as genetic, I think you
know, you can't. That's just a percentage of the
population. So did he interrupt us?
Sorry. During those times, those kind
of people, if you would have said like, oh, you have to wear
a Mickey Mouse hat to be in order, then they would all walk
around like that on the street. So you cannot help those people.
They're done. Yeah.
You cannot. And I mean, people just need to

(28:00):
look into the Stanford prison experiment or the history of
psychology, you know, people, mass formation people will
always, well, the vast majority of people will follow the, the
authority figure. And so certain people like us,
us Bitcoiners who who ask questions and push back.
But that makes me think that, OK, if we're going to do that,
we're always going to be outsideof that framework.

(28:21):
And that makes it really challenging because supply
chains and economies of scale, businesses, international
businesses, all of these things,they require, you know, the
growth mindset, they require addressable markets, these kinds
of things. And so I just, I mean, I don't
have answers here, but I'm just trying to find out, you know
what, what does this look? Like.

(28:42):
It's, it's, I mean, sorry, it's an open-ended question, but.
I can answer with because I don't have the answer to that
because that's in the future somewhere we will see what
happens. But there are some answers in
the past during I'm, I'm making a presentation for a later meet
up, maybe this year about the, the English Civil War back in

(29:08):
the day. And at a certain moment, the
king rallies with the, with the sort of banners.
I think it's the dragon banner or whatever it's called to tell.
I mean, I'm in trouble. Parliament is assembling an army
to attack me as a king and assemble people and help me.
So he asks for help and raises aflag to signal that he needs

(29:29):
help from the, the citizens and no one is turning up.
So maybe that's the effect that we will see sooner or later that
the people in power, like another example, like Ceausescu
giving a speech in Romania and thinking that everybody loves
him still and all the paid people down there are
applauding. In a few hours he's dead.

(29:50):
A few hours later he's dead because he still things like I'm
really liked and the people thatdon't like me disappear.
Anyway, at some level, maybe that's that's underground
movement isn't so underground anymore.
I don't think I will see that today, but I have the hope
because Bitcoin will not go away.

(30:12):
So that's the core issue for me,at least for Bitcoin, is it?
It keeps standing anyway. The mats will be there.
There will always be people, even if it's a few that will run
notes and there aren't enough ofthose.
But OK, it grows and that's soon, sooner or later.

(30:33):
And it can take one generation, 2 generations, whatever it takes
in history. We, we see that build up over
time. Sometimes we're only in this for
16 years. And let's say I count maybe 10
years for a serious market in Bitcoin before the very early
years. It's it's like, come on, that

(30:54):
was not that serious. Any still it, it was there, but
it was no market. So you have like 10 years of
real history of Bitcoin in a market, in an economy and it's
growing, but we're still very early and that's not like a
mantra. It's still.
So if, if we see to hyper bitcoinisation or that revolt

(31:15):
happening on its own, it's because people will lose trust
in the Fiat system altogether. Like working 40 years for some
Fiat company and seeing 20 yearsof that being wiped out through
inflation. People see that, but they don't
name it like that. They point to other things like,

(31:35):
oh, it's, it's the fault of our president or it's, it's those
guys or those guys. They also have anyone to blame.
The media points them towards someone to blame for that.
But sooner or later, maybe people will switch to Bitcoin.
And at that level, we're, we're not there yet, of course, but at

(31:56):
that level, some king or some union will flag like help us
because we're on the attack and no one will be there.
Well, something that I've reflected on the idea of the
second realm, which is kind of alibertarian concept of, you
know, a non state space where you can undertake trade with

(32:19):
your friends and and and and andassociates outside of the view
of the state. And I've got this idea, you
know, people struggle to see thestate.
They struggle to understand it because I can't see it.
You know, they can talk about government, but like, what is
the state? You know, this is a very
philosophical question, but I actually posit that it also goes
the other way and that the statestruggles to see things that are

(32:41):
outside of the state. And so I think this ends in part
explains why it's so challengingwhat, you know, that they don't
really get it. You know that I literally talked
to these these central banker guys last week and and there's
oh, you know, bitcoins too volatile, full stop.
You know, it was an often recordchat, but you know, they don't
really understand. And I think that says to me that

(33:02):
something like the second realm and in particular the Internet,
the money, you know, the Bitcoinis native to the Internet.
It's sort of fits into a new place for a virtual economy.
And I think this is really interesting because the state
still has monopoly over, you know, at the end of the day, the
police can come and get you. They can confiscate your
factory, right? And we're talking about supply

(33:23):
chains earlier, but arguably there are some digital supply
chains that work, you know, you can pay a freelancer or a
software developer in Bitcoin. And so I wonder just at a higher
level whether we start to see, you know, maybe the real world
is priced in Bitcoin and dollarsand the the digital world
increasingly valuable is priced in Bitcoin.

(33:44):
Maybe there's sort of a a divergent in these two worlds.
Potentially, yeah, but the the state's control, first of all,
you have the central banks that only look at the system.
So they, from the people I talk to, they are clear on that.

(34:06):
Like their focus is the stability of their own system,
talking about the States and thecentral banks.
So indeed, they don't understandBitcoin.
They say it's too volatile. It's only used for criminals and
all that stuff. And every transaction costs one
swimming pool of water or whatever they come up with.
It's it's sometimes funny, but OK.

(34:29):
But on the other hand, the parallel system is very, very,
very small for me here in Europe, it's, it's dismal.
It's like for example, the, the city I live in is Antwerp.
Not a small city, but not the biggest one either.
It's just like a city of like half a million people or

(34:51):
something. We have like 2 places where you
can pay with Bitcoin, one who does it officially and one where
you have to know. So it's, come on, the the
parallel economy is not existingyet.
And then you scrape together some people like, OK, let's
onboard some businesses or at least talk to them and and so

(35:12):
on. The parallel economy isn't
thriving here at all. It's you.
You don't get the people to do that work.
What they do is complain about the news and and sit together
and talk about Bitcoin. And I'm a bit tired of that
because the parallel economy needs to build up faster and you
don't see that happen. And so it's it's not big enough

(35:37):
yet. I think it can happen.
And the libertarian idea of having no nations, I believe in
that. I don't think nations need to
exist in the form they are now. But that's a whole other idea.
It it has nothing to do with Bitcoin on itself actually.

(35:57):
Well, I think it's important that we talk about this stuff,
Kim, because I mean, you're positing these, you know, these,
these provocations that, you know, maybe, you know, we need
to look closely at, at, you know, the Bitcoin conferences
and the, and the books. And then what we're talking
about, you know, what, what I guess what I'm, I'm trying to,
to say is if there is a way forward or, or, or thought or,

(36:19):
you know, research, experimentation to happen to, to
really undertake this. As I said, you know, I wonder
whether this never works really for physical supply chains.
You know, maybe that's always going to be subject to the
state. But for digital supply chains
and for me, and I guess for you,you know, we're able to do this
conversation over the Internet. We could have, you know, I could

(36:41):
send you Bitcoin, you can send me Bitcoin.
You know, we're, we, the digitalservice economy, the information
economy, you know, surely that can be paid for that, you know,
the, the cyberspace, you know, has no nation state behind it,
right? And so I think that that's kind
of coming back to the original ideas of Bitcoin, right, is
Internet money. And yet that, that also, I think
can be used in the real world because we've got this really

(37:04):
important piece, which is the connection between energy and
Bitcoin, which I was just reflecting on today.
And I thought, you know, with enough energy, you can kind of
do anything. You can 3D print a cow or
whatever, you know, like you just, you know, you can
synthesize all sorts of things if you've got enough power,
right? And it's cheap enough.
And so there's something there where Bitcoin connects back into

(37:24):
the real world. And so I don't know, I just
maybe we dollarize in real life and with Bitcoin eyes in our
virtual lives and eventually we also dollar Bitcoin eyes in the
real world, you know, at some point in the future.
But I don't know, man, I'm just throwing it out here.
You know, maybe you never see the supply chains go Bitcoin
only, you know. Maybe if their prices keep

(37:47):
collapsing because on the other side of that, I know a few
people that work in real supply chains for real factories.
They have other problems becausewe think like, oh, Bitcoin is
not driving like it should and it should all be dominated be
predominated in in Bitcoin. But on the other hand, they have
problems to to sell their stuff at the right price to keep their

(38:08):
business going to keep those supply chains running in a Fiat
world. I don't think they are that keen
on let's say the Fiat world and it's current workings at the
moment, certainly not at the moment on the short term because
with all the tariffs and all thestuff, but even separate from
that sort of shenanigans, the ifyou have a worldwide operation

(38:31):
to say let's say cheap cookies worldwide, then you have an
enormous problem to get that done.
You have to have the basic resources, the grains and
everything you need, the sugar, but also where do you put the
packages together, where do you ship it to, where is your
customer. So it's an enormous achievement

(38:52):
to get that done. And then you have to set the
price. So that's that's why also I find
the the the Big Mac Index so fascinating as a as a measuring
stick because, yeah, they operate worldwide.
The Big Mac is almost everywhereexactly the same.
And yeah, you can measure some things.

(39:13):
So I think maybe we need something like Watt dollars or
whatever it's called to really measure energy resources, people
that work with something and andmanufacture something and not
per SE Bitcoin directly underlying maybe, but that's a

(39:35):
dangerous proposition to make because it's very close to just
use Fiat. Fiat is like a state saying this
is your what dollar. That's not what I say.
The what dollar is an end resultof a whole series of
calculations where you almost take everything that's happening
in the world. And maybe someday we can do that

(39:56):
with the advanced computers likesaying, OK, this is the
worldwide Fiat replacement in measuring.
Yeah, getting about sci-fi, but you know, I'll just be
reflecting. So I'm from New Zealand
originally, but I love Japan andin New Zealand we don't have
Amazon and in Japan we have Amazon and it's always magical

(40:19):
to me to just click order and something arrives the next day
because it's not like that in New Zealand.
We, you know, you've got to go to the shop, right?
And I'm beginning to wonder, youknow, just as a higher level
concept, you know, is it possible that, you know,
manufacturing as a concept is kind of finished, right?
It's kind of, you know, we've got to the final state and, you

(40:40):
know, to start a manufacturing operation, you need to just have
cheap, you know, scale scales ofeconomy and capital already in
place. Like to kind of to disrupt that
industry now, you know, maybe very challenging.
And so assuming that's kind of finished in a sense, which I
don't think it has, but you know, just as a hypothetical,
again, it comes back to my argument that maybe the value to

(41:01):
be to be built forward is as in the virtual space now.
And this, you know, maybe comes into AI and some of these new
things that are happening, you know, is that the new frontier
for, you know, business and, andit is that the new edge.
And in that case, again, you know, the, the, the, the, the
use of Bitcoin is already possible and it is being used
quite a lot. Energy comes into that as well.

(41:22):
You've got data centers and, andall sorts of things.
And so I, I guess you talk aboutthe cookie and how it comes
together, but I don't know, maybe, maybe that's sort of the,
those real world scenarios are still priced in U.S. dollars,
which I, I again, coming back tothis, this thing I was at last
week, it was on the decline of the dollar.
And this, this, these legacy economists were basically

(41:44):
debating what the tariffs mean as kind of a weapon or economic
trade warfare that is leading tohigher prices for, you know, in
Japan, where I live, you know, in, if there's tariffs, that's,
that's, that's hard for the entire supply chain for a car,
for example, because the energy also is quite expensive here.
So there's kind of like, I don'tknow, man, I'm just throwing

(42:05):
ideas, but it just seems like maybe we end up with one winner,
which maybe it's the US dollar. Maybe manufacturing as a concept
is kind of in its final state. But the new battle is in the
virtual world, in the second realm where Bitcoin is native
and able to be used by anyone. And and maybe it just unfolds in

(42:26):
ways that we can't imagine. Yeah, on, on manufacturing, what
you say, I think it's not done yet, but it's getting there
because most manufacturing in it's core.
So I, I talk about the, the coreresources to the first product
is already in hands of like 200 people or something worldwide.

(42:47):
So what do you have then? It's in fact a de facto plant
economy and it's it's has this sauce over it like it's a free
market. But in the end they know like,
OK, you have to have copper, then you have to go to those
three guys and they all know each other and they set the
prices and so on. Or you have to have anything

(43:10):
manufactured. Maybe we move to maybe sci-fi
lands where we steer that globally.
And yeah, I, I don't know. But the political impact of that
will be enormous because the traditional politics that is
happening right now will be doneas well.

(43:32):
If you just say like, OK, manufacturing is actually done
worldwide, we do it that way andwe distribute everything in a,
in a more organized way. Everything is now digital
actually, maybe there is some worldwide AI that can administer
that. And then that cookie factory

(43:52):
will be gone, or at least the brand will still exist and you
will get a cookie. But it's not like 1 capitalist
doing that anymore. What what?
What are you just saying againstcapitalism by the way?
But just. Like, no.
And the fact that no, and the fact that you have to preface
that statement by saying nothingagainst capitalism, it's like a
bit of a tribalistic thing because, you know, I think we

(44:13):
should criticize it and especially the relationship with
capital and Fiat money. About criticizing, sorry to
interrupt about criticizing. Now I've come to to realize
this. The the Bitcoin space has this
problem. Like if you criticize something,
you're the bad guy or you're trying to attack someone.
And that's also tribalism. Like I deliberately play the bad

(44:37):
guy by posting these articles. The last one against arts, for
example, Orange is the New Orange, where I criticize the
way we see to like Bitcoin art. And it's not that I want to
attack all these people, but if you don't do that, you get
external critic critics and theyare in the mainstream media and

(45:00):
they will invent stuff and they they will say like, Oh yeah,
Bitcoin art is melting the NorthPole or whatever.
So if you want to have good critic critics, then they have
to come from internally that youat least know a bit where you're
talking about. Yeah, and, and This is why I
mean, as I said, I literally, I went to these events and I'm,

(45:21):
I'm, I'm talking to these peopleand I'm, I'm sitting there with,
yeah, like the former deputy foreign minister of Japan behind
me in this conference. And I'm wearing my orange pants
to the event, you know, and I'm sort of putting my hand up and
asking about Bitcoin. But at the end of the day, no
one is in that space who's really into Bitcoin.
And I mean, globally, there's a there's this movement to kind of

(45:44):
talk to governments about it andkind of communicate or
evangelize. But actually like, no, I'm not
here to evangelize. I just want to hang out with
these guys and see what they have to say and the way they
think. I want to get into their heads.
What are they doing? What are they, you know, how do
they see themselves in relation to the world?
And certainly it feels like theythink that they're in control of
the world as far as I can see, but that it strikes me that what

(46:08):
you said this like, you know, a small number of people in
control of the core elements, right, of manufacturing, You
know, is this say, for example, that this would be a really
interesting Bitcoin book, but like this 200 year cycle of the
industrial revolution again, is that kind of finished?
Like have we have the people gotwhat they're going to get and
countries that missed out, say Western Africa, they're never

(46:30):
going to get what they what theyneed to become, you know,
developed countries because. They're robbed, yeah.
That robbed and that that phase is finished, you know, and this
is quite important. You know, I was at another event
yesterday talked about Ghana andkind of its attempts to kind of
develop its economy. And it's one of the more
developed economies of Western Africa, but still, you know,

(46:52):
poor. And I compare that with New
Zealand and I think, well, New Zealand made it and it was able
to get these infrastructures in place and become a successful
country. But Ghana didn't really make it.
And is it ever going to make it,You know, this idea that it's
somehow going to bootstrap itself, as I know, maybe it's
too late. Like the race is over and the

(47:12):
the the winners have got their peace.
And so I'm starting to think more hypothetically, we're where
to from here, which is kind of new territory.
And that's what I'm really excited about, kind of the
sci-fi of it, which I think early cypherpunks, we're in this
space, I think we know where could it be?
But instead we get Marcus Saylorand ETFs and and banks and

(47:33):
stuff. And it's like, oh, it's like not
quite hitting where we wanted itto go, right?
No, I'm I'm really a fan of the cipher writer Peter F Hamilton.
I don't know if you know him andhe he jumps forwards every time
a few 100 or 1000 years. And it's really fascinating to

(47:53):
see how that economy works that he invented.
And I think there's some truth in there.
Like you, you have one like dominating force of AIS that
can, let's say, measure the realvalue to pay it to, to exchange

(48:14):
goods. And that's what money actually
should be like, just a measuringstick that's trustworthy to
exchange. And even Bitcoin is not there
yet because we don't see it yet for what it is, because it's so
early. And that's why it's a pity to
see that, that we don't strive in that direction.

(48:35):
Like I'm waiting for the first real Bitcoin company.
And that's a dangerous thing to say because we have many, of
course, we have like block stream and we have strategy and
we have all these kinds of in, in fact, they're not real
Bitcoin companies yet. They're using Bitcoin, they hold
Bitcoin, they try to do marketing stuff and and develop

(48:56):
some apps and and products. But are they really in the core
helping the Bitcoin standard? I don't think so yet.
Maybe it can come someday, but. Yeah, interesting.
Well, I mean, in both of those situations, I mean, the block
stream is, I mean, it's trying to build hardware wallets, it's

(49:19):
doing some open source stuff. I mean, they're doing a lot of
great work, but it's not in the sense in the real economy.
If anything, it's the financial economy of Bitcoin.
You know, if you know, there's this distinction between the
real economy of factories and and, and capital and the, the
financial economy of the, the accounting for that stuff.
And in a sense, wallets and and the software and all of that

(49:42):
stuff is the financial economy of the Bitcoin world.
And actually, you know, producing stuff as the real
economy of the Bitcoin world. And as we've talked about today,
you know, maybe you can get a coffee somewhere, but there's no
coffee beans that are priced in Bitcoin from source to to
consumer. Or this, you know, that supply
chain doesn't exist at the moment.
Really. It's going Yeah or it's.

(50:03):
They must model like individual doing that or something, yeah.
Yeah. And so I don't know, it just
this is, again, you know, seems like we may be a little bit
pessimistic about this, but I think it's worth asking these
questions. And I want to say something else
as welcome. I wonder whether in a roundabout
way, the stuff we're seeing withthe books and the conferences

(50:24):
and the kind of 21,000,000 actually, you know, because I
participate in that, you know, Ilove that stuff as much as
anyone. But at the same time, maybe that
is necessary to kind of keep thesocial tribe going to kind of
get us, you know, in the right vibe so that we don't give up on
this thing. And and maybe there's yeah, the
grassroots side of it is really important to maintain, you know,

(50:45):
we've because Bitcoin keeps going no matter what.
You know what I think, right? And I just, I don't know,
there's this kind of interplay between the social and the kind
of mathematics and and people, no matter what you do, you know,
you throw yourself at the idea of Bitcoin and you know, Bitcoin
doesn't change, you change. And so I don't know, maybe when
at the end of the day we just need to wear our orange trousers

(51:05):
and, and have our hoodies and goto the conferences because this
thing's going to do what it's going to do, you know?
Yeah, I'm, I'm really torn aboutthat because after, after years
of trying to get out there and do something, I'm, I'm really,
honestly, I'm as a person disappointed, not in Bitcoin
within the community. And the the problem with that is

(51:29):
if you have a company, for example, or you have a podcast
or you have like 20 books that you want to write, if you start
to complain, then you're the complainer, which is not really
cool to make sales. I don't have to look at that
because I don't make sales. I don't manufacture anything.
So I cannot lose customers. If they don't like me, they

(51:50):
don't like me. I don't care, but many
businesses don't have that luxury.
So if they say like, oh, let's say you have an artwork that you
made and you complain that no one is buying it, then you're a
complainer and you will not attract many customers by doing
so. And they all know that, so they

(52:11):
don't complain unless it's in private.
So I know some documentary makerwho put really hard work in
something about Bitcoin, and he complained on stage at one point
at some conference a few months ago.
And everybody in the audience was like, oh, he's really a
complainer, he should work harder.

(52:32):
And that came from people who doabsolutely nothing.
So that guy was like really having an honest discussion
about like, hey people, I literally cannot eat this week
and I made a nice documentary for Bitcoin.
So everybody enjoys documentary and they donate like some sets,
like 2000 sets here and there and that's it.

(52:53):
And the guy cannot eat that week.
So next year he will probably not make a documentary anymore.
He will do some Fiat job and do whatever.
So people have a choice between Fiat and Bitcoin.
And at the moment Bitcoin is losing for the real jobs.
I mean, so if I have to do something and I have the choice

(53:15):
now between doing it for Fiat and Bitcoin as a bitcoiner, I
should always choose hard money in Bitcoin in theory.
In practice, I choose Fiat and that's something Bitcoin has to
solve and have to recognize as aproblem.
But if you call that out, you'rea complainer and and a loser and

(53:36):
self-serving. I was called many things and
that's a bit of a problem because not everyone can say
that. If I get a mail from someone
from a well known Bitcoin company who says I agree totally
with what you write and I say, why don't you, why don't you say
it openly? It would be an an enormous
impact if you admit that it's like this.

(53:59):
Oh no, I cannot do that. OK, fine.
That's a problem. Yeah, well, I'm sorry to hear
that. Yeah.
Yeah, no, I mean, you showed up for who?
We're in Bitcoin. You don't have to shut up for
anyone. Yeah, no, I, I'm sorry to hear
that. And I guess in a sense can what
I'm humbly trying to do with this show is, is ask some of

(54:20):
these questions, you know, because as I said, you know, I
I'm flight flag, but at the sametime.
Me as well. There is a reality out there
that, you know, I've, I've been in the room with what would
effectively be called the enemy in the sense and these guys have
power, real political power, the, the legacy financial
system, the legacy political system.
And you know, we can have our conferences and our meet ups,

(54:43):
but when it comes to the true force of the state to come and
get you, I don't know, a lot of people have never really felt
that, especially in developed countries.
Maybe COVID gave people a littlebit of a kick, but the, the
government owns you in a sense and the state owns you and they
see you and, or us and our stuffas being on the balance sheet of

(55:05):
the country. And as a bitcoiner, ultimately
you you decide to opt out of that system and it just comes
with a lot of, you know, a lot of responsibility.
And I think thinking about this is important and asking
questions as important. So I did want to ask you.
So you, you mentioned and when we were talking over e-mail that
you're taking a bit of a step back from the podcast that

(55:27):
you're going to work on some other stuff.
Can you share a little bit more about that?
What's sort of coming up for you?
What are you? What are you looking forward to
next? Yeah.
So I stopped the podcast. That went well, not offline, but
I stopped producing new episodeslast week or the week before.
After three years, it was OK. The goal was to let the Belgian

(55:49):
bitcoiners be here and we did that.
I interviewed a few people and and so on.
So that's done currently. I'm writing that first the the
food for thoughts writings, which are on my website.
I was for Bitcoin dot BE and andif that's done, it's on sub
stack so everybody can read it and on highlighter on Monster.

(56:13):
And then after that, well, I'm also like vibes coding a bit.
Yeah, that's the new trends. I know, I know, but useful tools
for Bitcoin and yes, they are free and they are open source,
so everybody can steal them and do whatever within that they
like. One of them is a very simple

(56:35):
tool, BIP 39 tool.com, which is a simple tool that exchanges
between words and numbers. Sometimes you need that for
whatever reason in the BIP 39 list.
And I also am a bit of a nerd inencryption and entropy.
So I'm making a system where youhave a fair distributed entropy

(56:58):
for seed generation. The first prototype of that went
offline online, I mean, last week.
And you can use it offline as well.
So it's, it's working well. A few people are testing it and
it's going well. So I'm doing that sort of stuff.
And furthermore, I will like go back to the shadows a bit

(57:21):
because I, I realized that beingin Europe, as you say, the state
is quite powerful and something crossed a red line for me.
There are two instances with that.
One I cannot talk about and the second one is the subsidizing of

(57:41):
alt coiners. So where I live in Flanders,
there is a subsidy for educational platforms and some,
let's say questionable people. Let's say it went on there and
got some nice subsidies to actually promote Bitcoin for 5

(58:03):
minutes and then a whole series of scams for like 50 minutes or
more. And that's like it for me.
Like if the state is actually supporting these kinds of
people. And on the other side, I'm there
with my free Bitcoin podcasts that get like 2000 sets

(58:24):
sometimes for an episode. I'm done with that really after
three years. And I'm really grateful for
everyone who really supported the show and, and was there and
sent me nice messages and all that you want.
I made some nice connections andgood friends there so that's
cool. But I cannot do it anymore
because on the other side there are people like I have to tell

(58:47):
you this. Imagine having a small area
where you do a podcast only for explaining Bitcoin and on the
other side there is a a series of dudes doing the same but for
altcoins and scams and whatever.They promote the same rush to
pull twice. So they promote a rush pull, it

(59:07):
gets rush pulled to their followers.
And then they say, oh, it's restarted, man.
You have to invest right now before it's sold out and it's
from the community now and we'regoing to and they sell it again
and it gets rush pulled again. And those guys get subsidies
right now from the state. You cannot win against that.

(59:27):
It's done. So the people who are dumb
enough to follow those dudes, please do so get wrecked.
They're lost. And I made the decision right
then, like I'm done with this. You cannot fight that fight
anymore. It's it's for someone else.
I don't do it anymore. And it's not only that, there
are a few other things, but it'slike, if you're in that sort of

(59:48):
environment, you know that the state is actively putting money
against you and against the Bitcoin 8 OS.
It's not against me personally, but it's it's in general.
So no, I'm out. I will write though.
I can always write whatever I want.
And if I see something good or bad happen, I will surely call

(01:00:10):
it out or write some nice piecesabout it because I really like
to summarize and and like put itin my head like, OK, how do I
explain my stance on let's say, Bitcoin art or books or Bitcoin
jobs or whatever. And I see that many people like
that. So I keep doing that.
Well, and certainly your work resonated with me, Kim.

(01:00:31):
So yeah, I mean a step back intothe shadows, nothing wrong with
that. But I guess just sort of
wrapping up, I would be really interested.
You've been in Bitcoin for a while and you've seen a lot of
things come and go. What what are some questions or
ways of thinking that you've carried with you through these
years that have really helped you?
What has been really valuable for helping you understand
what's taking taking place? The core is that Bitcoin itself

(01:00:54):
keeps standing there to the manyups and downs we've seen.
We we saw that Bitcoin always thrives.
And you have to trust that really.
And that's difficult. It's easy to say like, yeah,
Bitcoin will go up in price. It's not about the price, it's
about the value, always value. Bitcoin means, you know Bitcoin

(01:01:15):
will be there in one year, in four years, in 15 years, in 100
years. If you really truly believe that
and know that, then you're thinking like a bitcoiner.
The Fiat system cannot say that whatever coin they have in
whatever country will probably not be there in that form in 10

(01:01:36):
years or 100 years. And if it is, it will be named
that but not have the same valueanymore.
With Bitcoin, the value only goes up because it's the math
behind it. So central banks are theatrics
and Bitcoin has mathematics. That's the main take away.
Yeah, OK. That's fascinating.
And that's ours for Bitcoin, always value Bitcoin, right, The

(01:02:01):
phrase. That's awesome.
I really appreciate your time Come and talking to me about
this stuff. It's as I said, it's sort of
your writing struck me as askingsome questions that maybe people
aren't asking. And I do hope we've been clear
here that it's, it's really a provocation for others out there
to come in and if they want to write, they want to talk about
the stuff and ask the questions.You know, it's quite possible

(01:02:23):
that our models of the way Austrian economics from the 19th
century works isn't relevant in the digital age.
Maybe the nature of manufacturing and supply chains
and all of our thoughts of moneygo out the window with Bitcoin
and the Internet. And we need some people
creatively thinking about what this means, putting in the proof
of work to explore these things and be honest with themselves

(01:02:44):
and have a Socratic dialogue. I think it's truth seeking at
its core. So yeah, I really appreciate you
giving me your thoughts on this and I hope we can.
Keep. Thank you.
Yeah, certainly it was a nice talk and you had some nice
questions as well and insights. So I'm really happily surprised.
So thank you for the. Thank you, Talk.

(01:03:04):
Thank you for listening. I am Cody Allingham, and that
was the transformation of value.If you would like to support
this show, please consider making a donation either through
my website or by directly tipping to the show's Bitcoin
wallet, or just pass this episode on to a friend who you
think may enjoy it. And you can always e-mail me at

(01:03:24):
[e-mail].