Why Choose Orange? With Bitkiwi Paul

I catch up with Paul from Bitkiwi, who was the first ever guest on this show. We actually met in my old studio in Wellington during my trip back in New Zealand. We share a drink and a laugh as we talk about being back in New Zealand, the state of the world, Bitcoin, and all that has come to pass over the last few years.

Paul also shares more on the upcoming Bitkiwi events as well as their new Bitcoin marketplace project, Orange Pages, where you can buy and sell stuff with sats.

Bitkiwi - https://kiwibitcoinguide.org/home/bitkiwi-meetups/

Orange Pages - https://orangepages.nz/

SUPPORT ME: https://www.thetransformationofvalue.com/support

X: https://x.com/TTOVpodcast

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/codyellingham

Nostr: https://njump.me/npub1uth29ygt090fe640skhc8l34d9s7xlwj4frxs2esezt7n6d64nwsqcmmmu

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TTOVPodcast

Music by Simon James French: https://www.simonjamesfrench.com/

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
The classic game theory that we've been talking about in this
time is happening right in frontof our eyes.
Some of the things I was saying to people as I was learning
about Bitcoin four or five yearsago that sounded crazy have
happened. And it's actually sometimes I
have to sit there and reflect onthat because I don't quite
realise that because it's already become normalised, some
of the things we're hearing. But it's just, it's pretty

(00:22):
insane. Hello, I am Cody Allingham and
this is the transformation of Value, a place for thinkers and
builders like you where we ask questions about freedom, Bitcoin
and creativity. Today I catch up with Paul from
Bit Kiwi who was the first ever guest on this show.
We actually met in my old studioin Wellington during my trip

(00:44):
back to New Zealand. We share a drink and a laugh as
we talk about being back in New Zealand, the state of the world,
Bitcoin and all that has come topass over the last few years.
Paul also shares more on the upcoming Bit Kiwi events as well
as their new Bitcoin marketplace, Orange Pages, where
you can buy and sell stuff with sets.

(01:06):
I would like to know what you think.
Send me an e-mail at hello at the transformation of value.com
and I will get back to you. Otherwise, onto the show.
We can celebrate, doesn't. Have to be as serious as some as
your. Of your podcast, I do get quite
serious sometimes, but. You do.
You are a serious person. I mean, I take these things
very, very seriously. Yeah, I feel like it's a it's a

(01:32):
rare treat when I see Cody get unserious.
Actually, when I hear that laugh, it actually cracks me up.
So I like to hear that more. Thank you.
No, it's it's been nice actuallybeing back in New Zealand, flew
down into Queenstown what last week, week before I would have
been set at the Saturday of bit Kiwi and you.

(01:54):
Left it tight. It was a tight, we were tight
around. Yeah, I have had delays at
Auckland Airport before that made me a bit concerned.
So I brought, I had the slightlylater connecting flight from
Auckland to Queenstown. But it was interesting because
it was like the first impressionpeople get of New Zealand is
just this dingy, dark, cavernouscustoms bio security area at

(02:17):
Auckland Airport. And I was like, just kind of a
sense of disappointment that this is like the first
impression that people get, you know?
Yeah, Yeah. You even get that to some degree
at Wellington. It's a bit nice to know the
renovations there. But I like, I like actually like
the Queenstown airport. Queenstown Airport is.
Very inviting feel when you comein, it's very light with a lot

(02:38):
of windows. It's a little bit of a different
impression and landing the planein Queenstown is impressive
between the ranges. It was actually my first time in
Queenstown, OH. Really.
Yes, yeah, I as a hawk's bait boy.
I don't know. It always just seemed far away
and unaccessible and I don't know, kind of like a tourist
thing. But now that I'm a tourist, I

(03:00):
guess it was OK. And it was perhaps the nicest
place in New Zealand in terms ofjust streets are clean, It was
very tidy. That it was noticeable to me,
actually, not just streets were clean, but I saw people cleaning
the streets, which you kind of don't see much in Wellington,
yeah. Well, I mean, I think the delta
between Wellington and Queens sounds pretty, pretty big, but I

(03:23):
don't know. It was, it was a beautiful
experience in my first time downthere.
And just the the sense that there's a sort of hidden away
from the world, which I guess iswhy it's so popular for people
to have their bunkers. Do I tell you, we there, we're
having a conversation with someone who basically their
whole job is pouring concrete for bunkers and Queenstown.

(03:45):
Well, there's because there's a whole lot of tradies and stuff
building, you know, mansions down there.
But a large amount of the work for this particular person or
their friend, I guess, was laying foundations for the
fallout shelters effectively. I don't know if they were, you
know, fully biologically, chemically impervious, but it's

(04:07):
it's just kind of an interestinglens to think about property as
the place where you go at the end of the world.
You know, yeah, I just like the dramatic backdrop of those
mountains. Are the remarkables.
Yeah, it's quite, it's really, if you're not used to just being
there all the time, it's really quite striking.
You know, you just walk around the streets and you've just got

(04:29):
these two either side, those ranges that are just so steep
and dramatic and amazing looking.
I believe I am becoming a S island maximalist.
I I would fully support the separatist movement.
I think it is the superior island.
It is amazing down there. The couple of days I spent at my
brother's place in Wanaka afterwards as well.

(04:50):
While that's amazing there in Wanaka, it's pretty.
It's really fantastic, yeah. Because we did Queenstown, we
did bit Kiwi and that was cool and it was great to see
everybody there. And then I was in Christchurch
and that's also, I mean, I've been going on about this with
other people, but I'm so blown away with what has happened with
Christchurch. It's a real phoenix from the

(05:12):
ashes kind of story, and City just feels like it's happening.
It's interesting how it's completely flipped.
I went to visit a Christchurch about 20 years ago, and at that
time, Wellington was kind of peaking, you know?
It had the coolest little capital narrative going.
It felt like a cool place to be.Everything was awesome.
And I went down to Christchurch and I just thought it was an

(05:33):
absolute shithole. Like, they remember the whole
smog and they still get the smog, or what's the deal there?
But the Willow? The wisp.
Yeah, yeah, Swampland. Yeah, and I just walked around.
I just thought, man, this place sucks, and Wellington's so much
cooler. And now it's the exact opposite.
Wellington feels, really. It's quiet, man.
It's really, it's, it hasn't moved on really from 20 years

(05:53):
ago and it's not maintained as well and it's just not that
nice. And then you go down to
Christchurch and post earthquakeit's been rebuilt into something
that's really nice to walk around and quite attractive.
Well, I think there's something about letting go of places.
There's this Portuguese word sodaji, which is a nostalgia for
places you can't return to. And my Wellington of 10-15 years

(06:17):
ago, at the peak for me back then, it was, yeah, it was the
coolest little capital. It was happening.
It was the film industry. There was all these like
startups and these accelerators and it's like an energy.
But I think a number of things politically have happened.
And of course the 2016 earthquakes and it's just, yeah,
it's just kind of tired. And I, I also wonder just how

(06:39):
much impact the encroachment of the public sector has had on
just normal people, because the only way to get ahead in this
city is to work for the government in some capacity, you
know, And if you have a choice between starting a business or
working for a ministry, your safe bet is going to be to go
for the government job. And so how many people have we

(07:02):
lost to that machine, you know? Well, yeah, I see.
It's just really good people in government that you wish would
be out doing something else withthe.
Liberate active for. Society, I mean, it's naturally
just, you know, it's the capital, it's government town.
I still think there is a lot of a good, good IT around

(07:22):
Wellington. I mean, a lot of it's here
because it is supporting government, but it's also
pretty, you know, I deal with quite a few IT companies in
Wellington. They're really quite good to
work with and it's really progressive and forward thinking
and doing quite cool things. And but yes, it's a government
town and it's dominated by that.And then when you've got the
current government pulling back staff numbers and it has a huge

(07:46):
impact on the economy and and everything around here.
And, you know, it's kind of sad to see this.
It seems every other day there'sfamous, it's like institutional
hospitality, institutional restaurants, cafes and things
are shutting down. It's really quite what's there
to see, bud. I mean, I don't think it's the
end of anything. You know, it'll rejuvenate

(08:08):
itself, but maybe in a differentway if we government continues
to shrink. Well, I think when I put my
creative lens on and look at what was happening, there's just
people holding on. And I'm one of these people.
I was holding on to an A myth ofWellington.
And people have said the same thing about like New York.
I read this really good book, Vanishing New York, which is

(08:28):
sort of about the hyper gentrification of Manhattan.
And, you know, used to have all these bohemians and artists,
some kind of creative people, but now it's all just Wall
Street Bros. And it's kind of killed the
thing that made New York, NY AndI wonder whether the same kind
of thing has happened with some of these cities that we love,
like Wellington. Yeah, it used to be cool and

(08:51):
bohemian and kind of alternative.
But now it is just the government and property and is
kind of tired and there's peopleholding on to their jobs at
higher levels. There's no room for the new
growth to come up. And it's like, man, is that
endemic to all cities to go through that kind of cycle Well.
Perhaps it feels like there's a trend, like there's the cooler

(09:13):
parts of Wellington I find now we're out in the suburbs and the
more satellite places. Like, you know, I'm up in Kapiti
and I feel like it's getting nicer up there, like rail medi
and Waik and I are really attractive and rich towns.
With the changing of the motorway over the last 10 years,
Padapadam is reconfiguring at city centre and it's basically

(09:35):
shifting from where the old highway was to the new.
And so you're seeing some good rejuvenation up there.
And for you know, the general trend of malls of that they are
dying. But the mall up in Padapadam,
it's quite lively, quite populated and well used.
And then out towards where I grew up in Upper Hutt, you know,
that's seen quite major growth, particularly in hospitality

(09:55):
around the Brewtown Centre, which has been huge.
That's a major complex. It is a major complex and it's
growing and now you're seeing really like you're actually
seeing big musical acts prefer to go there over Wellington City
centre is happening fairly regularly now and it's really,
actually really cool when you gothere.
And it's been a real success outthere.

(10:17):
And so I think we'll continue tosee that sort of thing, like
when I go to those places, it feels much nicer and better than
when I'm in Wellington Central city.
And I wonder if that's kind of aglobal trend, you know, now with
remote working being so widespread and you don't have to
congregate to the centre necessarily anymore.

(10:37):
Yeah, I think we'll see that continue to spread.
I wouldn't be surprised if thesemore satellite places outside of
Wellington and the wider Wellington region keep growing
and improving. Yeah, I wonder because I, I sort
of left Wellington, you know, toset up our operation in Japan.
And I guess seeing Christchurch in Queenstown this time around,

(10:58):
it was like, it was quite refreshing that it reminded me
of what I love about New Zealanders and New Zealand
culture and this kind of innovative DIY thing.
You know, they're in that littlehigh or High Street Litfield St.
area and Cross Church CBD. There's like a number of
accelerators and innovation hubsand stuff and they're not

(11:18):
bullshit. Like they're real.
Like there's the ministry of Awesome, there's the epic
centre, there's, there's a couple of things going on there.
That's where we had the, the Kiwi and Christchurch at the,
the Ducks, just that sort of area.
And like that little hub, it's like, and that's the stadiums
just down the road from that, the new stadium, the building.
And I'm like, man, this feels like a real hub of activity.

(11:42):
And when you look at the startups that they listed on the
Ministry of Awesome, the cohort that that's going through this
year, it's like actual stuff. You know, it's not kind of fluff
projects. Like they're real businesses,
real innovators. I also wonder if a big part of
this driving is like, yes, it's really nice since the rebuild, a
big part of it in Christchurch is because a lot of it's new,

(12:03):
but the, you know, the big crippling factor in New Zealand,
the housing market. Oh, man, So with all the turmoil
after the earthquake in Christchurch, you know, it's the
only real place in New Zealand where there's been a massive
rebuild of not just the Sinner City, but domestic housing.
And so for a long time, it's become the most bang for buck

(12:26):
for housing. And I know my brother for
example, who moved to Wanaka, they, he was strongly
considering Christchurch for a long time because of what you
could get there in a large city centre and you could actually
build a decent sized house for apretty decent price.
So I think I do know of a lot ofpeople who have shifted from
Wellington to Christchurch for that reason.

(12:47):
And so then you bring in those people and then a more vibrant,
newer city centre and it just creates a fertile ground for
that. There's something sort of
psychological about a city in decline and I really feel that
that is Wellington and arguably Auckland as well.
Cities in decline they have, they enter into this kind of dog
eat dog protectionist kind of mode where those who are

(13:10):
established home owners, people with, you know, established
businesses or careers, they get defensive to new growth coming
up. And ultimately in the short term
that's good for that individual,but it actually makes the whole
system less versatile. And what I liked about
Christchurch, just the vibe is there was a lot of young people.
There was a lot of exchange students and kind of people you

(13:31):
could see who'd gone through theUniversity of Canterbury and it
just felt like you could go there and there was opportunity
and there were jobs and there were things you could do as a
young person to get on, you know, begin the journey, I
guess. And that's just globally, that's
something we've kind of forgotten.
I think like what it feels like to to have ambition and, and

(13:52):
kind of like a, a, a vision for the future, I guess.
And when it's, and there's someone who said like when it,
when it's a society starts to value it's older people over
it's young people, that's the beginning of the end.
And of course you have to have POT for your, you know, older
members of society. But when the on a systematic

(14:14):
level, if they're first in line,you start to just have this
solidification of prejudices and, and things don't change
because they don't want them to change.
And Japan's a shocker for that. You know, the whole system there
is designed for retirees pretty much.
And all of the the political apparatus sort of aligned with

(14:34):
older voting voters. And I wonder New Zealand really
has an opportunity because we dohave a lot of young people here.
And we are we. But the country is losing
people. And this is a topic that's in
the mainstream media. But man, I moved to
Christchurch. I got some Christchurch mirror
or something on the show. But yeah, well, I mean, there's

(14:55):
it's a big challenge for the world in New Zealand because
naturally because of World War 2, the boomer demographic means
that we do have a large percentage than usual over world
history that is of a certain agedemographic.
So it's something that we are naturally fighting.
And I don't blame that generation.
I mean, we're all we're all going to be the same as we get
older, just this time around, we've got more people in that

(15:17):
cohort, so they naturally have more influence.
And so and actually the ambitionyou mentioned is the huge factor
because I feel like in the current Fiat dominated world,
it's a killer of ambition. You know, it's do university
degree, buy your house and get your job and work 40 years for
your retirement and that's it. And you know, there is, you

(15:39):
know, we need to get more peopleambitious and motivated about
life and not this fair rat race.Well.
I think, you know, I do know a few people who have
successfully, you know, people my age who have successfully
navigated that rat race and they've clocked it, I guess.
And it takes a certain degree ofcommitment and skills and luck.

(16:00):
I think it's not guaranteed, certainly.
But the hard part is you do giveup a lot to follow that path.
And what I think has lost the opportunity cost is that people
who would otherwise give crazy ideas a shot again are stuck
working, maybe whether it's government or whatever, but
they're working jobs that are not adding to the net

(16:21):
entrepreneurial level of of the place.
And you know, I think of people I know as well.
Again, could they have started abusiness if things were more
pumping? Well, I definitely feel that
drive and ambition now and I just, you know, I wish I had it
20 years ago because I lived in that.
I had that same attitude of, well, this is it really, this is

(16:43):
it for 15 years before I just really shook off the Malaysian
thing. Actually, there's something else
to life or that was when I foundBitcoin really that drove the
ambition and made me realise what was going on here and what,
how I should be behaving. And now, now I'm really a
different person than I was sortof 5-6 years ago thanks to
finding that and among other things.

(17:05):
And I think man, how can I help some other young people not
follow that path and, and get that ambition Now don't think
this is it. You can't buy a house because of
our market. Don't just settle, you know, do
something. Find something.
It's it's all cliched but find your passion and just run after

(17:25):
it. Well, there's something coming
back to the housing piece, thereis something quite pernicious
about that. When I come back to New Zealand
and I'm looking around and it isideological, I believe.
And you know, I keep raving on about this Jacques Lul book
about propaganda, but he talks about it quite clearly.
You know, the state has ideas and directives and things that
it wants to encourage within people's minds.

(17:48):
And then the propaganda from themedia encourages that.
And so New Zealanders, you know,they love their, what is it the
block these, these shows around home renovations and like DIY.
And I mean, I don't, I don't watch TV that much, but my
impression is that those are still super popular.
Everyone's talking about housing.
No matter what the rates do, therates go down, the rates go up.

(18:10):
People feel this fetish for property and it's because
there's nowhere else for them toput their money, as we know.
Yeah, the house is the number one store of value in New
Zealand and many other countriesaround the world.
And it's totally understandable because where else are you going
to put your money? It's the safest, best bet.
Safest houses, yeah. And I look at that and there's a

(18:31):
few situations that I've been this time around back in New
Zealand, I talk to people and I'm like, look, you do realise
the opportunity cost of this is that you're not buying Bitcoin.
And I'm, I mean, I'm a crazy person when I say that, but are
you really, Are you ready to betthat over the next five years
that your property will outperform Bitcoin?
Like, Are you sure about that? Can you have you, you know, can

(18:52):
you give me some information that maybe I'm missing?
Because I don't think that's true.
You know, well, I've recently come to the realisation maybe it
should have been sooner, but I'll never buy another house.
So I own a house now. Sometimes I have regrets about
buying that house, but then I, you know, I have children, so I
like having the stability of a place that no landlord can

(19:14):
remove me from and that they canhave firm footing in a place
that that's an out with an out control.
Well, hope to some extent 99%, there's always a chance you
don't. You know, there's always say
Bitcoin is the only thing you truly own.
Everything else in your life, including your life itself, can
be taken by somebody. But if you take your Bitcoin
correctly, nobody can take it. It's the real estate thing you

(19:36):
can have. But I digress.
But yeah, I will never buy another house.
It's not the effective place to store my wealth.
And I cannot see an argument long term as to anything being
better than Bitcoin to store your wealth and watch it grow on
purchasing power. And I think they'll only grow

(19:58):
over time. And well, yeah, it's just, it's
just going to be the most wonderful thing for the world
because now people can really save money without speculating
it. And you know, to to the non
Bitcoin of that sounds crazy because they only see Bitcoin as
some kind of speculation, but it's actually not at all as we
know. And that's just what the world

(20:19):
will do one day that we are doing now.
And yeah, I'll never buy anotherhouse.
And I mean, Bitcoin changes its perspective so much that I also
don't think I'll even buy another car.
You know, my friends and family joke about my car.
I joke about my car. I'm just running that thing to
the ground. We nicknamed it the Rattler.
And everyone said, why don't youjust get something here?

(20:42):
I'm like, no, never run this into the ground.
And then I'll lease something orsomething.
But I just can't see any point in any other real assets.
You know, I only want things forthe utility value that I need
them for. And any wealth I have will be
100% stored in Bitcoin. Yeah, interesting.
I was having a thing last night.I had AI met with a few people

(21:03):
last night and we were talking about this, you know, this craze
for paper money, which isn't a new thing.
You know, Thomas Jefferson talksabout this, writes about this,
that, you know, the the craze for paper money, it kind of
consumes people. And you know, there's these old
Old Testament stories of like the golden calf and the
idolatry. And I was thinking, you know, at

(21:24):
least back then it was gold, youknow, but the idle tree today of
paper money and fear, it's like,I don't know, there's just, I, I
haven't fully worked out a, a, athesis around this, but it just,
it feels like there's something quite symbolic about that, the
emptiness of that, that it isn'teven precious metal, which maybe

(21:48):
is, you know, got some. So you know what they call
utility, you know, but it's like, it's just paper.
It's just Fiat and. People express a desire to have
wealth. Even my feeling where the
interesting discussion of my 13 year old child where she said
something, you know, one day I want to be a millionaire.
And I was like, no, you don't. What do you mean?

(22:08):
Yeah, I do. And I said, no, you don't.
You want something else and you think being a millionaire is
going to achieve that or maybe it will, but that's not actually
what you want. You don't want $1,000,000 in
papers sitting in your bedroom. What's that going to do?
You can set fire to it. What do you really want?
And so you had a great discussion and it actually

(22:28):
boiled down to the same as you and I and the same as what I
believe everybody really wants is they just want a freedom over
their life. You know, she's eventually got
it back to all I want, I want tobe a millionaire because then I
can do what I want and I can chase the things that I want to
chase and I can do that. I said, so you don't really want
$1,000,000, you want that what you just said.

(22:49):
And so that your world view at the moment is that $1,000,000
will enable that, but that's actually what you really want.
So let's forget about the $1,000,000 and talk about that.
How can you achieve that? Or even just dwelling on that
point, you know, I mean, it's quite simplistic, right?
You know, it's something, you know, obviously a child would
say is I want $1,000,000. But if you actually interrogate

(23:10):
that the people who win Lotto orwhatever, I mean, they, it
actually is quite real that people have mental health crises
after winning money, for example, or maybe the as they
come into some kind of inheritance or whatever.
It's fairly common that that causes a bit of a crisis because

(23:31):
our entire ideology coming back to Jacques, lul.
But you know, this, this idea ofwealth generation of our jobs,
our careers, it is institutionalized in US and most
people are just on the, the hamster wheel.
And when you actually get off itand you get to the end, it's
like, well, what now? And that's kind of a quite a,
it's quite a confrontation, right?

(23:53):
Yeah, there's been some interesting quotes and comments
and attitudes from a few, like celebrities who've, you know,
got all that money and fame and comfort.
Like Russell Brand is definitelyone, he talks about that a lot.
But there's a great quote from Jim Carrey, I think it is where
he said something like, I can't remember the exact words, but do

(24:13):
something like, I wish everyone in the world could get the fame
and success and money that I gotso they could see that it's not
the answer. Something like that might not be
the exact words, but it's like, you know, everybody's chasing
that and they don't necessarily realize that once they get
there. That's not that's not the
answer. That's not it.
Well, in a funny way, Bitcoin, you know, you go through the

(24:35):
rabbit hole and I think you arrive logically, you
rationalize and you understand the nature of money and that
begins to open up space to consider other things.
And I think there's a quite a connection between people
exploring Bitcoin and then maybeasking spiritual questions or
questions of that nature, which within the current framework of

(24:59):
late stage Fiat, you're sort of it's quite hard to ask that
question because people are simply too busy to stop and look
around. And I'm right.
Have you ever seen, you rememberFerris Bueller's Day Off?
Yeah, Yeah. You know, every every once in a
while, you got to look around and see what's happening.
Otherwise, you know, you'll missout.
And I'm sort of reminded of that.

(25:20):
Like we just work and work and we're very diligent creatures
and industrious. But even like, I don't know if
this is true, but apocryphal stories that like medieval
peasants worked less than we do because they had a lot of like
holidays and stuff for the church and you know, like they
only had the season, you know, half the year and da, da, da.

(25:41):
So they actually they had a lot more free time than we do where
most people are like on call or Slack or emails, you know,
they're always in this kind of mode of work and that maybe
prohibits the sort of silence and the space needed to consider
larger questions that go beyond that sort of stuff.
So I see that in Bitcoin, you know, you start to see these

(26:03):
kind of rejections of traditional structures around
career or work people back. I mean, in short, you know,
don't give a fuck kind of style and and it's kind of cool, you
know, so it's kind of radical take and.
Well, these, you know, the wholeFiat world is, you know, it is

(26:24):
money is dead. The world is now structured on
debt. Your average person lives in
debt. And so you were actually so
beholden to that. You know, you need to have this
nine to five regular paycheck sothat you can pay your mortgage
or your rent. And if that disappears, most
people have a real crisis and trying to sort that out.

(26:46):
And I think we've lost sight a little bit of that.
We should really just be chasingthat freedom to be able to make
your own choices and get yourself in a position where you
can choose. Actually, I don't like this job.
I want to do something different.
I'm going to stop doing this now, even though I don't have
something else to go to on Monday.
There's so few people that can afford to make a decision like

(27:06):
that. And I feel like a lot more
people should be in the positionto make that decision and our
world structure in a way that it's not designed very well for
you to be able to do things likethat.
I think I'm reminded when I was in university, I was flirting
with this guy and he was incredibly intelligent, you
know, master's student. And I remember he ended up his

(27:27):
working, he's doing my Rd. worksas his job while he was
studying. And I just remember really
dwelling on the dichotomy, the difference between like, you
know, he was doing these like Rd. works like shovelling
asphalt. And then he's working on these
like thesis on, on, you know, onthe the rest of the time.
And I wonder, you know, how manygeniuses have we lost to the

(27:49):
Fiat machine who could build things and take us to the stars
and take us to the places we need to go as a species because
they cannot afford to lose theirjob because they have to pay
their mortgage and all of that bullshit.
And that sounds that can have a a communist spin.

(28:10):
But I think if we look at it andzoom out a little bit, I mean,
that certainly is a valid question.
The neoliberal kind of take a bit, well, you know, tough luck,
you know, deal with it. But I think that's also
political ideology. I think both of these fail to
really question the underlying assumption of the way money
works. And I think that's in a

(28:30):
roundabout way that, I mean, that's why we're here to talk
about Bitcoin. But it's like, yeah, there is a
fundamental issue there that hasbeen looked at from many
different places, but very rarely do people really go into
the nature of money. And in particular, it's Fiat
debt forms and that sort of thing.
And it's it's certainly an interesting place to ask
questions from. Well.

(28:50):
Yeah, most people, like most of the world, doesn't understand
what money is anymore. And you know, it's just a medium
of transfer to. Transformation of value.
To, you know, it's just you're, you know, you're producing,
you're, you're turning out if every day to produce things and

(29:13):
you can't possibly produce everything you need yourself.
And so getting money in return so that you can trade with
others to get the things that you're not producing yourself.
And it's really that simple whenit comes down to it.
And we've completely lost sight of that.
You know, I will, you know, havea weekend where I will, you
know, mow my lawns and fix this thing and water my gardens and

(29:38):
tidy my house and clean up and get everything in a nice spot
and work hard. And it is so satisfying at the
end of that weekend. And I'm thinking, man, there's
only a few more things I need todo where I'm actually producing
enough for myself yet I wouldn'thave to go to work tomorrow.
I don't think many people would have that thought really.

(30:00):
And you know, now I've got to goto work tomorrow because I can't
actually produce my own energy to power this house.
And, you know, I can't grow, I do grow some food here, but I
haven't got any animals here to slaughter or there's certain
other products and things. And so I've got to go to work
for money to get those things. But we don't, we get really,
really, most people don't see itthat way anymore.

(30:22):
And so now I'm, you know, my mindset's changed.
I'm looking how can I fund thosethings somehow other way or
produce those things myself? Because how good would it be if
I could just be here all the time producing and doing all of
this and not have to go and do some work for somebody else for
some outcomes that I'm not really that not passionate

(30:43):
about. And so it's, you know, and
people were just in that tune ofthat 9:00 to 5:00.
There's no you're a lot more passionate when you're doing
something on your own house or in your own property or with
your own things and family, thenjust going to to fulfil somebody
else's passion and return to some paper.
So what's interesting about whatyou just said, I think I really

(31:05):
would encourage anyone who's thinking like this to, to to
look and to read objectively some of the writings of Marx.
And I'm not saying anything like, you know, take it at face,
take it to be, you know, truth. But what you are saying is
actually what he wrote about. And I believe he was absolutely
wrong in many regards, but he was responding to a system and

(31:29):
his thoughts. You know, you read Duska Patel
volume 1. He's responding to exactly what
he said, a disenfranchisement, you're selling your time, labour
for money. He had a critique of this new
thing, this industry, this industrial revolution.
He, he certainly was wrong abouta lot of things.
And I, I really disagree with him.
But the fact is he was looking at it and you're asking those

(31:51):
questions. And the problem we run into,
Paul, is people say, begin to think like what you're saying
and they start thinking, well, how do we fix this?
And they go a bit further and they read his other stuff about
communism and then we get into trouble.
And so he, he sort of pointed the finger.
And again, I, I, there's actually some, I mean, I've got
highlights in capital volume onethat it's like, this is, this is

(32:13):
useful stuff. But if you go further and then
you get into the communist thing, that's when it gets
dangerous. And so I'm starting to sort of
see this, this thing emerge, like there's a
disenfranchisement. And when people get
disenfranchised, they become simplistic and they're able to
be controlled and manipulated. You see what I'm saying?
And so that's actually a very dangerous place to be because
all it takes is someone to standup and say, well, what are we

(32:35):
doing? You know, let's, let's fight,
let's, let's have the revolution, you know, and it's a
colour revolution. That that follow on aspect that
I disagree with wholeheartedly obviously in having some kind of
central control to distribute this the results of all this
effort. We're actually my passion is
really that that you can be the sovereign individual and.

(32:57):
Well, that's the answer we have now.
Yeah, and that's what Bitcoin brings.
All right. I guess we're I'm getting at
those. I mean, this is this is sort of
a bit more intellectual, but he does ask the questions that
we're asking, but then he comes up with solutions that are not
good, basically. But if you look at his working
and you took away the name Marx,what you just said is what he

(33:18):
says, you see, and I think that's very interesting.
I'm. A little bit afraid of where
that's putting me, but no, no, no, I get it.
It's true. It's disenfranchisement.
And like, that is a social relationship and that's where
you get into class and all thesethings.
And absolutely the the solutionsthat are going to come out, not
from you and me, but from the others.

(33:40):
And I don't want to other them, but you know, there are others
out there who will be like, OK, let's redistribute, let's do
this, let's do that. And that creates a lot of social
issues. Yeah, I definitely am far
removed from that. I definitely did not have that
train of thought when I think about the identification of that
problem, obviously. Not, not accusing you, not
accusing you. I'm just saying, I'm just saying

(34:02):
the logic starts off in the sameplace and I we because it is
truth, what you were saying is true.
But then when it comes to how dowe solutionize that, that's when
we run into issues and that's where you have to.
Be I think is Marx would more belooking at OK, so let's produce
our own effort locally, but thenwe'll take the outputs of that
effort and put it in one pole and distribute it to everybody,

(34:24):
which is where things go very, very South as we've seen over
human. History, he does have nuance.
Yeah. I'm not trying to defend him.
I mean, he's definitely wrong onso much.
But it's just interesting that these pieces of writing, and
there's others from that period,they were responding to the
Industrial Revolution, which wasnew, right?

(34:44):
And we're on the other end of that.
So they were dealing with it in the 19th century when it, oh, it
wasn't new new, but it was beginning to to pick up.
We're on the wrong end of that. We're deindustrializing, we've
got stuff like AI and like busy work.
And it's not even like we're in the factories, like slaving
away, selling our time into capital.

(35:04):
We're doing busy work on our computers that literally doesn't
mean anything. And it's a great existential
crisis. And that's, I do think it comes
back to the nature of money, which Marx gets very wrong as
well. And I think if we go down the
Bitcoin path, we see that it's there's actually a much more
holistic social humanist. Solution.

(35:27):
I haven't read a lot of marks, but doesn't he actually identify
money as the area where the control and destruction of
capitalism can happen is throughthe control and centralisation
of the money? I'm I'm sure I've seen quotes
from bitcoiners talking about this.
Maybe I haven't got that that far.
I don't. I don't know about that.
I'm not a Marx expert. No, it's certainly interesting.

(35:49):
Sorry, not for anyone listening.I'm certainly like fuck Marx.
Like just he, it's, it's just very interesting.
It's kind of like, you know, whatever, none of us like
politicians, but it's like it's still kind of important to know
what they said sometimes becauseit affects our reality.
It's kind of a bit like that. It's like.
Well, he's obviously been a strong influence on the current

(36:11):
mainstream politics. And I think if we are going to
build stuff, you kind of need toknow what is already out there
to some degree. And I think that's, I mean,
knowledge is power ultimately. And I mean power is also power.
But but like certainly knowing what has happened, but I don't
know how we got on that track. It was more about your

(36:33):
disenfranchisement with the system.
But I don't know. I mean, I guess because you
can't really be self-sustaining though, that's the thing.
You need a community around you.So I don't know, is that the
upper heart? Well, the world of trade is a
beautiful thing and is necessarybecause like I was pointing out,

(36:53):
I can't produce my own energy. I mean, I could try, but you
know, that's probably 1 centralised thing where I don't
foresee myself replacing that with my own energy source
anytime soon. So I'm certainly, well, I just
think trade is probably just general trade and the most

(37:16):
general of terms is just about one of the most powerful things
in human history. And money is the neighbor of
that. Obviously I'm going back to
these classical problems that all Bitcoiners understand, but
yeah, that and now we have Bitcoin, which is the best
medium to enable trade that I think we've ever had.

(37:37):
And so I, and, and, and I think it's inevitable.
So I'm hugely optimistic for thefuture.
And my biggest hope at the moment is that it can be fast
enough to happen inside my lifetime, or at least in my
children's lifetimes, which I think it will with the pace of
the world. You know, it's one of these
things where we, we could be on a Bitcoin standard in 30 years

(38:00):
or we could be on a Bitcoin standard in five years.
And or somewhere in between. And either of those options
wouldn't surprise me at this point.
Things can happen that fast or they could take that long.
Sooner the better for me. Although, you know, we could be
a bit of turmoil if it happens too fast.
But maybe not. I mean, with the current events

(38:21):
around the world, adoption is accelerating massively.
And, you know, now we're seeing obviously huge influence from
the way that the United States has been moving now and the
general narrative around Bitcointhat's happening through there
that we could see this very fast.
I mean, I don't think it's goingto be that long before you're
able to custody Bitcoin in the central bank, not a central bank

(38:43):
in a banking app and these sortsof things.
I mean, they're all just going to come on board.
The classic game theory that we've been talking about all
this time is happening right in front of our eyes.
Some of the things I was saying to people as I was learning
about Bitcoin four or five yearsago that sounded crazy have
happened. And it's actually sometimes I

(39:03):
have to sit there and reflect onthat because I don't quite
realise that because it's already become normalised, some
of the things we're hearing. But it's just it's pretty insane
that things that were absolutelybatshit crazy four years ago
have actually happened now. Yeah, it's interesting because
things are moving. Certainly I, I, I still wonder

(39:24):
if we can learn from similar movements in the past, in
particular the industrial revolution, which was when a lot
of the Austrian economic economics guys came, came
around. It's when Marx came out.
It's when a lot of these new thought systems emerged kind of
post enlightenment. And I wonder like, man, that

(39:45):
that was like a lot slower than maybe what's happening now.
But it was as transformational, you know, it went from the
peasantry and, you know, kind offarmland to these factory
cities. Like that was a pretty big
change. And I wonder whether that was
actually a bigger change than what we're going to go through
with Bitcoin and in which case or, or if it's maybe similar, in

(40:07):
which case we can look at the way society changed and
responded to that as kind of an an idea for like what's going to
happen this time around. Yeah.
Well, we could see some of thosenegative.
We probably you know, anything with change, you know, like I
was talking to Bitcoin of the other day and you know, he was
talking about and it's been a while since I thought about it,

(40:28):
but he was talking about how youknow when, when it's really
coming in and it's really adopting and there'll be some
losers. Don't be a loser in the abusive
term, but just one is a losers and some people who who will
resist and choose not to believethis and and active again
actively be against it. And then we'll lose and we'll

(40:51):
see blame on Bitcoin. We'll say, hey, these there's
some problems happening here. This is because of Bitcoin.
So he seriously believes that that is a fight we will fight
and he made a very good argumentabout that.
I thought, you know what, he's probably right.
We will start to see that. I, I, I believe so as well.
And I guess part of my work, as I say to people, is trying to

(41:13):
build bridges and why I keep bringing up the Marx thing.
As I said, I absolutely despise the man and his thoughts and his
ideology. But unnecessarily, when we go
through, he was responding to the change that was happening in
the Industrial Revolution the best way he could, whether this
resentment and the stuff that the communists bring with them.

(41:33):
But what is that going to look like for us today in response to
Bitcoin? We're already seeing murmurs of
it, but Bitcoin is aren't reallysingled out as the cause of
downturn or the cause of inflation.
But there is an opportunity thatas money escapes the Fiat system
into or value escapes into the Bitcoin ecosystem and it just

(41:54):
deflates the Fiat bubble that could actually become a target.
And we don't know what that's really like.
Like we've had a lot of FUD, kind of ad hoc FUD, but when
real FUD happens, like the kind of FUD you saw leading up to
like the invasion of Iraq or theFUD around like Russia and
Ukraine, Gaza, like actual mainstream media constant

(42:17):
attacks. Bitcoiners are the enemy.
They are bad people. You need to get them or COVID,
you know, that level of media penetration.
Imagine what that would look like when you have people at
work on the street or like that guy's a Bitcoiner.
He's he's, he's not wearing a mask, you know, he's, he's,
we've got to go and get him. Are we ready for that or?

(42:38):
Is that that wouldn't be very nice at all for Bitcoin.
How we've I'm only just startingto think this now, but one thing
is, you know, we there could be a real benefit with this sort of
institutional adoption that's happening in government sort of
nation state. Now.
I know there is a the probably large amount of Bitcoin is the
light man. Why are we celebrating USA

(42:59):
announcing a strategic reserve or banks and Wall Street moving
into Bitcoin. You know, the whole point of
Bitcoin is that that that they don't have the power anymore.
You know, it's it's with the people now, which I totally
agree with, but they're actuallywill probably insulate the later
adopters. So, you know, if a bank exposes
himself to Bitcoin, then they'regoing to be a hell of a lot

(43:22):
better off. If they've got a whole lot of
customers that don't care about Bitcoin or are resisting
Bitcoin. Perhaps there'll be a flow on
effect of law where the bank youbank with is it's going to help
you out here or your, your nation state is going to help
you out because they've, they'reholding a strategic reserve
that's going to work out really well for them in the future.
So they could be, I mean, I'm really just thinking about this

(43:43):
now, but there could be some helpful benefit there from the
institutions because they are, when it comes down to it,
strongly influencing mainstream media and the narrative.
Yeah, well, and the other piece of that is the classic class
struggle, which is the basis of millions of people dying in the
20th century through communism. That idea of capital and labour

(44:07):
and that division in the case ofBitcoin as unspent capital,
which is a concept or you know, you can actually save money and
and money saved as money that can be deployed as capital.
That means that anyone using Bitcoin can have capital in a
way that the so-called proletariat of Marx's writing
couldn't have because you couldn't really, I mean, maybe

(44:29):
you could have some shareholdings, but you couldn't
couldn't really have, I guess that level of agency in the time
he was writing, you know, and you had this 22 tier system.
And maybe the, the closest we'regoing to get is those who have
UTXOS and those who don't. But even and maybe some people
using lightning or some layer 2 stuff where they still have

(44:51):
sets, but they're not maybe UTX holders, but they're still
exposed to the value of Bitcoin.And I think that's maybe one of
the ways we can avoid what wouldbe a social revolution, which we
don't want to happen because at the end of the day, the
communist revolution, which was in response to arguably the
industrial revolution, that was a major human issue, right?

(45:14):
A lot of people died and we don't want that.
And so for everyone to kind of transition nicely into this new
thing, you know, and that's where I think have fun staying
poor is maybe not so useful. It's it's a useful taunt and a
meme, I guess. But when push comes to self,
like those people will just comeand get you.
And that's what happens when you've got a small number of
people outnumbered, right? You can hide your private keys,

(45:36):
but still like they can come andfind you.
And I don't think that's ever a reality.
We want to end up and of like violence and kind of.
Yeah, I totally agree. We don't, you know, I've always,
you know, we don't want a fast, painful revolution.
That's a colour revolution you. Don't we're, you know, I mean,
always shy away from statements like we need to or we have to or

(45:59):
this is, you know, I like the sovereign individual thing.
Nobody has to do anything. We don't need to.
I have no influence or power of other people.
But having said that, I think it's really important for
Bitcoiners not to try an orange peel.
The world being there, it's not good.
It's hard. It's the classic BBQ meme.
You know, you can have a great conversation with someone like,

(46:20):
oh wow, yeah, that's amazing. Anyway, just catch the game last
night. Like that's how those
conversations, you've not been there a million times.
But for the people around you immediately, the people you
love, your family and your friends, I do think it's really
important to try and help them get off 0 and be a little bit of
a part of this and start to see who had more attraction of that

(46:40):
lately, which has been good withfriends and family.
But yeah, understand and, and the key difference about
institutions coming in with any other kind of money or anything
else is the Cantillon effect andthe fact that, yes, institution
can pile in. But then no, when it comes to
Bitcoin, they're no closer to the money printer than you are,
you know. And so when a friend of yours

(47:02):
starts to educate and they buy afew $100 worth of Bitcoin,
they're getting there at the same rate that the banks getting
it or a government is getting it.
And that is the big, big difference with all other money
and assets is the interest rates.
Not a thing here, you know, justyou can get this at the same
price they can. And it's it's just an even

(47:24):
playing field, you know, it's not, it's not equal.
It's fear. Maybe.
I mean, if the bank it's still closer to the money printer so
it can get Bitcoin, it can get loans and fear.
That it's cheaper, yes. Yeah, on that side of the
equation, yeah. And you, I can't wait till we
see the First Nation state literally print money, buy
Bitcoin. It's going to be hilarious.

(47:44):
It may already be happening. Well, possibly, yeah.
I wouldn't blame them that Chinacould be doing that.
I guess this is where again, a bit more high level, I do wonder
because there is the neoliberal self sovereign thesis, which I
am certainly on board with and I've spoken about and written
about, but having multiple lenses at the same time can be

(48:05):
useful. And I do also wonder whether
there is like a good works kind of approach where Batman style
you kind of get Bitcoin into something like Kiwi Saver, which
there's already funds that have it and the average pleb or the
average person, I guess not, nota pleb, but you know, they don't
even know. And they just see their Kiwi

(48:27):
Saver increase in value, but that's mainly because of their
allocation to Bitcoin funds through Kiwi Saver either
directly or indirectly. And they're none the wiser.
And that maybe helps smooth the way slowly but surely to
bitcoinisation. And I don't fully understand
what I don't know. No one knows what the future

(48:47):
looks like, but maybe it's some sort of NZD pairing backed with
Bitcoin somehow or USD pairing and it just kind of slit slides
in and you just don't even notice for most people.
And we're we? I mean, we know, but the average
person doesn't notice a meaningful difference.

(49:07):
Well, it's interesting putting out the Kiwi Saver because
obviously that core Kiwi server fund is kind of notification of
Bitcoin that a person will knowingly choose for that
reason. However, now we'll start to see
that all Kiwi server funds in reality will have Bitcoin
exposure. So if your Kiwi Saver owns
BlackRock as some kind of investment in BlackRock, then
you've got a small exposure of Bitcoin there.

(49:28):
Like BlackRock just announced ontheir balance sheet, they are
holding a large investment of their own ETF in, in Bitcoin
now. And we'll start to see this is
that game theory playing out? They're all saying shit, we
actually can't afford not to have an allocation of Bitcoin or
where it's a, you know, when they, the risk assessment of
these organizations, which has whole teams of risk, risk

(49:50):
analysts and they, it's quite obviously black and white to me
that it will be determined a major risk if you have no
exposure to Bitcoin given the events that are going on in the
world. Also, one theory that I put out
there a while back was then I, Idon't know if I was the first
one to say this, but probably, probably not.
But I, I think Bitcoin theoretically in, in one way is

(50:11):
already the reserve currency of the world.
It is the hardest money. And so from the hardness level,
it is underwriting everything else.
And so when there's any kind of,so when there's any kind of
exposure to Bitcoin that starts to spread and instead of looking
at it, it's just sort of all mixed in there, you know, if you
actually start grading it by hardness, it is at the

(50:34):
foundation. And so I think one very
optimistic way of looking at this is that we just sort of
slowly increase that footprint of the base of Bitcoin that
people are being exposed to thatincreases in value, their Fiat
stocks or the, the, I guess the Fiat measure of their value is

(50:54):
going to go up because the holding they're exposed to
bitcoins price appreciation. And so the wealth effect means
they feel better, they feel good.
They're less likely to fall intoa revolutionary rhetoric and go
with the pitchforks. And along the line, maybe
there's some more other stuff that happens and it just slowly
bees like, well, actually it is just Bitcoin and all the other

(51:17):
stuff sort of falls away. And it's kind of the scaffolding
of the citadel sort of like peels off and it's just this
like pristine Bitcoin money. And I feel like that could be
quite a cathartic moment. You know, I love the picture you
paint, but no, I pretty much agree with all that.
And I mean, it's happening rightnow.
We've, you know, when I first read my first raft of Bitcoin

(51:39):
books, you know, I mean, I've never stopped.
I'm always reading about Bitcoin.
But the first raft when I was really, really getting that and
like this is getting a bit repeated of what we said earlier
about that. All of those theories and
everything I read about four years ago, they're really
playing out in front of our eyesand it's just become so
entrenched and so obvious to me.And it's probably the first

(52:01):
thing I feel like I've understood in my life before a
lot of other people ever. But this, the recent price
section of Bitcoin, it's just been quite astonishing to me
because I'm realizing, man, a lot of people still don't know
like everything that's happening.
If we're watching this play out exactly as predicted.
I, I mean, I can barely think ofanything I've claimed about

(52:22):
Bitcoin in the last four years that has not been true so far.
I can't think of anything false where I'm like, I know that
sounds crazy. I say that so often.
I know that sounds crazy. It's either happened or it's
happening. And I'm like, well, it really is
happening. Did I even believe myself?
Well, here it is. It's it's going on.
We're watching it unfold and then we watch some pretty
astonishing announcements on theworld stage over the last month

(52:45):
in that respect. And we watch the price just
follow the current stock market that basically.
And it's like, well, the vast majority of holders of Bitcoin
don't understand what they hold.So we've we've got Bitcoin
sitting with these huge institutions alongside their
other investments because that'sall they see Bitcoin as an
investment. It's not an investment.

(53:06):
That's not what it is. That's a useful tool that we
found in the early days of Bitcoin, but that's not what it
is. And so they're just watching
this and they see that as potentially the riskiest of
these investments. This might be the first one they
get off their books when they see signs of trouble.
I mean, it's just crazy that they've got huge amounts of
money in this thing and they actually don't understand what

(53:28):
it is. And that's still what's
happening. And so man, every man and his
dog has still got time to understand it before these huge,
huge organisations. It's like, man, it's, it's
pretty amazing to watch. So I met met with a buddy
recently and he's kind of an interesting character and he is
invested. He's a shareholder of was it

(53:50):
Berkshire Hathaway? Oh.
Yeah, yeah. Was it Warren Buffett?
Warren. Buffett's company and he
travelled all the way to the US to go to the annual shareholder
meeting. Really.
Yeah. And he got to ask a question
amongst the 40,000 people. And I was like, oh, interesting,
because that's Charlie Mungo used to be alongside Warren
Buffett, and he was the one who called.

(54:11):
But. Or was it Warren or Charlie who
called it rat poison squid? Yeah, I can't remember which one
of them was. Yeah.
And I asked my buddy, Oh, So what do you think about Bitcoin?
And it was funny because he, he just sort of came out with his
basically verbatim statements that align with what, what
Warren Buffett said. And coming back to the adultery

(54:33):
that we mentioned, he literally said, I, Warren Buffett is my
idol. And I thought that was really
interesting. And I was like, you know what?
That sounds like a cult. And I said to him, he's, oh, you
know, he kind of went around in circles and I was like, well,
look what, you know, Bitcoin, hethought Bitcoin has no utility,

(54:53):
blah, blah, blah. This is a classic FUD.
And I said, well, is this something you've come to on your
own or is this received knowledge?
You know, because most of my knowledge is received.
I haven't got that many originalideas.
But he's like, yeah, I came intoit on my own.
And I was like, you know what? You've still got these legacy
billions of dollars, trillions of dollars in institutions like

(55:14):
that that don't even want to look at this thing.
And it was just kind of strange because it was like, how do you,
how do you be so blind to that? Yeah, I can't possibly believe
that you can truly come to that conclusion on your own if you
really actually researched that classic.
Was it Sailor? Whoever said it, anyone who's

(55:37):
done 100 hours doesn't think it's not a thing like that.
And you know, I've met no one who's read or researched it feel
extensively in a Bitcoin from a Bitcoin only leans who has come
to that conclusion. And I just can't see it.
Maybe the only one I could thinkof maybe isn't the same to live.

(56:00):
But has he really done 100 hours?
You've got to question it because he's he's been the
craziest flip flop I've ever seen.
From writing the forward to the Bitcoin standard to saying it's
nothing. That's the only person I could
even think of that looked like they did some research and went
the other way. I think some people are just too
smart for their own good, you know?

(56:21):
Yeah. But look, I mean, I guess
because I am keen to just maybe wrap up talking about what's on
the horizon for you. But I guess my kind of
concluding remarks on on all of the stuff we've talked about is
from my perspective, certainly anumber of having a number of
lenses or filters that you can look at this through is really
important, especially looking forward.

(56:43):
I think Bitcoin, it is what it is, but what happens is anyone's
guess. And I think that's really
important to like have a number of ways of looking at the future
and what hyper bitcoinisation means or if it's even going to
happen and what it looks like when it does happen.
Being able to like look at those, look at the historical

(57:03):
examples. I can certainly recommend people
look at the social changes of World War 2, post war, the
industrial revolution and kind of these periods in human
history and, and just kind of doyour own research on like, well,
what do you think that's going to look like from a social
perspective? Because we are social animals.
We can't live on an island by ourself.
We do need other people. And so I guess my, my interest

(57:25):
isn't like a big tent. Let's, let's make this thing
happen. Education, you know, sharing the
knowledge that we have and hopefully it is a nice smooth
transition like the Internet andnot something that's kind of
divisive amongst people because I've noticed seems like it would
be a lot easier to turn down thedark path.

(57:46):
But I mean, on the education front, perhaps it's a nice
Segway, but I thought Andrew from the Kiwi Bitcoin guides
pace at Bit Kiwi 12 in Queenstown, which touched on the
famous Joe Bryan video that's been doing the rounds over the
last few months. What is the problem?
And Andrew did that, sort of massaged it, worked with Joe
Bryan directly, which is really cool and massaged it a little

(58:08):
bit and cut it up with a few facts to to make it a bit New
Zealand centric. And I thought that was really,
really good and I had seen what is the problem.
But watching it with a little bit of a New Zealand lens over
it was quite insightful and awesome.
One of the highlights of our event in Queenstown, and I think
it was Harry Satoshi put a videoon YouTube the other day about

(58:32):
the Bit Kiwi event. He'd, he'd done a bit of Rd.
trips, so it was quite fun to watch.
And he made a few comments in there that he was found that
really insightful and he even had few shots of the slides and
that and, and thought that the information was really good.
And that made me think that although Bit Kiwi, we tend to
get mostly Bitcoin as you already sort of get this.

(58:55):
I thought that piece of education was really good for
what we're talking about and really understanding, I guess,
Cliche, what is the problem? Yeah, and I think sharing that
and being aware that we have received knowledge that not
everyone has, and I mean, we're all here trying our best.
I mean, we all try to orange peel people, but I think that is

(59:17):
an honourable thing. And, you know, some people have
given up on that, but I, I thinkit's a really good use of time
and especially when you have people who are willing to have a
bit of an open mind. Yeah, that was a good talk.
You can actually get that on Twitter.
James Paggiano at James Biggie did an awesome thread where he

(59:38):
cut up the five talks from Bit Kiwi and posted about them on
Twitter. And that was really cool.
And I know I've seen a few people, I've seen that link to
quite a few people who have watched that found it really
interesting, but. Talking about Kiwi.
So what's the You got the next one lined up?
Yes. So we can announce Bit Kiwi 13,

(59:58):
we've locked in our venue and date in Auckland.
So that's going to be on July 26th in Auckland, 1:00 PM to
5:00 PM and it'll be at the BirdCage in Freeman's Bay in
Auckland, which is just sort of on the edge of the CBD there.
So we've got, we've booked that venue out.
It looks like a really cool venue.
It's like a really old historic building.

(01:00:21):
It's got a nice feel inside and good for something, perhaps
something similar ish to what wehad in Queenstown.
So we are looking at lining up acouple of speakers for that.
So you're pretty excited and we've locked it in nice and
early. So hopefully people can travel
if they want to travel. So yeah, July 26th, 1:00 PM at
the Bird Cage and as always. But Kiwi will be free and open

(01:00:47):
to all, as is our ethos so. Freeman's body.
I like the name of that. Yeah, I really don't know
Auckland that well, to be honest.
I've been up there a bit, but I've not.
Really, there's a bit of a sceneup there.
I'm heading up there next week. Well, yeah, because we've got,
well, there's the Auckland Bitcoin Club running that
made-up up there, which started,was it 6 or 12 months ago and

(01:01:11):
they're kind of great guns. They're getting good numbers.
Sounds like it's a really awesome meet up.
Haven't been. I'm not sure if I will time and
when I'm up there. It'd be cool if it did.
I don't know. And I've worked with Nate who
organizes that, He's been to BitKiwi events and we've given him
a bit of a hand on one or two elements as he was getting
started. He's doing a great job and he

(01:01:31):
had really good feedback. So I really hope a lot of people
who attend that meet up will getalong to Bit Kiwi.
I'm sure Nate will be there and yeah, we've, we've been talking
with him a little bit to get some tips and about Auckland and
some boots on the ground with him.
We have had an event in Aucklandbefore that was really
successful in 2023, but Kiwi 7 was there and that was a good

(01:01:56):
turn out back then. But now we're hoping for more.
Yeah, there's been a lot more has happened, Bitcoin since then
and I think we will get a huge, I wouldn't be surprised if we
get a massive turn out. So yeah, really excited about
that. So it'll be July.
Sounds good. Well, we do Bit Kiwi 14 and
probably in Wellington in October and then look to return

(01:02:17):
to Queenstown for our annual Queenstown event, Bit Kiwi 15 in
February, March. So that's sort of the horizon
for Bit Kiwis, but they've been growing and I think the
quality's improving. Yeah, it's just, it's going
awesome. We love it.
Yeah, well done. So there's one more thing that
we can talk about. If you want, we can tease it and

(01:02:39):
talk about it another time, or we can talk about it today.
What? What are you thinking?
Orange pages. Orange pages.
Yeah. Well, so keen is to talk about
this actually so. If people are still with us.
Yes, I hope they are because we're pretty excited about this.
So myself and Dan from Bit Kiwi have been working with the the

(01:02:59):
peerless Kiwi lamb, a lot of bitcoiners from the Kiwi lamb,
Absolute legend. And for about a year in our
spare time where we can find some, we've been developing a
website for the bitcoiners in New Zealand.
It's Orange Pages dot NZ. It is live and it is a
peer-to-peer marketplace for bitcoiners to trade things with

(01:03:24):
each other in sets. Now it is peer-to-peer.
So this is not a trade me situation where we're sitting in
the the middle of that transaction.
It's a little bit more akin to something like Facebook
Marketplace where you're the idea of Orange Pages is to
connect the buyer and the seller.
So we think it's pretty cool. We can ask people to try it out.

(01:03:45):
It is live. You can give it a go.
It is lightning authentication for sign up and logging in and
logging in. So we don't hold any real data.
You need to provide an e-mail sothat it can be connected with
the buyer or seller via e-mail. Aside from that, there's no
personal data going on. So that was a big principle of

(01:04:07):
ours. So you can go there.
You can create an account with any Lightning wallet to
authenticate and you can put up items to sell.
And when you click, when you click buy, it'll just put you in
contact with the seller of theiritem for you guys to organise
that between yourselves. And then the system is

(01:04:29):
reputational based. So it'll be enforced after a
trade that you have to rate the trade.
And you know, obviously you wanta good reputation or people will
choose not to trade with you. So yeah, we think it, we've been
building it for a while for a few different ideas and we've
got it, we've got it going and we're really keen for people to
try it out and see what they think.

(01:04:51):
And there's no, the only cost involved is it's a hundred sets
to put up a listing of an item for sale.
So the seller wears a fee of 100sets.
The item will stay out for as long as till you sell it.
So it's just a one off fee of 100 sets.
And so there's no success fees or transaction fees or anything

(01:05:12):
that's purely peer-to-peer. So you buy something, you'll get
in touch with that seller and make the transaction yourself
and ship it or pick it up or arrange all of that yourselves
and then place some feedback. So there's a couple of little
products overseas. We've seen a little bit like it,
the Caribbean market and there's, I think it's crap for
sets for sets for crap or something.
There's somewhere overseas. But even then we've tried to

(01:05:34):
keep our principles incredibly simple for New Zealanders.
So it's just real easy to login and sign up and just trade with
each other. So we're keen as see what people
think of it. Obviously three of us have
designed and built this thing inour spare time.
So you know, we, we want your feedback as well.
We've got a, there is a Twitter account at Orange Pages and say,

(01:05:58):
oh God, I might be even that wrong.
I'll give it to you to put in the notes.
So we've also got a Telegram support group that'll be linked
on the bottom of the website andother ways to contact us because
we're keen as to get feedback and see what people think of it.
But yeah, we're pretty excited about it.
Should be something fun. Have you had coin committing?
Had much uptake with? So we were, we went live with it

(01:06:21):
right before, but Kiwi Queens down and we were obviously
incredibly busy and stuck for time.
So we've done no marketing or announcement or anything before
this. So although it's been live,
nobody really knows it's sittingthere.
So, you know, we've sort of beendoing training with each other a
little bit. There's a few items up on there
that we've been playing around with.

(01:06:42):
But no, this is the first announcement and now we're going
to get a bit of word out for bitcoiners to have a go and use
it and fish out those chairs andsell whatever you can to get
some sets, you know? That's cool, man, That's cool.
I think Trade Me Trade me has unfortunately a bit of a
monopoly on this kind of thing, but being able to trade for sets

(01:07:03):
and something peer-to-peer like that, it's pretty awesome, man.
I look forward to giving it a go.
And yeah, Orange Pages, I guess that's that's, that's an easy
place to remember you get. Yeah, hopefully, yeah.
Kiwi Lam's brilliant idea. I'll give them the credit for
the name. Oh, really?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which we thought as soon as you

(01:07:24):
said it was like, yeah, that that's good, that's good.
And the domain was available, sooff we went.
And even a little bit of help from yourself on a couple of
pieces of advice as we travelled.
But no, it's been, it works a long time, but it takes a long
time to do these things. And we have day jobs and events
and lots of stuff going on. So it's pretty cool to finally

(01:07:44):
get this up and see, see if it'ssomething cool for Bitcoiners to
use. Yeah, man.
That's cool. Well, thank you man.
It's good to catch up and have you on person.
And yeah, look forward to talking again soon.
Yeah, no, it's been awesome to be back code.
Good to have you back in the country.
And yeah. And actually you just wanted to
add, man, congratulations on thepodcast.
It's been amazing watching it grow and the calibre of guests

(01:08:07):
that you've had, notwithstandingmyself.
But no, it's been really awesomewatching it grow and just become
something pretty cool. Oh.
Thank you man. I really appreciate it.
And to think it all, I mean it all started here in this room.
It did, actually. Our early episodes pontificating
and the prophecy has revealed itself anyway, Paul.
Thank you for awesome. Thanks, Cody.

(01:08:30):
Thank you for listening. I am Cody Allingham and that was
the transformation of value. If you would like to support
this show, please consider making a donation either through
my website or by directly tipping to the show's Bitcoin
wallet, or just pass this episode on to a friend who you
think may enjoy it. And you can always e-mail me at

(01:08:51):
[e-mail].