Another week of testing, Drago clear #1, and more!

Episode Transcript

Liam (00:05):
Welcome to the Trash Language Podcast.
Attendance is 100%, immediatelyI'm Halliburton, Camp Shannoy,
Ban Ahmed Dragon Shield's oursponsor, they have great
sleeves, I always use DragonShield specifically the Nomat
version.
Now I'm using the Nomat version,that's what Chris Franco said I
should use yeah, Nomat,Standard, Purple, because I play
Gardevoir,

Cam (00:24):
I think it's called classic.

Liam (00:26):
yeah, that's the cur the current look.
Yeah, Classic, sure.
Classic Dragon Shield, yes,Shannoy.
Yeah,

Abaan (00:31):
when I Dragon Shields I'm a dual mat fiend, bro.
I love my dual mats.
Like, if I'm gonna use a DragonShield, it's a dual mat.

Liam (00:38):
Yeah, the dual mats have grown on me.
I got a bunch of the Orchid onestoo.

Cam (00:43):
Come on, bro, not even saying that we're the only
podcast about Pokemon?
Jesus, bro.

Liam (00:48):
Oh yeah.
We're, we're the only podcastabout the Pokemon Trading card
camp.
Actually, probably somewhattrue.
I, I get where the joke is.
yeah, I guess this week the mostinteresting thing to me is y'all
had your Monday meetupyesterday.

Cam (01:03):
Yes.

Liam (01:04):
about our testing results?

Cam (01:06):
Sure, Regidrago ran everything and has been for the
last six years.
The last couple weeks ityesterday it went 7 0, just
clapped up Dialga, clapped upLugia, 2 decks that we were
like, Huh, they're not like, wedon't, I know that, like who was
it, Tablemon put out like a big6, and they put Lugia in there.

(01:27):
I think our group is like on abig 5 and we don't respect
Lugia, and then it proceeded toget like, go 0 against
Regidrago, went 0 3 againstCharizard These kind of outside
the tier one, or the big maindecks that we're trying, they
all kind of fell flat on theirface.
Dragonbolt fell flat on itsface, too.

(01:48):
And so I guess the big five isthe big five for a

Liam (01:50):
really quick.
Were, were you playing the Cino,Lucia, or

Cam (01:54):
Yes.

Liam (01:56):
Yeah.

Cam (01:57):
And I think like, just to clarify to our Oh, I was gonna
say, just to clarify, our topfive decks that we've, like, I'd
deem that the big five isRegidrago, Gardi, Charizard
Blocklax, and Raging Bull.
I think those are like the fivedecks we think are like, the the
decks, you yeah.
And we don't think Lugia is partof it, unfortunately.
It just hasn't been good enoughin our testing.

(02:20):
We want to try some other thingsout.
I think we were talking aboutShaman EX with Legacy Energy.
Maybe it beats Charizard, but Idon't know, like, in my mind,
there's just so many othermatchups that Lugia needs to
worry about and is not thatgreat into.
So, I don't know if it's that,like, I don't know if a random
Shaman is going to fix all itsproblems.

Liam (02:41):
I completely agree.

Cam (02:43):
Yeah, and so, I think the biggest problem too oh, yeah.
oh, go on, go on.
I was gonna say the biggestproblem I have with Lugia is
like, It used to be able to winwhen it had those mid starts,
like the turn 2 read the win,like, If I Archeops by like turn
3, 4, I'll win, like,eventually, right?
But like now, it's like, itfeels like you just have to hit

(03:03):
the nuts to have a chance in alot of these matchups, and like,
Lugia's never really that goodat hitting, like, the turn 2
Archeops hit you.
It's like, that's always been astruggling point for the deck.

Liam (03:13):
That's major facts, bro.
Amazing take.

Cam (03:19):
Yeah, I agree.
I think Cameron Kawasaki hassaid, like, in one or two of the
games, he either just didn't getturn one Charmander or he didn't
get turn two Charizard.
In two of the three or two ofthe four games and still ended
up winning because Dusknoir waswas that good.
At kind of coming back andtaking out Cinchinos and kind of
ramping up your damage to knockout Lugia, things like that.

(03:42):
Or just going after potentiallyArcheops too so Cinchino's not
really a threat.
So yeah, it's kind of, yeah,I'm, I think I'm just done with
Lugia, unfortunately.
Any decks that you think arestill worth it?
Any of the Like, since welimited those three decks, is
there any deck that you're,like, very interested in a bomb?

(04:04):
Of, like, the remaining decks weneed to test?
Mm hmm.
Mm I think the one thing I waslike, really interested in, like
it's not from like a fringedeck, but it's like, of the big
five, the one that used to besticking out to me was actually
Raging Bull.
I was thinking like, why is thisdeck like, even like, considered
like, that good?
Like, and like, I, I was playingit again last night Liam was
watching me, but that deck,don't know, I don't know why I

(04:26):
stopped playing it, genuinely,like, I was playing it again
with the 4 stretcher build and Iwas like, Pokestop, the worst
Pokestop pre stretcher thatwould just like, made you want
to like, quit the game, like, ohman, I discarded like, Teal
Mask, Teal Mask Bundle orsomething, or something tragic,
right, or something even worsethan that.
Like, now it's like, oh, well, Ihave four stretchers.
Like, I use, like, thestretchers without even, like,
thinking.
Like, I'll stretcher for, like,a grass randomly to, like, Teal

(04:48):
Mask.
I'll stretcher for, like, thePokemon I Pokestop.
Like, I just use all, like, thestretchers and, like, I don't
know.
I feel like you don't even haveto think that hard.
Like, it's not like you have tocarefully, like, orchestrate how
these four stretchers are gonnabe used.
You just, like, see one and youplay it for, like, the best
thing in your discard.
And, it's it's lit.
I don't know.
I I really like Raging Boltagain.

Liam (05:06):
I've constantly said I would not play a low aura deck,
and that's the reason I wouldn'tplay Raging Bolt.
And what that kind of means is,I think you want to go into a
tournament where the expectationis, is that like, if things
happen as you predict, you winthe event.
And I think That's, That's, notthe case for a deck that can't
say, when I set up I win.

(05:28):
Right, like, when you play like,Aroma Gardevoir, right, that was
like what Henry Chao was saying.
Like, he's like, dude, when Iget my Curlius out on turn two,
I always win.
And like, I feel like being ableto say that is like, critical to
going X2 1 in an event, likeconsistently.
And like, like at least havingsome belief that like, you are,
you are in control of the game,where like, every time you like,

(05:50):
sequence better.
Your win percentages go up, asopposed to like, you know,
whenever Charizard's sequence isbetter, they're like, their
chances of getting to a loneRadzard board and just winning
go up.
And like, your win percentagesgo down.
Like, I feel like that, like,control over the game is
important.
That's what they refer to asagency.

Cam (06:10):
I, I mean, I, I understand that point.
But, I just, and, and maybethey, these decks don't end up
winning the whole tournament.
But, I just think there isalways a place for, like, super
aggressive decks at theinternational level.
They seem to do well.
Like, Quasigiex is, like, Ithink of that deck where I don't

(06:30):
even think many people werethinking about that card, and it
just, like, a very aggressiveversion with Marshadow, like,
ended up doing really well.
And I don't know, Raging Bullhas kind of been ramping up to
be that deck, and it's, like,the best it's been in a really
long time, and you get to play,like, two of the best cards from
the set, Peasantipity andNightly Stretcher, and one of
them is in a four of count,right, and you wouldn't even

(06:53):
play more than one Peasantipity,so you're, like, Playing the
best card from the newest set,and I know it's like, not the
best set, but I think like, ifyou get to play some of the best
cards from the newest sets, it'spretty good.
The deck's bound to be exciting.
So,

Liam (07:06):
right?

Cam (07:09):
I think my,

Liam (07:10):
I will say, I think a key distinction there, like, I think
when aggressive decks work best,or like, those like, these like,
hyper aggressive decks.
Decks like Raging Bolt is whenthey had, like, the light loose
Marshadow, right?
Like, that, that I think was,like, an era where the, the
aggressive decks were superstrong.
Because I think, I think itmeets that, like, you know,
you're proacti you'reproactively able to, like, take

(07:32):
control of the board.
And, like, if, if you draw welland you hit, like, the pieces
you need to hit every turn,you're, you put yourself in,
like, a high position or a highpercentage position to win.
As opposed to like, a good spotto win, which is like, what
raging bolt constantly feelslike, which is like, if I do
everything right, and everythinggoes right, I get to like, a 55

(07:54):
45 against the general meta.
Whereas when you play a decklike Gardevoir, like, if
everything goes right, you feellike you're just like, 100 0
into everything.
And of course that's like, a bitof an exaggeration, but like you
just feel like you can't

Cam (08:05):
yeah, but, I think, I think we're, I think you're
underestimating, well, I thinkyou're underestimating, like,
the consistency of which thingsgo right for Raging Bull and for
Gardevoir.
Like, and in a, I something thatKobe and I were talking about
just today, is I actually thinkyou not, maybe not you, but just

(08:27):
the general public might be,like, of worlds, might be
underestimating how many peopleare not willing to gentleman's.
And,

Liam (08:35):
Yeah, dude, I feel like you shouldn't approach this as
like, world's worlds becausethere were like, it was so easy
to get an invite

Cam (08:40):
no, no, no, no, no, no, it's, it's not, really that, but
I just think, like, I think alot of top players just assume
that people think like them.
And that, that their logic.
is the logic that everyone elseis using when they're making
their tournament run.
But the issue with that is thatthere are people who only end up

(09:03):
going to one or two worlds intheir life, and they really want
to make this one matter, and thefunny thing about this year is
that it doesn't matter if youmake it past day one.
You actually still end up on thefinal standings.
Before, you'd only end up on thefinal standings if you made it
to day two.
So how many players are going tosay no, I don't want a
Gentleman's.
Sorry, I'm sorry that I'm tyingand knocking you out of Day 2,

(09:25):
but like, I'd rather be 200ththan 300th.
And, I think that will actually,like, not just that, but to
general people who won't betrusting of General Agreements,
like, I think Gentleman'sAgreements might be lower unless
you're playing against a topplayer who, like, specifically
thinks that.
And I don't know, that should betaken into account, because if

(09:48):
you get stuck tying a lot withGuardian.
It's gonna hurt, like, it'sgonna hurt a lot, and I think
your matchup against Rago isbad, and I think Colt, like, has
none of those issues.
You're gonna finish three games.
I like, dude, I also think thecatcher list of Bolt is actually
like so apt at like pickingapart like small weaknesses,

(10:10):
like, I just think that like,when, when you're playing other
decks, like, it just doesn'tfeel like, like when you're
playing Zard, it doesn't feellike you get to like pick apart
like exactly their board all thetime, you just kind of like,
Sometimes you just have toswing, like, you don't really
get to, like, boss exactly whatyou want, cause, like, you only
get to search for one card aturn, and, like, I've just been
really liking the aspect of,like, I get to, like, spam
bundle as much as I want, causeI have four stretcher, and I

(10:32):
have, like, catchers, and, like,I don't know, it does feel like
a high roll deck, and, like, I'mnot saying I'm gonna play bold,
that's, like, not the point I'mmaking, it's just that I think
that, somehow, I think I justran really cold to the deck for
a bit, and I just, like,Literally stop touching it.
I think it was like, I think weplayed one Conquest series where
Bolt got like 4 0'd.
And I was like, alright, I'mliterally never playing this
deck again.
But I think that was a, anoverreaction.

(10:54):
I think the deck's actuallybetter than I thought.
It was just a pretty pretty sadseries for the deck.
Yeah, I think that also happenedwith Liam and I's testing, like,
the deck does have just coldstreaks where we played Zard,
and I, like, I still think thematch was 50 50, and then, like,
he just 5 0'd me, and then thatfelt terrible.
And then I think we played Ifyou remove that set, I think we

(11:14):
ended up going, like, relativelyeven after that.
And I'm sure you'll hit a hotstreak where you're just like,
Oh, I'm gonna actually hitbetter than that too, right?
It's just one of those decksthat, like, depending on where
you catch it, like, will kindYeah, like, if it's a true coin
flip, you can actually expectthat, like, there's gonna be
mega streaks.
Like, any, like, if you're trulyflipping a coin over and over

(11:35):
and over again, like, you're notsupposed to go heads, tails,
heads, tails.
You're supposed to go, like,heads, heads, heads, heads,
tails, tails, tails, tails,tails, like, heads, tails,
heads, tails, like, it'ssupposed to be pretty varied.
Like, it's pretty hard for evena human to, like, ever, like,
conceptualize, like, what a coinflip's, like, actually supposed
to look like in, like, a hundredin a row, right?
So, it's like Pretty, prettyexpected that, like, sometimes
you'll just get 5 0'd if thematchup's 50 50.

(11:56):
I, but, like, it's justfrustrating, right?
When that happens as bull, it's,like, the most frustrating deck,
I feel like, when you're drawingkind of bad.
Or you're just, like, flippingtails on the super important
catchers.
Like, some catchers are moreimportant than others, right?
When you're playing through thegame.
Yeah, sometimes there's acatcher that's, like, that's got
a follow up catcher, you know?
And then you flip heads on thefirst one, and you're like, oh,

(12:18):
whatever.
Nice.
Guess I'm lucky.
Heh heh.
When you decide to flip heads,and it's not even you deciding,
it's when you, like, happen toroll heads, it's like, super,
and that's what makes it feel sobad, too, at the same time.
Because you feel like yousequenced right, you did
everything you could, and at theend of the day, it was slightly
out of your control, right?

(12:38):
You know one thing I've beentrying to put some thought into
though?
I think the matchup againstBlocklax is like, pretty
unfixable.
I was like, if I could fix thislike, Raging Bull vs.
Blocklax matchup, I wouldactually be way more inclined to
think about the deck more.
But, the problem is like, I feellike people are not talking
about Handheld Fan enough, man.
Like, there's like, nocounterplay to Handheld Fan.
Like, eventually you have tobench the Sandy Shocks, and then

(12:59):
the Snorlax will just HandheldFan, and Sandy Shocks doesn't
hit for weakness.
And they just put move yourfighting energies onto something
random.
Like, you can switch cart and,like, discard them all with
Raging Bull.
You only got, like, two or threeswitch carts, and it just, like,
it just gets out of control,like, very fast.
Like, there's just, like, reallynothing you can do against this
Handheld Fan.
And Catcher of Sandy Shocks,over and over and over again.
Question for you, what if theyalso played Mew?

(13:22):
Do you, and they used Mew, andso they can one shot Snorlax, I
believe, by copying an attack.
Yeah, and they can use it like,the point is that it's your
Mimikyu and your Yeah, I thoughtabout that too.
I I just don't like Mew becauseit's like, not an ancient
Pokemon, and like I'm alreadyplaying the Pheasantipidae, and
Greninja, and Squawk.

(13:43):
So it's like, it feels like toomuch, and I don't think I
restart that often with thedeck.
like,

Liam (13:47):
you also don't have that

Cam (13:48):
too big.
I keep Pokestopping into

Liam (13:50):
pressure up when you're

Cam (13:51):
too many cards.
Like, it doesn't feel like I getenough restarts.

Liam (13:54):
So, and like, the, the Mute takes like, three manual
attachments.
It's like, not very easy to getinto.

Cam (13:59):
that's true.

Liam (14:00):
Into the Mimikyu, yeah.
It also three hits into cape,right?
Which is like pretty bad.
Yeah.
Yeah.

Cam (14:09):
And yeah, exactly.
If Mimikyu caped, it's prettytough.
And I think Starlox should beplaying One Mist, but that's
like a personal preference.
Personal thing of mine.
Not sure if that's going to be athing that everyone's playing.
I guess I guess one question Ihad for you guys was like, With
Draugr, like, is, like, are wererunning Radsart or not?
I think it's a, I think it's ano, unless, unless the Radsart's
expressly for, like, Mimikyumiss.

(14:31):
Then, like, I'm down with it.
Right now, I think I would startout right now as no.
I typically try to start outwith decks, like, that are a bit
more consistent to probably cutit for consistency slot, but
then as we test more, if it'ssomething that seems to come up
more, it might find its way backin, but, I'm not sure if we're

(14:51):
quite there yet in our owntesting, maybe other people are,
but yeah, that's kind of how Ifeel about that one.
Just that deck is so I don'tthink you need it a lot of the
time, this deck just runsthrough everything.

Liam (15:05):
Yeah, Drago goes insane.
Goes insane.
I wouldn't play the right card.

Cam (15:13):
Maybe if it like, specifically fixes oh, sorry, go
ahead.
Oh, I was gonna say, you cannever, like, have a Radzard
board.
Like, you can, like, always, ifyou get to two, it's hard to
tackle that on three, like, it'sjust not happening,
realistically.
And, like, at two, like, they'lljust gust around it, like, it's
pointless.
They'll just kill somethingrandom on the bench, like, I

(15:33):
think it's a pretty, pretty badattacker.
So, I think it's really just forMimikyu Mist.
well you just answered myquestion, because I was thinking
if it fixes Bold, but then like,they just bundle around it.
So, right, so it doesn't evenmatter that much.
You'd have to play two, you'dhave to play a Cleffa or
something, some random nonsenseto like, not get bundled.

(15:53):
But that's, that's so stupid,we're not doing that.
Have you seen the list?
There has been lists withClefla, do you like that, or no?
And it sounds like no, I'massuming.
I'm a Cleffa hater, to behonest.

Liam (16:05):
Not at all, bro.

Cam (16:06):
In that deck at least.
I think Cleffa has like a lot ofapplication maybe still, in
Zard.
But like, I don't like that itdies to the monkey, I don't like
it against Dragonfall decks, Idon't, it's obviously terrible,
it's like Block Lax, any kind oflock deck, like, I don't know, I
think Cleffa was really, reallygood in that span of time when
we were all like starting toplay it, and then it's, it's

(16:28):
kind of bad again.

Liam (16:30):
Picked off too easy right now.

Cam (16:33):
Yeah, it feels terrible, like they're not even working
for it, like at least before,like, when they killed Cleffa,
you felt, you felt pretty good,it didn't ma it didn't matter
because that was their attack,right?

Liam (16:42):
It also feels like the alternative is, is pretty good,
right?
Like you the, the Poffin bibengine is not like the only
thing that makes Zard workanymore, right?
Because you have the Fez, youcan lean on the nest balls
heavier,

Cam (16:54):
I personally think you should just play both.
You should just play all ofthem.
Like, everything but Cleffa.
Like, you should play the PoffinBib, and the Nest Balls, and the
Fezendipity Rodom.
Like, just play everything.

Liam (17:05):
yeah, I mean, I, I assume you're just going like 3 3
Poffin nest and then 1 1 bib,yeah.

Cam (17:10):
Yeah.
And the Fez.
I think Lumi might be kinda bad.
I think Lumi's probably theworst part of that engine.
I'm, like, very close to cuttingthat card and just playing
Rodom.

Liam (17:19):
Dude, Lumi's crazy, bro.

Cam (17:23):
I think Lumi, like, okay, Lumi feels good when you play
it, right?
But, like The permanent, like,staying on your bench has just
it's just felt very annoying.
Like, you already are, like, solimited, because you want to,
like, Fez, you want to have theBib, you want to have, like, the
Pidgeot, obviously, you want,like, a Charmeleon.

Liam (17:39):
But, also for, yeah.
F first of all, it's, it's agood, it's a good early game
card.
Right?
Of course.
It turns your ultra balls fromlike, nothing starts into like
amazing full boards.
Right.
Um, but not only that, it's alsolike it's a late game out or
it's, it is like a massive lategame out.
into, into bosses, into turros,into, you know, whatever

(18:03):
supporters you need to keepgoing and like particularly in
matchups where it's like hard tolike consistently stream Zards
in the mid game, like somethinglike Raging Bolt or even like
Drago, like with the Ogre Pawns,where like, you know, you're
having to stream pieces insuccession.
Being able to draw like intoLumi or Lumi out and then spawn
in like basically every cardthat you need is, is insane.

(18:26):
I mean, alright.

Cam (18:28):
mean, there's a reason I haven't cut the Lumi yet.
I just, like, that was, like, myconsideration.
I think it's, like, the worstpart It's, like, the worst part
of that engine, though, becauseI think Fez kind of it does the
part of the job that you'redescribing, like, It doesn't
fully do it, obviously, butlike, that's its role, and then
like, I'm playing enough Nessballs that I consistently see
the Rotom early, and then Ilike, get an Arven, and then I

(18:50):
feel like, at this point, like,I don't need Lumi early, can I
have Fez for that late game Fezbib for that late game coverage,
like, I don't know, I get whatyou're saying, and like, there's
a re obviously there's a reasonwhy I like Lumi's good, and
like, I've had it in the deck,but, I'm, I think

Liam (19:06):
I know what you're saying as

Cam (19:07):
too attached to

Liam (19:08):
like very vulnerable.
That's why I've cut it from thecurrent Pidget list and like,
switched more into the like,Lax, Nest Ball, Rotom, Engine,
right?

Cam (19:17):
yeah,

Liam (19:18):
Because, yeah, like, it feels like it becomes really
easy for decks to take sixprizes once the Lumi hits the
board.
Yeah,

Cam (19:26):
yeah exactly, and like, I think I always try to challenge
cards that like feel good, likeLumi, like when you need it,
feels good, sure, but like, youcan't, like, you only have 60
cards, like I don't, if everysingle card, like, feels good,
you

Liam (19:40):
from the feel good is very important, right?

Cam (19:44):
yeah,

Liam (19:44):
I think getting to what you actually need and nothing
else.
That's it's really good.

Cam (19:49):
You know what deck I've been, like, thinking about a
lot, or, like, playing, is I'vebeen playing Block Lax, and I'm
trying to think, like, what theoptimal A Spec is, cause I was
actually playing a little bit ofthe Iron Hands, or the Iron
Thorns matchup, like, you know,like, just wanted to get a
couple games in, just to see,and, like, it was actually
looking pretty good forobviously be considered part of
I, like, I'm gonna play somemore games, but the Seeker box

(20:09):
has been, like, just crazy,like, you're under, like, Iron
Thorns, like, we're testing outSquad Thorns, and, like, you're
under that, like, Spiritomb typelock, essentially, and, like, it
didn't feel bad at all, because,like, I just, like, if I hit an
Arvan, I hit I hit my Seekerbox, and then if I ever hit,
like, one of the three, like,crucial pieces, like, one of the
two Colognes of the Vacuum, Iliterally win the game, like, on
the spot, right?
So then, I was, I was actuallyfinding the matchup to be, like,

(20:32):
fairly pleasant in the, like,five games I played.
I didn't think it was like asbad as I was being told it was,
you know?

Liam (20:39):
found that match sucks.

Cam (20:43):
Like, were you playing, like, were you playing the list
that we talked about, with thesecret box and like the two
Mimikyus, everything?

Liam (20:49):
I mean, I've played this with like Not like a constant
list.
I didn't have like a dedicatedsession.
I just hit it on the ladder andstuff, you know.
On, on both sides.
And, yeah, it is I find it'spretty easy for Thorns.
Also because they can, like, precommit the VAC.
Like, as soon as you put thetool down, they just,

Cam (21:06):
Oh, I never

Liam (21:06):
go

Cam (21:06):
the cape

Liam (21:07):
VAC.

Cam (21:08):
I don't think you do

Liam (21:08):
yeah,

Cam (21:09):
You, literally are not allowed to, right?

Liam (21:11):
yeah, then they just go, like, you know, like, Arvin,
Cologne, City.
And if you don't have theMimikyu active, like, sometimes
that's, like, okay.
But it usually feels like you'rejust, like, giving up prizes,
like, you know, every otherturn.
Maybe, like, every three turns,right?
Like I don't know, I didn't feellike I had a great way to slow
them down.
And like, I didn't have a greatway to stream, like, Sistar's
Eerie either to make progress

Cam (21:32):
Maybe I've been getting lucky, like, maybe I've been
like over realizing, like, whatI'm expecting.
I, I, I'm planning on playing 20games tonight.
Like, to finish my, like, 15,like, playing another 15.
I went 2 and 3, I'll just tellyou.
Like, as in, like, Thorns won 2,and Starlocks won 3.
And, maybe I was getting alittle lucky, but, like, I don't
know, these sisters just have tohit one card, or, like, and you
can't ever take a knockoutwithout using city, right?

(21:55):
So, I was playing four cities inthe Thorns list, so I've been
playing them down, like,whenever I see them.
But, like, I'd sometimes, like,after the secret box bumps the
first city, I'd sometimes getinto, like, a drought, and it's,
like, so awkward, like, orsometimes I'd have the situation
where it's, like I'm waiting tohit my city, or waiting to hit
my Cologne, so that I can like,do the combo, like, oh, I can
like, city, Cologne, VAC, andlike, whenever I see a city, I

(22:15):
just play it, and then therewere some situations where I'd
be like, there was the Luxcapeon, and I I'd had the Cologne,
but I didn't even have it out tothe the vacuum, so I was like, I
can't I literally can't rip ityet, so I'd have to wait, and
like,

Liam (22:27):
How, How, aggressively are you benching down, like, extra
bench Pokemon in the matchup?
Because I found I was doing itpretty aggressively with
Snorlax, and that meant that,like, that gave them, like,
leeway in not having toconstantly find city.
I also found I wasn't bumpingthe city very often.
Like, once I play the city, likeIt's sat there for like a
pretty, pretty long time,usually.

Cam (22:47):
I I managed to bump two cities a game, I think, pretty
consistently, like, I justSylene, I played two Sylene, I
just ripped one, so, yeah.
Like, I box for the firstArtisan to bump the city, right?
And then I Silene, and I, like,grab Artisan, and I bump it,
and, like, that sometimes just,like, slows them, like, a huge
amount.
Especially because they don'twant to just it just feels bad
as Thorns, like, some you don'twant to always just, like, sit

(23:10):
there with, like, waiting for acombo.
Like, sometimes you do want toresearch, and sometimes your
research hands, like, have anextra city in them, right?
That's especially like, onegame, I was like, I'm not gonna
sit here and wait forever.
I researched away a city, I hadone left in deck, And then the
Snorlax just, like, Syleene hiton Artisan, bumped it, and there
was one city left in deck andThorns could not find it for,
like, so long that, like,eventually the Sisters caught,

(23:31):
like, the Cologne, or the VAC,and it was over.
And, like, yeah, you could takethe knockout without city, but
then I was like, all Snorlax hasto do in this spot, if you take
the knockout without city, is,like, Rescue Stretcher and I win
the game, right?
And I had a a backup Snorlax onthe bench with a tool, so, like,
any boss didn't matter, becauseI was just Penny, right?
So, like, it's not like theycould cologne and win the game.
They couldn't boss take a

Liam (23:52):
maybe if you're playing like the double Mimikyu
stretcher, it might be like abetter matchup.

Cam (23:57):
Yeah, that's I mean, of course, I'm playing all that.
And and Yelchier, too.
To, like, recover it, too, ifyou have to.
It's not ideal, but Thestretchers look the best way.
The A S tier S I don't know.
I imagine it felt fine.
I think if the if the Ra theThorns played a third cologne or
a second VAC, it would be verybad.
Like, unplayable bad.

(24:17):
But having the exactly enoughstuff is like, very sus for them
to win.
I'll report back though, I'llreport back after playing,
finishing the 20.
I'll let you know.

Liam (24:30):
It's interesting.

Cam (24:31):
Oh yeah, we can talk, we can talk about something else,
we can talk about anything.
was doing really well yesterday.
I think we've been prettyheavily set, or heavily using
Reset Stamp, and I think most ofus feel like that's correct.
But I was reading stuff onIvanov's article.
That he posts, I think, on AlephShemansky's whatever you call

(24:54):
it, sub stack.
And I kind of skimmed the listthe first time and just saw the
Hero's Cape and then I broughtit up to you guys.
And then I kind of went backlast night and read kind of his
reasoning behind it and it seemspretty good.
Now, obviously, we don't havethe recent stamp, which has been
so powerful for us, but itpotentially gives you outs to

(25:16):
Regidra.

Liam (25:16):
reasoning?
Was it just the you know, juststretching, you know, some
critical stuff?
Or like, I guess, was it theexamples that you

Cam (25:23):
Yeah, it was just examples I messaged.
Like, it seems like it couldgive you a chance against Drago,
and it's felt miserable againstDrago up until this point.
And so it's just one of thosethings where, if it's better
against Drago, like, at thispoint, because Drago's so
popular, right, it might beworth it to play it.

Liam (25:44):
No, yeah, I rock with it.
I actually think we should cutthe stamp.
I don't know why.
Like, we've literally, I feellike for like two weeks, we've
been like, Oh my god, bro, like,this stamp sucks, but like, you
have to play it because it's astamp.
It's so good.
But like, why is it every time Isee the card it sucks, bro?
I, we should play a different

Cam (26:00):
I don't know if it's, I don't know if it sucks, I think
it's alright, I think it'spretty solid, it's just like,
into Drago,

Liam (26:06):
just goes mid.
It just goes mid.
I feel like, I, I feel like I'mlike constantly complaining
about how the card is like, notgood, like, concretely and like.
I guess that Guardi matchup,because that's all I play, but
yeah, it sucks against Guardi.

Cam (26:17):
And it stinks against Drago, I wanted to ask you like,
Do you think if you're playingGuardi, like, do you think it's
even playable if they like, theheroes keep their Charmeleon?
Like, that seems so, so cool.
Frustrating.
Like, you can CC kill it withGuardi, but like, whenever you
take a prize with Guardi, it,like, feels very bad.
Like, your Ionos are permanentlyone less, and like, I don't
know, like, isn't the Heroescapereally cracked in that matchup?

(26:39):
Like, I didn't actually, like,fully put my, like, thumb to it
until, like, we started talkingabout it again, but yeah, I
don't know.
I want to test that.
That actually is, like,

Liam (26:46):
is probably kind of hard to deal with, right?
I don't know, maybe, hmm, hmm.

Cam (26:52):
I mean, you do have the out of, like, you can, like, CC if
they're out of candies.
You can CC To like, devo it, ifthey're out of

Liam (27:00):
like, you want to push for the board wipe when you can,
right?

Cam (27:03):
Yeah, yeah, of course.

Liam (27:05):
I think, I think actually though, like, you could actually
just maybe get enough damage.
It's like I feel like the reasonthe Charmeleon is kind of so
hard to deal with is because youdon't want to go CC Flutter hit
Because they just like super onit back, right?
But I think if you can justlike, you know, CC Flutter, move
60 and now it has like 150 on itThat's like a good turn Like

Cam (27:26):
Yeah, yeah, it doesn't seem like, it doesn't seem like
you're you're auto losing toHeroescape.

Liam (27:30):
you a little but I feel like the matchup is like You
know, at least when you watchHenry cook like, you know, we
got room to spare, you know

Cam (27:38):
The other alternative for the Charizard deck is just
playing Prime Fetch again, likeliterally just riffing towards
exact EUIC 60, just run it

Liam (27:44):
that actually seems like really good, bro, because We
never had access to CC, CCCharmeleon with the Flutter, but
CC Charmeleon with the Flutteris like, actually just like,
brutal.
Because the, the thing doesn'tevolve, like you get a Flutter
hit on a Charmeleon piece, as toretreat.
Maybe the Zari can preload itpretty consistently, but that is

Cam (28:05):
Oh wait, I understand what you're saying now, yes, it is
very difficult to prelo to like,to get the You have to hit the
Cheren, you have to Cheren, orBoss, right?
It's not that hard, you can justBoss

Liam (28:15):
that bad, like you lose the cape, but Turo's not that
bad too.
But, that's like pretty good forthem if you have to hit the
Flutter that turn,

Cam (28:21):
Especially if you're using

Liam (28:22):
I guess you could go

Cam (28:23):
their Boss first.

Liam (28:24):
you could go Boss RDX, yeah,

Cam (28:25):
No, no, but you can you can stretch the Boss first with
Mimikyu and then go for thatplay.
Potentially.

Liam (28:30):
Yeah, sure, sure.

Cam (28:33):
I think Primecatcher though, like, I do think that,
like, I guess like, we playedwhat, like, only, we only got to
play three games, and only, inone of them, I got completely
cooked because I couldn'tRetreat Bib.
But, like, not even just basedon that, I've been thinking for
a while, like, I, like, I wantto play, like, Primecatcher in
my deck.
Like, I like Primecatcher a lotin Zard.
It's, like, the mobility, like,I've been, I'm playing Cheren,

(28:54):
just so I can switch out ofMonkey.
Like, I want Primecatcher.

Liam (28:59):
Yeah, dude, I feel like the the stance went good in mid.
I think it's also because, like,we're in a format with Fez, so,
like, the disruption just feels,like, a lot worse.
I also feel like you're, like,racing a lot more often, right?
Against, like, Drago and Bolt,you're, like, you're kind of
just racing independently,right?

Cam (29:13):
Of the big five, you know what the best stamp deck is,
unironically?
Bolt.
For sure.
so, yeah, I was wondering if wewere going to talk about that
earlier.
I didn't know if we wanted tobring it up, because you were
talking about, like, the reasonthat the aggressive decks have
been so good in the past isbecause of Disruption, and we've
been playing Unfair Bolt.
I didn't know if we wanted toshare that.

(29:34):
But, yeah,

Liam (29:35):
mean, it's specifically disruption on like, turn one
before they do

Cam (29:40):
you have Iono, you have Palpatine, but I'm just saying,
it's like, that's what we'retalking about.
It's literally let loose, right?
It's a let loose where it's noton turn one, it's on turn two.
card okay.
The thing that is so ridiculousabout Unfair Stamp is that,
like, Reaching Bull just didsome heinous thing to you.
Like, they just like, took a,like, catch your, like, the
exact Pokemon they wanted tokill, knocked you out, they're

(30:01):
like five minutes on board, andall you did was like, fight back
a little bit.
You took, you took one knockoutback.
And then all of a sudden, theyget to like, play an item that
draws them, like, Shuffle Drawsfive, puts you at two, then they
catch you like, what you want,or they like, boss, or they
catch you and then sawdust, andtheir board is like, they didn't
even like, they didn't pay anycost to put you to two cards.
They just like, They could,they, the whole time they were

(30:23):
playing how they wanted, andthen they just like, happened to
Unfair Stamp you on top.
Like, everything else, like,kind of, like, when you're
playing it in Guardi, right,like, you're like, already, by
the time, like, Unfair Stamp'sgood, like, I don't know, like,
most of the time I can just Ionathem, it's not that, not that
good, like, I'm Ioning them to 4versus Unfair Stamping them to
5, er, to 2, but like, I don'tknow, it seems fine, right?
Or like, in Zard.

Liam (30:44):
like, really coming from like, all the crazy things you
do on board with Guardi, right?
As

Cam (30:48):
Yeah, exactly.

Liam (30:49):
the hand, Just, the light reset is fine.

Cam (30:53):
Exactly.
Like, the Iona to 4 and thenkill the exact the Pokemon you
want via, like, Monkey and Devois, like, is just cracked
enough.
Like, you don't need Stamp.
Stamp's And the thing with this,the reason Stamp is so good and
bold, is because it's a race.
And it's because it's the mostaggressive deck.
And like, a lot of other decks,because they're not basic based,

(31:14):
like, it hurts them a lot more.
Then it would hurt Bolt, right?
Because Bolt, we've all felt it,when Bolt gets Unfair Stamp, or
Ionid Liking, it just like,draws still 10 cards, because of
Pokestop, Greninja, Fezendipity,if you hit the Sadas, you hit
Energy for Teal Mask, like, soit doesn't really go good

(31:34):
against that deck.
It doesn't feel like they'regetting lucky.
It feels like this is, like, theexpected outcome.
Like, when you I when you stamp

Liam (31:41):
think you can count on Bolt to get a knockout on
whatever they want every singleturn of the game.
That's like,

Cam (31:47):
So, it's just interesting, like, yeah, that, yeah, it is,
he's Bon is right, like, it'sjust been interesting to see
that Unfair Stamp has been bestin Bolt, and it's kind of, Maybe
it isn't as good in Charizard aswe think, and it's time to start
trying other stuff while westill have time, because, It
just feels so intuitive, like,oh, I'm playing 4 Arven and my
Guardian and my Charizard, Ishould play Unfair Stamp, for
sure, right?

(32:08):
Cause like, you know, Arven I'mplaying anyways for consistency,
and now I can, like, Roxannewith it, but it just, like,
doesn't feel like that when youplay it, like, it just isn't
that good.

Liam (32:18):
I think it hit harder like before like, Drago, because I
feel like the format was slower.

Cam (32:24):
yeah.

Liam (32:25):
you had like a little bit more time.
Like, you weren't like,solitaring as hard, kind of, you
know?

Cam (32:31):
Yeah, I guess that's the other thing about Bolt, right?
It's the only duck that doesn'thave an issue with Drago, so it
like, doesn't really have toworry about it like all the
other ducks do, and you can justplay weird things like Unfair
Stamp and Pokemon Catchers andjust catch people slipping.
Yeah, because Drago is like, themost like, unfair stamp

(32:51):
resistant deck.
Like, it's, like, if they havetheir Legacy Star up, it doesn't
matter what you do to theirhead.
Like, it's totally fine.
Like, they're gonna, they'regonna have the Drago attack.
Like, I think people, like, atfirst were just using Drago,
like the, like the V Star, to,like, attack, like, very fast,
and, like, try to get, like, acatcher or something.
Like, something, like, somethingvery flippant.
But like, once like, I don'tknow, once it became like, more

(33:12):
and more apparent that you'rejust like, chill with, with the,
with the Draugr, like, and the VStar, it just, I don't know.
I was never

Liam (33:19):
Drago, when they have their V Star, it's just like the
scariest thing in the world.
It doesn't even matter if theylike haven't attacked yet, like
the deck is just terrifyingcause like, they have access to
literally like the best attacksin the game every single turn
and like, if you know they'renot gonna run out of gas, like
there's no way they don't justrun you over.
You know?

Cam (33:35):
Yeah.
Curem like, broke the deck.
Curem is actually like, reallyinsane.

Liam (33:40):
Yeah.

Cam (33:41):
I wonder, though, like, I just really want to play, like,
Mantine and, like, everything.
Like, I just, I'm fiending to,like, bench their Curem.
Like, they're all cutting theirTur like, their Turos Turos and,
like, Pennies, and, like, I justwant to catch that Curem so bad
and just CC it over and overagain.

Liam (34:00):
Yeah, bro.
It's like actually so hard tobeat Drago.
Yeah.
I don't know what to do.
It has me completely lost.

Cam (34:07):
I mean, there's always the nuclear option if they don't
play Radzard.
Like, like, you can just keepadding Mimikyus and Mists until,
like, we can't lose.
We're just playing Quad Mimikyu.
Yeah.
Four Mimikyu, four Mists.
Rip it.

Liam (34:19):
I don't even know how good that is because like if they hit
like an ideal start and they'reable to like conserve their
resources while hitting like aturn one, turn two attack, like
it still feels like you'reprobably like not amazing,
right?
Like,

Cam (34:32):
no, no, that's like, you're, no, no, you're, you're
chilling.
You're gonna

Liam (34:36):
right?
You're coping so hard right now.
I

Cam (34:39):
depends, if you're playing like Pidget, like, you're, no,
you're, I'm not coping, like,you're just gonna win.
If you're playing 3 anythingless than that and you could
lose.
Potentially.

Liam (34:49):
yeah, like, what if you're playing Mimikyu, er, Pidget,
with three Mimikyu, three Myst,and like, turn one, you go like,
Rotom Pidgey, and then they golike, oh, like, Prime catch your
Rotom, knock out your Pidgey,and you like, you know, you miss
the bravery charm for whateverreason, and now you just lose
the game.

Cam (35:06):
I think you might not even be able, you might not even have
to play that fast if you'reactually playing the
inevitability.
You might just be able to justgo like, I'll just Arvan

Liam (35:12):
Dude, but you have to find the find the Myst energy, bro.

Cam (35:15):
Yeah, yeah, I think you use the Road of Sealstone to find
the first one and then like youhope you can get like just
enough time to like find theother two like manually.
It's not like ideal.
You would rather just page outfor it, obviously.
I'm just saying if your hand'slike not good enough, you might
have to go slower.

Liam (35:30):
yeah, no, I, I know what you mean, but like, okay.
I feel like the fact thatthey're like, they still have
like, routes to win in thosegames is like, and it's like,
like realistic routes to win,it's like, the deck is both
like, incredibly fast and hasaccess to like, the strongest
attacks.
Like, usually decks have to makesome sort of, some sort of

(35:53):
compensation somewhere, and theyhave like, a late game engine,
or like, you know, a late gameability to just spawn in the
cards they need to win.
Like, the deck just feels likeit has like, literally no
weaknesses.
I don't,

Cam (36:05):
No pun intended,

Liam (36:05):
I like the, the, practical weakness is like raging bolt,
but yeah, like there's no,there's nothing like
structurally wrong with the deckat all.
Like, it's just, it's like thereliance on items is maybe like
the biggest weakness.

Cam (36:23):
the fact that you can cure him away monkey is like the most
annoying part.
If you couldn't cure a monkey, Ithink like Guardian would have
like, Very real chances despite

Liam (36:30):
Yeah, no, for sure.
There's no way you can stop itfrom taking three prizes, right?
Every time they hit the Q arm,it's

Cam (36:34):
yeah, it's just ridiculous.

Liam (36:36):
every time.
Mm-Hmm.

Cam (36:38):
dude, the most disgusting consideration that I've like,
maybe, like toyed with is justplaying two Manaphy.
It sucks, it's so gross, butmaybe, maybe it's, like, at some
point, like, we do, somethinghas to get, like, we do have to
beat that matchup, right,somehow.
So.
I don't know, I hate I hatesolutions like that, like, I'm

(36:59):
the first one to say that's likea disgusting solution, but like,
it feels pretty hopeless if wedon't if we don't fix something
do something drastic like that,

Liam (37:07):
I think if we're gonna come into that strategy too, we
have to re evaluate the cut key,right?

Cam (37:11):
Yeah, we may not be able to play it, still.

Liam (37:14):
mean like maybe, maybe it's fine, but yeah,

Cam (37:18):
The Klefki has like other applications though, like, just
having Poffin into Klefki islike, so lit.

Liam (37:22):
you know, you can tell yourself you'll hit the tarot,
right?
But

Cam (37:27):
Yeah, yeah, of course.
Well, no, if you're playing asDraugr, you just don't even
bother with the Klefki, but likein every other

Liam (37:32):
could also like opt not to hit the clef key, but you're
also like probably throwing itdown blind.
And that's not huge, but youknow, it's a factor.

Cam (37:41):
Sure, but like, it's not like, just because, like, you're
playing Double Manaphy, thatKlefki becomes any less good.
Like, if you do play it downblind, like, often, that does
still cripple them, like it didbefore.
And then, you get there.
I don't

Liam (37:53):
know, but you know, like, it just means you have to hit
the tarot, right?

Cam (37:58):
Yeah, not ideal, not ideal stuff, for sure.
I think What do you think islike the most effective method
though?
Like, do you try to like, stuffDraugr with the Clefki, or do
you think like, we just try towin inevitably with like, the
two Manaphy?
Like, which, like, which one islike, speaking to you, you know?
Like, which one's like, reallylike, jumps out?
Because I don't

Liam (38:16):
for the Manaphy more.
I feel like yeah, I like playingfor the Manaphy a lot more, like
I feel like, because I think ifyou If you can stop the Cheren
play, and you hit turn two, orlike, the Curlias before they
hit their first attack, or liketheir first Polt you always win,
right?
So yeah, I like,

Cam (38:35):
And like, at the end of the day, the matchup was hella good
in the last format.
It was great in the last format.
So if we can like, replicatethat somehow

Liam (38:43):
just have to stop the Cheren, right, and then, and
like, the double Manaphy feelslike the most independent way to
do it, as opposed to like, oh,I'm gonna stop the Cheren by
like, Shoving Klefki and hopingthey can't play the game, you
know, like which is not bad itreally does hit Drago like
seriously hard, but You know,I'd like to do it in the the

(39:03):
more independent inevitability,right?
Yeah,

Cam (39:10):
I was like, what I was gonna get at is like, it sucks
with the Klefki, cause like, atsome point you're gonna have to
play the game, and like, theycan sack you after that point.
And like, a lot of times, evenwhen I do stuff them a little
bit with the Klefki, like, they,they like,

Liam (39:22):
no if their hand is if their hand is good the the
Klefki like doesn't matter atall You know Like you have to be
like Klefki stopping squat kindof like this or like not exactly
that but like You to reallyprevent them from like, actually
playing the game, not just like,turning off the Ogre Pawns, you
know?

Cam (39:39):
Yeah.
Like, it's not a yeah, exactly.
Klefki is not meant to, like itis obviously trying to stop
their energy acceleration, butit's like, that that effect is
like, not that relevant becauseyou're going so slow with Klefki
that it doesn't like, you'regonna lose, like like, they're
gonna, like, boss Kirram Manaphyand, like, take or, boss sorry,
boss, like, Kirram, like, withKlefki to turn off Manaphy,
like, at some point.

(40:00):
So, like, you need to, like,

Liam (40:01):
a major board compensation on the race, right?
Like, if they're able to playthe game, you're like, you're
cucked.

Cam (40:08):
If we do play no clefki though, we do have to put the
second flutter back in.
So at that point, like, maybe wejust keep the clefki in.
I'm not sure.
Like, I want to play two of theability lock in the active cards
minimum, if not three, right?
So it's hard.
It's hard to, like, fit allthese things and, like, figure
out

Liam (40:24):
yeah, I'm definitely not gonna just play one Flutter,
right?
That's

Cam (40:28):
Sounds bad.
Sounds terrible.
I'm just accepting bundle.
You know, actually, speaking ofwhich, I think in one of our
meetings earlier, Shinoi, we didtalk about, like, Lostbox being
kind of dead, but actuallythought about it more, and I was
kind of seeing, like, CameronKawasaki's point more, and it
was like, How can Lostbox reallybe that dead?
Like, the worst case scenario,like, you could just jam, like,

(40:49):
three to four Cologne in there,like, how, how dead can this
deck be?
Like, it was like, it won NAIC,nothing really, like, cooked it,

Liam (40:58):
what I'm most confused about is how on earth do you
beat Draco?
Like,

Cam (41:03):
Like, you're playing, you want to play four Cologne in a
deck that, like, played four ofeverything else to be super
consistent, and like, you'recutting, like, that's when
you're like, okay, I'll cut.
And it doesn't really matter,like, oh, maybe I'll cut a Super
Rod, I'll cut a Pokestop, and itjust like, hurts your
consistency, and you're going toplay a card that's literally
only good against what,Gardevoir?

(41:24):
I mean, like, you still havethe, the, the guardi out.
You hit them with the thorns,and you just hope.
Pure hope.
That's bad, it sounds bad.
I, I understand.
I, is there, like, an efficientway to kill the baby Draugr?
Like, maybe you can, like, outturbo them?
Like, you hit them with theRoaring Moon?
That, that does, that alsosounds kinda bad.

(41:46):
I'm not gonna, like, not gonnafront, but.
I guess like, yeah, I guess yourmain out is Thorns.

Liam (41:53):
And dude, also, like, they get to like, prime Cologne, raw
Kiramu.
Like,

Cam (41:58):
They're not doing that.
I don't think that's correct todo that.

Liam (42:02):
you don't think so?

Cam (42:04):
No, because let's say you do go for that play, and then
they just Pal Pad, and theylike, the Curem's active, and
they just like, sableye iota orsomething.
I don't know.
I'm not sure if you're supposedto do that.

Liam (42:14):
I don't know, dude.
I,

Cam (42:15):
You can Regidrago and get the Curem back later if you
want.
Like, you can do that later.

Liam (42:20):
the thing is, like, that play could, like, honestly,
like, feasibly happen on, like,turn two, turn three, and they
hold the V Star.

Cam (42:29):
Yeah, because you could just like, not do it the other
could just use Why not discardthe Curem and hold the You could
just use, like, Dragapult early,right?

Liam (42:35):
It's because you only lose one energy.
Like, you get to do that playand have, like, a fully loaded V
Star.
Drago on the bench.

Cam (42:41):
no, I understand that.
I understand the concept.
I'm just saying that like, Idon't know.
I think it's like, I think it'slike so winning if you get to
play the game.
So like, there's like, you'rekind of splitting hairs how you
want to go about winning.
Like, you can just play Dragoand Dragapult them and then
Curem at some point and win aswell.

Liam (42:57):
yeah, I agree with that.
Like, the Drago pull, like, youdon't have a good way through
the Drago as LZB, right?

Cam (43:02):
Yeah, exactly.
So like, LGB literally has torip the Thorns and just pray.
And like that's their out Not agreat out.
Not a great out.
Sure.
I was more thinking in thecontext of just like, how can a
deck that like, that's so goodat NAIC, like fall off, like
without any like real new cards.
But I guess like meta shift,like decks are only as strong as

(43:25):
the meta, right?
mean, and I guess the meta hasjust shifted.
the meta's just shifted, butisn't that also, like the whole
point of, like, when Pokemonreleases a card that just flat
out counters you?
think em's, like countering lostbox is just overstated.
Like lost box was alreadyplaying menifee anyways, like.
Who's playing Curum outside ofDraugr?

(43:45):
Genuinely.
That card is terrible outside ofDraugr.

Liam (43:48):
Yeah, no, I

Cam (43:49):
And the issue is, like, it's in the best deck, right?
And I think that's the realYeah, that happens to be the
It's like, this card thatcounters you just happens to be
in the best deck.
And, like, something that'sactually kind of funny is I
mean, Probably never happens,you could actually just like,
play Curem against them, and soyou don't like, dump 3 energy on

(44:11):
them.
Yeah, we were talking aboutthat.
I don't know if that's corrector not.
I think, like, it's awkward tocommit to it being on your
board.
Like, they can Palpat the Chorusand then you've already, like,
cooked.
I don't know.

Liam (44:20):
I think, like, that thing on board, like, This like pow
pow to all your chorus backplay, I think maybe happens
sometimes and then you find aswitch and you're fine.
Like,

Cam (44:31):
Sure, sure.
You're not but you don't get touse Curem anymore.
Like, you might be able to stillwin with Dragapult.
Okay.
Like, regardless, I think ifthey start attacking with
Dragapult er, with Regidrago,they win.
So like, how you want to goabout doing that is like, kind
of irrelevant, I think.

Liam (44:46):
sure, sure, I mean, I don't know, like, theoretically,
you should, if you're playingLost Box, you should have some
way to win if they attack withthe Drago.
Like,

Cam (44:55):
Like,

Liam (44:55):
I mean, if you don't, sure, I get your point, but like

Cam (44:58):
But like, what is the answer?
Like, what what what card areyou thinking about right now?
Like, it unironically is on thetier of like, Mew EX and your
own like, Tina V Star.
Like, that's like, how cooked itis, trying to kill Drago.

Liam (45:08):
Now, yeah, I think you just have to play a bunch of
Gusts and try to hit the OgrePawns or something, like,

Cam (45:14):
And bear, bear spam.

Liam (45:16):
yeah.

Cam (45:17):
That's so bad.

Liam (45:18):
I mean, it's cooked, it's cooked, it has no weakness, it's
280 no weakness! It's

Cam (45:22):
Faerie for the game might have been a mistake, Pokemon.
What

Liam (45:26):
Yeah.

Cam (45:26):
Yes, Fairy.
This Klefki that we play, whatif it was Fairy type but it had
an attack that did like 140?
Imagine.
the heck?
No bro, I don't know bro, I justneed a way to kill Draugr.
It's actually, it's actuallylike so frustrating that like,
unless I'm playing Raging Bolt,I don't get to one shot this
thing.
Like, What, what is

Liam (45:44):
Yeah, no, exactly, the deck is like, it's like, It has
literally no weakness.
The

Cam (45:49):
the video games, the only way to kill it is Draco Meteor
with another Dragon type.

Liam (45:53):
Yeah.
Yeah.
XP

Cam (45:59):
Like, maybe there's maybe Dragon types, there's Fairy,
right?
Like, I guess that's likeDazzling Gleam, like that's No,
but back in the day, it used tobe either Ice or Dragon.
Oh yeah, yeah, Ice.
That's what I was missing.
I knew it wasn't just onlyDragon on Dragon, but I knew and
like, their fairy is like anewer thing, right?
So, I was confused.
I'll speak to you in a second.

(46:20):
The T the HP Ice, that that waslit back in the day.
The, the other fast, aggressive,big basic deck is Moridon, is
that, that doesn't have the samematchup into Dragon, right?
Just because it doesn't haveuncapped damage.
I'd assume not.
I'm sure that with Bundle, andlike A good start, you can cook

(46:42):
Drago in similar ways, or like,even as simple as like if you're
playing like Primecatcher orCatchers or whatever, like you
can get lucky, right?
You can always hit like the, theGenerator onto Moridon, like,
Rescue Board the active,Catcher, kill their Drago, the
dragon's not playing Vacuum,right?
So you could play, like, Batonon, well, I mean, nevermind,
that would be on a hands, whichwouldn't work.

(47:02):
You could play Experience Cherenjust so you could keep bossing,
though, so you don't have to youknow, Arven for your, Arven for
your generators.
how xp share works.
Does xp share work if they hityou for 200, put 60 on the
bench, and then CC, and like,kill your thing on the bench
with with the damage of a Giveme one second, I'm gonna walk
over to the cards in TabletopVillage and read it.

(47:24):
Heh, okay.
I thought he was just it sayswhen you're active it's knocked
out by damage from an attack, sounfortunately not.
It, like, it's like, on threefronts.
It's not you're active, it's notdamage from an attack, it's
cooked, Yeah, nevermind,nevermind, sorry, sorry, sorry
for the bad idea guys.
Nah, man, I regularly gotta readthe cards, like I didn't know

(47:44):
about Legacy Energy, notproccing, but in my defense, I
didn't go to NAIC, so like, Ididn't have to know.
But I didn't know I didn't procuntil until recently, at a cup,
found out the nice way, I,didn't I tell you?
I was like, that's terrible,yeah, or maybe it wasn't a cup,
maybe it was a local.
It was a local, yeah, yeah,you're the one who told me it
was a local, because you don'tgo to cups.
You refuse.
You refuse.
Or if I do, I'm pretty shit atthem.

(48:06):
I'm gone by round three.
I mean, to be fair, ShadowRider, like, that's not your
fault.
You played me round one, thatwas already a loss, like, no
worries, happens.
this guy acts like it was notdown to a confusion coin flip,
and I flip tail, and he goes,Oh, and then he even realizes,
like, you know what, that'sactually kind of egregious.
I probably shouldn't have donethat, because I easily lose a

(48:28):
few flip heads.
That was crazy, bro.
no.
But like, look, you're correct.
If you did flip heads, you wouldwin.
But like, the reason I went forConfusion in the first place is
cause like, you're not evensupposed to opt into that, you
know, and when you do opt intoit, you're gonna flip tails, you
know?
That's like, Nah, but you know,at some point, I had to flip.

(48:49):
Yeah, yeah, of course, ofcourse, that's like the point,
right?
I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm notI'm not Hedrick.
I don't, I don't flip I don'twin 10, 000.
Dollar coin flips.
I lose, I lose local coin flips.
But I guess that's like, is thatsomething that has not come up
as, as Gardevoir?
Has Monkey Dory not really doneanything?
Is it just because they canlike, Primecatcher around it?

(49:12):
Because you do Tidalga, right?
And it has three retreats, so itkind of

Liam (49:16):
yeah, bro, the monkey comes up in every, everywhere,
every matchup.
It

Cam (49:20):
No, I know, but is it like, from Drago, has it, it still
felt bad for you guys?
It was like Monkey Dory orConfucian just not doing enough?
Or like buying you that turnthat you, you need?

Liam (49:33):
I'd say it would probably be good if they didn't play the
Switch, but they all, theyshould, and I think most of them
do, play the one raw Switch, andthat's like, that's like just
enough volume to get there, youknow?

Cam (49:44):
Yeah, because one Yeah, because before Switch They have
so many issues.
Without the switch, they can getmonkeyed.
When they cure them, they'revery vulnerable.
When they, like, even when theyuse like, if they ever try to,
like, if they play Raging Bullstill, if they try to Raging
Bull your guardi, they're supervulnerable.
But the switch just fixeseverything.
Like, the switch makes it so,like, none of these
vulnerabilities are realanymore.
And you're like, oh well.
Aye aye.

(50:04):
My bad.
You have to switch into Andbecause the deck is powerful
enough that, like, it just needsone switch in, like, claps you
up with either Kira orDragapult, and just keeps on,
Yeah I mean, that's like anoversimplified way, but it's
more like Shinoi, the morebigger issue is that they have
Prime Catchering and getting outof it most of the time anyways,
and the Switch is like the lastYeah.

(50:25):
Yeah, and they can always, andthey can just get the, Drago,
Prime Catcher They can get themback if they really need to,
right?
So it's like, technically fourif they really play it smart.
Or it happened to Hyrule, right?
So it's like, Dory doesn't doenough.

Liam (50:40):
Yeah.

Cam (50:41):
Yeah.
It just feels like you're rightthere.
You feel like you're right thereagainst Drago.
Like, even when they QM you.
But, they just get there, withthe hard switch and stuff.
They just like I, I, like, I'vebeen winning less and less games
when they Kirin me, once Istarted playing the Switch,
like, doesn't feel good anymore.
Like, before I was like, dude,they Kirin me, no big deal,
their deck sucks.
But, no, now now they get me.

Liam (51:03):
Mhm, yeah, Drago goes crazy.
Yeah,

Cam (51:10):
Man, I think Draugr's gonna be the most played deck at
Worlds, unfortunately.
It's just, like, very, veryannoying.
It doesn't,

Liam (51:17):
bro, I think we should really bring a good strategy for
that.
I I'm definitely not playingRaging Bolt, no matter how good
the strategy is.
I'm finding something else,higher

Cam (51:26):
so I think, if we're assuming that Drago, is going to
be the best, is the best deck,and the most played deck, and
obvious counter to it is Bolt.
And you probably also want towin the mirror.
I feel like the teched versionof Drago is potentially better

(51:51):
placed, right?
Like, with Gudra, youpotentially win the I don't
think it beats Bolt.
I just, I don't think the textdoesn't matter.
I played think Bolt's stillcooked.
Like, they just bundle it,bundle it, right?
I was playing, I, I mean, Iplayed a best of three against
one of the kids I coach, andlike, I, I know the matchup's

(52:13):
good, I ended up losing one toojust because there were like, I
was just like, oh, I just needBundle here, and then for some
reason I just, like, missed it,and then they were like,
Neuvern, Indigoudre, Neuvern,Indigoudre, and it, it kinda
sucked.
Just because I kept coming soI'm not gonna say that you never
lose, Yeah, yeah, it's justlike, but, like, if it buys you

(52:34):
some games against Bull andhelps you in the mirror, because
you're playing Goudra, right,which I don't think a more
consistent build is, like, thatbeats you, wins you the mirror,
right, like, are we just saying,like, that's just the better
build because you beat the twomost important decks in the
room?
mean, yeah, if I was playingDrago, that's like the first
build I'm looking at, is theGoudra.
Like, I'm, I'm, I need to beatthe mirror.

(52:54):
You're, you're completelycorrect.
I refuse to be losing themirror.
Like, that is, that's crazy.
Like, I'm planning to play themost deck, the most popular
deck, because it's the best, andI'm gonna just, like, 50 50 the
mirror.
Or, like, I mean, not even 5050, because every other person
in the room has their own mirrorsauce.
Like, I'm not gonna be playing,like, the stock list and just,
like, be, like, the, the sidecharacter who just gets, like,
like, in their tournamentreport, like, Oh, I beat a Drago

(53:15):
mirror.
I used my attack.
And like, I'm like, I'm likeplaying the Stalkless.
That's terrible.
You're, yeah, if I, the firstthing I'm testing is the Gujra.
That's, that's what I'm gettingat.

Liam (53:24):
This side character is so funny.
But that's true.
I don't know if Gujra is like,the mirror attack.
Like,

Cam (53:31):
is like, X, Y, Z.
Like, Gujra doesn't matter.
Like, the point is like, the viI'm not playing, I'm playing a
tech.
I don't know what it is, but I'mgonna figure out the best tech
and play it, right?

Liam (53:39):
Yeah, I agree with that.
Well, I don't know actually.
I think, I think running thebest version.
deck is also a fine tech.
Of

Cam (53:48):
heh.
I

Liam (53:50):
right.

Cam (53:51):
build?
Because it won't end up being100 percent Regidrago, it'll end
up being like 15 percentRegidrago.

Liam (53:59):
yeah, like, and yeah, I mean, it just, just building the
deck really well and is anadvantage that, that's like a
real mirror advantage.
I love that advantage.
It's a, it's a generaladvantage.
It's

Cam (54:12):
mean, that was my, my advantage to Urshe.
I just built the deck good.
And then I win.
Cause it works.
My deck works, and yoursdoesn't.

Liam (54:20):
yeah, just build the deck.
Well, that's the that's theultimate goal, like.

Cam (54:24):
I think when you're playing a deck, though, that literally
says, copy a Dragon Pokemon'sattack from the discard, I'm
sure you can find somethingcreative that's, like, very
good.
That's, like, a 1 up slotthat's, like, cracked.
No?
Like, yeah, if I'm playingCharizard, maybe I maybe the
tech is no tech, cause, like,Charizard just works.
Like, I just do the Charizardthing, and I'll win.
But, I think if you're playing adeck that's, like, so inherently

(54:47):
built to be a box deck, you mayas well just, like, at least
explore the box aspects.
Yeah,

Liam (54:57):
board with the bib.
It just also managed to collat,like, the entire meta, right?
So yeah, like, having some ideaother than the deck just doing
its thing is like, there'sobviously value in that too,
right?

Cam (55:13):
yeah, of course.
I don't know, is there anythingelse we have left to address?
We've been going for an hournow.
I think we covered most thingsthat we wanted to get to.

Liam (55:21):
I don't know.
I think.
Was there anything else likesuper interesting that happened
yesterday in y'all's testing?

Cam (55:28):
so we think Polt's just bad.
I don't think there was atakeaway there.
I think we just thought thatPolt was not quite good enough.
Now, while Dialga is probablylike that it is the kind of deck
where you were, When you lose,you're just like, man, I just

(55:49):
like, I needed one more energy.
Off the Matang, and then youlike flip over the top card, and
it's a medal.
And you're just like, andsometimes you're just like that
close to winning.
And, and so it's either likelike yesterday, it just felt
like there were so many gameswhere it was like a medal off,
and then I'm currently playingthree boss and no gears.

(56:09):
And I think after yesterday, itwas like, that was the other
thing, like, go up to four boss,maybe try to put some gears in,
or the other thought was to putit in a bundle.
Because like, the amount oftimes That you, I was like, man,
if I could just like, bundlehere, and Kronos, like, the
little thing, that's like, causethey only have little things on
their bench, and like, they're,they're Regidrago V Stars in the

(56:33):
active, right, or, they'reCharizards in the active, but
they don't have anything on thebench, you're just like, man,
like, it would be so much betterhere, like, this, this would
actually go crazy, cause I couldjust go like, bundle out, I have
the knockout, Kronos, and thenlike, boss, The Charizard, and
next turn, like, as long as Ihit, like, one or two metals,
like, I just one shot it, right?

(56:54):
So, it was, like, very close,and I think you just have to
commit to The best tech for thatdeck might just be, like,
committing to as much gust aspossible.

Liam (57:05):
Yeah, I agree.
When I was playing it, I really,like, I felt like if you were
drawing the gusts at the righttime, you, you were, you were
usually winning, right?
And so, yeah, I think, I thinkmore gusts make sense, and like,
the volume of the gusts actuallyis important too, right?
Like, it's very easy to, like,research one boss and then want
to use, like, three others,right?

Cam (57:25):
mm hmm.

Liam (57:27):
so yeah, I, I think that makes sense to me.

Cam (57:29):
And so there's that, and then, it was this, and so I
think that's actually prettygood.
The stadium is, like, prettysolid.
Lugia, we, we thought Shaman EX,I mean, I'm sure we'll end up
trying it.
I don't know if that actuallyfixes it.
But then I guess the other itemsto look at were I think next
week we're, or this next sessionwe're gonna be testing, like,

(57:51):
Meridon, Quadthorns, and like,maybe one other deck, so it's
like, goes to the electric decksand see if any of them can hang.
And I, I, in theory Quadthornsseems really good.
Now, I know a lot of peoplethink I cope with Quadthorns,
like, I'll be the first to sayor I, because I've just been
playing Thorns in general a lot,the thing about Quadthorns is,

(58:12):
like, sometimes you justmulligan, like, six times and
just give your opponent a goodhand, which definitely does
suck, and so they, like, Well,the matchups are good.
There are times where youactually just lose because you
gave your hand, your opponent, acracked hand, or you're like,
you have a poor start, and theycan actually just get through at
least one Thorns, and they just,like, donk you because you

(58:33):
didn't hit the second Thorns.
So there's that, but I do think,like, in theory, it does very,
very well into the meta.
In, in practice we'll have tosee.

Liam (58:45):
are, are you opting second with Thorns to try and solve
that issue?
Right, so you can turn onesupporter, like Ion Overjudge or

Cam (58:51):
Yeah, because, yeah, because, like, if you hit the
Arvin, you can also turboenergize, which really helps.
And then, I'm, I don't think itwas in Ross Cawthon's list, I
don't know how many, if it wasin, like, anybody else's list.
I guess since we're just beingvery open here, like, I'll just
share what I've been trying.
Like, I've been playingGiovanni's Charisma, so you can
also just, like, high roll into,and it requires your opponent to

(59:14):
attach an energy to the active,which, I don't know,

Liam (59:19):
Yeah, but then you can turn one

Cam (59:20):
But like a lot of like Regidrago and and Braging Bolt
will actually do that for you alot of the times right because
they want to burst or like getthe right so there's like some
decks where they'll actually dothat for you so you can either
turbo energize or potentiallyjust attack right

Liam (59:37):
No, yeah, it's, it's definitely on them to, like,
their, their plays should notbe, like, respecting the
Giovannis at all, right?
Like,

Cam (59:43):
I think most of us weren't playing it but yeah

Liam (59:47):
Yeah.
Yeah.

Cam (59:49):
so I guess like it moves to the electric decks to see and
then maybe we I don't know whatthe I think we're gonna try a
third deck I forget which one itis now I guess we'll just see
how How those end up doing, orif the big five just continue
to, like, roll everything.

Liam (01:00:07):
Yeah.
I'd suggest somebody, somebodyplays my, my Pitch LX deck.
Actually, no, never mind.
Wait, wait until I havesomething for Drago, and then
we'll, we'll talk.

Cam (01:00:19):
What's the Wait till the Regidrago matchup's real?

Liam (01:00:24):
Yeah, yeah.
But other than that, I thinkyeah, like Snorlax is pretty
good, except for the the Dragomatchup.

Cam (01:00:30):
Yeah, is that the So that's, like, one deck we
haven't talked about a lot.
So you don't think it beatsDrago, ever?
There's nothing you can do?
I know you guys have quite a lotof control, different I know
it's mainly been Pidgeot, but

Liam (01:00:42):
have too many options.
They have all the best attackersin the game.
They have Cologne, they havemultiple switches, and they have
a way to recycle all theresources in their deck.
It's like, it's pretty hard tobeat.
And they're super aggressive,too.
Like, I mean, it is just like abrutal combination.
Like, you know, controlled decksin general are like generally

(01:01:04):
The strongest at, like,exploiting, like, structural
weaknesses, right?
Like, you know, like Lugia onlyrelying on special energy.
Like, you know, the evil tallthing or whatever is, like, the
way you exploit that, right?
But so, like, you know, pickingapart, like, BDIFs is something
that, like, you know you usuallyhave to go to these, like, heavy
anti meta options for.

(01:01:24):
And those are, like, typicallyfound in Controlled X because,
you know, You know in order tomake bad options work, you have
to, you have to extend the game.
But yeah, like, Drago has, like,no, no weaknesses to pick at.
There's, like, there's nothing,nothing really to target.
It's you kind of just have tohope that they, like, brew, you
know, mismanage their resourcessomehow.
Like, that's, the only thing istheir resources are finite, I

(01:01:47):
guess.
But like, that's they haveenough, right?
Alright, that's I think thatmakes for a good podcast
episode.
We will see you all next weekwith John Paul's Hour Outro.