Henry Chao, locals, Auramaxing, and more

Episode Transcript

Liam (00:00):
Welcome to the Trash Blanche podcast.

(00:02):
Attendance is a hundred percent.
It's me, Liam Halliburton, AbanAhmed, and Cameron Shannoy.
Dragon Shields are our sponsor.
Go use their sleeves, they'rereally good.
I I like Dragon Shield.
Dude, I saw Tord.
Tord had an elite Twitter post.
Did y'all see that?
He had a bunch of, like, blackmatte Dragon Shields.

Cameron (00:20):
I did.

Abaan (00:22):
I did not see that.
Oh, I thought you were talkingabout the fortress.

Cameron (00:24):
Is he

Liam (00:25):
Yeah.

Cameron (00:29):
Ooh, we're, we're, we're co sponsored.
That's nice.

Abaan (00:33):
Co sponsored?

Liam (00:35):
bro.
Yeah, he, he got some cubeshells.
He's gonna be doing a bunch ofcubing, apparently.
And, oh my god, so many blackmatte dragon shields.
It's insane work.
Wow.
Aura!

Abaan (00:48):
Did you see his Pokemon.
com article about Dragapult EX?

Liam (00:51):
You read the whole thing?
Yes?

Abaan (00:53):
Yeah, I did.
It was kind of boring.
It was like, yeah, I don't knowwhat I expected because it's
like on the main website, butlike, I don't know, I still
hoped that he was going to dropsome like crazy nuggets of
information.
Like,

Liam (01:04):
I thought it was pretty good.

Abaan (01:05):
I mean, it was good, it was like what you'd expect, but
it wasn't like anythinggroundbreaking.
I was kind of just cruising,

Liam (01:10):
Yeah, I mean, sure.
I thought Yeah, I mean, I, I waslike, Everything TORRENT always
says.

Abaan (01:20):
Of course, yeah.
Gospel.
I guess you want to just getinto some like some normal
testing, testing thoughts?
Yeah.
Have a feelin about worlds,Format.

Liam (01:29):
sure, yeah, I actually, I've been doing a lot more
testing for worlds than I kindof thought.
I think, I think that goes for alot of people.
Maybe other people expected themto do the amount of testing that
they're doing but yeah, I, Ijust kind of assumed that, like,
you know, world's so far away,the cards aren't on TCG Live
yet, the amount of Pokemon Iplay would decrease, but no, I
don't think and that might justbe, not even because it's, like,

(01:51):
so important to play Pokemonright now, but just, I can't
help it.
I can't stop.

Cameron (01:54):
Huh.
World Championship caliberplayers have been practicing new
format.
Interesting.
I'm just kidding.

Abaan (02:02):
I think it's like, interesting though, because of
where NAIC, like when, sorry,NAIC happened, it's like, too
much of a gap.
Normally, NAIC, it's around thistime.
We're supposed to like, you'resupposed to be able to play
NAIC, and then literally, Like,Worlds format's like, right on
the corner, like, you don't loseany momentum, but right now,
it's like, weird, like, I thinkI was actually, like, I had the

(02:24):
opposite problem, where I feellike I was like, I was playing
so much right after NAIC,because I didn't get to go, and
then now, like, it's been like amonth of testing, and I'm like,
if the tournament was two weeksaway, I could just keep my foot
on the gas, but like, Kind ofhave to like pace myself like a
little bit like the nice thingis there's cups of this like old
format that like doesn't matteranymore so like I've spent like

(02:45):
a little bit of time actuallythinking about my cup formats
and stuff I have some thoughts

Cameron (02:49):
I, I

Abaan (02:50):
it's weird like we have like a local meta where there's
like no Lugia and there's likemaybe like one or two Raging
Bull and it's like whenever alocal meta has like a deck
that's like completely devoid oflike I was talking to Kobe about
this it's like I had this likemindset that like there's a best
deck in the format and I just Ijust jammed out like I didn't
This is the best deck, I'll playit at the cup, but when your
local meta, like, artificiallydoesn't have, like, aspects of

(03:10):
the meta that exist, like, on aglobal scale, like, there has to
be a deck that's probably betterthan your best deck that, like,
takes

Liam (03:16):
what I love about locals, like, it lets you just be more
reckless with like your cuts andstuff like that and play a list
that you usually wouldn't get toplay.
It's like, so fun.

Abaan (03:26):
Yeah, my issue, though, is, like, you do that, and then,
like, you don't know who's gonnashow up before you get there,
right?
So, like, you kinda have to,like, go to the tournament, and,
like, Those last two, threespots are like kind of flexible,
but I generally don't like doingthat because I always like, I
don't know, I just, I likeknowing what list I'm playing
before I show up, so I typicallydon't even make adjustments, I

(03:47):
just show up and then I'm like,oh well, the three block lacks
players showed up, my hands aretied, I already agree that I'm
going to play one tarot, like,I'm not going to slide that in
there, I guess I'll just takethe L.

Liam (03:56):
I always, I only bring 60 cards.
I think.
Metagaming your locals, like,by, like, showing up and then,
and then seeing what'shappening, it's, like,
absolutely fiendish activity.
Because I think, I think it justcreates, like a less, like chill
local environment when, like,you know, people are like, oh,
dude, if you, like, if you playa game before the event, then
people are gonna, like, metagamefor you or something.

(04:16):
Like, I think that's

Abaan (04:18):
Yeah, I know people who bring like two lists, two decks,
and they like actually, based onthe room, and like, I don't
know, it's funny because like, Ialways just opt to be like, well
I'm playing this, I don't eventell like my friends who like,
the ones like I really know,I'll tell them like what I'm
playing, and like, if they likeuse that for the decision, like,
I've just found that most of thetime it doesn't pan out, like,
you pick something based on likewhat the good players are

(04:39):
playing, and then like, you runinto like some bum playing like
the counter to your like, yourcounter, and like, just playing
what I wanted to play anywayslike typically just pans out for
me.

Liam (04:48):
Yeah, I mean, dude, playing good decks is always a
good strategy, because they'rewell rounded.
They don't have, like, glaringweaknesses, right?
I'm always totally comfortabletelling anyone who asks what I
play, because it

Cameron (05:01):
I think

Liam (05:01):
Thanks for

Abaan (05:26):
the best deck in format main.

Cameron (05:28):
Yeah, so you just know, like, Lugia, Charizard, which
one, if he shows up, maybe Ijust jam in this

Abaan (05:34):
there's no feelings attached to this for him, bro.
He literally just plays the bestdeck.
Always.

Cameron (05:40):
Cal usually just plays Guardi, so like, maybe if Cal
shows up, like, I'll bring,like, a Guardi tech or
something.

Abaan (05:46):
The problem is that like, Kobe doesn't like, explicitly do
it.
Like, we have the Kawasaki's andthey always just like, They
actually, like, they don'tmetagame based on, like, what
people say they're playing, butthey've always told me, like,
they just know what archetypespeople, like, like, and they're,
like, they go into, like, theyalways do this, like, fun game
where they just start pointingat people, and they're, like,
this guy only plays these twodecks, and, like, then you,
like, ask the guy, and thatguy's actually playing one of

(06:06):
those two decks, and, like,

Cameron (06:08):
oh yeah, Seattle players are very

Abaan (06:11):
they got it locked, bro.

Cameron (06:12):
Very obvious, their plays,

Abaan (06:13):
Did you see Ian Robb was giving a masterclass on how to
prepare for locals, and we'rejust dropping this information
for free?
Missed opportunity.

Cameron (06:21):
How to win an Elite Cup! One of your four
masterclasses.

Abaan (06:26):
Dude, I feel like Jordan would buy that, right?

Cameron (06:28):
Yeah, he, he, he might, he might,

Abaan (06:32):
Not cause Jordan's bad at winning League Cups, but it's
just Jordan he has like a fulltime job and so he just like, he
always like tells us like, Ijust, it makes sense for me to
buy the Masterclass, like Idon't have time to test.
I'll just buy the Masterclassand like, they'll test and like,
it's like I'm paying them.
like, outsourcing my work.

Liam (06:46):
Dude, dude, I respect it a lot, I think it comes from an
eagerness to learn, that'sthat's respectable.

Cameron (06:54):
yeah, he's trying to drop bars in the, in the chat
with us.

Abaan (06:58):
I think people are getting kind of bored with these
masterclasses though now, like,at this point, like,

Cameron (07:02):
Yeah, bruh, they're doing masterclasses, oh, for
anything, it's like, bro, howto, how to register for a
regional masterclass, like,Jesus Christ, no, I'm like, it's
not that bad, but it's prettybad,

Abaan (07:12):
close! No, it's close.
I saw Ian Robb, like, even wasthinking about, like, making one
for his GLC deck.
I was like, there's no way,right?

Cameron (07:19):
like, okay, masterclass

Abaan (07:21):
Rare Raikou.

Liam (07:24):
well, yeah, we're seeing, like, it doesn't really matter,
right?
I think, I think another thing,like, what it really is to show
What masterclasses have kind oftransitioned to is, I think,
GameSmart recently released,like, a free masterclass.
Yeah, like, really, it's just away for these, like, guys to
upload content and, like in away that's predictable for the

(07:45):
audience and easy for them tostructure because they can do it
completely independentlywithout, like, you know, it's
not like one on one coaching.

Abaan (07:52):
Always say this, like, I don't know if this is the first
ever Masterclass, but that'sSeer and Pharah, like, those
videos, like, I was, like, Ithink I'm a pretty good player,
but, like, I still pick up a lotof stuff whenever I watch those
videos.
Is it Kirin?
Oh, sorry, I thought it was, oh,okay.

Liam (08:06):
it's ki Kieran Faroh.

Cameron (08:07):
cured and

Abaan (08:08):
okay, my bad, my bad, my bad.
Actually, I feel bad, I don'twant to mispronounce his name.

Cameron (08:11):
Local, regional, grinder, bro.

Abaan (08:14):
yeah.
He, his videos are elite.
Like, those old, like, Baxvideos.
Guardi videos like

Liam (08:21):
dude, yeah.
Shout out.
Shout out to the shift gear.
I like, I, I am so blown away byhow much effort he, he puts into
his podcast.
It is commendable, like into allhis content.
Yep.

Cameron (08:57):
like when it was articles people who didn't write
articles well and people whojust take minimal effort because
they think that's all it is islike teaching people

Abaan (09:07):
yeah, I just wanted to make like a distinction though
Cuz like I think his like masterclass work is just like elite
like above like any othercontent I've ever

Cameron (09:13):
yeah

Abaan (09:14):
that's why I wanted to like shout him out specifically

Cameron (09:16):
like there's still great people doing it but then
there's also like the littlesuper lazy people that are
making it like Doing it, right?
Just sliding in with like fivemasterclasses, like, okay, you
just ranted on a bunch ofPowerPoints.
Pokemon basically found out, youknow, they could take some of
their college skills and maybedo something with it in the
Pokemon community.

Abaan (09:35):
Instead of making a presentation and paying them to
present it.
You're you're getting paid makethe same same quality work I
don't know, I always like seeingPokemon players getting paid,
like, in general, like, it's agood thing for the scene, but
it's like, it's kind of weirdbecause, like, whenever someone
in our community figure out howto get paid, it always involves
getting paid off, like, otherplayers, like, we never really
have, like, good ways ofgetting, like, sponsored from,

(09:56):
like, outside sources, otherthan, like, I guess, like,
Shield, like, pretty much theonly, like, sleeves from, or,
like, sponsors from outsidesources are, like, sleeve
companies and, like, gamestores, like, I swear we, like,
there's probably, like, moreavenues to get sponsored, but,
like, we're kind of stuck on,like, These two main,

Liam (10:13):
I don't know, I don't believe in sponsorships at all.
I think like, players just like,I struggle to believe that,
like, players have, like, thatlarge of a platform, like,
specifically people who aren'tlike, content creators.
If they're not, like, actuallyjust creating content I don't
think, like, the

Abaan (10:30):
Sure, I agree with that, I don't think, like, my main
point was like, the people whodo create content, like, they
could, I feel

Liam (10:34):
sure, sure.

Abaan (10:35):
Could create like more wide ranging sponsors, but I
don't know.
I'm not like really in thatscene, right?
So but the point I was makingwas like dude It's like always
would like ways for this game tobe more sustainable to play like
full time But it's like allthere all the methods I see is
always like it's like a Ponzischeme You know, like I gotta
like ask like everyone else topay you, you know,

Liam (10:54):
Well, yeah, yeah, I mean, the goal is actually to play the
game, like, full time, not to,like, be doing something, like,
related to the game.
Full time, I guess, you know?
Like, I, wouldn't want to be,like, coaching full time.

Cameron (11:07):
Oh, no.

Liam (11:07):
want to play the game full time, right?

Cameron (11:10):
Yeah,

Liam (11:12):
yeah.

Abaan (11:14):
But to get into some actual, like, deck specific
stuff, like I mean, I know thatLiam and I really have been
liking Guardi recently, but, youknow, Liam, I was actually,
someone asked me, like, what areyour, like, good matchups?
And I, like, I struggled toanswer, because, like, it's
funny, like, I was like like,Zard's alright, like, Zard can
be good, depends on the list,like, I don't know, Vax is fine,

Liam (11:34):
I think, I, I think, yeah if, if you bring Gardia to
Worlds, the answer to thatquestion has to be the mirror.
You have to believe that youhave a good mirror matchup if

Abaan (11:45):
But like, that can't work, like, that can't make
sense, like, if we're allthinking we're gonna play
Guardi, and our best matchup'sAmir, like, that doesn't make
sense, right, like, it has tobe, like, what are, what is the,
like, I don't know, Guardi doeswork, like, I, I understand,
like, why I like it, but I can'treally figure out, like, I just
get there with most matchups,like, the Raging Bull matchup
doesn't even feel good with,like, our current list, like,
all these, like, like, the Lugiamatchup is, like, kinda sus,

(12:06):
like, I don't even know, like,why it's, feels so good.

Liam (12:08):
I like, I like the bold match.
I, dude, I like, I like everymatchup.
I think Garde is just, it's justtoo strong of a deck.
Like, everything I said acrossfrom him, I'm like, Dude, you
better not let me get this GardeEX up.
I get this Garde EX up, and it'scooked.

Abaan (12:22):
Have you played against the, like, Bolt matchup in the
new format, where they have,like, five bundles a game with
the four stretcher?
And you still think it's, fine?

Liam (12:29):
I, you have to, you have to outtrade them.
And that's like, that's prettydaunting.
But yeah.
You have to outtrade them.
Yeah.

Abaan (12:41):
like Mewie X a Raging Bull, and maybe you like Garde,
Monkey, kill like an Ogre Pawn,and that's game.
Then they can have taken, like,if they take two prizes before
you start

Liam (12:50):
two prizes first.
Like

Cameron (12:52):
and just for everyone listening, because I know these
guys just went off speeding intoGarde thinking that explained
everything, they're talkingabout the Henry Chow Garde with
no Drifloon, so they're talkingunder the context that they
can't one shot

Abaan (13:04):
Oh, I forgot, yes, yes.

Cameron (13:05):
huge

Abaan (13:06):
Oh yeah, Gryfflu makes the matchup way better.
We just hate playing that cardbecause you need room for Double
Monkey, Triple Dark.
But also, if you're playing atWorlds, bro, feel free not to
have that.

Cameron (13:15):
And that's why Liam thinks that he's taking a better
mirror, so just, once again,adding the context for anyone
who doesn't know.
I

Liam (13:28):
I think the Henry Chow Guardian is absolutely amazing.
It's absolutely amazing.
I think people are seeing thatas well.
It was by far the best list atNAIC.
Like, I would have givenanything to run NAIC with that
list instead of, you know, anyother list that we have

Abaan (13:44):
I would literally have studied early, taken my finals a
week early, and like, tried toregister for NAIC if I knew I
had that list in the backpocket, bro.

Liam (13:52):
yeah.

Abaan (13:55):
That list is

Liam (13:55):
list is absolutely amazing.

Abaan (13:57):
that tournament, at least, it was perfect.
And like, yeah, even he agreesthere needs to be some

Liam (14:02):
it needs a little bit more for Zard with the Duskner.
Like Second Devo, we have theMew EX right now just a little
something to push Zard over thetop because you have a little
bit less time than usual becausethe Duskner, Duskner can really
aggro you down.
But, The list is amazing in

Abaan (14:22):
I will say too, the

Liam (14:24):
an amazing deck.

Abaan (14:25):
The weird thing that's come up with Mew EX though,
against Dusknoir, is they cansometimes, if you let them get
to one, and then you have to MewEX them, I have this like come
up, is like, they can Dusknoirand just go to Sudden Death, and
I think Zard is like extremelyfavoured in Sudden Death.

Liam (14:39):
Oh yeah, for sure.
For sure.

Abaan (14:40):
Like there's just no way, cause like, all your responses
involve like, they evolve intoZard, and then I'll Devo or
something, but.
And then another thing we weretalking about, the Mewe EX, that
card has been completely brokenfor me.
Like, first of all, in GuardianMirror, a lot of times, like,
it's it depends on how you playit, and like, I'm like
struggling to find the correctanswer necessarily, but like, it
either is a matchup where youhave all your Curlias and

(15:01):
they're just targeting yourMonkeys, and it's like, find
your Super Rod Dark every singleturn, Or, it's like, they just
kill, like, your Kirlia'sbecause you have a slow start,
and you're zero Kirlia's and,like, two Monkeys and a Dream,
and, like, at some point, youget Iona'd low, and it literally
comes down to, like, a Mew Xdraw, like, often.
Like, the Mew X, like, theability's good, the attack,
like, I mean, it comes upagainst, like, Lostbox, Lostbox

(15:22):
isn't benching Manaphy againstyou realistically, like, in
mirror, like, sometimes, like,If they have if you have to
bench Greninja to get going,there's no room for Manaphy.
There's no way you can everbench Greninja, Manaphy, and not
just lose on the spot, right?
So like, if you have Greninjadown, you either Turo, or like,
you're kind of vulnerable to MewEX.
Often they're even in prizes, solike, the boss doesn't really
come up.
But like, Mew EX is just put inwork, like, that card, like, if

(15:44):
Dialga ever comes to the thing,like, that's like, kind of a,
like, big deal.
Kind of a meme, but like, ifDiago ever comes a thing, that's
Mutex is crazy into that, like,I am very happy to have put the
Mutex on the deck, just like,versatile, like, it's not

Liam (15:56):
it's, it's so good.
It's like, the monkey fixes alot of numbers to actually make
the Medi X attacks, like, work.
Like it's able to just serve aslike a three energy one hit
into, like, so many matchups

Abaan (16:08):
And most decks aren't running, like, that much
healing, so like, a lot ofpeople ask me, like, oh, like,
how can you play this deckwithout Drifloon, like, aren't
you, like, worried about, like,having no nuke?
And the thing is, like,realistically, Things aren't,
like, if you are doublemonkeying consistently, which
you can with two monkeys, threedark, like, Gardi hits for 190.
Let's say you double monkey,right, right away.
That's already, like, 250, andthen you can just kill them next

(16:28):
turn, like, and then it's evenbetter when you get to kill them
next turn, because you can,like, CC what you want, Iono,
then monkey, and you alreadyhave, like, you take your six
from Iono, then draw the two,like, I don't know.
You do have a nuke.
It's double monkey.
That's the nuke.
Delayed.

Liam (16:43):
yeah, the, and like, you have the D.
Va to avoid needing to like,nuke it.
Like, I, the deck makes so muchsense.
I don't think the, I don't thinktrying to nuke things is like,
the right direction for aGuardian.
That was literally like, whatheld the deck back, which was
like, you're leaning so hard onthis like, Bravery, Charm,
Driftloon, which is like, alarge combo, and it's not even
like, a super powerful one.

(17:03):
Right, it still is too weak tothings like VAC and Jamming
Tower.
And it doesn't just create,like, the uncomfortable
positions.
Like, being able to dodgeknockouts and then take multi
price turns is incrediblypowerful.
Especially in a format with Fez.
Fezantipity, right?

Abaan (17:18):
Yeah, and there's this implicit buff, too, with the
deck, like, When you playedagainst Urshifu players that
were super competent, I like, Ilove making this analogy, when
you played against Urshifuplayers that were super
competent back in the day, like,you didn't really know what was
going on, and that's partlybecause of like, yoga loop and
stuff, but it's like, it wasvery hard to visualize their
threats fully, because of thetwo intel pings, and the
alakazam, and the yoga loop, andso like, a lot of times, like,

(17:39):
you just be so dizzy against thetop players, and like, if you're
playing Guardia Worlds, you'reprobably gonna have to 1 0
people, so like, you shouldn't,this isn't you're out, but it's
just something that will happenat at the tournament inevitably
is like you'll just as long asyou are super fluent and like
the like monkey potential likethere's so many random lines
with like D.
Va, Monkey like it's just sohard to keep it all in front of

(18:01):
you that you can just like losegames like the first time you
really see a cracked Guardianplayer.

Liam (18:06):
yeah, I think it's the monkey is literally, it's so, so
hard to play against, like,because the guardi player only
has to find, like, one line thatworks, which is an easier
process than you having to,like, stop every line that
works, right?
Like, you have to cover up everyhole and every weakness in your
board, as opposed to Where theyjust have to find like one place

(18:28):
for the monkey to just, youknow, absolutely crush you.
And it, it, it's much harder forthem to do that.
Like, like

Abaan (18:34):
And sometimes,

Liam (18:35):
it.
It's so hard.

Abaan (18:37):
sometimes it's not your fault, like sometimes it's truly
like a second mover's advantage,like the fact that you have to
commit to some play like meansthat there is such a line that
exists on their end that is likecrushing and like you couldn't
have prevented all the lineslike even if you like look at
the line they do and they'relike oh I should have done this
and this and stop it thereprobably was like a new line
that opened up right so likesometimes the pokemon people get

(18:57):
into the trap of like oh wellthey did this thing that was
really good like how do I stopit like sometimes you couldn't
have really stopped it andthat's like you Then you know
the deck you played against wasextremely powerful, like, oh,
like, that wasn't my fault, Ijust, I lost.

Liam (19:10):
Yeah.
Every time I play, every time Iplay Guardi, I, after every
turn, I just, I celebrate withmyself.
I'm everywhere.
I'm everywhere.
That's how I feel when I'm usingthe monkeys.
I'm just.
I'm doing whatever I want, like,the deck is too good, there's
damage everywhere, and then,like, everything just dies.
You're like, you're pacing sowell, you're so disruptive on

(19:33):
the board by, like, avoidingtaking knockouts.
It is, honestly, god, insane.

Abaan (19:39):
I will say, too, like I know we got into disagreements
about this, but like, every timeI deviate from the Henry
Chalice, or like, okay, I haveit, like, I just play it, right,
because I'm like, well, like, Ijust want to see, like, what
he's thinking about and stuff,and like, I honestly see the
logic of so many things more andmore.
First of all, this Aroma vs.
Stamp thing, I've like, Ialready thought about it, like,
I played one cup with thistournament, and like, I was

(20:00):
like, man, Stamp could have beennice, right?
And then I was like, on thedrive home, I was like, nah.
It, you literally, like, Ithought about my games, like,
the only games I was even in,like, danger of losing was when
I prized Aroma, or like, Icouldn't find it, or I couldn't
find like an Arvin or Irda, andI was like, man, like, If you
ever hit Aroma, you're already,like, the favorite to win.
Like, you do just need Kirlia'sto play the game, and if you're
playing the game, you're, like,the heavy favorite, if you'll

(20:22):
like.
And it doesn't really matterwhat matchup it is, because,
like, nothing, like, at the veryworst, often, you can just put
them in a monkey flip, like, oh,I'm gonna hit you with the
Confused Beam, and, like, mostdecks don't have enough, like,
switches, or, like, whatever,like, there's so many, like,
vulnerabilities in this formatthat, like, it's so hard to
build a deck that, like, smashesGuardi.

Liam (20:43):
Yeah I think the yeah, the Aromas, what's really weird
about it is, like, Garde feelslike it's winning on the price
trade, like, regardless ofdisruption.
Like, they can have access toall the resources in their deck,
and like, I mean, that's noteven true, but like The combos
that they have to hit are, like,so outlandish that, like, they
just never happen, as long asyou're playing, like, even Iona,

(21:06):
right?
And even without Iona,sometimes, like, you know, they
could be hitting on, sitting on,like, 6, 7, 8 card hands, and,
like, you know that you're justfine.
And, it's really weird, becauseyou start off behind, but, but
Guardi feels like it's justwinning on board, like, almost
every game that you get yourGuardi EX up, which

Abaan (21:26):
Yeah, it's like all these matchups are like, like a lot of
these matchups aren't great onpaper, but then when you
actually sit down to play them,it's just like, you can't
explain like why exactly itworks necessarily, because it's
like, you just Like, you have todo some monkey math here, there,
like, it's really hard toexplain how winning you are.
But, even like, the matches Iwas saying earlier that I didn't
feel the most comfortable in,like Raging Bolt or Lugia, like,

(21:47):
when I played them, like, I haveextremely good winning chances,
and like, I win, like, a lot ofthe time, and I just get there.
And I hate using that as ajustification, or like, how to
explain a deck's, like, power,but like, it's, it's sometimes,
with some decks, like, it lacks,like, a better, more concrete
plan to, like, explain, like,how you get there.

Cameron (22:05):
think it's, it's similar to, like, Drampagard,
right?
It's a deck that inherentlytakes a lot of 50 50s, and when
you break it down, when it comesdown to it, it, like Like, a
better player will probably makethat a 55 45, and a worse player
will probably make that a 45 55.
Because they'll just see lines,right?

(22:25):
That

Abaan (22:25):
will say Drampegar preyed on like this inherent

Cameron (22:28):
Yeah, it's a different deck, deck style differently,
but like, the same, like,

Abaan (22:34):
yeah, I get what you're saying.
Yeah, I think the thing aboutDrampagarb that was so
beautiful, like, that was one ofmy favorite decks.
It was my first ever Master'sCache with Drampagarb, so it's
like a special place in myheart.
That deck, people just suck atnot playing item cards.
That's like the truth.
Like, we're literally called theTrashland Podcast.
Bro, like, people just wereterrible at not playing a lot of
items.
Like, you were like, how am Igonna one shot him?
And then you like, look at theirdiscard and like, wait, he just

(22:55):
played like four items at theend there, like, randomly.
Ultra Ball, like, Flowstone,Blower.
Okay, Well, I guess I figuredout how I'm gonna one shot.
Like, that's it.

Cameron (23:03):
And the thing at that tournament was, it was my very
first tournament, so I wasn'treally going in saying anything.
That one that you were talkingabout, that you cached at.
Everyone was playing Drampgarb,and everyone thought they were
really good at the mirror.

Abaan (23:15):
Yes, yes,

Cameron (23:16):
always made the comment at the beginning, they're like,
Oh, I'm like, 3 0 in the mirrorand shit.
I'm like, okay, that's prettysick.
And then afterwards, like, you 20'em.
And then, like, that was allthanks to Finn, because Finn
taught me everything about thedeck.
But it's just like, everyone isso confident

Abaan (23:30):
I was sick at the mirror too, I wanna put that out there,
I was sick at the mirror.
Except Isaiah Williams, Ididn't, I thought he was a
nobody at the time, it turns outthat guy is the GOAT, but I
think that was like one of hisearlier tournaments, and he
cleared me in the mirror, and Iwas like, what a fluke.
Oh well, and then I, turns outthat guy's actually correct.

Liam (23:49):
Yeah.

Abaan (23:51):
Wait Liam, I forget, like, were you playing?
Did you play that format?
Do you know what I'm talkingwe're talking

Cameron (23:55):
Were you also sick at the mirror?

Liam (23:57):
Well, I was young at the time, so I wasn't even thinking
about, like, deck choice, decks.
Like, I wasn't really thinkingat all.
I was kind of just, you know,somebody gives me a 60, I jam it
down, right?
I played a lot of SB Guard,though.
I definitely thought I was sickwith that.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, I definitely thought I wassick.
Oh, boy.
I was like I was hitting theConfuse and all that stuff, and
I thought I was kicking

Abaan (24:16):
We can't all be sick of the mirror.
Someone here has to be wrong.

Liam (24:20):
No,

Abaan (24:20):
guy has to have a story like, I lose every mirror.
No, I'm just thinking like atthese tournaments, like when
we're everyone's sick of themirror, like there has to be one
guy's like, man I can't win amirror to save my life.
I'm 0 6 in the mirror.

Liam (24:34):
Yeah.
Oh, what I was going to sayearlier about Guardi though, I
think I think the matchups like,I tried to do it earlier, I
think the matchups are like,just like, unflowchartable, like
literally every matchup, becauseyou're, like the whole point, or
like, it would take so mucheffort to make like a whole
entire flowchart for this,because you're just so reactive,

(24:56):
like, anytime there's like aweakness on board, you, you have
like multiple threats, right,you have the Guardi Flutter.
You have Mind Bend, and then youhave, like, you have Sniping,
right, and any time there's,like, any weakness created, and,
like, these are weaknesses thatdon't come up, right in
flowcharts, and that's, that'swhy, like, where flowcharts
suffer, right, like, flowchartsdon't, don't get when somebody,

(25:19):
like, has to discard an extraswitch card or something like
that, and any time a weakness,like, that's created, and, like,
those weaknesses are inevitable,Guardi just, like, farms it, but
it's not something that you,like, flowchart out, you know?

Abaan (25:35):
I will say, like, that's exactly how I try to explain to
my friend about Eerie Zard vs.
Bax.
It's like, like, you Eerie'd andyou hit, like, three candies.
Alright, this is, like, a killthe Baxes and, like, force them
out of candies game.
Or, like, you Eerie and you hittwo Rod.
Maybe this is also, like, a killenough Bax game.
Or, like, you Eerie and you hit,like, two SCRs.
Maybe this is, like, a jam aLecky with, like, Cape and,

(25:56):
like, CC stuff and, like,Brotherhood of Energy's game,
and it's like, so hard to evenput into words all the things
that happen, that like, truly,like, you just play the game,
and like, it just comes, like,clear to you, like, what you're
supposed to do, and like,there's, and like, even the Bax
versus Guardi matchup currentlyis like that.
Like, sometimes you're supposedto like, set up, like, put 60 on
one of the Bidus, and then like,D.
Va them or something like, or611 the Barrels and then D.

(26:17):
Va them and like that's the playor like there's so many lines
with these decks that like whenyou can D.
Va put damage places and thenlike also like CC Iono and stuff
like there's like there's toomany lines to ever even imagine
a flowchart because sometimeslike A line will literally
completely deviate to a linethat's unrecognizable because of
a different resource beingtaxed, right?

(26:38):
So like, every flowchart wouldhave to be like, this is a 1 rod
1 CC, like, 2 ultraballscenario.
And like, that's impossible tolike, write a flowchart for
that.
Like, you just have to feel itout, unfortunately.

Liam (26:49):
Exactly.
Exactly.

Cameron (26:50):
And I think that's, Something that people also need
to pra I was watching a kid, akid that I coach when he was
practicing by himself or withanother person, and they just
jammed, like, the same linethree times in a row.
And I was just like, I don'tknow, like, you can't really do
that in practicing.
I don't know, that feels likesuch a waste of time.

(27:12):
And they lost all three games.
And it's just like, you just didthe same thing like three times
in a row, it feels.
Like you just need to try thingsout, deviate.
I know that sometimes peoplejust go flowcharty, but Pokemon,
I don't know.

Abaan (27:25):
You know.
what the worst part about thatis?

Liam (27:26):
flowcharting is like the worst thing in Pokemon ever,
dude.
It actually just breaks my heartanytime people are like,
aggressively flowchartingmatchups, thinking on the fly
and like deviating from the mainline.
That's like, that's where likethe most fun games of Pokemon
are played, you know?

Abaan (27:43):
I think the problem though that sucks is that it's
really like if you need to justtry things out and find lines
like that you either need toplay a huge volume of games or
you need to have a method thatmost people implicitly have
where it's like you have to beable to rule out some lines are
clearly not correct like youjust have to like sit up there
think about it and you're likeoh I can see the ending of that
not being correct but theproblem is when that process is

(28:03):
broken you just can never see aline by definition because like
the second that line comes intoyour head you like for some
reason don't see the ending andso you discard it immediately
and then you just keep like nomatter how many tries you do if
in that process you're alwaysdiscounting a certain But the
problem is, you can't not have adiscounting process, because
like, sitting there and playingevery single type of line for is

(28:25):
like, too many games.
Like, even with like, a largevolume, like, you're still just
wasting time.
I think the best thing you cando is like, hone that process,
right?
Hone the process of discardinglines.
That to like, effi make yourselfmore

Liam (28:37):
That's, yeah, that's, that's what, like, proficiency
at the game comes from, like,being able to accurately assess
whether or not lines arewinning, right?
Like, you have to be able to nothave to, but the discarding
lines is, is where all themistakes are made, right?
If you're able to calculateeverything out, you'd always
pick the best line, but,Sometimes we we stop, like, you
know, turn too early.

(28:58):
And I find that happens, like, alot with Guardi, because you're
like, oh, wait, like, the monkeyactually just saves you, because
you get, like, a second threat,or something like that later
down the line that you, like,ended up discarding, or
whatever.
Like, the Guardi ones are sohard to predict.
Guardi, Guardi is a reallydifficult deck to play, at least
for me.

Abaan (29:16):
I think Guardi, the trick comes to me, is that like, you
know how like we were talkingabout earlier, like, sometimes
there's nothing you can doagainst the Guardi, because you
need to like, they can changetheir decision?
I think committing Super Rod islike one of the more intricate
parts of Guardi, where it'slike, you need to play Super Rod
when you see it, a lot of thetime, because you can't just
hold it, it's like an I mostmatchups become like an Iona

(29:37):
war, and like, often you don'tget to just see the Super Rod
when you want it, but the thingis like, Committing Superodd
makes your hand like a littleface up, and it's like, infinite
possibilities get narrower andnarrower when you Superodd
specific things and leavespecific things in the discard.
And the other problem with Gardeis like, you can't not discard
attackers.
Like, you could say like, oh,well, my Superodd is like, fine,

(29:58):
because I just never discard myScreamtail, my Cress, my Mew,
everything.
I just keep them all in there.
But there's no like, VIP.
There's nothing in your deckother than like, VPs.
I guess Poffins, sure, there'sPoffins, but like, other than
some Poffins and like, maybelike, an extra Artisan, there's
nothing that intuitive discard.
And so like, you are discardingCrest and Mew, like, early game,
sometimes, like, and justRodding at the perfect time, and

(30:19):
like, that's the part wherelike, that's the counterplay,
that's the intricacy.
When Guardian commits Rods, theyare playing face up, and when
you pass the turn as like, aGuardian opponent, you're
playing face up, and like, thisthis Balance is, like, the whole
game.

Liam (30:34):
There's obviously some games that you can get away with
just discarding like Pauvins andEnergies, and those are the ones
where you draw the best, right,but as with every deck, you have
to make hard decisions at somepoint.
Don't play the deck right.
And yeah, it usually comes inthe form of discarding
attackers, right?
Or discarding, like, supporters.

Abaan (30:51):
I think the first time we were jamming mirror games, I
realized that, like, I didn'trealize how cracked Crest was,
and I just assumed I'd rot itlater, and, like, when we got
into those wars, like, I wouldoften, like, need to find rods,
like, an artist on my Crest, andI was thinking, like, like, that
was something I was gonna focuson the next time we played the
Guardian Mirrors, like, I thinkmy Crest was, like, being thrown
away to willy nilly.
And I think I was actuallyhurting my win rate pretty

(31:12):
significantly in the mirror.

Liam (31:15):
Yeah.

Abaan (31:15):
Unfortunately for Kobe, after I found that out, I I kept
that information, I just, I waslike, I was like, lit, I was so
free, I was like, every game Iwas just hitting Crest at the
end, like, when he was trying toLick Guardi, and I was like, oh
wow, this is like, genius, like,why didn't I just, It's so funny
when you're like, a step aheadin like, learning, because, Your
win rate isn't 50 50 at all.

(31:36):
It's like, so favored to the guywho just like, is one step
further in like, mirror, like,tech, if that makes sense.
Like, because it'll always comedown to the thing they prepped,
and then they just like, do thething, and then you're like,
Okay, that's the, that's thefirst layer of mirror work.
Now we like, now I have that inthe back of my mind, now we have
to like, build the next layer.

Liam (31:52):
Yeah.

Cameron (31:54):
And I think we were also talking about this in the
Discord, like, what games countin our testing, and people were
asking about it in our testingsession, and it really does
matter, like, where each playeris at you kinda almost have to
decide within the game, like,this one counts.
Or, that this one doesn't,because maybe the person just

(32:14):
doesn't know the deck, or is,maybe just doesn't see a line
and you don't want to correctthem in the moment, because you
don't have that relationship orwhatever, but,

Abaan (32:24):
I think the other thing is, I don't like correcting
sometimes, because it's likewhat we talked about earlier.
Yeah, exactly.
No, this is my favorite saying,I love saying this all the time,
but basically the point is like,I have certain recent things
that I, like, it's aboutdiscarding lines, right?
Like, I'm like, if someone doesa line, and I'm like, oh no, I
discarded that one, right?
Then they're like, no, no, no, Ithink this and this, and I'm
like, it's possible that when Idid my evaluation that I

(32:46):
discarded the line in, I wasincorrect, and now if I tell you
to change it, and then you justdo the lines that I think are
good, then like, what's thepoint?
So then I'm like, okay, I don'twant to, like, poison the well,
like, let's play it out, but,Often, often I end up winning
those games because I was rightwhen I discarded them, but it's
important because the times I'mwrong, we're like correcting a
huge like, oversight that I'velike, permanently been like,

(33:07):
propagating in all my games.
So it's like, important to justsee it out sometimes, and then,
what you're saying about whatgames count, I think one of the
conclusions we came to is, Ithink like, if you're trying to
get like, data type games, like,you do just need to have to play
like, a set amount of like, datagames, and like it's hard to
say, like, a game should count,like, you, like, pick in the
middle of it, but I think youshould, like, start that a game

(33:27):
should count, and then ifsomething egregious happens,
and, like, someone refuses tofix it or whatever, or, like,
they want to, like, see itthrough, you can just discount
it after, like, it's, like,clear that they were throwing,
you know?
Or, like, it ends up, like, notbeing good.

Liam (33:41):
I'm not a believer in the spreadsheet at all, I think like
volume of games, I mean, thedata can sometimes be useful,
but I'm, I'm not a spreadsheetguy, of like, you know, here's
the matchup numbers, here's whatthe expected win rate is for
each deck.
Aura.

Abaan (33:59):
Kind of, like, the thing that you're, like, tapping into
that's, like, correct is, like,obviously, I think if, like, you
told someone, like, oh, you havea 53 percent win rate with the
deck, like, You can't be winningthese tournaments with 53
percent winrate, like, if you'reAnd 53 percent winrate is
cracked.
Because the reality is, like, alot of those matchups that are,
like, 55 45, maybe it is 55 45,but when you sit down and play
it at a tournament, like, Ithink any matchup that's, like,

(34:21):
60 40 or better, it's, like,almost 100 0, like, in practice,
in best 2 out of 3, like, I willjust I will win that series,
like, I I'll just find a way,like, there's just no way I'm
losing, like, favoured matchups,like, I Look through my
tournaments, I almost neverlose, like, the favoured like,
the Very tight ones are theslightly unfavorable ones.
It just doesn't go my way,right?

Liam (34:39):
Yeah, the times you lose the favorite matchups, they're
like, they're burned into yourmemory, right?
It's like double bricking orsomething like that, right?

Abaan (34:47):
So then, like, if you took, like, the real, like,
adjusted weighted stats, I'msure your expected win rate's,
like, crazy.
It's, like, probably, if youcould, every, like, let's say
you, like, set every Zard I playagainst, like, back when Zard
was the deck, it was, like, a100 0 matchup because you just
feel so confident you're goingto beat it, right?
Even if you're playing Zardyourself, like, you're just,
like, I just win the mirror,like, 100 percent of the time.
Then, like, your expected winrate into that meta would be,
like, 70 75%, but, like, you'llnever get that from a

(35:11):
spreadsheet because it's kind ofcrazy to just be, like, yeah,
I'm just going to, like Or Idiff them and beat them so like
I'm gonna put a hundred in thespot.
That would make the spreadsheetlike useless, right?

Liam (35:20):
yeah, yeah, exactly.
I think the spreadsheet is notmeant to pick up numbers like
that, right?
It's supposed to just, you know,raw track games, but I think
it'd be interesting to run aspreadsheet where you only track
games that are played forstakes.
And not like, crazy like, youknow, like 5 bucks or something
like that.
But like, when there's somethingon the line, that's

Abaan (35:42):
That's when Liam pops off, bro.
Liam's been cleaning me out inthese money matches, I have to
admit.
He brought like Frostblast,Lugia, Pidget, and like his own
Bloklax knowing I was gonnabring Bloklax.
We went to seven recently.
I just want to bring that up.
Bringing Frostblast was crazywork.
I

Liam (35:57):
Yeah, it won the first time.
I like, the, when there's, whenthere's something on the line,
like, that's when, that's when,like, you're, like, you're
trying, bro.
You're, like, you're locked in.
You're just, like, like, all ofyour willpower, every, every,
like, fiber of your being isjust, like, I have to win this
thing, bro.
And, like, that, that changesthe way the games are played,

(36:19):
bro.
Like, it's different from when,like, When I'm just like jamming
ladder or something like that,like when I'm actually like
locked in, bro.
It changes the way the games areplayed.

Abaan (36:30):
would, I want to say I'm mature enough to like Play
certain testing games at thatlevel, but you are right, like,
obviously, like, there's acertain level that even that
you're at a local or a cup forme, like, any match where, like,
there's no, like, no do overs,you're just playing, it's like,
it is different.
And like, I'm trying way harder,and like, I think though, like,
the most zen thing to do, itwould be like, somehow, find a

(36:52):
way to like, channel that like,intensity into every single game
you play, and like, actually getvalue, but it's it's really hard
to do it in

Liam (36:59):
I easiest way is just put five bucks on it.
Just like, Well, something forstakes, bro.
Like,

Abaan (37:04):
It's like, worth it, right?
Like, in terms of likeEspecially with the world's
prizing like if you actually canget up to your testing quality
by that much like Assuming noone is winning like a thousand
zero like and like it's likerelatively even it's literally
just worth the money It'sprobably worth

Liam (37:16):
you're probably going relatively even, right?
So like,

Cameron (37:20):
you're testing with other good players, you should
probably be

Liam (37:22):
and like, this is done with, like, your friends, right?
So they're probably, like,around your level, usually.
And,

Abaan (37:30):
but it'd be kind of annoying if like you're trying
to test the matchup where likeone person is clearly favored
And you're like, yeah, let'skeep putting five on it and I'll
keep playing this side

Liam (37:37):
Oh, sure.
Yeah, I guess, yeah, that wouldbe it's pretty bad.
I've only ever played forstakes, like, I guess the stuff
that we've played, and then whenI intensely disagree with Jake
Earhart.
Dude, let me tell you

Abaan (37:48):
the matchup?

Cameron (37:49):
No, no, no,

Abaan (37:50):
Yeah.
No, tell the story,

Cameron (37:51):
no.
Don't tell the story.
We're 40 minutes in.
We've talked about Guardi as ourtesting.
Before you go tell a story, isthere any other deck?
That we've been testing, that we

Abaan (38:00):
All right.
All right.
All right Let's talk about Xard,Shinoi.
Everyone understands what you'regetting at here.

Cameron (38:05):
No, I mean, there's a lot of other decks, there's a
lot of other decks.

Abaan (38:09):
It's a lot of time before Worlds, like this is the Guardi

Cameron (38:11):
I know, I know, I know that you, I know you and me have
been playing Guardi a lot.

Liam (38:22):
those are the

Abaan (38:22):
Dude I've been like coming back around on Pidget,
but I didn't want to sayanything in the chat until I win
my cup, and then I can starttalking about it, you know?
I gotta win the Lakewood Cup onSunday, and then I'll start
telling everyone what I'mthinking.

Liam (38:35):
is such a trap, bro, cause like, it just feels so good.
It's like actually, oh my god,once you get the Pidget up, you
actually just, you beat so muchstuff, bro.
It's I, every time I play thatcard I think about, I think it's
a Tord quote.
I don't know if I've said itbefore to y'all at least, but

(38:57):
the player who wins the games,the player who has access to
quick search.
Like, that player is just alwayswinning because

Abaan (39:05):
thought this was gonna be like a life quote or something,
like the player who wins thegame, like, drew better or
something, or like, I don't evenknow, like, I don't know what
you thought I was gonna say, butno, it's literally just about
Pidget.

Liam (39:14):
yeah, it's like, it just feels true, like, everything you
want to do, you can do when youhave access to Pidgin.
And like,

Abaan (39:22):
And like, when Intel Format, was it like, whatever,

Liam (39:24):
right?

Abaan (39:25):
what, during Intel Format, it was like, the person
who wins the game is the personwho gets to, like, Intelli on
more times for more cards, like,is that just like a format
changing quote?

Liam (39:33):
No,

Abaan (39:34):
format he has like a new card.

Liam (39:37):
I think I mean, maybe, I have no idea, but,

Abaan (39:40):
I think it's just funny.
I thought it was funny that yousaid this is a Tord quote.

Liam (39:43):
strictly true,

Cameron (39:44):
Whenever you can do a broken thing more times than
your opponent, it's usuallypretty good.

Liam (39:49):
yeah,

Abaan (39:50):
Write that down.
That's a, that's a Shinoi quote.

Liam (39:52):
Pidget,

Abaan (39:54):
Actually no, Shinoi's quote is this.
It's like, anytime you couldstop your opponent from doing
anything, it's probably prettygood.
He wants

Cameron (40:00):
the shit I quote.

Liam (40:02):
I love that.
hmm.

Abaan (40:08):
to do one quick search and they need to do zero, and
that's like, that's how he getsthem.
Loves his Iron Thorns.

Cameron (40:18):
yeah, Bizarre has been pretty good, there's, and Pidget
in general is pretty good.
We, I think we all have like,there's just unlimited
possibilities, there's no realone list.
You can go super hard controlwhere, you know, you have like a
Luxray EX and Luxray V, andmaybe no Charizard, you could
have a 1 1 Charizard.
You could have a multi Charizardwith Dusknoir

Abaan (40:39):
Even within Charizard, there's like a thousand options,
like, I think that, I waspigeonholed too hard in this
Dusknoir thing, and like, it'sgood, it's for sure good, but I
was talking to Kobe about it,and like, in general, like, I
think there's maybe, like, theEleki Zard list I was playing at
Orlando, like, something likethat could be, like, modified a
bit.
I think maybe a list with, like,the Dark Package could be

(40:59):
interesting, like, the Poisonstuff, like, I I think that
Zard, like, we all saw thatJapanese Duskner list, we all
played it, and it was like, thisis solid, and, like, that kind
of is, like, where a lot ofpeople stopped, and I think
that's very limiting, and, like,that's not That's

Liam (41:13):
Yeah, dude, anytime I see, like the, like, a Zard list
from, like, this format preDuskner, I'm like, oh my god,
y'all have, like, actually somuch space.
Just, like, play every card youwant to play

Cameron (41:25):
I mean, there's the, I think, I think, like, Barbaro
and Fezendipity was something Iwas locked on, and then I, like,
tried one game without it, andthen all of a sudden I was like,
oh, this is, like, not bad,still, and I have these other
options, so I'm sure, like, youjust can't fall in love with,
like, slots this early,especially in decks like Zard,
like, oh, what if I just trywithout it, and then it's, the

(41:46):
deck's still broken, it's justbroken in a slightly different
way,

Abaan (41:50):
Like, even with the Dusklops thing, like, the only
reason I think theDuskmortalists, like, can, like,
smash mirror in ways that didn'texist before is because you can
go Dusklops CC ban, kill aPidget, like, out of nowhere,
before anything happens, right?
And, like, this is the firsttime ever in Zardmir that you
could, like, kill a Pidget, butwithout your opponent, like,
actively deciding for you to beallowed to, if that makes sense.
Like, this is, like, you can,like, do it without, like,

(42:10):
anyone, like, without their,like, Say, right?
Like, normally, like, you havethe other Zard player has to
take two prizes, and then youcould, like, max spell, or,
like, three prizes in DefiantSpin.
This is the first time where,like, it doesn't matter, like,
if I set up good, I can justkill your Pidget.
But I think, like, people areforgetting, like, what we
learned at the end of, like,that Charizard mirror format,
where it was, like, Yeah, sure,I could kill Pidget, but I think

(42:30):
demoing over and over again andmaking it so that you just,
like, aren't allowed to Pidgetis, like, pretty valid, too.
And I think the thing, though,is, like, I think a lot of
people eventually will come tothat conclusion, and so, like,
the sauce might be, like, justplay a Mist Energy.
Just put the Mist Energy backin.
That card is just good.
And, like, everyone's cutting EHammer for some reason.

Cameron (42:50):
yeah, it's, it's been feeling like that, like, more
and more that I've, like, I'vebeen wanting a Myst.
Does,

Abaan (42:56):
Mist, right?
Just first Pidget first Pidgetfor the Mist.
Good luck.
I have Quick Search.
Tord quote.

Cameron (43:03):
Does, Are you guys playing Hammer?
In the Henry Chow list?
I don't think so, right?

Abaan (43:06):
Nope, we got it.

Liam (43:08):
Yeah.

Abaan (43:08):
I didn't, I didn't decide.
Henry did.

Liam (43:10):
No, that was me.
Oh.

Abaan (43:12):
wait, what?
Henry Chow didn't say to cut thee hammer?
What the hell?

Cameron (43:17):
You know Liam always changes one

Liam (43:18):
I guess he went along with it, but yeah, I that's all I
said I did.

Abaan (43:22):
Oh my god.
I thought Henry, this was HenryApproved, giving me my e hammer
back.
This whole time I wanted an ehammer, and I was like, oh,
Henry said no.

Liam (43:32):
it's kinda Henry approved.

Abaan (43:34):
Alright.
Can I get that in writing?
Maybe a screenshot or something?

Liam (43:36):
yeah, yeah, let me go take a look see.

Abaan (43:39):
Can't be passing off the list with like, Ah, dude, this
is why I should've messagedHenry directly.
This whole time, by the way,we've been, like, Talking about
the Henry Chao list.
It's all because Liam messagedhim on Twitter And has been
passing, like, the messagesalong To, like, me and, like,
some of my friends.
So,

Liam (43:52):
yeah, bro,

Abaan (43:53):
we're all, like, We're all hearing Henry's words
through Liam And I didn'trealize that Liam in the middle
was, like, changing stuff and

Liam (43:59):
What's bro?!

Abaan (44:00):
messenger.

Liam (44:01):
Oh my god.
No,

Abaan (44:08):
I think also the Shinoi was talking or testing more with
the No Unfezant, No Bib, Alekkilist, and I will say that
Bazzard without Alekki and Eerietype stuff, like, I think the
Bax matchup is really bad, andlike, the problem is, like, this
is where Spreadsheet helpsorganize your thoughts.
You have to, like, you you'regonna lose to some things, and
so it's very annoying.

(44:29):
if like in all yourconversations like about a deck
someone just brings up yourworst matchup right and like the
way to like kind of circumventthat is to write on a
spreadsheet like what you thinkthe expected meta share is that
way you can be like look like ii i projected backs to be this
much if you think it's gonna bemore then we can talk about it
more but like If it's at thispercentage, it's clearly not
affecting my expected win rate.
Like, that's where spreadsheetsmatter.
It's like, it's like a way to,like, police these, like,

(44:50):
circular conversations thatliterally go, like, nowhere.
Because every time you bring upa change, it's like, well, it
hurts X matchup and helps Ymatchup, and, like, that's
useless.
Like, I, like, then we can'tplay anything.
Like, nothing beats everythingeverything.
Like, there's gonna be some badmatchup

Cameron (45:04):
I think the meta share part is like almost half, like
half of it, if not even more.
It's so important to it.
To deciding it.
Because that's what you'retrying to look at, right?
Is, I think, a big part of it.
Like, what everyone thinks themeta share is going to be.
And I've been in There have beentimes where we've guessed pretty
correct.

Abaan (45:25):
I'm seeing the thumbs up in the chat from the screenshot,
so this is Henry Chao approved,okay.
I'm glad that I'm gonna trustyou more, Liam, but I hope that
anything else you tell me fromHenry Chao isn't poisoned by
you.

Liam (45:35):
I'm the person who did the thumbs up, bro, like what?
I'm

Abaan (45:41):
thought that was, like, a message from him.
I'm aware.
Oh, okay, I just misread thething.
Oh, okay, okay.
Whatever, the point is, as longas, like, you're telling Henry
about our changes and, like, hedoesn't vehemently hate them,

Liam (45:51):
yes, that's, that's what I mean when I say it's like Henry
approved, but like.
He didn't specifically say hewas, like, you know, cutting the
e hammer as well, but

Abaan (45:58):
But it's, like, the meta thing, right?
Like, dude, I hope this, like,the problem is that Worlds,
somehow, without anytournaments, we're still cycling
in the meta.
And, like, now, it's, like, Ifeel like, or maybe this is,
like, Very, like, because of I'mvery local centric, but it just
feels like, oh, people arealready realizing D.
Va's pretty good, and then we'regonna put Mist back in Zard, and
then it's like, damn, do I haveto put the E Hammer back in, and

(46:18):
then, it's like this whole,like, meta that's happening, and
like, no turnovers are evenhappening, it's just like,
verbally,

Liam (46:24):
No, yeah, bro, it's because everybody is actually,
like, aggressively testing forworlds right now.
Or, like, not everybody, ofcourse, but a lot of the people,
at least I know.
And so, like, you know, they're,they're learning stuff at, like,
relatively the same rate, right?

Cameron (46:37):
you just, you just feel it every time you test with like
a different person.
You're like, oh okay, you'vealso made this change, or you've
made I

Abaan (46:45):
thing, subtle, that I wanted to share, like, with, I
don't know, I, I think it'slike, find a leak, cause like,
it's not even very well planned.
Like, proven, but like, the newhourglass tool in Regidrago, it
actually like, I was testing theGuardian matchup versus
Regidrago, and like, the problemwas like, when Regidrago
actually used one of theirbigger packs like Raging Bolt or
Kiram, it would run out ofenergy, right?

(47:07):
And so

Liam (47:07):
funny.
Yeah, I see.

Abaan (47:09):
you just rip the hourglass and get energies back,
and like, Because sometimesthey'd Kirim you, for all three
of your like, Curlias and Raltsor whatever, and you still don't
lose, because you're just Iotoand Superodd, and like, build it
back up, but if they have theHourglass, you are, it's over.
You are losing that game forsure.

Liam (47:24):
Yeah, I mean, I don't know.
I think if you get the Dragolist right, I don't even think
it's about like, like the Dragosustainability is like, so, it's
so hopeless, bro.
It's like,

Cameron (47:36):
Nah, but

Liam (47:36):
they get a Guardia EX up, it just

Abaan (47:38):
Without the Hourglass, they had like, it felt like it
was extremely favored, but withthe Hourglass, I, I said, they
have legs, like, they have goodstarts, like, they have good
catcher cologne on your like,

Liam (47:46):
Maybe.
Actually, yeah, I think, Iactually didn't think about
that, because getting to four isactually like, not even bad for
them, right?
Retreats are so valuable.

Abaan (47:55):
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, like, the Regiroggos gotstuck often, yeah, the
Hourglasses, like, yeah, theyput in a lot more work than
you'd think, right?
Because if you can ever, like,save E Switches, and, like, you
can, it's just, the problem thatthey often have is, like, E
Switches is such a taxedresource that if they ever use
one of the Discord energyattacks, you're, like, are,
they're so vulnerable to, like,CC Screamtail, and to, like,
another CC or something, like,you can make, make them move

(48:17):
really hard, or, like, if theyever have to use the, the V Star
for something frivolous, then,like, it's kind of, like, the
Guardian committing super oddthing, like, If they use the V
Star, it's over.

Cameron (48:25):
It's a waterfall

Liam (48:26):
and they have to,

Cameron (48:27):
to use it less early and then

Liam (48:29):
they have to V Star to attack, like, quickly, like, so
much more often than they'd liketo, because yes, like, if
they're able to save the V Star.
And, like, if they can taketheir first two prizes before
they hit the V Star, they're,like, always winning.
Like, the deck is, like,

Cameron (48:45):
The deck, that deck has been

Abaan (48:47):
Yeah, if the V Star is saved and they're Iono, it
doesn't even matter.
The V Star is so broken.
But if they ever just use the VStar to, like, do something, you
you, like, you're already,

Liam (48:56):
deck no longer works.
Like, they run out of gas assoon as they hit the V Star.
like, the last thing they'regonna do all game, basically,
right?
And,

Abaan (49:05):
But I think that

Liam (49:06):
if they're able to hold off on that for just a little
bit, they usually get there.

Abaan (49:11):
I think the problem, though, is that, like, if they
draw cards in the right order,like, the problem the reason why
they have to V Star is when theyjust draw, like, the E Switches
in the Squaw Can, and then theydraw, like, the The cards they
want to pre squawk and the postsquawk hand, but like, we didn't
play enough games to really knowhow often this happens, but if
they just draw cards in theright order, like, they're
seeing, like, their discardablecards in the first hand, and
like, cards that are kind of

Liam (49:30):
I don't know, I've played a lot of Drago now, it never
happens, because like,

Abaan (49:34):
Oh, alright, that's, like, what I was

Liam (49:35):
energy down too, they have to get the energy and the Teal
Mask down before the E Switch isturned on, and like, it's just a
lot, like, the times thatdoesn't happen, and then the
times that they also just openlike, completely dead, it is a
super high number of games,like, this, The turn 2 Drago

(49:56):
without using the V Star is likeit's just never happening.

Abaan (49:59):
One thing, Liam, I was wondering about, is that I
wanted to test a lot more, like,whenever we got the chance, is I
think Block Lock's for Scarty.
I think it's very reductive,what people say about it, like,
the get this perfect board,like, I think we both agree
that, like, the even one fanjust kind of ruins that plan.
And, like We've been talkingabout Vacuum and Guardi for two
reasons, because like, then youcan ARVN for Vacuum Devo against

(50:20):
Jamming Tower, which is like,kind of nice, and like, also get
rid of Fan, but like, let's saylike, we're in a no Vacuum world
I think there's a lot more to beexplored about the Guardi vs
Blocklax matchup.
I think that, that Exodia boardis like, kind of fake, but I
think there's a, there has to bevery efficient ways to play the
matchup that I haven't reallylike, fleshed

Liam (50:36):
I, I mean, we've played it, and I started out by not
playing the Exodia board,because yeah, I thought the
going for the, the board lockis, is literally just walking
right into it.
Like, you give them setup, yougive them targets, and, and
like, the board doesn't work,right?
Like, your whole idea justfails.
But, yeah, I mean, the matchupis just, it's just not very

(50:57):
good, like

Abaan (51:10):
the best suggestions, but I think there has to be a way
to, like, go pretty aggressive,but then maybe, like, fill up
your bench with, like, cardsthat are reasonable, Because
you, you really don't want like,true bricks like Greninja

Liam (51:20):
Dude, I, I don't, I don't think you can, I don't think you
can fill the bench.
Like, I think, I think your bestwinning chances are from deny
targets the flutes miss.
The and you're fine midway theArica targets,

Abaan (51:32):
yeah, I see, but like, the problem is like, you only
have two Ultra Ball, right, soit's like, sometimes like, the
last refinement either finds thething you want, or like, the
Eerie, the Ultra Balls, or like,first, and also like, if you're
not being proactive aboutsearching out these Pokemon,
like, it's very awkward to like,Discard them, like, or like,
it's, it's weird, like, you haveto basically find the Pokemon
you want to discard in the firsttwo refinements, and then start
refining them in the end.

(51:53):
Like, you know what's actuallyweirdly helpful?
Irida is pretty helpful in thatmatchup.
Like, getting to search, like,Manaphy or Greninja for free,
like, it's, it's hard to findwhat you're saying.
Like, the flutes just have goodchances to hit.
Good

Liam (52:05):
yes, they do, and that's why I think the matchup is not
good, like, you don't have a wayto stop them from filling your
board, and then, once your boardis filled, I don't, like, people
have obviously tried to come upwith like the checkmate
solution, or whatever, a way tofill a board and not lose the
game, but it doesn't, it doesn'twork.
The fan is like, it's just toostrong.

Abaan (52:25):
I think if we, the situation I was thinking about
earlier with the Klefki versusthe Mimikyu, the thing about the
Mimikyu is like, I hate thecard, but I keep playing
matchups where it ends up beingpretty good.
Like, because I'm playing a lotof this format without the
Stretcher bundle, like, it'sgreat against Raging Bull.
I think it just gets faker andfaker, though.
I guess, as people playStretcher bundle in the, in the

(52:45):
Shrouded Fable format, like,this Mimikyu card can't be that
good.
I just refuse to believe it, youknow?
I just don't think it's good.
But in the meantime, like, I'vebeen playing Mimikyu, and I
think that If I played Klefki inthat spot, like, potentially,
like, you could get to theExodia board with two flutters,
the Klefki, I think you couldeven have Mew EX as one of your
benchmark one, I was thinkingabout it, because it's like one
of the few things that usesDark.

(53:07):
And then like, obviouslyAgharti, and then maybe like one

Liam (53:11):
Oh sure, and you can like double dark it, right?
Yeah,

Abaan (53:15):
And the thing about Mew EX is that, if they have Fan,
you're killing it, right?
Like, you can kill Mimikyu andBlocklax with Fan, and then if
they have a tool, like a BraveryCharm or something, that's fine,
you're just hitting them for150, like, that's a good amount.

Liam (53:27):
I don't

Abaan (53:27):
I think the secret is, you're not allowed to hit into
the Fan.
I think you have to Turo everytime you see a Fan, and then
just make them, like, Make themprove that they can actually
cycle enough fans to win.

Liam (53:38):
There's some moments where it's fine to hit into the fan,
like if you haven't hit with theGuardi EX yet or something, like
if your energy are spreadingaway where there's only good
targets on the bench, it's fine,

Abaan (53:48):
Oh, I think it's always fine to kill the fan.
Like, that's what I'm saying,you

Liam (53:52):
No, no, no, I mean like, if you have like a Guardi EX and
it doesn't have three energy onit, and then your board is like,
you know, Flutter, Flutter,Klefki, Mu EX, Routes or
whatever, it's fine toteleportation burst and burn the
Gus, because the energy is goingsomewhere that's fine.
Like,

Abaan (54:11):
I see.
Oh, I see what you're saying.
Yes, as long as it's going tospecifically one of the things
that have the ability, which,like, clef key letter, that's
retreatable.
Mew, assuming that doesn't havethree

Liam (54:20):
like somewhere it's supposed to be, right?

Abaan (54:23):
Yeah, essentially, yeah.
That makes sense.

Liam (54:25):
yeah.
Those spots aren't like supercommon, right?
But yeah.

Abaan (54:30):
I think one fact, though, already makes it, like, very
difficult.
I don't even know if they'replaying 2 fan.
And, like, their deck is so Ithink the matchup is bad, but I
think that there's ways to, asthe Guardi player, to play it at
such a high level that, like,you're making it very difficult
for them to actually have allthe things that they're saying
they need to have, you know?
Like, cycling these fans, like,and maybe it comes down to,

(54:51):
like, a

Liam (54:52):
There's a lot of pressure on their supporters.
There's a lot of pressure ontheir supporters,

Abaan (54:56):
Not to mention, like, they can't really be road ombing
that much, because, like, bossroad omb knockout is, like, very
strong.
If you, if they don't have thetool on, but, like, yeah,

Liam (55:05):
Yeah, I think

Abaan (55:05):
if they can switch the force, Yeah, if they can switch
the forest off and get a braverycharm or something, it's
already, like, very annoyingthat they can do that, right?

Liam (55:14):
Sure.

Abaan (55:42):
If I can just like, think beyond that level, then like,
maybe even if the matchup isunfavoured on paper, if they
know what to do, it mightactually be like, practically
like, very good chances, right?
Oh, but I wanted to hear aboutyour story with Jart, though, of
course, like, or if I don't evenknow what the story is, like,
before we forget.

Liam (55:56):
I'm in.
I'll never forget.
Well, at least for like the nextlike week.
Maybe.
I don't know.
Maybe.
I don't know.
Yeah.
Jake and I were talking.
Obviously we're thinking aboutrunning back Guardi for Worlds.
Jake's been playing Guardi for ayear, non stop.
Last Worlds, he played Guardi aswell.
He went 0 3 drop.
And he was talking about it andhe was like, dude, I hit a

(56:19):
double crest.
Drifloon, Bravery, Charm,Gardevoir.
This was last year.
This was when Reversal was informat, right?

Abaan (56:27):
yeah

Liam (56:27):
And he was like, this actually swings the matchup
because they can, they can onehit my Guardia EX while ahead.
Like, I don't know what he wason, right?
And so I told him that.
I said, brother, I'm neverlosing to a deck like that.
This is what it means to haveaura.
Like, Jake is somebody who'sobviously, like, if you know him

(56:48):
at all, you know he's like, Thedefinition of a math guy, right?
He's a numbers guy.
That's like literally his thing,right?
And like, he's like, concretely,like, the double crest with the
drift wound, the bravery charm,it just like, it swings the
match up, and like, you know,he's just saying all this, and
like, I'm looking at all thesefactors, and yes, they like
exist.
Like, Jake is He's not a liar.

(57:09):
Those factors do exist.
But I'm like, that deck sucks.
And, if I was playing a goodGardevoir deck, like Jake said
he had last year, I wouldn'tlose to that.
So, we we played for like 10bucks.
He was playing Doublecrest,Drifloon, Bravery Charm, Gardey.
I was playing like, one card offTord's list.
He made me cut the VAC so thatthe Bravery Charm stuff worked.

(57:32):
He never used the Bravery Charm,Drifloon.
That card was terrible.
The second Crest was okay, butyeah, in the end, he ended up he
got to win 100 percent winposition.
I 2 0'd him, so like, maybe Iget him, you know, in game 3,
but he got to win 100 percentwin position, but he missed it.
I, I ran out of energy.
It's really weird playing thatdeck without Toro, after playing
with Toro for like, 6 months orsomething.
But yeah, I like, I committedall my energy, and I was like,

(57:53):
wait, I can just like, if hejust goes like you know, like,
boss Mew, and then hit for 40, Ijust lose.
He, he didn't realize thateither though.
So he ended up losing.
I was like, you know, all thenumbers, they tell you you're in
a hundred percent win positionhere.
Right.
This is, this is winning by thenumbers or up.
Like, geez, bro.

(58:14):
I

Abaan (58:15):
No, I mean, this is, you're actually touching on a
very important topic,

Liam (58:18):
come out of top.

Abaan (58:19):
if there was a chess evaluator, it's like funny,
because like, it's like ahundred, it's 100 percent
winning, but in practice theother guy would win like 99
percent of the time, becauselike, I was talking to Cal about
this actually, like right when Ifirst came back to this game at
Pittsburgh, and he he told melike, yeah I just like,
sometimes I was like, I'm like,I can never win this game.
Like, in paper, I can never winthis game.

(58:40):
Because if I actually use mylast attacker, I have no
energies and they can boss mychops and I'll deck out.
But I don't, like, just, like,concede.
I'm gonna do the thing and makethem, like, like, find the line,
right?
And, like, most of the time,like, someone hits you and,
like, you're just like, well,gotta find the trade knockout,
and then, like, Then they whiffthe knockout, they like, use
their support for turns so theycan't boss Archeops as their

(59:01):
last ditch effort.
And the thing is, like, thisisn't, like, should it be a real
factor?
In theory, all winning andlosing lines should be created
equal, right?
But I do think there's somevalue in recognizing, like, the
average, like, player base andknowing that, like, some lines,
like, Sometimes you can take aline that loses 100 percent to
this line that's so obscure thatit's fine.
Like, you just, you just takethat loss on the chain if they

(59:23):
find it, but you don't want tolose to the play that's 100
percent in their face obvious.
Like, you don't want the, like,the hitting each other war to be
unfavored for you, if possible,right?
Because, like, that's a linethey can find for sure.
Like, you'll, you'll, like,never win a game because they
refuse to hit you.
You'll sometimes win a gamewhere they refuse to, like, gust
deck you out.

(59:43):
At a good spot.

Liam (59:44):
I think.
I would give my opponents asmuch credit as possible.
I don't want to, I don't want tolose because my opponent played
well.
I don't want to lose because

Abaan (59:51):
This is only talking about in a situation where
you're already losing eitherway, and you have to pick
between which line you have todisplay to them.

Liam (59:59):
it as difficult as possible, but yeah, I wouldn't
if I, I

Abaan (01:00:01):
You should never take a winning position and do what I'm
saying.
I'm just saying that like, youshould take like, if you have to
choose between two losingpositions, in theory, right,
like if I'm talking to a robot,it's, it's the same, it's the
exact same.
But in practice, it's like, somelosing positions are harder to
like, execute on.

Liam (01:00:17):
But I think the more interesting question is what if
one, What if the easier, or theharder one to spot has a higher
chance of losing?
Like, slightly higher, buthigher chance of losing.

Abaan (01:00:30):
I, I think this is the part that you're like not
supposed to like do, but I, Idefinitely do.
I do just kind of make like a,like a player read, like I, I
think about what they've likesaid during the game and how
they've been playing theircards, you know, and like,

Liam (01:00:41):
If they said this was my first regional, you'd say, Ooh,

Abaan (01:00:44):
yeah, ooh, I guess I'll use my last energy, no worries.
If they're like, I've beenplaying since 2016, I'm like
I'll just rip the IONO.
Like, hope you miss it.
Yeah, I think that's like thepart that like, I don't know, I
think, I don't know how manypeople say they do it, but like,
I think a lot of, I think mostpeople do it.
Players who've like, playedthese regionals a lot, like, you

(01:01:07):
don't want to like,specifically, like, no one's
going to know that you like,made this player read and like,
maybe you're like, a little bitlike, you weren't supposed to,
but like, you just kind of knewthey weren't going to find it,
like, it's fine, like,sometimes, like, that's, you
just want to maximize yourpractical win rate, right?
You want to maximize youractual, like, how many times you
sign a win on the slip.
You don't need to like, maximizelike, if they were the perfect
player, how often would

Liam (01:01:27):
Jay completely disagrees, he would never, never go for the
practical winrate

Abaan (01:01:32):
exactly.
That's why you 2 0'd them, bro.
That's why you got

Liam (01:01:35):
yeah, we had a we actually had like an hour long discussion
after that talking about Auraand all that stuff, but one of
the, one of the things that cameup, which was, was interesting
to me at least I, I just forgot,oh,

Abaan (01:01:50):
forgot the point.

Liam (01:01:51):
Yeah, so what we were talking about earlier with the
eval bar, I think a lot ofgames, or much more than people
expect, or at least talk about,is they have massive shifts at
the end of the game, constantlyback and forth, right?
Like I go from like an 100percent winning position, to I

(01:02:12):
refinement my psychic energyaway so I can no longer retreat
my Mew, to a 100 percent losingposition, but then Jake misses
that, and then I go back to 100percent winning, or something.
Like, I think, I think thosekinds of shifts actually happen,
like, way more at the end of thegame, especially because your,
like, sequencing decisions havesuch drastic impacts on your win

(01:02:35):
percentage.
Like, if you, if you thin twoless cards out of your like five
card deck you go from like 66percent odds to win to like 40
percent odds to win or somethinglike that like that's like a 25
percent shift in who's winningthe game so like those like
massive shifts in win percentagehappen all the time

Abaan (01:02:56):
Yeah, and I think the most interesting factor about
that too is like, it's funnylike, yeah, in theory you're
winning with your hand, butlike, a lot of times the line is
like, it's so weird, like youhave to, I think the reason the
eval bar is impossible isbecause sometimes it actually
comes down to like, whether ornot XYZ is prized and like,
what's the correct thing to playfor that's prized and like, so

(01:03:17):
it's like, okay, let's say like,you'd have to like, look through
a million scenarios where it'slike, okay, imagine like, this
was like, this could be a prizecard, then like this line, makes
it so that if this thing isprized, then like, I have a 70
percent chance to win.
So then you have to multiplythose two chances together, like
what are the odds that thisthing was prized in the first
place, times like the 70 percentI win if it is prized.
And then it's like, versus adifferent line where like
something else is prized, solike maybe it's less like, maybe

(01:03:39):
that's a one off, so there'sless chance it's prized, but
your chance to win is likehigher when it's prized.
So then you have to multiplythose together, and like that's
why the eval bar, like it's, itwould be crazy like to actually
like ever implement somethinglike that, right?
Because like, a lot of timesthose last when you truly want
to win, you do just often haveto be like, This ridiculous
saying, like, both, like, bothhis last few prizes are both
psychic or something.

(01:03:59):
Something very, like, very hardto call out, but he's like, I'm
not gonna just lose, like, I'mgonna at least, like,

Liam (01:04:06):
make this guy show me that they have a psychic energy,
right?
I, dude, that was, that'ssomething that I'm like always
shocked whenever I lose to,like, an actual just, like,
checkmate position.
Because, like, usually, like,99.
9 percent of games, you can getthem to a spot where it's like,
you have to show me something towin, right?
Like, even if it's just energy,even if it's, you know, like,

Abaan (01:04:28):
Boss, it's often boss.

Liam (01:04:30):
right?
Like, yeah, show me something towin.
Right?
I, I'm always, like, shocked anytime I get into, like, an
actual, just, like, rawcheckmate.

Abaan (01:04:40):
I, yeah, they, they are, they come so few and far
between.
Like, I can honestly, like, Icould say in the last two
months, I could probably counton, like, one hand how many
times I've been, like, trulycheckmated.
Like, there, nothing needs to beseen on board, except There is
an exception to be made whereit's like sometimes you're
losing extremely hard and thenlike you play something like
Iono or something like that andthen like you don't hit your

(01:05:01):
like CC or something or like away to retreat and then the
thing that's active just diesand then you're like okay I
guess I'm checkmated but it'slike start of turn checkmates
are so rare like you start theturn and you have no outs

Liam (01:05:13):
Yeah, no, exactly, right?
Like, if you have a chance torip away to win, that's, that's
fine as well, right?
But yeah, like,

Abaan (01:05:23):
like often you end the turn losing on board but it's
hard to start the turn losing onboard right

Liam (01:05:28):
Yeah, exactly.
Okay.
Alright,

Abaan (01:05:30):
funny too.
you Oh, sure.
One last thing, it was like, itwas so funny, at my cup, he
didn't know that Mew EX was weakto dark, and so I actually was
like, I saw that there's like achance that he could like, boss
To go to her game, so I actuallylike wanted to win first, so I
actually went like, Mew EX, drawfor two, trying to find CC for a
game.
Or no, I had to find a stadiumfor a game.

(01:05:51):
So I could use Roaring Moon'sattack with Mew EX, right?
So I was like, okay, I'll I'llMew for it, right?
I missed it.
And then he bossed my Guardianand used He didn't have stadium
either, so he just bossed myGuardian and used the Calamity
Storm, and I actually beat aLost Fox with Roaring Moon in
Sudden Death, and I was justthinking like, Heh.
That was crazy, just playing tomy outs.
I just like, he showed the bossand I still didn't move.
Like, most of the time, I wouldjust like, scoop out my cards

(01:06:12):
instantly, right?
But he like, showed the boss andthen I was like, oh man, he got
it.
And he picked up the Guardi waslike, wait, maybe his Stadium,
this is like an extended BM.
And then he was like, frenzygouging.
And I was like, oh wow, playingto your outs, just like, sitting
still and like, letting themthrow.
That's my out.
But like, it works sometimes,you know?

Liam (01:06:30):
I that is, that's insane

Abaan (01:06:32):
Crazy out.

Liam (01:06:33):
yeah.
I

Abaan (01:06:35):
Because I hit

Liam (01:06:36):
I wonder if I miss out on those outs more than I should.
Like, I assume there are likesome locals warriors who are
just, they've mastered the artof, yeah, just sitting there
like stone faced in the

Abaan (01:06:47):
it's game right?

Liam (01:06:48):
on board,

Abaan (01:06:49):
yeah.
Yeah.

Liam (01:06:50):
And like,

Cameron (01:06:52):
No,

Liam (01:06:53):
I wonder, I wonder if they're picking up wins that
I've missed.

Cameron (01:06:56):
yeah, dude, well, especially at locals, and I
think even at, like, regionals,

Abaan (01:07:00):
Round 1.
Round 1.
I'm undefeated in round 1 ofregionals.
I've literally never lost around

Liam (01:07:04):
Shinoa's mastered this tactic.
That's how he starts off 5 0every, every time.
He's

Cameron (01:07:10):
Well, especially,

Liam (01:07:11):
on these kids.
Dude,

Cameron (01:07:14):
of formats and I play rogue decks and it's just like,
oh, you just fucking Charizard

Liam (01:07:19):
Yeah.
The

Cameron (01:07:24):
but alright, I guess and he's just like, oh, I guess
I scoop.
Or another guy goingcountercounter your Ironthorns.
Oh shit, I forgot to Gardevoirbefore counter catching your
Iron Thorns.
I scoop.
Like, it happens, it's crazywork, especially when people

Abaan (01:07:37):
I can't, I can't lie, the Fluttermane thing, it gets me,
like, to this day.
Like, Fluttermane is the mosthard thing for me to remember.
Like, I'm constantly retreatingto my Lone Guard of War first,
I'm doing all this like, like,aw man, dude, Fluttermane just
gets me.
Like, every time.
Do you remember that one play Ihad to, like, retreat, like,
monkey from the bench, then,like, retreat, like, monkey
again?
Like, this Flutterman thing is,like, inconveniencing me on a

(01:07:58):
daily basis.
I hate Flutterman.

Liam (01:08:00):
gets crazy, bro.

Abaan (01:08:01):
Especially when you're playing Guardian, like,
everything has an ability.

Cameron (01:08:05):
I think I realized, I think I realized that the very
first cup I ever won, and Keonewas talking to me, and I was
about to scoop finals, cause Iwas playing Buzzwole against
Maldemar.
And the two people prior to me,like, just made bad misplays,
and I won.
And I was like, I should justscoop and we can go home, right?
And he's like, no, no, play itout and see if you make a
mistake.
And he made a mistake, and I waslike, holy shit, all these

(01:08:27):
people just make, just likethrow, bro.

Liam (01:08:30):
Yeah,

Abaan (01:08:32):
The one time I've ever actually considered scooping,
and I did it, and I wish I did,was against Cameron Kawasaki.
He was playing Fusion Mute, Iwas playing Urshi, and I was
like, should I just scoop so wecan go home?
And I was like, ah, nah, hemight make, like, I don't think
Cameron's a bad player, but Iwas like, ah, what?
Like, I had the same mindset,like, I'm gonna make them prove
it.
He beat me in ten minutes, like,I think he dogged me one of the
games.
I was like, well, I guess wedidn't waste too much time.

Cameron (01:08:53):
I guess he proved it.

Abaan (01:08:55):
He proved it.
But yeah, you were under wrapup.

Liam (01:08:59):
I mean, we've been going for an hour somehow, we did it
again.
Alright yeah, I think that's agood place to leave it, we'll be
back next week with more HenryChow glaze, the usual.
All right, John Paul's our