Worlds format, Chess clocks, aura, and more!

Episode Transcript

Liam (00:05):
Welcome to the Trashlanch podcast, attendance is 100%.
It is me, Liam Halliburton,Ibran Ahmed, and Cameron
Chennault.
We are sponsored by DragonShield.
They're actually gonna send ussome stuff for Worlds, and we're
all gonna use Dragon Shieldstuff, because Dragon Shield is
so good.
Their sleeves are really sick.
So I use Dragon Shields.

(00:25):
Yeah we are Currently, in themiddle at the beginning of a
long stretch between NAIC andWorlds, where absolutely nothing
is happening.
So, we will try and findsomething to talk about for the
next hour or so.
Yeah,

Abaan (00:41):
like us, I don't think it should be too much of a
struggle.

Liam (00:44):
Bon says he's a fiend, and, and likes to talk about the
Worlds format, so why don't wejust kick it off there.
There was a recent, yeah,Japanese tournament that Hegster
gave us some lists for from topfour and onwards.
Abon, what is your opinion onthese lists?

Abaan (01:01):
Alright, I mean, the like, two things about like,
Japanese lists, they just cannever be normal, bro.
Like, I've never seen a Japaneselist, and I was like, oh,
they'll play that in America,like, okay, there's some like,
some key standouts I want topoint out, and like, I didn't
think that that's bad, that someAmericans do, it's like, they
look at a list, and they justdismiss it, like, instantly.
Like, there's some cards, like,At least, you have to kind of

(01:24):
understand what they're tryingto go for in the background,
right?
So like, their backscaliber listthat someone ran, Daichi
Shimada, right?
That guy's obviously cracked.
He's running a 1 1 Palkia, aKyogre, he's running the new,
like, Unfezant or whatever thatlike draws 3 or something died,
Unfair Stamp, E Hammer, RescueStretcher, like, it's just such
a weird list, but the one thingabout it that I was thinking
about was like, Unfair Stampactually seems pretty good,

(01:47):
because he's running two boss,right?
So like, at first I was likepretty confused what the point
of this was, but like, if, like,after playing a lot of backs,
like, you really only need likeone to two gust effects a game,
so like, the Primecatcher isnice in its spots, but like, If
you could just unfair stamp andthen draw like your prime
catcher, or sorry, yourcountercatcher or boss
naturally, that'd seem prettygood.
And then the other Japanese listthat I'm like obsessed with,

(02:09):
that I've been trying to testafter seeing it, is the 1 line.
Like, I just think that fixes somany problems in Zard, like,
there's so many times where theyjust awkwardly like, Don't take
the prize, and they just look atyou, and they just refuse to,
like, interact with you, andit's so frustrating, and having
a way to just, like, just killyourself to get to that 210, and

(02:30):
then also be able to place the50 damage from Dusclops, or 130
from Duscler, and then not tomention, there's a lot of late
game states where instead ofhaving to opt into the, like, to
the the one prize board statewhere you have like the rad czar
the charmeleon and the bibanymore they cut the bib all
entirely and i guess the pointis that a lot of times with
dusknoir they can just jump fromlike three to one three to zero

(02:51):
by like cc'ing somethingdusknoir killing like something
small and then just zarding forgame so I don't know, there's a
lot I think there's a lot tolearn from these Japanese lists,
right?
Because, like, even if they seema little weird, like, I think
it's bad to dismiss, like, theseare all, like, cracked players,
like, that you they're, like,not all of them, you know?
But, like, they're all like, Iassume that they're

Liam (03:11):
No, yeah, bro, that's like the craziest part too, is they
like, they always show up toworlds with these like really
weird lists, and somehow doreally well too.
I think Daishi when he gotsecond, he was playing like, An
Arceus list that I wouldprobably never ever touch
because it played the fighting,it played the Decidueye line, it
played a Pikachu line, it playeda Moltres, and like a 2 2

(03:31):
Jolteon with the memorycapsules.
Like, it was just everything andsome went in the same spirit
here, which is like, it, it justhas so much stuff.
But yeah, he got second atworlds with it.
That's like

Abaan (03:43):
I I never played that format, but I heard from my
friend Kobe, that deck was apile.
Like, it just doesn't run.
Like, he was like, did this guy,like, cheat or something?
How the fuck is it

Liam (03:53):
that's what I would guess if you're like playing like, you
know, E hammer, 1 1 CPOW, butlike, you know, you make it
happen, bro.
Make it happen.

Abaan (04:02):
I will say, in general, like Whenever I'm like getting
like frustrated testing likeother decks for worlds Some part
of me just wants to like lock itin and say I'm fucking I'm
playing CPAL for worlds Nomatter what because that deck
like it just cannot be a badplay like by definition It just
can't be that bad like there'sjust nothing that

Liam (04:20):
yeah, because the deck is so strong.

Abaan (04:21):
yeah It's just so consistent so strong like it can
never be like more than lessthan like a tier 2 play tier 1.
5 honestly play

Liam (04:30):
Sure.
Yeah, I think, I think CPAT islike solid.
It's

Abaan (04:33):
I think the

Liam (04:34):
I don't know.
I never like playing it becauseit feels so fragile.
Like, it's either you hit likeeverything or you, you, you have
nothing and like, every time youmiss, it's like, I mean, it's
basically just game losingbecause the misses like incur
like super strong board damagethat is like basically
impossible to recover from.

Abaan (04:54):
sure, I just think, like, the logic for me, at least with
CPOW, is like, looking at, like,the two Vessel lists and stuff,
I'm not sure if it's the bestIron Hands test, but it's, like,
very close between, it's eitherthe best Iron Hands user, or
it's the Lugia it's the bestIron Hands user.
I don't believe any Generatorbased build, or the Lost Box
based builds, are, like, moreconsistently using hands on two,

(05:16):
so it's, like, I think the wayto beat Gardevoir, if you can't,
like, do some megamind shit withlike Jirachi and Manaphy and
like stalling them has to belike just hancing them on two
every single time you play themright And I, I think I'd most
like to try my hand at the CPAL,if I had to try that.

Liam (05:33):
I think Zard is probably a pretty good way to beat Garde.
I'm not entirely sure, but Ithink, especially with the
Dusknoir, like, I think Garde isa deck that intrinsically
suffers into the Dusknoir,because, like, what the Dusknoir
is, like, naturally super strongat, it's not or, like, it has a
bunch of other strengths aswell, but one, one, like, really
strong idea with it is that itbasically just accelerates the

(05:55):
game, and that you can force,like, one prize for one prize.
And a deck like Guardi, like,really doesn't like that, like,
if you, you know, somehow find away to pop Dusknoirs to jump
from like, you know, 4 to 0 inone turn, they, there's no way
they ever win.
Even like 3 to 0, like Jumpslike that are really hard for
Guardi to deal with.

(06:16):
So I think, and I mean, theJapanese results, I think, are
somewhat implied from what I'veseen.
I'm not sure if it's just thistournament, but also like meta
shares or something like that,that like Zard is seeing a lot
of success in a meta that comingout of NAIC at least looked like
would be dominated by Guardi.

Abaan (06:36):
Like, when you just think about it, like, what are you
even worried about playingagainst with Xard Dusklops,
right?
Like, exactly, like, it's veryhard to deal with that Duskanor
getting set up on the bench,right?
And so at any point, with thevacuum, the CC, and the
Duskanor, it doesn't even soundthat difficult to jump from 4 to
0.
And like, It feels like Guardiahas very little counterplay
because you're not activatingtheir CC.

(06:57):
So they have one boss and like,you have Manaphy, so they only
have like, Crest to get aroundstuff, right?
So it just feels like, it feelslike it should be so favored.
Like, I haven't really tried itmyself yet, like, that's
definitely like, right up on thedocket, because I was playing my
own list of Dusknoir, whichlike, with Evos and Bib and
stuff, and it, And I wasactually still beating Guardian,
but it just like, the whole timeit was like, felt very clunky

(07:17):
and I was like, not a huge fan,but I was like, If someone shows
me how to make this deck like,consistent, and I guess the
answer was like, I was tooinvested in this Duskner line,
it was too thick.
Just 1 1 1, it's totally fine.

Liam (07:29):
Alright, wait, can you explain to me the logic behind
going like 1 1 1?
Like, why wouldn't you go 1 Ifeel like committing to either,
like, the Dusclops, if theDusclops is, like, good enough,
you get enough value out of it,or the Dusknoir is, like, makes
the most sense, right?
Because hitting both of them issomething that I assume you
rarely, rarely do.

Abaan (07:49):
I think here's my guess, okay, from what I can understand
about this.
A lot of times in like, matchupslike Raging Bulls, you want to
just Just take the Dusklops soyou can take the like you can go
like sec or first I mean, have aCharmender if they don't knock
you out.
I think you choose secondsthough But it's like basically
you just can use Dusklops tolike get to the knockout
threshold.
They're not playing ban Yeah,and then if you're playing

(08:12):
against like Guardian stuff, theDusclops is pretty useless, and
so like, and like, you can useDusclops as a pseudo vacuum to
like kill like a Drifloon withlike a hundred on it, but like
that's not the best use, becauseyou're playing your own vacuums,
like you'd rather just usevacuum for vacuum's purpose, and
then use Dusclops in order to dolike a whole extra prize, right?
And so I think the point is thatyou don't, you don't even have
to commit the candy to Dusknoir,right?

(08:32):
Cause you can like, go Duskull,Dusklops, and I don't think
they're ever really allowed tolike, boss kill it.
So you have all the time in theworld, like if you're using
Dusknoir, for some mega play,you have a lot of time to get
it, so you can literally 1 1 1up.
And if you're using Duskklopsfor its job, then you can just
like, Just use the Dusklops.
So, I think it's I think,realistically, it's probably,
like, it could be a 1 1 linewithout the Dusk Lorna at all,

(08:55):
but then they're like, well,there's literally no reason to
not play Dusk Lorna if I'm gonnaput a 1 1 Dusklops in my deck.

Liam (09:00):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, right?
Like, you, in the matchups thatthe Dusk Collapse is, like, not
enough, you, you already haveberry access to just, like,
bench evolve, turn two, turnthree, turn four, and then you
just evolve later on, and theDusk Nova's, like, oh, it's
enough, that thing is, 13 is somuch, right?
Yeah.
Sure.

(09:21):
What was I gonna say?
Oh, yeah.
The, the other thing that youmentioned was, like, Unfair
Stamp and Chen Pao.
That was obviously somethingthat stuck out, or stuck out,
but that's also something that Irock with heavy, bro, because I,
I was thinking, you know, to, tomyself, like, just last night,
bro, like, I really want to sendsomething with Unfair Stampedo

(09:41):
Worlds because that card ishonest to god bonkers, bro.
I was, I was hating on it onrelease because I was like, you
know, man, there's no way, like,they would print a card that's,
like, so uber mega insane theyjust KO turn 2 when you lose the
game, like The onboard draw isso strong in this format, but
it's, it's not, bro, like, theonboard draw is pretty weak,

Abaan (10:01):
Imagine you have Onboard Draw, and then I Dusknoir kill
it, and then

Liam (10:05):
yeah, yeah,

Abaan (10:06):
the Dusknoir for the Underastamp, but like,
obviously, like, Unfair Stamp'salready active.

Liam (10:11):
the unfair stamp lets you be so much more aggressive with
that, Disrupt plus, like, targetdown your engine play, and
that's why Guardi is like so, sostrong at using it.
Still play Hyper Aroma becauseHenry Chao plays Hyper Aroma,

Abaan (10:24):
comment.
I watched his stream interview,and he's like, Bro, if you play
the game, you win.
Why would I play Unfair Stamp?

Liam (10:30):
oh yeah, Crazy Aura! That was, that was like max Aura bro,
so yeah, definitely play theHyper Aroma still.
But, yeah, that's the reasonGuardi's able to utilize the
Unfair Stamps so well is ofcourse because they target down
engines.
But, I think, like, even just ingeneral, I, you can think of a
lot of these A Specs as just,like, supporters on items.
But they each have, like, smalldifferences, right?

(10:52):
And the difference with UnfairStamp is you get to basically,
like, do the, like, PrimeCatcher Iono play.
Like, Prime Catcher Iono wasnever that strong, but that's
because you send them to, like,5.
And 5 is actually, like, a lotmore than, like, 2, bro.
So,

Abaan (11:07):
Draw is a huge aspect.
The fact that it's like, N, is

Liam (11:10):
yeah.
Shuffle Draw is, like, reallyjust max disrupt at the at the
start of games, right?
When they're not able to thintheir deck down.
And,

Abaan (11:18):
I mean, one thing about the Henry Chow thing, by the
way, is I think, like, I thinkthe reason he, like, struggles
so much against Lost Blocks,like, he lost in top A and,
like, tied Andy and stuff, Ithink Unfair Stamp is peak
against Lost Blocks, becauseearly game, when they take just
their innocuous prize, like, thefact that you can just make them
shuffle their deck, and, like,they don't get to, like, put,
like, they don't get to curatethe cards at all, they just

(11:39):
literally just, like, their deckis, like, 50

Liam (11:41):
Yeah, they, yeah, they just have to send it, right?
Yeah, no,

Abaan (11:45):
that it matters a

Liam (11:45):
dude, I think every time I play on fair stamp, I'm like,
geez, dude.
I like, there's like maybe a,you know, 30% chance.
I just like instantly win hereand like, you know, I am
definitely in a good spot, likeliterally no matter what.
So I, I think the card is likesuper amazing to play in Guardi,
but like Henry Chow is Maxor, soyou should just listen to him,

Abaan (12:08):
that's why, like, all these factors to me, like, this
format just feels like no onewants to, like, take that prize!
Because, like, I'm just gonnaget CC'd on Fairstamp, which is
why, like, Dusklops is so, like,crazy to me.
It's like, bro, if we're bothjust sitting there looking at
each other, I can just, like,pop the shit, CC, gimp you,
like, that's broken.

(12:28):
I don't know.

Liam (12:30):
Yeah, I think, I think the Dusclops does sound pretty good.

Cam (12:33):
1, like, it feels like you only need one to beat.
I don't know if you justoutright beat control, but seems
pretty good against them if youcan loop in.
I mean you can Iona them tolower

Liam (12:44):
yeah, I mean, it depends on the control list, right?

Cam (12:47):
Yeah, it depends on what they're doing, but it just gives
you a weird out

Liam (12:51):
No, yeah, I think it's a complicating factor in the
matchup

Abaan (12:55):
it may be complicated things, but I think the fact
that they can still shoveMimikyu over and over again, and
then like, Zerosik and Iri, it'svery hard for you to do any kind
of looping, like, your rods arebeing pressured, your hand size
is always low, like, you canliterally just run out of
candies, and at the end of itall, like, if you do get through
all this like, nonsense, like,the bear sweep is like, kind of

(13:15):
scary, like, if I get all yourcandies and I just like, two
shot your Zard, like, I don'tknow, it's, It's possible, like,
you're not worried about certainresources until it's like very,
very, very late game.
Like,

Liam (13:26):
You literally never attack with anything.
Yes, alright, I think

Abaan (13:29):
it's, like, yeah, because I never get issue.

Liam (13:32):
or whatever, they only, yeah, it only happens against
players who, like, prettybrutally mismanage their
resources.
Like, they They go into theCharizard way too

Abaan (13:39):
at some point you're not mismanaging your resources
though.
At some point you're trulygetting, like,

Liam (13:44):
no, yeah, yeah, like, I, dude, I, this is part of what
prompted my tweet, this is agreat segway my tweet into like
why playing against Control isso terrible at least the current
iteration, which is like thesePidgeot lists, which is like,
you're in these like basicallyforced lose lose situations by
like turn 5 where, you know.
And like, you could pack it upthen and just be like, alright

(14:08):
dude, I like, this guy's gonnaplay Penny every turn for like
the next like three turns and Ilike guarantee to lose, but
like, there's no upside topacking it up and you're like,
bro, like, just show me you haveit, like, in essence you feel
like the only thing you'retesting is whether or not they
play the card that counters youor like for the specific
situation you're in.
Which is like, the leastinteractive test ever.

(14:30):
It's like, so terrible to playagainst.

Abaan (14:34):
If you're playing a best of one, I agree with you.
I agree with the concept ifyou're playing a best of one,
but like, I think the best twoout of three, it's kind of like,
you're, there's like an implicittax where it's like, because
I've showed you that I'm goingto win this game eventually, you
need to trust that I'm not goingto like have a stroke and you
need to just scoop and like,then you can win game two for
sure.

(14:54):
Take Right?
Or like, let's say you do wingame 2.
If you don't win game 2, it's amoot point, you're gonna lose
the series anyways.
If you win game 2, then like,either you just like, game 3,
don't pack it up and you get totie for free, or you win game 3
off like, some fluke, right?
Like, the people who just sitthere and make you prove it game
1 are like, throwing their ownchances.
Like, after a certain point, youdon't even have to play game 2,
like, you're just gonna like, dorandom penny nonsense and like,

(15:16):
win.

Liam (15:18):
Yeah, I think You pack it up like, obviously much faster
game one than you do game two,right?
But, I like, dude, I think a lotof people underestimate how fast
Pidgeot is as a deck.
Like You get into a like aCompletely dead lost like a
hundred percent.
There's no way like it'sliterally just locked up like on
board Position like very fast

Abaan (15:41):
I'd say it's like within two quick searches.
Like, literally turn three, itcan get devastating.
Like, there's a Luxray with 260HP milling you, and it's like, I
would have to draw like, let'ssay you have a hand that's like
clunky, there's no way toshuffle, and you just have like
two crucial resources, and Ijust see it.
Like, I Luxray, discard thefirst one, and I see the other
one, and then you don't haveIona, and it's just already

(16:03):
tragic.
Like, you've already

Liam (16:05):
I mean like dude and even Even in situations like that
like say like where they justget to the Luxray before you hit
like an attack to take a prizeor two optimally, right Even
those positions just feel, like,dead lost.
Like, you have no activity inyour hand, you have to basically

(16:25):
draw every combo piece at once,or else you get Luxray stripped,
and like, you also just, like,don't even have, like, a volume
of resources, because, like, youbasically are, you're, like,
paying resources to set up.
Like, like, your setup is nothappening yet, because, so, so
you end up having to, like, dosomething, like, you know, like,

(16:46):
play boss to take your firstprize, and, like, So it's
basically cooked as soon as theyget like turn two Luxray and you
haven't hit attacks.

Abaan (16:54):
Yeah, I mean, I agree.
Like, I think people inherently,like, the people who think they
have the most fun playing asControl, I don't want to be,
like, rude, but I think they'reprobably playing as, like, not
the most skilled Controlplayers, because, like, I swear
when I play against, like,myself playing Control, like,
I'm like, bro, I either can'tbreathe or it's free.
Like, I don't

Liam (17:13):
Yeah, like no, because it's situations like that too,
like those are the ones that'shard to scoop and you basically
just have to sit there the wholetime getting absolutely cooked.
You're like, dude, I have likeboss double Turo in deck and I'm
playing Guardi.
So like, why would I scoop?
But you have six prizes left,and like, no activity on board.
Like, you're literally cooked.

(17:35):
But you have all your resourcesleft, so you don't want to
scoop, but like, I mean, you'recooked, you're done for.
And you have to like, you haveto sit there for like ten
minutes and like, to take likethree prize cards and then lose.

Abaan (17:49):
I mean, it has to be magic for you not to lose,
right?
You have to not draw BraveryCharm, Boss, Toro.
You just need to draw, like,Pure Energies and Curlia and,
like, Ultra Balls.
Like, you can't draw, like, goodcards before the bad cards,

Liam (18:01):
yeah, no, I like, I mean, it's, it's cooked.
It's literally cooked,

Abaan (18:05):
you literally cannot Arven for Bravery Charm.
That's how terrible thesituation is, right?

Liam (18:09):
Yeah.

Abaan (18:10):
your Arven is just Search and Item card.

Liam (18:13):
Yeah, I know, it's like, it's just brutal.

Abaan (18:17):
You know one thing I was thinking about with Guardi that
I've been, like, kind ofdismissed because I was, like,
testing Stefan's list just for,like, Just so I can get a
uniform experience when I'mtesting against Guardi.
And so, I actually think the D.
Va is so interesting to me,like, I think that Zard is gonna
be good, Bax is gonna be good,like, I think that Devo should

Liam (18:34):
stable in that

Abaan (18:34):
Yeah, it has to be, right?

Liam (18:36):
yeah, that card is so insane.
You like, it just makes so muchsense with the deck.
Like, it has so much synergywith like the Monkey Dory
Flutter.
Like, the deck is basically justlike a spread deck at this
point.
And Yeah, like, you should playDevo in a spread deck.
Like, you're putting damagecounters all over the entire
board.
It's it has like so muchsynergy.

(18:58):
And you're playing a ton ofdisruption.
Like, you're disruptionoriented, spreading damage
counters.
Like, Devo is just an amazingcard in that deck.

Abaan (19:05):
I don't know if this is an apt comparison, but like, I
mean, I played a lot of Urshifu,and like, it kind of feels like
that vibe where it's like, youknow how you could like, meta
champ and Iono them and etc,right?
Like, playing Reset Stamp feelslike that.
It's like, oh, I get to play areal supporter and Iono you?
So like, and then you have thespread, you have the Devo, like,
I was like, wow, it's like, thisactually does like, feel like a
little bit of like, peak Urshifudays, you know?

(19:27):
It's pretty high

Liam (19:28):
every time I play, every time I play on TCG Live, I like,
Forget I've played a supporterwhen I, or like I haven't played
a supporter when I ownFairstamp, and then I see that
like little green glow aroundthe Arvin, and I'm like, oh
dude, I like, I just get to dowhatever I want this turn, like,

Abaan (19:44):
Like, I get the Aroma argument, like, because Guardia
is so solid that if you play,you're gonna win, but man,
Unfair Stamp is, like, it's inthe name, bro, it's just so
unfair, like, how can you notplay Unfair Stamp?
I don't know.
I think it has to be Stamp, evenif Henry Chao told us the truth.
Unfortunate.

Liam (20:02):
I, I trusted Henry, bro.
I, I will always put my what isit?

Cam (20:10):
that's just like a power card when you're playing at
Worlds, right?
When you're playing against theother, the other best players in
the world, and you're in qualmsabout who's participating and
not, like, wouldn't you ratherhave the, like, the stronger
card?
Against a stronger player likeyeah, I don't want really want
hyper aroma and just like set upI want the unfair stamp to

Liam (20:29):
Dude, you know what's actually hilarious though is, I
like basically just be playingPidgeot on ladder all day, and
like, every time I see thatunfair stamp I just like laugh
to myself bro, because like, itdoes nothing bro, that card is
terrible, but,

Abaan (20:43):
I will say,

Liam (20:44):
every other deck it's like super insane,

Abaan (20:46):
you bring up like a pretty interesting point that
like a lot of people don'tconsider enough.
It's like, I read this articlethat like Ian Robb tweeted
about, it was about like someMagic Players article the other
day.
Like the other day being likemonths ago, right?
And I was

Liam (20:57):
yeah I know.

Abaan (20:59):
people like don't go for the kill enough, right?
And it's like actually just sucha good point.
Like if you play against areally skilled player, anytime
there's a chance that you lose,they'll like often just like go
for it.
And like if you have it, thenthey don't just lose, they're
just constantly doing checkswhere it's like if you miss,
Your back is broken, you justlose the game on the spot, but
if you have it, like, we justkeep playing, and maybe I, like,

(21:20):
I lose a little bit of winpercentage because I, like,
wasted a resource, but, like,whatever.
What's the big

Liam (21:25):
that's literally exactly what I said, I think, like, last
week, bro.
Which is, like, I'm superwilling to take shots into,
like, Roxanne, where I'm, like,Yeah, dude, I'm just gonna go to
two and see if I rip boss offRoxanne, and then, like, I win
the game if I do.
Like, as opposed to, like,trying to, like, set up a better
board or something, like,Gigabrain myself out of Roxanne
or whatever.

(21:45):
And, like, you know, if youcould do Gigabrain stuff, sure,
go for it, right?
But, like, yeah, just Getting,getting raw win percentage is
like, the most terrifying thingto play against right?
Like, Even when it's like,incorrect, the scariest feeling
in the world is watching like,the Mew player play all the
power tablets in their hand todraw three more cards to try to

(22:07):
win the game.
Like, shooting for win is like,it is terrifying to play
against, so yeah, you should,you should shoot for the win
more, but like, also don't begreedy, bro.
I think some people are like,absolutely terrified of passing.
I, that was something I noticedwith, with Zard vs.
Guardian.
One reason I think that Dusclopscould be really good is like,
people want to hit turn toattack with Zard.

(22:29):
They're like, You know, oh,like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go,
like, Candy Pidge, Candy Zardand, like, see if it works out,
but then you just, like, walkinto, like, Stamp Stamp Drifloon
or whatever, right?
Whereas if you, if you just,like, Pidgey it for, like, a
Poffin or, like, a Charmeleonand just sit there, this was
exactly what you were talkingabout earlier.
They have one boss.
Their deck doesn't do anything.
Like, they just have to kind ofsit there.

(22:50):
And they have, like, some longterm threats with the Monkey
Dory if you, like, sit thereforever, but, like, I don't
know.
You can afford to make yourboard a little bit better
sometimes.
So like, shoot for like, actualwins,

Abaan (23:00):
them, right?
Like, they can't really Guardi.
Like, they're, it's too scaryto, like, Guardi Cresselia,
right?
Because then the Guardi's justsitting there.
Like, they have to Turo in combowith that.
And the Charmeleon plus Manaphyis, like, unhittable on the
bench.
Like, yeah, you can literallyplay that deck, like, play that
matchup like you're playingPidget, but you just have better
tools.
All

Liam (23:17):
yeah, exactly.
You just like, you wait for themto do some stuff and then you
like, hit Wizard three times ina row and like, it's just
unstoppable, right?
Yeah, I think, I think peoplecan approach matchups like, a
lot more patiently, but alsoyeah, shoot for wins.
But that doesn't mean just like,attack every single turn and
like, make sure you attack everysingle turn.
Like, you should

Abaan (23:38):
I mean, there's a key distinction here, right?
It's like, attacking doesn'tmean shooting for win, right?
Shooting for win means, like,literally, like, a winning,
like, thing.
Like, you're just gonna eitherwin the game raw, or,

Liam (23:48):
them out, if you

Abaan (23:49):
yeah.
yeah.
exactly.
You're gonna win, like, 100percent win, or, like, it's so
crippling that anyone can seethat's obviously a win, right?
It doesn't mean, like, justhitting something.
That's not shooting for wind,that's just hitting them.

Liam (24:01):
Yep.

Cam (24:04):
And I think that's like I really liked iron thorns for the
reason that yeah It's not alwaysthe strongest But it does do
that like sometimes you just ripa generator you throw an iron
thorn in the face you take aknockout and You say no
abilities like if you don't haveit right now It gets bad pretty
quickly.

Liam (24:20):
Yeah, dude, I thought, I thought that Thorn stack was
like really good.

Abaan (24:23):
The four thorns, or just, like, the future hands thorns?

Liam (24:25):
no, the the feature, the feature one,

Cam (24:28):
and just set up an iron hands on the bench while you're
doing that

Liam (24:31):
yeah.
I don't like the, the quad thornstack.
It feels like so gimmicky asopposed to the the, the future
thorns, which like.
You literally have the exactsame gimmick, which is, if their
deck folds the Thorns, youalways win.
And, but you also don't just,like, lose if their deck doesn't
fold the Thorns.
Like, you also get to hit withIron Hands, which is, like, a
super broken attacker, right?

Abaan (24:50):
And you gotta have the plus powers for your thorns.
You have the four the crowns forthe plus powers on thorns and
hands, like, you haveeverything.

Liam (24:56):
No, yeah, of

Abaan (24:57):
is not playing the bro, it's stupid.

Liam (24:58):
makes everything.
Makes the math work out superwell.

Abaan (25:03):
Can we talk about something?
What is the dea like, I did notrespect Maraudon as a deck at
all, until I saw that Ian Rawlplayed it for NAIC, and like, If
you want to talk about Aura,bro, that's like, one of the
Aura kings in the game rightnow.
So like, what do you guys think?
Like, how the how the hell,like, is Maraudon, like, Explain
it to me, like, what's theargument to play Maraudon over a
Raging Bolt or like, any ofthese other decks?

Liam (25:24):
Bro, Morionine is, like It is just goaded, bro.
Like I, I really, I I reallylike Miranda.
It's like it's much more solid,bro.
It's solid.

Cam (25:33):
your, your chances into Guardian and Lost Box are just
way better, right?
Like, if you just throw a Handsinto their face, and you just
go, eh, like,

Liam (25:41):
exactly.
It's, it's the

Abaan (25:42):
But you don't have Mareep anymore! Like, what happens
after they kill the first guy?
Like,

Liam (25:46):
dude, you gotta hit them.
Jennys, bro.
You gotta hit them GeneratorsLike what?

Cam (25:50):
and Prey.

Liam (25:51):
Yeah,

Abaan (25:52):
Okay, so like there's no hidden sauce.
It's what I thought.
It's terrible,

Liam (25:57):
I,

Cam (25:58):
but like, I

Abaan (25:59):
but it works.
It works enough.
Like I haven't

Liam (26:01):
yeah, I, I, I, I think dude, the, the deck is like, it,
it's just good, bro.
Maran is like.
You hit, you hit really hard,you hit really fast, and you get
to hit with hands sometimes.
Like, that's a, that's a goodcombination for a deck.

Cam (26:13):
Of the format, right?
When everyone's like, shittingaround with like, mediocre lists
or like okay lists

Liam (26:20):
yeah, yeah.
Hit hard, hit fast.
That's always a good strat,right?

Abaan (26:23):
Shinoe, I have a question for you about like what do you
think your matchup into likeZard would be with your future
handsting?
That's like my main reservationagainst him.
Even testing it.
I just can't imagine this hardmatchup even with Thorns is like
good enough.

Cam (26:37):
i mean i don't know i think the thorns I think the Crown
plus Thorns makes it fine, itjust depends on how well they
draw before you start throwingit in their face.
You're gonna two shot a Zard,they can't really one shot you
before then and

Abaan (26:52):
But the Dusklops seems like enough, no?
Like, if I can Dusklops, I can

Liam (26:55):
I'd buy that.
It's pretty good.
Maybe the Dusclops is enough,but yeah, you, you brick them a
little bit, you hit theirconsistency, and the deck is
like, I think the matchup isactually a little bit better for
or like it's always been betterfor hands than people give it
credit for.

Abaan (27:08):
I do agree, if you don't just bench crowns at terrible
times, and you like, manage whenthey come down, I can I already
thought that the matchup waslike, not terrible, because I
was like, I was losing to myselfand then I play at a tournament
and they just bench a crowd.
I was like, oh, okay.
Thank God, I'll boss knock

Liam (27:23):
Yeah.

Abaan (27:23):
And,

Liam (27:25):
Yeah.
Exactly, bro.
But like, they win super fast.
Like, they get like a MaraidenKO turn one, and then like,
they're basically threatening towin in like, two attacks if you
like, irresponsibly set up yourboard, and then they like, shove
the Maraiden on again, and chipinto the whatever it is, the the
Zard, and like, so they have alot of ways to threaten like,

(27:45):
two amps to win.
And that's like,

Abaan (27:49):
from your list, by the way, a Psychic just has to be
correct, right?
No Psychic seem wild.
Not one.

Cam (27:57):
it's probably correct at some level, I just wanted to,
like, I just thought beingslightly better on generators
was just like, the right choiceover at the first tournament, or
whatever it is, you know, eventhough it's only one tournament
long,

Liam (28:11):
Yeah, I don't think that can ever be too punishing.
Hitting more generators is like,always good.

Abaan (28:16):
sure, but like, dude, hitting with Maraudon for like
220 damage is just crazy, likein so many matchups now.

Liam (28:23):
Yeah, I mean, it's fine.

Cam (28:25):
Yeah, I mean, it can be in spots, but I just didn't think
it would be

Abaan (28:29):
Did you miss it at the tournament?
Like, did you ever think like,fuck man, where's my Psychic?
Alright, nah.

Cam (28:34):
Nah, not really, like, I was just, cause I'm always, you
need to kind of, I mean, youjust put two on thorns, and then
you attach another one, andlike, the, the thing about
thorns is like, you're also,this version of the deck, you're
doing like, 200 damage with thethorns, and then you're, you put
down a second thorns ifsomeone's like, trying to bundle
you, and then you put down ahands as well, and you're,
you're charging up the hands,and you're, you're gonna win if

(28:58):
they don't deal with it soon,that you

Liam (28:59):
Yeah, I mean, if you're not leading the Maraidon, you're
leading the Thorns in a lot morematchups, like, it definitely
makes less

Cam (29:05):
you just Hyrule, yeah, if you just Hyrule with the
generators, you're just usingthorns and hands the rest of the
way and like, I don't know,like, MRI'd on for 180 doesn't
seem as good as amp or turningoff abilities.
I

Abaan (29:20):
that's actually a pretty good argument.
Turning off abilities andhitting for 200 is pretty
cracked.

Cam (29:25):
Or just taking an extra prize for 200.

Abaan (29:28):
Those are both pretty cracked, fair enough.
really is old school TDK, by theway.
It has like everything, man.
It has like, plus power, it hasthe Miride on, it's got like,
it's got everything.

Liam (29:40):
Yeah, I think it's lit, bro.

Abaan (29:43):
You guys want to talk about the Chess Clocks by any
chance?
The Liam tweet?
I have a lot of

Liam (29:46):
bro.
Yeah, bro, me and Aban reallygot into it, bro.
I think chess clocks would bewonderful.
Aban, Aban has like afundamental belief that like if
he plays Kirlia's, he's entitledto 35 minutes of the time and
the other player is only allowedto get 15.
Um, I disagree.
Like, I think, I think bothplayers should have an equal

(30:09):
amount of time.
Like, if you imagine even thechess clock scenario, like.
Where, where both players get aset amount of time at the
beginning of games.
Abond would like to see a worldwhere he can indicate on his
decklist, like he draws an arrowup next to the Kirlia's, and
he's like, look, 4 Kirlia, giveme plus 15 minutes, and like,
the timer starts with plus 15for him.
I, I think that, that doesn'tmake sense

Abaan (30:29):
you're thinking about it the opposite way, bro.
In chess, like, it's just oneguy moving his hand and, like,
moving a piece and then hittingthe button, bro.
Imagine if in one chess, like,one guy was just moving pieces
and the other guy's, like,having to be, like, fucking,
like, Tricks, bro.
He's having to spin around.
He's having to like, do like acalculus problem on the side.
Like, of course that guy shouldhave a little bit more time to
press buttons, bro.

Liam (30:48):
cause you think the deck's harder?
Like

Abaan (30:52):
Like, you're literally just like, turning your Kirlia,
refinementing, drawing your two,playing a search card.
Like, if you want to sequenceyour turn in a way that takes
extra time, that should betotally legal.
Like, if you want to like, nestball, search your deck, shuffle,
then Kirlia, then like, levelball, shuffle your deck, That's
valid, you know?

Liam (31:10):
I don't, I don't know why you're like so desperate to,
Not, not only like encourage,but reward players for playing
high a PM decks by giving themmore clock time.
That's like literally the worstfeeling in the world, in the
current state of the game, whichis a player's playing like a
high action deck and they decidethat they're, they deserve more
clock time than you.
So with five minutes left afterwinning game one, they decide to

(31:32):
take, you know like a fiveminute turn of playing buddy
puffins.
That's like the worst feeling inthe world in the current game.
I don't know why we wouldencourage that.
I think getting rid of that islike.
The reason that chest clocks areso great.

Abaan (31:43):
No, because Peak Pokemon is high APM decks.
That's the point that I've beentrying to convey to you this
whole time.
It's like, the guy who's doingthe high APM deck, it's not like
he picks some, like, cringePokemon deck, and then like, Oh,
I chose the high APM deck so nowI can do more time.
It's like, no, I chose the mostplaying Pokemon deck, and then
I'm playing the game, and thenyou're like, Getting upset,
like, why is he playing so manycards?
Like, I just attached my Arceusand

Liam (32:04):
I didn't actually expect to hear that from you, because
like, the greatest Pokemon thatI've ever played is probably
like, is, is, is genuinely justcube format, which is like,
lowest action deck.
Which is like, basically justlike, draw, attach, energy,
pass.
That's like, the greatestPokemon that I've ever, I've
ever played.
This like, I'm gonna use fourCurleas and then play three
Buddy Poffins and like, do like,15 minutes of shuffling before I

(32:25):
finish my turn, is like, WorstPokemon in my mind.

Abaan (32:30):
Oh, okay, sure.
In cube, though, I'm not thatinvested in who wins.
Like, it's like, oh man, I do myattached pass, and then he did
his attached pass, and then he,like, Rare Candied into the
thing he cubed that was broken,and I lost.
Oh no, shucks, I had a greattime.
When I come to a tournament,bro, I'm like, bro, I want to
win.
I'm not down to just lose tothis random guy who's doing more
stuff than me.
Like, what?

Liam (32:52):
I mean, I don't, I don't see that, why, Jesus Christ,
bro, like, this guy, dude, like,

Cam (33:01):
cooked,

Liam (33:01):
I don't,

Cam (33:03):
Just

Liam (33:03):
I don't understand why he, why he thinks he deserves, like,
35 minutes and the other guygets 15, because what, like,
what if the other guy marks downthat they have four Curlios in
their decklist too?
Then you could just, like, agreeto play a Vesa 1.
I think that would honestly,God, be fine.
Like,

Cam (33:16):
I

Abaan (33:17):
the core belief in the background is that I'm down for
that.
I'm down to play a best of one.
I'm down for us to both mark thething and play the best of one.

Liam (33:25):
yeah dude, I actually think just playing best of one
would be like pretty fire bro.
Dude, that was actually the mostlit thing ever, the Isaiah
Bradner Hedrick match, I waslike, oh yeah dude, that is,
that's sick stuff bro, yeah.
Cam would you play best of oneif your opponent offered you to
play best of one at Worlds?

Cam (33:42):
I mean, yeah, sometimes I do that.
I mean, against, against

Abaan (33:46):
Cherno's like, oh, you're familiar with my work.
You've seen my

Liam (33:49):
Hahahaha,

Cam (33:49):
like, I played against Stefan Tabacco, and I was just
like, and I think just like noone said it, but we just were
like, whoever wins this game isgonna win, like, it is what it
is, I can,

Liam (33:59):
I mean, the whole point is explicitly stating it because
there's two outcomes after youwin game one if you don't
explicitly state it, which isone, you successfully slow play
them into a tie, or into a 1 0,or two, you get docked, and then
everybody loses.

Cam (34:14):
I mean, when

Liam (34:15):
state it, you avoid both of those, which are the only two
outcomes.

Cam (34:19):
it also heavily depends on like, what, what deck I decide
to play, and also,

Abaan (34:24):
Like, okay, the thing for me though is like when you agree
to a best of one, like it's justso like hype, because that means
in that game, you're playing a50 minute best of one.
Like, no one is like trippingabout time.
Like, you could deck check forlike five whole minutes, and
like the other guy's nottripping at all.
They're like, who cares

Liam (34:41):
Alright, no, I would actually trip out if they were
deck checking for 5 wholeminutes, regardless of how much
time is on the clock, becausethat is absurd behavior, bro.

Abaan (34:48):
Yeah, of course, I'm kidding, I'm kidding, that's
like crazy.
But my point is like, no one'slike tripping in general, like
sometimes you just

Liam (34:53):
no, yeah, dude, dude, that's why I think the chess
clocks would be so good, bro,like Everybody would get a set
amount of time, which means thatyou can be flexible with time.
And, like, somebody can thinkfor like 2 minutes if they want
to, because the only personthey're hurting is themselves.
Like, as opposed to the current,current stage which is like, you

(35:13):
know, there's much lessflexibility for that.
You just like, you have to makeplays very

Abaan (35:16):
But if you do that, My issue is that you're playing a
series, bro.
Like, if someone does that topunish, like, to think hard and
win a game, that should berewarded, because like, you
thought really hard and yououtplayed them in one game.
And then now, the second game,you're just like, they just turn
their brain off, they play like,really fast, and you just lose.
Like, that's fucking

Cam (35:32):
I don't know, come on bro, there's no way, there's no way
that, like, at NAIC, you couldlike look at Natalie Miller when
I play her and be like, yoCameron is this gonna look at
his hand and peak accelerationafter like 5 seconds?
And you have as much time ashim, like, it doesn't matter,
like, you just automatically are

Abaan (35:49):
Yes, exactly! I don't want Shannora to get the time I
do, bro! That's ridiculous!

Cam (35:54):
it's ridiculous, like, there's no way, oh someone, I
just, I should just, because Ihave the 25 minutes, I'm just
gonna sit around, futzingaround, like, huh, let me really
think about this for a little

Abaan (36:05):
It's like ChessWiz, we should be able to go to the
bathroom, get a drink, comeback, oh, peak acceleration.

Liam (36:10):
dude, I think that would be amazing bro, but dude, like,
alright, yeah, the equivalent inthe chess world would literally
be, like, The equivalent in thechess world, and this is like,
hopefully, this is the dumbestthing ever, so hopefully like,
you know, this resonates withyou guys, is, Magnus Carlsen
sits down to play a cross from afirst time player, and when the

(36:31):
first time player sits down, thearbiter, the person who's
running the tournament goes upto him and says, yo buddy, your
opponent is thinking about thesepositions much more deeply,
we're gonna give you 30 seconds,they get all the time in the
world, just make random moves.

Cam (36:43):
it's crazy that like,

Liam (36:45):
That is like, that's terrible.

Cam (36:47):
it's crazy you want to get on me about power shuffling, but
basically I like, I would justsit there doing the exact same
thing with like 25 minutes to myname with peak acceleration just
like, huh, let me just walk downto the end of the table and see
what everyone's playing,

Abaan (36:59):
bro, there's a game across the game, there's Board
State, like you're trying totake

Liam (37:02):
issue for that.
I'd have literally no issue withthat, Shenoy, if it didn't mean
you were about to 1 0 the otherguy.
Like If you weren't taking timeout of, like, if their clock was
ticking and you undid that, Iwould have an issue with that.
But, it's your clock ticking.
Nobody cares.
Yeah, dude, Shannoy shouldliterally be the biggest
advocate for this, because hewants to be able to just, like,

(37:24):
sit there and tick his time sohe can do his pile shuffle
thing,

Abaan (37:27):
No, no, no, no, it doesn't make No, what you're
saying, he should not be thebiggest out of kit, right?
Because Shinoi and I believevery heavily that there's a game
above the game, you know?
There's the game on the board,you're taking the prizes, you're
fighting them, and there's agame for the clock, you know?
You're making actions that arestealing from their clock.
You play, like, you playLovable, it reads, Do nothing,
take 15 seconds from youropponent.

Liam (37:47):
Yeah.
Literally, bro, I think anyonewho thinks that should be
abolished should be abolished.
Total advocate for chess clocks.

Abaan (37:56):
I don't think you should be a boss though, bro.

Liam (37:57):
viciously.
People who want to do a vicious1 0, you know, go for the go for
the current system.
Current system gets lit,

Abaan (38:04):
we should talk about the one Like, point that Liam and I
end up, like, kind of agreeingon, where it's like, if you win
a game, but it took you a lotof, like, mental time and, like,
just time, right?
There should be a reward, atleast, so you don't just, like,
lose a series you're about to 10 because of your

Liam (38:18):
Yeah, no, I think we'd 100 percent have to go to the go to
best of one if we did chessclocks.
I think winning game one andthen losing on time is like,
that's just like actually toobrutal.

Abaan (38:29):
Yes!

Liam (38:30):
So yeah, I would 100 percent go to a 1 0 system

Abaan (38:33):
then at that point, I don't think you need chess
clocks to play a 30 minute bestof one.
I don't think people, like, Idon't think

Liam (38:39):
I mean it's probably, I, I,

Abaan (38:41):
need it at that point.

Liam (38:42):
Bro, people definitely slow play in 30 minute best of 1
bro, like,

Abaan (38:46):
Fine, I'm down for chess clocks for best of one.
I've, I've, I never, like, myissue, all the things I told you
that were my issues, all involvethe fact that it's a chess clock
in a series.
Like, that was just horrible,like, the concept of, like, your
time being a amount for a wholeseries, it just sounds really
bad.
Like, I'm down to

Liam (39:03):
I mean, I don't, I don't think it's terrible if you have
if you're responsible with yourclock, like in the sense that,
you know.
You can do it responsibly but,use time responsibly and then
it's all fine.
But, yeah, sure, I get yourpoint and I think I think Best
of One would probably be better.
Best of One with chest clocks,you eliminate all of the time
issues.
Seems pretty good.

Abaan (39:23):
Yeah, best of one chess clock, rip it, 30 minutes.

Liam (39:25):
Shinnoi, what do you think about that?

Cam (39:27):
You can change whatever the rules are, like, I don't care.
Like, I just,

Abaan (39:31):
I'll figure out the way to exploit

Liam (39:32):
Is Shinnoi going to get you anyway?

Cam (39:34):
I just don't think it, like, I don't think it matters.
Like, you're just over here,like, you know, I used to be
young and try to think of, like,the perfect system in the world.
It's just like, bro, you just,like, gotta play the game to the
best of the rules, no matterwhat they are.
Like, I don't know, like,

Abaan (39:47):
Shinoi plays the rulebook bro, we're playing it all wrong.

Cam (39:50):
I, yeah, that's all

Liam (39:52):
is literally at the top of the, like, top of the list.
The peak of the Dunning Krugercurve of like, age and
experience, bro.
This guy like, he's like, oh,I'm 30, bro, I know what I'm
talking about, like, these kids,bro, oh man, I

Abaan (40:07):
I used to be like you, thinking about the rules.
But now, they just tell me whatthe rules are and I play them
bro, that's it.

Liam (40:12):
Yeah, yeah, like, this guy, this guy thinks he's so
enlightened,

Cam (40:15):
you're over here wasting time of your day just to be
like, hey, in a perfectuniverse, the system that I
would like is this, it's like,no one gives a, cause it doesn't
matter, no one's gonna do

Abaan (40:25):
I actually disagree though.
Because if, if you like say abanger on Twitter, like a, like
a complete banger that everyoneagrees with, and then they start
echoing it to their little like,their little groups, and it
starts like, the hive mind, likethe Liam system, and like

Liam (40:38):
Yeah, no, no, he

Abaan (40:39):
chanting in one.

Liam (40:41):
change, bro.

Abaan (40:41):
Yeah.

Cam (40:43):
Okay, bro.
Let me know the next time, hugesocial change in the Pokemon
community starts all of a suddenbecause of Twitter.
Shoutout

Abaan (41:04):
That's not even a joke, bro.
After, like,

Liam (41:05):
I, dude, NO, bro, the double nickling is crazy.
I literally, all the pileshufflers, bro, they got their
pile shuffling introductionright after double nickeling
introduction course, bruh.

Abaan (41:17):
Help! Sort your manas and your, like, your lands and your
trainers and your fuckin Pokemonand then Two piles of five.
Just draw the nuts every time,man.

Liam (41:30):
I know dude, the craziest part, the craziest part is like,
then you tell them Well, like,you tell them to stop doing that
because it, like, you know, it'sstacking your deck.
You're not randomizing it.
And they're like, but dude,every time I don't do that,
Shannoy said this, like, wordfor word on the podcast last
week.
Every time I don't do that, Idraw worse, bro.
So I feel like I gotta do itevery round.

(41:52):
Like, dude, I just gotta declub,bro, or else I start drawing
bad.
I gotta do a little

Abaan (41:56):
Anytime I don't just Like, yeah.
Anytime I stack, like, I draw sogood, and then when I stop
stacking, I draw so bad, like, Idon't know.

Cam (42:03):
to my boy Navarro, he's like, I was listening to you,
and you know, I'm heavily onLiam and Avon's side, but you
like, almost convinced me for asecond there, with what you were
saying.

Abaan (42:14):
vibe.

Cam (42:17):
So, shout out to him, I almost got a I almost turned
some people.

Abaan (42:23):
Yeah, but

Liam (42:23):
He almost got there.
Mm hmm.

Cam (42:25):
Oh man.

Abaan (42:27):
I guess do you want to talk about the other Liam tweet
or is that one just like, justlet it sit there?
The aura, the the lat like thetraining ladder of aura.

Cam (42:35):
Nah,

Liam (42:36):
aura, the aura tweet.

Cam (42:38):
necessary, oh

Abaan (42:39):
bro.
I

Liam (42:39):
necessary, bro.

Cam (42:40):
dude, dude, dude, dude.

Liam (42:43):
I made a tweet on Twitter.
Maybe like two days ago orsomething, bro.
Let me go find that joint.

Abaan (42:48):
I didn't read it for the class.

Liam (42:50):
Yeah.

Cam (42:51):
This is for anyone who missed it, because I know
everyone checks

Liam (42:54):
where did I put this,

Abaan (42:54):
Yeah, in case you have Liam Muto on Twitter like I do,
that's cap.
Actually,

Liam (42:58):
Yeah.

Abaan (42:58):
there and like every tweet.
I'm a big fan.

Liam (43:00):
Dude, literally.
What was it, bro?
Oh, yeah, this guy was likeYeah.
We were literally, we weretalking in the discord, and then
like, I went and made, I wentand made the aura tweet.
It was literally right after wewere talking, bro.
But like, and this guy was like,bro, you really left the
conversation to go make the auratweet?
I was like, bro, you really, youreally went on Twitter as soon
as I stopped talking and lookedat the aura tweet?

Abaan (43:22):
I was bored, bro.
No one was talking.
I had to go check Twitter.

Liam (43:26):
Yeah, I gotta go peep Twitter.

Abaan (43:29):
And I was like, wait, this is the follow up to our
conversation, what the hell?

Liam (43:32):
Let me go, let me go find this, alright.
Yeah, I said, people with auraare able to find the best plays
without even thinking.
Imagine the best plays on aspectrum, where on the left end
you have the very best, on theright hand, right end you have
zero.
And, the middle is likebasically numbers that, are
denote like the quality of theplay that you make right so you
have like one two three fourfive six seven and most players

(43:55):
they try to like use logic andmatchup knowledge and all this
random stuff to like improve thequality of their play where they
jump from like one to two tothree to four to five but the
best players when they when youhave aura the plays are
basically revealed to you so youyou're able to disregard this
entire like Ladder in the middleof plays and go backwards like

(44:17):
from zero to the bare to theother end like it loops around
and so like you you don't evenhave to think about all of the
concrete aspects of the boardAnd you're you're able to
basically just like divine theright plays and you see this all
the time Which is why likeplayers who have basically zero
matchup knowledge zero concreteknowledge You know, they won

(44:39):
worlds in 2007 and have notplayed the game for like 15
years You They're able to justpick up the game and instantly
sense out what the right movesare.
Like, they're better thaneverybody else because they're
trying to everybody else istrying to use logic and they
just like Disregard the logicentirely and just like play the
cards that speak to them andbecause they have aura the right

(44:59):
cards are speaking to them

Cam (45:01):
No,

Liam (45:01):
they're spiritually in touch with the cards

Abaan (45:06):
Okay, I love Liam's delivery of this whole thing.
There's actually a lot of truthto what he's saying, it's just
like, not in the way that he'ssaying it, obviously.

Cam (45:16):
not the way you say it all.
Like those fun, thosefundamentals of card games.
That's why like, it doesn'tmatter if you've played back
then or now.
Like there are certain thingsthat

Abaan (45:25):
no, it goes deeper than that.
Like, you just play someone, andthey just no, okay,

Liam (45:30):
It's the experience,

Abaan (45:31):
I want to just yeah, I want to, like, pull real words
to, like, what Liam's saying,so, like, people can get some
real takeaways from this.
First of all, if you, like, arenot that good, or, like, not
that experienced, don't try anyaura stuff.
Don't play, like, with yourinstinct.
Try the iterative process,because, like,

Liam (45:45):
No, don't do that.

Cam (45:46):
know, know the

Liam (45:47):
your aura, bruh.

Cam (45:48):
Maybe you practice a little bit

Liam (45:50):
you don't even have to think about

Abaan (45:52):
hit the hit the sim, practice a bit, iterate, like,
see what's possible, I promise,like, that's gonna help you out.

Liam (45:58):
Yes, but you have to let the cards speak to you, bro like
The card that is calling yourname, if you trust your gut
more, and your gut will berefined by like years of
experience, but if you trustyour gut more, your play is so
much

Abaan (46:11):
I actually agree with you, that's like what I'm
getting at.
You practice, like you don'thave aura in tournament, right?
You just practice like you'resupposed to.
Like if you're trying to likeactually maximize and like
guarantee that you're gonnaspike a tournament, at the day
sometimes you do all thesethings and like it doesn't work
out, or like you don't do allthese things and it does work
out.
But like if you want toconsistently do, like at least
relatively well, you have topractice like you don't have

(46:32):
this aura, and then in thetournament itself, you can't
play like you practice.
You can't just like sit thereand like think that hard, and
like try to find the perfectline.
Like, in the actual tournamentgameplay, you kind of do just
need to like, oh, I mean, I'veplayed this match up a hundred
times, I'm just gonna play whatit seems like correct, and The
car if you the better you get,the more often you're actually

(46:52):
just like, your instinct is theperfect line.
Like, I do actually thinkthere's something about like,
training your aura.
I just hate saying it like that,but like, you do need to like,
train in a like, practice reallyhard, and then in the
tournament, you'll Kind of justlet things like flow because
otherwise like you're eithergonna take too long or you're
actually gonna like in thatiterative process you're either

(47:13):
gonna get stuck too early in theloop or you will hit the right
answer and then continueiterating for some reason and
like somehow overthink your wayout of the right answer.
So like, I think just lettingit, just like letting it rip at
tournaments is like, Kind of themove, like you have, and like, I
make like, small misplayssometimes, but in general, I
feel like I play pretty close tooptimal, just like, just letting

(47:35):
it rip most of the time.

Liam (47:38):
Yeah, just let it rip, dude.
I, like, that is literally thescariest, the scariest position
to be in, in an event, is notknowing what to do.
And like, for some players, thisis like, dude, my matchup
knowledge didn't cover thisposition.
And that's why they like, theyfail, right?
Because when, you know, theirmatchup knowledge doesn't cover
this position, they haven'ttrained up their aura, and so
they can't, they can't definethe right move.

(47:59):
And so they, they end upflopping.
And that's why like, whatdefines the best players is
their ability to innovate.
Because your aura is consistent.
You're constantly in newpositions in tournaments that
you haven't like practiced orseen in practice and yet if you
have, you know, if you have likeThe spiritual connection to the
game you're able to still findthe right move But

Abaan (48:23):
will, I want to say something that will speak to
you.
In this spot you're talkingabout, yeah, you'll be in
constant new positions, butsometimes, if you practice
enough, you'll be in positionsthat you've seen exactly before,
and then you just like, Don't doanything and you conserve your
aura, bro.
You just literally just play itlike you practiced out exactly
how you saw it, and you justbeat them for free cause you
like, you've seen the entireending.

(48:43):
Because I think that Pokemon atsome level is kind of like chess
engines, where it's like depth.
Like people, like, if you cansee like four turns into the
future, You, like, are super,super favored to win, right?
So when you're in a position youpractice, you're already in,
like, a pre loaded, like, Depth5 position.
You already know exactly what'sgonna happen, you play it out,
you win, you conserve thethinking for the next round, and
then, you can, like, be morecreative when new spots come up.

Liam (49:06):
Yeah, dude.
This was this was something Iwas just telling a kid yesterday
When it comes to like, depth, Ithink that's like, also, you
know, on this idea ofinnovating, this was the exact
speech I gave, the idea is this,or like, your depth determines,
or like, allows you to innovate,or yeah, allows good players to

(49:28):
innovate early on, right?
Like, one of the, one of thebiggest mistakes I see, like,
Newer players make is they justtry to trade even when they're
losing like a good player willnever ever do that And that's
why you see all of these wackygames from good players because
as soon as they go down toprizes They're like they're not
hitting with their main attackeranymore.
They're just like Figuringsomething out, and they're doing
something really, really weirdand really jank to like, somehow

Abaan (49:51):
Gimp your engine, something,

Liam (49:53):
fixing.
Yeah, right, like, exactly.
Something non standard asopposed to just trading all the
way down into a losing spot.
And like, this happens like,super early on.
This is like, 6 4, and like,that creates time as, as like, a
resource for them to come back.
And that's why you see like, somany weird games at the top
tables, whereas at like, thebottom tables, everything is
like, always following like, thestandard progression.

Abaan (50:14):
And, like, a lot of times, good players can put
words to what they were thinkingand stuff, like, if they wanted
to, But if you're actually, ifyou were able to like, you know,
be a fly on the wall, like intheir brain, it's not that
complicated.
They're definitely not thinkinglike, oh no, like, six of four,
like this, this, this, they'rejust like, it's just obvious.
Like it's just obvious that thisposition is not going to work
out if you just, yeah, I mean,you can call it aura if you

(50:36):
want.
The point is like, it's, thepoint is like, yeah, it's just
obvious to anyone who's like, Idon't think I've played this
game enough, so it's like, oh, Imean, I can't progress down this
path,

Liam (50:46):
Yeah, dude, that's like one of the most important things
you should be working on as likea newer player.
Like, if you have access tosomebody better than you, and
most people do, unless you'relike Tord like, you should be,
you should be thinking aboutpositions and like, hopefully
like consulting this playerbetter than you on their opinion
on those positions as well.
Like, you should be selfevaluating how good your board

(51:07):
is.
And like, whether or not you'rewinning, because that's like,
that's probably the biggestfactor in determining, like,
which routes you should betaking, like whether or not
you're winning.
You know, I think people like,mis evaluate this like, all the
time, and it's really hard to doand it takes like, a ton of
experience,

Abaan (51:22):
and, another

Liam (51:23):
like,

Abaan (51:24):
oh, I was gonna say, another thing that I think a lot
of people get focused on, that Ithink is wrong, is I feel like I
don't consider the micro aspectsof playing Pokemon at all, like,
when I'm just, I just, that partcomes naturally, like, Ultra
Ball?
What am I gonna Ultra Ball away?
I don't think that hard at all,like, it's just, It's just
natural right?
The things that I'm thinkingabout during my turns and stuff
is like, very macro concepts.
It's like, oh I need to do thisthis turn, and then like, I

(51:46):
don't even know what happens inbetween like, the start of my
turn and the end of my turn, butjust like, I'm naturally just
playing cards and like, tryingto reach that end goal, and
like, I feel like I see newerplayers, like outlying locals
and stuff, get super, like, hungup on, like, stupid things that
don't matter, like, or, Sure,you shouldn't ultra all the way
two important cards, like, butit shouldn't be that hard to
know what's important, and itshould just be, like, a rip,

(52:07):
like, Ultra ball, discard thesetwo, like, they don't have macro
plans, and I, I think it'sbecause a lot of their decisions
are, like, locked in on, like,What is my next action gonna be?
Like, what is the literal nextcard I'm playing?
Which is, like, not a good wayto, like, think about it, I
think.

Liam (52:23):
yeah, I assume Cam is thinking this right now, so I'll
just say it for him.
I think, I think for a lot ofnewer players, it's because it's
not automatic, like, for, forpeople with like, more
experience, like You know, youcan just, you can just tell what
the bad cards are, but like,newer players, they like, they
have like short term memory losswhen it comes to this stuff,
like, they forget what the cardsin their hand like, even do, so
they have to like, you know,like, you have to read it, and

(52:45):
then you ultra Oh, I, that islike, that seems kind of good, I
guess.
Oh, maybe I should ultra ballit, and then like, that's like
where all their thinking goes.
Like, you, you, you,

Cam (52:52):
like, they're just thinking for the turn.
There's just so many times.
I don't know, I remember justone game that really sticks out.
I was playing against Keon inlike the finals of a cup.
And Keon Amini is a really goodplayer.
And just someone came up to meafterwards and they're like, Why
don't you do this and this?
And I just like, while I wasjust sitting there with Keon, I
was like, well if I do that,then Keon just needs to hit this

(53:13):
and this and this and I lose thegame outright.
But, so it's just like, itdoesn't matter like.
Like, that, that progression,that playstyle, like that game
plan, moving that way, I justlose no matter what.
We're, we're headed to a deadend of me losing.
Like, here I have a chance, it'snot a great chance, and I just
think, like, people, especiallyas you get to the mid game, and

(53:35):
like, you haven't, like, figuredout, like, those small things
that have happened in the earlygame, that now, like, heading
into the late game, like,there's only, there's, like,
only one line for you to win,or, like, you need to hope that
they miss sometimes people don'ttake that into account, and
they're just like, I'm just usedto doing these things on this
progression chart, and I'm justgonna do it, because that's

Abaan (53:55):
And one aspect that's, like, irreplaceable from
practice is, like, the abilityto estimate the likelihood of
different things happening.
Like, if you just have playedagainst a deck enough, you can
estimate, like, what is the mostannoying thing.
Like, is it more annoying for meto kill their Manaphy and make
them find Rod Ball?
Or is it more annoying for me tokill their Attacker and make
them find more Energies?
Or, like, is it more annoying tokill their Engine and Iono and,

(54:15):
like, make them find Gust Raw?
Like, there's so, like, And Ithink that Pokemon is too
complex to give real percentagesthat are like, mathematically
proven, right?
So you kind of do just need tolike, have like a feel, like of
like, oh, I mean, this isclearly harder to get.

Cam (54:31):
And I think that's what I do a lot in coaching, is like,
the kids will ask me, Hey, sowhat should I do in this
position?
It's like, we're here in theendgame, so much is predicated
on like, you need to ask to seethe discard, you need to ask to
see what's in the loss zone,like, you need to see what's
left, it's like, so much ispredicated off of like, what has
been used up to this point, andwhat is remaining, and that

(54:52):
like, Like, that's what's gonnadecide it, like, 90 percent of
the time what is correct, or ifnot even 100 percent of the
time, what is the correct playto go to.
And then it's just like, they'rejust thinking, like, oh, I just
do this every single time.
It's like, no, you can't just doX thing every single time,
because every Pokemon game isdifferent.
Every, like, like the path to,every path to get there is not
always the same.

Abaan (55:14):
Yeah, if you could, you could boil this game down to a
flowchart.
The problem is the flowchartwould be like, like, HUNDREDS OF
THOUSANDS OF PAGES LONG, like,like, there'd be small ass,
like, very, like, differentissues, like, Oh, dang, this
mission's actually completelyunique because of the extra
switch card they had to burn toget here.
So, like, that's actually, like,a whole different tree that we
have to take now, because he's,like, down to one, er, he's down

(55:36):
to zero switch cards.
That's often a big win conditionagainst Lostbox.
Like, oh, they're down to zeroswitch cards, so, like, I can do
certain things.
Like, maybe I can hit theirthing for 220, and then Monkey
Dory kill it next turn.
Like, if I'm playing Guardi orsomething random, like, like,
there's just certain trees that,like, the most niche thing, but,
like, I mean, you can't controlit when you're playing Lostbox.
Like, what switch you're gonnadraw.
Like, sometimes all the switchesyou see are switch cards.

(55:57):
Like, it happens.

Liam (55:59):
yeah.
Lostbox like running out ofresources, like, that happens
basically like every game I playagainst Lostbox players that are
not like world class, they runout of some resource.
Like, they just do.
And that's like always somethingthat you can like exploit to
create some winning chances.
Marcos Cifuentes, he never ranout of anything.
Well, the stuff he ran out ofbecame irrelevant.

(56:21):
He just Ah, ah, ah.
Aura! Oh, the cards are good! Ohmy god.
Yeah, so he's tough.
But, yeah, you should, youshould be, people should be
checking discards a lot.
Like,

Cam (56:34):
Or

Liam (56:35):
people don't do that enough.

Cam (56:36):
another way to do this is like something I did when I
played Alex Dramansky is hemulliganed a couple times
against me, and I just saw like,electric energy, I saw Earthen
Vessel.
I think at some point early on,like, he flashed, like, another,
I think he, oh, he flashedThornton.
I think, like, he discarded withan Ultra Ball.
And in my mind, I was just like,Bro, there's so many tech cards

(56:56):
here that I've seen that arejust not standard.
I'm gonna make a bet that youdon't play Fluttermane.
Because you're playing all theseother cards.
I'm just gonna make a RIP calland just like try to RIP you
like and I did that and thenafter game one he doesn't play
to it and it's like okay now Ijust I just read you I just
ripped the game off you I'm justhave to do the same thing again
and I started thorns again andit's just like oh you can just

(57:18):
make a call sometimes and likeyou just have to base your gut
off of it and like sometimes itwon't work but if you if you
call it right you're just likeoh I just have you and you just

Abaan (57:27):
Free wins are the most valuable thing,

Liam (57:29):
in the world though, is when you hit like some absolute
teched out fiend and you seelike seven tech cards that are
non standard and you're likedude you had to make space for
this somehow and you like betthat they cut something and then
they drop it too you just loseit's like the worst feeling in
the world

Cam (57:46):
Yeah.

Liam (57:47):
yeah i mean those people always get punished in the long
run because you know you

Abaan (57:50):
I don't know, if you look at Japan, it's like the peak of
that though, right?
Like in Japan, they do all that,and then they have room for
like, whatever the card you'rethinking of, they got it
somewhere.
And then they just win.

Liam (58:02):
they bench like palkia turn one and then you're like
you You take a KO and they getlike stamped EHAMMER GIFT and
you're like, oh damn, all right.

Cam (58:12):
Oh, damn! Wasn't expecting that from ChenVal, but I guess I

Abaan (58:20):
That is actually crazy, I'm imagining that right now.
I would be unbelievablytriggered, like, I think I I'd
have to go walk or something,that is crazy work.

Liam (58:29):
right?

Abaan (58:30):
It's it's always that though, man, they always got
that 1x3.
They're like, damn bro, there'sno way you can have this, and
then they hit you

Liam (58:37):
Yeah.
Yeah,

Abaan (58:39):
say that's the only part of best of three I like, which
is why my suggestion, which Ithink is going to be probably
poorly received though, is Iwant to play best of one open
decklist.
Because I don't like, like, Ithink the only reason it's
acceptable that you can gimppeople with your stupid tech
card is that, in theory, you canplay two to three games.
Like, if you're playing a fastdeck with some gimpy tech card
and then you just lose the nexttwo, like, That's lit, right?

(59:01):
So, or at least, like, that's,like, more fair to me.
Because then, like, you canstill win your game 2 or 3 with,
like, standard, but at least nowI get a chance to know about
your stuff.
So I'd rather just best of 1open decklist and have, like,
the most gigabrain game 1 ever.

Liam (59:14):
I, I would have disagreed like, maybe like a year or two
ago, because I think a reallybig part of the game right now,
and I think, I think it's likesomewhat skill intensive, and it
rewards like card knowledge, isbeing able to like, have
accurate guesses as to like,what is the chances your
opponent plays like X, Y, or Zand often like multiple cards at

(59:35):
the same time.
However, I think that's likelargely been removed in high
level matches, Especially inlike a one sided way because
like it turns out like one guywas on stream in round 12 and
now the other guy just like hashis 60 and and the the first guy
doesn't.
And like that kind of imbalanceis just like so easily solved by
Open Decklist and then it ofcourse has the the benefit that

(59:57):
Obann mentioned.
And so

Abaan (59:59):
I also think inherently, we're not playing a symmetric
game, and a lot of our thoughtshave to be, like, revolved
around it not being symmetric.
Should the fact that your deckdoesn't have gimmicky one offs
be a disadvantage to you?
Like, if you choose to play a 60that's extremely consistent with
no text and 4 of, like,everything, like, Why sh should
you really ban an event becauseyour opponent like plays like
that one of like, I don't know,Defiance ban that you didn't

(01:00:21):
expect and they catch you, likeAnd in a deck that never plays
Defiance Men, they just decidedto wake up one day and throw it
in there, right?
I think that's not somethingthat necessarily has to be
rewarded, and I always try tomake sure you don't punish the
person not doing anything wrong,right?
And I think the person who isjust playing a standard list
that isn't trying to get cheesywins and believes it's going to

(01:00:42):
win, like, perfect knowledge,high level games, that person
isn't doing anything wrong andshouldn't have to deal with the
inherent EV loss of just like,oh, sometimes I'm going to lose,
like Random nonsense, and like,I'm gonna have to take the next
two games fast.

Liam (01:00:55):
sure.
I don't, I don't have like apreference towards like, oh,
like if you're doing XYZ youshould be like rewarded or
unrewarded, I think these arejust like things that naturally
kind of come with it, but yeah,I mean, losing to to random
garbage is always prettytilting, right?

Cam (01:01:12):
Yeah,

Liam (01:01:13):
anytime I see somebody complaining about that kind of
stuff, I'm like, jesus louisus,man, like, I think so many
people treat cards that theyhaven't seen before as like an
impossibility.
Like, they're like, okay dude,Roxanne's gone, I guess I'm just
gonna like, walk into secondRoxanne.
And like, you don't have to, butthey're just gonna do it anyway,
because they're like, nobodyplays two Roxanne.

(01:01:35):
And then like, they get two Roxsecond Roxanne, and they're
like, oh my god bro, the gamejust hates me, like I can't
believe this guy.
Even though like, they literallydid it to themselves.

Abaan (01:01:44):
I will say, a lot of times when I hear those stories,
I just think, like, Dude, thatguy could be on the crack 60,
and like, there's a real validreason to play 2 Roxanne, and
like, you are actually just likea stepping stone in his path of
people like, he was like,knowing that would get screwed
over by 2nd Roxanne, and like,in specific examples like that,
I don't feel too bad for them,but I do, do feel for people
when it's like, a card thattruly like, doesn't belong on

(01:02:06):
the deck, or like, has never,even if it belongs on the peak
version of the deck, like, ifit's never been seen before,
like, it's like, theirinnovation.
I I get that they're rewarded bywinning the game against you,
but it just feels terrible,like, maybe it was correct the
whole time, but like, it justsucks, like, it's the first time
you're ever seeing that card inthat deck, and they got you.

Liam (01:02:23):
Yeah, no, I mean, there's definitely, like, sometimes,
where, like, you're like,alright, dude, this is, like a 1
percent card in the deck, it'sin, like, 01 decks online, and,
so, I'll give it that kind ofcredit, and that, that means
that this other move is the bestplay, and you are making the
best play, and then you justget, like, giga punished, right?
There's definitely those casesas well.

Cam (01:02:43):
I mean, I think there's, like, I don't know, like, when
those situations come up, Ithink as a player, you should
also just think about it.
This is just, like, another oneof those things where people
just, like, Oh, there's no waythis person just plays this,
like, the standard, like, thisplays this.
And sometimes I'll just catchmyself during games, it's like,
Okay, so the only way I losehere is if this person If the

(01:03:03):
person plays a Roxanne and thenI think about it and it's like,
that might be crazy, but is itreally that crazy if someone
just randomly plays a Roxannelike this master and sometimes
you just have to make a read onthe player, like, I don't know,

Liam (01:03:15):
Yeah, bro, like, if they've been playing for it,
like, the whole game, like, youshould not walk into it, even if
you've never seen it before.
Alright,

Cam (01:03:22):
this is just another thing of just like people going on
autopilot and just like, oh, I'mjust assuming that you're going
to play like this and then like,you have to understand there's
like 2, 700 masters and like.
They're gonna be playing weirdsh weird stuff, they're gonna do
weird things, I don't know.

Liam (01:03:37):
we've been going for a solid hour now.
Yeah, we somehow got to the endof an hour with zero major
events.
Lasted like two weeks, but Ihope everyone enjoyed.

Abaan (01:03:47):
have a problem, bro, I promise

Cam (01:03:48):
Easy!

Liam (01:03:49):
Paul's our outro.
We will be somehow yapping abouteven more stuff next week.