Worlds now, worlds later, conquest testing results, and more!

Episode Transcript

Liam (00:05):
Welcome to the Trashlands podcast.
Attendance is, unfortunately forsome, 100%.
It is me, William Halliburton,Chinoy.
We're sponsored by DragonShield.
Dragon Shield's great.
We're using their sleeves in thefuture.
Cam knows.
We're the only Pokemon TCGpodcast.
My dad said I should say that,say that this time.
I think that's, that's it forthe intro.

Abaan (00:25):
I guess we should address the, the comments, you know?
Like, we are still gonna bethree kids who yap and use all
the, you know, the Zoomer terms,but we're gonna try to use some
more, like, full sentences, somesome stuff to cater to

Liam (00:36):
yeah, dude, I, the feedback I've gotten on the pod
is, like, directly related toAge, I think like if you're over
like 24 you're probablydissatisfied with the direction
the pod has taken.
And if you're under 24 the podsbecome, I think, more enjoyable.
But, you know, we'll see at, atleast based on my my feedback.

Abaan (00:54):
No, I've picked up on that too.

Cameron (00:56):
Unbelievable, the BFL is always going to come out, but
it

Abaan (01:00):
So do you want to get started with the rumors about
next year's Worlds format?
I think that's as good a placeto start as any.

Cameron (01:06):
bit.
That

Liam (01:06):
Yeah, for sure.

Abaan (01:08):
If anyone doesn't know, I think pretty much the whole
community is basing it off,like, King Dre's tweets, you
know?
And so, like, all I understoodfrom his from his rumors like
from like parsing those twitterthreads was just there's going
to be like some kind of top xformat for the each each region
so like i don't like the numbersaren't even like disclosed but
let's say it's like top 128 fromlike every major region like NA,

(01:29):
EU, LATAM, etc.
and then there's going to belike different BFLs and like i
don't know i didn't really Muchmore than that.
That seemed to be like the gistof what people were getting
upset

Liam (01:39):
Yeah.
Wait, so do you know if it'sgoing to top X or no?

Abaan (01:44):
I mean, I don't know anything.
I'm just saying like, that'swhat

Liam (01:46):
Yeah, obviously not confirmed, but is that what the
rumors are?
It's

Abaan (01:49):
rumors are.
That's the word on the street.
Yeah, topics.
But in points, not like the oldschool ELO.
It'll be points.

Liam (01:57):
What are your opinions on this, Yvonne?

Abaan (01:59):
I think, okay, I think that the one part about it that
is very scuffed, is if the BFLsare not managed properly, I
think it'll be like, it's insanethat people can just like, fly
to everything and get it, and Ialso, as much as I think that
the world should probably be alittle smaller than a thousand
people, not a little smaller, Ithink it should be way smaller
than a thousand people I don'tlike any system where it's like,

(02:20):
You can do everything right, andat the very end, you're still
like, kind of battling withsomeone, and it's like, very,
like, it's very gimmicky,especially back in the day when
it was ELO, it was terrible,people would go like, 4 0 at
Nationals, and just have tolike, drop out, so I guess with
points, that's like, that, atleast that concern is
alleviated, but it's like, anykind of top back system, Like,
someone's gonna be top X plusone, right?

(02:43):
And like, that person, that justfeels terrible, right?
Like, at least with a threshold,there's like a goal in sight,
you can like, season plan, andlike, especially with ICs,
right?
Like, let's say you think thatthe threshold's gonna be X
amount, right?
And then at UIC, North Americajust has an insane showing, and
so like, All the points are justinflated, right?
It just, it can kind of justruin your whole, like, season

(03:03):
planning, like, out of nowhere,so I don't like, I like the idea
that, like, people who, like,are trying to manage their
finances can plan out theirseason and, like, reasonably
attain a World's Invite, but theother issue, though, is that,
like, maybe it's not that, it'ssupposed to be that easy to get
a World's Invite, right?
It's maybe, like, maybe youshould just play the, play the
game, like, on your own, like,however you want, and then just,
like, see if you get a World'sInvite at the end.

(03:23):
Maybe you don't need to, like,obsess about getting your
World's Invite.

Liam (03:26):
I think that's the biggest issue for me, is now you're
competing with people who have,like, access to a ton of
tournaments.
Like, they're directly competingfor the same spot as you, as
opposed to having, like, anunlimited number of spots.
Like, yeah, exactly, you're inthe situation where you're like,
say you're X, and X plus onedecides to book an emergency
trip to the Antarctica SPE, andyou get cooked out of invite

(03:49):
because of that?
That's like, that's like, gottabe like the worst feeling in the
world.
Like, you know, at the, at theend of the season or whatever,
you just get cooked by, by someguy going to like, An
unbelievable number of SPEsacross the world, that is
probably not great for, like, aWorlds invite structure.
The BFLs are, like, an attemptto fix that, but it doesn't
completely alleviate that.

(04:09):
They get better and moreopportunities to secure
championship points and thendirectly competing for the same
spot.
I don't think that's superhealthy.

Abaan (04:20):
I think my issue or like my thought to how to fix that
problem is like, first of all, Ithink SPEs, like in general, I
understand that they have to be,they have to exist in Europe for
like legal reasons, like basedon the fact they can't get
prizing and etc, etc.
Sure.
And like, it's kind of suckslike European, like European SPE
will probably be the samecaliber as like some of our
smaller regionals, right?
So it is kind of suck if we saidlike, okay, we're going to make

(04:41):
SPEs not worth anything.
But at the same time, like somerandom place like exactly the
Antarctic SPE, like the CapeTown okay, I shouldn't, like,
actually name real places, but,like like, anyway, some of these
SPEs are, like, pretty free and,like, it's, like, an open
secret, like, that it's superfree and, like, some players
that would never ever get afinish at a like, a normal
tournament would, like, pop offat their S at the random SPE,

(05:02):
right?
And, like and, like, it's soweird that as the SPEs at the
end of the tournament Mightactually become like, so
ridiculous that people will justbe like flying in from nowhere
And it's like, you don't want toforce people at the end of the
season to have to be in thiscrazy panicked rush to like get
these last couple points.
So I think the BFL has to belike Extremely tight so that you
can actually like reasonably getmax out your like reasonable

(05:22):
finishes like you can be likeokay I have four top 32s or
better at regionals like that'stotally like that's it I'm
locked like I don't have to likeI don't have to sweat it at all
about this end of the end of theyear stuff

Liam (05:34):
Yeah, I agree.
I will say the one thing thoughthe saving grace for me is the
auto invite system.
Hopefully it gets extended alittle bit from first place at
regionals and finals at ics.
But like that is like, that isthe most wonderful thing in the
world to me.
You can go to one regional andthen you win it and you have
your invite.

(05:55):
You don't have to go to moreevents.
It's like so amazing and it'slocked up for sure.

Abaan (05:58):
imagine the top X system is actually extremely tight.
It's like, 64 people but itpasses down and there's auto
invites, and then they actually,or maybe it's not even 64, maybe
like, let's take it even like32, but then they make like
regionals, like top 4 is like,you're it.
The world's like, what if it waslike that?
And it's just, 32 is just like,ladder in case you like, somehow
got like,

Liam (06:17):
Yeah, I, I think something like that would be, would be
like pretty cool.
Like give a very, very smallmargin for like consistency
quals, right?
Like if you just, if you neverbreak through and you're like
always on the verge of gettinglike an auto invite at like
every event throughout the year,sure, you get a consistency
invite, but then like theprimary method for invites is

(06:40):
top X at a regional or top X atan

Abaan (06:42):
What's the highest placement you can get a regional
without being skilled, do youthink?
I, I don't know, like, I, I'mvery curious.
Curious.

Liam (06:50):
consistency is what defines defines results.
Like anybody can make

Abaan (06:54):
So like, do you think worlds would become, on average,
more skilled if you did thissystem?
Like, let's say you made it top4, like, I think there's a lot
of, like, frauds who've top 4'edregionals.
Like, I think worlds would justbe just as diluted as it is now.

Liam (07:04):
No, I, I wouldn't say that.
I think I, I'd say first of all,having a top cut experience
changes you forever, like that,that is like a really important
experience as a player.
And like I, I think a lot ofpeople

Cameron (07:18):
It's pretty

Liam (07:19):
they lose in their first top cuts like.

Cameron (07:21):
I think everybody,

Abaan (07:22):
It happens.

Liam (07:23):
it's like a, it's a different experience because
it's, it's usually in a time, atime structure that you've never
played before.

Cameron (07:29):
Exceptions, right?

Liam (07:30):
and then like, you know, they get to their first sudden
death, and I, I think everybodywhen they play their first
sudden death, they just getcooked.
Like, they actually just likewalk into it.
Like, you know, some people ofcourse, there are exceptions,
right?
But that's like a, a very commonstory.
So I, I think like,

Cameron (07:45):
it's just a

Liam (07:46):
I, I think it's just a different feeling, like when you
sit across from somebody atWorlds and you're like, This guy
top cut a regional, as opposedto like, I think this guy went
to like all three ICs orsomething, because I've never
heard of him before.
Like,

Cameron (07:57):
never heard that before.
But, I,

Liam (07:59):
I think that would be like

Cameron (08:00):
I think that's

Liam (08:01):
I think that's something positive for Worlds, when
you're, you know, the people youstare across from are like, you
know, names that have done verywell, and you've seen like on
the results page,

Abaan (08:11):
I think generally, Pokemon players have a kind of
loser mindset, like, if someonetold me their world's special
and they were like, yo, and thenthey looked at my season, which
honestly I thought my season waspretty mid, even after the LA
top 8, I think it was prettymid, like, if someone told me
that wasn't good enough, doesn'tcut it, you don't make worlds,
like, That's totally acceptable,like, I just have to get better,
right?
And like, I wouldn't, I, ingeneral, just don't believe in

(08:33):
qualifying, or like, complainingabout any kind of qualifying
structure, because if they toldme that, like, the top four
players in the world, that's it,that's what Worlds is, I'll be
like, okay, well, I either amthe top four player in the
world, or like, I didn't makeit, like, it's not like, I think
it's kind of ridiculous to,like, like, Worlds, you It's
like, can be as big or as smallas it wants, like, you should
just play, like, play to win thetournament you're playing in,
and then, like, at the end ofthe season, they'll just tell

(08:54):
you if you made it or not, like,I don't think you have to, like,
I don't think you have to makeworlds, and, like, no one's
entitled to making worldsbecause they went to, like, X
amount of tournaments, like, if,if they make it smaller, and
then you don't make it, Ipersonally think that's, That's
fine, like, I, I think that youshould just, like, work and
prove yourself, try to win thesetournaments, like, winning a
regional in itself is, like,pretty sick, like, why does

(09:15):
regionals have to, like, whydoes, like, why does it have to
be a pipeline into worlds, like,if,

Liam (09:20):
Yes.

Abaan (09:21):
you know, like, just try to win the tournament you're
playing, like, it's not aboutbeing a CP event, you know?

Liam (09:26):
Yeah, the Worlds mentality is like, that is probably the
most cooked mentality in theworld.
The John Aang had a tweet aboutthis, he was like, y'all are so
world's built, it's crazy.
He's not lying.
I think, what is it, I, but I, Ithink the question of how you
want worlds to be structured,of, like, whether or not you

(09:46):
want it to be like a Pokemonconvention, where like, people
go to have like, you know, areally fun Pokemon centric
experience as opposed to, like,you know, a hyper competitive
event for the best of the best.

Cameron (09:58):
respect for the

Liam (09:59):
is, like, the question you have to ask when you're deciding
the world structure.
So it's really weird to me tosee people not propose

Cameron (10:05):
other way, and,

Liam (10:06):
the alternative, which is making worlds more accessible.
Like, I think I'd have a lotmore respect for the people who
said I don't want it to be,like, a hyper competitive event
that has less people going, ifthey said, if they then went the
other way and, like, actuallyargued basically upon the
principle that they want worldsto be more accessible and said,
like, we need to make worlds alot easier to access for where,

(10:28):
like, you can go by justattending locals, or by just
signing up and actually makingit, like, you know, an open
Pokemon convention.
I think,

Abaan (10:36):
To me though, my biggest issue though, we have so many
Pokemon, like, I feel likeevery, like, I.
C.
E.
regional is such a spectacle,right, like, there just needs to
be one invite only tournament,right, like, and like, I
actually think, like, onepotential idea I had the other
day was, like, there could justbe more invite only stuff, like,
Let's say you, like, I don'tknow, like, kind of like the
magic system, where it's like,oh, okay, maybe, like, states or

(10:58):
something feed into, like,regionals, and regionals, like,
they feed into, like, somebigger

Liam (11:01):
tear it up.

Abaan (11:02):
yeah, actually, like, tier it up, like, why does every
single tournament except Worldshave to be open, and then it
just feels, like, It's like ahuge jump, like, either worlds
is like, too easy, and you'relike, well, I just got it on
accident, right, like, whatever,or it's like, way, way, way too
hard, and then people are like,frustrated that they were not
able to like, get it even aftertraveling an extensive amount,
right, like, I don't know, Ithink that like, if there was

(11:22):
just a tournament below worldsthat was like, invite only, but
it was like, the invite is like,the way people want the worlds
invite to be now, then like,that would be lit, like, people
would just be like, feel like,feel something, like, oh, I did
well at regionals, now I get toplay in like, regionals plus.

Liam (11:36):
Yeah.
I agree.
I think, I think there should bemore.
Invite only tournaments, becausethose are, those are fun to
compete in, those are fun towatch, and, and they make the
events, like, more unique.
I think ICs are like, they feelmore similar to regionals than
they do to worlds.
But I, I think it should be theother way around.

Abaan (11:56):
The only thing about ICs, the only way they're even
maintaining the gimmick isbecause they don't really, they
make sure the IC is like on anew format, like that's the way
they like, are trying to makeICs feel special, but I think
that's like, kind of sucks too,like you, you don't, I don't
like that ICs are always a newformat, that's like my own
personal thing, I just,

Liam (12:12):
I, I love new formats.
Play playing in new formats is,is wonderful.
I, I love the experience.
I I love playing in customformats, so I don't, I don't
share the same sentiment.
I think it's a, I think it's agreat thing that they're on new
formats.
But yeah, I, I do agree thatthere should be

Abaan (12:28):
do you

Liam (12:28):
like a little bit more differentiation.

Abaan (12:30):
do you think there should be an expectation that you have
to go to multiple ICs if youexpect to qualify for Worlds?
Do you think that's like anacceptable, reasonable, I think,
I think so too, I think youshould just be able to do it
from your own region's IC andthat's, that's good enough,
right?

Liam (12:41):
I, I, I think there should be like a clear pipeline.
of, like, local player toworlds.
Like, there should be, like, astronger pipeline.
Like, somewhat like you saidearlier with, like, tiering and
stuff like that, but, like, youwin a state, then you win a
regionals, then you win, like, anational event or international

(13:02):
event, and then you make worlds.
Like, I think, I think thereshould be, like, somewhat of a
system in place to where you canmake jumps like that that are
more reasonable, as opposed to,like, You jump from basically
either nothing or going forworlds, because that's like the
only the only thing you have.

(13:24):
If you're talking about worlds,like, you have to jump to
either, like, basicallyattending a ton of events, or
just being cooked.
Like, it's like a big jump youhave to make being like a
competitive player or notsomewhat as opposed to being
like, you know, a locallycompetitive player.
Larger and larger jumps.

Abaan (13:42):
Cameron do you want to say anything before we move on?
To, like, maybe this year'sformat or something.

Cameron (13:48):
I'm just, I'm the old man, dude, like, I'm just gonna
do whatever they give.
I don't think if 256, looking atthe numbers, like, top 256 is
not a terrible number.
I only Yeah,

Abaan (14:01):
Actually,

Liam (14:02):
Yeah.

Cameron (14:03):
I mean, that's, it is what it is, I mean, giving that
a top 256, giving it a top 128,I don't think either of those
are fine you wouldn't even bemissing out on a lot of people
who got their invite this year,maybe like, 10 so it keeps it
about the same.

Liam (14:18):
Also, also, I want to clarify, I think the reason
that, like, one would say that anumber is too big, because it
is, it is somewhat subjective,right?
Like, too big versus too small.
There's not, like, like, why doyou feel that way?
I think the reason that I, Ifeel like the current number
that we have now is, like, toobig, is because there's a lot of
players who are not particularlygood who make worlds and I, I

(14:39):
think worlds should be highquality play you know, like, the
highest quality of play inPokemon, and I think that would
be better served by cutting outsome of the players who are
currently attending, I guess.

Abaan (14:48):
like, that sounds like, I think that that seems like, oh,
like, that's your, like, elitisttake or whatever, but I think
the one factor that peoplearen't talking about is that if
Worlds is diluted, there will besome people who are going
through the complete gauntlet towin Worlds.
Like, it's like a completebanger every single round.
It's like round one I playedTord, and then I played Azul,
and then I played, like, Grant,and now I'm, like, two and one.
Where some guy's gonna play,like, three straight people who,

(15:10):
like Kind of squeaked in,doesn't really like, isn't very
good, and that guy's like gonnabe 3 0, and like, it's like, if
you can at least eliminate likesome of like the, like the
bottom feeders, I guess, orwhatever, then like,
theoretically the world's like,every round should be like very
difficult.
At least like, no one should begetting like some like walk in
paths like, into like 8 0,right?

(15:32):
Like, or like, you just like endup beating like five like kind
of mid players, had a goodmatchup against a couple top
players, and then you're like 71, like that's crazy, no?
Like, I think it's just unfairthat some people will have to go
through the gauntlet,essentially, and like, some
people will just be, like,playing, like, those randoms.

Liam (15:46):
Yeah, I mean, but I, I think that argument exists at
like every level, like there's,you know, some guy has to play
like the top four players in theworld, like even if you made it
like this top 32 system, someguy has to play the four best
players in the world back toback to back, and some other guy
has to play like 29, 30, 31, 32.
Like there is some, like,difficulty disparity, but I get

(16:08):
what you're saying, and I think,I mean, it ultimately does come
down to, like, you know, there'ssome, like, not super great
players at Worlds, and, like,

Abaan (16:16):
Sure, but I think the difference between the 29th best
player in the world and the 4thbest player in the world, sure,
obviously there's like a hactually a huge difference, but
the thing is that, like, the29th player in the best player
in the world is not, like, afree win, by any

Liam (16:26):
yeah, and I know that, like, that's good Pokemon being
played, right?
Like, that's a really strongplayer.

Cameron (16:34):
I don't know,

Abaan (16:35):
What do you think about this year's Worlds format, by
the way?
Oh, sorry.

Cameron (16:38):
I mean, I just disagree, like, there's, I think
it is an elitist take.
Like, I don't know, when youthink about it, there are strong
players that just squeaked in.
Cameron Kawasaki needed a top64.
Now, is he a top 30 player inthe world?
No.
And like, could you, like,

Abaan (16:55):
He didn't go to enough stuff, though.

Cameron (16:57):
Yeah, he didn't go to a lot of stuff.

Abaan (16:59):
Like, sure, so, like,

Cameron (17:00):
but there's always players like that, and it's just
like, so what, that means youhave to, If there is no BFL or
whatever it is, like, it shouldbe even less, and then it just
becomes really, like, even moreof a spam on, like, how many
events you go to, can you justspam and, like, get a high
placement because you went toeverything.
Instead of giving a realisticexpectation to someone who is in

(17:23):
university and is a good playerand just guess what, like, they
don't have a job right now, sothey can't travel to everything,
like, is that, do you want tojust weed out fields of talent
just because of a situation thatthey're in?
Like, I don't think there's areason to when, if you're still
having a solid player, yeah,maybe not everyone's like this
super stellar, like, you know,Amazing stream player that

(17:46):
everyone knows, but liketypically they're pretty solid.
If they got to worlds right as abaseline now,

Abaan (17:52):
I just think, okay,

Liam (17:53):
Bro,

Cameron (17:54):
yes.

Liam (17:54):
know if that's true anymore,

Abaan (17:56):
in order to let that person in, you have to let in,
like, hundreds of other people.
So it's like, sometimes it'slike, it's one of those things
where you have to just, like,

Cameron (18:05):
and it's also like, it's, and it realistically,
like, that's not Pokemon's goal.
It's to grow the scene, not tolimit it.
It's to they barely.
Yes.
The kids are finally having daytwos.
Do you think they're gonna tryto limit

Liam (18:17):
Yeah, but dude, I don't know why, I don't know why
people act like the way you growthe scene is by handing out
invites to, like, as many peoplethat want them.
I don't know why

Cameron (18:26):
it, it is it, it is.

Liam (18:28):
the way you grow the scene.

Cameron (18:30):
it absolutely is.

Abaan (18:31):
it is a way to grow the scene, Shinoi, but it's like,
we're saying, like,fundamentally, it's like,

Cameron (18:36):
Yes, it's a pure numbers thing for Pokemon.
If you're not looking at it fromtheir point of view, you're
looking at it from a competitor.
I want to feel good aboutmyself, the best about myself,
because I want to only competeagainst the highest level of
people.
They want 200 kids.
Oh, it's growing.
Just hand out these invites.
End up playing when they'readults and then they end up just

(18:58):
staying when they're adults andyou get people who are lifelong
Pokemon players at any everydifferent level who are buying
Pokemon products who are makingthem billionaires like you're
looking at it at a differentpoint of view that is just
unfortunately

Liam (19:12):
Yeah, well,

Cameron (19:13):
like Pokemon won't do like it

Liam (19:15):
recognize that it grows the scene, but I don't know why
people act like it's, like, thebest way or the only way to grow
the scene.

Cameron (19:22):
yes but it's also it's it's it you're right but it's
just not Pokemon like this isonce again the old man take of
like it just doesn't like itLike, what the company wants is
very different, and that'sunfortunately, like, just the
reality of the situation.
Like, this is Pokemon, year inand year out, we know this to be
them from decades.

Abaan (19:44):
I think, yeah, no one's, to be honest, like, no one's
actually saying that Pokemon'sgonna do anything we're
suggesting.
Like, it just, like, the mainpoint I was just making is that,
like, that belief that you havethat's coupled with, like, world
invites, the world needs to beas big as possible because,
like, the team needs to growand, like, people are not going
to play the game if the worldinvites are too hard to get.
That is, like, such a, like,that is, I think the only reason
people think that is because ofthe status quo.

(20:05):
It's hard to take something frompeople who, like, have got it
now.
Like, in the same way we weretalking, like, Like, it's a
really crazy analogy, but like,we're talking about like, when
we add cards to decks that arelike, that feel good, like, oh
man, I really like a secondboss, right?
Oh, now I have second boss.
And then, you never had secondboss before, but then when you
want to take out second boss,you're like, freaking out,
you're like, bro, like, how canI play the game without second
boss?
Like, that's how I feel aboutall these World's Invite takes,

(20:27):
it's like, yeah, everyone gotthe World's Invite, now we can't
take it away.

Cameron (20:31):
I think the important part to note also is the
percentage of people who gotinvites.
Like, like, when you considerthe amount of percentage, and
you can skew data anyway to makeit look good, but I think
there's only like less than 1percent of people who got
invites.
Went for a Worlds invite, like,actually got one.
I

Abaan (20:49):
Went for World's Invite, meaning

Liam (20:50):
Dude, when for a world somebody's way different.
I think

Cameron (20:52):
yeah, who just got CP.
Yeah, sure, you can

Liam (20:54):
bro, if you look at the, did you see the Nico Alavas
tweet?
Oh, yeah.

Cameron (20:59):
there's a certain amount of people.
You can skew data anyway, it'sjust like, there's more players
than ever, so yeah, the amountof players at Worlds is gonna be
more if the number is just aline threshold.
Like, maybe that's why they goto top whatever it is, because,
like, with the advent of justcontinuing to increase in size

(21:19):
of events, like, they can't holdworlds without it growing to
like 2, 000 people eventually,right?

Abaan (21:26):
But they clearly see that there's a prestige problem,
right?

Cameron (21:29):
mean it's gonna be

Liam (21:30):
every, every other competitive event doesn't skew
their events, like, Make itlarger, I think, like, based on
the number of players

Cameron (21:36):
no, so they might be they might be saying top 256 and
that's it, and other regionslike top 16, like whatever it
is, like just setting bars, 128,like, that might be A better way
to do it, honestly, it might notfeel fair, cause you're, you're
Racing against someone else, butit's a way to keep worlds a
particular size, if that's theirgoal too.

Abaan (21:59):
I think the point I, like, I think I don't like is
that what Pokemon is or isn'tdoing has nothing to do with,
like, what's correct, right?
Like, Pokemon is making adecision, right?
And they clearly alreadyrecognized that they had a
problem.
Because the old day one, day twosystem, where they gave out day
one invites to anyone with apulse, and then day two invites
were, like, completelyimpossible to get unless you,
like, flew across the wholeworld, and, like, made, like,
like, went to, like, everysingle tournament, it was, like,

(22:22):
that was clearly bad.
And they recognized, like, oh,we should make worlds harder,
and then just make it one day,right?
And, like, I think people were,like, Every every time that
Pokemon sets, like, somethreshold and people make it,
and then people are like, Oh,this is too easy, everyone's,
like, always loves to fall backto the argument, like, Oh,
that's what Pokemon said, right?
But, like, if Pokemon came outtomorrow and said, like, okay,
There's the world's gonna beeight people.

(22:43):
We're just gonna pick the eightbest players.
Would you guys then be like,well, that's what world is,
like, that's what Pokemon wants?
Like, Pokemon, like, whateverthey say, it doesn't it doesn't
have any, like, It doesn'tmatter what Pokemon does, that
doesn't affect our conversationon like, what the world should
be

Liam (22:57):
Yeah, bro.
People's status quo classes arelike actually so crazy.
They're just

Cameron (23:01):
Or it's just

Liam (23:02):
whatever Pokemon says,

Cameron (23:03):
Or it's just the idea that like Or it's just the idea
that like you can talk about itas much as you want.
It doesn't change anything.
Like it okay, great, fantastic.
You can talk about it for like30 minutes on the content.
Like it doesn't matter becauseit doesn't change anything.
Like we know what Pokemon wantsand that

Abaan (23:20):
do we?
I mean, I'm excited for theseleaks though, I feel like these
leaks are gonna go crazy, likewhen they actually announce it,
and then like, it's gonna be socutthroat, and then everyone's
gonna, like, everyone has beensaying like, well, we should
just do it, cause that's whatPokemon's been saying, like, I'm
so excited for like, when thestatus quo just completely
changes, and everyone's gonnahave to like, cope that the
system's also goaded.

Cameron (23:40):
And not just like Once again, I just don't care what
the invite structure is, I thinkI'll get my invite.
If it

Abaan (23:48):
Nah, I

Liam (23:49):
I don't know if Shinoa is like that, but I

Abaan (23:50):
No, I respect

Liam (23:51):
the view mentality.

Abaan (23:52):
That's actually that's the only dude, the other thing,
bro.
Dude, did they not know?
Like, Top 4ing

Cameron (23:56):
was a top, if it was a top X amount, like, you can say
I spammed events.
I think I finished higher thanyou.
It doesn't matter that you won aregional.
Like, you better start going tostuff if it's top 128, Liam.
You can't just win an event andchill out all of a sudden.
Like, you gotta maybe

Abaan (24:11):
You literally

Cameron (24:11):
Okay, okay, but that's the one way you can do it.
You better win next time, or youmight have to go to locals.
My bad, Liam.

Liam (24:21):
maybe.

Cameron (24:22):
Might have to next year

Liam (24:23):
I'll be on the I'll be on the West Coast next year though,

Cameron (24:25):
Top 64 and Leah might be sweating it out.

Abaan (24:28):
Wait, Liam, you're moving to the West Coast?

Liam (24:31):
yeah.

Abaan (24:32):
Like, your, like, whole family?
Or, like, oh wait, you're

Liam (24:34):
no, for school, for school.
I mean,

Cameron (24:37):
Cali boy, Cali boy.

Liam (24:40):
I'll be I'll be in Oakland.

Abaan (24:42):
Trash Lunch Podcast Live, like, before, like, all these
tournaments.
Poor Sac.
I guess, do you guys have anythoughts about this year's
Worlds format, by the way?
I, like, just, like, before we,like, move on from Worlds
altogether.
I already, I guess we, like,kind of already addressed it,
but, like, I'm a,

Liam (24:56):
I think, I think a lot of people are, people are saying,
like I think the top cut isgoing to be, like, 921.
Right?

Cameron (25:04):
so, I, I inputted the other day, if you How many
people do we expect to

Liam (25:12):
Like a thousand.

Cameron (25:13):
at like

Abaan (25:14):
Just, just,

Cameron (25:15):
Should

Abaan (25:15):
think just leave it at a thousand, right?
Oh, sure.
I mean, I think a lot of peoplearen't gonna be able to afford
to go to Hawaii, and, like,they're gonna have to just,
like, not go.

Cameron (25:23):
But I'm just on a high end.
If we just like, as a high end,I think it would be It's 8
rounds day 2, right?

Abaan (25:35):
They like, they released their own spreadsheet

Cameron (25:37):
It's like eight rounds and then four rounds, right, and

Abaan (25:39):
Yeah, if it's 1250, then it'll be that, yeah.

Cameron (25:42):
Okay.
I have it right here.
I think 90, roughly 91 playersare expected to have a record of
18 match points or better

Abaan (25:55):
Okay, so 91, day 2, and then 4 more rounds to see top 8,
but

Cameron (25:58):
And then, and

Abaan (26:00):
hard to project asymmetric though, because
people can doctor that so hard.
Like, so

Liam (26:05):
Dude, the asymmetric, do you know if it works the same
way as it did for 2022 worlds?
Like, is it,

Abaan (26:12):
it's implied that it will, like, it'll be like,
they'll play a bracket, right?
Not

Liam (26:17):
that is like the worst thing ever, I

Cameron (26:19):
I think it currently says that eight

Abaan (26:21):
what do you want it to be?
They all play bracket to getinto 8th seed?
Or whatever?

Liam (26:25):
I, I, I think it's just brutal that like if nine through
16 have the same record, the guywho went like XO throughout the
entire event is forced to playtop, cut asymmetric, and then
get cooked

Abaan (26:37):
No, bro, there's no other way to do it.
It'll take too long, otherwise.
Like, there's no other properway to do asymmetric.
Like, yes, they could all fightit out for the 8th spot, but
that would take all day.
Because they couldn't do anymats simultaneously.

Liam (26:48):
I, I think that, I think that's a real issue, but I
don't, I don't think like, youknow, the guy who went XO should
be like, basically punished bygetting pushed into asymmetric
bro, like having no way to dodgethe asymmetric.
Seems

Abaan (27:02):
don't think there's gonna be that many people in cut.
That's my guess.

Cameron (27:05):
IT

Liam (27:05):
Yeah, I, I mean, obviously, but like, just
getting, getting pushed intoasymmetric is like the worst
feeling ever, bro.
I, like, it probably shouldn'tbe, right?
Like, it's, it's somewhat of an,like, an emotional, no, no logic
take, but I, that was me.
I got, I got pushed intoasymmetric and, like, you know,
you take the

Abaan (27:24):
Wait,

Liam (27:24):
like, ID in or something, like, I, I was, like, 6C, bro.
I was, I was the lowestresistance, x11, and then, so I
had to play a bunch of x2s.
And, I got, yeah, like, I mean,it just feels terrible when you
come in, like, at, like, I guesswhat would have been, like, a
locked record, and then you haveto play one more to, like,

(27:45):
determine if you get, like, 16thor top cut,

Abaan (27:49):
I mean, one way of looking at it though, is that
you can play, if you played yourif you knew the matchup in your
last round, you can kind ofdecide, like, do I want to take
my chances with, like, somerandom X2, or do I want to take
my chances and just beat thisguy right now?
And then also, you can audibleinto tying that guy if it's
looking real bad, like, so,

Liam (28:06):
I mean,

Abaan (28:07):
you might just want to play your last round at that
point.

Liam (28:09):
I think it is, like, a logically fine, it's just, like,
somewhat of a feels bad foreverybody who gets in at, like,
you know, XO, X1, XO2, like,like, one, two, three, four,
five,

Abaan (28:20):
And it's like, it depends, like, there's two ways
to min max these kind of things.
Do you want to minimize, like,the amount of people who feel
bad, or do you want to minimizethe worst feeling in the
tournament?
Because the guy who does, like,9th or 9th with the same record
as 8th probably feels the worstout of, like, any person in the
world, like, when that happens,right?
So, like, you can try tominimize that, or you can try to
minimize the number of peoplewho feel bad, like, I don't

(28:42):
know.
It's

Cameron (28:43):
Yeah,

Abaan (28:43):
depends on the like, what you're looking for.

Cameron (28:45):
mean if you've seen tournaments where like 10th is
decided by opponents opponents,like, that probably feels
terrible, like, you just, youfinish with the same record,
like, don't you feel like youshould have a chance?
Because,

Abaan (28:56):
I personally don't feel like that, because like,
normally when I like, have thesame record as 8th, I just feel
like, well, that's fine.
That's like, deserved.
Like, I didn't I didn't, like,have a good enough record to be
in Cut.
Like, one guy got lucky, not,like, a bunch of guys got
unlucky.
If I was the one person whobubbled out, that would feel
terrible.
Like, four people with my recordmade it in, and I'm just sitting
there at ninth?
That would feel bad, sure.

Liam (29:18):
is probably the worst feeling.

Abaan (29:20):
Yeah, that's way worse than, like, one guy Like, as far
as you're concerned, you neverhad a good enough record to make
Cut.

Liam (29:26):
I know, I think, yeah, exactly.
If there's like, if most peoplemiss, and like one guy squeaks
in, that's not you, that's like,you know, your record was just a
little subpar, but like if mostpeople hit, You have like you
know, you got to a record withlike an 80 percent chance to
win, or whatever.

Cameron (29:41):
bro, you're acting like 9, so it says right now that the
record to get in is 9 1 2.
And there might be a 9th person.
Like, subpar, at Worlds, like,you're crazy.

Abaan (29:55):
No, but like, not

Cameron (29:56):
Man, it's like, you went 9 1 2, you went 9 1 2, but
like, it was, you know, youjust, you bubbled out, my bad
guy.
You just kinda, you lost oneround.
You suck.
Like, what the f

Abaan (30:09):
enough, right, like, like, it's top 8 at

Liam (30:11):
I, I, like, like, what do you

Cameron (30:13):
and the funny thing is, no, and the thing is, it says
that, Like, 7th, 8th, and 9thwill have that record.
Like, that's fine! Like, 9 1 2,you had a good record, like, the
9th person doesn't deserve to becut out of that.

Abaan (30:26):
I'm seeing that with the knowledge in advance that it's
asymmetric, things will be veryweird, I, I, I don't believe
that it'll be 9 1 2, I, I'malmost certain it'll be 9 2 1,
if, if it's actually that closeto 9 1 2, like, things will just
work out differently, I actuallywonder though, if you're like,
sitting at 9 1 1, and like,you're pretty confident you
make, you will be in theasymmetric cut region, when you
like if you, like, lose, but butif you tie, like, you're, like,

(30:47):
50 50 in the region, like, areyou supposed to play?
Like, does it depend on thematchup?
Like, I wonder, like, what's thetop tables gonna be like?
Huh?

Cameron (30:54):
2 would be locked if

Abaan (30:55):
They might not be locked, they might have to still play
the asymmetric cutter, like, thepeople who, like, make it in
through asymmetric cut, right?
Like, the Liam situation,essentially.

Cameron (31:02):
Yeah, but I'd rather be

Abaan (31:04):
or 6th.

Cameron (31:05):
I might be,

Abaan (31:06):
You think you're

Liam (31:06):
Yeah, no, dude, it's cause, it's cause everybody else
who is X1

Cameron (31:10):
I think I

Liam (31:10):
have to play, bro.
I was the only

Cameron (31:12):
I would, I would think I would ID at that point,
because they're just like, well,I'm in top 8, and if I lose this
asymmetric cut, then like, I'm,

Abaan (31:20):
out on, like,

Cameron (31:21):
but like, but, but I'm not dropping out of top 16.
All of a sudden.

Abaan (31:26):
No, but if you lose that if you were able to ID, you
probably don't drop out of top16 with a loss, either.

Cameron (31:30):
Who knows, it depends on how close it is,

Abaan (31:32):
Yeah, of

Liam (31:33):
yeah, but, I think that's like the logical way to think
about it.
You basically just have to playlike one more round, unless
you're like the top seed orsomething

Abaan (31:43):
But, okay, but now, like, take it the other way, bro,
like, that means, like, you'regetting rewarded for actually
popping off at a tournament,and, like, actually getting your
top 8 spot, like, getting a buyin cut for, like, having a crazy
run.
Like, how many people go, like,12 0, and then they just, like,
lose in top 8?
I mean, they could still justlose in top 8, but at least they
didn't, like, go 12 0 and losein, like top 16, you know?
They got a, they got a buy.
Like, if you think about it ascut is top 16 now, and the top

(32:05):
seed just gets a buy into top 8,like, that's, like, crazy.
Pretty lit if you think about itlike that.

Liam (32:10):
I think that is

Abaan (32:11):
Just, it's just reframing

Liam (32:12):
lit.
Pretty lit.

Cameron (32:14):
player, the best player just gets to walk it.

Abaan (32:16):
Exactly.
Top six Yeah, they're doing atop 16 cutout worlds, but

Liam (32:19):
Yeah, no, I think, I think if you think about it as just
like an extra round, it's like,you know, it's a pretty logical
thing, right?

Abaan (32:27):
I think these

Liam (32:27):
Just, it feels bad, bro.

Abaan (32:28):
sure, I think these tournaments don't get too big to
like have like a top 8, like top16 was always like I don't know,
when I was a kid, it was likeTop 32, and like, sure, it felt
bad when I, like, you seedfirst, and you have to beat the
32nd seed and the 16th seed,because that's not a free game,
by any means, it's like, youactually have to win, right?

Liam (32:43):
Yeah, right, exactly.
It's struggle better than youget cooked.
Mm hmm.

Abaan (32:46):
but I think it's, I think it's fair enough, like, I think
Top 16 is a happy middle ground.
Top 32 felt like you have to wintoo many rounds, even after you
seeded first, but Top 16 feelslike, oh, like, this is, like, a
good amount of players from athousand people to, like, have
to continue on to the nextround, I don't know.
It feels, like, ridiculous,like, these two thousand person
tournaments are, like, getting aTop 8.
Like, Worlds is obviouslysmaller than that, but, like,
Top 8 just seems too narrow.

Cameron (33:07):
I mean, Worlds will be bigger than some regionals were
last year.
Like, a good amount of regionalswere last year, roughly.
Because, like, the averageregional size was 1, 100.
And we've kind of doubled thatin the last

Abaan (33:19):
Wasn't like Arlington, the one you talked about, wasn't
it like the biggest regional atthe time?
Like it's so crazy, like everysingle regional we play these
days is like the biggestregional ever.

Cameron (33:27):
biggest event, if it's NAIC.

Liam (33:29):
know.
Kieran

Abaan (33:31):
yeah, I don't know.
It's like even hard to imagine,like, I mean obviously I played
Pokemon, it was like 500 andthen like now I'm playing with
2, 000, but like I never got toplay that middling, middling
region, where like you canactually get away with like 34,
35 match points and make cuts.

Cameron (33:45):
I mean, last year I was, I was on the bubble at 10 3
1, because we had five rounds atthe, at the, at the end of the
regional.
And Kieran Ferrer bubbled in,and Kieran Ferrer bubbled in,
and Gabe Smart and I bubbled outat 9 10 10.
I think that was just a

Liam (34:03):
Farah.
That guy is actually insane plotarmor,

Cameron (34:05):
and then, and then you, so, and you think about that and
I'm 10 3 1 at NAIC and I ID andI get 28th and I was just like
on the high end because myresistance was sick, right, like
that went all the way down tolike past 64, I think, my
record, I

Liam (34:20):
you're actually tough for that, bro.
That was like, actually a MaxAura moment.

Abaan (34:23):
cannot believe

Liam (34:25):
into 32.
Ooh.
Ooh.

Abaan (34:27):
caches at, he always has to, like, salesman his way into
the last round.
Like, last round of thetournament, he has to go like,
Yo, let me offer you nothing,and in exchange, I get three
bands.
And the guy's like, yeah, bet.
Where do I sign?

Cameron (34:42):
The guy got two bans!

Abaan (34:44):
Oh, I forgot, yeah, yeah, you're right.
I forgot that TopPTC4 was stillcaching.
But, like, at Worlds, bro, youreally scammed that guy at
Worlds last year.
Yeah.

Cameron (34:51):
my goodness.
There's always, you know, yougotta,

Abaan (34:55):
Someone I know?

Cameron (34:55):
money.
You gotta steal the money.
I didn't know, he ended upmaking the, he made the
decision, alright?

Liam (35:03):
He's a salesman.
Oh my

Cameron (35:05):
Someone input my deck wrong on Pokestats, whoever did,
thank you very much.

Abaan (35:10):
I love that, bro.
It's people who have no motivewhatsoever.
Like, at Pokestops LA, I wasGoldango.
I don't know where that camefrom, bro.
I just have some guy looking outfor me from above.
Why would they put me in asGoldango?
it's like, yeah, I don't know.
Like, who are these, like,saints who just do these things
for no reason?
Like, no one knows who they are,they just kinda get in there.

(35:32):
Respect.

Liam (35:34):
Crazy work.

Abaan (35:35):
Do you want to talk about what we've been testing a little
bit?
Feels like we've kind of movedup from format discussion.
I have some

Liam (35:42):
I guess I'll start with my biggest takeaway so far.
I

Cameron (35:46):
Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on.
I think before we, like, getinto that, like, between last
week's episode and this week'sepisode, I think there was, like
Is there two money matchesbetween you two?

Abaan (35:57):
oh yeah, sure,

Cameron (35:57):
Oh yeah, let's start with that.
Yeah, so how did that go?
Yeah.
I thought,

Liam (36:03):
and Abad have been running money matches, Conquest, Best of
Seven

Cameron (36:06):
through that

Liam (36:07):
now play two.
You know, you gotta, gotta havea little bit of break time in
between, right, to think aboutlike the decks and stuff, right?

Cameron (36:15):
Goes up.

Abaan (36:16):
Yeah, Liam and I have actually, like, the thing about
playing Conquest against someoneyou talk to a lot about Pokemon
is actually, like, a completemind game, okay?
The first one came down to aGame 7 Pidget 1v1 that I ended
up winning, even though Liam,like, let me go first, like, he
cho he got to choose and I gotto go first.
I just hit the nuts.
Beat him quickly.
And then, I think the secondseries, we both came to the

(36:37):
conclusion, like, individually,that we could not let Pidget get
through.
That we both thought we weresuch, like, the other person was
such a Pidget head, that, like,us not bringing Pidget would,
like, be, like, game breaking.
So we both, like, tried toaggressively counter it, right?
We had, like, or at least Ipersonally, I brought, like,
Garde with two bosses.
I brought, like Zardusknor, Ibrought Raging Bolt, and then I
bought Regidrago, which was ahuge mistake, because I hadn't

(36:57):
played a single game of that.
And Liam Lineup was the exactsame as mine, except he
substituted the Regidrago for aDragapult.
And yeah, I just the cardsdidn't go my way it's just
unlucky.
I won the first series 4 3 andthen lost the second one 4 2, so
we're we're squared up.
Yeah, you wanna add anything,Liam, after winning the most
recent one?
The defending champ?

Liam (37:15):
no.
Yeah, I, they're good.
It definitely, definitely a lotof mind games, because, yeah, we
know each other's tendencies, Ithink.
Not like super well, but alittle bit, right?

Abaan (37:25):
It was kind of Vince, because I was like, the thing
is, like, you'll play, like, atesting set, right?
Like, a bunch of testing sets,you're like, wow, this deck
feels great.
And then it's, like, It'sconfusing, you're like, did he
feel like that deck lookedgreat?
Like, is he gonna bring it, orlike, what, like, I was like,
playing Vax and I was loving it,and I was just owning Liam over
and over and over again, and hewas just convinced I was gonna
bring Vax.

Liam (37:46):
yeah, I, I was.
See, he's not lying.
Because Baxia is like the deckthat's like hardest to counter,
I think.
It just like, it does what itdoes really well.

Abaan (37:55):
You were gonna play a bunch of decks with like, Hella
Divas and stuff, and that's whyI was like, alright, I'll get
him with the Bolt and the Drago,I'll get him, I'll get in there,
and then that deck sucks.
Drago sucks.

Liam (38:06):
Yeah, I've been, I've been Devo fiending pretty hard.
I think Devo's like, it's likenot great, but it's it's good
into Zahr, it's good into Pigea,it's good into C Pow.
Those are all decks I thoughtthat a bond would bring.
Yeah,

Abaan (38:27):
slips out from under me, like, I the first series, it
just beat Max and got out, andthen the second series, I
believe, it just, like I think Ijust queued Raging Bolt into it,
and I just got owned, and I waslike, this is so unfortunate,
like,

Liam (38:37):
yeah.

Abaan (38:38):
Dude, the deck that you struggle with the most getting
out is, is Zard, actually, Idon't know how, like, I,
whenever I play Zard, I'm like,this deck is such a free win,
like, I'm, I'll tell you now, Ithink I'm bringing Zard to,
like, every Conquest we play,cause, like, The deck is, like,
a free win.
Yeah,

Liam (38:50):
I know, the deck is like super good, I

Abaan (38:53):
it

Liam (38:53):
yeah dude, I feel like has Zord had the hardest time
getting out?
Yeah?

Abaan (38:57):
It has, like, in that last series, you beat Raging
Bolt after that crazy sequence,but then we played the, the
Drago, the Regidrago game forfun, and I was gonna own you,
right?
So, like, You had to sack

Liam (39:06):
I guess.
I guess I was pretty close togetting out.
I felt like, yeah, I felt likeI've done a, I've had some like,
miracle, miracle runs withGuardi and, and Loststone.
Like, getting those decks out, Ithen thought, I thought the
Iron, I brought Iron Thorns inthe first one that we played,
and it lost to like, it lostlike twice in a row which is

(39:26):
pretty bad in a best of seven.
So I thought, dude, I waswriting down the matchup spread
and I was like, 100 0 this, 1000 this, 100 0 this, I'm starting

Abaan (39:35):
have Zard as

Liam (39:36):
game.
Like no, I had, I had Zard aslike a 60 40.

Abaan (39:39):
That's crazy, bro.
That is not that cannot be 6040.
There's no way.

Liam (39:44):
yeah, I thought, I thought I was gonna get through my deck
faster to find the hammers,like, more aggressively.
And I thought,

Abaan (39:50):
you can roll the hammer offscreen and just tell me the
result.
Then, like, then maybe.
Then maybe it's 60 40.
hammers are anywhere near 50 50,it's over.

Liam (40:00):
Yeah, no, I mean, you're right, that Lost Storm's deck
was just, like, absolutelyterrible.
It literally only beat theLugia, and like, only by, like,
a hair, bro.

Abaan (40:08):
Yeah, it's because I didn't play second bear.
If I played second bear, I thinkI would've beat you, but oh
well.

Liam (40:14):
Yeah, I think.

Abaan (40:15):
Oh, and I played the Klefki.
I should've played Klefki andLugia.
That's like the sauce.
I even talked about it on thepod, and I just didn't, like, I,
I'm gonna be honest, I was solazy, I just ripped Alex and
Meshki's, like, exact 60.
Didn't think about any of thecards, and it just didn't work
out.
Yeah.

Liam (40:29):
Yeah.

Abaan (40:30):
It's weird, if you're like, if you're interested in
doing something over the overlike this like, weird period,
like playing ConquistadorFriends is like super fun,
because like it's not even,you're kind of divorced from
reality, like there's a lot ofstuff in Metadex that just
exists for like, very otherspecific Metadex, and you can
just ignore it if you just thinkthat they're not going to bring
it, right?
And like, the mind game, right?
And like, basically it's like a,it's a new deck building
challenge given that you're justtrying to beat

Liam (40:52):
It's the interleaving, bro.
I actually think Like,practicing is one of the most,
like, slept on things inPokemon.
Cam knows this now, too.
I've completely divorced myselffrom flowcharts and, like, meta
and, like, matchups and all thatstuff.
It's just about, like, oring upand practicing.
But I think practicing is alsoone of the, like, hardest things

(41:13):
to do because we don't have,like, an engine to eval
yourself.
Like, the closest thing you haveto that is paying Tord 100 bucks
like, for an hour of his time tolook over your shoulder.
But, like Yeah, I think it'shard to identify when you've
gone wrong, right?
Like, without an engine orsomething like that, but being
able to find, like, improvementsin your gameplay is, like, the
biggest improvement that you cando, because it's general.

(41:36):
Right?
Like, I think, I think tryingto, like, up your skills each
meta, like, individually, whereyou're, like, only good in this
meta because you've memorized,like, X, Y, and Z flowcharts, or
whatever.
Is like, not the best way to goabout things, because the game
isn't even like a flowchartgame.
Like, it is at like the lowestlevels, but, you know, once you
get higher, it's about theimprovisation.

(41:56):
You

Abaan (42:00):
but I think like all the inspiration we have about
Pokemon can be drawn from likechess, and like, it's just you
have to like kind of stretchsome of the analogies, but like,
I think that what I was sayingis like, most chess players,
they have like leaks, like,obviously like chess is an
objective game, like there's thebest move, right, but like, it's
after the opening, but mostpeople just have leaks in
certain types of positions,like, oh, this chess player,

(42:20):
like, there's no such thing asplay style, like play, like,
yeah.
You aren't supposed to placepositions, like, more
aggressively because you're anaggressive player.
But you do have, like, you dohave a brain that, like, can
sometimes be, like,dispositioned to, like, oh, I
really want to placeaggressively, and so I will,
whether it's correct or not,right?
And so just identifying, like,like, you shouldn't do things in
a way because your playstyle'slike that, but you should be

(42:41):
able to recognize, like, maybethe line that's popping into my
head is too, like, biasedtowards one end of, like, the
game.
Like, one type of play, andlike, being able to like,
analyze like, oh, how can I fixthat?
Like, how can I fix leaks in mygames, right?
Cause like, there's some chessplayers who will play like,
positional games like,perfectly.
They'll play like, the boring,like, I just maneuvered my
knight around, moved like, mybishop into the perfect square,

(43:03):
and like, choked you to death.
And there's some chess playerswho play like, the, I'll just
sack this piece, and like, I'lldo like, a hundred move
sequence, and like, get youlike, eventually, right?
And like, I think there's a lotof parallels to Pokemon, and
just like, People, like,oversimplify it, so then it
loses some of the meaning, butjust, like, knowing, like, I
personally, I'm definitely,like, more that positional type
of player, like, I I do have,like, some issues where, like,

(43:24):
sometimes, like, I'll get into,like, sequences, like, or, like,
I just don't want to pull thetrigger and, like, get into a
sequence where it's, like, oh,I'm gonna do this, they're gonna
Iona me back, then I'm gonnahave to, like, draw the nuts,
and, but that's my highestwinning percentage line, like, I
am, like, very worried aboutdoing that, I don't like doing
it, and, like, I try to, like,identify, like, spots where,
like, I'm clearly playing tooslow.

Liam (43:46):
I think, yeah, I think if we're talking about our
weaknesses, I think I strugglewith the micro decisions the
most I think, I think my macrois usually, like, pretty solid
and of course, I'm I'm not,like, perfect in any aspect of
Pokemon, right, but I think mymacro is generally stronger than
my micro decision making.
But I also want to say, I thinkit's really interesting that you

(44:07):
bring that up, because Iapproach this problem of play
styles completely differently,and, like, solving player
tendencies, where instead oftrying to, like, remove my
tendencies, because I don'tthink I can do that, right,
like, everybody always hastendencies, I think it's
important to just note them, andthen try to put yourself into
positions where thosetendencies, Like, turn into,
turn into advantages, as opposedto disadvantages.

(44:27):
And like, trying to capitalizeon those tendencies more.
I assume it's somewhat more of acombination,

Abaan (44:33):
Yeah, it's funny you say that because I thought that
exact same thing.
It's like, well, if I likeplaying everything slow, maybe I
need to play a deck that, like,inherently always wins when it
goes slow, right?
But I think that Pokemon ingeneral, like, you can never
have one or the other, like,linearly.
Like, the most aggressive deckever.
Like, dude, a great example.
I was talking to Shinoahe aboutthis.
Raging Bolt vs Pidgeot.

(44:54):
All you have to do is RagingBull.
I'm going to leave it as aspoiler because I don't know if
I'm going to play Pigeon or not,but if you're playing Raging
Bull, all you have to do islike, not go crazy and go to
three way too fast.
Just the turn before you'reabout to go to three, just take
a deep breath, take an extraturn, attach like two more
energy to your teal mass, andthen once you're in blood moon
range, like, try to also jumpfrom four to two.
to zero.
That's like the ideal, like,path, right?

(45:16):
It's so hard for them to dealwith that.
But look, every Raging Bullplayer, all they know how to do
is like, zoom, zoom, zoom, zoom,zoom, that's like, what I'm
doing, right?
And like, I think if peoplelike, follow your philosophy,
they're like, well, I want toplay a deck that puts me in
situations where I go fast, solike, I'm going fast, that's
like, playstyle, like, that'smy, like, bias.
But it's like, every deck hasboth aspects, so like, I think
it's a, like, while you shouldplay a deck that tries to do

(45:38):
that, This is my bias play, andthen like, maybe like, taking a
deep breath and trying to do theother one.
Or like, thinking about theother one, at least.
You don't have to do the otherone, necessarily, right?

Liam (45:51):
Yeah, I mean, that makes a lot of sense.
You can't completely remove,like, slow or fast or, like,
positional aspects from yourgames either, right?
Like, even as much as you tryeven with Sunraging Bolt, right?

Abaan (46:04):
By the way, the Raging Bolt deck is, like, if we're
gonna talk about like, specificdecks, Raging Bolt is crazy.
Like, the Japanese list withRescue Stretcher, Rescue
Stretcher is like, Or not res,whatever, Nightly Stretcher.
Yeah, it for, like, it's a newcard, it gets a Pokemon or a
basic energy.
It's so versatile, like, youjust Pokestop and you discard,
like, before you Pokestop anddiscard, like, a Raging Bolt, an

(46:26):
energy, and, like, an item, andyou'd be, like, a little
annoyed, right?
Now it's like, wow, I have thestretcher in hand, like, I just
basically played a nest ball,like, do the, like, and you can
infinitely bundle, essentially,like, five bundles a game if you
need it, and, like, It's justthe best draw off an Iona to 2,
like, it's, it's nice, like, youcan pokestop away, like, the
Fezendipity, the new, like, IfSomething Died Less Turn Draw 3

(46:47):
like, old Oricorio, and, like,if it's in your discard, then
you just draw a stretcher off anIona, like, you just rip it, or
you can just bench theFezendipity early, like, the
deck feels even more potent thanit did last format, but it does
have the simple, like, if theprize trade is losing, you're
going to lose, like, there'snothing you can, there's no,
like, cheating with Iron Hands,etc.
You just lose.

Liam (47:05):
Yeah, I think the, the deck always wanted to play,
like, raw, and like, some peopledid play it because like, yeah,
the pokey stops can be superbrutal, and like, you sometimes
just want to use more attackersthan you, than you have some
games, right?
And I think, I think Stretcheris a great way to fix this
problem, and like, accessvolume, while also staying super

(47:26):
consistent.
Which is like, really, reallystrong for the deck.

Abaan (47:31):
Also, I don't, like, I was actually thinking about
playing Raging Bull, and I waslike, the problem is that
there's no way to play the deckwithout playing a heavy catcher
engine.
Like, you just fundamentallycan't play, like, two boss and
use boss consistently.
Like, you kind of just have tocatcher and bundle, and that's
gotta, like, get you there,right?
So, like, it's gonna befrustrating when, like, like,
you're in a game at Worlds, andit's just, like you have, you

(47:53):
have to hit a catcher and thenhit heads to win the game if
you're gonna play the stack,right?

Liam (47:56):
I don't know, I've been playing, I've been playing no
catchers.
Maybe you should be playingcatchers.
But.
I know Noe Yoshida, he he's abig Raging Bolt head, I guess.
He said he wanted to playsomething brain dead for NAIC,
so he basically grinded Bolt nonstop for like two weeks leading
up to the event.
And he ended up on a no catcherlist with four Ultra Ball and
Luminion.

(48:17):
To just lean on the boss

Abaan (48:17):
I think the fundamental problem with that is that you
don't have enough energy tospare to have both Raging
Bullets have an excess energy,right?
So like, often you'll get intosituations where it's like,
well, I can't have an extraenergy on both Raging Bullets,
so I guess I'll take the extraone off the active.
And if they hit like, CC Radzardor something like that, it's
just impossible.
Like, you can't boss and Saudafor knockout in the same turn

(48:40):
per game, right?

Liam (48:40):
Yeah, I think you have to be playing the Prime, because
you're right, like, you don'thave access to enough Gusts
then, like, you do have to itemGusts at some point

Abaan (48:50):
But finding that one prime on that one turn after
already finding the whole combois like, frustrating.
It's difficult.

Liam (48:57):
maybe, I mean, I don't know, Deck is super omega gas,
you find everything you need, Ithink, huh.

Abaan (49:03):
Sometimes, but, it's like, ordering, right?
Sometimes you just draw thecatcher too soon, and you have
to squawk it away, etc, or like,Raging Bull to first attack it
away, and like, sometimes youdraw the catcher, you just miss
the catcher, like, Having oneunconditional item gust?
Bad.
Having four conditional, as inyou need to flip heads, item
gusts?
Perfect.
Like, every single catcher canbe, like, prime catcher, if

(49:25):
you're lucky, you know?
Just hit if you

Liam (49:27):
Yeah, I mean,

Cameron (49:28):
You should have two, but maybe you Hyrule and get

Abaan (49:31):
it'd be nice.
Exactly.

Liam (49:33):
Catcher could very well be correct, but I don't think it's
like impossible to play with no,

Abaan (49:38):
Sure.

Liam (49:40):
I think,

Abaan (49:41):
You know what matchup I thought was interesting?
I've been playing, we've playedwhat, like, 20 games of this
matchup, I guess, over thecourse of the last two days, is
the Zard vs.
Raging Bull matchup.
And it feels, it's like the oldRoaring Moon matchup, but if
Roaring Moon's, like, GalarianMoltres managed to kill Zard in
one hit, that's like the bigfactor that changes it for me.
It's like, the fact that TealMask on the bench with one

(50:01):
energy is a constant Zard threatmeans that you really do have to
go, like, keep no two prizes onyour board, Go to five to six,
and then Zard has to take thetwo prizes back, and typically
you're going to take that firstprize with Sandy Shox if
possible, right?
So Zard has to hit the responseCC, and then the Teal Mask will
kill you, and then, like, youhave to hit another Zard, and
like, it's just, you get there,like, half the time.

(50:23):
Like, it's really 50

Liam (50:25):
like, you have to win on board, right, because they
always have it.
They always have it.

Abaan (50:30):
Because, like, the old problem with Roaring Moon is,
like, after Roaring Moon did,like, the Kamikaze, hit
themselves for 200, you get,like, Heat Tackle or something,
like, you can never cheese themwith a 1 prizer other than
Radzard, right?
So what I've been doing in thematchup sometimes, to, like,
respond to this, is when theytake that first prize, if
possible, I like to use a 4energy Radzard, actually.
If I, if I can get away with it,to use a 4 entry Radsart to take
this prize, and then if they ifthey take a, if they knock that

(50:52):
out, right, then like, I'm ableto like, reset the prize trade,
I can maybe rod the enemies backin, and then play like 4 4 and
win.
And if they don't knock out the4 entry Radsart and they insist
on like, knocking out Pidget orsomething, then like, then the
Radsart is like an implicitthreat that they will just like,
sit there, right?
So, I mean, that's like themethod that has been working the
best for me, to

Liam (51:09):
hitting with it early is the best way to, like, force the
issue, right, because you don'thave to remove a two prizer from
your board when you hit with it.
Yeah, I mean, it's hard.
You gotta hit a lot of pieces ofZard to make it all come
together, right.

Abaan (51:20):
Yeah, you have a plan that works every time, but it
just, or like, you have a planthat like, theoretically works,
but hitting every piece inconsecutive orders just has been
difficult.

Liam (51:30):
Yes.
A quick testament to the the nocatcher list that NoYoshida ran
at NAIC.
He ran it with the Nate Kaplan,and they, like, did not drop a
set.
Like, they went, like, XO insets against everything non
Guarda4.
So yeah, they did pretty hot.

Abaan (51:49):
I think the catcher list, though, is like, very important
to trying to beat Guard of Warever, right?
Like, you just have to catch hera Kirlia early, catch her
another Kirlia, like, have them,like, kind of

Cameron (51:59):
Hit Gardi, yeah, yeah.

Liam (52:02):
And, and I mean, it's, it's NAIC, right?
Like the first few rounds arealways kind of gutted.
Like it's, it's not a great nota great sample, but that is,
that, that can exist withoutcatchers.
Right.

Abaan (52:12):
Okay, but they drop okay, the important concept, though,
that, like I've, like, heard,like, other people talk about,
is that Guardi was, like,everywhere, right?
All the top players were playingGuardi, right?
So, Yeah, they didn't drop a setto non Guardi players, but that
just means they didn't reallydrop a set to people who aren't
necessarily top top players.
Like, sure, there were topplayers on other stuff, like
Tord obviously played, like,Pulsar, but I'm just saying the
vast majority of top playerswere on Guardi.

(52:34):
So, like, the fact that theydropped only sets to Guardi is
kind of like, just, it doesn'treally mean anything.
It just means, like, oh, theyjust lost to some top players,
and, like, those top playersmight have just owned them with
Zara, they might have owned

Liam (52:43):
Yeah.
I, I agree.
It's, it's not like a greatsample, but you know, that is
that's legit.
Might be better with catchers,but it's legit.

Cameron (52:52):
And so, Zard, Zard Pidgeot Dusknoir, is that also
just legit?
I mean, we all assumed it is.

Liam (52:59):
Yeah.
Deck is insane.

Abaan (53:01):
think It actually, like, the reason Zard fell off in the
last format is that control and,like, all these matchups that
used to be, like, 50 50 forZard, it just, like, slowly got
worse and worse.
I honestly think that deck is,like, pretty bad.
Old Zard in the sense that it'svery consistent, but it does
just have like a bunch of 5545s.
But it's like, it's like adifferent kind of 55 45 than
Raging Bolt's 55 45s.

(53:21):
Like, Raging Bolt, when theyhave a 55 45, it's like, you
either hit everything and youjust like, blow them out of the
water, or you just like, whiffand lose.
With Zard's 55 45s, it's morelike, there's like a lot of
steps in the game where you getto like, do interesting stuff,
like outplay, like not outplaynecessarily, but just like, make
like, good plays that like, Youhave

Liam (53:37):
aura up, right?
Like yeah.
You,

Abaan (53:40):
Like, it's 50 by 45, but like, I think that, like,
against someone you think is,like, way less skilled than you,
it's, like, almost 70 30, right?
Like, a lot of these matchups.

Liam (53:47):
It's a high aura deck.

Abaan (53:48):
of course.
Like, make sure to give thatdisclaimer for all the, all the
decks we're playing now.
Like, give a little aurareading, or,

Liam (53:55):
Yeah, dude.

Cameron (53:56):
Or a reading out of ten.
So what was that?
what was Raging Bolt's aurareading?

Liam (54:01):
it's, it's very low.

Abaan (54:02):
very low, very low, like, insanely

Liam (54:04):
it's like a three, like

Cameron (54:05):
Hey, catcher's list won! Your catcher's list won!
Alright, and Charizard?

Liam (54:11):
I, I, I think catchers are a high Aura card.
I love some catchers.
Yeah.

Abaan (54:15):
that's the one thing about Vancouver, I did enjoy
playing Zorobox, but usingcatchers in Miraidon did seem
like a blast.
You know what's funny?
Every single format, like whenthe new popular deck comes out,
my initial list takes whateverlist exists and adds like
catchers, and like everyone justthinks my lists are like gas.
Like I remember before NAIC, ornot NAIC, was it EUIC?

(54:36):
I was playing like that futurehands list with 4 catcher, and I
was like owning everyone, andeveryone was like, Yo, guys, we
gotta try a bond like Futurehands list guys, it's crazy.
And then like, just like,variants like evens out and
they're like, oh this deck'skind of mid, like.

Liam (54:49):
Yeah, bro, I think, we were just talking about this, I
think, before the pod but yeah,my threshold now has kind of
changed, like, Aura is a goodindicator for threshold.
It's somewhat like what JakeEarhart was telling me on
Twitter, I think, like a fewmonths ago, about like, dude, I
just love to play complicateddecks.
And that sentiment is correctbut I would never say it like

(55:11):
that, I would just say, I havethis deck has Aura.
And that means, because it's alittle bit

Abaan (55:17):
Yeah, a little translation for people on the
pod, for people, for like, olderlisteners, yeah.

Liam (55:21):
because it's got aura, like, I think that the deck has
like a lower threshold for likeits actual concrete matchup
percentage for me to consider itlike the best play.

Abaan (55:30):
It's just that when you're losing as Charizard,
Pidget, Dusknoir, You can almostalways pull something crazy out,
like I don't know, I'll like,use Rad's Art a bunch and like,
maybe you'll miss the Gust orsomething, like, you always have
like, outs, like, very nice,like, real, like, 10 20 percent
outs, right?
And if you have like, a 20percent out in every single game
you play, like, one out of fivegames on average, you should
just win.

(55:50):
With Raging Bull, it's like,once you've like, fallen behind
or whatever, there's nothing,like, a toddler could just like,
walk it down and beat you afterthat point, you know?

Liam (55:58):
yeah, exactly.
Like, the expected win rate,like, I think you should try
like, envisioning yourtournament, and like, what
happens.
It's of course very difficult tovisualize like, like a win no
matter what you do.
Like, it requires an insane,access to an insane win rate
somehow, but like, when you playa high aura deck, you can

(56:20):
reasonably, like, visionyourself winning all these
individual rounds, like,individually, just like win,
win, win, win, win, whereas whenyou play a deck that's like a
coin flippy deck on the wins,right, where like, you know,
it's like a raising bullet andyou just have to flip, like.
You have to like genuinely fliplike super duper well and just
run super duper hot.
It's hard to imagine

Abaan (56:41):
Do you, Liam, do you I feel like this is a weird thing
I do, but I feel like you're sosimilar to me that, like,
somehow, like, you'll also dothis, like, do you actually,
like, think about what eachround will be, and, like,
sometimes, like, give yourself,like, a mock tournament, and,
like, own it, like, oh, yeah,I'll play, like, this matchup,
it's, like, an auto win, winthat one, then I'll play this
matchup, just, like, have, like,a 9

Liam (56:57):
I mean like,

Abaan (56:58):
tournament in your head, just, like, sitting there?

Liam (57:00):
I don't, I don't, I don't do it that aggressively like
choosing the matchup.
Like, what's he gonna flip overthis time?
But I mean,

Abaan (57:07):
No, no, before the tournament, like, on my own,
like, on my own time, like, justsometimes I'll be thinking about
what deck I'm gonna play, and,like, have a run a little mock
tournament, then I go 9 0 everytime.

Cameron (57:15):
Hahaha.
Haha.
Hahaha,

Liam (57:20):
that a little bit, like, I don't, I don't like sit down and
like intentionally do it, butyou know, I'd be like thinking
in bed the night

Abaan (57:27):
Yes, it's not yeah, yeah, it's not at my desk, like, it's
mock tournament time.
Ahahaha!

Cameron (57:33):
This is right before you're about to fall

Liam (57:35):
Yeah, yeah, I'd be thinking in bed the night before
the event, I'd just be like, I'duse it more to like, imagine,
maybe, maybe this is likeconfirmation bias that has built
in like a terrible habit overthe years, but this happened to
me, and like, it was like 2019,it was like my first year as a
senior, and the night before theevent, I had, I had made this
like, Hitmonchan Trevenant deck,And I was like, I just, like, I

(57:58):
just imagined myself playingthis deck tomorrow, like, I
closed my eyes at night and Isee myself playing this deck,
and I was like, alright bro, I'mrunning it down with this, like,
sleeve it up, we're running thistomorrow instead of, you know,
like, whatever solid meta optionI've had, and then I top 8'd,
and that was like my best resultI think yet, as a, as a senior,
cause this was like my firstyear in seniors or whatever, and

(58:19):
so I was like, The method works.
Time to stick it around, bro,for whatever I see myself
playing when I close my eyes atnight.
That's the that's the deck tosend.

Abaan (58:28):
it's weird, like, you think that someone who's
practiced a lot, like, you'resupposed to play the thing you
practice, et cetera, et cetera.
But nothing, like, and that'skind of what I've been doing
this year, and it's like, it'swhatever.
It's like, but the realenjoyment from Pokemon, for me,
is like, you show up to theevent, like, the day before, and
someone, like, hands you thesauce, and they're like, bro,
Just trust, like, I don't carewhat you're playing, it's not

(58:49):
better than this.
And then you're like, ah, nah,I'll, I'll, I got you, and then
they like, for some reason,like, so, it always happens that
the deck you've been working ongets like perfectly countered by
the deck they've been workingon.
They just own you like six timesin a row, and you're like, oh, I
have nothing to say, hand itover.
like the good old days, that'slike

Liam (59:05):
Yeah, no, dude, I, like, I swear, man, it was, when you,
showing up with, showing 60cards is, like, way worse
feeling than, like, I got noidea what I'm doing.
I'm gonna show up.
Sit in the tank for a few hoursand see what happens when I walk
out.

Abaan (59:21):
I've been basically showing up with 60, 65 cards,
and a bunch of cards that I likeplay, like I bring just to play
with other people with, butlike,

Liam (59:28):
Yeah, same, same.
I've been doing that for likethe last, like, two events,

Abaan (59:31):
Yeah, but it sucks, bro, like, it's like, the correct,
it's like, the correct thing,but it's not, like, it's not
good for, like, life enjoyment,you know?
Like, it's not, it's not

Liam (59:40):
I think, like, yeah, I mean, I only do that when I'm,
like, relatively locked into adeck.
Like, I don't, I have no qualmsabout switching, but I'm just
like, dude, I think this deck isgreat, and, like, there's
nothing that can happen in thenext 24 hours that will change
my mind.
I don't, like, I don't feellike, oh, I've got, like, so
many hours on this deck, Ican't, I can't switch off.
Or something, like, if I thoughtit was bad, I'd switch in a

(01:00:02):
heartbeat, but, like,

Abaan (01:00:04):
It's like, it's like the confidence that you've seen so
much volume of the deck beinggood, that unless there's some,
like, fundamental plan that youmissed out on that people are
owning you with, or like, themeta is like, this deck that you
thought was like a 5 percentdeck is like a 15 percent deck,
or something, something crazylike that,

Liam (01:00:17):
you get some crazy new

Abaan (01:00:19):
You just know, like, that even if you run I've run, like,
terrible on the day beforetournaments, like, first of all,
recently I've been, like, savingmoney and, like, flying in,
like, at terrible times, I don'teven get to test before the
tournament, but, like, when I doshow up earlier, like, the day
before testing and stuff likethat, it's, like, nothing will
change my mind because I I'veseen the stack's volume of being
good, so I know that, like, Icould I could lose 10 games in a

(01:00:42):
row and I still know that, like,that was, like, a like, that was
a small sample size, like,whatever, or, like, that's,
like, a like a fluke like it'sfine i don't get like worried i
something has to fundamentallychange like something like oh
the meta is different everyone'splaying x card that beats me or
like something like that has tohappen for me to like be
convinced to change

Liam (01:01:02):
I agree.
But yeah, I think there's reallynothing like showing up with
with no idea what you're gonnaplay.
It's like,

Abaan (01:01:09):
yeah let's like let's just stop testing now and figure
out our worlds you know we havetwo days

Liam (01:01:13):
yeah, that's like max aura bro.
No dude, I would actually dothat if like, I have to figure
out the best way to practicebro, like, I just, I need to
improve my skill at the game.
Like I don't need to improve mylike, my skill.
Oh, you know, X beats Y, Y beatsZ, meta understanding, bro.
I just have to be better at thegame, bro.

(01:01:34):
Like, I have to, like, actuallypractice, bro.
But I don't know exactly thebest way to do that.

Cameron (01:01:39):
what you need to do is you need to, you're coming to
Seattle, right?
August 3rd to August 10th.
And you just need to play withEban and I, and we'll just

Liam (01:01:46):
Yeah, no,

Cameron (01:01:46):
Well this'll all increase our Auris.
I

Liam (01:01:48):
go crazy.
But yeah, like, I have to figureout a good way to practice.
And I mean, that's, like, thehardest question, right?
Like,

Abaan (01:01:59):
I actually think like maybe at some point, we'll,
we'll, like the conquest thingis fun, but I think the most
thing, the most beneficial thingfor both of us is just the run.
Like we run a lot of testinggames, but we can run more of
like the PCG sim, like the, likein the style of our conquest
matches, but like.
Like, trying to beat each other,but with, like, very standard
meta lists.
Because the problem with theConquest stuff is it becomes,

(01:02:20):
like, a open it's like a closeddeck less, like, masterclass.
Yeah, it's

Liam (01:02:24):
Yeah.

Abaan (01:02:25):
Like, it's stupid for improvement.
It's pretty fun, like, as itsown thought experiment.
And,

Liam (01:02:29):
Yeah, dude, no, I think something people should do more
of is less, like, games grindingand more, more emphasis on the
games themselves.
Like, play, like, a one hourgame where, like, you actually,
like, think and talk through,like, every single action you
make.

Cameron (01:02:45):
think when Finn and I play, We're playing, testing for
worlds.
I think what you need to do isjust like test extensively for
short periods of time a singledeck and like learn all its
matchups very quickly and thenmove on to the next deck and you
can't like fall in love becauseI think it's very easy to just
play with like the deck thatyou've been playing a lot
recently because you just likeBeen used to it, and, to like,

(01:03:09):
just like test,

Abaan (01:03:10):
me right now, like, not even on a Pokemon level, just,
like, a life level.

Cameron (01:03:14):
and,

Abaan (01:03:14):
keep it pushin bro.
Gotta keep it pushin ha! ha! ha!

Cameron (01:03:19):
you just gotta like test them all out.
Like we would test like one deckin the morning when we were in
Japan, and then we had lunch,and then we'd come back and we'd
just like test a different deck,like seven matchups, and then
the next day we'd do it, and

Abaan (01:03:29):
probably that's too fast to turn around.
Like, give give give each decklike a day, you know?

Cameron (01:03:33):
Well, we only had like, well, we had like three.
10 decks and then you know youhave to test like one to two
decks a day and then you go tolike a couple of your homies who
are like, I don't test ARC so

Liam (01:03:43):
dude, that's what the ore is all about, bro, is being able
to extract a lot of knowledgefrom a very few games, right?
Like, you shouldn't be usinggames to try and simulate win
rate.
You should be trying to, like,you play the matchup once, and
all the cards are on the table,and they all just speak to you
and tell you what thepercentages are, and you can
extract, like, a

Abaan (01:04:03):
What if you just, like, instead of doing that, you just,
like, thought you don't have towait for the cards to tell you
anything, you just, like, lookedat the cards, and you, like,
used your own

Cameron (01:04:10):
like, what are you what are your outs?
What are your outs?

Liam (01:04:14):
Like, if you exist only in the theory, like, how do you set
up the initial position, bro?

Abaan (01:04:21):
Oh no no, I'm just kidding, I'm just saying the way
you're saying like you have towait for cards to like think
speak to you, I was like what ifyou like played the game and
like just like looked at thecards and said they don't speak
to you,

Liam (01:04:29):
Yeah, you just set the two decks down on the table, and you
don't even set up, but you justlet them speak.
Yeah, I mean, exactly, bro.
I mean,

Abaan (01:04:37):
Okay, but I actually think that like, it's weird.
I think that in, like, thisphase of testing, like, this far
out from the tournament, you canliterally sim certain matchups,
and just simu Okay, there's noamount of thinking that can tell
you the Raging Bolt vs Zardmatchup, because it's truly a,
like, a, who hits what, howoften.
And, like, you just have to run,like, 20 games, and, like, it

(01:04:57):
doesn't even take very long.
You just run 20 games, you'relike, okay, I think it's
actually, like, Very, very closeto 50 50.
And there's certain matchupsthat are truly just thinking
matchups.
Like, I don't bother playing,like, 20 games of Pidget Control
matchups.
Most of them I just play, like,5 to 10.
And I'm like, okay, well, I, I,from this I can see who would
win how often, right?
Like, I don't know, like,

Liam (01:05:14):
Yeah.

Abaan (01:05:15):
have to be able to do both.
You can't, and it's like, that'swhy testing is so tricky.
You can't take your 5 gamesample size and like, use its
win percentage as anything, butyou can use like, the vibe of
the game, like the, like, whatwas happening, and like, how
often you think that, like, howlucky was anyone getting, like,
if this seems like the standardline that'll happen like 90
percent of the time, then like,you can just like, you can just
extrapolate that out, right?
Or like, and there's certainmatchups where it's like, You

(01:05:38):
need to just, like, test it.
Like, most, like, Bax matchups,Raging Bolt matchups, you just
need to see, like, how often doI hit, like, everything from the
start of the game to the end ofthe game to win it.

Liam (01:05:49):
Yeah.

Abaan (01:05:50):
hard to give, like, a blanket statement of, like, how
much data you need to, like, be

Liam (01:05:53):
No, yeah, like, I think

Cameron (01:05:55):
And I think it helps to have multiple good players
because, as we said, like,everyone's playstyle is
different, like, how you can

Liam (01:06:00):
yeah, people have blind spots,

Cameron (01:06:02):
uh, so how you approach a matchup is, like, very
different, so, I think, goingback to that, like, my playstyle
is, I just find, typically whatI do is I just find something
that's kind of broken, and jamit down, and hope that it breaks
through the opponent, and thatshows up in a couple different
decks, like, Fake Evolt Path,Mew Path, Judge Path, Iron
Thorns, like, it's just like,

Abaan (01:06:23):
really don't like Rulebox Pokémon having abilities.
That seems to be your only

Cameron (01:06:27):
no items, it's just like you know, I kind of just
have like one style, and like alot of

Abaan (01:06:33):
Pokémon using an ability, Shinoa is cooked.
cannot win.

Cameron (01:06:37):
And I don't know, sometimes when people are
playing the deck, I just feellike they're playing a little
I'm not sure if I'm being toopassive or just not aggressive
enough.
They're just like, oh, why wouldI prime catcher here?
It's like, no, because you'rejust trying to like ability lock
with Ironthorns and just likehope that they just fall to
pieces right now.
You can't let them get going atall.
And they're like, oh, why don'tI just like sit back and try to
charge up a turn.

Liam (01:06:59):
dude, that's,

Cameron (01:07:00):
But that's like, and that could happen for me for
like a more controlly deck.
Like it just depends on youknow, how you're poaching the
matchup with a certain deck.

Liam (01:07:08):
I, I think that that somewhat touches on something I
was telling Abad, which is, Ithink variety is, like, super
important when you'repracticing.
Like, when you're trying to getbetter at the game, putting
yourself in a variety ofsituations is really important.
That's why, that's why I thinkthe TCG Live meta, that might be
a whole thing, bro.
Like,

Abaan (01:07:26):
I will say

Liam (01:07:27):
Live, hit the ladder, that actually might be

Abaan (01:07:30):
You've like, kind of convinced me, because I do play
a lot of games by myself, andlike, a lot of them follow a
similar pattern.
And like, maybe that's like,very close to optimal, but like,
sometimes, like, I definitelythink, the position speaks for
itself.
Like, in the sense that, like, Ican't, you can't force, if
you're playing the same patternof game, maybe you truly are
drawing hands that are supposedto be played like that.
But there's definitely somespots where I just have, like,

(01:07:51):
weaknesses, where I just like,didn't, like, Because it's hard
to like put yourself in like ablind perspective and you're
like you don't know like oh I'msupposed to just pull the
trigger and like go for itbecause like So I see the other
person's hand and like you'renot supposed to use that and
like I try my best not to butsometimes You just know like if
they did go for the all in pullthe trigger play They would just
lose on the spot.
I have it all right, and thenyou're just like but it's hard
to analyze like Analyze like ohthat game is supposed to be over

(01:08:14):
like right now because they'resupposed to pull the trigger
That's their highest percentageline.
I'm supposed to just have it andthen that's the end of the game
That's how it's supposed to go,right?
And I thought it was interestingto know like I feel like in a
lot of ways we complement eachother Well, because like when I
play you a lot of times you'rejust doing something ridiculous
Like, you're using, like, a lotof resources, and most of the
time, okay, not most of thetime, like, some percentage of
the time, you're just, like,trolling.

(01:08:34):
You're just using way too manyresources, and I'm like, this
is, like, this isn't, you can'tplay like this, right?
But every now and then, you'veused all your resources in some
ridiculous way, and then I'mlike, man, you got me this time.
I don't, I don't have it.

Liam (01:08:45):
Dude,

Cameron (01:08:48):
weaved the way to like a board state where it was like,
I kind of crippled you, it wasenough to get me there.
And sometimes I pull the triggeron like a spot that's like, not
crippling enough, and then it'sjust like, ah, I gotta learn the
balance.

Liam (01:09:01):
That's like the most annoying thing in the world,
bro, is when people gounpunished after just like,
running it down and sending alltheir resources at you, and
you're like,

Abaan (01:09:08):
dude

Liam (01:09:09):
this guy,

Abaan (01:09:09):
funniest game, I had like, some Manaphy active, and
like, it was like, Pidgey,Charmander bench, and he was
playing Raging Bull, and hecatches my Charmander, and I'm
looking at the candy Pidgey onmy hand, and I was like, bro,
like, it's not even about thisin my hand, just take the
Pidgey, like, I promise you, onaverage, it's just better,
right?
He takes the Pidgey, right?
And then, I like, the next turn,I like, have to like, I just
reset snap, and like, Have tolike, poff in and pass, right?

(01:09:30):
And then like, later, like he,off the stamp, he completely
whiffs, and then I just like,Zard, and like, sweep him,
right?
And then afterwards, he goes,man, I should've taken the
Charmander, I was like, whatthe, what, how is that even
possibly the takeaway from that?
I would've just CandyPidgeotted, grabbed the
Charmander, been completelychilling, like, leaning back,
and it would've been like, tentimes easier for me to beat you.
Instead I had a Sacc, and hegoes, man, ah, I should've

(01:09:51):
listened to my gut, bro.
I was like, what the hell?

Liam (01:09:55):
Bro, it's all about the gut.
It's all about the gut.

Abaan (01:09:57):
man.

Liam (01:09:59):
Alright we've been going on, going for an hour, somehow
made another hour with like,basically zero events happening
in the Pokemon community, but Ithink that's a good place to
leave it off for today.

Abaan (01:10:09):
It's like, we're the Seinfeld of podcasts.
Oh, sorry, sorry.
We're like the Seinfeld ofpodcasts.
Like an hour podcast aboutnothing.

Liam (01:10:16):
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, the John Pauls R outro.
We will see y'all next week.