October 24, 2025 • 30 mins
Michael is the CEO and Co-Founder The Stella Center whose mission is to advance the understanding, destigmatization, and treatment of post-traumatic stress and other emotional trauma, grounded in science, rooted in compassion, and relentlessly committed to a world where no person needlessly suffers.
Stella Center is disrupting the mental and emotional health industry by advancing breakthrough modalities that dramatically reduce symptoms of PTSD and other emotional trauma related symptoms.
In This Episode
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Stella Center is disrupting the mental and emotional health industry by advancing breakthrough modalities that dramatically reduce symptoms of PTSD and other emotional trauma related symptoms.
In This Episode
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You can learn more about what I do here:
The Trauma Therapist Newsletter: celebrates the people and voices in the mental health profession. And it's free! Check it out here: https://bit.ly/4jGBeSa
———
If you’d like to support The Trauma Therapist Podcast and the work I do you can do that here with a monthly donation of $5, $7, or $10: Donate to The Trauma Therapist Podcast.
Click here to join my email list and receive podcast updates and other news.
Thank you to our Sponsors:
Incogni - Use code [traumatherapist] and get 60% off annual plans: https://incogni.com/traumatherapist
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Trauma Theriver's podcast. My name is guiming
Person and I interview incredible people who share the story
of how trauma has shaped their lives. And a big
thank you for sponsoring today's episode goes to my guest
and our sponsors. So five four, three, two and one,
(00:23):
Our folks, welcome back to the podcast. Very excited to
happen with my guest today, Michael Grishnzen. Michael, welcome, come,
thank you for having me all right man. So Michael
is the CEO and co founder of the Stellar Center,
whose mission is to advance the understanding, destigmatization, and treatment
of post traumatic stress and other emotional trauma. Grounded in science,
(00:46):
rooted in compassion, and relentlessly committed to a world where
no person needlessly stuffers, Stellar Center is disrupting the mental
and emotional health industry by advancing breakthrough modalities that dramatically
reduced symptoms PTSD and other emotional trauma related symptoms. Oh, Michael, obviously,
just a little bit about you. But before you go
(01:07):
and share with our listeners, where you're from originally and
where you are currently.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
That's a complicated question. Originally, I was born in Moscow,
rough moved to date.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
I have that common migration path of Dayton and I'm
sure you've read it, but I'd say I'm more of
an Ohio and at heart, so we'll call it a Dayton.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Home and currently Chicago, Chicago, sir, okay, So let's get
into it here. How did all this start? For you?
Speaker 3 (01:41):
Very great question. I guess have no business being in
this business. I'll start with that, so I guess by trade.
Over the last fifteen years of my career have been
in finance, investment, banking, private equity. And the day after
Thanksgiving in twenty nineteen, UH kind of had it had
(02:02):
a personal event. Someone, someone that I knew, died by
suicide and it was my first I guess for a
into into.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Mental health from from personal lens.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
And let's say that that tripped a litany of events.
So actually, at that person's funeral, I met doctor Whipoff,
that is our chief medical officer and co founder, who
was progressing innovation in in PTSD interventional psychiatry, and.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Three three weeks later we we.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Aligned on on the mission to bring UH at least
at the time stell it gangling block for PTSD two
as many let's call it uh access points in the
country as possible.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
So started the business three.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
Weeks before COVID descended upon the world, and very very
quickly had to had to figure out how how we'd continue.
But would say for the first couple of years we
partnered with a lot of mission oriented practitioners to let's say,
kind of execute the care delivery. And then over the
(03:10):
last couple of years we've actually been building out our
own our own centers and offering a much broader array
of treatments countrywide.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
All right, so let's go back a little bit here.
So this friend relative person close to you commits suicide.
You said that kind of tipped the litany or cause
a litany of what events take Take me a little
more specifically into what was going on for you.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
Yeah, no, of course I have lived a pretty charmed
life myself, so.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
That was that was pretty shocking, I guess. So confusion
was the first thing.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
Actually I had been speaking with this person about this
this concept, and in a note QF behind you wished
me and us a look in in progressing this. So
I would say, I don't know, you tell me as
as the clindician in the room. Shock awe confusion, not
(04:23):
knowing what to do necessarily, and I would say, h once,
once that wore off, I mean again, I'm kind of
fortunate to be in an ecosystem, having at the time
been working at a private equity firm that is now
our kind of core investor, with a ton of incredibly
supportive people. That turned into action, I would say, and again.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Well, that's kind of what I want to get at here.
So how does that turn into action for you? I mean,
obviously this impacted you, a tragic event like this, but
how does that How did that for you turn into action?
For me?
Speaker 2 (05:05):
That turned into action? I wished that.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
I wish there was some very articulately well thought out plan.
It was just kind of like, I don't know, we
got to do something, or like, well.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
That that's it. You're like, w TF, what the hell
is going on here? Yeah? Did you feel like you
didn't know what to do or there weren't like why
didn't why was it? My friend identified how come she
couldn't get any help with what was What was it? Specifically?
Why did you take action? I guess that was my question. Why?
Speaker 3 (05:40):
Well, first, again, I have no no background and mental health.
It was it was it was the why I mean,
you just said it it was, Well, that's very confusing.
I mean you read about all the horrific stats, but
you don't really ingest stats the way you do a story.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Or a personal outcome. So it was a lot of confusion.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
So this individual was outwardly gregarious and very likable and successful, and.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
And you're doing the whole what did we miss thing?
If that makes any sense.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
So yeah, it makes perfect sense. So let me just
stub you. So this obviously was a friend of yours
or very close friend.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Of yours, fairly close friend.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Okay, okay, and just no idea type thing or.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Uh, just no idea type thing.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
So so again he had gotten to know doctor Whipoff
and was actually irony and all of this was.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
He was furthering this.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
Concept with doctor Whipoff to bring these treatments out into
the world. And we can all credit I would say,
this person with with with the founding here, So that
compounded the confusion, I would I would say, in so
(07:11):
far as it was a mission oriented person that outwardly
you couldn't see any issues, that was furthering helping others,
and it was a passion project of his.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
All all the more, all the more confusion.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
So I would say that turned into what he's like,
you asked action, and so far as I was just
more or less picking up the baton of of what
it started with doctor Whipoff in bringing these treatments out
out into the world.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
So you start talking to doctor whip Off and what
were you initially saying? What we? What we? Was your
what was your idea?
Speaker 3 (08:00):
Yeah, so the idea was a pretty point solution insofar
as antesiologists and pain practitioners do a very common procedure
called the stellic ganglion block for pain and other what's
called somatic indications. Well, twenty years ago he found out
and progressed the science along with others that well and behold,
(08:21):
there are physiological benefits to that as well, namely PTSD
symptom reduction, anxiety symptom reduction for reasons I will never understand,
but calming the fight or flight, calming the amygdala, and
well and behold, a common procedure executed probably thousands of
times a day, can be delivered in a psych for
(08:45):
psychiatric indications.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
So from that same point, it's a.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
Very simple idea, which is hey, we've got this incredibly
useful it's called tool or modality, which coincidentally that same
week had put out a randomized clinical trial around the
efficacy of this modality.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
So there was just this odd.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
Coincidental confluence of events where got this modality. It works
a lot better than anything for a chronic condition. PTSD
is incredibly difficult to treat, and I don't want to
say all we have to do, but all we have
to do is train practitioners where to put the needle,
identify the patients, and handle the mental health care kind
(09:30):
of before and after this pointed procedure, and a lot
of people can get help. So I would say that
was the idea. That's what we executed for the better
part of two years in a bit of a different
way than we thought we would. And so far as
we thought we'd build centers of excellence, people would travel
to us. Again, being born during COVID, all of a sudden,
(09:53):
that's not so much an option.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
So we went the inverse.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
We brought the service delivery to as many backyards by
partnering with practitioners and training them on.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Doctor Whipoff's protocol.
Speaker 3 (10:09):
So we try to bring access out to people instead
of having people come to us, and that was what's
called V one of of our of our care model.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
So this modality, uh, and correct me if I'm wrong here?
Is it dual sympathetic reset DSR Y s R. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
So stella Gangway block is a single injection and it's
a commonly known kind of pain. So actually anesthesia version
of our enhanced protocol dual sympathetic reset, which is two
injections at various kind of vertebra rae level with C
four and C six in in the neck.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
And does someone come in, how does the treatment regimen go?
How does does someone come in for once or twice?
How long does this stay?
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Perfect question?
Speaker 3 (11:05):
So I'd say, first and foremost and maybe most importantly
a great biopsychosocial assessment on the front end to properly
diagnose the symptoms. So there's we start every care journey
with at least a one hour one hour assessment with
a psychiatric mental health nurse practitioner. Assuming there is an
(11:28):
indication of PTSD or anxiety, which is typically just indicated
for then they would get scheduled for treatment. Now on
treatment date. The typical protocol is on the right side
of the neck. You would have two injections that day
at the C four and the C six level, and
many people within ten to fifteen minutes, by the way,
(11:51):
myself included, feel a kind of physiological alleviation of anxiety symptoms,
almost kind of like this calm.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
Washes over you. Run's experience obviously is different.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
Some people are non responders about twenty percent, and that's
day one done on the right side of the neck.
For those that are non responders or don't have some
profound response, oftentimes the same procedure on a separate day
on the web side of the neck is incredibly beneficial
and can lead to either enhanced outcomes from day one
(12:28):
or if you're a non responder on day one, the
second procedure day on the web side of the neck
can can kind of have those breakthrough outcomes, and typically
that will be if it's going to if someone is
going to feel better, it's within those.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
Two procedure days.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
Now, the maintenance regiment, I would say it's pretty hyper
dynamic with a person's lifestyle, the type of stress or
lack they're up, they're going to, how well they may
be maintaining their games with therapy and other modalities. We're
(13:07):
the first to say this is not not a cure.
It's just a meaningful kind of alleviation of symptoms, and
it creates kind of a what's called a breakthrough window
to maintain the gains.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
So we'll typically see people one time.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
I would say there are certain maybe populations first responders,
active military that may be going back into stressful environments
that we're retreating every six, six months, twelve months. But
in short, it's a pretty short lived protocol and then
thereafter it's what's called as needed.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
When you start. So how long have has STELLA been
up and running.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
We've been open running about five years.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
Five years. Okay, what's been your journey personally, I'm curious
as as you've taken this on.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
Wow, that's a it's a deep question. I would say
our journey has been My journey has been an evolving one.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
So I think we and.
Speaker 3 (14:12):
I came into the industry maybe a little naively, frankly,
thinking that kind of a cash pay modality can reach
more people than it ended up, or that we can reach.
At the end of the day, our number one, two
and three goal has always been access and and we
(14:36):
thought still think but.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
Since the outcomes are so great.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
Certainly soon enough this will be covered, and certainly soon
enough patients aren't.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Paying fully out of pocket.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
And I guess maybe, unfortunately that's moved slower than than
we thought. Though we are making progress putting out research,
doing randomized clinical trials.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
We have one with NYU kind of as we speak.
So I would say, in order to.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
Alleviate the patient and expand access, alleviate the need for payment,
we brought in more modalities that are insurance reimbursable and
in their own right very effective. So Bravado, which is
a ketamine derivative as ketemine is reimbursed by insurance and
provides incredible relief to people struggling with major depressive disorder
(15:31):
and treamers as the depression TMS also insurance reimbursed and
and has incredible outcomes. So maybe the benefit and I'd say,
maybe we've we timed it luckily, or we entered entered,
entered this space. And so far as there's a lot
of really great innovation in some ways not done by
(15:52):
us in interventional psychiatry, and so far as these additional
modalities are coming to market, and I think our job
is to be in some ways or in a lot
of ways, modality agnostic, just whatever.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
The best I'll call them tools available are.
Speaker 3 (16:10):
It's our job to create the ecosystem for our providers
to be able to deliver these to the.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Right patient set. And by the way, we're learning, because
we're pretty.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
Dogmatic about tracking outcomes, it's usually not a clean PTSD
diagnosis where you just have one SGB or TSR. There's
usually comorbid depression, comorbid anxiety, and multiple modalities paired together
are usually leading to the best outcomes. So, in short,
I would say my journey, our journey and the challenges,
(16:43):
but the opportunity have been going from a point solution
to a point indication DSR for PTSD to now we
have general psychiatry, med management, and therapy and those four
interventional modalities and bringing that into the clinic, bringing that
to patients responsibly.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
Has been incredibly.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
Challenging, incredibly rewarding, and frankly will probably be a decade
more of.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
An opportunity.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
What has been the challenge of getting it out there? Yeah,
you said, you said, you got into this kind of
naively hoping a cash paid system would kind of make
everything equitable for people and be able to reach more people.
(17:37):
Why has it been so challenging?
Speaker 2 (17:40):
How long do you got?
Speaker 3 (17:41):
But maybe the number one, two and three things that
we've learned and have had to develop a core competency
end as maybe boring as it sounds, but just the
infrastructure to effectively build insurance and working those pay relationships.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
There's prior authoration.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
I'd say, hurdles maybe for good reason, that are put
in place, and being able to seamlessly communicate with the
payer who at the end of the day in some
ways as your customer at least is cutting the check
while engaging the patient. Right, we want to be patient centric.
These admin processes can take a lot of time. Patients
(18:26):
don't have time. They deserve to be tomorrow. So I
would say it again as back office see and transparently.
I kind of didn't think this.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
Would need to be one of the core and central
roles of our company.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
But it's being able to seamlessly get prior authorization on
the front end, treat a patient and get paid on
the back end, and doing that at scale. We're still
working on it. We're a lot better today than than
certainly we were a couple of years ago.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
But I would say.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
That has been that is the challenge to ask to
access and frankly, that is the opportunity to getting a
lot of people treated.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
So someone like yourself, who you talked about in the beginning,
you know, your background has certainly not been in the
space and the mental health space and trauma or PTSD,
but it's been in investment banking. What how how do
(19:28):
you how are you dealing with this? Because to me,
this topic is however, I mean you got a friend
who committed suicide. I mean it's it's it's it's very intense.
However way you want to slice it, How have you
been dealing with this topic as you've been going on
(19:50):
in this business.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Yeah, that's a great question. I would say.
Speaker 3 (19:57):
My job is to be I'll almost say middleman in
some ways between to your earlier point, I can't add
value on the clinical side.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
I'm not a condition. I don't deserve an opinion.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
I am a uniquely qualified to connect capital and investors
that are mission oriented to an industry that is still
figuring itself out in a lot of ways, and there
isn't a beautiful crisp business model. So connecting the ability
to grow and scale and reach more people. Is I
(20:34):
would say, how how I view my role in our
role frankly again as middleman has maybe a derogatory connotation
to it, but we're Our job is to deliver and
be modality agnostic, deliver outcomes to patients. We don't deliver
(20:54):
a shot in the neck.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
We deliver right.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
We don't deliver spravado or i ket. I mean we
deliver someone feeling better. So being able to work within
the confines of a business muhuddle deal with the insurance
landscape as the industry is very much figuring itself out.
I mean, psychiatry and psychology have been medications and therapy
for the better part of I don't know, fifty one
(21:20):
hundred years, and only in the last five to ten
our novel, I would say, innovations coming to market, So
being able to connect the capital with the ability to scale,
with the business model and maybe most importantly the right clinicians.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
That's our job.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
That's my job, and every day brings a challenge from
that standpoint.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
But I think really at Stellin, I'm sure at other.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
Companies doing something similar, it's frankly, the mission that keeps
you coming back. We've got so many patient stories, so
many data points. It's not about I don't know what's
squeaking out another nickel of profit.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
It's about treating one more person.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
Let me just remind everyone I'm speaking with Michael Grshenzen
of still at Mental Health. You mentioned some studies that
have been done and that are going on. I'd love
to be able to include a link to one of
those in the show notes page. Can you tell me
about one of those?
Speaker 2 (22:29):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
The one that we're pushing forward is a randomized clinical
trial with NYU, and they are one of the foremost
leaders in PTSD research. So that study is a double
blinded randomized clinical trial where fifty people are getting a
it's called shame injection, one hundred people get the real
(22:53):
act of agent injection.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
And maybe most excitingly.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
Or I think what we're hopeful progress in the way
of science here is thes are getting a fMRI before
and after the procedure in mental health is maybe you
can appreciate outcomes are quoted in the way of subjective
scales GAD, p H, p.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
U PC, how are you feeling in some ways? Maybe
that's the important thing.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
But I think we're trying to take some of that
subjectivity and bring it to the objective, namely through uh,
these brain scans. So someone gets scanned prior to and
after a procedure, and in some ways they're their own
control control group. Notably the people that get the sham injection,
they do have the option to get to get the
(23:44):
real thing after they are unblindedge towards at the end
of the study. So happy to happy to share the link.
But that's uh, we're hopeful we'll come to a conclusion
here in the next quarter or so and and the
outcomes will be published maybe in six to nine months.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
So someone come to Stella. Do you do you folks?
You mentioned you offered kind of a variety of premium modalities.
Do you offer groups or individual sessions? How does it work?
Speaker 2 (24:17):
Yeah, great question.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
I would say there's a little nuanced by market. We're
we're kind of scattershot across the country. But yes, generally
we offer one on one therapy, we'll offer obviously medication
management and those interventional modalities.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Group is something we're working towards.
Speaker 3 (24:37):
I think it's it's done a little more sporadically, not
that we're not believers in it. We're trying to do
do what we do well rather than maybe maybe deluting
our focus. But yes, we definitely, we definitely do offer
therapy and our huge believers that the interventions offer a
(24:57):
window to actually make lifestyle changes.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
And it kind of and again I'm.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
Speaking from my own personal experience as a patient multiple
times of our own services. It gives you a window
to breathe, and therapy is a critical part in uh
in maintaining and accelerating those gains. So it definitely a
key part of our care model.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
I'm curious, Michael, if your experience with your friend's suicide
if that kind of opened the door to reflect on
your own self. I mean, I'm sure it did, but
I'm guess curious how did that reflect on you? And
because you know, I've been doing this for for several
(25:46):
years and one of the things I realized is we've
all got stuff going on, right, I Mean, no one
comes out of this life unscathed. But I'm curious to
what degree did and how did that experience and make
you reflect on on your you?
Speaker 3 (26:03):
Yeah, in some in some ways, like I mentioned, I was,
I was pretty naive to mental health and and I'm
sure was in hindsight walking past people suffering. I think
the way that it's impacted me is again haven't had
my own experience and treatment, And I think it just
(26:27):
opens you up to the exact statement you made that
the person you're talking to, the person you're walking by,
they've got their own stuff going on and and the
benefit of the doubt is something that or or just
being aware of that is is something I've tried to
take into my own personal life.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
So I'm not sure if that.
Speaker 3 (26:49):
That crispally answers your question, but I'm rather than jumping
to conclusions and judgments, I would say I'm a little
bit more able to take pause, and I appreciate exactly
what you said. We're all on we're all scathed in
our own way, we're imperfect and I and if we're
(27:10):
just if we believe that the other person's doing their best,
everything generally generally falls into place there after.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
Yeah, you know, I mean to me, what you're doing
and who you are is very inspiring. You know you
you kind of opened up this interview by saying, you
know you have no business being in this field, et cetera,
et cetera. But not everyone who has an experience like
yours turns around and does something like what you've done,
(27:43):
you know, so from my perspective, and not that you are,
but I don't. I don't think you need to sell
yourself so short. I mean, I think it's incredible to
take an experience like that, or to go through an
experience like that, and two yes, recognize how tragic it is.
But to do something, I mean, that's what that's what
it's about. From my perspective. You know, what can we
(28:03):
do to help other people?
Speaker 2 (28:05):
You're making me blush? No, I really do appreciate you
saying that.
Speaker 3 (28:11):
Yeah, I don't know exactly exactly where to to take
that other than the safe thank you, and and I agree, yeah, yeah,
so you got to take take life changing events, I suppose,
and do something with them.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
All right, Michael. What's the best way for people to
learn more about what you're doing? Get in touch with.
Speaker 3 (28:36):
You, absolutely, Stella. Mentalhealth dot com probably the best way
to find.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Us, okay, And I'm just looking at your website now,
I see here, I see a mental health quiz on there.
So who would this before? Ye with this before?
Speaker 2 (28:56):
And actually that's that's very topical.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
We're working on publishing are our kind of internally collected outcomes.
So we've got for twelve thousand, five hundred patients, we
have kind of longitudinal data about how they felt before
they started with us.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
And how they fell out over time with us.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
So actually we will be connecting those outcomes to that
exact quiz you're you're mentioning here in the next month
or so. That quiz is for anyone that doesn't know
where to start, I would say, and and I'll say,
it's not a some magical ho stella quiz. These are
kind of developed instruments p C, L, GAD pH Q
(29:36):
that are that are kind of well recognized to help
people better understand their own symptoms or at least clinicians
understand how how their patients may be feeling. So again,
nothing proprietary there, It's just it's an ability for for
folks to answer some questions and and kind of receive
confidentially a stop very short to calling it any diagnosis,
(30:01):
but how they quiz may place them into mild, moderate,
or severe criteria across depression, anxiety, and and PTSD.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Awesome, Okay, we'll have that linked up here at the
show notes page at the Trauma Therapist podcast dot com Michael,
awesome man. Thank you so much for taking the time
to be here and again super inspiring. I appreciate that
you have all right man, We'll be in touch day
Welcome to the Trauma Theriver's podcast. My name is guiming
Person and I interview incredible people who share the story
of how trauma has shaped their lives. And a big
thank you for sponsoring today's episode goes to my guest
and our sponsors. So five four, three, two and one,
(00:23):
Our folks, welcome back to the podcast. Very excited to
happen with my guest today, Michael Grishnzen. Michael, welcome, come,
thank you for having me all right man. So Michael
is the CEO and co founder of the Stellar Center,
whose mission is to advance the understanding, destigmatization, and treatment
of post traumatic stress and other emotional trauma. Grounded in science,
(00:46):
rooted in compassion, and relentlessly committed to a world where
no person needlessly stuffers, Stellar Center is disrupting the mental
and emotional health industry by advancing breakthrough modalities that dramatically
reduced symptoms PTSD and other emotional trauma related symptoms. Oh, Michael, obviously,
just a little bit about you. But before you go
(01:07):
and share with our listeners, where you're from originally and
where you are currently.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
That's a complicated question. Originally, I was born in Moscow,
rough moved to date.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
I have that common migration path of Dayton and I'm
sure you've read it, but I'd say I'm more of
an Ohio and at heart, so we'll call it a Dayton.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Home and currently Chicago, Chicago, sir, okay, So let's get
into it here. How did all this start? For you?
Speaker 3 (01:41):
Very great question. I guess have no business being in
this business. I'll start with that, so I guess by trade.
Over the last fifteen years of my career have been
in finance, investment, banking, private equity. And the day after
Thanksgiving in twenty nineteen, UH kind of had it had
(02:02):
a personal event. Someone, someone that I knew, died by
suicide and it was my first I guess for a
into into.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Mental health from from personal lens.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
And let's say that that tripped a litany of events.
So actually, at that person's funeral, I met doctor Whipoff,
that is our chief medical officer and co founder, who
was progressing innovation in in PTSD interventional psychiatry, and.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Three three weeks later we we.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Aligned on on the mission to bring UH at least
at the time stell it gangling block for PTSD two
as many let's call it uh access points in the
country as possible.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
So started the business three.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
Weeks before COVID descended upon the world, and very very
quickly had to had to figure out how how we'd continue.
But would say for the first couple of years we
partnered with a lot of mission oriented practitioners to let's say,
kind of execute the care delivery. And then over the
(03:10):
last couple of years we've actually been building out our
own our own centers and offering a much broader array
of treatments countrywide.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
All right, so let's go back a little bit here.
So this friend relative person close to you commits suicide.
You said that kind of tipped the litany or cause
a litany of what events take Take me a little
more specifically into what was going on for you.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
Yeah, no, of course I have lived a pretty charmed
life myself, so.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
That was that was pretty shocking, I guess. So confusion
was the first thing.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
Actually I had been speaking with this person about this
this concept, and in a note QF behind you wished
me and us a look in in progressing this. So
I would say, I don't know, you tell me as
as the clindician in the room. Shock awe confusion, not
(04:23):
knowing what to do necessarily, and I would say, h once,
once that wore off, I mean again, I'm kind of
fortunate to be in an ecosystem, having at the time
been working at a private equity firm that is now
our kind of core investor, with a ton of incredibly
supportive people. That turned into action, I would say, and again.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Well, that's kind of what I want to get at here.
So how does that turn into action for you? I mean,
obviously this impacted you, a tragic event like this, but
how does that How did that for you turn into action?
For me?
Speaker 2 (05:05):
That turned into action? I wished that.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
I wish there was some very articulately well thought out plan.
It was just kind of like, I don't know, we
got to do something, or like, well.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
That that's it. You're like, w TF, what the hell
is going on here? Yeah? Did you feel like you
didn't know what to do or there weren't like why
didn't why was it? My friend identified how come she
couldn't get any help with what was What was it? Specifically?
Why did you take action? I guess that was my question. Why?
Speaker 3 (05:40):
Well, first, again, I have no no background and mental health.
It was it was it was the why I mean,
you just said it it was, Well, that's very confusing.
I mean you read about all the horrific stats, but
you don't really ingest stats the way you do a story.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Or a personal outcome. So it was a lot of confusion.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
So this individual was outwardly gregarious and very likable and successful, and.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
And you're doing the whole what did we miss thing?
If that makes any sense.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
So yeah, it makes perfect sense. So let me just
stub you. So this obviously was a friend of yours
or very close friend.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
Of yours, fairly close friend.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Okay, okay, and just no idea type thing or.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Uh, just no idea type thing.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
So so again he had gotten to know doctor Whipoff
and was actually irony and all of this was.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
He was furthering this.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
Concept with doctor Whipoff to bring these treatments out into
the world. And we can all credit I would say,
this person with with with the founding here, So that
compounded the confusion, I would I would say, in so
(07:11):
far as it was a mission oriented person that outwardly
you couldn't see any issues, that was furthering helping others,
and it was a passion project of his.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
All all the more, all the more confusion.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
So I would say that turned into what he's like,
you asked action, and so far as I was just
more or less picking up the baton of of what
it started with doctor Whipoff in bringing these treatments out
out into the world.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
So you start talking to doctor whip Off and what
were you initially saying? What we? What we? Was your
what was your idea?
Speaker 3 (08:00):
Yeah, so the idea was a pretty point solution insofar
as antesiologists and pain practitioners do a very common procedure
called the stellic ganglion block for pain and other what's
called somatic indications. Well, twenty years ago he found out
and progressed the science along with others that well and behold,
(08:21):
there are physiological benefits to that as well, namely PTSD
symptom reduction, anxiety symptom reduction for reasons I will never understand,
but calming the fight or flight, calming the amygdala, and
well and behold, a common procedure executed probably thousands of
times a day, can be delivered in a psych for
(08:45):
psychiatric indications.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
So from that same point, it's a.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
Very simple idea, which is hey, we've got this incredibly
useful it's called tool or modality, which coincidentally that same
week had put out a randomized clinical trial around the
efficacy of this modality.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
So there was just this odd.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
Coincidental confluence of events where got this modality. It works
a lot better than anything for a chronic condition. PTSD
is incredibly difficult to treat, and I don't want to
say all we have to do, but all we have
to do is train practitioners where to put the needle,
identify the patients, and handle the mental health care kind
(09:30):
of before and after this pointed procedure, and a lot
of people can get help. So I would say that
was the idea. That's what we executed for the better
part of two years in a bit of a different
way than we thought we would. And so far as
we thought we'd build centers of excellence, people would travel
to us. Again, being born during COVID, all of a sudden,
(09:53):
that's not so much an option.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
So we went the inverse.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
We brought the service delivery to as many backyards by
partnering with practitioners and training them on.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Doctor Whipoff's protocol.
Speaker 3 (10:09):
So we try to bring access out to people instead
of having people come to us, and that was what's
called V one of of our of our care model.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
So this modality, uh, and correct me if I'm wrong here?
Is it dual sympathetic reset DSR Y s R. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
So stella Gangway block is a single injection and it's
a commonly known kind of pain. So actually anesthesia version
of our enhanced protocol dual sympathetic reset, which is two
injections at various kind of vertebra rae level with C
four and C six in in the neck.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
And does someone come in, how does the treatment regimen go?
How does does someone come in for once or twice?
How long does this stay?
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Perfect question?
Speaker 3 (11:05):
So I'd say, first and foremost and maybe most importantly
a great biopsychosocial assessment on the front end to properly
diagnose the symptoms. So there's we start every care journey
with at least a one hour one hour assessment with
a psychiatric mental health nurse practitioner. Assuming there is an
(11:28):
indication of PTSD or anxiety, which is typically just indicated
for then they would get scheduled for treatment. Now on
treatment date. The typical protocol is on the right side
of the neck. You would have two injections that day
at the C four and the C six level, and
many people within ten to fifteen minutes, by the way,
(11:51):
myself included, feel a kind of physiological alleviation of anxiety symptoms,
almost kind of like this calm.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
Washes over you. Run's experience obviously is different.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
Some people are non responders about twenty percent, and that's
day one done on the right side of the neck.
For those that are non responders or don't have some
profound response, oftentimes the same procedure on a separate day
on the web side of the neck is incredibly beneficial
and can lead to either enhanced outcomes from day one
(12:28):
or if you're a non responder on day one, the
second procedure day on the web side of the neck
can can kind of have those breakthrough outcomes, and typically
that will be if it's going to if someone is
going to feel better, it's within those.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
Two procedure days.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
Now, the maintenance regiment, I would say it's pretty hyper
dynamic with a person's lifestyle, the type of stress or
lack they're up, they're going to, how well they may
be maintaining their games with therapy and other modalities. We're
(13:07):
the first to say this is not not a cure.
It's just a meaningful kind of alleviation of symptoms, and
it creates kind of a what's called a breakthrough window
to maintain the gains.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
So we'll typically see people one time.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
I would say there are certain maybe populations first responders,
active military that may be going back into stressful environments
that we're retreating every six, six months, twelve months. But
in short, it's a pretty short lived protocol and then
thereafter it's what's called as needed.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
When you start. So how long have has STELLA been
up and running.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
We've been open running about five years.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
Five years. Okay, what's been your journey personally, I'm curious
as as you've taken this on.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
Wow, that's a it's a deep question. I would say
our journey has been My journey has been an evolving one.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
So I think we and.
Speaker 3 (14:12):
I came into the industry maybe a little naively, frankly,
thinking that kind of a cash pay modality can reach
more people than it ended up, or that we can reach.
At the end of the day, our number one, two
and three goal has always been access and and we
(14:36):
thought still think but.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
Since the outcomes are so great.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
Certainly soon enough this will be covered, and certainly soon
enough patients aren't.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Paying fully out of pocket.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
And I guess maybe, unfortunately that's moved slower than than
we thought. Though we are making progress putting out research,
doing randomized clinical trials.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
We have one with NYU kind of as we speak.
So I would say, in order to.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
Alleviate the patient and expand access, alleviate the need for payment,
we brought in more modalities that are insurance reimbursable and
in their own right very effective. So Bravado, which is
a ketamine derivative as ketemine is reimbursed by insurance and
provides incredible relief to people struggling with major depressive disorder
(15:31):
and treamers as the depression TMS also insurance reimbursed and
and has incredible outcomes. So maybe the benefit and I'd say,
maybe we've we timed it luckily, or we entered entered,
entered this space. And so far as there's a lot
of really great innovation in some ways not done by
(15:52):
us in interventional psychiatry, and so far as these additional
modalities are coming to market, and I think our job
is to be in some ways or in a lot
of ways, modality agnostic, just whatever.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
The best I'll call them tools available are.
Speaker 3 (16:10):
It's our job to create the ecosystem for our providers
to be able to deliver these to the.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Right patient set. And by the way, we're learning, because
we're pretty.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
Dogmatic about tracking outcomes, it's usually not a clean PTSD
diagnosis where you just have one SGB or TSR. There's
usually comorbid depression, comorbid anxiety, and multiple modalities paired together
are usually leading to the best outcomes. So, in short,
I would say my journey, our journey and the challenges,
(16:43):
but the opportunity have been going from a point solution
to a point indication DSR for PTSD to now we
have general psychiatry, med management, and therapy and those four
interventional modalities and bringing that into the clinic, bringing that
to patients responsibly.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
Has been incredibly.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
Challenging, incredibly rewarding, and frankly will probably be a decade
more of.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
An opportunity.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
What has been the challenge of getting it out there? Yeah,
you said, you said, you got into this kind of
naively hoping a cash paid system would kind of make
everything equitable for people and be able to reach more people.
(17:37):
Why has it been so challenging?
Speaker 2 (17:40):
How long do you got?
Speaker 3 (17:41):
But maybe the number one, two and three things that
we've learned and have had to develop a core competency
end as maybe boring as it sounds, but just the
infrastructure to effectively build insurance and working those pay relationships.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
There's prior authoration.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
I'd say, hurdles maybe for good reason, that are put
in place, and being able to seamlessly communicate with the
payer who at the end of the day in some
ways as your customer at least is cutting the check
while engaging the patient. Right, we want to be patient centric.
These admin processes can take a lot of time. Patients
(18:26):
don't have time. They deserve to be tomorrow. So I
would say it again as back office see and transparently.
I kind of didn't think this.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
Would need to be one of the core and central
roles of our company.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
But it's being able to seamlessly get prior authorization on
the front end, treat a patient and get paid on
the back end, and doing that at scale. We're still
working on it. We're a lot better today than than
certainly we were a couple of years ago.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
But I would say.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
That has been that is the challenge to ask to
access and frankly, that is the opportunity to getting a
lot of people treated.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
So someone like yourself, who you talked about in the beginning,
you know, your background has certainly not been in the
space and the mental health space and trauma or PTSD,
but it's been in investment banking. What how how do
(19:28):
you how are you dealing with this? Because to me,
this topic is however, I mean you got a friend
who committed suicide. I mean it's it's it's it's very intense.
However way you want to slice it, How have you
been dealing with this topic as you've been going on
(19:50):
in this business.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Yeah, that's a great question. I would say.
Speaker 3 (19:57):
My job is to be I'll almost say middleman in
some ways between to your earlier point, I can't add
value on the clinical side.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
I'm not a condition. I don't deserve an opinion.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
I am a uniquely qualified to connect capital and investors
that are mission oriented to an industry that is still
figuring itself out in a lot of ways, and there
isn't a beautiful crisp business model. So connecting the ability
to grow and scale and reach more people. Is I
(20:34):
would say, how how I view my role in our
role frankly again as middleman has maybe a derogatory connotation
to it, but we're Our job is to deliver and
be modality agnostic, deliver outcomes to patients. We don't deliver
(20:54):
a shot in the neck.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
We deliver right.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
We don't deliver spravado or i ket. I mean we
deliver someone feeling better. So being able to work within
the confines of a business muhuddle deal with the insurance
landscape as the industry is very much figuring itself out.
I mean, psychiatry and psychology have been medications and therapy
for the better part of I don't know, fifty one
(21:20):
hundred years, and only in the last five to ten
our novel, I would say, innovations coming to market, So
being able to connect the capital with the ability to scale,
with the business model and maybe most importantly the right clinicians.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
That's our job.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
That's my job, and every day brings a challenge from
that standpoint.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
But I think really at Stellin, I'm sure at other.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
Companies doing something similar, it's frankly, the mission that keeps
you coming back. We've got so many patient stories, so
many data points. It's not about I don't know what's
squeaking out another nickel of profit.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
It's about treating one more person.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
Let me just remind everyone I'm speaking with Michael Grshenzen
of still at Mental Health. You mentioned some studies that
have been done and that are going on. I'd love
to be able to include a link to one of
those in the show notes page. Can you tell me
about one of those?
Speaker 2 (22:29):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
The one that we're pushing forward is a randomized clinical
trial with NYU, and they are one of the foremost
leaders in PTSD research. So that study is a double
blinded randomized clinical trial where fifty people are getting a
it's called shame injection, one hundred people get the real
(22:53):
act of agent injection.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
And maybe most excitingly.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
Or I think what we're hopeful progress in the way
of science here is thes are getting a fMRI before
and after the procedure in mental health is maybe you
can appreciate outcomes are quoted in the way of subjective
scales GAD, p H, p.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
U PC, how are you feeling in some ways? Maybe
that's the important thing.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
But I think we're trying to take some of that
subjectivity and bring it to the objective, namely through uh,
these brain scans. So someone gets scanned prior to and
after a procedure, and in some ways they're their own
control control group. Notably the people that get the sham injection,
they do have the option to get to get the
(23:44):
real thing after they are unblindedge towards at the end
of the study. So happy to happy to share the link.
But that's uh, we're hopeful we'll come to a conclusion
here in the next quarter or so and and the
outcomes will be published maybe in six to nine months.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
So someone come to Stella. Do you do you folks?
You mentioned you offered kind of a variety of premium modalities.
Do you offer groups or individual sessions? How does it work?
Speaker 2 (24:17):
Yeah, great question.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
I would say there's a little nuanced by market. We're
we're kind of scattershot across the country. But yes, generally
we offer one on one therapy, we'll offer obviously medication
management and those interventional modalities.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Group is something we're working towards.
Speaker 3 (24:37):
I think it's it's done a little more sporadically, not
that we're not believers in it. We're trying to do
do what we do well rather than maybe maybe deluting
our focus. But yes, we definitely, we definitely do offer
therapy and our huge believers that the interventions offer a
(24:57):
window to actually make lifestyle changes.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
And it kind of and again I'm.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
Speaking from my own personal experience as a patient multiple
times of our own services. It gives you a window
to breathe, and therapy is a critical part in uh
in maintaining and accelerating those gains. So it definitely a
key part of our care model.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
I'm curious, Michael, if your experience with your friend's suicide
if that kind of opened the door to reflect on
your own self. I mean, I'm sure it did, but
I'm guess curious how did that reflect on you? And
because you know, I've been doing this for for several
(25:46):
years and one of the things I realized is we've
all got stuff going on, right, I Mean, no one
comes out of this life unscathed. But I'm curious to
what degree did and how did that experience and make
you reflect on on your you?
Speaker 3 (26:03):
Yeah, in some in some ways, like I mentioned, I was,
I was pretty naive to mental health and and I'm
sure was in hindsight walking past people suffering. I think
the way that it's impacted me is again haven't had
my own experience and treatment, And I think it just
(26:27):
opens you up to the exact statement you made that
the person you're talking to, the person you're walking by,
they've got their own stuff going on and and the
benefit of the doubt is something that or or just
being aware of that is is something I've tried to
take into my own personal life.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
So I'm not sure if that.
Speaker 3 (26:49):
That crispally answers your question, but I'm rather than jumping
to conclusions and judgments, I would say I'm a little
bit more able to take pause, and I appreciate exactly
what you said. We're all on we're all scathed in
our own way, we're imperfect and I and if we're
(27:10):
just if we believe that the other person's doing their best,
everything generally generally falls into place there after.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
Yeah, you know, I mean to me, what you're doing
and who you are is very inspiring. You know you
you kind of opened up this interview by saying, you
know you have no business being in this field, et cetera,
et cetera. But not everyone who has an experience like
yours turns around and does something like what you've done,
(27:43):
you know, so from my perspective, and not that you are,
but I don't. I don't think you need to sell
yourself so short. I mean, I think it's incredible to
take an experience like that, or to go through an
experience like that, and two yes, recognize how tragic it is.
But to do something, I mean, that's what that's what
it's about. From my perspective. You know, what can we
(28:03):
do to help other people?
Speaker 2 (28:05):
You're making me blush? No, I really do appreciate you
saying that.
Speaker 3 (28:11):
Yeah, I don't know exactly exactly where to to take
that other than the safe thank you, and and I agree, yeah, yeah,
so you got to take take life changing events, I suppose,
and do something with them.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
All right, Michael. What's the best way for people to
learn more about what you're doing? Get in touch with.
Speaker 3 (28:36):
You, absolutely, Stella. Mentalhealth dot com probably the best way
to find.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Us, okay, And I'm just looking at your website now,
I see here, I see a mental health quiz on there.
So who would this before? Ye with this before?
Speaker 2 (28:56):
And actually that's that's very topical.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
We're working on publishing are our kind of internally collected outcomes.
So we've got for twelve thousand, five hundred patients, we
have kind of longitudinal data about how they felt before
they started with us.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
And how they fell out over time with us.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
So actually we will be connecting those outcomes to that
exact quiz you're you're mentioning here in the next month
or so. That quiz is for anyone that doesn't know
where to start, I would say, and and I'll say,
it's not a some magical ho stella quiz. These are
kind of developed instruments p C, L, GAD pH Q
(29:36):
that are that are kind of well recognized to help
people better understand their own symptoms or at least clinicians
understand how how their patients may be feeling. So again,
nothing proprietary there, It's just it's an ability for for
folks to answer some questions and and kind of receive
confidentially a stop very short to calling it any diagnosis,
(30:01):
but how they quiz may place them into mild, moderate,
or severe criteria across depression, anxiety, and and PTSD.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Awesome, Okay, we'll have that linked up here at the
show notes page at the Trauma Therapist podcast dot com Michael,
awesome man. Thank you so much for taking the time
to be here and again super inspiring. I appreciate that
you have all right man, We'll be in touch day
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.