July 31, 2025 • 29 mins
Dr. Nick Brüss, EdD, LMFT, is a leading expert in psychedelic-assisted therapy and a licensed therapist. He serves as a clinical researcher and supervisor on the FDA phase III MAPS trial using MDMA for PTSD and is the lead therapist on Compass Pathways’ psilocybin trial for treatment-resistant depression. A specialist in Internal Family Systems therapy, Dr. Brüss has shared his work at UCLA and Yale. He’s also a certified mindfulness facilitator and Compassion Cultivation teacher, blending science, compassion, and innovation in healing.
In This Episode
You can learn more about what I do here:
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The Trauma Therapist Podcast: I interview thought-leaders in the fields of trauma, mindfulness, addiction and yoga such as Peter Levine, Pat Ogden, Bessel van der Kolk and Bruce Perry. https://bit.ly/3VRNy8z
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In This Episode
You can learn more about what I do here:
The Trauma Therapist Newsletter: celebrates the people and voices in the mental health profession. And it's free! Check it out here: https://bit.ly/4jGBeSa
The Trauma Therapist Podcast: I interview thought-leaders in the fields of trauma, mindfulness, addiction and yoga such as Peter Levine, Pat Ogden, Bessel van der Kolk and Bruce Perry. https://bit.ly/3VRNy8z
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-trauma-therapist--5739761/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Trauma Thepist podcast. My name is Ga Macpherson.
I interview incredible people who dedicated their lives to helping
those who've been impacted by trauma. Here we go, So
five four, three, two and one, our folks, welcome back.
Very excited finally to talk to my guests. Doctor Nick Bruce, Nick, welcome.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Thank you guy, thanks for having me all right.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
So, Nick is the leading expert in psychedelic assistem therapy
and a licensed therapist. He serves as a clinical researcher
and supervisor on the FDA Phase three MAPS trial using
MDMA for PTSD and as a lead therapist on Compass
Pathways psilocybin trial for treatment resistant depression. A specialist in
internal family systems therapy, Doctor Bruce has shared his work
(00:48):
at UCLA and Yale. He's also a certified mindfulness facilitator
and compassion cultivation teacher, blending science, compassion and innovation and healing. Nick,
welcome to the podcast. Before we go and share with
the listeners where you're from originally and where you are currently.
Sure thing.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Originally from a small town in the Midwest called Belleville, Illinois.
Outside it's in southern Illinois, but it's outside of Saint Louis.
So we grew up there and then moved west in
southern California, Los Angeles, Santa Monica. Currently.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Okay, all right, so let's get right into it. How
does this story start for you?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
How it starts for me is disconnection mid or early
twenties in a pursuit of I'm trying to think of
what it would be at that time, but it was like, Okay,
I'm supposed to like make a bunch of money and
I'm supposed to like build a lot of things. And
(01:52):
that took me to Hawaii with a friend in a
boat building company. Actually didn't know much boats, but thought
this was an opportunity, and so we started building boats.
And it was during that time that I had kind
of a quarter life existential crisis, like what is really
going on? From there, I went into a study of philosophy,
(02:17):
and through my own reading of different philosophies, I came
across Buddhist philosophy, which is basically a psychology. Deepening in
that psychology like wow, this is where it's at. This
is a study of humanness and human beings relating. So
I poured into that ended up at grad school at
(02:38):
the California Institute of Integral Studies and really got curious
and interested about what it's like being a human along
the developed or built upon a mindfulness practice that definitely
plays into the work I'm doing now. And then psychedelics
came later, given that I was an athlete in high
(03:03):
school and in college, and so drugs this was this
bad thing and it might have kept me off the field.
So I wasn't going to mess with those things. And
of course the stigma of this is your brain on drugs,
and it's kind of like for crazy people, or it
makes people go crazy. So I kind of heard the
stigma and was nowhere going nowhere near psychedelic medicine early on.
(03:29):
It wasn't until in grad school I heard about some
of the benefits and then some trusted friends telling me
about their experiences, and then I saw firsthand through them
the power and impact of how these medicines can really
help therapeutically. So I kind of came to this medicine,
(03:52):
to the potential of psychedelic medicine during grad school.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
When you were in grad school, what was the kind
of tipping point where you thought I guess talk more
about how you're entree into psychedelics, because it was interesting
when you said, you know, you didn't want to get
(04:19):
anywhere near drugs. You know, that's kind of where I've
I've come in. Well, maybe we'll talk about that a
little bit later. But how did you get from you know,
the existential crisis to well Buddhism and then psychedelics. What
was that tipping point in the sense.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Yeah, the tipping point kind of was homegrown, really a
deeper dive with the support of mindfulness meditation to notice
what's actually going on. Like very jumping back now, very
young kind of looking. I remember looking around and seeing
adults and other people, like everybody seems to just be
(05:00):
like kind of going with this thing of being alive.
I wouldn't have said consciousness back then, but they're just like, Okay,
this is just we're humans and we're here and we're
doing this thing that on some level always fascinated me.
And as I as an adult young adults, started to
turn towards what's actually going on in this experience. I
started to relate to my body and my mind differently,
(05:24):
just with more curiosity, not just taking it as this
is just how it is. So I started, you know,
from a basic mindfulness practice of learning to relate to
thoughts as thoughts, sensations as sensations, and emotions as emotions.
And that was really kind of the foundation. And I
feel very fortunate to have that as a foundation and
(05:46):
then learn about psychedelics because these medicines can be rocket
fuel for consciousness exploration and also healing. So I had
a foundation and kind of learning about the landscapes of
my human experience, about my mind, about my body through meditation,
(06:08):
and then later on adding these kind of amplifiers. So
what was the kind of tipping point is when people
that weren't trying to sell me anything or try to
get me, weren't saying something's wrong with me or even
wrong with them, and that they have to do something
to kind of become something different that they had had
(06:30):
experiences held in a certain way. And this is key,
and this is why I'm really glad we're talking and
I'm excited to I feel drawn to let people know
that the container and integration is such a big part
of working with these medicines. When my friends, some friends
would tell me about their experience and what they learned
(06:53):
about themselves and then how that was kind of showing
up in their daily life. I was like, ooh, that
is so very different than what I learned about, you know,
an egg frying in a pan, and you're you're going
to be you know, left up after that.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
What was your first experience?
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Very fortunate? Actually, I'll name two first experiences. The first
psychedelic experience that I had, there was no medicine involved,
there was no substance involved. It was on a long
meditation retreat. It was at the Insite Meditation Society in
Western Massachusetts. It was a three month meditation retreat all day,
(07:40):
you know, fourteen plus hours a day, sitting and walking,
being present with whatever is arising, developed great concentration or
in a stretch, and then at some point some resistance
came in or something started to clench and resist the
experience of this openness that was already happening. And then
(08:01):
after that my mind. So one day on this meditation,
long meditation retreat, my mind opened in a way that
mimics were similar to the psychedelic experiences that I've had
with medicine much later. So during this retreat, my mind
I had this kind of psychedelic experience. I appreciate having
(08:24):
already as I mentioned earlier, at a foundation and noticing
aspects of experiences arising and passing. So at the end
of that experience, which maybe was a couple hours, fear
snuck in and I'm like.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
Oh no, this is bad.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
I'm now going to either be a crazy person or
I'm not going to be able to relate to people.
So then I got to witness fear arise. And then
I went to sleep that night on the meditation retreat,
hoping praying that this went away, and it did. In
that I woke up and I kind of was back
to an ordinary state, though shift something changed and it
(09:05):
broadened my worldview, my mindset that wow, there's more here
than I once thought. So that's the first experience with
a psychedelic experience without medicine. I so appreciate a friend
in grad school who had been studying psychedelics for a
(09:25):
while and was in therapy grad school, and he gifted
me a psychedelic assisted session that mimicked the MAPS protocol.
So MAPS is the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies or
a nonprofit that for the last several decades have been
(09:48):
leading the push to make psychedelic medicines available for therapy
and even to go further to be you know, or
insurance companies to provide funding to make this possible by
making it legal. So you provided the space, the medicine,
(10:12):
and also the container, which I'm sure we'll talk about,
included preparation, actual experience, and then the integration. So I
had a very loving and warm and safe entry into
working with these medicines. And I put that kind of
next to I mean dozens, if not one hundred experiences
(10:37):
that I've heard of other people whose first exposure or
experience with psychedelic medicine was took LSD. Didn't know how much.
I was out at a concert and I ended up,
you know, hugging a subwolf for the rest of the night,
crying scare for the next several months.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
Right, that's a very vivid picture what that first or
second experience of yours. What medicine are we talking about.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
I'm talking about mdm A, okay, and I have come
to know that as a in some ways a gentle
entry to psychedelic medicines. So mdm A for your listeners,
it's not a classic psychedelic medicine meaning LSD, psilocybin, mescline.
(11:32):
Those are kind of the classics. And what's different about
it is MDMA doesn't tend to kind of add visuals
to your field. It can alter your visual field. But
what MDMA really does is it turns down the fear
in one system and neurocircuitry in their brain, and then
(11:53):
with that it then opens up trust.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
So I felt.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
I had a very loving experience and then being informed
by internal family systems, I was able to meet with
these different parts of myself with more openness, more compassion
just flowed more than without.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Wow. Okay, I'm a just reminder one. I'm speaking with
doctor Nick Bruce here. So you started to have these experiences,
what did you do with them? What we were thinking?
Were you a therapist at this time? Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
I actually started as a para professional before grad school,
seeing clients way back in two thousand and seven, And
when I had this experience, I was like, wow, one
of and it's probably one of the most uttered phrases
(12:58):
when people are doing psychedelics and a safe container. For
the first time, I said, I can't believe this is illegal.
The reminder to your listeners, like most psychedelic medicines. All,
nearly all psychedelic medicines are currently illegal in the United
States at a federal level. So my experience of of
(13:22):
it was very loving, it was very healing, it was
very positive. And while the medicine wears off, and again,
this is what I feel like, given my experience and
kind of how I orient it is, the message I
really want to come through is the medicine is great.
It's very helpful, specifically when held in a safe container,
(13:46):
meaning it's in a relationship. There's preparation, there's thoughtfulness and
care and safety provided during we'll call that navigation, and
then they're absolutely plan and engagement with integration. We'll talk
more of that, I'm sure, but that when this is,
(14:07):
when it's held like this, this can be really profound
catalyst for healing. I'm holding psychedelic medicines as catalysts. They're
not a magic bullet. They're not you're not gonna you're
likely not going to have an experience, and then bah llah,
I'm all better that way I've been relating in romantic
(14:29):
or or in business. It's not just gonna be dissolved,
but you're gonna be able to see more clearly, You're
you're likely going to be inspired to look further into Oh,
what are these parts of me that kind of respond
in this very rigid or very chaotic kind of way.
We're gonna it's gonna stoke some curiosity. So medicines can
(14:53):
be catalysts for our healing, but we need to take
the reins in that, and I hope therapists or really
support people in taking the reins and have integration ongoing
much longer after the medicine wears off.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
So do you offer trainings for these do you offer
trainings for therapists in general, people in general? Or how
are you in? What capacity are you utilizing these medicines?
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Yeah, so currently it's in private practice and work with people.
And even that has shifted from the regular kind of
model of general therapy meeting I know your therapists or
have been and meeting week to week kind of open
ended I found, and I get the feedback from clients
that having a container of three months, so that we
(15:45):
had a beginning, middle, and end and let's go for
the roots of what you're here to discover and uncover,
and let's also build the practices and habits that support
you long after our three months or so together. So
that's kind of the focus of a lot of work.
(16:06):
I also do a lot of training with different training
organizations or trained clinicians and physicians, mostly to work with
Ketemy because that's what's legal right now. And I teach
a lot at the intersection of psychedelics and internal family systems.
This model that works is very synergistic. And then one
(16:30):
other piece I'm I'm also writing a book with Harper
Collins which demystifies the psychedelic assisted therapy experience.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
And my main.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
The kind of subtitle has in it with or without
psychedelic medicine. So psychedelics again can be a great catalyst.
Nobody needs them. They can be helpful. But what we
take away and how we integrate it into our life,
that's the real shift in transformation of durable healing.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
There is out there the thought in our culture, the thought,
the idea that, yes, you know this experience where these
psychedelics can be helpful, and yet oftentimes there's a thought
that they're difficult to drive to direct. They're kind of okay,
(17:38):
it's going to go in this way or is it
going to go in that? We don't know is that
a correct assumption. Is there validity to that?
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Absolutely? I think that's a very important piece, and it
comes up in preparation that we're essentially one building a
relationship as support before, during, and after a psychedelic experience,
and that during the psychedelic experience, it in one sense
(18:09):
lets you reminds you you're not in control, because yes,
medicines can show or while on a medicine, it can
show you unconscious material that maybe was not part of
your intention, like oh, I'm here to work on making
more money, and yet I see a childhood experience that
(18:30):
really needs my attention right right. So it's really part
of the preparation that we do connect with an intention,
but then we hold it with an open hand and
we listen to what arises and we get reps and
actually practice in meeting. Okay, can I open to can
I be with what's arising? And then one other piece,
(18:54):
and it's why I'm so passionate about having safe settings,
which include a skilled a guide guide not so stoked
on the word guide, because it's like, well, if I'm
walking with a guide, I want the guide to know
exactly where we need to go, you know, I don't
want them to know where we need to end up.
(19:15):
But the reality is is the client knows, and so
I might support or the therapist is a support to
help the client connect with where they need to go
and that knowing is inside. Obviously, it's very safe and
supportive to have a hand literal I'm talking physically, a
(19:35):
hand to hold to remind them that her body is
right here and it's safe. It might be a reminder, hey,
let's take a big breath, and that can kind of,
you know, our minds or psyches apart, can kind of
grip down on a thought or an idea, and one
breath can shift the focus back to this energy that
(19:57):
is our body that is always moving.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
So what you're saying now, are you talking about are
you describing the experience with all medicine or just MDM
A thank you.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
So I work with a number of medicines and ketamine,
which is prescribed by a clinician as part I'm sorry,
by a psychiatrist a physician m d m A, which
has been part of the research study, and also psilocybin,
(20:31):
which is part of the research study. But I also
licensed licensed in a number of states, including Colorado, where
it's it's legal to work with psilocybmin. So these medicines
are a bit different, and they also there's a number
of differences. Shall I describe some of those.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Let's take take take a couple of those.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Yeah, okay, and so m d M A as as
we were talking talking about it. One the experience tends
to last. The medicine comes on and it lasts for
about four to six hours. So this MDMA is a medicine.
It's been around for over one hundred years. You take
(21:17):
it as in the form of a pill and it
turns again, turns down the activity in the amygdala, the
kind of fear center of the brain. So when that
gets turned down, trust gets turned up, and it provides
this space neurochemically and in the room with a trusted
(21:38):
guide guide with a trusted therapist to turn towards potentially
traumatic or just uncomfortable material. So parts of your life
that maybe it were somewhat traumatic or there was neglect,
and you're able to meet with these parts that have
had this experience with more openness, we're now or less
(22:01):
prone to kind of eject into the ways we normally
avoid those challenging feelings. So the medicine MDMA can support,
and that's what it was studied for for severe actually PTSD.
I can talk more about the study. So Ketamine is
a molecule created in a lab. It's generally an anesthetic,
(22:26):
so it's used in every hospital around the world. Every
ambulance you see has it in it. It has a
very safe it has a great safety profile. By that
I mean compared to like morphine, which if you give
somebody morphine, you need to really monitor their cardiac, ac
and respiratory systems. Ketamine is softer and safeter in that
(22:49):
you don't need to monitor so closely. And when we're
talking about the therapeutic use, we're talking sub anesthetic, So
you don't take ket and then you're just you're in
like a complete dream land the entire time and you
don't remember anything. You're not in nethlos tizes, but rather
there's an alteration and it can create a little bit
(23:11):
of space. One example is a client first time working
with ketamine and again sub anesthetic dose. Twenty or so
minutes in, they're like, oh, this is what my body
is like without pain. Wow, They're dealing with so much
pain they forgot what their body feels like without just pain,
(23:32):
pain pain, and then that opened the door to work
with you know, their relationship with pain, relationship with their body,
and relationship with the things that they were coming to
therapy for.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Wow. Wow, this you know, listening to talk, it's very
exciting to me. It's also very scary to meta. Before
we started, you know, you asked me, can we talk
about your experience? And I was like, or lack thereof,
I'm excited, I'm scared period. Yes, are you?
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Are you down to share a little bit more about
that a little bit?
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Yeah, it's been kind of wind down here. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
it's it. I kind of on the continuum of like,
you know, depression or anxiety. I'm further on the anxiousness scale.
I don't like my, my, my. You know, drug experience
(24:37):
has been very limited in my life. I had a
very bad experience with pot that must have been laced.
That freaked me the hell out when I was in college.
So that that gives you a little background. Uh, you know,
the loss of control is big.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
Yeah, it's big.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
It's big. It's big.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
And check this out. So the medicines, in of themselves,
they're not gonna have a particular outcome. But if we
partner with these medicines in a safe or safe enough container,
and for you, in the bazillions of people that kind
(25:20):
of go or more tilted towards anxiety than depression. My desire,
my hope, is that people will include those parts. So again,
as far as internal family systems and for your listeners,
it's just we're all made up of different parts. It's
(25:40):
the natural state of the psyche, and that some parts
of us run really anxious, and that we can actually
include those so we don't blast through them, we don't
numb them out, make them go to sleep, but rather, hello, anxiety,
let's actually be in a dialogue and a relationship with it.
And I'm talking before the medicine. So when I'm working
(26:03):
with someone and we're preparing, I'm asking you kind of
these same questions, like what are the concerns, and then
they might go I have no concerns at longer.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
Let me just say something. I've interviewed many people on
this topic, and you have an incredible way of not
only articulating the specifics of psychedelics and how it's utilized,
but you truly do have this sense, this presence about you.
(26:37):
That is very calming and assuring. It's awesome. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
I'm immediately turned to and I have flashes of teachers
and therapists that I've worked with. It's maybe hard earned
in that I've I turned towards my fear.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Allah. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, yeah, we're gonna have to
have you back. We're going to have to have you
back that. There's a lot more to talk about, but
uh yeah wow. All right, So listeners here, therapists of
all kinds, uh, people in the mental health space, what
(27:26):
do you want them to know about what you do?
Speaker 2 (27:28):
Yeah? I guess less about thank you for the for
the for the prompt and less about what I do,
but what you what they can do as they which
is essentially encourage curiosity around this subject, like whatever you
grew up with, Trust me, there is more research that
(27:50):
will soothe those certain parts of you. And then ah,
there's more information coming out about kind of what I
said about my friends, some friends early on describing their
experience of working with a medicine and then how it's
impacted their life. So my encouragement is for everyone to
(28:10):
stay open to the safe ethical use of psychedelic medicines.
They are not a panacea. They're not a silver bullet.
They're not going to solve everything so that we can
partner with them and we can accelerate or or or
create more access to greater healing.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Awesome, Nick, how do people contact you and find out
what you're doing?
Speaker 2 (28:40):
Yeah, I'm having fun putting some things out on Instagram,
Doctor Dr Nick Bruce b r u s S on Instagram.
My website is a practice offreedom dot com. Okay, and
I would be stoked to come back and talk more
(29:01):
specifically about the book, because again, the book is really
about with or without psychedelics, what are the practices we
can be inspired and encouraged to take into our daily
life to basically make integration a daily practice.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
Awesome. Okay, we'll have your site linked up here at
the show notes page at the Trauma theverspodcast dot com. Nick,
thank you so much. We'll be in touch.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
Guy, so welcome.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
Thank you all right, man, take care
Welcome to the Trauma Thepist podcast. My name is Ga Macpherson.
I interview incredible people who dedicated their lives to helping
those who've been impacted by trauma. Here we go, So
five four, three, two and one, our folks, welcome back.
Very excited finally to talk to my guests. Doctor Nick Bruce, Nick, welcome.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Thank you guy, thanks for having me all right.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
So, Nick is the leading expert in psychedelic assistem therapy
and a licensed therapist. He serves as a clinical researcher
and supervisor on the FDA Phase three MAPS trial using
MDMA for PTSD and as a lead therapist on Compass
Pathways psilocybin trial for treatment resistant depression. A specialist in
internal family systems therapy, Doctor Bruce has shared his work
(00:48):
at UCLA and Yale. He's also a certified mindfulness facilitator
and compassion cultivation teacher, blending science, compassion and innovation and healing. Nick,
welcome to the podcast. Before we go and share with
the listeners where you're from originally and where you are currently.
Sure thing.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Originally from a small town in the Midwest called Belleville, Illinois.
Outside it's in southern Illinois, but it's outside of Saint Louis.
So we grew up there and then moved west in
southern California, Los Angeles, Santa Monica. Currently.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Okay, all right, so let's get right into it. How
does this story start for you?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
How it starts for me is disconnection mid or early
twenties in a pursuit of I'm trying to think of
what it would be at that time, but it was like, Okay,
I'm supposed to like make a bunch of money and
I'm supposed to like build a lot of things. And
(01:52):
that took me to Hawaii with a friend in a
boat building company. Actually didn't know much boats, but thought
this was an opportunity, and so we started building boats.
And it was during that time that I had kind
of a quarter life existential crisis, like what is really
going on? From there, I went into a study of philosophy,
(02:17):
and through my own reading of different philosophies, I came
across Buddhist philosophy, which is basically a psychology. Deepening in
that psychology like wow, this is where it's at. This
is a study of humanness and human beings relating. So
I poured into that ended up at grad school at
(02:38):
the California Institute of Integral Studies and really got curious
and interested about what it's like being a human along
the developed or built upon a mindfulness practice that definitely
plays into the work I'm doing now. And then psychedelics
came later, given that I was an athlete in high
(03:03):
school and in college, and so drugs this was this
bad thing and it might have kept me off the field.
So I wasn't going to mess with those things. And
of course the stigma of this is your brain on drugs,
and it's kind of like for crazy people, or it
makes people go crazy. So I kind of heard the
stigma and was nowhere going nowhere near psychedelic medicine early on.
(03:29):
It wasn't until in grad school I heard about some
of the benefits and then some trusted friends telling me
about their experiences, and then I saw firsthand through them
the power and impact of how these medicines can really
help therapeutically. So I kind of came to this medicine,
(03:52):
to the potential of psychedelic medicine during grad school.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
When you were in grad school, what was the kind
of tipping point where you thought I guess talk more
about how you're entree into psychedelics, because it was interesting
when you said, you know, you didn't want to get
(04:19):
anywhere near drugs. You know, that's kind of where I've
I've come in. Well, maybe we'll talk about that a
little bit later. But how did you get from you know,
the existential crisis to well Buddhism and then psychedelics. What
was that tipping point in the sense.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Yeah, the tipping point kind of was homegrown, really a
deeper dive with the support of mindfulness meditation to notice
what's actually going on. Like very jumping back now, very
young kind of looking. I remember looking around and seeing
adults and other people, like everybody seems to just be
(05:00):
like kind of going with this thing of being alive.
I wouldn't have said consciousness back then, but they're just like, Okay,
this is just we're humans and we're here and we're
doing this thing that on some level always fascinated me.
And as I as an adult young adults, started to
turn towards what's actually going on in this experience. I
started to relate to my body and my mind differently,
(05:24):
just with more curiosity, not just taking it as this
is just how it is. So I started, you know,
from a basic mindfulness practice of learning to relate to
thoughts as thoughts, sensations as sensations, and emotions as emotions.
And that was really kind of the foundation. And I
feel very fortunate to have that as a foundation and
(05:46):
then learn about psychedelics because these medicines can be rocket
fuel for consciousness exploration and also healing. So I had
a foundation and kind of learning about the landscapes of
my human experience, about my mind, about my body through meditation,
(06:08):
and then later on adding these kind of amplifiers. So
what was the kind of tipping point is when people
that weren't trying to sell me anything or try to
get me, weren't saying something's wrong with me or even
wrong with them, and that they have to do something
to kind of become something different that they had had
(06:30):
experiences held in a certain way. And this is key,
and this is why I'm really glad we're talking and
I'm excited to I feel drawn to let people know
that the container and integration is such a big part
of working with these medicines. When my friends, some friends
would tell me about their experience and what they learned
(06:53):
about themselves and then how that was kind of showing
up in their daily life. I was like, ooh, that
is so very different than what I learned about, you know,
an egg frying in a pan, and you're you're going
to be you know, left up after that.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
What was your first experience?
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Very fortunate? Actually, I'll name two first experiences. The first
psychedelic experience that I had, there was no medicine involved,
there was no substance involved. It was on a long
meditation retreat. It was at the Insite Meditation Society in
Western Massachusetts. It was a three month meditation retreat all day,
(07:40):
you know, fourteen plus hours a day, sitting and walking,
being present with whatever is arising, developed great concentration or
in a stretch, and then at some point some resistance
came in or something started to clench and resist the
experience of this openness that was already happening. And then
(08:01):
after that my mind. So one day on this meditation,
long meditation retreat, my mind opened in a way that
mimics were similar to the psychedelic experiences that I've had
with medicine much later. So during this retreat, my mind
I had this kind of psychedelic experience. I appreciate having
(08:24):
already as I mentioned earlier, at a foundation and noticing
aspects of experiences arising and passing. So at the end
of that experience, which maybe was a couple hours, fear
snuck in and I'm like.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
Oh no, this is bad.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
I'm now going to either be a crazy person or
I'm not going to be able to relate to people.
So then I got to witness fear arise. And then
I went to sleep that night on the meditation retreat,
hoping praying that this went away, and it did. In
that I woke up and I kind of was back
to an ordinary state, though shift something changed and it
(09:05):
broadened my worldview, my mindset that wow, there's more here
than I once thought. So that's the first experience with
a psychedelic experience without medicine. I so appreciate a friend
in grad school who had been studying psychedelics for a
(09:25):
while and was in therapy grad school, and he gifted
me a psychedelic assisted session that mimicked the MAPS protocol.
So MAPS is the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies or
a nonprofit that for the last several decades have been
(09:48):
leading the push to make psychedelic medicines available for therapy
and even to go further to be you know, or
insurance companies to provide funding to make this possible by
making it legal. So you provided the space, the medicine,
(10:12):
and also the container, which I'm sure we'll talk about,
included preparation, actual experience, and then the integration. So I
had a very loving and warm and safe entry into
working with these medicines. And I put that kind of
next to I mean dozens, if not one hundred experiences
(10:37):
that I've heard of other people whose first exposure or
experience with psychedelic medicine was took LSD. Didn't know how much.
I was out at a concert and I ended up,
you know, hugging a subwolf for the rest of the night,
crying scare for the next several months.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
Right, that's a very vivid picture what that first or
second experience of yours. What medicine are we talking about.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
I'm talking about mdm A, okay, and I have come
to know that as a in some ways a gentle
entry to psychedelic medicines. So mdm A for your listeners,
it's not a classic psychedelic medicine meaning LSD, psilocybin, mescline.
(11:32):
Those are kind of the classics. And what's different about
it is MDMA doesn't tend to kind of add visuals
to your field. It can alter your visual field. But
what MDMA really does is it turns down the fear
in one system and neurocircuitry in their brain, and then
(11:53):
with that it then opens up trust.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
So I felt.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
I had a very loving experience and then being informed
by internal family systems, I was able to meet with
these different parts of myself with more openness, more compassion
just flowed more than without.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Wow. Okay, I'm a just reminder one. I'm speaking with
doctor Nick Bruce here. So you started to have these experiences,
what did you do with them? What we were thinking?
Were you a therapist at this time? Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
I actually started as a para professional before grad school,
seeing clients way back in two thousand and seven, And
when I had this experience, I was like, wow, one
of and it's probably one of the most uttered phrases
(12:58):
when people are doing psychedelics and a safe container. For
the first time, I said, I can't believe this is illegal.
The reminder to your listeners, like most psychedelic medicines. All,
nearly all psychedelic medicines are currently illegal in the United
States at a federal level. So my experience of of
(13:22):
it was very loving, it was very healing, it was
very positive. And while the medicine wears off, and again,
this is what I feel like, given my experience and
kind of how I orient it is, the message I
really want to come through is the medicine is great.
It's very helpful, specifically when held in a safe container,
(13:46):
meaning it's in a relationship. There's preparation, there's thoughtfulness and
care and safety provided during we'll call that navigation, and
then they're absolutely plan and engagement with integration. We'll talk
more of that, I'm sure, but that when this is,
(14:07):
when it's held like this, this can be really profound
catalyst for healing. I'm holding psychedelic medicines as catalysts. They're
not a magic bullet. They're not you're not gonna you're
likely not going to have an experience, and then bah llah,
I'm all better that way I've been relating in romantic
(14:29):
or or in business. It's not just gonna be dissolved,
but you're gonna be able to see more clearly, You're
you're likely going to be inspired to look further into Oh,
what are these parts of me that kind of respond
in this very rigid or very chaotic kind of way.
We're gonna it's gonna stoke some curiosity. So medicines can
(14:53):
be catalysts for our healing, but we need to take
the reins in that, and I hope therapists or really
support people in taking the reins and have integration ongoing
much longer after the medicine wears off.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
So do you offer trainings for these do you offer
trainings for therapists in general, people in general? Or how
are you in? What capacity are you utilizing these medicines?
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Yeah, so currently it's in private practice and work with people.
And even that has shifted from the regular kind of
model of general therapy meeting I know your therapists or
have been and meeting week to week kind of open
ended I found, and I get the feedback from clients
that having a container of three months, so that we
(15:45):
had a beginning, middle, and end and let's go for
the roots of what you're here to discover and uncover,
and let's also build the practices and habits that support
you long after our three months or so together. So
that's kind of the focus of a lot of work.
(16:06):
I also do a lot of training with different training
organizations or trained clinicians and physicians, mostly to work with
Ketemy because that's what's legal right now. And I teach
a lot at the intersection of psychedelics and internal family systems.
This model that works is very synergistic. And then one
(16:30):
other piece I'm I'm also writing a book with Harper
Collins which demystifies the psychedelic assisted therapy experience.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
And my main.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
The kind of subtitle has in it with or without
psychedelic medicine. So psychedelics again can be a great catalyst.
Nobody needs them. They can be helpful. But what we
take away and how we integrate it into our life,
that's the real shift in transformation of durable healing.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
There is out there the thought in our culture, the thought,
the idea that, yes, you know this experience where these
psychedelics can be helpful, and yet oftentimes there's a thought
that they're difficult to drive to direct. They're kind of okay,
(17:38):
it's going to go in this way or is it
going to go in that? We don't know is that
a correct assumption. Is there validity to that?
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Absolutely? I think that's a very important piece, and it
comes up in preparation that we're essentially one building a
relationship as support before, during, and after a psychedelic experience,
and that during the psychedelic experience, it in one sense
(18:09):
lets you reminds you you're not in control, because yes,
medicines can show or while on a medicine, it can
show you unconscious material that maybe was not part of
your intention, like oh, I'm here to work on making
more money, and yet I see a childhood experience that
(18:30):
really needs my attention right right. So it's really part
of the preparation that we do connect with an intention,
but then we hold it with an open hand and
we listen to what arises and we get reps and
actually practice in meeting. Okay, can I open to can
I be with what's arising? And then one other piece,
(18:54):
and it's why I'm so passionate about having safe settings,
which include a skilled a guide guide not so stoked
on the word guide, because it's like, well, if I'm
walking with a guide, I want the guide to know
exactly where we need to go, you know, I don't
want them to know where we need to end up.
(19:15):
But the reality is is the client knows, and so
I might support or the therapist is a support to
help the client connect with where they need to go
and that knowing is inside. Obviously, it's very safe and
supportive to have a hand literal I'm talking physically, a
(19:35):
hand to hold to remind them that her body is
right here and it's safe. It might be a reminder, hey,
let's take a big breath, and that can kind of,
you know, our minds or psyches apart, can kind of
grip down on a thought or an idea, and one
breath can shift the focus back to this energy that
(19:57):
is our body that is always moving.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
So what you're saying now, are you talking about are
you describing the experience with all medicine or just MDM
A thank you.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
So I work with a number of medicines and ketamine,
which is prescribed by a clinician as part I'm sorry,
by a psychiatrist a physician m d m A, which
has been part of the research study, and also psilocybin,
(20:31):
which is part of the research study. But I also
licensed licensed in a number of states, including Colorado, where
it's it's legal to work with psilocybmin. So these medicines
are a bit different, and they also there's a number
of differences. Shall I describe some of those.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Let's take take take a couple of those.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Yeah, okay, and so m d M A as as
we were talking talking about it. One the experience tends
to last. The medicine comes on and it lasts for
about four to six hours. So this MDMA is a medicine.
It's been around for over one hundred years. You take
(21:17):
it as in the form of a pill and it
turns again, turns down the activity in the amygdala, the
kind of fear center of the brain. So when that
gets turned down, trust gets turned up, and it provides
this space neurochemically and in the room with a trusted
(21:38):
guide guide with a trusted therapist to turn towards potentially
traumatic or just uncomfortable material. So parts of your life
that maybe it were somewhat traumatic or there was neglect,
and you're able to meet with these parts that have
had this experience with more openness, we're now or less
(22:01):
prone to kind of eject into the ways we normally
avoid those challenging feelings. So the medicine MDMA can support,
and that's what it was studied for for severe actually PTSD.
I can talk more about the study. So Ketamine is
a molecule created in a lab. It's generally an anesthetic,
(22:26):
so it's used in every hospital around the world. Every
ambulance you see has it in it. It has a
very safe it has a great safety profile. By that
I mean compared to like morphine, which if you give
somebody morphine, you need to really monitor their cardiac, ac
and respiratory systems. Ketamine is softer and safeter in that
(22:49):
you don't need to monitor so closely. And when we're
talking about the therapeutic use, we're talking sub anesthetic, So
you don't take ket and then you're just you're in
like a complete dream land the entire time and you
don't remember anything. You're not in nethlos tizes, but rather
there's an alteration and it can create a little bit
(23:11):
of space. One example is a client first time working
with ketamine and again sub anesthetic dose. Twenty or so
minutes in, they're like, oh, this is what my body
is like without pain. Wow, They're dealing with so much
pain they forgot what their body feels like without just pain,
(23:32):
pain pain, and then that opened the door to work
with you know, their relationship with pain, relationship with their body,
and relationship with the things that they were coming to
therapy for.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Wow. Wow, this you know, listening to talk, it's very
exciting to me. It's also very scary to meta. Before
we started, you know, you asked me, can we talk
about your experience? And I was like, or lack thereof,
I'm excited, I'm scared period. Yes, are you?
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Are you down to share a little bit more about
that a little bit?
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Yeah, it's been kind of wind down here. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
it's it. I kind of on the continuum of like,
you know, depression or anxiety. I'm further on the anxiousness scale.
I don't like my, my, my. You know, drug experience
(24:37):
has been very limited in my life. I had a
very bad experience with pot that must have been laced.
That freaked me the hell out when I was in college.
So that that gives you a little background. Uh, you know,
the loss of control is big.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
Yeah, it's big.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
It's big. It's big.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
And check this out. So the medicines, in of themselves,
they're not gonna have a particular outcome. But if we
partner with these medicines in a safe or safe enough container,
and for you, in the bazillions of people that kind
(25:20):
of go or more tilted towards anxiety than depression. My desire,
my hope, is that people will include those parts. So again,
as far as internal family systems and for your listeners,
it's just we're all made up of different parts. It's
(25:40):
the natural state of the psyche, and that some parts
of us run really anxious, and that we can actually
include those so we don't blast through them, we don't
numb them out, make them go to sleep, but rather, hello, anxiety,
let's actually be in a dialogue and a relationship with it.
And I'm talking before the medicine. So when I'm working
(26:03):
with someone and we're preparing, I'm asking you kind of
these same questions, like what are the concerns, and then
they might go I have no concerns at longer.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
Let me just say something. I've interviewed many people on
this topic, and you have an incredible way of not
only articulating the specifics of psychedelics and how it's utilized,
but you truly do have this sense, this presence about you.
(26:37):
That is very calming and assuring. It's awesome. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
I'm immediately turned to and I have flashes of teachers
and therapists that I've worked with. It's maybe hard earned
in that I've I turned towards my fear.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Allah. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, yeah, we're gonna have to
have you back. We're going to have to have you
back that. There's a lot more to talk about, but
uh yeah wow. All right, So listeners here, therapists of
all kinds, uh, people in the mental health space, what
(27:26):
do you want them to know about what you do?
Speaker 2 (27:28):
Yeah? I guess less about thank you for the for
the for the prompt and less about what I do,
but what you what they can do as they which
is essentially encourage curiosity around this subject, like whatever you
grew up with, Trust me, there is more research that
(27:50):
will soothe those certain parts of you. And then ah,
there's more information coming out about kind of what I
said about my friends, some friends early on describing their
experience of working with a medicine and then how it's
impacted their life. So my encouragement is for everyone to
(28:10):
stay open to the safe ethical use of psychedelic medicines.
They are not a panacea. They're not a silver bullet.
They're not going to solve everything so that we can
partner with them and we can accelerate or or or
create more access to greater healing.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Awesome, Nick, how do people contact you and find out
what you're doing?
Speaker 2 (28:40):
Yeah, I'm having fun putting some things out on Instagram,
Doctor Dr Nick Bruce b r u s S on Instagram.
My website is a practice offreedom dot com. Okay, and
I would be stoked to come back and talk more
(29:01):
specifically about the book, because again, the book is really
about with or without psychedelics, what are the practices we
can be inspired and encouraged to take into our daily
life to basically make integration a daily practice.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
Awesome. Okay, we'll have your site linked up here at
the show notes page at the Trauma theverspodcast dot com. Nick,
thank you so much. We'll be in touch.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
Guy, so welcome.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
Thank you all right, man, take care
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