June 19, 2025 • 42 mins
Esther Goldstein LCSW is a psychotherapist and trauma specialist with a private practice in Cedarhurst, in Long Island NY. Esther specializes in treating anxiety, trauma, complex ptsd, and dissociative disorders. Esther provides trauma informed consultation to therapists committed to improving their trauma-informed practice and attachment focused EMDR consultation to therapists attaining hours towards EMDRIA certification.
Elisa is an Emmy Award-winning journalist with over a decade of experience working with Anderson Cooper 360 and Good Morning America. Throughout her career, she has helped hundreds of survivors share their stories with renowned journalists including Diane Sawyer, Robin Roberts, and Anderson Cooper. Deeply committed to trauma healing, Elisa now offers media consulting with a focus on advancing trauma-informed journalism and guiding survivors as they navigate media exposure.
In This Episode
You can learn more about what I do here:
The Trauma Therapist Newsletter: celebrates the people and voices in the mental health profession. And it's free! Check it out here: https://bit.ly/4jGBeSa
The Trauma Therapist Podcast: I interview thought-leaders in the fields of trauma, mindfulness, addiction and yoga such as Peter Levine, Pat Ogden, Bessel van der Kolk and Bruce Perry. https://bit.ly/3VRNy8z
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-trauma-therapist--5739761/support.
Elisa is an Emmy Award-winning journalist with over a decade of experience working with Anderson Cooper 360 and Good Morning America. Throughout her career, she has helped hundreds of survivors share their stories with renowned journalists including Diane Sawyer, Robin Roberts, and Anderson Cooper. Deeply committed to trauma healing, Elisa now offers media consulting with a focus on advancing trauma-informed journalism and guiding survivors as they navigate media exposure.
In This Episode
- Esther’s site: https://integrativepsych.co/
- Elisa’s: https://www.elisatoha.com
You can learn more about what I do here:
The Trauma Therapist Newsletter: celebrates the people and voices in the mental health profession. And it's free! Check it out here: https://bit.ly/4jGBeSa
The Trauma Therapist Podcast: I interview thought-leaders in the fields of trauma, mindfulness, addiction and yoga such as Peter Levine, Pat Ogden, Bessel van der Kolk and Bruce Perry. https://bit.ly/3VRNy8z
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-trauma-therapist--5739761/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the special guest host series of The Trauma
Therapist Podcast, where I'm going to be handing over to
mic to some incredible guest hosts. In each episode, you'll
hear fresh perspectives and unique insights to inform and inspire you,
all the while keeping the heart of this podcast alive.
So sit back and enjoy.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Hey everyone, my name is Esther Goldstein.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
I'm an anxiety therapist and trauma therapist the Long Island,
and I'm so excited to be on here. For those
of you who have heard my past podcast episodes with
Guy Macpherson, I love the work that Guy has done
for the trauma community, for therapists, for bringing heart centered
conversations and humility to this world. So thank you guys
(00:42):
for inviting me as a guest host. I'm so excited
to bring on Alyssa today. Alyssa, I'm not going to
introduce yourself, introduce you. Tell us a little bit about
who you are, some of your journey.
Speaker 4 (00:56):
Yeah, yeah, Hi, thanks so much for having me. Yeah.
I'm a former journalist.
Speaker 5 (01:02):
I worked as a breaking news producer for ABC and
CNN for over a decade, so I my job was,
you know, anytime a story broke, whether it was a kidnapping,
a shooting, a hurricane or tornado, I would jump on
a plane and go to wherever the story was and
in bed, sometimes for days or months at a time
within these communities.
Speaker 4 (01:20):
To try to get an interview.
Speaker 5 (01:23):
And so, yeah, as you can imagine, it really gave
me a front row seat to a lot of large
scale trauma, and it made me want to do more
than just tell these stories. I wanted me to learn
more about how to heal from trauma, which is how
our past crossed. You know, I'm in a group practice
in New York City, but I was in your trauma
(01:43):
group consultation, which was incredible.
Speaker 4 (01:45):
I've learned a lot from you.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Yeah, so could you.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
Tell us right now you are a trauma therapist, and
could you just tell us just for a minute, as
you tell me about being a journalist.
Speaker 5 (01:57):
My specific job was finding interviews for Diansweer or Anderson Cooper,
you know, finding people for them to interview. So sometimes
you know, those interviews would happen right away. Other times
it would take months for people to you know, be
ready to share their story, especially with the more sensitive stories.
Speaker 4 (02:13):
So you know, it was very competitive. We were trying
to get the.
Speaker 5 (02:15):
First interview among the morning shows or among you know,
cable news.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
But yeah, yeah, I'm curious if you can share before
we go into like what it means to be a
trauma therapist and how you've come to this journey, Because
there's professional journeys that propel us towards something or away
from something, and then there's also our own personal sense of.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Meaning fulfillment or direction that we go towards.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
I just do want to first say, like, yeah, Alyssa
reached out to Drum one of our consultation groups. This group,
I mean, right, like there are people around the world
who are just like incredible, like wow, like impact with them.
But Alyssa, can you tell us, like what is it
about the experience of being a journalist that what is
it that you noticed about human beings creatures? Is about
(03:01):
impact of trauma or big events that really impacts the psyche?
Like what did you notice that maybe the rest of
us who haven't been in their role noticed about humankind?
Speaker 4 (03:11):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (03:11):
I mean, to be honest, I feel like the thing
I noticed most was just human resilience, right, Like, I
think it was really really incredible to be able to
watch how resilient people are, even right in the aftermath
of something like unimaginable, and I think journalism what that
taught me is just how powerful the relationship is. Like
(03:33):
you know we learn in grad school, right, the most
important thing is a therapeutic relationship, but like to have
someone be there with you and hold space for you.
Speaker 4 (03:41):
Like across from you, like just is so powerful.
Speaker 5 (03:45):
And then like if you add the sort of idea
that we were their story was reaching millions of people,
like how you heal in community, right, and how like
the idea of like all of these people around the
world hearing your story and like being able to reach
out to you and like, you know, reach towards you
in a time of tragedy. I felt like that was
just incredible. And then I think like then there was
the curiosity of Okay, so like what about that other
(04:07):
percent of.
Speaker 4 (04:08):
People who don't heal or who aren't resilient? Right? Resilient?
Speaker 5 (04:11):
I mean everyone is resilient, but like who still have
trouble like years later, you know, with something how to
be Yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
I think that's really my question because often there's breaking
stories and you'll hear people say like we're going to
be strong. I love that you got to be the
person for some of these people, because right, the whole
concept of mirror neurons and cool regulation is like you're
that voice, compassionate, You're not just a reporter who's wanting
to like dig into their story.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
You're basically saying, like, connect with me, and.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
In this connection we will create, we will support you,
and then obviously in sharing with the world. But yeah,
there's always the questions after, Like when I look at
the world right now or even past events, I often
look at like people who are in this spotlight and
we all have and maybe we could talk about this
in a minute, but like we have different parts of ourselves,
and so although one part might be at an episode,
(05:01):
at an experience, there are other parts present that often
either they do heal or there's enough support or making
sense of the experience, or they might be isolated and
alone and though they were in the spotlight, suddenly there's silence,
or there's confusion, or there's pain. So I'm always curious
about like there's these breaking headlines and then I'm like,
(05:21):
who's coming home with them for dinner?
Speaker 2 (05:23):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (05:23):
Holding them cry? What is happening? So I you know,
I wonder about that.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
I don't know if you're privy to that information or
if you're just more you were more.
Speaker 5 (05:32):
Yeah, well, I mean I always wondered, like what I mean,
and I was lucky I kept in touch with so
many people I booked for stories so many times. I
didn't have that window into what was happening after. But
I mean I think like that. I mean, if I
could go back to school and you're like a PhD,
I would follow up with all of these people right
who've done interviews, because I feel like, overall, I felt
like most of them had a positive experience, especially with Anderson,
(05:55):
like you know, sitting across from him and the way
that we you know, did our stories. I felt very
you know, confident about the work we did.
Speaker 4 (06:03):
But yeah, I think it depends.
Speaker 5 (06:05):
It depends, like you know, as you know in therapy, right,
like every human is different.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
So yeah, so I'm curious, like what happened there that
you were like I'm not staying in journalism, Like what
shifted for you that you decided I want to go
to a different kind of row, a different kind of connection,
not just an interviewing in that kind of way.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
I'm curious if you want to share a.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
Bit about like the professional elements that took you to pause.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Or any other aspects connected to them.
Speaker 5 (06:34):
Yeah, yeah, I was saying that, Like, if you've read
Dan Harris's My more ten percent Happier, we actually worked
at A Morning America at the same time, although we're
passed across that much.
Speaker 4 (06:44):
But his story, you know, like you really get a.
Speaker 5 (06:47):
Feel for sort of the fast paced, like high pressure,
you know, vicarious trauma, and whereas like his journey sort
of like culminates with like drug addiction and an on
are panic attack. Like my story wasn't so dramatic, but
I had the industry was definitely taking a toll on me.
You know, I would get these debilitating migraines that would
take me out for days at a time. I had
(07:08):
really bad back pain. It's probably drinking more than I
should have at the time. And I think, like, you know,
whereas Dan Harris found meditation and Buddhism, I think my
like come to do this moment was finding ifs our
internal family systems, and we you know, talk a lot
in our consultation group about that, but just this idea
of like that we all have parts, right and that
some of our parts that make us really good at
(07:30):
our job. So for me, you know, probably that relentless
drive and like a little bit of like anxiety and
people pleasing, right, like you know, which I see a
lot in a lot of my clients. You know, that
takes a toll when those parts are the only ones
driving the bus so to speak, you know, like other
parts of us. And like clearly like my body was
telling a different story, right, Like it was taking me.
Speaker 3 (07:51):
Out, yeah, emotionally and physically. So wait, so the book
was called just to back up from it such wise
and I want to kind of open each of them slowly.
So what was the author's name again? And then how
soon after he was in that role did he then
write the book?
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Do you want to tell?
Speaker 4 (08:10):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (08:10):
Yeah, well his name is Dan Harris. So he was
he worked, you know, he was on air, which I wasn't.
So it was a very different world but ten percent happier. Yeah,
and he wrote I think he was still working at ABC.
Speaker 4 (08:23):
When he wrote the book.
Speaker 5 (08:25):
But yeah, you know, talked about his journey and you know,
which is again like you know, there were a lot
of parallels and how he found Buddhism and meditation, and
it taught him to like slow down and understand.
Speaker 4 (08:36):
It's very similar, right, there's like a lot of overlaps.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
Yeah, And so I love that you're saying, basically his
book The ten Percent Happier, How basically he's sharing his
story of how maybe externally and I guess and when
as we're having this conversation, essentially like you're talking about
your story. I know on a previous podcast with Guy McPherson,
I shared about building external components of growth or success,
(09:00):
but then also wanting to feel like I'm coming.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Home to my body because sometimes and.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
We'll talk about parts work in a minute, Sometimes we
build external like we could build a castle, but then
it's also like can I live in the castle?
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Can I slow down on the castle? Or am I
just so.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
Good at building right that I forget and my body
actually in mine don't even enjoy it? Right?
Speaker 2 (09:19):
And I think that's like the chapter two.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
Sometimes we're looking at chapter one when we're in survival
or when we're looking to build, which is not a
bad thing, but very few people talk about chapter two.
It looks like and am I not look as sexy
or as shiny or as sophisticated or as noisy, but
it's actually important for longevity, of health and of growth
and actually what success really means. Okay, so your thing
he speaks about panic attacks and turning to addiction, and
(09:46):
so could we talk. So you're saying like in your experience,
even being in this journalism role was high pressuring. You
were overworking, and we spoke about like the work hard,
play hard, right, So and then and then it sounds
like at some when you kind of found your own
right you said, come to Jesus of like I want
to slow down. You found the therapy world and specifically parts.
(10:08):
So for anyone who does or doesn't know parts, could
you talk? And I know, yeah, my consultations always talk
about parts, and we always talk about this, like which
modality so medic ifs cmdr right? And I always say
it's usually a combination. But I think any good healing,
really it is important for us to understand the concept
of parts. So you want to give us just the
basic of like how you understood what is parts? To
(10:29):
anyone who's listening to talk about the overachieving, over successful
drive part and how if we don't pause that then
we end up just falling apart and how we could
help ourselves as professionals but also our clients.
Speaker 4 (10:43):
Yeah yeah, I mean, I mean just even on the bait.
Speaker 5 (10:45):
And there's many different types of parts work, you know,
like IFS is just one of them. But yeah, IFS
has this idea where we all you know, it's almost
like we have an internal family inside of us, which
like resonated so much for me, right, Like I think
instead of you know, being an alcoholic or having anxiety, right,
it's like there's a part of us that drinks and
(11:06):
there's a purpose to that, right, And so I think,
you know, they conceptualize managers, right, like parts that are
sort of like never again, those are the parts that
I talked about, right, like sort of that relentless, like
dry you know, drive, anxiety, like hyper vigilance. You know,
people pleasing these parts that are like you know, basically
protecting younger wounds, which you know again like our parts
(11:28):
that are frozen back in time and you know, holding
a lot of pain and suffering and you know that
can be from big t trauma, can be from small
tea or a family of origin stuff.
Speaker 4 (11:39):
And then we have like our numbing like.
Speaker 5 (11:41):
Firefighters that when they start to feel the pain of
the childhood. The younger parts, they will douse the flames, right,
So that's like the drinking, the binge, eating right, like
eating the things that are like reactive, and they come in.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
To stuff impulsive.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
It's almost like it's almost right. It's almost like impulsive,
like safe sex or working like.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
A very strong degree.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
Usually, if people are developing panic attacks or are stuck
in rage fits, or very disconnected or dissociated, or engaging
in affairs or right things that are basically destructive to
their life, and they're out of touch with their conscious choices,
there's usually a level of like impulsivity, and this these
parts are coming to save the person because it's like
(12:25):
I'm bringing the bell.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
I'm saying I need help.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
You're not listening, so I'm going to go even more
intensely and I don't know any other way to cope.
So we're not saying it's bad, it's just it's a
very desperate attempt to try to help the system. And
I love how you said, like the exiles are like childhood,
are their wounds.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
I think they could even be like emotion.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
Sometimes we're so afraid of failure or we're so afraid
of being alone achieve or like we said, like relentless.
What was the term that you use, like relentless?
Speaker 5 (12:53):
Like I yeah, fuls need to just be better, to
do more right like people, I mean, yeah, I see
it with so many of my clients, right, and they're
so good at their jobs.
Speaker 4 (13:05):
And I think, like.
Speaker 5 (13:06):
That's what esther, I don't know, Like I talk to
my clients all the time about this. Is like in
many ways, like trauma can be you can have sort
of like these superpowers that come from experiencing trauma.
Speaker 4 (13:16):
Right.
Speaker 5 (13:16):
Like there's a lot of good right, Like, there's a
lot of you know, people who are so successful because
of things that have happened in their past. But I
think the question I always ask my clients is like
are you doing this because you want to do it?
Speaker 4 (13:28):
Or are you doing it because you need to? Right?
Speaker 5 (13:30):
So it's like, you know, and I think that's a
good question that points to whether something needs to be healed.
Speaker 3 (13:36):
Yeah, And if we can hang out with that for
just a moment, I think the question of are you
doing this because you want to or are you doing
this because you need to? That question alone gives the
client opportunity to have access to a choice point. When
we go through trauma, or we go through anxiety, or
we're in an environment where we have to be over
be overware or overwork or under perform or quiet ourselves,
(14:02):
there's no choice points, right.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Trauma collapses, time gives us this pressure of just go.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
And when you're talking about right this like hyper drive,
it's almost like the person doesn't hasn't even taken.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
The time to have the ability or to be conscious of.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
Like there's actually a choice point here, and you're essentially
splowing things down and saying do you have to or
do you write?
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Or do you want to?
Speaker 3 (14:26):
And I think there alone is like the magic or
the power of or really healing happens. Like we have
someone in our consultation group who actually lives in.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
A different country, and she's treating a client who is
an athlete. Right, we're talking about like aths.
Speaker 4 (14:45):
That's such a good point, right, And.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
So there's someone who and then there's a few people
who I've like consulted with and on where some people
could be like Michael Phelps, right, like a swimmer who
basically is really hitting these incredible milestones. There are some
people who have been in these huge positions up creativity, leadership, musicians,
people who have built a lot of success, swimming the
(15:09):
English Channel's creating so many different books, and often what
we look at is people land up in our offices
not because they're doing okay, but there's a level of distress.
So when you see that intensity, right, that's kind of
like taking that fight or flight energy, that rush, and
they're channeling into something incredible. Right by the way, I
don't mean that Michael Phelps has a trauma history.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
I'm actually swimmer, but there's an incredible energy.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
And we also know people who have taken their intense
energy to be able to create, to be able to
micro to manage so much right, so many things. But
then what we often see is clients come in because
they feel like they have to.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
Yes, when you have to, you feel.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
Like kind of what you said about driving the bus,
feels like there was a part that's like shoving all
the responsible drivers on the side, taking over, pressing on
the gas at all, and it's like go, and then
you're like wait, you're running things over and it's like
stuff and stuff. I can't stop, I can't stop, and
it's not might even be hitting milestones and it's not
even feeling good.
Speaker 5 (16:05):
Yes, yes, and just like an internal family, just like
a real family. Sorry, just like a real family when
there is one sort of member of the family like
driving the bus and like taking over, right, like there
and does there's no space for the other members of
the family, right, that will have like an impact with children, right,
it will come out and their behaviors. Right, And I
feel like internally we're the same way, right, it comes out.
(16:26):
It's sort of like our clients come to us when
the cracks start showing, right, like.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
Yeah, yeah, So it's almost like when there's so I think,
like the when you speak about this like hyper drive,
to me, that's more like a manager, like the parts
that are trying to manage the system, people who are
very perfectionistic, people who are like there's healthy parts of
trying to manage life, right, and then there is parts
of here, Yeah, you're pretty extreme, right, compulsive. So I
(16:54):
guess I'm wondering, like for you, what was it and
being a journalist me, you think not just like pause,
my body is like overworking. I'm curious what about I
know you said we did a program at Akerman. I
mean just curious what brought.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
You to Yeah, in their family system.
Speaker 5 (17:13):
Yeah, yeah, I mean actually was incredible because my boss
is at CNN let me go back to grad school
while I was working, So so I started studying trauma
like while I was, you know, simultaneously working on all
of these stories.
Speaker 4 (17:26):
But yeah, no, I did.
Speaker 5 (17:27):
I studied family therapy at the Akerman Institute, which I think,
I said, like, almost makes me like a better IFS
therapist because I think, like many times you are working
with these parts that are almost like members of a family,
where like you have to sit them down on the
couch and you're listen. When you finally listen to their stories,
you're realizing, like these parts you think are really different, right,
(17:48):
the part that drinks and then the part that like
criticizes you are actually doing you know, both of them
are doing what they do to keep you safe, to
protect you, right, or like the younger version of you safe.
And I think like when our clients have those like
realizations or those moments, there's a lot more self compassion.
And I think again like goes back to like such
(18:08):
a key part of healing, right, is this ability to
have compassion for yourself and hold space for yourself and
your intern. Right, So I think that beautiful combination, which
is like holding space for someone else and for your
client that I learned sort of like early on in
my journalism career, and then this like taking it one
step forward of like helping your client learn how to
hold space and compassion within themselves. And I think that's
(18:31):
like the real right, Like I don't know, I'm sure
you agree, but right.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
Like that that yeah, it's almost like you're saying, like
learning about a family system, of real family system.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
It's like if one there's always a dynamics. Right.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
I think I just did this this like masterclass on
looking shame, and John Ratchaw actually talks about he was
He talks about the hero child, the attic child, the
silent child. So we all kind of take on roles
and family dynamics, and he talks about like a dysfunctional thing.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
Families.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
There's different roles people take on. But I love what
you're saying is that essentially knowing actually real family therapy
and essentially when when we're suffering or when our clients
are suffering, there's something that's array or a ray inside
of ourselves. That's basically saying I'm not okay instead of
saying okay, so just stop it or change it. It's
like I love what you're saying that you're almost like
(19:22):
coming in as like the journalists, but you're first like
connecting with them, and you're saying, okay, wait, hold on,
who's making the noise the most noise? Right, there's one
part it's almost like you're sitting like with a whole.
It's almost like the clients come in, I'm like, where's
the you know you're here with blink and and I'm like, oh, interesting,
it feels like blah blah blahs here, or it feels
like there's some angry part of you that you tell
(19:43):
me you want to get you want to heal, but
you have so much skepticism all over here.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
So I want to get to.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
Work with a skeptic or ling the anger in here.
So I love how you're saying like one is because
people often say, like, what's the quick work to working
with these behaviors?
Speaker 2 (19:59):
And and I love that what you're saying.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
The first thing always like people say, okay, do in
our child healing work, just say oh you're safe, everything's
fine and awful when people do that, right, like the
client does not feel relief because you're skipping over some
important piece because it's like, let's first connect. Like if
we see a part that's like overworking, it's usually so
(20:21):
frightened or feels this pressure to keep doing what it's doing.
And a lot of times if it had another option
or if it knew that the system or the person
would be okay, if it actually like didn't have to
work so hard, it would let go, or if it
had different kind of support.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
So I love that you're saying, like number one, get
to know this part and connect with it.
Speaker 4 (20:42):
Yeah, right, like just.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
And then be compassionate to well instead of being like
while you're drinking again, it's like, wow, so you're going
back for that fifth bear tonight? Yeah, I wonder what's
going on for you or I'm wondering what, like what's
so unbearable about being in this moment without going for
that bear or going yeah.
Speaker 5 (20:59):
And even like the huge shift of talking to the
again sounds so woo right. And if you had asked
me like ten, yeah, twenty years ago whatever, when I
was a journalist, I'd be like, you've got to be kidding,
you know, like anytime yoga like Medita, I'd be like, oh,
like I could not slow down. So I'm not saying
it's like an easy jump from there to there, but yeah,
(21:19):
like getting curious about the part itself, right, like asking it.
Speaker 4 (21:23):
Yeah, like what you know when.
Speaker 5 (21:24):
You reach for that Like what are you afraid it
would happen if you didn't reach for that drink?
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Right?
Speaker 5 (21:29):
And it's like sort of amazing, Like you know, all
of our clients have those answers. I mean not to
say there aren't parts that are like going to come
in and block or numb them out or dissociate them, right.
I Mean it's not always eat smooth seiling and parts
work either, but yeah, I think like that bringing that
curiosity right.
Speaker 3 (21:47):
So almost like the journalist part of you is almost
like there where you're connecting with them and then you're
almost modeling like how they could connect with our own
inner world because essentially we want our clients to copy
and paste.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
Right it's happening in the therapy room.
Speaker 3 (21:59):
Is really like I want you to be able to
do this in your own inner life and with other people.
Speaker 5 (22:05):
Yeah, yeah, and experientially, I think like you're doing it
in the therapy room, they're they're actually getting the opportunity
to really listen, yeah, to like their own parts.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Yeah. And I'm not going to jump into the like
the blocking and associative parts, but I love that you
said that because if there's anyone listening who's a therapist
or a client, and if you've tried to do parts,
or if you're trying to do fealing and it's a
little getting a little hairy or tricky, there's nothing wrong
with that.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
It just means that your system is very protective or
maybe defended, and then a good and skilled therapist is
going to work with the parts of you that block
or dissociate or are willing yet to. Like what you
said about parts are like do direct access and you
have people might eye them laugh about this, but essentially,
(22:53):
like what we found is it's one of the least
pathologizing ways of just understanding that every part has a
function or every behavior, every thought, every emotion. Sometimes it's
an emotion that somebody's overtaken by and they want to
avoid it, an emotion of shame, an emotion of fear,
and emotion of you know, like anger.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
So people might avoid that in.
Speaker 3 (23:14):
Many different kinds of ways of coping I'm curious Alyssa, Like,
if you just mentioned like looking back ten years ago yourself,
you would kind of laugh.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
And say you're so rude.
Speaker 3 (23:25):
But the other day you shared with me how you're
like the most fulfilled you.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Are in your life right now.
Speaker 3 (23:30):
Yeah, it's okay, I'm like bringing that up. No, Yeah,
And I'm loving that we're having this conversation right now.
And I'm wondering for anyone listening who maybe is a
younger therapist who's on a journey where maybe they are
just noticing that they are coming into this field to
either do their own healing work or they're wondering like
(23:51):
how to be able to create space for their own
self and also be a good therapist. Like what do
you think allowed you from your story of being a
journalist to doing some of the speaker work. What it
allowed you to really feel that whole feeling in your body,
feel that feeling inside.
Speaker 4 (24:08):
Yeah, I mean like working with my own parts.
Speaker 5 (24:10):
I think finding it's like so beautiful when you start
to make space for all of your parts and there's
this sort of integration that happens. And I think my
biggest thing, especially starting as a journalist, was I took
all of my really efficient journalist parts and I just
applied them to therapy. So, I mean, you love learning,
but I would take every single training, you know, I
(24:32):
would get every single consultation I know, and it became
like I was just taking those old parts that were
protecting some wounds, you know, like and I would just
you know, let them drive the bus. And I think
it wasn't until I finally was like, Okay, let's slow
down with these parts that want to be the best
therapist or want to learn you know, like the best training,
you know, like or be so efficient and really help
(24:54):
my clients heal. I think like when I worked with
those parts and they stepped out of the way, that's
when like the real miraculous hilling happens, right, is when
you're letting your own client system guide and with like
sort of the soft touch you bring in skills, right,
but they also know when to get out of your
parts know when to get out of the way, and
they have trust that you know that you.
Speaker 4 (25:16):
Know what you're doing in the room. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (25:19):
Love you're saying.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
I love, love, love what you're saying. It's almost like
I remember in one of my IFS, like I think
it was the second level IFS training, and they were
talking to us about the difference between therapist blood sessions
with our clients or self led sessions and self is
like the core of who we are. And then there's
(25:41):
like parts of therapists who are like I need to
be the healer, I need to be the hero, I
need to be the judge, right, I.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
Need to be the caretaker.
Speaker 3 (25:48):
And as you're talking right now, I'm just thinking like
essentially when.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
We as humans, when we as moms, when we as.
Speaker 3 (25:58):
Lovers, when we ASPI because who we are are like
who we are with the way we do life, is
the way we do love, it's the way we do relationships,
it's everything. It's like the core of who we are
comes across. That's why I always say, like your values,
who you are, You're in it, like right, So I
love how you're saying, like essentially doing your own inner
work instead of taking like the part of you that
(26:18):
was the seeker and the learner and the needing to
be the best for whatever function that served or serves.
It's almost like as you like exhaled and settled into
self energy.
Speaker 5 (26:28):
Yes, that's exactly I can put it so much better
than I could.
Speaker 3 (26:31):
I think you're actually saying it perfectly, and I'm actually
linking all of this up, and and I think that,
like I don't know, just anyone listening, I don't know
if there's ever like a perfect route to get there,
because as you're saying this, like I remember, the part
of me that was like going to get my phdo
(26:51):
was abroad. I went to Hebrew University and one of
the professors you have to get a professor who takes
you on as a mentor and then takes you on
under this piecettlement and they kept I kept interviewing different
mentors or they interviewed me and they said, what do
you want to work with And I said trauma. So
they said, don't get your PhD. I'm like, I want
to be a doctor, like for your work or for
your ego.
Speaker 4 (27:12):
Oh that's so funny.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
Yeah yeah, because they were like, actually, like you should
do POSTCRAD training.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
Yeah, you good trauma work.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
Because I was working with a lot of people struggling
with addiction, and I realized there's behavioral management kind of
what we're mentioning, which, of course you want to help
people become sober, but you know how like.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
What's his name?
Speaker 3 (27:34):
He always talks about how the opposite, like the opposite
of addiction is not sobriety, it's connection, right.
Speaker 4 (27:41):
Yeah, I mean he does.
Speaker 3 (27:42):
Yeah, So it was a matter of like looking at
the parts of them that never felt connection. So anyway,
so then I was like, hey, I'm not going to
do that. I did a postcrad in the end at
Hebrew You but as you're saying this, like I have
also had parts and I still have that part that
sometimes gets woken up and is like ah, and then
I'm like right where it's like I want to grab
(28:04):
this and I want to grab this. Yeah, like more
presence in session or less presence in sessions. I want
to say this to anyone, like it's not that you're
meant to listen to Alyssa and be like I want
to be like Alyssa or how can I be perfectly
self led therapist.
Speaker 4 (28:18):
And I'm not. Yeah, yeah, I think even just like.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Knowing like it's okay.
Speaker 3 (28:24):
The therapists who are wonderful humans and therapists are the
ones who, like you're sharing, you've taken the time to reflect.
I share like like it's okay to have all these
different parts. What we do want to do is be like, okay,
now how do I Yes, we do need skills, we
do need to be able to provide offer.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
I'm healing, but.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
If we're kind of divorcing ourselves, or if we're not
present or integrated, like you said, in our own minds
and bodies, we're not going to be as impactful of
a healing vessel. We're not really going to model that
homeness or that integration that our clients are really needing.
And I just want to bring this back is when
I asked you what allows you to feel so fulfilled
(29:02):
right away? Bingo, you said, well, I feel like I'm
working with my own heart, like a sense of integration, which.
Speaker 5 (29:09):
Yeah, and you know, I like, will be honest, I
think that there is a big element like in journalism,
there was part of me that felt like unfulfilled, like
I wanted I wanted more meaning in my life, you know,
and like you know there which like looking back, I
do think like, wow, you know you still had you
were doing like these big things, reaching big audiences, but
there was like still avoid right and I think now
(29:31):
like being able to work with people every day and
have that connection and truly feel like I'm on this
like collaborative journey to helping them heal. Like there's no
better feeling, like at the end of the day, you know,
to feel like you're making a difference and you're like
connecting in a really genuine, you know, true honest way.
I mean that sounds cheesy, but like I think that's
like why I love my job.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Yeah, I don't think it's cheesy.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
I think like some of us, like we all have
different needs, and I love that you're speaking.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
To the fact like one of the people how much.
Speaker 3 (30:00):
Yeah, she said to me, I'm loving this trauma training
or I'm loving to learn about this, but to be honest,
I feel like this is helping me heal and me
understand my own somatic and symptoms better. And she's like, honestly,
she was in like an educational role and in leadership.
She's like, I want to create like trauma unformed systems
to support like schools and to support like trauma occupational therapy.
(30:23):
So we all have different needs and I love it
for you. You're saying like you want, you appreciate you
were hungering for more of this, like right, being a
therapist is a very intimate experience of very big human emotions.
You have a lot of capacity, Like this is why
I think you're an excellent therapist. No, really, because I
think it's like having the not just like oh, I
want to help heal the world. It's like I'm holding
(30:45):
myself accountable to a real sense of integration or noticing
my own parts, or can tolerate and be with big
realities or be curious about what's going on and then
kind of provide some kind of healing relationship. Obviously, I mean,
you have so many skills with the right kind of
therapeutic interventions. But I think that's really a parallel process
(31:06):
of like, hey, you're checked into like a very meaningful
line of work for.
Speaker 4 (31:09):
You, Yeah, and figuring what that is for you.
Speaker 5 (31:12):
But I think that's such a great example with this
other woman, Right, it looks different for everyone.
Speaker 4 (31:17):
And also like your balance of you know, like yeah,
what you want your work day.
Speaker 5 (31:20):
You know, we were talking about like working in the office
versus being remote. Right, those are all questions I think,
you know, every therapist has to ask themselves.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
Yeah, so I think just to wrap up, like I'm
loving this conversation. I like to talk about parts work
for hours. Mike, do you love what you just said
about like needing to right? Obviously do a check in.
I think the thing that I'm working away with most
from this conversation is one, Oh.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
We didn't talk about this. This is what I do
want to say. I guess as I wrap up, is
like the concept of.
Speaker 3 (31:49):
What it means to be in this place of like
noticing when we have parts of ourselves that might be
overworking or overperforming, and how going through trauma or just revival.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
Or parts of ourselves that learn to function.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
Sometimes we feel like we need to versus we want
to noticing that differentiation looking at just like when you
mentioned like the ten percent happier times or maybe your
own mind, your body as a therapist or with your
clients are starting to speak and the power of listening
in you know, so many times I read these articles around,
(32:23):
like suicide prevention, like here the one eight hundred number,
and suicide prevention is not a one hundred number. Suicide
prevention is understand your anxiety and trauma, get the right
medication for mental health conditions if you need, get the
right support, have a food and shelter right, be able
to make sense of the narrative of your life, or
like you're saying, like figure out. For him, it was
(32:43):
about Buddhism. For you, it was about slowing down and
doing healing work. Like people can walk, can drive themselves
into a grieve, or they can they can get themselves
back up. And I guess I want that hope and
inspiration here. Who's in a very dark spot suicide prevention
or I don't just mean physical suicide, even emotional mental suicide.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
So many people are living detached.
Speaker 3 (33:05):
And healing is a matter of we're becoming alive, is
a matter of really looking at those parts. Yeah, like
the right supports, the right resources, These kinds of podcasts
I think are very rich. So I get them his
last piece and we talk about work hard, play hard.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
It could we just.
Speaker 3 (33:21):
Like open that nut for one second, like what's the
work hard, play hard, and then we'll talk about like
what is that How can we help let's say, a
therapist or people who are working with clients like that.
Speaker 5 (33:31):
Yeah, Well, I mean I think because like I think
it looks different for everyone, Like I think like there
is a healthy way to work hard, play hard. But
I think usually what we see, which I think we
started with, it's like work hard, play hard means like
I'm going to let these manager parts completely drive the
bus for like five days of the week, and then
on Friday, this other part, right that could be a firefighter,
(33:54):
right or a numbing part is like okay, now it's
our turn. And then that's where like the drug addiction
or alcohol or sex or you know, TV or be
you know right like where any of these other things
come in. And it's I mean, you know, like sometimes
it's completely dissociative, right where those parts take you over
so much that you might not remember what you did
over the weekend, right, or like there's a huge physical toll.
(34:18):
So I don't know, I think like that there is
a spectrum. I think like that's the most extreme when
people come to us, right like, and then there's like
I think there is a way to work hard, play
hard where you're like noticing, Okay, like there's a part
that just wants to go dancing with my friends, and
I'm gonna let that part just like you know, I
think like when you have an integrated system, you can
(34:38):
listen to all of those parts and.
Speaker 4 (34:40):
Say yeah, like or you have to get up early, and.
Speaker 5 (34:43):
My mother part does not know it says no to
that plan, right, Like you know, I think it's about
listening to all of them and like coming to an
agreement like a family.
Speaker 3 (34:50):
Essentially, it's the concept of integration, and when you have
integrated or acknowledged your parts, you're likely going to choose
for healthier, yes, active ways to work hard, play hard.
Remember you and I were talking and I said, like
you and the journalism world, and you in the world
of seeing people in corporate America or New York. I
know myself like having worked with some leaders in the
(35:11):
corporate world and business professionals of big businesses, A lot
of what I've seen is.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
That they are high functioning.
Speaker 3 (35:18):
Alcoholics are addicts, so incredibly high functioning.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
So the work hard is they are overworking.
Speaker 3 (35:23):
They're wanting to hit the milestone, then hit another milestone,
then hit another milestone.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Obviously we're talking.
Speaker 3 (35:29):
About very high functioning because people could have similar struggles
not as accomplishing, So I'm not so they are accomplishing, right,
But then on the weekends or with their family, they're
completely numbing. And so essentially, if we look at that,
how rich is their quality of life. Then sometimes they
have either their wives or their children or themselves, they
end up and say, this is not a life like
I built, Like I just said, like a castle, I'm
(35:51):
not living in it.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
And that's really starting to look at this.
Speaker 3 (35:54):
Survival part or this working part really was brilliant, built
something that you needed.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
A lot of them came from not or keep from trauma.
Speaker 3 (36:00):
Yes, and at a certain point where people talk about
like scaling or leveraging or maintaining the mind and body
doesn't know how to then go like go into autopilot.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
It basically just keeps speeding like it's.
Speaker 4 (36:12):
Yes, yes, oh totally so like yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:16):
So it's funny because my son always says, like we
have to go to the autobonn because I always say,
I'm like that's where I could.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
Speak on and you're not going to take me, but
that's our thing.
Speaker 3 (36:24):
But then there's also something about like slowing down on
regular highways, you're not always on the autobah, and I
think that's where it's like, I know, I shared at
one point like there were years in my life where
I was hitting stir milestones or hitting certain income brackets,
but my quality of life went down. I think I
mentioned there was one guy who was like I looked
up to him. He owned, he opened therapy, practiced many
(36:46):
therapy practices, he duplicated it, he franchised, and he said
he hit ten million dollars and he was talking about
ways to do it. And the next year he came
out and he said, and why you should never be
a millionaire in the ten millions like me? And he
should have very personal story about how much alcohol we drink,
many moments he missed with his wife, how many like
Obviously it's not a matter of either being a millionaire
(37:08):
yeah yeah, or not make money. But I love the
honesty of the inner world. And I think coming back
here he was doing healing work. I think this conversation
essentially for anyone listening, for you yourself or for your clients,
is we're not going to rob them of if they
do have an overworking part right about.
Speaker 4 (37:25):
Oh yeah, that's a fir.
Speaker 5 (37:27):
I think, you know, we shouldn't name that because I
think it's a fear of a lot of people coming
into therapy. Is like if I don't want to, you know,
And I think, like that's the important part. Dick short
to say like there are no bad parts. We're not
trying to get rid of those parts. I think that's
really important to name because the people are like, well,
I wouldn't be a good journalist, like how would I
cover breaking news if I didn't? And that's so valid,
(37:48):
and we don't want to get rid of those parts.
Speaker 4 (37:49):
But it's about integration, which is exactly what you.
Speaker 3 (37:52):
Said, right, and the way we interview for anyone listening,
like if somebody does have a really difficult or exhausting schedule,
I don't like open the window shades on a room
that's been locked and say here, you have to change
your life. I'll just slowly start inching towards it or
use with like little slivers of awareness. So it's a
little bit more conscious choice points, right, But I think.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
I just want to name like that.
Speaker 3 (38:12):
They're right, there's beautiful parts, but I think it comes
back to as we're wrapping up, but it all comes
back down to like integration, And I think for any
client listening looking for a therapist or a therapist looking
to deepen their own selves. Of course you can go
to trainings. And I love Alyssa what you said, and
I know I find this for myself, life is a teacher.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
Like I remembered at eighteen, I thought I had life
will figure it out and.
Speaker 3 (38:35):
Then humble pies instead of I think life has a
way of again and again and again teaching like.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
Integration or humility or.
Speaker 3 (38:45):
Wisdom or slowing down or learning this or here's what
life is or this is what you hoped it would
be and this is where it is. And can you
find the beauty in that as you're you know, or
could you be present with the pain?
Speaker 2 (38:55):
Right?
Speaker 3 (38:56):
Yeah, it's the same valve of pleasure is the same
valve of pain, and as we clear that out, there's
more capacity to be.
Speaker 2 (39:02):
So are there.
Speaker 3 (39:03):
Any last thoughts or any takeaway that you would want
to give anyone who's maybe on a journey, maybe somebody
who's very overworking doing the rap rates of trainings and
they're not sure what to do? Like, is there a
question that you would ask them to ask themselves that
might help them?
Speaker 1 (39:18):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (39:19):
I mean I would ask them that same question do
they want to do it? Or do they feel like
they need to? And I think that's again like getting
familiar right. Every person is so different and has such
a different constellation of parts that I think like for them,
like you said, it's like to do their own therapy
or have that own space. And honestly, even if it
is more of like a peer, like, I think that
(39:39):
they're you know, because I want to be realistic that
I think like it's a privilege to be able to
afford to like spend a lot of money on healing,
right on your own self healing. And I think there's
a lot that you can do by yourself, Like I
will say, I feel like a lot of reading, right
or like sort of you know, stuff can happen where
you can get like curious about your own parts in
(40:00):
your own you know, like in your.
Speaker 4 (40:02):
Own space, and you can get creative about it, right.
Speaker 5 (40:05):
I like also want to give that as hope because
I think, as like a young therapist, you're not making
like money to be able to sit with an IFS
level three trained person.
Speaker 3 (40:15):
But while you're saying that, yeah, I remember when I
started going to therapy, I went through like a clinic abroad,
and then after I went to a therapist that was
like doing a postgrad training. I know there's like some
postgrads where you'll get it very highly discounted, And I
love what you're saying, like, honestly, guy knows about this podcast.
A lot of the conversations were very validating and enriching
(40:36):
to me to help me understand like my own mind
and body like knowledge is with the connecting with friends
or colleagues. Yeah, find someone who's able to support you
in the healing work or start developing language around it.
I love how you're talking about like what's reasonable, but
I think like being able to give yourself that gift,
Like people often ask me, like, what's your training? And
(40:57):
I did get and I do have a lot of
training right remote right, But like when I think about it,
like I was just working on one of the chapters
that I was editing in the book that I wrote
with a new Harbinger, and I'm like, I like, to me,
it's like my own reflections, my own confusion, my own fear,
and then be present with that and moving through that
is really like the own right, my own therapy journey,
(41:19):
whatever that looks like for people. Your self reflection is
really also one of the biggest investments. So if somebody
is looking at do I do a post scridge training
or do I do my own therapy, obviously I.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
Would love for you to do both.
Speaker 3 (41:29):
Yeah, but sometimes right, sometimes there's a time for more
inner work, and sometimes it's more like a building, a
building up the skills work. By the way, on parts work,
like you said, there's actually a blog I wrote a
long time ago. It's called what is parts or what
is parts work? If anyone wants to google it, and
I just explained, and there's like some images when I
(41:49):
had like a lot of time I created and I
just so if anyone wants to use that as a resource. Yeah,
this was so wonderful. I'm so glad to be on here. Guy,
keep doing your amazing work.
Speaker 2 (41:59):
And I thank you all for listening.
Speaker 4 (42:03):
Thank you Esther
Speaker 1 (42:07):
Hm
Welcome to the special guest host series of The Trauma
Therapist Podcast, where I'm going to be handing over to
mic to some incredible guest hosts. In each episode, you'll
hear fresh perspectives and unique insights to inform and inspire you,
all the while keeping the heart of this podcast alive.
So sit back and enjoy.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Hey everyone, my name is Esther Goldstein.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
I'm an anxiety therapist and trauma therapist the Long Island,
and I'm so excited to be on here. For those
of you who have heard my past podcast episodes with
Guy Macpherson, I love the work that Guy has done
for the trauma community, for therapists, for bringing heart centered
conversations and humility to this world. So thank you guys
(00:42):
for inviting me as a guest host. I'm so excited
to bring on Alyssa today. Alyssa, I'm not going to
introduce yourself, introduce you. Tell us a little bit about
who you are, some of your journey.
Speaker 4 (00:56):
Yeah, yeah, Hi, thanks so much for having me. Yeah.
I'm a former journalist.
Speaker 5 (01:02):
I worked as a breaking news producer for ABC and
CNN for over a decade, so I my job was,
you know, anytime a story broke, whether it was a kidnapping,
a shooting, a hurricane or tornado, I would jump on
a plane and go to wherever the story was and
in bed, sometimes for days or months at a time
within these communities.
Speaker 4 (01:20):
To try to get an interview.
Speaker 5 (01:23):
And so, yeah, as you can imagine, it really gave
me a front row seat to a lot of large
scale trauma, and it made me want to do more
than just tell these stories. I wanted me to learn
more about how to heal from trauma, which is how
our past crossed. You know, I'm in a group practice
in New York City, but I was in your trauma
(01:43):
group consultation, which was incredible.
Speaker 4 (01:45):
I've learned a lot from you.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Yeah, so could you.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
Tell us right now you are a trauma therapist, and
could you just tell us just for a minute, as
you tell me about being a journalist.
Speaker 5 (01:57):
My specific job was finding interviews for Diansweer or Anderson Cooper,
you know, finding people for them to interview. So sometimes
you know, those interviews would happen right away. Other times
it would take months for people to you know, be
ready to share their story, especially with the more sensitive stories.
Speaker 4 (02:13):
So you know, it was very competitive. We were trying
to get the.
Speaker 5 (02:15):
First interview among the morning shows or among you know,
cable news.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
But yeah, yeah, I'm curious if you can share before
we go into like what it means to be a
trauma therapist and how you've come to this journey, Because
there's professional journeys that propel us towards something or away
from something, and then there's also our own personal sense of.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Meaning fulfillment or direction that we go towards.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
I just do want to first say, like, yeah, Alyssa
reached out to Drum one of our consultation groups. This group,
I mean, right, like there are people around the world
who are just like incredible, like wow, like impact with them.
But Alyssa, can you tell us, like what is it
about the experience of being a journalist that what is
it that you noticed about human beings creatures? Is about
(03:01):
impact of trauma or big events that really impacts the psyche?
Like what did you notice that maybe the rest of
us who haven't been in their role noticed about humankind?
Speaker 4 (03:11):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (03:11):
I mean, to be honest, I feel like the thing
I noticed most was just human resilience, right, Like, I
think it was really really incredible to be able to
watch how resilient people are, even right in the aftermath
of something like unimaginable, and I think journalism what that
taught me is just how powerful the relationship is. Like
(03:33):
you know we learn in grad school, right, the most
important thing is a therapeutic relationship, but like to have
someone be there with you and hold space for you.
Speaker 4 (03:41):
Like across from you, like just is so powerful.
Speaker 5 (03:45):
And then like if you add the sort of idea
that we were their story was reaching millions of people,
like how you heal in community, right, and how like
the idea of like all of these people around the
world hearing your story and like being able to reach
out to you and like, you know, reach towards you
in a time of tragedy. I felt like that was
just incredible. And then I think like then there was
the curiosity of Okay, so like what about that other
(04:07):
percent of.
Speaker 4 (04:08):
People who don't heal or who aren't resilient? Right? Resilient?
Speaker 5 (04:11):
I mean everyone is resilient, but like who still have
trouble like years later, you know, with something how to
be Yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
I think that's really my question because often there's breaking
stories and you'll hear people say like we're going to
be strong. I love that you got to be the
person for some of these people, because right, the whole
concept of mirror neurons and cool regulation is like you're
that voice, compassionate, You're not just a reporter who's wanting
to like dig into their story.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
You're basically saying, like, connect with me, and.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
In this connection we will create, we will support you,
and then obviously in sharing with the world. But yeah,
there's always the questions after, Like when I look at
the world right now or even past events, I often
look at like people who are in this spotlight and
we all have and maybe we could talk about this
in a minute, but like we have different parts of ourselves,
and so although one part might be at an episode,
(05:01):
at an experience, there are other parts present that often
either they do heal or there's enough support or making
sense of the experience, or they might be isolated and
alone and though they were in the spotlight, suddenly there's silence,
or there's confusion, or there's pain. So I'm always curious
about like there's these breaking headlines and then I'm like,
(05:21):
who's coming home with them for dinner?
Speaker 2 (05:23):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (05:23):
Holding them cry? What is happening? So I you know,
I wonder about that.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
I don't know if you're privy to that information or
if you're just more you were more.
Speaker 5 (05:32):
Yeah, well, I mean I always wondered, like what I mean,
and I was lucky I kept in touch with so
many people I booked for stories so many times. I
didn't have that window into what was happening after. But
I mean I think like that. I mean, if I
could go back to school and you're like a PhD,
I would follow up with all of these people right
who've done interviews, because I feel like, overall, I felt
like most of them had a positive experience, especially with Anderson,
(05:55):
like you know, sitting across from him and the way
that we you know, did our stories. I felt very
you know, confident about the work we did.
Speaker 4 (06:03):
But yeah, I think it depends.
Speaker 5 (06:05):
It depends, like you know, as you know in therapy, right,
like every human is different.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
So yeah, so I'm curious, like what happened there that
you were like I'm not staying in journalism, Like what
shifted for you that you decided I want to go
to a different kind of row, a different kind of connection,
not just an interviewing in that kind of way.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
I'm curious if you want to share a.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
Bit about like the professional elements that took you to pause.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Or any other aspects connected to them.
Speaker 5 (06:34):
Yeah, yeah, I was saying that, Like, if you've read
Dan Harris's My more ten percent Happier, we actually worked
at A Morning America at the same time, although we're
passed across that much.
Speaker 4 (06:44):
But his story, you know, like you really get a.
Speaker 5 (06:47):
Feel for sort of the fast paced, like high pressure,
you know, vicarious trauma, and whereas like his journey sort
of like culminates with like drug addiction and an on
are panic attack. Like my story wasn't so dramatic, but
I had the industry was definitely taking a toll on me.
You know, I would get these debilitating migraines that would
take me out for days at a time. I had
(07:08):
really bad back pain. It's probably drinking more than I
should have at the time. And I think, like, you know,
whereas Dan Harris found meditation and Buddhism, I think my
like come to do this moment was finding ifs our
internal family systems, and we you know, talk a lot
in our consultation group about that, but just this idea
of like that we all have parts, right and that
some of our parts that make us really good at
(07:30):
our job. So for me, you know, probably that relentless
drive and like a little bit of like anxiety and
people pleasing, right, like you know, which I see a
lot in a lot of my clients. You know, that
takes a toll when those parts are the only ones
driving the bus so to speak, you know, like other
parts of us. And like clearly like my body was
telling a different story, right, Like it was taking me.
Speaker 3 (07:51):
Out, yeah, emotionally and physically. So wait, so the book
was called just to back up from it such wise
and I want to kind of open each of them slowly.
So what was the author's name again? And then how
soon after he was in that role did he then
write the book?
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Do you want to tell?
Speaker 4 (08:10):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (08:10):
Yeah, well his name is Dan Harris. So he was
he worked, you know, he was on air, which I wasn't.
So it was a very different world but ten percent happier. Yeah,
and he wrote I think he was still working at ABC.
Speaker 4 (08:23):
When he wrote the book.
Speaker 5 (08:25):
But yeah, you know, talked about his journey and you know,
which is again like you know, there were a lot
of parallels and how he found Buddhism and meditation, and
it taught him to like slow down and understand.
Speaker 4 (08:36):
It's very similar, right, there's like a lot of overlaps.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
Yeah, And so I love that you're saying, basically his
book The ten Percent Happier, How basically he's sharing his
story of how maybe externally and I guess and when
as we're having this conversation, essentially like you're talking about
your story. I know on a previous podcast with Guy McPherson,
I shared about building external components of growth or success,
(09:00):
but then also wanting to feel like I'm coming.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Home to my body because sometimes and.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
We'll talk about parts work in a minute, Sometimes we
build external like we could build a castle, but then
it's also like can I live in the castle?
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Can I slow down on the castle? Or am I
just so.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
Good at building right that I forget and my body
actually in mine don't even enjoy it? Right?
Speaker 2 (09:19):
And I think that's like the chapter two.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
Sometimes we're looking at chapter one when we're in survival
or when we're looking to build, which is not a
bad thing, but very few people talk about chapter two.
It looks like and am I not look as sexy
or as shiny or as sophisticated or as noisy, but
it's actually important for longevity, of health and of growth
and actually what success really means. Okay, so your thing
he speaks about panic attacks and turning to addiction, and
(09:46):
so could we talk. So you're saying like in your experience,
even being in this journalism role was high pressuring. You
were overworking, and we spoke about like the work hard,
play hard, right, So and then and then it sounds
like at some when you kind of found your own
right you said, come to Jesus of like I want
to slow down. You found the therapy world and specifically parts.
(10:08):
So for anyone who does or doesn't know parts, could
you talk? And I know, yeah, my consultations always talk
about parts, and we always talk about this, like which
modality so medic ifs cmdr right? And I always say
it's usually a combination. But I think any good healing,
really it is important for us to understand the concept
of parts. So you want to give us just the
basic of like how you understood what is parts? To
(10:29):
anyone who's listening to talk about the overachieving, over successful
drive part and how if we don't pause that then
we end up just falling apart and how we could
help ourselves as professionals but also our clients.
Speaker 4 (10:43):
Yeah yeah, I mean, I mean just even on the bait.
Speaker 5 (10:45):
And there's many different types of parts work, you know,
like IFS is just one of them. But yeah, IFS
has this idea where we all you know, it's almost
like we have an internal family inside of us, which
like resonated so much for me, right, Like I think
instead of you know, being an alcoholic or having anxiety, right,
it's like there's a part of us that drinks and
(11:06):
there's a purpose to that, right, And so I think,
you know, they conceptualize managers, right, like parts that are
sort of like never again, those are the parts that
I talked about, right, like sort of that relentless, like
dry you know, drive, anxiety, like hyper vigilance. You know,
people pleasing these parts that are like you know, basically
protecting younger wounds, which you know again like our parts
(11:28):
that are frozen back in time and you know, holding
a lot of pain and suffering and you know that
can be from big t trauma, can be from small
tea or a family of origin stuff.
Speaker 4 (11:39):
And then we have like our numbing like.
Speaker 5 (11:41):
Firefighters that when they start to feel the pain of
the childhood. The younger parts, they will douse the flames, right,
So that's like the drinking, the binge, eating right, like
eating the things that are like reactive, and they come in.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
To stuff impulsive.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
It's almost like it's almost right. It's almost like impulsive,
like safe sex or working like.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
A very strong degree.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
Usually, if people are developing panic attacks or are stuck
in rage fits, or very disconnected or dissociated, or engaging
in affairs or right things that are basically destructive to
their life, and they're out of touch with their conscious choices,
there's usually a level of like impulsivity, and this these
parts are coming to save the person because it's like
(12:25):
I'm bringing the bell.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
I'm saying I need help.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
You're not listening, so I'm going to go even more
intensely and I don't know any other way to cope.
So we're not saying it's bad, it's just it's a
very desperate attempt to try to help the system. And
I love how you said, like the exiles are like childhood,
are their wounds.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
I think they could even be like emotion.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
Sometimes we're so afraid of failure or we're so afraid
of being alone achieve or like we said, like relentless.
What was the term that you use, like relentless?
Speaker 5 (12:53):
Like I yeah, fuls need to just be better, to
do more right like people, I mean, yeah, I see
it with so many of my clients, right, and they're
so good at their jobs.
Speaker 4 (13:05):
And I think, like.
Speaker 5 (13:06):
That's what esther, I don't know, Like I talk to
my clients all the time about this. Is like in
many ways, like trauma can be you can have sort
of like these superpowers that come from experiencing trauma.
Speaker 4 (13:16):
Right.
Speaker 5 (13:16):
Like there's a lot of good right, Like, there's a
lot of you know, people who are so successful because
of things that have happened in their past. But I
think the question I always ask my clients is like
are you doing this because you want to do it?
Speaker 4 (13:28):
Or are you doing it because you need to? Right?
Speaker 5 (13:30):
So it's like, you know, and I think that's a
good question that points to whether something needs to be healed.
Speaker 3 (13:36):
Yeah, And if we can hang out with that for
just a moment, I think the question of are you
doing this because you want to or are you doing
this because you need to? That question alone gives the
client opportunity to have access to a choice point. When
we go through trauma, or we go through anxiety, or
we're in an environment where we have to be over
be overware or overwork or under perform or quiet ourselves,
(14:02):
there's no choice points, right.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Trauma collapses, time gives us this pressure of just go.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
And when you're talking about right this like hyper drive,
it's almost like the person doesn't hasn't even taken.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
The time to have the ability or to be conscious of.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
Like there's actually a choice point here, and you're essentially
splowing things down and saying do you have to or
do you write?
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Or do you want to?
Speaker 3 (14:26):
And I think there alone is like the magic or
the power of or really healing happens. Like we have
someone in our consultation group who actually lives in.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
A different country, and she's treating a client who is
an athlete. Right, we're talking about like aths.
Speaker 4 (14:45):
That's such a good point, right, And.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
So there's someone who and then there's a few people
who I've like consulted with and on where some people
could be like Michael Phelps, right, like a swimmer who
basically is really hitting these incredible milestones. There are some
people who have been in these huge positions up creativity, leadership, musicians,
people who have built a lot of success, swimming the
(15:09):
English Channel's creating so many different books, and often what
we look at is people land up in our offices
not because they're doing okay, but there's a level of distress.
So when you see that intensity, right, that's kind of
like taking that fight or flight energy, that rush, and
they're channeling into something incredible. Right by the way, I
don't mean that Michael Phelps has a trauma history.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
I'm actually swimmer, but there's an incredible energy.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
And we also know people who have taken their intense
energy to be able to create, to be able to
micro to manage so much right, so many things. But
then what we often see is clients come in because
they feel like they have to.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
Yes, when you have to, you feel.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
Like kind of what you said about driving the bus,
feels like there was a part that's like shoving all
the responsible drivers on the side, taking over, pressing on
the gas at all, and it's like go, and then
you're like wait, you're running things over and it's like
stuff and stuff. I can't stop, I can't stop, and
it's not might even be hitting milestones and it's not
even feeling good.
Speaker 5 (16:05):
Yes, yes, and just like an internal family, just like
a real family. Sorry, just like a real family when
there is one sort of member of the family like
driving the bus and like taking over, right, like there
and does there's no space for the other members of
the family, right, that will have like an impact with children, right,
it will come out and their behaviors. Right, And I
feel like internally we're the same way, right, it comes out.
(16:26):
It's sort of like our clients come to us when
the cracks start showing, right, like.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
Yeah, yeah, So it's almost like when there's so I think,
like the when you speak about this like hyper drive,
to me, that's more like a manager, like the parts
that are trying to manage the system, people who are
very perfectionistic, people who are like there's healthy parts of
trying to manage life, right, and then there is parts
of here, Yeah, you're pretty extreme, right, compulsive. So I
(16:54):
guess I'm wondering, like for you, what was it and
being a journalist me, you think not just like pause,
my body is like overworking. I'm curious what about I
know you said we did a program at Akerman. I
mean just curious what brought.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
You to Yeah, in their family system.
Speaker 5 (17:13):
Yeah, yeah, I mean actually was incredible because my boss
is at CNN let me go back to grad school
while I was working, So so I started studying trauma
like while I was, you know, simultaneously working on all
of these stories.
Speaker 4 (17:26):
But yeah, no, I did.
Speaker 5 (17:27):
I studied family therapy at the Akerman Institute, which I think,
I said, like, almost makes me like a better IFS
therapist because I think, like many times you are working
with these parts that are almost like members of a family,
where like you have to sit them down on the
couch and you're listen. When you finally listen to their stories,
you're realizing, like these parts you think are really different, right,
(17:48):
the part that drinks and then the part that like
criticizes you are actually doing you know, both of them
are doing what they do to keep you safe, to
protect you, right, or like the younger version of you safe.
And I think like when our clients have those like
realizations or those moments, there's a lot more self compassion.
And I think again like goes back to like such
(18:08):
a key part of healing, right, is this ability to
have compassion for yourself and hold space for yourself and
your intern. Right, So I think that beautiful combination, which
is like holding space for someone else and for your
client that I learned sort of like early on in
my journalism career, and then this like taking it one
step forward of like helping your client learn how to
hold space and compassion within themselves. And I think that's
(18:31):
like the real right, Like I don't know, I'm sure
you agree, but right.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
Like that that yeah, it's almost like you're saying, like
learning about a family system, of real family system.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
It's like if one there's always a dynamics. Right.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
I think I just did this this like masterclass on
looking shame, and John Ratchaw actually talks about he was
He talks about the hero child, the attic child, the
silent child. So we all kind of take on roles
and family dynamics, and he talks about like a dysfunctional thing.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
Families.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
There's different roles people take on. But I love what
you're saying is that essentially knowing actually real family therapy
and essentially when when we're suffering or when our clients
are suffering, there's something that's array or a ray inside
of ourselves. That's basically saying I'm not okay instead of
saying okay, so just stop it or change it. It's
like I love what you're saying that you're almost like
(19:22):
coming in as like the journalists, but you're first like
connecting with them, and you're saying, okay, wait, hold on,
who's making the noise the most noise? Right, there's one
part it's almost like you're sitting like with a whole.
It's almost like the clients come in, I'm like, where's
the you know you're here with blink and and I'm like, oh, interesting,
it feels like blah blah blahs here, or it feels
like there's some angry part of you that you tell
(19:43):
me you want to get you want to heal, but
you have so much skepticism all over here.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
So I want to get to.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
Work with a skeptic or ling the anger in here.
So I love how you're saying like one is because
people often say, like, what's the quick work to working
with these behaviors?
Speaker 2 (19:59):
And and I love that what you're saying.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
The first thing always like people say, okay, do in
our child healing work, just say oh you're safe, everything's
fine and awful when people do that, right, like the
client does not feel relief because you're skipping over some
important piece because it's like, let's first connect. Like if
we see a part that's like overworking, it's usually so
(20:21):
frightened or feels this pressure to keep doing what it's doing.
And a lot of times if it had another option
or if it knew that the system or the person
would be okay, if it actually like didn't have to
work so hard, it would let go, or if it
had different kind of support.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
So I love that you're saying, like number one, get
to know this part and connect with it.
Speaker 4 (20:42):
Yeah, right, like just.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
And then be compassionate to well instead of being like
while you're drinking again, it's like, wow, so you're going
back for that fifth bear tonight? Yeah, I wonder what's
going on for you or I'm wondering what, like what's
so unbearable about being in this moment without going for
that bear or going yeah.
Speaker 5 (20:59):
And even like the huge shift of talking to the
again sounds so woo right. And if you had asked
me like ten, yeah, twenty years ago whatever, when I
was a journalist, I'd be like, you've got to be kidding,
you know, like anytime yoga like Medita, I'd be like, oh,
like I could not slow down. So I'm not saying
it's like an easy jump from there to there, but yeah,
(21:19):
like getting curious about the part itself, right, like asking it.
Speaker 4 (21:23):
Yeah, like what you know when.
Speaker 5 (21:24):
You reach for that Like what are you afraid it
would happen if you didn't reach for that drink?
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Right?
Speaker 5 (21:29):
And it's like sort of amazing, Like you know, all
of our clients have those answers. I mean not to
say there aren't parts that are like going to come
in and block or numb them out or dissociate them, right.
I Mean it's not always eat smooth seiling and parts
work either, but yeah, I think like that bringing that
curiosity right.
Speaker 3 (21:47):
So almost like the journalist part of you is almost
like there where you're connecting with them and then you're
almost modeling like how they could connect with our own
inner world because essentially we want our clients to copy
and paste.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
Right it's happening in the therapy room.
Speaker 3 (21:59):
Is really like I want you to be able to
do this in your own inner life and with other people.
Speaker 5 (22:05):
Yeah, yeah, and experientially, I think like you're doing it
in the therapy room, they're they're actually getting the opportunity
to really listen, yeah, to like their own parts.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Yeah. And I'm not going to jump into the like
the blocking and associative parts, but I love that you
said that because if there's anyone listening who's a therapist
or a client, and if you've tried to do parts,
or if you're trying to do fealing and it's a
little getting a little hairy or tricky, there's nothing wrong
with that.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
It just means that your system is very protective or
maybe defended, and then a good and skilled therapist is
going to work with the parts of you that block
or dissociate or are willing yet to. Like what you
said about parts are like do direct access and you
have people might eye them laugh about this, but essentially,
(22:53):
like what we found is it's one of the least
pathologizing ways of just understanding that every part has a
function or every behavior, every thought, every emotion. Sometimes it's
an emotion that somebody's overtaken by and they want to
avoid it, an emotion of shame, an emotion of fear,
and emotion of you know, like anger.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
So people might avoid that in.
Speaker 3 (23:14):
Many different kinds of ways of coping I'm curious Alyssa, Like,
if you just mentioned like looking back ten years ago yourself,
you would kind of laugh.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
And say you're so rude.
Speaker 3 (23:25):
But the other day you shared with me how you're
like the most fulfilled you.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Are in your life right now.
Speaker 3 (23:30):
Yeah, it's okay, I'm like bringing that up. No, Yeah,
And I'm loving that we're having this conversation right now.
And I'm wondering for anyone listening who maybe is a
younger therapist who's on a journey where maybe they are
just noticing that they are coming into this field to
either do their own healing work or they're wondering like
(23:51):
how to be able to create space for their own
self and also be a good therapist. Like what do
you think allowed you from your story of being a
journalist to doing some of the speaker work. What it
allowed you to really feel that whole feeling in your body,
feel that feeling inside.
Speaker 4 (24:08):
Yeah, I mean like working with my own parts.
Speaker 5 (24:10):
I think finding it's like so beautiful when you start
to make space for all of your parts and there's
this sort of integration that happens. And I think my
biggest thing, especially starting as a journalist, was I took
all of my really efficient journalist parts and I just
applied them to therapy. So, I mean, you love learning,
but I would take every single training, you know, I
(24:32):
would get every single consultation I know, and it became
like I was just taking those old parts that were
protecting some wounds, you know, like and I would just
you know, let them drive the bus. And I think
it wasn't until I finally was like, Okay, let's slow
down with these parts that want to be the best
therapist or want to learn you know, like the best training,
you know, like or be so efficient and really help
(24:54):
my clients heal. I think like when I worked with
those parts and they stepped out of the way, that's
when like the real miraculous hilling happens, right, is when
you're letting your own client system guide and with like
sort of the soft touch you bring in skills, right,
but they also know when to get out of your
parts know when to get out of the way, and
they have trust that you know that you.
Speaker 4 (25:16):
Know what you're doing in the room. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (25:19):
Love you're saying.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
I love, love, love what you're saying. It's almost like
I remember in one of my IFS, like I think
it was the second level IFS training, and they were
talking to us about the difference between therapist blood sessions
with our clients or self led sessions and self is
like the core of who we are. And then there's
(25:41):
like parts of therapists who are like I need to
be the healer, I need to be the hero, I
need to be the judge, right, I.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
Need to be the caretaker.
Speaker 3 (25:48):
And as you're talking right now, I'm just thinking like
essentially when.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
We as humans, when we as moms, when we as.
Speaker 3 (25:58):
Lovers, when we ASPI because who we are are like
who we are with the way we do life, is
the way we do love, it's the way we do relationships,
it's everything. It's like the core of who we are
comes across. That's why I always say, like your values,
who you are, You're in it, like right, So I
love how you're saying, like essentially doing your own inner
work instead of taking like the part of you that
(26:18):
was the seeker and the learner and the needing to
be the best for whatever function that served or serves.
It's almost like as you like exhaled and settled into
self energy.
Speaker 5 (26:28):
Yes, that's exactly I can put it so much better
than I could.
Speaker 3 (26:31):
I think you're actually saying it perfectly, and I'm actually
linking all of this up, and and I think that,
like I don't know, just anyone listening, I don't know
if there's ever like a perfect route to get there,
because as you're saying this, like I remember, the part
of me that was like going to get my phdo
(26:51):
was abroad. I went to Hebrew University and one of
the professors you have to get a professor who takes
you on as a mentor and then takes you on
under this piecettlement and they kept I kept interviewing different
mentors or they interviewed me and they said, what do
you want to work with And I said trauma. So
they said, don't get your PhD. I'm like, I want
to be a doctor, like for your work or for
your ego.
Speaker 4 (27:12):
Oh that's so funny.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
Yeah yeah, because they were like, actually, like you should
do POSTCRAD training.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
Yeah, you good trauma work.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
Because I was working with a lot of people struggling
with addiction, and I realized there's behavioral management kind of
what we're mentioning, which, of course you want to help
people become sober, but you know how like.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
What's his name?
Speaker 3 (27:34):
He always talks about how the opposite, like the opposite
of addiction is not sobriety, it's connection, right.
Speaker 4 (27:41):
Yeah, I mean he does.
Speaker 3 (27:42):
Yeah, So it was a matter of like looking at
the parts of them that never felt connection. So anyway,
so then I was like, hey, I'm not going to
do that. I did a postcrad in the end at
Hebrew You but as you're saying this, like I have
also had parts and I still have that part that
sometimes gets woken up and is like ah, and then
I'm like right where it's like I want to grab
(28:04):
this and I want to grab this. Yeah, like more
presence in session or less presence in sessions. I want
to say this to anyone, like it's not that you're
meant to listen to Alyssa and be like I want
to be like Alyssa or how can I be perfectly
self led therapist.
Speaker 4 (28:18):
And I'm not. Yeah, yeah, I think even just like.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Knowing like it's okay.
Speaker 3 (28:24):
The therapists who are wonderful humans and therapists are the
ones who, like you're sharing, you've taken the time to reflect.
I share like like it's okay to have all these
different parts. What we do want to do is be like, okay,
now how do I Yes, we do need skills, we
do need to be able to provide offer.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
I'm healing, but.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
If we're kind of divorcing ourselves, or if we're not
present or integrated, like you said, in our own minds
and bodies, we're not going to be as impactful of
a healing vessel. We're not really going to model that
homeness or that integration that our clients are really needing.
And I just want to bring this back is when
I asked you what allows you to feel so fulfilled
(29:02):
right away? Bingo, you said, well, I feel like I'm
working with my own heart, like a sense of integration, which.
Speaker 5 (29:09):
Yeah, and you know, I like, will be honest, I
think that there is a big element like in journalism,
there was part of me that felt like unfulfilled, like
I wanted I wanted more meaning in my life, you know,
and like you know there which like looking back, I
do think like, wow, you know you still had you
were doing like these big things, reaching big audiences, but
there was like still avoid right and I think now
(29:31):
like being able to work with people every day and
have that connection and truly feel like I'm on this
like collaborative journey to helping them heal. Like there's no
better feeling, like at the end of the day, you know,
to feel like you're making a difference and you're like
connecting in a really genuine, you know, true honest way.
I mean that sounds cheesy, but like I think that's
like why I love my job.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Yeah, I don't think it's cheesy.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
I think like some of us, like we all have
different needs, and I love that you're speaking.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
To the fact like one of the people how much.
Speaker 3 (30:00):
Yeah, she said to me, I'm loving this trauma training
or I'm loving to learn about this, but to be honest,
I feel like this is helping me heal and me
understand my own somatic and symptoms better. And she's like, honestly,
she was in like an educational role and in leadership.
She's like, I want to create like trauma unformed systems
to support like schools and to support like trauma occupational therapy.
(30:23):
So we all have different needs and I love it
for you. You're saying like you want, you appreciate you
were hungering for more of this, like right, being a
therapist is a very intimate experience of very big human emotions.
You have a lot of capacity, Like this is why
I think you're an excellent therapist. No, really, because I
think it's like having the not just like oh, I
want to help heal the world. It's like I'm holding
(30:45):
myself accountable to a real sense of integration or noticing
my own parts, or can tolerate and be with big
realities or be curious about what's going on and then
kind of provide some kind of healing relationship. Obviously, I mean,
you have so many skills with the right kind of
therapeutic interventions. But I think that's really a parallel process
(31:06):
of like, hey, you're checked into like a very meaningful
line of work for.
Speaker 4 (31:09):
You, Yeah, and figuring what that is for you.
Speaker 5 (31:12):
But I think that's such a great example with this
other woman, Right, it looks different for everyone.
Speaker 4 (31:17):
And also like your balance of you know, like yeah,
what you want your work day.
Speaker 5 (31:20):
You know, we were talking about like working in the office
versus being remote. Right, those are all questions I think,
you know, every therapist has to ask themselves.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
Yeah, so I think just to wrap up, like I'm
loving this conversation. I like to talk about parts work
for hours. Mike, do you love what you just said
about like needing to right? Obviously do a check in.
I think the thing that I'm working away with most
from this conversation is one, Oh.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
We didn't talk about this. This is what I do
want to say. I guess as I wrap up, is
like the concept of.
Speaker 3 (31:49):
What it means to be in this place of like
noticing when we have parts of ourselves that might be
overworking or overperforming, and how going through trauma or just revival.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
Or parts of ourselves that learn to function.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
Sometimes we feel like we need to versus we want
to noticing that differentiation looking at just like when you
mentioned like the ten percent happier times or maybe your
own mind, your body as a therapist or with your
clients are starting to speak and the power of listening
in you know, so many times I read these articles around,
(32:23):
like suicide prevention, like here the one eight hundred number,
and suicide prevention is not a one hundred number. Suicide
prevention is understand your anxiety and trauma, get the right
medication for mental health conditions if you need, get the
right support, have a food and shelter right, be able
to make sense of the narrative of your life, or
like you're saying, like figure out. For him, it was
(32:43):
about Buddhism. For you, it was about slowing down and
doing healing work. Like people can walk, can drive themselves
into a grieve, or they can they can get themselves
back up. And I guess I want that hope and
inspiration here. Who's in a very dark spot suicide prevention
or I don't just mean physical suicide, even emotional mental suicide.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
So many people are living detached.
Speaker 3 (33:05):
And healing is a matter of we're becoming alive, is
a matter of really looking at those parts. Yeah, like
the right supports, the right resources, These kinds of podcasts
I think are very rich. So I get them his
last piece and we talk about work hard, play hard.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
It could we just.
Speaker 3 (33:21):
Like open that nut for one second, like what's the
work hard, play hard, and then we'll talk about like
what is that How can we help let's say, a
therapist or people who are working with clients like that.
Speaker 5 (33:31):
Yeah, Well, I mean I think because like I think
it looks different for everyone, Like I think like there
is a healthy way to work hard, play hard. But
I think usually what we see, which I think we
started with, it's like work hard, play hard means like
I'm going to let these manager parts completely drive the
bus for like five days of the week, and then
on Friday, this other part, right that could be a firefighter,
(33:54):
right or a numbing part is like okay, now it's
our turn. And then that's where like the drug addiction
or alcohol or sex or you know, TV or be
you know right like where any of these other things
come in. And it's I mean, you know, like sometimes
it's completely dissociative, right where those parts take you over
so much that you might not remember what you did
over the weekend, right, or like there's a huge physical toll.
(34:18):
So I don't know, I think like that there is
a spectrum. I think like that's the most extreme when
people come to us, right like, and then there's like
I think there is a way to work hard, play
hard where you're like noticing, Okay, like there's a part
that just wants to go dancing with my friends, and
I'm gonna let that part just like you know, I
think like when you have an integrated system, you can
(34:38):
listen to all of those parts and.
Speaker 4 (34:40):
Say yeah, like or you have to get up early, and.
Speaker 5 (34:43):
My mother part does not know it says no to
that plan, right, Like you know, I think it's about
listening to all of them and like coming to an
agreement like a family.
Speaker 3 (34:50):
Essentially, it's the concept of integration, and when you have
integrated or acknowledged your parts, you're likely going to choose
for healthier, yes, active ways to work hard, play hard.
Remember you and I were talking and I said, like
you and the journalism world, and you in the world
of seeing people in corporate America or New York. I
know myself like having worked with some leaders in the
(35:11):
corporate world and business professionals of big businesses, A lot
of what I've seen is.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
That they are high functioning.
Speaker 3 (35:18):
Alcoholics are addicts, so incredibly high functioning.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
So the work hard is they are overworking.
Speaker 3 (35:23):
They're wanting to hit the milestone, then hit another milestone,
then hit another milestone.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Obviously we're talking.
Speaker 3 (35:29):
About very high functioning because people could have similar struggles
not as accomplishing, So I'm not so they are accomplishing, right,
But then on the weekends or with their family, they're
completely numbing. And so essentially, if we look at that,
how rich is their quality of life. Then sometimes they
have either their wives or their children or themselves, they
end up and say, this is not a life like
I built, Like I just said, like a castle, I'm
(35:51):
not living in it.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
And that's really starting to look at this.
Speaker 3 (35:54):
Survival part or this working part really was brilliant, built
something that you needed.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
A lot of them came from not or keep from trauma.
Speaker 3 (36:00):
Yes, and at a certain point where people talk about
like scaling or leveraging or maintaining the mind and body
doesn't know how to then go like go into autopilot.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
It basically just keeps speeding like it's.
Speaker 4 (36:12):
Yes, yes, oh totally so like yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:16):
So it's funny because my son always says, like we
have to go to the autobonn because I always say,
I'm like that's where I could.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
Speak on and you're not going to take me, but
that's our thing.
Speaker 3 (36:24):
But then there's also something about like slowing down on
regular highways, you're not always on the autobah, and I
think that's where it's like, I know, I shared at
one point like there were years in my life where
I was hitting stir milestones or hitting certain income brackets,
but my quality of life went down. I think I
mentioned there was one guy who was like I looked
up to him. He owned, he opened therapy, practiced many
(36:46):
therapy practices, he duplicated it, he franchised, and he said
he hit ten million dollars and he was talking about
ways to do it. And the next year he came
out and he said, and why you should never be
a millionaire in the ten millions like me? And he
should have very personal story about how much alcohol we drink,
many moments he missed with his wife, how many like
Obviously it's not a matter of either being a millionaire
(37:08):
yeah yeah, or not make money. But I love the
honesty of the inner world. And I think coming back
here he was doing healing work. I think this conversation
essentially for anyone listening, for you yourself or for your clients,
is we're not going to rob them of if they
do have an overworking part right about.
Speaker 4 (37:25):
Oh yeah, that's a fir.
Speaker 5 (37:27):
I think, you know, we shouldn't name that because I
think it's a fear of a lot of people coming
into therapy. Is like if I don't want to, you know,
And I think, like that's the important part. Dick short
to say like there are no bad parts. We're not
trying to get rid of those parts. I think that's
really important to name because the people are like, well,
I wouldn't be a good journalist, like how would I
cover breaking news if I didn't? And that's so valid,
(37:48):
and we don't want to get rid of those parts.
Speaker 4 (37:49):
But it's about integration, which is exactly what you.
Speaker 3 (37:52):
Said, right, and the way we interview for anyone listening,
like if somebody does have a really difficult or exhausting schedule,
I don't like open the window shades on a room
that's been locked and say here, you have to change
your life. I'll just slowly start inching towards it or
use with like little slivers of awareness. So it's a
little bit more conscious choice points, right, But I think.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
I just want to name like that.
Speaker 3 (38:12):
They're right, there's beautiful parts, but I think it comes
back to as we're wrapping up, but it all comes
back down to like integration, And I think for any
client listening looking for a therapist or a therapist looking
to deepen their own selves. Of course you can go
to trainings. And I love Alyssa what you said, and
I know I find this for myself, life is a teacher.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
Like I remembered at eighteen, I thought I had life
will figure it out and.
Speaker 3 (38:35):
Then humble pies instead of I think life has a
way of again and again and again teaching like.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
Integration or humility or.
Speaker 3 (38:45):
Wisdom or slowing down or learning this or here's what
life is or this is what you hoped it would
be and this is where it is. And can you
find the beauty in that as you're you know, or
could you be present with the pain?
Speaker 2 (38:55):
Right?
Speaker 3 (38:56):
Yeah, it's the same valve of pleasure is the same
valve of pain, and as we clear that out, there's
more capacity to be.
Speaker 2 (39:02):
So are there.
Speaker 3 (39:03):
Any last thoughts or any takeaway that you would want
to give anyone who's maybe on a journey, maybe somebody
who's very overworking doing the rap rates of trainings and
they're not sure what to do? Like, is there a
question that you would ask them to ask themselves that
might help them?
Speaker 1 (39:18):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (39:19):
I mean I would ask them that same question do
they want to do it? Or do they feel like
they need to? And I think that's again like getting
familiar right. Every person is so different and has such
a different constellation of parts that I think like for them,
like you said, it's like to do their own therapy
or have that own space. And honestly, even if it
is more of like a peer, like, I think that
(39:39):
they're you know, because I want to be realistic that
I think like it's a privilege to be able to
afford to like spend a lot of money on healing,
right on your own self healing. And I think there's
a lot that you can do by yourself, Like I
will say, I feel like a lot of reading, right
or like sort of you know, stuff can happen where
you can get like curious about your own parts in
(40:00):
your own you know, like in your.
Speaker 4 (40:02):
Own space, and you can get creative about it, right.
Speaker 5 (40:05):
I like also want to give that as hope because
I think, as like a young therapist, you're not making
like money to be able to sit with an IFS
level three trained person.
Speaker 3 (40:15):
But while you're saying that, yeah, I remember when I
started going to therapy, I went through like a clinic abroad,
and then after I went to a therapist that was
like doing a postgrad training. I know there's like some
postgrads where you'll get it very highly discounted, And I
love what you're saying, like, honestly, guy knows about this podcast.
A lot of the conversations were very validating and enriching
(40:36):
to me to help me understand like my own mind
and body like knowledge is with the connecting with friends
or colleagues. Yeah, find someone who's able to support you
in the healing work or start developing language around it.
I love how you're talking about like what's reasonable, but
I think like being able to give yourself that gift,
Like people often ask me, like, what's your training? And
(40:57):
I did get and I do have a lot of
training right remote right, But like when I think about it,
like I was just working on one of the chapters
that I was editing in the book that I wrote
with a new Harbinger, and I'm like, I like, to me,
it's like my own reflections, my own confusion, my own fear,
and then be present with that and moving through that
is really like the own right, my own therapy journey,
(41:19):
whatever that looks like for people. Your self reflection is
really also one of the biggest investments. So if somebody
is looking at do I do a post scridge training
or do I do my own therapy, obviously I.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
Would love for you to do both.
Speaker 3 (41:29):
Yeah, but sometimes right, sometimes there's a time for more
inner work, and sometimes it's more like a building, a
building up the skills work. By the way, on parts work,
like you said, there's actually a blog I wrote a
long time ago. It's called what is parts or what
is parts work? If anyone wants to google it, and
I just explained, and there's like some images when I
(41:49):
had like a lot of time I created and I
just so if anyone wants to use that as a resource. Yeah,
this was so wonderful. I'm so glad to be on here. Guy,
keep doing your amazing work.
Speaker 2 (41:59):
And I thank you all for listening.
Speaker 4 (42:03):
Thank you Esther
Speaker 1 (42:07):
Hm
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