In this episode, Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist, Esther Boykin shares how she cultivates compassion and community on her Compassion Collective Retreats for high-achieving, successful African American women. Esther shares how important providing a safe space for marginalized communities can foster greater intimacy, connection, and community and lead to a profound shift toward self-compassion.
Brooke Bralove, LCSW-C is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker, Psychotherapist, AASECT Certified Sex Therapist, Master Accelerated Resolution Therapy (ART) Practitioner, and Certified Daring Way™ Facilitator. Brooke specializes in treating adults, couples, and groups with anxiety, trauma, and sexual and relationship challenges. Brooke helps women of all ages let go of perfectionism and move toward greater authenticity, joy, pleasure, and connection. Brooke’s new passion is Accelerated Resolution Therapy, a brief treatment modality using bilateral eye movements to provide lasting relief and healing to patients with PTSD, trauma, phobias, anxiety, and depression. She has maintained a private practice in Bethesda, Maryland for 21 years.
Esther Boykin is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, executive coach, and keynote speaker recognized for bridging the gap between clinical insight and real-world business strategy. A former CEO and founder of a thriving therapy practice, she is now celebrated for her Compassion Collective Retreat, an immersive experience designed specifically for high-achieving women of color.Rooted in the belief that true success depends on self-compassion, community, and cultural relevance, Esther helps leaders, entrepreneurs, and everyday professionals cultivate workplaces—and personal lives—that “light them up.” From corporate consulting on mental health equity to one-on-one coaching for executives wrestling with burnout, she’s known for her warm, inviting style and thought-provoking insights.A TEDx speaker and media mental health expert, Esther has shaped conversations around modern wellness, challenging harmful norms like productivity obsession in her popular talk, “Laziness is a Lie.” As President of NAMI DC, she tirelessly advocates for more inclusive mental health resources. Drawing on two decades of expertise, Esther offers workshops, retreats, and custom trainings that blend empathy with action, empowering clients to lead authentically and maintain meaningful connections.
In This Episode:
Brooke
Esther
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Brooke Bralove, LCSW-C is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker, Psychotherapist, AASECT Certified Sex Therapist, Master Accelerated Resolution Therapy (ART) Practitioner, and Certified Daring Way™ Facilitator. Brooke specializes in treating adults, couples, and groups with anxiety, trauma, and sexual and relationship challenges. Brooke helps women of all ages let go of perfectionism and move toward greater authenticity, joy, pleasure, and connection. Brooke’s new passion is Accelerated Resolution Therapy, a brief treatment modality using bilateral eye movements to provide lasting relief and healing to patients with PTSD, trauma, phobias, anxiety, and depression. She has maintained a private practice in Bethesda, Maryland for 21 years.
Esther Boykin is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, executive coach, and keynote speaker recognized for bridging the gap between clinical insight and real-world business strategy. A former CEO and founder of a thriving therapy practice, she is now celebrated for her Compassion Collective Retreat, an immersive experience designed specifically for high-achieving women of color.Rooted in the belief that true success depends on self-compassion, community, and cultural relevance, Esther helps leaders, entrepreneurs, and everyday professionals cultivate workplaces—and personal lives—that “light them up.” From corporate consulting on mental health equity to one-on-one coaching for executives wrestling with burnout, she’s known for her warm, inviting style and thought-provoking insights.A TEDx speaker and media mental health expert, Esther has shaped conversations around modern wellness, challenging harmful norms like productivity obsession in her popular talk, “Laziness is a Lie.” As President of NAMI DC, she tirelessly advocates for more inclusive mental health resources. Drawing on two decades of expertise, Esther offers workshops, retreats, and custom trainings that blend empathy with action, empowering clients to lead authentically and maintain meaningful connections.
In This Episode:
Brooke
- IG: @brookebralovepsychotherapy
- FB:@brookebralovepsychotherapy
- TikTok: @bbralovepsychotherapy
Esther
- IG & LinkedIn: @estherbmft
- www.estherboykin.com
The Trauma Therapist PodcastJoin my email list and receive podcast updates and other news: https://bit.ly/3LuAG2i
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the special guest host series of The Trauma
Therapist Podcast, where I'm going to be handing over to
mic to some incredible guest hosts. In each episode, you'll
hear fresh perspectives and unique insights to inform and inspire you,
all the while keeping the heart of this podcast alive.
So sit back and enjoy.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Hi, and welcome to the Trauma Therapist Podcast. I'm your
guest host, Rock bray Love. I'm a licensed clinical social worker, psychotherapist,
trauma therapist, and ASEX certified sex therapist and I practice
just outside Washington, DC and I've been in private practice
(00:40):
twenty one years. I'm super excited to be back here.
Thank you guys for inviting me back for another guest host.
And I'm super excited today because I am going to
be having a wonderful conversation with my very very close friend,
Esther Boykin. So, first of all, welcome, Welcome.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
Thank you. I am thrilled to be here. It is well,
it's always fun to catch up with you, but in particular,
I'm excited for this conversation.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Great, all right, so let me give you a little intro.
Ester Boykan is a licensed marriage and Family therapist, executive coach,
and founder of the Compassion Collective retreat for high achieving
Women of Color. A TTEX speaker and president of NAMI DC,
(01:29):
she merges clinical expertise and business acumen to spark transformation.
Explore her work at estherboykan dot com and you can
follow her at esther DMFT. So let's just get right
into it. First of all, I thought it'd be fun
to share sort of how we know each other and
(01:51):
you know that sort of thing. I want to share that.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
Yeah, so I was trying to do the math. I
think ten she's probably about ten or eleven years ago.
I actually discovered kind of a non profit community project
that was just starting called sidewalk Talk, which is now
like an international, massive nonprofit community listening project all over
(02:19):
the globe, but at the time it was just in
San Francisco. I reached out and I was like, I
want to bring this to DC, and I think that
it was our very it was either our first or
second listening events, and so just a quick sidewalk talk
is basically like show up on the sidewalk and listen,
like present active listening. And I loved the idea, but
(02:41):
it was sort of new and I was like, is
this going to work? Is this?
Speaker 2 (02:45):
And then here comes Brooke, Yeah, and it was.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
I feel like it was such a fun and kind
of exciting thing for us to do and also a
really great way to kind of build a friendship.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
So I thought we'd with just maybe an understanding of
what compassion and self compassion means to you personally but
professionally and kind of how you understand it. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
You know, it's interesting because I think self compassion compassion
in general, but self compassion in particular. I think a
lot of us, as therapists have at some point. You know,
you've read Kristenev's book, you're sort of familiar with this concept.
But I think for me, and particularly over the last
like five to six years, like in my own personal
(03:33):
well longer than that, seventy eight years in my own
personal journey, as well as clinically working with clients and
particular clients from you know, black clients, clients of color,
but generally I also just work with a lot of
clients who have various marginalized identities, and more and more
I found myself in this space of like self care
is important, but self care is so insufficient to actually
(03:58):
help us to thrive and survive through the kinds of
things that I was experiencing and my clients are experiencing,
both systemically in society, but also you know, like I
went through a divorce, my children, went off to colleague,
all of these things, and I was like, yeah, these
week these daily walks and my salads and my massages,
(04:19):
like it's great, but it's not enough. And so that
for me, I think was kind of the unconscious impetus
that'd be like, okay, like what if I lean into
self compassion a little bit more? Which really led me
to shifting some of the ways I show up with
my clients and my clinical approach is really kind of
(04:42):
what if we make self compassion kind of the formula here,
what would that look like and how does that change things?
And for me, I've found again both personally and in
my you know, clinical work with clients, and even outside
of you know, doing in some of the other settings
that I do work in, really finding like, oh, the
self compassion is like a game changer.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
It's almost it sounds like you've you've really just like
put it front and center as a real foundation that
we all need rather than like, yeah, self care is
important here and here just really grounding yourself in that
self compassion practice. And what does self compassion sort of entail?
(05:24):
What goes into it? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (05:27):
I also like it because I love a good formula.
I love a good framework. So, you know, if you
look at the research, basically we talk about self compassion
as having three core pillars self kindness, mindful awareness, common humanity.
And I think the other piece for this for me
has been I think it gives a framework that people
(05:47):
can understand and helps us to then develop an approach
a way of being not just some things to do,
but a way of actually being with yourself, a way
of being in the world, being in relationship is looking
at these three things. And so the self kindness I
tend to think that's kind of where a lot of
our self care stuff lives. How do you treat yourself kindly?
(06:07):
You know? And beyond doing self care activities, how do
you talk to yourself? What is that inner narrative?
Speaker 1 (06:13):
You know?
Speaker 3 (06:14):
Like it taps into so much of the work that
we do with clients anyway, but then gives them a
way to think about it, a real framework of like
this is something you practice for yourself, on and on
and on.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Yeah, I mean I think that when I work with folks,
you know, they'll just be like, you know, I suck
at self compassion right, as if it's kind of a switch.
And so I do think using that word practice changes everything. Yeah,
because we're not supposed to be you know, good at
it or bad at it, or we do it or
we don't. You have to work at it. It takes
(06:48):
time and it has to build.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
There's a way of showing up in your life, right,
Like I mean the example I often will get to
people like you know, if you find people who meditate frequently,
what they talk about is their practice, their meditation practice,
like because every day is going to be different. Sometimes
it's great, sometimes it's not great, but every day I'm
on this journey. And I think shifting to that framework
(07:10):
really helps for me. It has helped a lot of
clients actually become a little bit gentler with themselves of like, yeah,
like you're never you're not going to get this perfectly
every day. You're not supposed to.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
Right, and that you don't you know, hit some you know,
you don't get a ribbon like I have mastered self
compassion It's something that will be with you throughout your
entire life and need to be You need to up
the ante some days and some days it comes.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
More easily m h exactly.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
So what sort of inspired you then to create this
structured compassion collective retreat program? Which is so awesome that
you've done this and you've got one coming up soon,
and you're always I always esther's everywhere, so I always
see you know stuff, even though I'm close with you
and talk to you every time. I'm like doing this
(08:00):
now and she's in that place. So tell us what
inspired you?
Speaker 3 (08:04):
Yeah, you know, I I think as a that you
probably can relate to this, Like you start after you've
been a therapist for a long time, like particularly if
you have a clear niche, Like eventually you're like, oh,
like I have like six clients, and if I could
just get y'all to get like, if you all would
just hang out on the weekends, that relationship, that friendship
would be like such a game changer in our work.
(08:27):
And it really is a little bit of that. Like
I definitely had a couple of clients who where it
was just like I think even in session and sometimes
I just be like I want you to know that
you're like not alone in this, Like I like, I
am working with other people who are saying the same thing.
And so I really started thinking about I was like,
what is the ethical way to make that happen? And
(08:48):
then beyond that was sort of really going like part
of me continuously having that thought is it really is
rooted in this idea that like, they need more than
what we can do in fifty minutes a week. They
need something different than what I can provide in just
doing individual or even in couples therapy. They need community
of people who are also on these journeys, practicing these skills,
(09:13):
wanting to heal, wanting to grow, wanting to transform. Because
that was sort of this constant theme. And then what
I in particular was finding is, particularly for my black
female clients and women in color in general, was there
was even less opportunity for that connection. There was you know,
I knew of other programs, of groups of retreats, of
(09:34):
things for them to do, but they were it was
also replicating the same experience that they have at work.
You're the only or you're one of two in a room.
And I was I was like, well, let me I
literally did. I took put my business hat and I
literally did like market research, and I just sent a
bunch of some current clients, some of them were former clients,
(09:57):
and really just said like, I'm really brainstorming of ways
to show up and to provide care and to pride services.
Here are some of the things that I have in mind,
and this retreat program in particular was one of them.
And it was a very particular thing because I was like,
I could do like a weekend retreat or a week
long retreat, and then I was like, we could also
do this other thing where it's like a retreat and
(10:19):
ongoing community, where it's like I will create some containers
for you all to stay connected after the retreats. And
that was the thing that like most people came back
and they're like, if you can do like when does
it start? Like are we doing it next month? When
do we get into it? And so I think there
was both my gut feeling and then actually hearing from
(10:43):
clients who were like, yeah, no, that's actually that would
be great, and particularly from clients who were you know,
maybe they're seeing me once a month or maybe they
were done with therapy, who were saying I still need care,
and I really like that's something I would invest in
to take care of myself.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Differently, Yeah, well, I love starting out, you know, with
a retreat I've done. I'm a certified Daring Wave facilitator,
as you know, so I facilitate Brenee Brown's Shame Resilience curriculum,
the power of the group, right, just in general what
that does. And it's amazing the bonds that can be
(11:20):
formed in such a short amount of time. But I
think one thing that was often missing is that continuity
of care. Right. You have this amazing experience where you
feel bonded, you learned a lot, and you're all gung ho,
and then sometimes there's not this sort of plan for after.
So I think it's amazing that you offer that, and
I'm sure people are so grateful for it. So let's
(11:44):
talk about maybe the pros and cons of creating groups
and retreats for very specific demographics. You know, you mentioned
black women or women of color for the Compassion collected,
but also women's groups versus WED groups. What are your
thoughts about that?
Speaker 3 (12:02):
No, I think there's a time and a place and
a value for both. I think in this particular kind
of moment of time there and maybe in all of
modern history this is probably true. We're just sort of
acutely aware. But I do think creating some space that
people talk about safe spaces, but I think being actually
(12:24):
intentional about creating curating spaces that can hold all of
a particular population's experiences. And so, you know, as the
example I was talking about, you know, like I have
all these black women that I work with who it's
not that they won't go on other retreats or participate
in other women's groups, but there is a piece of
(12:44):
their experience that is not front and center. And so
I think that that's and I think that's not just
unique to black women. You know, I think about it
actually quite a bit lately for men as an example,
in there are some unique things to that experience that
in a group that is most likely going to be
(13:05):
more heavily women, just because of the way that we
kind of attract people to groups and retreats that can
men find the safety to express their full experiences and
be supported in that. And that's really where I kind
of came from. So I think that from a clinician
facilitator perspective, it's really thinking about also like where is
(13:28):
your what sort of your special gift or your passion
and then kind of deciding and for me at that
moment in this time, it's like, well, this is kind
of what I want to be able to do. There's
something very particular happening I think for black women, particularly
for professional black women, right now, that there isn't a
(13:48):
place to go and then build the social community that
they need to feel cared for over the long haul.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
I will say in my experience of doing you know, weekends,
people always say, are you going to do a co
ed daring greatly? And I'm not. And I've done them
for men and I've done them for women, And I
ask folks, what do you think if you know men
were here, And each one of them said absolutely not,
And again not because they don't love men or appreciate men,
(14:20):
but they would have it would have changed their experience
and they would have limited their vulnerability. And I'm sure
that you're all about vulnerability on these weekends.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
Yeah, you know it really I always it's one of
the first things I say, you know, on the first
day of retreat is really being intentional about thanking people
and acknowledging there's vulnerability in just showing up. It just
registered like coming into a space with a bunch of
people you don't know where the intention is in fact
(14:53):
to be vulnerable. It is to share parts of yourself
that you are not sharing in other relationships or in
other areas of your life. That's a huge ask. And
so I do think that you know, as somebody who's
facilitating a holding that space, I have to really think
about that. What are we working on? And then how
do I curate a space that makes that a safe
(15:15):
environment for everyone who shows up? And sometimes it is
just very specific to demographics.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Absolutely, So what sort of skills do you think are
really essential for creating that safety? How do you do that?
I mean the container we talk about, how do you
do that? Right away?
Speaker 3 (15:35):
Yeah, you know, I think some of us have a
gift for it. I think it's important to just sort
of like name that, like I love that for you,
and I mean I know you to like, I think
you have a gift for holding space when you do
daring what like there is a piece of it that
is I don't say it's like magic, but we all
know where we have that. And I think it's useful
(15:59):
to name so for people, you know, if you are
a clinician and you're thinking maybe i'll run groups, maybe
I'll like check in to make sure first of all
that that even just feels like something that you could do,
and then there I do think there are obviously some
like very specific skills, and I think one of them
is I love Prea. Parker's book The Art of Gathering,
(16:20):
But in there, one of the first things she talks
about is like creating the space right around a particular intention.
Also to term like is partially based on how who
we invite like, And so I think a comfort level
in including and excluding and kind of being clear about
(16:41):
what that car like being able to get very clear.
And I don't know that all of us that that's
a skill that we can develop to really be clear,
Like if my intention for the retreat at the end
is X, then what are the criteria on the front
end about like who attends, what kind of therapy experience
they have to have? So I think having clear criteria
(17:03):
at the beginning is really an important skill that doesn't
always happen. Sometimes it's just kind of like, oh, let's
do you know, it's a wellness thing, and that's fine,
but if we're doing some sort of therapeutic deep to
emotional work, we need to be more specific. So I
think creating some really specific criteria around that is important.
(17:23):
I think an attention to actual set and setting. Partially
I love those things, but I am big on like
and there's research to support it. Like the space that
you're in, what does it feel like when you're there?
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Are we in like.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
A windowless hotel conference room or are we on an
expansive horse of state with you know, lots of trees
and windows and opportunity to sit outside in the grass.
And because the environment also influences what the experience is
going to be like, not just from a standpoint of
like I just want luxury, but from the standpoint of again,
(18:02):
what are we facilitating. If we're talking about rest and
can self compassion, then does the space itself and the
smaller details facilitate that experience for people? Recognizing that sometimes
it's hard for people to get there anyway, If you
are most of the people I work are busy. They
(18:22):
are constantly making decisions, their phone is never off, they're
never not checking emails. I need to facilitate an actual
environment that says you don't have to think about what
we're going to eat, you don't have to think about
what you can put your phone down, you can go sit,
you can go do nothing. And then I think, you know,
really just I think an intentionality around what is it
(18:45):
that you're trying to give people is to me one
of the most important factors.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
And I'm curious during the compassion Collective weekends, how much
sort of movement or nature you end and you know,
does that then I'm thinking you do breathwork? Is there yoga?
Speaker 3 (19:06):
So I I'm not a yoga instructor, so there's not
always yoga, although I do. I am a meditation teacher,
so most days I will offer yoga nidra, but by
the time we get to the end of the day,
nobody wants like everyone's like, sure, can I get a
recording that I can take back to bed, Like I
want to go lad day, like I'm tired, But I
(19:27):
do I encourage. I create a schedule that leaves a
lot of space, so there is always morning meditation, but
usually we try to start a little bit later. So
like people who just want a quiet walk, I always
pick properties where you can go walk, go outside, go
for a long walk, go for a hike. Then we'll
(19:48):
do meditation. I will typically if if I'm not bringing
someone in to actually do yoga and like a very
structured kind of movement, then we will do a lot
of things where I'm like, okay, well, sessions outside even
in the winter, I'm like, let's go, let's let's go
sit out in the snow. And then I've come to
(20:09):
incorporate a variety of other things that have either been
meaningful to me on retreats that I've gone to or
that I found. I tried it once and it really
worked well. So, like one good example is there is
almost always a fire ritual, So even in places where
there's not already a fireplace or a fire pit, I
have gotten very good at figuring out how to create that.
(20:32):
And so again we're outside, we're burning like. But I
think having some finding some flow around both movement and
nature is really, to me an important aspect of the process.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Yeah, and I don't know about you, but the longer
I practiced, the more I really questioning this. Why we
sit across from each other in a chair and don't
move for forty five or fifty minutes. It's just feeling
like the body is so much a part of all
of the work.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
Yeah, I love that. I think that's such a useful
question for us to I'll be asking just generally in
our day to day work. You know, I have a
couple of clients where periodically we'll do walking sessions. Uh huh,
you know, we'll meet and we'll you know, I'll meet
them at you know, some part like and just walk
and talk. And how different that experience is, or even
(21:22):
having one of the joys of you know, meeting virtually
is being like, go sit on your balcony, go sit
on your deck, right like you can be in nature
while we do this, and how different sometimes the work becomes.
And so it definitely is a big part of what
I try to do on retreats as well.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
So last thing is what's your dream and your vision
for the future of compassion collective retreats and then sort
of communal care in general.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
You know, I find myself incredibly inspired by devoted to
this idea of communal care and how do you weave
that into the work that we do as therapists and
a really in a more permanent way, you know, I
hear a lot of more people talking about being in community,
but like, how do we actually build that into our structure?
(22:13):
So I think about this a lot, specifically for the
Compassion Collective retreats. I really want to grow not only
the retreats, which you know, a five day retreat takes
me quite a bit of time and energy to prep,
but to move to a place where we're also doing
some one day workshops and other so that it is
(22:33):
an evolving and growing place of communal care, so that
eventually even people who may not be able to go
and retreat, let's say this year, have some opportunities to
begin to engage with the community and feel held there.
I think my longer term dream that I keep thinking
about is, you know, going back to the need for
spaces for different people to show up, is does this
(22:56):
evolve at some point to including other kinds of retreats,
retreats for couples, retreats for men, you know, retreats for
therapists and physicians. Like I think all of us are
in need of a place that kind of holds us
with compassion and cultivates our self compassion. And so just
thinking a lot about how I can kind of grow
(23:17):
and evolve to make more and more spaces and learning
that I can create a container and then it becomes
self sustaining. Not really that I have to like hold
all of it, but can I invite people in and
let other people then find their way forward to you know,
make it a sustaining connection and community.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
I have no doubt that you will be able to
do all of those things. So Esther, thank you so
much for being here today. It was fun to interview
you in a more professional way. I think we I
sort of interview all when we get together. We're just
real intense and so this was this was fun. So
(23:59):
thank you to Esther Boykin again. You can follow her
on Instagram and go to Esterboykin dot com. And my
name is Brooke Braylove and I'm signing off as the
guest host for The Trauma Therapist. Thanks so much, thank you,
Welcome to the special guest host series of The Trauma
Therapist Podcast, where I'm going to be handing over to
mic to some incredible guest hosts. In each episode, you'll
hear fresh perspectives and unique insights to inform and inspire you,
all the while keeping the heart of this podcast alive.
So sit back and enjoy.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Hi, and welcome to the Trauma Therapist Podcast. I'm your
guest host, Rock bray Love. I'm a licensed clinical social worker, psychotherapist,
trauma therapist, and ASEX certified sex therapist and I practice
just outside Washington, DC and I've been in private practice
(00:40):
twenty one years. I'm super excited to be back here.
Thank you guys for inviting me back for another guest host.
And I'm super excited today because I am going to
be having a wonderful conversation with my very very close friend,
Esther Boykin. So, first of all, welcome, Welcome.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
Thank you. I am thrilled to be here. It is well,
it's always fun to catch up with you, but in particular,
I'm excited for this conversation.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Great, all right, so let me give you a little intro.
Ester Boykan is a licensed marriage and Family therapist, executive coach,
and founder of the Compassion Collective retreat for high achieving
Women of Color. A TTEX speaker and president of NAMI DC,
(01:29):
she merges clinical expertise and business acumen to spark transformation.
Explore her work at estherboykan dot com and you can
follow her at esther DMFT. So let's just get right
into it. First of all, I thought it'd be fun
to share sort of how we know each other and
(01:51):
you know that sort of thing. I want to share that.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
Yeah, so I was trying to do the math. I
think ten she's probably about ten or eleven years ago.
I actually discovered kind of a non profit community project
that was just starting called sidewalk Talk, which is now
like an international, massive nonprofit community listening project all over
(02:19):
the globe, but at the time it was just in
San Francisco. I reached out and I was like, I
want to bring this to DC, and I think that
it was our very it was either our first or
second listening events, and so just a quick sidewalk talk
is basically like show up on the sidewalk and listen,
like present active listening. And I loved the idea, but
(02:41):
it was sort of new and I was like, is
this going to work? Is this?
Speaker 2 (02:45):
And then here comes Brooke, Yeah, and it was.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
I feel like it was such a fun and kind
of exciting thing for us to do and also a
really great way to kind of build a friendship.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
So I thought we'd with just maybe an understanding of
what compassion and self compassion means to you personally but
professionally and kind of how you understand it. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
You know, it's interesting because I think self compassion compassion
in general, but self compassion in particular. I think a
lot of us, as therapists have at some point. You know,
you've read Kristenev's book, you're sort of familiar with this concept.
But I think for me, and particularly over the last
like five to six years, like in my own personal
(03:33):
well longer than that, seventy eight years in my own
personal journey, as well as clinically working with clients and
particular clients from you know, black clients, clients of color,
but generally I also just work with a lot of
clients who have various marginalized identities, and more and more
I found myself in this space of like self care
is important, but self care is so insufficient to actually
(03:58):
help us to thrive and survive through the kinds of
things that I was experiencing and my clients are experiencing,
both systemically in society, but also you know, like I
went through a divorce, my children, went off to colleague,
all of these things, and I was like, yeah, these
week these daily walks and my salads and my massages,
(04:19):
like it's great, but it's not enough. And so that
for me, I think was kind of the unconscious impetus
that'd be like, okay, like what if I lean into
self compassion a little bit more? Which really led me
to shifting some of the ways I show up with
my clients and my clinical approach is really kind of
(04:42):
what if we make self compassion kind of the formula here,
what would that look like and how does that change things?
And for me, I've found again both personally and in
my you know, clinical work with clients, and even outside
of you know, doing in some of the other settings
that I do work in, really finding like, oh, the
self compassion is like a game changer.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
It's almost it sounds like you've you've really just like
put it front and center as a real foundation that
we all need rather than like, yeah, self care is
important here and here just really grounding yourself in that
self compassion practice. And what does self compassion sort of entail?
(05:24):
What goes into it? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (05:27):
I also like it because I love a good formula.
I love a good framework. So, you know, if you
look at the research, basically we talk about self compassion
as having three core pillars self kindness, mindful awareness, common humanity.
And I think the other piece for this for me
has been I think it gives a framework that people
(05:47):
can understand and helps us to then develop an approach
a way of being not just some things to do,
but a way of actually being with yourself, a way
of being in the world, being in relationship is looking
at these three things. And so the self kindness I
tend to think that's kind of where a lot of
our self care stuff lives. How do you treat yourself kindly?
(06:07):
You know? And beyond doing self care activities, how do
you talk to yourself? What is that inner narrative?
Speaker 1 (06:13):
You know?
Speaker 3 (06:14):
Like it taps into so much of the work that
we do with clients anyway, but then gives them a
way to think about it, a real framework of like
this is something you practice for yourself, on and on
and on.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Yeah, I mean I think that when I work with folks,
you know, they'll just be like, you know, I suck
at self compassion right, as if it's kind of a switch.
And so I do think using that word practice changes everything. Yeah,
because we're not supposed to be you know, good at
it or bad at it, or we do it or
we don't. You have to work at it. It takes
(06:48):
time and it has to build.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
There's a way of showing up in your life, right,
Like I mean the example I often will get to
people like you know, if you find people who meditate frequently,
what they talk about is their practice, their meditation practice,
like because every day is going to be different. Sometimes
it's great, sometimes it's not great, but every day I'm
on this journey. And I think shifting to that framework
(07:10):
really helps for me. It has helped a lot of
clients actually become a little bit gentler with themselves of like, yeah,
like you're never you're not going to get this perfectly
every day. You're not supposed to.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
Right, and that you don't you know, hit some you know,
you don't get a ribbon like I have mastered self
compassion It's something that will be with you throughout your
entire life and need to be You need to up
the ante some days and some days it comes.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
More easily m h exactly.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
So what sort of inspired you then to create this
structured compassion collective retreat program? Which is so awesome that
you've done this and you've got one coming up soon,
and you're always I always esther's everywhere, so I always
see you know stuff, even though I'm close with you
and talk to you every time. I'm like doing this
(08:00):
now and she's in that place. So tell us what
inspired you?
Speaker 3 (08:04):
Yeah, you know, I I think as a that you
probably can relate to this, Like you start after you've
been a therapist for a long time, like particularly if
you have a clear niche, Like eventually you're like, oh,
like I have like six clients, and if I could
just get y'all to get like, if you all would
just hang out on the weekends, that relationship, that friendship
would be like such a game changer in our work.
(08:27):
And it really is a little bit of that. Like
I definitely had a couple of clients who where it
was just like I think even in session and sometimes
I just be like I want you to know that
you're like not alone in this, Like I like, I
am working with other people who are saying the same thing.
And so I really started thinking about I was like,
what is the ethical way to make that happen? And
(08:48):
then beyond that was sort of really going like part
of me continuously having that thought is it really is
rooted in this idea that like, they need more than
what we can do in fifty minutes a week. They
need something different than what I can provide in just
doing individual or even in couples therapy. They need community
of people who are also on these journeys, practicing these skills,
(09:13):
wanting to heal, wanting to grow, wanting to transform. Because
that was sort of this constant theme. And then what
I in particular was finding is, particularly for my black
female clients and women in color in general, was there
was even less opportunity for that connection. There was you know,
I knew of other programs, of groups of retreats, of
(09:34):
things for them to do, but they were it was
also replicating the same experience that they have at work.
You're the only or you're one of two in a room.
And I was I was like, well, let me I
literally did. I took put my business hat and I
literally did like market research, and I just sent a
bunch of some current clients, some of them were former clients,
(09:57):
and really just said like, I'm really brainstorming of ways
to show up and to provide care and to pride services.
Here are some of the things that I have in mind,
and this retreat program in particular was one of them.
And it was a very particular thing because I was like,
I could do like a weekend retreat or a week
long retreat, and then I was like, we could also
do this other thing where it's like a retreat and
(10:19):
ongoing community, where it's like I will create some containers
for you all to stay connected after the retreats. And
that was the thing that like most people came back
and they're like, if you can do like when does
it start? Like are we doing it next month? When
do we get into it? And so I think there
was both my gut feeling and then actually hearing from
(10:43):
clients who were like, yeah, no, that's actually that would
be great, and particularly from clients who were you know,
maybe they're seeing me once a month or maybe they
were done with therapy, who were saying I still need care,
and I really like that's something I would invest in
to take care of myself.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Differently, Yeah, well, I love starting out, you know, with
a retreat I've done. I'm a certified Daring Wave facilitator,
as you know, so I facilitate Brenee Brown's Shame Resilience curriculum,
the power of the group, right, just in general what
that does. And it's amazing the bonds that can be
(11:20):
formed in such a short amount of time. But I
think one thing that was often missing is that continuity
of care. Right. You have this amazing experience where you
feel bonded, you learned a lot, and you're all gung ho,
and then sometimes there's not this sort of plan for after.
So I think it's amazing that you offer that, and
I'm sure people are so grateful for it. So let's
(11:44):
talk about maybe the pros and cons of creating groups
and retreats for very specific demographics. You know, you mentioned
black women or women of color for the Compassion collected,
but also women's groups versus WED groups. What are your
thoughts about that?
Speaker 3 (12:02):
No, I think there's a time and a place and
a value for both. I think in this particular kind
of moment of time there and maybe in all of
modern history this is probably true. We're just sort of
acutely aware. But I do think creating some space that
people talk about safe spaces, but I think being actually
(12:24):
intentional about creating curating spaces that can hold all of
a particular population's experiences. And so, you know, as the
example I was talking about, you know, like I have
all these black women that I work with who it's
not that they won't go on other retreats or participate
in other women's groups, but there is a piece of
(12:44):
their experience that is not front and center. And so
I think that that's and I think that's not just
unique to black women. You know, I think about it
actually quite a bit lately for men as an example,
in there are some unique things to that experience that
in a group that is most likely going to be
(13:05):
more heavily women, just because of the way that we
kind of attract people to groups and retreats that can
men find the safety to express their full experiences and
be supported in that. And that's really where I kind
of came from. So I think that from a clinician
facilitator perspective, it's really thinking about also like where is
(13:28):
your what sort of your special gift or your passion
and then kind of deciding and for me at that
moment in this time, it's like, well, this is kind
of what I want to be able to do. There's
something very particular happening I think for black women, particularly
for professional black women, right now, that there isn't a
(13:48):
place to go and then build the social community that
they need to feel cared for over the long haul.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
I will say in my experience of doing you know, weekends,
people always say, are you going to do a co
ed daring greatly? And I'm not. And I've done them
for men and I've done them for women, And I
ask folks, what do you think if you know men
were here, And each one of them said absolutely not,
And again not because they don't love men or appreciate men,
(14:20):
but they would have it would have changed their experience
and they would have limited their vulnerability. And I'm sure
that you're all about vulnerability on these weekends.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
Yeah, you know it really I always it's one of
the first things I say, you know, on the first
day of retreat is really being intentional about thanking people
and acknowledging there's vulnerability in just showing up. It just
registered like coming into a space with a bunch of
people you don't know where the intention is in fact
(14:53):
to be vulnerable. It is to share parts of yourself
that you are not sharing in other relationships or in
other areas of your life. That's a huge ask. And
so I do think that you know, as somebody who's
facilitating a holding that space, I have to really think
about that. What are we working on? And then how
do I curate a space that makes that a safe
(15:15):
environment for everyone who shows up? And sometimes it is
just very specific to demographics.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Absolutely, So what sort of skills do you think are
really essential for creating that safety? How do you do that?
I mean the container we talk about, how do you
do that? Right away?
Speaker 3 (15:35):
Yeah, you know, I think some of us have a
gift for it. I think it's important to just sort
of like name that, like I love that for you,
and I mean I know you to like, I think
you have a gift for holding space when you do
daring what like there is a piece of it that
is I don't say it's like magic, but we all
know where we have that. And I think it's useful
(15:59):
to name so for people, you know, if you are
a clinician and you're thinking maybe i'll run groups, maybe
I'll like check in to make sure first of all
that that even just feels like something that you could do,
and then there I do think there are obviously some
like very specific skills, and I think one of them
is I love Prea. Parker's book The Art of Gathering,
(16:20):
But in there, one of the first things she talks
about is like creating the space right around a particular intention.
Also to term like is partially based on how who
we invite like, And so I think a comfort level
in including and excluding and kind of being clear about
(16:41):
what that car like being able to get very clear.
And I don't know that all of us that that's
a skill that we can develop to really be clear,
Like if my intention for the retreat at the end
is X, then what are the criteria on the front
end about like who attends, what kind of therapy experience
they have to have? So I think having clear criteria
(17:03):
at the beginning is really an important skill that doesn't
always happen. Sometimes it's just kind of like, oh, let's
do you know, it's a wellness thing, and that's fine,
but if we're doing some sort of therapeutic deep to
emotional work, we need to be more specific. So I
think creating some really specific criteria around that is important.
(17:23):
I think an attention to actual set and setting. Partially
I love those things, but I am big on like
and there's research to support it. Like the space that
you're in, what does it feel like when you're there?
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Are we in like.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
A windowless hotel conference room or are we on an
expansive horse of state with you know, lots of trees
and windows and opportunity to sit outside in the grass.
And because the environment also influences what the experience is
going to be like, not just from a standpoint of
like I just want luxury, but from the standpoint of again,
(18:02):
what are we facilitating. If we're talking about rest and
can self compassion, then does the space itself and the
smaller details facilitate that experience for people? Recognizing that sometimes
it's hard for people to get there anyway, If you
are most of the people I work are busy. They
(18:22):
are constantly making decisions, their phone is never off, they're
never not checking emails. I need to facilitate an actual
environment that says you don't have to think about what
we're going to eat, you don't have to think about
what you can put your phone down, you can go sit,
you can go do nothing. And then I think, you know,
really just I think an intentionality around what is it
(18:45):
that you're trying to give people is to me one
of the most important factors.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
And I'm curious during the compassion Collective weekends, how much
sort of movement or nature you end and you know,
does that then I'm thinking you do breathwork? Is there yoga?
Speaker 3 (19:06):
So I I'm not a yoga instructor, so there's not
always yoga, although I do. I am a meditation teacher,
so most days I will offer yoga nidra, but by
the time we get to the end of the day,
nobody wants like everyone's like, sure, can I get a
recording that I can take back to bed, Like I
want to go lad day, like I'm tired, But I
(19:27):
do I encourage. I create a schedule that leaves a
lot of space, so there is always morning meditation, but
usually we try to start a little bit later. So
like people who just want a quiet walk, I always
pick properties where you can go walk, go outside, go
for a long walk, go for a hike. Then we'll
(19:48):
do meditation. I will typically if if I'm not bringing
someone in to actually do yoga and like a very
structured kind of movement, then we will do a lot
of things where I'm like, okay, well, sessions outside even
in the winter, I'm like, let's go, let's let's go
sit out in the snow. And then I've come to
(20:09):
incorporate a variety of other things that have either been
meaningful to me on retreats that I've gone to or
that I found. I tried it once and it really
worked well. So, like one good example is there is
almost always a fire ritual, So even in places where
there's not already a fireplace or a fire pit, I
have gotten very good at figuring out how to create that.
(20:32):
And so again we're outside, we're burning like. But I
think having some finding some flow around both movement and
nature is really, to me an important aspect of the process.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Yeah, and I don't know about you, but the longer
I practiced, the more I really questioning this. Why we
sit across from each other in a chair and don't
move for forty five or fifty minutes. It's just feeling
like the body is so much a part of all
of the work.
Speaker 3 (21:01):
Yeah, I love that. I think that's such a useful
question for us to I'll be asking just generally in
our day to day work. You know, I have a
couple of clients where periodically we'll do walking sessions. Uh huh,
you know, we'll meet and we'll you know, I'll meet
them at you know, some part like and just walk
and talk. And how different that experience is, or even
(21:22):
having one of the joys of you know, meeting virtually
is being like, go sit on your balcony, go sit
on your deck, right like you can be in nature
while we do this, and how different sometimes the work becomes.
And so it definitely is a big part of what
I try to do on retreats as well.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
So last thing is what's your dream and your vision
for the future of compassion collective retreats and then sort
of communal care in general.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
You know, I find myself incredibly inspired by devoted to
this idea of communal care and how do you weave
that into the work that we do as therapists and
a really in a more permanent way, you know, I
hear a lot of more people talking about being in community,
but like, how do we actually build that into our structure?
(22:13):
So I think about this a lot, specifically for the
Compassion Collective retreats. I really want to grow not only
the retreats, which you know, a five day retreat takes
me quite a bit of time and energy to prep,
but to move to a place where we're also doing
some one day workshops and other so that it is
(22:33):
an evolving and growing place of communal care, so that
eventually even people who may not be able to go
and retreat, let's say this year, have some opportunities to
begin to engage with the community and feel held there.
I think my longer term dream that I keep thinking
about is, you know, going back to the need for
spaces for different people to show up, is does this
(22:56):
evolve at some point to including other kinds of retreats,
retreats for couples, retreats for men, you know, retreats for
therapists and physicians. Like I think all of us are
in need of a place that kind of holds us
with compassion and cultivates our self compassion. And so just
thinking a lot about how I can kind of grow
(23:17):
and evolve to make more and more spaces and learning
that I can create a container and then it becomes
self sustaining. Not really that I have to like hold
all of it, but can I invite people in and
let other people then find their way forward to you know,
make it a sustaining connection and community.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
I have no doubt that you will be able to
do all of those things. So Esther, thank you so
much for being here today. It was fun to interview
you in a more professional way. I think we I
sort of interview all when we get together. We're just
real intense and so this was this was fun. So
(23:59):
thank you to Esther Boykin again. You can follow her
on Instagram and go to Esterboykin dot com. And my
name is Brooke Braylove and I'm signing off as the
guest host for The Trauma Therapist. Thanks so much, thank you,
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