September 2, 2025 • 31 mins
Christina Kantzavelos is a neurodivergent, and first-generation (third culture) Licensed Clinical Social Worker (LCSW), life coach, writer and chronic illness warrior. She received both her BA and MSW from the University of California Los Angeles (UCLA) and her MLIS from San Jose State University (SJSU).
Charmaine Husum RCAT, RTC, CT, DKATI, runs a private Art Therapy and Counselling practice (Centre of the Heart) on the traditional territories of the Blackfoot Confederacy (Siksika, Kainai, Piikani), the Tsuut'ina, the Îyâxe Nakoda Nations, and the Métis people of Calgary Alberta, Canada, seeing clients in person and online both regionally and internationally. She is also an Artist, Kundalini Yoga teacher and trained in the somatic approach of Integrative Body Psychotherapy and Reiki.
In This Episode
You can learn more about what I do here:
The Trauma Therapist Newsletter: celebrates the people and voices in the mental health profession. And it's free! Check it out here: https://bit.ly/4jGBeSa
The Trauma Therapist Podcast: I interview thought-leaders in the fields of trauma, mindfulness, addiction and yoga such as Peter Levine, Pat Ogden, Bessel van der Kolk and Bruce Perry. https://bit.ly/3VRNy8z
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-trauma-therapist--5739761/support.
Charmaine Husum RCAT, RTC, CT, DKATI, runs a private Art Therapy and Counselling practice (Centre of the Heart) on the traditional territories of the Blackfoot Confederacy (Siksika, Kainai, Piikani), the Tsuut'ina, the Îyâxe Nakoda Nations, and the Métis people of Calgary Alberta, Canada, seeing clients in person and online both regionally and internationally. She is also an Artist, Kundalini Yoga teacher and trained in the somatic approach of Integrative Body Psychotherapy and Reiki.
In This Episode
You can learn more about what I do here:
The Trauma Therapist Newsletter: celebrates the people and voices in the mental health profession. And it's free! Check it out here: https://bit.ly/4jGBeSa
The Trauma Therapist Podcast: I interview thought-leaders in the fields of trauma, mindfulness, addiction and yoga such as Peter Levine, Pat Ogden, Bessel van der Kolk and Bruce Perry. https://bit.ly/3VRNy8z
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-trauma-therapist--5739761/support.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the special guest host series of the Trauma
Theverst podcast, where I'm going to be handing over the
mic to some incredible guest hosts. In each episode, you'll
hear fresh perspectives and unique insights to inform and inspire
you in all the while keeping the heart of this
podcast alive. So sit back and enjoy.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Hey Charmaine, Hi Christina, so lovely to be here with
you today.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
Yeah, I'm thrilled to have you on here for folks
listening or watching to hear what tools and resources you.
Speaker 4 (00:31):
Offer, including your new book.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
But before we share all of that, please let us
know about your practice and how it evolved into what
it is today.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Yeah. Well, I'm a registered art therapist and somatic counselor.
I work with people to support them in healing from
symptoms of trauma as well as depression, anxiety, and one
of the areas that I focus in or ways to
support both the preparation and integration of psychedelic experiences or
(01:06):
non ordinary states of any kind. So the way that
my practice evolved really was from a lot of my
own personal experiences, a lot of different influences that have
been a part of my life like meditation, sound healing.
I'm a Kundlina yoga teacher. Indigenous traditions that I've been
(01:27):
trained in also really add to what I offer. Other
areas I'm trained in as internal family systems, transpersonal psychology.
So these are all pieces that I incorporate into my
work with others.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
Amazing And for those who don't know what are non
ordinary states?
Speaker 4 (01:50):
If you were to just say.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Yeah, well, non ordinary states like we're talking about psychedelics,
really here in ways to support a psychedelic journey to
be long lasting. But it's not necessarily that we're needing
to use a psychedelic to get to this place of
needing integration. So non ordinary states could be using breathwork
(02:14):
like holotropic breath work, or it could be having a
Kundalini awakening. Deep transformative meditations can bring us to a
non ordinary state or an ecstatic state. Ecstatic dance can
be another one near death experiences, and interestingly enough, even
the act of creating art can bring one into a
(02:36):
non ordinary state. So a non ordinary state is basically
any state of consciousness that is different from our waking reality,
and it can mean a lot of things. For a
lot of people. But the potential for healing is huge
if we are able to properly integrate these experiences.
Speaker 4 (02:54):
Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
Thank you for that beautiful, perfect explanation, because so often
we associate that with strictly psychedelics, and that isn't the
only route for us to get to get to that state.
And even without psychedelics, it's so important to have, in
my opinion, that assisted therapy piece attached to it, right,
(03:17):
because to help us understand, prepare, integrate what comes up
during and afterwards, even before things can come up before
we even enter into that state.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
So thank you absolutely, And I just want to say
oftentimes people may feel called through their dreams or through
meditations to these states, right if they're using a specific medicine,
or there could be some information coming to the surface
before one actually has a non ordinary state. That is
(03:51):
kind of a just a prelude into what will be experiencing.
Speaker 4 (03:55):
So amen, Amen, I know I personally had that as well.
I'm sure too, right.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Yeah, And you know one thing that we often don't
talk about, something that I incorporate into the work I do,
is we experience non ordinary states every night when we
go to sleep with our dreams. So having a relationship
to our dreams understanding what they might mean for us
can be another non ordinary state that we can utilize.
Speaker 4 (04:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:23):
Yeah, And I think for me it's been life changing
to get a dream journal, like to really create a
relationship with my dreams. And in fact, you know, as
we as we the more we journal, I think, the
more we remember our dreams and details, and it's such
a it can be such a beautiful insight into what
(04:45):
we're experiencing and letting us see it from a different perspective.
And you offer courses correct, yea, at this time, can
you tell us more about them?
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Yeah. I've been training professionals and experiencers on ways to
utilize therapeutic creative techniques to support preparation and integration for
maybe the last seven years. I've been offering these courses.
I have another one coming up here September twenty second,
which really trains people, but teaches people, whether you're a
(05:22):
professional or someone who's experienced a non ordinary state or
using a psychedelic goes through specific protocols on ways that
we can incorporate art and art therapy into our integration
and preparation in order to support us, So yeah, it's
I think it's important to name too. There's a difference
(05:43):
between making art, which can feel very therapeutic, and art therapy.
So art therapy is something that is offered by someone
trained as an art therapist, which requires postgraduate education a
master's agree in art therapy, and so it's we're using
(06:03):
clinical approaches with creative processes. So yeah, I feel like
there's a myths there in psychedelic assisted therapy where the
creation or the utilization of therapeutic art really enhances the
(06:24):
experience for it to be long lasting.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
M This is a random question, but how do you
feel about experiencers using art during an experience?
Speaker 2 (06:42):
If it's available to them, it can be very powerful,
and I've heard trying that I don't. My experience has
been and those that I work with is that. And
also the research is that it's not very accessible right
when we are in a non ordinary state or when
we're under the influence of a psychedelic to use the
(07:04):
art materials themselves. But what is extremely supportive is to
use art therapy or have an art therapy session before
one's experience and then taking that art into their journey.
So when we're using art in this way, what we're
doing is we are taking pieces from our unconscious and
(07:27):
from within us and moving them outside of us now.
So now we have something tangible, something we can look
at and hold and feel and remember as we move
into our journey. So an activity I do with people
I work with is in preparation, and I do this
with most of my clients that I'm working with to
(07:49):
heal traumas. We are creating a tangible representation of what
healing feels like inside, about what safety feels like inside.
So I may use language depending on who I'm working with,
you know, creating an image of our soul or our essence.
So we do this in combination with guided meditation, and
(08:14):
then I invite one to create what they felt in
that meditation that connects them to their self energy. And
this has been super very powerful for ones moving into
their journey. So now they have a representation of what
strength feels like inside, what safety feels like inside. And
what it does is it just allows them to go
(08:36):
deeper into their psychedelic journey because they have within them
this sense of safety, right, because it can be really
difficult moving into these experiences. Really we're pulled out of ourselves,
So how can we remain in our body?
Speaker 3 (08:54):
I completely agree with that, and I've been on the
receiving end of it, and I can just tell everyone
how amazing and powerful and beautiful it is, because yeah,
we do. We do have that safety within us. It's
it's a matter of really recognizing it, seeing it, feeling it,
to be able to access it during right during that
state and even just out in the world in a stressful,
(09:17):
you know, situation. Before we hopped on, I was just saying, like,
how you know, I've been in a semi stressful situation,
and you know, Charmaine has provided me with tools that
I've been able to access through through these exercises, So
even without being in a you know, non ordinary state,
I can I can also say that confidently say it's
also helped these stressful states as well, because we have that,
(09:40):
like I said, that that place of strengthen of peace
within ourselves that we can we can access if needed.
It's just a matter of us connecting, really connecting to it.
And and gosh, the art. I mean, I've gotten to
see some of some of the art.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
From folks who've worked with you too.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
It's just it's all you know, it's it's across the
born and it's also like just fascinating.
Speaker 4 (10:03):
Interesting, cool, beautiful.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
I mean, you can attribute a bunch of different words
to it. So yeah, what what you do is really
fascinating and what you offer. So with the courses though,
you don't have do you have to be a clinician
in order to take the courses?
Speaker 2 (10:22):
No, okay, doesn't have to be a clinician. The courses
are I have some different courses, some are on demand
that incorporate a lot more guendolina, yoga and meditations, sacred geometry,
and so I find that those courses can be really
supportive for those wanting to move through something on their own.
(10:46):
So they are a little more geared towards one who's
had an experience and then is wanting to move forward
with learning those techniques and protocols on their own. The
live courses that I teach, I've been teaching through the
New York Therapy Institute, and those ones have been focused
more towards clinicians, doctors, psychologists, guides, psychedelic guides, but we
(11:15):
also have some people sign up that are ready for
that that are experiencers. Right, So yeah, anyone can take
those courses, but they're intended to really teach those specific
protocols on using a harm reduction lens too. Right, That's
a huge focus of my work is both trauma informed
(11:35):
and a harm reduction lens, but teaching people to use
these protocols and tools so they're not going back to
the medicine over and over again. So they're really instilling
in both preparation and integration that sense of the healer
being within right, So using a trans personal psychology language,
(11:57):
there that inner healer. And so when we're able to
identify that that is inside of us, the medicine that
we took, the energy of that is now inside of us,
or the experience we had, we can access that experience energetically.
We're able to utilize those tools moving forward in life.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
M Yeah, And I think that's the the importance of
that therapeutic component. When we decide to sit with a medicine,
it's like, how do we integrate that experience in our
day to day living so we don't feel this this
you know, constant need, I must go back to the
met in order to experience this, I must go back
(12:40):
to the medicine. Creating this sort of dependency that we
sometimes sometimes hear about. It's not too often, but sometimes
we hear about it, and this helps us remember, like
that what it showed us is within us forever.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Yeah I wanted to say there, or sorry, go ahead, no,
go ahead, go ahead? Yeah, you know, you know, we
know or you know we hear that psychedelics are not addictive,
and they are not because you need the more you take,
the more you would need, right, And so what is
(13:17):
addictive though, is looking for heightened experiences or looking outside
of ourselves for healing. And so because what I find
is that the medicines and non ordinary states as well,
but they can really bring trauma to the surface. And
so it's so important to be holding that trauma informed
(13:37):
lens each step of the way as we're working through
our journey, because it's we never know what might come up,
and especially in using art in this way our therapy,
we're also trusting that our psyche protects us. It's only
going to bring up what we are ready to hold
and handle. The medicines are as gentle always right, they
(14:00):
can bring things up that we may not have expected,
and so it's really that container we hold afterwards that
supports the longer healing, agreed.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
And I think the resourcing that you do in advance
as well with that nervous system component and like you said,
finding that piece inside so that if these things come up,
it's like yes, you know, yes, this is challenging and
I have the strength to be with it, to move
through it, to feel it, to heal it.
Speaker 4 (14:30):
Yeah, all of all of those, all of those things.
Speaker 3 (14:34):
And you know you mentioned sacred geometry earlier, So for
those who may not be familiar with sacred geometry, can
you speak to so even you know have written about
it and that will lead us actually to your books
as well.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Yeah. Yeah, So sacred geometry is it's close to my heart.
It's something that I enjoy engaging in artistically. It's not
something I would always I would necessarily bring into an
art therapy session because it can be difficult for some.
But I do find sacred geometry is something that seems
(15:12):
inherently connected to psychedelics. Right if you look at the
work of Alex Gray or Martina Hoffman or you know,
some of these psychedelic artists, a lot of the imagery
reflects things that may be seen, visuals that people may
have while they're in a psychedelic state. But really, what
sacred geometry is is this kind of inherent wisdom of
(15:35):
nature for life to survive and thrive. We see it everywhere.
We are geometrical beings. Our DNA is geometric. We see
it in plants, in flowers, in trees, right, they are
designed in order for water to move to their roots
in the fastest way possible. And so yeah, there's many
(15:58):
different forms of sacred geometry, many different like actual images.
If we look at the flower of life or Metatron's
cube or pie or a Fibonacci sequence, there's there's many
different images we can look at. But I find it
powerful as a tool even to look at, right, So
not necessarily creating, but drawing or sorry of coloring it in,
(16:22):
or or just looking at an image of sacred geometry
can be powerful in a way that there's a language
being spoken in that medicine that I think reaches us
on a cellular level. So that's my own personal piece
of that. It's not always something I bring into my
therapeutic work.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
Yeah, yeah, but you're right, even just just looking at
it is super to me, healing and powerful like a
honeycomb for example, I mean you just I could just
watch it for hours of different flowers. I mean everything.
Sacred geometry is in everything. It is is everywhere. It's
a matter of how we how we view, how we see,
(17:03):
and I feel like connecting with it in this way
helps us connect, you know, to nature, and connect to
ourselves something.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
The name with that too is the importance. So I
feel that art or and therapeutic art is is fundamentally
important in this work that we do, but as is meditation.
And so when I use sacred geometry in meditation, I
you know, just looking at an image with a softened gaze,
(17:34):
there's different lines that maybe appear brighter and then others soften.
And I love the work of Robin Carhart Harris right
and the correlations that he's made here with between what's
happening in the brain and the default mode network going offline.
How we see that when people meditate, we see that
(17:55):
when people are using psychedelics, but we also see that
when we're making art in the brain. And I would
like for the research to be done on this correlation,
right that it feels like something's amiss here. Why are
we not including art in this process of psychedelic assisted therapy.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
Yeah, let's let's bring KRT onto on here and have
a discussion. Yeah, because it's true, right, yeah, yeah, yeah,
great question. And I hope I hope it does happen.
I think, Yeah, there's there's so much to say about
art and there's so little research giving us providing us
(18:35):
this information.
Speaker 4 (18:35):
I mean, I can feel it sensationally, so can you.
But it'd be nice to have research backing it up
and going nope.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
This is this is why, this is why it works,
that is why it's so it is so therapeutic and powerful.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
That's more research coming to the surface. I'm so grateful
for that. Even you know, my book is is there's
a ton of research in in my newest book, Psychedelics
and Art Therapy. But yeah, more MRI functional MRIs need
to be done about you know, what is happening in
the brain and why is there this connection between meditation, psychedelics,
(19:11):
and art therapy, and how can we utilize all of
those to really feel safer when we move into these
medicine journeys, because that's what is happening for those using
all three of these components.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
Yeah, yeah, amen, And again, working with you do you
do combine all of it together, so hence why your
sessions are so powerful, And we'll get to those in
a moment, but I want to go back to the book.
Speaker 4 (19:39):
Can you tell us more about your latest book?
Speaker 2 (19:42):
Yeah, yeah, my latest book, Psychedelics and Art Therapy, a
trama for manual for somatic self Discovery, published through Routledge.
It's just been this labor of love, right, all of
my work in research over the last it's been twelve
years already that I've been working in this field with
a focus on using art, therapeutic art to support preparation
(20:05):
and integration. Yeah, it's uh, it's been a joy to create,
and I'm super grateful for all the endorsements. I know,
is Stan Groff endorsed it, Brigitte Graf, Bruce, No big
deal because I know I'm like, what these guys lib
all on the same page. And also I'm loving, you know,
(20:27):
the work of Brigitte Graf too. I don't think that's
spoken about enough and her her book on holotropic art
is just amazing. So yeah, it's been a joy creating it.
What I've done in the book is really the first
half focused on different theory that can support people in
learning about ways to use art within psychedelics, I too.
(20:54):
And then the second part is is actual activities, art
activity and meditations that I recommend kind of more of
a manual for people to move through those nine different
protocols I've created. But what's different about my work, I
find is the lens I take with what I teach
(21:18):
really has a strong harm reduction focus to it. I
believe that the medicines are powerful, but I'm not an
advocate for people to use illegal drugs. They're illegal in
many places, and so I don't advocate for that. What
I advocate for is working towards developing and strengthening that
(21:38):
connection to self, that connection to a spirit within ourselves.
And so in the book, I speak a lot about
the shadow sides too of this work. And really what
brought me to feeling comfortable enough to come forward with
the work I do, because that's whole other piece, right,
(22:01):
is that we've been moving through this psychedelic renaissance and
these medicines are illegal in a lot of places, and
so what kind of pushed me to want to share
what I was doing in a larger format with a
published book is a friend of mine dying after using
(22:21):
these medicines and then another colleague dying both from suicide.
And so what I see with the clients I work
with as well, is that because I work with trauma,
so many are going to these medicines as this magic bullet,
like this is going to be it, This is finally
going to heal me or help me heal from symptoms
of trauma. I don't believe that it is a magic bullet.
(22:45):
Maybe for some it's been, and that's fantastic, But in
order to properly hold spaces for people as therapists, I
think we really need to recognize the importance of proper
preparation and integration and have those in place for our
clients before we're moving, before one is moving into a journey,
(23:05):
because it can be very destabilizing if one hasn't had
the proper support or done the work needed beforehand.
Speaker 4 (23:14):
Amen.
Speaker 3 (23:15):
Amen, I think like we we have this tendency to
romanticize the just plant medicine and psychedelics in general, and
we don't think of, you know, all all of the
things that can that can happen and have happened, and
the importance of that assisted therapy component, like what that's
(23:38):
why it's so important and ensuring that we have the
vessel to be able to hold what comes up if
in when, if and when it does. And I don't
feel very dissimilar about things like em E, M, d
R and other modalities. Right when we go into them
too soon without the preparation, the resourceing, the nervous system support,
(24:02):
things can also arise right that we're not exactly ready for.
So it's just as I think as clinicians like who
are who are listening and watching right now, really knowing
and under and understanding that is vital for the for
the safety of the client, the patient you are working.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
With, absolutely, yeah, and something that you know, kind of
coming back to that art directive I spoke of at
the beginning, where you know, we're tapping into that sense
of safety and then creating an image of that. Really,
you know, the idea of that is understanding the difference
between a trauma var text and a healing vortext And
(24:44):
I believe it's Peter Levine speaks about this right that
we really need to create and know what does a
healing vortex feel like in our body? What does it
feel like to be in that? So then we can
dip our toes into the traumatic piece, but we're not
being sucked into the vortex of that. And psychedelics especially
(25:06):
are not always gentle and they can pull us into that.
And so yeah, clinicians supporting clients, we need to be
aware of that and and aware of how do we
create the healing vortex before the potential of a trauma
vortex is it comes to the surface.
Speaker 3 (25:25):
Amen, Amen, Amen, amen, Yeah, thank you, thank you for that,
and thank you for writing about that in the book,
and for for clinicians more interested in your work. Where
can they Where can they find the book? Where can
they find your courses?
Speaker 4 (25:46):
Where can they consult you?
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Yeah? On my website is probably the best place. Center
of the Heart dot com spelled c N t R E,
not e R, and all the links for my work
are there.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
This book is published through Routledge, so there's a link
on my website to that, but you can also find
that on Routledge's website. My other book Sacred Geometry and
actually let me.
Speaker 4 (26:15):
Grab it, ring it, show it off.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
Yeah, I think this is an older version, but anyway,
Sacred Geometry Visionary Art is uh, my other book, so
that can be found on Amazon, and yeah, both are
are intended just to support connecting to ourselves, connecting to spirit,
connecting to the medicine or to our experience in a
(26:42):
way that we're able to thrive in life right that
we're not we're not just surviving.
Speaker 4 (26:49):
That's that's the goal.
Speaker 3 (26:51):
And I also want to say that with the coloring book,
like such a beautiful mindfulness tool and exercise. So if
you're looking for more mindful next activities, you want to
turn to a.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Page I do. Yeah, and this is one of the
preliminary ones that was sent to me. But so it
doesn't have everything, but let's see, yees, I took the
colors out of all of my artwork and then created
these images to be colored, and they're all based on
different sacred geometry images the Chakras. There's meditations to go
(27:25):
with it. And then in the other version of the book,
I included all of the original pictures as well, So
the ones you see at the background, this one doesn't
have it in it, but yeah, so you can cut
those out and use them as a tool for meditation
as well.
Speaker 3 (27:42):
So so cool, really amazing. And then for clients interested
in working with you, they can also find you right
on your website and also shout out to the fact
that you meet with us for ninety minutes, right, it's
not just an hour. Can you just share little bit
about why ninety minutes instead of the arbitrary sixty minutes.
(28:04):
So many therapists, I'm like, you, we go over, but
why do you do it?
Speaker 4 (28:09):
What's your reason?
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Yeah, it's a good question that comes up a lot
with people when you know they could be surprised by that.
But really it's because of my own experience is in
therapy where I just feel like we're opening things up
at sixty minutes. Because I work with attachment as well,
which is also a big part of my book Psychedelics
and Art Therapy and the process of integration, I feel
(28:33):
like it's important to have that extra time right and space,
and so I just include that in the same price
that I would charge people for an hour, because it
helps me too to go deeper with clients and support
support whatever is needed. But I feel it's important when
we're working with trauma especially, and attachment is usually a
(28:54):
part of that, reparenting that we're given that extra time
to support healing.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
I cannot agree any anymore. In that I just I
think like the lot of a lot of the stuff
comes out's like we finally got over what happened in
the last you know, a week or two weeks since
I last you know, met with them, and we really
get into and get into the things at that hour
mark usually so and it's better also, I think you
(29:23):
basically so it's for my nervous system for us to
not feel like rushed or saying that thought or feeling
for for next time, because we usually never do.
Speaker 4 (29:33):
We usually never do.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
I sat on both sides right of the couch, so
to speak, and I know, I know how that goes.
So thank you for that, and I think it's good
for other clinicians to hear on that perspective as well. So, yeah, Charry,
thank you for coming on here and sharing your vast
amount of knowledge and wisdom with us. Is there one,
(29:56):
like one takeaway for for listeners or viewers that you'd
like to share?
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Yeah, a huge takeaway or something that I'd like to offer.
And maybe you know people have heard this in other spaces,
But the medicine is within you. The power is within
you to heal, to expand, and psychedelics in particular they
open up a window for us, and it's an amazing
(30:24):
window that opens. But it's the work we do afterwards
in walking through that and preparing ourselves for that, which
create lasting healing.
Speaker 4 (30:35):
Thank you, thank you so much. I'm taking that in
as well.
Speaker 3 (30:39):
And thank you to all who've come on here to
listen and to watch. And yeah, I've been so open
minded about this conversation.
Speaker 4 (30:49):
We appreciate you. Thank you again, Charmaine, my pleasure.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
Thank you, Christine. Yeah, thank you guys here today.
Speaker 4 (30:58):
All right, lots of love everyone one, take care
Welcome to the special guest host series of the Trauma
Theverst podcast, where I'm going to be handing over the
mic to some incredible guest hosts. In each episode, you'll
hear fresh perspectives and unique insights to inform and inspire
you in all the while keeping the heart of this
podcast alive. So sit back and enjoy.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Hey Charmaine, Hi Christina, so lovely to be here with
you today.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
Yeah, I'm thrilled to have you on here for folks
listening or watching to hear what tools and resources you.
Speaker 4 (00:31):
Offer, including your new book.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
But before we share all of that, please let us
know about your practice and how it evolved into what
it is today.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Yeah. Well, I'm a registered art therapist and somatic counselor.
I work with people to support them in healing from
symptoms of trauma as well as depression, anxiety, and one
of the areas that I focus in or ways to
support both the preparation and integration of psychedelic experiences or
(01:06):
non ordinary states of any kind. So the way that
my practice evolved really was from a lot of my
own personal experiences, a lot of different influences that have
been a part of my life like meditation, sound healing.
I'm a Kundlina yoga teacher. Indigenous traditions that I've been
(01:27):
trained in also really add to what I offer. Other
areas I'm trained in as internal family systems, transpersonal psychology.
So these are all pieces that I incorporate into my
work with others.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
Amazing And for those who don't know what are non
ordinary states?
Speaker 4 (01:50):
If you were to just say.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Yeah, well, non ordinary states like we're talking about psychedelics,
really here in ways to support a psychedelic journey to
be long lasting. But it's not necessarily that we're needing
to use a psychedelic to get to this place of
needing integration. So non ordinary states could be using breathwork
(02:14):
like holotropic breath work, or it could be having a
Kundalini awakening. Deep transformative meditations can bring us to a
non ordinary state or an ecstatic state. Ecstatic dance can
be another one near death experiences, and interestingly enough, even
the act of creating art can bring one into a
(02:36):
non ordinary state. So a non ordinary state is basically
any state of consciousness that is different from our waking reality,
and it can mean a lot of things. For a
lot of people. But the potential for healing is huge
if we are able to properly integrate these experiences.
Speaker 4 (02:54):
Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
Thank you for that beautiful, perfect explanation, because so often
we associate that with strictly psychedelics, and that isn't the
only route for us to get to get to that state.
And even without psychedelics, it's so important to have, in
my opinion, that assisted therapy piece attached to it, right,
(03:17):
because to help us understand, prepare, integrate what comes up
during and afterwards, even before things can come up before
we even enter into that state.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
So thank you absolutely, And I just want to say
oftentimes people may feel called through their dreams or through
meditations to these states, right if they're using a specific medicine,
or there could be some information coming to the surface
before one actually has a non ordinary state. That is
(03:51):
kind of a just a prelude into what will be experiencing.
Speaker 4 (03:55):
So amen, Amen, I know I personally had that as well.
I'm sure too, right.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Yeah, And you know one thing that we often don't
talk about, something that I incorporate into the work I do,
is we experience non ordinary states every night when we
go to sleep with our dreams. So having a relationship
to our dreams understanding what they might mean for us
can be another non ordinary state that we can utilize.
Speaker 4 (04:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:23):
Yeah, And I think for me it's been life changing
to get a dream journal, like to really create a
relationship with my dreams. And in fact, you know, as
we as we the more we journal, I think, the
more we remember our dreams and details, and it's such
a it can be such a beautiful insight into what
(04:45):
we're experiencing and letting us see it from a different perspective.
And you offer courses correct, yea, at this time, can
you tell us more about them?
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Yeah. I've been training professionals and experiencers on ways to
utilize therapeutic creative techniques to support preparation and integration for
maybe the last seven years. I've been offering these courses.
I have another one coming up here September twenty second,
which really trains people, but teaches people, whether you're a
(05:22):
professional or someone who's experienced a non ordinary state or
using a psychedelic goes through specific protocols on ways that
we can incorporate art and art therapy into our integration
and preparation in order to support us, So yeah, it's
I think it's important to name too. There's a difference
(05:43):
between making art, which can feel very therapeutic, and art therapy.
So art therapy is something that is offered by someone
trained as an art therapist, which requires postgraduate education a
master's agree in art therapy, and so it's we're using
(06:03):
clinical approaches with creative processes. So yeah, I feel like
there's a myths there in psychedelic assisted therapy where the
creation or the utilization of therapeutic art really enhances the
(06:24):
experience for it to be long lasting.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
M This is a random question, but how do you
feel about experiencers using art during an experience?
Speaker 2 (06:42):
If it's available to them, it can be very powerful,
and I've heard trying that I don't. My experience has
been and those that I work with is that. And
also the research is that it's not very accessible right
when we are in a non ordinary state or when
we're under the influence of a psychedelic to use the
(07:04):
art materials themselves. But what is extremely supportive is to
use art therapy or have an art therapy session before
one's experience and then taking that art into their journey.
So when we're using art in this way, what we're
doing is we are taking pieces from our unconscious and
(07:27):
from within us and moving them outside of us now.
So now we have something tangible, something we can look
at and hold and feel and remember as we move
into our journey. So an activity I do with people
I work with is in preparation, and I do this
with most of my clients that I'm working with to
(07:49):
heal traumas. We are creating a tangible representation of what
healing feels like inside, about what safety feels like inside.
So I may use language depending on who I'm working with,
you know, creating an image of our soul or our essence.
So we do this in combination with guided meditation, and
(08:14):
then I invite one to create what they felt in
that meditation that connects them to their self energy. And
this has been super very powerful for ones moving into
their journey. So now they have a representation of what
strength feels like inside, what safety feels like inside. And
what it does is it just allows them to go
(08:36):
deeper into their psychedelic journey because they have within them
this sense of safety, right, because it can be really
difficult moving into these experiences. Really we're pulled out of ourselves,
So how can we remain in our body?
Speaker 3 (08:54):
I completely agree with that, and I've been on the
receiving end of it, and I can just tell everyone
how amazing and powerful and beautiful it is, because yeah,
we do. We do have that safety within us. It's
it's a matter of really recognizing it, seeing it, feeling it,
to be able to access it during right during that
state and even just out in the world in a stressful,
(09:17):
you know, situation. Before we hopped on, I was just saying, like,
how you know, I've been in a semi stressful situation,
and you know, Charmaine has provided me with tools that
I've been able to access through through these exercises, So
even without being in a you know, non ordinary state,
I can I can also say that confidently say it's
also helped these stressful states as well, because we have that,
(09:40):
like I said, that that place of strengthen of peace
within ourselves that we can we can access if needed.
It's just a matter of us connecting, really connecting to it.
And and gosh, the art. I mean, I've gotten to
see some of some of the art.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
From folks who've worked with you too.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
It's just it's all you know, it's it's across the
born and it's also like just fascinating.
Speaker 4 (10:03):
Interesting, cool, beautiful.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
I mean, you can attribute a bunch of different words
to it. So yeah, what what you do is really
fascinating and what you offer. So with the courses though,
you don't have do you have to be a clinician
in order to take the courses?
Speaker 2 (10:22):
No, okay, doesn't have to be a clinician. The courses
are I have some different courses, some are on demand
that incorporate a lot more guendolina, yoga and meditations, sacred geometry,
and so I find that those courses can be really
supportive for those wanting to move through something on their own.
(10:46):
So they are a little more geared towards one who's
had an experience and then is wanting to move forward
with learning those techniques and protocols on their own. The
live courses that I teach, I've been teaching through the
New York Therapy Institute, and those ones have been focused
more towards clinicians, doctors, psychologists, guides, psychedelic guides, but we
(11:15):
also have some people sign up that are ready for
that that are experiencers. Right, So yeah, anyone can take
those courses, but they're intended to really teach those specific
protocols on using a harm reduction lens too. Right, That's
a huge focus of my work is both trauma informed
(11:35):
and a harm reduction lens, but teaching people to use
these protocols and tools so they're not going back to
the medicine over and over again. So they're really instilling
in both preparation and integration that sense of the healer
being within right, So using a trans personal psychology language,
(11:57):
there that inner healer. And so when we're able to
identify that that is inside of us, the medicine that
we took, the energy of that is now inside of us,
or the experience we had, we can access that experience energetically.
We're able to utilize those tools moving forward in life.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
M Yeah, And I think that's the the importance of
that therapeutic component. When we decide to sit with a medicine,
it's like, how do we integrate that experience in our
day to day living so we don't feel this this
you know, constant need, I must go back to the
met in order to experience this, I must go back
(12:40):
to the medicine. Creating this sort of dependency that we
sometimes sometimes hear about. It's not too often, but sometimes
we hear about it, and this helps us remember, like
that what it showed us is within us forever.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Yeah I wanted to say there, or sorry, go ahead, no,
go ahead, go ahead? Yeah, you know, you know, we
know or you know we hear that psychedelics are not addictive,
and they are not because you need the more you take,
the more you would need, right, And so what is
(13:17):
addictive though, is looking for heightened experiences or looking outside
of ourselves for healing. And so because what I find
is that the medicines and non ordinary states as well,
but they can really bring trauma to the surface. And
so it's so important to be holding that trauma informed
(13:37):
lens each step of the way as we're working through
our journey, because it's we never know what might come up,
and especially in using art in this way our therapy,
we're also trusting that our psyche protects us. It's only
going to bring up what we are ready to hold
and handle. The medicines are as gentle always right, they
(14:00):
can bring things up that we may not have expected,
and so it's really that container we hold afterwards that
supports the longer healing, agreed.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
And I think the resourcing that you do in advance
as well with that nervous system component and like you said,
finding that piece inside so that if these things come up,
it's like yes, you know, yes, this is challenging and
I have the strength to be with it, to move
through it, to feel it, to heal it.
Speaker 4 (14:30):
Yeah, all of all of those, all of those things.
Speaker 3 (14:34):
And you know you mentioned sacred geometry earlier, So for
those who may not be familiar with sacred geometry, can
you speak to so even you know have written about
it and that will lead us actually to your books
as well.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Yeah. Yeah, So sacred geometry is it's close to my heart.
It's something that I enjoy engaging in artistically. It's not
something I would always I would necessarily bring into an
art therapy session because it can be difficult for some.
But I do find sacred geometry is something that seems
(15:12):
inherently connected to psychedelics. Right if you look at the
work of Alex Gray or Martina Hoffman or you know,
some of these psychedelic artists, a lot of the imagery
reflects things that may be seen, visuals that people may
have while they're in a psychedelic state. But really, what
sacred geometry is is this kind of inherent wisdom of
(15:35):
nature for life to survive and thrive. We see it everywhere.
We are geometrical beings. Our DNA is geometric. We see
it in plants, in flowers, in trees, right, they are
designed in order for water to move to their roots
in the fastest way possible. And so yeah, there's many
(15:58):
different forms of sacred geometry, many different like actual images.
If we look at the flower of life or Metatron's
cube or pie or a Fibonacci sequence, there's there's many
different images we can look at. But I find it
powerful as a tool even to look at, right, So
not necessarily creating, but drawing or sorry of coloring it in,
(16:22):
or or just looking at an image of sacred geometry
can be powerful in a way that there's a language
being spoken in that medicine that I think reaches us
on a cellular level. So that's my own personal piece
of that. It's not always something I bring into my
therapeutic work.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
Yeah, yeah, but you're right, even just just looking at
it is super to me, healing and powerful like a
honeycomb for example, I mean you just I could just
watch it for hours of different flowers. I mean everything.
Sacred geometry is in everything. It is is everywhere. It's
a matter of how we how we view, how we see,
(17:03):
and I feel like connecting with it in this way
helps us connect, you know, to nature, and connect to
ourselves something.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
The name with that too is the importance. So I
feel that art or and therapeutic art is is fundamentally
important in this work that we do, but as is meditation.
And so when I use sacred geometry in meditation, I
you know, just looking at an image with a softened gaze,
(17:34):
there's different lines that maybe appear brighter and then others soften.
And I love the work of Robin Carhart Harris right
and the correlations that he's made here with between what's
happening in the brain and the default mode network going offline.
How we see that when people meditate, we see that
(17:55):
when people are using psychedelics, but we also see that
when we're making art in the brain. And I would
like for the research to be done on this correlation,
right that it feels like something's amiss here. Why are
we not including art in this process of psychedelic assisted therapy.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
Yeah, let's let's bring KRT onto on here and have
a discussion. Yeah, because it's true, right, yeah, yeah, yeah,
great question. And I hope I hope it does happen.
I think, Yeah, there's there's so much to say about
art and there's so little research giving us providing us
(18:35):
this information.
Speaker 4 (18:35):
I mean, I can feel it sensationally, so can you.
But it'd be nice to have research backing it up
and going nope.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
This is this is why, this is why it works,
that is why it's so it is so therapeutic and powerful.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
That's more research coming to the surface. I'm so grateful
for that. Even you know, my book is is there's
a ton of research in in my newest book, Psychedelics
and Art Therapy. But yeah, more MRI functional MRIs need
to be done about you know, what is happening in
the brain and why is there this connection between meditation, psychedelics,
(19:11):
and art therapy, and how can we utilize all of
those to really feel safer when we move into these
medicine journeys, because that's what is happening for those using
all three of these components.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
Yeah, yeah, amen, And again, working with you do you
do combine all of it together, so hence why your
sessions are so powerful, And we'll get to those in
a moment, but I want to go back to the book.
Speaker 4 (19:39):
Can you tell us more about your latest book?
Speaker 2 (19:42):
Yeah, yeah, my latest book, Psychedelics and Art Therapy, a
trama for manual for somatic self Discovery, published through Routledge.
It's just been this labor of love, right, all of
my work in research over the last it's been twelve
years already that I've been working in this field with
a focus on using art, therapeutic art to support preparation
(20:05):
and integration. Yeah, it's uh, it's been a joy to create,
and I'm super grateful for all the endorsements. I know,
is Stan Groff endorsed it, Brigitte Graf, Bruce, No big
deal because I know I'm like, what these guys lib
all on the same page. And also I'm loving, you know,
(20:27):
the work of Brigitte Graf too. I don't think that's
spoken about enough and her her book on holotropic art
is just amazing. So yeah, it's been a joy creating it.
What I've done in the book is really the first
half focused on different theory that can support people in
learning about ways to use art within psychedelics, I too.
(20:54):
And then the second part is is actual activities, art
activity and meditations that I recommend kind of more of
a manual for people to move through those nine different
protocols I've created. But what's different about my work, I
find is the lens I take with what I teach
(21:18):
really has a strong harm reduction focus to it. I
believe that the medicines are powerful, but I'm not an
advocate for people to use illegal drugs. They're illegal in
many places, and so I don't advocate for that. What
I advocate for is working towards developing and strengthening that
(21:38):
connection to self, that connection to a spirit within ourselves.
And so in the book, I speak a lot about
the shadow sides too of this work. And really what
brought me to feeling comfortable enough to come forward with
the work I do, because that's whole other piece, right,
(22:01):
is that we've been moving through this psychedelic renaissance and
these medicines are illegal in a lot of places, and
so what kind of pushed me to want to share
what I was doing in a larger format with a
published book is a friend of mine dying after using
(22:21):
these medicines and then another colleague dying both from suicide.
And so what I see with the clients I work
with as well, is that because I work with trauma,
so many are going to these medicines as this magic bullet,
like this is going to be it, This is finally
going to heal me or help me heal from symptoms
of trauma. I don't believe that it is a magic bullet.
(22:45):
Maybe for some it's been, and that's fantastic, But in
order to properly hold spaces for people as therapists, I
think we really need to recognize the importance of proper
preparation and integration and have those in place for our
clients before we're moving, before one is moving into a journey,
(23:05):
because it can be very destabilizing if one hasn't had
the proper support or done the work needed beforehand.
Speaker 4 (23:14):
Amen.
Speaker 3 (23:15):
Amen, I think like we we have this tendency to
romanticize the just plant medicine and psychedelics in general, and
we don't think of, you know, all all of the
things that can that can happen and have happened, and
the importance of that assisted therapy component, like what that's
(23:38):
why it's so important and ensuring that we have the
vessel to be able to hold what comes up if
in when, if and when it does. And I don't
feel very dissimilar about things like em E, M, d
R and other modalities. Right when we go into them
too soon without the preparation, the resourceing, the nervous system support,
(24:02):
things can also arise right that we're not exactly ready for.
So it's just as I think as clinicians like who
are who are listening and watching right now, really knowing
and under and understanding that is vital for the for
the safety of the client, the patient you are working.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
With, absolutely, yeah, and something that you know, kind of
coming back to that art directive I spoke of at
the beginning, where you know, we're tapping into that sense
of safety and then creating an image of that. Really,
you know, the idea of that is understanding the difference
between a trauma var text and a healing vortext And
(24:44):
I believe it's Peter Levine speaks about this right that
we really need to create and know what does a
healing vortex feel like in our body? What does it
feel like to be in that? So then we can
dip our toes into the traumatic piece, but we're not
being sucked into the vortex of that. And psychedelics especially
(25:06):
are not always gentle and they can pull us into that.
And so yeah, clinicians supporting clients, we need to be
aware of that and and aware of how do we
create the healing vortex before the potential of a trauma
vortex is it comes to the surface.
Speaker 3 (25:25):
Amen, Amen, Amen, amen, Yeah, thank you, thank you for that,
and thank you for writing about that in the book,
and for for clinicians more interested in your work. Where
can they Where can they find the book? Where can
they find your courses?
Speaker 4 (25:46):
Where can they consult you?
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Yeah? On my website is probably the best place. Center
of the Heart dot com spelled c N t R E,
not e R, and all the links for my work
are there.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
This book is published through Routledge, so there's a link
on my website to that, but you can also find
that on Routledge's website. My other book Sacred Geometry and
actually let me.
Speaker 4 (26:15):
Grab it, ring it, show it off.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
Yeah, I think this is an older version, but anyway,
Sacred Geometry Visionary Art is uh, my other book, so
that can be found on Amazon, and yeah, both are
are intended just to support connecting to ourselves, connecting to spirit,
connecting to the medicine or to our experience in a
(26:42):
way that we're able to thrive in life right that
we're not we're not just surviving.
Speaker 4 (26:49):
That's that's the goal.
Speaker 3 (26:51):
And I also want to say that with the coloring book,
like such a beautiful mindfulness tool and exercise. So if
you're looking for more mindful next activities, you want to
turn to a.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Page I do. Yeah, and this is one of the
preliminary ones that was sent to me. But so it
doesn't have everything, but let's see, yees, I took the
colors out of all of my artwork and then created
these images to be colored, and they're all based on
different sacred geometry images the Chakras. There's meditations to go
(27:25):
with it. And then in the other version of the book,
I included all of the original pictures as well, So
the ones you see at the background, this one doesn't
have it in it, but yeah, so you can cut
those out and use them as a tool for meditation
as well.
Speaker 3 (27:42):
So so cool, really amazing. And then for clients interested
in working with you, they can also find you right
on your website and also shout out to the fact
that you meet with us for ninety minutes, right, it's
not just an hour. Can you just share little bit
about why ninety minutes instead of the arbitrary sixty minutes.
(28:04):
So many therapists, I'm like, you, we go over, but
why do you do it?
Speaker 4 (28:09):
What's your reason?
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Yeah, it's a good question that comes up a lot
with people when you know they could be surprised by that.
But really it's because of my own experience is in
therapy where I just feel like we're opening things up
at sixty minutes. Because I work with attachment as well,
which is also a big part of my book Psychedelics
and Art Therapy and the process of integration, I feel
(28:33):
like it's important to have that extra time right and space,
and so I just include that in the same price
that I would charge people for an hour, because it
helps me too to go deeper with clients and support
support whatever is needed. But I feel it's important when
we're working with trauma especially, and attachment is usually a
(28:54):
part of that, reparenting that we're given that extra time
to support healing.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
I cannot agree any anymore. In that I just I
think like the lot of a lot of the stuff
comes out's like we finally got over what happened in
the last you know, a week or two weeks since
I last you know, met with them, and we really
get into and get into the things at that hour
mark usually so and it's better also, I think you
(29:23):
basically so it's for my nervous system for us to
not feel like rushed or saying that thought or feeling
for for next time, because we usually never do.
Speaker 4 (29:33):
We usually never do.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
I sat on both sides right of the couch, so
to speak, and I know, I know how that goes.
So thank you for that, and I think it's good
for other clinicians to hear on that perspective as well. So, yeah, Charry,
thank you for coming on here and sharing your vast
amount of knowledge and wisdom with us. Is there one,
(29:56):
like one takeaway for for listeners or viewers that you'd
like to share?
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Yeah, a huge takeaway or something that I'd like to offer.
And maybe you know people have heard this in other spaces,
But the medicine is within you. The power is within
you to heal, to expand, and psychedelics in particular they
open up a window for us, and it's an amazing
(30:24):
window that opens. But it's the work we do afterwards
in walking through that and preparing ourselves for that, which
create lasting healing.
Speaker 4 (30:35):
Thank you, thank you so much. I'm taking that in
as well.
Speaker 3 (30:39):
And thank you to all who've come on here to
listen and to watch. And yeah, I've been so open
minded about this conversation.
Speaker 4 (30:49):
We appreciate you. Thank you again, Charmaine, my pleasure.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
Thank you, Christine. Yeah, thank you guys here today.
Speaker 4 (30:58):
All right, lots of love everyone one, take care
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