July 24, 2025 • 28 mins
Susanne Babbel, originally from Germany, moved to the U.S. nearly 20 years ago. Known for her deep listening and insight, she was drawn to psychology through her own journey of personal growth. Her interest in the mind-body connection led her to study somatic psychology, earning master’s degrees from John F. Kennedy University and Santa Barbara Graduate Institute.
Maggie Kline, LMFT, has decades of experience as a school psychologist, family therapist, and Somatic Experiencing® faculty member. She’s co-authored Trauma Through a Child’s Eyes and Trauma-Proofing Your Kids with Peter Levine, and written extensively on trauma-informed care for children.
In This EpisodeYou can learn more about what I do here:
The Trauma Therapist Newsletter: celebrates the people and voices in the mental health profession. And it's free! Check it out here: https://bit.ly/4jGBeSa
The Trauma Therapist Podcast: I interview thought-leaders in the fields of trauma, mindfulness, addiction and yoga such as Peter Levine, Pat Ogden, Bessel van der Kolk and Bruce Perry. https://bit.ly/3VRNy8z
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-trauma-therapist--5739761/support.
Maggie Kline, LMFT, has decades of experience as a school psychologist, family therapist, and Somatic Experiencing® faculty member. She’s co-authored Trauma Through a Child’s Eyes and Trauma-Proofing Your Kids with Peter Levine, and written extensively on trauma-informed care for children.
In This EpisodeYou can learn more about what I do here:
The Trauma Therapist Newsletter: celebrates the people and voices in the mental health profession. And it's free! Check it out here: https://bit.ly/4jGBeSa
The Trauma Therapist Podcast: I interview thought-leaders in the fields of trauma, mindfulness, addiction and yoga such as Peter Levine, Pat Ogden, Bessel van der Kolk and Bruce Perry. https://bit.ly/3VRNy8z
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-trauma-therapist--5739761/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the special guest host series of The Trauma
Therapist Podcast, where I'm going to be handing over the
mic to some incredible guest hosts. In each episode, you'll
hear fresh perspectives and unique insights to inform and inspire
you in all the while keeping the heart of this
podcast alive. So sit back and enjoy.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
All right, Welcome to the Trauma Podcast. Trauma Therapist Podcast
with a guy Macpheerson, and I'm your co host. I'm
your guest host. I mean today, it's Zanna Babbitt and
I'm a trauma therapist in private practice in San Francisco
(00:39):
and the author of a self help book called Heal
the Body, Heal the Mind. And I'm so excited to
be here today with Maggie Klein, who is a Somatic
Experience International faculty member and author of three very powerful
(01:00):
books on healing trauma and especially in children. So welcome,
it's so nice to see you today. And today Meggie
and I will explore how trauma lives in the bodies
of children, and how grief manifests in ways we may
not expect, and what it truly means to support young
(01:24):
ones through loss, and we'll also discuss practical ways how parents, caregivers,
and therapists can help children process grief in a way
that fosters resilience and healing. Maggie, I'm so grateful to
have you here today and i want to ask you
(01:46):
the first question in your work.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
Yeah, thank you first of all for having me so,
because this is my passion, is to help parents, therapists
and teachers, educators and anybody grandparents who cares about kids,
to help them to be able to explore inside what's
going on and to be able to release the trauma
(02:11):
from their bodies.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
So I'm thrilled, yes, and yeah, thank you for you
giving me that opportunity to give to interview you today.
In your work, how do you describe grief and how
do children experience grief especially and the wake of all
(02:32):
these natural disasters that we have. I thought that might
be a good example of how children might feel grief
and loss.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
Yeah, that's a big question, but I'm going to simplify
it because of the shortness of our time, and is
all people who have shock because of something that happens
that's out of the blue. This is children and adults.
They have shock and grief grief comes from the loss.
(03:06):
Shock comes from the fact that it was unexpected and
so massive that it overwhelmed their nervous system, and they're
both treated differently. The most therapists are very and even
parents are very familiar with emotion, but most most people
are not familiar with the physiology of trauma, which which
(03:29):
can only be healed by working with sensations from the
physical sensations which are also feelings, and children very often
manifest through tummy aches, headaches, and especially fatigue because their
nervous system gets shut down, especially the younger ones, because
(03:51):
the younger they are, the less mobility and facility and
resources they have to protect themselves, so they're dependent on
their parents. The more dependent they are on their parents,
the more their bodies go into shock. And very often
people don't even realize it because they don't cry.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Oh, they don't see. What should we look out for
is then in a child to you said they're really tired,
Will they take more naps or will they be just
be very lethargic or what does that look like?
Speaker 3 (04:24):
They might not that you'll notice their routine. I mean,
especially if with something like the Palisades and the fire
from up an Altadena that what do they call that?
And the other fires where the homes are destroyed. It's
very complex. But one of the things that's really important
for your listeners to know is that children pick up
(04:48):
the cues from their parents and the people that are
around them, the first responders, their grandparents, whoever, when they
go into shelter. So if the parents we're also in
the disaster, we need outside people to come in and
to help the parents and the adults first to be
(05:09):
able to move through their shock, which sometimes means trembling
and shaking, and very often it means tears will come,
which you're natural, and as the tears flow, it starts
to relieve the trauma. And when it relieves the trauma,
you'll notice a breath, like a really spontaneous breath that comes,
(05:36):
and it's like you can tell in the child, oh,
or the adult if you're working with the adult. Oh,
a cycle of completion just happened. As this is called
first aid. Yeah, once the shock is relieved, it's easier
than to be able to work with the grieving process,
which is longer. The shock can be worked through very easily.
(06:01):
I mean, it doesn't it sounds simplistic, but Peter Levine
taught me so much about how it gets lodged, and
there's a stuckness and a numbness. So for kids, they
may be pale, they may not be interested in their
normal routine, they might not want to play games. Depending
on the age of the child, they could show it
(06:22):
as irritability. They might start fighting with siblings where they
normally don't fight that aggressively, they'll show more aggressive aggression,
especially like I said, if their harm wrongs are coming
in the younger children, but also the older ones and
the adults can end up feeling nauseated or feeling like
they have a flu coming on or an illness, when
(06:44):
it's really just a shock causing their system to start
to shut down. So let's say I don't want to
play a game. I don't want to do that.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Yeah, I may.
Speaker 3 (06:54):
Not be able to eat. They go into such a shock.
I mean, this wasn't even a disaster, it was actually
a good thing. I worked with a four year old
who whose parents had bought a house and she was
used to being living with the grandmother, and when they
moved into the new house, she refused to eat because
(07:14):
she was very bonded with her grandma, and nobody knew why,
and the pediatricians said, there's no reason, no medical reason.
So the little girl came to me and one of
the things I had that the dad. I had her
sit on her dad's lap because she was barely four,
and I had a little Teddy Bear, and I said,
(07:37):
I showed the bear. I showed her what happens to
Teddy Bear's stomach when there's a move to a new house.
And I had I put my hand on Teddy Bear's
stomach and then encouraged her to do that. And then
I said, how about your stomach? You know, how is
your stomach? And she just made a little groaning sound.
(07:59):
I said, would you like your daddy to put to
put his hand on your tummy? And then I explained
to the parent that they need to soften their hand
to allow warmth to come in so that the child
is feeling their warmth and love and care and not
feeling their stress from not knowing what's wrong with their child.
(08:22):
I said, your child's gonna be okay. So the reassuring
words are really important. And then I had the dad
put his hand on his daughter's little tummy and sure
enough he could feel. He had no training. He was
a has met a has met person who works with
toxic materials that wears a suit, just the regular old guy,
(08:47):
not old, but a regular worker and laborer. And he
put his hand on the tummy. He goes, oh, it's
so tight in there. And so I had the little
girl continued to work on Teddy Bear's tummy while the
dad was wor just working. By working, I mean just
relaxing his hand and just keeping it there and letting
(09:08):
the girl know she can feel where her dad's hand
is and to describe does it feel warm or cool?
You know what happens under dad's hand as he holds
you there in that spot that hurts?
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Can I ask you a question about that? When when
you do that? I was trained by We talked about this.
I was trained by Peter Levine through the training too.
Except by the way, for the listener, it's a long training.
It can take like three years.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
Or so, right, yeah, exactly, Yes, it's not.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Just a a like one weeknd training. It sounds like
you said, it sounds simplistic, but it isn't. But I
think what you're doing is when a child and anyone
goes into shock, the nervous system response with fight, flight,
freeze and how and you then want to work with
(10:02):
the nervous system to calm it down and get out
of that survival mode. And how you do that is
by sensations, because the nervous system has only the language
of sensations, it doesn't have the language of words, So
you're combined. Is that what you're doing, you are.
Speaker 3 (10:20):
That's exactly what I'm doing, is working with the physiology
of the shop because we didn't know now, we didn't
work with the grief yet. The grief is another exactly,
but as far as you address the shock sensations, what
is it feel like? And with young children especially nurturing
touch is really important. Yeah, children, it might be a
(10:42):
touch on the shoulder or the back. But if like
when I worked in Thailand after the Southeast Asian tsunami
with the children, very often, if they had a tummy ache,
we put the hand on the tummy. If they had
a headache, we held their head in the back right
(11:04):
here on the occipital area of the back.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
They had.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
Just gently cup your hands and let the child's head
fall into your hands and ask them what's that? What
is that what do you notice?
Speaker 2 (11:15):
What's that like? Yes? And so when you make a
physical connection you help the nervous system that's in shock.
And then also what I remember is when you when
you apply touch in an appropriate way and where it's needed,
that there's some there's an oxytocin that is released as well.
(11:39):
Is that right? Yes?
Speaker 3 (11:41):
But it also helps the child to be able to feel,
to look within. You know, most people nowadays know about
emotional intelligence, but this is a different type of intelligence
called introceptive or sensation awareness. Introceptive are the physical sensations,
and it's that when you have the hand in the
(12:05):
place that hurts, that's when the child you can ask
the child to bring their awareness there and then they
can notice more sensations that are happening. They can actually,
like the little four year old even notice you know
that her belly was getting softer. She didn't use the
word softer, but she's she's you know, she said it
felt better, and that's very Typically children don't have a
(12:27):
big vocabulary for sensations. So that's when you.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Know that my clients, a lot of my clients, when
they first start with me, they don't either. I think
that's a part of our culture that is more focused
on on first the mind and then maybe emotions, but
last probably the body.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
That's why this book that Peter has me to write
chrama through a child's eyes. It has exercises for the
parents to deal with.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
I love it. I love it. This has a.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
Smaller version, you know, the same. This is a smaller
version for parents. It's basically very similar, except that it
doesn't have the chapter on natural disasters or birth trauma,
or the chapter on working with institutions like hospitals and schools.
But I was asked by North Atlantic to build to
(13:19):
make a special one for agencies in schools, So that's
this one. Brain Changing Strategies to Trauma proof of our schools.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Great. Yeah, those are very powerful books. I definitely read
your trauma from the child's perspective. And I think if
you could clarify too for people who maybe not as
familiar is there are many ways of experiencing loss and trauma.
And it's not only by if somebody died. It's also
(13:50):
through natural disasters. It's many any ways that you can
experience trauma. Do you want to speak to that for
a child too?
Speaker 3 (14:01):
I mean children sometimes they fall and lose a tooth.
They might have an injury where they lose a toe
or even a limb. They also have there's a lot
of children, unfortunately, have experienced sexual trauma and older teenagers rape,
and that's a loss of innocence. So there's a what's
(14:25):
nice because we can't do all this in twenty minutes,
But I have a timeline in the books, a picture
of it with step by step by step how you
work with the timeline of when the loss began up
until present time, and it directs you what to do
(14:46):
before and after and some of the if it was
a loss of a person through divorce or death or illness,
it helps you to see things that you wish you
had told the person before and helps you to work
through the emotional part of the trauma, which is brief,
and that's mediated from a different part of the brain.
(15:08):
It's the middle brain that's a part of the limbic system,
and it's it's it's different, so you have to work
with the emotional brain and the thinking brain for the
grieving part. But initially the shock is what's what we
learned from Peter Levine which was missing, and that's exactly
(15:28):
what you're talking about, Suzanne, is working with the nervous
system through the sensations.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Yes, and that seems to be the number one because
that also informs your emotions. It's not only informing your body,
but it's also informing your emotions.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
Yes. And if this shaka isn't worked through, there's a frozenness. Yeah,
instance there's not that you will at least lose access
to your normal emotions. You can get very flat emotions.
And children will have a flat what we call a
flat affect, like I'm okay, now, there's nothing wrong. I
don't know why you're bugging me.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Yes, they'll say, but they'll.
Speaker 3 (16:09):
But then they'll go punch somebody on the on the
school yard, or start start an argument with some a
parent in a way that they normally don't. That's more aggressive.
I mean all kids argue, right, but it's a way
that's more aggressive.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Yes, And it's a way that you don't know your
child like, it's something that it hasn't shown before. It's
like unusual for that child, is that right? Yes?
Speaker 3 (16:33):
And one thing that's very common, especially if it's a
disaster where there's loss, is nightmares. Night nightmares, and sometimes
night terrors as well, which are different nightmares that children
remember and they can draw a picture of it, and
I teach people how to work with working with nightmares
with children and adults as well. But sometimes there's no words.
(16:56):
The child will wake up screaming and not even being
be aware that they they that anything was bothering them.
They think the parents are crazy for shaking them because
they're in a dissociated state. There's no literature on it.
I actually just this just came in the mail yesterday.
I have a chapter in the EMDR manual on using
(17:18):
somatic Experiencing Complex Trauma and Dissociation. There's an entire chapter
and I have case studies in here. It just came
like this week, and then this came in the mail
the day the day after.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
It's so heavy.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
This is from the the Handbook of Complex Trauma and Dissociation. Oh,
this is the EMDR one. I'm sorry, this is the
one from the e MDR folks. They wanted me to
write about sematic experiencing and this is the because they
realized that with shock you can't just work with thoughts
and emotions. It doesn't work.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Because you have to go into the nervous system and
clear as of shock.
Speaker 3 (17:59):
First, this is the one from the Australian Childhood Trauma Foundation.
I'm working with whole communities, communities, schools, hospitals, so at
LEAs just came in the male I don't know what
to do with them.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
They're so I look like, yeah, exactly. So what a
parent can do is they first recognize that they're in
shock and then also they can help their child. Help
their child by putting their hands on where they complain
about the pain or where they feel something that they say,
(18:34):
my stomach is upset or my shoulders are hurting, and
then the parent can connect with that and that will
help the nervous system. And then what I take from
you Then you go into the emotion of grief.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
That might not even come up till the next day,
and you can have child draw pictures of it and
share if they're old enough to use their words. With teenagers,
they're not going to want to have touch necess the
younger teenager's light. It depends, but you always ask permission anyway,
would would would it? Would it help if Mommy or
(19:09):
daddy or grandma put their hand hand where it hurts,
And usually kids will say yes or on would you
rather have it on your shoulder or back. With very
very little kids, they can sit on the mom's left,
but you don't want to hold the child so tight
so that they can't shake. The important thing here is
the parent or whoever is holding the child or touching
(19:31):
the child has to be grounded.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Okay, so that's.
Speaker 3 (19:37):
Related because what comes through the hand is going to
be transmitted if the If the parent feels anxious and nervous,
they shouldn't touch the child.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Yeah, because our nervous system synchronize.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
Right, Yes, exactly exactly. The child will pick up and
not only have their own anxiety, but now they'll have
their parents' anxiety.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
Yes, and then if he was depending on the age,
because children't feel egocentric, they take on the responsibility of
their parents. They then think it's their fault, possibly too.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
And the parents shouldn't be too surprised if the child
regresses in their development, especially the younger ones. So they
may start bedwetting again if it's a really severe trauma,
or they may want to go back to the bottle
if they're using a cup, or have mommy feed them,
or rocking is very good. Singing Lalla Bah heis no
(20:30):
matter what age. But what's important is that they not
to shame the child, to say, oh, you know, you've
been through a lot, I'm not surprised this is normal
for you to wet your bed because it was so scary.
A lot has to do with the gentleness and the
(20:51):
tone of the words. Part of the se training program,
Peter has taught us Stephen Porge's beautiful polyvagel theory work
and how rhythms, yes, pacing, presence, and tone of voice
have to do with how the child will receive your words,
(21:12):
and it will help them to come if they see
the parent is not is not angry or shaming them,
and the parent is helping them. And you could even
stand up with your child, especially children that aren't babies
or toddlers, but older, little older children's, elementary school children,
(21:33):
and say let's do a little bit of grounding to
feel Mother Earth beleath our feet. And we can even
go out on a grassy area, or if we have
a floor that's wooden, take the shoes off and just
let's be together and rock back and forth. You can
be across from me and we'll play a little game
(21:53):
of just mirroring each other and see if you can
find your internal rhythm and allow your energy to just
drop way down into the floor, as if you have
roots growing deep into mother earth.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
Yeah, that's the grounding. And you are working on a
children's book, and I imagine that's what you have in
that too, And we.
Speaker 3 (22:15):
Have Oh yes, I was disappointed that I couldn't show
you the coverage today, but I made it. I don't
have a color printer, but it it's gonna look like this.
It's called My Inner Doggie is Growling. Here's the one
the professional person did, and they didn't do a pretty
(22:35):
good job. It doesn't even show up. But the subtitle
is A dog one Magical Adventure to Name and Tame
Big Anger. And it's the first of a series because
anger is the most to me, is the most misunderstood emotion.
It's for making boundaries and so this shows the child
look himself in the mirror for self awareness and seeing
(23:01):
the angry doggie inside and so helping children to deal.
But there's pages. There's description for parents on how to
use the book and how to help the children access
their sensations, and there's three interactive pages at the end
of the story. One is for making a sensation in
a box to write sensation words. The parents can print
(23:24):
it if the child can't write yet, if they're older children,
they can make up their own. And then there's a
page showing the inner doggie, an example of how they
different feelings they may be having, and it shows how
to balance it so if the child's only feeling uncomfortable stuff,
how to see if they can feel the resources, like
(23:45):
the person that's working with them or a pet. And
then it shows an outline with little boxes to color
in of all the different sensations and emotions. That's blank
that's for the child to color on. And there's another
page with the doggie. And then there's a page with
an actual I call it the gingerbread cookie kit, with
lots of space for them to show what's happening on
(24:07):
the inside of their body.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
Yes, very important. We just have a couple more minutes.
The time goes by so quickly, I can't believe it.
But it's so important to help a child through the
first initial reaction to loss and trauma, and that's your shock.
And you have beautiful books and can help people and
(24:29):
parents and community to work with the children before and
then later on also work with the grief. Where where
can people find information about you? Or is there anything
else that you want?
Speaker 3 (24:43):
I have a website, it's a www. Simply Maggie Cline
dot com. But make sure you spill my last name properly.
It's the K L I N E. There's only there's
only e at the end, and about fifty percent of
the people spell it wrong.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
With these books, right, Yes.
Speaker 3 (25:06):
You could purchase those books directly from that website.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Oh perfect, Okay, great, And it's.
Speaker 3 (25:11):
It's it hasn't been updated yet. I'm going I'm because
I'm launching the book as soon as they print it,
which is it's ready for printing. It's just their team
is way behind where I am. And I have mailer
light that hasn't been put onto my website, and they
can actually subscribe. It's free to subscribe. Just put their
(25:32):
name in and they'll get a notification when the book
comes out. Great should come out soon.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
I hope his fingers crossed, because it's so helpful for
children to work through that, and there's definitely so many
reasons nowadays that children can go into shotgun trauma.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
I never got to ask you if mcpheerson I don't
know his first name.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Hi, guy Macpheerson.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
That's an easy name if it's the Heat broadcast internationally,
because I am going to be doing a play shop
and it shows what I teach in the play shop.
Uh In. It's not posted on there the dates yet,
but it's going to be for Southeast Asia and China's
time zone. But it will be in English with simultaneous
(26:20):
translation into into Mandarin, and it will be we're finalizing
the dates. I think it'll be two three hour segments
in the end of July and one two three hour
segments in the beginning of August. We're finalizing the August states,
so it'll be two separate weekends, but only three hours
(26:41):
each day, and it'll be five o'clock eight o'clock in
Pacific time. But that'll be posted within the next month.
And the mailer light.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Out was that and you on your website, it'll be up.
Speaker 3 (26:53):
Yeah, if they check my website, they can check it
right now, but it's it won't be updated for a
couple yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
Okay, good, okay, Well, thank you so much. Thank you
for giving me a chance to interview you and for
educating everyone about how to help children. It's so important
and so and good luck was your book and all
your workshops and all you endeavors, So thank you so much. Welcome.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
It's my pleasure.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
There's one other thing.
Speaker 3 (27:24):
I mean, people can start this way before a tragedy happens.
And that's the reason I wrote this book. It's for
before or after, but to get kids ready. And when
the kids come home from school and they had a
good day or a not so good day and they
say I'm really happy or I'm really angry or I'm
really sad, to say, can you can what is that
(27:46):
like to be sad in your body? Where do you
feel it?
Speaker 2 (27:48):
Sweetie?
Speaker 1 (27:49):
You know?
Speaker 3 (27:49):
Is it in your heart or is it in your
If they can't, if they don't answer, usually kids will
answer right away. I'll give them a menu. When I
was doing private therapy and I'd say, she said, my
tummy hurts, and I said, oh, is it? I started
giving a menu. She goes, it's I already know. It's
hard like a rock. Yes.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
So this is good information no matter what, because you
want children to learn to be in touch with their
bodies so they can they're more resilient for anything that
comes in the future.
Speaker 3 (28:19):
These are life skills, so thank you Life skills.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
And it's actually good for adults too, so absolutely, okay, great,
thank you so much, thank you so much. Okay, talk
to you soon.
Speaker 3 (28:31):
I'm fine, so you can stop the recording and we
could check
Welcome to the special guest host series of The Trauma
Therapist Podcast, where I'm going to be handing over the
mic to some incredible guest hosts. In each episode, you'll
hear fresh perspectives and unique insights to inform and inspire
you in all the while keeping the heart of this
podcast alive. So sit back and enjoy.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
All right, Welcome to the Trauma Podcast. Trauma Therapist Podcast
with a guy Macpheerson, and I'm your co host. I'm
your guest host. I mean today, it's Zanna Babbitt and
I'm a trauma therapist in private practice in San Francisco
(00:39):
and the author of a self help book called Heal
the Body, Heal the Mind. And I'm so excited to
be here today with Maggie Klein, who is a Somatic
Experience International faculty member and author of three very powerful
(01:00):
books on healing trauma and especially in children. So welcome,
it's so nice to see you today. And today Meggie
and I will explore how trauma lives in the bodies
of children, and how grief manifests in ways we may
not expect, and what it truly means to support young
(01:24):
ones through loss, and we'll also discuss practical ways how parents, caregivers,
and therapists can help children process grief in a way
that fosters resilience and healing. Maggie, I'm so grateful to
have you here today and i want to ask you
(01:46):
the first question in your work.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
Yeah, thank you first of all for having me so,
because this is my passion, is to help parents, therapists
and teachers, educators and anybody grandparents who cares about kids,
to help them to be able to explore inside what's
going on and to be able to release the trauma
(02:11):
from their bodies.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
So I'm thrilled, yes, and yeah, thank you for you
giving me that opportunity to give to interview you today.
In your work, how do you describe grief and how
do children experience grief especially and the wake of all
(02:32):
these natural disasters that we have. I thought that might
be a good example of how children might feel grief
and loss.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
Yeah, that's a big question, but I'm going to simplify
it because of the shortness of our time, and is
all people who have shock because of something that happens
that's out of the blue. This is children and adults.
They have shock and grief grief comes from the loss.
(03:06):
Shock comes from the fact that it was unexpected and
so massive that it overwhelmed their nervous system, and they're
both treated differently. The most therapists are very and even
parents are very familiar with emotion, but most most people
are not familiar with the physiology of trauma, which which
(03:29):
can only be healed by working with sensations from the
physical sensations which are also feelings, and children very often
manifest through tummy aches, headaches, and especially fatigue because their
nervous system gets shut down, especially the younger ones, because
(03:51):
the younger they are, the less mobility and facility and
resources they have to protect themselves, so they're dependent on
their parents. The more dependent they are on their parents,
the more their bodies go into shock. And very often
people don't even realize it because they don't cry.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Oh, they don't see. What should we look out for
is then in a child to you said they're really tired,
Will they take more naps or will they be just
be very lethargic or what does that look like?
Speaker 3 (04:24):
They might not that you'll notice their routine. I mean,
especially if with something like the Palisades and the fire
from up an Altadena that what do they call that?
And the other fires where the homes are destroyed. It's
very complex. But one of the things that's really important
for your listeners to know is that children pick up
(04:48):
the cues from their parents and the people that are
around them, the first responders, their grandparents, whoever, when they
go into shelter. So if the parents we're also in
the disaster, we need outside people to come in and
to help the parents and the adults first to be
(05:09):
able to move through their shock, which sometimes means trembling
and shaking, and very often it means tears will come,
which you're natural, and as the tears flow, it starts
to relieve the trauma. And when it relieves the trauma,
you'll notice a breath, like a really spontaneous breath that comes,
(05:36):
and it's like you can tell in the child, oh,
or the adult if you're working with the adult. Oh,
a cycle of completion just happened. As this is called
first aid. Yeah, once the shock is relieved, it's easier
than to be able to work with the grieving process,
which is longer. The shock can be worked through very easily.
(06:01):
I mean, it doesn't it sounds simplistic, but Peter Levine
taught me so much about how it gets lodged, and
there's a stuckness and a numbness. So for kids, they
may be pale, they may not be interested in their
normal routine, they might not want to play games. Depending
on the age of the child, they could show it
(06:22):
as irritability. They might start fighting with siblings where they
normally don't fight that aggressively, they'll show more aggressive aggression,
especially like I said, if their harm wrongs are coming
in the younger children, but also the older ones and
the adults can end up feeling nauseated or feeling like
they have a flu coming on or an illness, when
(06:44):
it's really just a shock causing their system to start
to shut down. So let's say I don't want to
play a game. I don't want to do that.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Yeah, I may.
Speaker 3 (06:54):
Not be able to eat. They go into such a shock.
I mean, this wasn't even a disaster, it was actually
a good thing. I worked with a four year old
who whose parents had bought a house and she was
used to being living with the grandmother, and when they
moved into the new house, she refused to eat because
(07:14):
she was very bonded with her grandma, and nobody knew why,
and the pediatricians said, there's no reason, no medical reason.
So the little girl came to me and one of
the things I had that the dad. I had her
sit on her dad's lap because she was barely four,
and I had a little Teddy Bear, and I said,
(07:37):
I showed the bear. I showed her what happens to
Teddy Bear's stomach when there's a move to a new house.
And I had I put my hand on Teddy Bear's
stomach and then encouraged her to do that. And then
I said, how about your stomach? You know, how is
your stomach? And she just made a little groaning sound.
(07:59):
I said, would you like your daddy to put to
put his hand on your tummy? And then I explained
to the parent that they need to soften their hand
to allow warmth to come in so that the child
is feeling their warmth and love and care and not
feeling their stress from not knowing what's wrong with their child.
(08:22):
I said, your child's gonna be okay. So the reassuring
words are really important. And then I had the dad
put his hand on his daughter's little tummy and sure
enough he could feel. He had no training. He was
a has met a has met person who works with
toxic materials that wears a suit, just the regular old guy,
(08:47):
not old, but a regular worker and laborer. And he
put his hand on the tummy. He goes, oh, it's
so tight in there. And so I had the little
girl continued to work on Teddy Bear's tummy while the
dad was wor just working. By working, I mean just
relaxing his hand and just keeping it there and letting
(09:08):
the girl know she can feel where her dad's hand
is and to describe does it feel warm or cool?
You know what happens under dad's hand as he holds
you there in that spot that hurts?
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Can I ask you a question about that? When when
you do that? I was trained by We talked about this.
I was trained by Peter Levine through the training too.
Except by the way, for the listener, it's a long training.
It can take like three years.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
Or so, right, yeah, exactly, Yes, it's not.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Just a a like one weeknd training. It sounds like
you said, it sounds simplistic, but it isn't. But I
think what you're doing is when a child and anyone
goes into shock, the nervous system response with fight, flight,
freeze and how and you then want to work with
(10:02):
the nervous system to calm it down and get out
of that survival mode. And how you do that is
by sensations, because the nervous system has only the language
of sensations, it doesn't have the language of words, So
you're combined. Is that what you're doing, you are.
Speaker 3 (10:20):
That's exactly what I'm doing, is working with the physiology
of the shop because we didn't know now, we didn't
work with the grief yet. The grief is another exactly,
but as far as you address the shock sensations, what
is it feel like? And with young children especially nurturing
touch is really important. Yeah, children, it might be a
(10:42):
touch on the shoulder or the back. But if like
when I worked in Thailand after the Southeast Asian tsunami
with the children, very often, if they had a tummy ache,
we put the hand on the tummy. If they had
a headache, we held their head in the back right
(11:04):
here on the occipital area of the back.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
They had.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
Just gently cup your hands and let the child's head
fall into your hands and ask them what's that? What
is that what do you notice?
Speaker 2 (11:15):
What's that like? Yes? And so when you make a
physical connection you help the nervous system that's in shock.
And then also what I remember is when you when
you apply touch in an appropriate way and where it's needed,
that there's some there's an oxytocin that is released as well.
(11:39):
Is that right? Yes?
Speaker 3 (11:41):
But it also helps the child to be able to feel,
to look within. You know, most people nowadays know about
emotional intelligence, but this is a different type of intelligence
called introceptive or sensation awareness. Introceptive are the physical sensations,
and it's that when you have the hand in the
(12:05):
place that hurts, that's when the child you can ask
the child to bring their awareness there and then they
can notice more sensations that are happening. They can actually,
like the little four year old even notice you know
that her belly was getting softer. She didn't use the
word softer, but she's she's you know, she said it
felt better, and that's very Typically children don't have a
(12:27):
big vocabulary for sensations. So that's when you.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Know that my clients, a lot of my clients, when
they first start with me, they don't either. I think
that's a part of our culture that is more focused
on on first the mind and then maybe emotions, but
last probably the body.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
That's why this book that Peter has me to write
chrama through a child's eyes. It has exercises for the
parents to deal with.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
I love it. I love it. This has a.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
Smaller version, you know, the same. This is a smaller
version for parents. It's basically very similar, except that it
doesn't have the chapter on natural disasters or birth trauma,
or the chapter on working with institutions like hospitals and schools.
But I was asked by North Atlantic to build to
(13:19):
make a special one for agencies in schools, So that's
this one. Brain Changing Strategies to Trauma proof of our schools.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Great. Yeah, those are very powerful books. I definitely read
your trauma from the child's perspective. And I think if
you could clarify too for people who maybe not as
familiar is there are many ways of experiencing loss and trauma.
And it's not only by if somebody died. It's also
(13:50):
through natural disasters. It's many any ways that you can
experience trauma. Do you want to speak to that for
a child too?
Speaker 3 (14:01):
I mean children sometimes they fall and lose a tooth.
They might have an injury where they lose a toe
or even a limb. They also have there's a lot
of children, unfortunately, have experienced sexual trauma and older teenagers rape,
and that's a loss of innocence. So there's a what's
(14:25):
nice because we can't do all this in twenty minutes,
But I have a timeline in the books, a picture
of it with step by step by step how you
work with the timeline of when the loss began up
until present time, and it directs you what to do
(14:46):
before and after and some of the if it was
a loss of a person through divorce or death or illness,
it helps you to see things that you wish you
had told the person before and helps you to work
through the emotional part of the trauma, which is brief,
and that's mediated from a different part of the brain.
(15:08):
It's the middle brain that's a part of the limbic system,
and it's it's it's different, so you have to work
with the emotional brain and the thinking brain for the
grieving part. But initially the shock is what's what we
learned from Peter Levine which was missing, and that's exactly
(15:28):
what you're talking about, Suzanne, is working with the nervous
system through the sensations.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Yes, and that seems to be the number one because
that also informs your emotions. It's not only informing your body,
but it's also informing your emotions.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
Yes. And if this shaka isn't worked through, there's a frozenness. Yeah,
instance there's not that you will at least lose access
to your normal emotions. You can get very flat emotions.
And children will have a flat what we call a
flat affect, like I'm okay, now, there's nothing wrong. I
don't know why you're bugging me.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Yes, they'll say, but they'll.
Speaker 3 (16:09):
But then they'll go punch somebody on the on the
school yard, or start start an argument with some a
parent in a way that they normally don't. That's more aggressive.
I mean all kids argue, right, but it's a way
that's more aggressive.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Yes, And it's a way that you don't know your
child like, it's something that it hasn't shown before. It's
like unusual for that child, is that right? Yes?
Speaker 3 (16:33):
And one thing that's very common, especially if it's a
disaster where there's loss, is nightmares. Night nightmares, and sometimes
night terrors as well, which are different nightmares that children
remember and they can draw a picture of it, and
I teach people how to work with working with nightmares
with children and adults as well. But sometimes there's no words.
(16:56):
The child will wake up screaming and not even being
be aware that they they that anything was bothering them.
They think the parents are crazy for shaking them because
they're in a dissociated state. There's no literature on it.
I actually just this just came in the mail yesterday.
I have a chapter in the EMDR manual on using
(17:18):
somatic Experiencing Complex Trauma and Dissociation. There's an entire chapter
and I have case studies in here. It just came
like this week, and then this came in the mail
the day the day after.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
It's so heavy.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
This is from the the Handbook of Complex Trauma and Dissociation. Oh,
this is the EMDR one. I'm sorry, this is the
one from the e MDR folks. They wanted me to
write about sematic experiencing and this is the because they
realized that with shock you can't just work with thoughts
and emotions. It doesn't work.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Because you have to go into the nervous system and
clear as of shock.
Speaker 3 (17:59):
First, this is the one from the Australian Childhood Trauma Foundation.
I'm working with whole communities, communities, schools, hospitals, so at
LEAs just came in the male I don't know what
to do with them.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
They're so I look like, yeah, exactly. So what a
parent can do is they first recognize that they're in
shock and then also they can help their child. Help
their child by putting their hands on where they complain
about the pain or where they feel something that they say,
(18:34):
my stomach is upset or my shoulders are hurting, and
then the parent can connect with that and that will
help the nervous system. And then what I take from
you Then you go into the emotion of grief.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
That might not even come up till the next day,
and you can have child draw pictures of it and
share if they're old enough to use their words. With teenagers,
they're not going to want to have touch necess the
younger teenager's light. It depends, but you always ask permission anyway,
would would would it? Would it help if Mommy or
(19:09):
daddy or grandma put their hand hand where it hurts,
And usually kids will say yes or on would you
rather have it on your shoulder or back. With very
very little kids, they can sit on the mom's left,
but you don't want to hold the child so tight
so that they can't shake. The important thing here is
the parent or whoever is holding the child or touching
(19:31):
the child has to be grounded.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Okay, so that's.
Speaker 3 (19:37):
Related because what comes through the hand is going to
be transmitted if the If the parent feels anxious and nervous,
they shouldn't touch the child.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Yeah, because our nervous system synchronize.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
Right, Yes, exactly exactly. The child will pick up and
not only have their own anxiety, but now they'll have
their parents' anxiety.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
Yes, and then if he was depending on the age,
because children't feel egocentric, they take on the responsibility of
their parents. They then think it's their fault, possibly too.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
And the parents shouldn't be too surprised if the child
regresses in their development, especially the younger ones. So they
may start bedwetting again if it's a really severe trauma,
or they may want to go back to the bottle
if they're using a cup, or have mommy feed them,
or rocking is very good. Singing Lalla Bah heis no
(20:30):
matter what age. But what's important is that they not
to shame the child, to say, oh, you know, you've
been through a lot, I'm not surprised this is normal
for you to wet your bed because it was so scary.
A lot has to do with the gentleness and the
(20:51):
tone of the words. Part of the se training program,
Peter has taught us Stephen Porge's beautiful polyvagel theory work
and how rhythms, yes, pacing, presence, and tone of voice
have to do with how the child will receive your words,
(21:12):
and it will help them to come if they see
the parent is not is not angry or shaming them,
and the parent is helping them. And you could even
stand up with your child, especially children that aren't babies
or toddlers, but older, little older children's, elementary school children,
(21:33):
and say let's do a little bit of grounding to
feel Mother Earth beleath our feet. And we can even
go out on a grassy area, or if we have
a floor that's wooden, take the shoes off and just
let's be together and rock back and forth. You can
be across from me and we'll play a little game
(21:53):
of just mirroring each other and see if you can
find your internal rhythm and allow your energy to just
drop way down into the floor, as if you have
roots growing deep into mother earth.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
Yeah, that's the grounding. And you are working on a
children's book, and I imagine that's what you have in
that too, And we.
Speaker 3 (22:15):
Have Oh yes, I was disappointed that I couldn't show
you the coverage today, but I made it. I don't
have a color printer, but it it's gonna look like this.
It's called My Inner Doggie is Growling. Here's the one
the professional person did, and they didn't do a pretty
(22:35):
good job. It doesn't even show up. But the subtitle
is A dog one Magical Adventure to Name and Tame
Big Anger. And it's the first of a series because
anger is the most to me, is the most misunderstood emotion.
It's for making boundaries and so this shows the child
look himself in the mirror for self awareness and seeing
(23:01):
the angry doggie inside and so helping children to deal.
But there's pages. There's description for parents on how to
use the book and how to help the children access
their sensations, and there's three interactive pages at the end
of the story. One is for making a sensation in
a box to write sensation words. The parents can print
(23:24):
it if the child can't write yet, if they're older children,
they can make up their own. And then there's a
page showing the inner doggie, an example of how they
different feelings they may be having, and it shows how
to balance it so if the child's only feeling uncomfortable stuff,
how to see if they can feel the resources, like
(23:45):
the person that's working with them or a pet. And
then it shows an outline with little boxes to color
in of all the different sensations and emotions. That's blank
that's for the child to color on. And there's another
page with the doggie. And then there's a page with
an actual I call it the gingerbread cookie kit, with
lots of space for them to show what's happening on
(24:07):
the inside of their body.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
Yes, very important. We just have a couple more minutes.
The time goes by so quickly, I can't believe it.
But it's so important to help a child through the
first initial reaction to loss and trauma, and that's your shock.
And you have beautiful books and can help people and
(24:29):
parents and community to work with the children before and
then later on also work with the grief. Where where
can people find information about you? Or is there anything
else that you want?
Speaker 3 (24:43):
I have a website, it's a www. Simply Maggie Cline
dot com. But make sure you spill my last name properly.
It's the K L I N E. There's only there's
only e at the end, and about fifty percent of
the people spell it wrong.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
With these books, right, Yes.
Speaker 3 (25:06):
You could purchase those books directly from that website.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Oh perfect, Okay, great, And it's.
Speaker 3 (25:11):
It's it hasn't been updated yet. I'm going I'm because
I'm launching the book as soon as they print it,
which is it's ready for printing. It's just their team
is way behind where I am. And I have mailer
light that hasn't been put onto my website, and they
can actually subscribe. It's free to subscribe. Just put their
(25:32):
name in and they'll get a notification when the book
comes out. Great should come out soon.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
I hope his fingers crossed, because it's so helpful for
children to work through that, and there's definitely so many
reasons nowadays that children can go into shotgun trauma.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
I never got to ask you if mcpheerson I don't
know his first name.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Hi, guy Macpheerson.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
That's an easy name if it's the Heat broadcast internationally,
because I am going to be doing a play shop
and it shows what I teach in the play shop.
Uh In. It's not posted on there the dates yet,
but it's going to be for Southeast Asia and China's
time zone. But it will be in English with simultaneous
(26:20):
translation into into Mandarin, and it will be we're finalizing
the dates. I think it'll be two three hour segments
in the end of July and one two three hour
segments in the beginning of August. We're finalizing the August states,
so it'll be two separate weekends, but only three hours
(26:41):
each day, and it'll be five o'clock eight o'clock in
Pacific time. But that'll be posted within the next month.
And the mailer light.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Out was that and you on your website, it'll be up.
Speaker 3 (26:53):
Yeah, if they check my website, they can check it
right now, but it's it won't be updated for a
couple yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
Okay, good, okay, Well, thank you so much. Thank you
for giving me a chance to interview you and for
educating everyone about how to help children. It's so important
and so and good luck was your book and all
your workshops and all you endeavors, So thank you so much. Welcome.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
It's my pleasure.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
There's one other thing.
Speaker 3 (27:24):
I mean, people can start this way before a tragedy happens.
And that's the reason I wrote this book. It's for
before or after, but to get kids ready. And when
the kids come home from school and they had a
good day or a not so good day and they
say I'm really happy or I'm really angry or I'm
really sad, to say, can you can what is that
(27:46):
like to be sad in your body? Where do you
feel it?
Speaker 2 (27:48):
Sweetie?
Speaker 1 (27:49):
You know?
Speaker 3 (27:49):
Is it in your heart or is it in your
If they can't, if they don't answer, usually kids will
answer right away. I'll give them a menu. When I
was doing private therapy and I'd say, she said, my
tummy hurts, and I said, oh, is it? I started
giving a menu. She goes, it's I already know. It's
hard like a rock. Yes.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
So this is good information no matter what, because you
want children to learn to be in touch with their
bodies so they can they're more resilient for anything that
comes in the future.
Speaker 3 (28:19):
These are life skills, so thank you Life skills.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
And it's actually good for adults too, so absolutely, okay, great,
thank you so much, thank you so much. Okay, talk
to you soon.
Speaker 3 (28:31):
I'm fine, so you can stop the recording and we
could check
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