November 28, 2025 • 32 mins
Gabriela Rosa is the founder and CEO of The Rosa Institute, the world’s first entirely virtual and holistic fertility clinic. She is a Harvard-trained fertility specialist who has spent decades not only treating the biological side of reproductive health but also holding space for the psychological pain that comes with it. Her clinical insights are matched by her deep empathy for what her patients go through and her belief that we need to start calling this what it is: a trauma that deserves to be witnessed and treated with compassion.
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In This Episode
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-trauma-therapist--5739761/support.
You can learn more about what I do here:
The Trauma Therapist Newsletter: celebrates the people and voices in the mental health profession. And it's free! Check it out here: https://bit.ly/4jGBeSa
———
If you’d like to support The Trauma Therapist Podcast and the work I do you can do that here with a monthly donation of $5, $7, or $10: Donate to The Trauma Therapist Podcast.
Click here to join my email list and receive podcast updates and other news.
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Jane App - use code GUY1MO at https://jane.app/book_a_demo
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Trauma Theriver's podcast. My name is Gamiferson
and I interview incredible people who share the story of
how trauma has shaped their lives. And a big thank
you for sponsoring today's episode goes to my guest and
our sponsors Kody five four three two one. Our folks,
(00:24):
welcome back to the podcast. Very excited to have as
Mike us today. Gabriella Rosa. Gabriella, welcome, Thank you so
much for having me, guys.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
It's lovely to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
O of the Rosa Institute, the world's first entirely virtual
and holistic fertility clinic. She's a Harvard trained fertility specialist
who has spent decades not only treating the biological side
of reproductive health, but also holding space for the psychological
pain that comes with it. Her clinical insights are matched
by her deep empathy for what our patients go through
(00:56):
and her belief that we need to start calling this
what it is, trauma that deserves to be witnessed and
treated with compassion. I love that, Gabriella. Before we get
going show with the listeners, where you're from originally and
where you are currently. Then we'll dive in.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
So I was born in Brazil, i was raised in Australia,
and I've lived in Boston for a few years now,
so I've lived in other places too. It's just so
happens that when people ask me where are you from,
I'm like, I have to literally stop and think, It's like,
where am I from?
Speaker 1 (01:34):
How does this start? For you? How did all this begin?
Speaker 2 (01:41):
It started a long time ago. Two thousand and one
is when I graduated and thought that I would change
the world by helping people have healthy babies. And it
was really interesting because how it started is certainly not
how it's going, you know, because what ended up happening
was that in the beginning, I used to have patients
(02:02):
who would come to me just wanted to prepare, and
in fact, I think that was more my focus. You
know that I was young, I was a new graduate.
I didn't really know kind of, you know, exactly the
focus that I was going to my career was going
to take. And it wasn't even you know, I was
about to say the career, the focus that I was
(02:22):
going to give my career, And the truth is that
it was the people who showed up in my rooms
that gave me the focus that my career ended up
taking because when I first started in my decision to
support people who wanted to have healthy babies, I was
very much thinking about preconception preparation, you know, and what
(02:43):
it is that people needed to do as a couple
unit to be able to get their bodies healthy, to
be able to get their gammy so to speak, you know,
to be the best possible to be able to create
a baby. About ten years into doing that, I have
a lady that is referred in my rooms who basically
(03:04):
has been trying to get pregnant for ten years. She
essentially had been told she had had multiple filed IDF cycles.
She had been told that, you know, getting older, it's
probably your eggs. The reality was that it was much
more than juerr eggs. There were lots of things that
were going on. And as much as I felt kind
(03:24):
of out of my depth at that point, and I
did tell her that, I said, listen, I don't know
that what I do is going to really be the
thing that's going to support you to have the baby
that you want, but let's try and see what happens.
I can certainly help to improve your health. And so
based on that agreement, we decided to move forward about
four months three and a half. Four months later, she
(03:45):
was pregnant for the first time in ten years, naturally
with her own eggs. So that to me was like
a big kind of life. Is this real? Truly? Yeah.
I was treating her as a naturopathic doctor, and I
was supporting naturopathy. We focused very much on the physical, emotional, mental,
(04:09):
spiritual aspects of a being. And I already had framework,
you know, process that I was kind of helping people
with so that I didn't forget things. I had kind
of like, for lack of a better way to describe it,
a master checklist, you know that I basically used to
go through and really kind of make sure have all
(04:29):
of these things being checked. And so once she got pregnant,
I was dubious. I was skeptical of that result. And
I really thought, like, lad, I, you know, it's it's
so easy to brush it off as kind of like
(04:53):
got pregnant. It was lucky, she got lucky, you know,
she finally got lucky and she got pregnant. It just
so happened that the association was that I was in
her life at that time, So that was kind of
what I brushed it off to and somebody there in
a few months after her taked to me with nineteen
years of the fertility. It's very similar story the f
(05:17):
cycles that failed, other treatments that had failed. And at
this point I was I was kind of less unwilling
to take her on because the first lady I was
kind of unwilling. I was like, look, I don't know.
I actually tried to convince her not to be treated
by me. She's like, no, no, no, I'm going to
give up anyway, so you might as well treat me.
(05:38):
So I was like, okay, alright, let's do this. And
so the second lady, I was kind of like, look,
I don't know if this is going to happen for
you in terms of treatment, if that's going to be
enough after everything you've been through. But there is this
lady that I just treated that got pregnant after ten years,
so we may as well be going to go and
see what happens. So went about five months later, this
(05:59):
woman is praying. I'm like, okay, this sounds like a
this is a big coincidence, and even so I am
going to shift what I do right now. And that
was the pivot point for me because what I learned
or what I experienced with these two women because they
had completely this detached themselves from the need for the outcome.
(06:26):
They basically they didn't have that level of anxiety and
desperation that is so hard in this kind of situation
when you're treating people who you know in that first year.
It's hard to treat people in that first year because
the look the second one was absolutely like she was
(06:52):
dragged in my office by her husband, like she didn't
even want to be there. She was rude. She was
just like, oh my god, really sit here and look
at this woman's face. That was kind of the feeling
that I had, you know, And I have to take
put if so I said, listen, if you don't want
to do this, you don't have to so, but you
have to decide, like I'm not going to waste my
(07:12):
time or yours by you kind of being half in
half out. So and I'll call it with my patience,
I have always called it like I'm not you know,
kind of I have to step on the eggshells with
them because even though I find that people appreciate even
though they've gone through so much, and there is a
high chance that they may be disappointed, you know, when
(07:37):
they go through fertility treatment out there in the world,
because seventy one percent of IVF cycles fail. But it
is literally that high. And this is a population data,
which means that people have been conditioned to expect that
they will go through fertility treatment after they've been through
(07:57):
a couple of cycles and it might not work. So
it's one of those things that you know, and it's
very different because it's very interesting how different stages of
the journey, and now I've seen it all, I can
really very much delineate people at different stages in that journey.
But this couple just very finished, quickly finishing this story.
(08:19):
When basically we finally actually got to it, I treated
them and they got pregnant, you know, and I was
at that point really what was really interesting for me
was the fact that they didn't have that desperation, that
high level anxiety of like, oh my god, if this
doesn't work, my life was going to be over, you know.
(08:40):
And so at that moment I decided, Okay, you know what,
even if this treatment wasn't the thing that made them pregnant,
right and again, remember this is way before my thesis,
my master's thesis, and our data, you know, our study
and all of that, and I'll talk about that in
a moment. But so at that point, I really didn't
(09:01):
know if this was the thing that was working. And
so I decided though, that from that moment onwards, I
was going to call out only to people who had
been trying for two years or more, who typically had
failed through IVF, who had experienced miscarriages, and who really
had been struggling to have a baby for more than
(09:23):
two years. And so after those two women, why that
was what I spent the next ten years doing. Is like,
because at the two year mark, I realized that they
weren't so desperate and it was more of this kind
of like and also I like a challenge, you know,
(09:43):
it's kind of like it's much for me. It has
always been much more interesting when it's a very difficult
and very complex case. And so that I can kind
of dive deep into.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
I want you to talk a little bit about and
then we're going to get more into detail, how why
this topic subject? Why this for you?
Speaker 2 (10:08):
So you know, it's really funny because I just knew
when I was graduating, you know, and it was funny
because I used to work for an obstitucian gynacologist and
at the time I was thinking, you know, we used
to get all these cute babies coming into the office,
and I used to get lovely cuddles, and so, you know,
(10:30):
the moms used to go in for their six week
post natal check up, and it was the receptionist that
used to have to take care of the baby whilst
they were screaming and crying whilst the mother was you know,
in the in the rooms, and so it was just
really lovely because usually they would stop crying when they
were held, and then by the time the mom came out,
they were either asleep or kind of settled, and then
(10:52):
I could give them back. So that was really really lovely.
And so I thought, in my ignorance that if I
special in pediatrics, I wanted to specialize in something. I
knew that I wanted to master a topic, and I
didn't really care at the time what it was going
to be, but I just knew that I wanted to
be the best in the world at something, and pediatrics
(11:13):
was that kind of like, oh, it's interesting, But then
my boss, there's something to me that I will never forget,
he goes Gabriella, that is the worst idea you've ever had.
Your patient will not be your patient. Your patient is
the parent of your patient, and your patient can't speak. No,
that's a bad idea. I'm like, oh, yes, you have
a very good point. So I went back to kind
(11:35):
of scratch, so to speak, and started to rethink what
else could I do? And my other consideration, I guess,
is that I really wanted to make an impactful difference
that was lasting, a sort of legacy, you know, and
I felt that babies had something to do with that.
And then I realized that, okay, you know, one way
(11:58):
to make the world a better place is making it
one healthier baby at a time. And that was kind
of the thing that just, I don't know, delusion, whatever
you call it. It was just a thing that made
me kind of go, Actually, I can see myself having
this conversation for the next twenty years, you know, As
it turns out, it's been twenty five, you know, so far,
(12:21):
and it's being a conversation that has kept me going
and that I've developed new interests and new passion for
it at different stages for different reasons, you know. So
I've had to kind of like really reconnect with the
why of what I do what I do many times
in those twenty five years, as I'm sure anybody who
(12:43):
has been in any career, you know, in one career.
I mean, by these days, a child at twenty five
has had twenty five careers, you know. So it's like,
we don't know that it's going to be very similar
for everybody moving on from here, but certainly for people
who have had one career for a very long time time,
you know that you have to kind of spark that
(13:04):
passion in some other way, you know. And for me
it was through doing different degrees and learning different things
and adding to my ability to demonstrate results at the
level that we do, which is literally we only treat
couples who have been trying to conceive or have experienced
in fertility or failed treatments on average actually for four years.
(13:29):
And so that was the result of my master's thesis
at Harvard when I did my master's with public health there,
that was what I did. I actually dove deep into
doing studying my own program, and it turned out that
even though in the beginning with those two women that
I realized that Okay, actually this does work. We had
the study had a cohort of five hundred and forty
(13:50):
four patients, and we were able to demonstrate a seventy
eight point eight percent live birth rate, most of which
were natural conceptions. So forty seven point seven of those
was natural conception. So that and you know, almost fifty
percent had experienced failed IF treatments before coming to us,
and fifty one point five had experienced miscarriages before coming
(14:13):
to us. So and even though most people were told
you need donor egg, only five point six percent actually did.
So what was really interesting is that when I look
back at young Gabriella, you know, at the beginning of
these two cases, that I thought, well, I don't know
if this is enough. Now I know it's everything they need,
you know, so I'm likely in a very different place
(14:35):
from that perspective. But it's just really it's it's really
heartwarming actually to look at the journey from that lens,
because I don't actually stop to do that very often.
And what we've been able to do, it's been quite
a fascinated journey.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
To feel the passion you have for this. But we
we're we got what the hell are you doing differently.
So let me let me behold on before we have that.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
Yeah, set the stage for us. We've got you're a
naturopathic physician. Okay, so obviously or not. I mean, we've
got what allopathic doctors on one end medicine on one.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Set the stage for us. What's the difference?
Speaker 2 (15:18):
Yeah, yeah, and yeah sure. So basically, you know, the
journey for couples who are struggling to conceive in twenty
twenty five is very much and I really truly hope
that's why I actually went to do my doctorate because
I want to change the healthcare system because it is
so broken, especially for people who are struggling to conceive.
(15:41):
And I'll explain why, but basically, what happens when people
are infertility is the only diagnosis that is self reported
based on time. So all that you need to be
considered quote unquote and fertile is you've been trying for
twelve months. You go to your doctor and you say,
I've been trying to have a baby for the last
twelve months and it hasn't happened. So at that point
(16:03):
in the three to five minute consultation you are going
to have, they're going to hand you over a referral
and you're going to see either an endoctrinologist or a
IVF doctor or a gynecologist, someone who basically is going
to do some more tests in terms of fertility, typically
for the woman, it should be for both partners because
(16:25):
fertility is a team sport and it's a fifty to
fifty equation. So that's the first thing that I do differently,
is I treat couples. I don't treat just one person, Okay,
so yeah, I treat both partners. That's the first thing,
and that is a critical critical piece of why we
get the kinds of results we do. So then once
(16:49):
they go to that appointment, literally what's going to happen
next is that they're going to be told, look, you
know you're getting older, you need IVF, you need to
hurry up, you're running out of time, and so they're
going to ibfy. Nine have started IVF cycles, and mind you,
a huge percentage of people don't go into IVF because
they can't afford it, so they're looking for other options.
(17:09):
But twenty nine percent of IVF cycles that are started
yield a baby at the end of it. So if
seventy one percent fail Okay, So what happens at that
point people are literally told it's a numbers game. Better
like next time, we were learning your body. This time,
now listen, if you're going to learn my body, don't
(17:30):
charge me twenty thousand dollars for your trial and error.
You know, So like, let's figure out a better way
for you to learn my body. But that's a whole
other story. And so basically what ends up happening is
that once they go and do that cycle and it
hasn't worked, they're usually just told exactly those things and
told to go into another cycle. Now, population data shows
(17:53):
us there was a study that was publishing Human reproduction
and was one hundred and seventy eight thousand cycles, and
it's shows that on average, in order to get close
to an eighty percent life birth rate, they needed eight cycles.
Eight cycles. Now, I don't know who wants to experience
three miscarriages before they get investigated or have eight cycles
(18:17):
to get pregnant. Like the people who literally have reports
self report infertility go into an AVF cycle and have
a baby from that are very very rare. But that's
what we see publicized in the media, right, That's what
we see. So people expect that they're going to go
into IVFIN, they're going to end up with a baby,
(18:37):
like they literally equate those two things, and it's not
an equal equation, right, It literally is not. And so
that's also the part where I do things very differently.
I want to know what is making you need AVF
to begin with. If five VF has failed, I want
to know why, what are the obstacles that have left
(19:00):
to that outcome, Because usually when we're talking about inability
to conceive, inability to keep a healthy pregnancy to term,
those are results of many biochemical chain reactions that start
way upstream, and so what ends up happening is that
when we are trying to address those issues by just
(19:21):
focusing on getting the egg and the sperm together hoping
for a baby, it fails more than it succeeds. Whereas
the place of leverage that we have to optimize those
gamings is really much much much sooner. And it is
not just about the egg. It's about the egg and
the sperm. Because forty percent of the reasons why infertility, miscarriage,
(19:43):
fil treatments happen is because of male factor. Forty percent
is because of female factor, and twenty percent is because
of embryonic factors and others. But you know, that's really
what it comes down to, is that there is a
misclassification of the problem. Okay in steam therapy. So basically
what happens is that people are told you have infertility. Okay, why,
(20:07):
oh it's unexplained. Excuse me? In what planet do you
fix a problem you don't know you have? Right, and
hence fire, the results aren't as great as they could be.
And so again I've turned that on its head. I
want to find what are the obstacles. I want to
define the problem. I want to have proper diagnoses, diagnoses
(20:29):
and diagnostic tests. I want to really understand what is
getting in the way so that we can then actually
figure out what is going to be the best strategy.
Because you can line up ten men with low sperm
orphology utility account and you can have ten different reasons
as to why, and usually it's all very generic.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
I realized this podcast biochemistry and so forth of fertility.
But stepping back a little bit, you said you treat
the couple, how do you how what does that mean
to treat the man in this sense?
Speaker 2 (21:09):
Yeah, that's a great question. Yeah, So The first thing
is that I look at where are they at, Like literally,
I want to understand what's happening. What are their exposures,
what are the things that they're doing, What are the
things that they're not doing that they need to be doing,
you know. So really I'm taking a very in depth
case of just to give you an idea. Our initial
(21:32):
intake questionnaire is fifty pages. I'm asking everything from how
they commute to work, because if a guy commutes on
a cycle or a motorcycle in peak out traffic, I
know pollution is going to be a problem. I know
heat to the testicles is going to be a problem.
I know that there's obviously an increased risk of other
(21:52):
aspects that are going to impact him in terms of
you know, possible accidents, stress, you know, all of those things.
So just by asking the question of how do you
commute to work and how long do you commute for,
I have an immense amount of information about his exposures
in the day to day and so then I can say, oh, Rash,
is this somewhere where we need to intervene or is
(22:14):
it not? And sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't.
For one man, it might be that he sits on
a tractor engine because he's a farmer in a field
that has been sprayed with pesticides, and you know, and
he's literally heating up his testicles all day long. Those
factors are absolutely going to be a major factor and
(22:36):
a major problem. And of course the recommendations for someone
like that is going to be very different to someone
who takes the ferry to work. You know, so who
is having a different scenery, who's in the ocean, who
is you know, kind of not having to worry about
traffic and being you know, not run over by other
(22:56):
motorists and whatever else. So can you see that just
in that there are multiple possibilities, and then you take
that and your times are by a million inputs because
there's so many different things that we're doing all day
today that we don't even think about picking up the
receipts that you get from the cashier that is laden
(23:19):
with BPA, this fannel a and other bis fannels and
thaltes and all of those things that are demonstrated to
be endocrime disruptors and imbalance hormones and negatively impact equality
sperm quality. Now, if you are a cashier and you're
holding that all day every day, and then you're touching
your face, you're touching your hair, you are covered in
(23:40):
under crime disruptors all day long. So you see, in
the most indefensive places, we need to be aware of
where do those exploders come from? And that is just
a tip of the iceberg of what people are exposed to.
Because then there are the actionable items that people actually
engage in. Some people eat McDonald's seven days a week.
(24:03):
Other people have a vegan organic you know, in which
vegan organic is also a problem if I diet that
you know, don't get enough protein. Other people have a
good Meriterranean diet like you know, So then you have
to kind of figure out, okay, what are all of
the components that make up this human being? As a
(24:23):
first question, what is it that is the twenty percent
of the effort that is going to give us eighty
percent of a result? And here we're trying to look
at changing systems like not just you know, oh you
need to eat this food. It's not that. It's about okay,
how can we structure a life around not having to
(24:44):
think about the things you need to do? So then
we're looking at building new systems to figure out how
do we fit into those systems in a way that
actually optimizes our health, fertility, emotional wellbeing, you know, et cetera.
And then we're also looking at at the diagnostics, the
labs and the additional tests, which you know, if you
(25:05):
go to a GP to go to tell them that
you're infertile, they will have to do four tests, and
only four tests. They need to check for the patiency
of the Filippine troops to see that they're clear. They
need to make sure that a woman is ovulating, so
they will do a progesterone test, and you know how
accurate that is it is another question. They will then
have to look at the uterests to see canny carry
a pregnancy to term. And then finally, if the partner
(25:29):
is there, there will be the recommendation to do a
semen analysis. But usually the partner is not there, and
so what happens is that they're told her, you know,
your husband probably needs a semin analysis. The woman goes
home and says to her husband, you need a semen analysis.
He'll go nah, right, and so it's like, well, actually,
yeah you do. And you know, so then after those
(25:53):
three or four tests, they're basically told, we've done all
the tests and everything is normal. There is no bigger lie.
There is no bigger lie. And it's not because the
doctor is trying to be malicious or you know, it's
because the guideline that they received from their professional association
(26:13):
then from the healthcare system is these are the only
things you need to check. As long as you've checked that,
you've done your job. Wow.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
Wow, wow, it's broken, to say the least. We don't
have a lot of time, but I'm speaking with Gabriella Rosa,
a founder and CEO of the Rosa Institute, the world's
first entirely virtual and holistic fertility clinic. Let's talk a
little bit about that. How did that come about?
Speaker 2 (26:43):
It came about from me realizing that I didn't have
sixty patient facing patient hours a week anymore. After I've
had my first child, and I was very much in
a situation where my kid did not sleep for more
than twenty minutes or an hour and minutes all the
way through the day and night for the first nine
months of his life. And so I was like, who
(27:05):
am I? What is my name again? I forget and
I realized that, okay, I can't keep the pace that
I was able to keep when before he was born.
You know, I used to literally start work at five
point thirty, you know, six o'clock in the morning and
go for the next ten or eleven hours and do
that six days a week. And and so that made
(27:28):
me really question, one, do I continue doing what I'm doing?
That was that was at one point was definitely a question.
I remember it was about three months two months, three
months into having had him, that I'm thinking, I don't
know that I can keep doing life like this, you know,
like continue running a practice, continue And I actually thought
(27:50):
of shutting down my practice for you know, like a moment,
and my mom goes, don't be crazy, don't do that.
I'm like, what, Like, I thought that you would want
me to take care of my child. She goes, you
know what, your child will grow and you know they
will leave, and then what what are you left with?
I'm like, oh, my god. My mother. By the way,
(28:11):
she's a primary school teacher for thirty five years of
five year olds, right, and so she is no nonsense,
like she is that woman you know, like, don't you
there do with me? She's hardcore, and so you know
when she were like, well, she just had that to me.
I'm thinking that she's going to coddle me, and like,
(28:32):
you know, go oh it's okay. I'm like she's like no,
I'm like, oh god. But it was the best thing
that she did. It was, you know, because she she
literally made me see that that is true. You know.
You now, I'm so grateful and thankful that I didn't
make that and my son is thirteen and literally driving
(28:52):
me insane. Jake, I love you. If you ever watched
this or listen to this, I still love you, you know.
But it was It's just one of those really funny
things that you know, I realized, all right, I need
to do something else. So I decided to pivot entirely
into I already had fifty percent of the people who
were coming to me were literally calling into the clinic,
(29:14):
not coming into the clinic, and so I'm like literally
on the cord a telephone, you know, those old things.
And so basically that was when I decided that, well,
that makes no sense for me to have to get
dressed up, put it on, makeup, do all of these things.
And at the time, the conversions of technology with the
ability to like reach people at a much cheaper rage.
(29:35):
I don't know if you remember, but you know, like
in the nineties used to cost like twenty five dollars
a minutes to call overseas. These you know, by twenty twelve,
twenty thirteen, we had a situation where Skype was making
calling overseas virtually free, and so that was the opportunity
that I saw of going, all right, these people are
(29:56):
not coming in. I am a host partum speeding mother
who can't even remember her name and needs to work
less hours. And luckily I could still remember my work.
But it was just like, you know, it was really
a very difficult time for me, and I did not
care if it was going to fail. I was just like,
(30:17):
you know what, if this thing breaks down, shut down,
Like at that point, I just didn't care because I
was so exhausted. And that was a great gift and blessing.
Speaker 4 (30:29):
Yeah, exactly exactly, And I was really at that place,
and because I wanted that place, I couldn't care less
if it worked, if it didn't work, Like I was
just like, you know what, I just need to get
a night sleep.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
I don't really care what else goes on after that,
And so I did that and it worked, and I
was like, oh my god. And then all of a
sudden we were seeing people from all over the world.
We were running the Fertility Challenge program, which is a
free educational program to thousands of people. We were like,
it just completely changed everything. And then I just decided that, Okay,
(31:04):
this is a good idea. So I've really focused heavily
on creating the process deliberately as a result of like
it just happening to me. And now it's been over
two hundred and four thousand people in more than one
hundred and eleven countries, and it's it's being you know,
(31:26):
an interesting journey that's.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
Breakthrough overcoming infertility and recurrenments one of them. Yes, we'll
have that linked up here at the Sooners page, but
as we kind of want.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
Yes, And by the way, guy, just so you know,
the book is free on Spotify and YouTube, so people
can listen to it. They can for free and all that.
It's available also in booksellers, but you know, I made
it free because I've really wanted people to be able
to have access to the information that can transform their life,
(31:58):
and so they can go and search it in those places.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
More about you and what you're doing.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
They can go to Fertility breaksthrough dot com or they
can google me, which is Gabriella Rosa. Gabriello is g
A B R I E L A R O s
A Gabriella Rosa type Gabriella versa. On Google. You will
find me for sure if you add fertility bonus points
to you. And and really, fertility Breakthrough dot com is
(32:27):
the portal to all the things. And I'm in every
social media platform, so they'll find it there.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
To your passion is seriously and your humor is just infectious, and.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
I yeah, you're You're so nice to be here.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
Thank you so much for being here. All right, we'll
be in touch.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Thank you,
Welcome to the Trauma Theriver's podcast. My name is Gamiferson
and I interview incredible people who share the story of
how trauma has shaped their lives. And a big thank
you for sponsoring today's episode goes to my guest and
our sponsors Kody five four three two one. Our folks,
(00:24):
welcome back to the podcast. Very excited to have as
Mike us today. Gabriella Rosa. Gabriella, welcome, Thank you so
much for having me, guys.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
It's lovely to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
O of the Rosa Institute, the world's first entirely virtual
and holistic fertility clinic. She's a Harvard trained fertility specialist
who has spent decades not only treating the biological side
of reproductive health, but also holding space for the psychological
pain that comes with it. Her clinical insights are matched
by her deep empathy for what our patients go through
(00:56):
and her belief that we need to start calling this
what it is, trauma that deserves to be witnessed and
treated with compassion. I love that, Gabriella. Before we get
going show with the listeners, where you're from originally and
where you are currently. Then we'll dive in.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
So I was born in Brazil, i was raised in Australia,
and I've lived in Boston for a few years now,
so I've lived in other places too. It's just so
happens that when people ask me where are you from,
I'm like, I have to literally stop and think, It's like,
where am I from?
Speaker 1 (01:34):
How does this start? For you? How did all this begin?
Speaker 2 (01:41):
It started a long time ago. Two thousand and one
is when I graduated and thought that I would change
the world by helping people have healthy babies. And it
was really interesting because how it started is certainly not
how it's going, you know, because what ended up happening
was that in the beginning, I used to have patients
(02:02):
who would come to me just wanted to prepare, and
in fact, I think that was more my focus. You
know that I was young, I was a new graduate.
I didn't really know kind of, you know, exactly the
focus that I was going to my career was going
to take. And it wasn't even you know, I was
about to say the career, the focus that I was
(02:22):
going to give my career, And the truth is that
it was the people who showed up in my rooms
that gave me the focus that my career ended up
taking because when I first started in my decision to
support people who wanted to have healthy babies, I was
very much thinking about preconception preparation, you know, and what
(02:43):
it is that people needed to do as a couple
unit to be able to get their bodies healthy, to
be able to get their gammy so to speak, you know,
to be the best possible to be able to create
a baby. About ten years into doing that, I have
a lady that is referred in my rooms who basically
(03:04):
has been trying to get pregnant for ten years. She
essentially had been told she had had multiple filed IDF cycles.
She had been told that, you know, getting older, it's
probably your eggs. The reality was that it was much
more than juerr eggs. There were lots of things that
were going on. And as much as I felt kind
(03:24):
of out of my depth at that point, and I
did tell her that, I said, listen, I don't know
that what I do is going to really be the
thing that's going to support you to have the baby
that you want, but let's try and see what happens.
I can certainly help to improve your health. And so
based on that agreement, we decided to move forward about
four months three and a half. Four months later, she
(03:45):
was pregnant for the first time in ten years, naturally
with her own eggs. So that to me was like
a big kind of life. Is this real? Truly? Yeah.
I was treating her as a naturopathic doctor, and I
was supporting naturopathy. We focused very much on the physical, emotional, mental,
(04:09):
spiritual aspects of a being. And I already had framework,
you know, process that I was kind of helping people
with so that I didn't forget things. I had kind
of like, for lack of a better way to describe it,
a master checklist, you know that I basically used to
go through and really kind of make sure have all
(04:29):
of these things being checked. And so once she got pregnant,
I was dubious. I was skeptical of that result. And
I really thought, like, lad, I, you know, it's it's
so easy to brush it off as kind of like
(04:53):
got pregnant. It was lucky, she got lucky, you know,
she finally got lucky and she got pregnant. It just
so happened that the association was that I was in
her life at that time, So that was kind of
what I brushed it off to and somebody there in
a few months after her taked to me with nineteen
years of the fertility. It's very similar story the f
(05:17):
cycles that failed, other treatments that had failed. And at
this point I was I was kind of less unwilling
to take her on because the first lady I was
kind of unwilling. I was like, look, I don't know.
I actually tried to convince her not to be treated
by me. She's like, no, no, no, I'm going to
give up anyway, so you might as well treat me.
(05:38):
So I was like, okay, alright, let's do this. And
so the second lady, I was kind of like, look,
I don't know if this is going to happen for
you in terms of treatment, if that's going to be
enough after everything you've been through. But there is this
lady that I just treated that got pregnant after ten years,
so we may as well be going to go and
see what happens. So went about five months later, this
(05:59):
woman is praying. I'm like, okay, this sounds like a
this is a big coincidence, and even so I am
going to shift what I do right now. And that
was the pivot point for me because what I learned
or what I experienced with these two women because they
had completely this detached themselves from the need for the outcome.
(06:26):
They basically they didn't have that level of anxiety and
desperation that is so hard in this kind of situation
when you're treating people who you know in that first year.
It's hard to treat people in that first year because
the look the second one was absolutely like she was
(06:52):
dragged in my office by her husband, like she didn't
even want to be there. She was rude. She was
just like, oh my god, really sit here and look
at this woman's face. That was kind of the feeling
that I had, you know, And I have to take
put if so I said, listen, if you don't want
to do this, you don't have to so, but you
have to decide, like I'm not going to waste my
(07:12):
time or yours by you kind of being half in
half out. So and I'll call it with my patience,
I have always called it like I'm not you know,
kind of I have to step on the eggshells with
them because even though I find that people appreciate even
though they've gone through so much, and there is a
high chance that they may be disappointed, you know, when
(07:37):
they go through fertility treatment out there in the world,
because seventy one percent of IVF cycles fail. But it
is literally that high. And this is a population data,
which means that people have been conditioned to expect that
they will go through fertility treatment after they've been through
(07:57):
a couple of cycles and it might not work. So
it's one of those things that you know, and it's
very different because it's very interesting how different stages of
the journey, and now I've seen it all, I can
really very much delineate people at different stages in that journey.
But this couple just very finished, quickly finishing this story.
(08:19):
When basically we finally actually got to it, I treated
them and they got pregnant, you know, and I was
at that point really what was really interesting for me
was the fact that they didn't have that desperation, that
high level anxiety of like, oh my god, if this
doesn't work, my life was going to be over, you know.
(08:40):
And so at that moment I decided, Okay, you know what,
even if this treatment wasn't the thing that made them pregnant,
right and again, remember this is way before my thesis,
my master's thesis, and our data, you know, our study
and all of that, and I'll talk about that in
a moment. But so at that point, I really didn't
(09:01):
know if this was the thing that was working. And
so I decided though, that from that moment onwards, I
was going to call out only to people who had
been trying for two years or more, who typically had
failed through IVF, who had experienced miscarriages, and who really
had been struggling to have a baby for more than
(09:23):
two years. And so after those two women, why that
was what I spent the next ten years doing. Is like,
because at the two year mark, I realized that they
weren't so desperate and it was more of this kind
of like and also I like a challenge, you know,
(09:43):
it's kind of like it's much for me. It has
always been much more interesting when it's a very difficult
and very complex case. And so that I can kind
of dive deep into.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
I want you to talk a little bit about and
then we're going to get more into detail, how why
this topic subject? Why this for you?
Speaker 2 (10:08):
So you know, it's really funny because I just knew
when I was graduating, you know, and it was funny
because I used to work for an obstitucian gynacologist and
at the time I was thinking, you know, we used
to get all these cute babies coming into the office,
and I used to get lovely cuddles, and so, you know,
(10:30):
the moms used to go in for their six week
post natal check up, and it was the receptionist that
used to have to take care of the baby whilst
they were screaming and crying whilst the mother was you know,
in the in the rooms, and so it was just
really lovely because usually they would stop crying when they
were held, and then by the time the mom came out,
they were either asleep or kind of settled, and then
(10:52):
I could give them back. So that was really really lovely.
And so I thought, in my ignorance that if I
special in pediatrics, I wanted to specialize in something. I
knew that I wanted to master a topic, and I
didn't really care at the time what it was going
to be, but I just knew that I wanted to
be the best in the world at something, and pediatrics
(11:13):
was that kind of like, oh, it's interesting, But then
my boss, there's something to me that I will never forget,
he goes Gabriella, that is the worst idea you've ever had.
Your patient will not be your patient. Your patient is
the parent of your patient, and your patient can't speak. No,
that's a bad idea. I'm like, oh, yes, you have
a very good point. So I went back to kind
(11:35):
of scratch, so to speak, and started to rethink what
else could I do? And my other consideration, I guess,
is that I really wanted to make an impactful difference
that was lasting, a sort of legacy, you know, and
I felt that babies had something to do with that.
And then I realized that, okay, you know, one way
(11:58):
to make the world a better place is making it
one healthier baby at a time. And that was kind
of the thing that just, I don't know, delusion, whatever
you call it. It was just a thing that made
me kind of go, Actually, I can see myself having
this conversation for the next twenty years, you know, As
it turns out, it's been twenty five, you know, so far,
(12:21):
and it's being a conversation that has kept me going
and that I've developed new interests and new passion for
it at different stages for different reasons, you know. So
I've had to kind of like really reconnect with the
why of what I do what I do many times
in those twenty five years, as I'm sure anybody who
(12:43):
has been in any career, you know, in one career.
I mean, by these days, a child at twenty five
has had twenty five careers, you know. So it's like,
we don't know that it's going to be very similar
for everybody moving on from here, but certainly for people
who have had one career for a very long time time,
you know that you have to kind of spark that
(13:04):
passion in some other way, you know. And for me
it was through doing different degrees and learning different things
and adding to my ability to demonstrate results at the
level that we do, which is literally we only treat
couples who have been trying to conceive or have experienced
in fertility or failed treatments on average actually for four years.
(13:29):
And so that was the result of my master's thesis
at Harvard when I did my master's with public health there,
that was what I did. I actually dove deep into
doing studying my own program, and it turned out that
even though in the beginning with those two women that
I realized that Okay, actually this does work. We had
the study had a cohort of five hundred and forty
(13:50):
four patients, and we were able to demonstrate a seventy
eight point eight percent live birth rate, most of which
were natural conceptions. So forty seven point seven of those
was natural conception. So that and you know, almost fifty
percent had experienced failed IF treatments before coming to us,
and fifty one point five had experienced miscarriages before coming
(14:13):
to us. So and even though most people were told
you need donor egg, only five point six percent actually did.
So what was really interesting is that when I look
back at young Gabriella, you know, at the beginning of
these two cases, that I thought, well, I don't know
if this is enough. Now I know it's everything they need,
you know, so I'm likely in a very different place
(14:35):
from that perspective. But it's just really it's it's really
heartwarming actually to look at the journey from that lens,
because I don't actually stop to do that very often.
And what we've been able to do, it's been quite
a fascinated journey.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
To feel the passion you have for this. But we
we're we got what the hell are you doing differently.
So let me let me behold on before we have that.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
Yeah, set the stage for us. We've got you're a
naturopathic physician. Okay, so obviously or not. I mean, we've
got what allopathic doctors on one end medicine on one.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Set the stage for us. What's the difference?
Speaker 2 (15:18):
Yeah, yeah, and yeah sure. So basically, you know, the
journey for couples who are struggling to conceive in twenty
twenty five is very much and I really truly hope
that's why I actually went to do my doctorate because
I want to change the healthcare system because it is
so broken, especially for people who are struggling to conceive.
(15:41):
And I'll explain why, but basically, what happens when people
are infertility is the only diagnosis that is self reported
based on time. So all that you need to be
considered quote unquote and fertile is you've been trying for
twelve months. You go to your doctor and you say,
I've been trying to have a baby for the last
twelve months and it hasn't happened. So at that point
(16:03):
in the three to five minute consultation you are going
to have, they're going to hand you over a referral
and you're going to see either an endoctrinologist or a
IVF doctor or a gynecologist, someone who basically is going
to do some more tests in terms of fertility, typically
for the woman, it should be for both partners because
(16:25):
fertility is a team sport and it's a fifty to
fifty equation. So that's the first thing that I do differently,
is I treat couples. I don't treat just one person, Okay,
so yeah, I treat both partners. That's the first thing,
and that is a critical critical piece of why we
get the kinds of results we do. So then once
(16:49):
they go to that appointment, literally what's going to happen
next is that they're going to be told, look, you
know you're getting older, you need IVF, you need to
hurry up, you're running out of time, and so they're
going to ibfy. Nine have started IVF cycles, and mind you,
a huge percentage of people don't go into IVF because
they can't afford it, so they're looking for other options.
(17:09):
But twenty nine percent of IVF cycles that are started
yield a baby at the end of it. So if
seventy one percent fail Okay, So what happens at that
point people are literally told it's a numbers game. Better
like next time, we were learning your body. This time,
now listen, if you're going to learn my body, don't
(17:30):
charge me twenty thousand dollars for your trial and error.
You know, So like, let's figure out a better way
for you to learn my body. But that's a whole
other story. And so basically what ends up happening is
that once they go and do that cycle and it
hasn't worked, they're usually just told exactly those things and
told to go into another cycle. Now, population data shows
(17:53):
us there was a study that was publishing Human reproduction
and was one hundred and seventy eight thousand cycles, and
it's shows that on average, in order to get close
to an eighty percent life birth rate, they needed eight cycles.
Eight cycles. Now, I don't know who wants to experience
three miscarriages before they get investigated or have eight cycles
(18:17):
to get pregnant. Like the people who literally have reports
self report infertility go into an AVF cycle and have
a baby from that are very very rare. But that's
what we see publicized in the media, right, That's what
we see. So people expect that they're going to go
into IVFIN, they're going to end up with a baby,
(18:37):
like they literally equate those two things, and it's not
an equal equation, right, It literally is not. And so
that's also the part where I do things very differently.
I want to know what is making you need AVF
to begin with. If five VF has failed, I want
to know why, what are the obstacles that have left
(19:00):
to that outcome, Because usually when we're talking about inability
to conceive, inability to keep a healthy pregnancy to term,
those are results of many biochemical chain reactions that start
way upstream, and so what ends up happening is that
when we are trying to address those issues by just
(19:21):
focusing on getting the egg and the sperm together hoping
for a baby, it fails more than it succeeds. Whereas
the place of leverage that we have to optimize those
gamings is really much much much sooner. And it is
not just about the egg. It's about the egg and
the sperm. Because forty percent of the reasons why infertility, miscarriage,
(19:43):
fil treatments happen is because of male factor. Forty percent
is because of female factor, and twenty percent is because
of embryonic factors and others. But you know, that's really
what it comes down to, is that there is a
misclassification of the problem. Okay in steam therapy. So basically
what happens is that people are told you have infertility. Okay, why,
(20:07):
oh it's unexplained. Excuse me? In what planet do you
fix a problem you don't know you have? Right, and
hence fire, the results aren't as great as they could be.
And so again I've turned that on its head. I
want to find what are the obstacles. I want to
define the problem. I want to have proper diagnoses, diagnoses
(20:29):
and diagnostic tests. I want to really understand what is
getting in the way so that we can then actually
figure out what is going to be the best strategy.
Because you can line up ten men with low sperm
orphology utility account and you can have ten different reasons
as to why, and usually it's all very generic.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
I realized this podcast biochemistry and so forth of fertility.
But stepping back a little bit, you said you treat
the couple, how do you how what does that mean
to treat the man in this sense?
Speaker 2 (21:09):
Yeah, that's a great question. Yeah, So The first thing
is that I look at where are they at, Like literally,
I want to understand what's happening. What are their exposures,
what are the things that they're doing, What are the
things that they're not doing that they need to be doing,
you know. So really I'm taking a very in depth
case of just to give you an idea. Our initial
(21:32):
intake questionnaire is fifty pages. I'm asking everything from how
they commute to work, because if a guy commutes on
a cycle or a motorcycle in peak out traffic, I
know pollution is going to be a problem. I know
heat to the testicles is going to be a problem.
I know that there's obviously an increased risk of other
(21:52):
aspects that are going to impact him in terms of
you know, possible accidents, stress, you know, all of those things.
So just by asking the question of how do you
commute to work and how long do you commute for,
I have an immense amount of information about his exposures
in the day to day and so then I can say, oh, Rash,
is this somewhere where we need to intervene or is
(22:14):
it not? And sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't.
For one man, it might be that he sits on
a tractor engine because he's a farmer in a field
that has been sprayed with pesticides, and you know, and
he's literally heating up his testicles all day long. Those
factors are absolutely going to be a major factor and
(22:36):
a major problem. And of course the recommendations for someone
like that is going to be very different to someone
who takes the ferry to work. You know, so who
is having a different scenery, who's in the ocean, who
is you know, kind of not having to worry about
traffic and being you know, not run over by other
(22:56):
motorists and whatever else. So can you see that just
in that there are multiple possibilities, and then you take
that and your times are by a million inputs because
there's so many different things that we're doing all day
today that we don't even think about picking up the
receipts that you get from the cashier that is laden
(23:19):
with BPA, this fannel a and other bis fannels and
thaltes and all of those things that are demonstrated to
be endocrime disruptors and imbalance hormones and negatively impact equality
sperm quality. Now, if you are a cashier and you're
holding that all day every day, and then you're touching
your face, you're touching your hair, you are covered in
(23:40):
under crime disruptors all day long. So you see, in
the most indefensive places, we need to be aware of
where do those exploders come from? And that is just
a tip of the iceberg of what people are exposed to.
Because then there are the actionable items that people actually
engage in. Some people eat McDonald's seven days a week.
(24:03):
Other people have a vegan organic you know, in which
vegan organic is also a problem if I diet that
you know, don't get enough protein. Other people have a
good Meriterranean diet like you know, So then you have
to kind of figure out, okay, what are all of
the components that make up this human being? As a
(24:23):
first question, what is it that is the twenty percent
of the effort that is going to give us eighty
percent of a result? And here we're trying to look
at changing systems like not just you know, oh you
need to eat this food. It's not that. It's about okay,
how can we structure a life around not having to
(24:44):
think about the things you need to do? So then
we're looking at building new systems to figure out how
do we fit into those systems in a way that
actually optimizes our health, fertility, emotional wellbeing, you know, et cetera.
And then we're also looking at at the diagnostics, the
labs and the additional tests, which you know, if you
(25:05):
go to a GP to go to tell them that
you're infertile, they will have to do four tests, and
only four tests. They need to check for the patiency
of the Filippine troops to see that they're clear. They
need to make sure that a woman is ovulating, so
they will do a progesterone test, and you know how
accurate that is it is another question. They will then
have to look at the uterests to see canny carry
a pregnancy to term. And then finally, if the partner
(25:29):
is there, there will be the recommendation to do a
semen analysis. But usually the partner is not there, and
so what happens is that they're told her, you know,
your husband probably needs a semin analysis. The woman goes
home and says to her husband, you need a semen analysis.
He'll go nah, right, and so it's like, well, actually,
yeah you do. And you know, so then after those
(25:53):
three or four tests, they're basically told, we've done all
the tests and everything is normal. There is no bigger lie.
There is no bigger lie. And it's not because the
doctor is trying to be malicious or you know, it's
because the guideline that they received from their professional association
(26:13):
then from the healthcare system is these are the only
things you need to check. As long as you've checked that,
you've done your job. Wow.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
Wow, wow, it's broken, to say the least. We don't
have a lot of time, but I'm speaking with Gabriella Rosa,
a founder and CEO of the Rosa Institute, the world's
first entirely virtual and holistic fertility clinic. Let's talk a
little bit about that. How did that come about?
Speaker 2 (26:43):
It came about from me realizing that I didn't have
sixty patient facing patient hours a week anymore. After I've
had my first child, and I was very much in
a situation where my kid did not sleep for more
than twenty minutes or an hour and minutes all the
way through the day and night for the first nine
months of his life. And so I was like, who
(27:05):
am I? What is my name again? I forget and
I realized that, okay, I can't keep the pace that
I was able to keep when before he was born.
You know, I used to literally start work at five
point thirty, you know, six o'clock in the morning and
go for the next ten or eleven hours and do
that six days a week. And and so that made
(27:28):
me really question, one, do I continue doing what I'm doing?
That was that was at one point was definitely a question.
I remember it was about three months two months, three
months into having had him, that I'm thinking, I don't
know that I can keep doing life like this, you know,
like continue running a practice, continue And I actually thought
(27:50):
of shutting down my practice for you know, like a moment,
and my mom goes, don't be crazy, don't do that.
I'm like, what, Like, I thought that you would want
me to take care of my child. She goes, you
know what, your child will grow and you know they
will leave, and then what what are you left with?
I'm like, oh, my god. My mother. By the way,
(28:11):
she's a primary school teacher for thirty five years of
five year olds, right, and so she is no nonsense,
like she is that woman you know, like, don't you
there do with me? She's hardcore, and so you know
when she were like, well, she just had that to me.
I'm thinking that she's going to coddle me, and like,
(28:32):
you know, go oh it's okay. I'm like she's like no,
I'm like, oh god. But it was the best thing
that she did. It was, you know, because she she
literally made me see that that is true. You know.
You now, I'm so grateful and thankful that I didn't
make that and my son is thirteen and literally driving
(28:52):
me insane. Jake, I love you. If you ever watched
this or listen to this, I still love you, you know.
But it was It's just one of those really funny
things that you know, I realized, all right, I need
to do something else. So I decided to pivot entirely
into I already had fifty percent of the people who
were coming to me were literally calling into the clinic,
(29:14):
not coming into the clinic, and so I'm like literally
on the cord a telephone, you know, those old things.
And so basically that was when I decided that, well,
that makes no sense for me to have to get
dressed up, put it on, makeup, do all of these things.
And at the time, the conversions of technology with the
ability to like reach people at a much cheaper rage.
(29:35):
I don't know if you remember, but you know, like
in the nineties used to cost like twenty five dollars
a minutes to call overseas. These you know, by twenty twelve,
twenty thirteen, we had a situation where Skype was making
calling overseas virtually free, and so that was the opportunity
that I saw of going, all right, these people are
(29:56):
not coming in. I am a host partum speeding mother
who can't even remember her name and needs to work
less hours. And luckily I could still remember my work.
But it was just like, you know, it was really
a very difficult time for me, and I did not
care if it was going to fail. I was just like,
(30:17):
you know what, if this thing breaks down, shut down,
Like at that point, I just didn't care because I
was so exhausted. And that was a great gift and blessing.
Speaker 4 (30:29):
Yeah, exactly exactly, And I was really at that place,
and because I wanted that place, I couldn't care less
if it worked, if it didn't work, Like I was
just like, you know what, I just need to get
a night sleep.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
I don't really care what else goes on after that,
And so I did that and it worked, and I
was like, oh my god. And then all of a
sudden we were seeing people from all over the world.
We were running the Fertility Challenge program, which is a
free educational program to thousands of people. We were like,
it just completely changed everything. And then I just decided that, Okay,
(31:04):
this is a good idea. So I've really focused heavily
on creating the process deliberately as a result of like
it just happening to me. And now it's been over
two hundred and four thousand people in more than one
hundred and eleven countries, and it's it's being you know,
(31:26):
an interesting journey that's.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
Breakthrough overcoming infertility and recurrenments one of them. Yes, we'll
have that linked up here at the Sooners page, but
as we kind of want.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
Yes, And by the way, guy, just so you know,
the book is free on Spotify and YouTube, so people
can listen to it. They can for free and all that.
It's available also in booksellers, but you know, I made
it free because I've really wanted people to be able
to have access to the information that can transform their life,
(31:58):
and so they can go and search it in those places.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
More about you and what you're doing.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
They can go to Fertility breaksthrough dot com or they
can google me, which is Gabriella Rosa. Gabriello is g
A B R I E L A R O s
A Gabriella Rosa type Gabriella versa. On Google. You will
find me for sure if you add fertility bonus points
to you. And and really, fertility Breakthrough dot com is
(32:27):
the portal to all the things. And I'm in every
social media platform, so they'll find it there.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
To your passion is seriously and your humor is just infectious, and.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
I yeah, you're You're so nice to be here.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
Thank you so much for being here. All right, we'll
be in touch.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Thank you,
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