October 21, 2025 • 31 mins
Katie Baker is a writer, advocate, and childhood abuse survivor who has transformed her journey of trauma and healing into a story of resilience, empowerment, and hope. After years of battling addiction, shame, and the lingering effects of a tumultuous childhood, she found profound transformation through therapeutic psychedelics and deep inner work.
In her memoir, When The Universe Holds Your Hair Back, Katie shares her raw and deeply personal journey—a story of confronting the past, reclaiming lost parts of herself, and embracing a life of authenticity, self-love, and purpose.
From the Amazon description:For years, Katie Baker wore the mask of a woman who had it all together. On the surface, she was a successful professional, a loving mother, and the embodiment of relentless perseverance. But beneath that carefully crafted facade, the cracks were deepening into fractures too wide to ignore. Haunted by a childhood of instability—marked by alcoholic fathers, sexual, physical, and verbal abuse, a lack of protection, and exposure to addiction—she carried her pain like an invisible weight.
In This Episode
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You can learn more about what I do here:
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In her memoir, When The Universe Holds Your Hair Back, Katie shares her raw and deeply personal journey—a story of confronting the past, reclaiming lost parts of herself, and embracing a life of authenticity, self-love, and purpose.
From the Amazon description:For years, Katie Baker wore the mask of a woman who had it all together. On the surface, she was a successful professional, a loving mother, and the embodiment of relentless perseverance. But beneath that carefully crafted facade, the cracks were deepening into fractures too wide to ignore. Haunted by a childhood of instability—marked by alcoholic fathers, sexual, physical, and verbal abuse, a lack of protection, and exposure to addiction—she carried her pain like an invisible weight.
In This Episode
- Katie’s website
- FB @Peace & Fire Healing LLC
- IG: @peaceandfirehealing
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-trauma-therapist--5739761/support.
You can learn more about what I do here:
The Trauma Therapist Newsletter: celebrates the people and voices in the mental health profession. And it's free! Check it out here: https://bit.ly/4jGBeSa
———
If you’d like to support The Trauma Therapist Podcast and the work I do you can do that here with a monthly donation of $5, $7, or $10: Donate to The Trauma Therapist Podcast.
Click here to join my email list and receive podcast updates and other news.
Thank you to our Sponsors:
Incogni - Use code [traumatherapist] and get 60% off annual plans: https://incogni.com/traumatherapist
Jane App - use code GUY1MO at https://jane.app/book_a_demo
Journey Clinical - visit https://join.journeyclinical/trauma for 1 month off your membership
Therapy Wisdom - https://therapywisdom.com/jan/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Trauma Theaver's podcast. My name is guiming
person and I interview incredible people who share the story
of how trauma has shaped their lives. And a big
thank you for sponsoring today's episode goes to my guest
and our sponsors. So five, four, three, two and one,
(00:23):
Our folks, welcome back to the podcast. Very excited to
have us My guest today, Katie Baker, Katie welcome. Thank
you so much, You're welcome. So. Katie is writer, advocate,
and childhood abuse survivor who has transformed her journey of
trauma and healing into story of resilience, empowerment, and hope.
After years of battling addiction, shame, and the lingering effects
(00:44):
of a tumultuous childhood, she found profound transformation through therapeutic
psychedelics and deep in her work. In her memoir When
the Universe Holds Your Hairback, Katie shares her raw and
deeply personal journey, the story of confronting the past, reclaiming
lost parts of herself, and embracing a life of authenticity,
(01:04):
self love, and purpose. And just a little bit from
the description. The Amazon description of the book says, for years,
Katie Baker wore the mask of a woman who had
it all together. On the surface, she was a successful professional,
loving mother, and the embodiment of relentless perseverance. But beneath
that carefully crafted facade, the cracks were deepening into fractures
(01:26):
too wide to ignore. Katie, Welcome to the podcast. Thanks
so much for being here. Before we going share with
our listeners where you're from originally and where you are currently.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Well, originally, as I mentioned in the book, I moved
over thirty times. So my second home state is Oregon,
but I currently reside in Idaho.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Oh Okay, I'm in Bend.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
Oh Okay. That's where I was born.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Oh wow, cool, cool, All right, so let's get in here.
How did all this start?
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Well, I was raised and suffered the impacts of childhood abuse,
really trauma. And our motto growing up was you buck up.
You just keep going. You don't look to the past,
you don't address it, you just keep going forward. And
at forty seven years old, after my youngest child was
(02:26):
eighteen years old, I really found myself lost, Like I
felt like I was losing my identity of mother, you know,
in the raising of them, and they were getting ready
to go off to college, and I think subconsciously I
sensed that I could.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
Fall apart, that my job was done.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
And so at forty seven years old, as I mentioned
in the book, my son was eighteen years old. We
were at a family reunion. Everybody had been drinking all
day for the most part, but he sat there sober
next to me after I'd had, you know, numerous drinks
and basically said, hey, mom, I can tell that you
(03:05):
are really struggling and with your childhood and the abuse that.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
You suffered from.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
I don't know how you've done it for as long
as you have, but I think you've done a phenomenal
job raising us, and it's time that you focus on.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
Yourself for a year, maybe take a year to heal yourself.
When we got your.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Back, wow, yeah, so okay, so pause there. But up
until that point, how were you holding it together?
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Uh? Maniacally? Doing everything I could to fill the hole.
And I was seeking perfection. So in terms of what
I was doing, was working too much, being overly involved
with my community. In terms of just what could I do,
what could I make how can I what can I
make better? I built a couple of nonprofits, I just overworld.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Long story.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
I married, yeah, married happily, my husband and I married,
actually my husband.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
When I was twenty one. I was kind of burnt out.
I call it.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
I jokingly referred to it as my burnout years, because
I was so exhausted from moving all the time, not
having stability. And I was married, we had two children.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
When I got.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
Pregnant with my daughter, I was like, I'm going to
break the generational cycles and patterns of trauma that have
kept our family stuck.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
And so I did that also with.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Mania cul determination, and I think hence why I fell
apart when you know, my youngest was eighteen, but really
over drinking, overeating, those were some other habits that I
did as well.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
Okay, and you mentioned at that gathering where your son
so amazingly courageously said that he knew what was going on.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
Oh yeah, yeah, Okay, So how.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Did they know? How did everyone or did everyone know?
Speaker 2 (05:01):
It was the combination of just overworking, over drinking, being
emotionally detached, like I was almost in a robotic sort
of mode, like okay, wash the dishes now, I.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Go, right, But they knew about the he knew about
the abuse.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Oh yeah, yeah, I had been really pretty about fifty
percent honest in terms of my abuse story with my children,
almost as a cautionary tale, because I was really worried
their whole upbringing, like I don't want this to happen
to them, and these are the signs that you look
for that.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
Kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
Wow, So at that gathering, your son says that what
happens after that, Well.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
It was really interesting because my son had never used
ayahuasca and so but my response to him was, well,
maybe I'll try talk therapy again. Maybe I'll go to
therapy again. And he said, Mom, I think you need
to look into other options.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
He said, you've.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Tried that, and I had tried that. I just was
always is okay and quotation marks. I was fine, how
you doing that kind of thing? And you know, I
was really talented at that I joke, and it was
really serious that I got really talented, wonderful therapists to
share their own childhood stories so that I didn't have
(06:16):
to share mine. So I was crafted at figuring out
how to navigate a conversation in terms of not having
to talk about myself. And so yeah, really, when my
son said, hey, yea, some of his friend's parents had
done ayahuasca, and so, like I said, he had never
done it himself, but he said, suggested, maybe you should
(06:37):
try something like ayahuasca, try something different.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Okay, so what do you do?
Speaker 3 (06:46):
So at first I.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Was like, no way, absolutely, no way. I was not
scared of the legal substances like alcohol, et cetera, because
those were just the beast I knew, I guess, but
I was really scared of therapeutic psychedelics, in particular. I
started reading as much literature as I could find. Michael
(07:09):
polland How to Change Your Mind. Really started exploring that,
and about six months later I decided to gently step
my toe into the water. However, I started really small
because I was so nervous. I was like, what if
I lose my mind? What am I going to look
like when this is over.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
You mentioned therapists and how you were good at kind
of a listening from them their story, so you didn't
have to talk about your own. Just a couple questions here.
Did you find any type of therapy beneficial?
Speaker 2 (07:49):
I did to a certain degree, and I was really
grateful that I worked with wonderful therapists. But mymo my
mode of operation, was really I'm fine, just you know,
can't you see I'm composed, I'm put together. I was
really talented even as a teenager growing up. That was
sort of like, I've got my stuff together, so just
(08:11):
keep looking. And for example, friends that I've been friends
with for thirty years that have read the book, where like,
I had no idea that your childhood was like that.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
So I was very good at masking.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
Was there anyone, any friend or friends that you did
share this with?
Speaker 3 (08:29):
Oh? Yeah, yeah, to a certain extent. But also I
was like.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
It.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
The abuse story was kind of it ranged the gamut
really verbal, psychological, emotional, sexual, physical, like.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
All of that. Both parents, no, no.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
No, just from stepfathers and biological father. However, I also
didn't want to tell my story to the full extent
because I thought, well, they'll think I'm making it up
or that I'm complaining and I've got so much baggage.
They'll think I'm messed up if I tell them my story.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
So how do you go about entering into the psychedelic
realm with.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
A lot of research, a lot of connections. I was
really fortunate in that I had other people in my
life that had had experience with psychedelics and were I
was able to check in with them, you know, at
the time that I wrote or I've currently written that
memoir When the Universe Holds Your Hairback. But when I
started and embarked on my journey, there wasn't much personal stories.
(09:39):
So I was looking for what are the blogs, what
are the podcasts that contain these stories in terms of
the use of therapeutic psychedelics and the healing potential of
these modalities, And it was really interesting in terms of, well,
I guess I got to write a book because people
need to know what it looks like. So I really
wanted to write the raw story for people to reference
(10:03):
and in whatever path they choose, it doesn't certainly doesn't
have to be the same as mine. But yeah, So
just I started with ayahuasca and traveled far, and you know,
they have it available in South America, South and Central America,
so traveled there and I kind of started out with
one of the more challenging I would say medicines, and
(10:26):
I didn't know that part of it. I just thought,
I guess I didn't understand how they're different, how they
work differently for different maladies that we faced.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
So we're talking about just for the benefit of our
listeners and myself. I'm not an expert, but I have
spoken with several facilitators of psychedelic therapy on this podcast.
We're talking about I mean, there are a number of
psychedelics out there, right, We're talking about ayahuasca, We're talking
(10:56):
about what ketamine.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
No, I've never used ketamine, but it was still cybin
and they.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
And DMA, right, So those are all out there. Some
are used more, some are not legal in the use
of therapy, and only only certain places did you choose?
How did you choose the place you went to?
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Well respected, well researched people that had been there, talked
to them about it prior to going, and so really
just do that's I think a really critical component and
where I was really fortunate to do my research and
make sure that it was a safe place because this
is big stuff that a lot of people are working through.
(11:46):
I was just one of mini and so I think
it's it's really critical to make sure that that that
you feel comfortable with the facilitator, the medicine, where did
the medicine come from, how long have they been practicing
all of that, and how well I.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
We held.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
Right now. My guess is, when you're going into this
for your purposes and your reasons that we can get
more clarity on that, are you thinking, Okay, I want
to go and be around other people who are working
through stuff as well, or want to go to a
place where people maybe aren't working through trauma specifically, what
(12:26):
was your thought process.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
In that well. I wrote a chapter in the book
it's called the Art of Remembering Who We Are. What
I noticed and was such a beautiful experience is that No,
people definitely struggled with trauma and different degrees or experiences
for sure, but there was a commonality that we shared
(12:48):
in terms of the desire to heal, the desire to
get better, the desire to move past this. And so
I met all different types of people. It could be
someone facing death, major illness, the loss of a child
by suicide. It really ranges like a childhood abuse. I
mean that was that had lasting scars for a lot
(13:08):
of people that I encountered.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
But yeah, it's my question.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
My question more specifically, was was it important for you
to be in a circle of people who were, you know,
working through something and maybe just people who do that
are inherently working through something I don't know.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Yeah, I think that most people that go there are
looking to better their lives. And I think it's really important,
at least for me that I was surrounded by those people,
because it ultimately gave me hope, like.
Speaker 3 (13:39):
Okay, I can do this and it's not impossible.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
This person is look at them now, you know kind
of thing, right, right?
Speaker 1 (13:46):
So, do you want to talk a little bit about
that experience and then we can get more specifically into
the book.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Yeah, yeah, so I do in the book how I
laid out the chapters, So that's a nice segue, But
is the childhood abuse and the discussion of that, and
also how it impacted me as an adult, and then
how I went to psychedelic ceremonies with a trained facilitator
to help heal from that childhood trauma. And so there
(14:17):
was so much for me to contend with that it
probably took me a few ceremonies to really sort of
start cracking open because I had this hardened shell really
around me my abuse. I was used to really protecting
my story myself all of the things, but in particular
(14:38):
with ayahuasca, that is a brew that is served to
you and it's a very internal process, so you don't
talk with anyone. You have people you know, maybe to
your left and right, but you do not speak to them.
If you need help, they come and assist you. Part
of that psychedelic ceremony in particular is.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
Not the people.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
Purge and chili, and that can be you get sick,
you vomit, and this is a way to actually remove
the things that no longer serve you. And so that
was actually part of an important part of the process too,
where I'd be like, I think I just let go
of control or shame or all those things, those really
(15:19):
beautiful and transformative and challenging experiences.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
Talk a little bit about how that process was different
from your previous therapeutic processes.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
It was a nine day difference in a way that
I had to rely on myself, that I could no
longer hide from the abuse, the shame, and the ramplifications
of those experiences on my life. In a way, the medicine,
I guess, partners with you to show you the things
that need addressed, where as a therapist may suggest things,
(15:56):
or you may talk through some things. But it allow
allowed me to see not my symptoms, which was you know,
addiction or you know, in all the mini forms working
all that thing, all the things, but also the root
of the issue. So it allowed me to go in
with an empathetic eye and actually look at the root
(16:17):
of the problem with a new pair of glasses that
I had not been previously able to do because I
was so detached from.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
Okay, get more specific, if you will, the root of
the problem. What what did you see?
Speaker 3 (16:32):
Would you well to go back?
Speaker 2 (16:34):
You know, for example, to go back, I'll pick maybe one.
But so what happened, for example, was that I went
into one of the psychedelic ceremonies and I just heard
a voice that said, do you know about that heavy
weight that you know I'd always seen like a dark
figure standing next to me, And they said, do you
(16:56):
know what that is? And I said no? And I
heard them say, that is all your pain. You carry
it around. It weighs the same amount as you and
that is your pain, your shame, and your trauma, and
you carry it on your back every single day. Would
you like to address it?
Speaker 1 (17:15):
WHOA?
Speaker 3 (17:16):
And it was?
Speaker 2 (17:16):
And you know what, the next day I thought, I
don't think I ever need to do a psychedelic ceremony again.
I'm healed, I'm so much, I'm lighter, I'm better. And
the next day I was I had already signed up,
and I went in and I heard a voice and
they said, Katie, you forgot about shame.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Oh my god.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
So that's how it's different.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
So you and prior to that, you hadn't seen that,
let alone address that. Like you said, you've just been
avoiding it to a certain degree.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
And what was happening is that, like it was I
called an emotional bankruptcy, is it felt like I was
I was taking draws that there was nothing more left
in the bank, if that makes sense.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
And so.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
I think that's why it took me a few ceremonies
to really come back into my body and recognize like,
oh my gosh, you know, like joy, love, those type
of things that I was maybe almost fearful of expressing
or feeling. It was like, oh, yeah, this is what
joy feels like. Once I remembered that or could go
(18:29):
back to that in a ceremony, then it was like, oh,
I remember what this feels like. Because when you haven't
felt that for forty plus years, it's hard to know
what you're seeking or what joy feels like what true
love feels like, gratitude for example, all of those things
that I had forgotten about.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
Let me just remind everyone i'm speaking with Katie Baker.
Her memoir When the Universe Holds Your Back is what
we're talking about today. I know it's hard to put
words to these experiences, but during your first experience, can
(19:18):
you talk a little bit about what it was like.
You mentioned a dark image where their images coming to
you that and what was it like.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
Yeah, that other ceremony that I mentioned about the dark figure,
that was probably about six months in. But the first
ceremony I went to, I was like determined that I
only wanted to be there one night is what I thought, Like,
I'm going to go in there and heal all of
this drama and one night, watch me go, I.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
Get all this other stuff done.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
I got this profusion again.
Speaker 3 (19:52):
Yeah, we know how that went. I got a big
lesson on that evening.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
But what was super interesting is I kept hearing a
voice like, let's get this done. You can do this,
like get it over with, and I recognized that was
my own voice. That's how I talked to myself. That
wasn't necessarily it was just really eye opening to not
to be like a drill sergeant essentially and just with
(20:18):
healing as well, and not view it with that empathy
that came, Thank goodness. You know. Soon thereafter, however, what
happened was I felt back to sexual abuse that I struck,
you know, that I experienced as a child, and wept
for that child. It was really interesting because I had
(20:39):
never really cried for myself as an adult. I'd cried
for other people or I was you know, if other
people were tearing up, I would tear up, but it
was not common for me to cry for myself or
express feelings in that way. And I cried for I
swear like eight hours, not an active cry, but the
tears just came out. And that is again another form
(21:01):
of purging and letting go. And I was like, oh
my gosh, is this ever gonna stop? But that night,
in particular, even though it was tough, it was a
recognition that this is going to absolutely change my life
and I have to hold on for whatever comes and
treat it with the utmost care and my help included Wow.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
And you mentioned another ceremony session that was six months in,
so this is something did you have to keep going back.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Is this out of the country, Well, this is the
type of my personality. I was like, if I'm going
to heal, then I'm going to go to a ceremony
every four to six weeks and couple it with integration
therapy and treat it like a full time job, even
though I did have a full a real full time job.
But that's how I set embarked.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
On this year of healing.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
When my son said, you know, maybe you should spend
a year on yourself that I set up a ceremony
every four to six weeks with a trained facilitator and
coupled that with yeah, integration therapy, and like took it
very seriously, and part of me was like, I have
dealt with this for forty seven years and it has
kept me stuck and in a shame spiral, and I
(22:14):
want to get it. I want to see the second
half of my life come to fruition.
Speaker 3 (22:19):
I would not.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
Recommend that for just about, you know, anybody, just because
you should really take time.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
But you know, hindsight's twenty twenty.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
And everyone's different of course too, But were you going
out of the country every four to six weeks to do.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
This yeah, I try to find like a really try
to find a location where I felt safe and comfortable,
it was legal, that kind of thing. So yeah, I
treated it seriously.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Talk a little bit about the book. How did you
get to the point where you decided I need to
write this, and I want to write this, and who's
it for?
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Yeah, So, really where the book came from is I
kept hearing in ceremony when I was in ceremony, like
a voice outside of myself say write the book. You're
meant to write the book. And I was like, oh
my gosh, I keep hearing I'm meant to write a book.
Like I've never even written a book. I don't even
(23:20):
know if I want to. But then I would go.
I coupled it with all the like intuitives and I
kind of embarked on you know, not only integration therapists,
but intuitives, and they said, I keep hearing you're meant
to write the book. So that's actually where the book
came from because I heard so many messages and I
so happened to know an author that had done really
(23:42):
well with a number of books, and I gave him
a sample and said what do you think? And he said,
I think you're meant to write the book. So I
dedicated twelve months to writing this story. It was really
important in terms of who it's for and the why
is that number one.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
I think that, for example.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
A lot of members of my family that have struggled
with abuse, that it was really important to tell my
story in particular with honesty, in terms of how abuse
in particular impacts us as an adult, how we can
find coping mechanisms, how we can stay stuck, how I
in particular stayed stuck.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
It's really about me and how I found.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
A way out in the hopes that trauma survivors would
be aware that there is potential. Like I said, I'm
not encouraging anybody by any stretch to do what I did,
but there is a light at the end of the tunnel.
And also, you know, a lot of when you go
through psilocybin or psychedelic facilitator training, they will oftentimes say,
(24:50):
if there is an abuse survivor, you need to handle
this very cautiously. You need to make sure you're an expert.
I did not read that information prior to me embarking
on this journey, and for me in particular, I'm grateful
that I didn't have that hanging over my head. So
I think it's a book for abuse survivors, for therapists,
(25:10):
for psychedelic facilitators, for people that are just curious in
terms of healing, you know, and what it took to
get there.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
As we kind of wind down here, share with us
a little bit about how it has impacted you as
an adult, because you've mentioned that a couple of times.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
Yeah, I think, well, like I said, it was just
trying to find anything I could to no whether that
was more chores, more work, responsibilities, alcohol. Yeah, I was
in that art of I mean, I was in the
constant state of doing, not ever being, because being meant
(25:50):
I was still and I would have to reflect on
how things were going. And so that's where I really
found myself at forty seven.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
So if if I kind of reflect back to you
and correct me if I'm wrong, it feels like in
a way it impacted you to the degree that it
shut off a lot of life, shut off your life
from you because you didn't want to look at it,
you didn't want to feel it. You kind of absorb
(26:22):
yourself in anything but feeling and being present in.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
A sense, absolutely yeah, it was like I was maybe
a sixteenth of the person and the potential that I
could be when I found myself at rock bottom. That's
very much what it felt like that. I'm really fortunate
that my son said those words to me at the
fire pit. I really feel like he saved my life
(26:50):
in so many ways. Because once you make it out
of that and you're living in that state of not
feeling valued, not feeling your worthiness, is feeling so much
shame from the experiences that transpired, I think once you
get out of it, like I have you see joy,
(27:10):
love worthiness, I'm not gonna hang out with shame anymore,
that kind of thing. I let go my addictions. It's
like everything changed. I lost weight.
Speaker 3 (27:20):
It was almost like I'm a totally different person.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Oh yeah, damn, your son sounds pretty amazing. I mean,
what do courageous observation? When he said that? What did
that do to you? How did you take that?
Speaker 3 (27:38):
Well?
Speaker 2 (27:39):
Initially, you know, my daughter had approached me as well,
and I wrote about that in the book. It was embarrassment, like, oh,
you know, I'm such a wreck that my own family
can see it. When I thought I was playing it
off and that nobody would know.
Speaker 3 (27:54):
But originally it was.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
Like embarrassment, and then it felt very much like my
a family discussion, like yeah, I am kind of lost,
and you're right, I need to find.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
A way out. And I love them almost.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
More than I love myself, if that can If that
makes sense, you know where I felt like initially, them
believing in me and seeing me pulled me out of
the hole so I can find self love again.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Katie Man, your story is incredible. You're incredible, and I
think you're so courageous to do what you did. I mean,
when people mentioned psychedelics, I'm like.
Speaker 4 (28:38):
I feel the way you've felt initially, I'm like, WHOA,
I've always been intrigued. I've always been definitely afraid that
I am going to like lose control. And what do
you say to people? Again, we're not promoting people go
out there and do psychedelics, but just from your experience,
what do you say to others survives out there who
(29:00):
are maybe listening to this, certainly maybe.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
Have tried talk therapy and maybe they're intrigued about psychedelics.
What do you say to them?
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Well, I think number one healing is a birthrate, and
that we I think the world's hurting right now, and
that means that individuals are also hurting, and so how
can we together as a community find our way out?
For me personally, what I noticed is because my experience
was working with farmers in regional food business centers, that's
my background, and really it's like I was trusting pharmaceuticals
(29:35):
man made products more than I was trusting Earth and
that ancient wisdom, for example. And I started to go, well,
what if Earth actually holds the key and because it's
not doesn't have a prescription label, that I don't trust it.
And that felt like a really big epiphany for me.
I do, in particular, feel like these medicines they call
(29:57):
them medicines, that they changed my life. And there's a
lot of research out there right now and discussion in
terms of living it for you know, PTSD or veterans
and or veterans, and so I think that's it's an
opportunity to at least engage in a thoughtful discussion in
(30:17):
terms of what can help us heal and find our
way out of this what can sometimes feel like abyss,
not only personally when you've had the childhood that I have,
but also in our communities where there's you know, suicide
and things that leave us questioning and if we could
potentially do more to help people, and that's I'm not
(30:39):
just referring to psychedelics, but there's got to be a
way that we can help people recover and find their
way home and get back the pieces of their soul
that they're missing.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
Katy's book again, is called When the Universe Holds Your Back.
Where can people learn more about you and your book? Yeah? Yeah,
hold it up? Yeah yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
So the book is called When the Universe Holds Your
Hair Back, and it's on all major channels, so Amazon,
it's on Audible, Spotify.
Speaker 3 (31:10):
So I did an audiobook too. I wanted to make
sure to read that.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
Yeah wow wow, awesome. All right, Katie, And we'll have
your website linked up here as well. It's called Peaceanfirehealing
dot Com. Katie, thank you so much for your courage
and your inspiration. I appreciate you being here.
Speaker 3 (31:31):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
I appreciate it. All right, We'll be in touch.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
Hey, take care bye,
Welcome to the Trauma Theaver's podcast. My name is guiming
person and I interview incredible people who share the story
of how trauma has shaped their lives. And a big
thank you for sponsoring today's episode goes to my guest
and our sponsors. So five, four, three, two and one,
(00:23):
Our folks, welcome back to the podcast. Very excited to
have us My guest today, Katie Baker, Katie welcome. Thank
you so much, You're welcome. So. Katie is writer, advocate,
and childhood abuse survivor who has transformed her journey of
trauma and healing into story of resilience, empowerment, and hope.
After years of battling addiction, shame, and the lingering effects
(00:44):
of a tumultuous childhood, she found profound transformation through therapeutic
psychedelics and deep in her work. In her memoir When
the Universe Holds Your Hairback, Katie shares her raw and
deeply personal journey, the story of confronting the past, reclaiming
lost parts of herself, and embracing a life of authenticity,
(01:04):
self love, and purpose. And just a little bit from
the description. The Amazon description of the book says, for years,
Katie Baker wore the mask of a woman who had
it all together. On the surface, she was a successful professional,
loving mother, and the embodiment of relentless perseverance. But beneath
that carefully crafted facade, the cracks were deepening into fractures
(01:26):
too wide to ignore. Katie, Welcome to the podcast. Thanks
so much for being here. Before we going share with
our listeners where you're from originally and where you are currently.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Well, originally, as I mentioned in the book, I moved
over thirty times. So my second home state is Oregon,
but I currently reside in Idaho.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Oh Okay, I'm in Bend.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
Oh Okay. That's where I was born.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Oh wow, cool, cool, All right, so let's get in here.
How did all this start?
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Well, I was raised and suffered the impacts of childhood abuse,
really trauma. And our motto growing up was you buck up.
You just keep going. You don't look to the past,
you don't address it, you just keep going forward. And
at forty seven years old, after my youngest child was
(02:26):
eighteen years old, I really found myself lost, Like I
felt like I was losing my identity of mother, you know,
in the raising of them, and they were getting ready
to go off to college, and I think subconsciously I
sensed that I could.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
Fall apart, that my job was done.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
And so at forty seven years old, as I mentioned
in the book, my son was eighteen years old. We
were at a family reunion. Everybody had been drinking all
day for the most part, but he sat there sober
next to me after I'd had, you know, numerous drinks
and basically said, hey, mom, I can tell that you
(03:05):
are really struggling and with your childhood and the abuse that.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
You suffered from.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
I don't know how you've done it for as long
as you have, but I think you've done a phenomenal
job raising us, and it's time that you focus on.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
Yourself for a year, maybe take a year to heal yourself.
When we got your.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Back, wow, yeah, so okay, so pause there. But up
until that point, how were you holding it together?
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Uh? Maniacally? Doing everything I could to fill the hole.
And I was seeking perfection. So in terms of what
I was doing, was working too much, being overly involved
with my community. In terms of just what could I do,
what could I make how can I what can I
make better? I built a couple of nonprofits, I just overworld.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Long story.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
I married, yeah, married happily, my husband and I married,
actually my husband.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
When I was twenty one. I was kind of burnt out.
I call it.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
I jokingly referred to it as my burnout years, because
I was so exhausted from moving all the time, not
having stability. And I was married, we had two children.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
When I got.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
Pregnant with my daughter, I was like, I'm going to
break the generational cycles and patterns of trauma that have
kept our family stuck.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
And so I did that also with.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Mania cul determination, and I think hence why I fell
apart when you know, my youngest was eighteen, but really
over drinking, overeating, those were some other habits that I
did as well.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
Okay, and you mentioned at that gathering where your son
so amazingly courageously said that he knew what was going on.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
Oh yeah, yeah, Okay, So how.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Did they know? How did everyone or did everyone know?
Speaker 2 (05:01):
It was the combination of just overworking, over drinking, being
emotionally detached, like I was almost in a robotic sort
of mode, like okay, wash the dishes now, I.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Go, right, But they knew about the he knew about
the abuse.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Oh yeah, yeah, I had been really pretty about fifty
percent honest in terms of my abuse story with my children,
almost as a cautionary tale, because I was really worried
their whole upbringing, like I don't want this to happen
to them, and these are the signs that you look
for that.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
Kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
Wow, So at that gathering, your son says that what
happens after that, Well.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
It was really interesting because my son had never used
ayahuasca and so but my response to him was, well,
maybe I'll try talk therapy again. Maybe I'll go to
therapy again. And he said, Mom, I think you need
to look into other options.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
He said, you've.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Tried that, and I had tried that. I just was
always is okay and quotation marks. I was fine, how
you doing that kind of thing? And you know, I
was really talented at that I joke, and it was
really serious that I got really talented, wonderful therapists to
share their own childhood stories so that I didn't have
(06:16):
to share mine. So I was crafted at figuring out
how to navigate a conversation in terms of not having
to talk about myself. And so yeah, really, when my
son said, hey, yea, some of his friend's parents had
done ayahuasca, and so, like I said, he had never
done it himself, but he said, suggested, maybe you should
(06:37):
try something like ayahuasca, try something different.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Okay, so what do you do?
Speaker 3 (06:46):
So at first I.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Was like, no way, absolutely, no way. I was not
scared of the legal substances like alcohol, et cetera, because
those were just the beast I knew, I guess, but
I was really scared of therapeutic psychedelics, in particular. I
started reading as much literature as I could find. Michael
(07:09):
polland How to Change Your Mind. Really started exploring that,
and about six months later I decided to gently step
my toe into the water. However, I started really small
because I was so nervous. I was like, what if
I lose my mind? What am I going to look
like when this is over.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
You mentioned therapists and how you were good at kind
of a listening from them their story, so you didn't
have to talk about your own. Just a couple questions here.
Did you find any type of therapy beneficial?
Speaker 2 (07:49):
I did to a certain degree, and I was really
grateful that I worked with wonderful therapists. But mymo my
mode of operation, was really I'm fine, just you know,
can't you see I'm composed, I'm put together. I was
really talented even as a teenager growing up. That was
sort of like, I've got my stuff together, so just
(08:11):
keep looking. And for example, friends that I've been friends
with for thirty years that have read the book, where like,
I had no idea that your childhood was like that.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
So I was very good at masking.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
Was there anyone, any friend or friends that you did
share this with?
Speaker 3 (08:29):
Oh? Yeah, yeah, to a certain extent. But also I
was like.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
It.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
The abuse story was kind of it ranged the gamut
really verbal, psychological, emotional, sexual, physical, like.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
All of that. Both parents, no, no.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
No, just from stepfathers and biological father. However, I also
didn't want to tell my story to the full extent
because I thought, well, they'll think I'm making it up
or that I'm complaining and I've got so much baggage.
They'll think I'm messed up if I tell them my story.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
So how do you go about entering into the psychedelic
realm with.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
A lot of research, a lot of connections. I was
really fortunate in that I had other people in my
life that had had experience with psychedelics and were I
was able to check in with them, you know, at
the time that I wrote or I've currently written that
memoir When the Universe Holds Your Hairback. But when I
started and embarked on my journey, there wasn't much personal stories.
(09:39):
So I was looking for what are the blogs, what
are the podcasts that contain these stories in terms of
the use of therapeutic psychedelics and the healing potential of
these modalities, And it was really interesting in terms of, well,
I guess I got to write a book because people
need to know what it looks like. So I really
wanted to write the raw story for people to reference
(10:03):
and in whatever path they choose, it doesn't certainly doesn't
have to be the same as mine. But yeah, So
just I started with ayahuasca and traveled far, and you know,
they have it available in South America, South and Central America,
so traveled there and I kind of started out with
one of the more challenging I would say medicines, and
(10:26):
I didn't know that part of it. I just thought,
I guess I didn't understand how they're different, how they
work differently for different maladies that we faced.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
So we're talking about just for the benefit of our
listeners and myself. I'm not an expert, but I have
spoken with several facilitators of psychedelic therapy on this podcast.
We're talking about I mean, there are a number of
psychedelics out there, right, We're talking about ayahuasca, We're talking
(10:56):
about what ketamine.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
No, I've never used ketamine, but it was still cybin
and they.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
And DMA, right, So those are all out there. Some
are used more, some are not legal in the use
of therapy, and only only certain places did you choose?
How did you choose the place you went to?
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Well respected, well researched people that had been there, talked
to them about it prior to going, and so really
just do that's I think a really critical component and
where I was really fortunate to do my research and
make sure that it was a safe place because this
is big stuff that a lot of people are working through.
(11:46):
I was just one of mini and so I think
it's it's really critical to make sure that that that
you feel comfortable with the facilitator, the medicine, where did
the medicine come from, how long have they been practicing
all of that, and how well I.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
We held.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
Right now. My guess is, when you're going into this
for your purposes and your reasons that we can get
more clarity on that, are you thinking, Okay, I want
to go and be around other people who are working
through stuff as well, or want to go to a
place where people maybe aren't working through trauma specifically, what
(12:26):
was your thought process.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
In that well. I wrote a chapter in the book
it's called the Art of Remembering Who We Are. What
I noticed and was such a beautiful experience is that No,
people definitely struggled with trauma and different degrees or experiences
for sure, but there was a commonality that we shared
(12:48):
in terms of the desire to heal, the desire to
get better, the desire to move past this. And so
I met all different types of people. It could be
someone facing death, major illness, the loss of a child
by suicide. It really ranges like a childhood abuse. I
mean that was that had lasting scars for a lot
(13:08):
of people that I encountered.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
But yeah, it's my question.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
My question more specifically, was was it important for you
to be in a circle of people who were, you know,
working through something and maybe just people who do that
are inherently working through something I don't know.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Yeah, I think that most people that go there are
looking to better their lives. And I think it's really important,
at least for me that I was surrounded by those people,
because it ultimately gave me hope, like.
Speaker 3 (13:39):
Okay, I can do this and it's not impossible.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
This person is look at them now, you know kind
of thing, right, right?
Speaker 1 (13:46):
So, do you want to talk a little bit about
that experience and then we can get more specifically into
the book.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Yeah, yeah, so I do in the book how I
laid out the chapters, So that's a nice segue, But
is the childhood abuse and the discussion of that, and
also how it impacted me as an adult, and then
how I went to psychedelic ceremonies with a trained facilitator
to help heal from that childhood trauma. And so there
(14:17):
was so much for me to contend with that it
probably took me a few ceremonies to really sort of
start cracking open because I had this hardened shell really
around me my abuse. I was used to really protecting
my story myself all of the things, but in particular
(14:38):
with ayahuasca, that is a brew that is served to
you and it's a very internal process, so you don't
talk with anyone. You have people you know, maybe to
your left and right, but you do not speak to them.
If you need help, they come and assist you. Part
of that psychedelic ceremony in particular is.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
Not the people.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
Purge and chili, and that can be you get sick,
you vomit, and this is a way to actually remove
the things that no longer serve you. And so that
was actually part of an important part of the process too,
where I'd be like, I think I just let go
of control or shame or all those things, those really
(15:19):
beautiful and transformative and challenging experiences.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
Talk a little bit about how that process was different
from your previous therapeutic processes.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
It was a nine day difference in a way that
I had to rely on myself, that I could no
longer hide from the abuse, the shame, and the ramplifications
of those experiences on my life. In a way, the medicine,
I guess, partners with you to show you the things
that need addressed, where as a therapist may suggest things,
(15:56):
or you may talk through some things. But it allow
allowed me to see not my symptoms, which was you know,
addiction or you know, in all the mini forms working
all that thing, all the things, but also the root
of the issue. So it allowed me to go in
with an empathetic eye and actually look at the root
(16:17):
of the problem with a new pair of glasses that
I had not been previously able to do because I
was so detached from.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
Okay, get more specific, if you will, the root of
the problem. What what did you see?
Speaker 3 (16:32):
Would you well to go back?
Speaker 2 (16:34):
You know, for example, to go back, I'll pick maybe one.
But so what happened, for example, was that I went
into one of the psychedelic ceremonies and I just heard
a voice that said, do you know about that heavy
weight that you know I'd always seen like a dark
figure standing next to me, And they said, do you
(16:56):
know what that is? And I said no? And I
heard them say, that is all your pain. You carry
it around. It weighs the same amount as you and
that is your pain, your shame, and your trauma, and
you carry it on your back every single day. Would
you like to address it?
Speaker 1 (17:15):
WHOA?
Speaker 3 (17:16):
And it was?
Speaker 2 (17:16):
And you know what, the next day I thought, I
don't think I ever need to do a psychedelic ceremony again.
I'm healed, I'm so much, I'm lighter, I'm better. And
the next day I was I had already signed up,
and I went in and I heard a voice and
they said, Katie, you forgot about shame.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Oh my god.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
So that's how it's different.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
So you and prior to that, you hadn't seen that,
let alone address that. Like you said, you've just been
avoiding it to a certain degree.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
And what was happening is that, like it was I
called an emotional bankruptcy, is it felt like I was
I was taking draws that there was nothing more left
in the bank, if that makes sense.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
And so.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
I think that's why it took me a few ceremonies
to really come back into my body and recognize like,
oh my gosh, you know, like joy, love, those type
of things that I was maybe almost fearful of expressing
or feeling. It was like, oh, yeah, this is what
joy feels like. Once I remembered that or could go
(18:29):
back to that in a ceremony, then it was like, oh,
I remember what this feels like. Because when you haven't
felt that for forty plus years, it's hard to know
what you're seeking or what joy feels like what true
love feels like, gratitude for example, all of those things
that I had forgotten about.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
Let me just remind everyone i'm speaking with Katie Baker.
Her memoir When the Universe Holds Your Back is what
we're talking about today. I know it's hard to put
words to these experiences, but during your first experience, can
(19:18):
you talk a little bit about what it was like.
You mentioned a dark image where their images coming to
you that and what was it like.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
Yeah, that other ceremony that I mentioned about the dark figure,
that was probably about six months in. But the first
ceremony I went to, I was like determined that I
only wanted to be there one night is what I thought, Like,
I'm going to go in there and heal all of
this drama and one night, watch me go, I.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
Get all this other stuff done.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
I got this profusion again.
Speaker 3 (19:52):
Yeah, we know how that went. I got a big
lesson on that evening.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
But what was super interesting is I kept hearing a
voice like, let's get this done. You can do this,
like get it over with, and I recognized that was
my own voice. That's how I talked to myself. That
wasn't necessarily it was just really eye opening to not
to be like a drill sergeant essentially and just with
(20:18):
healing as well, and not view it with that empathy
that came, Thank goodness. You know. Soon thereafter, however, what
happened was I felt back to sexual abuse that I struck,
you know, that I experienced as a child, and wept
for that child. It was really interesting because I had
(20:39):
never really cried for myself as an adult. I'd cried
for other people or I was you know, if other
people were tearing up, I would tear up, but it
was not common for me to cry for myself or
express feelings in that way. And I cried for I
swear like eight hours, not an active cry, but the
tears just came out. And that is again another form
(21:01):
of purging and letting go. And I was like, oh
my gosh, is this ever gonna stop? But that night,
in particular, even though it was tough, it was a
recognition that this is going to absolutely change my life
and I have to hold on for whatever comes and
treat it with the utmost care and my help included Wow.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
And you mentioned another ceremony session that was six months in,
so this is something did you have to keep going back.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Is this out of the country, Well, this is the
type of my personality. I was like, if I'm going
to heal, then I'm going to go to a ceremony
every four to six weeks and couple it with integration
therapy and treat it like a full time job, even
though I did have a full a real full time job.
But that's how I set embarked.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
On this year of healing.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
When my son said, you know, maybe you should spend
a year on yourself that I set up a ceremony
every four to six weeks with a trained facilitator and
coupled that with yeah, integration therapy, and like took it
very seriously, and part of me was like, I have
dealt with this for forty seven years and it has
kept me stuck and in a shame spiral, and I
(22:14):
want to get it. I want to see the second
half of my life come to fruition.
Speaker 3 (22:19):
I would not.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
Recommend that for just about, you know, anybody, just because
you should really take time.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
But you know, hindsight's twenty twenty.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
And everyone's different of course too, But were you going
out of the country every four to six weeks to do.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
This yeah, I try to find like a really try
to find a location where I felt safe and comfortable,
it was legal, that kind of thing. So yeah, I
treated it seriously.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Talk a little bit about the book. How did you
get to the point where you decided I need to
write this, and I want to write this, and who's
it for?
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Yeah, So, really where the book came from is I
kept hearing in ceremony when I was in ceremony, like
a voice outside of myself say write the book. You're
meant to write the book. And I was like, oh
my gosh, I keep hearing I'm meant to write a book.
Like I've never even written a book. I don't even
(23:20):
know if I want to. But then I would go.
I coupled it with all the like intuitives and I
kind of embarked on you know, not only integration therapists,
but intuitives, and they said, I keep hearing you're meant
to write the book. So that's actually where the book
came from because I heard so many messages and I
so happened to know an author that had done really
(23:42):
well with a number of books, and I gave him
a sample and said what do you think? And he said,
I think you're meant to write the book. So I
dedicated twelve months to writing this story. It was really
important in terms of who it's for and the why
is that number one.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
I think that, for example.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
A lot of members of my family that have struggled
with abuse, that it was really important to tell my
story in particular with honesty, in terms of how abuse
in particular impacts us as an adult, how we can
find coping mechanisms, how we can stay stuck, how I
in particular stayed stuck.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
It's really about me and how I found.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
A way out in the hopes that trauma survivors would
be aware that there is potential. Like I said, I'm
not encouraging anybody by any stretch to do what I did,
but there is a light at the end of the tunnel.
And also, you know, a lot of when you go
through psilocybin or psychedelic facilitator training, they will oftentimes say,
(24:50):
if there is an abuse survivor, you need to handle
this very cautiously. You need to make sure you're an expert.
I did not read that information prior to me embarking
on this journey, and for me in particular, I'm grateful
that I didn't have that hanging over my head. So
I think it's a book for abuse survivors, for therapists,
(25:10):
for psychedelic facilitators, for people that are just curious in
terms of healing, you know, and what it took to
get there.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
As we kind of wind down here, share with us
a little bit about how it has impacted you as
an adult, because you've mentioned that a couple of times.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
Yeah, I think, well, like I said, it was just
trying to find anything I could to no whether that
was more chores, more work, responsibilities, alcohol. Yeah, I was
in that art of I mean, I was in the
constant state of doing, not ever being, because being meant
(25:50):
I was still and I would have to reflect on
how things were going. And so that's where I really
found myself at forty seven.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
So if if I kind of reflect back to you
and correct me if I'm wrong, it feels like in
a way it impacted you to the degree that it
shut off a lot of life, shut off your life
from you because you didn't want to look at it,
you didn't want to feel it. You kind of absorb
(26:22):
yourself in anything but feeling and being present in.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
A sense, absolutely yeah, it was like I was maybe
a sixteenth of the person and the potential that I
could be when I found myself at rock bottom. That's
very much what it felt like that. I'm really fortunate
that my son said those words to me at the
fire pit. I really feel like he saved my life
(26:50):
in so many ways. Because once you make it out
of that and you're living in that state of not
feeling valued, not feeling your worthiness, is feeling so much
shame from the experiences that transpired, I think once you
get out of it, like I have you see joy,
(27:10):
love worthiness, I'm not gonna hang out with shame anymore,
that kind of thing. I let go my addictions. It's
like everything changed. I lost weight.
Speaker 3 (27:20):
It was almost like I'm a totally different person.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Oh yeah, damn, your son sounds pretty amazing. I mean,
what do courageous observation? When he said that? What did
that do to you? How did you take that?
Speaker 3 (27:38):
Well?
Speaker 2 (27:39):
Initially, you know, my daughter had approached me as well,
and I wrote about that in the book. It was embarrassment, like, oh,
you know, I'm such a wreck that my own family
can see it. When I thought I was playing it
off and that nobody would know.
Speaker 3 (27:54):
But originally it was.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
Like embarrassment, and then it felt very much like my
a family discussion, like yeah, I am kind of lost,
and you're right, I need to find.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
A way out. And I love them almost.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
More than I love myself, if that can If that
makes sense, you know where I felt like initially, them
believing in me and seeing me pulled me out of
the hole so I can find self love again.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Katie Man, your story is incredible. You're incredible, and I
think you're so courageous to do what you did. I mean,
when people mentioned psychedelics, I'm like.
Speaker 4 (28:38):
I feel the way you've felt initially, I'm like, WHOA,
I've always been intrigued. I've always been definitely afraid that
I am going to like lose control. And what do
you say to people? Again, we're not promoting people go
out there and do psychedelics, but just from your experience,
what do you say to others survives out there who
(29:00):
are maybe listening to this, certainly maybe.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
Have tried talk therapy and maybe they're intrigued about psychedelics.
What do you say to them?
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Well, I think number one healing is a birthrate, and
that we I think the world's hurting right now, and
that means that individuals are also hurting, and so how
can we together as a community find our way out?
For me personally, what I noticed is because my experience
was working with farmers in regional food business centers, that's
my background, and really it's like I was trusting pharmaceuticals
(29:35):
man made products more than I was trusting Earth and
that ancient wisdom, for example. And I started to go, well,
what if Earth actually holds the key and because it's
not doesn't have a prescription label, that I don't trust it.
And that felt like a really big epiphany for me.
I do, in particular, feel like these medicines they call
(29:57):
them medicines, that they changed my life. And there's a
lot of research out there right now and discussion in
terms of living it for you know, PTSD or veterans
and or veterans, and so I think that's it's an
opportunity to at least engage in a thoughtful discussion in
(30:17):
terms of what can help us heal and find our
way out of this what can sometimes feel like abyss,
not only personally when you've had the childhood that I have,
but also in our communities where there's you know, suicide
and things that leave us questioning and if we could
potentially do more to help people, and that's I'm not
(30:39):
just referring to psychedelics, but there's got to be a
way that we can help people recover and find their
way home and get back the pieces of their soul
that they're missing.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
Katy's book again, is called When the Universe Holds Your Back.
Where can people learn more about you and your book? Yeah? Yeah,
hold it up? Yeah yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
So the book is called When the Universe Holds Your
Hair Back, and it's on all major channels, so Amazon,
it's on Audible, Spotify.
Speaker 3 (31:10):
So I did an audiobook too. I wanted to make
sure to read that.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
Yeah wow wow, awesome. All right, Katie, And we'll have
your website linked up here as well. It's called Peaceanfirehealing
dot Com. Katie, thank you so much for your courage
and your inspiration. I appreciate you being here.
Speaker 3 (31:31):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
I appreciate it. All right, We'll be in touch.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
Hey, take care bye,
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